[00:01.600 --> 00:12.920]  April 9th from 2 to 5 p.m., join WBAI for a teach-in and fundraising event at the Community Church, located at 40 East 35th Street between Lexington and Park Avenues.
[00:13.100 --> 00:27.920]  The teach-in, focusing on the trial of Amadou Diallo and the rise of police brutality in New York City, will feature Richie Perez of the National Congress of Puerto Rican Rights, Iris Baez, mother of Anthony Baez, Ron Daniels of the Center for Constitutional Rights,
[00:27.920 --> 00:36.040]  Fanny Burroughs, Congressmember Major Owens, Naya Durinde of the Daily Challenge, and representatives from Youth Force, among many others.
[00:36.240 --> 00:41.620]  That's Sunday, April 9th at the Community Church, 40 East 35th Street from 2 to 5 p.m.
[00:41.720 --> 00:45.580]  For more information, call 212-209-2827.
[00:45.860 --> 00:48.900]  That's 212-209-2827.
[00:49.200 --> 00:52.980]  Spin him to a wall and the word of the lady's son.
[00:54.980 --> 00:57.400]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
[00:57.560 --> 00:59.180]  It's 8 o'clock time for Off the Hook.
[01:05.990 --> 01:28.050]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bundle-le-bomb for the best, expect the worst I hope that's understood Bundle-le-bo!
[02:21.890 --> 02:23.910]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:23.910 --> 02:36.290]  The program is Off the Hook, and we're coming your way We're coming your way every Tuesday night at this time And we have We have the theme starting all over again.
[02:36.330 --> 02:36.850]  Isn't that nice?
[02:37.210 --> 02:38.130]  Well, how about that?
[02:38.930 --> 02:40.490]  So good we had to play it twice.
[02:40.490 --> 02:43.370]  Well, actually, our machines are all messed up, so I'm going to turn it off.
[02:44.670 --> 02:45.310]  Well, uh...
[02:45.310 --> 02:46.510]  Isaac's on the other side of the room.
[02:46.550 --> 02:46.830]  How are you doing?
[02:47.050 --> 02:47.390]  Oh, right.
[02:47.470 --> 02:47.730]  So yourself?
[02:48.110 --> 02:49.830]  Oh, it's been... it's been a crazy week.
[02:49.890 --> 02:50.750]  It really has been crazy.
[02:50.930 --> 02:56.710]  And just to give you an idea, we have Kevin Mitnick, who's going to be joining us This show, and we'll be taking phone calls.
[02:56.810 --> 03:00.950]  So, I would imagine that it probably would be in people's interest if they wanted to take a...
[03:00.950 --> 03:03.790]  Ask a question of Kevin to start calling now.
[03:03.930 --> 03:12.110]  Because from what I understand, at least locally anyway, from what I understand, the phone does not hang up if you let it ring 5,000 times.
[03:12.270 --> 03:17.470]  However, if you're calling from, you know, some other part of the country or some other part of the world, it does time out.
[03:17.690 --> 03:19.910]  And that's just the nature of the phone system.
[03:20.010 --> 03:24.350]  So people in New York will have a distinct advantage in that regard.
[03:24.350 --> 03:29.450]  So if you're calling from a local area, yeah, you can keep ringing forever and it won't hang up.
[03:29.450 --> 03:33.050]  So, 212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[03:33.210 --> 03:40.390]  So, please give a chance to the other people listening, though, people listening in other parts of the world, as well as we are broadcasting over Real Audio.
[03:40.830 --> 03:43.210]  And Kevin will be joining us in just a couple of moments.
[03:43.270 --> 03:49.450]  But first, we have some really important updates to start with.
[03:50.510 --> 03:54.010]  Really bizarre situation unfolding down in Philadelphia.
[03:54.010 --> 04:01.930]  I'm not sure if people have been reading the website, but Bernie, as it seems, is being targeted once again by the Secret Service.
[04:02.370 --> 04:07.030]  It's really unbelievable how many times these people will harass him.
[04:07.130 --> 04:11.030]  But apparently what happened, this was shortly after last week's show.
[04:11.210 --> 04:12.170]  We heard about this.
[04:12.250 --> 04:16.150]  As you might have known, Bernie was sick last week and had not gone to work.
[04:16.230 --> 04:23.930]  It seems one of the days that he was not at work, the Secret Service went to his place of work and started asking questions about him.
[04:24.010 --> 04:26.630]  Once again, all over again, as if they don't know everything there is to know about him.
[04:27.010 --> 04:28.270]  They went there to find out.
[04:28.330 --> 04:29.810]  Maybe they lost their records or something.
[04:30.010 --> 04:32.050]  They went to his work and started asking questions.
[04:33.290 --> 04:35.630]  And it was really kind of strange.
[04:35.870 --> 04:40.770]  Bernie found out about this the next day that they had actually been there asking about him.
[04:41.390 --> 04:45.170]  And so he did the one thing that they never would expect you to do.
[04:45.450 --> 04:46.330]  You know what that is?
[04:46.810 --> 04:47.350]  Called them?
[04:47.350 --> 04:48.390]  Yeah, he called them.
[04:48.490 --> 04:49.850]  He called the Secret Service.
[04:51.470 --> 04:53.150]  And they don't get called very often.
[04:53.290 --> 04:54.610]  They're not all that popular, but...
[04:54.610 --> 04:56.270]  Well, they are the Secret Service.
[04:56.270 --> 04:58.390]  Yeah, I don't think their number is even listed.
[04:58.910 --> 05:02.150]  But he called them and basically asked what they wanted.
[05:02.290 --> 05:02.770]  You know, what do you want?
[05:02.790 --> 05:03.350]  What do you want with me?
[05:03.390 --> 05:04.370]  Why are you coming to my work?
[05:04.770 --> 05:05.570]  What do you want to know?
[05:06.310 --> 05:09.710]  And they said, well, we need to talk to you.
[05:09.770 --> 05:10.970]  Actually, no, they didn't even say that at first.
[05:10.970 --> 05:20.550]  They said that they couldn't talk to him because they were so freaked out that he was actually calling them that they said they couldn't talk to him.
[05:21.190 --> 05:23.870]  Then about 10 minutes later, they called him back.
[05:24.750 --> 05:25.870]  When they got prepared.
[05:26.090 --> 05:31.830]  Yeah, when they got the script together, they called him back and said, well, yeah, we need to talk to you.
[05:31.910 --> 05:34.310]  We need to talk to you at your house at 7 in the morning tomorrow.
[05:35.330 --> 05:37.570]  And Bernie was like, well, here's the thing, okay?
[05:37.570 --> 05:38.730]  I'm sick.
[05:40.170 --> 05:40.790]  7 a.m.
[05:40.890 --> 05:42.090]  is a very early time for me.
[05:42.250 --> 05:45.210]  And plus, I'm not really sure I want you anywhere near my house.
[05:46.470 --> 05:50.930]  And basically, after going around in circles for a little while, they suggested a different time of 6 a.m.
[05:51.390 --> 05:52.730]  They just didn't seem to get it.
[05:53.850 --> 05:55.330]  That went on for a while longer.
[05:55.630 --> 05:58.250]  He offered to meet them at all different places.
[05:58.250 --> 06:02.830]  At a diner, at their office, at their home, in a bus, you know, wherever.
[06:03.030 --> 06:05.830]  Wherever they want, you know, any other place except his house.
[06:05.830 --> 06:13.990]  Keep in mind, Bernie asks if somebody who has had the Secret Service abuse him quite severely and practically destroy his life.
[06:14.610 --> 06:16.750]  Not the kind of people you'd want to invite in.
[06:18.270 --> 06:23.190]  After a while, the agent got all flustered and said he had to go and couldn't talk to him anymore.
[06:24.050 --> 06:25.190]  So he hung up.
[06:25.230 --> 06:27.510]  Ten minutes later, the phone rings, and it's another agent.
[06:27.730 --> 06:29.770]  Someone who's obviously higher up on the chain.
[06:30.050 --> 06:31.390]  Sounds a lot more polished.
[06:31.390 --> 06:46.530]  And this guy says, yes, Mr. Bernie, or whatever it is they chose to call him, we need to get into your house in order to inspect your wires to see if your telephone and your cable TV are hooked up properly.
[06:49.450 --> 06:49.890]  Sure.
[06:50.330 --> 06:50.610]  Yeah.
[06:50.950 --> 06:58.850]  I mean, these guys, I don't know if they watch, like, you know, Hanna-Barbera cartoons to get ideas on how to convince people to do things.
[06:58.850 --> 07:00.330]  But they're not really the best.
[07:01.610 --> 07:04.430]  It's pretty easy to see when they're just, like, lying through their teeth.
[07:05.470 --> 07:05.830]  So...
[07:05.830 --> 07:06.610]  Well, look at it this way.
[07:06.790 --> 07:10.790]  They were probably going to do it for free, whereas the phone company would charge you, you know, 50 bucks.
[07:10.790 --> 07:11.430]  Well, here's the thing.
[07:11.590 --> 07:20.130]  Bernie suggested, after he finished laughing about this, he suggested that they go and get someone from...
[07:20.130 --> 07:23.070]  Or he'd actually go and get someone from the cable company and from the phone company.
[07:23.170 --> 07:25.930]  It's a funny thing, because he doesn't even have, you know, a wired phone in his house.
[07:26.190 --> 07:28.630]  So that's kind of a situation right there.
[07:28.850 --> 07:38.130]  But, you know, he'd get somebody from Bell Atlantic and from the cable company to go there and inspect it and report back to them and tell them if there was anything untoward about the connection.
[07:38.650 --> 07:40.110]  No, no, that wasn't acceptable.
[07:40.230 --> 07:45.570]  They had to come there themselves, without the cable company, without the phone company, to inspect his wiring.
[07:45.730 --> 07:49.350]  And basically, at that point, he just told them to speak to his lawyer.
[07:49.990 --> 07:54.570]  And that's pretty much where it has stood since last week.
[07:55.890 --> 08:13.650]  I do know that when his lawyer contacted them yesterday, and this is where it gets really kind of bizarre and creepy, they told the lawyer that the agent that Bernie had been talking to did not work for them, had not worked in that office for months.
[08:15.210 --> 08:22.010]  Yeah, so you have phantom agents, apparently, going and harassing people at their place of work.
