[00:06.250 --> 00:10.090]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:11.230 --> 00:15.530]  I cut myself all shaven, now I can't make a car.
[00:36.520 --> 00:37.840]  Hi there, can anyone hear me?
[00:41.640 --> 00:42.900]  Yes, sir, we can hear you.
[00:43.460 --> 00:44.500]  Okay, that's just me.
[00:45.300 --> 00:48.480]  There you are.
[00:50.140 --> 00:51.080]  What happened before?
[00:51.320 --> 00:53.920]  I was saying I was introing the show and I heard you talk instead.
[00:53.980 --> 00:54.820]  What happened there?
[00:55.020 --> 00:55.840]  I didn't hear you intro.
[00:55.840 --> 00:58.780]  Oh, well, you must have thrown the wrong switch.
[00:58.920 --> 00:59.580]  Anyway, this is Emmanuel.
[00:59.800 --> 01:04.700]  I'm in Berlin, over here in Germany, where it's two in the morning, the end of our day.
[01:04.980 --> 01:08.980]  You guys are just beginning your day over at WBAI New York, where it's eight o'clock.
[01:10.040 --> 01:14.840]  I'm over here for the Chaos Communications Congress, and Isaac is back there in the studio.
[01:14.840 --> 01:15.620]  So is Laszlo.
[01:15.720 --> 01:16.140]  Hi, Laszlo.
[01:16.540 --> 01:16.860]  Hi.
[01:17.060 --> 01:20.540]  I might add that watching Isaac run on board is pure comedy.
[01:20.760 --> 01:21.380]  Yes, I'm sure.
[01:22.120 --> 01:23.480]  I wish I could be there for this.
[01:23.880 --> 01:25.640]  But, of course, if I was there, this would never be happening.
[01:26.300 --> 01:27.240]  But there you go.
[01:27.500 --> 01:29.400]  Tell us what happens that you're six hours ahead.
[01:30.020 --> 01:31.820]  We're six hours ahead here, yeah.
[01:32.320 --> 01:37.520]  I know it's going to happen in six hours, and you don't like it very much because it's kind of...
[01:37.520 --> 01:39.580]  Well, it's snowing very hard right here in Berlin.
[01:41.100 --> 01:44.120]  And it's just a very nice place.
[01:44.260 --> 01:45.300]  I've been here many times.
[01:45.460 --> 01:46.820]  I've been traveling all over, actually.
[01:46.820 --> 02:00.800]  I got here last Thursday, not here so much, but in Frankfurt, journeyed up to Amsterdam, hung out there for a couple of days, and then went up to Denmark, where I stayed until today, and then took a train down to here, which is where I am now.
[02:02.360 --> 02:02.900]  Where's here?
[02:02.900 --> 02:03.160]  Yeah.
[02:03.460 --> 02:04.580]  I'm always here, actually.
[02:04.720 --> 02:05.040]  Berlin.
[02:05.300 --> 02:05.520]  Berlin.
[02:05.520 --> 02:05.940]  You're in Berlin.
[02:06.120 --> 02:06.300]  Berlin right now.
[02:06.620 --> 02:08.560]  And the Chaos Communications Congress starts tomorrow.
[02:09.100 --> 02:11.000]  Now, which half of the former Berlin are you in?
[02:11.260 --> 02:12.300]  I think I'm in...
[02:12.300 --> 02:13.740]  Well, it's very far from the train station.
[02:13.740 --> 02:15.660]  I took a cab to this hotel I'm staying in.
[02:15.700 --> 02:16.840]  I think it's in the eastern part.
[02:17.380 --> 02:20.440]  Just based on the architecture, I would say it's probably in the eastern part.
[02:20.440 --> 02:22.660]  So there's no residual of the wall left at all?
[02:23.400 --> 02:23.840]  No.
[02:24.060 --> 02:26.600]  But it's funny, because the street I'm on is named...
[02:26.600 --> 02:27.840]  It's Wallstrasse.
[02:27.980 --> 02:29.540]  I think it was named after the wall.
[02:29.780 --> 02:32.180]  The street might actually be where the wall was for all I know.
[02:32.200 --> 02:33.520]  I'm going to try to find out about that.
[02:34.020 --> 02:37.160]  Now, you took a train to where you are now?
[02:37.600 --> 02:38.880]  I've taken trains everywhere.
[02:39.180 --> 02:41.800]  Let me tell you something about trains in Europe.
[02:42.980 --> 02:43.540]  They rock.
[02:43.540 --> 02:44.480]  There are so many things.
[02:44.480 --> 02:47.080]  There are so many things in Europe that just put us to shame.
[02:48.100 --> 02:49.660]  And trains are one of them.
[02:51.060 --> 02:53.500]  It's like they have an intelligence of their own.
[02:53.680 --> 03:02.880]  The whole system, the way it works, the way it interacts with distant cities, and the way every train shows up exactly when it's supposed to and leaves exactly when it's supposed to.
[03:03.280 --> 03:04.300]  It's uncanny.
[03:04.500 --> 03:05.300]  That's German precision.
[03:05.500 --> 03:08.160]  You don't need a language to understand any of this.
