[00:01.530 --> 00:09.830]  I'm Barbara Numerie Aziz and I'd like you to join me and our Tahrir staff every Tuesday night at 9 o'clock.
[00:09.830 --> 00:12.650]  That's Tuesdays from 9 to 10 p.m.
[00:12.990 --> 00:18.610]  here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:18.630 --> 00:22.330]  You're sure to find something new and sometimes controversy.
[00:33.470 --> 00:36.550]  That's coming up in just one hour's time here on WBAI in New York.
[00:36.790 --> 00:38.390]  Right now, though, it's 8 o'clock.
[00:38.630 --> 00:41.030]  And that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[00:47.920 --> 00:49.940]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:50.400 --> 00:52.520]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.440 --> 00:55.520]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:03.770 --> 01:06.450]  Bum, dilly, bong, but the best expect the worst.
[01:07.030 --> 01:08.990]  I hope that's understood.
[01:09.370 --> 01:10.090]  Bum, dilly, bong!
[03:20.010 --> 03:22.690]  You know, someone deserves a name.
[03:25.450 --> 03:27.530]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:28.970 --> 03:29.710]  Good evening, Isaac.
[03:30.270 --> 03:31.110]  Hi, how are you doing?
[03:31.210 --> 03:31.750]  Evening, Alex.
[03:32.190 --> 03:32.670]  How are you doing?
[03:32.850 --> 03:33.470]  Good evening, Bernie.
[03:34.110 --> 03:35.270]  Good evening from Philadelphia.
[03:36.810 --> 03:39.850]  It's been, whoa, it's been one heck of a week here.
[03:40.190 --> 03:40.910]  How am I doing?
[03:40.970 --> 03:41.610]  I'm doing okay.
[03:41.810 --> 03:42.290]  I'm doing fine.
[03:43.490 --> 03:45.530]  Oh, yes, it's just been one of those weeks, you know?
[03:45.710 --> 03:45.890]  Yeah.
[03:46.170 --> 03:51.490]  You know, you have a bit of a cold at one point, you lose a multi-million dollars at the other point.
[03:52.050 --> 03:54.330]  It's, you know, it's just one of those things.
[03:54.570 --> 03:55.330]  But yeah, man.
[03:55.970 --> 03:57.470]  The lows and the lows.
[03:57.470 --> 03:59.470]  Yeah, that's something.
[03:59.610 --> 04:04.270]  I'm sure a lot of people listening right now have heard the news before we even have to tell them the news.
[04:04.510 --> 04:13.030]  In fact, I'm sure a lot of people on their way to that other radio station that get snagged by us on the way, and they just want to find out who these weird people are talking.
[04:13.030 --> 04:16.070]  I'm sure you already heard the news, too, without even knowing what it's all about.
[04:17.970 --> 04:26.830]  But yes, the DVD lawsuit, the ECSS lawsuit is over, and we lost.
[04:27.210 --> 04:31.910]  Well, of course, none of this really surprises us, because we expected this to happen.
[04:32.530 --> 04:40.010]  What surprised me more than anything was just the adamant hostility expressed by the judge.
[04:40.190 --> 04:40.810]  I mean, wow.
[04:41.090 --> 04:41.810]  Did you read the thing, Isaac?
[04:42.970 --> 04:45.010]  People have thrown bits and pieces of it at me.
[04:45.110 --> 04:45.850]  You didn't actually read it, though.
[04:45.950 --> 04:46.230]  I didn't.
[04:46.230 --> 04:47.050]  You've got to read through this.
[04:47.290 --> 04:47.850]  I have to.
[04:47.910 --> 04:48.770]  It's up on the website.
[04:48.890 --> 04:49.490]  Go to the website.
[04:50.450 --> 04:50.730]  Go.
[04:50.850 --> 04:51.590]  Go to the website.
[04:51.670 --> 04:51.850]  Okay.
[04:52.110 --> 04:52.530]  Go on.
[04:52.590 --> 04:52.890]  Get out of here.
[04:52.930 --> 04:57.390]  Go to the website and check out the PDF file we have, right?
[04:57.450 --> 05:04.010]  Actually, if anybody has one of these translation tools that will translate a PDF to HTML, that would be really neat to have, because... I can give you ASCII.
[05:04.790 --> 05:07.290]  Well, you know, ASCII's fine, but I want to keep the tabs.
[05:07.550 --> 05:07.750]  Okay.
[05:07.970 --> 05:08.850]  Well, I'll have to look at tabs.
[05:09.010 --> 05:09.970]  Otherwise, it'll look all ugly.
[05:10.270 --> 05:11.030]  You know, we don't want that.
[05:11.370 --> 05:12.270]  I'll do that when I get back.
[05:12.530 --> 05:13.170]  Yeah, that would be nice.
[05:13.250 --> 05:13.710]  That would be very nice.
[05:13.790 --> 05:21.270]  But right now, if you, you know, anybody with a Windows machine or a Mac, and I don't know, can Linux machines read PDF files?
[05:21.390 --> 05:21.450]  Sure.
[05:21.450 --> 05:21.810]  Sure they can.
[05:21.890 --> 05:22.030]  Okay.
[05:23.150 --> 05:24.690]  That's just my ignorance speaking here.
[05:25.650 --> 05:26.830]  It's not illegal to do that, either.
[05:27.030 --> 05:28.370]  That you can do on a Linux machine.
[05:29.230 --> 05:36.250]  So the PDF file has the whole 89-page decision, as well as the three-page order.
[05:37.690 --> 05:41.590]  Which I guess, we can look at the order.
[05:43.150 --> 05:44.310]  Because that's only three pages.
[05:44.810 --> 05:46.150]  Well, let's go over that real quick.
[05:48.290 --> 05:50.510]  Three hamburgers, two fries, a snack shake.
[05:50.570 --> 05:50.730]  No, no.
[05:50.870 --> 05:51.490]  Nothing like that.
[05:52.170 --> 05:57.510]  The remaining defendants, their officers, agents, servants, or the U.
[05:57.850 --> 05:59.190]  Oh, wait a second.
[06:00.610 --> 06:15.050]  Employees and attorneys and all persons in active concert or participation with them who receive actual notice of this order by personal service or otherwise be and they hereby are permanently enjoined and restrained from.
[06:15.170 --> 06:16.830]  Basically means, don't do this.
[06:16.950 --> 06:18.010]  What happened to known associates?
[06:18.530 --> 06:19.970]  That's what I was last time.
[06:20.370 --> 06:21.630]  There are no known associates.
[06:21.870 --> 06:22.750]  I guess, yeah.
[06:23.710 --> 06:24.810]  You're a servant, no.
[06:24.870 --> 06:25.090]  I'm free.
[06:25.310 --> 06:28.150]  Maybe they, yeah, maybe they took that out because there's just too many of them.
[06:29.290 --> 06:36.270]  Posting on any intranet website or in any way manufacturing, importing, or offering to the public, providing or otherwise trafficking in DECSS.
[06:36.750 --> 06:39.170]  You know, like some kind of cocaine ring or something.
[06:40.110 --> 06:44.270]  Posting on any intranet website or in any other way manufacturing, importing,
[07:06.510 --> 07:08.490]  They're paraphrasing the DMCA.
[07:08.670 --> 07:09.210]  Yeah, they are.
[07:09.390 --> 07:13.010]  But the thing is, you know, it doesn't effectively control anything because it doesn't work.
[07:13.010 --> 07:14.430]  It sucks.
[07:14.490 --> 07:15.090]  It's awful.
[07:15.450 --> 07:16.350]  It's broken.
[07:17.590 --> 07:26.810]  Or effectively protects the plaintiff's rights to control whether an end user can reproduce, manufacture, adapt, publicly perform, and or distribute unauthorized copies of their copyrighted works or portions thereof.
[07:27.350 --> 07:33.810]  Two has only limited commercial significant purposes or use other than to circumvent or to circumvent the protection afforded by CSS.
[07:34.170 --> 07:42.450]  So basically the whole argument as to Linux compatibility is thrown right out the window because it's only limited commercially significant purposes.
[07:43.850 --> 07:48.690]  It is marketed by defendants and or others acting in concert with them with the knowledge of its use and circumventing...
[07:48.690 --> 07:48.750]  Marketed?
[07:49.430 --> 07:49.870]  Yeah.
[07:50.350 --> 07:50.950]  Yeah.
[07:52.370 --> 07:55.330]  Or it's circumventing the protection afforded by CSS.
[07:55.890 --> 07:57.650]  And here's the real killer.
[07:57.790 --> 08:08.490]  Knowingly linking any internet website operated by them to any other website containing the ECSS or knowingly maintaining any such link for the purpose of disseminating the ECSS.
[08:08.490 --> 08:11.850]  Yeah, that's not paraphrased from the DMCA.
[08:12.050 --> 08:12.750]  That's kind of odd.
[08:12.990 --> 08:13.970]  That's new territory.
[08:14.150 --> 08:14.350]  Yes.
[08:14.450 --> 08:15.910]  What if you do it by accident, though?
[08:17.010 --> 08:20.190]  And it's still considered for the purpose of it, I've found out.
[08:20.910 --> 08:22.630]  Well, I'll tell you what we're doing on purpose.
[08:22.770 --> 08:27.170]  What we're doing on purpose is, as we said, maintaining a list of sites.
[08:28.110 --> 08:32.190]  And as soon as the order comes down saying that we're not allowed to have a list, we'll take that down as well.
[08:32.190 --> 08:37.210]  But for right now, that is speech, and that is protected, and that's something we're going to keep up there.
[08:38.050 --> 08:41.750]  And we've gotten thousands of additional sites submitted.
[08:41.830 --> 08:44.550]  We don't have the time to keep adding to that list.
[08:44.630 --> 08:48.650]  So unfortunately, that list is probably woefully out of date, but it's a symbolic type of a thing.
[08:49.470 --> 08:54.150]  And also, we posted some instructions on people who are looking for the ECSS.
[08:54.410 --> 09:00.570]  All you have to do is go to Disney's search engine, go.com, type in DECSS, and you will be linked.
[09:00.570 --> 09:00.570]  Right.
[09:00.810 --> 09:01.230]  That's right.
[09:01.310 --> 09:04.910]  You will be linked to all kinds of sites that have the program right there.
[09:05.070 --> 09:06.010]  Disney will do this for you.
[09:07.030 --> 09:08.950]  Weren't they one of the plaintiffs' manuals?
[09:08.950 --> 09:10.350]  Yes, they were one of the plaintiffs.
[09:10.630 --> 09:11.430]  Isn't that kind of ironic?
[09:11.430 --> 09:12.170]  Very ironic.
[09:12.650 --> 09:14.810]  I'll tell you, this is just unbelievable.
[09:15.750 --> 09:19.930]  All the things... I didn't think a judge could get so many things wrong, but wow.
[09:20.070 --> 09:25.370]  It's like, you know, he bought everything they had to say, without question.
[09:26.010 --> 09:30.330]  I mean, you know, I thought... I was very encouraged by the way things were going at the end.
[09:30.570 --> 09:38.610]  It sounded like he was really listening to people like Professor Turetsky and, you know, Martin Garbus and everybody else that was, you know, who was making really important points.
[09:38.850 --> 09:39.570]  That was an act.
[09:40.630 --> 09:41.730]  It must have been.
[09:41.730 --> 09:42.270]  I don't know.
[09:42.390 --> 09:43.970]  Either that or he had amnesia after that.
[09:45.170 --> 09:46.090]  Here's the thing, okay.
[09:47.290 --> 09:48.150]  There's a sentence.
[09:48.190 --> 09:52.350]  It's on page three of the massive opinion.
[09:52.590 --> 09:56.970]  There is no serious question that defendant's posting of the ECSS violates the DMCA.
[09:56.970 --> 09:57.830]  Okay, fine.
[09:57.970 --> 09:58.450]  That's it.
