[00:01.830 --> 00:03.630]  9 to 10 p.m. here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:09.830 --> 00:13.350]  You're sure to find something new and sometimes controversy.
[00:23.970 --> 00:30.450]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York, where the time is 8 o'clock.
[00:31.830 --> 00:32.950]  Time once again for Off-Doc.
[02:20.110 --> 02:23.550]  And a good
[02:27.400 --> 02:28.000]  evening to everybody.
[02:28.000 --> 02:29.020]  The program is off the hook.
[02:29.320 --> 02:30.260]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:30.660 --> 02:31.960]  Isaac over there on the other side of the room.
[02:32.120 --> 02:32.600]  How you doing, sir?
[02:32.640 --> 02:32.920]  How you doing?
[02:33.040 --> 02:33.780]  It's new.
[02:34.080 --> 02:34.660]  Oh, not much.
[02:34.700 --> 02:36.020]  Anything happen in New York while I was away?
[02:36.560 --> 02:38.100]  This whole UN thing just started.
[02:38.260 --> 02:39.280]  Ah, the UN thing, yes.
[02:39.520 --> 02:40.540]  A little bit of traffic out there.
[02:40.600 --> 02:41.280]  A little bit of traffic.
[02:41.500 --> 02:44.220]  Well, they're expecting 90 demonstrations this week.
[02:44.660 --> 02:44.980]  90.
[02:45.120 --> 02:45.600]  9-0.
[02:45.860 --> 02:47.000]  90 demonstrations of what?
[02:47.820 --> 02:51.100]  Motorists expressing their frustration and not being able to get where they want to go.
[02:51.100 --> 02:52.000]  Oh, I can see that.
[02:52.060 --> 02:58.100]  But apart from that, no, it's just a lot of leaders in town.
[02:58.340 --> 02:58.600]  Yes.
[02:58.780 --> 02:59.720]  Well, Fidel just arrived.
[03:00.080 --> 03:01.840]  Oh, he arrived in his own motorcade.
[03:01.920 --> 03:02.980]  Everyone's got a motorcade.
[03:03.140 --> 03:03.820]  Oh, yeah, of course.
[03:04.940 --> 03:08.020]  Just, you know, well, we're going to close off this street for the next week.
[03:08.400 --> 03:10.520]  He drove all the way up 95, though, from Florida.
[03:10.620 --> 03:10.860]  Oh, he did?
[03:10.960 --> 03:11.160]  Yeah.
[03:11.760 --> 03:13.020]  So it was a lot more complicated.
[03:13.220 --> 03:13.800]  Miami took all the way up.
[03:13.900 --> 03:14.040]  Okay.
[03:14.060 --> 03:14.200]  Yeah.
[03:14.760 --> 03:16.700]  Closing traffic all throughout the United States.
[03:16.840 --> 03:18.280]  But, yeah, Fidel's in town.
[03:19.220 --> 03:20.480]  He's just settling in right now.
[03:21.120 --> 03:23.320]  Laura Lustre, his president, is in town, too, I believe.
[03:23.680 --> 03:23.880]  Uh-huh.
[03:24.160 --> 03:25.860]  Yeah, Clinton's up there, and...
[03:26.600 --> 03:28.340]  Maybe he and Fidel can pal around a bit.
[03:28.340 --> 03:29.320]  I don't know if it's Bush in town.
[03:30.440 --> 03:30.940]  It's funny.
[03:31.100 --> 03:37.200]  You know, everyone's all going crazy over this remark he made over the New York Times, you know.
[03:37.200 --> 03:48.360]  He called him, you know, a nasty name, which technically you can say on the air, but I'm not going to say it, because I think it will demean my show to quote Bush, so I don't want to do that.
[03:48.700 --> 03:49.800]  You can quote him if you want.
[03:50.020 --> 03:50.800]  No, I'm not going to quote him.
[03:50.800 --> 03:51.280]  Yeah, good idea.
[03:51.360 --> 03:51.880]  No, it's a good idea.
[03:52.080 --> 03:54.480]  It brings you down when you quote people like that.
[03:54.600 --> 03:56.460]  This wasn't something that was supposed to be...
[03:56.460 --> 04:03.060]  But the interesting thing about that, and the thing nobody seems to be focusing on, is in his defense of it, what he said was...
[04:03.060 --> 04:03.840]  Did you hear his defense?
[04:03.840 --> 04:04.380]  Yes, I heard this.
[04:04.420 --> 04:04.800]  What did he say?
[04:04.800 --> 04:07.260]  I regret that people heard me say it.
[04:07.420 --> 04:07.540]  Right.
[04:07.720 --> 04:09.280]  He was only speaking to who?
[04:09.460 --> 04:12.600]  He was only speaking to his vice presidential candidate, Cheney.
[04:12.660 --> 04:13.920]  Ah, but he didn't say it that way.
[04:14.200 --> 04:15.260]  Did you hear how he said it?
[04:15.360 --> 04:15.540]  No.
[04:15.640 --> 04:17.480]  He said he was speaking to Vice President Cheney.
[04:17.640 --> 04:17.840]  Yes.
[04:18.420 --> 04:19.300]  So you did hear it.
[04:19.420 --> 04:19.700]  Okay.
[04:19.860 --> 04:20.080]  Ah.
[04:21.000 --> 04:22.220]  You thought I wouldn't pick up on that.
[04:22.300 --> 04:22.720]  Well, no.
[04:23.220 --> 04:25.020]  He's already referring to him as the vice president.
[04:25.280 --> 04:26.540]  Well, they got it in the bag, man.
[04:27.000 --> 04:27.320]  Yeah.
[04:27.520 --> 04:30.760]  They got it in the bag, or it might not be the bag you wanted to be in, but they got it in the bag.
[04:31.420 --> 04:32.920]  I don't even know what that means, but it sounds good.
[04:34.660 --> 04:36.300]  Well, I was just out in California.
[04:36.500 --> 04:37.080]  I just got back.
[04:37.640 --> 04:37.960]  Oh, yes.
[04:38.500 --> 04:38.820]  Torcon.
[04:39.140 --> 04:39.460]  Torcon.
[04:39.640 --> 04:40.560]  Torcon was really good.
[04:40.740 --> 04:41.600]  I had a lot of fun there, yeah.
[04:41.820 --> 04:46.760]  You know, I have to say, I think the smaller conventions just have a lot more sincerity.
[04:46.760 --> 04:48.180]  You can actually learn things there.
[04:48.300 --> 04:53.300]  We had, you know, a couple hundred people show up, and it was a really good environment, you know?
[04:53.360 --> 04:57.600]  It wasn't one of these commercial super cons, like certain ones I could name.
[04:58.600 --> 04:59.160]  And, uh...
[04:59.160 --> 05:00.840]  Well, it's a lot more friendly and personal.
[05:01.120 --> 05:01.400]  Exactly.
[05:01.700 --> 05:01.940]  Exactly.
[05:02.240 --> 05:04.660]  You find your small group of drinking buddies, and...
[05:04.660 --> 05:10.520]  Yeah, but you see, unlike the other one, it's not, you know, you don't go there just to drink, which is what most people go there for.
[05:10.620 --> 05:12.520]  They go there just to, you know, get all messed up, and, uh...
[05:12.520 --> 05:13.320]  Well, yes, that's not the goal.
[05:13.320 --> 05:17.720]  And, unfortunately, you lose a lot of, uh, a lot of, um, you know, direction.
[05:18.320 --> 05:18.880]  But, you know...
[05:18.880 --> 05:19.420]  I was joking.
[05:19.620 --> 05:22.000]  There were a bunch of people that, uh, that had some interesting comments.
[05:22.000 --> 05:24.240]  One of them was that, uh, well, over at DEF...
[05:24.240 --> 05:35.560]  Well, I guess I can say DEF CON, the big one in Vegas, they have, like, you know, 8,000 people this year, uh, but they had the same amount of people breaking, breaking into root on the machine as they did when they had 500 people.
[05:35.660 --> 05:38.920]  So that's got to tell you something about, uh, the progression of the scene.
[05:39.160 --> 05:39.360]  Correct.
[05:40.060 --> 05:41.760]  So, uh, it's, it's kind of sad.
[05:41.880 --> 05:44.140]  But it's heartening to see, uh, to see smaller cons.
[05:44.220 --> 05:45.120]  We want to hear more about them.
[05:45.240 --> 05:49.820]  I'm sure there'll be other ones in other places, and, uh, we'll, we'll support them as we hear about them.
[05:50.020 --> 05:51.380]  Did you show, uh, the movie?
[05:51.380 --> 05:52.500]  Yes, and that's the other thing.
[05:52.640 --> 05:55.020]  They, they let me show the film, which is really kind of nice.
[05:55.260 --> 05:57.520]  Uh, Freedom Downtime was, was shown on Saturday night.
[05:57.880 --> 05:59.240]  Uh, actually, we had two screenings.
[05:59.320 --> 06:00.540]  We had one on Saturday, one on Sunday.
[06:00.700 --> 06:04.940]  One on Sunday was in LA, um, at a, at a, like, an actual Burbank studio.
[06:04.940 --> 06:07.640]  We went to a Burbank studio and, and, and, and screened it.
[06:07.780 --> 06:08.860]  Did our dear friend show up?
[06:08.900 --> 06:09.960]  And Kevin was there, yes.
[06:10.100 --> 06:10.220]  Yay!
[06:10.220 --> 06:12.260]  Kevin, Kevin got to see it, and he'll be on the show later on.
[06:12.400 --> 06:13.900]  He'll, he'll, he'll tell us his impressions of it.
[06:14.120 --> 06:14.300]  Okay.
[06:14.420 --> 06:15.060]  So, uh...
[06:15.060 --> 06:16.220]  He's gonna do impressions of you?
[06:16.260 --> 06:16.920]  No, he's not gonna do impressions.
[06:17.060 --> 06:18.060]  He's gonna tell us his impressions.
[06:18.060 --> 06:18.980]  Oh, his impressions, I see.
[06:19.300 --> 06:19.580]  Yes.
[06:20.520 --> 06:26.940]  A couple of interesting reader pieces of mail here concerning court cases and things like that.
[06:27.800 --> 06:30.280]  Dear Off the Hook, keep up the defy it behind you all the way.
[06:30.420 --> 06:36.700]  Judge Kaplan doesn't know much about what's available on video if he thinks that consumers should make fair use of video cassettes rather than DVDs.
[06:36.700 --> 06:37.420]  Here are two examples.
[06:37.660 --> 06:40.400]  Chris Marker's short film... get that for me, please.
[06:41.060 --> 06:41.660]  Oh, there it is.
[06:41.900 --> 06:42.320]  I got it.
[06:44.280 --> 06:44.680]  Okay.
[06:45.540 --> 06:47.400]  This person has been blacklisted.
[06:50.080 --> 06:52.620]  You will be escorted from the planet in an orderly fashion.
[06:53.060 --> 06:53.060]  Yeah.
[06:53.300 --> 06:53.500]  Hang on.
[06:53.640 --> 06:54.800]  Just power that down.
[06:56.380 --> 06:57.180]  Okay, that's good.
[06:57.240 --> 06:57.580]  Very good.
[06:59.140 --> 06:59.540]  All right.
[07:00.500 --> 07:00.920]  Yeah.
[07:01.740 --> 07:07.480]  Chris Marker's short film, La Jete, was never officially released on video, but it was released on DVD.
[07:07.820 --> 07:09.000]  You're going to see a lot more of that.
[07:09.080 --> 07:09.220]  Yeah.
[07:10.060 --> 07:20.220]  Joseph Cornell's short film, Rose Hobart, was never officially released on video, and even bootlegs are near impossible to find, but I've heard there are plans to release it on DVD as part of a Smithsonian collection.
[07:20.740 --> 07:24.440]  Both of these films are classic works of cinema that are often taught in film classes.
[07:24.900 --> 07:28.540]  In the case of Rose Hobart, film prints are exceedingly difficult to come by.
[07:28.880 --> 07:32.360]  What should teachers, students, and critics do when they need an excerpt from these films?
[07:32.480 --> 07:40.880]  To follow Kaplan's advice, they would need to find a bootleg of the film, or does Judge Kaplan think that we should only study films officially released on video?
[07:42.320 --> 07:51.220]  It should be noted that Joseph Cornell made Rose Hobart in 1936 by re-editing Rose Hobart's scenes from the 1931 film East of Borneo.
[07:51.920 --> 07:56.500]  What options does an artist have if he or she wishes to make a new collage from Cornell's film?
[07:56.600 --> 07:58.720]  Thanks to Judge Kaplan and the MPAA, none.
[08:00.660 --> 08:04.320]  That mixed media argument is just lame.
[08:05.300 --> 08:06.260]  It has...
[08:06.260 --> 08:11.140]  Well, hopefully in your appeal, it will be seen as being as pathetic as it is.
[08:11.240 --> 08:11.640]  What's lame?
[08:11.960 --> 08:13.220]  The entire idea of...
[08:13.220 --> 08:14.780]  As far as having to use a...
[08:14.780 --> 08:18.680]  Yeah, well, if you want to go for fair use, go out and buy the VHS cassettes.
[08:19.080 --> 08:22.280]  Wait a second, I own a DVD, why can't I use that?
[08:22.640 --> 08:26.820]  But, yeah, that entire argument is basically lame.
[08:26.980 --> 08:28.440]  Yeah, I have to agree.
[08:29.440 --> 08:30.720]  Uh, okay.
