[00:04.500 --> 00:07.360]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York.
[00:07.640 --> 00:11.040]  The time is just about, oh, 8 o'clock.
[00:11.080 --> 00:15.160]  Actually, it's 7.59 in 30 seconds, but we're going to get a little bit of an early start today.
[00:15.580 --> 00:16.540]  So off the hook.
[00:23.680 --> 00:28.000]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:29.120 --> 00:33.600]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:33.600 --> 00:34.600]  They
[00:38.680 --> 00:41.960]  would, but the best, expect the worst.
[00:42.560 --> 00:45.540]  I hope that's understood, but I'm going to get it more.
[01:56.450 --> 01:58.270]  We'll be right back.
[03:08.250 --> 03:12.690]  The future looks bright for a change.
[03:12.910 --> 03:13.930]  Well, I don't mean how it looks.
[03:14.030 --> 03:14.650]  I mean how it sounds.
[03:14.770 --> 03:15.830]  This is the sound of the future.
[03:15.830 --> 03:16.990]  Oh, this is the sound of the future?
[03:17.190 --> 03:17.350]  Yeah.
[03:18.450 --> 03:19.790]  You have Kevorkian's number?
[03:21.090 --> 03:22.330]  He's in jail.
[03:25.370 --> 03:26.610]  But I can be a proxy of human.
[03:26.610 --> 03:27.310]  He's a cellmate, doesn't he?
[03:32.550 --> 03:33.330]  No, I'm not.
[03:34.210 --> 03:35.150]  No, I'm not.
[03:36.190 --> 03:37.790]  You entirely missed the joke.
[03:40.750 --> 03:42.250]  Oh, we get the joke, all right, Isaac.
[03:42.310 --> 03:42.890]  We get the joke.
[03:49.670 --> 03:51.810]  Well, the fun just never stops.
[03:52.170 --> 03:53.990]  The fun just is always with us.
[03:54.450 --> 03:55.590]  Life is never dull.
[03:55.810 --> 03:56.570]  It's always exciting.
[03:56.730 --> 03:58.030]  There's always something new going on.
[03:58.770 --> 04:00.230]  Yeah, you live in interesting times.
[04:00.590 --> 04:01.650]  Yeah, same to you.
[04:02.830 --> 04:04.130]  And that's what we are doing.
[04:04.310 --> 04:05.870]  We're living in interesting times, all right.
[04:05.870 --> 04:09.810]  But I'm not even talking about election stuff anymore.
[04:09.950 --> 04:10.250]  Excellent.
[04:10.510 --> 04:10.790]  That's boring.
[04:10.890 --> 04:16.990]  That's why I'm here, to broker a peace accord between you two, because last week, you did not even talk about...
[04:16.990 --> 04:18.650]  Well, you sort of talked about technology.
[04:18.870 --> 04:19.790]  Well, I tried to talk about technology.
[04:19.790 --> 04:21.290]  But I've got a mandate from the people.
[04:21.450 --> 04:22.750]  I tried to talk about technology.
[04:22.750 --> 04:23.010]  I sure did.
[04:23.010 --> 04:27.890]  I have a mandate from the people and Bernie S, who even complained that this is turning into politics.
[04:27.990 --> 04:28.330]  Bernie S.
[04:28.330 --> 04:29.470]  You know who Bernie S voted for?
[04:30.390 --> 04:31.830]  I can't even pronounce the name.
[04:32.890 --> 04:35.270]  And we don't have to know who Bernie S voted for.
[04:35.290 --> 04:35.870]  It's unbelievable.
[04:35.870 --> 04:36.610]  You'd be shocked.
[04:36.910 --> 04:38.650]  I don't tell you after the show.
[04:38.770 --> 04:39.590]  You won't believe it.
[04:41.450 --> 04:41.850]  Unbelievable.
[04:42.450 --> 04:43.470]  I thought he voted for Nader.
[04:44.390 --> 04:44.790]  Hush.
[04:45.850 --> 04:47.590]  We'll talk about who people voted for in the air.
[04:48.390 --> 04:49.350]  Oh, is that bad?
[04:49.570 --> 04:50.450]  Did he write something in it?
[04:50.510 --> 04:53.170]  It's a violation of some kind of rule.
[04:53.470 --> 04:53.770]  Oh, okay.
[04:55.550 --> 04:59.730]  Yeah, we've gotten all kinds of letters, pro and con, about the thing.
[04:59.810 --> 05:00.590]  But, you know, I don't really care.
[05:00.650 --> 05:02.190]  Flip a damn coin already, get the thing over with.
[05:02.230 --> 05:03.350]  I'm not even interested anymore.
[05:03.630 --> 05:04.630]  It's old news.
[05:05.490 --> 05:10.470]  I'm mostly interested in what people are going to do in the future and how they're going to deal with this.
[05:11.090 --> 05:14.850]  What kinds of technology will be introduced in the future.
[05:14.870 --> 05:16.150]  I hear something about California.
[05:16.150 --> 05:19.910]  California introducing... I heard this yesterday on the news.
[05:20.210 --> 05:21.410]  I was actually listening to KPFA.
[05:21.590 --> 05:23.210]  I'll get into that in a little bit.
[05:23.310 --> 05:26.090]  But I was listening to KPFA news on the net.
[05:26.370 --> 05:31.650]  And they were talking about how somebody was considering in California introducing online voting.
[05:31.790 --> 05:32.590]  Isn't that nice?
[05:32.810 --> 05:33.170]  No!
[05:34.470 --> 05:34.870]  No!
[05:35.410 --> 05:36.530]  Yeah, I was doing that.
[05:36.610 --> 05:40.090]  I was doing the slow motion screaming in the fog and nobody was listening to me.
[05:40.370 --> 05:41.730]  Why are you against online voting?
[05:41.930 --> 05:42.270]  Because.
[05:42.790 --> 05:43.930]  Online is the problem.
[05:43.930 --> 05:44.910]  Here's the thing.
[05:45.190 --> 05:46.110]  You have online voting.
[05:46.310 --> 05:51.830]  What's going to happen is someone's going to get in, figure out how to get past all the security systems.
[05:51.890 --> 05:53.150]  It'll all be blamed on hackers.
[05:53.290 --> 05:56.150]  We'll be the ones that will destroy democracy.
[05:56.370 --> 05:59.950]  Just like, you know, Nader's being blamed for destroying democracy this time.
[06:01.110 --> 06:02.630]  Except it'll be nothing like that.
[06:02.810 --> 06:03.650]  Nothing like that at all.
[06:03.810 --> 06:07.710]  It'll be, you know, someone will figure out that the passwords are all the same or something.
[06:07.710 --> 06:10.230]  And you can sniff all the traffic and find out who everybody voted for.
[06:10.430 --> 06:11.150]  It's absurd.
[06:11.450 --> 06:13.310]  You don't want to do something that way.
[06:13.490 --> 06:13.970]  Absolutely not.
[06:14.050 --> 06:14.650]  You need security.
[06:14.810 --> 06:15.570]  You need anonymity.
[06:16.610 --> 06:21.310]  And as Isaac has said, you know, I've checked to make sure I'm not crazy for agreeing with him.
[06:21.430 --> 06:26.650]  But as you said, voting in your home is not a good idea because you can be influenced in all sorts of different ways.
[06:26.750 --> 06:28.650]  I can do everything in my home.
[06:28.650 --> 06:33.950]  I can vote for the members of Dell computer if I'm a shareholder.
[06:33.950 --> 06:35.330]  I can do all that online.
[06:35.670 --> 06:40.290]  Yeah, but you see, voting for the president or voting for elected officials, you're not supposed to be influenced by anybody.
[06:40.410 --> 06:42.570]  You're supposed to go into that poll, and that poll is your domain.
[06:43.470 --> 06:46.410]  You know, and I think the law is however long you want to be in there for.
[06:46.590 --> 06:48.490]  I don't know how much you can stretch that to.
[06:48.530 --> 06:53.830]  I know there's lots of allegations of people being rushed out, but I think you're allowed to stay in there for, you know, as long as you need to.
[06:54.050 --> 06:55.210]  Until the polling place closes.
[06:55.390 --> 06:56.010]  Well, okay, yeah.
[06:56.010 --> 07:00.590]  Yeah, but the thing is, you know, if you vote in your home, there's all kinds of things that could influence you.
[07:00.770 --> 07:03.990]  You know, a little Bobby who's five years old can vote 20 times for all the people in the family.
[07:04.670 --> 07:05.610]  You just don't know.
[07:05.910 --> 07:09.170]  Well, there's a lot of people that don't understand computers, hence AOL.
[07:09.430 --> 07:12.870]  So they might have their teenager come help them vote.
[07:13.290 --> 07:13.570]  Yeah.
[07:13.610 --> 07:14.170]  Here you go.
[07:14.630 --> 07:16.670]  You know, I think it would be fun to have two elections.
[07:16.890 --> 07:17.370]  Landslide victory for Nader.
[07:17.450 --> 07:18.190]  No, you have two elections.
[07:18.330 --> 07:19.910]  One, like, you know, an online election.
[07:20.070 --> 07:20.970]  That doesn't count.
[07:26.010 --> 07:26.310]  Not at all.
[07:26.890 --> 07:27.510]  No way.
[07:27.730 --> 07:32.770]  Yeah, but the online voting thing is about the stupidest thing you could possibly think of next to punch cards.
[07:32.970 --> 07:34.810]  Furthermore, a lot of people don't have computers.
[07:35.290 --> 07:35.790]  That's true.
[07:35.790 --> 07:37.210]  Well, that's a shock to the people in this room.
[07:37.210 --> 07:39.770]  But they're not really people, now are they, if they don't have computers?
[07:40.190 --> 07:41.070]  They don't count.
[07:41.150 --> 07:41.810]  Yeah, they don't count.
[07:41.810 --> 07:42.930]  Well, if you want to make that argument.
[07:42.970 --> 07:45.150]  They are not a full-fledged consumer.
[07:45.330 --> 07:46.250]  Republicans don't count.
[07:46.930 --> 07:47.350]  The Republicans don't count.
[07:47.350 --> 07:48.050]  That's my joke.
[07:48.910 --> 07:50.250]  You'll get it towards the end of the hour.
[07:52.390 --> 07:52.710]  What?
[07:52.870 --> 07:53.610]  Are we on time delay?
[07:53.610 --> 07:54.510]  They don't read, either.
[07:55.890 --> 07:56.210]  No.
[07:57.190 --> 07:58.590]  I'm kind of slow, forgive you.
[07:58.690 --> 07:59.250]  Yeah, I know, I know.
[08:00.710 --> 08:05.490]  All right, so that's the extent of our conversation on that, as far as I know, anyway.
[08:05.610 --> 08:08.050]  Unless a caller wants to bring it up, we'll be taking a bunch of phone calls.
[08:08.130 --> 08:26.370]  We have actually, I don't know if people will be happy about this, because we're still not exactly in the free and clear to talk about the things that we want to talk about, namely, you know, hackers and high-tech and things like that, because we have events that are eclipsing the usual subject matter of this program.
[08:26.430 --> 08:28.690]  In fact, the usual subject matter of this radio station.
[08:29.330 --> 08:34.050]  And, Laszlo, I'm glad you're here, because you're a veteran of the commercial radio world.
[08:34.150 --> 08:42.290]  You come in here during fundraisers, and you convince people that non-commercial radio is a good idea, and it's worth pledging for, and you get a lot of people to pledge.
[08:42.290 --> 08:43.010]  Yeah, you do a good job.
[08:43.210 --> 08:43.370]  Yeah.
[08:43.730 --> 08:51.370]  People say, I was going to, you know, just go to sleep, but that Laszlo guy, he scared me, and he made me call in and give all my money to the radio station.
[08:51.390 --> 08:51.990]  You get a cookie.
[08:52.310 --> 08:52.570]  Yeah.
[08:55.450 --> 08:57.150]  So, you understand what it's all about.
[08:57.290 --> 08:59.830]  You understand what the value of a station like this is.
[09:00.210 --> 09:02.230]  Right smack in the middle of the FM dial.
[09:02.450 --> 09:03.150]  I mean, think about it.
[09:03.290 --> 09:05.030]  Here we are, 99.5 FM.
