[00:01.840 --> 00:05.480]  But I know from people who went to see Casey that he really couldn't speak.
[00:07.680 --> 00:09.360]  That kind of discredits the whole book.
[00:10.080 --> 00:12.280]  You have to ask questions about that.
[00:13.560 --> 00:15.780]  Casey never had a chance to defend himself.
[00:16.000 --> 00:16.820]  Let me put it this way.
[00:16.980 --> 00:21.840]  If that came up in court, if he was testifying, that would just about discredit him as a witness.
[00:23.100 --> 00:24.320]  I don't know what to ask you for.
[00:24.480 --> 00:27.180]  You know, I just need another hour with you on.
[00:28.400 --> 00:29.240]  Quick comment.
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[00:46.140 --> 00:52.040]  From July 11th until the 30th, Lincoln Center Festival 2000 presents Caribbean Roots.
[00:52.120 --> 00:55.380]  A look at calypso, soca, reggae, compa, and more.
[00:55.600 --> 01:01.340]  On Monday, July 24th, the mystic revelation of Rastafari kicks off the festival with their first U.S.
[01:01.440 --> 01:03.060]  appearance in 25 years.
[01:03.060 --> 01:10.540]  Bookman Experience and Mizik Racine present the music and rhythms of Haiti on Wednesday, July 26th.
[01:10.540 --> 01:17.860]  Linton Kwesi Johnson, Dennis Bovel, and David Rudder headline a night of Griots of the West Indies on Thursday, July 27th.
[01:18.880 --> 01:28.340]  Parang and Indocalypso jazz are the focus of our musical attention on Friday, July 28th with the San Jose of Serenaders and Mungal, Patasa, and Pantha.
[01:28.560 --> 01:36.760]  The rising stars of Creole song, Kali, Beethoven, Obas, and Chris Combat, close the festival on Saturday, July 29th.
[01:36.760 --> 01:42.000]  For more information, call 212-875-5928.
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[01:51.000 --> 01:54.020]  And you're listening to WBAI Radio in New York.
[01:54.220 --> 01:55.520]  The time is just about 8 o'clock.
[01:55.860 --> 01:57.340]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:04.160 --> 02:06.080]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[02:06.460 --> 02:08.580]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[02:09.620 --> 02:11.670]  I cut myself off shaving.
[02:12.320 --> 02:14.240]  Now I can't make a cough.
[02:15.220 --> 02:16.990]  It could be yet much worse.
[02:17.680 --> 02:19.580]  But if I could, they would.
[02:19.780 --> 02:22.380]  From the bank with the best, it's back to birth.
[02:23.110 --> 02:25.060]  I hope the sun is good.
[02:25.200 --> 02:25.880]  From the smoke.
[03:13.530 --> 03:14.670]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:14.710 --> 03:15.530]  The program is Off the Hook.
[03:15.550 --> 03:21.130]  And we are here with a mob of people tonight from leftovers from H2K.
[03:21.410 --> 03:22.210]  Everybody say hi at once.
[03:22.370 --> 03:22.950]  Yeah, everyone say hi.
[03:23.210 --> 03:24.090]  Hi, Ryan!
[03:24.890 --> 03:26.050]  Wow, we have a lot of people here.
[03:26.110 --> 03:27.530]  I don't think we've ever had this many people before.
[03:27.550 --> 03:28.190]  Yeah, this is kind of fun.
[03:28.730 --> 03:29.050]  Boy.
[03:29.730 --> 03:33.250]  Well, I guess we have two major things to talk about tonight on the show.
[03:33.950 --> 03:36.770]  And we've got to get right into it because we only have an hour.
[03:36.770 --> 03:38.870]  But, of course, H2K being one of them.
[03:39.150 --> 03:40.670]  And the trial being the other.
[03:40.830 --> 03:42.470]  Because they both happen one right after the other.
[03:43.250 --> 03:44.810]  So I guess that's how we should talk about it.
[03:44.850 --> 03:45.510]  One right after the other.
[03:46.250 --> 03:47.330]  H2K was great, wasn't it, Isaac?
[03:47.510 --> 03:48.570]  It was long.
[03:49.010 --> 03:49.310]  Long?
[03:49.430 --> 03:49.750]  Well, yeah.
[03:49.890 --> 03:50.410]  I guess it was...
[03:50.410 --> 03:51.830]  For me, it was one very long day.
[03:52.050 --> 03:53.470]  It was three days, actually.
[03:53.610 --> 03:54.230]  It started...
[03:54.230 --> 03:56.790]  Well, actually, for some of us, it started well before Friday.
[03:56.910 --> 04:00.390]  But we had people setting up Thursday night all throughout the hotel.
[04:00.530 --> 04:02.370]  Now, of course, everything went wrong.
[04:02.550 --> 04:06.150]  You know, because Bell Atlantic didn't get the T1 in when they said they were going to.
[04:06.150 --> 04:07.590]  And we had to work through the night.
[04:07.750 --> 04:08.630]  And in the end...
[04:08.630 --> 04:10.190]  In the end, though, everything worked out.
[04:10.590 --> 04:12.450]  Bell Atlantic came and they stayed all night long.
[04:12.510 --> 04:13.150]  And they fixed things.
[04:13.250 --> 04:15.410]  And we had our provider, NAC.net, come.
[04:15.590 --> 04:17.890]  And they fixed everything and made it all work just great.
[04:18.590 --> 04:20.670]  So the network was saved in the end.
[04:21.270 --> 04:21.630]  Yeah.
[04:21.730 --> 04:22.770]  And Saturday and Sunday.
[04:23.150 --> 04:23.510]  Well, yeah.
[04:23.610 --> 04:24.310]  It came up on Friday.
[04:25.170 --> 04:26.350]  So that worked out.
[04:26.490 --> 04:30.390]  And, boy, we had so many different things going on at once.
[04:30.390 --> 04:30.870]  It was...
[04:31.210 --> 04:32.270]  It was mayhem.
[04:32.350 --> 04:32.890]  It really was mayhem.
[04:32.930 --> 04:33.690]  But a good kind of mayhem.
[04:34.010 --> 04:35.550]  The kind of mayhem that you can...
[04:35.550 --> 04:38.610]  Yeah, but it also was obviously that there was not enough time for all those...
[04:38.610 --> 04:39.330]  You have to introduce yourself.
[04:39.590 --> 04:39.650]  Yes.
[04:40.010 --> 04:41.950]  You must introduce yourself before you start talking otherwise.
[04:42.110 --> 04:42.290]  Okay.
[04:42.530 --> 04:44.250]  Andy from Chaos Computer Club in Germany.
[04:44.530 --> 04:44.590]  That's right.
[04:44.710 --> 04:46.310]  I mean, I was here and it was...
[04:46.310 --> 04:50.850]  It was good, but it was obviously that it was not enough time for all those workshops.
[04:50.850 --> 04:51.170]  Yeah.
[04:51.390 --> 04:54.930]  So there was a lot of things that could have been done longer.
[04:55.150 --> 04:58.490]  And so, I mean, I'm expecting you to do this every year now.
[04:58.610 --> 04:59.470]  Yeah, for a week at least.
[04:59.490 --> 05:00.010]  Yeah, you're better.
[05:00.230 --> 05:00.570]  In Germany.
[05:00.770 --> 05:03.230]  No, at least, I mean, we do it once a year and that's okay.
[05:03.230 --> 05:09.330]  And then you do in the year maybe one or two workshops on other topics that take a weekend or something like that.
[05:09.390 --> 05:11.870]  How many people show up to the Chaos Congress every year?
[05:11.910 --> 05:16.350]  I mean, this has been really growing because we've been doing it for 16, 17 years now.
[05:16.450 --> 05:18.970]  And it's about 2,500 people now.
[05:19.310 --> 05:19.470]  Really?
[05:19.470 --> 05:21.490]  How many people have been coming to H2K?
[05:21.690 --> 05:23.970]  We had about that amount show up at H2K.
[05:24.110 --> 05:24.170]  Yeah.
[05:24.170 --> 05:26.730]  But, I mean, I thought that was big compared to what was going on over there.
[05:26.890 --> 05:27.110]  Right.
[05:27.190 --> 05:30.190]  I mean, we started with about 400, 500 people in 1984.
[05:30.830 --> 05:32.650]  And it has been growing constantly.
[05:32.970 --> 05:37.970]  We are now in the former party school of the GDR, so the former Eastern German Republic.
[05:38.310 --> 05:40.350]  It's a great building built in the 60s.
[05:40.430 --> 05:43.830]  You have a lot of orange sofas there and stuff like that.
[05:43.910 --> 05:47.170]  What, you mean you're in the party headquarters of the Communist Party of East Germany?
[05:47.270 --> 05:49.650]  And the former, so that party doesn't exist anymore.
[05:50.010 --> 05:50.310]  That's a lot of fun.
[05:50.710 --> 05:54.810]  If we had a Communist Party here that had gone away, we probably could use their space too.
[05:54.990 --> 05:55.130]  Right.
[05:55.730 --> 05:56.490]  But that's something.
[05:56.610 --> 05:57.770]  And how long has the Congress gone for?
[05:57.870 --> 05:58.350]  How many days?
[05:58.990 --> 06:01.390]  It's three days between Christmas and New Year's Day.
[06:01.390 --> 06:07.270]  But obviously, I mean, it starts at December 25th, so next day after Christmas.
[06:07.490 --> 06:10.090]  In Germany, Christmas is 24th, not 25th.
[06:10.550 --> 06:17.930]  And then we run until four days party, five days party until the 30th, something like that.
[06:18.090 --> 06:23.510]  And then it goes over to have 24 hours of sleep and then have New Year's Day.
[06:23.930 --> 06:25.110]  I'm going to try to make it this year.
[06:25.170 --> 06:25.610]  I really am.
[06:25.710 --> 06:26.810]  I said it every year.
[06:26.890 --> 06:27.050]  Okay.
[06:27.210 --> 06:31.390]  But I'm really going to try because this year I think maybe all the pressure will finally be off.
[06:31.670 --> 06:31.850]  Of course.
[06:32.370 --> 06:39.170]  And of course, everyone else is invited also, so just have a look at https www.ccc.de.
[06:39.510 --> 06:39.770]  Okay.
[06:40.110 --> 06:40.730]  Sounds cool.
[06:41.750 --> 06:44.230]  And of course, there's HAL 2001 coming up next year.
[06:44.490 --> 06:44.550]  Yes.
[06:44.570 --> 06:45.450]  Somewhere in Holland.
[06:46.150 --> 06:46.930]  Are you going to go there, Isaac?
[06:47.070 --> 06:48.170]  I think I'm going to.
[06:48.270 --> 06:48.490]  Good.
[06:49.210 --> 06:51.670]  I'm probably going to wind up at 3C as well.
[06:51.670 --> 06:52.010]  All right.
[06:52.250 --> 06:53.290]  You'll learn a lot at both of them.
[06:53.710 --> 06:53.990]  I don't know.
[06:54.030 --> 06:56.050]  Do we have an exact date for HAL 2001 yet?
[06:57.150 --> 06:57.510]  No.
[06:57.690 --> 06:59.130]  Something like in August, I think.
[06:59.930 --> 07:00.650]  August 2001.
[07:00.970 --> 07:01.070]  Yeah.
[07:01.250 --> 07:01.970]  Something like that.
[07:02.930 --> 07:03.190]  Okay.
[07:03.990 --> 07:04.750]  What are you doing?
[07:04.970 --> 07:08.770]  By the way, you will have an online documentation of H2K online?
[07:09.150 --> 07:09.510]  Yeah.
[07:09.570 --> 07:10.330]  Well, we have tapes.
[07:10.530 --> 07:11.970]  We just got to figure out where they are.
[07:12.350 --> 07:14.030]  So you make video streams out of them?
[07:14.930 --> 07:16.330]  We'll make video out of them.
[07:16.410 --> 07:18.390]  We'll put the audio up on the net as soon as we can.
[07:18.610 --> 07:18.970]  Sure.
[07:18.970 --> 07:22.550]  And we just have to get our wits together after all this.
[07:22.670 --> 07:24.790]  It's a tremendous amount to unwind from as well.
[07:24.970 --> 07:25.190]  Yeah.
[07:25.310 --> 07:29.110]  I missed a little bit that there could have been, because it was simply not possible.
[07:29.250 --> 07:29.910]  You missed a little bit?
[07:29.990 --> 07:30.610]  I missed a lot.
[07:30.810 --> 07:31.030]  Yeah.
[07:31.150 --> 07:31.650]  We all missed a lot.
[07:31.650 --> 07:37.990]  What I missed was, and that's always the problem, you do two things at the same time, so you can't join those workshops.
[07:38.430 --> 07:44.690]  It would have been good to have a little bit more URL or whatever on the topics you could not join, because they run separately.
[07:44.970 --> 07:45.170]  Yeah.
[07:45.530 --> 07:48.170]  Maybe you just said that online.
[07:48.590 --> 07:48.750]  Yeah.
[07:49.010 --> 07:50.290]  Well, we'll certainly try.
[07:50.390 --> 07:53.470]  But I think a good thing is to have too much rather than too little.
[07:53.630 --> 07:54.950]  And you certainly can't say we had too little.
[07:54.950 --> 07:55.750]  Oh, yes.
[07:55.850 --> 07:56.770]  I mean, that's New York.
[07:57.150 --> 07:59.130]  Too much is not enough.
[07:59.590 --> 08:00.010]  So...
[08:00.690 --> 08:01.630]  Just keep pounding around.
[08:01.810 --> 08:03.410]  It was a lot like New York.
[08:03.550 --> 08:03.890]  Yes.
[08:04.070 --> 08:06.230]  Way too much and way too many choices.
[08:06.890 --> 08:07.330]  Not enough.
[08:07.330 --> 08:08.050]  But that's a good thing.
[08:08.330 --> 08:09.730]  But not enough at the same time.
[08:09.970 --> 08:10.330]  Absolutely.
[08:10.690 --> 08:12.590]  What are some of your fondest memories?
[08:13.510 --> 08:14.090]  Excuse me?
[08:14.170 --> 08:18.150]  What are some of your fondest memories of things that happened on or off stage?
[08:18.150 --> 08:20.650]  I mean, I had the problem of just...
[08:20.650 --> 08:22.190]  Because I had to work until Thursday.
[08:22.450 --> 08:24.950]  And then I took the latest plane.
[08:25.150 --> 08:26.890]  And I was jet-lagged all the time.
[08:27.230 --> 08:31.030]  So, for me, at 6 o'clock it was midnight and so on.
[08:31.430 --> 08:33.110]  So, I joined it all.
[08:33.230 --> 08:35.850]  And it was just one workshop for me all through.