[09:58.950 --> 10:04.790]  All right, if that's your conclusion, you've reached the conclusion that we violated the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and you stop there.
[10:04.890 --> 10:06.570]  Well, no, he has to give his opinion.
[10:06.670 --> 10:15.710]  He's got to go into all this opinion as to my standing in humanity and, you know, how worthless a person I am and, you know, what the magazine is all about.
[10:15.830 --> 10:16.830]  I mean, this is just...
[10:16.830 --> 10:21.070]  This is the kind of garbage that I got in my deposition from the MPAA lawyer.
[10:21.070 --> 10:23.070]  But it's almost word-for-word reproduced.
[10:24.050 --> 10:29.170]  Things like, well, it's interesting that the defendants actually have a copyright on their magazine.
[10:29.430 --> 10:31.850]  As if we don't understand what a copyright is.
[10:31.850 --> 10:35.130]  As if we would just say, oh, yeah, you know, everybody can copy everything.
[10:35.270 --> 10:36.370]  Information wants to be free.
[10:36.530 --> 10:37.050]  Take everything.
[10:37.450 --> 10:42.750]  Don't charge anybody for, you know, any kind of intellectual property or any kind of copyrighted work.
[10:42.850 --> 10:44.630]  You know, just distribute it to the masses.
[10:44.810 --> 10:46.230]  We've never said anything like that.
[10:46.330 --> 10:48.470]  We've never pretended to say anything like that.
[10:48.470 --> 10:54.210]  But what we have said is basically that this encryption scheme is something that does not work.
[10:54.210 --> 10:56.010]  And this is why it doesn't work.
[10:56.170 --> 11:01.250]  Now, the judge made a very interesting point by comparing this to a bank vault at one point.
[11:01.330 --> 11:07.450]  He said that this is analogous to a bank vault being published by a major newspaper.
[11:08.250 --> 11:10.630]  And as a result, the bank...
[11:10.630 --> 11:10.650]  Combination.
[11:10.930 --> 11:12.570]  Yeah, the combination being published.
[11:12.710 --> 11:15.850]  As a result, the bank security has been compromised.
[11:15.850 --> 11:22.670]  Well, that's flawed right there because the bank's security was compromised the moment that code got out in the first place.
[11:22.790 --> 11:30.430]  Well, if you want to correct that metaphor, I would say that you're looking at a bank vault that has a single dial with ten digits on it.
[11:30.510 --> 11:33.270]  And all you need is a one-digit combination to open the vault.
[11:33.410 --> 11:33.630]  Uh-huh.
[11:33.990 --> 11:34.470]  Yeah.
[11:34.710 --> 11:37.150]  And that got around and it was around for weeks.
[11:37.150 --> 11:38.210]  Well, but...
[11:38.210 --> 11:42.110]  Many sources before you even quoted this.
[11:42.450 --> 11:48.330]  But there is a legitimate point in that the defense was not for cryptographic research.
[11:48.330 --> 11:50.550]  The defense was of First Amendment issues.
[11:51.110 --> 11:51.370]  Uh-huh.
[11:51.490 --> 11:51.850]  Yeah.
[11:51.850 --> 11:57.790]  So to hark on the crypto research bits now is kind of past the fact.
[11:57.790 --> 12:06.910]  Well, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, yeah, I'm just responding to basically the, uh, the ridiculous comparisons he made.
[12:07.050 --> 12:08.030]  Because they are ridiculous.
[12:08.410 --> 12:21.330]  Uh, would he suggest imprisoning or, or, or charging, uh, a newspaper that prints information about a bank vault having a, you know, a default combination or predictable combination or being wide open even?
[12:21.850 --> 12:24.530]  Uh, are they guilty of a crime for telling people this?
[12:24.530 --> 12:27.510]  Better yet, they're selling the bank vault to you.
[12:27.630 --> 12:27.850]  Uh-huh.
[12:28.110 --> 12:28.350]  Right.
[12:28.570 --> 12:28.870]  Right.
[12:28.870 --> 12:29.590]  It's your bank vault.
[12:29.730 --> 12:29.990]  It's your bank vault.
[12:29.990 --> 12:31.090]  It's in your house.
[12:31.410 --> 12:34.630]  And, and you're not allowed to tell people that, hey, this is broken.
[12:34.990 --> 12:36.010]  This doesn't work.
[12:36.690 --> 12:38.690]  It's, uh, it's, it's ridiculous.
[12:39.190 --> 12:41.950]  Uh, now here's another, here's another quote that I really love here.
[12:42.670 --> 12:42.830]  Um.
[12:43.370 --> 12:44.690]  What page is this one on, Emmanuel?
[12:44.730 --> 12:45.630]  This is on page 12.
[12:45.910 --> 12:49.730]  I'm sure there are readers at home who have this, uh, and they can look at it as you're reading.
[12:49.730 --> 12:59.850]  Yeah, if, uh, if you go to www.2600.com and, um, look for, uh, at the bottom under the DVD documents, you'll see, uh, there's two, uh, it should be flashing, actually.
[13:00.050 --> 13:09.710]  Some browsers doesn't flash, but, uh, the most recent, um, the most recent documents with the red date next to them, uh, that's a decision and a three-page, um, uh, declaration or order or whatever.
[13:09.710 --> 13:15.170]  Uh, go to page 12 of the decision and, uh, you'll see this quote.
[13:15.290 --> 13:31.070]  Not surprisingly, 2600, the Hacker Quarterly, has included articles on such topics as how to steal an internet domain name, access other people's email, uh, intercept cellular phone calls, and break into the computer systems at Costco stores and Federal Express.
[13:31.430 --> 13:36.810]  One issue contains a guide to the Federal Criminal Justice System for readers charged with computer hacking.
[13:37.170 --> 13:37.950]  Oh, horrors.
[13:38.530 --> 13:50.330]  You know, it's, um, we, we went over all this in the deposition at the trial, and I, I explained at great length why these articles are printed and, and the significance that they have.
[13:50.810 --> 14:05.250]  And, uh, just to, just to pick the first one, the most recent one, the internet, uh, how to steal an internet domain name, uh, that came about from a very profound gap in security at Network Solutions, where basically anybody could, by sending email, take somebody else's domain name.
[14:05.250 --> 14:09.650]  Well, yeah, I guess in Judge Kaplan's eyes, we're supposed to keep quiet and not tell anybody this.
[14:10.070 --> 14:12.810]  Or only, only go to Network Solutions and tell them.
[14:12.930 --> 14:13.290]  Well, guess what?
[14:13.370 --> 14:16.450]  Network Solutions have been told this a million times, and they never did anything about it.
[14:17.010 --> 14:17.710]  It's fixed now.
[14:17.710 --> 14:19.010]  That's why the criticism is published.
[14:19.130 --> 14:20.150]  It is fixed now.
[14:20.210 --> 14:27.570]  It's fixed now, and it's fixed because it came out in a magazine that, uh, tens of thousands of people read, and something had to be done.
[14:27.710 --> 14:29.330]  So, yeah, you have to force the issue sometime.
[14:29.510 --> 14:33.850]  But, you know, the point I've been trying to make throughout this whole thing, we print information.
[14:34.270 --> 14:38.130]  And we don't sit around at night saying, how will this information be used?
[14:38.270 --> 14:40.170]  Will somebody, you know, do something bad with it?
[14:40.230 --> 14:41.510]  Will somebody do something good with it?
[14:41.510 --> 14:44.690]  Should we print it because somebody will do something bad or somebody will do something good?
[14:44.830 --> 14:46.650]  That's not why information is printed.
[14:46.770 --> 14:48.430]  Information is printed because you obtain it.
[14:48.730 --> 14:50.310]  And when you obtain it, you share it.
[14:50.430 --> 14:54.570]  And whatever happens to the information at that point, that's up to the people that play the game.
[14:54.710 --> 14:55.630]  It's newsworthy.
[14:55.790 --> 14:57.010]  It's very newsworthy.
[14:57.110 --> 14:58.590]  And people have a right to know this.
[14:58.710 --> 14:59.290]  They really do.
[14:59.490 --> 15:04.750]  For instance, you know, the CSS code that was completely defeated by DECSS.
[15:05.510 --> 15:07.670]  Are we supposed to just pretend that didn't happen?
[15:07.670 --> 15:12.550]  Are we supposed to blithely go out and say, yeah, CSS is a good encryption standard.
[15:12.790 --> 15:15.270]  There is no 16-year-old in Norway that cracked it.
[15:15.390 --> 15:16.970]  No, that did not happen.
[15:17.130 --> 15:18.270]  And we will continue to use it.
[15:18.350 --> 15:19.610]  Of course you wouldn't do that.
[15:20.050 --> 15:28.370]  And basically by reporting the story and by proving it, by showing the source, by showing the programs that are out there, that is what this is about.
[15:28.530 --> 15:29.550]  It's reporting a story.
[15:29.750 --> 15:32.130]  Apparently that now is a crime.
[15:32.330 --> 15:32.810]  Yes, Alex.
[15:32.810 --> 15:40.290]  What I think is really interesting and really surprising that he wrote that is that was the one day that I went to the trial when you were testifying.
[15:40.630 --> 15:42.870]  And you were talking about why you print the articles.
[15:43.390 --> 15:45.630]  And he was smiling and almost laughing.
[15:45.630 --> 15:48.050]  And he seemed really happy and really enthusiastic.
[15:48.410 --> 15:50.190]  He had a bottle of Jack Daniels back there, actually.
[15:50.370 --> 15:50.930]  Yeah, he probably did.
[15:51.030 --> 15:51.410]  That's why that was going on.
[15:51.470 --> 15:52.170]  What is this?
[15:52.270 --> 15:54.050]  Well, he wasn't actually laughing at anything I was saying.
[15:54.130 --> 15:55.910]  He was having a good time, but I'm only kidding.
[15:55.970 --> 15:56.930]  But he seemed really into that.
[15:56.930 --> 15:59.650]  I was at the court just for saying that, but I'll tell you this.
[15:59.650 --> 16:00.870]  I wanted to offer you that escape.
[16:01.750 --> 16:02.870]  It's really surprising.
[16:02.870 --> 16:04.650]  He seemed like he really understood it.
[16:04.770 --> 16:05.430]  He was happy.
[16:05.610 --> 16:07.790]  He was rocking back and forth in his chair.
[16:08.050 --> 16:09.610]  Maybe there are two judges.
[16:09.990 --> 16:12.410]  Or maybe he has some sort of psychological disorder.
[16:12.870 --> 16:35.990]  I found Emmanuel from sitting in many trials, not just as a defendant, but as an observer, the judges frequently go through this charade to feign objectivity in a method to avoid looking prejudiced, which this judge clearly is from his, if you read his final decision.
[16:35.990 --> 16:48.990]  But if you followed him, as we all did, during the actual trial, he actually gave us some hope into thinking, like, this guy actually might be considering both sides of the issue.
[16:50.350 --> 16:54.010]  Clearly, in his final decision, that was not done.
[16:54.010 --> 17:00.510]  But it's clearly a charade, and he's feigning objectivity.
[17:01.110 --> 17:03.630]  But, you know, it's an act they go through.
[17:04.010 --> 17:06.050]  I mean, I've seen this time and again.
[17:06.590 --> 17:09.110]  And it's not a coincidence.
[17:09.350 --> 17:11.170]  I mean, it's just how they operate.
[17:11.170 --> 17:24.730]  As much as I don't think he was objective by reading the decision and the language he used, I also think you have to consider the scope of the jurisdiction of his court, where he really had to decide, did this violate the DMCA?
[17:24.910 --> 17:25.410]  Yes, it did.
[17:25.490 --> 17:26.270]  Therefore, you're guilty.
[17:26.550 --> 17:29.570]  And he had to go through the entire court process.
[17:29.890 --> 17:30.970]  There was no way around that.
[17:31.150 --> 17:32.630]  But he probably knew...
[17:32.630 --> 17:34.310]  This judge could well have...