[08:31.080 --> 08:35.620]  This morning I heard a Verizon ad on the radio touting their 411 directory assistance service.
[08:35.780 --> 08:38.200]  It tried to emphasize the training the operators get.
[08:38.300 --> 08:42.800]  So, by example, they played a quiz session where the instructor asked a question and a rep answered.
[08:42.920 --> 08:48.320]  The instructor asks Georgia, and the rep answers four area codes, followed by some more stats.
[08:48.580 --> 08:50.440]  I was flabbergasted that they let this on the air.
[08:50.540 --> 08:55.520]  Even my SNET slash SBC June 2000 phone book shows five NPAs.
[08:55.920 --> 08:59.380]  And with 229 and 478 going active August 1st, that makes seven.
[09:02.120 --> 09:03.120]  Just goes to show you.
[09:03.300 --> 09:05.480]  I found it more shocking that they would put that on the air.
[09:05.560 --> 09:07.700]  I would have thought AT&T would, you know, come down on them.
[09:07.780 --> 09:09.620]  Because they want to charge a buck every time you want to know.
[09:09.740 --> 09:10.240]  Yeah, that's right.
[09:10.560 --> 09:11.660]  That's proven on this very program.
[09:11.660 --> 09:13.400]  Free information, just to find things like that out.
[09:13.600 --> 09:16.560]  But, well, I guess when they give out free information, it's wrong.
[09:16.680 --> 09:19.260]  Maybe if you had paid for that information, you would have gotten the right answer.
[09:19.380 --> 09:19.680]  How about that?
[09:19.680 --> 09:19.900]  Oh, okay.
[09:20.100 --> 09:20.260]  Yeah.
[09:21.000 --> 09:22.860]  So that's why Verizon really sucks.
[09:23.020 --> 09:25.180]  But, you know, we still can't get verizonsucks.com.
[09:25.280 --> 09:26.080]  They're still holding on to that.
[09:26.760 --> 09:28.060]  And they don't have anything on the site.
[09:28.240 --> 09:28.740]  Isn't that something?
[09:31.340 --> 09:33.440]  Well, here's something on the latest with Madonna.
[09:33.680 --> 09:38.140]  The United Nations should not have the ability, this is a letter, to tell people of the U.S.
[09:38.160 --> 09:39.540]  what they can and can't have.
[09:40.420 --> 09:46.340]  They're referring, of course, to WIPO telling people that Madonna can have Madonna.com.
[09:46.380 --> 09:48.200]  Actually, did they rule on Madonna?
[09:48.420 --> 09:48.880]  I don't know.
[09:48.880 --> 09:49.740]  I think she was just...
[09:49.740 --> 09:50.700]  She was going to...
[09:50.700 --> 09:52.340]  She was trying to get Madonna.com, right.
[09:53.040 --> 09:55.420]  The United Nations should not have the ability to tell people of the U.S.
[09:55.460 --> 09:56.720]  what they can and can't have.
[09:57.120 --> 09:58.400]  It would be nice if that worked both ways.
[09:58.400 --> 10:03.060]  Just because it's the internet or the World Wide Web does not mean we should give them power.
[10:03.320 --> 10:05.240]  The majority of the internet is in the United States.
[10:05.260 --> 10:10.460]  While I'm not saying our country should dictate the entire network, but because we shouldn't have to listen to other countries tell us what we can and cannot do.
[10:11.220 --> 10:12.020]  Blah, blah, blah.
[10:12.460 --> 10:17.720]  Such a good number of the rulings are on the side of America, but what happens when an anti-American view becomes stronger in the UN?
[10:21.010 --> 10:23.490]  Yeah, this is why this thing's like WIPO.
[10:23.750 --> 10:24.630]  Because of...
[10:24.630 --> 10:25.990]  Oh, I don't think so.
[10:26.170 --> 10:26.750]  You don't think so?
[10:26.830 --> 10:28.730]  There is nothing wrong with American sovereignty.
[10:28.730 --> 10:30.570]  Well, yeah, in America, fine.
[10:30.670 --> 10:33.750]  But American sovereignty in other countries and in the UN, I don't think, is right.
[10:35.770 --> 10:39.490]  You don't think the UN is owned, operated, and controlled by the U.S.?
[10:39.490 --> 10:40.030]  I sure do.
[10:40.150 --> 10:41.550]  I'm not sure, for God's sake.
[10:42.390 --> 10:43.590]  We control policy.
[10:43.670 --> 10:44.130]  Well, let's see.
[10:44.230 --> 10:46.050]  There are representatives from four other nations.
[10:46.050 --> 10:46.750]  That's right, there are.
[10:47.610 --> 10:48.250]  Including corporations.
[10:49.090 --> 10:49.650]  Corporations now...
[10:49.650 --> 10:53.330]  Thanks to Kofi Annan, corporations now can waltz in and dictate policy.
[10:53.490 --> 10:54.070]  You aware of that?
[10:54.450 --> 10:56.450]  He's opened up the doors to American corporations.
[10:56.590 --> 11:00.870]  And that's why you've got things like WTO and IMF, that's being shoved down people's throats.
[11:01.110 --> 11:02.310]  And the German corporations.
[11:02.310 --> 11:05.010]  They don't hold a candle to a good old American corporation.
[11:05.270 --> 11:06.230]  They don't hold a candle to them.
[11:07.230 --> 11:12.370]  And to prove that, tonight we're going to go out to one of the famous fast food Japanese places that have been springing up all over the country.
[11:13.390 --> 11:13.750]  Yeah.
[11:14.330 --> 11:16.450]  We'll drive my Japanese car built in the United States.
[11:17.630 --> 11:17.990]  Okay.
[11:18.130 --> 11:18.570]  Yeah, sure.
[11:19.750 --> 11:21.270]  So, WIPO.
[11:21.330 --> 11:23.030]  Well, WIPO is a big waste of time, I think.
[11:23.290 --> 11:24.690]  But for completely different reasons.
[11:24.750 --> 11:27.450]  Because I don't think corporations should be dictating policy.
[11:27.870 --> 11:29.230]  And I can prove that right here.
[11:29.350 --> 11:32.590]  The current issue of Industry Standard had a really good article I read on the airplane.
[11:33.530 --> 11:39.070]  Kenneth Harvey never intended to confuse shoppers when he registered the domain name walmartcanadasucks.com.
[11:39.070 --> 11:40.250]  Remember I mentioned that site last week?
[11:40.330 --> 11:40.450]  Yes.
[11:40.590 --> 11:41.710]  This is the actual site.
[11:41.890 --> 11:45.790]  The 38-year-old writer from Newfoundland says he just wanted to get under Walmart's skin.
[11:46.010 --> 11:56.110]  After all, Walmart had already convinced an international arbitrator to strip him of the walmartcanada.com domain without compensating him for the $70 registration fee.
[11:56.770 --> 11:58.070]  But his ploy backfired.
[11:58.230 --> 12:05.950]  Instead of securing a new forum to speak his mind, last month, another arbitrator took the walmartcanadasucks.com address from Harvey.
[12:06.350 --> 12:17.150]  So goes the latest incarnation of the main dispute resolution, now conducted by four organizations worldwide, CPR Institute, eResolutions, the National Arbitration Foundation, and the World Intellectual Property Organization.
[12:17.310 --> 12:19.190]  Which one of those is in Japan, Isaac?
[12:19.850 --> 12:20.470]  Uh-huh.
[12:21.050 --> 12:26.630]  Most notable is WIPO, which joined the United Nations in the 1970s to help protect intellectual property rights.
[12:26.810 --> 12:32.350]  The new arbiters take up where the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers left off.
[12:32.410 --> 12:33.390]  Your friends from ICANN.
[12:33.390 --> 12:34.150]  Oh, ICANN.
[12:34.430 --> 12:35.130]  Don't get me started.
[12:36.330 --> 12:37.370]  I wish I could.
[12:37.790 --> 12:41.790]  Last year, ICANN took over administering domain names from the U.S.
[12:41.930 --> 12:48.290]  government and adopted a policy that forces allegations of infringing registrations to go to arbitration instead of national courts.
[12:48.390 --> 12:59.410]  But a growing number of free speech advocates, academics, and consumer representatives allege that some of the arbitrators, WIPO first among them, are expanding the definition of what constitutes trademark in cyberspace.
[12:59.630 --> 13:05.050]  On average, more than three out of four cases processed this year have been decided in favor of corporations.
[13:05.390 --> 13:05.890]  Okay.
[13:06.030 --> 13:08.970]  The losers, individuals, speculators, and smaller businesses.
[13:09.190 --> 13:18.930]  Most of these cases have involved, quote, cyber squatters, people who register domains, often in bad faith, in the hope of extracting profits from companies that have a legitimate claim on the names.
[13:19.110 --> 13:20.310]  That's what cyber squatters are.
[13:20.310 --> 13:22.770]  That's not necessarily what every single one of these complaints is about, though.
[13:23.510 --> 13:27.350]  But some decisions have transferred ownership of names involving generic terms.
[13:27.550 --> 13:32.090]  The address crew.com was awarded in April to apparel maker J.
[13:32.290 --> 13:33.150]  Crew International.
[13:33.630 --> 13:34.710]  Oh, that's a little much.
[13:34.710 --> 13:39.090]  Even though the term is commonly used for everything from the rowing sport to the group that pilots a ship.
[13:39.570 --> 13:42.750]  Some other cases have involved misspellings of trademark names.
[13:42.930 --> 13:58.550]  Yahoo, three weeks ago, was awarded 40 variations of its name and that of its GeoCity subsidiary, including Ehu, Eocities, this is all .com, Yahoo, Yahoo, Y-A-H-U, Yanu, and Iahu.
[13:59.450 --> 14:01.510]  Even geographical locations hang in the balance.
[14:01.610 --> 14:04.890]  Ownership of Barcelona.com was recently awarded to the Spanish city.
[14:04.990 --> 14:10.290]  The name was removed from an American speculator, although in the U.S., place names aren't considered trademarks.
[14:11.730 --> 14:18.450]  A statistical study by Syracuse University professor Milton Muller found that arbitrators tend to rule differently.
[14:19.230 --> 14:27.810]  WIPO and NAF panels rule in favor of the trademark holders about 80% of the time, while those cases decided by e-resolutions result in transfers only 55% of the time.
[14:27.950 --> 14:29.930]  So, you know, it's a scandal, I think.
[14:30.050 --> 14:35.890]  I really believe WIPO is horribly in favor of the big guys almost all the time.
[14:35.890 --> 14:37.410]  So, what do we do about it?
[14:37.810 --> 14:38.810]  Um, good question.
[14:38.890 --> 14:41.810]  Well, I guess, you know, the UN's right up the street.
[14:41.830 --> 14:43.850]  We can start by protesting there.
[14:44.090 --> 14:45.130]  And, uh, and...
[14:45.130 --> 14:46.030]  Well, I mean, how do you vote up?
[14:46.030 --> 14:46.750]  What is that going to do?
[14:47.030 --> 14:48.630]  What is... nothing... it's not going to do anything.
[14:48.710 --> 14:49.410]  Nothing's going to do anything?
[14:49.570 --> 14:50.790]  You don't have been protesting over...
[14:50.790 --> 14:51.810]  Everyone's already upset.
[14:52.350 --> 14:53.550]  So, what do you think we should do, then?
[14:54.270 --> 14:54.590]  Well...
[14:54.590 --> 14:55.370]  You seem pretty upset, Dave.
[14:55.450 --> 14:56.550]  Gritting your teeth, clenching your fists.
[14:56.630 --> 14:57.150]  What are you going to do?
[14:57.270 --> 15:04.910]  Well, it is an international organization, and the only reason they would have some sort of control over us is, uh, by treaty or other agreement.
[15:04.910 --> 15:06.890]  Yeah, you say, but who has control over them?
[15:07.230 --> 15:09.310]  Well, that would be the United States Senate.
[15:09.870 --> 15:10.050]  Uh-huh.
[15:10.550 --> 15:12.150]  Yeah, I say the Senate has control over the UN.
[15:12.750 --> 15:13.190]  Over the WIPO.
[15:13.190 --> 15:18.110]  No, basically, we can pull ourselves out of the UN or say we're not going to comply with this.
[15:19.090 --> 15:19.810]  We're only...
[15:19.810 --> 15:22.270]  We're the ones that put it in there in the first place.
[15:22.270 --> 15:22.790]  Don't you get it?
[15:22.790 --> 15:25.090]  We're only subject to WIPO because we've agreed to be subject to them.
[15:25.090 --> 15:29.090]  Yeah, but WIPO is something that was started by American corporations.
[15:29.290 --> 15:29.530]  Okay.
[15:29.890 --> 15:30.990]  Because it benefits them.
[15:31.310 --> 15:35.930]  So, how do we, you know, maybe the UN isn't where we should be directing our corporations don't vote.
[15:36.370 --> 15:41.630]  Well, thanks to, thanks to the new UN, corporations have a big say in policy.
[15:41.870 --> 15:43.310]  And WIPO is living proof of that.
[15:43.470 --> 15:46.070]  And so is DMCA, which is an American thing.
[15:46.250 --> 15:53.890]  But that's, that's being, uh, carried over into other parts, other regions of the globe and made into new laws over there as well.
[15:53.890 --> 15:57.150]  So, you'll see DMCA's all over the place with different names.
[15:57.690 --> 15:59.070]  And you'll see more cases.