[08:35.870 --> 08:37.030]  Just a little bit for you.
[08:37.830 --> 08:41.090]  I remember some things like the movie you had.
[08:41.710 --> 08:42.190]  Mm-hmm.
[08:42.190 --> 08:42.810]  Stuff like that.
[08:43.010 --> 08:44.410]  And discussions we had.
[08:44.410 --> 08:49.090]  And, I mean, there was some kind of good broadband.
[08:49.710 --> 08:52.970]  So, this lock-picking thing, for example, the mechanical stuff.
[08:53.130 --> 08:53.270]  Yeah.
[08:53.490 --> 08:57.610]  Bringing together also with TCP IP stuff and things like that.
[08:57.750 --> 08:57.950]  Mm-hmm.
[08:58.190 --> 09:00.450]  And, I mean, it was kind of...
[09:00.450 --> 09:01.250]  Yeah.
[09:01.870 --> 09:06.430]  Not really for me able to learn like sitting in a workshop.
[09:06.430 --> 09:09.910]  Because it was just too much at one point.
[09:09.910 --> 09:14.110]  Well, one thing we learned very quickly was that the rooms downstairs just weren't big enough to handle.
[09:14.370 --> 09:15.250]  I didn't think...
[09:15.250 --> 09:15.570]  Orphos.
[09:15.750 --> 09:18.790]  I didn't think the second track would attract that many people.
[09:18.910 --> 09:21.130]  Because we already had a full first room.
[09:21.450 --> 09:21.530]  Oh, yeah.
[09:21.530 --> 09:23.030]  Yeah, but that's our experience, too.
[09:23.150 --> 09:26.010]  So, I saw a little bit how you planned it.
[09:26.130 --> 09:27.930]  Or you wanted to plan it, I should say.
[09:28.250 --> 09:32.550]  So, for example, there was this workshop on GSN and protocols and stuff like that.
[09:32.630 --> 09:34.010]  And it was heavily overrun.
[09:34.150 --> 09:34.270]  Yeah.
[09:34.270 --> 09:38.290]  Because that was just more or less nothing else than technical basics.
[09:38.510 --> 09:40.250]  But that's very interesting for the people.
[09:40.890 --> 09:41.030]  Yeah.
[09:41.030 --> 09:41.530]  And it's...
[09:41.530 --> 09:45.450]  I mean, it's good to have the movie upstairs, of course, and not all the way around.
[09:45.830 --> 09:45.910]  Right.
[09:45.950 --> 09:50.710]  But also, the need for technical basics of understanding of technology is very big.
[09:50.710 --> 09:53.130]  We just didn't have enough space, even though we had an entire floor.
[09:53.310 --> 09:53.430]  That's true.
[09:53.690 --> 10:00.170]  So, I think what we're going to do next time, and I'm pretty certain we'd use the same place, because they were very happy with us, we're very happy with them.
[10:00.310 --> 10:07.190]  There were no problems whatsoever with any of the people, which I think is a tremendous thing when you have 2,500 people in a hotel and everybody behaves themselves.
[10:07.410 --> 10:08.790]  I think that's a great thing.
[10:08.930 --> 10:13.630]  But there's another ballroom in that place that's on a different floor that we're going to make use of next time.
[10:13.790 --> 10:14.850]  On the 18th floor outside?
[10:14.910 --> 10:15.650]  Not on the 18th floor.
[10:15.750 --> 10:17.090]  It's on, like, the third floor or something.
[10:17.390 --> 10:17.930]  Oh, okay.
[10:18.110 --> 10:18.530]  I knew that.
[10:18.610 --> 10:19.510]  There are more rooms.
[10:19.510 --> 10:21.350]  You just got to figure out how to use them.
[10:22.110 --> 10:28.650]  But I really think the volunteers did an amazing job, especially the security people, the network people, the registration people.
[10:29.450 --> 10:32.030]  It all worked together so well around the clock.
[10:32.270 --> 10:42.070]  And what did out this year, which did not work the last time I was here, was we also had lots of people bringing their laptops and having a really good party upstairs.
[10:42.390 --> 10:43.790]  So that was just...
[10:43.790 --> 10:46.790]  Yeah, that was really this 24 hours meeting together.
[10:47.090 --> 10:47.770]  Yeah, I wanted to do it at 6 in the morning.
[10:47.870 --> 10:48.450]  There were people there.
[10:48.450 --> 10:48.610]  Right.
[10:48.790 --> 10:51.210]  I did also, because it was for me at noon.
[10:51.490 --> 10:55.870]  So my jet lag just brought me there at the impossible times.
[10:56.110 --> 10:57.990]  There was always people there having fun.
[10:58.130 --> 10:58.850]  So that was great.
[10:58.990 --> 11:01.070]  And every panel seemed to be well received.
[11:01.330 --> 11:01.790]  It really did.
[11:02.310 --> 11:04.310]  I saw a good crowd just everywhere I looked.
[11:04.370 --> 11:07.710]  Yeah, I mean, it was not always in time, but that's...
[11:07.710 --> 11:08.450]  Oh, no, no, yeah.
[11:08.950 --> 11:11.790]  That seems to happen every time because...
[11:12.570 --> 11:15.830]  Well, for one thing, sometimes there were technical glitches, and that pushed us back.
[11:18.030 --> 11:21.310]  And unfortunately we had the night, so we just kind of pushed things into the night.
[11:21.310 --> 11:23.450]  I mean, I don't know how you excuse us.
[11:23.530 --> 11:26.930]  We're just the Chaos Computer Club, and the same thing happens at our conventions.
[11:27.170 --> 11:28.990]  And then we can always say, oh, that's the chaos.
[11:29.010 --> 11:29.250]  Yeah.
[11:30.170 --> 11:31.530]  The Chaos Computer Club.
[11:31.590 --> 11:32.690]  And we're beyond hope.
[11:33.150 --> 11:34.490]  Well, we were beyond hope.
[11:35.650 --> 11:37.610]  Well, who else?
[11:38.110 --> 11:38.690]  John Johansson.
[11:38.870 --> 11:44.430]  Well, actually the biggest question I've gotten all weekend is John Johansson or Jan Johansson or John Johansson or...
[11:44.430 --> 11:46.410]  How do you pronounce your name properly?
[11:46.850 --> 11:47.510]  John Johansson.
[11:48.290 --> 11:48.510]  Okay.
[11:48.670 --> 11:49.430]  I'll let you say it then.
[11:50.910 --> 11:54.890]  So, now, you're the person that got arrested in Norway for the DECSS code.
[11:55.090 --> 11:56.310]  Well, I wasn't actually arrested.
[11:56.650 --> 11:57.490]  You weren't arrested, okay.
[11:57.610 --> 11:58.070]  Well, not...
[11:58.070 --> 11:59.390]  It wasn't technically an arrest.
[11:59.770 --> 12:00.030]  Uh-huh.
[12:00.530 --> 12:03.050]  But they did come to my house with a search warrant.
[12:03.050 --> 12:04.350]  And they made you go away with them?
[12:04.570 --> 12:04.770]  Yes.
[12:04.970 --> 12:05.110]  Okay.
[12:05.170 --> 12:05.790]  But not handcuffs?
[12:05.870 --> 12:06.210]  No handcuffs?
[12:06.270 --> 12:06.690]  No handcuffs.
[12:06.910 --> 12:07.070]  Okay.
[12:07.110 --> 12:07.550]  They're computers?
[12:07.930 --> 12:08.710]  Yeah, both of them.
[12:09.130 --> 12:09.310]  Uh-huh.
[12:09.390 --> 12:09.650]  Away.
[12:10.510 --> 12:10.710]  Hmm?
[12:11.010 --> 12:12.450]  They are away or...
[12:12.450 --> 12:13.870]  Yeah, they still got them.
[12:14.510 --> 12:16.550]  And your dad too, they arrested him as well.
[12:16.770 --> 12:17.810]  Or took him away as well.
[12:18.070 --> 12:18.590]  Yeah, he detained him.
[12:19.250 --> 12:22.450]  They politely requested their presence without another option.
[12:23.650 --> 12:25.650]  Ah, so we live in the year 2000.
[12:25.830 --> 12:26.070]  Yes.
[12:26.150 --> 12:27.430]  It's no more called arresting.
[12:27.650 --> 12:31.650]  It's just putting it somewhere else or putting prison somewhere else.
[12:31.650 --> 12:38.750]  Well, I'm really glad you were able to come and share your experiences with people because this is a very interesting period for us.
[12:38.990 --> 12:47.970]  You know, I mean, with the trial now, with all this activism that's starting up with hackers, something that has never been seen before, it's a perfect time.
[12:47.970 --> 13:02.490]  I mean, I don't know why they scheduled the trial for the day after the conference, but it resulted in so many people being here and actually having a demonstration outside and bringing a lot of the media into it and filling up the courtroom, which I think is a tremendous thing,
[13:02.670 --> 13:03.650]  a great show of support.
[13:04.510 --> 13:06.330]  And we'll talk more about the trial later on.
[13:06.830 --> 13:10.050]  I certainly hope people keep an interest in that because it's fascinating.
[13:10.050 --> 13:10.730]  It really is.
[13:10.870 --> 13:12.770]  I thought I was going to be bored and I am not bored.
[13:13.330 --> 13:14.530]  I am not bored at all.
[13:14.590 --> 13:15.810]  No, the deposition was going to be boring.
[13:15.930 --> 13:16.630]  The trial isn't...
[13:16.630 --> 13:17.970]  But the deposition wasn't boring either.
[13:18.050 --> 13:20.070]  And by the way, the deposition is now on blinds.
[13:20.110 --> 13:20.330]  It is.
[13:20.450 --> 13:20.610]  Yeah.
[13:20.790 --> 13:21.070]  Excellent.
[13:21.230 --> 13:24.430]  If you want to take a look, just go to the website and you'll see it there.
[13:25.050 --> 13:25.770]  Yes, Mackie, what?
[13:25.850 --> 13:26.650]  You didn't manage to get it up?
[13:26.670 --> 13:29.630]  Well, I got up the story and then we had to come here.
[13:29.630 --> 13:30.350]  Uh-huh.
[13:30.530 --> 13:30.770]  Okay.
[13:30.910 --> 13:31.610]  Well, Mackie's going to...
[13:31.610 --> 13:33.630]  We have a blurb there about the trial.
[13:34.570 --> 13:34.650]  Okay.
[13:34.650 --> 13:35.610]  It'll be up tonight then.
[13:35.710 --> 13:35.890]  Yes.
[13:35.890 --> 13:36.530]  That's what you're telling people.
[13:36.670 --> 13:36.810]  Okay.
[13:36.870 --> 13:38.270]  When we get back from the show.
[13:38.430 --> 13:38.710]  Okay.
[13:38.850 --> 13:40.610]  So we're putting the deposition up tonight.
[13:40.610 --> 13:41.790]  Sorry, I thought it was up already.
[13:42.490 --> 13:44.390]  And that's what I went through two weeks ago.
[13:44.530 --> 13:45.850]  Was it two weeks ago or was it more than that?
[13:46.250 --> 13:46.870]  I think it was two weeks ago.
[13:46.910 --> 13:47.430]  Yeah, I think it was two.
[13:47.590 --> 13:47.910]  By the way...
[13:47.910 --> 13:52.630]  We would have gotten up a lot sooner except that we've just been so crazy with things.
[13:52.750 --> 13:52.890]  Yes.
[13:53.130 --> 14:03.410]  By the way, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you because that maybe has to do with the conference and with the DCSS story and with what changed here in New York.
[14:03.570 --> 14:07.910]  So when I came here, I needed to have a coffee in the hotel lobby.
[14:08.090 --> 14:08.290]  Uh-huh.
[14:08.370 --> 14:09.450]  And there was a free seat.
[14:09.450 --> 14:10.290]  I was very happy.
[14:10.390 --> 14:15.490]  And I sat down and someone came to me from the hotel asking me to not drink while I'm seated.
[14:15.770 --> 14:16.950]  I said, okay.
[14:17.210 --> 14:17.710]  I stood up.
[14:17.890 --> 14:19.350]  Not drink anything or just...
[14:19.350 --> 14:21.550]  Just don't drink anything while I'm seated.
[14:21.550 --> 14:27.070]  So I stood up and I had my croissant in the hand and there was something like a table and I stood there.
[14:27.750 --> 14:32.630]  And a few minutes later, someone else came and asked me not to eat while I'm standing.
[14:34.010 --> 14:34.450]  And...
[14:34.450 --> 14:35.950]  So you started hopping on one foot.
[14:36.310 --> 14:36.450]  Yeah.
[14:36.710 --> 14:36.850]  Yeah.
[14:37.130 --> 14:38.570]  And not that.
[14:38.750 --> 14:44.450]  But I mean also in the elevator, I needed to get out of the elevator at a floor where lots of people were still in.
[14:44.990 --> 14:51.870]  And I didn't knew I was, you know, pushing someone, a woman, very slightly when getting out.
[14:51.950 --> 14:53.630]  And she said, oh, would you please...
[14:53.630 --> 14:54.450]  Oh, whatever.
[14:54.610 --> 14:56.710]  She made a great theater there in the elevator.
[14:57.070 --> 15:00.290]  So this seems to be this zero tolerance stuff.
[15:00.430 --> 15:01.230]  It's culture clash.
[15:01.710 --> 15:03.210]  In Germany, you can stand and eat.
[15:03.310 --> 15:03.970]  You can sit and eat.
[15:04.070 --> 15:05.070]  You can shove in the elevator.
[15:05.230 --> 15:05.330]  No, no, no, no, no.
[15:05.430 --> 15:08.810]  That's the difference between Germany, Bavaria, and Germany.
[15:08.810 --> 15:13.330]  So if you go to Bavaria, you just got the same what you have in New York here.
[15:13.550 --> 15:15.250]  But what did change here?
[15:15.370 --> 15:17.630]  What did happen to this beautiful city here?
[15:17.710 --> 15:18.810]  Well, I know what you're going to say.
[15:18.990 --> 15:20.170]  I'm pretty sure it's the water.
[15:20.170 --> 15:20.510]  I'm pretty sure it's the water.
[15:20.510 --> 15:22.350]  I'm not going to blame Giuliani for not being able to sit down.
[15:22.590 --> 15:22.790]  Oh, okay.
[15:22.970 --> 15:23.110]  Yeah.
[15:23.210 --> 15:26.310]  I mean, he might turn people's stomachs, but it's not really...
[15:26.310 --> 15:27.930]  No, he didn't make any laws.
[15:28.070 --> 15:34.790]  I think you just ran up against some bureaucracy because, you know, I was eating in a chair before and nobody said anything.
