[00:02.350 --> 00:07.330]  WBAI continues to keep tenants abreast and informed on the latest housing issues.
[00:07.590 --> 00:13.070]  Make note, now heard Monday evenings at 7, be sure to tune in for Housing Notebook.
[00:26.250 --> 00:29.190]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:29.670 --> 00:31.150]  That's a good thing this isn't television.
[00:32.350 --> 00:34.690]  It's time for Off the Hook.
[00:46.520 --> 00:51.620]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:52.280 --> 00:57.000]  It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[00:57.300 --> 00:59.900]  But the best, expect the worst.
[01:00.580 --> 01:02.460]  I hope that's understood.
[01:02.860 --> 01:03.480]  But the new boom!
[02:42.020 --> 02:42.540]  And a good evening.
[02:42.540 --> 02:43.880]  Good evening to everybody, the program's Off the Hook.
[02:44.060 --> 02:50.260]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday night, as we always come to you on Tuesday.
[02:50.340 --> 02:52.640]  Actually, that's not entirely true, we won't be here next Tuesday night.
[02:53.220 --> 02:54.220]  You know about this, Isaac.
[02:54.420 --> 02:55.340]  I know about this.
[02:55.460 --> 03:00.640]  Maybe you know about whether or not this is a typo, because I just got the notice in my mailbox saying that we're not on next week.
[03:00.760 --> 03:03.720]  We have a three-hour special the week after, but they say it's May 22nd.
[03:04.160 --> 03:06.880]  And May 22nd is a Monday, so I think that's a typo.
[03:06.880 --> 03:07.380]  I'm assuming it's a typo.
[03:07.460 --> 03:08.820]  And it's really May 23rd, okay.
[03:08.940 --> 03:12.400]  I didn't see the notice, but we were working with the camera to the other room there.
[03:12.540 --> 03:13.760]  Okay, okay.
[03:13.940 --> 03:15.200]  Well, that's good.
[03:15.340 --> 03:18.260]  But May 23rd, I would imagine, would be two weeks from tonight.
[03:18.400 --> 03:20.800]  We'll have a three-hour special beginning at 7, going until 10.
[03:21.500 --> 03:24.100]  So that'll be a whole lot of fun.
[03:24.100 --> 03:30.920]  I'm sure we'll be focusing on MPAA issues, censorship, things like that, and all kinds of other neat, fun things.
[03:30.920 --> 03:32.200]  We have a busy show tonight.
[03:32.880 --> 03:36.900]  In fact, for the first time ever, we're going to attempt something that's never been done before.
[03:37.300 --> 03:38.340]  Have Bernie S.
[03:38.520 --> 03:40.040]  and Kevin Mitnick on the same show.
[03:40.200 --> 03:45.560]  Of course, federal law prohibits us from having them both together at the same time, unfortunately.
[03:46.040 --> 03:48.160]  Well, if one doesn't hear the other one, is that a problem?
[03:48.600 --> 03:53.320]  It's a problem because we've already talked about it, and we can't be a party to that.
[03:53.320 --> 03:54.160]  So Bernie S.
[03:54.240 --> 03:55.840]  is on the phone line right now from Philadelphia.
[03:56.060 --> 03:56.860]  Bernie, hi.
[03:57.900 --> 03:58.260]  Good evening.
[03:58.520 --> 04:08.120]  I believe the words in the supervision agreement from the Federal Office of Probation and Parole is that Kevin and I cannot associate.
[04:10.160 --> 04:12.260]  But association is kind of vague.
[04:12.400 --> 04:16.760]  So if I happen to hear him on the radio, I don't know if that's association or not.
[04:16.940 --> 04:18.400]  We're not going to take the chance.
[04:18.420 --> 04:19.260]  We're not going to test that.
[04:19.260 --> 04:23.980]  Because we know they're awfully strict about things that really don't make any sense.
[04:24.980 --> 04:29.940]  So what we're going to do is have you give us some exciting updates on various things for the first part of the show.
[04:30.100 --> 04:31.380]  Then you're going to hang up on me.
[04:31.620 --> 04:34.380]  No, you're going to hang up on us because that proves that we've disconnected.
[04:34.400 --> 04:36.240]  When you hang up, we get a little reorder.
[04:36.600 --> 04:37.440]  Fat fidget signal.
[04:37.680 --> 04:39.180]  People listening to BAI are familiar with that.
[04:39.400 --> 04:41.240]  I could just simulate that from my end.
[04:41.900 --> 04:44.700]  Now we're getting into conspiracy and things like that.
[04:44.980 --> 04:45.400]  I'm not hearing this.
[04:45.420 --> 04:47.660]  This is really not taking a good turn.
[04:47.660 --> 04:50.440]  I might just go back to music for a while and start over again.
[04:51.160 --> 04:52.540]  Bernie, you heard something rather ominous today.
[04:52.580 --> 04:52.960]  What did you hear?
[04:54.000 --> 05:04.240]  I just learned today that the United States Federal Sentencing Commission, or I think it's called the USSC, United States Sentencing Commission.
[05:04.780 --> 05:10.340]  This is a small group of gentlemen.
[05:10.560 --> 05:11.280]  I don't think there's any guys.
[05:11.380 --> 05:15.420]  It's kind of like the FCC, except you don't really have any input on what they do.
[05:15.620 --> 05:18.160]  But these folks, they decide on...
[05:18.840 --> 05:27.900]  Basically, they take the place of federal judges in determining what fair federal criminal sentences should be.
[05:27.980 --> 05:29.660]  Like how many years somebody should spend in prison.
[05:29.660 --> 05:31.720]  Up until, I think it was like 86.
[05:31.720 --> 05:34.200]  Those things that need to be decided, yes.
[05:34.480 --> 05:34.780]  Yeah, yeah.
[05:34.840 --> 05:45.460]  Up until 86, when they did away with the federal parole and they changed their revamp to all the federal sentencing guidelines, federal judges had kind of broad leeway in determining what was a fair sentence.
[05:45.640 --> 05:50.900]  And they just took that away from them and basically make them follow a chart, which they cannot depart from.
[05:51.000 --> 05:53.080]  Well, Bernie, think of the danger.
[05:53.360 --> 05:56.880]  Think of the danger of having a judge decide something like that.
[05:57.080 --> 05:57.520]  You know?
[05:57.520 --> 05:59.680]  You know, you don't want a judge making decisions.
[06:00.700 --> 06:07.920]  Well, there were a few cases where a judge might have decided something that other victims in a particular case thought was not a fair sentence.
[06:08.140 --> 06:14.620]  And, I don't know, there was a whole craze in 86 about, you know, the war on drugs and the truth in sentencing.
[06:14.660 --> 06:17.240]  People were getting out on parole and whatever.
[06:17.240 --> 06:20.860]  Well, there's a whole craze in 1999 about the same thing, actually in 2000.
[06:21.660 --> 06:24.120]  And it's not getting any better, not getting any better at all.
[06:24.160 --> 06:24.880]  It's replaying itself.
[06:25.000 --> 06:52.060]  But now what's happening is that apparently Congress some time ago had ordered the United States Sentencing Commission to bring federal criminal sentences pertaining to computer or cyber crimes and copyright violation-type crimes more into line with the rest of the United States criminal sentencing guidelines.
[06:52.060 --> 07:09.160]  And what that means, basically, is that they're going to effectively double criminal sentences for computer-related and copyright-related federal crimes.
[07:09.180 --> 07:14.280]  Well, that right away gets my attention because I'm currently one of the parties in the lawsuit.
[07:14.580 --> 07:15.180]  That's right.
[07:15.180 --> 07:29.920]  If you are decided against in your case, which we certainly hope does not happen, you could be charged criminally with violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[07:30.000 --> 07:31.560]  And I could be doubly sentenced.
[07:31.860 --> 07:32.380]  That's the difference.
[07:32.960 --> 07:36.000]  I remember we spoke about what the sentences were.
[07:36.020 --> 07:37.560]  I don't have them in front of me.
[07:37.880 --> 07:39.640]  A few weeks ago we spoke about what they were.
[07:39.680 --> 07:45.160]  They were really draconian, like 10 years, 20 years for violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[07:45.920 --> 07:47.620]  Depending on the circumstances...
[07:47.620 --> 07:49.380]  Well, to me, draconian is a day, you know.
[07:49.800 --> 07:52.080]  This is just beyond the realm of comprehension.
[07:52.100 --> 07:59.600]  Draconian, to me, for someone who's spent, like, over a year in federal prison, that sort of situation, you know, a day seems like a cakewalk.
[08:00.080 --> 08:01.300]  I could do it on my head.
[08:02.060 --> 08:02.420]  Anyway.
[08:02.880 --> 08:04.840]  I won't be doing it on my feet or my head.
[08:04.960 --> 08:07.300]  I'm not playing these silly games here.
[08:07.460 --> 08:09.080]  You haven't been charged criminally.
[08:09.100 --> 08:09.440]  That's true.
[08:09.540 --> 08:09.940]  I haven't been charged criminally.
[08:09.960 --> 08:11.080]  No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[08:11.200 --> 08:12.240]  This is speculation.
[08:12.460 --> 08:13.120]  This is speculation.
[08:13.120 --> 08:15.980]  However, you could be charged criminally.
[08:16.260 --> 08:17.560]  Right now, it's all civil.
[08:18.080 --> 08:18.520]  Exactly.
[08:18.680 --> 08:20.000]  Everyone's very nice to each other.
[08:20.260 --> 08:29.760]  If you're decided against by a federal judge, or by jury, and you're sentenced by a federal judge, then you could also be found, you could also be charged criminally at that point.
[08:29.840 --> 08:34.420]  I think your chances of being charged criminally are greater if you lose this case.
[08:34.600 --> 08:37.840]  Well, the DA would certainly have a right to go on a witch hunt, so...
[08:37.840 --> 08:46.160]  Yeah, there wouldn't be really any, you would have plenty of material to charge you with because it had already been decided by a federal judge or a jury, whatever.
[08:46.440 --> 08:46.580]  Right.
[08:46.780 --> 08:48.860]  In any case, unfortunately, I don't have...
[08:48.860 --> 08:53.200]  It was like a 60-page proposal, and I didn't get a chance to read it at work today.
[08:53.340 --> 08:55.460]  So, I will have the details next week.
[08:55.580 --> 08:56.040]  But the bottom line is...
[08:56.040 --> 08:58.260]  Oh, you may have the details next week, but you're not going to be on next week.
[08:58.360 --> 08:59.620]  You'll have the details in two weeks.
[08:59.640 --> 09:02.520]  I'll have the details tomorrow, and then you can talk about it whenever you want to talk about it.
[09:08.520 --> 09:12.040]  But if Kevin Mitnick, for instance, were to have been sentenced...
[09:12.040 --> 09:15.160]  These are effective immediately, by the way, these changes.
[09:15.340 --> 09:19.580]  So, they are now part of the federal criminal sentencing.
[09:19.580 --> 09:22.560]  They're so efficient how they immediately do these things.
[09:22.900 --> 09:23.700]  It's like a star chamber.
[09:23.820 --> 09:25.400]  They just decide on this stuff, you know?
[09:25.640 --> 09:26.020]  Absolutely.