[15:59.070 --> 16:02.430]  We have a, we have a case, uh, concerning the Radio Shack.
[16:02.550 --> 16:03.170]  Have you heard about this?
[16:03.310 --> 16:05.730]  The Radio Shack barcode, uh, decoder software package?
[16:06.690 --> 16:08.050]  Is that that cat thing?
[16:08.250 --> 16:08.310]  Yeah.
[16:08.310 --> 16:09.010]  The mouse thing?
[16:09.190 --> 16:09.350]  Or...
[16:09.350 --> 16:11.290]  In fact, uh, it had me in my bag.
[16:11.430 --> 16:13.130]  I think it was...
[16:13.130 --> 16:14.590]  The bag's over there somewhere.
[16:14.790 --> 16:16.850]  I've, uh, I got one of these in San Diego at, uh...
[16:16.850 --> 16:17.130]  Thank you.
[16:17.530 --> 16:19.890]  The Radio Shack barcode thing.
[16:20.090 --> 16:20.310]  Yeah.
[16:21.050 --> 16:22.650]  He's digging around in his bag, right?
[16:24.210 --> 16:25.390]  Is that the kitchen sink?
[16:26.170 --> 16:26.450]  Nah.
[16:27.170 --> 16:28.590]  You know, maybe I didn't bring it.
[16:28.670 --> 16:29.330]  I thought I brought it.
[16:30.750 --> 16:31.710]  Let me look in this other side.
[16:31.750 --> 16:32.150]  Oh, here it is.
[16:32.330 --> 16:32.490]  There.
[16:32.690 --> 16:32.970]  Okay.
[16:33.090 --> 16:33.790]  This thing right here.
[16:34.070 --> 16:35.370]  Aw, it looks like a little mouse.
[16:36.290 --> 16:38.650]  Looks like something else, too, but I'm not gonna say what that looks like.
[16:38.850 --> 16:41.790]  Uh, but yeah, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's a portable barcode reader.
[16:42.170 --> 16:42.490]  Okay.
[16:42.490 --> 16:43.810]  Uh, it's called the, the QCAT.
[16:44.130 --> 16:45.110]  Oh, it looks like a little cat.
[16:45.110 --> 16:48.630]  And it's passed out, it's passed out for your subscriptions to Forbes Magazine and the Radio Shack catalog.
[16:48.630 --> 16:51.010]  You can probably go down to Radio Shack and Social Engineer, one of these things.
[16:51.290 --> 16:51.570]  Mm-hmm.
[16:51.870 --> 16:58.910]  Uh, and the idea is consumers install the QCAT software and use the scanner to scan in the barcode associated with certain advertisements.
[16:59.510 --> 17:04.210]  Uh, once the barcode is scanned into the computer, the software will direct the user's browser to the product's webpage.
[17:04.210 --> 17:10.290]  So this is like those customer response cards where you go to the thing in the middle of the magazine, you circle number 172.
[17:10.390 --> 17:12.130]  Yeah, except this you plug directly into your machine and it takes you there.
[17:12.250 --> 17:12.390]  Okay.
[17:12.730 --> 17:14.270]  There's a hidden side to the QCAT, however.
[17:14.610 --> 17:17.810]  With every scan of a barcode, the QCAT gives out a unique serial number.
[17:18.050 --> 17:27.190]  When you receive a QCAT at Radio Shack or from Forbes, for that matter, this serial number can be associated with your name, address, phone number, or whatever else Forbes or Radio Shack happens to know about you.
[17:27.490 --> 17:31.110]  This information could be used in other involuntary marketing campaigns.
[17:31.290 --> 17:31.970]  Wouldn't that be nice?
[17:31.970 --> 17:34.670]  You could get junk mail or spam from television companies, for instance.
[17:34.950 --> 17:39.750]  The QCAT could not only direct you to the product you're interested in, it could be used for involuntary data mining.
[17:39.890 --> 17:41.230]  This is what it sounds like when it hits the ground.
[17:42.650 --> 17:43.270]  Pretty cool, huh?
[17:43.290 --> 17:43.610]  You want that?
[17:43.790 --> 17:44.290]  Yeah, take it.
[17:45.590 --> 17:53.730]  So, for this reason, various members of the open source community set about to write software for the QCAT that would mimic the proprietary Windows software provided.
[17:53.910 --> 17:54.750]  You see where we're going now?
[17:54.870 --> 17:55.410]  Yeah, I see where this is going.
[17:55.410 --> 17:57.350]  This process is called reverse engineering.
[17:57.350 --> 18:04.890]  Reverse engineering is a legal process by which a device or software component is duplicated without the aid of the originating company.
[18:05.230 --> 18:13.010]  When a device or software component is reverse engineered for use with another set of devices or software, it is called reverse engineering for purposes of interoperability.
[18:13.010 --> 18:17.750]  The purpose of reverse engineering the QCAT was to allow its use with the Linux operating system.
[18:18.150 --> 18:24.030]  Reverse engineering for purposes of interoperability is protected by the laws of most countries because it encourages competition and innovation.
[18:24.570 --> 18:30.490]  Clearly, the reverse engineering of the QCAT so that it would work with the Linux operating system qualifies for this distinction.
[18:31.110 --> 18:34.230]  The first steps to reverse engineering the QCAT were clear.
[18:34.350 --> 18:36.570]  They needed to decode the QCAT's weak encryption system.
[18:36.750 --> 18:38.570]  Most barcode scanners do not have encryption.
[18:38.990 --> 18:41.290]  The QCAT is not just a barcode scanner, however.
[18:41.290 --> 18:44.890]  However, the QCAT sends along a unique serial number for the device every time something is scanned.
[18:45.450 --> 18:47.050]  Decoding the encryption was trivial.
[18:47.410 --> 18:51.290]  Some simply scanned in a large number of barcodes, finding patterns in the output from the QCAT.
[18:51.710 --> 18:53.570]  Not a stretch for an interested mind.
[18:53.850 --> 19:03.130]  In the end, Jean-Philippe Sugarbroad figured out that Digital Convergence uses a modified version of Base64 encoding, a very simple encoding scheme.
[19:03.830 --> 19:08.470]  After the encryption scheme was decoded, one hesitates to call it encryption, as weak as it is.
[19:08.570 --> 19:08.990]  It's encoding.
[19:09.630 --> 19:12.470]  Developers began working on extending the QCAT's functionality.
[19:12.710 --> 19:18.370]  One developer is working on software that, like Windows software, directs the user to a specific product page where its barcode is scanned.
[19:18.670 --> 19:24.750]  This software expands the user base of the QCAT from Windows users only to include Linux users.
[19:25.490 --> 19:32.330]  Recently, cease and desist letters were sent to the developer of this software, Michael Rothwell, which forced him to stop distributing the software.
[19:32.510 --> 19:44.450]  Any software that expands a company's market share would normally be praised, unless that software limits a company's revenues in other ways, such as preventing a company from conducting data mining using the unique serial number on each QCAT.
[19:44.990 --> 19:57.090]  All alternative uses for the QCAT device that do not generate marketing information for digital convergence, be it as a doorstop, nightlight, or whatever, reduces their return on investment in the manufacture and distribution of the device.
[19:57.230 --> 19:58.750]  Naturally, they wish to maximize their profit.
[19:58.870 --> 20:08.430]  Apparently, they are willing to try frightening into submission people whose behavior conflicts with their plan to sell a database of individuals' consumer habits, preferences, and interests.
[20:08.430 --> 20:10.730]  You know what that company's waiting for, don't you?
[20:10.890 --> 20:11.290]  What's that?
[20:11.690 --> 20:13.230]  For your appeal to be overturned.
[20:14.530 --> 20:14.970]  Absolutely.
[20:15.230 --> 20:17.250]  Well, we're all watching various cases.
[20:17.330 --> 20:20.950]  But this is making a big splash in various communities.
[20:21.450 --> 20:24.110]  There are now mirror lists that are going up.
[20:24.470 --> 20:51.210]  And if you're interested in this, I suggest strongly that you visit this website, www.logorea.com slash QCAT C-U-E-C-A-T Once again, www.logorea.com L-O-G-O-R-R-H-E-A .com slash QCAT And there's a bunch of mirrors there.
[20:51.330 --> 20:52.490]  I've also the article I just read.
[20:53.290 --> 20:57.930]  And this is almost exactly the same thing as the DECSS case.
[20:57.930 --> 21:01.230]  Because the same basic mentality is behind developing the software.
[21:01.790 --> 21:03.490]  And you have the big companies for us.
[21:03.830 --> 21:05.590]  They actually quote part of the DMCA there.
[21:05.770 --> 21:05.950]  Right.
[21:06.110 --> 21:08.710]  Reverse engineering for the purposes of interoperability.
[21:09.030 --> 21:14.430]  But DMCA is being quoted in the cease and desist letters as well against them, saying that it's illegal to do this.
[21:14.670 --> 21:15.930]  But this is one of the permitted actions.
[21:16.210 --> 21:16.510]  Exactly.
[21:16.790 --> 21:19.430]  Not that you should have to have a law that says that, you know...
[21:19.430 --> 21:20.330]  You're allowed to do this, of course.
[21:20.430 --> 21:21.250]  Yeah, it's totally insane.
[21:22.870 --> 21:23.370]  All right.
[21:23.450 --> 21:27.350]  On the issue of insanity, check out the...
[21:28.530 --> 21:30.890]  Article that appeared, uh...
[21:30.890 --> 21:31.710]  Where was it?
[21:31.990 --> 21:32.590]  Hang on a second.
[21:32.710 --> 21:33.710]  I've got to, uh...
[21:33.710 --> 21:34.450]  Track it down.
[21:37.580 --> 21:39.460]  Perhaps you could send the QCAT to help you.
[21:39.640 --> 21:39.940]  Yeah.
[21:40.160 --> 21:40.300]  Yeah.
[21:40.360 --> 21:40.860]  Maybe I can.
[21:41.760 --> 21:43.240]  I wonder if it even printed out.
[21:43.320 --> 21:44.100]  Maybe it didn't print out.
[21:45.680 --> 21:48.980]  You know, some websites don't, uh...
[21:48.980 --> 21:51.160]  Don't print out things when you send them to them.
[21:52.180 --> 21:53.240]  I think this is one of them.
[21:53.760 --> 21:54.080]  Odd.
[21:54.740 --> 22:00.100]  Well, in any event, there was an article this week on a magazine that our friend Kevin Poulsen works at.
[22:00.380 --> 22:00.620]  Oh, yeah.
[22:00.620 --> 22:01.140]  Security Focus.
[22:01.620 --> 22:04.180]  All about how, um...
[22:04.180 --> 22:08.220]  How a certain company isn't hiring a certain computer hacker.
[22:08.440 --> 22:08.980]  Do you hear about this?
[22:09.080 --> 22:09.960]  Oh, I've heard about this.
[22:10.100 --> 22:10.220]  Yeah.
[22:10.600 --> 22:12.340]  It's caused quite a little uproar.
[22:12.820 --> 22:13.760]  Tell us what you've heard.
[22:14.140 --> 22:15.240]  Why continue looking for the article?
[22:15.240 --> 22:32.560]  Well, I've heard that, uh, AtStake, who happens to be the company that managed to decide to buy out the L0pht, our dear friends up in Boston, uh, were trying to romance, uh, another friend of ours, uh, Phiber Optik, into, uh, working with him.
[22:32.940 --> 22:33.200]  Yeah.
[22:33.640 --> 22:41.400]  And very recently, they decided to pull the plug on the whole issue because they discovered that he had a criminal past.
[22:41.780 --> 22:42.640]  How about that?
[22:42.860 --> 22:43.700]  Isn't this remarkable?
[22:44.100 --> 22:44.860]  Who'd have thunk it?
[22:45.080 --> 22:45.200]  Yeah.
[22:45.940 --> 22:49.380]  Uh, is that how it, uh, is that how it panned out, Phiber?
[22:49.720 --> 22:52.700]  Well, I don't know, um, yeah, something like that.
[22:53.460 --> 22:56.120]  Uh, although it's, uh, a bit more sinister, I suspect.
[22:57.200 --> 22:57.600]  Uh-huh.
[22:57.740 --> 23:00.400]  I'm thinking that, uh, uh, oh, I don't know.
[23:00.620 --> 23:02.020]  Uh, how could they not know?
[23:03.340 --> 23:03.660]  Yeah.
[23:03.740 --> 23:04.840]  That's what really puzzles me.
[23:04.940 --> 23:05.620]  It boggles the mind.
[23:05.720 --> 23:06.440]  Yeah, it boggles the mind.
[23:06.480 --> 23:09.640]  How many books, how many articles, how many times have we gone over it on this show?
[23:09.640 --> 23:12.380]  Well, not only that, not only that, but the people there know you personally.
[23:12.620 --> 23:12.660]  Yeah.
[23:12.760 --> 23:13.640]  You know, you've met these people.
[23:13.700 --> 23:14.300]  You've hung out with them.
[23:14.320 --> 23:15.420]  Of course, they all know what happened.
[23:15.540 --> 23:19.400]  They all know about the whole prison stint and, uh, you know, all the, all the newspaper stories.
[23:19.500 --> 23:21.480]  But here's the thing that really pisses me off more than anything.
[23:22.020 --> 23:23.020]  Uh, Hacker News Network.
[23:23.180 --> 23:24.260]  We, we read Hacker News Network.
[23:24.560 --> 23:27.100]  Hacker News Network was, uh, was part of the L0pht.