[15:34.890 --> 15:36.870]  I'd go for hypertension, but that's okay.
[15:37.230 --> 15:37.410]  Yeah.
[15:37.410 --> 15:37.450]  Yeah.
[15:38.110 --> 15:40.590]  Let's go around the room and see if anybody else wants to say anything.
[15:40.690 --> 15:45.490]  All the microphones are on, so if anybody wants to say something, just raise your hand and start talking.
[15:46.510 --> 15:47.330]  Nobody wants to say anything.
[15:47.410 --> 15:48.410]  All right, Mackie, you want to say something?
[15:48.550 --> 15:50.850]  Well, I guess we could move on to trial stuff then.
[15:51.090 --> 15:51.330]  Uh-huh.
[15:52.170 --> 15:53.090]  Are you ready for that?
[15:53.150 --> 15:53.630]  I don't want to rush you.
[15:53.650 --> 15:54.550]  No, let's move on to trial stuff.
[15:54.730 --> 15:56.150]  We'll talk about H2K stuff first.
[15:56.310 --> 15:57.790]  I don't want to completely...
[15:58.450 --> 16:00.030]  Bernie S., is that you here in the studio?
[16:00.750 --> 16:06.750]  We managed to take the high-speed Amtrak Acela bullet train to get here on time today.
[16:06.970 --> 16:07.030]  Wow.
[16:07.210 --> 16:07.870]  That's got to be cool.
[16:07.950 --> 16:09.210]  You just kind of arrived in the studio.
[16:09.390 --> 16:10.590]  I was expecting to see you on the phone.
[16:11.070 --> 16:11.970]  I mean, hear you on the phone.
[16:11.970 --> 16:12.650]  See me on the phone?
[16:12.810 --> 16:14.090]  I don't have one of those video...
[16:14.090 --> 16:15.150]  That technology isn't quite out.
[16:15.610 --> 16:17.110]  The voice is much higher quality there.
[16:17.830 --> 16:18.990]  Zapp is here from England.
[16:19.130 --> 16:19.410]  Hiya.
[16:19.530 --> 16:19.890]  How are you doing?
[16:20.170 --> 16:20.290]  Yeah.
[16:20.290 --> 16:21.110]  Haven't seen you in a while.
[16:21.430 --> 16:22.110]  Yeah, three years.
[16:22.230 --> 16:22.810]  Yeah, the last one.
[16:23.030 --> 16:23.350]  Yeah.
[16:23.770 --> 16:24.750]  How do you compare the two?
[16:26.430 --> 16:26.750]  Um...
[16:27.870 --> 16:30.510]  It was sort of different because you had like two tracks.
[16:30.510 --> 16:31.450]  Last time you had one track.
[16:31.670 --> 16:31.830]  Yeah.
[16:32.330 --> 16:39.950]  So, it was just trying to figure out what you could go and see and what you wanted to see and then trying to sort of fit it in all so you could see two things at the same time.
[16:40.090 --> 16:40.290]  Yeah.
[16:40.450 --> 16:40.870]  It was tough.
[16:40.930 --> 16:41.410]  Crazy, yeah.
[16:41.410 --> 16:42.290]  It was tough, yeah.
[16:42.490 --> 16:45.050]  But you know, many conferences have like three tracks, four tracks.
[16:45.130 --> 16:46.230]  In fact, we did have three tracks too.
[16:46.390 --> 16:46.530]  Yeah.
[16:46.750 --> 16:49.430]  We had the independent track where people just kind of signed up for their own thing.
[16:49.510 --> 16:49.790]  And that...
[16:49.790 --> 16:53.150]  I didn't even get a chance to see any of those, but I saw the list.
[16:53.190 --> 16:54.210]  And it was full.
[16:54.410 --> 16:56.030]  There were people signing up to do all kinds of talks.
[16:56.750 --> 16:57.970]  The enthusiasm was great.
[16:58.210 --> 16:59.990]  Well, I got my buddy here from South Africa.
[17:00.150 --> 17:00.630]  It's no job.
[17:00.890 --> 17:01.810]  He had a great time.
[17:01.950 --> 17:02.510]  He'll do another one.
[17:02.590 --> 17:03.030]  He'll be back.
[17:03.270 --> 17:03.590]  Great.
[17:03.890 --> 17:07.230]  I think almost every continent was represented.
[17:07.730 --> 17:07.850]  Yeah.
[17:07.950 --> 17:09.270]  I don't think anyone's meant to show that.
[17:09.510 --> 17:11.450]  It's almost Australia though.
[17:12.930 --> 17:13.610]  How are you?
[17:13.850 --> 17:14.030]  Yeah.
[17:14.170 --> 17:15.910]  I'm Crypt from London, UK.
[17:16.970 --> 17:21.590]  I'd just like to say, the conference seemed a lot more political than hacking related.
[17:21.930 --> 17:27.570]  Because a lot of other conferences you just have, here's how you hack, here's how you make things more secure.
[17:27.570 --> 17:27.990]  Mm-hmm.
[17:28.130 --> 17:31.710]  But this one seemed to have a lot of a political slant to it.
[17:32.050 --> 17:32.170]  Yeah.
[17:32.230 --> 17:34.530]  With Jello Biafra as the keynote speaker.
[17:34.890 --> 17:34.990]  Yeah.
[17:35.110 --> 17:37.210]  And a lot of other stuff about hacktivism, which is good.
[17:37.430 --> 17:38.550]  I like that sort of stuff.
[17:38.710 --> 17:38.850]  Yeah.
[17:38.890 --> 17:47.810]  Well, you know, I got so many people coming up to me over the weekend saying that they had lost all kinds of faith in the hacker world.
[17:48.190 --> 17:49.510]  It had become so, like, corporatized.
[17:49.610 --> 17:52.830]  People just talking about money, about their jobs, their careers.
[17:52.830 --> 17:58.770]  And here's this guy, Jello, here are these other people, the robotics graffiti people, and all kinds of other social activists.
[17:58.770 --> 18:01.190]  And us, of course, you know, with the whole DECSS mess.
[18:01.570 --> 18:03.550]  And all of a sudden, it has meaning again.
[18:03.670 --> 18:07.990]  It has some kind of direction, something that we're pointing at, something that we have passion for.
[18:08.130 --> 18:10.150]  And it just made the whole thing really, really exciting.
[18:10.370 --> 18:12.830]  And I thought it was funny, because Jello spoke for over an hour.
[18:13.130 --> 18:19.550]  And the very last thing he said was, you know, I never even touched a computer in my life yet have been able to keep you listening to me for this amount of time.
[18:19.550 --> 18:21.410]  And I think that's just it.
[18:22.850 --> 18:27.930]  They captured it completely, because here's a guy that gets it, even though he doesn't get it technically.
[18:27.970 --> 18:29.270]  He's not a technical person.
[18:29.270 --> 18:30.070]  He admits to that.
[18:30.470 --> 18:32.670]  But he understands the implications of everything.
[18:32.950 --> 18:35.750]  And I think most people got that.
[18:35.910 --> 18:44.370]  It's given me a lot more faith to actually know that there are other people that have the same views as I do, because I was involved in the May Day protest in London.
[18:44.370 --> 18:44.850]  Uh-huh.
[18:45.190 --> 18:47.570]  And I did a bit of, like, activism for that.
[18:48.030 --> 18:48.090]  Uh-huh.
[18:48.090 --> 18:49.750]  But I didn't really think it made a difference.
[18:50.110 --> 18:52.350]  But, obviously, I really now believe it.
[18:52.370 --> 18:52.730]  It does.
[18:52.910 --> 18:53.510]  It really does.
[18:53.670 --> 19:05.910]  And you feel it at a time like this, where people, where you mix communities together, and you see that we're all kind of moving in the same direction, trying to wake people up, trying to make things better.
[19:05.910 --> 19:12.190]  I mean, Bernie, you did a panel on the RNC coming up.
[19:12.350 --> 19:14.070]  Secrets of the RNC DNC.
[19:14.150 --> 19:14.830]  Tell us about that.
[19:15.070 --> 19:15.690]  I mean, that had a...
[19:15.690 --> 19:16.630]  That was in the second track.
[19:16.650 --> 19:19.350]  And I regret putting it there, because I looked in there, and I just saw...
[19:19.350 --> 19:20.470]  There were so many people in there.
[19:20.470 --> 19:21.070]  I was surprised.
[19:21.310 --> 19:21.730]  I was shocked.
[19:21.730 --> 19:30.210]  I didn't think there would be that much interest in it, but I was heartened to see so many people interested in causes at this conference, as opposed to just technical information.
[19:32.290 --> 19:43.370]  Basically, a shapeshifter and I just went over some of the interesting developments in Philadelphia, which is planning to host the Republican National Convention very soon now, starting on the 31st, I think, of July.
[19:44.070 --> 19:46.150]  Well, that's if the police stopped shooting people down there.
[19:46.250 --> 19:51.410]  Yeah, someone just got shot for holding a chair at 33 Station today in Philadelphia, so I wonder what that's about.
[19:52.330 --> 19:55.290]  And you think eating in chairs is bad, and it's a whole different culture down there.
[19:55.290 --> 20:00.370]  See, if he'd been sitting and eating in that chair, then he would have just gotten arrested, as opposed to shot to death.
[20:00.550 --> 20:26.410]  But in any case, shapeshifter actually did most of the speaking, since he's a really dyed-in-the-wool activist, and talked about some of the techniques they plan to use to express opinions about what the Republican Party is doing, its platform, and topics such as media consolidation,
[20:28.250 --> 20:30.950]  WTO-related issues, that sort of thing.
[20:31.290 --> 20:33.010]  I was really surprised there were so many people there.
[20:33.390 --> 20:36.150]  And they're planning stuff for DNC, too, is that right?
[20:36.150 --> 20:37.350]  Yes, L.A.
[20:37.510 --> 20:38.810]  I'm not sure of the date of that, do you know?
[20:39.050 --> 20:39.630]  It's after.
[20:39.950 --> 20:40.470]  Macca, do you know?
[20:41.550 --> 20:42.190]  Mid-August.
[20:42.770 --> 20:44.210]  Yeah, Macca's gonna crash both of them.
[20:44.590 --> 20:44.790]  Ooh.
[20:45.070 --> 20:50.570]  If I can make it to L.A., I go back to school like the following Monday, so it's a stretch.
[20:50.830 --> 20:51.910]  But you live practically in L.A.
[20:52.230 --> 20:54.630]  In fact, according to one of the papers I saw, you do live in L.A.
[20:54.630 --> 20:56.850]  Yeah, that was... I don't know where she got that.
[20:57.790 --> 21:03.610]  Well, if you extend the greater Los Angeles area to 900 miles north...
[21:03.610 --> 21:03.730]  Uh-huh.
[21:04.630 --> 21:05.850]  Yeah, L.A.
[21:05.850 --> 21:06.070]  L.A.
[21:06.130 --> 21:07.910]  does kind of sprawl like that, but...
[21:08.090 --> 21:13.590]  I noticed Philadelphia is going through this massive spruce up campaign.
[21:13.830 --> 21:24.470]  As I took the Acela bullet train up here this evening, I noticed that as I left the station, the city had painted the dirt on either side of the cracks green.
[21:24.770 --> 21:25.230]  Oh, boy.
[21:25.290 --> 21:31.950]  Painted the dirt and the concrete green to make it look like grass was growing when it was just this ugly mound of dirt.
[21:32.330 --> 21:33.830]  Are they gonna paint the homeless people, too?
[21:34.130 --> 21:36.450]  I think they're gonna paint them camouflage color.
[21:37.350 --> 21:41.610]  They got a big line across their belly, which is where the wall of the building meets the sidewalk.
[21:42.030 --> 21:42.830]  Oh, God.
[21:43.710 --> 21:44.050]  Wow.
[21:44.970 --> 21:46.070]  That's really something.
[21:46.130 --> 21:47.810]  Anyone else have any memorable experiences?
[21:48.470 --> 21:49.070]  Part-O-Jack.
[21:49.370 --> 21:50.050]  Come up to the microphone.
[21:50.850 --> 21:52.030]  Part-O-Jack from San Diego.
[21:52.390 --> 21:52.690]  Hey there.
[21:53.650 --> 21:54.250]  I don't know.
[21:54.410 --> 21:59.930]  I think the most interesting experience at H2K was probably the release of Freedom Downtime.
[22:00.210 --> 22:00.810]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[22:00.890 --> 22:01.230]  The film.
[22:01.370 --> 22:01.690]  Oh, boy.
[22:02.250 --> 22:03.050]  I gotta tell you...
[22:03.050 --> 22:03.810]  I'm surprised nobody else mentioned it.
[22:03.910 --> 22:05.850]  Let me just say a couple of things about that.
[22:06.770 --> 22:08.050]  Part-Shot deserves so much credit.
[22:08.090 --> 22:08.550]  He's not here.
[22:08.870 --> 22:09.930]  He's still recovering.
[22:11.030 --> 22:12.570]  You can send him cards and letters.
[22:12.850 --> 22:15.250]  I'll give out the address of the ward later on.
[22:15.250 --> 22:24.630]  But, basically, he spent probably 24 hours a day for several days before the conference putting the final touches on editing.
[22:24.830 --> 22:30.190]  And, of course, because we're using this rather budget-oriented program...
[22:30.190 --> 22:30.950]  Oh, that is horrible.
[22:31.110 --> 22:31.790]  Yeah, well...
[22:31.790 --> 22:33.830]  I was working with it for a little while, and that's just a horrible program.
[22:33.830 --> 22:33.890]  Yeah.
[22:34.050 --> 22:34.890]  What's that called again?
[22:35.370 --> 22:35.770]  EditDV.
[22:35.910 --> 22:36.210]  EditDV.
[22:36.390 --> 22:37.130]  You know, it really...
[22:37.130 --> 22:40.270]  When you look at the finished product, it's really impressive.
[22:40.270 --> 22:43.950]  It really is as far as, like, you can't tell the difference between that and an Avid.
[22:44.250 --> 22:51.950]  But, getting there is really the tough part, and that's what he had to go through over the past few days.
[22:51.950 --> 22:59.930]  And, you know, it got to the point, people don't realize this, that film was being edited in the hotel a mere hours before it was shown.
[23:00.770 --> 23:02.350]  This is like a two-year project, right?
[23:02.350 --> 23:18.610]  Yes, two-year project, not edited with the program, but actually, because the program was messing up so badly and making the audio go out of sync with long pieces, we had to do a bunch of short pieces and then link them together by doing a mini-DV to mini-DV transfer and actually physically editing it together,
[23:18.650 --> 23:21.490]  which is what he spent the first day and a half doing in the hotel.