[17:34.310 --> 17:45.450]  It was within this judge's authority to determine that DCSS, that making the publication of DCSS was a violation of the First Amendment.
[17:45.570 --> 17:47.030]  This judge was perfectly capable of...
[17:47.030 --> 17:48.930]  I don't think he really wanted to get into the First Amendment.
[17:49.230 --> 17:49.350]  Yeah.
[17:50.030 --> 17:53.190]  But whether he wanted to or not, it was within his power to do so.
[17:53.310 --> 17:56.290]  I think it also was his obligation to do so if there was a First Amendment issue.
[17:56.470 --> 17:58.590]  It's only the Constitution of the United States.
[17:59.030 --> 18:01.810]  There was more going on here than the First Amendment issue.
[18:01.990 --> 18:04.190]  You were offering the program itself.
[18:04.510 --> 18:08.910]  You were trafficking in the tool, which the DMCA says you can't be doing.
[18:09.430 --> 18:13.230]  But also, there was a line that was crossed there, which I believe he's seeing.
[18:14.510 --> 18:14.670]  Right.
[18:14.730 --> 18:15.230]  But by...
[18:15.230 --> 18:16.710]  You know, where does this end?
[18:16.910 --> 18:20.490]  I mean, you have people wearing T-shirts now who are being charged with a crime.
[18:20.570 --> 18:22.170]  Well, it ends where the law says it ends.
[18:22.170 --> 18:30.390]  The law is obviously insane because anybody can commit a crime now simply by having source code.
[18:30.510 --> 18:33.570]  Then you have to contact your legislators to change this law.
[18:33.570 --> 18:33.830]  Well, okay.
[18:33.970 --> 18:35.530]  That's the beauty of the situation.
[18:35.770 --> 18:44.330]  I've been doing a little bit of research here as far as how this particular law came into being and looking for the records of the voting.
[18:44.470 --> 18:45.290]  And guess what?
[18:45.350 --> 18:46.910]  It was done by a voice vote.
[18:46.910 --> 18:49.210]  There is no record of who voted for it.
[18:49.310 --> 18:50.910]  Just apparently everybody voted for it.
[18:51.090 --> 19:03.950]  So basically, the solution is get rid of everybody and put some new people in who aren't in the pocket of these major organizations like the MPAA, who basically bought this legislation.
[19:03.950 --> 19:05.170]  There's no question about that.
[19:05.730 --> 19:22.770]  Something as ridiculous as DMCA could only come from this mammoth organization that is interested in greed and making money and controlling people and making sure that it's impossible to hit a button on anything that you own without paying a fee for it.
[19:23.230 --> 19:25.490]  So that's what we're looking at here.
[19:25.570 --> 19:29.170]  We're looking at really bad legislation that was passed by people who won't take credit for it.
[19:29.170 --> 19:34.730]  Well, there are some congressmen, if I recall correctly, that are quoted as saying, you know, this isn't what we intended.
[19:34.890 --> 19:35.010]  Yeah.
[19:35.150 --> 19:35.970]  This is going too far.
[19:36.390 --> 19:37.470]  Orrin Hatch is one of them.
[19:37.590 --> 19:39.150]  He's the co-sponsor of the bill.
[19:39.750 --> 19:41.350]  Now he's saying, oh, yeah, that's not what I meant.
[19:41.430 --> 19:43.070]  Okay, well, you better fix it then.
[19:43.230 --> 19:45.350]  You better fix it or you're going to find yourself out in the street.
[19:45.790 --> 19:47.850]  I think we should encourage him to fix it.
[19:47.870 --> 19:50.830]  I think the court will fix it, but I think they'll do it in the appellate division.
[19:50.930 --> 19:53.010]  Or all those witnesses that you called, especially.
[19:53.650 --> 19:55.230]  I forgot the professor's name.
[19:55.990 --> 19:56.310]  Turetsky?
[19:56.310 --> 19:59.670]  Yeah, the one who was talking about source code as speech.
[19:59.810 --> 19:59.990]  Right.
[20:00.170 --> 20:05.530]  That'll be really relevant in the appellate division if they, you know, want to consider the DMCA null and void.
[20:05.750 --> 20:06.470]  If they want to consider it a bad law.
[20:06.470 --> 20:10.130]  Especially since there's already federal case law along those lines.
[20:10.270 --> 20:10.470]  Yes.
[20:11.170 --> 20:16.610]  Well, if the court throws out the DMCA because of constitutional issues, great.
[20:16.850 --> 20:19.170]  Yeah, and that's the only other way judges can legislate.
[20:19.310 --> 20:20.770]  They have a big legislative power.
[20:20.930 --> 20:22.270]  It's not just the legislature.
[20:22.410 --> 20:23.410]  They can strike things down.
[20:23.570 --> 20:25.310]  They can't, like, build things up.
[20:25.310 --> 20:27.350]  Well, in a sense, that's how they legislate.
[20:27.550 --> 20:28.870]  By striking things down.
[20:29.350 --> 20:29.930]  Interpreting it.
[20:30.130 --> 20:30.830]  They adjudicate.
[20:30.930 --> 20:32.810]  They don't legislate.
[20:33.170 --> 20:34.330]  Bernie with the big words.
[20:34.450 --> 20:37.170]  Well, I'd really like to hear other people's...
[20:37.170 --> 20:43.690]  We posted some responses to this yesterday on the website, and apparently that got spread all over the net.
[20:43.690 --> 20:53.170]  Basically, I stayed up till six writing this stream of consciousness thing, threw it up on our site, and then woke up about four the next day.
[20:53.430 --> 20:58.050]  There were literally hundreds, if not thousands, of pieces of email in response.
[20:58.050 --> 21:02.550]  And I think maybe two of them were disagreeing.
[21:02.610 --> 21:09.230]  And everybody else is just basically like, wow, this is, you know, you guys really have to fight this fight.
[21:09.290 --> 21:10.550]  This is, like, extremely important.
[21:10.710 --> 21:16.330]  And it's just, I was blown away by how many people are affected by this, how many people understand it.
[21:16.450 --> 21:20.270]  And I've been talking to a lot of people who aren't in the computer world.
[21:21.270 --> 21:26.270]  People just basically are, you know, out there in the real world that don't have contact with this kind of a thing.
[21:26.990 --> 21:30.370]  And you explain the situation to them, and they get it really, really quickly.
[21:30.370 --> 21:31.770]  It's not that difficult to do.
[21:31.870 --> 21:43.270]  And that's something we have to concentrate on in the weeks and months ahead when we go back onto the streets with our leafleting, and we try to reach people outside the theaters and get them to understand why this is important, why this will affect them,
[21:43.350 --> 21:46.590]  and how it's very dangerous to let something like this stand.
[21:47.150 --> 21:48.130]  It really is.
[21:48.370 --> 21:53.090]  I'm not saying that just from my own viewpoint here, because I'm the person losing the suit.
[21:53.870 --> 21:55.910]  It's something that will affect lots of people.
[21:56.130 --> 22:01.210]  Look for many, many more lawsuits that will quote the DMCA as a reason.
[22:01.210 --> 22:02.130]  They'll quote this case.
[22:02.410 --> 22:03.530]  In fact, I would say...
[22:03.530 --> 22:09.090]  The implications of the Digital Millennium Copyright go far beyond DVDs.
[22:09.930 --> 22:11.810]  I mean, that's what people think this is the case is about.
[22:11.830 --> 22:12.870]  It's not about this.
[22:12.950 --> 22:23.150]  It's about the future of who controls how consumers can use intellectual property they've already bought the right to view, or listened to, or whatever.
[22:23.430 --> 22:33.230]  Well, for the purposes of people who are just tuning in that have no idea what CSS, DECSS is all about, Bernie, maybe you could give a very rudimentary guide to what this is about.
[22:34.130 --> 22:35.550]  No more than a minute.
[22:35.550 --> 22:39.330]  It's really not about DCS, this program, so much as it is.
[22:39.450 --> 23:04.050]  The big picture is this law allows publishers or creators of intellectual property, which we all buy and consume, to control now not only what platform you consume that intellectual property on, such as which player or computer or what operating system or whatever,
[23:04.230 --> 23:06.890]  but they control how you consume the content.
[23:08.190 --> 23:25.530]  The analogy I give to a lot of people is when books and magazines and newspapers are distributed digitally, as they are now, but even more so in the near future, when we'll probably carry around some sort of electronic tablet, which will be a medium for viewing magazines.
[23:25.870 --> 23:26.990]  I look forward to that, by the way.
[23:27.270 --> 23:28.030]  All that sort of thing.
[23:28.170 --> 23:31.790]  I mean, hey, who wants to carry around 20 books in their book bag if you're a college student?
[23:31.910 --> 23:32.810]  That's why I look forward to it.
[23:32.810 --> 23:50.110]  Yeah, well, now publishers will be able to control how long you look at each page, what advertising content or what government message you must look at for so long before you turn to another page.
[23:50.970 --> 23:53.650]  It basically really removes...
[23:53.650 --> 23:58.970]  When you buy a book in the future, you're not going to be buying that.
[23:58.970 --> 24:17.930]  You're going to be giving up control over how you consume that content, not only how you view it, but how many times you look at it, in what order you look at the pages, how long you must view advertisements or government messages like an FBI message or who knows what's coming down the pike next,
[24:18.170 --> 24:19.850]  before you look at another page.
[24:19.850 --> 24:30.570]  I read a couple weeks ago that... I'm sorry, I read a couple weeks ago... I can't remember where I read it, but Microsoft is coming out with a viewer for books.
[24:30.750 --> 24:34.750]  Actually, books are going to be, I guess, published to a certain type of file format.
[24:35.070 --> 24:38.890]  And this file format can only be read by a Microsoft viewer.
[24:39.450 --> 24:43.670]  So you're only going to be able to view books on some sort of Microsoft-compatible handheld device.
[24:43.670 --> 24:49.150]  Yeah, you'll have Microsoft books, you'll have Sony Music, you'll have all kinds of things that are restricted in how you can look at them.
[24:49.290 --> 24:51.770]  And, you know, this is affecting people right now.
[24:51.850 --> 24:58.230]  I got a piece of email in the last day saying that somebody was trying to watch the DVD of The Sixth Sense.
[24:58.890 --> 24:59.890]  You know, I filmed The Sixth Sense.
[25:00.110 --> 25:03.030]  And supposedly, and if somebody could verify this, I'd really appreciate it.
[25:03.490 --> 25:10.590]  Supposedly, somebody said that they were watching this and it was impossible to skip through the first six minutes of advertising.
[25:10.630 --> 25:14.130]  You had to watch that advertising if you wanted to see anything else in that DVD.
[25:14.410 --> 25:16.530]  That's the kind of thing that CSS does.
[25:16.730 --> 25:18.090]  It controls how you watch things.
[25:18.230 --> 25:20.330]  It controls the environment that you watch it in.
[25:20.650 --> 25:22.730]  You cannot see anything on a Linux machine.
[25:22.810 --> 25:25.970]  You cannot see it on other platforms that are not supported.
[25:26.230 --> 25:28.830]  And I've looked into what it takes to actually get a license.
[25:29.010 --> 25:32.970]  It's phenomenally expensive if you're trying to develop something like that.
[25:34.090 --> 25:35.970]  And things are...
[25:35.970 --> 25:42.410]  Someone else wrote to us saying how they have a DVD player in another country that's locked into the wrong time zone.
[25:42.550 --> 25:43.130]  Not time zone.
[25:43.250 --> 25:43.490]  Country.
[25:43.610 --> 25:44.430]  Country zone.
[25:45.750 --> 25:48.730]  Apparently, you're able to change the zone a couple of times.
[25:49.210 --> 25:51.610]  But I think it's like, what, four or five?
[25:51.690 --> 25:52.050]  Region cut.
[25:52.130 --> 25:53.690]  You're able to change about four or five times.
[25:53.890 --> 25:56.470]  And on the last time, it locks into whatever position that is.