[23:27.320 --> 23:27.600]  Yeah.
[23:27.600 --> 23:28.540]  It was run by Space Rogue.
[23:28.660 --> 23:30.040]  Now, you know, recently.
[23:30.300 --> 23:30.460]  It was no longer part of that.
[23:30.460 --> 23:31.060]  No longer part of that.
[23:31.060 --> 23:33.040]  That's the other thing that, that kind of, uh, upsets me here.
[23:33.100 --> 23:40.460]  Apparently, uh, AtStake, wanted to have more of a, a direct control over HNN, and Space Rogue wasn't, uh, into that.
[23:40.460 --> 23:42.860]  So, all of a sudden, Space Rogue was just removed.
[23:43.140 --> 23:45.400]  He just was kicked out, purged, or whatever.
[23:45.700 --> 23:48.600]  And now, HNN is run directly by, AtStake, by somebody else.
[23:49.040 --> 23:53.120]  Um, and, uh, you know, I wasn't sure if that was going to make much of a difference in the way they covered things.
[23:53.200 --> 23:58.800]  But, uh, the story that they, that they ran about this particular case, uh, convinced me that, in fact, it, it will.
[23:58.800 --> 24:03.800]  Um, it, uh, this story was contributed by somebody named, uh, Janus Maximus.
[24:03.920 --> 24:06.320]  Is that, uh, someone who works there or just a contributor?
[24:06.540 --> 24:12.400]  Well, at any event, uh, the title is Shocking News, parentheses, Not, AtStake Won't Hire Criminals.
[24:12.900 --> 24:18.460]  Convicted computer criminals are having a difficult time getting hired by established Internet security consulting firms.
[24:18.680 --> 24:25.560]  In an article posted today, Mark Abene, aka Phiber Optik, describes his experience applying for a job at AtStake, the operator of HNN.
[24:25.560 --> 24:28.400]  And, uh, that right there made me stop it.
[24:28.500 --> 24:30.140]  Now, you didn't apply for a job there.
[24:30.200 --> 24:32.440]  They came to you wanting to recruit you, is that right?
[24:32.480 --> 24:32.860]  Absolutely.
[24:33.400 --> 24:35.720]  I, I never even called them.
[24:35.860 --> 24:37.060]  They were calling me.
[24:37.220 --> 24:45.060]  And, I mean, just for the record, I want to say that I don't hold the loft people personally responsible, um, unless I'm given a reason to.
[24:45.340 --> 24:45.600]  Mm-hmm.
[24:45.600 --> 24:47.120]  So far, I, I haven't been.
[24:47.320 --> 24:48.660]  That sounds like corporate folks.
[24:48.660 --> 24:54.200]  Yeah, it sounds like the corporate, the corporate higher-ups really have, uh, a real choke hold on them.
[24:54.200 --> 24:54.600]  Mm-hmm.
[24:54.780 --> 25:02.400]  And, uh, while they may not agree with, uh, their corporate overseer's opinions, uh, they're kind of forced to deal with them.
[25:02.880 --> 25:05.180]  And there comes a point, though, where you just have to say enough.
[25:05.320 --> 25:06.960]  And that's, I think, what's, what Space Rogue did.
[25:07.040 --> 25:09.020]  We just said, I'm not going to deal with this.
[25:09.100 --> 25:10.000]  I'm not going to let this happen.
[25:10.120 --> 25:11.700]  And the result was he got kicked out.
[25:12.040 --> 25:14.780]  And his, his creation, Hacker News Network, was taken over.
[25:15.040 --> 25:15.320]  Yeah.
[25:15.320 --> 25:26.100]  And, um, but, you know, I think that's easier than having to live with these, these bad decisions, you know, and, and having to print things that are blatantly untrue in the interest of public relations.
[25:26.340 --> 25:36.540]  The fact that we have no idea who that person is who wrote that for Hacker News, whether, whether it's somebody from AtStake or whether it was an anonymous, uh, contributor, we can only guess.
[25:36.540 --> 25:39.100]  Well, the, the headline undoubtedly was written by HNN, though.
[25:39.220 --> 25:41.400]  Shocking news, Not, AtStake Won't Hire Criminals.
[25:41.540 --> 25:41.700]  Yeah.
[25:41.840 --> 25:43.060]  Because, uh, contributors don't write the headline.
[25:43.680 --> 25:58.680]  Uh, anyway, to finish the, uh, the paragraph here, AtStake ultimately did not hire a ban a implicitly, implicitly suggested in the article is the assumption that all security consultants and, quote, gray hat hackers, unquote, that have used handles must have been indulging in rampant criminal activity in their wild teenage years,
[25:59.300 --> 26:02.760]  uh, no doubt with tattoos a blazing and body piercings on full display.
[26:03.100 --> 26:14.260]  An interesting theory, but one that the White House, NSA, and the military discounted years ago, uh, now, Phiber, unfortunately, I don't have, uh, apparently Security Focus, when you try to print an article, it just doesn't do it, I don't know why that is,
[26:14.360 --> 26:24.620]  so, if you have the article in front of you, there, there was a piece in there about somebody who, uh, admitted to this kind of thing that works with AtStake, that, uh, I think three years ago was, was up to something, but has completely reformed now,
[26:24.720 --> 26:26.340]  or was that somebody they were just interviewing?
[26:26.680 --> 26:27.900]  Uh, I can go to the site.
[26:28.100 --> 26:28.240]  Yeah.
[26:29.200 --> 26:31.300]  It's, uh, securityfocus.com, I believe, right?
[26:31.380 --> 26:31.560]  Yeah.
[26:31.920 --> 26:32.080]  Okay.
[26:34.140 --> 26:36.260]  And I found something else, uh, of interest, too.
[26:38.480 --> 26:40.260]  Which I'll get to as soon as you find that.
[26:44.850 --> 26:46.060]  Assuming you find it soon, though.
[26:46.600 --> 26:46.740]  Yeah.
[26:46.900 --> 26:47.020]  Yeah.
[26:47.430 --> 26:50.660]  Well, their site has a lot of eye candy on it, so it takes a while to load.
[26:51.430 --> 26:51.780]  Yeah.
[26:53.260 --> 26:54.340]  Okay, I'm at the article.
[26:54.580 --> 26:54.760]  Okay.
[26:54.880 --> 26:55.040]  There we go.
[26:56.670 --> 26:58.930]  Now you gotta find the part of the article that's, uh, that's pertinent.
[26:59.040 --> 27:00.080]  Now I'll parsing the article.
[27:00.260 --> 27:00.450]  Yeah.
[27:01.350 --> 27:06.460]  Okay, um, well, there's only three people I remember being mentioned in the article.
[27:07.020 --> 27:11.460]  There was me, there was, uh, Chris Goggins, of all people.
[27:11.960 --> 27:12.190]  Mm-hmm.
[27:12.430 --> 27:17.040]  And, uh, then there was some 20-year-old security kid who I'd never heard of.
[27:17.190 --> 27:18.620]  Yeah, that's what I was interested in.
[27:18.840 --> 27:19.040]  Yeah.
[27:20.420 --> 27:29.480]  Well, he, he's, he says that, uh, well, this, this, this goes back to, uh, the point that I was covering with, with Kevin Poulsen about this elitism that's going on.
[27:30.120 --> 27:40.840]  Um, this is somebody, uh, who's mentioned in the article as the chief hacking officer and co-founder of a company which we don't necessarily have to mention on the air.
[27:41.000 --> 27:41.210]  Okay.
[27:41.210 --> 27:46.580]  He says it's a California security software firm that recently raised $5 million in venture capital.
[27:46.930 --> 27:52.760]  He says that, this guy says that he'd hesitate before hiring an ex-Cybercon, as he called them.
[27:52.980 --> 27:53.260]  Okay.
[27:53.540 --> 27:57.950]  And he's quoted as saying, if somebody does have something on their record, they need to be that much better.
[27:58.120 --> 27:59.780]  They need to be twice as good.
[28:00.560 --> 28:08.600]  And he personally admits to a pass that includes cracking Pentagon computers, but says he'd hire himself because he is that good.
[28:09.260 --> 28:11.640]  And he's grown older and wiser since then.
[28:11.780 --> 28:12.140]  Oh, I see.
[28:12.160 --> 28:13.060]  This is three years ago.
[28:13.120 --> 28:13.320]  Yeah.
[28:13.380 --> 28:17.140]  And he's quoted finally as saying, that stuff happened like three years ago now.
[28:17.880 --> 28:19.300]  And when did your stuff happen?
[28:19.560 --> 28:20.520]  Uh, 10 years ago.
[28:20.660 --> 28:20.800]  Uh-huh.
[28:20.960 --> 28:21.320]  Okay.
[28:21.500 --> 28:22.600]  But he doesn't know you.
[28:22.820 --> 28:24.080]  He does not inside your head.
[28:24.400 --> 28:26.720]  This, this kid is 20 years old.
[28:26.950 --> 28:28.160]  Three years ago made him 17.
[28:28.500 --> 28:28.780]  Mm-hmm.
[28:29.260 --> 28:39.060]  I, I was, I was basically, I, I was caught 10 years ago and prosecuted largely for things that I did all the while I was a young teenager.
[28:39.300 --> 28:39.540]  Uh-huh.
[28:40.120 --> 28:41.800]  So, I mean, it's ancient history.
[28:43.420 --> 28:46.600]  And, you know, my, my legal past is an open book.
[28:47.280 --> 28:54.360]  And it just seems to me that if, if somebody like our friends in, uh, well, we know who they are.
[28:54.360 --> 29:08.540]  Or, if, if somebody at the company who, uh, was, was trying to hire me, uh, was not informed on what my past was, then it shows that, really shows how new they really are in this whole business.
[29:08.540 --> 29:10.540]  Well, there's no way they could not have known.
[29:10.720 --> 29:17.960]  I mean, if they have any connection whatsoever, and, and of course, they, they had everybody from the loft there supposedly, supposedly being part of this entire thing.
[29:18.100 --> 29:20.900]  And, obviously, there'd be communications between people in this company.
[29:20.900 --> 29:23.400]  So, it's, it's a, it's a smokescreen of some sort.
[29:23.740 --> 29:27.500]  Yeah, I can't really figure out what the whole, it was just really peculiar.
[29:27.860 --> 29:32.540]  On, on the one hand, the person from, from human resources was calling me almost every day.
[29:32.820 --> 29:33.000]  Mm-hmm.
[29:33.540 --> 29:50.240]  And, and, you know, really trying to get me to buy into the whole, the whole at stake, uh, you know, the whole family of, you know, and was telling me that they had recently purchased a, uh, a small group of, uh, hackers slash consultants in the Seattle area.
[29:50.450 --> 29:51.620]  Purchased a bunch of hackers.
[29:51.950 --> 29:52.690]  I love it.
[29:52.780 --> 29:53.280]  That's exactly.
[29:53.800 --> 29:55.020]  That's exactly what they did.
[29:55.100 --> 29:55.930]  They purchased people.
[29:56.160 --> 30:08.980]  And, uh, they didn't tell me who in Seattle this was, but, um, they said that it was, it was something that they do and that, uh, it was not completely out of the ordinary that they would make this offer to me and my company.
[30:09.220 --> 30:09.460]  Mm-hmm.
[30:10.220 --> 30:14.160]  And I, I specifically, I, I didn't immediately jump in their lap.
[30:14.160 --> 30:28.540]  So don't, don't think for a moment that I did, uh, I told them that I currently have a successful security consulting company and that it would take a hell of an offer to, you know, pry me away from that.
[30:29.210 --> 30:36.930]  And, you know, and they, they proceeded to try by, you know, making some, some nice offers.
[30:37.220 --> 30:39.460]  Nothing really got to the point of being in writing.
[30:39.460 --> 30:53.220]  Basically, after talking to me for a couple of days, um, it turns out that, uh, the people who this, uh, HR person wanted me to speak with were away at DEF CON and Black Hat.
[30:53.480 --> 30:56.000]  The, the Microsoft sponsored conferences in Vegas.
[30:56.210 --> 30:56.260]  Yeah.
[30:56.260 --> 30:57.620]  Well, these are the people who refused to hire criminal hackers.
[30:57.620 --> 30:58.950]  Do you know that they're sponsored by Microsoft?
[30:59.190 --> 30:59.450]  Oh, yeah.
[30:59.820 --> 31:02.300]  But they're hanging out at DEF CON for what purpose?
[31:02.450 --> 31:06.380]  Well, I'll get into, I'll get into my whole anger with the Black Hat thing in a moment.
[31:06.830 --> 31:13.600]  But, um, yeah, uh, so I was told by, uh, this, this girl in HR that, that, uh, you know...
[31:13.600 --> 31:14.960]  Don't, don't, don't, don't say HR.
[31:15.100 --> 31:15.820]  Okay, human resources.
[31:15.840 --> 31:16.160]  That's so corporate.
[31:16.500 --> 31:17.260]  Yeah, human resources.
[31:17.450 --> 31:19.220]  Even that's ridiculous, human resources.
[31:19.400 --> 31:20.780]  You ever think what an insulting word that is?
[31:21.020 --> 31:21.190]  Yes.
[31:22.170 --> 31:22.880]  Okay, go ahead.
[31:24.150 --> 31:33.800]  So, basically, uh, she told me that when they get back from their conference, their, their respective conferences, that, uh, they want to have a conference call with me and discuss the matter further.