[23:21.990 --> 23:27.770]  So that's why there might have been a couple of glitches in the actual film, but it came out really well.
[23:27.850 --> 23:36.730]  Of course, there was also that hour delay before the film while we were trying to figure out how to make it play on the screen and go to a second room, because what we wound up doing was filling up two rooms.
[23:37.030 --> 23:41.370]  But sending the video and the audio to the second room was a lot harder than I thought it would be.
[23:41.370 --> 23:45.370]  There was a ground-loop gremlin that we couldn't get rid of the hum, but we finally figured it out.
[23:45.910 --> 23:47.210]  An hour and a half, actually.
[23:47.490 --> 23:47.950]  An hour and a half.
[23:48.030 --> 23:50.210]  I feel so bad about that because it was worth the wait.
[23:50.410 --> 24:03.770]  Well, you know, to me, I don't know if you can experience my pain here, but basically, here it is, the culmination of a two-year effort, you finally figure out how to get, you know, a thousand-plus people there to watch this thing, and you just can't show them anything.
[24:03.810 --> 24:06.810]  They're all sitting there waiting, and nobody can figure out what the problem is.
[24:07.210 --> 24:08.190]  You're not a happy camper.
[24:08.190 --> 24:08.930]  I wasn't happy at all.
[24:08.930 --> 24:14.990]  And you have some of the greatest minds in the audio-visual, you know, community, trying to plug things in and figure it out.
[24:15.050 --> 24:15.850]  It's just not working.
[24:16.010 --> 24:16.730]  Well, we may do.
[24:16.910 --> 24:17.630]  I mean, we have...
[24:17.630 --> 24:22.810]  And the result was still, and that's for me the point, was showing that hacking is a way of life.
[24:22.810 --> 24:29.130]  And so, what this movie did was something, the same feeling, we made a summer camp last year.
[24:29.270 --> 24:37.230]  And that was kind of three days in the middle of the green, you know, with computers out there, with an internet installation on the sea.
[24:37.550 --> 24:39.510]  And it was kind of getting cultural.
[24:39.770 --> 24:42.570]  So it was just, you know, 24 hours and really living it.
[24:42.730 --> 24:46.210]  And that's still something which also comes out through this movie.
[24:46.210 --> 24:47.450]  So you make this experience.
[24:47.650 --> 24:51.210]  And I mean, I see this movie as a very personal one, more or less.
[24:51.370 --> 24:53.990]  So, I mean, it shows the story and it shows on how.
[24:54.250 --> 24:56.770]  How does this fucking planet work?
[24:56.910 --> 24:57.770]  What's going wrong here?
[24:58.130 --> 24:58.410]  And...
[24:58.410 --> 24:58.910]  Oh, excuse me.
[24:59.410 --> 25:00.170]  Where is another lab?
[25:00.370 --> 25:01.330]  This is America.
[25:01.490 --> 25:01.750]  Yeah.
[25:02.070 --> 25:06.790]  I have to remind you, Europeans, this radio here is not the same as in the rest of the world, unfortunately.
[25:06.790 --> 25:07.110]  Okay.
[25:07.770 --> 25:19.170]  So this beautiful thing, things to be explored, explore new worlds and explore what's going on here.
[25:19.630 --> 25:22.670]  And so this was, I think, the result counts.
[25:22.870 --> 25:24.570]  And still, it was too long.
[25:24.690 --> 25:27.670]  It was a little bit catastrophic, some things.
[25:27.930 --> 25:31.670]  But I think the result, it's explaining something and that's good.
[25:31.670 --> 25:42.110]  What we showed was pretty much the rough cut that we're going to refine over the next couple of weeks, hopefully, and get the thing finally done out of the way.
[25:42.250 --> 25:44.710]  And then we'll figure out how we're going to distribute it, where it's going to go.
[25:44.890 --> 25:46.290]  So a lot of people have been asking about that.
[25:46.350 --> 25:47.210]  A lot of people have been asking.
[25:47.470 --> 25:48.310]  So I remember...
[25:48.310 --> 25:59.390]  As I learned on the court today, it should be possible to send a video over the internet very soon, because bandwidth is dramatically growing in every household.
[25:59.390 --> 26:03.350]  Yeah, we're the he's, as pirates, we should be able to figure out a way to boot like this and get it out.
[26:03.370 --> 26:03.710]  How long was it?
[26:03.710 --> 26:06.010]  It was like a 240-minute long movie or something?
[26:06.770 --> 26:07.490]  240-minute?
[26:07.550 --> 26:08.470]  That would be 4 hours.
[26:08.810 --> 26:11.430]  2-hour 40-minute movie.
[26:11.530 --> 26:12.670]  No, it was in New York.
[26:12.970 --> 26:14.330]  It was more like 210, I think.
[26:14.410 --> 26:14.650]  210?
[26:15.030 --> 26:15.870]  Or something like that.
[26:16.010 --> 26:17.910]  But we can, you know, that'll take a few seconds to transfer.
[26:18.530 --> 26:18.870]  So...
[26:19.430 --> 26:21.330]  That's what the MPAA also...
[26:21.330 --> 26:21.950]  240 minutes.
[26:21.950 --> 26:24.970]  Isaac was including the 2 hours of NTSC test patterns.
[26:25.590 --> 26:27.650]  We were doing a lot of test patterns and things like that.
[26:27.650 --> 26:32.730]  That was the most entertaining part of it, because we were all having lots of sing-alongs in the main room while we were waiting.
[26:32.890 --> 26:35.730]  I was afraid to go into the main room, because I didn't know what was going on in there.
[26:35.810 --> 26:39.310]  You know, we were trying to figure it out in the secondary room and piping it into the main room.
[26:39.310 --> 26:39.730]  We were just having a big sing-along.
[26:39.850 --> 26:40.610]  Shadow puppets.
[26:40.610 --> 26:41.450]  Yeah, shadow puppets.
[26:41.470 --> 26:43.050]  That is what the hacker community does.
[26:43.190 --> 26:44.690]  When things don't work out, we make do.
[26:44.790 --> 26:46.210]  We figure out other ways of doing things.
[26:46.310 --> 26:47.570]  And that's sort of the theme of the whole weekend.
[26:47.730 --> 26:51.270]  I was going to start tap dancing in this small room, but I decided against that.
[26:51.270 --> 26:52.210]  Yeah, that probably was best.
[26:54.410 --> 26:59.030]  We'll take some phone calls after we start talking about the trial, 212-209-2900.
[26:59.150 --> 27:04.210]  I'd like to hear from people who are at the conference, their impressions, their feelings, experiences, things like that.
[27:05.590 --> 27:09.030]  Mackie, so we spent the last couple of days at the trial, which started yesterday.
[27:09.350 --> 27:11.790]  And boy, I got to tell you, yesterday was an exciting day.
[27:11.890 --> 27:14.290]  Today wasn't as exciting, but it was still very interesting.
[27:14.290 --> 27:15.850]  But yesterday, wow.
[27:16.170 --> 27:16.610]  I mean...
[27:16.610 --> 27:18.930]  Yeah, I was very impressed with yesterday.
[27:19.370 --> 27:21.130]  I couldn't imagine it going better.
[27:21.230 --> 27:25.470]  I've seen Martin Garbus many times, hung out with him, talked to him, been in a deposition with him.
[27:25.570 --> 27:28.410]  But I never saw him unleashed like that before.
[27:28.410 --> 27:36.130]  The way he completely, what I think, obliterated a witness from the other side, just asking these questions that completely...
[27:36.130 --> 27:40.010]  I don't know if it will reflect this in the court, but I thought it discredited what the person was saying.
[27:40.090 --> 27:40.490]  Absolutely.
[27:40.490 --> 27:42.430]  In a really well done way.
[27:42.690 --> 27:45.250]  And wow, I'm still impressed by that.
[27:45.350 --> 27:47.590]  That's why I think people should come down and witness this.
[27:48.290 --> 27:48.970]  It's history.
[27:49.190 --> 27:56.390]  I mean, it's such a good feeling, you know, because we've been reading all these, you know, motions that they make and transcripts of hearings.
[27:56.590 --> 28:03.610]  And it's very, you know, it's all helpless because you're reading it and you're like screaming at the paper because what they're saying is utter nonsense.
[28:03.810 --> 28:11.630]  But being there in court and being able to, you know, hear testimony and then pass a note and having your question, you know, get asked.
[28:11.790 --> 28:12.050]  Right.
[28:12.290 --> 28:13.610]  Like 15 minutes later.
[28:13.810 --> 28:14.730]  Well, we are the defendants.
[28:14.870 --> 28:15.550]  We should be able to do that.
[28:15.630 --> 28:17.490]  It's extremely gratifying.
[28:18.450 --> 28:24.190]  What's more gratifying to me is just knowing there are people outside, you know, singing DMCA to the tune of YMCA.
[28:24.530 --> 28:25.410]  That was incredible.
[28:25.590 --> 28:27.190]  And holding picket signs all day long.
[28:27.330 --> 28:30.370]  I mean, I think everybody who cared about the case was there yesterday.
[28:30.370 --> 28:31.510]  I just felt that outside.
[28:31.770 --> 28:33.070]  At some point, they all stopped by.
[28:33.390 --> 28:40.950]  That was, you know, I think easily one of the biggest protests that we've had any connection to or in support of us.
[28:41.030 --> 28:42.110]  Well, what did the guards say to you today?
[28:42.230 --> 28:42.970]  You were walking down the street?
[28:43.890 --> 28:45.230]  The protests were on Monday.
[28:45.230 --> 28:45.650]  Uh-huh.
[28:45.870 --> 28:47.130]  It's like 8 a.m.
[28:47.210 --> 28:48.910]  on today, this morning.
[28:49.530 --> 28:51.090]  And I'm two blocks away and a U.S.
[28:51.250 --> 28:55.430]  marshal sees my 2600 shirt and asks me, Oh, are you guys protesting today?
[28:56.750 --> 28:58.770]  So we're really getting this reputation now.
[28:59.050 --> 28:59.470]  We had to...
[28:59.470 --> 29:01.870]  I think the count was somewhere around 60 or 70 people.
[29:01.990 --> 29:03.430]  But it's a good reputation, you know?
[29:03.530 --> 29:05.970]  This is not, you know, like vandalizing webpages.
[29:06.130 --> 29:08.970]  This is actually going out there and demonstrating and making change.
[29:09.090 --> 29:09.810]  I think that's great.
[29:10.070 --> 29:11.630]  It's an evolution type of a thing.
[29:11.750 --> 29:15.210]  But what I should point out is that these were completely independent.
[29:15.210 --> 29:19.090]  This is a New York City Linux users group that organized this.
[29:19.310 --> 29:20.730]  And New Yorkers for fair use.
[29:21.070 --> 29:21.270]  Uh-huh.
[29:21.590 --> 29:23.490]  And that's like, they did this on their own.
[29:23.530 --> 29:27.750]  And I find that incredible that people are that into it and show their support now.
[29:27.950 --> 29:27.990]  Yeah.
[29:28.050 --> 29:30.850]  We were in the courtroom, which of course was also packed.
[29:30.970 --> 29:33.430]  They had to put the press in the jury box to make room.
[29:34.810 --> 29:36.910]  Yeah, I was sitting there afraid, Oh, gee.
[29:37.150 --> 29:40.110]  I hope all the protesters didn't come inside when it started.
[29:40.190 --> 29:44.630]  Because when we got there really early in the morning, there weren't people there yet.
[29:44.630 --> 29:46.690]  But during like a break, someone was like, Oh, yeah.
[29:46.770 --> 29:47.890]  Well, no, it's packed outside.
[29:48.230 --> 29:48.550]  Uh-huh.
[29:48.970 --> 29:55.930]  And the way it works, in case people want to come down there, basically, the way it's turned out, everyone gets in at some point.
[29:56.890 --> 29:58.890]  Usually, you have to wait a few minutes if it's packed.
[29:59.150 --> 29:59.830]  Today, it wasn't packed.
[29:59.930 --> 30:00.750]  It was only half full today.
[30:00.930 --> 30:03.150]  So that's why we'd like to see a lot more people.
[30:03.250 --> 30:05.010]  And you know, I like to see people from both sides.
[30:05.370 --> 30:06.310]  If there are any...
[30:06.310 --> 30:08.030]  Were there any spectators from the other side, do you think?
[30:08.030 --> 30:10.310]  It seemed like they were all press and people that were...
[30:10.310 --> 30:11.230]  Well, there were lots of lawyers there.
[30:11.450 --> 30:11.710]  Yeah.
[30:11.850 --> 30:19.530]  You know, and you have random people from the DVD CCA and people from other cases sort of observing.
[30:19.530 --> 30:21.250]  Well, I just like a packed courthouse.
[30:21.410 --> 30:25.630]  Even if it's packed with people who don't support us, I just want to get people down there.
[30:25.650 --> 30:28.930]  Because I think this is a very interesting case, a very historic case.
[30:28.930 --> 30:31.710]  And I think it's vital that people be part of it.
[30:31.790 --> 30:33.710]  It's not being televised on court TV or anything like that.
[30:33.750 --> 30:34.630]  It's not even being filmed.
[30:34.970 --> 30:36.450]  So come down and witness it.
[30:36.850 --> 30:38.790]  And it's 500 Pearl Street.
[30:39.050 --> 30:40.670]  It starts again at 9 a.m.
[30:41.010 --> 30:41.050]  tomorrow.
[30:42.310 --> 30:45.290]  It's accessible from the 4, 5, and 6 train at the...
[30:45.290 --> 30:45.750]  Brooklyn Bridge.
[30:45.770 --> 30:46.470]  Brooklyn Bridge Station.
[30:46.690 --> 30:48.330]  Is there another subway that goes there too?
[30:48.450 --> 30:49.190]  Let's go to Brooklyn Bridge.
[30:49.290 --> 30:52.850]  Let's go to Brooklyn Bridge Station and walk to the federal courthouse.
[30:53.070 --> 30:53.650]  We walk south.
[30:54.070 --> 30:54.630]  And it's north.
[30:54.630 --> 30:55.150]  It's north.
[30:55.390 --> 30:56.530]  It's about three or four blocks north.
[30:56.810 --> 30:56.970]  Yeah.
[30:56.970 --> 30:58.130]  Room 12-D, you say?
[30:58.450 --> 30:58.570]  Yeah.
[30:58.810 --> 30:58.950]  Okay.
[30:59.350 --> 30:59.930]  Didn't know that much.
[31:01.270 --> 31:02.570]  But anyone is welcome.
[31:02.890 --> 31:06.850]  You probably shouldn't wear political slogans on your shirt, right?
[31:06.990 --> 31:07.690]  Did they tell you not to...