[09:05.210 --> 09:16.130]  Most non-commercial stations are, you know, in a ghetto below 92, and a lot of them have lousy signals, they collide with each other, NPR is always taking over and drowning them out.
[09:16.550 --> 09:26.130]  But here we are with just as much strength as KROQ, or Q10 whatever, you know, and we've stayed here since 1959.
[09:26.510 --> 09:27.210]  Actually, 1960.
[09:27.370 --> 09:31.790]  January 1960 is when this station actually went on the air as a community radio station.
[09:32.230 --> 09:34.030]  Before that, it was a commercial station.
[09:34.030 --> 09:46.850]  And in 1959, the guy who owned the station donated it to the Pacifica Foundation, because he felt that radio should be something that serves the community, should be publicly run.
[09:47.090 --> 09:52.730]  And ever since then, ever since January 1960, this radio station has been here doing just that.
[09:52.810 --> 09:54.810]  On most of the same equipment, if you ask the engineers.
[09:55.110 --> 09:57.050]  Yeah, it's pretty warm in here, I have to say.
[09:57.050 --> 09:58.270]  There's a lot of tubes in the room.
[09:58.270 --> 10:11.290]  That's true, but, you know, we scrimp and save as much as we can, but we bring you the sounds of diversity, the different opinions and ideas, and all you have to do, and you know, I wish we had a program guide, and that's another thing I want to gripe about,
[10:11.330 --> 10:21.350]  why we don't have a program guide that comes out every month like it used to, but if you just look at the program guide, I guess online, you can see the amazing diversity of...
[10:21.350 --> 10:21.910]  It's all over the place.
[10:21.990 --> 10:23.830]  Yeah, of what comes in here every week.
[10:24.090 --> 10:24.710]  I mean, it's unbelievable.
[10:24.710 --> 10:28.830]  We're, you know, a lot of people just tune into Off the Hook, and we have a lot of people listening from around the world right now.
[10:29.490 --> 10:36.830]  I encourage those people to keep listening to the station after our show and just see all the different things that happen throughout the week.
[10:37.550 --> 10:39.410]  You hear different things from the radio station.
[10:39.830 --> 10:40.230]  Absolutely.
[10:40.830 --> 10:54.450]  Yeah, I mean, you know, if you look at the schedule, you'll see programs ranging different cultures from Ireland to the Middle East, to Asia, to Africa, Central America.
[10:54.450 --> 10:57.470]  South America, and North America as well.
[10:58.050 --> 11:00.930]  You'll hear programs about the Grateful Dead.
[11:01.270 --> 11:02.050]  Comic books.
[11:02.650 --> 11:09.930]  That's right, comic books and other computers, you know, the personal computer show, explorations with Dr. Michio Kaku.
[11:10.250 --> 11:10.630]  Weaponry.
[11:10.810 --> 11:12.370]  Weaponry on later tonight.
[11:12.910 --> 11:14.230]  Unbelievable amount of things.
[11:14.470 --> 11:19.870]  And programs like this have been broadcast on this station for more than 40 years now.
[11:19.930 --> 11:20.430]  It's unbelievable.
[11:20.430 --> 11:24.910]  And I don't think there are many stations anywhere that can point to that kind of a record.
[11:25.070 --> 11:27.910]  They usually change formats about every six, seven months.
[11:27.970 --> 11:28.830]  That's what happens.
[11:29.310 --> 11:32.350]  And if you look at any commercial station in this city, pick a station, Lesla.
[11:32.690 --> 11:33.210]  Any station.
[11:34.270 --> 11:34.370]  WNEW.
[11:34.730 --> 11:35.110]  WNEW.
[11:35.250 --> 11:36.030]  Okay, perfect example.
[11:36.490 --> 11:44.850]  That was a station that, actually, I think they kind of defined what FM, the FM alternative radio sound was back in the 60s.
[11:44.990 --> 11:47.590]  That's when DJs went on and played what they wanted to play.
[11:47.590 --> 11:52.710]  That wasn't a playlist, it wasn't a computer telling them, oh, you have to play this piece of music now, and you have to play this kind of commercial.
[11:52.930 --> 12:03.870]  No, people went on the air, and you had guys like Dennis Elsus talking for, you know, for an hour, you know, kind of Gene Shepard-ish, you know, just going on about whatever they feel like talking about.
[12:04.050 --> 12:04.870]  And it was great.
[12:04.990 --> 12:07.290]  That's what radio should have been all about.
[12:07.370 --> 12:08.330]  Of course, it didn't last.
[12:08.910 --> 12:14.710]  It turned into, you know, commercial music through the 70s and 80s and 90s, and now I believe it's a talk station.
[12:14.970 --> 12:17.090]  It's because their ratings were in the toilet for so long.
[12:17.090 --> 12:17.370]  Yeah.
[12:17.530 --> 12:21.370]  Because there were four stations in New York City playing the same music.
[12:22.370 --> 12:31.450]  Yeah, the same... there was so much that comes out over the course of a day that you will never hear on commercial radio because...
[12:31.450 --> 12:34.530]  Because Jethro Tull is coming up next, right after these messages.
[12:34.590 --> 12:35.750]  Not even new Jethro Tull.
[12:36.010 --> 12:36.510]  That's right.
[12:36.510 --> 12:37.350]  Jethro Tull from 30 years ago.
[12:37.450 --> 12:37.550]  Right.
[12:37.990 --> 12:44.510]  But the decisions are made in corporate boardrooms as to what music will get played and what stations will play what music.
[12:45.110 --> 12:46.750]  There's been a lot of consolidation.
[12:47.090 --> 12:48.890]  A lot of the stations are owned by the same people now.
[12:49.050 --> 12:53.810]  In this city alone, NW is owned by... I can't even keep track anymore.
[12:53.930 --> 12:56.330]  They keep... are they Westwood or something?
[12:56.510 --> 12:57.350]  Or are they AMFN?
[12:57.630 --> 12:57.730]  They're CBS.
[12:57.730 --> 12:58.330]  They're CBS?
[12:58.790 --> 12:58.930]  I'm pretty sure.
[12:58.930 --> 12:59.790]  NW is known CBS.
[13:00.030 --> 13:00.530]  So that means...
[13:00.530 --> 13:01.170]  I'm pretty sure.
[13:01.290 --> 13:03.230]  I guess WCBS is owned by CBS.
[13:03.490 --> 13:03.670]  Right.
[13:03.890 --> 13:05.270]  I know KROQ is owned by CBS.
[13:05.530 --> 13:05.690]  Right.
[13:05.690 --> 13:07.750]  I know WIN-S is owned by CBS.
[13:07.770 --> 13:09.350]  I know WFAN is owned by CBS.
[13:09.370 --> 13:10.670]  An infinity broadcasting station.
[13:10.790 --> 13:11.330]  It's insane.
[13:11.490 --> 13:12.090]  It's absolutely insane.
[13:12.130 --> 13:13.230]  They keep merging and growing.
[13:13.250 --> 13:14.150]  It's like some kind of virus.
[13:14.330 --> 13:15.330]  And I just found this out.
[13:16.010 --> 13:19.830]  The company that owns 1,500 radio stations, our good friend's Clear Channel.
[13:20.070 --> 13:20.170]  Yeah.
[13:20.550 --> 13:21.570]  1,500 now?
[13:21.710 --> 13:22.330]  It's 1,500.
[13:22.490 --> 13:23.490]  A few weeks ago, it was 1,000.
[13:23.690 --> 13:23.870]  Right.
[13:24.050 --> 13:26.650]  And their goal is 2,000 by the end of next year.
[13:26.750 --> 13:27.410]  And they're working on it.
[13:27.410 --> 13:30.570]  And they just acquired SFX, which owns venues.
[13:31.070 --> 13:37.690]  So they now own concert venues throughout the United States, which means that they can make or break an artist from start to finish.
[13:37.730 --> 13:39.190]  Why don't they just buy the bands?
[13:40.770 --> 13:43.110]  The Rolling Stones, a Coca-Cola band, you know?
[13:43.270 --> 13:43.730]  Why not?
[13:45.290 --> 13:46.170]  It's insane.
[13:46.350 --> 13:46.550]  Anyway.
[13:46.650 --> 13:50.350]  We have these so-called bands, which are really just creations of commercial entities.
[13:50.490 --> 13:51.990]  That's pretty much what it's turned into.
[13:52.190 --> 13:52.630]  Absolutely.
[13:52.990 --> 13:58.950]  But radio has always been my passion, because radio is something that I consider to be public, you know, the public airwaves.
[13:59.070 --> 14:01.130]  You can't own a piece of the electromagnetic spectrum.
[14:01.290 --> 14:09.250]  However, that's exactly what it's turned into, because you have these entities that just own not only one major station in a market, but up to six, seven, even more sometimes.
[14:09.430 --> 14:10.890]  It's kind of like the open source movement.
[14:11.230 --> 14:11.530]  Yeah.
[14:12.430 --> 14:12.990]  What is?
[14:13.670 --> 14:14.030]  Radio.
[14:14.370 --> 14:15.230]  Oh, radio, of course.
[14:15.230 --> 14:16.130]  Information should be free.
[14:16.590 --> 14:18.130]  I was making a great analogy there.
[14:18.130 --> 14:20.090]  Well, except for the fact that it's not working that way.
[14:20.250 --> 14:20.550]  I caught that one.
[14:20.650 --> 14:23.010]  I'm still working on the Republican counting thing, but I caught that.
[14:24.230 --> 14:24.590]  Anyway.
[14:25.730 --> 14:27.230]  Anyway, how does that relate to us?
[14:27.410 --> 14:35.450]  Well, it relates to us, unfortunately, because we're seeing some of the same tendencies happening to our radio station, to our radio network.
[14:35.630 --> 14:42.170]  WBAI has been part of the network known as the Pacifica Network, and that network owns five radio stations.
[14:42.430 --> 14:50.930]  It's WBAI in New York, KPFT Houston, WPFW Washington, D.C., KPFK in Los Angeles, and KPFA in Berkeley.
[14:50.930 --> 15:01.690]  You may recall about a year ago, there was a situation in Berkeley where the general manager of that station was fired against the wishes of the staff members.
[15:02.190 --> 15:04.950]  She was fired by Pacifica management.
[15:05.610 --> 15:10.090]  So you had this entity, which in that particular case was in the same city.
[15:10.350 --> 15:12.430]  At that time, Pacifica headquarters were in Berkeley.
[15:12.430 --> 15:22.750]  You have this entity that wasn't the radio station firing people who worked for the radio station and replacing them with people that they deemed were suitable.
[15:23.110 --> 15:25.550]  Well, this didn't go over well with the staff members there.
[15:25.670 --> 15:27.050]  This didn't go over well with the listeners.
[15:28.370 --> 15:48.270]  And in probably one of the most shocking things I think I've ever heard on the radio, a reporter who was reporting on one of the demonstrations or meetings that was taking place to condemn this particular move was yanked off the air, mid-sentence, live on the air by armed security guards in that radio station.
[15:48.470 --> 15:53.650]  Yanked off the air because he dared to report on a story.
[15:54.330 --> 16:06.230]  Now, Pacifica has this crazy thing known as the gag rule, which I don't think anybody here at WBAI respects, rightfully so, that says that you're not allowed to speak about certain things involving Pacifica radio.
[16:06.490 --> 16:15.030]  If Pacifica radio goes on a shooting rampage in a high school someplace, you're not allowed to talk about it because it's about Pacifica and that's internal business.
[16:15.210 --> 16:17.810]  Well, there's a time when that makes sense.
[16:18.130 --> 16:20.070]  And there's a time when that does not make sense.
[16:20.590 --> 16:25.290]  And the time when it does not make sense is when radio stations are in jeopardy.
[16:27.170 --> 16:28.970]  KPFA was in jeopardy back then.
[16:29.850 --> 16:39.630]  And they certainly fell into discord right after that because as soon as, as the reporter was dragged off the air, the station was taken over by Pacifica and shut down.
[16:40.310 --> 16:42.230]  Canned music was played for over a month.
[16:42.910 --> 16:45.230]  And demonstrations raged in the street outside.
[16:46.750 --> 16:52.510]  And that eventually resulted in the station being given back to the people who were running it.