[03:08.260 --> 03:13.880]  In fact, I think Europeans have advanced a lot more because they're multilingual.
[03:14.560 --> 03:18.240]  There are so many different languages that it's impossible to simply say it in all different languages.
[03:18.240 --> 03:22.200]  So they have to have a pictorial way of expressing themselves.
[03:22.620 --> 03:25.180]  And I think that works very well, especially in something like a train station.
[03:25.180 --> 03:28.800]  You can go to any train station anywhere in Europe, and it works exactly the same way.
[03:29.940 --> 03:33.960]  And the trains run pretty much on schedule and get you exactly where you're supposed to go.
[03:34.080 --> 03:35.920]  There's no place you can't get in Europe by train.
[03:36.720 --> 03:38.600]  So I've had no trouble at all getting around.
[03:38.600 --> 03:39.680]  It's extremely comfortable.
[03:39.680 --> 03:41.220]  You can't tell when the trains are moving.
[03:41.220 --> 03:42.260]  They're very smooth.
[03:42.480 --> 03:43.560]  They're very fast.
[03:44.620 --> 03:45.460]  Did you ride the train?
[03:46.020 --> 03:52.780]  Because I took a train from Amsterdam to Paris, and the train had computer readouts about how fast you're going.
[03:52.960 --> 03:57.680]  And when you approach the doors to go from one train to the other, it opens like the Star Track doors.
[03:57.980 --> 03:58.420]  Like...
[03:59.040 --> 04:03.020]  Yeah, the train I was just on, in fact, is called the ICE train.
[04:03.320 --> 04:04.000]  Yeah, that one.
[04:04.040 --> 04:04.700]  I rode that one.
[04:04.840 --> 04:06.320]  It leans in the turns.
[04:06.600 --> 04:08.200]  It looks like something from outer space.
[04:08.240 --> 04:08.880]  It's awesome.
[04:09.920 --> 04:10.720]  Intercity Express.
[04:11.100 --> 04:17.900]  It makes that Acela thing from Amtrak look like a joke, because they've just been doing it so much better for so much longer.
[04:18.680 --> 04:21.020]  But actually, I took the...
[04:21.020 --> 04:22.020]  You get a program.
[04:22.560 --> 04:27.600]  When you go on a train ride, you get a little program that goes with it to describe your trip.
[04:28.420 --> 04:36.900]  And there are some things here that I think pretty much tell you the differences in the way they travel and the way we travel in trains.
[04:37.460 --> 04:40.040]  Let me just read you a few of the little things here.
[04:41.480 --> 04:45.500]  At seat service with snacks, drinks, and daily newspapers by the service crew, blah, blah, blah.
[04:45.800 --> 04:53.400]  Three radio and three ICE programs with classical music, pop music, and fairy tales are available from all seats with headphones.
[04:54.100 --> 04:56.160]  There's a car telephone in car 25.
[04:56.220 --> 04:57.560]  It's always in car 25.
[04:58.420 --> 05:00.320]  Phone cards can be bought from the service crew.
[05:00.660 --> 05:06.440]  Screens for the ICE video program at all seats in cars 26 and 27.
[05:07.160 --> 05:14.740]  Train manager's compartment, electronic timetable information desk, disabled toilet, and baby's changing table in car 25.
[05:15.900 --> 05:18.820]  I used that toilet, and it wasn't disabled, so I don't know what they're talking about there.
[05:19.720 --> 05:28.900]  Sockets for laptops at the tables in the face-to-face seating area, space for wheelchairs and parent and child compartment with children's play area in car 24.
[05:29.680 --> 05:30.560]  Now, get this.
[05:30.680 --> 05:31.320]  You'll love this one.
[05:31.660 --> 05:37.880]  Cars 21, 24, 26, and 27 are equipped with repeaters for improved mobile phone reception.
[05:38.620 --> 05:43.440]  Yes, this is little GSM repeaters on the actual train cars, so you're never out of service.
[05:43.440 --> 05:43.860]  Hmm.
[05:44.280 --> 05:45.140]  It's pretty unbelievable.
[05:45.280 --> 05:49.120]  Please do not use mobile phones in the quiet zones in cars 22 and 27.
[05:49.740 --> 05:53.360]  And finally, please keep your dog on the lead while on the train.
[05:53.580 --> 05:55.620]  You can do anything you want on those trains.
[05:55.620 --> 05:56.360]  That's what I love.
[05:56.380 --> 05:57.580]  There's, like, people smoking.
[05:57.760 --> 05:59.240]  There's, like, parties going on.
[05:59.240 --> 06:05.220]  You can bring dogs on the train, dogs on subways, dogs on trains, dogs on trams, dogs on buses.
[06:05.420 --> 06:08.160]  And the thing is, the dogs are well-behaved.
[06:08.280 --> 06:09.440]  They don't act like American dogs.
[06:09.440 --> 06:10.540]  They act like European dogs.
[06:10.620 --> 06:12.040]  They're completely quiet and calm.
[06:12.600 --> 06:13.360]  You know, it's just...
[06:13.360 --> 06:14.980]  This is not just a human thing.
[06:15.860 --> 06:17.360]  It extends to all species.