[31:34.820 --> 31:40.560]  And, um, specifically, she kept making reference to Mudge and the other guys.
[31:40.710 --> 31:41.690]  Mudge and the other guys.
[31:41.800 --> 31:41.950]  Yeah.
[31:42.100 --> 31:42.300]  Mm-hmm.
[31:42.380 --> 31:44.320]  She never mentioned anybody else's name.
[31:44.800 --> 31:44.980]  Right.
[31:44.980 --> 31:45.560]  Always Mudge.
[31:45.720 --> 31:45.840]  Right.
[31:46.000 --> 31:49.820]  And, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't really, you know, fall into that trap.
[31:49.820 --> 31:52.520]  I don't hold Mudge personally responsible for what happened.
[31:53.000 --> 31:55.160]  And I know that he had nothing to do with the offer.
[31:55.950 --> 31:59.160]  But don't you think he could have, uh, he could have done something?
[31:59.360 --> 32:01.500]  He could have, uh, you know, made some sort of threat?
[32:01.710 --> 32:02.240]  He may not have even been aware of it.
[32:02.340 --> 32:03.660]  Yeah, but he's aware of it now.
[32:03.740 --> 32:05.080]  Yeah, he's definitely aware of it now.
[32:05.210 --> 32:05.260]  Well, now.
[32:05.260 --> 32:05.690]  But, I mean...
[32:05.690 --> 32:08.930]  He would have been made aware of it at the point when they turned me down.
[32:09.140 --> 32:09.380]  Mm-hmm.
[32:10.390 --> 32:10.740]  Um...
[32:10.740 --> 32:18.280]  And, you know, this, this whole, uh, defensive thing on HNN is, is, is, you know, tells me that they, they take offense at, that, at you objecting to this kind of treatment.
[32:18.740 --> 32:18.760]  Yeah.
[32:18.760 --> 32:20.860]  Which I think is just childish and, uh, and ridiculous.
[32:21.240 --> 32:21.480]  Yeah.
[32:21.980 --> 32:24.190]  You know, it's obviously wrong to, to treat people like this.
[32:24.190 --> 32:43.540]  Yeah, the thing that really, really angered me most was that never before, and I've done quite a bit of professional security work with large corporations, never before has anybody actually rejected me outright because of my legal history.
[32:44.040 --> 32:48.160]  I've never had a problem working for any number of companies.
[32:48.680 --> 32:51.360]  And it's ironic that these would be the people that would do it.
[32:51.360 --> 32:54.640]  Yeah, that these would be the people that I would expect that I could trust.
[32:54.640 --> 32:59.710]  So, of course, I felt quite betrayed by the whole offer and then re-neg.
[33:00.000 --> 33:06.860]  The interesting thing about it, Kevin Poulsen wrote the article, and the very end of the article, what's that tag he put in there?
[33:07.080 --> 33:09.080]  The reporter is a convicted hacker.
[33:09.540 --> 33:09.720]  Yes.
[33:10.960 --> 33:11.450]  Amazing.
[33:12.380 --> 33:16.800]  Now, I found this in an old issue of Nando Times.
[33:17.580 --> 33:19.780]  Nando Times, from September 20th, 1998.
[33:19.840 --> 33:22.450]  A little profile on the L0pht.
[33:23.020 --> 33:30.320]  One of L0pht's members, Kingpin, was just such a cad when he was younger, extending his online shenanigans to real-world breaking and entering.
[33:30.560 --> 33:32.720]  Today, L0pht keeps him out of mischief, he said.
[33:32.950 --> 33:36.690]  We're like midnight basketball for hackers, said Weld Pond, another member.
[33:37.120 --> 33:38.160]  What does that tell you?
[33:38.360 --> 33:42.380]  You know, they turn a blind eye when it's one of their own, but an outsider, oh, you're a criminal.
[33:42.600 --> 33:42.950]  Come on.
[33:42.950 --> 33:43.580]  I mean...
[33:43.580 --> 33:46.980]  That's the kind of stuff that we're supposed to be fighting, not embracing.
[33:47.300 --> 33:47.500]  Yeah.
[33:47.740 --> 33:55.950]  Well, if you've been following a lot of the media and a lot of the statements that these companies have been making, it seems to be very chick to say that we don't hire hackers.
[33:56.340 --> 33:59.480]  You know, we refuse to hire former criminals and things like that.
[33:59.560 --> 33:59.960]  Well, how about this?
[33:59.960 --> 34:01.640]  They may have fallen into that trap, corporate ones.
[34:01.740 --> 34:03.300]  We don't work for big corporations, then.
[34:03.540 --> 34:04.600]  It can go two ways.
[34:04.720 --> 34:09.740]  And I'll tell you, who's going to get screwed a lot more by hackers not working for big corporations or big corporations not hiring hackers?
[34:09.820 --> 34:13.040]  I think the corporations are going to be the ones, you know, going nuts over that.
[34:13.120 --> 34:16.950]  The truth of the matter is that large corporations do hire hackers.
[34:17.080 --> 34:17.400]  Yes.
[34:17.540 --> 34:25.280]  Even hackers with histories, with, you know, who had trouble with the law in their teenage years, happens all the time.
[34:25.400 --> 34:26.520]  Because they're talented people.
[34:26.520 --> 34:38.840]  I think the bigger problem is that AtStake was worried that not only specifically did I have a legal past, but the fact that I'm extremely high profile.
[34:39.430 --> 34:42.340]  And maybe they thought that it would generate negative publicity.
[34:42.930 --> 34:45.640]  Yeah, and this has certainly been a PR bonanza for them, hasn't it?
[34:45.660 --> 34:46.020]  Yeah, yeah.
[34:47.740 --> 34:49.000]  Well, oh boy.
[34:49.180 --> 34:51.840]  I hope it's not a trend, although it certainly seems to be.
[34:52.100 --> 35:10.240]  The trend to me seems to be that a lot of these people are going corporate or going professional and want to distance themselves from their underground past, if they even ever had one, or if it was just, you know, created for purposes of reputation.
[35:10.700 --> 35:10.780]  Right.
[35:11.320 --> 35:13.900]  But, I mean, take, for example, Black Hat.
[35:14.220 --> 35:14.540]  Mm-hmm.
[35:14.840 --> 35:19.320]  In the corporate lingo, Black Hat is supposed to be an evil hacker.
[35:20.340 --> 35:22.320]  White Hat is supposed to be a good guy.
[35:22.860 --> 35:25.520]  Uh, Gray Hat is supposed to be somewhere in the middle.
[35:25.930 --> 35:28.000]  And Black Hat is supposed to be the bad guy.
[35:28.160 --> 35:29.080]  You already said the Black Hat.
[35:29.300 --> 35:29.460]  Yeah.
[35:30.040 --> 35:30.860]  Two bad guys.
[35:31.180 --> 35:31.400]  Right.
[35:31.540 --> 35:33.220]  And who goes to Black Hat?
[35:33.720 --> 35:34.960]  The Black Hat conference?
[35:35.180 --> 35:36.660]  You mean the $1,200-buck-a-head...
[35:36.660 --> 35:38.060]  Yeah, who goes to that conference?
[35:38.180 --> 35:38.880]  Corporate people.
[35:39.020 --> 35:39.560]  Exactly, yeah.
[35:39.880 --> 35:41.900]  And they're attracted to it by the name.
[35:41.900 --> 35:42.930]  It's a marketing...
[35:42.930 --> 35:48.350]  It's a whole marketing mechanism to get these people to go, because they expect that they're going to be...
[35:48.350 --> 35:51.240]  they're going to have some interface with the underground or something.
[35:52.900 --> 35:53.600]  Yeah, I know.
[35:53.780 --> 35:55.430]  It's pretty sad.
[35:55.720 --> 36:01.930]  I mean, you know, I don't have anything against things being presented to them, but, you know, spades should be called spades, as far as I'm concerned.
[36:02.060 --> 36:16.480]  And this is something that's, you know, meant to basically generate a lot of profit, meant to bring in people, I'll pay huge corporate, you know, corporate rates for things like that, and then the runoff trickles down for, you know, a hacker thing, which is influenced by the corporate thing.
[36:16.660 --> 36:18.480]  And it's, you know, come on, we can do better than this.
[36:18.480 --> 36:20.430]  We can run the show ourselves.
[36:20.430 --> 36:22.410]  We can dictate to our own terms.
[36:22.520 --> 36:24.220]  We don't have to play the corporate game.
[36:24.700 --> 36:26.460]  It's, you know, there's no reason for it.
[36:26.560 --> 36:27.560]  Well, this is what he's already doing.
[36:27.680 --> 36:29.370]  He's got his own successful company.
[36:29.520 --> 36:29.680]  Yeah.
[36:30.020 --> 36:30.910]  There's no reason to sell out.
[36:30.960 --> 36:31.700]  Don't listen to these guys.
[36:32.040 --> 36:34.020]  Yeah, I'm not letting it get me down.
[36:34.240 --> 36:34.450]  Good.
[36:34.450 --> 36:40.020]  I mean, it was just something that upset me because of the whole attitude of it.
[36:40.310 --> 36:40.520]  Mm-hmm.
[36:40.620 --> 36:42.810]  The whole turn that it took at the end.
[36:42.810 --> 36:47.000]  And, you know, it would have been one thing if they...
[36:47.000 --> 36:49.260]  if I applied and they said, no, we're sorry.
[36:49.540 --> 36:49.700]  Right.
[36:49.720 --> 37:01.810]  They contacted me and they were basically stringing me along for a while and then in the very end had to give me this cheap excuse about why they couldn't consider hiring me.
[37:02.390 --> 37:02.640]  Mm-hmm.
[37:02.740 --> 37:04.390]  And I was just very insulted.
[37:04.810 --> 37:04.960]  Yeah.
[37:06.360 --> 37:07.890]  Phiber, you're a convicted felon, right?
[37:08.240 --> 37:08.850]  That's correct.
[37:08.980 --> 37:14.460]  That's unfortunate because we have someone coming on the show now who can't associate with convicted felons.
[37:14.520 --> 37:19.330]  Is there any possible way we can have the two of them on the same phone line as long as they don't talk to each other?
[37:19.450 --> 37:21.890]  You can actually have them not hear each other on that board.
[37:22.520 --> 37:24.020]  Well, I don't have time to figure that out.
[37:24.020 --> 37:25.260]  By playing with buses and stuff.
[37:25.450 --> 37:25.620]  Yeah.
[37:25.870 --> 37:27.540]  Well, they can hear themselves on the hold button.
[37:28.260 --> 37:29.100]  They can do that.
[37:29.330 --> 37:30.680]  Like a turn on the radio and I'd hear them.
[37:30.810 --> 37:38.370]  Yeah, well, obviously you can hear them on the radio but I'm just thinking when we take phone calls, when we take phone calls if a caller has a question for you or something like that, how about this?
[37:38.460 --> 37:43.760]  How about if you promise that you will not communicate with the person on the other line?
[37:43.910 --> 37:45.720]  I'll only talk about him in the third person.
[37:45.850 --> 37:46.000]  Right.
[37:46.200 --> 37:50.680]  So, you know, while you can hear each other it's like you're both standing in a subway car on opposite ends.
[37:50.850 --> 37:51.100]  Right.
[37:51.240 --> 37:54.870]  And all the listeners are standing between gabbing away asking questions and things like that.
[37:54.950 --> 37:55.140]  Okay.
[37:55.480 --> 37:56.040]  That'll work.
[37:56.120 --> 37:58.560]  But, you know, we've got to make sure that legal cover.
[37:58.600 --> 37:58.740]  Yeah.
[37:58.910 --> 37:59.220]  All right.
[37:59.950 --> 38:01.480]  So, what we're going to do now...
[38:01.480 --> 38:02.580]  Wait, I can't even put him on hold.
[38:02.810 --> 38:03.540]  I'm going to press that button.
[38:04.390 --> 38:04.720]  Oh, no.
[38:04.810 --> 38:05.540]  I just hung up on him.
[38:05.720 --> 38:06.640]  I thought that was the hold button.
[38:06.830 --> 38:08.600]  Well, I guess that solves your problem.
[38:08.660 --> 38:11.160]  No, it doesn't solve my problem because I'm calling right back, Phiber.
[38:11.330 --> 38:12.140]  Stay where you are.
[38:12.260 --> 38:14.390]  Obviously, you can hear me on the radio and...
[38:14.390 --> 38:15.410]  I'm calling him right back.
[38:15.410 --> 38:16.240]  I'm very sorry about that.
[38:16.520 --> 38:19.180]  Well, you have to remember when you're on the phone you want to turn the radio off.
[38:19.600 --> 38:19.890]  Yeah.
[38:20.020 --> 38:20.310]  So...
[38:20.310 --> 38:20.560]  Yeah.
[38:20.870 --> 38:21.100]  Okay.
[38:24.720 --> 38:25.600]  That was the wrong button.
[38:25.600 --> 38:26.440]  Yeah, that was the wrong button.
[38:26.520 --> 38:27.380]  I'm very sorry about that.
[38:27.580 --> 38:28.880]  I'm going to put you on hold this time.
[38:29.060 --> 38:29.340]  Okay.
[38:30.240 --> 38:30.660]  Okay, yeah.
[38:30.680 --> 38:32.260]  The hold button doesn't work unless I press that.
[38:34.240 --> 38:34.680]  There we go.
[38:34.680 --> 38:35.560]  Okay, now he's on hold.
[38:35.840 --> 38:36.380]  All right.