[16:52.790 --> 16:57.270]  And it's been relatively peaceful since, although there have been all kinds of ominous signs of things to come.
[16:57.670 --> 17:14.630]  Well, one of those ominous signs hit us pretty full in the face last week when almost the exact same thing happened, where our general manager was, in effect, fired by Pacifica without much notice, Valerie Van Isler, who has been general manager here for as long as I can remember,
[17:15.910 --> 17:20.050]  was told that, well, she had to start working for Pacifica in Washington, D.C.
[17:20.250 --> 17:22.390]  or else don't work for us at all.
[17:22.530 --> 17:26.230]  And someone more suitable for the radio station would be appointed in her place.
[17:26.330 --> 17:28.750]  Well, you know, this is New York.
[17:28.970 --> 17:34.590]  We've always been kind of like, you know, apart from the internal politics.
[17:35.190 --> 17:36.670]  So this did not sit very well.
[17:37.190 --> 17:38.090]  And there have been meetings.
[17:38.150 --> 17:41.910]  There's a meeting going on right now, in fact, to discuss what's happening with this.
[17:42.050 --> 17:44.290]  Am I going to get yanked off the air by armed guards?
[17:44.570 --> 17:44.910]  It's quite possible.
[17:44.990 --> 17:46.110]  Well, I don't think we have armed guards.
[17:46.210 --> 17:49.670]  You see, the difference in New York is that this is a big building.
[17:49.830 --> 17:51.070]  Well, we're on Wall Street, too.
[17:51.190 --> 17:51.870]  We're on Wall Street.
[17:51.970 --> 17:52.890]  I'll get to that in a second.
[17:52.990 --> 17:54.290]  But this is a big building.
[17:55.170 --> 17:58.670]  In Berkeley, it was a small building, and they shared it with Pacifica Management.
[17:59.290 --> 18:03.470]  So it was a lot easier for them to bring their armed security guards and surround the building and that kind of thing.
[18:03.990 --> 18:06.370]  Here, they have to get by that guy downstairs.
[18:06.890 --> 18:07.350]  You know?
[18:07.630 --> 18:08.910]  And he's a security guard.
[18:08.990 --> 18:09.450]  He's a good guy.
[18:09.530 --> 18:10.370]  I like him.
[18:10.450 --> 18:11.270]  He's on our side.
[18:11.730 --> 18:16.850]  With all respect to that guy, I think a group of armed thugs could get by him.
[18:16.990 --> 18:17.590]  You think so?
[18:17.610 --> 18:18.490]  You really think so?
[18:18.950 --> 18:20.310]  You don't know him very well, then.
[18:20.650 --> 18:21.190]  I guess.
[18:21.410 --> 18:32.950]  Now, there are many, many tenants in the building, and it is in the middle of New York City, and it just wouldn't be as physically easy to do this kind of a thing.
[18:35.850 --> 18:41.090]  So, I think we're in better shape in New York than we are in Berkeley.
[18:41.570 --> 18:42.210]  Do we have an update?
[18:42.990 --> 18:43.210]  What do we got?
[18:46.090 --> 18:47.430]  Why don't you tell us?
[18:49.730 --> 18:50.350]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[18:50.530 --> 18:50.850]  How you doing?
[18:51.170 --> 18:51.530]  How you doing?
[18:52.050 --> 18:52.950]  Let me have the headphones, man.
[18:53.610 --> 18:55.130]  You can't go on the radio without headphones.
[18:55.270 --> 18:55.630]  That's really cool.
[18:55.670 --> 18:56.050]  Well, I can.
[18:56.410 --> 18:57.170]  Everybody else can.
[18:58.870 --> 19:00.490]  Yes, we're having a meeting right now.
[19:00.590 --> 19:01.130]  Introduce yourself.
[19:01.510 --> 19:02.690]  Hi, I'm Anthony Sloan.
[19:02.870 --> 19:04.530]  Anthony Sloan is the guy that taught me everything.
[19:04.770 --> 19:05.790]  I know here at the radio station.
[19:06.030 --> 19:07.630]  Well, that's a little whatever statement.
[19:07.890 --> 19:09.110]  I just helped you through.
[19:09.710 --> 19:22.510]  Anyway, his situation as we stand now, well, not the situation, but basically Pacifica through Betsy Wash, the, I guess, whatever she is.
[19:22.770 --> 19:24.970]  General manager of the Pacifica network or something?
[19:25.190 --> 19:25.550]  Whatever the title is.
[19:25.550 --> 19:31.590]  Anyway, she basically gave Valerie a letter.
[19:32.370 --> 19:32.830]  Mm-hmm.
[19:32.830 --> 19:36.730]  Valerie Van Eslau, general manager, basically a firing letter, let's put it that way.
[19:37.050 --> 19:37.150]  Mm-hmm.
[19:37.150 --> 19:41.930]  Since then, Valerie has sent her own letter to appeal that firing.
[19:42.250 --> 19:42.450]  Mm-hmm.
[19:42.450 --> 19:45.690]  And the way things go, they'll just go the way they go.
[19:46.250 --> 19:51.650]  And, and so supposedly this takes effect on December 31st.
[19:51.970 --> 20:09.310]  They, Betsy Wash has indicated that she basically has asked some people to be interim general manager, but no one has responded yet, so we're, even though Valerie's still on the job, there is nobody named as interim general manager, whatever have you.
[20:09.410 --> 20:25.790]  Now, what we can do, by the way, I don't want to make this too long, but I can do that paper because there is a listener group, there's two Pacifica National Board members that asked for a listener group to help them out with Pacifica problems, and they have been on the job.
[20:25.890 --> 20:27.710]  There was a gigantic meeting yesterday.
[20:28.650 --> 20:49.470]  And there will be a demonstration because there are at least four people, at least four the way of, you know, you know, your NPRs, your BBCs, your whatever, you know, your PRIs.
[20:49.730 --> 20:51.710]  That's something that I think the listeners need to understand.
[20:51.910 --> 20:52.270]  Why?
[20:52.530 --> 20:58.330]  You have a successful radio station, popular, you know, we bring in lots of money for the fundraisers.
[20:58.650 --> 21:04.350]  Why was somebody in a remote office, maybe Laszlo, you know the answer to this, why would somebody want to mess with that?
[21:05.390 --> 21:07.010]  Anthony, you have no idea, right?
[21:07.010 --> 21:07.670]  I have no idea either.
[21:07.670 --> 21:08.650]  I do have an idea.
[21:08.870 --> 21:09.490]  They hate us.
[21:09.590 --> 21:10.770]  They don't like our politics.
[21:10.910 --> 21:11.990]  They don't like what we do.
[21:11.990 --> 21:17.250]  We're out of step with the so-called rest of the world as they see it, as they know it.
[21:17.670 --> 21:22.790]  And though we're speaking, we speak truth to power as we say whatever it is, and there's a lot of people understand what we do.
[21:22.870 --> 21:30.210]  And when they switch the dials, they find us and they get this refreshing oasis and they stick with us and they give us money to support us and we get these huge fundraisers.
[21:30.410 --> 21:33.750]  But that has nothing to do with the powers that be that don't want us around.
[21:34.110 --> 21:43.270]  But anyway, what we're trying to do is basically put pressure on at least one of those four people that are on a mission, you know, about BAN.
[21:43.470 --> 21:47.670]  This person is involved with a law firm that's basically anti-union and he's here in New York.
[21:47.850 --> 21:54.510]  His name is John Murdock and there'll be a demonstration five o'clock on Thursday at his law offices.
[21:54.770 --> 21:56.070]  And you have the address and everything like that.
[21:56.330 --> 21:57.290]  250 Park Avenue.
[21:57.510 --> 21:58.190]  That's by...
[21:58.190 --> 22:00.330]  I think that's about 47th Street or so on Park Avenue.
[22:00.330 --> 22:04.770]  You know how, you know how the, I guess it's not too long, is it the Pan Am building, the Met Life building?
[22:04.890 --> 22:06.270]  Not the Met Life building, last I checked.
[22:06.430 --> 22:06.610]  Right.
[22:07.210 --> 22:10.870]  You know, right up above that, you know, you know, a little bit a ways up Park Avenue from there.
[22:11.030 --> 22:13.250]  It's the offices of Epstein, Becker and Green.
[22:13.430 --> 22:13.910]  That's right.
[22:14.050 --> 22:16.110]  250 Park Avenue, 5 p.m.
[22:16.110 --> 22:16.850]  on Thursday.
[22:17.310 --> 22:30.970]  Yeah, there's a huge demonstration because what we're trying to do is one of the prompts, one of the approaches that the listeners, well, the listeners have said is that we want to start removing these board members or putting pressure on these board members that have no idea what Pacifica is about.
[22:31.110 --> 22:32.910]  We don't even know why, we do know why they're sitting on the board.
[22:33.010 --> 22:35.570]  You've got people that's in real estate, you know, that know how to move.
[22:35.690 --> 22:36.570]  That's what I don't understand.
[22:36.830 --> 22:38.130]  You know, we know how to gather.
[22:38.270 --> 22:51.110]  This national board, which has been sort of rising, like, you know, some kind of plant that was planted years ago, and you have these people who really have no relation to the station, but they're dictating policy, they're involved with all kinds of other commercial interests.
[22:51.490 --> 22:52.210]  Who are these people?
[22:52.230 --> 22:53.090]  How did they get into power?
[22:53.270 --> 22:57.230]  And they've been holding secret meetings for a little while, then they had to open up these meetings.
[22:57.230 --> 23:01.550]  There's a long history of certain people that's involved that have done things at other stations.
[23:01.770 --> 23:08.950]  What's amazing to me, and I've, you know, we're going to hear on these airways a lot of this sort of stuff, you know, you get different takes.
[23:09.110 --> 23:24.490]  We advise you to listen to BAI as much as you possibly can, even if you hate what we say, for the next few weeks, because, I mean, it really, let me put it this way, if the only conduit you had, you know, was your TV set, and somebody said, look, you no longer have your TV set,
[23:24.530 --> 23:26.230]  we're going to give you this little box here.
[23:26.230 --> 23:30.730]  We call it a TV, but it's no longer your TV set, and you've got to listen, it's the only thing you want to listen to.
[23:31.150 --> 23:40.630]  Well, that's what, they're taking away your TV set, you know, they're taking away your alternative to what we know as fact, let's put it that way, your alternative to fact.
[23:40.870 --> 23:46.650]  There's facts, there's stubborn facts, there's, you know, swayed facts, there's truthful facts, there's, I don't know, you know, whatever.
[23:46.650 --> 23:49.850]  So we need our listeners to stand guard and watch over this.
[23:49.890 --> 23:54.370]  In a way, we're very lucky because we're a radio station and it's easy to keep track of what we're doing.
[23:54.770 --> 24:02.750]  And also, it's incredibly stupid, I think, to try and challenge people who obviously are very dedicated to causes.
[24:02.750 --> 24:07.530]  The people of BAI, I think, have facedown authority more than any group in the city, probably.
[24:08.130 --> 24:20.710]  And to have a radio station, a 50,000-watt radio station everybody can listen to, to try and challenge that, to take those people off the air or to replace it with God knows what, I mean, how well thought out is a plan like that?
[24:20.830 --> 24:33.670]  Well, see, I think they do have an immediacy problem because, remember, starting last year with Seattle, they realized, you know, there is an alternative media that's very, very powerful and uncontrollable.
[24:34.110 --> 24:36.990]  And I travel the world a lot.
[24:37.630 --> 24:42.970]  And when people ask me where I'm from, I say, well, I deal with WBAI radio, which is part of the Pacifica network.
[24:42.970 --> 24:45.190]  It's a radical network in the United States.
[24:45.330 --> 24:48.330]  And if you consider that, we're the most radical station in a radical network.
[24:48.650 --> 24:56.710]  Well, if you get rid of the most radical station in what's no longer a radical network, then basically you've furthered your cause.
[24:57.190 --> 25:01.290]  You know, and I mean, as with the rise with the Internet now, we're, you know, we're worldwide.
[25:01.470 --> 25:04.810]  A lot of people who don't know about us before are knowing about us.
[25:04.990 --> 25:06.610]  They understand we're very dedicated.