[08:22.330 --> 08:25.930]  And then when they're called on it, they say, Hey, that agent doesn't work for us.
[08:26.210 --> 08:27.530]  What in the world is going on here?
[08:27.610 --> 08:28.510]  Agent Smith?
[08:28.690 --> 08:31.450]  Well, I know we have no Agent Smith at our establishment.
[08:31.590 --> 08:33.930]  It's a very bizarre and scary story.
[08:34.010 --> 08:37.030]  However, we have had news of it up on our website.
[08:37.370 --> 08:39.190]  A lot of people are following this now.
[08:39.290 --> 08:40.090]  A lot of people are watching this.
[08:40.150 --> 08:42.170]  I don't think they know how to deal with publicity like that.
[08:43.250 --> 08:45.250]  And, you know, as somebody...
[08:45.250 --> 08:46.750]  We've gotten a bunch of letters about this.
[08:46.810 --> 08:48.110]  I just want to read one of them really quickly.
[08:48.830 --> 08:52.150]  On the question of why, why this is happening...
[08:52.150 --> 08:53.050]  I could tell you why.
[08:53.050 --> 08:56.250]  Well, this person, I think, did a better job than anything you could ever say.
[08:56.390 --> 08:56.670]  Sure.
[08:56.850 --> 08:57.810]  But let's listen to this.
[08:58.290 --> 08:58.650]  Why?
[08:58.830 --> 09:05.110]  So he will get sad, depressed, and be more vulnerable to urges, like getting revenge or just having fun the old way.
[09:05.990 --> 09:13.870]  Also, it doesn't look good when folks with as much support as Bernie seem to get by after having a run-in with the Secret Service.
[09:14.290 --> 09:17.730]  You know, you see, they aren't really happy unless they have destroyed you.
[09:18.170 --> 09:20.810]  To them, anything else is a fish that got away.
[09:21.870 --> 09:29.550]  Oh, by the way, they get him fired by simply showing up and having his employer wonder if he should keep Bernie on the job with the Secret Service inquiring about him.
[09:30.110 --> 09:36.090]  All that stuff about getting inside his house was a bunch of crap meant to confuse him into thinking they had other motives.
[09:36.670 --> 09:37.250]  Signed, Jeff.
[09:37.450 --> 09:39.070]  And I think Jeff got it right on the nose there.
[09:39.310 --> 09:40.510]  Oh, sure he did.
[09:40.750 --> 09:40.950]  Yeah.
[09:41.730 --> 09:43.910]  Did Jeff listen to the show two weeks ago?
[09:44.730 --> 09:45.710]  Which one are you referring to?
[09:45.790 --> 09:46.370]  You're referring to where...
[09:46.370 --> 09:49.570]  The one where Bernie was walking around the Secret Service little convention.
[09:49.570 --> 09:50.490]  Yeah, yeah.
[09:50.830 --> 09:53.970]  So that's not the bear sticking his hand into the beehive?
[09:54.350 --> 09:57.590]  Well, it certainly might have gotten their attention.
[09:57.710 --> 09:59.490]  But the thing is, it was...
[09:59.490 --> 10:01.510]  I mean, are you saying he did something wrong by doing that?
[10:01.570 --> 10:02.050]  There's a hotel.
[10:02.570 --> 10:13.670]  I'm sure it was a hotel, but I'm saying that, you know, walking around a place where the Secret Service is having a meeting, and they know who you are, they're probably going to go say, Hey, how you doing?
[10:13.770 --> 10:14.350]  What's going on?
[10:14.350 --> 10:17.930]  Because it was in a public hotel that was available.
[10:18.110 --> 10:21.210]  Anybody could walk past the concierge and get there.
[10:21.570 --> 10:23.570]  And it was all broadcast live.
[10:23.750 --> 10:26.370]  So, I mean, there's nothing secretive going on here.
[10:26.650 --> 10:27.070]  Understood.
[10:27.070 --> 10:37.130]  But what have we established was one of the main reasons that Bernie served some serious time the first time, where he made the Secret Service look like a bunch of idiots for picking their nose.
[10:37.270 --> 10:37.430]  Mm-hmm.
[10:37.970 --> 10:42.450]  Which is kind of funny, but, you know, he made the Secret Service look like a bunch of idiots for picking their nose.
[10:42.570 --> 10:47.930]  So the right thing for him to do is submit and never bother them again, and not even...
[10:47.930 --> 10:48.650]  No, it's not the right...
[10:48.650 --> 10:49.590]  It's not submitting.
[10:49.610 --> 10:58.530]  It's just like saying, Well, gee, if I continually bother these people, perhaps they will react in some way, much as a mosquito...
[10:58.530 --> 11:02.350]  You know, as someone would react to a mosquito constantly plucking into someone's dog.
[11:02.350 --> 11:03.810]  Yeah, except I don't see him bothering them.
[11:03.810 --> 11:04.630]  His mere presence.
[11:05.050 --> 11:06.690]  Is that enough to bother them?
[11:06.770 --> 11:07.390]  His mere presence?
[11:07.710 --> 11:09.390]  Hey, I'm not the Secret Service.
[11:09.590 --> 11:11.050]  Maybe it is enough to bother them.
[11:11.050 --> 11:13.310]  Well, then they need to be bothered a whole lot.
[11:13.810 --> 11:17.330]  Okay, but expect that there will be consequences.
[11:17.570 --> 11:19.070]  Yeah, and there will be consequences.
[11:19.270 --> 11:20.350]  Basically, on this order.
[11:20.350 --> 11:22.850]  If innocent people are harassed, there will also be consequences.
[11:23.090 --> 11:25.090]  It's a lot different than it was five years ago.
[11:25.170 --> 11:28.250]  And by the way, this happened five years ago to the day that he got arrested.
[11:28.470 --> 11:31.450]  It's a lot different because, A, Bernie has a lot of support now.
[11:31.450 --> 11:32.270]  He has a lawyer.
[11:32.770 --> 11:37.670]  He has absolutely nothing going on that they could get him for except simply existing.
[11:38.130 --> 11:43.470]  except simply being someplace they don't want him to be, that he's perfectly allowed, perfectly entitled to be.
[11:44.010 --> 11:44.950]  You know, it's...
[11:44.950 --> 11:47.550]  And they have the eyes of the world watching them now.
[11:47.630 --> 11:49.090]  So really, the ball is in their court.
[11:49.290 --> 11:51.570]  We just have to see where it goes from this point.
[11:51.730 --> 11:55.470]  But it's an interesting story, something that we're really going to have to follow in future weeks.
[11:55.550 --> 11:58.510]  We don't have time this week because we have a special show today.
[11:58.690 --> 12:03.590]  But we're not finished yet because we also have another intriguing bit of news.
[12:03.730 --> 12:05.470]  Mackie joins us on the phone from California.
[12:05.470 --> 12:06.110]  Mackie, are you there?
[12:06.110 --> 12:06.670]  Hi there.
[12:06.850 --> 12:07.390]  How are you doing?
[12:07.870 --> 12:11.750]  We had some legal developments this week, which would mean yesterday.
[12:12.030 --> 12:12.110]  Uh-oh.
[12:12.530 --> 12:14.290]  Yeah, some rather interesting legal developments.
[12:14.410 --> 12:15.790]  Do you want to keep us abreast of that?
[12:15.930 --> 12:17.810]  Yeah, that was pretty cool, actually.
[12:17.970 --> 12:32.630]  After we got completely shut out at the first hearing, the EFF was able to retain as a really good First Amendment and intellectual property lawyer here in New York in the name of Martin Garbus of Frankfurt Garbus Klein & Sells.
[12:33.250 --> 12:38.450]  And so he was there representing us on Monday when we had a hearing.
[12:39.290 --> 12:53.210]  And the MPAA wanted to win by default at the hearing, but he argued and we got a trial date set for December 5th, which is a lot more time than they would have given us otherwise.
[12:53.210 --> 13:01.910]  So, yeah, DECSS case will be preparing basically the rest of the year and then a trial will start.
[13:04.190 --> 13:11.290]  So right now where we're at is really trying to get a lot of publicity out while we prepare for the trial.
[13:12.130 --> 13:14.590]  And so we got bumper stickers on the way.
[13:15.030 --> 13:20.550]  Stop the MPAA and the Academy Awards are this Sunday.
[13:21.170 --> 13:24.850]  So hopefully we'll get a bunch of those out if people are in the L.A.
[13:24.950 --> 13:26.290]  area and want to help out.
[13:26.970 --> 13:30.150]  There are flyers still on the 2600 site.
[13:30.790 --> 13:32.090]  A few people go leaflet in.
[13:32.670 --> 13:32.990]  Mm-hmm.
[13:32.990 --> 13:36.350]  And then the battle continues.
[13:36.750 --> 13:39.350]  The DMCA, we've been doing the...
[13:39.850 --> 13:51.230]  The Library of Congress had a commenting period which is ongoing and a lot of people wrote in and told them what they think of it and that'll be getting decided in October.
[13:51.910 --> 13:57.770]  And meanwhile, there's been another DMCA-related lawsuit brewing from Mattel.
[13:58.470 --> 14:02.310]  Mattel, the same toy manufacturer, publishes Cyber Patrol.
[14:02.990 --> 14:04.910]  which is filtering software.
[14:05.990 --> 14:16.690]  And a group came out with a utility called CPHack which decrypts their list of blocked sites so everyone can see now just what they're blocking with the filtering software.
[14:16.870 --> 14:20.770]  And this included all sorts of things that shouldn't have been blocked.
[14:21.930 --> 14:30.710]  Educational sites, you know, breast cancer sites, things that they had classified as pornographic or illegal material which just really wasn't.
[14:32.530 --> 14:43.830]  And Mattel is suing people who distributed the software claiming, oh, well, it circumvents, you know, it circumvents our copy protection because our list of blocked sites is proprietary.
[14:44.510 --> 14:49.470]  Well, how are you supposed to run this software if you can't tell what you're blocking?
[14:49.670 --> 14:58.330]  You know, how can you decide if it's good software which apparently it isn't at some obscene error rate when they went through and just checked sites?
[14:59.370 --> 15:02.390]  So they're doing basically the same thing that the MPAA is doing to us.
[15:02.510 --> 15:15.510]  they took a cue from the MPAA in a lot of their behavior here because they're like suing everyone on the internet basically with no regard for geographic boundaries or legal jurisdictions.