[38:36.980 --> 38:40.600]  So, Isaac, I believe you had something to say while I contact Kevin.
[38:41.000 --> 38:41.340]  Oh, yeah.
[38:41.440 --> 38:43.620]  Way to just kind of dump it off onto me.
[38:44.800 --> 38:54.880]  Well, you know, I tend to agree that the corporatizing of this entire hacking endeavor is most disagreeable.
[38:54.880 --> 39:15.080]  So, Black Hat is basically sold on this titillating attempt at getting these corporations in there and luring them in with the potential of having someone, you know, oh, I'll meet a real hacker and he can do something in front of me and really impress me and I'll maybe even have a chance to hire him later on.
[39:16.080 --> 39:21.120]  It's a wonderful way to extort money from people, but, you know, I would not take it too seriously.
[39:21.120 --> 39:29.920]  And unfortunately, these people start walking away and making these press releases that, you know, we don't hire hackers or more often than not, they're not even press releases.
[39:30.100 --> 39:44.980]  It's starting to turn into this HNN sort of situation where you just publish an article and mention offhandedly that, oh, yeah, we're also a security corporation and we don't hire hackers or we don't hire criminals or we don't engage in these kinds of activities,
[39:44.980 --> 39:52.260]  which they almost obviously do by their very presence at these various conventions and events.
[39:52.740 --> 39:59.360]  And I'm really trying to stretch this out and he's on the phone there and just about done and coming back to the mic now.
[39:59.940 --> 40:00.140]  Hello.
[40:00.740 --> 40:01.040]  How are you doing?
[40:01.160 --> 40:01.840]  Okay, I got him.
[40:02.120 --> 40:03.320]  He's walking outside.
[40:03.560 --> 40:03.680]  Very good.
[40:03.880 --> 40:06.760]  And he'll be joining us in just a moment.
[40:06.840 --> 40:09.820]  Now, hopefully I can hit these two buttons at the same time.
[40:10.180 --> 40:11.580]  Okay, Phiber, you're with us again, right?
[40:11.800 --> 40:11.900]  Yep.
[40:11.900 --> 40:12.680]  Okay, good.
[40:14.160 --> 40:14.860]  All right.
[40:15.260 --> 40:16.980]  Now, Kevin, are you there?
[40:17.480 --> 40:18.100]  Yeah, I'm here.
[40:18.140 --> 40:18.320]  Okay.
[40:19.340 --> 40:19.920]  All right.
[40:20.780 --> 40:25.100]  So basically, we saw you on Sunday and...
[40:25.100 --> 40:28.060]  No, that must have been somebody impersonating me.
[40:28.340 --> 40:31.160]  No, no, that really was you.
[40:31.320 --> 40:33.100]  And you're looking quite good, I must say.
[40:33.320 --> 40:35.680]  It looks like, you know, freedom is treating you well.
[40:36.140 --> 40:39.540]  The freedom that they've given you anyway seems to be treating you pretty well.
[40:39.540 --> 40:44.360]  So, now, you actually got to see the film finally.
[40:45.060 --> 40:47.460]  Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
[40:47.520 --> 40:48.900]  I thought you did an excellent job.
[40:48.900 --> 40:53.100]  And what I hope is that a lot of other people get to see the film.
[40:54.560 --> 40:58.440]  Unfortunately, it's not distributed in any sense at this time.
[40:58.440 --> 41:09.060]  I hope you do have plans in the future to get available maybe on the web or wherever through some sort of distribution so a lot more people can get the message that, you know, you're sending.
[41:09.500 --> 41:09.900]  Right.
[41:10.140 --> 41:12.060]  Kevin, you're having a little bit of transmission problems.
[41:12.060 --> 41:15.260]  You might need to raise your antenna or move closer to a transmitter somewhere.
[41:15.460 --> 41:16.960]  But we can hear most of what you're saying.
[41:17.180 --> 41:18.240]  You're just getting...
[41:21.460 --> 41:25.820]  Well, they do sound kind of cool, you know.
[41:25.980 --> 41:28.120]  If you could hear what we're hearing, I think you'd agree.
[41:28.240 --> 41:29.100]  It sounds really neat.
[41:29.560 --> 41:30.260]  But, yes.
[41:30.500 --> 41:31.260]  Yes, I hear you fine.
[41:31.820 --> 41:33.440]  But, yes, we're talking about distribution.
[41:33.880 --> 41:36.980]  And, well, it's interesting because we showed the film twice.
[41:36.980 --> 41:41.580]  We showed it Sunday and Saturday as well in two different cities.
[41:41.620 --> 41:44.000]  And the reaction was really pretty positive, I think.
[41:44.000 --> 41:48.060]  But, also, unlike at H2K, they went off really, really smoothly.
[41:48.240 --> 41:50.540]  We didn't have to wait an hour and a half to get the thing to actually work.
[41:50.680 --> 41:56.500]  And it was in a smaller room, so I was able to actually kind of not hear anything outside the room.
[41:57.480 --> 42:03.300]  And from that, I was able to actually find a few more things I just got to, you know, tweak and fix, you know, a couple of little sound issues.
[42:03.460 --> 42:07.920]  But, other than that, I think, you know, it's ready to be sent out to, you know.
[42:07.920 --> 42:11.340]  Yeah, and, no, I thought you did an excellent job.
[42:11.660 --> 42:16.220]  And, of course, I saw people that...
[42:16.780 --> 42:17.200]  Uh-oh.
[42:17.540 --> 42:19.480]  You saw people and then you sort of drifted away.
[42:22.140 --> 42:22.420]  But...
[42:22.420 --> 42:23.640]  I don't think you even heard us.
[42:24.180 --> 42:26.300]  As a whole, the way you...
[42:28.240 --> 42:29.980]  All right, Kevin, this isn't working out.
[42:30.020 --> 42:33.700]  You're going to have to either move someplace else or use a different phone or something.
[42:34.040 --> 42:34.900]  Well, I'm actually...
[42:34.900 --> 42:35.740]  Well, do you want to call me?
[42:35.880 --> 42:37.120]  There's a payphone in front of me.
[42:37.220 --> 42:38.680]  Do you want to call me back at the payphone number?
[42:38.680 --> 42:42.460]  Uh, I can do that except, uh, you'd have to give me the payphone number somehow.
[42:42.800 --> 42:43.660]  Yeah, that becomes difficult, sort of.
[42:43.700 --> 42:45.860]  Then we've got to race, you know, millions of people listening.
[42:46.240 --> 42:46.600]  Uh, if you...
[42:46.600 --> 42:47.580]  Is your antenna up there?
[42:48.200 --> 42:48.940]  All right, you're stationary.
[42:49.160 --> 42:50.200]  What service are you using?
[42:50.960 --> 42:52.060]  AT&T Wireless.
[42:52.420 --> 42:54.020]  Okay, well, they sound as bad as Sprint.
[42:54.720 --> 42:59.660]  Uh, but regardless, yes, uh, most of the credit belongs to Porkchop, though, for doing the editing.
[42:59.820 --> 43:00.620]  Which I think was...
[43:00.620 --> 43:05.720]  If you had an idea of the kind of, uh, equipment we had to work with and the kind of software we had to work with...
[43:05.720 --> 43:06.420]  Oh, it was awful.
[43:06.420 --> 43:08.200]  Well, you know, it was a challenge.
[43:08.480 --> 43:09.840]  It's not meant for feature films.
[43:09.920 --> 43:10.380]  It really isn't.
[43:10.380 --> 43:12.540]  It's meant for little, like, you know, one-minute things, I think.
[43:12.580 --> 43:14.100]  I don't know, but he made it work for a feature.
[43:14.400 --> 43:16.320]  I have a great idea, Eric.
[43:16.460 --> 43:17.500]  I mean, Emmanuel.
[43:17.920 --> 43:18.520]  You have to...
[43:19.000 --> 43:22.600]  Maybe you can get Bob or Harvey Weinstein to license a copy.
[43:23.000 --> 43:25.060]  And then you can get Miramax to distribute it.
[43:25.180 --> 43:26.100]  That would be kind of funny.
[43:26.460 --> 43:28.900]  But, you know, I don't want anybody from the MPAA even looking at this thing.
[43:28.900 --> 43:30.060]  Actually, it could be a two-pack, you know.
[43:30.160 --> 43:33.460]  Take Down and Freedom Downtime in both sides of the DVD case.
[43:33.460 --> 43:34.440]  We still don't know about...
[43:34.440 --> 43:37.400]  Actually, Kevin, maybe you would know what's up with Take Down.
[43:37.780 --> 43:38.820]  And it's going to be released.
[43:39.420 --> 43:52.640]  Well, as you know, that Jon Littman, who wrote the book The Fugitive Game, sued Disney and Miramax and, I guess, other producers that made the film for alleged copyright infringement.
[43:52.640 --> 44:00.180]  So probably until that case is settled, until they settle, or until it goes to trial, the film will probably not be released to the United States.
[44:00.180 --> 44:09.240]  But as far as I understand, it was released to Romania, Brazil, some countries in South America.
[44:10.440 --> 44:13.640]  And they changed the names and stuff like that.
[44:14.360 --> 44:15.560]  Yeah, it was released in...
[44:15.560 --> 44:17.400]  It was called Cybertrack in France.
[44:17.400 --> 44:22.000]  Yeah, it was released in the theaters there, and I heard all kinds of critiques coming from France.
[44:22.840 --> 44:24.940]  But still nothing on this country.
[44:26.200 --> 44:28.200]  Well, that's pretty good, because the film is terrible.
[44:28.400 --> 44:29.060]  Yeah, it is terrible.
[44:29.200 --> 44:29.680]  It is terrible.
[44:31.920 --> 44:32.280]  Okay.
[44:32.960 --> 44:37.380]  Well, as far as distribution and things like that, we are going to try to submit it to festivals.
[44:37.480 --> 44:40.520]  If people in New York have access to a screening room of some sort, let us know that.
[44:40.520 --> 44:45.240]  And we'd be happy to do a New York showing as well, in addition, as soon as we fix a couple of little things.
[44:45.240 --> 44:46.740]  But it's pretty much ready to go.
[44:47.460 --> 45:01.040]  What's going on with this thing with at stake in fiber optic, the position these people are taking, that if you were a hacker and you were breaking into systems, it's okay.
[45:01.320 --> 45:03.520]  We'll hire you as long as you weren't convicted.
[45:03.740 --> 45:04.760]  Isn't that something?
[45:05.020 --> 45:12.120]  It's really kind of weird how you could take a side like that, coming from a history of hackers.
[45:12.260 --> 45:12.360]  Yeah.
[45:12.680 --> 45:13.780]  You heard about the story.
[45:13.780 --> 45:22.700]  Yeah, it could be they're trying to CYA and maybe their insurance companies, they have to appease their insurance companies by not hiring people that were actually convicted of hacking.
[45:22.740 --> 45:30.060]  But I know a lot of these companies have hired people that have actually done things, but they haven't been caught doing them.
[45:30.420 --> 45:40.220]  And it's really difficult for me to understand how they can distinguish, well, you do an act that's illegal, whether you get caught for it or not really is immaterial.
[45:40.220 --> 45:51.120]  So it just doesn't make much sense to me unless, again, they're just trying to CYA because of insurance reasons or because they're really concerned that their image might be tarnished.
[45:52.240 --> 46:11.040]  But I know from a fact that a lot of people, the majority of people that I know that work in the area of computer security have dabbled in hacking because that's how they learned about the vulnerabilities and what ways they can do to prevent those vulnerabilities from materializing.
[46:11.040 --> 46:12.400]  It's a double standard.
[46:12.600 --> 46:15.420]  And it's like politicians who preach morality, you know.
[46:15.540 --> 46:17.520]  They're probably the most immoral people in the world.
[46:17.760 --> 46:26.180]  And the reason they come out so harshly against anyone who might be a little bit immoral in their eyes is because they're afraid of somebody finding out the truth about themselves.
[46:26.800 --> 46:29.160]  And, yeah, you see the same thing in many different walks of life.
[46:29.160 --> 46:31.080]  And I'm afraid that's what we're seeing here to a degree.
[46:31.140 --> 46:32.200]  And it's not just at stake.
[46:32.220 --> 46:37.100]  It's all kinds of companies that have hypocritical attitudes when it comes to things like that.
[46:37.100 --> 46:42.700]  Interesting you should mention that because earlier on in the show we had Phiber Optik on the air talking about this.
[46:43.420 --> 46:44.800]  We're going to take some phone calls.
[46:44.900 --> 46:50.140]  Now, with our special technical capabilities, we have Phiber Optik on one line and Kevin on the other.
[46:50.220 --> 46:52.900]  They cannot talk to each other because of their criminal histories.
[46:54.240 --> 46:55.420]  Well, he can't talk to me.
[46:55.420 --> 46:56.280]  I can talk to him.
[46:56.900 --> 46:57.300]  All right.
[46:57.360 --> 46:58.440]  Well, he doesn't have to listen, though.
[46:58.560 --> 46:58.960]  That's right.
[46:59.160 --> 47:00.920]  And he certainly shouldn't respond.
[47:01.120 --> 47:04.480]  Yeah, I don't want to give anybody the idea that I'm still on any kind of restrictions.
[47:04.540 --> 47:05.200]  Okay, all right.
[47:05.200 --> 47:06.780]  Yeah, you're unrestricted completely.
[47:06.780 --> 47:07.740]  You're at large.