[25:06.750 --> 25:08.210]  Everybody has this field of expertise.
[25:08.390 --> 25:08.950]  That's what we do.
[25:08.950 --> 25:10.910]  I mean, I'm not a political person.
[25:11.110 --> 25:11.770]  Well, I shouldn't say that.
[25:11.810 --> 25:12.430]  Everything's political.
[25:12.610 --> 25:13.790]  But, I mean, I do my art.
[25:13.830 --> 25:14.410]  That's what I do.
[25:14.530 --> 25:21.350]  But when something like this happens, I can't stand by and let the station that lets me do my art fall apart.
[25:21.350 --> 25:32.710]  Well, you can't stand by and let the station who gives you the information that you need to counteract this, you know, these people that just read, you know, the post or read whatever they read and argue inanely with you.
[25:32.810 --> 25:34.090]  You can't let them take that away.
[25:34.190 --> 25:34.870]  It's as simple as that.
[25:34.870 --> 25:40.070]  Is there someplace online that people can go and send an email?
[25:40.430 --> 25:44.490]  You know, if somebody's listening to us in Sweden, is there, you know, a way that they can join in on the protest?
[25:44.590 --> 25:54.730]  Well, there's a website at www.savepacifica.net, which has been up for quite some time, that has all kinds of information on the various things happening to the Pacifica stations over the last few years.
[25:54.730 --> 25:59.690]  There's a petition that's been passed around for Valerie.
[26:00.010 --> 26:06.950]  If you go to www.britishprogressives.org, don't ask.
[26:07.050 --> 26:11.410]  I don't understand why it's British Progressives, but that's who it is that has the petition to save Valerie's job.
[26:12.210 --> 26:18.010]  And we've got some things up on our site as well, www.2600.com.
[26:18.590 --> 26:26.370]  There's the unofficial BAI Union webpage at www.glib.com, G-L-I-B, slash union.html.
[26:27.150 --> 26:32.530]  All kinds of pages are popping up, and I think we're really using the net as much as we possibly can.
[26:32.650 --> 26:35.950]  We have a stream of audio on wbai.org.
[26:36.110 --> 26:40.890]  We've put a second stream up on 2600.com, and that can only grow.
[26:41.370 --> 26:52.750]  We can have people around the world monitoring the situation and making sure it does not get out of control, making sure that people do not try and mess with this station that really has been serving the public.
[26:52.970 --> 26:56.430]  The people who are making these decisions now don't even live in New York.
[26:56.590 --> 26:58.570]  They have no idea what the listeners are about.
[26:58.650 --> 27:00.070]  They have no idea what the programming is about.
[27:00.230 --> 27:01.830]  It's not even a matter of where they live.
[27:02.170 --> 27:05.690]  They are from law firms that union busts.
[27:05.870 --> 27:10.490]  They are from real estate concerns.
[27:10.750 --> 27:13.410]  They're from places that sell radio stations.
[27:13.750 --> 27:15.610]  These are the kind of people that's on the national board.
[27:15.610 --> 27:20.750]  And these people have to be, quite frankly, in my estimation, it's not editorial, it's fact.
[27:20.790 --> 27:21.510]  They have to be removed.
[27:22.070 --> 27:28.270]  We even have people, ex-station managers at the station, or at the board, you know, throwing daggers at us.
[27:28.330 --> 27:29.650]  I mean, it's a weird situation.
[27:29.810 --> 27:33.470]  What makes people greedy or what makes people unprincipled all of a sudden in their later life?
[27:33.470 --> 27:34.630]  I have no idea, you know.
[27:34.890 --> 27:38.790]  But we, people who are still involved with this, cannot let this happen.
[27:38.850 --> 27:39.430]  It's as simple as that.
[27:39.430 --> 27:45.650]  The part that you mentioned that really concerns me is the people who have connections to places that sell radio stations.
[27:45.850 --> 27:49.470]  Now, 99.5 FM, 50,000 watts, middle of New York City.
[27:49.570 --> 27:51.050]  How valuable do you think that frequency is?
[27:51.050 --> 27:54.890]  Oh, let's start with, we'll open a bid at maybe, we'll say 200 million.
[27:55.370 --> 27:55.670]  At least.
[27:55.670 --> 27:56.690]  Can we open it at 200 million?
[27:56.850 --> 27:57.230]  At least.
[27:57.230 --> 27:58.430]  Oh, in this day and age.
[27:58.550 --> 27:59.370]  Do you hear 220 going out on 200?
[27:59.510 --> 28:02.290]  You know, if you go a couple of months, who knows?
[28:02.670 --> 28:05.090]  You know, you link this with that, and oh, come on now.
[28:05.190 --> 28:08.290]  You know, everything's buying out, everything's, you know, it's just insane.
[28:08.410 --> 28:13.210]  I mean, this is like, this is like a bad TV show, you know, that's on the USA Network and repeats late at night.
[28:13.630 --> 28:21.870]  But basically, you have this secret board meeting someplace undisclosed that has this amazing control over this $200 million radio station.
[28:21.990 --> 28:26.670]  And all they have to do is get a bunch of freaks out of their way, and they got all this money to play with.
[28:26.670 --> 28:28.230]  They can do all kinds of things with it.
[28:28.230 --> 28:28.730]  Let me give you an example.
[28:29.570 --> 28:35.390]  This national board person, the person that speaks for the board or whatever her title is, I'm sorry, I don't remember her title.
[28:35.510 --> 28:36.930]  Betsy Wash is her name.
[28:36.990 --> 28:37.770]  She was at a meeting.
[28:37.850 --> 28:38.530]  She was here today.
[28:38.930 --> 28:40.630]  She came in about 1 o'clock or so.
[28:40.730 --> 28:41.250]  We had a meeting.
[28:42.250 --> 28:51.370]  And when asked, well, you know, when stations basically asked, one of the producers said, well, look, you know, in the union contract, there's a way to, you know, fire and manage.
[28:51.450 --> 28:52.690]  If you want to do that, you do it this way.
[28:52.950 --> 28:55.230]  She said she hadn't even read the union contract.
[28:55.410 --> 28:55.770]  How nice.
[28:56.730 --> 28:58.030]  By what authority did you fire?
[28:58.170 --> 29:00.990]  Well, you know, I just did it because it's in my purview to do it.
[29:02.130 --> 29:04.130]  I'm not sure what purview she's talking about.
[29:04.210 --> 29:06.690]  I'm not sure what edict she gets this stuff from.
[29:06.750 --> 29:09.930]  But the point is, there is no, you've got to have some kind of review.
[29:10.210 --> 29:16.110]  I mean, you can't just, I can't just come in and say, hey, Emmanuel, you're wearing a green shirt today that says green, so get out of here.
[29:16.250 --> 29:20.210]  We don't allow people with green wires from the microphone talking with green shirts.
[29:20.390 --> 29:20.990]  I mean, it's arbitrary.
[29:21.210 --> 29:21.850]  You can't do that.
[29:21.850 --> 29:24.390]  But, Anthony, that's how commercial radio works.
[29:24.830 --> 29:26.450]  That's exactly what we're talking about.
[29:26.610 --> 29:29.050]  One day you're playing country music, the next day you're playing, you know, rap.
[29:29.290 --> 29:36.330]  I think one of the big problems is that a lot of people that sit on these boards and sit in these situations, they don't come from where we come from.
[29:36.410 --> 29:37.870]  They didn't start as telephone volunteers.
[29:37.870 --> 29:44.830]  You know, they wasn't sitting in some sweaty room at 505 learning an ancient board and then coming over here and have to readjust to a new board.
[29:45.170 --> 29:47.030]  You know, that's not where they come from.
[29:47.130 --> 29:49.170]  They come from money concerns or whatever.
[29:49.390 --> 29:50.930]  When they have a problem, they throw money at it.
[29:51.050 --> 29:52.310]  When they have a problem, they throw police at it.
[29:52.390 --> 29:53.650]  When they have a problem, they throw an army at it.
[29:53.770 --> 29:54.790]  When they have a problem, you know what I'm saying?
[29:54.950 --> 29:58.270]  They just, they'll frame you, you know, to get rid of you.
[29:58.350 --> 30:01.810]  Whatever they need to do, they just go ahead and do it and damn the consequences.
[30:02.110 --> 30:04.250]  I use market research as their excuse.
[30:04.250 --> 30:07.170]  I've been at several radio stations that have blown out their entire staff.
[30:07.350 --> 30:11.970]  And it's pretty easy to do, because all you have to do is keep people out of the building, because they can't get to the microphone.
[30:12.130 --> 30:15.990]  But, but, with commercial radio stations, how much of a staff do you really have?
[30:15.990 --> 30:17.230]  You don't have hundreds of people.
[30:17.350 --> 30:22.230]  You don't have hundreds of idealistic volunteers who will lie down in front of a bulldozer to save the place.
[30:22.370 --> 30:24.050]  Right, you have trained monkeys that play Pearl Jam.
[30:24.230 --> 30:24.550]  Exactly.
[30:24.970 --> 30:28.310]  But you know, there's an interesting situation, because everybody talks about a changing radio station.
[30:28.430 --> 30:38.810]  I remember about a year ago, I was traveling, I came back into New York, and there's this new radio station, I forget, playing like, you know, black music from the 60s.
[30:38.910 --> 30:39.310]  Let me put it there.
[30:39.390 --> 30:40.170]  Or the 70s, you know?
[30:40.430 --> 30:40.590]  Right.
[30:40.690 --> 30:43.550]  And they just kept on playing this music, and everybody started to tune into them.
[30:43.730 --> 30:45.990]  And I said, as soon as that happened, I said, you know what they're going to do?
[30:46.390 --> 30:51.750]  In a few months, they're going to hit them with so many commercials, you know, that people are going to get disgusted with that radio station.
[30:51.950 --> 30:54.450]  Then what they'll do, they'll go and they'll change their format again.
[30:54.630 --> 30:57.810]  You know, play a lot of it, get everybody excited, get advertisers involved.
[30:58.110 --> 30:59.050]  Then they'll change the format.
[30:59.190 --> 31:00.490]  They can keep on doing that all they want.
[31:00.490 --> 31:02.190]  We have a tradition for 41 years.
[31:02.330 --> 31:04.790]  We have not basically changed what we do.
[31:04.970 --> 31:05.710]  We have a mission.
[31:05.870 --> 31:06.710]  We keep on with it.
[31:07.050 --> 31:08.930]  These folks want to come here and change our mission.
[31:09.030 --> 31:10.850]  Not what we do, but our mission.
[31:11.270 --> 31:15.890]  That's what cannot be... I mean, I can... Look, Emmanuel, you are replaceable.
[31:15.990 --> 31:17.170]  Look, I was ostracic for a long time.
[31:17.570 --> 31:18.650]  I'm replaceable.
[31:18.830 --> 31:20.010]  You know, I leave.
[31:20.110 --> 31:23.790]  The station keeps on going on in whatever direction, but they keep on going on.
[31:23.910 --> 31:24.830]  I go and do something else.
[31:24.950 --> 31:29.350]  I come back and come back and still do my art at this station because it's the same mission.
[31:29.350 --> 31:32.150]  You know, we're trying to give voice to the voice, speak truth to the power and all that other.
[31:32.490 --> 31:33.410]  Nice, happy stuff.
[31:33.570 --> 31:34.510]  But these folks don't do that.
[31:34.570 --> 31:36.830]  The only people who can change our mission are the listeners.
[31:37.090 --> 31:37.390]  Thank you.
[31:37.730 --> 31:44.750]  And if you don't do something, then after each show, it's going to be like, hey, that was brought to you by Archer Daniels Midland, makers of Novasaur.
[31:44.930 --> 31:45.090]  Don't say that.
[31:45.290 --> 31:50.290]  Anyway, I'm going to leave, but I just want to drop that on you, Emmanuel, because I know you have listeners from all over the place.
[31:50.490 --> 31:56.830]  And one of the things we really need to do is, you know, we do have a relationship with listeners that we're talking right now, you know, through the microphone.
[31:56.830 --> 32:00.330]  But there's another relationship we need to have in this time of, here we go, struggle.
[32:00.590 --> 32:06.050]  I don't care how cold it is, what kind of, what the weather conditions are, but Thursday, we need to see a lot of folks out there and start talking.