[25:56.530 --> 26:01.490]  And somebody was playing with something they shouldn't have played with, his roommate or something like that, and it locked into the wrong one.
[26:01.650 --> 26:05.610]  And now this person has a useless piece of machinery that can only play things from Africa.
[26:06.350 --> 26:09.610]  Well, on the other hand, the market forces will come to bear.
[26:09.810 --> 26:16.130]  People won't stand up for, or won't stand for, a lot of the crap that's going to be coming down the pike.
[26:16.230 --> 26:16.830]  I mean, look at Divex.
[26:16.850 --> 26:18.490]  Well, we're on the pike right now.
[26:18.630 --> 26:19.390]  We're in the middle of traffic.
[26:19.610 --> 26:19.650]  Well, look at Divex.
[26:19.810 --> 26:21.990]  And it's time for people to stop standing for it right now.
[26:22.250 --> 26:23.710]  Divex is very well dead.
[26:23.730 --> 26:24.630]  And why is it dead?
[26:24.690 --> 26:29.610]  Because they tried to use that kind of control where you had to make the telephone call every time you watched the movie.
[26:29.610 --> 26:31.030]  But Divex was not a law.
[26:31.270 --> 26:32.110]  You see, that's the big difference.
[26:32.250 --> 26:33.330]  Divex was a bad idea.
[26:33.330 --> 26:35.750]  It would have been supported by the DMCA.
[26:35.890 --> 26:35.950]  Oh, yeah.
[26:36.070 --> 26:37.650]  But it came before the DMCA.
[26:37.790 --> 26:50.930]  It was not a crime to choose not to view a Divex, as opposed to, now, it is a crime to view a DVD on your computer running Linux because of this law.
[26:51.330 --> 26:52.890]  Outside of its intended environment.
[26:53.350 --> 26:53.770]  Exactly.
[26:54.470 --> 26:54.790]  Understood.
[26:54.970 --> 26:56.370]  Well, who cares what the intended environment is?
[26:56.530 --> 26:57.810]  You pay for the thing.
[26:57.930 --> 26:58.110]  Correct.
[26:58.130 --> 27:01.790]  You should be able to do whatever you want with it, aside from normal copyright things.
[27:01.790 --> 27:05.570]  Which means, like, giving it away to other people or selling it to other people.
[27:05.650 --> 27:11.430]  But the point I'm trying to make is that the market crushed Divex because no one wanted to deal with that kind of thing.
[27:11.650 --> 27:13.910]  They wanted to be able to play it in different environments.
[27:13.910 --> 27:17.190]  Well, that should tell you what the public mood is, as far as that kind of thing goes.
[27:17.350 --> 27:20.990]  It shouldn't be very hard for people to realize that, hey, this isn't a very good idea.
[27:21.230 --> 27:24.230]  Even if it is a law, it's a bad idea and it must be overturned.
[27:24.290 --> 27:30.550]  So, yeah, look at Divex as, you know, just the prelude to what we're moving into here because it's really the same mentality.
[27:30.910 --> 27:37.390]  It went way too far and people have to realize that DVD isn't much better so far as the level of control.
[27:37.590 --> 27:41.810]  There are all kinds of analogies in the decision.
[27:42.190 --> 27:44.870]  One of them, did you read the disease one?
[27:45.530 --> 27:45.970]  Disease.
[27:46.430 --> 27:46.950]  What page is that one?
[27:47.030 --> 27:48.710]  This is on page 61.
[27:50.490 --> 27:53.390]  And basically he says the disease metaphor is helpful here.
[27:54.550 --> 27:56.570]  So we've gone from a bank vault to a disease.
[27:56.570 --> 27:57.670]  He loves these things.
[27:57.750 --> 28:03.710]  The spread of means of circumventing access to copywriter works in digital form is analogous to a propagated outbreak epidemic.
[28:04.270 --> 28:11.690]  Finding the original source of infection, that is, the author of DECSS, the first person to misuse it, accomplishes nothing.
[28:11.690 --> 28:13.770]  We must stop this knowledge from spreading!
[28:14.450 --> 28:16.670]  So John Johansson is the source of infection.
[28:16.990 --> 28:17.310]  That's right.
[28:17.410 --> 28:23.470]  As a disease, infringement made possible by DECSS and resulting availability of decrypted DVDs John Johansson, patient zero.
[28:23.470 --> 28:32.430]  May continue to spread from one person who gains access to the circumvention program or decrypted DVD to another, and each is infected, each is capable of making perfect copies of the digital file.
[28:32.810 --> 28:39.310]  Again, this is so misleading because that is not what DECSS decrypts the DVD.
[28:40.030 --> 28:46.070]  It does not make it any easier to copy files because you can still copy encrypted files.
[28:46.070 --> 28:48.570]  Basically, someone drew a really good analogy.
[28:48.750 --> 28:52.850]  They said, if I write a note to you in a foreign language, and then you make...
[28:52.850 --> 28:56.290]  You cannot read it because you don't know the language, but a friend of yours can.
[28:56.410 --> 29:02.030]  But if you make a Xerox copy of that note and hand it to the friend, they can still read the note, even though it's a copy.
[29:02.450 --> 29:03.250]  You see how it works?
[29:03.350 --> 29:09.710]  It's basically you're making a copy of something that's unreadable, and the copy is readable to the people who have the proper key.
[29:09.710 --> 29:18.110]  It's a very simple concept, and this was not explained or not understood by the other side, or maybe they just didn't want to understand it that way.
[29:18.790 --> 29:20.110]  The media didn't get it either.
[29:20.270 --> 29:22.110]  Did you see the article on CNN.com?
[29:22.990 --> 29:24.150]  I'm not sure if I saw CNN.
[29:24.690 --> 29:25.430]  Oh, it was horrible.
[29:25.450 --> 29:27.830]  Considering CNN is owned by one of the plaintiffs.
[29:27.850 --> 29:29.310]  Yeah, that's Time Warner.
[29:29.450 --> 29:30.990]  Say Time Warner because that's who they are.
[29:31.130 --> 29:31.370]  Time Warner.
[29:31.510 --> 29:32.090]  Yeah, not CNN.
[29:32.410 --> 29:33.050]  But it was horrible.
[29:33.270 --> 29:35.890]  It really, really just misconstrued everything.
[29:36.050 --> 29:40.270]  Well, did you see the piece in the New York Times, which I don't think is owned by anybody, except the New York Times.
[29:40.450 --> 29:41.270]  That actually had the links?
[29:41.790 --> 29:45.230]  No, it had my picture on page D1.
[29:45.290 --> 29:46.490]  That was not on the front page of the business section?
[29:46.490 --> 29:47.890]  Yeah, front page of the business section.
[29:48.170 --> 29:52.390]  Basically, it said underneath, this man would like to provide source code to copy DVDs.
[29:52.390 --> 29:55.470]  Was it a recent picture, or one of their stock footage ones from like eight years ago?
[29:55.470 --> 29:56.370]  No, it was from the trial.
[29:56.630 --> 29:57.230]  Oh, okay, that's good.
[29:57.370 --> 29:58.930]  So I had a look of shock on my face.
[30:01.290 --> 30:04.890]  And basically, they just said, this guy wants to copy DVDs.
[30:04.890 --> 30:05.890]  And that's not what this is about.
[30:05.990 --> 30:08.330]  This has never been about copying or anything like that.
[30:08.330 --> 30:09.870]  Of course, the other side wants it to be that.
[30:10.010 --> 30:10.790]  And they've succeeded.
[30:10.970 --> 30:12.310]  They've got a judge to believe them.
[30:12.550 --> 30:13.930]  But that's not what this is about.
[30:13.990 --> 30:19.550]  And anybody with any slight degree of technical knowledge, or even logical knowledge, understands this.
[30:19.710 --> 30:24.890]  And it's amazing to see all the people that get it, and just are so frustrated because the legal system doesn't get it.
[30:25.130 --> 30:26.030]  You know, what do you do?
[30:26.230 --> 30:27.550]  You just throw your hands up in despair.
[30:28.130 --> 30:29.750]  Emanuel, the legal system gets it.
[30:29.810 --> 30:31.150]  They know exactly what they're doing.
[30:38.670 --> 30:40.070]  Then where does that lead us?
[30:40.310 --> 30:41.090]  What does that mean?
[30:41.150 --> 30:42.450]  The entire system is corrupt.
[30:42.610 --> 30:43.310]  How do we work with that?
[30:43.430 --> 30:44.250]  That's what it comes down to.
[30:44.270 --> 30:44.770]  I don't know.
[30:46.130 --> 30:47.490]  That's, I think, what we're dealing with.
[30:47.710 --> 30:49.210]  You know, this is not a leap.
[30:49.370 --> 30:54.370]  This does not require great technical knowledge, or as you say, great logical knowledge.
[30:54.370 --> 31:06.670]  Just anybody with the understanding of basic logical, you know, concepts and a smattering of technical knowledge, which Judge Kaplan himself has, is capable of understanding these issues.
[31:06.690 --> 31:09.810]  But he understands the bigger issues have to do with money.
[31:10.850 --> 31:13.010]  And he decided on that side.
[31:13.190 --> 31:15.530]  I mean, he's not... he understood what's going on.
[31:15.850 --> 31:17.350]  This isn't... they're not all ignorant.
[31:17.850 --> 31:19.270]  They knew exactly what they were doing.
[31:20.670 --> 31:21.230]  Yeah.
[31:22.790 --> 31:23.710]  That's my opinion.
[31:23.710 --> 31:24.190]  Maybe.
[31:24.310 --> 31:35.470]  I think that when you go up into the higher courts, though, you really do get more learned judges, more people that are open to other things, maybe even open to alternative operating systems.
[31:35.530 --> 31:35.910]  Who knows?
[31:36.070 --> 31:42.970]  How do you judge something like this, where basically we bring up the issue of fair use?
[31:43.070 --> 31:44.690]  And fair use is, of course...
[31:44.690 --> 31:46.690]  Let's use this radio program as an example.
[31:46.890 --> 31:47.190]  Careful.
[31:47.470 --> 31:48.070]  Someone is...
[31:48.070 --> 31:50.930]  Your court case, the judge actually says you didn't...
[31:50.930 --> 31:56.590]  You did not significantly bring up the issues of cryptologic research or fair use.
[31:56.710 --> 31:57.130]  Oh, nonsense.
[31:57.170 --> 31:57.950]  We brought it up all the time.
[31:57.950 --> 32:00.530]  You stressed more the First Amendment issue than anything else.
[32:00.650 --> 32:01.870]  We brought up fair use.
[32:02.030 --> 32:02.170]  Okay.
[32:02.170 --> 32:04.390]  I was there, and we brought up fair use quite a bit.
[32:04.490 --> 32:06.770]  How many times did you need to bring it up?
[32:06.850 --> 32:07.690]  Read the transcript.
[32:07.950 --> 32:08.890]  We brought it up.
[32:09.270 --> 32:11.590]  And this is how he dismisses that, okay?
[32:11.670 --> 32:11.970]  Very true.
[32:12.270 --> 32:30.530]  Fair use, for the purposes of people who might not know what it is or might not be aware of its value, let's say you hear something on this radio program and you want to use it in some, like for a class project, for a presentation of your own, for who knows what.
[32:30.650 --> 32:31.150]  Good example.
[32:31.330 --> 32:32.650]  You're a psychology major.
[32:32.850 --> 32:38.690]  You want to take a clip of a quote that I said as evidence of schizophrenic insanity or something like that.
[32:38.890 --> 32:39.530]  There you go.
[32:39.570 --> 32:42.890]  At which point you play it in the class and say, this guy is obviously crazy.
[32:43.250 --> 32:43.430]  Right.
[32:43.430 --> 32:44.690]  And that would be fair use.
[32:44.810 --> 32:53.310]  Under the DMCA, it would be physically impossible for you to hit, play, and record on a machine somewhere and record our voices and play them back later.