[06:18.100 --> 06:20.280]  Yeah, that's what surprised me in France, is you can...
[06:20.280 --> 06:26.260]  You would go to restaurants, very nice restaurants, and people would just stroll in with their dogs, and it would just sit under their table.
[06:26.260 --> 06:26.880]  Mm-hmm.
[06:27.000 --> 06:30.040]  I was sitting on the train today down from Copenhagen.
[06:30.040 --> 06:36.460]  I was sitting next to a guy, and I realized after about 20 minutes that he had a dog inside his briefcase.
[06:36.520 --> 06:39.440]  Not his briefcase, but a little pouch that he was holding, a little tiny dog.
[06:39.600 --> 06:41.380]  I just saw, like, the eyes coming out of...
[06:41.380 --> 06:44.960]  And it was rather scary, actually, but everyone seems to have one of those things.
[06:45.720 --> 06:57.420]  On the subject of GSM, again, that's something else that they put us to shame on, GSM being the mobile phone network that is predominantly in use in Europe and somewhat in use in the United States.
[06:57.900 --> 07:09.920]  I was able to borrow one of the World phones, which is made by Ericsson, and that allows you to use GSM companies both in the United States and over here in Europe.
[07:10.300 --> 07:11.880]  There are different frequencies.
[07:12.260 --> 07:14.520]  In the United States, we use...
[07:14.520 --> 07:17.740]  I believe it's 1,800 megahertz.
[07:18.060 --> 07:20.180]  I'm sorry, it's 1,900 megahertz we use.
[07:20.180 --> 07:26.020]  They use 1,800 megahertz in Europe, and they also use 900 megahertz in Europe.
[07:26.560 --> 07:28.880]  Now, the World phone allows you to get 800...
[07:28.880 --> 07:35.340]  I'm sorry, 900 megahertz and 1,800 megahertz, so you're able to get the United States and part of Europe.
[07:36.040 --> 07:44.920]  Now, when I first turned on the phone, I got a company in Germany called DD1, and then I got a company called DD2.
[07:45.140 --> 07:46.380]  So I got two companies.
[07:46.500 --> 07:48.040]  I was able to switch from one company to another.
[07:48.040 --> 07:52.200]  In every country I've been in, there have been two companies that I can switch back and forth.
[07:52.460 --> 07:59.900]  Now, if I had a tri-band phone, I would have a choice of four companies, two on 900 megahertz, two on 1,800 megahertz.
[08:00.120 --> 08:07.540]  In the United States, we only have 1,900 megahertz, and by some kind of weird law, we only have one company.
[08:08.260 --> 08:19.300]  You know, competition is something that we seem to have less and less of, and it's being shown how much better the system is over here when you can choose from one company and, you know, make decisions that way.
[08:20.160 --> 08:27.760]  Another problem I've had is the fact that every time I make a phone call on this system, I'm being charged $2.50 a minute by the company back in the United States.
[08:27.760 --> 08:38.680]  So if I was to call somebody a foot away from me on this phone, the company in the United States, which is VoiceStream, would be making $2.50 a minute for no reason at all because my call isn't even going to the United States.
[08:39.480 --> 08:40.800]  Well, that's just the way that is.
[08:40.940 --> 08:43.560]  They are processing your accounting information, which is a very...
[08:43.560 --> 08:46.440]  Yeah, they're doing that, but, you know, do you really think that that costs $2.50 a minute?
[08:46.440 --> 08:47.560]  Oh, it's a very expensive process.
[08:49.240 --> 08:53.160]  It's a complete ripoff and insanity, and it keeps people from using the system.
[08:53.440 --> 09:01.120]  I mean, it's the coolest thing in the world for me to be on a train, going to different countries, and being able to get phone calls from my friends on my same phone number.
[09:01.300 --> 09:05.360]  Meanwhile, if you go on Amtrak from here to Philly, your phone would be bugging.
[09:05.360 --> 09:06.820]  That's right, exactly.
[09:07.480 --> 09:08.720]  So it's a great system.
[09:08.820 --> 09:10.020]  GSM is an amazing system.
[09:10.480 --> 09:18.680]  Unfortunately, like almost everything else we get our hands on, including that and DVD and God knows what else, it's just being destroyed due to greed.
[09:19.560 --> 09:33.260]  Now, speaking of DVDs, I've been doing some interesting research on the web, and there are a couple of developments that you guys might find interesting.
[09:33.720 --> 09:36.980]  Have you heard about something called DFAST?
[09:38.740 --> 09:39.180]  DFAST?
[09:39.300 --> 09:40.580]  D-F-A-S-T.
[09:40.780 --> 09:41.020]  No.
[09:41.880 --> 09:43.020]  No one's heard of that, huh?
[09:43.140 --> 09:43.640]  Enlighten me.
[09:44.160 --> 09:44.360]  Okay.
[09:44.580 --> 09:48.480]  This comes from a Kevin Paulson article that came out on the 22nd of December.
[09:49.460 --> 09:56.440]  And for those of you who were with us during the ECSS lawsuit over the summer, well, that might be just the beginning.
[09:56.440 --> 10:05.840]  As we pretty much said, this is something that is going to repeat itself many, many times over in lots of different arenas.