[32:06.550 --> 32:07.490]  Producers will be out there.
[32:07.590 --> 32:08.310]  Everybody will be out there.
[32:08.590 --> 32:10.830]  Start talking to each other and find out what we can continue to do.
[32:11.010 --> 32:11.990]  Yeah, and it's very important.
[32:12.050 --> 32:14.190]  That's something I'm worried about is the weather.
[32:14.430 --> 32:15.810]  You know, people might be turned off by the weather.
[32:15.890 --> 32:17.910]  Perfect time to make these moves.
[32:18.090 --> 32:19.790]  So keep that in mind.
[32:19.790 --> 32:20.430]  It's a tactic.
[32:20.550 --> 32:21.730]  You have to counter these tactics.
[32:21.930 --> 32:24.070]  Yes, I think there are demonstrations in the cold.
[32:24.450 --> 32:25.310]  You want to hold on to that?
[32:25.310 --> 32:26.350]  Yeah, I'll hold on to this.
[32:26.570 --> 32:27.090]  Okay, I'll get another one.
[32:27.210 --> 32:27.310]  Thank you.
[32:27.310 --> 32:28.050]  Okay, thanks.
[32:28.910 --> 32:31.050]  Well, by the way, you do great work.
[32:31.170 --> 32:31.630]  Well, thank you.
[32:31.770 --> 32:33.110]  I'm so happy I trained you.
[32:33.250 --> 32:33.670]  So do you.
[32:34.530 --> 32:35.710]  That's a dude that trained you?
[32:35.930 --> 32:36.330]  Yeah.
[32:36.730 --> 32:37.130]  Wow.
[32:37.410 --> 32:37.890]  Amazing, huh?
[32:38.190 --> 32:39.010]  Didn't think I was trainable.
[32:40.210 --> 32:49.250]  But there are so many people here at the station I admire so much who really stand up for what they believe in and work hard and accomplish so much.
[32:49.250 --> 33:02.830]  And it's a real slap in the face to people like that to just move in and make decisions and change staff people and change scheduling and change formats and impose all kinds of arbitrary laws and rules.
[33:03.530 --> 33:05.830]  We just can't put up with that.
[33:05.970 --> 33:06.790]  We can't stand for that.
[33:06.790 --> 33:13.630]  Now, a lot of people have disagreed with Valerie, our general manager, over the years on various things that she's done.
[33:13.730 --> 33:15.930]  And I'm sure I disagree quite a bit, too.
[33:16.350 --> 33:19.450]  And there are things that we need to continue to hash out.
[33:19.690 --> 33:29.810]  But I think we're all pretty much together knowing that this is somebody who cares about the radio station as it is, who will stand up to network people.
[33:29.810 --> 33:35.310]  A few weeks ago, a few weeks ago, we had a situation here on election night where we were supposed to be on.
[33:35.390 --> 33:42.350]  And all of a sudden, we weren't on because it was decreed from far away that Pacifica would do an election night show.
[33:43.490 --> 33:52.470]  And, you know, I normally don't criticize other programming, but there was really nothing in that program that you could not hear on NPR or anyplace else.
[33:52.690 --> 33:53.670]  There was nothing there.
[33:53.770 --> 33:54.530]  There was no reason for it.
[33:54.610 --> 33:56.430]  And it ended at about 11 o'clock.
[33:56.430 --> 33:59.130]  And as you know, that election, well, it's still going on.
[33:59.450 --> 34:01.910]  But it really got interesting about 2 or 3 in the morning.
[34:02.190 --> 34:03.790]  And, of course, there was nothing on then.
[34:03.990 --> 34:05.010]  There was no point to it.
[34:05.050 --> 34:13.270]  But it was rather an ominous thing because it was a directive issued from far away saying, no, you will cancel all your programming and put this on instead.
[34:14.010 --> 34:16.990]  Now, okay, Election Day, you know, maybe.
[34:17.570 --> 34:19.010]  Some advance notice would have been nice.
[34:19.990 --> 34:22.270]  But this is the kind of thing that could happen every day.
[34:22.270 --> 34:23.510]  It could happen a lot.
[34:23.510 --> 34:30.550]  And the programming that you hear could be all kinds of, you know, really monotonous garbage that you never asked for.
[34:30.750 --> 34:33.870]  And no hacker shows because that's too out there.
[34:34.130 --> 34:34.470]  Absolutely.
[34:34.810 --> 34:35.590]  I asked a friend of mine.
[34:35.730 --> 34:37.790]  I said, what's going on with all this?
[34:37.990 --> 34:40.430]  You know, why are they trying to mess with BAI?
[34:40.510 --> 34:43.590]  And he said, Laszlo, liberals are not your friend.
[34:44.030 --> 34:45.490]  They want to turn it into NPR.
[34:46.070 --> 34:46.990]  That's what he told me.
[34:48.430 --> 34:49.530]  I agree with that sentiment.
[34:49.530 --> 34:54.250]  Getting away from just the whole political end of it, though, it's a radio thing.
[34:54.490 --> 34:56.570]  It's commercial radio mentality.
[34:56.710 --> 35:00.650]  And that commercial radio mentality extends into the non-commercial world.
[35:00.710 --> 35:02.170]  You see it on national public radio.
[35:02.530 --> 35:09.330]  You see it even at some college stations where it's least common denominator driven.
[35:09.590 --> 35:12.110]  And that's something we have never been here at this radio station.
[35:12.110 --> 35:14.690]  We always appeal to all kinds of different people.
[35:14.690 --> 35:21.530]  And that's why, you know, I don't think anybody can actually listen to this station 24 hours a day and not run out of the room screaming at some point.
[35:22.750 --> 35:23.870]  But that's good radio.
[35:24.170 --> 35:26.910]  That means that it's making you react in some way.
[35:27.090 --> 35:27.310]  Yes.
[35:27.570 --> 35:31.170]  And you come back another time and you hear something that you really like.
[35:31.190 --> 35:37.930]  And there are so many times where I've been driving around in my car listening to this radio station that I have to stop and wait for a show to end before I can get out of my car.
[35:38.230 --> 35:39.050]  That's how good it is.
[35:39.090 --> 35:39.850]  That's how much I'm learning.
[35:40.470 --> 35:42.510]  You don't get that listening to other radio stations.
[35:42.670 --> 35:43.570]  You just don't get that.
[35:43.570 --> 35:45.490]  Now, you know, those other radio stations, they're not in danger.
[35:45.690 --> 35:45.930]  Fine.
[35:46.050 --> 35:46.650]  Let them exist.
[35:46.850 --> 35:46.990]  Whatever.
[35:47.490 --> 35:49.550]  But this radio station is in danger.
[35:50.170 --> 35:52.010]  And we have to stand up and protect it.
[35:52.110 --> 35:53.350]  Otherwise, it's going to be gone.
[35:53.450 --> 35:55.110]  And you won't hear programs like this.
[35:55.170 --> 35:59.190]  You won't hear programs like all the kinds of different things ever again on any other place.
[35:59.810 --> 36:00.590]  Simple as that.
[36:00.750 --> 36:05.970]  So if ever there was a time to come forward and show unity, this is the time.
[36:06.030 --> 36:06.730]  Now, how do you do that?
[36:06.810 --> 36:07.990]  Especially if you're not in the city.
[36:08.110 --> 36:10.390]  Well, let people know about this.
[36:10.470 --> 36:11.590]  Turn people on to the station.
[36:11.590 --> 36:13.790]  And go to the website, savepacifica.net.
[36:13.930 --> 36:14.270]  That's right.
[36:14.430 --> 36:24.070]  Keep updated on the situation and keep listening to the station around the clock and find out if anything happens that action needs to be taken to prevent.
[36:24.250 --> 36:24.970]  That's what it's all about.
[36:25.150 --> 36:27.470]  We're going to take phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[36:27.470 --> 36:28.950]  We'd like to stick to this topic.
[36:29.090 --> 36:31.690]  This is kind of a crisis situation.
[36:31.790 --> 36:33.190]  It really is a crisis situation here.
[36:33.190 --> 36:36.190]  We have a meeting going on down the hall where we're deciding how to handle this.
[36:36.190 --> 36:42.450]  It's a scary thing because when you see what happened in Berkeley last year, you realize this can get serious very fast.
[36:43.630 --> 36:51.450]  And when major money is involved, and when you have a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of the FM dial in New York City, major money is involved.
[36:53.090 --> 36:54.730]  People act irrationally.
[36:56.070 --> 36:57.530]  They bring in the heavy artillery.
[36:59.270 --> 37:01.510]  And that's not something we want to see happen to this place.
[37:01.630 --> 37:10.550]  We don't want to see this taken over and turned into some other kind of format that there's absolutely no creativity where we just play a bunch of canned music.
[37:10.690 --> 37:11.710]  We need more country music.
[37:12.150 --> 37:13.730]  Is there a country music station in this city?
[37:13.770 --> 37:14.190]  No, there isn't.
[37:14.230 --> 37:15.490]  This could be the next country station.
[37:15.710 --> 37:16.310]  There is a country station.
[37:16.570 --> 37:17.110]  No, there isn't.
[37:17.470 --> 37:18.390]  It's Y-107.
[37:18.590 --> 37:18.810]  Where?
[37:19.030 --> 37:20.550]  Where the hell is Y-107?
[37:20.810 --> 37:21.310]  It's up north.
[37:21.570 --> 37:22.670]  Yeah, it's not in New York City.
[37:22.670 --> 37:24.790]  There's no country music station here in New York City.
[37:26.150 --> 37:27.390]  If there was, I know about it.
[37:27.390 --> 37:29.070]  New York City is a pretty small place, though.
[37:29.210 --> 37:33.550]  I mean, you can put a stick outside the city and still can call it a New York City station.
[37:33.710 --> 37:34.250]  70s music.
[37:34.330 --> 37:35.390]  Are there any 70s music anywhere?
[37:36.370 --> 37:36.850]  No.
[37:37.330 --> 37:38.670]  105-1, I think.
[37:39.230 --> 37:43.990]  I think they play 70s occasionally, but it's not solely 70s or soul.
[37:44.110 --> 37:44.650]  How about that?
[37:44.870 --> 37:51.250]  There's all kinds of musical formats that you could blanket an entire frequency with and claim success.
[37:51.250 --> 37:51.390]  Yes.
[37:51.670 --> 37:57.230]  Or you can have a hodgepodge of all different kinds of things and call it something unique like WBAI.
[37:58.010 --> 37:58.470]  You know?
[37:59.130 --> 38:00.510]  But it's interesting...
[38:00.510 --> 38:01.730]  Sorry, I didn't turn your mic on.
[38:01.930 --> 38:04.190]  It's interesting that you don't hear these formats.
[38:04.190 --> 38:08.670]  You just hear, on a whole bunch of stations, the one or two formats that are the most popular at that moment.
[38:08.890 --> 38:10.730]  Or that they claim are the most popular.
[38:10.850 --> 38:14.490]  Because, you know, how does a song become a hit if you never hear it?
[38:14.850 --> 38:16.830]  You know, somebody has to say, this will be a hit.
[38:16.970 --> 38:17.830]  Then they play it.
[38:17.830 --> 38:19.770]  Then people say, hey, I know that song because I heard it.
[38:20.030 --> 38:21.630]  But what about the ones that don't get played?
[38:21.790 --> 38:25.590]  No, the record companies go to the radio stations and say, this is going to be a hit.
[38:25.670 --> 38:28.690]  And the radio station says, ah, well, I don't like it that too much.
[38:28.830 --> 38:32.710]  And they say, hey, we'll give you a bunch of free trips and stuff to give away on the air.
[38:32.710 --> 38:34.430]  And they go, damn, that's a hit.
[38:34.550 --> 38:35.510]  Let's play it a whole bunch.
[38:35.670 --> 38:35.890]  Thanks.
[38:37.430 --> 38:39.690]  And it's all legal because that's not payable.
[38:40.470 --> 38:44.950]  You can also buy four-minute commercials on a lot of radio stations and insert a song there.
[38:45.850 --> 38:45.990]  Hmm.
[38:47.550 --> 38:49.570]  Well, let's not think about that.