[09:26.020 --> 09:39.240]  And federal judges, who are one of the most powerful people in the United States, themselves cannot deviate from these sentencing guidelines unless they're under very strict reasons they can deviate from them.
[09:39.340 --> 09:43.200]  And basically, it's almost impossible to get them to deviate from these sentencing guidelines.
[09:43.500 --> 09:47.860]  Well, you know, the more I look at these things, the more insane it just all appears to be.
[09:47.920 --> 09:49.140]  And you almost want to laugh at it.
[09:49.220 --> 09:50.840]  Of course, it's not very funny, but it's just...
[09:50.840 --> 09:53.460]  Like, there was this piece on 60 Minutes two days ago that...
[09:53.460 --> 09:53.840]  I saw that.
[09:53.940 --> 09:54.760]  That's the three strikes thing.
[09:54.760 --> 10:00.700]  The three strikes in California, where basically someone can go to jail for life in California if they steal a bicycle.
[10:01.140 --> 10:01.940]  If it's their third offense.
[10:02.020 --> 10:03.840]  One guy actually stole a slice of pizza.
[10:04.420 --> 10:05.140]  A slice.
[10:05.300 --> 10:07.720]  Not a whole pizza, but just a slice of pizza he stole.
[10:07.900 --> 10:08.140]  Uh-huh.
[10:08.320 --> 10:09.480]  And he got 30 to life.
[10:10.220 --> 10:13.020]  Well, that's because he probably stole a car before that.
[10:13.300 --> 10:13.420]  Yeah, okay.
[10:13.420 --> 10:15.080]  And, you know, got into a jewelry store before that.
[10:15.180 --> 10:16.340]  No, no, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.
[10:16.380 --> 10:20.640]  You see, that is the typical reaction that they hope people have.
[10:21.060 --> 10:22.540]  Basically, any three crimes.
[10:22.540 --> 10:24.820]  He could steal a slice of pizza three times.
[10:24.820 --> 10:27.060]  And the third one, that's the one that sends him to jail for life.
[10:27.120 --> 10:29.700]  Well, he didn't quite get the lesson the first two times.
[10:29.840 --> 10:30.420]  Wait, wait, wait.
[10:30.480 --> 10:32.540]  What kind of a lesson is it you want to send here?
[10:33.240 --> 10:35.800]  What kind of insane lesson is it that you're trying to send?
[10:35.800 --> 10:46.840]  Isaac, do you think it makes sense for your tax dollars to be spent holding a guy in prison the rest of his life because he stole a slice of pizza?
[10:47.540 --> 10:49.900]  I mean, I bought the guy a pizza, you know?
[10:49.900 --> 10:53.740]  For one thing, that negates really serious crimes, like murder.
[10:54.100 --> 10:56.920]  You know, if you start sentencing people to the same thing, no matter what, the crime.
[10:57.020 --> 10:57.840]  Oh, yeah, he's a criminal.
[10:58.060 --> 10:59.420]  You know, we heard this thing with Kevin a lot.
[10:59.500 --> 10:59.980]  He's a criminal.
[11:00.060 --> 11:01.060]  He deserves whatever happens to him.
[11:01.320 --> 11:02.080]  No, that's not the case.
[11:02.080 --> 11:03.860]  There's different levels of crime.
[11:04.000 --> 11:06.240]  You know, I didn't cross at the intersection earlier today.
[11:06.740 --> 11:07.920]  I'll admit it right now.
[11:08.340 --> 11:11.800]  But I don't think that's on the same level as, you know, Charles Manson or something.
[11:11.820 --> 11:12.460]  Well, I agree with you.
[11:12.540 --> 11:13.840]  So they're going to have to raise the bar.
[11:13.980 --> 11:17.160]  They're going to say, hey, you get 30 years for stealing a slice of pizza.
[11:17.360 --> 11:23.560]  But, I mean, if you really commit something where somebody gets harmed, then we've got to make that a much more serious sense.
[11:23.640 --> 11:30.900]  Then the Federal Sentencing Commission is going to come around again, and then they'll give you, like, you know, like five life sentences if you steal the whole pizza.
[11:30.900 --> 11:32.380]  You know, something like that.
[11:32.520 --> 11:32.620]  Yeah.
[11:33.780 --> 11:36.180]  It's almost like they're on some kind of a drug.
[11:36.220 --> 11:39.100]  And I don't really know what it is, and I don't really want any myself.
[11:39.360 --> 11:40.520]  It's a control-free drug.
[11:40.540 --> 11:44.520]  It's the enforcement mentality drug.
[11:44.640 --> 11:45.520]  It's the power drug.
[11:45.720 --> 11:54.880]  Well, you know, I watched that piece about California, and to be honest, and I don't want to offend anybody here, but I could not stop thinking that this is how Nazi Germany began.
[11:54.880 --> 11:59.760]  And California right now is well on the way towards that kind of mentality.
[12:00.020 --> 12:02.220]  Because, basically, it doesn't matter what kind of government you have.
[12:02.300 --> 12:05.460]  It doesn't matter if it's a dictatorship, socialist, communist, or democracy.
[12:05.640 --> 12:21.320]  As long as the will of the people is one of anger and fear, then things like Nazi regimes will happen, and people will be tortured and killed for all kinds of bizarre things, because it's a reaction to some, I don't know, bizarre injustice that they perceive.
[12:21.320 --> 12:21.960]  On the other hand...
[12:21.960 --> 12:23.120]  The crime rate is up.
[12:23.200 --> 12:24.000]  People are going around...
[12:24.000 --> 12:29.380]  The crime rate just was reported as being down for, like, the eighth year in a row, yet we have two million prisoners.
[12:30.020 --> 12:31.000]  Go figure that one.
[12:31.200 --> 12:31.760]  Well, let's see.
[12:31.820 --> 12:34.560]  The criminals are in prison, therefore not committing any crime.
[12:34.600 --> 12:35.920]  No, you are not getting it.
[12:36.020 --> 12:46.300]  Well, going back to your Nazi regime thing, one of the opening acts for the coming of the Nazi regime in Germany was the disarming of the population.
[12:46.560 --> 12:48.920]  Listen, this has got nothing to do...
[12:48.920 --> 12:50.500]  Get the guns out of your brain.
[12:50.500 --> 12:52.800]  It's got nothing to do with guns, all right?
[12:52.840 --> 12:57.340]  There are enough guns in this country to overthrow every other country ten times over.
[12:57.560 --> 13:02.920]  You know, even if we completely outlaw them, you're still going to have plenty of access to them, so don't worry about that.
[13:03.820 --> 13:04.900]  It's not about guns.
[13:05.040 --> 13:09.340]  It's about, basically, injustice, people being locked up for very little reasons.
[13:09.560 --> 13:10.040]  Carl, how are you doing?
[13:10.040 --> 13:13.400]  Isaac, I bet if they passed all the gun control laws in the world...
[13:13.400 --> 13:13.840]  They already have.
[13:13.840 --> 13:14.320]  I'll bet you.
[13:14.400 --> 13:15.080]  I'll bet you.
[13:15.180 --> 13:26.880]  I'll bet if they passed more, if they were mandated registration of any conceivable firearm, at the point, you know, of a purchase with a criminal background check, so if you picked your nose in your past, you don't get the gun.
[13:26.980 --> 13:27.280]  Whatever.
[13:27.920 --> 13:31.160]  You know, if your name has to be Isaac, you can't buy a gun.
[13:31.300 --> 13:41.900]  Whatever laws they passed, I guarantee you, within a quarter mile of where you're sitting right now, within 24 hours, you could buy a handgun on the black market.
[13:41.900 --> 13:44.280]  It has nothing to do with laws.
[13:44.460 --> 13:45.980]  They'll be available regardless.
[13:46.680 --> 13:48.500]  All right, we don't have time for a whole gun control.
[13:48.600 --> 13:49.860]  Carl, you had a comment.
[13:50.320 --> 13:51.280]  Gun deaths are up.
[13:51.640 --> 13:52.560]  Gun deaths are up.
[13:52.740 --> 13:53.980]  Oh, thanks for the update.
[13:54.080 --> 13:54.380]  Ah.
[13:54.580 --> 13:54.880]  Okay.
[13:55.420 --> 13:55.720]  Okay.
[13:55.820 --> 14:00.880]  Well, in any event, I suppose we'll have time for this kind of a debate on our three-hour special.
[14:01.340 --> 14:02.740]  Yeah, it would take about three hours.
[14:02.740 --> 14:08.280]  Right now, we already are kind of packed in here with the things we have to cover in this one hour that we have.
[14:09.040 --> 14:13.820]  Now, Bernie, you've already scared us with the information that you've given us tonight.
[14:14.000 --> 14:18.140]  Well, I specifically scared you because you're the focus of just such an investigation right now.
[14:18.160 --> 14:19.320]  Well, I'm already running pretty scared.
[14:19.360 --> 14:23.080]  As you might have already heard, we're facing yet another legal battle now.
[14:23.220 --> 14:24.440]  This is the fifth one of the year.
[14:24.600 --> 14:24.880]  Uh-oh.
[14:25.100 --> 14:25.620]  Who's this?
[14:25.720 --> 14:30.940]  This may be the very first battle for a brand-new company, and it's against us.
[14:30.940 --> 14:37.260]  And I'm honored, and I'm pleased, and I'm proud to be the focal point of their wrath this particular time.
[14:37.360 --> 14:38.280]  I'm talking about Verizon.
[14:38.480 --> 14:39.500]  Verizon, the brand-new company.
[14:39.700 --> 14:40.620]  Have you heard about this, Isaac?
[14:40.780 --> 14:44.560]  Well, I've heard that Bell Atlantic and a bunch of other folks became Verizon.
[14:44.600 --> 14:45.340]  That was three weeks ago.
[14:45.360 --> 14:45.900]  That was three weeks ago.
[14:45.920 --> 14:46.940]  You haven't been updated since.
[14:47.140 --> 14:47.160]  I'm sorry.
[14:47.200 --> 14:47.380]  Okay.
[14:47.620 --> 14:50.420]  So 21 days passed, and now you're being sued by this brand-new company.
[14:50.420 --> 14:52.120]  Well, no, we're being threatened with a lawsuit.
[14:52.540 --> 14:52.720]  Yeah.
[14:52.900 --> 14:53.380]  And you know why?
[14:53.460 --> 14:58.900]  Because what we talked about on the air several weeks ago, basically, well, you might recall, obviously they have Verizon.com.
[14:58.980 --> 15:00.820]  They already took VerizonSucks.com.
[15:00.820 --> 15:01.820]  They took it themselves.
[15:02.060 --> 15:02.780]  Now, go figure.
[15:02.920 --> 15:03.680]  What is the logic?
[15:03.880 --> 15:05.140]  They kept it out of other people's hands.
[15:05.240 --> 15:06.580]  Yeah, but they took it themselves.
[15:06.600 --> 15:08.940]  What's the logic of having a site that says, we suck?
[15:09.040 --> 15:09.900]  You know, I don't get that.
[15:10.000 --> 15:11.100]  Well, they're not going to put anything on it.
[15:11.780 --> 15:13.720]  Right now, if you go to it, it says, under construction.