[10:06.000 --> 10:07.920]  Well, now you can see just where it's going to go next.
[10:08.080 --> 10:21.700]  The cable television industry is moving ahead with a controversial plan to implement a copy protection scheme that will allow movie studios and cable providers to control what viewers are able to record off future digital cable TV networks.
[10:21.880 --> 10:36.920]  Makers of televisions, video recorders, and interactive set-top boxes who want their equipment to be compatible with the new digital cable systems will be forced to implement the patented dynamic feedback arrangement scrambling technique, known as DFAST,
[10:37.080 --> 10:47.340]  under a 42-page licensing agreement filed with the FCC last week by Cable Television Laboratories, the industry's research and development arm with support from the National Cable Television Association.
[10:48.240 --> 11:00.960]  DFAST-compliant devices would simply refuse to record digital TV broadcasts that are electronically marked, copy never, or to make a single archive copy of a program bearing the more permissive copy once mark.
[11:01.260 --> 11:11.780]  The technology may ultimately result in jarring changes to the average American's viewing habits and, of course, require them to invest in new DFAST-compliant hardware if they wish to enjoy the benefits of digital cable.
[11:12.520 --> 11:13.900]  So this is doomed to failure.
[11:14.140 --> 11:14.420]  Yes.
[11:14.600 --> 11:21.580]  Well, you know, I'd like to say that, but this is something that they're really cramming down our throats like they crammed the whole CSS thing.
[11:21.840 --> 11:23.820]  So we're not going to be able to record...
[11:23.820 --> 11:27.060]  This is going to... I won't be able to record certain shows now.
[11:27.120 --> 11:27.420]  That's right.
[11:27.600 --> 11:31.920]  If they determine that they don't want you to record it, then you won't be able to record it.
[11:32.440 --> 11:33.920]  It'll be technically impossible.
[11:34.120 --> 11:34.880]  I will point you...
[11:34.880 --> 11:38.620]  Unless another John Johansson comes along and figures out how to get around it.
[11:38.620 --> 11:39.360]  Well, that's inevitable.
[11:39.680 --> 11:42.680]  Then we have another trial and, you know, go through the whole rigmarole again.
[11:43.680 --> 11:50.000]  But basically, it's, you know, how everybody rejected Divix, the original Divix, a couple of years ago.
[11:50.240 --> 11:51.820]  This is just a bigger version of it.
[11:52.640 --> 12:04.980]  See, but, I mean, they also tried to shove digital televisions, you know, down our throat and said everybody has to upgrade and buy new TVs and all this, and no one is doing it.
[12:04.980 --> 12:05.740]  Nobody is doing it.
[12:05.740 --> 12:07.100]  Which is why I'm saying it's doomed to failure.
[12:07.100 --> 12:12.700]  Well, it still is on the books that, as of 2005, all the analog TV stations will be off the air.
[12:13.440 --> 12:16.780]  So, I don't know how they're going to get around that.
[12:16.820 --> 12:20.800]  They're now talking about giving away free set-top converters.
[12:21.000 --> 12:21.420]  Uh-huh.
[12:21.500 --> 12:33.760]  Because, I mean, there's a lot of people that, you know, either can't afford it or whatever, and they're going to lose a lot of viewers, which is going to lose advertisers.
[12:33.760 --> 12:41.540]  Well, now is the time to reject this kind of thing, because once it's implemented, it's very hard to turn the clock back.
[12:43.240 --> 12:47.580]  Now, also on the subject of DVDs, this also happened in the last week.
[12:48.120 --> 12:59.260]  The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission advised consumers to exercise caution when purchasing a DVD video player because of the restrictions that limit their ability to play imported DVDs.
[13:00.640 --> 13:05.380]  These restrictions are artificially imposed by a group of multinational film entertainment companies.
[13:05.640 --> 13:06.140]  Okay, wait a second.
[13:06.320 --> 13:07.600]  Who wrote this article?
[13:08.140 --> 13:09.180]  This is not an article.
[13:09.300 --> 13:12.040]  This is something from an Australian...
[13:12.740 --> 13:14.320]  Let me just get the...
[13:15.540 --> 13:17.300]  You know, I've got to get the exact...
[13:17.300 --> 13:24.900]  Because I'm hearing a seven-word string of, artificially imposed by a multinational evil corporation, and that raises a few red flags in my mind.
[13:25.320 --> 13:32.880]  Well, okay, we can get into your red flags in a few minutes, but Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, I don't have...
[13:34.060 --> 13:43.380]  For one thing, I don't have net access right now, so I can't give you exactly who comprises these people, but they are a well-respected organization that advises on consumer issues.
[13:43.760 --> 14:04.380]  And what they're doing right now is advising people to exercise caution when buying DVDs, for reasons we already know, but the way they describe it, the ACC is concerned that many purchases of DVD players and films are still in the dark about their inability to play imported DVDs on DVD players purchased in Australia.
[14:05.500 --> 14:20.240]  The ACC is currently investigating whether Australian consumers are paying higher prices for DVDs because of the ability of copyright owners, such as film companies, to prevent competition by restricting imports from countries where the same authorized video titles are sold more cheaply.