[15:15.910 --> 15:25.130]  In fact, some of the same overseas defendants in the DECSS case have received cease and desist letters in the Mattel case for posting...
[15:25.130 --> 15:33.450]  Mac, I have to cut you off because Kevin's getting impatient and he just called me out in fact and wants to get going with the show and I'm sure that the rest of us want to as well.
[15:33.790 --> 15:36.590]  Give out the URL real quick and we'll be following this in weeks ahead as well.
[15:36.750 --> 15:40.970]  www.peacefire.com has all the information on sensorware.
[15:41.170 --> 15:54.030]  Okay, but that's pretty good news about the legal developments this week and of course we'll be keeping people abreast of that as it unfolds in the weeks and months ahead we're going to fight this thing till the end.
[15:54.190 --> 15:55.050]  We'll be right back with Kevin.
[16:08.650 --> 16:18.430]  Casper lives in a world without promise Sitting at home in his pajamas Just wishing it would all go away somehow
[16:21.720 --> 16:37.820]  He walked by but he never saw it He could have been a famous guitarist He must have not have had a clue Feeling like a bowl of spaghetti.
[16:37.960 --> 16:41.100]  Not knowing what to get.
[16:46.040 --> 16:49.060]  He's the one with hope in his soul.
[16:49.660 --> 16:52.140]  Can't let him slip through the hole.
[16:52.640 --> 16:56.380]  He might just go away and never return.
[16:58.840 --> 17:01.780]  He's hanging on a whim in a prayer.
[17:02.300 --> 17:05.100]  So glad to see him there.
[17:05.520 --> 17:09.640]  Maybe he'll make it someday, someway.
[17:11.820 --> 17:14.840]  Going past the expected.
[17:15.380 --> 17:18.340]  Maybe he'll get what he wants.
[17:20.080 --> 17:20.760]  Yeah.
[17:23.500 --> 17:26.580]  Good golly, it's getting moldy.
[17:26.940 --> 17:29.460]  Got to move on, but oh no.
[17:30.280 --> 17:31.720]  People said no one.
[17:32.060 --> 17:33.880]  Maybe perhaps he cried.
[17:36.580 --> 17:39.620]  There's a fear of feeling at night.
[17:39.900 --> 17:42.800]  Something may turn out of sight.
[17:43.400 --> 17:47.340]  But you never really know.
[17:49.740 --> 17:52.660]  Thinking only may be his might.
[17:53.140 --> 17:56.260]  Things may turn out right.
[17:57.600 --> 17:58.600]  Yeah.
[18:15.530 --> 18:24.110]  And as we're pushing all the buttons and getting everything all set to go, Kevin is joining us in just a moment or two.
[18:24.390 --> 18:28.910]  We're going to take this moment to briefly show off the new Stop the MPAA bumper stickers.
[18:29.570 --> 18:30.310]  Yeah, it's radio.
[18:30.450 --> 18:33.410]  We can't really do it very well, but they're very nice, aren't they?
[18:33.410 --> 18:37.970]  The O is the MPAA symbol.
[18:38.710 --> 18:39.650]  You don't say.
[18:39.770 --> 18:40.290]  You know, you're right.
[18:40.370 --> 18:43.770]  If you turn it sideways, it looks just like the MPAA symbol.
[18:43.910 --> 18:45.190]  I never noticed that.
[18:45.810 --> 18:46.830]  I never noticed that.
[18:47.090 --> 18:47.570]  How about that?
[18:47.570 --> 18:48.290]  It's a remarkable coincidence.
[18:48.510 --> 18:49.530]  It is a remarkable coincidence.
[18:49.890 --> 18:50.730]  That's something.
[18:50.810 --> 19:00.270]  Well, you're going to be seeing these, not replacing the Freak Heaven stickers in various places that you might see the Freak Heaven stickers, but adding to them, because it's not like the battle ever ends.
[19:00.290 --> 19:02.510]  The battle simply continues into other forums.
[19:03.170 --> 19:04.210]  It's a different color, too.
[19:04.730 --> 19:08.550]  Yeah, it's a slightly different kind of school bush, orange thing.
[19:08.670 --> 19:13.270]  And we also have H2K stickers that have just come out, too, which are also fun for the whole family.
[19:13.790 --> 19:19.870]  Yep, Hackers on Planet Earth taking place July 14th through 16th, 2000, Hotel Pennsylvania in New York.
[19:20.370 --> 19:26.530]  And that's going to be a real hubbub of activity, the way everything is looking right now.
[19:27.230 --> 19:28.230]  So, do you want one?
[19:28.610 --> 19:28.970]  Oh, yeah.
[19:28.970 --> 19:30.130]  I'll have one.
[19:31.090 --> 19:32.250]  Take an MPAA, too.
[19:32.770 --> 19:32.930]  Ooh.
[19:33.570 --> 19:34.850]  All right, let's see if Kevin's with us.
[19:34.870 --> 19:35.370]  Kevin, are you there?
[19:35.670 --> 19:36.190]  I'm here.
[19:36.450 --> 19:37.430]  Hey, Kevin.
[19:37.810 --> 19:38.650]  Okay, okay.
[19:38.850 --> 19:40.870]  And it was really good seeing you in New York.
[19:41.170 --> 19:42.390]  Yeah, I had a great time.
[19:42.650 --> 19:44.370]  I'm looking forward to coming back.
[19:44.550 --> 19:46.190]  Yeah, well, we're looking forward to having you back.
[19:46.190 --> 19:52.170]  And I know a lot of people were really thrilled to see you at the 2600 meeting, especially when no one had any idea you'd be there.
[19:52.350 --> 19:57.430]  It all of a sudden popped in as a result of that court TV appearance and the congressional testimony.
[19:58.690 --> 20:00.670]  What's been you since the last time we talked?
[20:01.150 --> 20:02.250]  Well, a couple of things.
[20:02.430 --> 20:02.930]  It was just...
[20:02.930 --> 20:06.110]  And by the way, it was my first 2600 meeting, I believe.
[20:06.290 --> 20:06.550]  Wow.
[20:06.810 --> 20:07.070]  Cool.
[20:07.070 --> 20:07.830]  Yeah, I think it was.
[20:08.170 --> 20:10.190]  So, it was definitely...
[20:10.190 --> 20:11.390]  I had a great time.
[20:11.510 --> 20:12.470]  I enjoyed meeting everybody.
[20:12.470 --> 20:16.730]  And, well, a few things are new.
[20:18.050 --> 20:29.590]  I found out recently that the Computer Museum History Center is going to have a lecture called the Early...
[20:29.590 --> 20:31.270]  It's on Early Computer Crime.
[20:31.430 --> 20:35.070]  And who the speakers are going to be is Whitfield Diffie.
[20:35.330 --> 20:36.810]  I don't know how to pronounce his name.
[20:36.810 --> 20:39.430]  I think it's Diffie with Sun Microsystems.
[20:39.530 --> 20:41.370]  Peter Newman with SRI International.
[20:41.650 --> 20:48.090]  And Cliff Stoll, the guy that everybody knows, the Cuckoos that came out with that bestseller book.
[20:48.430 --> 21:00.670]  And more importantly, I learned that John Markoff, the guy who libeled me on the front pages of the New York Times, is doing a talk and it's titled, Kevin and Me.
[21:01.810 --> 21:18.290]  So, when I found out about this, I wanted to go attend the lecture so I'd have an opportunity to ask, you know, Mr. Markoff to, you know, reveal his sources of these, you know, claims he made about me or, you know, or have a retraction printed.
[21:18.950 --> 21:27.510]  And I tried to get permission through the, through my probation, well, I asked my, well, I just assumed that the probation department was going to allow me to go.
[21:28.030 --> 21:31.210]  And so I booked a flight and was making arrangements.
[21:31.210 --> 21:39.390]  And then I checked with my probation officer, because since I'm on supervised release, going up to Mountain View from Los Angeles, I have to get permission.
[21:39.830 --> 21:45.190]  And what ended up happening is the probation department declined to allow me to travel up there to attend.
[21:45.570 --> 22:05.990]  But it took an, I just learned, you know, within the last hour, it just took an interesting twist because the, one of the, I guess, individuals that's part of this history center or part of booking the attendees at the conference, what it is, it's apparently it's on Moffett Field and,
[22:06.270 --> 22:08.830]  which is part of NASA Ames Research Center.
[22:08.990 --> 22:20.170]  So what you have to do is you have to RSVP and they put you on a list and you have to be a US citizen to be able to attend the lecture because I guess it's on a military base or it's considered on federal property.
[22:20.350 --> 22:36.110]  So anyway, I just found out from my attorney's office that an individual called, you know, wanting to find out whether or not it was the real Kevin Mitnick that wanted to attend this conference and mentioned that, you know, she would be happy to, you know,
[22:36.110 --> 22:39.070]  have me attend, that they would basically be thrilled.
[22:39.130 --> 22:48.190]  But on the other hand, that she was calling to advise that NASA has refused to allow me on their property to attend the conference.
[22:48.190 --> 22:52.330]  So this I found out after I was declined by the probation department.
[22:52.330 --> 23:03.330]  So it's interesting that NASA would decline to allow me, a US citizen, on their property to attend a lecture which is largely about me.
[23:03.530 --> 23:17.490]  So it was quite disappointing that I won't have the opportunity to go up to participate in being able to, you know, get to the bottom of some of the reports that were made about me years ago.
[23:17.610 --> 23:24.830]  Well, Kevin, while you may not be allowed to go there, and it's hardly unfair that you're not, a lot of other people will be allowed to go there.
[23:24.950 --> 23:28.010]  Maybe you could give the exact details and what they need to do to get there.
[23:28.010 --> 23:35.810]  Well, what I have here is I have somebody faxed me the information that was on the net.
[23:35.970 --> 23:43.690]  And apparently, to attend, I'm looking on here, I'm looking for the contact name.
[23:45.450 --> 23:58.570]  What I have is I have a telephone number, but it looks like the person's name here is Dag Spicer, who's the manager of historical collections at the Computer Museum History Center.
[23:58.690 --> 24:04.610]  And I have a phone number of area code 650-604-2578.
[24:04.870 --> 24:08.110]  But I don't believe that was the person I contacted.