[31:07.690 --> 31:10.190]  Although they let people in with all kinds of shirts on, but I'm just...
[31:10.190 --> 31:12.150]  Actually, the rule is since it's not a...
[31:12.150 --> 31:13.010]  There's no jury.
[31:13.750 --> 31:16.550]  You can, unless the judge tells you not to.
[31:16.810 --> 31:23.750]  And there are a lot of people with the anti-DVDCCA shirts, the anti-NPA ones, and there wasn't a problem.
[31:23.870 --> 31:26.490]  But don't make a point of doing it.
[31:26.490 --> 31:26.690]  Right.
[31:26.830 --> 31:27.570]  Just like in the hotel.
[31:27.590 --> 31:29.330]  People were very, very well-behaved.
[31:29.430 --> 31:31.310]  There were no problems with anybody there.
[31:32.230 --> 31:32.550]  Yeah.
[31:33.750 --> 31:35.330]  We're not going to go into that.
[31:35.670 --> 31:35.710]  No.
[31:36.010 --> 31:36.490]  Well, hang on.
[31:36.630 --> 31:37.510]  I'd like to know about this.
[31:37.630 --> 31:38.630]  Something, what, happened in the courtroom?
[31:38.970 --> 31:39.450]  Not in the courtroom.
[31:39.450 --> 31:40.410]  No, no, no, no.
[31:40.410 --> 31:41.250]  The court was fine.
[31:41.470 --> 31:51.950]  I mean, I was just impressed by the MPAA lawyers having this huge logout of this Linux developing mating list.
[31:52.030 --> 31:56.290]  So they really seem to spend a lot of time, a lot of money on that case.
[31:56.290 --> 32:04.250]  So I just hope that this process gets as well documented as every bit was ever released on DCSS on the mat.
[32:04.510 --> 32:05.070]  Mm-hmm.
[32:05.110 --> 32:05.630]  So...
[32:05.630 --> 32:11.670]  I was very impressed by the fact that the expert defense witness was actually, no, expert prosecution.
[32:12.070 --> 32:12.650]  Mm-hmm.
[32:12.650 --> 32:13.510]  Well, he definitely did.
[32:13.630 --> 32:13.750]  Yeah.
[32:14.910 --> 32:15.510]  That's the one.
[32:15.610 --> 32:18.630]  He was getting paid 30,000 pounds for doing a few web searches.
[32:18.890 --> 32:19.090]  Dollars.
[32:19.590 --> 32:19.850]  Dollars.
[32:20.050 --> 32:20.890]  30,000 dollars.
[32:22.010 --> 32:22.950]  Still a lot of money.
[32:23.010 --> 32:24.070]  That fascinated me, too.
[32:24.230 --> 32:25.070]  And I, you know...
[32:25.070 --> 32:28.530]  I mean, that's a professional horror, is that we're not allowed to...
[32:28.530 --> 32:30.210]  All he'd done was a few web searches.
[32:31.070 --> 32:31.710]  Sure, yeah.
[32:32.030 --> 32:33.850]  So he made 30,000 dollars...
[32:33.850 --> 32:34.430]  He was directed to do those, by the way.
[32:34.450 --> 32:38.790]  He made 30,000 dollars just for coming in and being on that jury box?
[32:38.790 --> 32:39.230]  That's it.
[32:39.230 --> 32:44.190]  Yeah, and I'd like to add that he wasn't a very good expert witness, as it were.
[32:45.050 --> 32:55.390]  Neither of them were particularly impressive, but they did provide much entertainment for the listening audience, which is why I especially urge everyone to come down and watch.
[32:55.490 --> 32:55.590]  What was that quote?
[32:55.590 --> 32:55.890]  There was one quote.
[32:55.890 --> 32:57.750]  I have a few selected out here.
[32:57.750 --> 32:58.690]  There was one quote in particular.
[32:58.810 --> 32:58.950]  Yes.
[32:59.390 --> 33:00.430]  I've got it right here.
[33:01.130 --> 33:02.230]  Now, which one is this?
[33:02.310 --> 33:02.890]  This was the...
[33:02.890 --> 33:02.990]  Shamos.
[33:03.430 --> 33:04.050]  Shamos, okay.
[33:04.210 --> 33:05.090]  Michael Shamos.
[33:05.690 --> 33:06.190]  No, no, no.
[33:06.190 --> 33:09.350]  Shamos is a professor, a college professor from CMU.
[33:09.570 --> 33:14.510]  His job was to figure out how to pirate a movie using DECSS.
[33:14.750 --> 33:18.890]  So he hires this kid that works in two offices down from him...
[33:18.890 --> 33:19.390]  An undergrad.
[33:19.570 --> 33:31.530]  ...to go onto the IRC underground and actually figure out how to trade a movie in DIVX format that DECSS was used to get to that stage.
[33:31.890 --> 33:32.790]  Did I have that right?
[33:32.790 --> 33:38.650]  And here's this guy, and you know, I have professors like him, or I know of professors like him, I should say.
[33:39.550 --> 33:44.470]  And yeah, you know, just because you teach a class on a subject doesn't mean you know anything about it.
[33:44.550 --> 33:51.710]  Because, you know, if you're the only professor at your university who specializes in that, there isn't all that much peer review.
[33:51.910 --> 33:59.670]  You know, you don't know if someone's going to catch you to get tenure and times change and you no longer stay current.
[33:59.850 --> 34:00.970]  Those who know, do.
[34:01.170 --> 34:02.530]  Those who can't, teach.
[34:03.250 --> 34:05.190]  That's going to be a very popular sentiment.
[34:06.150 --> 34:11.750]  And so he had this guy, like my age, doing all of it.
[34:11.930 --> 34:17.530]  And fortunately we're going to get him to testify tomorrow, which is going to be lots of fun.
[34:17.850 --> 34:19.150]  But here's what he said.
[34:19.530 --> 34:30.350]  When asked why he omitted the information about the New York Times linking to DECSS from his declaration.
[34:30.590 --> 34:32.210]  Hang on, he had a declaration?
[34:33.090 --> 34:36.890]  Yeah, he had a draft of it, which included information about the New York Times.
[34:36.990 --> 34:38.390]  And somehow we found out about this.
[34:38.430 --> 34:38.790]  Yes, yes.
[34:38.790 --> 34:40.910]  Well, I assume it got into discovery.
[34:41.290 --> 34:41.730]  Amazing.
[34:41.910 --> 34:46.050]  Okay, so he mentioned the New York Times, which I thought was very important, linking to us.
[34:46.370 --> 34:50.670]  And then he was instructed by the plaintiffs to remove it.
[34:50.690 --> 34:59.650]  And when asked why, why they wanted to do that, he responded that they didn't want to, quote, cloud the case up with First Amendment issues.
[34:59.650 --> 35:00.990]  Yes, that was amazing.
[35:01.190 --> 35:01.350]  Right.
[35:01.370 --> 35:02.230]  That was incredible.
[35:02.750 --> 35:03.610]  That was an incredible quote there.
[35:03.630 --> 35:04.690]  It's like that was the point, huh?
[35:05.870 --> 35:06.090]  Wow.
[35:06.090 --> 35:07.430]  Quite a snicker in the courtroom.
[35:07.630 --> 35:08.330]  It did, it did.
[35:08.450 --> 35:09.310]  I mean...
[35:09.310 --> 35:15.790]  And one of our lawyers kind of pointed out, well, you know, that's a great quote, but he doesn't really do a whole lot legally, but...
[35:16.570 --> 35:17.490]  Oh my goodness.
[35:17.610 --> 35:23.770]  Can you imagine a more pointed that just kind of explains the whole thinking for the entire case?
[35:23.770 --> 35:24.470]  It absolutely does.
[35:24.710 --> 35:36.250]  By the way, I mean, isn't this case as a reason for you to start discussing the end of copyright, or is still the American belief that copyright will exist this millennium?
[35:36.250 --> 35:41.250]  Well, the way I mean, I'm not even going to get into the copyright issue, what's right about copyright, what's wrong about copyright.
[35:41.430 --> 35:43.090]  This is something beyond copyright.
[35:43.670 --> 35:51.030]  You know, copyright is, by definition, protecting the owner of a work, however you see that as being.
[35:51.030 --> 35:52.250]  It's protecting bids.
[35:52.410 --> 35:56.230]  I mean, it's claiming ownership on bids, and it's ridiculous for me.
[35:56.410 --> 35:56.690]  Okay.
[35:56.970 --> 36:07.170]  Be that as it may, what they are doing here, though, is going beyond that and telling you that you cannot use this, use something that you have already purchased the rights to in a particular way.
[36:07.250 --> 36:08.990]  So they're adding conditions to it as well.
[36:09.230 --> 36:16.110]  So whether or not you agree with the concept of copyright, that's kind of irrelevant to this because, you know, they're adding things to it.
[36:16.190 --> 36:21.210]  They're saying that, yeah, you can buy a DVD, you can buy a Linux machine, but if you use them together, you're breaking the law.
[36:21.510 --> 36:21.950]  You know?
[36:22.410 --> 36:23.610]  It's insanity like that.
[36:23.870 --> 36:27.110]  This was a shock to the congressman who walked by at the protest.
[36:27.870 --> 36:28.230]  What?
[36:28.610 --> 36:28.670]  Congressman?
[36:28.670 --> 36:29.350]  Congressman walked by?
[36:29.430 --> 36:30.250]  Yeah, Gerald Nadler.
[36:30.630 --> 36:30.810]  Really?
[36:30.890 --> 36:31.170]  No kidding.
[36:31.430 --> 36:31.590]  Really?
[36:31.770 --> 36:31.870]  Yeah.
[36:32.070 --> 36:33.830]  Tell us who you are first.
[36:34.290 --> 36:35.250]  I'm Billy Donahue.
[36:35.370 --> 36:36.610]  I'm from the New York Linux users group.
[36:36.610 --> 36:39.190]  Oh, you guys deserve a lot of credit for getting people out there.
[36:39.490 --> 36:42.350]  Yeah, I organized the protest at H2K and elsewhere.
[36:42.690 --> 36:42.910]  Uh-huh.
[36:43.730 --> 36:44.090]  And...
[36:44.090 --> 36:45.370]  Wait, there was a protest at H2K?
[36:45.670 --> 36:46.230]  No, no, no.
[36:46.250 --> 36:47.590]  I organized at H2K.
[36:47.590 --> 36:48.750]  Like, come on, you know?
[36:49.810 --> 36:51.010]  No, not that protest.
[36:51.190 --> 36:51.390]  All right.
[36:51.390 --> 36:51.850]  There was one.
[36:53.690 --> 36:55.270]  So, this congressman walked by.
[36:55.510 --> 36:55.750]  What did he say?
[36:55.810 --> 37:00.790]  Yeah, Gerald Nadler walked by and he was absolutely astonished that this was going on right now, that this lawsuit was happening.
[37:00.930 --> 37:08.010]  He didn't understand how copyright law could be used to stop you from viewing DVDs in your own home with your own software.
[37:08.110 --> 37:08.390]  It was amazing.
[37:08.390 --> 37:09.770]  So he actually understood it when you explained it to him.
[37:09.770 --> 37:11.070]  He asked all the right questions.
[37:11.250 --> 37:14.810]  And most people that walked by thought we were talking about Napster or something.
[37:14.810 --> 37:15.950]  It was very hard to...
[37:15.950 --> 37:17.230]  I keep trying to bring Napster into the case.
[37:17.370 --> 37:18.310]  It's got nothing to do with Napster.
[37:18.390 --> 37:20.970]  Like I tell people, Napster is a company.
[37:21.310 --> 37:22.930]  The ECSS is a program.
[37:23.350 --> 37:23.530]  You know?
[37:23.790 --> 37:24.690]  Gerald Nadler was very...
[37:24.690 --> 37:25.150]  It's completely different.
[37:25.170 --> 37:26.050]  What state is he from?
[37:26.330 --> 37:27.150]  He's from New York.
[37:27.830 --> 37:29.690]  I think he has Brooklyn and parts of Manhattan.
[37:30.730 --> 37:37.190]  Maybe Jon should explain a little bit on the history on how that bit got out of that software.
[37:38.130 --> 37:39.890]  And what the problem was...
[37:40.230 --> 37:40.370]  If you want.
[37:40.370 --> 37:40.410]  Yeah.
[37:40.570 --> 37:43.710]  I mean, that could make sense to the people listening to this.
[37:44.070 --> 37:44.190]  Okay.
[37:44.350 --> 37:45.730]  So what's all this about?
[37:46.470 --> 37:48.330]  What it's actually about?
[37:48.670 --> 37:49.030]  Right.
[37:49.110 --> 37:49.830]  The whole story.
[37:52.050 --> 37:54.690]  So why are your computers away?
[37:55.850 --> 38:00.430]  Basically because I published an application called DCSS on the internet.
[38:00.750 --> 38:03.750]  And the MPA didn't like that very much.
[38:04.330 --> 38:06.870]  And how did you get that code together?
[38:07.190 --> 38:08.590]  What does it contain?
[38:09.270 --> 38:14.390]  Well, it contains the CSS auth part, the authorization.
[38:14.890 --> 38:20.090]  That was written by Derek Fokus, a British Linux programmer.
[38:20.750 --> 38:28.330]  And it contains the actual algorithm and the two player keys from the Exing DVD player.
[38:29.410 --> 38:31.310]  And that's basically all it contains.
[38:32.130 --> 38:38.730]  And the only function DCSS has is to decrypt a DVD movie and place it on your hard drive.
[38:39.650 --> 38:39.850]  Right.
[38:40.050 --> 38:41.670]  So that shall be your crime now.
[38:42.050 --> 38:42.310]  Yes.
[38:42.930 --> 38:43.310]  Okay.
[38:43.390 --> 38:43.990]  That's where we're heading.
[38:44.350 --> 38:45.510]  Well, that's the year 2000.
[38:45.630 --> 38:49.150]  You know, and this is something that the Linux people pointed out to me outside the courthouse.
[38:49.150 --> 38:51.190]  And I saw it today as I was walking away.
[38:51.270 --> 38:52.430]  And it's the most incredible thing.
[38:52.690 --> 38:54.010]  In view of the courthouse.
[38:54.010 --> 38:56.970]  If you stand there and you look back, you will see the courthouse.
[38:57.090 --> 39:02.450]  You will see a person there selling pirated videotapes.
[39:03.150 --> 39:04.390]  The film The X-Men.
[39:04.510 --> 39:07.410]  I haven't seen a film in eight months because of this crap.
[39:07.610 --> 39:09.810]  But the X-Men just came out, right?
[39:09.870 --> 39:10.850]  It just came out like a couple of weeks ago?