[32:53.310 --> 32:54.230]  You wouldn't be able to do it.
[32:54.270 --> 32:55.290]  That's the way they wanted to be.
[32:55.410 --> 33:09.450]  And with HDTV, that's a big thing that everyone's heralding as the second coming of Christ, when that comes, when that's here, I'll bet, and I don't know this for sure, but it seems to stand to reason that you won't be able to just record programs off the TV anymore.
[33:09.450 --> 33:11.150]  You'll have to pay a fee in order to do it.
[33:11.170 --> 33:12.930]  You'll have to unlock some sort of key someplace.
[33:12.930 --> 33:13.810]  And that's really...
[33:13.810 --> 33:17.410]  I mean, I don't think anybody really wants a widescreen shop at home.
[33:17.450 --> 33:19.090]  I don't think anybody really needs that kind of thing.
[33:19.170 --> 33:25.470]  But the reason this is being shoved down our throats is so that they have control over what it is that you do and so that they can make some more money.
[33:25.550 --> 33:27.130]  But anyway, that's basically...
[33:27.130 --> 33:29.630]  Fair use extends to printed works.
[33:29.670 --> 33:31.290]  It extends to broadcast works.
[33:31.450 --> 33:32.590]  It extends to all kinds of things.
[33:32.930 --> 33:41.190]  And the main problem is that with a DVD, there is no fair use because using CSS, you cannot grab a portion of it.
[33:41.190 --> 33:42.770]  Let's say you're reviewing a film, for instance.
[33:42.930 --> 33:49.710]  The excuse that the motion picture industry uses is that you should be contacting them and filing paperwork for your fair use rights.
[33:49.830 --> 33:50.670]  Yeah, every single time.
[33:50.850 --> 33:52.810]  Which is not, you know, reasonable.
[33:52.970 --> 33:58.450]  Yeah, let's say you want to put together something for, you know, a presentation for your class.
[33:58.590 --> 34:01.070]  Let's say you want to put something together for, you know, a family member.
[34:01.670 --> 34:05.530]  Let's say you want to make a copy for your own personal use, which you are allowed to do under fair use.
[34:06.110 --> 34:07.870]  What is Judge Kaplan's response?
[34:07.870 --> 34:11.270]  What is Judge Kaplan's response to that very good question?
[34:11.450 --> 34:11.570]  Okay.
[34:12.370 --> 34:19.010]  Well, to begin with, all or substantially all motion pictures available on DVD are available also on videotape.
[34:19.170 --> 34:22.330]  In consequence, anyone wishing to make lawful use...
[34:22.330 --> 34:22.930]  Oh, my God.
[34:23.110 --> 34:31.510]  ...anyone wishing to make lawful use of a particular movie may buy or rent a videotape, play it, and even copy all or part of it with readily available equipment.
[34:31.710 --> 34:32.930]  But you don't actually...
[34:32.930 --> 34:34.590]  That's the way he deals with fair use.
[34:34.590 --> 34:35.130]  Wait a second.
[34:35.250 --> 34:45.210]  So I have to go out and spend more money on something I don't have to get a second copy of lesser quality of something I already possess in order to fairly use...
[34:45.210 --> 34:49.050]  You have to use technology that is not controlled by the DMCA.
[34:49.210 --> 34:50.170]  You have to go back in time.
[34:50.410 --> 34:55.670]  Well, if you get down to it, all those major releases have their own copy protection in them.
[34:55.670 --> 34:56.330]  Yeah, but it's not digital.
[34:56.470 --> 34:58.670]  It's not digital Millennium Copyright Act or something else.
[34:58.810 --> 34:59.910]  You're talking about MacroVision, right?
[35:00.070 --> 35:00.310]  Yes.
[35:00.510 --> 35:00.650]  Yeah.
[35:00.890 --> 35:02.170]  I would also go as far as to...
[35:02.170 --> 35:02.710]  I don't think it's a question, though.
[35:03.010 --> 35:04.970]  Still, DMCA still applies to MacroVision.
[35:04.970 --> 35:05.170]  It still applies.
[35:05.430 --> 35:05.570]  Does it?
[35:05.630 --> 35:11.930]  It's not digital, but it's still a method of protecting...
[35:11.930 --> 35:12.830]  A copyright mark.
[35:13.190 --> 35:13.610]  Exactly.
[35:13.930 --> 35:14.990]  Or whatever the language is.
[35:15.150 --> 35:15.570]  You can't...
[35:15.570 --> 35:16.390]  It's now illegal.
[35:16.630 --> 35:24.350]  I tried to buy one of these Go Video dual VCRs a few months ago.
[35:24.350 --> 35:46.330]  And I bought it two weeks after whatever the deadline was, I think back in April, after which Go Video would no longer be able to legally sell their machine without the MacroVision protection built into it to prevent you from making a copy of a videotape you've already purchased.
[35:46.570 --> 35:46.690]  Correct.
[35:46.930 --> 35:48.290]  To make a backup or so forth.
[35:48.290 --> 35:52.810]  I took it back to the store and said, listen, it doesn't do what I wanted it to do.
[35:53.590 --> 35:57.090]  But I called Go Video and they said, there's just no way around it.
[35:57.150 --> 36:03.530]  We built this in and we didn't like to do it, but it was required to under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[36:03.610 --> 36:05.710]  And that's not because it's digital, it's analog.
[36:05.750 --> 36:09.510]  Okay, so this is being extended to all kinds of technology.
[36:09.730 --> 36:13.850]  But I just found it amazing the way the judge chose to address that very important point.
[36:13.850 --> 36:17.710]  Well, you can just go back and, you know, and here's another thing he addressed.
[36:18.610 --> 36:24.950]  CSS encryption coupled with the characteristics of compliant DVD players also forecloses copying of digital sound files.
[36:25.710 --> 36:30.850]  It is not clear, however, that this is a substantial impediment to copying sound from motion picture DVDs.
[36:30.910 --> 36:31.610]  And here's how.
[36:31.750 --> 36:32.570]  Oh, please tell me.
[36:32.570 --> 36:37.130]  A DVD can be played on a compliant player and the sound re-recorded.
[36:37.290 --> 36:38.850]  Oh, so you hold the microphone up to a speaker.
[36:38.850 --> 36:39.290]  That's right.
[36:39.390 --> 36:40.810]  Hold the mic up to the speaker and get it.
[36:40.930 --> 36:42.250]  That is your fair use right there.
[36:42.270 --> 36:43.510]  At least you don't have to rent it that time.
[36:43.510 --> 36:49.190]  Now, this may not seem like much, but wait until DVD audio comes around, because that's just around the corner.
[36:49.370 --> 36:51.810]  You won't be able to copy your CDs to a cassette.
[36:52.010 --> 36:55.110]  You won't be able to, you know, to trade CDs with your friends from overseas.
[36:55.110 --> 36:56.710]  You won't be able to do any of this anymore.
[36:56.930 --> 36:58.170]  That is why this is important.
[36:58.270 --> 36:59.990]  That's how it's going to affect each and every one of us.
[36:59.990 --> 37:04.630]  But he's essentially eliminating the first sale rule that was established in U.S.
[37:04.710 --> 37:05.370]  copyright code.
[37:05.550 --> 37:05.910]  Correct.
[37:07.190 --> 37:07.550]  Pathetic.
[37:07.550 --> 37:14.270]  On the audio CD, the audio DVD format, I'm not sure exactly what they call it, you can bet they're going to region code that as well.
[37:14.390 --> 37:14.730]  Of course.
[37:14.930 --> 37:15.490]  Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[37:15.650 --> 37:15.910]  Absolutely.
[37:15.990 --> 37:17.530]  They're going to region code everything so that...
[37:17.530 --> 37:23.110]  Which is going to completely change the whole status of import records.
[37:23.330 --> 37:23.490]  Mm-hmm.
[37:23.650 --> 37:27.430]  We won't be able to go and buy imports anymore because they won't play on your machine.
[37:27.430 --> 37:28.810]  Just have to stick with bootleg.
[37:29.110 --> 37:30.290]  And the reporting industry will love it.
[37:30.450 --> 37:30.610]  Yeah.
[37:32.290 --> 37:32.750]  Unbelievable.
[37:33.330 --> 37:34.950]  Okay, we're going to take some phone calls.
[37:35.070 --> 37:36.580]  212-209-2900.
[37:37.110 --> 37:44.050]  We'd love to hear people's responses to this and their suggestions and questions and things like that.
[37:44.230 --> 37:50.630]  As far as the actual conclusion, what it boiled down to in the end was that, well, we had to take the links down.
[37:51.230 --> 37:55.630]  We were permanently prohibited from putting the files up on our site.
[37:55.630 --> 38:01.590]  The judge, however, did not find us to be responsible for the legal fees of the other side, which I think...
[38:01.590 --> 38:02.170]  Which were how much?
[38:02.330 --> 38:03.430]  About $4 million.
[38:04.070 --> 38:04.590]  Was that all?
[38:05.510 --> 38:16.390]  But, but, and this is kind of an important fact and maybe something that folks out there can help with, he did say we were responsible for costs, taxable costs, whatever that means.
[38:16.530 --> 38:17.590]  What exactly is that?
[38:17.710 --> 38:19.170]  Nobody has really gotten me a definitive answer.
[38:19.170 --> 38:20.970]  His salary, the stenographer, the bill.
[38:20.970 --> 38:25.430]  What is that expert witness that paid expert witness who they paid to save?
[38:26.010 --> 38:26.410]  Yeah.
[38:26.410 --> 38:30.650]  So you're saying the $30,000 that witness got for sitting in a chair and lying...
[38:31.250 --> 38:32.010]  Yeah, you gotta pay that.
[38:32.450 --> 38:33.650]  We're responsible for that?
[38:33.930 --> 38:34.130]  Right.
[38:34.130 --> 38:35.530]  That would be insane if that were true.
[38:35.910 --> 38:36.050]  Yeah.
[38:36.870 --> 38:38.390]  I don't know about that, but...
[38:38.390 --> 38:38.830]  It's cost.
[38:38.990 --> 38:40.050]  Yeah, that would be totally...
[38:40.050 --> 38:41.590]  Yeah, but it's more legal costs.
[38:41.870 --> 38:42.430]  No, but it's not.
[38:42.470 --> 38:43.270]  That's a prosecution's bill.
[38:43.270 --> 38:43.810]  It's not legal counsel.
[38:44.370 --> 38:45.510]  It's an expert witness.
[38:45.650 --> 38:50.490]  Oh, wait, you're trying to tell me that Leon Gold is worth $4 million for a few weeks of his time?
[38:50.490 --> 38:51.550]  I don't think so.
[38:51.550 --> 38:52.350]  It's a compelling thing, you know.
[38:52.470 --> 38:52.630]  Yeah.
[38:53.110 --> 38:56.070]  Well, that should tell you how truthful they are in all other matters.
[38:56.410 --> 38:56.730]  Sure.
[38:57.330 --> 39:01.650]  Well, I'll tell you, anything more than $1,000 is going to be a major hassle for us.
[39:01.730 --> 39:03.410]  So, I don't know.
[39:03.590 --> 39:06.510]  I'd like to know exactly what it is that they're talking about as far as that goes.
[39:06.510 --> 39:08.870]  Of course, we are appealing this to the appellate court.
[39:08.890 --> 39:09.850]  We're looking forward to that.
[39:09.910 --> 39:10.950]  We expected this to happen.
[39:11.430 --> 39:16.290]  We didn't expect the animosity that this decision raised.
[39:16.950 --> 39:18.290]  It was like vitriol.
[39:18.450 --> 39:20.030]  It was just the most...
[39:20.710 --> 39:22.050]  It was vitriolic.
[39:22.310 --> 39:22.550]  Mm-hmm.
[39:22.870 --> 39:23.250]  Absolutely.
[39:23.670 --> 39:30.270]  And also, one other thing that I have to point out is that this wouldn't be possible without EFF's help.