[15:13.880 --> 15:14.840]  So what does that tell you?
[15:15.240 --> 15:16.440]  I mean, that's funny.
[15:17.620 --> 15:17.940]  Basically...
[15:17.940 --> 15:19.820]  So it means they're not pointing it to their regular site.
[15:19.940 --> 15:20.300]  They're pointing...
[15:20.300 --> 15:21.380]  They're going to come up with a new site.
[15:21.540 --> 15:21.740]  Yeah.
[15:21.900 --> 15:25.480]  Well, it was taken by a bunch of lawyers who specialize in doing that kind of thing.
[15:25.560 --> 15:26.980]  First of all, it's a tremendous waste of money.
[15:27.300 --> 15:30.980]  Second of all, you know there's more than one way to say something sucks rather than saying it sucks.
[15:31.160 --> 15:34.500]  And that's why we registered VerizonReallySucks.com.
[15:35.140 --> 15:36.920]  And we said we were going to do it, and we did it.
[15:36.980 --> 15:38.980]  Well, here's the letter we got by a certified mail.
[15:39.780 --> 15:44.320]  Dear Mr. Goldstein, I represent Bell Atlantic Corporation here and after Bell Atlantic.
[15:44.840 --> 15:46.240]  Just to raise any confusion.
[15:46.240 --> 15:47.680]  So they didn't put it to B-A?
[15:47.820 --> 15:51.920]  And it's subsidiaries, which own the rights to use the Bell and Bell Atlantic trademarks.
[15:52.400 --> 15:55.180]  Bell Atlantic owns the Verizon trademark and service mark.
[15:55.440 --> 16:04.580]  It has recently come to my attention that you have registered the domain name VerizonReallySucks.com incorporating the Verizon mark referenced above.
[16:04.760 --> 16:16.700]  This letter is to inform you that your registration and or use of these domain names infringes Bell Atlantic's valuable trademark rights in the Verizon mark and violates the new Anti-Cyber Squatting Consumer Protection Act.
[16:17.020 --> 16:17.700]  Are you squatting?
[16:17.940 --> 16:20.300]  Well, first of all, let me just explain something right here.
[16:20.540 --> 16:25.380]  Cyber Squatting is where you take a company's name and you hold it for ransom.
[16:25.560 --> 16:34.600]  Like, basically, if we took Verizon.com and said, well, you know, we could let it go for maybe $100,000, you know, that's cyber-squatting in the eyes of the people who passed the law.
[16:34.660 --> 16:40.200]  I don't really like the law, to be honest, because, well, for one thing, it's open to abuse by corporations, and here we go.
[16:40.420 --> 16:41.600]  Right away, they're going to abuse it.
[16:42.020 --> 16:45.020]  So, uh, saying something sucks I don't think is cyber-squatting.
[16:45.060 --> 16:46.000]  I think that's an opinion.
[16:46.640 --> 16:48.600]  Anyway, here's, uh, here's the gist of the letter.
[16:48.720 --> 17:02.100]  Accordingly, unless you immediately agree to take the steps set forth below, including ceasing any use of the Verizon and Bell Atlantic marks and transferring the domain name verizonreallysucks.com to Bell Atlantic, Bell Atlantic intends to proceed under the Federal Trademark Act,
[17:02.240 --> 17:06.760]  including the Anti-Cyber-Squatting Act, by filing suit to protect its rights in federal court.
[17:08.260 --> 17:09.320]  What do you think of that, Bernie?
[17:10.540 --> 17:15.060]  Man, you know, I thought I was, I thought I had bad luck in my previous life.
[17:15.060 --> 17:20.200]  No, it's just, it's not me so much as what's happening to the net, what's happening in the corporate America.
[17:20.620 --> 17:23.120]  Basically, they're just, they're just reining it all in.
[17:23.280 --> 17:29.480]  They own everything now and they have to, uh, they have to kind of, uh, enforce, enforce their rights.
[17:29.560 --> 17:31.660]  And I'm putting that in quotes and italicizing it.
[17:31.740 --> 17:36.220]  You know, a good amount, less than half of that domain name is Verizon.
[17:36.600 --> 17:37.340]  That's true, too.
[17:37.520 --> 17:40.040]  I mean, it really sucks outnumbers the letters in Verizon.
[17:40.340 --> 17:44.620]  Well, tell me how much, what percentage of, uh, the site that we registered the other day belongs to them.
[17:45.060 --> 17:49.880]  Uh, Verizon says, Verizon should spend more time fixing its network and less time on lawyers.com.
[17:50.640 --> 17:51.680]  You can register something.
[17:51.880 --> 17:56.060]  Yeah, yeah, that's the maximum amount of space, 63 characters and we use every single one of them.
[17:56.140 --> 17:56.220]  That'll fit?
[17:56.440 --> 17:56.880]  That'll fit?
[17:56.960 --> 17:57.740]  That fits and it works.
[17:57.840 --> 17:58.180]  It works.
[17:58.340 --> 17:58.880]  You can go to it right now.
[17:58.920 --> 18:02.300]  Verizon should spend more time fixing its network and less money on lawyers.com.
[18:02.620 --> 18:04.140]  Put a www in front of it, obviously.
[18:04.280 --> 18:05.760]  How about, how about if I set up a,
[18:15.680 --> 18:17.260]  I be married?
[18:17.720 --> 18:19.300]  The letter I, the letter B, I be married.
[18:19.540 --> 18:21.640]  And that would contain the letters IBM.
[18:22.480 --> 18:22.760]  Ah.
[18:23.200 --> 18:23.400]  Yeah.
[18:23.600 --> 18:26.540]  So, you know, do you have a problem with that, Isaac?
[18:26.980 --> 18:28.700]  No, no, no, not at all.
[18:28.700 --> 18:29.160]  Well, I...
[18:29.160 --> 18:30.020]  You have a problem...
[18:30.020 --> 18:30.440]  So what...
[18:30.880 --> 18:33.960]  Why do you not have a problem with that and you do have a problem with what Emanuel did?
[18:34.060 --> 18:35.340]  I don't have a problem with what Emanuel did.
[18:35.520 --> 18:36.200]  Well, you better not.
[18:36.700 --> 18:41.660]  Well, you said that at least a third of that contains the cop...
[18:41.660 --> 18:42.260]  You were arguing...
[18:42.260 --> 18:44.020]  No, I thought he said the opposite.
[18:44.040 --> 18:44.880]  I was doing the opposite.
[18:45.020 --> 18:47.380]  I mean, even less than half of it is the actual trademark.
[18:47.840 --> 18:48.220]  Less than half of it.
[18:48.220 --> 18:48.340]  Okay.
[18:48.620 --> 18:52.080]  More than half is, like, you know, really sucks, which is just standard English.
[18:52.200 --> 18:54.120]  Let me finish the letter because it's kind of humorous.
[18:54.400 --> 18:56.380]  Bell Atlantic is the exclusive owner of the Verizon.
[18:58.900 --> 19:00.220]  Are they trying to serve you papers?
[19:00.300 --> 19:00.940]  That might be Kevin.
[19:01.120 --> 19:02.880]  That might be Kevin, in which case we have to...
[19:03.300 --> 19:04.040]  We have to go.
[19:05.540 --> 19:07.060]  Actually, yeah, why don't you see if that's Kevin.
[19:07.160 --> 19:09.260]  If it's not Kevin, tell them not to call me during my show.
[19:10.020 --> 19:10.440]  Thank you.
[19:11.540 --> 19:14.960]  Bell Atlantic is the exclusive owner of the Verizon, Mark, and name...
[19:16.940 --> 19:17.860]  That's somebody else now.
[19:17.920 --> 19:18.840]  You're going to hand that one to me?
[19:18.980 --> 19:21.500]  I should read their phone number out over the air.
[19:21.920 --> 19:22.920]  That's what I should do.
[19:23.180 --> 19:26.740]  I should do that for somebody who has the gall to call me during my show.
[19:27.360 --> 19:36.840]  Bell Atlantic is the exclusive owner of the Verizon, Mark, and name and has licensed the Verizon, Mark, and name to a wireless telecommunications company named Verizon Wireless that combines the U.S.
[19:36.920 --> 19:39.540]  wireless properties of Bell Atlantic and Vodafone AirTouch.
[19:40.200 --> 19:42.600]  Verizon Wireless, the country's advertisement here, basically.
[19:43.080 --> 19:46.680]  The country's largest wireless communications...
[19:46.680 --> 19:47.880]  Sounds like an advertisement.
[19:48.360 --> 19:49.840]  Yeah, it basically is.
[19:50.600 --> 19:52.420]  They're stroking themselves in the letter.
[19:52.600 --> 19:58.160]  ...has been the subject of an intensive media campaign, including television, radio, and print advertising.
[19:58.800 --> 20:08.100]  Bell Atlantic has also announced on the website, www.verizon.com, that pending FCC approval, Verizon will become the name of the new company formed by its merger with GTE Corporation.
[20:08.380 --> 20:12.740]  Our client is investing substantial sums of money in promoting the Verizon brand and company.
[20:13.220 --> 20:14.260]  This is the best part.
[20:14.400 --> 20:24.080]  On behalf of Bell Atlantic, its agents have registered hundreds of domain names incorporating Verizon and variations thereof, such as verizonsucks.com, and God knows what else.
[20:24.640 --> 20:25.200]  With them all?
[20:25.380 --> 20:26.180]  Through these efforts...
[20:26.180 --> 20:26.520]  No, they don't.
[20:26.620 --> 20:35.940]  Through these efforts, Verizon is rapidly becoming famous nationwide, and the public is already associating this name and mark exclusively with our client and the telecommunications services that it offers.
[20:36.800 --> 20:45.600]  More of our year registration and our use of the domain name verizonreallysucks.com also violates the new Anti-Cyber Squatting Consumer Protection Act, which was passed on November 29th.
[20:46.500 --> 20:50.120]  And, uh, basically, uh, what else?
[20:50.460 --> 20:58.640]  Uh, this new law makes it, uh, illegal, uh, to have the bad faith misappropriation of trademarks as domain names.
[20:58.740 --> 21:00.820]  Now they're accusing us of having it in bad faith.
[21:00.880 --> 21:01.520]  Bad faith!
[21:01.640 --> 21:04.480]  Well, saying something sucks, I guess, in corporate lingo, is bad faith.
[21:04.720 --> 21:17.620]  Uh, relief available under this law may include forfeiture of an infringer's domain name, transfer of that name to the rightful trademark owner, and awards of actual damages, statutory damages of up to $100,000 per domain name, cost, and attorney's fees.
[21:18.320 --> 21:30.280]  Bell Atlantic would like to resolve this matter amicably, without resort to litigation, but only if you immediately comply with Bell Atlantic's demands by no later than May 22nd, 2000, the same day that we were scheduled to be on the air, but I think it's May 23rd.
[21:30.540 --> 21:32.980]  So the day after, we'll know just what's going on.
[21:33.560 --> 21:40.600]  So they want us to fill out a form and notarize it and transfer the domain name over to them, and I guess pay for the domain ourselves.
[21:41.620 --> 21:53.100]  Verify in writing you will permanently cease and refrain from all future use of the mark Verizon or any mark or name confusingly similar thereto, whether as a domain name, company name, trademark, or otherwise.