[14:20.760 --> 14:31.680]  The ACC is aware that manufacturers of DVD players around the world are required by the DVD Copy Control Association in California to incorporate the regional playback control system.
[14:31.880 --> 14:43.340]  The RPC system effectively divides the world into six regions for the purposes of DVD distribution and employs digital encryption to prevent the DVD produced from one region from being played on a DVD player manufactured for another region.
[14:44.180 --> 14:45.880]  Now, do you guys know what the regions are?
[14:46.000 --> 14:47.020]  Have you ever actually looked at this?
[14:47.160 --> 14:48.500]  Yeah, there's more than six, actually.
[14:48.640 --> 14:54.360]  There's a seventh region, which is for special events like on airlines and cruise ships and things like that.
[14:54.420 --> 14:56.780]  There's also an eighth that is some obscure thing like that.
[14:57.060 --> 14:57.080]  Antarctica.
[14:57.620 --> 14:58.340]  Yeah, Antarctica.
[14:58.720 --> 14:59.280]  Antarctica's in there.
[14:59.480 --> 15:00.560]  Well, I didn't know about that.
[15:00.720 --> 15:01.720]  You're in region two there.
[15:01.900 --> 15:03.200]  Do you know what the existing six are?
[15:03.420 --> 15:03.720]  Yes.
[15:04.260 --> 15:04.940]  The U.S.
[15:05.100 --> 15:06.120]  is region one.
[15:06.260 --> 15:08.500]  Europe and Australia, I believe, is region two.
[15:08.800 --> 15:11.160]  Okay, you're wrong right away, so you might as well stop now.
[15:11.160 --> 15:11.480]  Okay.
[15:11.760 --> 15:13.140]  Well, three is South America and something else.
[15:13.260 --> 15:14.180]  China is its own, six.
[15:14.380 --> 15:15.560]  Okay, just stop now.
[15:16.120 --> 15:16.280]  All right.
[15:16.400 --> 15:18.720]  The United States and Canada are currently in region one.
[15:18.920 --> 15:19.080]  All right.
[15:19.160 --> 15:22.080]  Region two is Europe, South Africa, and Japan.
[15:22.460 --> 15:22.980]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[15:23.480 --> 15:25.500]  Region three is Southeast Asia.
[15:26.120 --> 15:31.540]  Region four is Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific, Latin, and South America.
[15:32.300 --> 15:36.640]  Region five is Africa, Russian Federation, and Eastern Europe.
[15:37.080 --> 15:38.580]  And region six is China.
[15:38.860 --> 15:38.980]  Right.
[15:39.320 --> 15:43.120]  And as these folks say, it is clear that there is no geographic logic to these regional divisions.
[15:43.940 --> 15:52.040]  What this means in practical terms for Australian consumers is that only DVDs purchased in Australia can be effectively played on a DVD player purchased in Australia.
[15:52.340 --> 15:58.280]  If consumers choose to purchase a DVD player overseas, they may not be able to play DVDs purchased in Australia in their machines.
[15:58.480 --> 16:06.520]  Similarly, a DVD player purchased in Australia will generally not be able to play DVDs purchased overseas unless the disc is purchased in another region four country, such as New Zealand.
[16:08.240 --> 16:16.360]  Basically, their conclusion is there will likely be a large number of disappointed consumers who, because of this system, cannot make use of their overseas purchases.
[16:17.060 --> 16:22.360]  It's something that I saw a lot of going around various places in Europe.
[16:22.740 --> 16:30.080]  It's a bigger issue here because, obviously, most of the DVDs coming out are region one DVDs.
[16:30.740 --> 16:36.900]  It's very simple to get a non-region encoded DVD player.
[16:37.120 --> 16:41.540]  In fact, most of them that seem to be sold in many countries countries don't have any region attached to them.
[16:42.340 --> 16:49.460]  So it's definitely an issue that is being explored a lot more here in Europe than in the United States.
[16:49.580 --> 16:51.880]  But I think it's also going to become an issue in the United States as well.
[16:53.040 --> 17:00.280]  One concern that a lot of people seem to be having is that foreign films, for instance, just simply won't be released in the United States.
[17:00.400 --> 17:01.580]  There will be no way to see them.
[17:01.980 --> 17:04.300]  Whereas before, it was possible to do this.
[17:05.160 --> 17:09.860]  You know, you could get a pal playing VCR, for instance.
[17:10.640 --> 17:16.640]  Now you'll have to import some other expensive piece of machinery, which is redundant to the one you already have.
[17:17.620 --> 17:21.520]  And, you know, if it's from a different region other than Europe, you'll have to get two of them.
[17:21.740 --> 17:27.020]  You know, you'll have seven DVD players lined up on top of each other to play something from all parts of the world.
[17:27.220 --> 17:28.840]  That stimulates the economy, Emmanuel.
[17:29.900 --> 17:31.600]  Yeah, for some people, maybe.
[17:32.040 --> 17:33.640]  Well, it's not an issue of stimulation.
[17:33.640 --> 17:35.560]  It's a matter of maintaining the status quo.