[24:08.230 --> 24:16.810]  The person that actually contacted my lawyer's office was a lady named Karen Matthews, and her number is 650-604-2568.
[24:17.070 --> 24:19.130]  So maybe she's the one... Oh, here it is.
[24:19.190 --> 24:19.530]  I'm sorry.
[24:19.710 --> 24:27.630]  It's Wendy Ann Francis at area code 650-604-2579.
[24:27.930 --> 24:31.830]  But they need the RSVP by Monday, March 20th, which was yesterday.
[24:32.230 --> 24:32.370]  Uh-oh.
[24:32.530 --> 24:43.450]  So I'm not sure that the permit, you know, maybe they have to check, you know, check the person out before they allow him, you know, onto the, onto Moffitt Field.
[24:43.650 --> 24:47.130]  But that's the person to contact, Wendy Ann Francis, I guess.
[24:47.350 --> 24:47.370]  Okay.
[24:47.410 --> 24:52.630]  Well, I believe we've had a few people already get to that stage where they're going to be attending.
[24:52.870 --> 24:58.270]  So there'll be some kind of representation of your side at this thing.
[24:58.370 --> 25:00.770]  And we'll find out exactly what is said.
[25:00.930 --> 25:02.810]  We'll report back on that, uh, next week.
[25:02.910 --> 25:04.990]  But again, it's taking place this Thursday.
[25:05.190 --> 25:05.770]  Do you have a time?
[25:06.550 --> 25:06.850]  Oh, yeah.
[25:06.990 --> 25:08.230]  It's Thursday, 6 p.m.
[25:08.310 --> 25:11.790]  And it's at the auditorium building 201 at Moffitt Field.
[25:12.150 --> 25:20.730]  And it's just, you know, just disappointing that I'm not, you know, able to defend myself, you know, even though I'm, I'm out, you know, I'm, you know, the, the U.S.
[25:21.130 --> 25:26.550]  government and NASA is, uh, you know, prohibiting me from doing so.
[25:26.750 --> 25:32.370]  So it's just, uh, so I guess I have to rely on my, uh, support network to try to do it for me.
[25:32.490 --> 25:33.090]  That's amazing.
[25:33.190 --> 25:38.390]  And I, I think what we should do in the days ahead is contact the person at NASA that made that decision and get a reason.
[25:38.890 --> 25:40.370]  And I think that's what we'll be pursuing.
[25:40.550 --> 25:41.070]  Well, what about...
[25:41.070 --> 25:43.330]  My, my, my requests are, you know, are pretty simple.
[25:43.570 --> 25:59.470]  You know, what my requests are is, you know, the sources be revealed or, you know, or the evidence put forward on these claims made and if, and if the evidence isn't there or the sources aren't revealed to simply, you know, have the, uh, New York Times retract the false claims made about me.
[25:59.590 --> 26:01.970]  And, you know, I think it's a, it's a reasonable request.
[26:02.530 --> 26:08.830]  And, uh, that's, you know, what I was hoping to at least start emotions, uh, you know, towards that end.
[26:08.950 --> 26:10.030]  I think Isaac's trying to say something.
[26:10.170 --> 26:10.170]  Yeah.
[26:10.190 --> 26:14.930]  So what about the possibility of a, uh, a teleconference or some kind of a speaker phone set up?
[26:15.470 --> 26:17.590]  Would they be, would they entertain that or...?
[26:17.590 --> 26:19.450]  No, it wasn't where I was going to speak.
[26:19.670 --> 26:24.770]  It was just, I assumed, you know, when the speakers spoke that they would have a Q and A section.
[26:25.010 --> 26:25.170]  Right.
[26:25.170 --> 26:25.970]  A Q and A...
[26:25.970 --> 26:27.290]  Oh, you just wanted to sit in.
[26:27.310 --> 26:28.070]  A Q and A afterwards.
[26:28.350 --> 26:28.990]  Yeah, he had a pretty good queue.
[26:29.010 --> 26:30.890]  I was planning on going up to the microphone.
[26:31.070 --> 26:31.270]  Yeah.
[26:32.050 --> 26:35.310]  And, uh, and, you know, using that as an opportunity to ask questions.
[26:35.670 --> 26:44.230]  I find it interesting that, you know, you're, you have no trouble confronting the issue here and Markov is doing everything possible to avoid any kind of confrontation.
[26:44.850 --> 26:49.610]  And it's funny because he's always complaining about how he's never gotten the, the ability to talk to you.
[26:49.670 --> 26:51.430]  Well, here, here's the ability right here.
[26:51.570 --> 26:56.510]  You're willing to confront him face to face and, and NASA stepping in and protecting him from you.
[26:56.630 --> 27:11.550]  Well, what he's, what, what I believe his concern, or at least one of his many concerns is, is, um, once it's exposed, what, what he's done and there's, you know, no defense, it, it, it kind of uh, uh, might affect his credibility, you know, in a sense.
[27:11.790 --> 27:15.210]  Uh, so, you know, that's, you know, that's probably why he's backpedaling.
[27:15.330 --> 27:24.370]  But whatever, you know, I don't know the reasons, you know, he knows his reasons, but, uh, you know, I'll just have to uh, wait, you know, uh, at a time in the future when, when it could be done.
[27:24.990 --> 27:28.890]  Unfortunately, you know, in three years after my supervised release has expired.
[27:28.890 --> 27:35.590]  You know, where I can, you know, where I'm free to go anywhere that I choose, it might be a little bit too late.
[27:35.750 --> 27:41.370]  You know, I was kind of hoping to, you know, start the process as soon as possible.
[27:43.290 --> 27:43.690]  Okay.
[27:43.690 --> 27:48.870]  Some other news that might be of interest to some people, and I'm sure it's exciting you.
[27:48.970 --> 27:49.570]  No end, Kevin.
[27:49.710 --> 27:52.430]  The film Takedown actually has been released in France.
[27:52.950 --> 27:53.550]  I know.
[27:53.730 --> 27:56.710]  I guess they're afraid to release it here, but they released it over there.
[27:56.710 --> 27:57.890]  It's got a different title.
[27:58.050 --> 28:00.850]  It's called Cybertrack, spelled with a Q.
[28:01.510 --> 28:04.510]  I believe they have a website called Cybertrack.com.
[28:04.590 --> 28:05.090]  Yeah, spelled...
[28:05.090 --> 28:09.550]  But unless you're fluent in French, I don't think you're going to, you know, understand it.
[28:09.750 --> 28:12.630]  Ah, but that's what Babelfish.Altavista.com is for.
[28:12.650 --> 28:13.830]  Yeah, well, we'll see what a good job it does.
[28:14.130 --> 28:15.170]  Babelfish, whatever, yeah.
[28:15.810 --> 28:19.010]  Cybertrack is spelled C-Y-B-E-R-T-R-A-Q-U-E.
[28:19.210 --> 28:25.470]  And just put a www in front of that and a .com at the end of that, and you should see everything that they have to say about this film, which...
[28:25.470 --> 28:30.250]  Well, I hope that the French population does a smart thing and saves their money.
[28:30.670 --> 28:38.090]  Well, I think they are, because the site only had about 3,000 hits when I looked at it, and that's not very many, considering it's supposedly been up since before the 15th.
[28:38.110 --> 28:42.370]  It says coming on the 15th of March, and here it is, you know, what, the 21st now.
[28:42.370 --> 28:45.870]  And from what my sources have told me that there's also a...
[28:45.870 --> 28:54.570]  I think there was a computer conference or a computer security conference or something that was happening, you know, simultaneously with the release of the movie.
[28:55.310 --> 29:04.330]  But I think what they're doing is they're testing it in the foreign market to see how well it does, and depending on the results there, they'll decide, you know, what they're going to do in the U.S.
[29:04.450 --> 29:13.510]  From my understanding is they plan on releasing it to television and not, you know, a feature film or a video.
[29:13.770 --> 29:25.190]  But, so you can probably figure out the quality of the movie, you know, by their choice of how they're going to distribute it.
[29:25.190 --> 29:36.910]  Yeah, it seems kind of strange that they would go far away to test it out on a foreign crowd that really probably isn't as involved in the story before they figure out what they're going to do here in the place where...
[29:36.910 --> 29:41.630]  Yeah, but, yeah, and I don't know, you know, I don't know how that's going to work, but that's what I assume they're going to do.
[29:41.750 --> 29:43.430]  They're going to, you know, test it in the foreign market.
[29:43.430 --> 29:56.110]  And I don't know if France is the only foreign, you know, country that has, you know, purchased, you know, the film rights, you know, to, you know, to display the film.
[29:57.370 --> 29:59.470]  So, I'm not privy to that information.
[29:59.670 --> 30:03.190]  So, but hopefully we'll find out as it happens.
[30:03.870 --> 30:05.150]  Okay, let's a note to our listeners.
[30:05.310 --> 30:06.990]  We're going to start taking phone calls in a minute or two.
[30:07.270 --> 30:09.110]  212-209-2900.
[30:09.330 --> 30:12.530]  There are some open lines, so feel free to give us a call.
[30:12.530 --> 30:31.330]  Yeah, there's another thing I wanted to mention, and I, obviously, since I can't use the Internet, and I've heard that on the mailing list that you set up, you know, through 2,600, that some people have commented that I'm selling out because I, you know,
[30:31.450 --> 30:37.470]  I agreed to go to the Senate to testify on how they can better protect their computers.
[30:37.470 --> 30:47.230]  And I was kind of disappointed that people, at least some people would take that position that I'm selling out because I don't consider it selling out.
[30:47.230 --> 31:08.490]  But first of all, before I agreed to go to Washington, D.C., I specifically asked the person that I was talking to, I guess, their liaison or the committee person, whether or not this is to legislate or to do anything with any, you know, computer crime laws.
[31:08.490 --> 31:16.210]  In other words, in other words, in other words, in other words, in other words, in other words, to enact, you know, harsher penalties or anything that affects, you know, Title 18 of the United States Code.
[31:16.210 --> 31:31.470]  And when I was told, no, this has nothing to do with enacting any, you know, computer crime legislation or to change the penalties, but this all had to do with, you know, how the government could simply protect their own information that resides on their computers.