[21:54.020 --> 21:59.640]  And if we do not hear from you by that date, Bell Atlantic will take all necessary actions to protect its valuable trademark rights.
[22:00.960 --> 22:04.200]  Can you call that lawyer on the phone on the next show you're on?
[22:05.320 --> 22:07.280]  You know, maybe we'll try to work something like that out.
[22:07.360 --> 22:08.360]  Her name is Sarah Deutsch.
[22:08.540 --> 22:10.880]  She's Vice President and Chief Intellectual Property Counsel.
[22:11.680 --> 22:15.960]  And I've gotten quite a number of references to things she's written in the past, basically.
[22:16.220 --> 22:19.840]  One of the things she said is that, yeah, we send out these letters all the time, and lots of times they just get ignored.
[22:20.960 --> 22:21.580]  Imagine that.
[22:21.580 --> 22:24.760]  That's something she said in front of, I don't know, some group of people somewhere.
[22:24.900 --> 22:25.360]  It got recorded.
[22:26.040 --> 22:27.980]  We'd like to hear her arguments on the air, I think.
[22:28.160 --> 22:28.300]  Yeah.
[22:28.560 --> 22:29.040]  Yeah, definitely.
[22:29.900 --> 22:31.040]  Was that Kevin?
[22:31.600 --> 22:32.140]  It was.
[22:32.260 --> 22:40.120]  Okay, we're going to have to go, Bernie, but before we actually go, I just want to take a little informal studio poll.
[22:41.540 --> 22:49.040]  As you may know, everybody is flipping out about this whole I love you virus going on.
[22:49.120 --> 22:49.980]  Oh, man.
[22:49.980 --> 22:51.180]  Yeah, you didn't get one, huh?
[22:51.360 --> 22:52.100]  Nobody loves me.
[22:52.240 --> 22:54.060]  Okay, I just want to take a quick poll around the room.
[22:54.140 --> 22:56.020]  It's one of people's stupidity news.
[22:56.280 --> 22:57.560]  Okay, now get off the soapbox.
[22:57.660 --> 22:58.640]  We know all this.
[22:58.940 --> 23:05.860]  Now listen, I just want to ask people in the studio and on the phone, yes or no, were you affected by this?
[23:05.940 --> 23:06.220]  Isaac?
[23:06.600 --> 23:07.560]  Nobody loves me.
[23:07.980 --> 23:09.060]  I'll take that as a no.
[23:10.300 --> 23:11.420]  Our special guest, Mike.
[23:11.780 --> 23:12.180]  No.
[23:12.440 --> 23:12.600]  No.
[23:12.880 --> 23:13.100]  Carl.
[23:14.880 --> 23:15.280]  Sorry.
[23:15.660 --> 23:16.260]  Okay, Bernie.
[23:17.600 --> 23:18.380]  I got one.
[23:18.500 --> 23:19.680]  I want to make love to you.
[23:21.300 --> 23:21.900]  No, no.
[23:22.000 --> 23:22.940]  I mean, were you affected?
[23:23.060 --> 23:24.140]  Was your data destroyed?
[23:24.560 --> 23:26.000]  Was your life thrown into turmoil?
[23:26.480 --> 23:27.020]  None at all.
[23:27.180 --> 23:27.380]  Okay.
[23:27.640 --> 23:30.800]  And, of course, nothing happened to me, as always.
[23:31.780 --> 23:32.940]  So, why is it?
[23:32.980 --> 23:36.640]  Why is it that you can take five people and we have not, you know, talked this over before?
[23:36.940 --> 23:37.240]  We haven't.
[23:37.400 --> 23:40.120]  We haven't talked this over because we don't socialize outside the show.
[23:41.320 --> 23:47.620]  And we had no previous knowledge that none of us were affected, but I knew pretty well coming into here that we weren't affected at all.
[23:47.780 --> 23:50.940]  Why is it so hard for other people to achieve the same goal?
[23:51.100 --> 23:56.400]  I can say that all 50 people at the company whose network I administer, none of them got it either.
[23:57.300 --> 23:58.840]  It's a very simple thing, you know.
[23:59.040 --> 24:01.120]  Didn't we learn this lesson from Melissa last year?
[24:01.500 --> 24:02.420]  Do you remember Melissa?
[24:02.660 --> 24:07.140]  I'm waiting for the next incarnation of this virus, which will actually maybe do something bad.
[24:08.120 --> 24:10.020]  Well, didn't this wipe out MP3s?
[24:10.020 --> 24:14.140]  You know, I think the recording industry of America must be behind it.
[24:14.200 --> 24:20.700]  Just like hackers have to be behind the MPAA site going down mysteriously, who else would benefit from erasing MP3s?
[24:20.860 --> 24:21.620]  I'm just waiting.
[24:21.720 --> 24:24.880]  Melissa was supposed to be the wake-up call that says this is a vulnerability.
[24:25.440 --> 24:32.800]  Now we have the I love you thing, which actually manages to exploit it a little bit and does weird things with MP3s and JPEGs or something.
[24:32.880 --> 24:33.380]  Something like that.
[24:33.400 --> 24:33.880]  I don't even know.
[24:33.980 --> 24:34.660]  I'm hearing all this stuff.
[24:34.740 --> 24:35.600]  Erase pictures and music.
[24:35.720 --> 24:43.000]  Yeah, I'm waiting for the third version, which is actually going to do something really bad, at which point everyone's going to say the same thing like, oh, horrible worm virus.
[24:43.300 --> 24:47.680]  But my question is, isn't this exactly the same thing that Melissa did?
[24:47.800 --> 24:47.940]  Yes.
[24:47.940 --> 24:49.440]  Didn't it use the same program even?
[24:49.880 --> 24:52.520]  So how could we possibly fall to it again?
[24:52.700 --> 24:54.020]  We haven't learned a damn thing.
[24:54.300 --> 24:57.200]  Like I said, I'm waiting for the third time and maybe somebody's going to wake up.
[24:57.420 --> 25:04.660]  Well, you know, while I don't advocate doing this kind of a thing, I can't blame the person if it is the person in the Philippines for this.
[25:04.760 --> 25:09.520]  I mean, it's mass stupidity and sometimes you gotta slap people across the face of mass stupidity.
[25:09.620 --> 25:12.100]  I don't know why they sent it out, if this is even the person who did it.
[25:12.380 --> 25:13.360]  I don't really care.
[25:13.480 --> 25:17.260]  But all I know is they're saying this caused $10 billion in damage.
[25:17.840 --> 25:18.980]  I don't think so.
[25:19.860 --> 25:20.820]  I don't think so.
[25:20.820 --> 25:22.540]  You heard Bill Gates' response to this, though, right?
[25:22.600 --> 25:23.400]  I'd love to hear this.
[25:23.520 --> 25:32.620]  Oh, Bill Gates basically had said, well, you do realize that if we break up Microsoft, a response to something like this in the future will be even slower.
[25:32.940 --> 25:35.600]  Add him to the list of suspects.
[25:36.160 --> 25:37.140]  It's all a plot.
[25:38.300 --> 25:41.160]  All right, Bernie, we're going to have to ask you to vacate the premises.
[25:41.480 --> 25:42.520]  Tell Kevin I said hello.
[25:42.860 --> 25:51.100]  Now, when you hang up, of course, we'll hear the traditional WBA iPhone system reorder sound, which proves that you have, in fact, hung up and that we are not tying you together with Kevin.
[25:51.660 --> 25:53.420]  Or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
[25:53.480 --> 25:53.980]  No, no.
[25:54.000 --> 25:55.220]  We can tell the difference, all right?
[25:55.220 --> 25:56.580]  A little light goes off over here.
[25:56.580 --> 25:58.060]  If anybody can tell the difference, it's us.
[25:58.700 --> 25:59.020]  Okay.
[25:59.300 --> 26:00.600]  Disconnect from the line, please.
[26:00.980 --> 26:01.780]  Tell Kevin I said hi.
[26:01.900 --> 26:02.160]  Bye-bye.
[26:06.260 --> 26:07.360]  You haven't hung up yet, Bernie.
[26:08.340 --> 26:09.060]  I think he did.
[26:12.180 --> 26:13.740]  Oh, this is really bad if it doesn't happen.
[26:14.140 --> 26:14.980]  Did the light go out?
[26:15.160 --> 26:16.140]  No, the light didn't go out.
[26:18.600 --> 26:22.020]  We could hang him up, but the point is we have to prove that he hung up.
[26:22.220 --> 26:23.020]  Why is it not happening?
[26:23.100 --> 26:24.580]  It happens all the time when people hang up.
[26:25.680 --> 26:26.440]  It's really annoying.
[26:26.620 --> 26:27.400]  I think he's still there.
[26:28.720 --> 26:30.200]  What, he's just being really quiet?
[26:30.300 --> 26:31.140]  Yeah, I think so.
[26:32.000 --> 26:32.880]  Could have it on mute.
[26:34.440 --> 26:36.560]  No, but this is really embarrassing.
[26:36.700 --> 26:39.460]  Okay, we're going to have to hang it up ourselves because it didn't work for some reason.
[26:39.560 --> 26:44.120]  And of course, now, federal authorities are going to be convinced that we're engaged in some conspiracy here.
[26:44.400 --> 26:47.440]  Well, if you hang it up, put the line back on, we'll hear the dial tone and we'll know it's hung up.
[26:47.520 --> 26:48.800]  We have 12 lines here.
[26:48.920 --> 26:50.200]  I didn't have to say anything.
[26:50.200 --> 26:50.700]  Did you hear that?
[26:51.040 --> 26:51.720]  Did you hear that?
[26:51.760 --> 26:52.780]  I heard noise on the phone.
[26:53.760 --> 26:54.600]  He's still there.
[26:54.900 --> 26:56.000]  Bernie, you're still there.
[26:57.420 --> 26:58.760]  I heard a sound.
[27:01.020 --> 27:01.760]  I hear a sound.
[27:01.980 --> 27:04.160]  I can't believe he's actually trying to stay on the line.
[27:04.820 --> 27:06.160]  Did you really think it would work, Bernie?
[27:06.220 --> 27:07.220]  Did you really believe that?
[27:09.080 --> 27:09.640]  You heard that?
[27:09.640 --> 27:10.080]  I heard that.
[27:10.080 --> 27:10.700]  Yeah, yeah.
[27:11.840 --> 27:12.660]  We're too good for you.
[27:12.900 --> 27:15.280]  All right, we're going to have to hang up, Bernie, so you might as well confess now.
[27:16.780 --> 27:18.160]  All right, all right, don't do that.
[27:22.310 --> 27:23.170]  This is ridiculous.
[27:23.870 --> 27:28.010]  All right, Bernie, we really are going to hang up now, so if you have any last words, you better say them in the next five seconds.
[27:30.010 --> 27:31.530]  Two, one, four.
[27:31.590 --> 27:33.130]  Okay, let's see on the Bernie.
[27:33.730 --> 27:34.210]  He's gone.
[27:34.470 --> 27:34.670]  All right.
[27:34.710 --> 27:35.210]  And the light is in.
[27:35.250 --> 27:38.790]  I don't know what's going through his head, so let's give Kevin a call.