[39:11.190 --> 39:11.710]  On Friday.
[39:12.010 --> 39:12.410]  On Friday.
[39:12.730 --> 39:12.930]  Days ago.
[39:13.070 --> 39:14.830]  There are people blatantly selling that.
[39:14.970 --> 39:16.570]  Not, you know, in a corner.
[39:16.570 --> 39:18.270]  They have like a little table set up.
[39:18.550 --> 39:20.490]  And these tapes are there.
[39:20.670 --> 39:23.690]  You can get all these new movies for, what, five dollars?
[39:23.850 --> 39:24.550]  Is that what they're selling them for?
[39:24.610 --> 39:24.970]  Five dollars.
[39:25.170 --> 39:26.070]  In view of the courthouse.
[39:26.230 --> 39:28.210]  Well, the assumption is that it's actually on there.
[39:28.450 --> 39:29.350]  Yeah, of course.
[39:29.490 --> 39:31.790]  But even if it's not on there, that's still a crime.
[39:31.970 --> 39:33.490]  You know, that's selling something that's not there.
[39:33.510 --> 39:34.090]  It's a different kind of fraud.
[39:34.310 --> 39:35.910]  But why is this?
[39:35.910 --> 39:42.810]  Why are these people out there selling bootleg tapes while I'm inside being prosecuted for something that isn't even possible?
[39:43.890 --> 39:45.590]  That, you know, nobody has done.
[39:45.730 --> 39:54.630]  Because we've asked everybody on all sides, do you know of a single person who has pirated a DVD, you know, made a pirated DVD through the ECSS?
[39:54.770 --> 39:55.510]  Nobody knows of any.
[39:55.690 --> 39:56.650]  Nobody knows of anything.
[39:56.850 --> 39:59.590]  It's because it's about control and not about piracy.
[39:59.790 --> 40:00.070]  Correct.
[40:00.750 --> 40:03.110]  Well, if they can just say that, I feel a little better.
[40:04.010 --> 40:04.770]  We'll get them to.
[40:04.990 --> 40:05.090]  Yeah.
[40:05.470 --> 40:05.670]  All right.
[40:05.810 --> 40:07.550]  Any other comments before we go to the phones?
[40:08.550 --> 40:09.790]  212-209-2900.
[40:09.970 --> 40:13.630]  If you have experiences about H2K or the trial, please give us a call.
[40:13.690 --> 40:14.670]  The program is off the hook.
[40:15.030 --> 40:16.750]  And again, please come down to the trial.
[40:17.030 --> 40:17.390]  It's...
[40:17.390 --> 40:18.530]  You won't regret it.
[40:18.810 --> 40:19.870]  Take a day off from work.
[40:20.250 --> 40:20.870]  Quit work.
[40:22.670 --> 40:23.330]  I'm serious.
[40:23.590 --> 40:24.610]  This is important.
[40:24.830 --> 40:29.110]  You know, I don't have two weeks to spend on this, but I'm going to be there every day because it's important.
[40:29.550 --> 40:30.810]  You know, we have to do this.
[40:30.870 --> 40:31.630]  We have to show up.
[40:31.630 --> 40:32.650]  We have to witness this.
[40:33.050 --> 40:34.290]  We can't just let these things be passed.
[40:34.470 --> 40:38.810]  This is how things like the DMCA get passed in the first place because nobody is around to witness them.
[40:39.450 --> 40:46.510]  But also, I mean, I think it's great fun and you can learn a lot and you can learn more there than watching hundreds of movies.
[40:47.510 --> 40:50.570]  So, I mean, that's a real good movie there.
[40:51.050 --> 40:51.410]  Absolutely.
[40:51.590 --> 40:52.570]  An interesting one, at least.
[40:52.570 --> 40:53.210]  A horror film.
[40:53.630 --> 40:54.670]  I like Judge Kaplan.
[40:54.770 --> 40:55.270]  Oh, yes.
[40:55.390 --> 40:56.170]  I mean, it has history.
[40:56.170 --> 40:57.230]  I have no trouble with the judge at all.
[40:57.330 --> 40:59.350]  I think he's actually pretty enlightened.
[40:59.490 --> 41:08.010]  I know a lot of people are saying he's, you know, he's unfair, he's pro-MPAA, but, you know, he had a sense of humor and he didn't take, you know, BS from anyone.
[41:08.010 --> 41:10.850]  Well, I think he's gotten a lot more moderate since the press showed up.
[41:11.310 --> 41:11.470]  Okay.
[41:11.690 --> 41:18.650]  And since the recusal motion was filed and he decided that he's hearing a case in which he...
[41:18.650 --> 41:22.130]  What was Judge Kaplan's involvement with the MPA in the past?
[41:23.650 --> 41:25.450]  Actually, I don't have the full facts on that.
[41:25.510 --> 41:25.990]  Do you have it, Mackie?
[41:27.030 --> 41:29.370]  I don't have the facts on that.
[41:29.530 --> 41:30.590]  I don't have the facts on that.
[41:30.590 --> 41:32.490]  Then perhaps elaborating would be a bad idea.
[41:32.490 --> 41:34.890]  He once advised a colleague not to work for Martin Garbus.
[41:35.750 --> 41:38.710]  And I think he had some dealings with the MPA in the past.
[41:38.830 --> 41:48.410]  In other words, well, bottom line is, didn't your attorney file a motion to have the judge recuse himself from this case because of a conflict of interest?
[41:48.570 --> 41:52.130]  And then Judge Kaplan decided that...
[41:52.130 --> 41:56.370]  He decided for himself that there was no conflict of interest with him hearing this case.
[41:56.510 --> 42:02.310]  But I think since that, he's stepped back a little bit from his seemingly pro-MPAA stance.
[42:03.270 --> 42:06.930]  Yes, I believe we entered a motion on Friday.
[42:08.810 --> 42:10.930]  And the judge ruled on it yesterday.
[42:11.250 --> 42:15.110]  And that ruling will be up on the website tonight when we get back from the show.
[42:15.350 --> 42:18.250]  Well, right now it's actually on the U.S.
[42:18.330 --> 42:20.170]  District Court's website as a PDF.
[42:20.790 --> 42:26.370]  It's a little hard to look up, but that's nyusd.uscourts.gov.
[42:26.370 --> 42:28.730]  I believe we just navigate to Judge Kaplan's rulings.
[42:29.010 --> 42:30.790]  Okay, so we're still sorting out all the details.
[42:30.790 --> 42:35.810]  So he said no, and now we have to consider whether or not to appeal that and take it further.
[42:37.470 --> 42:39.450]  I mean, it is possible.
[42:39.790 --> 42:47.070]  I like the benefit of the doubt because this is the first I've seen of him, and he seemed to be handling it very well with a sort of change of attitude.
[42:47.230 --> 42:51.650]  Well, Bernie, you know a thing about having the press in the courtroom when it's an important hearing.
[42:51.870 --> 42:54.110]  Does it change the judge's demeanor?
[42:54.310 --> 42:55.610]  Does it change the outcome?
[42:56.330 --> 43:02.570]  I don't know if it changes the outcome necessarily, but it certainly changes the judge's, as you say, demeanor.
[43:03.150 --> 43:09.790]  I've been in courtrooms before where I've been the defendant, and there was no one present but a Secret Service agent and a police officer.
[43:10.210 --> 43:15.810]  And the judge got away with amazing things he would not possibly have gotten away with if there were members of the press there.
[43:15.990 --> 43:17.610]  Of course, there were no witnesses to what he did.
[43:17.790 --> 43:22.750]  So, in any case, it's good that there were a lot of press people there.
[43:22.910 --> 43:29.510]  I do think the judge stepped back a few steps to appear much more conciliatory than he has in the penist.
[43:29.510 --> 43:32.530]  He does seem to have an understanding of the technology.
[43:33.030 --> 43:36.870]  I don't think we're dealing with somebody who is completely ignorant of how things work.
[43:37.070 --> 43:44.110]  I think he knows when the wool's being pulled over his eyes, and I think he can act on it appropriately.
[43:45.470 --> 43:47.190]  So, we'll just have to see how that works.
[43:47.310 --> 43:48.890]  It's part of the whole judicial process.
[43:50.510 --> 43:53.430]  Anyway, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[43:53.450 --> 43:54.670]  Let's take a listener phone call.
[43:55.190 --> 43:55.710]  Good evening.
[43:55.930 --> 43:56.830]  You're on off the hook.
[43:58.170 --> 43:58.690]  Speak up.
[43:59.890 --> 44:01.510]  Okay, you're going to have to speak up fast.
[44:01.550 --> 44:03.970]  Otherwise, we're going to have to move on because that's just the way it is.
[44:04.050 --> 44:04.310]  Good evening.
[44:04.430 --> 44:04.810]  You're on the air.
[44:06.830 --> 44:08.770]  Yeah, the elevator was pretty bad, wasn't it?
[44:08.870 --> 44:13.430]  Well, hopefully, you got off the elevator and you won't be frightening the people in the hotel anymore.
[44:13.610 --> 44:14.430]  He actually spoke for Track 3.
[44:14.570 --> 44:14.850]  Did he?
[44:14.930 --> 44:15.390]  Did you see it?
[44:15.550 --> 44:15.850]  No.
[44:16.030 --> 44:20.390]  I wouldn't have been caught dead there or alive or in any, you know, stance.
[44:20.590 --> 44:23.490]  If somebody did see Rebels talk in Track 3, we'd like to hear about it.
[44:23.490 --> 44:24.350]  What was it about?
[44:24.590 --> 44:29.090]  It was supposed to be modern technology brings modern inconvenience or something.
[44:29.330 --> 44:30.890]  Modern inconvenience through technology.
[44:31.690 --> 44:35.010]  It's good to be giving talks to people and, you know, see how they react.
[44:35.130 --> 44:36.110]  I don't know if it went off or not.
[44:36.430 --> 44:36.790]  All right.
[44:37.050 --> 44:37.350]  Good evening.
[44:37.430 --> 44:37.850]  You're on the air.
[44:38.230 --> 44:38.790]  Hey, Emmanuel.
[44:39.090 --> 44:39.490]  How are you doing?
[44:41.070 --> 44:45.650]  After my interrupted flight plans coming back from the con, a hell of a lot better than I was.
[44:47.450 --> 44:48.950]  Now, where are you calling from?
[44:49.450 --> 44:50.810]  Canada, Alberta, actually.
[44:50.810 --> 44:51.770]  Okay, great.
[44:52.130 --> 44:53.390]  So, did you have fun at HTK?
[44:53.670 --> 44:55.090]  Oh, it was a blast.
[44:55.570 --> 45:01.030]  I cannot believe I actually got my ass down there for it, but it was definitely well worth it.
[45:01.170 --> 45:02.810]  It was worth the inconvenience.
[45:03.890 --> 45:05.050]  That's how you hear from a lot of people.
[45:05.410 --> 45:05.590]  Yep.
[45:06.630 --> 45:06.750]  Great.
[45:06.850 --> 45:07.730]  What was your favorite part?
[45:08.270 --> 45:09.170]  Meeting the people.
[45:09.670 --> 45:13.430]  I mean, hell, I spent five hours sitting around with a bunch of other guys drinking with Robert Steele.
[45:13.670 --> 45:15.870]  I mean, that was just cool.
[45:15.870 --> 45:16.450]  Yeah.
[45:16.530 --> 45:17.430]  Robert Steele was amazing.
[45:17.890 --> 45:20.270]  He, of course, was a keynote in First Hope, 1994.
[45:20.730 --> 45:20.950]  Yeah.
[45:21.170 --> 45:22.890]  And he wowed people this year, too.
[45:23.510 --> 45:23.730]  Yeah.
[45:24.190 --> 45:25.130]  He definitely did that.
[45:25.310 --> 45:31.630]  And just all the other people around there that you only read about and hear about, and you'll sit down and have dinner with them or whatever.
[45:31.750 --> 45:36.070]  You know, I thought that was so cool because I got to hang out with Jello a couple of times, and it was just so amazing.
[45:36.190 --> 45:38.610]  Here I am hanging out with Jello Biafra, and he's learning.
[45:38.610 --> 45:40.090]  He's learning all about the hacker culture.
[45:40.150 --> 45:42.170]  I'm learning all about what he's up to.
[45:42.390 --> 45:47.310]  And the two worlds are kind of just getting intertwined with each other, which is something that is long overdue.
[45:47.550 --> 45:47.910]  Yeah.
[45:47.910 --> 45:50.330]  And I think we'll feel the effects of this for many years to come.
[45:50.690 --> 45:56.730]  And I like the fact that there was a lot of political tracks on this thing, because it's just getting to the point where we can't ignore it.
[45:57.030 --> 45:57.190]  Mm-hmm.
[45:57.290 --> 45:57.650]  Absolutely.
[45:57.910 --> 45:59.270]  We're all in the crosshairs, aren't we?
[45:59.550 --> 45:59.770]  Yep.
[45:59.890 --> 46:00.250]  Unfortunately.
[46:00.670 --> 46:00.870]  Yeah.
[46:01.030 --> 46:03.370]  Well, it was good to see such an enthusiastic turnout.
[46:03.630 --> 46:04.430]  I wasn't quite sure.
[46:04.570 --> 46:07.210]  You know, I thought a lot of people might react adversely to that.
[46:07.210 --> 46:11.270]  But I guess the community is more enlightened than I thought.
[46:11.650 --> 46:15.250]  I have to ask, who came up with your little entrance into the mock trial?
[46:15.890 --> 46:18.710]  Well, I can't claim any credit for that, because I had no control.
[46:18.710 --> 46:19.370]  I was the prisoner.
[46:19.550 --> 46:20.490]  But, you know, that's another thing.
[46:20.550 --> 46:23.010]  I've got to say, that mock trial went really, really well.
[46:23.170 --> 46:23.730]  That was funny.
[46:24.350 --> 46:27.290]  The judge we had was unbelievable, because this guy's a lawyer.
[46:27.430 --> 46:29.190]  But the judge was just so perfect.
[46:29.350 --> 46:33.050]  He was admonishing people left and right, and he had all the laws down, all the points of order.
[46:33.150 --> 46:35.150]  You could have done that as public theater.
[46:35.310 --> 46:35.890]  It was great.
[46:36.070 --> 46:36.250]  Uh-huh.
[46:37.210 --> 46:39.230]  Speaking of public theater, who saw the CDC session?
[46:39.410 --> 46:40.070]  Oh, God.
[46:41.830 --> 46:44.370]  I still haven't figured out how to tell my parents about that one.
[46:44.790 --> 46:47.370]  But I was not sure that was something for the theater.