[47:09.900 --> 47:11.000]  And there's absolutely nothing.
[47:11.420 --> 47:13.100]  So, Kevin, if you need to...
[47:13.100 --> 47:14.360]  Is that how you email him?
[47:14.540 --> 47:15.460]  Phiber at large?
[47:15.740 --> 47:15.900]  Yeah.
[47:17.140 --> 47:18.200]  Not Phiber at stake.
[47:18.300 --> 47:18.960]  That's for me for sure.
[47:19.900 --> 47:21.420]  So, anyway, okay.
[47:21.580 --> 47:26.100]  So, Kevin, if you need to say something, just you're addressing it to me and to the listeners.
[47:26.400 --> 47:28.180]  But you may not address Phiber Optik.
[47:28.320 --> 47:28.700]  Okay.
[47:28.780 --> 47:32.100]  I can only probably stay on in just a couple of minutes because I'm actually meeting with somebody.
[47:32.100 --> 47:32.440]  Okay.
[47:32.680 --> 47:34.580]  And I don't want to be rude, so...
[47:34.580 --> 47:36.340]  Okay, so let us know when you want to.
[47:36.340 --> 47:38.060]  Do you want to go now or do you want to stay on for a couple of minutes?
[47:38.180 --> 47:39.460]  Maybe just a one or two calls.
[47:39.460 --> 47:39.740]  Okay.
[47:40.100 --> 47:40.880]  If they're not lengthy.
[47:41.760 --> 47:42.960]  212-209-2900.
[47:43.180 --> 47:44.480]  Remember, folks, do not make the call lengthy.
[47:44.520 --> 47:46.440]  No speeches, no songs, nothing like that.
[47:47.240 --> 47:48.460]  Okay, let's go over here.
[47:48.620 --> 47:48.960]  Good evening.
[47:49.020 --> 47:49.520]  You're on the air.
[47:50.820 --> 47:51.520]  Speak up, please.
[47:52.060 --> 47:52.300]  Hello.
[47:52.560 --> 47:53.060]  Yes, go ahead.
[47:53.960 --> 47:54.780]  Is Emmanuel there?
[47:55.060 --> 47:55.840]  Yeah, you're on the air.
[47:55.920 --> 47:56.160]  Go ahead.
[47:57.340 --> 47:57.820]  No, no.
[47:57.820 --> 47:58.860]  Okay, you're right.
[47:59.700 --> 48:00.520]  Let's go over here.
[48:00.900 --> 48:01.440]  Good evening.
[48:01.560 --> 48:02.020]  You're on the air.
[48:02.520 --> 48:03.000]  Hey, Emmanuel.
[48:03.180 --> 48:03.880]  It's Tommy Pickles.
[48:04.080 --> 48:04.480]  Hey, how you doing?
[48:04.520 --> 48:04.740]  What's up?
[48:04.780 --> 48:08.360]  Hey, Emmanuel and Isaac and, you know, Kevin out there.
[48:08.440 --> 48:09.120]  Yeah, Kevin out there.
[48:09.220 --> 48:13.160]  You know, good that he's out there on the cell phones instead of the prison phones.
[48:14.320 --> 48:19.440]  Wanted to thank you for mentioning the smaller cons, of course, because those are going to make it good.
[48:19.600 --> 48:20.960]  Do you know of any smaller cons coming up?
[48:21.180 --> 48:21.500]  Freaknik.
[48:21.840 --> 48:22.640]  Okay, tell us about that.
[48:22.720 --> 48:23.240]  Where is that?
[48:23.240 --> 48:27.340]  Isaac is going to head down with us, you know, the Moloch event down there.
[48:28.740 --> 48:29.420]  Where's down there?
[48:29.500 --> 48:30.200]  Tell us when and where.
[48:30.500 --> 48:30.860]  Nashville.
[48:31.120 --> 48:31.460]  Nashville.
[48:31.540 --> 48:35.200]  Nashville, Tennessee, where we'll all bring our banjos down on November 3rd.
[48:35.580 --> 48:35.940]  Okay.
[48:36.380 --> 48:37.300]  And then we'll head down there.
[48:37.360 --> 48:42.520]  We were thinking about renting a bus, but that's still up in the air right now because tickets for the planes are kind of high right now.
[48:42.660 --> 48:44.980]  Hey, you know, I got to say, I did the Priceline thing.
[48:44.980 --> 48:46.460]  It went smooth as silk.
[48:46.780 --> 48:49.040]  I paid $300 to get to L.A.
[48:49.060 --> 48:52.100]  and back, all right, and they wanted $2,100 from the airline.
[48:52.100 --> 48:53.600]  That's with a week in advance.
[48:53.900 --> 48:57.960]  And I took United Airlines, which I thought might be a problem with all the pilots, like, calling in sick and stuff.
[48:58.060 --> 48:58.980]  But, no, it was great.
[48:59.160 --> 49:00.080]  It was a lot better than Delta.
[49:00.420 --> 49:07.100]  The lowest I could find through the lowestfair.com is going for, like, $217, and that's a connecting flight, so...
[49:07.100 --> 49:07.340]  Uh-huh.
[49:07.460 --> 49:11.700]  Well, yeah, you do have to take connecting flights and propeller planes and things like that, but, you know...
[49:11.700 --> 49:12.180]  There's nothing wrong with that.
[49:12.220 --> 49:12.800]  Yeah, nothing wrong with that.
[49:12.940 --> 49:14.860]  Yeah, but we'll definitely do the Freaknik thing.
[49:15.100 --> 49:21.800]  Also, Johnny X, the promoter of that event, is hoping that he can show the freedom downtime down there.
[49:21.800 --> 49:22.620]  Okay, well...
[49:22.620 --> 49:24.560]  Which would be great, because then we could spread the word.
[49:24.720 --> 49:27.100]  Have him contact us, and we'll definitely work something out.
[49:27.240 --> 49:43.060]  And then on a third note, just to make it really short here, there was just a post to Slashdot concerning the MPAA filing a motion to try to get the newer TVs and newer VCRs to limit recording time off of the TV.
[49:43.400 --> 49:44.180]  What did I tell you?
[49:44.620 --> 49:46.260]  So, it's really coming down hard.
[49:46.420 --> 49:47.600]  You know, when it rains, it pours.
[49:47.640 --> 49:47.820]  Yep.
[49:48.040 --> 49:48.840]  So, watch out.
[49:48.940 --> 49:53.740]  They said the more expensive HD TVs will probably have this as soon as they come out.
[49:53.840 --> 49:55.900]  The true motives become revealed.
[49:56.220 --> 49:56.360]  Yep.
[49:56.360 --> 49:57.320]  Okay, thanks for the information.
[49:57.400 --> 49:57.920]  All right, see you.
[49:57.920 --> 50:06.300]  And as you know, we also mentioned that a lot of other letters are going out to people that have links.
[50:06.440 --> 50:06.980]  That's right.
[50:06.980 --> 50:10.880]  Just links to the DCSS source code.
[50:10.920 --> 50:11.980]  You don't have to have it on your site anymore.
[50:11.980 --> 50:14.780]  If you have a link to a site, you'll get a letter from the MPAA now.
[50:14.900 --> 50:17.980]  And they will point to our case as reason for them to do that.
[50:17.980 --> 50:19.740]  The judge saying that we had to take down the links.
[50:20.180 --> 50:21.240]  They will point to that.
[50:21.560 --> 50:23.640]  So, yeah, it's becoming expanded.
[50:24.980 --> 50:25.740]  Who did we lose?
[50:25.880 --> 50:26.760]  We lost somebody.
[50:26.760 --> 50:27.740]  I'm still here.
[50:28.500 --> 50:29.200]  Kevin, are you there?
[50:30.060 --> 50:30.920]  Okay, we lost Kevin.
[50:31.020 --> 50:31.560]  That's the end of that.
[50:31.800 --> 50:32.860]  All right, well, you have to go anyway.
[50:33.200 --> 50:33.700]  Hang on.
[50:34.420 --> 50:36.140]  Let me figure out the best way to take care of this.
[50:36.300 --> 50:38.140]  I guess if I put them both on...
[50:38.140 --> 50:38.340]  Okay.
[50:39.020 --> 50:39.340]  You're...
[50:39.340 --> 50:40.440]  Phiber, you're still there?
[50:40.580 --> 50:41.000]  I'm still here.
[50:41.020 --> 50:41.420]  Okay, good.
[50:41.520 --> 50:42.000]  That worked out.
[50:42.520 --> 50:43.780]  All right, let's take another phone call then.
[50:44.020 --> 50:45.740]  212-209-2900.
[50:45.860 --> 50:46.120]  Good evening.
[50:46.200 --> 50:46.620]  You're on the air.
[50:48.100 --> 50:48.740]  Go ahead, please.
[50:49.720 --> 50:50.340]  Hey, Manuel.
[50:50.540 --> 50:50.840]  Go ahead.
[50:51.100 --> 50:51.740]  I'm Ars Medman.
[50:53.120 --> 50:59.560]  Recently, listening to one of the New York radio stations, I heard an ad for an ISP mentioning H2K.
[51:00.460 --> 51:00.940]  Really?
[51:01.020 --> 51:01.920]  Do you guys know anything about it?
[51:01.920 --> 51:02.820]  No, I'd like to know.
[51:03.300 --> 51:10.080]  I only caught the last, you know, 10 seconds of the commercial where they mentioned their company name and H2K briefly.
[51:10.080 --> 51:14.560]  Well, the only company that has the right to do that is NAC.net because they donated the bandwidth for H2K.
[51:14.780 --> 51:15.420]  So hopefully it's them.
[51:15.820 --> 51:16.680]  No, it wasn't them.
[51:16.800 --> 51:16.960]  Oh.
[51:17.300 --> 51:24.440]  Well, they certainly should be the ones getting credit, not anyone else if someone's trying to get credit for H2K.
[51:24.700 --> 51:25.080]  Yeah.
[51:25.200 --> 51:28.620]  Unless they're using H2K in a totally different context, which I can't imagine what it would be.
[51:28.620 --> 51:31.060]  They had your URL to your site up there.
[51:31.140 --> 51:31.540]  Oh, really?
[51:32.100 --> 51:32.320]  Yeah.
[51:32.660 --> 51:34.020]  Please, find out who this is.
[51:34.140 --> 51:34.560]  I'd like to know.
[51:34.600 --> 51:34.660]  That's interesting.
[51:34.760 --> 51:35.200]  Yeah, I'd like to know.
[51:35.220 --> 51:35.340]  All right.
[51:35.460 --> 51:36.120]  All right, thanks.
[51:36.260 --> 51:38.480]  I went to another H2K event earlier in the summer.
[51:39.300 --> 51:40.200]  Another H2K event?
[51:40.220 --> 51:40.940]  Before your H2K event.
[51:40.940 --> 51:41.940]  What, you mean at the bar downtown?
[51:42.260 --> 51:42.760]  No, no, no, no.
[51:42.940 --> 51:44.900]  At Harness Racing 2000 at the Meadowlands.
[51:45.800 --> 51:48.500]  They had a whole promotional thing for H2K.
[51:48.660 --> 51:49.260]  You know what you are?
[51:49.400 --> 51:49.840]  What am I?
[51:51.180 --> 51:51.640]  Never mind.
[51:51.760 --> 51:52.400]  I can't say it on the air.
[51:52.480 --> 51:52.740]  Keep going.
[51:54.060 --> 51:54.380]  Unbelievable.
[51:54.640 --> 51:55.260]  Let's go over here.
[51:55.500 --> 51:56.040]  Good evening.
[51:59.180 --> 51:59.620]  Hi.
[51:59.960 --> 52:03.240]  Sorry, I'm listening over the net in Boston, so there's a long delay.
[52:05.100 --> 52:16.240]  I'm not a lawyer, but it occurs to me that there may be concern that if more than, say, one felon is at a company at a time, it might start the possibility of RICO proceedings.
[52:16.600 --> 52:17.940]  So who is the other felon?
[52:18.320 --> 52:20.080]  I'm just saying that there may be...
[52:20.080 --> 52:20.820]  Well, yeah.
[52:20.960 --> 52:28.940]  There may be the concern that when there are a few people with records in one place at the same time, it would make a RICO case a lot easier to prove.
[52:29.120 --> 52:34.700]  You see, now, okay, you may be right about that, but that's the reason why you don't agree to be taken over by a big company.
[52:34.800 --> 52:44.360]  When this first happened, in fact, you can still find the FAQ somewhere on the L0pht website, you see all the wonderful things that will occur as a result of this, and you see all the ways it will not affect them.
[52:44.460 --> 52:50.320]  It will not affect the way they act, what they do, how they hang out, you know, and it's...
[52:50.320 --> 52:57.080]  People who are the targets of a well-financed takeover usually have a good reason to want to believe that's true.
[52:57.200 --> 53:00.980]  They want to believe that they're good guys and can get rich at the same time.
[53:01.720 --> 53:06.620]  And, you know, just all systems using human beings and them have certain weak points.
[53:06.940 --> 53:10.260]  You know, code isn't the only thing that can be hacked.
[53:10.820 --> 53:11.420]  That's true.
[53:11.580 --> 53:11.940]  Good point.
[53:12.360 --> 53:12.800]  All right.
[53:13.020 --> 53:13.520]  Thanks for the call.
[53:14.760 --> 53:16.720]  Unfortunately, that does seem to be the case.