[27:38.850 --> 27:42.450]  Actually, I'm going to have to, do you want to say something intelligent while I'm going?
[27:42.450 --> 27:42.630]  Me?
[27:42.710 --> 27:43.770]  Talk about intelligent things?
[27:43.770 --> 27:46.930]  Well, I think you're going to have to because you're going to have to put the music up.
[27:47.270 --> 28:00.610]  Well, if we're going to stay on the subject of strange PBX woes, folks may have noticed the Fox News story regarding the White House I leave you alone for one second and right away you have to quote Fox.
[28:01.170 --> 28:01.870]  Right away.
[28:02.090 --> 28:02.830]  the story was.
[28:03.030 --> 28:03.350]  Uh-huh.
[28:03.670 --> 28:05.750]  Anyway, I should tell you something about the story.
[28:06.310 --> 28:06.890]  All right, go ahead.
[28:07.050 --> 28:13.290]  Some Israeli company was brought in by Bell Atlantic to deal with the White House's non-confidential telephone system.
[28:14.990 --> 28:23.370]  And basically this company is suspected of doing some fairly interesting things so far as listening in to calls as they're in progress.
[28:23.990 --> 28:24.910]  They managed to find...
[28:24.910 --> 28:35.390]  It's not clear, but they managed to find a T1 line that wound up going to St. Louis or something which tied into a bunch of other lines and went back across the Atlantic to, they assume, Israel.
[28:36.610 --> 28:47.890]  Which, of course, raises the big question of whether or not we should let some foreign nationals come in and deal with potentially sensitive equipment in major areas of our government.
[28:48.470 --> 28:55.510]  I mean, think of what kinds of things would be said even on a non-classified telecommunications network in the White House.
[28:55.790 --> 29:03.710]  I mean, come on, you could listen in on, you know, Monica Lewinsky calling our dear president there and all their interesting little bits there.
[29:04.090 --> 29:10.590]  In fact, no one's really drawn that parallel yet to the possibility that the Mossad had used this guy to get...
[29:10.590 --> 29:12.290]  Oh, that's not bad at all.
[29:13.010 --> 29:13.410]  Yes?
[29:13.610 --> 29:16.890]  I hear that the lunar landing was done on a soundstage.
[29:17.130 --> 29:17.690]  Oh, you did?
[29:17.850 --> 29:18.250]  Oh, yes.
[29:18.410 --> 29:20.050]  Oh, the lunar landing on a soundstage, eh?
[29:20.530 --> 29:20.810]  Okay.
[29:21.010 --> 29:22.070]  People off mic talking.
[29:22.150 --> 29:23.090]  Come on, I was on the phone.
[29:24.250 --> 29:26.610]  Well, what are you doing engineering and being on the phone there?
[29:26.610 --> 29:32.370]  Okay, well, Kevin will be on the line in just a matter of seconds, I believe.
[29:32.570 --> 29:34.410]  But why don't you wrap up what you were saying?
[29:34.670 --> 29:41.870]  Well, basically, it's been suggested that Bell Atlantic may have been delinquent in bringing in this company.
[29:41.970 --> 29:44.930]  Admittedly, they're a phenomenal company so far as what they do.
[29:45.230 --> 29:47.230]  But Bell Atlantic refused to comment.
[29:47.410 --> 29:48.390]  Who's a phenomenal company?
[29:49.070 --> 29:51.670]  This Israeli company whose name escapes me at the moment.
[29:51.770 --> 29:52.210]  I'm very sorry.
[29:52.810 --> 29:55.470]  But Bell Atlantic brought them in on this contract for the White House.
[29:55.790 --> 30:06.470]  And, well, I mean, we have to start asking ourselves, do we want foreign nationals coming into the major systems in our government and installing this kind of thing?
[30:06.530 --> 30:10.290]  Is it worth having the best in order to...
[30:10.290 --> 30:21.410]  and is it worth sacrificing potentially large amounts of information to have a company from outside come in and do this sort of thing?
[30:21.590 --> 30:22.450]  Good question.
[30:22.670 --> 30:23.690]  We'll just have to see.
[30:23.930 --> 30:24.950]  Now, moving on.
[30:27.170 --> 30:32.690]  Just got this quick way of curing infected computers if you somehow fell victim to the I love you virus.
[30:32.870 --> 30:34.770]  Remove all star.vbs files.
[30:34.970 --> 30:41.270]  Restore a registry on Windows 98 computers to pre-virus status with scanreg, restore defaults in your email programs.
[30:41.770 --> 30:44.970]  So, remove all the vv scripts from all of Windows 95?
[30:45.810 --> 30:48.390]  Or 98, I guess, you know.
[30:48.590 --> 30:51.370]  That's one way if you're silly enough to fall victim to it in the first place.
[30:51.510 --> 30:53.930]  I think you just de-install Windows and put on something else.
[30:54.090 --> 30:55.210]  Here's a letter from a listener.
[30:55.390 --> 30:59.610]  You are incorrect in your assumption that either ABC or Disney have a stake in ZDTV.
[30:59.870 --> 31:02.210]  ABC, Disney have ownership in CNET, not ZDNet.
[31:02.790 --> 31:05.150]  You know, Paul Allen is the main investor in ZDNet.
[31:05.270 --> 31:07.950]  This person is right, and I was wrong last week, but you know why?
[31:08.230 --> 31:18.570]  You know why I said that is because when we were at Kevin Mitnick's release in California in January, the ZDNet reporter who was there told me that they were owned by ABC.
[31:18.810 --> 31:19.710]  Now, go figure that one.
[31:20.530 --> 31:23.290]  They think, you know, that person thought that they were owned by ABC.
[31:23.390 --> 31:25.390]  Maybe he thought he was working for CNET instead of ZDNet.
[31:25.510 --> 31:25.930]  I don't know.
[31:26.030 --> 31:26.550]  That's strange.
[31:26.810 --> 31:33.930]  But I just simply, it's an example of how bad information can get passed along and spread like a virus in many ways.
[31:34.330 --> 31:34.970]  It's not a...
[31:34.970 --> 31:35.570]  Never mind.
[31:35.910 --> 31:37.350]  Bad information is a virus, Isaac.
[31:37.990 --> 31:39.130]  Get yourself vaccinated.
[31:40.390 --> 31:41.750]  Kevin Mitnick, are you on the line?
[31:41.950 --> 31:42.450]  I'm here.
[31:42.510 --> 31:43.130]  How are you doing?
[31:43.430 --> 31:43.930]  How are you doing?
[31:44.650 --> 31:45.390]  Hanging in there.
[31:45.510 --> 31:46.010]  Hanging in there.
[31:46.070 --> 31:51.970]  Now, what's all this we've been hearing about you having problems with being allowed to speak and things like that?
[31:52.210 --> 31:53.770]  Yeah, it's been a shock to me.
[31:53.890 --> 32:10.930]  You know, since I've been released from, you know, federal prison on January 21st, I've been pretty much involved in doing interviews and being asked to speak, especially after my testimony in front of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee and, you know,
[32:10.970 --> 32:14.570]  working on writing articles and stuff like that.
[32:14.690 --> 32:17.170]  And I got a...
[32:17.170 --> 32:31.310]  Well, to back up a little bit, my probation officer was very supportive of me doing this type of stuff because he thought it was a good thing about educating people out there about, you know, what the...
[32:31.910 --> 33:01.010]  about what the threats or the risks are and basically taking my knowledge and being able to help others and what he was going to do was write a letter to the court basically outlining, you know, what I'm doing and that way he, you know, covers himself to ensure that the court wouldn't have any objection to it and he drafted a letter to the court And then he submitted this letter to a supervisor.
[33:01.370 --> 33:02.970]  And then he went on vacation.
[33:03.190 --> 33:25.750]  And I received a call a couple days later after he left from vacation from a substitute probation officer who informed me that the supervisor had made an executive decision not to send the letter on to the court and to deny my participation in any type of speaking engagements or writing articles or,
[33:25.750 --> 33:26.730]  you know, anything.
[33:27.190 --> 33:39.810]  And, you know, pretty much I was issued a directive that I could no longer participate in public speaking unless I'm specifically interviewed by the media nor writing about computer technology.
[33:40.350 --> 33:43.510]  And that's where we're at this point.
[33:43.770 --> 34:03.950]  And I'm working with my attorney here in Los Angeles, and we're going to be filing a motion for clarification or a request to modify my conditions of supervised release because what the probation department is doing is what they believe is their justification is I have,
[34:04.050 --> 34:22.450]  in my conditions of supervised release, there's a specific special condition which says, you know, without the prior express written permission of the probation officer that I shall not act as a computer consultant or advisor to any individual or group engaged in any computer-related activity.
[34:24.750 --> 34:38.590]  What we believe was the intent of the court is, you know, a computer consultant or advisor really works with computer-related equipment, so she wanted to keep me away from any computer-related equipment unless the probation department approved.
[34:38.590 --> 34:54.510]  But how the probation department is interpreting this condition is very, very broadly, and interpreting it where they consider just by me talking about or writing about computer technology as computer consulting.
[34:54.910 --> 34:58.670]  So they believe they're justified and they're just enforcing a court order.
[34:58.830 --> 35:04.350]  So now I'm forced to, you know, retain counsel and now go to court to try to get this clarified.
[35:04.350 --> 35:28.450]  And unfortunately, even though I believe this is a, you know, huge abrogation of my First Amendment rights, you know, to freely express myself, apparently from, you know, research of federal case law, that federal judges have the discretion to impose conditions of supervised release which infringe upon fundamental constitutional rights if it's,
[35:28.470 --> 35:33.230]  you know, primarily designed to protect the public or to rehabilitate the offender.
[35:33.230 --> 35:40.330]  But the conditions cannot be overly broad or, you know, courts have held that they would be impermissible.
[35:40.990 --> 35:49.690]  So what our argument obviously will be is, you know, what I've been doing is, you know, good for, you know, it's not a danger to the public and is good for my rehabilitation.
[35:51.370 --> 35:57.230]  And, but, you know, what the problem is is it kind of leaves it in the court's hands.
[35:57.230 --> 36:00.870]  And the court hasn't really been that favorable towards me in the past.
[36:01.030 --> 36:12.630]  So it's a real concerning issue because now I've been pretty much taken, you know, pretty much all my income has been stopped because that's how I was, you know, supporting myself.
[36:12.630 --> 36:18.790]  It was suggested by the probation department that I, you know, possibly get a job at Arby's or at Starbucks.
[36:18.790 --> 36:22.550]  But I don't really see Arby's or Starbucks in my career path.
[36:23.170 --> 36:25.270]  And besides, it's not kosher, right?
[36:25.510 --> 36:27.470]  Yeah, doubly so for me.
[36:28.110 --> 36:32.590]  Right, so it's just a real shame that this is going on.
[36:33.730 --> 36:39.470]  It's not my probation officer, per se, because he seems to be, you know, a nice person.
[36:40.250 --> 36:41.690]  It's the system, the whole system.
[36:41.690 --> 36:49.910]  The administration above him has decided that they're going to make it, they're going to interpret these conditions, you know, unreasonably.