[39:30.930 --> 39:34.990]  And please, run to their website and become part of them.
[39:35.350 --> 39:40.070]  Make contributions as much as you possibly can because that will go directly into this case, into the appeal.
[39:40.490 --> 39:43.450]  And that will make it possible for us to continue to fight.
[39:43.810 --> 39:46.850]  Because I don't know where we'd be if they weren't around.
[39:46.990 --> 39:48.350]  So, they're willing to take this all the way.
[39:48.450 --> 39:48.990]  Yes, absolutely.
[39:49.110 --> 39:50.430]  And that has been the case from the beginning.
[39:50.610 --> 39:52.070]  We knew this was going to be a prolonged fight.
[39:53.990 --> 39:59.230]  www.eff.org is the address to contribute.
[39:59.230 --> 40:02.170]  And just head over there right now and do whatever you can.
[40:02.230 --> 40:03.210]  Or head over there anytime, really.
[40:03.550 --> 40:05.930]  That was one of the questions I asked Robin at Hope.
[40:05.970 --> 40:10.950]  If she was going to, you know, be around for the long haul of the appeals process, if you happen to lose.
[40:11.190 --> 40:12.190]  She said, absolutely.
[40:12.190 --> 40:14.410]  We're willing to take this all the way up to the Supreme Court.
[40:14.890 --> 40:15.150]  Yeah.
[40:15.450 --> 40:16.430]  Got a big round of applause.
[40:16.570 --> 40:17.390]  Beyond the Supreme Court.
[40:17.630 --> 40:17.790]  Yeah.
[40:18.290 --> 40:18.690]  Intergalactic.
[40:18.850 --> 40:19.650]  Higher authority.
[40:20.350 --> 40:21.150]  Won't we...
[40:21.150 --> 40:32.370]  If you want to be selfish about this, I really, people should seriously consider donating money to the EFF because if they don't, it's going to cost them a lot more later out of their pockets as a consumer.
[40:32.650 --> 40:32.970]  Mm-hmm.
[40:33.950 --> 40:34.930]  Think about it, folks.
[40:35.190 --> 40:36.190]  Well, you know, not just...
[40:36.190 --> 40:36.830]  This is an excellent investment.
[40:37.070 --> 40:38.570]  Not just from a consumer point of view.
[40:38.650 --> 40:39.850]  How about from a freedom point of view?
[40:39.930 --> 40:41.930]  How about the things that you're not allowed to do anymore?
[40:41.950 --> 40:44.690]  How about, you know, your right of speech being curtailed?
[40:44.690 --> 40:45.230]  Yeah.
[40:45.230 --> 40:47.330]  Because it's all going to happen.
[40:47.550 --> 40:49.250]  And it's all happening right now.
[40:49.430 --> 40:51.310]  This DMCA is making it possible.
[40:51.670 --> 40:55.870]  And believe me, there'll be more things like the DMCA once that becomes established.
[40:55.870 --> 41:00.410]  There'll be all kinds of laws restricting how you can express yourself, what you can and cannot do.
[41:00.810 --> 41:02.030]  It's a real nightmare.
[41:02.390 --> 41:03.450]  We saw it coming.
[41:03.750 --> 41:06.710]  It's hard to believe it's here, but we have to fight.
[41:06.890 --> 41:07.870]  Find your congressmen.
[41:08.430 --> 41:09.830]  Yeah, and replace them.
[41:09.830 --> 41:10.630]  Yeah.
[41:10.990 --> 41:12.010]  Unless you can find...
[41:12.010 --> 41:16.610]  Find congressmen that will say they are against what the DMCA stands for.
[41:16.730 --> 41:19.950]  And if they won't say that, then put somebody else in their place.
[41:20.610 --> 41:22.270]  You know, I keep hearing people say...
[41:22.270 --> 41:24.190]  I had this conversation with people all throughout the week.
[41:24.450 --> 41:26.990]  This whole thing about voting for the lesser of two evils.
[41:27.090 --> 41:27.790]  It's nonsense.
[41:28.130 --> 41:31.530]  You have to replace the machine if the machine is broken.
[41:31.870 --> 41:38.310]  Not, you know, put the cheapest part in or the part that, you know, will break down, you know, a week later than the other part.
[41:38.310 --> 41:38.570]  Right, no.
[41:38.810 --> 41:41.250]  If the machine is broken, you replace it.
[41:41.350 --> 41:44.130]  And you find people that will stand up for what you believe in.
[41:44.250 --> 41:45.710]  Not the lesser of two evils.
[41:46.130 --> 41:48.950]  Hey, Emmanuel, I wonder if you call your legislator's office.
[41:49.150 --> 41:49.370]  Mm-hmm.
[41:50.010 --> 41:51.690]  Whether you can ask...
[41:51.690 --> 41:52.710]  I guess you can ask them anything.
[41:52.990 --> 41:54.350]  You better be able to ask them anything.
[41:54.350 --> 41:55.210]  They're representing you.
[41:56.990 --> 42:00.090]  How did you vote on this particular bill?
[42:00.470 --> 42:00.630]  Right.
[42:00.630 --> 42:01.010]  You know?
[42:01.470 --> 42:09.010]  Since it was a verbal vote, there's no record in the congressional record as to who voted how, which I think is just obscene in and of itself.
[42:10.190 --> 42:13.950]  But, you know, we've got to have some accountability of these lawmakers.
[42:14.010 --> 42:27.810]  So I think maybe somebody should, people should start calling a legislator and sending, you know, sending an email to OTH at 2600 what their legislator, how their legislator voted by calling their legislator.
[42:27.910 --> 42:29.030]  How did you vote on this?
[42:30.210 --> 42:40.430]  I've heard people say, and, you know, this really makes me laugh, that we have to vote for Gore because he's going to put in more liberal Supreme Court justices and they'll override this kind of thing.
[42:40.590 --> 42:45.830]  And, you know, this guy, Kaplan, was appointed by Clinton, for God's sake.
[42:45.990 --> 42:47.490]  That's... it doesn't mean anything.
[42:47.710 --> 42:49.970]  The Democratic Party is in the pocket of Hollywood.
[42:50.190 --> 42:52.810]  You know, they had that convention out there in Los Angeles.
[42:53.310 --> 42:54.530]  Jack Valente was there.
[42:54.650 --> 42:56.610]  Bill Clinton's going to be the next Jack Valente.
[42:56.610 --> 42:58.790]  They... it's... it's... it's meaningless.
[42:59.370 --> 43:02.250]  They... that both parties are just as corrupt as far as this goes.
[43:02.430 --> 43:03.910]  And you have to realize that.
[43:04.090 --> 43:05.870]  There's not one that's going to save anything.
[43:06.190 --> 43:10.210]  It's the system that really is... is... is flawed here and has to be fixed.
[43:10.590 --> 43:12.170]  And, uh, we're in a position to do that.
[43:12.250 --> 43:13.450]  We're in a position to raise some awareness.
[43:14.350 --> 43:15.610]  And now let's take some phone calls.
[43:15.730 --> 43:17.650]  212-209-2900.
[43:18.130 --> 43:19.430]  Let's, uh... let's go over here.
[43:20.030 --> 43:20.630]  Good evening.
[43:20.750 --> 43:21.210]  You're on the air.
[43:22.750 --> 43:23.150]  Hello.
[43:23.150 --> 43:23.590]  Speak up, please.
[43:23.670 --> 43:23.910]  Go ahead.
[43:24.310 --> 43:25.830]  Hey, it's... how you doing?
[43:26.830 --> 43:29.970]  Hey, I was, uh, wondering about that, uh, DMCA thing.
[43:30.130 --> 43:35.270]  Hey, um, what did the judge, uh, did... how did the judge act about that?
[43:36.370 --> 43:38.390]  I'm not sure what you mean, how did the judge act about that?
[43:38.610 --> 43:40.470]  Well, I mean, was he more in your favor?
[43:40.570 --> 43:44.730]  Was he more in the, you know, the... you know, the MPAA's favor?
[43:45.810 --> 43:46.250]  Can I take this one?
[43:46.250 --> 43:46.330]  Well, that's...
[43:46.330 --> 43:46.790]  Can I take this one?
[43:46.790 --> 43:48.730]  That's a tough question right there.
[43:49.850 --> 43:51.050]  What, did this guy just wake up?
[43:51.990 --> 43:54.530]  I'd say he was a little slanted towards the other side.
[43:54.550 --> 43:55.350]  Would you say that, Isaac?
[43:55.710 --> 43:58.090]  Mmm, I would go that far, yes.
[43:58.230 --> 43:58.870]  Good Lord.
[43:59.350 --> 44:01.050]  You found for the MPAA, folks.
[44:01.190 --> 44:01.630]  Yeah, I sure did.
[44:01.710 --> 44:01.970]  Good evening.
[44:02.070 --> 44:02.530]  You're on the air.
[44:02.530 --> 44:03.030]  Hi.
[44:03.190 --> 44:10.970]  I'm wondering if you should consider whether fair use in the age of digital technology has to come to an end.
[44:11.130 --> 44:17.970]  How do we... you know, the Constitution gives absolute protection to intellectual property owners.
[44:18.150 --> 44:20.690]  The only limitation is the term.
[44:20.970 --> 44:22.530]  They decide 14 years.
[44:22.690 --> 44:24.650]  Thomas Jefferson wanted 19 years.
[44:24.850 --> 44:26.430]  But that was the only compromise.
[44:26.430 --> 44:31.590]  Other than that, they had complete control for those... for that period of time.
[44:31.590 --> 44:44.850]  Now, in the digital age where, as you said, people can copy things and the value of copyright gets lost, perhaps we have to make a fundamental change.
[44:45.310 --> 44:51.870]  And by the way, fair use never existed until 50 years after the Constitution was adopted.
[44:52.170 --> 44:57.310]  So perhaps we simply have to end fair use in this new digital age.
[44:57.310 --> 45:03.330]  You know, the reason this country is so far advanced is because copyright was put into the Constitution.
[45:03.330 --> 45:04.690]  No other country has it.
[45:04.770 --> 45:07.150]  That's why we're light years ahead of everybody else.
[45:07.450 --> 45:10.390]  I don't know if we're light years ahead of anybody else, to be honest.
[45:10.870 --> 45:11.490]  Well, obviously...
[45:11.490 --> 45:13.290]  Technologically, we are still in the lead.
[45:13.290 --> 45:31.310]  But, so far as the fair use argument, I would say that it should remain in place and you instead start prosecuting the people who are going about violating the copyright law and not those people who are going about doing the research on whatever measures you're taking to try and protect the copyright.
[45:31.590 --> 45:37.990]  I mean, the criminal here is the person who is copying your material and redistributing it.
[45:39.710 --> 45:47.350]  Yeah, it seems obvious that, you know, the act of theft is the stealing, not the knowledge of how, you know, how it works.
[45:49.590 --> 45:51.690]  One thing I wanted to bring up was...
[45:51.690 --> 45:54.810]  Remember that little bit by Thomas Jefferson I showed you a while ago?
[45:54.910 --> 46:03.170]  If we're going to take into consideration the original intent of the framers of the Constitution, we should think about what Thomas Jefferson has to say about copyrights.
[46:03.170 --> 46:08.770]  He thinks that they're basically absurd, that ideas should freely spread from one person to another.
[46:08.910 --> 46:20.190]  He actually said in print that they should be like a candle and that just because someone else lights my candle doesn't mean that my candle is diminished if they light their candle from mine.
[46:20.410 --> 46:22.350]  In fact, this is the way ideas should spread.
[46:22.450 --> 46:25.750]  They should spread like from candle to candle around the world.
[46:25.930 --> 46:31.550]  And that owning an idea is one of the most absurd things possible, actually.
[46:31.550 --> 46:33.550]  Do you know what Judge Kaplan would have done with Thomas Jefferson?