[31:32.870 --> 31:52.370]  And they were interested in my commentary on their rules and regulations that the Senate was, I guess, considering adopting, that, you know, since that, you know, since that didn't, went to effect any computer crime legislation, I agreed to, you know,
[31:52.410 --> 31:59.590]  go to Washington and, you know, present, you know, the best information or the best information that I had possible to help them.
[31:59.590 --> 32:08.230]  And I don't, and I don't, considering selling out, I just consider, you know, helping, you know, helping a different branch of the government where they, where they need the help.
[32:08.430 --> 32:12.470]  And it just concerns me that people would take that point of view.
[32:12.670 --> 32:19.370]  Well, you know, in all honesty, I really think that that was a very, very slim margin of people that thought, thought that way.
[32:19.430 --> 32:22.450]  I mean, I was, I was very surprised to hear anybody felt that at all.
[32:23.610 --> 32:31.350]  If, if, if you had seen the testimony, you would see that, uh, the, the information you were giving was, was certainly helpful to everybody to understand.
[32:31.690 --> 32:32.210]  It was common sense, you know.
[32:32.310 --> 32:34.010]  It's the kind of thing we would print in the magazine.
[32:34.170 --> 32:39.110]  It's just, you know, it's, we claim to want to spread information and share things.
[32:39.230 --> 32:41.510]  That's exactly what you did, except your forum was a little different.
[32:41.670 --> 32:42.370]  You were in front of the Senate.
[32:42.890 --> 32:48.390]  And, uh, I would hope that people, given that opportunity, wouldn't blow it and would actually try to enlighten people.
[32:48.510 --> 32:51.610]  And, you know, if, if, if, if they refused to listen, well, at least you tried.
[32:51.610 --> 32:53.450]  Right, you know, it was simply education.
[32:53.450 --> 33:00.910]  And I thought, you know, I could help, you know, at least, you know, the government, uh, protect their information, whether, whether or not it resides on a computer.
[33:01.110 --> 33:20.310]  So I wanted to offer my experience and, uh, and, and, and advise them in the best way that I can, even though, ironically, I'm prohibited by, you know, by the federal judge in my case, Judge Felzer, to act as an advisor or consultant to anyone engaged in any computer-related activity.
[33:20.310 --> 33:24.230]  And who in the world is not engaged in a computer-related activity?
[33:24.230 --> 33:25.030]  I don't know.
[33:25.250 --> 33:38.250]  So essentially, uh, you know, if you look at the broad interpretation of that condition, I'm just simply precluded from advising or consulting with anybody, uh, on any subject, uh, if they use a computer.
[33:38.250 --> 33:40.130]  And I think, you know, that's absurd.
[33:40.530 --> 33:51.290]  Um, and it's interesting to note, I, I did some research and I found a couple of, uh, cases, uh, do you know what, uh, Eric, do you know what a, uh, call, do you know what a call, do you know what a call selling case is?
[33:51.290 --> 34:03.090]  This is where, um, uh, you get, you know, where an individual or a group of individuals sets up a call selling operation where they used, uh, where they utilize cloned cell phones.
[34:03.210 --> 34:09.450]  And what they do is they sell time where you can call Pakistan and, and foreign countries and they're not paying the bill.
[34:09.670 --> 34:16.430]  You know, they're just cloning to the, you know, the unknowing, uh, customers, you know, telephone number and placing calls.
[34:16.430 --> 34:17.450]  And they're charging for it.
[34:17.810 --> 34:22.290]  And a couple of these, uh, call cell operations, you know, were busted by the secret service.
[34:22.510 --> 34:39.650]  And it was interesting to note that those individuals in those cases, why, why they did receive, you know, a short term of imprisonment, I believe, you know, less than 18 months, uh, none of the, uh, suspects were, uh, given the condition of supervised release where they couldn't use a cell phone.
[34:39.650 --> 34:58.290]  And I thought that's really interesting because in my case, um, uh, my case was really to do with computers and using a cell, cellular phone as a tool to avoid detection rather than, you know, using it, you know, uh, as, as, as, rather than the cell phone being the target of the fraud.
[34:58.290 --> 35:12.610]  So I thought it was interesting that, uh, um, that in my case, I'd be precluded from using a cell phone or possessing one yet where somebody is actually profiting off, you know, cellular phone fraud that they're allowed to use a cell phone.
[35:12.730 --> 35:21.030]  I see it as a recurring theme in the prosecutions we followed over the years that the less malicious people get hit with these things all the more.
[35:21.030 --> 35:32.990]  And the people that are really out there making a profit and, and really committing genuine crimes, they really just walk away from it or, or they're given a very, uh, minor penalty in comparison to what, what people like you get.
[35:33.310 --> 35:34.250]  Yeah, it's interesting.
[35:34.250 --> 35:42.250]  So I guess what the message the federal government is sending, if you're, if you're going to commit computer hacking activity, you might as well do it for profit and we'll punish you less.
[35:42.370 --> 35:49.670]  But if you do it for, uh, for the intellectual challenge and the quest for knowledge, well, we're going to, we're going to really come down hard on you, you know?
[35:49.670 --> 35:51.790]  So that's a, that's a weird message for them.
[35:51.830 --> 35:52.610]  It's a weird message.
[35:52.750 --> 35:56.330]  And I hope nobody, uh, nobody follows that because that's going to be a real tragedy.
[35:56.650 --> 35:57.290]  No, of course.
[35:57.430 --> 35:58.730]  A lot of really smart people out there.
[35:58.810 --> 35:58.910]  I wouldn't encourage it at all.
[35:59.130 --> 35:59.770]  You know, a lot of...
[35:59.770 --> 36:08.630]  That's where, that's where you're crossing, in my opinion, from hacking to, you know, to, you know, criminal, you know, just using a tool to commit, a computer as a tool to commit a crime.
[36:08.810 --> 36:09.010]  Right.
[36:09.310 --> 36:09.510]  Okay.
[36:09.650 --> 36:12.950]  A lot of people have been waiting patiently, so, uh, we're going to go to the phones and...
[36:12.950 --> 36:15.010]  Do I get to choose, like, caller number seven?
[36:15.110 --> 36:16.290]  They get to win a Porsche or something?
[36:16.390 --> 36:16.970]  Well, let me...
[36:18.470 --> 36:19.650]  Maybe, maybe that's not such a good idea.
[36:20.410 --> 36:22.330]  Hang on, I'm calling in to line seven.
[36:22.690 --> 36:27.730]  I, I guarantee you, though, that no matter what number you choose, eventually we'll get somebody we're trying to avoid.
[36:28.250 --> 36:31.130]  Uh, but just, uh, a word to the people calling in.
[36:31.290 --> 36:32.770]  Let's, uh, keep the questions short.
[36:32.870 --> 36:33.950]  Let's not have any speeches.
[36:34.330 --> 36:37.670]  And, uh, please don't call more than once because there's a lot of people trying to get through.
[36:37.850 --> 36:39.090]  We have Kevin Mitnick on the line.
[36:39.090 --> 36:40.230]  Please ask your question.
[36:40.550 --> 36:43.230]  And, uh, hopefully, uh, Kevin will have an answer for you.
[36:43.350 --> 36:44.010]  I'll try to.
[36:44.050 --> 36:47.690]  Some questions I might not be able to answer or I'll decline, but I'll do, I'll do my best.
[36:47.830 --> 36:48.090]  Okay.
[36:48.250 --> 36:49.310]  Let's, uh, let's give it a shot.
[36:50.430 --> 36:50.990]  Good evening.
[36:51.170 --> 36:51.870]  You're on off the hook.
[36:53.050 --> 36:53.750]  Yeah, hi, Kevin.
[36:54.110 --> 36:54.610]  See what I mean?
[36:55.070 --> 36:56.250]  Okay, make it fast.
[36:56.530 --> 36:56.770]  All right.
[36:57.010 --> 36:59.550]  Uh, before I make it fast, I just want to give out my email address.
[36:59.870 --> 37:03.330]  See, now that's, that's, that's called blowing it right there.
[37:03.330 --> 37:03.810]  All right.
[37:03.950 --> 37:06.390]  And, and let me just point out to that person, do not call again.
[37:07.190 --> 37:08.170]  Do not call again.
[37:08.470 --> 37:09.350]  We know where you are.
[37:09.550 --> 37:09.790]  All right.
[37:10.310 --> 37:10.990]  Kevin, you're still there.
[37:11.130 --> 37:11.590]  I'm here.
[37:11.670 --> 37:12.510]  I'm sorry about that.
[37:12.750 --> 37:13.770]  Let's, uh, go over here.
[37:14.130 --> 37:14.510]  Good evening.
[37:14.630 --> 37:15.170]  You're on the air.
[37:16.010 --> 37:16.370]  Hi.
[37:16.390 --> 37:29.870]  I know that you had, uh, went away when Mosaic 1 was into being, but I, I know, and I know you said that you're not allowed to interact with computers, but I, I would like to just get your impression because there's been so many changes.
[37:29.870 --> 37:35.530]  Things like Java applets and dynamic HTML and, uh, Microsoft, uh, hierarchy.
[37:36.090 --> 37:46.410]  Uh, how did, how, what was your, your first, um, reaction when, when you just saw the, the extreme changes and how computers have actually evolved in, in the past five years?
[37:46.910 --> 37:49.370]  Well, it's, it's, it's been quite overwhelming.
[37:49.590 --> 37:51.350]  In fact, I was recently at USC.
[37:52.050 --> 38:02.490]  They had a conference, uh, their online journalism, uh, well, their, their, their, the Annenberg School of Communication had a conference where they invited journalists from all around the world to attend.
[38:03.290 --> 38:11.050]  And, and it was, it was simply, like, it was just shocking to me, or, or just, I don't know if that would be the appropriate word.
[38:11.070 --> 38:12.690]  I was just, like, amazed.
[38:13.070 --> 38:19.790]  Um, because when I, when I, when I, when I was shipped off to prison, the, the internet wasn't commercial.
[38:19.790 --> 38:25.510]  You know, like, like, like you did, you were correct that Mosaic was at 1.0 and I believe Lynx, Lynx was out.
[38:25.970 --> 38:38.650]  And it's just like, everything has become the internet and it's become so important and, and, and people are, you know, exploiting the internet to, you know, in business to, you know, to, to essentially become millionaires overnight.
[38:38.870 --> 38:42.270]  And, uh, and it just, it just, everything is .com now.