[36:50.230 --> 36:58.190]  It's almost to the point as if I were writing in an elevator that I'm accessing a computer because it's a computer-controlled elevator.
[36:58.390 --> 37:04.930]  That's how absurd the, you know, the interpretation, in my opinion, is.
[37:05.130 --> 37:07.970]  Now, they actually said that you're not allowed to write.
[37:08.270 --> 37:11.430]  Now, how can that, I don't understand how I can possibly justify that.
[37:11.430 --> 37:16.750]  Well, I mean, even, well, Burl's Content is launching this online site called Contentville.
[37:16.910 --> 37:29.630]  And I was asked to be a monthly columnist to write, you know, like a critique of any articles that I choose that I read about in, you know, consumer computer magazines.
[37:29.990 --> 37:34.590]  And I was even denied to obtain that type of employment.
[37:34.890 --> 37:39.350]  Also, I was invited to speak on the issue of civil rights at Carnegie Mellon.
[37:39.350 --> 37:41.630]  And I was denied that opportunity.
[37:41.970 --> 37:50.850]  And, you know, they're justifying it in two ways, based on the broad interpretation of what a computer consultant is.
[37:51.010 --> 38:00.750]  And also, they're kind of controlling it in a fashion because they have to approve any travel outside of the Southern California area, out of the seven-county area.
[38:00.910 --> 38:17.470]  So, even if I were to get around the obstacle of whether or not writing about technology or speaking about technology as computer consulting, they can still restrict my travel.
[38:17.470 --> 38:33.110]  So, you know, I just don't understand, you know, why they would try to, you know, excuse me, I was distracted.
[38:33.410 --> 38:50.410]  You know, I just don't understand why they would take this position when the probation department is supposed to be trying to encourage rehabilitation and integrate, you know, their mission is to integrate the offender back into the community as a law-abiding citizen.
[38:50.530 --> 38:53.830]  Well, I think you said it pretty well a few weeks ago that it's no longer about that.
[38:53.830 --> 38:56.270]  It's about punitive measures now, it seems.
[38:56.310 --> 38:56.590]  Yeah, it's punitive.
[38:56.730 --> 39:02.150]  You know, in my opinion, it's absolutely punitive because I can't think of any justification.
[39:02.150 --> 39:08.590]  I think they take issue with my celebrity status and, you know, they take issue with that I have a lot of supporters.
[39:08.810 --> 39:09.550]  But, you know, it's funny.
[39:09.650 --> 39:14.450]  You wouldn't have had the celebrity status or the amount of supporters had they not treated you the way they did.
[39:14.830 --> 39:15.270]  Absolutely.
[39:15.610 --> 39:16.730]  So, it's their own behavior.
[39:16.890 --> 39:24.650]  Thanks to John Markoff and, you know, federal prosecutors that wanted to manipulate my case to make me the example for computer crime.
[39:24.650 --> 39:33.230]  Now, what's especially ironic about this is that you testified in front of Congress, you helped out the federal government quite a bit with, you know, with your words of wisdom.
[39:33.450 --> 39:37.270]  They made an exception for you in that case and now they just want to shut you up.
[39:38.010 --> 39:38.930]  It's really sick.
[39:38.950 --> 39:55.650]  Yeah, I mean, I think it's a real important First Amendment issue because when in this country have you heard of, you know, of, you know, the federal government basically ordering somebody that if they speak or write about, you know, issues, that they will land back in jail,
[39:56.310 --> 39:58.950]  you know, and that's basically what's hanging over my head.
[39:59.030 --> 40:10.670]  Now, what they're allowing me to do to, you know, prevent any First Amendment argument is allowing me to be interviewed by the media so they're not putting a gag order on me with respect to speaking to the press.
[40:10.810 --> 40:13.270]  Well, that was my next question, whether this conversation is legal.
[40:13.510 --> 40:14.870]  So, I guess it is.
[40:14.990 --> 40:17.850]  This is an interview and you're the media as far as I'm concerned.
[40:18.750 --> 40:20.930]  And I'm not speaking about technology right now.
[40:21.030 --> 40:25.230]  I'm speaking about my case, which is, you know, different.
[40:25.950 --> 40:30.050]  So, if we spoke about technology, that would be violating the rules of your surprise release?
[40:30.790 --> 40:39.690]  It would be dependent if this could be construed as a speaking engagement or public speaking or if it would be construed as an interview.
[40:39.690 --> 40:48.890]  Well, if you, on your own, just suddenly burst out and said that, hey, I think Microsoft is doing a really good job and their products are really great, that would probably be illegal, right?
[40:48.910 --> 40:52.550]  If I did it publicly and not in the media interview, that's how I understand it.
[40:52.570 --> 40:53.150]  Well, not illegal.
[40:53.370 --> 40:56.070]  Of course, it would be wrong to start with, but let's never mind that.
[40:57.470 --> 41:04.370]  That's... it's unbelievable the hell you're continuing to go through, even though, you know, five years in jail is enough time, you know, two years on the run before that.
[41:04.370 --> 41:05.250]  When is it going to end?
[41:05.770 --> 41:21.610]  Well, it's just, you know, continued punishment because I can't see any justification because can you see any way that the public would be in danger by me speaking in front of a group of people and, you know, of course, not encouraging any, you know, any commission of any crimes or,
[41:21.610 --> 41:26.330]  you know, writing my thoughts, opinions, and ideas on, you know, and having that published.
[41:26.850 --> 41:32.490]  I just can't understand, you know, how that would affect the rehabilitation or the protection of the public.
[41:32.490 --> 41:40.390]  So the only alternative is just for, you know, punitive measures and using these conditions as the tools of harassment.
[41:40.850 --> 41:54.250]  Well, it's too bad you can't be on at the same time as Bernie because I know he could tell us a thing or two about the government kind of seeking vengeance because they were made to look bad and just making your life as difficult as they possibly can.
[41:54.270 --> 41:58.170]  I think that's what we're looking at here is, you know, kind of an immature reaction.
[41:58.170 --> 42:02.890]  Yeah, it's interesting because I did an interview with Business Week today.
[42:03.050 --> 42:08.710]  They had a conference in New York and I had permission to be interviewed by Business Week since they were a media organization.
[42:09.470 --> 42:22.550]  And I was originally supposed to be on this panel where this, I think, the CEO or somebody from Excite.com and Michael Vadis with the National, the director of the National Information Protection Center and me.
[42:22.550 --> 42:41.090]  And then the guy that was interviewing me, Scott Schuster, told me when we spoke on Sunday evening, he goes, oh, by the way, the FBI director doesn't want to be seen on a panel with you or in any way associated with you, so we're going to have to have your segment after we complete their segment.
[42:41.090 --> 42:49.630]  It was kind of funny, you know, it was just kind of, you know, curious that they're really concerned about their, you know, their image and their association publicly.
[42:49.790 --> 42:51.530]  Is this the actual FBI director, Louis Freeh?
[42:51.530 --> 42:55.410]  No, this is the guy that's with the National Information Protection Center.
[42:55.490 --> 42:56.770]  I think his name is Michael Vadis.
[42:57.090 --> 42:57.530]  Yeah, actually.
[42:57.770 --> 42:59.810]  You know, it doesn't matter to me either way.
[42:59.910 --> 43:05.990]  It was just interesting to note that they took issue with it, you know, and, you know, so be it.
[43:06.410 --> 43:12.550]  Kevin, we're going to take some phone calls, but first I want to ask you, is there anything the public can do to help you out here?
[43:13.630 --> 43:21.490]  Well, I did speak in front of the Senate, the governmental, the governmental, what is it, the Committee for Governmental Affairs.
[43:22.610 --> 43:29.650]  And there were, you know, two particular congressmen that I was in, you know, communication with during, you know, my testimony.
[43:29.650 --> 43:32.110]  I think it was Senator Thompson and Senator Lieberman.
[43:32.350 --> 43:41.030]  Maybe if people would write letters on my behalf and explain the situation to them, maybe they could assist in some manner.
[43:41.050 --> 43:41.690]  I don't know.
[43:41.850 --> 43:44.290]  Well, Senator Lieberman, I believe, is a Democrat from Connecticut.
[43:44.290 --> 43:46.750]  And Senator Thompson is...
[43:46.750 --> 43:47.950]  Republican from Tennessee, I believe.
[43:48.190 --> 43:48.530]  That's right.
[43:48.770 --> 43:50.550]  You know, and, you know, I helped them out.
[43:50.670 --> 43:59.550]  I kind of, you know, through my background and experience, you know, I think educated them, you know, to some degree, you know, some of my, you know, thoughts and ideas.
[44:00.070 --> 44:01.690]  And I think it was productive for them.
[44:01.690 --> 44:02.850]  And these guys were very nice.
[44:03.130 --> 44:04.530]  They're not the people that have done this.
[44:04.610 --> 44:06.630]  So if people are writing letters, keep that in mind.
[44:06.750 --> 44:08.910]  But they do have the power to do something about it.
[44:08.910 --> 44:11.550]  They have the political influence.
[44:11.710 --> 44:18.650]  The people that are behind this are probably in the Justice Department, you know, or it could be just limited to the Probation Department.
[44:18.890 --> 44:20.150]  You know, I don't know.
[44:20.310 --> 44:29.150]  But, you know, I can speculate all day of who really could be behind it and what the agenda is.
[44:29.230 --> 44:34.830]  But what I'm looking to do now is try to get this issue before the court as soon as possible.
[44:34.830 --> 44:39.530]  But as you know, Eric, because you were in court, I don't know if I'll be successful there.
[44:39.770 --> 44:41.290]  And then, you know, then who knows?
[44:41.450 --> 44:48.050]  I mean, again, you know, I was held without a trial, a bail hearing, or without seeing the evidence against me for four and a half years.
[44:48.750 --> 45:00.690]  So I guess restricting somebody's freedom of expression is no stretch, you know, no stretch from what I've experienced thus far.
[45:00.690 --> 45:07.430]  The one advantage you have this time is that you're not behind bars, and you don't have a simple hour a week to research things.
[45:07.650 --> 45:10.930]  So at least you have a little bit more ability to fight.
[45:11.070 --> 45:12.930]  And you have a lot of people on your side, too.
[45:13.010 --> 45:17.610]  It's just we need some direction to know exactly what it is that we can do and what will be most productive.
[45:17.730 --> 45:20.970]  So hopefully we can accomplish that and at least get the word out.
[45:20.970 --> 45:26.390]  Hopefully, you know, I appreciate everybody's support and generosity.
[45:26.930 --> 45:29.590]  And I don't know.
[45:29.650 --> 45:30.990]  I don't know what could be done.
[45:31.110 --> 45:35.290]  It's, you know, it's pretty much up to my lawyers.
[45:35.710 --> 45:46.410]  Brill's, I mean, Brill's content, Stephen Brill, was kind enough to get another attorney involved to assist my lawyer, an attorney named Floyd Abrams.
[45:47.470 --> 45:55.190]  And so hopefully, I believe they're going to be doing an amicus curiae brief, you know, in support of my First Amendment rights.
[45:55.370 --> 46:01.070]  I'm not certain exactly what part they'll play, but I know that they're involved, you know.
[46:01.570 --> 46:03.170]  And so hopefully that will help.