[17:35.840 --> 17:45.460]  Like you said, you're going to have to buy a PAL VCR in order to, or a PAL converter or some sort of hardware to be able to play a European-sourced piece of video.
[17:45.740 --> 17:47.120]  With DVD, that disappears.
[17:47.420 --> 17:49.880]  That was not an artificial...
[17:50.460 --> 17:53.100]  That was an issue of standards, but the industry has gone around that.
[17:53.120 --> 17:54.020]  It was completely artificial.
[17:54.480 --> 18:01.160]  Would you intend to tell the industry to just, you know, well, guys, sorry, you're going to have to rearrange all your release dates and the whole nine yards?
[18:01.340 --> 18:04.820]  Well, you know, it really is the consumer that decides in the end.
[18:05.020 --> 18:06.740]  I don't think it's something that... Quite right.
[18:07.800 --> 18:19.200]  They're not going to just be able to have the right to do this kind of thing and come out with all these different versions and require people to buy things many, many times over without some kind of a fight.
[18:19.560 --> 18:28.940]  And I think a lot of people are very upset at the way this is turning out because they weren't aware that when this technology was introduced that it was going to be done this way.
[18:29.360 --> 18:33.880]  And it's making people very frustrated and very upset.
[18:34.520 --> 18:39.060]  And it's, again, the same thing we're going to be seeing in other forms of technology in the future as well.
[18:39.340 --> 18:46.340]  Basically, different releases in different parts of the world at different times designed for maximum profitability.
[18:47.000 --> 18:53.400]  And it can really hurt people who travel or people who need to copy things for personal use.
[18:53.580 --> 18:56.880]  Fair use basically is going right out the window, as we've said many times.
[18:57.060 --> 19:04.340]  Yeah, what's the point of putting DVD players in laptops for travelers, you know, if they can't buy DVDs and watch them?
[19:04.480 --> 19:04.980]  Yeah, exactly.
[19:05.340 --> 19:11.980]  I mean, I saw DVDs here that are not on sale anywhere in the United States and probably never will be.
[19:12.220 --> 19:13.340]  What am I supposed to do?
[19:15.000 --> 19:16.060]  What am I supposed to do?
[19:16.200 --> 19:17.000]  You just close your eyes.
[19:18.600 --> 19:19.440]  You lose.
[19:19.600 --> 19:21.700]  Come back to the United States, you defector.
[19:22.920 --> 19:30.840]  Imagine we had this way of dealing with books, where basically, okay, Stephen King has come out with a book, but it's only come out in the United States.
[19:30.840 --> 19:32.540]  You can't read it in England.
[19:32.740 --> 19:35.280]  You're not allowed to yet, because it hasn't come out in England yet.
[19:35.420 --> 19:38.360]  Well, with e-books, maybe we'll just do that.
[19:38.620 --> 19:39.880]  E-books will make this all possible.
[19:40.040 --> 19:40.280]  You're right.
[19:40.320 --> 19:40.800]  Yes, definitely.
[19:41.160 --> 19:42.340]  But again, we'll look back.
[19:42.560 --> 19:49.520]  I mean, the releases of movies overseas at different times than releases here in the States is not unprecedented.
[19:49.940 --> 19:51.880]  It's how things happen now.
[19:52.160 --> 19:57.860]  Right, but if you could get your hands on a video cassette of something that was already released in another country, more power to you.
[19:57.900 --> 19:58.600]  You could do that.
[19:58.720 --> 19:58.900]  Right.
[19:59.140 --> 20:00.160]  It was not a big deal.
[20:00.400 --> 20:01.900]  Well, now it's the same thing with the DVD.
[20:02.140 --> 20:06.580]  No, it's not the same thing, because there are now seven or eight different regions.
[20:07.140 --> 20:10.000]  They're making laws saying it's illegal for you to do this.
[20:10.240 --> 20:10.900]  Ah, where, though?
[20:17.100 --> 20:19.560]  Right, and it looks like Australia is going to be one of them pretty soon.
[20:19.680 --> 20:20.900]  New Zealand already is.
[20:21.700 --> 20:27.080]  So once countries start to reject this kind of a thing, that's when you might start seeing some changes.
[20:27.080 --> 20:32.920]  So it's all the pressure that is put upon the market, and I think we're starting to see a backlash.
[20:33.240 --> 20:41.800]  You know, Emmanuel, since you're not here, Isaac knew he was going to kind of be running the board here at WBAI, and he came in wearing his I Love John Ashcroft t-shirt.
[20:43.500 --> 20:44.900]  I don't own a t-shirt, sir.
[20:44.900 --> 20:45.920]  I'd like to know that.
[20:46.660 --> 20:49.160]  I don't own a t-shirt, you hippie-looking.
[20:49.160 --> 20:53.000]  He's actually wearing a tie and a corporate logo on his shirt.
[20:53.020 --> 20:56.240]  Well, I came from a meeting earlier, so that's how it works.
[20:56.300 --> 21:01.400]  You know, I went to an informal 2600 meeting early today in Copenhagen.
[21:01.800 --> 21:03.140]  Were you treated like a rock star?
[21:03.500 --> 21:07.620]  Well, no, I don't really think they treat people like rock stars up there, even if they are rock stars.