[38:42.430 --> 38:43.370]  I look at billboards.
[38:43.490 --> 38:45.330]  I listen to, you know, radio ads.
[38:45.330 --> 38:55.250]  But then again, I had an AM FM Walkman in prison, so I was able to listen to, uh, the radio and I noticed, you know, a lot of ads for, you know, internet service providers.
[38:55.690 --> 39:01.570]  However, I watched, uh, I watched, I watched, I must have watched maybe 10 hours of TV for the five years I was in prison.
[39:01.570 --> 39:12.550]  So I didn't, uh, uh, really get a real sense for how, how the internet has progressed and, and, and how it's, uh, how everybody's relying on it.
[39:12.550 --> 39:15.090]  And, uh, it was just, it was just very interesting to me.
[39:15.150 --> 39:18.210]  Uh, and it was kind of like a, a culture shock.
[39:18.350 --> 39:22.830]  I mean, then again, going to the supermarket was, uh, kind of, uh, overwhelming for me too.
[39:23.350 --> 39:23.830]  Oh, okay.
[39:23.890 --> 39:24.530]  Well, thank you.
[39:24.730 --> 39:25.350]  Thanks for your call.
[39:25.630 --> 39:26.850]  Good luck in everything you do.
[39:27.090 --> 39:28.810]  Hey, thank you for your, your kind words.
[39:29.070 --> 39:29.250]  All right.
[39:29.290 --> 39:29.510]  Bye-bye.
[39:29.830 --> 39:30.250]  Take care.
[39:30.970 --> 39:33.610]  10, uh, 10 hours of TV in five years.
[39:33.750 --> 39:34.290]  That's pretty good.
[39:34.450 --> 39:52.590]  Yeah, I watched, uh, you know, when they showed videos, I'd watch the videos, but, uh, TV, I wasn't, uh, um, I wasn't really interested in watching the programs that, uh, you know, usually was the, um, you know, uh, certain ethnic groups controlled the TV because there were,
[39:52.670 --> 39:54.750]  you know, more of that type of group.
[39:54.750 --> 40:02.070]  And I wasn't really interested in watching rap videos and, uh, um, or listening to Spanish, you know, stations.
[40:02.090 --> 40:06.670]  And then, uh, you know, what was left is, you know, it just wasn't interesting to me.
[40:06.670 --> 40:11.630]  So when they had the news on or a news program, I'd watch it or, or, or watch videos.
[40:11.630 --> 40:15.070]  And I simply, uh, spend most of my time listening to my radio.
[40:16.090 --> 40:16.510]  Okay.
[40:16.690 --> 40:17.510]  Let's take another phone call.
[40:18.370 --> 40:18.990]  Good evening.
[40:19.110 --> 40:19.630]  You're on Off the Hook.
[40:20.210 --> 40:20.870]  Oh, hi.
[40:21.150 --> 40:26.310]  Kevin, do you feel at all vindicated after you spoke to the Senate, like they finally listened to you?
[40:27.030 --> 40:28.870]  Well, I wouldn't say I felt vindicated.
[40:28.870 --> 40:32.970]  I felt honored that they, I felt, uh, more respected.
[40:32.970 --> 40:37.930]  And I felt honored that they would value my opinion, but I didn't feel, uh, vindicated, no.
[40:38.710 --> 40:39.250]  You didn't?
[40:39.430 --> 40:39.910]  No.
[40:40.050 --> 40:42.990]  You didn't feel at all like you'd finally gotten through?
[40:42.990 --> 40:45.810]  You'd been screaming at this wall for so long?
[40:46.430 --> 40:52.370]  No, because really, they were, they, they invited me there to give them information.
[40:52.370 --> 41:03.690]  It wasn't like, you know, I, I just assume it's because they knew I had the, they hadn't, they, they, they, it's known that I have a talent for breaching security, computer security systems.
[41:03.950 --> 41:07.030]  So they just wanted to get my opinion on how to better protect themselves.
[41:07.270 --> 41:16.870]  I don't look at it as, you know, what I've been, you know, what has been important to me is how, as an individual, you know, my constitutional rights were disregarded.
[41:17.250 --> 41:21.450]  And while that, you know, if that can happen to Kevin Mitnick, it certainly could happen to you.
[41:21.450 --> 41:27.230]  And, uh, and also about the, uh, manipulation by the media, you know, and that's what was important.
[41:27.230 --> 41:32.770]  But those, uh, those issues, uh, I don't think played a part in my Senate testimony.
[41:33.270 --> 41:33.670]  Okay.
[41:34.470 --> 41:34.870]  Thanks.
[41:35.070 --> 41:35.590]  Thanks for the call.
[41:35.730 --> 41:36.310]  Oh, you're welcome.
[41:38.090 --> 41:39.570]  Let's take, uh, another phone call.
[41:39.670 --> 41:41.310]  212-209-2900.
[41:41.450 --> 41:42.490]  We're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
[41:43.170 --> 41:43.790]  Good evening.
[41:43.950 --> 41:44.450]  You're on the air.
[41:44.770 --> 41:45.610]  Hi, Kevin.
[41:45.870 --> 41:46.170]  Hi.
[41:51.450 --> 41:57.170]  There was a quote by John Markoff, and there was a letter in which they supported you guys on the DECSS case.
[41:57.570 --> 41:59.890]  And I don't get the open source community.
[41:59.890 --> 42:01.210]  How can they stand for two things?
[42:01.350 --> 42:01.930]  It's just awful.
[42:02.530 --> 42:04.110]  Uh, and one more thing.
[42:04.250 --> 42:07.210]  Why have you not filed a slander suit against this jackass?
[42:07.870 --> 42:08.990]  You mean, Markoff?
[42:09.110 --> 42:13.290]  Well, number one is, uh, is the money issue.
[42:13.570 --> 42:23.690]  You know, uh, I, I consulted an entertainment attorney, uh, that actually is well known for, uh, uh, initiating, you know, defamation suits.
[42:23.750 --> 42:27.950]  I believe they, uh, they represented Steve Wynn, Rodney Dangerfield.
[42:28.110 --> 42:31.690]  They won, they won the Carol Burnett case against the National Enquirer.
[42:31.910 --> 42:37.070]  And you're talking, you know, spending upwards of $350 to $400 per hour for representation.
[42:37.550 --> 42:42.470]  And I didn't have enough money to hire my own counsel to represent me in the criminal case.
[42:42.610 --> 42:44.410]  So I certainly didn't have the funds.
[42:44.930 --> 42:55.670]  And, and number two is, it's, it's, it's an unknown, it's unknown whether or not, well, on a defamation case, the statute of limitations is one year.
[42:55.790 --> 43:05.030]  So you have to file your case, I believe, in one year that you learn of the, of, I guess, the tort or whatever, however it's termed when you're defamed.
[43:05.030 --> 43:16.510]  Uh, but while, you know, and I, as you know, I was in prison for five years, so it's, it's unknown to me whether or not the statute of limitations was told during that period of time.
[43:16.670 --> 43:20.430]  So that's a question I need to get answered by, you know, a counselor at law.
[43:20.850 --> 43:39.610]  And lastly, um, when you're going after a media organization like the New York Times, who probably has, you know, several attorneys on retainer, um, who, you know, who could overwhelm, you know, uh, uh, an, uh, an attorney by, you know, you know, doing like the,
[43:39.750 --> 43:41.290]  you know, by papering him to death.
[43:41.410 --> 43:43.190]  So the, the cost could run out.
[43:43.370 --> 44:00.770]  So it might, uh, uh, so an attorney might think twice about representing somebody against the New York Times, but because of the First Amendment in this country, I think you, I think one of the elements that has to be proven that it was, that it was, that they acted with malice and it was deliberate.
[44:01.210 --> 44:19.970]  And it's, it's a tough thing to prove that they acted with malice and it was, and they deliberately did it to, you know, injure my reputation because I did not put the New York Times on notice prior to the publication of these articles because I had no idea that these false claims were going to be made about me.
[44:20.110 --> 44:35.150]  So when you're suing, uh, when you're a public figure for the, you know, I'm a, I'm considered a public figure for limited purposes, such as I guess, you know, the computer arena, but when you're a public figure and a news media organization, uh, you know,
[44:35.430 --> 44:47.310]  uh, again, uh, you know, either prints, uh, you know, prints false claims or libels, you, uh, you still have to, it's, it's usually they have to be on some sort of notice or they have to exercise.
[44:47.590 --> 45:06.690]  I think they only have to exercise a reasonable diligence in investigating the facts, which wasn't done because I think even, uh, when Forbes, when Adam Penenberg at Forbes did an article, uh, uh, I don't know, uh, last year, um, he contacted John Markoff to find out the source of the claim that I,
[45:06.950 --> 45:09.630]  uh, broke into NORAD when I was a teenager.
[45:09.630 --> 45:13.630]  And he just said, oh, he heard it from one of my friends, which is a BS line.
[45:13.790 --> 45:28.590]  You know, uh, I don't believe one of my friends would have told him such a thing, but you would think that any reporter or especially any fact checker at the New York Times would have called NORAD to determine whether or not that, uh, that claim was true,
[45:28.810 --> 45:29.910]  which was not done.
[45:30.250 --> 45:37.010]  But, uh, that's the reasons, you know, uh, pretty much, uh, in a nutshell of why I haven't pursued a libel suit.
[45:37.190 --> 45:48.070]  But if there's any, uh, attorneys out there that can answer the question on this, the statute of limitations, the question, and they'd be interested in taking the case on the contingency, well, I'd be interested in going forward.
[45:49.170 --> 45:49.650]  Okay.
[45:49.770 --> 45:50.270]  Thanks for the call.
[45:50.830 --> 45:51.090]  Bye.
[45:52.290 --> 45:56.210]  We're on the phone with Kevin Mitnick, 212-209-2900.
[45:56.470 --> 46:00.610]  And Kevin, I wanted to know, are you getting many, uh, many bits of mail to this day?
[46:00.850 --> 46:01.490]  Oh, yeah.
[46:01.870 --> 46:04.670]  I've, um, received numerous letters.
[46:04.690 --> 46:13.150]  I got, uh, gifts, I got CDs and videos and some phone cards, which are been very, uh, thoughtful and, uh, I, I appreciate it.