[46:03.310 --> 46:10.210]  But again, because of the broad discretion giving these federal judges, who knows what decision will be made in my case.
[46:10.890 --> 46:13.530]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[46:13.530 --> 46:27.230]  We were speaking with Kevin Mitnick, who has been silenced yet again by the federal government not being allowed to participate in many conferences and discussions and even being able to write about these things.
[46:27.370 --> 46:31.590]  Yeah, Eric, your favorite news network wants to interview me about this tomorrow.
[46:32.050 --> 46:32.870]  What is this, Fox?
[46:33.070 --> 46:33.330]  Yeah.
[46:33.830 --> 46:35.910]  Well, just go in there with some armory.
[46:37.110 --> 46:39.790]  You never know what kinds of questions they'll throw at you.
[46:40.130 --> 46:43.030]  They'll try to tie in Monica Lewinsky to this somehow, you know, who knows.
[46:43.030 --> 46:43.770]  Probably.
[46:44.150 --> 46:48.670]  All right, let's mosey over to the phones and see who's out there.
[46:49.050 --> 46:49.630]  Good evening.
[46:49.710 --> 46:50.130]  You're on the air.
[46:50.830 --> 46:51.630]  Wow, thank you.
[46:51.810 --> 46:53.390]  That is so, so upsetting.
[46:53.530 --> 46:56.910]  I really feel like I want to scream along with you about all this.
[46:57.810 --> 46:59.170]  Did you know that...
[46:59.170 --> 47:07.090]  I heard an announcement on Shortwave on WBCQ that your program is going to be broadcast now on Shortwave.
[47:07.250 --> 47:08.030]  Did you know that?
[47:08.510 --> 47:10.450]  It's possible some people are doing that on their own.
[47:10.570 --> 47:15.990]  We don't care if people simulcast in various places because we're not a commercial station, so that's fine.
[47:16.710 --> 47:20.710]  You didn't put it up because it costs some bit of money to do that.
[47:20.890 --> 47:21.470]  I was just wondering if you...
[47:21.470 --> 47:22.910]  Oh, there's plenty of generous people out there.
[47:22.950 --> 47:23.130]  Yeah.
[47:23.330 --> 47:24.030]  Do you have a question?
[47:24.030 --> 47:25.470]  It's broadcasting now.
[47:25.590 --> 47:28.070]  I just wanted to tell you that I heard it.
[47:28.310 --> 47:28.530]  Okay.
[47:28.750 --> 47:29.090]  Thank you.
[47:29.410 --> 47:29.710]  Okay.
[47:29.850 --> 47:30.770]  I guess you don't have a question then.
[47:31.070 --> 47:31.530]  Let's go over here.
[47:31.590 --> 47:31.850]  Good evening.
[47:31.930 --> 47:32.350]  You're on the air.
[47:33.290 --> 47:33.670]  Yeah.
[47:33.750 --> 47:33.990]  Hi.
[47:34.070 --> 47:38.730]  I have a question for Kevin, or actually maybe Emanuel or Isaac meant of the answer.
[47:38.990 --> 47:43.290]  I know that Kevin let his amateur radio license lapse.
[47:43.690 --> 47:46.830]  I believe it expired December 12th last year.
[47:46.970 --> 47:47.910]  I don't know if that's the right phrase.
[47:47.910 --> 47:48.810]  He let it lapse.
[47:49.610 --> 47:50.530]  He was kind of in prison.
[47:50.530 --> 47:52.950]  In that sort of situation, who am I speaking with?
[47:53.290 --> 47:54.070]  Black Axe.
[47:54.210 --> 47:57.950]  I actually had the chance to chat with you when you were at the 2600 meeting.
[47:58.890 --> 48:00.710]  I believe it was a few months ago.
[48:01.450 --> 48:02.050]  Yeah, in March.
[48:02.410 --> 48:03.190]  Yeah, March.
[48:03.330 --> 48:03.790]  That was it.
[48:04.050 --> 48:04.750]  Yeah, that was fun.
[48:04.850 --> 48:05.410]  I enjoyed myself.
[48:05.590 --> 48:13.070]  Well, this is what happened is I submitted my renewal application for my amateur radio license prior to the expiration.
[48:14.470 --> 48:16.390]  They never sent me renewal.
[48:16.630 --> 48:17.050]  I called.
[48:17.050 --> 48:34.350]  I found out the FCC Enforcement Bureau has held up the renewal of my license, you know, for unstated reasons because they want to determine if they should have a hearing to show cause, whether or not they should give me a limited renewal license kind of to keep an eye on me.
[48:34.530 --> 48:38.470]  They want to know what my condition to supervise release, whether or not I could use a ham radio.
[48:38.870 --> 48:49.930]  So in any event, I have an attorney contact this fellow with the Enforcement Bureau, and he said that, as of now, I'm still licensed because they received a renewal application prior to the expiration.
[48:50.210 --> 48:54.570]  So as of right now, I'm permitted to use my license.
[48:54.690 --> 48:59.610]  However, they are still, you know, deciding whether or not they should conduct some sort of hearing.
[48:59.990 --> 49:03.310]  And they admitted to my attorney that they're not...
[49:03.970 --> 49:22.230]  They don't suspect me of violating any FCC rules and regulations, per se, but apparently they have, like, a catch-all where they can determine whether or not it is in the public's interest for somebody to be an amateur radio license or to have an amateur radio license for the public good.
[49:22.230 --> 49:32.510]  So they might, on that particular regulation or whatever it is, or their bylaw, might be able to hold a hearing.
[49:33.990 --> 49:35.870]  But I don't know what they intend to do.
[49:35.930 --> 49:38.810]  But right now, if I have an amateur radio, I could use it.
[49:39.350 --> 49:39.890]  Oh, okay.
[49:39.950 --> 49:43.890]  I was just curious as to what your licensing status was.
[49:44.010 --> 49:49.330]  It's interesting that they're going to try to take that away from you, too, even though you didn't violate Part 97 in any way or fashion.
[49:49.330 --> 49:49.750]  No, no.
[49:49.890 --> 49:51.930]  My case had nothing to do with amateur radio.
[49:52.150 --> 49:57.110]  And, again, you know, I guess everybody in the federal government wants a piece of Kevin Mitnick.
[49:57.830 --> 49:58.570]  I guess not.
[49:58.570 --> 50:00.990]  Maybe they go home feeling really proud of themselves.
[50:00.990 --> 50:01.530]  I don't know.
[50:02.150 --> 50:02.930]  Hey, thanks for the call.
[50:03.070 --> 50:03.390]  No problem.
[50:04.290 --> 50:07.670]  Kevin, you said if you have an amateur radio, do you not have one?
[50:08.070 --> 50:08.470]  No.
[50:08.910 --> 50:34.230]  Actually, the federal bill of investigation, when they searched my residence, they took all my amateur radio gear years ago in 92, and my attorney is going to file a motion to return my property, but after my appeal, you know, because apparently they won't return any of the so-called evidence without the case being finalized.
[50:34.230 --> 50:58.210]  And since I have a direct appeal pending, which solely is going to be on the issue of the confidentiality of the loss amounts that the government has claimed in their pleadings, remember, if you recall, that the government requested and the court granted the government's motion to seal any information with respect to the losses that these companies have claimed.
[50:58.210 --> 51:10.370]  And now we're going to appeal the court's decision to try to get these records unsealed because, you know, to show that it was a gross inflation, you know, that the losses were grossly inflated.
[51:10.690 --> 51:10.910]  Right.
[51:12.430 --> 51:17.950]  If anybody out there has an amateur radio that they want to send to you, do you have an address that people can send things to?
[51:18.710 --> 51:19.870]  Yeah, it's on my...
[51:20.550 --> 51:23.770]  It's on the website that's run by my supporters.
[51:23.950 --> 51:24.970]  You don't have it on your head, do you?
[51:24.970 --> 51:36.110]  Yeah, it's 2-2-1-9 East Thousand Oaks Boulevard, number 432, Thousand Oaks, California, 9-1-3-6-2.
[51:36.930 --> 51:41.390]  Okay, and if anyone has a spare amateur radio they want to send you, they can do that.
[51:41.510 --> 51:48.570]  The things they can't send you, obviously, are computers or computer equipment or cellular phones or things like that.
[51:49.010 --> 51:51.210]  But just about anything else, I think, is okay, right?
[51:51.250 --> 51:52.170]  I mean, you're not in prison anymore.
[51:52.170 --> 51:54.190]  You're outside, so you should be able to get just about anything.
[51:56.990 --> 52:02.070]  Yeah, just, yeah, no computer-related equipment is really what I'm not allowed to possess at this point.
[52:02.410 --> 52:02.670]  Okay.
[52:03.590 --> 52:04.450]  Let's take some more phone calls.
[52:04.710 --> 52:05.630]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[52:06.270 --> 52:06.630]  Hello.
[52:06.890 --> 52:07.330]  Yes, go ahead.
[52:07.450 --> 52:08.230]  Emmanuel, how's it going?
[52:08.310 --> 52:08.670]  It's Alex.
[52:08.970 --> 52:09.510]  Hey, how are you?
[52:09.910 --> 52:10.330]  Good evening.
[52:11.110 --> 52:11.570]  Hey, Alex.
[52:12.350 --> 52:16.130]  I wanted to mention something about the civil proceeding against you.
[52:17.790 --> 52:18.930]  What civil proceeding?
[52:19.170 --> 52:20.490]  I think it's me he's talking about.
[52:20.490 --> 52:22.810]  Yeah, with the MPAA.
[52:23.010 --> 52:23.770]  I was a little paranoid there.
[52:23.830 --> 52:26.170]  It's hard to keep track of all the actions being taken against me.
[52:26.190 --> 52:27.950]  Yeah, I go, well, who's coming after me now, you know?
[52:29.210 --> 52:30.270]  You never know anymore.
[52:30.490 --> 52:30.990]  I mean, what is it?
[52:31.030 --> 52:32.650]  It's up to five now, is that what it is?
[52:32.730 --> 52:34.630]  Five lawsuits we're facing right now.
[52:34.630 --> 52:41.130]  That includes, I think, Staples, NBC, Verizon, the case in California, and the federal case here in New York.
[52:41.130 --> 52:42.470]  You're quite busy.
[52:42.670 --> 52:44.230]  Plus others that are being prepared, no doubt.
[52:44.370 --> 52:44.990]  I'm sure.
[52:45.110 --> 52:46.210]  I'm sure, after tonight.
[52:47.190 --> 52:53.270]  What they plan to do, Eric, is they plan to crush you through trying to have you incur all these legal expenses.
[52:53.270 --> 52:56.550]  I think that's their strategy.
[52:56.990 --> 52:58.550]  Yeah, no, it's a good strategy.
[52:58.730 --> 52:59.710]  My hat's off to them.
[52:59.810 --> 53:04.710]  Definitely, that's the way to go about crushing individual people when you're a big, nasty corporation.
[53:04.950 --> 53:05.510]  But, you know...
[53:05.510 --> 53:08.430]  Corporations have all this money to funnel into their legal staff.
[53:08.430 --> 53:13.050]  They probably aren't doing much anyway, so, you know, they can go after people like you.