[46:47.530 --> 46:50.450]  That also could have happened in a disco or...
[46:50.450 --> 46:50.970]  Oh, yeah.
[46:51.230 --> 46:52.050]  Or in Times Square.
[46:53.610 --> 46:55.290]  Yeah, but that's the CDC for you.
[46:55.550 --> 46:55.770]  Yeah.
[46:56.130 --> 46:58.330]  But, you know, there's all these cows around town, too.
[46:58.590 --> 47:00.190]  And I don't know if it's because of them.
[47:00.310 --> 47:01.250]  They're not very alive.
[47:02.750 --> 47:04.270]  I saw one on a Bell Atlantic truck.
[47:04.270 --> 47:06.090]  I saw in the...
[47:06.670 --> 47:07.250]  In the...
[47:07.250 --> 47:10.090]  I think it was in the Bell logo on a Bell Atlantic truck.
[47:10.230 --> 47:11.050]  It was parked out on...
[47:11.050 --> 47:12.610]  Oh, you had a CDC sticker, you mean.
[47:12.610 --> 47:13.050]  That's what I meant.
[47:13.130 --> 47:14.030]  A couple of dead cows stickers.
[47:14.170 --> 47:17.290]  I mean all these cows on the street, which are just sitting around.
[47:17.430 --> 47:21.410]  And you know, I think some of the CDC presentation was a surprise to us as well.
[47:21.410 --> 47:23.510]  Well, at least speaking of myself, that was the...
[47:23.510 --> 47:28.430]  I was up there, ahem, doing a little musical number.
[47:28.890 --> 47:36.590]  And that was the first time I had heard the song or seen the interesting debauchery occurring on stage.
[47:37.250 --> 47:38.590]  That's a nice way of putting it.
[47:39.410 --> 47:39.710]  Right.
[47:40.010 --> 47:43.430]  I wonder if that's still legal in the United States, what they are doing.
[47:43.590 --> 47:45.050]  Well, we'll find out soon enough, won't we?
[47:46.090 --> 47:47.150]  They know where we live.
[47:47.710 --> 47:49.890]  All right, hey, thanks so much for coming and...
[47:49.890 --> 47:51.030]  Thanks for putting on such a good con.
[47:51.410 --> 47:53.050]  Yeah, well, we'll have to do it again real soon.
[47:53.150 --> 47:56.650]  Maybe sooner than three years, which is what the usual gap between hopes is.
[47:56.690 --> 47:58.250]  The hotel was actually having us back?
[47:58.370 --> 48:00.830]  The hotel was very happy with us.
[48:01.530 --> 48:06.950]  We've got to thank Rhodey and all the security people for doing a tremendous job just keeping things in order.
[48:07.030 --> 48:10.870]  If ever there was any kind of problem, they took care of it before hotel security had to worry about it.
[48:11.470 --> 48:11.830]  And...
[48:11.830 --> 48:12.190]  Interesting ones.
[48:12.410 --> 48:16.590]  Yeah, there were a few, you know, when you have hackers in the building, you have people wandering to places they're not supposed to be.
[48:17.010 --> 48:20.070]  And it was all taken care of in a very diplomatic way, I think.
[48:20.350 --> 48:21.650]  And they're very happy with us.
[48:21.710 --> 48:22.470]  We're very happy with them.
[48:22.830 --> 48:23.770]  I really like that hotel.
[48:23.990 --> 48:24.610]  It's a cool place.
[48:24.630 --> 48:25.890]  You need the second ballroom.
[48:26.030 --> 48:26.670]  Yeah, we need the second...
[48:26.670 --> 48:27.470]  Well, somebody else took us.
[48:27.590 --> 48:28.470]  Somebody's getting married or something.
[48:28.610 --> 48:28.790]  I don't know.
[48:29.470 --> 48:31.210]  I'll just make sure that doesn't happen again.
[48:31.370 --> 48:31.930]  It couldn't wait.
[48:32.250 --> 48:33.290]  All right, thanks again for calling.
[48:33.790 --> 48:35.650]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[48:35.710 --> 48:36.570]  Let's go all the way over here.
[48:36.670 --> 48:36.970]  Good evening.
[48:36.990 --> 48:37.690]  You're on the air.
[48:39.290 --> 48:39.610]  Ah.
[48:40.270 --> 48:40.510]  Yeah.
[48:40.810 --> 48:41.470]  That reminds me.
[48:41.530 --> 48:42.750]  You remember the feedback that we had?
[48:43.650 --> 48:43.970]  Yes.
[48:43.970 --> 48:44.170]  Yeah.
[48:44.270 --> 48:45.030]  Yes, I recall that.
[48:45.730 --> 48:48.530]  When we had Kevin on the line, because we had the social engineering panel.
[48:48.890 --> 48:50.390]  And then we called up Kevin.
[48:50.610 --> 48:53.450]  And I even unplugged my microphone and we were still getting feedback somehow.
[48:53.670 --> 48:54.450]  I don't know how that happened.
[48:54.470 --> 48:56.170]  Probably from the phone itself or something.
[48:56.390 --> 48:56.610]  Yeah.
[48:56.790 --> 48:59.130]  Well, you can't really disconnect that or you don't have the person on the phone.
[48:59.250 --> 48:59.910]  Break it in half.
[49:00.110 --> 49:01.090]  Now, here's a story.
[49:01.350 --> 49:02.910]  How many of you were at the social engineering panel?
[49:03.610 --> 49:04.190]  I was.
[49:04.210 --> 49:05.910]  We had no planning for that whatsoever.
[49:05.910 --> 49:25.270]  But basically, somebody came up to me with a little computer printout of a memo that was being sent around saying that AT&T Corporate Security should be extremely careful this weekend because there's a hacker conference and they're planning a social engineering panel and they were going to try and find out information from people they shouldn't know.
[49:25.850 --> 49:27.490]  So we thought this was pretty funny.
[49:27.490 --> 49:39.250]  So what we wound up doing was just calling up AT&T Corporate Security and asking them for all the info on this hacker conference and acting very outraged that such a thing could even be allowed to happen in this country.
[49:40.570 --> 49:50.870]  And after a while, after about, what, 10 minutes of this, the person asked, well, who is it that, you know, obviously you have to be an AT&T employee to talk to AT&T Corporate Security.
[49:51.270 --> 49:57.810]  So they asked, well, who, you know, who is this and how do I reach you and how come you're not in the corporate directory?
[49:58.130 --> 49:58.290]  Whoops.
[49:58.570 --> 50:03.290]  And we said, well, there's a good reason for that, because this is our first phone call.
[50:03.770 --> 50:14.910]  What happened after that was, apparently, I don't know if this is even true, but apparently they made a phone call to either the hotel or somebody else saying that people were trying to break into their mainframe.
[50:15.330 --> 50:15.650]  Aww.
[50:16.310 --> 50:22.650]  I don't know if they consider like the guy who answers the phone on corporate security to be a mainframe, but basically we were just having a little fun with his head.
[50:22.730 --> 50:24.110]  A big, stupid piece of metal.
[50:24.110 --> 50:25.190]  Okay, well, maybe.
[50:25.950 --> 50:27.930]  To his credit, the guy caught on eventually.
[50:28.410 --> 50:31.250]  Well, he caught on after he realized he couldn't find us, but he hung up.
[50:31.390 --> 50:37.650]  After everybody stopped laughing and cheering, which took about two minutes, he wasn't there anymore, so we weren't able to chat further.
[50:38.070 --> 50:38.830]  But it was cool.
[50:39.010 --> 50:40.270]  That's the thing with the social engineering panel.
[50:40.350 --> 50:42.550]  You really got to trust the audience to keep quiet.
[50:42.550 --> 50:43.450]  I mean, this was great.
[50:43.630 --> 50:44.970]  Well, of course, it didn't matter in the other room, did it?
[50:45.050 --> 50:45.230]  No.
[50:45.230 --> 50:49.670]  Because we couldn't hear them there, but in the main place we were speaking from, just holding it in.
[50:49.970 --> 50:51.630]  I saw people were having difficulty with that.
[50:51.750 --> 50:55.890]  A couple of people passed out, but, you know, that's what you got to do sometimes.
[50:56.070 --> 50:56.910]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[50:57.050 --> 50:57.450]  Good evening.
[50:57.630 --> 50:58.470]  You're on off the hook.
[51:00.550 --> 51:01.270]  Speak up, please.
[51:02.090 --> 51:02.790]  Hello, Emmanuel.
[51:03.190 --> 51:03.370]  Yeah.
[51:03.490 --> 51:04.070]  Yeah, boy.
[51:04.370 --> 51:06.150]  You know, he must have 14 phones.
[51:06.250 --> 51:06.730]  Let's go over here.
[51:06.890 --> 51:07.250]  Good evening.
[51:07.250 --> 51:07.790]  You're on the phone.
[51:07.990 --> 51:08.450]  On the air.
[51:09.150 --> 51:09.890]  Oh, hello, Emmanuel.
[51:10.070 --> 51:10.430]  How are you doing?
[51:10.770 --> 51:12.510]  I just have a couple of things to say.
[51:13.350 --> 51:24.370]  One, I'd like to say HTK was one of the greatest conferences I've ever been to, and I'd like to say thanks to all the volunteers who devoted their time and whatever money they might have to this conference.
[51:24.970 --> 51:28.910]  I just have a couple of questions about the court.
[51:29.250 --> 51:29.650]  Okay.
[51:30.690 --> 51:33.410]  Will there be court proceedings available any time this week?
[51:34.030 --> 51:35.430]  We're going to have the...
[51:35.430 --> 51:41.010]  As soon as tonight, I hope, we're going to have the transcript from yesterday, and we'll be putting those up on a daily basis.
[51:41.210 --> 51:44.930]  So they should be going up the day after on 2600.com.
[51:44.930 --> 51:47.590]  You should be able to actually see what happened in court the day before.
[51:48.070 --> 51:48.670]  Oh, that's good.
[51:49.090 --> 51:54.870]  And I'm just wondering, will Freedom Down Time be available in like, you know, Blockbuster or some other video stores?
[51:55.090 --> 51:57.770]  I don't know about Blockbuster, but here's what we're doing.
[51:57.850 --> 51:59.830]  We're going to be fixing some of the glitches.
[52:00.030 --> 52:01.530]  We're going to be shaving it down a little bit.
[52:02.230 --> 52:03.570]  Well, of course we're going to put it on DVD.
[52:04.310 --> 52:04.630]  Yeah.
[52:04.850 --> 52:07.270]  Well, we'll put all kinds of fun things on that DVD, but we're going to get into that later.
[52:07.270 --> 52:09.150]  You're going to put hard copyright on it.
[52:09.570 --> 52:10.770]  Well, we're going to have to figure out...
[52:10.770 --> 52:12.870]  Let those MPAA guys fight it for you, huh?
[52:12.910 --> 52:13.390]  Oh, absolutely.
[52:13.610 --> 52:13.850]  Absolutely.
[52:14.370 --> 52:21.410]  But we'll have to find out if we can get this thing distributed in any other way and then eventually put it out on DVD, videotape, whatever.
[52:22.130 --> 52:25.130]  We'll have details on that in probably about a month, I'd say.
[52:25.430 --> 52:25.630]  Alright.
[52:25.630 --> 52:26.190]  Maybe a couple of weeks.
[52:26.670 --> 52:27.730]  And just another question.
[52:27.730 --> 52:33.390]  Do they allow recording devices in courtroom if I want to come down there with a Walkman and just record whatever time?
[52:33.390 --> 52:33.690]  They do not.
[52:33.910 --> 52:35.170]  They are very clear about that.
[52:35.270 --> 52:36.230]  They don't allow things like that.
[52:36.510 --> 52:37.710]  In fact, they take your phone.
[52:37.850 --> 52:38.990]  You have to stash your phone.
[52:39.110 --> 52:41.150]  But they do not take your computer.
[52:41.830 --> 52:42.950]  They don't take your computer?
[52:43.090 --> 52:43.250]  No.
[52:44.290 --> 52:44.610]  Wow.
[52:44.850 --> 52:46.410]  Well, I think they know they don't take computers.
[52:46.510 --> 52:47.710]  I don't think it's a secret, but...
[52:47.710 --> 52:50.270]  I won't tell you what you can do with a computer.
[52:51.830 --> 52:53.350]  You won't tell us what you can do with a computer?
[52:53.470 --> 52:54.690]  I will not.
[52:56.130 --> 52:57.610]  Alright, thanks for the call.
[52:57.770 --> 53:00.130]  Let's see if we can squeeze in a couple more.
[53:00.350 --> 53:02.250]  Let's go to a non-ribble line.
[53:02.310 --> 53:03.030]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[53:04.350 --> 53:04.670]  Hello.
[53:04.670 --> 53:04.990]  Hi.
[53:05.310 --> 53:05.850]  Hey, it's Shana.
[53:05.950 --> 53:06.390]  How are you?
[53:06.690 --> 53:06.850]  Hey, Shana.
[53:06.970 --> 53:08.410]  Thanks for prosecuting me.
[53:08.770 --> 53:09.490]  Oh, you're welcome.
[53:09.790 --> 53:10.770]  Good, I'm glad you like that.
[53:10.850 --> 53:14.670]  Shana was the prosecutor in the mock trial, and she almost won from what I heard.
[53:14.830 --> 53:29.910]  You know, it's funny about that, actually, because I talked to the bailiff afterwards, and apparently when the verdict came back, Shana was nowhere to be found, but someone did pass a note forward, which he saved until afterwards, and the note read something to the effect of,
[53:30.430 --> 53:34.970]  no, guys, really, it's okay, you can let him go, signed, the plaintiff.
[53:36.970 --> 53:39.510]  Now, Bernie, you did a great job as Jack Valente.
[53:39.710 --> 53:40.990]  You want to tell us something about that performance?
[53:41.230 --> 53:42.350]  Well, we had no script.
[53:42.790 --> 53:44.770]  We just sort of winged it.
[53:44.770 --> 53:59.230]  But as I was sitting there, as the proceedings were going on, I'm thinking, what would be the perfect stunt, something that would be appropriate for someone like Jack Valente to do, symbolic of his background and goals?
[54:00.290 --> 54:03.370]  And I had taken my wallet out of my pocket, because I don't like sitting on it.
[54:03.410 --> 54:03.870]  It's uncomfortable.
[54:04.250 --> 54:06.550]  And so I pulled out all the money in my wallet.
[54:06.670 --> 54:07.950]  Not very much, but it was a bunch of bills.
[54:08.490 --> 54:09.030]  What's that?
[54:09.030 --> 54:10.490]  Apparently it's so thick.
[54:10.690 --> 54:12.050]  My God, $100 bills.