[21:08.700 --> 21:09.460]  But don't they know?
[21:09.840 --> 21:14.660]  Denmark is a really interesting place where everybody is pretty much treated equally.
[21:15.060 --> 21:25.060]  You know, no matter who you are, whether you're the prime minister or some person who doesn't have a penny to his name, everybody is pretty much treated with the same amount of respect.
[21:25.060 --> 21:27.240]  Everyone is expected to follow the same rules.
[21:27.620 --> 21:29.060]  They're very big on rules.
[21:30.000 --> 21:31.260]  It's kind of funny sometimes.
[21:31.620 --> 21:38.400]  You notice it mostly at intersections where, you know, there'll be a little red man, you know, for the don't walk sign.
[21:38.580 --> 21:43.540]  And there won't be a car for miles, but all these people are just standing there like statues waiting for it to turn green.
[21:43.980 --> 21:48.240]  And when it turns green, everyone just suddenly reanimates themselves and moves across the street.
[21:49.400 --> 21:50.880]  That kind of thing is pretty common.
[21:51.060 --> 21:52.020]  It's just part of their culture.
[21:52.780 --> 21:54.800]  But I found out a few things.
[21:55.000 --> 22:01.280]  I found out that if you start walking across the street yourself, others will follow.
[22:01.820 --> 22:05.760]  So I figured, give me a week in Denmark and I can corrupt the society.
[22:06.560 --> 22:11.420]  Yeah, but see, you're basing things on New York mentality.
[22:11.460 --> 22:16.640]  I mean, when you travel to other parts of the United States, people would just stand there on the corner like that as well.
[22:16.720 --> 22:19.280]  In New York, signs are merely a suggestion.
[22:19.280 --> 22:24.280]  Well, in most parts of the United States, they don't have little flashing red and white guys at crosswalks anyway.
[22:24.660 --> 22:25.880]  What is a crosswalk?
[22:26.280 --> 22:27.700]  You drive your SUV.
[22:27.940 --> 22:28.380]  Exactly.
[22:30.520 --> 22:35.860]  Well, I also went to another part of Copenhagen known as Christiania, which is...
[22:35.860 --> 22:37.580]  This is a very interesting place.
[22:37.580 --> 22:40.580]  This is like an anarchist commune.
[22:40.700 --> 22:48.180]  I don't know if that's really a fair way to describe it, but basically a bunch of people took over military barracks years ago and they just settled in them.
[22:48.180 --> 22:53.980]  And they've developed this whole community with places to live, stores, all kinds of things.
[22:54.320 --> 23:00.980]  And because of the Danish way of life, it's thought that it would be wrong to simply evict these people and throw them out.
[23:01.240 --> 23:07.820]  So they've managed to make a thriving community of their own where they refuse to pay any taxes.
[23:07.820 --> 23:10.160]  They just kind of do their own thing.
[23:10.400 --> 23:12.360]  They live peacefully amongst themselves.
[23:12.360 --> 23:17.820]  And it's like going into a completely different world when you walk down their streets.
[23:18.780 --> 23:23.800]  In the United States, something like that would be bombed instantly by the authorities.
[23:23.800 --> 23:25.020]  It was in Philadelphia.
[23:25.280 --> 23:26.460]  They were called the MOVE organizations.
[23:26.920 --> 23:27.140]  Exactly.
[23:27.140 --> 23:28.360]  That's what happened there.
[23:29.260 --> 23:32.940]  Here, it simply was amazing to walk down there and see all this.
[23:33.060 --> 23:33.740]  It's very inspiring.
[23:33.740 --> 23:36.520]  And I think it's something that people need to do.
[23:36.620 --> 23:43.040]  They need to just take a stand and start their own communities because that's what life is, is starting communities.
[23:44.140 --> 23:50.260]  It's strange that in a place that is so into following the rules that you would see such a big step away from that.
[23:50.600 --> 23:58.740]  And when people do step away from following the rules, everybody else in society says, well, we have to respect that, which I think is rather admirable.
[23:59.760 --> 24:01.360]  So Denmark is quite an interesting place.
[24:01.500 --> 24:04.620]  And I'm very happy I went up there just for a couple of days to see the place.
[24:05.440 --> 24:08.120]  But I got a lot out of it, and I recommend it to others.
[24:08.760 --> 24:10.940]  And it's really cool to find a bunch of hackers up there, too.
[24:11.520 --> 24:12.480]  Oh, there's hackers everywhere.
[24:12.660 --> 24:13.580]  But right now you're in Germany.
[24:13.580 --> 24:27.680]  It was cool because I just went to their website, which is www.2600.dk, and all of a sudden there's all these Danish hackers up there that pretty much are into the same things that hackers all over the world are into.
[24:28.220 --> 24:34.300]  They get together in a cafe once a month and hang out and talk about the things we talk about at City Corp Center.
[24:34.700 --> 24:38.060]  And they get stared at by people just like we get stared at by people.
[24:38.420 --> 24:41.600]  Although in Denmark, people stare at you more if you are unusual.
[24:41.600 --> 24:46.580]  Well, everyone was staring at me, and I realized that nobody has long hair up there, unless they're female, obviously.