[38:50.290 --> 39:00.110]  Let's just think about this place and how we can keep it going and make sure that we don't have our agendas derailed any further than they already are.
[39:01.110 --> 39:05.190]  I'd like to be talking about, you know, hacker-related issues and technology-related issues.
[39:05.330 --> 39:14.450]  But, you know, it would be kind of stupid to do that if we weren't around next week to continue the conversation because we didn't focus on the lions at the door, you know?
[39:14.690 --> 39:15.370]  So, uh...
[39:15.370 --> 39:18.970]  What would we do without our daily dose of Isaac's fundamentalist banter?
[39:21.130 --> 39:21.870]  You'd miss it.
[39:21.930 --> 39:22.310]  That's what you mean.
[39:22.310 --> 39:23.050]  I sure would.
[39:23.110 --> 39:23.930]  I would definitely miss it.
[39:24.030 --> 39:27.310]  I sit by the radio and just drink myself silly to dull the pain.
[39:30.110 --> 39:31.990]  Oh, there's Isaac talking about Chad's again.
[39:32.150 --> 39:32.370]  Yep.
[39:32.370 --> 39:32.650]  Damn it.
[39:33.490 --> 39:34.610]  My good old buddy Chad.
[39:34.830 --> 39:35.590]  I've got some, uh...
[39:35.590 --> 39:36.650]  From the country of the same name.
[39:36.750 --> 39:37.670]  Who's pretty pregnant.
[39:37.890 --> 39:39.810]  I've got some listener mail and, uh...
[39:39.810 --> 39:40.790]  We'll get to that in a little bit.
[39:40.930 --> 39:41.790]  I want to take some phone calls.
[39:41.990 --> 39:42.170]  What do you got?
[39:42.290 --> 39:43.730]  Oh, we got mail of all sorts.
[39:43.970 --> 39:44.310]  But, uh...
[39:44.310 --> 39:48.410]  You know, we only have an hour, so let's take some phone calls and see what's on people's minds.
[39:48.430 --> 39:51.090]  Any questions, any suggestions, things like that.
[39:51.750 --> 39:53.250]  We're here to, uh...
[39:53.250 --> 39:53.610]  To listen.
[39:54.190 --> 39:54.690]  Good evening.
[39:54.810 --> 39:55.170]  You're on the air.
[39:56.710 --> 39:57.350]  Speak up, please.
[39:57.350 --> 40:00.070]  Hi, and I'm calling from GTE land in Pennsylvania.
[40:00.790 --> 40:03.190]  Then you have absolutely no idea what we're talking about, do you?
[40:03.290 --> 40:05.690]  And there's no reason to continue this conversation any further.
[40:06.050 --> 40:08.030]  But, Rebel, let me just say, if, uh...
[40:08.030 --> 40:13.290]  We don't hear your voice again this year, meaning the rest of December, we'll let you back on in January.
[40:13.570 --> 40:17.610]  And for those who haven't heard, it's a long story, but that's the way it has to be.
[40:17.610 --> 40:17.850]  We're not going to it.
[40:18.070 --> 40:19.050]  That's the way it has to be.
[40:19.150 --> 40:20.670]  Hopefully he won't violate this immediately.
[40:20.670 --> 40:21.990]  If he does, then that offer's gone.
[40:22.450 --> 40:23.030]  We try.
[40:23.170 --> 40:23.810]  We try to be reasonable.
[40:23.830 --> 40:24.550]  Do you have a stay of protection or something?
[40:24.630 --> 40:25.830]  You can't get within 50 feet of you?
[40:26.970 --> 40:30.510]  I wish you could block people, you know, not phone numbers, but people.
[40:30.810 --> 40:33.050]  If there's a way to do that on the phone line, that would be kind of cool.
[40:33.630 --> 40:34.210]  Let's go over here.
[40:34.290 --> 40:34.530]  Good evening.
[40:34.610 --> 40:35.070]  You're on the air.
[40:35.910 --> 40:36.090]  Hello?
[40:36.450 --> 40:37.030]  Yeah, speak up.
[40:37.410 --> 40:38.470]  Sorry about the bad signal.
[40:38.670 --> 40:39.470]  Anyway, uh...
[40:39.470 --> 40:40.970]  What in the world are you calling on?
[40:41.590 --> 40:42.730]  I don't want to answer that.
[40:42.830 --> 40:44.510]  No, I'm on a cell phone.
[40:44.650 --> 40:46.130]  I won't even tell who I am, but...
[40:46.130 --> 40:48.130]  You sound like a robot from Epsilon 3.
[40:48.130 --> 41:04.890]  Yeah, putting in Hacker Stuff and Radio Defense, who controls the streaming if they shut off the two aspects of the station as a visitor is the studio and the transmitter.
[41:05.130 --> 41:05.470]  Right.
[41:05.470 --> 41:07.590]  And you also stream on the web.
[41:07.850 --> 41:28.270]  So, like we did at the IMC in L.A., you put programming, stream it onto a website, and if some rebels choose to take that signal or that web content and put it out on a transmitter, that's their own business.
[41:28.270 --> 41:37.530]  So, there's a possibility of maintaining a web-based B.A.I., whether it's on the B.A.I.
[41:37.690 --> 41:38.730]  side or some other side.
[41:38.930 --> 41:39.650]  Yes, Red Leader.
[41:40.070 --> 41:42.310]  Yes, well, okay, before this goes any further...
[41:42.310 --> 41:42.810]  I thought it was 5.
[41:42.890 --> 41:43.710]  I thought it was Epsilon 7.
[41:43.730 --> 41:45.370]  I feel like we're talking to the Terminator or something.
[41:46.030 --> 41:46.690]  Come in, Red Leader.
[41:47.630 --> 41:55.370]  Basically, yes, this is a very important situation that the cyborg is bringing up.
[41:55.370 --> 42:10.270]  And what we have are people, literally, that have radios tuned to this radio station who encode the signal and other people who take that signal that they generate and transmit it over the net.
[42:10.670 --> 42:12.810]  So, we rely on those people.
[42:13.070 --> 42:20.950]  They're very valuable to us, and we thank them for all the attention they give to the radio station and make that possible.
[42:22.070 --> 42:28.750]  So, if something were to happen to the radio station, you would hear it just as it was over the FM radio, because that takes place outside the studios.
[42:28.910 --> 42:29.950]  That takes place in all different places.
[42:30.770 --> 42:32.030]  We need more people, too.
[42:32.510 --> 42:38.790]  And if you're interested in helping out, please email OTH at 2600.com so we can set up additional streams.
[42:38.930 --> 42:40.370]  Right now, we have an additional stream going.
[42:40.810 --> 42:44.130]  We also have the stream at WBAI.org so people can listen.
[42:44.130 --> 42:46.610]  Although, I was listening yesterday, and it got full.
[42:46.790 --> 42:49.570]  So, that means a lot of people are connecting.
[42:50.470 --> 42:57.030]  It was also very interesting because there are more than one Pacifica station that's on the net in this way.
[42:57.330 --> 42:59.630]  KPFA, as I mentioned before, is on the net.
[42:59.730 --> 43:00.930]  I was listening to their news yesterday.
[43:01.090 --> 43:01.730]  It was great.
[43:01.810 --> 43:03.490]  One room in my house, I had KPFA on.
[43:03.530 --> 43:04.610]  The other one, I had BAI on.
[43:04.950 --> 43:06.370]  I didn't have a radio anyplace.
[43:07.090 --> 43:09.810]  So, you can keep track of what's happening.
[43:09.950 --> 43:12.230]  Lots of times, other stations are reporting on things when we're not.
[43:12.950 --> 43:18.670]  So, this is a situation where you need to pretty much pay attention and see when things are happening.
[43:18.810 --> 43:23.210]  There's also IndyMedia, www.indymedia.org.
[43:23.450 --> 43:28.130]  They have a bunch of stories about the situation, and they're being updated almost every hour.
[43:28.610 --> 43:37.750]  So, as things change, you'll be able to tune in there as well, especially if there's something going on in our airwaves that we can't control, which hopefully won't come to that.
[43:37.750 --> 43:46.970]  The New York IndyMedia has been talking about, for a while, having a 24-hour audio stream, and they were going to do a test of that this Thursday.
[43:47.170 --> 43:51.690]  So, more information should be on their website, nyc.indymedia.org.
[43:51.850 --> 43:55.010]  Yeah, no reason why we can't expand alternative media coverage as well.
[43:55.810 --> 43:57.090]  All right, let's go to another phone call.
[43:57.350 --> 43:58.270]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[43:59.970 --> 44:00.330]  Hello?
[44:00.570 --> 44:01.130]  Yes, go ahead, sorry.
[44:01.450 --> 44:03.030]  Yeah, can I speak to you up there, please?
[44:03.550 --> 44:05.770]  Well, when I'm not on the air, I guess you probably can.
[44:05.770 --> 44:07.410]  This is called a radio show.
[44:07.810 --> 44:11.130]  Let's just stop the radio station for a minute while I take a phone call.
[44:11.850 --> 44:12.870]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[44:15.310 --> 44:16.590]  I got everybody angry.
[44:16.810 --> 44:17.650]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[44:17.930 --> 44:18.370]  Yeah, hi.
[44:18.650 --> 44:19.030]  How are you doing?
[44:19.330 --> 44:23.210]  Yeah, a couple quick comments and then a concrete suggestion.
[44:23.490 --> 44:23.710]  Okay.
[44:24.710 --> 44:28.850]  You said it would be a good idea to go country-western.
[44:28.850 --> 44:31.050]  Well, maybe Trent Lott could be the emcee.
[44:31.570 --> 44:36.750]  And you could have Jesse Helms mimicking being in the conservative Burrow of Ives.
[44:37.370 --> 44:38.790]  That could be a lot of fun.
[44:39.510 --> 44:44.310]  And you could probably trot out Minnie Berry there.
[44:44.770 --> 44:45.570]  At any rate...
[44:45.570 --> 44:46.470]  Get to the concrete thing.
[44:46.570 --> 44:47.930]  Okay, the concrete thing, sorry.
[44:50.810 --> 44:57.230]  The legal aspects of the case are being taken care of by the lawyers who represent us, right?
[44:57.230 --> 44:58.570]  Which case are we talking about?
[44:58.770 --> 45:01.470]  I understand there are several cases against Pacifica.
[45:01.590 --> 45:04.390]  I'm not exactly familiar with the extent.
[45:04.750 --> 45:08.530]  Yes, there are listener lawsuits against Pacifica for doing the kinds of things that they're doing.
[45:08.730 --> 45:18.250]  And do they include removing the board and perhaps having a new selection, a new system to select board members?
[45:18.250 --> 45:26.830]  And I would imagine that one of the main issues is that Pacifica is not living up to its mandate.
[45:28.090 --> 45:31.310]  Under its original mandate that it's supposed to function.
[45:31.670 --> 45:31.790]  Right.
[45:31.790 --> 45:38.910]  Namely to permit free-form radio to exist.
[45:39.190 --> 45:41.410]  But the concrete suggestion...
[45:41.410 --> 45:41.910]  Okay.
[45:42.750 --> 45:46.890]  Did this wash woman come on this morning from 7 to 9?
[45:47.070 --> 45:47.830]  No, she did not.
[45:47.830 --> 45:52.390]  She was supposed to come on and answer questions from listeners between 7 and 9 this morning.
[45:52.390 --> 45:53.870]  And I don't know what happened.
[45:54.050 --> 45:54.590]  She can doubt.
[45:55.050 --> 45:55.650]  Well, I don't know.
[45:55.730 --> 45:58.030]  I don't want to draw conclusions or make assumptions.
[45:58.030 --> 46:01.490]  But all I know is that they were expecting her call on wake-up call this morning.
[46:01.670 --> 46:02.930]  And it just never materialized.
[46:02.930 --> 46:04.310]  I had to stay up until 9 a.m.
[46:04.330 --> 46:06.750]  in the morning to find out she wasn't going to call in.
[46:06.930 --> 46:08.110]  Stay up until 9 a.m.?
[46:08.110 --> 46:09.190]  Yeah, I stayed up until 9 a.m.
[46:09.190 --> 46:10.130]  That's the only way I could do it.