[46:33.650 --> 46:35.930]  Oh, you would have kicked him out of the courtroom, held him for contempt?
[46:36.210 --> 46:36.750]  Oh, boy.
[46:37.050 --> 46:43.450]  Well, on the other hand, you still have people who are putting their heart, soul, money, and energy into producing, say, for instance, music.
[46:43.670 --> 46:45.630]  And they're looking for some return on that.
[46:46.290 --> 46:51.270]  Yeah, and there are people who are doing the exact same thing who are not being represented at all by these kinds of interests.
[46:51.550 --> 46:54.250]  That doesn't mean we should squash fair use at all.
[46:54.450 --> 46:55.310]  No, no, definitely not.
[46:55.730 --> 46:56.670]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:02.130 --> 47:02.830]  Okay, I'm sorry.
[47:03.250 --> 47:11.670]  Do me a favor and just cover some of the points that you made in your paper about the analogy with the assassination.
[47:12.170 --> 47:12.750]  Oh, boy.
[47:13.570 --> 47:14.850]  Yeah, this is now a paper?
[47:15.030 --> 47:15.070]  Okay.
[47:15.070 --> 47:16.990]  I thought it was some kind of enraged rant.
[47:17.370 --> 47:18.490]  No, it's basically...
[47:18.490 --> 47:20.910]  Well, I mean, it turned into a paper when people printed on paper, I guess.
[47:21.010 --> 47:26.690]  But, yeah, well, basically, one of the other things that the judge compared it to was a political assassination.
[47:26.690 --> 47:32.530]  He said that source code is no more speech than a political assassination is a political statement.
[47:33.070 --> 47:42.770]  And, you know, you can just talk about this all day, but basically a political assassination is a completed act, for one thing, whereas source code is, you know, you can't say it any other way.
[47:42.830 --> 47:43.310]  It's speech.
[47:43.470 --> 47:49.350]  It's something that you write out and, you know, somebody decides to take that speech and do something with it, that's fine.
[47:49.350 --> 47:52.630]  I mean, you know, that's, you know, another act in itself.
[47:53.590 --> 47:59.890]  And then if they run a program and do something that, you know, assassinate somebody, that's your political assassination right there.
[47:59.990 --> 48:03.950]  But the political assassination is a completed act, all right, and the...
[48:03.950 --> 48:05.290]  And the actor is the criminal.
[48:05.570 --> 48:05.790]  Mm-hmm.
[48:05.970 --> 48:10.270]  And the source code is... I mean, you can't say this any other way.
[48:10.590 --> 48:14.810]  I don't understand his point at all, what he was trying to say as far as that goes.
[48:14.810 --> 48:21.930]  I also got a little frustrated with the definitions that the judge was using in the other paper that was so much longer.
[48:21.930 --> 48:25.210]  I actually had to stop reading it because I found mistakes.
[48:25.550 --> 48:25.710]  Yeah.
[48:26.210 --> 48:29.930]  Well, I mean, that's what we need people to do is find mistakes and respond.
[48:29.930 --> 48:31.770]  We're going to try, and it's a lot of work.
[48:31.870 --> 48:44.250]  We're going to try and go through some of the hundreds of responses we've gotten and put them up on our site as well so people can have a voice themselves and point out things that, you know, that may not have been pointed out before.
[48:44.810 --> 48:48.010]  You know, everybody has a unique view on this kind of a thing.
[48:48.170 --> 48:54.330]  For instance, a very important point that somebody brought up earlier was the DECSS program.
[48:54.630 --> 48:55.310]  Well, guess what?
[48:55.370 --> 48:57.310]  You know, we're offering DECSS.zip.
[48:57.550 --> 48:58.790]  It's not actually the program.
[48:58.810 --> 48:59.530]  It's a zipped file.
[48:59.610 --> 49:02.790]  You still have to unzip it to get to the point where it's executable file.
[49:02.870 --> 49:08.050]  So it's like it's not even... you don't click on it and you run the program like they would lead us to believe.
[49:08.550 --> 49:09.850]  You have to do certain things.
[49:09.910 --> 49:11.170]  You have to set things up properly.
[49:11.230 --> 49:14.570]  It's, you know, it's not something that's that simple like the judge makes it out to be.
[49:14.810 --> 49:15.330]  All right.
[49:15.390 --> 49:15.890]  Thanks for that call.
[49:16.610 --> 49:18.730]  Let's go over here.
[49:18.970 --> 49:19.250]  Good evening.
[49:19.350 --> 49:19.750]  You're on the air.
[49:20.970 --> 49:23.690]  Yes, I have something very important to talk about today.
[49:25.450 --> 49:25.930]  Emmanuel?
[49:26.270 --> 49:26.610]  Yes.
[49:27.310 --> 49:31.170]  When I try calling 911 to help somebody, guess what I got?
[49:32.270 --> 49:33.170]  I don't know.
[49:33.270 --> 49:33.830]  The MPAA.
[49:34.350 --> 49:35.210]  The MPAA.
[49:35.370 --> 49:38.830]  I got a voice saying... a recording saying, you have reached 911.
[49:39.650 --> 49:42.050]  The following is for TDD, for the deaf.
[49:42.310 --> 49:44.050]  Then they play the TDD tone.
[49:44.490 --> 49:48.550]  That is not what you're supposed to be getting on 911.
[49:49.350 --> 49:52.730]  That is for, I believe, 311 or 511 or something like that?
[49:52.730 --> 49:55.850]  Yeah, that's... it sounds like they mismatched.
[49:56.030 --> 49:59.690]  Well, what you should do is report that phone and follow up on it.
[49:59.690 --> 50:01.290]  Then I expect a full report on this.
[50:02.470 --> 50:03.090]  All right.
[50:03.350 --> 50:04.330]  You do that.
[50:04.670 --> 50:05.430]  And, uh...
[50:05.430 --> 50:07.450]  911 should definitely go to 911.
[50:07.750 --> 50:08.590]  There's no question about that.
[50:09.350 --> 50:09.930]  Good evening.
[50:10.090 --> 50:10.630]  You're on the air.
[50:12.210 --> 50:13.030]  Speak up, please.
[50:14.730 --> 50:15.170]  Okay.
[50:15.230 --> 50:16.010]  You got to speak up.
[50:16.350 --> 50:17.390]  You got to speak up.
[50:17.590 --> 50:17.810]  Yeah.
[50:19.070 --> 50:19.490]  Good evening.
[50:19.550 --> 50:20.010]  You're on the air.
[50:21.830 --> 50:22.590]  Anybody there?
[50:23.090 --> 50:23.310]  Hello?
[50:23.550 --> 50:24.010]  Yes, go ahead.
[50:24.330 --> 50:24.550]  Hi.
[50:24.610 --> 50:24.910]  How are you doing?
[50:24.910 --> 50:26.530]  But I'm very glad I got through.
[50:27.350 --> 50:31.790]  I'm a musician, and what I hear you talking about is very frightening.
[50:32.490 --> 50:36.530]  I gather a lot of influences from different musicians I've heard over my lifetime.
[50:36.850 --> 50:42.710]  And that almost sounds to me like, you know, pretty soon I'm not going to be allowed to use that in my own music.
[50:43.910 --> 50:45.170]  But I did have one question.
[50:47.610 --> 50:56.170]  As far as CD recordables, is there any way that certain manufacturers can make them only play in certain players, their own players?
[50:56.390 --> 50:56.690]  Yes.
[50:56.830 --> 50:57.110]  Absolutely.
[50:57.350 --> 50:57.570]  Sure.
[50:57.930 --> 50:58.210]  Okay.
[50:58.350 --> 51:01.270]  They do that with the audio CD recordables.
[51:01.750 --> 51:02.070]  Right.
[51:02.150 --> 51:02.850]  That's what I was saying.
[51:03.070 --> 51:06.330]  You know, trying to make a backup of my own music to play in my car, let's say.
[51:06.510 --> 51:06.770]  Mm-hmm.
[51:06.890 --> 51:08.090]  And, um...
[51:08.090 --> 51:09.450]  You know, if I don't have...
[51:09.850 --> 51:11.450]  It'll play in my house, but not my car.
[51:11.730 --> 51:13.510]  Or my wife's car, but not my house.
[51:14.110 --> 51:14.610]  You know?
[51:14.750 --> 51:15.770]  And, um...
[51:15.770 --> 51:19.030]  I mean, is this part of this whole thing that's coming around?
[51:19.030 --> 51:20.430]  They can basically make whatever rules...
[51:20.430 --> 51:21.010]  Imagine this.
[51:21.130 --> 51:24.830]  They could make music that you can only listen to in a car player.
[51:25.270 --> 51:25.630]  You know?
[51:25.750 --> 51:26.630]  It's only driving music.
[51:26.850 --> 51:27.750]  You can't listen to it in your home.
[51:27.790 --> 51:29.550]  Readily, but I don't think that's the difficulty he's having.
[51:29.670 --> 51:30.590]  We like the car region code.
[51:31.690 --> 51:32.130]  Mobile?
[51:32.370 --> 51:32.490]  Yeah.
[51:32.810 --> 51:33.670]  The mobile region code.
[51:33.670 --> 51:34.350]  The mobile region code.
[51:34.470 --> 51:34.530]  Right.
[51:34.530 --> 51:35.770]  Which actually exists, by the way.
[51:35.850 --> 51:36.870]  I think it's like number eight.
[51:36.910 --> 51:39.510]  It's intended for airline flights and whatever else.
[51:39.910 --> 51:40.230]  Oh, wow.
[51:40.230 --> 51:41.270]  I don't think...
[51:41.270 --> 51:41.490]  Yeah.
[51:41.590 --> 51:44.250]  I don't think this is the problem he's having.
[51:44.250 --> 51:51.830]  I think it's more likely some kind of issue with a player that's not recognizing a table of contents properly or it's having difficulty with the media itself.
[51:51.830 --> 51:54.950]  Wait, are you talking about an existing situation or something you're foreseeing in the future?
[51:55.230 --> 51:55.490]  I think it's hypothetical, right?
[51:55.490 --> 51:55.630]  Yeah.
[51:55.850 --> 51:56.550]  Is it hypothetical?
[51:57.290 --> 52:13.110]  I'm actually talking about something where I've made a backup of a CD that I purchased in the store and on my computer burned it on a CDR and tried to play it in my car and it will play in my car player but it won't play in my home player or vice versa.
[52:13.110 --> 52:14.910]  That's not a copywriting...
[52:14.910 --> 52:16.010]  That's not a protection thing.
[52:16.030 --> 52:18.050]  That's a technical problem of some sort.
[52:18.170 --> 52:24.450]  I was just wondering if certain manufacturers may be trying to gear their CDs toward their players.
[52:24.470 --> 52:25.430]  Oh, is it possible?
[52:25.830 --> 52:26.270]  Yes.
[52:26.630 --> 52:26.810]  Yeah.
[52:27.030 --> 52:27.870]  Is it out there?
[52:27.890 --> 52:28.310]  That's what's going on here.
[52:28.410 --> 52:31.630]  Try buying a higher quality CDR.
[52:32.070 --> 52:33.730]  Well, higher quality media especially.
[52:33.990 --> 52:34.150]  Yeah.
[52:34.370 --> 52:34.730]  That's what I meant.
[52:35.290 --> 52:45.030]  I just want to thank you very much because I wasn't really aware of how big this is and how far-reaching this is and you've really opened my eyes to this whole situation.
[52:45.470 --> 52:45.670]  Well, thanks.
[52:46.270 --> 52:55.470]  And I really feel like I need to do something, you know, on my level, you know, whatever I can to get involved and I will visit the website that you mentioned earlier.
[52:55.610 --> 52:57.050]  Please tell as many people as you can.
[52:57.210 --> 52:58.530]  That's the best thing you could possibly do.
[52:58.650 --> 52:59.910]  Before you go, I have a question.
[53:00.230 --> 53:00.530]  Okay.
[53:00.550 --> 53:01.150]  You're a musician.