[53:16.900 --> 53:23.560]  I remember when that thing came out, it was like, okay, well, we'll give this a try, you know, we won't, you know, won't affect who they are and everybody will benefit.
[53:23.900 --> 53:24.540]  I won't say...
[53:24.540 --> 53:29.200]  First thing that happened for H2K, well, we can't appear as a group anymore.
[53:29.400 --> 53:30.740]  You know, we can't appear as the loft.
[53:31.080 --> 53:32.140]  We have to appear as individuals.
[53:32.380 --> 53:33.760]  I mean, you know, come on, it's insidious.
[53:33.920 --> 53:35.680]  It affects you in various ways.
[53:35.960 --> 53:38.240]  Does it mean that computer security is a racket?
[53:38.960 --> 53:40.560]  It can be charged under RICO?
[53:41.080 --> 53:42.580]  Yeah, that's a good idea.
[53:42.800 --> 53:47.700]  Well, if you get three people in a room and you all agree to something, you can be charged for RICO, but...
[53:47.700 --> 53:48.560]  That's conspiracy.
[53:48.560 --> 53:48.820]  Conspiracy.
[53:49.120 --> 53:49.880]  I'm sorry, conspiracy.
[53:49.880 --> 53:50.400]  I don't agree.
[53:50.580 --> 53:51.400]  Self-preservation.
[53:51.540 --> 53:52.560]  Oh, I see how that works.
[53:52.980 --> 53:53.900]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[53:54.300 --> 53:54.660]  Good evening.
[53:54.740 --> 53:55.180]  You're on the air.
[53:56.100 --> 53:57.420]  Hi, this is Bertha.
[53:57.800 --> 53:58.180]  How you doing?
[53:59.060 --> 54:08.820]  I feel so honored and privileged to be in a voice shot of such exalted human beings.
[54:09.100 --> 54:10.040]  What's your question?
[54:10.120 --> 54:10.540]  You have a question?
[54:10.760 --> 54:11.260]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[54:11.260 --> 54:38.200]  When are you guys going to put together, knock your heads together, and put together a compendium for newbies and dullers like myself of the history of hacking, like a Britannic encyclopedia or a who's who, with lots of fun anecdotes and photographs and pretty pictures and how-tos and histories of the various texts that,
[54:38.520 --> 55:00.980]  and, you know, kind of like, you know, there was like a public television show way, way back, and it was this guy, and he talked about inventions and how just weird interlocking of happenstances from the knitting machine to, or the loom or something, to the computer,
[55:01.260 --> 55:09.840]  and all the personalities involved in that, and he would go on, and sometimes he'd cover the water mill, sometimes he would cover...
[55:09.840 --> 55:16.240]  He did a lot of interesting things, but, well, many of these bits of literature that you're looking for already exist, and I've got a fun game.
[55:16.440 --> 55:18.660]  Why don't the three of us all suggest one?
[55:18.820 --> 55:19.380]  I'll start.
[55:19.660 --> 55:20.600]  Stephen Levy's Hackers.
[55:22.000 --> 55:23.860]  Well, you kind of threw me for a loop right now.
[55:24.000 --> 55:24.640]  Fiver, you're next.
[55:24.880 --> 55:25.600]  Oh, sure.
[55:25.700 --> 55:26.420]  Put it all on me.
[55:26.800 --> 55:32.520]  Well, I just want to say that that history, any history, is only as good as the people you pay to write it.
[55:32.600 --> 55:32.780]  Yes.
[55:33.200 --> 55:45.520]  And there's tons of history, hacker history, on the web of varying degrees of accuracy, depending on the person who's actually penning it, and I think you should keep that in mind.
[55:45.520 --> 55:56.580]  The best way to learn is just to become part of, to talk to the people, to go to the events, to read the literature, see the films, whatever it is that has to do with it.
[55:56.620 --> 55:58.180]  Now, most of it's going to be crap, obviously.
[55:58.340 --> 55:58.440]  Yeah.
[55:58.860 --> 56:03.120]  It's like, you know, you turn on your TV set, and most of it is absolute garbage, 99.9%.
[56:03.120 --> 56:06.340]  But that 0.1% that's good, you have to find.
[56:06.460 --> 56:07.180]  You have to track it down.
[56:07.220 --> 56:08.400]  And when you find it, it's worth it.
[56:08.720 --> 56:11.360]  You know, same thing for anything, and same thing for the...
[56:11.360 --> 56:16.460]  Now, history is a tricky thing, because people are right, all kinds of, you know, competing histories.
[56:16.500 --> 56:17.840]  It's a very perspective-oriented.
[56:17.840 --> 56:19.720]  And how are you going to know what's right and what's wrong?
[56:19.940 --> 56:25.840]  You know, you pretty much have to judge for yourself what makes sense and what doesn't, and you have to look for the falsehoods.
[56:25.900 --> 56:30.000]  As you do with history itself, the history you're taught in school, it's the same thing.
[56:30.000 --> 56:36.040]  You know, certain things are not stressed, certain things are stressed way too much, and what you get is not necessarily what happened.
[56:36.860 --> 56:37.280]  All right.
[56:37.340 --> 56:38.420]  Well, bits and pieces of what happened.
[56:38.620 --> 56:39.760]  Well, show up at one of the meetings.
[56:39.960 --> 56:44.600]  You'll hear plenty of stories, just like tug on someone's sleeve and say, you know, tell me a story.
[56:44.780 --> 56:47.200]  Yeah, but even if that person tells you the story, that might not be the real story.
[56:47.280 --> 56:51.520]  All history is guilty of revisionism, and hacker history is no exception.
[56:52.220 --> 56:52.680]  That's right.
[56:53.240 --> 56:53.520]  Okay.
[56:53.760 --> 56:54.920]  212-209-2900.
[56:55.060 --> 56:58.240]  Squeeze in one more call, one or two more.
[56:58.320 --> 56:58.540]  Good evening.
[56:58.620 --> 56:58.980]  You're on the air.
[57:00.240 --> 57:02.820]  Yes, isn't anonymous call rejection annoying?
[57:03.300 --> 57:03.460]  Yes.
[57:03.460 --> 57:04.580]  Yes, totally, totally.
[57:04.720 --> 57:05.120]  Thanks for calling.
[57:05.220 --> 57:05.480]  Good evening.
[57:05.560 --> 57:06.000]  You're on the air.
[57:07.980 --> 57:08.300]  Hello?
[57:08.600 --> 57:09.060]  Yes, go ahead.
[57:10.140 --> 57:10.720]  Speak up, please.
[57:10.800 --> 57:11.340]  Yes, hi.
[57:11.420 --> 57:15.720]  I was wondering about the new 900-megards, because 900-megards f*cking owned.
[57:16.220 --> 57:16.860]  Oh, that's great.
[57:17.000 --> 57:17.280]  Good evening.
[57:17.300 --> 57:17.720]  You're on the air.
[57:19.200 --> 57:19.780]  Speak up.
[57:20.640 --> 57:20.960]  Okay.
[57:21.140 --> 57:21.500]  Good evening.
[57:21.640 --> 57:22.100]  You're on the air.
[57:23.200 --> 57:23.860]  Yes, what am I?
[57:24.100 --> 57:24.680]  Oh, boy.
[57:24.800 --> 57:26.080]  What's going on with the...
[57:26.480 --> 57:27.780]  That's identified call rejection.
[57:28.000 --> 57:28.540]  Good evening.
[57:28.660 --> 57:29.340]  You're on the air.
[57:29.700 --> 57:32.640]  Hi, if they read a hacker book, they should put Mr. Ohm in it.
[57:32.800 --> 57:34.920]  How come this... is this Mr. Ohm?
[57:35.020 --> 57:35.260]  Yes.
[57:35.680 --> 57:37.040]  You always call at the end of the show.
[57:37.100 --> 57:38.580]  How do you manage to always call at the end of the show?
[57:38.680 --> 57:45.300]  I can see calling at the beginning of the show, because people, like, you know, take up 25 lines with their multi-line phone and take every line up.
[57:45.580 --> 57:52.540]  I have a little counter on my computer that calculates exactly when to call, so I get in at the end of the show.
[57:52.800 --> 57:53.740]  He's figured it all out.
[57:53.740 --> 57:54.200]  I see.
[57:54.480 --> 57:55.080]  How about that?
[57:55.980 --> 57:59.260]  Well, now, okay, maybe you're a good person to ask how to find out about the history of hacking.
[57:59.340 --> 57:59.900]  Ah, yes.
[58:00.520 --> 58:10.160]  I found out about the history of hacking through a slightly flawed but good book called The Hacker Crackdown by Bruce Sterling.
[58:10.500 --> 58:14.560]  And also, there's wonderful things on the Internet to find out about the history of hacking.
[58:15.340 --> 58:21.480]  And also, people have funny little anecdotes, which are fun to listen to, too, which may or may not be true, but it really doesn't matter.
[58:21.820 --> 58:22.840]  Yeah, that's true.
[58:22.900 --> 58:25.900]  It doesn't really matter because it tells you something about the person, the mentality it attracts.
[58:25.900 --> 58:33.060]  You know, a lot of the history of hacking has to do with the people who are trying to find out the history of hacking because they're kind of, you know, funny to watch as well.
[58:33.900 --> 58:35.400]  Quite amusing in certain cases.
[58:35.480 --> 58:38.760]  Watch journalists, so-called journalists and writers and screenplay people.
[58:39.140 --> 58:43.100]  You know, they're all part of the scene in another kind of peripheral way.
[58:43.940 --> 58:46.680]  And it's just, it's kind of surreal watching it all.
[58:47.020 --> 58:47.840]  Hey, we're out of time.
[58:48.140 --> 58:48.640]  Okie dokie.
[58:48.720 --> 58:49.200]  Thanks for the call.
[58:49.400 --> 58:51.740]  You can always read the actual resources like Phrack.
[58:51.980 --> 58:54.080]  I mean, go to phrack.com.
[58:54.160 --> 58:55.500]  Go way back to issue number one.
[58:55.680 --> 58:55.740]  Yeah.
[58:55.760 --> 58:56.700]  And you can see where a lot of this came from.
[58:56.820 --> 59:03.120]  Yeah, the further back you go, the more it's like, you know, interactive, like, you know, Craig and Randy putting out a magazine every couple of weeks.
[59:03.300 --> 59:04.520]  And it's just, there's a real spirit there.
[59:04.860 --> 59:05.980]  Now, what I don't understand...
[59:05.980 --> 59:06.260]  2600?
[59:06.600 --> 59:06.860]  Yeah.
[59:07.040 --> 59:08.340]  Hey, imagine that one.
[59:08.440 --> 59:09.940]  Back in the old days.
[59:10.040 --> 59:12.140]  But what I don't understand is why aren't there more people doing this?
[59:12.140 --> 59:12.820]  What, you know?
[59:13.240 --> 59:13.600]  Chronicling?
[59:13.680 --> 59:17.840]  Putting out e-zines, putting out regular zines, you know, just doing things.
[59:17.880 --> 59:20.440]  That's what we need, people to just do as much as possible.
[59:21.080 --> 59:23.480]  I'd like to rant about it more, but we're out of time completely.
[59:23.720 --> 59:28.520]  So, Phiber, thanks for joining us and good luck with the, you know...
[59:28.520 --> 59:30.020]  Well, I guess it's not really much of a fight.
[59:30.180 --> 59:32.460]  It's just that, you know, you got the word out.
[59:32.560 --> 59:33.360]  I think that's the important thing.
[59:33.480 --> 59:33.760]  Yeah.
[59:33.860 --> 59:35.900]  When something happens, you tell people about it.
[59:36.200 --> 59:37.580]  That's part of the hacker culture.
[59:38.960 --> 59:40.260]  So, best of luck with that.
[59:40.260 --> 59:42.700]  But, Isaac, thanks for, you know...
[59:42.700 --> 59:43.020]  Rambling?
[59:43.280 --> 59:43.360]  Yeah.
[59:43.520 --> 59:43.660]  Okay.
[59:44.080 --> 59:47.640]  And, as Emmanuel, I'll be back again next week with more fun and games.
[59:47.780 --> 59:47.980]  Take care.
[59:48.040 --> 59:48.140]  Bye.
[59:51.780 --> 59:52.180]  Bye.
[01:01:06.820 --> 01:01:08.460]  This is Al Lewis.
[01:01:08.580 --> 01:01:09.440]  And Karen Lewis.
[01:01:09.560 --> 01:01:20.220]  Inviting you to join us and thousands of New Yorkers at Riverside Church this Friday, September 8th, to welcome the Cuban delegation that are here at the United Nations Millennium Summit.
[01:01:20.220 --> 01:01:28.980]  Americans have traditionally been kind and gracious when welcoming people from other cultures to our shores, as Our Lady of the Harbor proclaims.
[01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:46.880]  So, please, join us this Friday as Malcolm X would, as John Henry Clark would, starting at 5 o'clock, in a welcoming display of courtesy and respect along the parade route, on Broadway, stretching from 110th to 120th Street, for an historic Millennium Gathering at Riverside Church.
[01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:52.600]  If you can't get in because of the high security required for such an event to take place, don't worry.
[01:01:52.820 --> 01:01:55.500]  The program will be broadcast outside the church.
[01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.060]  Don't let Rudolph Giuliani speak for you.
[01:01:58.320 --> 01:02:03.860]  Let our guests know how much we honor and desire their full participation at this summit.
[01:02:04.100 --> 01:02:09.040]  This public service announcement is brought to you on behalf of Friends of Cuba.