[53:13.170 --> 53:16.970]  But we've gotten more mail from people within those corporations that support us.
[53:17.010 --> 53:18.910]  I think that's the really funny part about all this.
[53:18.990 --> 53:25.630]  So, you know, we're able to get information from them that we wouldn't be privy to ordinarily because their company is taking action against us.
[53:25.930 --> 53:27.270]  It's, you know, very symmetrical.
[53:27.590 --> 53:28.490]  Yeah, it's very strange.
[53:28.670 --> 53:29.930]  Did you hear about the Napster thing?
[53:31.190 --> 53:32.650]  We don't have time for Napster.
[53:32.750 --> 53:33.830]  Well, is there a new development today?
[53:38.950 --> 53:40.490]  Well, I'm not surprised at that.
[53:40.610 --> 53:41.630]  But, Alex, now, you had a point?
[53:41.850 --> 53:42.250]  Oh, right.
[53:42.350 --> 53:47.410]  But you have the civil proceeding against you, and you're worried about the criminal proceeding that may ensue from it.
[53:47.850 --> 53:49.930]  I just wanted to make sure you knew.
[53:50.070 --> 53:56.130]  It's a lot easier for you to be convicted in a civil proceeding since they'll need to convict you by a preponderance of the evidence.
[53:56.250 --> 53:56.510]  Yes.
[53:56.870 --> 54:01.050]  But with the criminal proceeding, you still have to be guilty by reasonable doubt.
[54:01.370 --> 54:02.650]  Beyond a reasonable doubt.
[54:03.770 --> 54:05.690]  If I reasonable doubt, that would be pretty funny.
[54:06.210 --> 54:07.970]  That's actually, I guess, what it really is.
[54:09.230 --> 54:14.190]  But I still think that they would have to make a really strong case against you in order to convict you.
[54:14.350 --> 54:15.990]  But what's the federal conviction rate?
[54:16.070 --> 54:17.810]  96% or something like that?
[54:17.990 --> 54:18.250]  Yeah.
[54:18.370 --> 54:20.590]  And do they know that they file federal charges against you, Eric?
[54:21.110 --> 54:25.730]  It's basically, it's federal, it's a civil case right now.
[54:25.730 --> 54:27.230]  It's not criminal, but it is federal.
[54:27.390 --> 54:28.110]  Yes, definitely federal.
[54:29.490 --> 54:31.030]  Yeah, it's pretty sad.
[54:31.350 --> 54:31.570]  Yeah.
[54:31.730 --> 54:32.290]  Very sad.
[54:32.810 --> 54:34.030]  Any other updates?
[54:34.710 --> 54:35.510]  Not much.
[54:35.730 --> 54:38.270]  I've been checking up with the Utah Lighthouse Ministry.
[54:38.430 --> 54:40.490]  I haven't really heard much, and I haven't heard back from the lady.
[54:40.670 --> 54:43.230]  I think it's pretty much been stagnant for the most part.
[54:44.250 --> 54:45.770]  And I guess that's about it.
[54:45.970 --> 54:46.170]  Okay.
[54:46.270 --> 54:47.590]  Well, keep us updated if you hear anything else.
[54:47.630 --> 54:47.870]  I will.
[54:47.950 --> 54:48.470]  I'll talk to you soon.
[54:48.550 --> 54:48.810]  Okay.
[54:49.710 --> 54:50.950]  We're running out of time.
[54:50.950 --> 54:53.310]  So let's try to take one more phone call.
[54:53.730 --> 54:54.170]  Good evening.
[54:54.310 --> 54:54.730]  You're on the air.
[54:55.950 --> 54:56.430]  Speak up.
[54:56.850 --> 54:57.390]  Hey, how are you doing?
[54:57.450 --> 54:57.890]  This is Jason.
[54:57.890 --> 54:58.290]  How are you doing?
[54:58.410 --> 54:58.610]  Hi.
[54:58.650 --> 54:58.870]  How are you?
[54:59.130 --> 55:01.630]  I was just calling in about the one to Kevin.
[55:02.130 --> 55:04.850]  I want to say, you know, I've been with you since 93.
[55:05.810 --> 55:07.450]  Emmanuel, I hope you stick with the MPAA.
[55:07.710 --> 55:07.930]  Thanks.
[55:07.930 --> 55:09.730]  And the Verizon thing, it's insane.
[55:10.330 --> 55:12.630]  I can't believe what the corporations are trying to do.
[55:13.170 --> 55:14.410]  Also, about the CNN.
[55:14.810 --> 55:23.670]  All right, if you go to CNN.com, CNN has a poll about the, whatchamacallit, the lovebug virus.
[55:24.270 --> 55:28.390]  They said that 54% of people agreed, no, they were not attacked by the virus.
[55:28.530 --> 55:31.390]  So where are they getting these $5 and $10 billion numbers?
[55:31.810 --> 55:32.490]  I don't know.
[55:32.570 --> 55:35.410]  I work for a company that used to be called Bell Labs.
[55:35.550 --> 55:36.770]  I won't say too much more.
[55:37.170 --> 55:40.430]  For 12,000 user environments, we had less than 50 people.
[55:41.070 --> 55:44.170]  So it's, I think it's just, you know, again, it's a fair tactic.
[55:44.630 --> 55:47.370]  You know, the people in the power don't understand the technology that we do.
[55:47.730 --> 55:48.810]  And it's going to scare us.
[55:49.010 --> 55:57.510]  Well, you know, it's funny because at the 2600 meeting on Friday, basically, we had a bunch of reporters show up, all asking about the, you know, the I love you virus.
[55:57.770 --> 56:02.630]  And the thing is, virtually nobody there was affected by it in any way.
[56:02.730 --> 56:06.230]  It was just, you know, a very blasé attitude that we had towards it.
[56:06.230 --> 56:11.690]  Because, you know, there's a bunch of idiots out there to just allow themselves to be infected by this thing, which is very easy to protect yourself against.
[56:11.690 --> 56:12.110]  Exactly.
[56:12.410 --> 56:15.930]  I mean, I have over a dozen email addresses myself, and not a single one.
[56:16.270 --> 56:16.730]  Mm-hmm.
[56:17.490 --> 56:18.870]  So I want you to stay strong.
[56:19.050 --> 56:19.370]  All right.
[56:19.450 --> 56:20.350]  I'm definitely behind you guys.
[56:20.430 --> 56:21.070]  Thanks for the support.
[56:22.210 --> 56:24.670]  Kevin, closing remarks, because we are kind of out of time.
[56:24.670 --> 56:26.430]  Well, I don't know.
[56:26.510 --> 56:38.070]  I just will just take this one day at a time, and hopefully I'll get my First Amendment rights back, and we'll go from there.
[56:38.170 --> 56:43.130]  That's all I can really do, and I appreciate everybody's support and concern, and thank you.
[56:43.390 --> 56:43.630]  Okay.
[56:43.950 --> 56:47.150]  Hopefully we'll have you back again for the three-hour special in two weeks.
[56:47.750 --> 56:53.590]  We'll update people on that on the website, and that, I believe, is happening in two weeks.
[56:54.250 --> 56:57.030]  That would be May 23rd from 7 to 10 p.m.
[56:57.030 --> 56:59.270]  We'll have all kinds of interesting things.
[56:59.330 --> 57:03.590]  It'll be part of the pledge drive, so we'll have all kinds of neat premiums as well.
[57:04.590 --> 57:07.830]  Now, something very interesting that's happening for H2K coming up in July.
[57:08.010 --> 57:12.990]  We'll be having what's known as a mock trial, and that should be very interesting to you legal people out there.
[57:13.470 --> 57:22.210]  Basically, as you know, we're being faced with a lawsuit for the DECSS code that tells how to decrypt the encryption scheme on DVDs.
[57:22.650 --> 57:24.270]  Well, now, are we innocent?
[57:24.370 --> 57:24.870]  Are we guilty?
[57:25.130 --> 57:26.590]  Should we be held accountable?
[57:26.750 --> 57:27.410]  Should we go to prison?
[57:27.610 --> 57:28.210]  Can I be the judge?
[57:28.690 --> 57:29.830]  I don't know if you can be the judge.
[57:30.250 --> 57:30.790]  I don't know.
[57:31.030 --> 57:34.290]  The judge basically has to be somebody with a lot of legal knowledge.
[57:34.430 --> 57:36.710]  You know, has to know the law books inside and out.
[57:36.810 --> 57:37.090]  I don't know.
[57:37.230 --> 57:37.670]  Maybe you do.
[57:37.790 --> 57:38.150]  I don't know.
[57:38.250 --> 57:39.910]  Maybe there's a hidden aspect to you I'm not aware of.
[57:40.450 --> 57:41.330]  But here's the thing.
[57:41.550 --> 57:42.690]  We are going to have a judge.
[57:42.690 --> 57:44.350]  We're going to have lawyers for either side.
[57:44.530 --> 57:47.050]  You know, they don't have to be real lawyers, but they have to understand the arguments.
[57:47.210 --> 57:47.530]  I've done my job before.
[57:47.650 --> 57:47.790]  Yeah.
[57:47.910 --> 57:48.430]  It's a lot of fun.
[57:48.590 --> 57:51.830]  And we're going to select a jury out of the audience at random.
[57:51.950 --> 57:54.130]  And then we're going to sequester that jury.
[57:55.390 --> 57:56.970]  And they're going to have to come up with a verdict.
[57:57.290 --> 58:04.610]  Basically, what we're going to do is on Saturday, this will be Saturday, July 15th, sometime at night we'll have the trial, which I think will last no longer than two hours.
[58:05.250 --> 58:06.830]  And then the jury will be selected.
[58:06.830 --> 58:09.150]  They'll go to a room someplace in the hotel.
[58:09.570 --> 58:13.390]  And then Sunday, at the end of the conference, around 6 p.m., they're going to come out.
[58:13.490 --> 58:16.630]  And they're going... well, hopefully they won't be there all that time.
[58:16.630 --> 58:20.430]  If they reach an agreement quickly, then they can go attend the rest of the conference and have fun.
[58:20.430 --> 58:23.150]  If they want to be difficult about it, then they'll be locked in their room.
[58:23.530 --> 58:27.030]  Well, I'm assuming they're going to order all the room service they possibly can.
[58:27.690 --> 58:28.050]  Yeah.
[58:28.350 --> 58:29.290]  Okay, there's that, too.
[58:29.470 --> 58:31.010]  We'll have to work on those details.
[58:31.650 --> 58:34.650]  But in any event, we'll have a verdict.
[58:34.650 --> 58:36.710]  It should be pretty educational, interesting, and fun.
[58:37.050 --> 58:40.030]  Because we can't wait until December when the trial, the real trial, is supposed to be.
[58:40.110 --> 58:40.990]  So we want to have it now.
[58:41.430 --> 58:43.430]  And since we can't have it right now, we'll have it in July.
[58:43.650 --> 58:44.910]  So that's what we're doing.
[58:45.050 --> 58:47.590]  More information, www.h2k.net.
[58:47.690 --> 58:51.030]  If you want to write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:51.450 --> 58:52.670]  We'll see you in two weeks.
[58:53.410 --> 58:54.030]  Have a good night.
[59:01.110 --> 59:10.020]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I...