[46:13.490 --> 46:23.910]  And, uh, uh, I spoke to Carrie, you know, uh, who's my webmaster, um, on the, uh, uh, free Kevin and Kevin Mitnick.com sites.
[46:23.930 --> 46:38.610]  And I, and I mentioned, I, I asked her to, um, well, I didn't ask her to post it, but I gave her the information of, you know, of the first name of the party that, uh, what, uh, what their name was and what they sent.
[46:38.770 --> 46:45.090]  So she can, you know, um, uh, if she, if she so chose, she can post it on, on, on the website.
[46:45.210 --> 46:53.430]  See, I'm not allowed to direct anybody to access a computer, so I have to be very careful that I don't specifically ask, you know, someone to put something on some computer.
[46:53.630 --> 46:56.850]  So I have to, uh, but it should be up there pretty soon.
[46:57.010 --> 46:58.990]  In order, in order for us, here's a, here's the dilemma.
[46:59.110 --> 47:05.110]  In order for us to thank the people, Kevin has to tell us the names of the people, but, uh, you know, it's kind of like, you know...
[47:05.110 --> 47:20.730]  Because if I had to respond to each letter, then, because I get numerous letters, which are, you know, uh, which are, uh, very kind and thoughtful, and I, I would literally have to be spending maybe 10 hours a day, um, writing return letters.
[47:20.910 --> 47:34.590]  And right at this point, I'm trying to get back up, uh, back on my own two feet and, you know, trying to find, uh, gainful employment while at the same time trying to, you know, care for my father, who's, uh, still trying to, uh, you know, beat this, uh,
[47:34.670 --> 47:37.490]  staph infection that, you know, he caught while in the hospital.
[47:38.290 --> 47:44.910]  That's, that's simply unbelievable that, uh, as soon as you came out of prison, you, you pretty much had to, uh, take care of your father who just had a heart attack?
[47:45.370 --> 47:49.650]  Yeah, he had a heart attack and, uh, he ended, he ended up getting a triple bypass.
[47:50.270 --> 48:04.570]  And, uh, what happened is when, I guess during the, uh, the operation, I guess the operating room wasn't sterile or for whatever reason, uh, he caught a staph infection and the staph infection, he's been, you know, fighting for two months and, and it's,
[48:04.710 --> 48:08.150]  uh, it's, it's pretty much he's, you know, disabled in a sense.
[48:08.370 --> 48:14.330]  So he, he relies on me to, you know, to, uh, do a lot of errands and, uh, you know, help them out.
[48:14.470 --> 48:16.390]  So I'm, I'm trying to do the best I can.
[48:16.890 --> 48:18.870]  And that takes my time.
[48:19.090 --> 48:38.430]  And also, um, I've been participating in, uh, in, you know, going out to DC, going out to New York and, you know, doing interviews and at the same time trying to find how I could, you know, basically feed myself and, uh, uh, and find a position that's commensurate with the restrictions that I have to live under,
[48:38.550 --> 48:45.410]  which is, you know, very, uh, you know, as you know, they're very, uh, uh, uh, stringent conditions.
[48:45.470 --> 48:51.290]  Can you give us the address and, um, what you would like people to, uh, to send you and, and what you could use?
[48:52.470 --> 48:58.090]  Um, the address, I think, I don't know, I'm not sure off the top, off the top of my head.
[48:58.150 --> 49:06.870]  I think it's two, two, one, nine East Thousand Oaks Boulevard, uh, suite 432 or number 432.
[49:06.870 --> 49:09.350]  It's a, it's a mail drop, so it's really just a mailbox.
[49:09.730 --> 49:11.950]  And the city is Thousand Oaks, California.
[49:12.450 --> 49:16.870]  And the zip code is 91361, I believe.
[49:17.210 --> 49:21.910]  What I'd like to get is, uh, I've been getting a lot of, um, videos in the mail.
[49:22.110 --> 49:25.230]  I'd like to see Pirates of, uh, of Silicon Valley.
[49:25.510 --> 49:28.870]  Uh, that's one movie that I missed and I don't know if that's on video.
[49:29.410 --> 49:32.010]  You're going to wind up with seven copies of it now, at least.
[49:32.870 --> 49:34.990]  Yeah, I'll probably get seven copies, that's true.
[49:35.390 --> 49:36.710]  You know, that's a lot of the copies.
[49:36.710 --> 49:38.210]  But, uh, I'd like to get that.
[49:38.330 --> 49:41.590]  And the phone cards are always useful because I'm spending a lot of time on the phone.
[49:42.070 --> 49:44.090]  Yeah, explain the phone cards to us now.
[49:44.210 --> 49:47.950]  Basically, if people send you prepaid phone cards, that makes your life a lot easier, right?
[49:48.350 --> 49:49.630]  Well, it makes it easier, yeah.
[49:49.910 --> 49:58.730]  Um, you know, recently, like, uh, somebody sent me a phone card, uh, uh, that was, I guess, purchased at 7-Eleven.
[49:58.910 --> 50:03.450]  They're like the anonymous, uh, phone cards that anybody can go buy and mail.
[50:03.610 --> 50:11.050]  And that's, uh, I've been incurring a lot of phone expense, returning a lot of calls that are, you know, usually by media organizations.
[50:11.630 --> 50:15.870]  And, uh, I've been, uh, incurring a lot of expense, you know, on the telephone.
[50:16.090 --> 50:17.570]  So that, that's always very helpful.
[50:17.970 --> 50:22.390]  But, uh, you know, I also like, you know, receiving, uh, letters and postcards.
[50:22.390 --> 50:26.130]  I received, you know, uh, I receive very thoughtful letters and stuff.
[50:26.190 --> 50:27.730]  And it's, uh, just uplifting.
[50:28.490 --> 50:31.270]  Um, I do, I do receive a lot of CDs.
[50:31.530 --> 50:32.670]  And, you know, it was interesting.
[50:32.670 --> 50:36.030]  Someone sent me The Alienist, which I, I read while I was in prison.
[50:36.770 --> 50:39.650]  And, uh, uh, uh, already have had the book.
[50:39.750 --> 50:42.810]  So it was a shame that somebody, you know, spent the money to send it to me.
[50:42.910 --> 50:44.610]  It was thoughtful, but I've already read it.
[50:44.790 --> 50:50.990]  And then I sometimes get CDs that, you know, music, I mostly like classic rock or into rock, rock and roll.
[50:51.210 --> 50:56.330]  So, um, sometimes I get like CDs that are, you know, in different types of music.
[50:56.330 --> 50:58.090]  Well, we already know you don't like rap.
[50:58.230 --> 51:00.990]  So I think people should not send you rap CDs.
[51:01.570 --> 51:02.250]  Would that be one?
[51:02.350 --> 51:04.170]  Well, it's not like I don't like it.
[51:04.290 --> 51:18.090]  It's just that I wasn't, you know, uh, certain groups would imprison, you know, the, the, it's a, you know, what was amazing to me is the favorite thing people watched in there was like, uh, BET, which the, which is the black entertainment channel.
[51:18.350 --> 51:21.030]  And, uh, I guess, or black entertainment television.
[51:21.550 --> 51:29.230]  And, you know, when they'd have the, uh, music videos, but they loved cop shows, they loved America's Most Wanted and cops.
[51:29.410 --> 51:36.490]  And it's like every time I, you know, went by the TV, you know, because, and it was, you know, it was most of the time because, you know, you're in a pretty small quarters there.
[51:36.890 --> 51:39.190]  Um, they're always watching cop shows.
[51:39.330 --> 51:42.870]  I guess they're, they're, they're hoping to see some of their friends and family on TV.
[51:43.330 --> 51:43.550]  Wow.
[51:44.570 --> 51:44.970]  All right.
[51:45.010 --> 51:48.350]  Let's try and take some more, uh, phone calls in the brief time we have on the address.
[51:48.590 --> 51:53.670]  Uh, since you're not entirely sure, please check the website and I'm sure the, the address is correct there.
[51:54.050 --> 51:56.970]  And, uh, just one question, Kevin, has anyone sent you a DVD yet?
[51:57.510 --> 51:57.910]  No.
[51:58.070 --> 51:58.430]  Oh, good.
[51:58.430 --> 51:58.650]  No.
[51:58.730 --> 51:59.810]  No DVDs.
[52:00.230 --> 52:00.630]  Okay.
[52:00.730 --> 52:04.930]  Well, you don't have a DVD player, so, uh, I guess it wouldn't be very useful anyway.
[52:05.470 --> 52:05.690]  Okay.
[52:05.690 --> 52:06.490]  Let's take another phone call.
[52:06.730 --> 52:07.350]  Good evening.
[52:07.490 --> 52:08.070]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:09.070 --> 52:09.690]  Oh, yes.
[52:09.770 --> 52:09.990]  Hello.
[52:10.130 --> 52:10.530]  Good evening.
[52:10.990 --> 52:20.970]  Uh, yeah, I was curious, um, that since he was, he was in prison for so, you know, for such a long period of time and he saw what is going on in prison?
[52:21.330 --> 52:24.850]  You know, does, does he get involved in any prison issues?
[52:24.850 --> 52:36.110]  And how did the prisoners, these prisoners who like to watch cop shows and BET, how did they, uh, treat him and did they understand why he was in prison?
[52:36.270 --> 52:40.630]  You know, and did they treat him respectfully or they treat him with contempt?
[52:40.850 --> 52:45.270]  You know, how was he treated in this, uh, prison that was mostly black and Hispanic?
[52:45.270 --> 52:46.730]  It wasn't mostly black.
[52:46.950 --> 53:02.930]  It was, uh, there, uh, well, white people were the minority, but it was mostly black and Hispanic, you know, and I think it was mostly Hispanic because, uh, what, uh, uh, there was a, I don't know if it's a new federal law, but, you know, there was a law regarding illegal entry.
[53:03.090 --> 53:11.630]  So if, uh, somebody was deported and they re-entered the country without permission of the INS, it was a serious federal crime.
[53:11.630 --> 53:18.790]  So a lot of the, you know, uh, population in California when they were deported to Mexico, they'd come right back into the country and get busted.
[53:19.090 --> 53:24.350]  And they, and, and the federal courts were sentencing these guys, you know, up to eight years in prison.