[53:01.690 --> 53:01.910]  Right.
[53:02.070 --> 53:05.510]  Are you interested in perhaps distributing your work or do you do that now?
[53:06.370 --> 53:07.990]  No, not at this time.
[53:07.990 --> 53:08.230]  All right.
[53:08.290 --> 53:12.410]  Well, in the future, if you were to consider doing that, would you stand for...
[53:12.410 --> 53:22.370]  Or rather, would you be friendly towards these kind of protections like the DMCA or would you prefer to go about some of the more traditional means of enforcing copyright?
[53:22.990 --> 53:24.790]  Well, I like what you said before.
[53:24.930 --> 53:37.670]  I would not be in favor of all of this because what you said earlier about ideas being free to go from person to person, you know, that's what speaks to me.
[53:37.850 --> 53:42.270]  I feel that, you know, the government is really, really trying to gain so much control.
[53:42.670 --> 53:51.770]  And I think people like yourselves are showing the government that, you know, we can be smarter than they are, you know, and taking the control back.
[53:51.770 --> 54:04.010]  I think the internet and being, you know, technologically savvy is the way that we can take the control back, you know, with the people and take it out of the hands of the government and big business and all of this kind of stuff.
[54:04.710 --> 54:05.890]  Because that's what's scary.
[54:06.050 --> 54:21.230]  It's scary that big business seems to be, you know, getting bigger and bigger and having ultimate control over everything that we see and hear to the point where, you know, you can put an antenna on your roof and you can get, you know, a couple of channels that,
[54:21.230 --> 54:26.690]  you know, you have to pay for now, I'm sorry, you know, that used to be free.
[54:27.350 --> 54:35.410]  You know, like I could watch television, but now I have to pay, you know, this big company to watch, you know, regular channels that used to be free.
[54:36.410 --> 54:39.330]  You know, cable vision and satellite systems and stuff like that.
[54:39.510 --> 54:48.750]  And tomorrow I'm going to, you know, put a roof antenna on my house and try to get as many Yeah, it's becoming increasingly difficult by now.
[54:50.010 --> 54:53.230]  Yeah, there are all kinds of issues here, all kinds of symptoms of the same problem.
[54:53.610 --> 54:55.170]  And we could talk about it for hours.
[54:55.310 --> 54:56.090]  Thanks very much for the call.
[54:56.310 --> 54:57.750]  Thank you very much for taking my call.
[54:57.830 --> 54:59.390]  You see, that man is an artist.
[54:59.790 --> 55:00.050]  Yeah.
[55:00.170 --> 55:06.250]  He's more interested in getting his music out there than having to, you know, have every single person who purchases his music...
[55:06.250 --> 55:16.870]  Well, I think if you're going to speak for the music community and the artist, you should speak to people who actually are artists, not the business people who represent them, supposedly, because most of the time they don't.
[55:16.970 --> 55:23.690]  Most of the time they're simply trying to line their own pockets and they make up these crazy rules that don't really help anybody except them.
[55:24.090 --> 55:30.790]  And I think, you know, if you want the real opinion of the people making the music, making films, writers, go to them.
[55:30.950 --> 55:32.130]  Ask them directly.
[55:32.350 --> 55:45.670]  On the other hand, I've heard from a lot of artists who are very concerned about fair use and the fact that they can have their music copied, to which I usually tell them, yes, well, we understand your concerns, but, you know, 50 years ago, there wasn't much of an issue.
[55:45.930 --> 55:48.770]  You would prosecute the person who was going about the copying.
[55:48.910 --> 56:03.750]  See, I find most people who don't already have major recording contracts with these companies, that they welcome people listening to their music in whatever way possible, playing it on the radio, recording it, you know, spreading it around, because that is what leads to people hearing their music,
[56:03.810 --> 56:08.930]  which is why they're doing it in the first place, and that leads to all kinds of other things, which is what it's all about.
[56:08.930 --> 56:14.030]  It reaches a point when it just turns into dollars and big business, which I don't believe copyright law was supposed to be.
[56:14.150 --> 56:18.050]  It's not supposed to be some way that, you know, you can line your pockets.
[56:18.270 --> 56:18.450]  Right.
[56:18.850 --> 56:29.570]  For instance, and this is, you know, for the benefit of the Judge Kaplan's out there who don't seem to quite get it as far as copyright goes, we copyright the webpage, we copyright the magazine, we welcome people spreading the information around.
[56:29.570 --> 56:33.990]  This goes for the radio show, this goes for anything we write on the webpage, this goes for anything that we print in the magazine.
[56:33.990 --> 56:37.930]  People are welcome to copy it and spread it around and show other people.
[56:38.210 --> 56:45.190]  The only thing that copyright, that we see copyright as preventing, is people going out there and publishing our magazine for us and taking our name.
[56:45.270 --> 56:46.290]  They print out the website.
[56:46.290 --> 56:46.530]  Yeah.
[56:46.530 --> 56:47.570]  They sell it for 20 bucks.
[56:47.790 --> 56:48.490]  And taking credit for it.
[56:48.650 --> 56:53.310]  That is what copyright, in my eyes, is meant to protect you from, from people stealing.
[56:53.450 --> 56:53.510]  Exactly.
[56:53.510 --> 56:54.050]  And that is stealing.
[56:54.290 --> 56:54.990]  That's the point.
[56:55.170 --> 56:55.390]  All right.
[56:55.470 --> 56:58.670]  And if someone were to be doing that, you would be prosecuting them, I imagine.
[56:59.190 --> 57:01.990]  Well, we'd be doing all kinds of things to them, but we'll get into that some other time.
[57:02.450 --> 57:03.530]  So, let's go over here.
[57:03.770 --> 57:04.330]  Good evening.
[57:04.450 --> 57:04.950]  You're on the air.
[57:05.910 --> 57:06.630]  Hello, it's Adam Manuel.
[57:06.910 --> 57:07.490]  Yes, go ahead.
[57:07.850 --> 57:08.290]  How are you doing?
[57:09.030 --> 57:10.330]  I just wanted to make a couple of points.
[57:10.430 --> 57:25.870]  First of all, to commiserate on the result of the case, but I think that the actual fact that DCSS is out there and that as further encryption systems are designed, that there will also be circumventions which will be designed to respond to them.
[57:25.870 --> 57:29.790]  And I think that, you know, the law won't matter in the long term.
[57:29.790 --> 57:33.270]  But I just wanted to enjoy your listeners' attention to two other things.
[57:33.510 --> 57:36.890]  One of them is the No Electronic Theft Act from 1997.
[57:37.890 --> 57:57.670]  I know that all during the case, you've, you know, made it clear the distinction between what you view as the purpose of DCSS and piracy, but the No Electronic Theft Act makes it punishable with up to a year in prison and a fine of over $100,000 for the reproduction of just one copy of a copyright work worth over $1,000,
[57:57.670 --> 57:59.650]  which could be umpteen pieces of different software.
[58:00.870 --> 58:06.550]  Alternatively, for making ten copies, you can get up to three years in prison and a fine of a quarter of a million dollars.
[58:07.010 --> 58:14.950]  And the first person was actually, the point about this legislation, the big difference it makes in terms of traditional copyright law, is that you don't have to have a commercial objective.
[58:15.450 --> 58:21.730]  It doesn't matter, even if you're making no money off it, even if you're just putting it up on a private website to allow other people to access it.
[58:21.830 --> 58:26.330]  Well, that makes the law very easy to selectively prosecute, go after anybody you want.
[58:26.450 --> 58:27.450]  Well, that, I feel, is wrong.
[58:27.570 --> 58:31.690]  You're dealing with a monetary transaction where you are purchasing something from another individual.
[58:31.690 --> 58:32.690]  It is now yours.
[58:33.270 --> 58:36.790]  I mean, this ought to be... this used to be very simple.
[58:36.870 --> 58:38.410]  Now, for some reason, it's getting very complex.
[58:38.470 --> 58:41.390]  Now, you're simply buying the license to use it as they tell you to.
[58:41.510 --> 58:43.210]  That's all you're buying.
[58:43.210 --> 58:44.390]  You're not buying any, you know...
[58:44.390 --> 58:50.830]  You have to listen to this CD, however many times they say in whatever environment and, you know, whatever volume they say you have to listen to it.
[58:50.830 --> 58:51.850]  Which is an important distinction.
[58:52.030 --> 58:52.150]  Yeah.
[58:52.310 --> 58:58.730]  And as long as the market is going to deal with that and is going to stand for it, they're going to continue to do it.
[58:58.850 --> 59:00.910]  Well, you know, you can always get people to buy things.
[59:01.310 --> 59:02.250]  Just look around you.
[59:02.870 --> 59:04.230]  This goes beyond the market.
[59:04.410 --> 59:06.230]  This goes to social justice.
[59:06.490 --> 59:08.910]  And this goes to people speaking out and being counted.
[59:09.190 --> 59:10.910]  And that's what we need people to do right now.
[59:11.130 --> 59:12.150]  Just get out there.
[59:12.370 --> 59:13.570]  Spread the word about this.
[59:13.950 --> 59:14.970]  Let people know about this.
[59:15.070 --> 59:16.090]  Call your elected officials.
[59:16.370 --> 59:17.390]  Get the word out.
[59:17.530 --> 59:18.650]  Keep checking our site.
[59:18.830 --> 59:21.250]  Send us an email, OTH at 2600.com.
[59:21.510 --> 59:25.690]  We'll be having leafletting all throughout the world in the weeks and months ahead.
[59:25.690 --> 59:27.650]  And we'd sure like you to be a part of that.
[59:27.770 --> 59:29.410]  So please, stay tuned to this radio show.
[59:29.650 --> 59:32.650]  Keep checking the website, www.2600.com.
[59:32.730 --> 59:35.410]  Keep reading 2600 and we'll have information in there as well.
[59:36.150 --> 59:40.890]  I actually called the MPAA yesterday to voice my opinion to them.
[59:41.030 --> 59:41.410]  And what happened?
[59:41.690 --> 59:42.470]  They weren't there.
[59:42.570 --> 59:43.550]  They said they'd call me back.
[59:43.730 --> 59:44.010]  Did they?
[59:44.350 --> 59:44.550]  Nope.
[59:44.730 --> 59:44.930]  Okay.
[59:44.930 --> 59:46.450]  I gave them my real phone number and everything.
[59:46.510 --> 59:47.090]  They didn't have their phone number, do you?
[59:48.550 --> 59:49.790]  You don't have their phone number, do you?
[59:50.310 --> 59:51.050]  No, not on me.
[59:51.130 --> 59:51.470]  I'm sorry.
[59:51.650 --> 59:52.610]  It's on that...
[59:52.610 --> 59:54.890]  If you go to the website and read the...
[59:54.890 --> 59:55.810]  Do I have it on me, Rob?
[59:55.810 --> 59:57.370]  I think it's on in the printout, yeah.
[59:58.270 --> 01:00:00.530]  Well, I don't have it handy, but it's not the end of the website.
[01:00:00.670 --> 01:00:00.950]  You can...
[01:00:00.950 --> 01:00:01.830]  We'll give it out next week.
[01:00:02.550 --> 01:00:03.450]  Let them know how you feel.
[01:00:03.530 --> 01:00:04.550]  Let everybody know how you feel...
[01:00:04.550 --> 01:00:05.490]  We'll see you next week, good night.
[01:00:06.050 --> 01:00:08.930]  I hope that's understood by making me go...
[01:01:31.730 --> 01:01:45.150]  I'm Walter Krokmall, reminding you that whenever you are out of town, you can still listen to this commercial-free, listener-sponsored community radio, WBAI 99.5 FM, on the web.
[01:01:45.150 --> 01:01:48.650]  Our address is porus.com.
[01:01:48.690 --> 01:01:52.370]  That's P-O-R-U-S dot com.
[01:01:52.610 --> 01:01:54.830]  And please, honor your pledges.