[54:12.270 --> 54:14.710]  They were like, well, I had to stay at the hotel.
[54:14.890 --> 54:19.690]  The rooms were not inexpensive, but compared to other rooms in New York, they're reasonable.
[54:20.030 --> 54:28.950]  In any case, I just started counting my money and sort of caressing it and fondling it in a very Valente-ish way.
[54:29.110 --> 54:29.690]  Oh, yes.
[54:29.690 --> 54:38.510]  And slipping money to my counsel, who was sitting to my right, whenever she would get an objection sustained.
[54:39.170 --> 54:43.810]  Also slipping money to the jurors here and there, some of whom accepted it, some of whom...
[54:43.810 --> 54:47.450]  Actually, didn't some of the jurors actually throw money back to you, Emmanuel?
[54:47.650 --> 54:48.970]  Yeah, I got some money out of it.
[54:49.130 --> 54:52.530]  And, of course, one of the jurors offered me a beer.
[54:52.750 --> 54:53.370]  It was kind of cool.
[54:53.650 --> 54:56.330]  Well, I intoxicated most of the jury beforehand.
[54:56.950 --> 54:59.490]  But anyway, so that's not what I wanted to talk about.
[54:59.690 --> 55:00.110]  I'm sorry.
[55:00.310 --> 55:03.510]  But anyway, so, by the way, the movie is 160 minutes long.
[55:03.530 --> 55:04.190]  It is 240.
[55:04.190 --> 55:05.030]  I timed it.
[55:05.070 --> 55:08.990]  And it's not even counting the NTS test panel or NTSC test panel.
[55:09.410 --> 55:10.830]  Also, you can take the N.R.
[55:10.890 --> 55:13.010]  down to Canal Street, too, down to the courthouse.
[55:13.190 --> 55:13.410]  Okay.
[55:13.570 --> 55:29.610]  And apparently, the only people who are annoyed with the fact that the con was political, because, see, I thought that was just lovely, but the only people who didn't like that was Drew Alrickson from ZDNet, who posted this whole thing today on ZDNet about why DEF CON is going to beat H2K.
[55:29.690 --> 55:30.430]  Blah, blah, blah.
[55:30.870 --> 55:31.730]  I saw that.
[55:31.970 --> 55:32.450]  Oh, I know.
[55:32.510 --> 55:33.550]  I was like, oh, my God.
[55:33.630 --> 55:42.890]  I could not believe the fact he says, oh, and then they had this guy, Jello Biafra, from the Dead Kennedys, a band that broke up before most of the attendees were born.
[55:43.330 --> 55:45.170]  So he has nothing interesting to say, obviously.
[55:45.290 --> 55:45.990]  Oh, yeah, of course.
[55:46.150 --> 55:47.550]  Well, he's old, you know.
[55:47.730 --> 55:49.290]  Yeah, well, tell that to the rapt audience.
[55:49.490 --> 55:53.910]  Personally, I loved, oh, my God, I'm still glowing after all of that.
[55:53.910 --> 55:55.790]  I was disgusted, frankly.
[55:56.070 --> 55:57.150]  I can't wait to read this article.
[55:57.310 --> 55:58.590]  It's the most ridiculous thing.
[55:58.930 --> 55:59.130]  Oh, it's horrible.
[55:59.250 --> 56:03.070]  And the people who've talked back, too, on the comment board, they're horrible.
[56:03.250 --> 56:05.170]  They're really scary establishment people.
[56:05.270 --> 56:05.450]  Oh, yeah.
[56:05.450 --> 56:06.370]  I wrote a very nasty...
[56:06.370 --> 56:08.530]  Well, you know, I mean, I'm sick of the establishment people.
[56:08.650 --> 56:10.210]  They have the establishment, for God's sake.
[56:10.230 --> 56:10.930]  I don't like the establishment people.
[56:10.930 --> 56:12.190]  Keep out of our world.
[56:12.510 --> 56:12.750]  They're not nice.
[56:23.970 --> 56:27.050]  Who I hadn't met previously, and everybody in the studio.
[56:27.330 --> 56:28.810]  And so it was great, though.
[56:28.890 --> 56:29.670]  It was an excellent time.
[56:29.810 --> 56:34.310]  Everybody was just really great, really well-behaved, I guess.
[56:34.450 --> 56:34.810]  I don't know.
[56:34.870 --> 56:39.090]  I don't think we should tell people about behavior, because everybody's pretty mature and cool about that.
[56:39.090 --> 56:42.810]  Well, no, I think actually that is a default, that people do behave themselves.
[56:43.070 --> 56:43.310]  Oh, yeah.
[56:43.490 --> 56:47.870]  And when they're, you know, kind of led in a certain direction, yeah, people do misbehave.
[56:47.970 --> 56:50.410]  But the thing is, you know, don't lead them in that direction.
[56:50.690 --> 56:51.370]  Act responsibly.
[56:51.370 --> 56:53.710]  And I think we've shown that time and time again.
[56:53.710 --> 56:55.090]  Of course, the media doesn't get it.
[56:55.410 --> 56:56.310]  But so what?
[56:56.310 --> 56:56.990]  We get it.
[56:57.070 --> 56:59.230]  And I think this weekend we had a lot of fun with it.
[56:59.610 --> 56:59.770]  Right.
[56:59.950 --> 57:00.130]  Okay.
[57:00.290 --> 57:01.130]  So I'll talk to you guys later.
[57:01.230 --> 57:01.350]  Bye.
[57:01.370 --> 57:02.310]  Thanks for your help, Shana.
[57:02.410 --> 57:02.630]  Uh-huh.
[57:02.810 --> 57:03.030]  Bye.
[57:03.370 --> 57:05.170]  You know, I think that was kind of a trend.
[57:05.350 --> 57:16.350]  There were a good number of people who going into it had some, were a little bit apprehensive, trying to decide if they're going to go to one or the other, just DEF CON or H2K, and thinking, oh, I know.
[57:16.430 --> 57:17.570]  You know, I don't think there's a comparison.
[57:17.850 --> 57:18.010]  H2K is so political.
[57:21.370 --> 57:22.950]  It was apprehensive going in.
[57:23.050 --> 57:23.770]  It was like, oh, wow.
[57:24.010 --> 57:25.910]  Because all the panels fit together.
[57:26.010 --> 57:27.010]  You know, it made sense.
[57:27.250 --> 57:29.630]  A lot of people wondered, well, why is Jell-O-B offer speaking?
[57:29.870 --> 57:29.990]  Right.
[57:30.130 --> 57:34.950]  But as soon as they heard it, they, well, with the exception of Isaac, he doesn't get anything.
[57:35.430 --> 57:37.410]  I tend to agree with the ZDNet fellow.
[57:37.610 --> 57:38.210]  Isaac, like guns?
[57:38.210 --> 57:38.970]  You don't have to read that article.
[57:39.650 --> 57:41.330]  Yeah, don't get me started.
[57:41.590 --> 57:42.630]  Yeah, antagonizing.
[57:43.010 --> 57:44.070]  There's a little sign here.
[57:44.250 --> 57:44.650]  Don't antagonize.
[57:44.650 --> 57:51.190]  Isaac, even though you were disgusted with all the political talk and all the progressive movement type things, you still had something to do, right?
[57:51.290 --> 57:51.390]  Oh, yeah.
[57:51.390 --> 57:52.370]  There was still stuff going on.
[57:52.470 --> 57:54.150]  So it's not like we shut anybody out.
[57:54.230 --> 57:54.730]  I never left.
[57:54.770 --> 57:56.230]  Attila the Hun could have come and had fun.
[57:56.370 --> 57:56.970]  You know, it's...
[57:56.970 --> 57:57.610]  I never left.
[57:57.630 --> 57:59.170]  I was awake the entire 82 hours.
[57:59.310 --> 58:04.190]  So it's not like something is just geared towards one group of people and there's nothing for anybody else.
[58:04.190 --> 58:05.710]  And that's what I think is important to do.
[58:06.050 --> 58:09.230]  Now, I don't think, you know, we should get into this comparison between conferences.
[58:09.230 --> 58:13.030]  I think what H2K and what the H2K conferences are, are unique.
[58:13.250 --> 58:13.430]  Yes.
[58:13.430 --> 58:14.970]  I don't think they happen anywhere else.
[58:15.010 --> 58:18.770]  And I think it's also unique to New York City because this is a very crazy type of a place.
[58:18.770 --> 58:20.970]  You can only do certain kinds of things here.
[58:21.090 --> 58:22.410]  They don't work anyplace else.
[58:22.930 --> 58:26.310]  So that's why, you know, I'm looking forward to the next one, which will hopefully be even crazier.
[58:26.950 --> 58:28.590]  We're going to fit one more phone call in.
[58:28.670 --> 58:29.110]  Then we've got to go.
[58:29.210 --> 58:29.470]  Good evening.
[58:29.530 --> 58:29.950]  You're on the air.
[58:30.390 --> 58:31.030]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[58:31.270 --> 58:31.650]  How are you doing?
[58:32.250 --> 58:37.230]  I was wondering, how many people caught Richard Stallman during the third track?
[58:37.630 --> 58:39.530]  How many people saw Richard Stallman?
[58:39.750 --> 58:40.570]  Yeah, it was great.
[58:40.750 --> 58:41.910]  Yeah, I heard he was great.
[58:42.050 --> 58:43.590]  And I wish I had known he was coming sooner.
[58:43.670 --> 58:44.750]  I would have put him on the first track.
[58:45.070 --> 58:45.310]  Yeah.
[58:45.510 --> 58:47.830]  He was kind enough to come to the protest on Monday as well.
[58:48.030 --> 58:48.250]  Yeah.
[58:48.550 --> 58:49.450]  That was really cool.
[58:49.610 --> 58:50.730]  Yeah, CDC was fun.
[58:50.730 --> 58:51.550]  I got a t-shirt.
[58:51.830 --> 58:52.590]  It was cool.
[58:53.030 --> 58:54.270]  Let's do this next year, all right?
[58:54.390 --> 58:54.590]  Bye.
[58:54.730 --> 58:54.870]  Yeah, yeah.
[58:54.870 --> 58:55.810]  Okay, thanks for coming.
[58:56.030 --> 58:57.130]  Thanks for taking part.
[58:57.650 --> 59:02.270]  And I want to thank everybody in the room for being here and for taking part in everything.
[59:02.490 --> 59:04.550]  And please, everybody, come to the trial.
[59:04.770 --> 59:04.910]  Please.
[59:05.090 --> 59:06.990]  It's the first trial we've ever had.
[59:07.870 --> 59:09.450]  And hopefully it'll be the last.
[59:09.610 --> 59:13.230]  And also, I mean, there was one thing I would like to compare.
[59:13.390 --> 59:17.770]  We had this trial theater stuff with the money waving of Bernie here.
[59:17.770 --> 59:21.370]  And, I mean, it's not so different from reality.
[59:21.370 --> 59:32.690]  What we saw yesterday when this university professor was there, and he was also asked how much he earned, and that says, they had some kind of a secret handshake protocol with a water glass, I guess.
[59:33.130 --> 59:33.650]  So, yeah, yeah.
[59:33.650 --> 59:35.390]  There were things going on.
[59:35.490 --> 59:39.730]  You see, if you're in the audience, you can catch things like that, and you can tell us.
[59:40.250 --> 59:41.230]  So, again...
[59:41.230 --> 59:44.350]  I like how his assistant ran out when Garbus called him on it.
[59:44.350 --> 59:50.750]  Like, I'm sure Eric, the assistant, is not here in the courtroom, and the guy's like, uh-oh, looking around and just hurries out.
[59:50.770 --> 01:00:01.770]  Real quick on the signaling, that was one of the things I wanted to mention, was that Marty today, our lawyer, called one of them on it and said in the middle of a phrase, you know, stop signaling the witness.
[01:00:01.930 --> 01:00:07.590]  And the judge said, if he's signaling the witness, the president is flying around in the back of the courtroom.
[01:00:08.350 --> 01:00:08.630]  Uh-huh.
[01:00:09.470 --> 01:00:11.930]  Okay, well, you see, you can catch little gems like that.
[01:00:11.930 --> 01:00:17.670]  Again, the information is 500 Pearl Street, that's where the courthouse is, starts tomorrow morning at 9.
[01:00:18.230 --> 01:00:20.230]  So that's Thursday morning at 9, Friday morning at 9.
[01:00:20.470 --> 01:00:26.670]  Take a day, come on down, come down in the afternoon, come down in the morning, take the 456, was it N-R?
[01:00:26.850 --> 01:00:28.350]  N-R is to the courthouse, yeah.
[01:00:28.350 --> 01:00:29.590]  Okay, to Brooklyn Bridge Station.
[01:00:29.590 --> 01:00:29.930]  Just take the 456.
[01:00:30.190 --> 01:00:31.150]  Yeah, Brooklyn Bridge Station.
[01:00:31.530 --> 01:00:32.950]  Ask for where the federal courthouse is.
[01:00:33.150 --> 01:00:35.630]  It's one block away, and, you know, we'll see you there.
[01:00:36.190 --> 01:00:39.610]  Yeah, I wanted to announce that we're having a Linux meeting tomorrow, a Linux users group meeting.
[01:00:39.610 --> 01:00:46.570]  You can come to the IBM building on 57th and Madison at 6.30, and if you are running Linux on your computer or you want to, please come down.
[01:00:46.630 --> 01:00:47.090]  We can help you.
[01:00:47.430 --> 01:00:53.470]  Okay, thanks again to all the Linux people, the open source people, the net activists, the hacktivists, whatever is out there.
[01:00:53.790 --> 01:00:56.350]  Please, thanks for what you do.
[01:00:56.490 --> 01:01:01.670]  Thanks for keeping us going, and we hope to see you there and in the future.
[01:01:01.950 --> 01:01:03.390]  Until next week, Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:01:03.510 --> 01:01:03.690]  Good night.
[01:01:58.510 --> 01:02:04.410]  From July 11th until the 30th, Lincoln Center Festival 2000 presents Caribbean Roots.
[01:02:04.530 --> 01:02:07.750]  A look at Calypso, Soca, Reggae, Compa, and more.
[01:02:07.970 --> 01:02:13.690]  On Monday, July 24th, the mystic revelation of Rastafari kicks off the festival with their first U.S.
[01:02:13.730 --> 01:02:15.470]  appearance in 25 years.
[01:02:15.470 --> 01:02:22.870]  Bookman Experience and Mizik Racine present the music and rhythms of Haiti on Wednesday, July 26th.
[01:02:23.150 --> 01:02:29.330]  Linton Kwesi Johnson, Dennis Bovel, and David Rudder headline a night of Griots of the West Indies on Thursday.