[53:24.850 --> 53:42.950]  So it was, it was, again, kind of shocking to me that most of the population in there was, uh, you know, for, you know, for that type of criminal activity, just, you know, and don't forget these guys were born in, not born in, in the States, but pretty much maybe their families brought them over here when they're,
[53:42.970 --> 53:44.930]  you know, infants and they were raised here.
[53:45.150 --> 53:52.510]  And then they ended up, you know, committing some sort of crime, getting busted and deported to Mexico where they know, where they don't know anybody.
[53:52.870 --> 53:55.330]  And then they, of course, want to come back to be with their family.
[53:55.450 --> 54:01.030]  And then they get busted just for the simple, you know, uh, act of entering the country.
[54:01.190 --> 54:06.890]  And then they, they go, they send them away to prison for, you know, eight years, depending on, really depends on what crime they were deported.
[54:07.090 --> 54:08.710]  You know, they have a thing called an aggravated felony.
[54:08.970 --> 54:13.730]  But to answer To answer your question, you know, I got along with most of the inmates.
[54:13.910 --> 54:14.290]  I had problems.
[54:14.450 --> 54:17.190]  I ended up in a couple fights while I was at the MDC.
[54:19.250 --> 54:26.430]  But most of the prison, you know, most of it was, well, if you respect, you know, the other guy, he respects you.
[54:26.750 --> 54:28.230]  It wasn't like state prison.
[54:29.830 --> 54:33.010]  And did people really understand what I was in there for?
[54:33.110 --> 54:33.770]  Not really.
[54:34.050 --> 54:37.650]  You know, they understood I had a large support group.
[54:37.770 --> 54:38.210]  They knew that.
[54:38.210 --> 54:39.970]  They understood I was high profile.
[54:40.430 --> 54:48.110]  But did they really understand the issues of my case, you know, that I was, you know, held without trial and without a bail hearing for so many years?
[54:48.590 --> 54:50.190]  You know, maybe they understood that.
[54:50.290 --> 54:55.230]  But usually the other people in prison, you know, had their own problems to deal with in their own cases.
[54:55.630 --> 55:05.830]  So they were thinking about, you know, researching and trying to mitigate the damages in their own, you know, in their own case rather than really focusing on other people's cases.
[55:05.830 --> 55:08.630]  Do you think you get involved in prison issues?
[55:08.930 --> 55:27.210]  You know, when you speak about your case over, you know, while you're going throughout the country, do you tie your case in with prison issues, you know, and how prisoners are treated, how people are being held without bail, you know, without hearing?
[55:27.310 --> 55:30.330]  Because there's other people, you know, being held beside yourself.
[55:30.330 --> 55:31.230]  No, of course.
[55:31.370 --> 55:41.390]  I mean, there's people that are sitting in prison for many, many years, and they're eventually cleared by a DNA test because they're accused of some rape or accused of some violent crime, you know, other violent crime.
[55:41.570 --> 55:45.110]  And then they end up being cleared by a DNA test.
[55:45.310 --> 55:48.310]  And, you know, I think that's very egregious.
[55:48.590 --> 55:56.110]  And most of my prisoner, the prison issues, don't forget, when I was in prison, I maintained my silence with the media.
[55:56.110 --> 56:09.350]  I certainly, I wouldn't even have gone on this show off the hook, because I was very, very concerned, and I was advised by counsel, anything that I seek can and will be used against me and will be twisted by federal prosecutors.
[56:09.350 --> 56:13.750]  So I've just really begun to speak out after my release from prison.
[56:13.930 --> 56:26.370]  But while I was in prison, I was constantly fighting the Bureau of Prisons on issues that they would open my attorney-cline-privileged mail that was addressed to me, that they would censor.
[56:27.370 --> 56:38.090]  Eric, Eric, I have an email address at 2600.com, and Eric would, you know, periodically print out my electronic mail from me, and they would refuse to give it to me and claim that it was written in code.
[56:38.090 --> 57:01.690]  Well, what the code was, was, you know, when a non, when, I guess, when stuff was printed out with the HTML labels because of, you know, the MIME, you know, I guess if they send a formatted mail to a non-compliant or non-MIME-compliant client or server or whatever,
[57:02.790 --> 57:16.630]  that, as you know, it just prints the HTML tags around the message, and they claim that that was, that was in code or some secret code, so they justified censoring my mail, my electronic mail that was sent to me.
[57:16.670 --> 57:19.130]  Kevin, it was very easy to confuse them with that kind of thing.
[57:19.230 --> 57:22.190]  They would basically say anything was code if they couldn't read it right away.
[57:22.290 --> 57:43.730]  Oh, don't forget, they put me in solitary confinement because they thought that I was going to take the AMFM Walkman that they sell on the commissary and modify it into becoming a cellular... No, no, they told my attorney I was going to modify it into an FM transmitter and surreptitiously go place it in the warden's office to monitor his communications.
[57:43.830 --> 57:53.350]  But what was interesting to me is, is to get to the warden's office, I would have had to break out of the secure perimeter of the prison because his office was outside the protected, you know, trap door.
[57:53.990 --> 57:57.710]  So I can imagine that I'm going to break out of prison to plant a bug in the warden's office.
[57:57.710 --> 57:59.990]  And then break back into prison to get back to yourself.
[58:00.110 --> 58:01.070]  What about the Center for Constitutional Rights?
[58:01.310 --> 58:08.730]  Are they, you know, because from what I hear about your case, that, you know, this is like stopping you from making a living.
[58:08.730 --> 58:13.370]  I know people who are, you know, car thieves and whatnot.
[58:13.370 --> 58:16.050]  They go work for insurance companies, burglars, you know.
[58:16.270 --> 58:16.870]  It's punitive.
[58:16.870 --> 58:18.930]  What they're doing is they're being, you know...
[58:18.930 --> 58:20.090]  I'm going to cut you off like that.
[58:20.090 --> 58:26.450]  The purpose of Supervised Release is to help the guy become a law-abiding citizen and to reintegrate into society.
[58:26.630 --> 58:44.490]  But what the federal government has chosen to do in my case, and specifically, I believe, you know, was the FBI agents involved in my case and the particular federal prosecutors that prosecuted me, that they wanted to be punitive towards me and they convinced this judge.
[58:44.490 --> 58:48.950]  And I think the judge was also influenced by the inaccurate media reporting about me.
[58:49.190 --> 58:54.050]  And so they... she basically, I think, rubber-stamped these conditions that the FBI and U.S.
[58:54.310 --> 58:55.350]  Attorney's Office wanted.
[58:55.590 --> 59:07.290]  And it basically has the effect where I can't... I can't do anything in technology or even speak about it to certain degrees without them having the ability to send me back to prison.
[59:07.410 --> 59:07.950]  And you have...
[59:07.950 --> 59:08.670]  I'm sorry, Kevin.
[59:08.810 --> 59:11.210]  I really hate to leave it here, but we're totally out of time.
[59:11.370 --> 59:11.390]  Thank you very much.
[59:11.450 --> 59:12.370]  Thanks for the call.
[59:12.370 --> 59:17.970]  Well, and I think the caller raised a couple of really good points, too, about how this has educated us into the conditions in prison.
[59:18.030 --> 59:20.770]  I know I've learned a lot from your case, from the Bernie S.
[59:20.870 --> 59:23.010]  case, even from Fiber's case many years ago.
[59:24.030 --> 59:25.670]  And, Kevin, we're out of time.
[59:25.670 --> 59:27.670]  We have to have you back and answer more questions.
[59:27.850 --> 59:28.390]  I thought the call...
[59:28.390 --> 59:28.570]  Sure.
[59:28.690 --> 59:29.610]  No, I don't mind.
[59:29.610 --> 59:30.750]  I'm sorry we started late.
[59:30.950 --> 59:31.170]  Yeah.
[59:31.490 --> 59:31.650]  Yeah.
[59:31.730 --> 59:34.530]  There's so much to talk about this week, but we're going to have you back.
[59:34.730 --> 59:36.810]  And thanks to the callers for calling in.
[59:37.490 --> 59:40.310]  And thanks, Kevin, for answering all the questions.
[59:40.310 --> 59:41.650]  We'll be in touch.
[59:42.130 --> 59:43.090]  Always good to talk to you.
[59:43.130 --> 59:43.450]  Yes.
[59:43.630 --> 59:48.230]  And we'll be back again next week with updates on all the other stories that have been going on.
[59:48.730 --> 59:49.530]  So many things.
[59:49.630 --> 59:51.070]  We need two hours, three hours.
[59:51.150 --> 59:51.430]  I don't know.
[59:51.510 --> 59:56.590]  We need a lot of time to go over all the things that are going on in this particular realm that we're in.
[59:57.650 --> 01:00:01.170]  Until next week, for Isaac, for Kevin, for everybody else, it's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:00:01.170 --> 01:00:02.310]  Have a good night.
[01:00:02.490 --> 01:00:03.770]  I'll make a call.
[01:00:04.470 --> 01:00:06.390]  We couldn't get much more.
[01:00:09.740 --> 01:00:12.180]  We live on, but the best expect the worst.
[01:00:12.860 --> 01:00:14.760]  I hope that's understood.
[01:00:15.200 --> 01:00:15.820]  But we live on.
[01:00:58.740 --> 01:01:09.380]  Since November 25, 1999, five-year-old Elion Gonzalez has been held in Miami against the wishes of his father, his family, his country, and even the U.S.
[01:01:09.500 --> 01:01:11.280]  Immigration and Naturalization Service.
[01:01:11.660 --> 01:01:18.560]  How have Cuban-American forces in Miami, along with their supporters in Washington, D.C., been able to continually delay Elion's return?
[01:01:18.640 --> 01:01:23.300]  What is the impact of this case on national and international law and on a young child?
[01:01:23.300 --> 01:01:34.640]  Join the National Committee for the Return of Elion Gonzalez on Saturday, March 25, from 2 to 5 p.m., at the Hunter College Lecture Hall, room 615, in the Hunter West Building.
[01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:40.560]  The event will include an impressive group of panelists, as well as cultural presentations and refreshments.
[01:01:40.780 --> 01:01:46.480]  For more information, call 212-627-4506.
[01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:51.420]  That's 212-627-4506.
[01:01:56.380 --> 01:02:02.820]  It is 9 o'clock, and you're tuned to WBAI, your listener-sponsored community radio.
[01:02:03.120 --> 01:02:05.240]  Stay tuned for Tahrir.