[46:10.350 --> 46:11.630]  And then you sleep during the day.
[46:11.730 --> 46:11.870]  Yeah.
[46:12.250 --> 46:12.350]  Yeah.
[46:12.710 --> 46:13.570]  What, you got a problem with that?
[46:13.650 --> 46:14.110]  No, dude.
[46:14.570 --> 46:15.630]  That's my lifestyle, right?
[46:15.750 --> 46:16.170]  No problem.
[46:16.230 --> 46:18.270]  Anyway, the point is she didn't call this morning.
[46:22.390 --> 46:23.930]  Maybe you'll hear something tomorrow.
[46:24.150 --> 46:25.550]  Keep listening to the radio station.
[46:25.670 --> 46:26.670]  It's the only way you're going to find out.
[46:26.830 --> 46:27.710]  Let's make the concrete now.
[46:27.910 --> 46:28.430]  Yes, go ahead.
[46:28.610 --> 46:28.830]  Okay.
[46:28.910 --> 46:30.430]  So there are two aspects to this thing.
[46:30.510 --> 46:32.430]  The legal aspects are being taken care of.
[46:32.530 --> 46:41.330]  The other aspect is the public opinion, public will type of thing, listener will, staff will.
[46:41.690 --> 46:47.190]  Now, Pacifica wants to make these changes, whatever the changes are.
[46:48.750 --> 47:00.450]  And they base their rationale, I would assume, that it's good for free speech radio, or it's good for the listeners of free speech radio.
[47:00.590 --> 47:01.910]  Is that not the rationale?
[47:02.550 --> 47:07.310]  You're referring to the alternative network that's popped up out of Pacifica Reporters, free speech radio?
[47:07.530 --> 47:09.990]  No, I'm talking about the Pacifica Foundation.
[47:10.190 --> 47:10.430]  Okay.
[47:10.650 --> 47:16.030]  The things that they're doing, they must be based on some type of rationale.
[47:16.030 --> 47:20.630]  Well, that's what we were trying to find out before, is what exactly they were basing it on.
[47:21.490 --> 47:22.510]  You know what I mean specifically?
[47:22.790 --> 47:34.930]  I mean, just generally speaking, the general rationale of anything they do, they manipulate in the station, would seem logically to, could be only to improve free speech radio.
[47:35.150 --> 47:41.810]  Well, you're assuming that free speech is on the top of their agenda, and a lot of us are having extreme doubts that that is what's driving them.
[47:41.810 --> 47:51.230]  It's a profit motive, it's a ratings game, you don't really know, especially if there's no dialogue back and forth, you have no way of knowing.
[47:51.250 --> 47:55.010]  But isn't the charter specifically to promote free speech radio?
[47:55.130 --> 47:55.370]  Yeah.
[47:56.030 --> 47:59.370]  But I don't want to tell you what they're doing in the Pacifica charter down there.
[47:59.490 --> 48:04.270]  No, I'm talking about the legal charter that they are supposed to be functioning under.
[48:04.390 --> 48:07.850]  Not what they're doing, not what their real motivations are.
[48:07.850 --> 48:08.710]  I know where you're going.
[48:09.070 --> 48:09.330]  Okay?
[48:09.710 --> 48:15.750]  But that is what they are empowered to do, legally, correct?
[48:15.970 --> 48:16.150]  Right.
[48:16.270 --> 48:19.070]  And Lou Hill would be rolling in his grave right now if he knew what they were doing.
[48:19.130 --> 48:19.430]  Absolutely.
[48:19.750 --> 48:22.090]  My concrete suggestion is this.
[48:23.690 --> 48:26.670]  Obviously, the staff is quite united at this point.
[48:28.110 --> 48:32.210]  Obviously, the listening public is quite united, I'm sure.
[48:32.210 --> 48:39.290]  And obviously, the actual subscribers to the station are overwhelmingly united.
[48:39.810 --> 48:46.550]  So why not send proxies out to the subscribers?
[48:47.170 --> 49:02.990]  Each and every subscriber gets a proxy and sent out by an impartial source, so this whatever, whatever, and let the subscribers vote their will.
[49:03.990 --> 49:04.430]  Absolutely.
[49:04.910 --> 49:14.670]  The thing is, you know, something like that, something as genuine an effort as that, requires postage to send something to all of our subscribers.
[49:14.810 --> 49:15.210]  And guess what?
[49:15.290 --> 49:19.230]  Pacifica has taken over the financial operations of the radio station.
[49:19.230 --> 49:20.910]  They did this a little while ago.
[49:21.470 --> 49:27.870]  We saw that as an ominous sign back then, and this is, you know, basically laying the groundwork for all kinds of things that they can do in the future.
[49:28.330 --> 49:37.410]  Yeah, we can mail things out to all of our subscribers, tens of thousands of them, but without control over our funds, how do we do that?
[49:37.650 --> 49:41.970]  You know, it's something that we need to get together and pitch in and actually make it happen.
[49:42.070 --> 49:43.470]  But yeah, it's essential.
[49:43.470 --> 49:44.130]  I agree with you.
[49:44.290 --> 49:44.870]  Let's move on.
[49:44.990 --> 49:46.530]  Let's take some other phone calls.
[49:47.350 --> 49:48.630]  Let's go over here.
[49:48.870 --> 49:49.170]  Good evening.
[49:49.270 --> 49:49.730]  You're on the air.
[49:50.890 --> 49:51.310]  Hey, Manuel.
[49:51.510 --> 49:51.950]  Yes, go ahead.
[49:52.290 --> 49:52.690]  How's it going?
[49:52.750 --> 49:53.110]  It's Alex.
[49:53.290 --> 49:53.610]  Hey, Alex.
[49:53.670 --> 49:53.930]  How are you?
[49:54.070 --> 49:55.410]  How's it going, Laszlo, Isaac?
[49:55.410 --> 49:58.230]  You got a funky echo going there, dude.
[49:58.610 --> 49:58.890]  Oh, yeah.
[49:59.150 --> 49:59.590]  Hold on.
[49:59.650 --> 50:01.110]  Let me just pull over, actually.
[50:01.110 --> 50:02.070]  I'm in the car.
[50:02.190 --> 50:03.770]  You're not in Suffolk County, are you?
[50:04.270 --> 50:05.710]  Yeah, don't drive in Suffolk County.
[50:05.810 --> 50:06.490]  It's against the law.
[50:06.950 --> 50:09.070]  Not to drive, but to drive and talk on the phone.
[50:09.430 --> 50:11.850]  Yeah, well, it is in Germany, I think, isn't it?
[50:12.710 --> 50:13.070]  Maybe.
[50:13.270 --> 50:13.470]  I don't know.
[50:13.550 --> 50:14.090]  I haven't done that lately.
[50:14.090 --> 50:16.350]  Germany, the place where they have roads with no speed limits?
[50:16.530 --> 50:16.750]  Sure.
[50:18.350 --> 50:19.190]  Yeah, that's true.
[50:20.150 --> 50:20.830]  What's on your mind?
[50:21.710 --> 50:26.050]  I just wanted to say, it's pretty frightening what's going on with Pacifica.
[50:26.530 --> 50:28.510]  Didn't something happen with Amy Goodman as well?
[50:28.990 --> 50:29.510]  Yeah, okay.
[50:29.610 --> 50:31.030]  That's an interesting situation as well.
[50:31.170 --> 50:35.910]  Amy Goodman, as you know, interviewed President Clinton a couple of weeks ago, actually a month ago on Election Day.
[50:35.910 --> 50:36.870]  She's done other things, too.
[50:36.990 --> 50:37.310]  Oh, yeah.
[50:37.770 --> 50:39.370]  I was listing the things, all right?
[50:41.050 --> 50:43.330]  She got beaten up pretty badly in Indonesia.
[50:43.490 --> 50:51.310]  She also ambushed George Bush, you know, the other one, interviewed him after he was elected, or maybe it was while he was running, I'm not sure.
[50:51.510 --> 50:53.370]  But she's been very active.
[50:53.970 --> 51:00.490]  Nobody can deny this as far as reporting worldwide events, traveling all over the place, getting the stories that no one else has gotten.
[51:02.130 --> 51:13.930]  And for that, she was rewarded with a threat of termination because Pacifica wanted to be able to approve or disapprove of her material a week or so in advance.
[51:14.330 --> 51:17.870]  And, you know, I was talking to Amy about this a few weeks ago before Election Day.
[51:18.010 --> 51:25.750]  One of the things that she was completely frustrated by was, how am I supposed to tell them what I'm going to be saying on Election Day when I don't know who's going to win?
[51:25.750 --> 51:28.870]  You know, you tell me who's going to win, then I can tell you what the program is going to be about.
[51:29.290 --> 51:42.050]  You know, it's all kinds of bizarre demands like this that she has to, you know, tie up her time with paperwork and bureaucracy instead of going out and being a good reporter, which is what she's been doing all these years.
[51:42.630 --> 51:45.430]  She was forced to get rid of her staff of volunteers.
[51:45.750 --> 51:47.630]  She's not allowed to have any volunteers working for her.
[51:47.850 --> 51:51.970]  These, you know, basically ridiculous commands that are being issued.
[51:52.050 --> 51:52.830]  I mean, if you ever had...
[51:52.830 --> 51:58.050]  How many of you had jobs with really, like, you know, annoying managers micromanaging what you do?
[51:58.310 --> 51:58.870]  You know?
[51:59.610 --> 52:00.570]  That's what this is.
[52:00.670 --> 52:01.550]  That's what it's turning into.
[52:01.990 --> 52:03.190]  It gets in the way.
[52:03.370 --> 52:05.170]  It prevents you from doing the things that you want to do.
[52:05.270 --> 52:18.570]  Now, one thing that I can say here at this radio station, I've had lots of constructive advice and criticism on the radio show from people here, but nobody has stood over me and said, do this 20 minutes into the hour.
[52:18.570 --> 52:23.570]  Or you have to, you know, break and play this particular thing and make sure that you address this particular subject.
[52:23.850 --> 52:27.150]  You know, I've never been micromanaged or pointed in a certain direction.
[52:27.150 --> 52:37.290]  I've always been given the dignity that, you know, a programmer should be given the leeway to do the radio program the way that they see fit.
[52:37.530 --> 52:39.790]  And if it's working, then it's obviously working.
[52:39.950 --> 52:46.990]  Now, that's not the way it works with, you know, with management from afar telling you how to do your job when they don't even listen.
[52:48.030 --> 52:48.870]  Pretty frightening.
[52:49.170 --> 52:49.550]  It is.
[52:49.550 --> 52:51.570]  All indicative of something very bad, I think.
[52:51.810 --> 52:52.890]  Frightening, but also typical.
[52:53.270 --> 52:56.070]  I think there's one other thing I wanted to mention that was sort of frightening.
[52:56.250 --> 53:00.750]  And it could mean nothing or it could mean something very bad, but it's frightening nonetheless.
[53:01.730 --> 53:08.230]  You know, I've been running VerizonEatsPoop.com ever since all that Verizon stuff went down, you know, with them trying to sue people.
[53:08.410 --> 53:08.590]  Right.
[53:08.810 --> 53:12.710]  Over the last month and a half, I've been getting a lot of hits.
[53:12.710 --> 53:19.530]  So I was going through the logs, and there's been a lot of hits from USDOJ.gov, like pretty frequently.
[53:19.710 --> 53:22.290]  They're one of the most frequent visitors to the site.
[53:22.790 --> 53:25.850]  And they also do arbitration suits, just like WIPO.
[53:25.970 --> 53:33.290]  And I think you can go to the USDOJ if what you're trying to arbitrate is solely within the United States.
[53:33.910 --> 53:36.990]  So I'm thinking this might be something bad.
[53:37.190 --> 53:40.670]  Well, if it turns into something bad, obviously we're going to talk about it here.
[53:41.770 --> 53:50.550]  That leads right back to what's been going on over this last year where we've had a massive amount of legal problems, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits.
[53:50.970 --> 53:55.910]  Had this place not been here, had this radio show not been here, a lot of people would never have found out about it.
[53:56.870 --> 54:02.070]  And that's where you really see the trickle-down effect of messing with a place like BAI.
[54:02.250 --> 54:05.650]  You know, there's all kinds of injustice out there.
[54:05.650 --> 54:11.190]  It needs to be reported, it needs to be revealed, and WBAI has been doing that over the years.
[54:11.690 --> 54:15.610]  It's important, it's vital that this place remain in that position.
[54:15.790 --> 54:17.810]  How dare you criticize Verizon, though?
[54:18.170 --> 54:18.690]  I think you should...
[54:18.690 --> 54:20.350]  They're a real notable corporation.
[54:20.350 --> 54:22.510]  I think you should be sued into the ground.
[54:23.250 --> 54:25.590]  I might be, so you might have your wish there, though.
[54:25.650 --> 54:27.730]  How dare you criticize the phone company?
[54:28.310 --> 54:35.910]  Well, you know, it might just be a bunch of FBI agents who are really interested in scatological cuisine while engaging in mobile communication.
[54:35.910 --> 54:36.570]  You never know.
[54:36.750 --> 54:36.850]  Right.
[54:37.050 --> 54:40.370]  And Jack Valente just wants to be able to watch DVDs.
[54:40.930 --> 54:43.650]  What I was thinking about doing it, I don't know if it would work or not.
[54:43.650 --> 54:46.890]  Maybe somebody else would be able to help me out with it.
[54:46.990 --> 55:00.690]  And I think it would be pretty funny if you start up a not-for-profit corporation, put all these websites as an asset of the not-for-profit corporation, then when you get sued for criticizing them, these corporations that are trying to sue you are suing another corporation,
[55:00.730 --> 55:10.030]  and you're only liable, as far as I know, for the amount of money that you invest into a corporation, which would be $15 from DOTS due to registerverizoneedspoop.com.
[55:10.070 --> 55:11.730]  I've got something even better than that.
[55:11.830 --> 55:12.810]  Move it to the Bahamas.
[55:13.090 --> 55:13.450]  There you go.
[55:13.490 --> 55:22.190]  Move it to a server in the Bahamas, because just like all the corporations are doing now and moving their central offices to the Bahamas and places like that so they don't have to pay taxes...
[55:22.190 --> 55:22.750]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[55:22.890 --> 55:24.470]  You'd be set, dude.
[55:24.470 --> 55:27.530]  But this WIPO thing, it's like international.
[55:27.870 --> 55:28.430]  Yeah, WIPO.
[55:28.590 --> 55:29.490]  You can just take it away from WIPO.
[55:29.630 --> 55:30.910]  I always called it WIPO, but never mind.
[55:30.990 --> 55:39.850]  The point is moving offshore is not the answer to avoid legal scrapes, because you need to fix it here.
[55:39.970 --> 55:41.410]  I went to Canada during NAMM.
[55:41.970 --> 55:43.430]  Well, we'll get into that on another show.
[55:43.490 --> 55:44.330]  We only have five minutes left.
[55:44.390 --> 55:45.250]  I want to get to some more phone calls.
[55:45.350 --> 55:46.190]  Thanks, Alex, for that call.
[55:47.710 --> 55:49.170]  We're going to have to talk later, buddy.
[55:49.370 --> 55:50.810]  Yeah, you talk over a beer later.
[55:50.870 --> 55:51.150]  Good evening.
[55:51.230 --> 55:51.870]  You're on the air.
[55:51.870 --> 55:53.290]  Oh, hi there.
[55:53.490 --> 55:54.450]  Thanks for taking my call.
[55:54.690 --> 55:58.770]  I quickly wanted to first address what another caller said about the lawsuits.
[55:58.990 --> 56:07.710]  And just so people, if they don't know, that, of course, the lawsuits need a lot of money in order to continue, just like BAI always needs a lot of money.
[56:07.830 --> 56:07.950]  Right.
[56:07.950 --> 56:15.010]  And so people can go to www.wbai.net and find out about that.
[56:15.210 --> 56:16.370]  But my question is this.
[56:16.450 --> 56:18.270]  Tell me if I'm stupid or naive, okay?
[56:18.790 --> 56:19.790]  What is that, a choice?
[56:19.970 --> 56:21.030]  Oh, trust me, I will.
[56:21.190 --> 56:22.550]  Can we pick something else, hopefully?
[56:24.250 --> 56:29.830]  Knowing, following this for a long time and knowing what happened at KPSA, I often wondered about this.
[56:29.950 --> 56:33.150]  What if Valerie just said, I'm not going to go?
[56:33.310 --> 56:41.010]  And what if everybody who works at BAI and all the volunteers said, yeah, and we're going to stand here, too, and make sure she doesn't go?
[56:41.110 --> 56:42.510]  That's pretty much where it is right now.
[56:42.590 --> 56:43.010]  Oh, okay.
[56:43.210 --> 56:45.270]  I mean, can they, like, bring in police or something?
[56:45.270 --> 56:46.450]  I mean, they can.
[56:46.650 --> 56:46.790]  Sure.
[56:47.090 --> 57:01.610]  Yeah, and that's what they've done in Berkeley, and that's why we're very concerned here because, you know, as I mentioned, a lot of people have had differences with Valerie on the running of the station, but we know that she is somebody who will stand up for the station as it is and won't take any crap.
[57:01.790 --> 57:13.970]  And that's why we are united to keep her in her position unless she decides to leave or unless, you know, people at the radio station decide that, you know, she's no longer astuted for the job or something like that.
[57:13.970 --> 57:25.150]  One thing we will not tolerate is some far-off entity deciding who stays and who goes, and that's why, despite any differences, we are united, and we are going to stand up to this.
[57:25.310 --> 57:39.030]  See, I thought KPFA, because, as you said, it was a smaller building and such that they could bring in their armed guards and all of that, but so I guess even though, you know, Pacifica is elsewhere, they can still, they have the authority to bring in police and remove somebody.
[57:39.030 --> 57:42.490]  The most likely charge would be criminal trespass.
[57:42.830 --> 57:43.950]  They own the property, right?
[57:44.010 --> 57:47.310]  And they've done, they've done things like this, you know, other radio stations do this all the time.
[57:47.450 --> 57:49.070]  They padlock doors when they change formats.
[57:49.350 --> 57:51.610]  It could happen here very, very easily.
[57:52.150 --> 57:53.750]  It's something that we have to be very vigilant.
[57:53.910 --> 57:57.750]  You know, fortunately, we still have a 50,000 watt radio station we can talk to people on.
[57:57.970 --> 57:58.090]  Exactly.
[57:58.290 --> 58:01.350]  That's why it's extremely important to talk about this.
[58:01.450 --> 58:03.710]  In case anyone's wondering, why are you wasting time talking about it?
[58:03.710 --> 58:06.970]  That's why you have to, you have to not let that go.
[58:07.210 --> 58:07.350]  Yeah.
[58:07.510 --> 58:08.410]  So it's really three things.
[58:08.550 --> 58:13.630]  People have to know, they have to spread the word, they have to come out and demonstrate when needed and contribute to the lawsuit.
[58:13.890 --> 58:14.130]  Right.
[58:14.250 --> 58:14.810]  Those three things.
[58:14.990 --> 58:15.070]  Right.
[58:15.230 --> 58:20.910]  Keep listening, stay in touch on the net, know what's going on, spread the word in case anything is happening.
[58:21.670 --> 58:23.790]  And, you know, be always vigilant.
[58:24.010 --> 58:37.070]  You know, I have to say, the fact that somebody was supposed to show up yesterday to replace Valerie and they did not, the fact that the executive director was supposed to be on the radio today and she was not, tells me that they, either they're having cold feet or they're really,
[58:37.070 --> 58:41.990]  you know, making alternative plans of some sort and they're worried about our reaction.
[58:42.150 --> 58:48.530]  Maybe, maybe they weren't expecting us to so blatantly stand up and speak our minds.
[58:48.690 --> 58:50.010]  Well, you know, this is freedom of speech.
[58:50.150 --> 58:51.210]  This is WBAI.
[58:51.370 --> 58:52.730]  These are devoted people.
[58:53.570 --> 58:55.550]  We're not going to be pushed around like this.
[58:55.650 --> 58:56.970]  And I don't think our listeners will be either.
[58:57.130 --> 58:58.050]  And they're bullies.
[58:58.170 --> 58:59.770]  I mean, everyone should know that they're bullies.
[58:59.770 --> 59:03.670]  And the intent, another caller was mentioned, the intent is to stifle free speech.
[59:03.830 --> 59:05.070]  I mean, it really doesn't go beyond that.
[59:05.170 --> 59:06.630]  They want to end free speech.
[59:07.750 --> 59:11.050]  That's what it boils down to, whether or not that's written down on their agenda.
[59:11.130 --> 59:12.390]  That is, that's the effect.
[59:12.690 --> 59:13.830]  Listen, we're out of time.
[59:13.910 --> 59:18.730]  But, you know, this conversation will be continuing throughout the night, throughout the days on other radio shows.
[59:18.970 --> 59:21.590]  And that's why I encourage people to stay tuned to the station.
[59:23.130 --> 59:25.550]  www.wbai.org has one link.
[59:26.630 --> 59:28.930]  www.2600.com has a second link.
[59:29.110 --> 59:33.050]  Hopefully, we'll be able to add more and keep people listening around the clock.
[59:33.190 --> 59:39.010]  There'll be all kinds of discussions, more opportunities for you to call in and voice your concerns and just plan this thing out.
[59:39.290 --> 59:40.550]  We have a radio station.
[59:40.650 --> 59:41.250]  Let's use it.
[59:41.350 --> 59:51.630]  And let's keep it, keep it just the way it is so that we can, we can do more of such things in the future and bring you all kinds of news you will not hear anyplace else.
[59:51.990 --> 59:53.030]  I want to thank you guys for coming in.
[59:53.610 --> 59:55.010]  Laszlo, Mike, Isaac.
[59:55.110 --> 59:55.730]  I'm here all the time.
[59:57.770 --> 59:59.950]  And we'll be back, hopefully we'll be back next week.
[01:00:00.070 --> 01:00:00.730]  What do you think, Laszlo?
[01:00:00.970 --> 01:00:02.970]  Dude, I'm coming next week and we're going to talk about computers.
[01:00:03.170 --> 01:00:04.510]  Why don't we just stay until next week?
[01:00:04.590 --> 01:00:05.650]  That way they can't kick us out.
[01:00:06.350 --> 01:00:06.930]  Sit in.
[01:00:07.190 --> 01:00:07.410]  Yeah.
[01:00:07.890 --> 01:00:11.030]  That's happened before at this radio station for other reasons.
[01:00:11.170 --> 01:00:12.290]  Oh, not this studio, the other one.
[01:00:12.930 --> 01:00:14.590]  Not even the other one, the one before that.
[01:00:14.770 --> 01:00:14.970]  Oh, before that.
[01:00:14.970 --> 01:00:24.710]  Yeah, so this station has a history of things like that, but I don't think it's ever been quite this worrisome, because the opposition has never been this powerful.
[01:00:25.150 --> 01:00:26.250]  I don't think it'll come to that.
[01:00:26.330 --> 01:00:26.830]  I hope not.
[01:00:26.910 --> 01:00:28.170]  We can put money down on it if you want.
[01:00:28.290 --> 01:00:28.470]  Okay.
[01:00:28.790 --> 01:00:30.050]  All right, we'll be back again next week.
[01:00:30.190 --> 01:00:30.770]  I just know it.
[01:00:30.850 --> 01:00:31.070]  Good night.
[01:00:31.810 --> 01:00:32.130]  Good night.
[01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:30.520]  To the homeless and other needy folks, this year we'll be working in all five boroughs of New York City and in Newark, New Jersey.
[01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:31.900]  You want to help?
[01:01:32.140 --> 01:01:32.900]  Cops and toys?
[01:01:33.200 --> 01:01:33.700]  Food?
[01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:34.840]  Suggestions?
[01:01:35.160 --> 01:01:39.340]  Well, get in touch with us by the winter solstice, December 21st.
[01:01:39.340 --> 01:01:45.600]  Call Brother Shine at area code 212-209-2990.
[01:01:45.600 --> 01:01:56.440]  That's 212-209-2990 to help WBAI and friends with the annual toy and food drive for the year 2000.
[01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:11.920]  I've been thinking about how to talk about...