[24:47.260 --> 24:49.860]  So when you're unusual, people just stare at you.
[24:49.960 --> 24:52.200]  And it's not considered impolite for them to do that.
[24:53.320 --> 24:56.080]  So I had to get used to that as well.
[24:56.240 --> 24:57.040]  Now, what did you do now?
[24:57.140 --> 24:57.980]  They had this meeting.
[24:58.120 --> 24:59.040]  You went and you sat down.
[24:59.160 --> 25:03.640]  Did you, like, go around the thing and says, you know, my name is Bob Smith and I am a hacker?
[25:04.120 --> 25:04.880]  I mean...
[25:04.880 --> 25:08.220]  No, it was surprisingly informal, just like it was anywhere else, really.
[25:08.940 --> 25:12.700]  Right, but did you walk in and say, what's up, people?
[25:12.720 --> 25:13.480]  I am your leader.
[25:14.980 --> 25:17.040]  Well, you see, it's not really the way it works.
[25:17.180 --> 25:19.520]  There's no such thing as leaders in our society, either.
[25:21.040 --> 25:24.240]  Basically, I just said, hey, I'm coming into town, you know, anybody be around?
[25:24.840 --> 25:25.500]  Let's meet up.
[25:25.580 --> 25:26.140]  And we did.
[25:27.060 --> 25:28.000]  And it worked very well.
[25:28.040 --> 25:28.760]  It worked very well.
[25:28.880 --> 25:32.500]  But right now you're in Germany, and you're going to head down to the Chaos Computer Congress.
[25:32.680 --> 25:34.900]  Yes, but there's going to be about a thousand hackers that show up there.
[25:35.400 --> 25:36.200]  That's a big deal.
[25:36.440 --> 25:37.320]  That's a very big deal.
[25:37.320 --> 25:39.020]  Do you play spot the Fed at that one?
[25:39.460 --> 25:40.460]  Because I know they do that at home.
[25:40.460 --> 25:40.620]  I hope not.
[25:40.800 --> 25:41.520]  I really hope not.
[25:41.680 --> 25:44.120]  I think this is about as far away from DEF CON as you could possibly get.
[25:45.340 --> 25:46.180]  Thank God for that.
[25:46.300 --> 25:47.700]  So what are you expecting at CCC?
[25:48.420 --> 25:55.140]  I'm expecting to learn a lot, actually, from a lot of people who have been active in the hacker world for longer than any of us have.
[25:55.300 --> 25:58.000]  This is the 17th Chaos Communication Congress.
[25:58.200 --> 25:58.560]  17.
[25:58.900 --> 25:59.840]  I mean, that's incredible.
[26:00.000 --> 26:02.120]  As long as any conference has been going on that I know of.
[26:03.340 --> 26:10.320]  And I've never been to one of their conferences before, so I'd like to learn exactly what the Germans do, you know, as far as hacking.
[26:10.420 --> 26:19.660]  I know it's a lot more political for them, but they also have a lot of people from all different backgrounds from all over Europe that are involved in this.
[26:20.100 --> 26:26.440]  We're going to be showing the film, Freedom Downtime, will be shown tomorrow night at the Congress.
[26:26.840 --> 26:30.460]  We also showed that in Amsterdam, and that went over pretty well.
[26:30.740 --> 26:39.200]  One thing I've noticed with European crowds is that they are shocked by the way our prisoners are treated, by the way our hackers are treated in prison.
[26:39.700 --> 26:43.160]  And that's part of what we talk about in Freedom Downtime.
[26:43.160 --> 27:03.220]  And I've had long discussions about the whole American culture and how we've emphasized putting people in prison so much over the past few years, and how it's become such an industry, how we have more than 2 million people in prison, more than 6 million people in some form of probation or house arrest or something like that.
[27:03.580 --> 27:06.620]  And their minds are boggled by this.
[27:06.800 --> 27:10.480]  They just cannot conceive of what exactly we are doing.
[27:10.680 --> 27:11.980]  And it's a frightening thing.
[27:11.980 --> 27:12.760]  It's frightening for me.
[27:12.760 --> 27:14.360]  It's frightening for them to see what's happening.
[27:14.900 --> 27:19.280]  And I really have to wonder, you know, we see a lot of this in the hacker community.
[27:19.280 --> 27:25.840]  We see a lot of bad things happening, and people winding up in prison for relatively minor offenses.
[27:25.880 --> 27:29.660]  But, you know, it's being duplicated all throughout, and not just in our culture.
[27:30.040 --> 27:32.340]  So it's pretty sobering.
[27:32.580 --> 27:41.520]  So hopefully we can show something to them as well, and take something back to the United States from Germany, and hopefully share information in the future as well.
[27:41.520 --> 27:42.960]  Now, where did you show that?
[27:42.980 --> 27:44.400]  You showed Freedom Downtime in Amsterdam?
[27:44.940 --> 27:46.120]  Yeah, I showed that in Amsterdam.
[27:46.440 --> 27:46.960]  To who?
[27:47.500 --> 27:48.760]  Just to a bunch of Dutch hackers.
[27:49.840 --> 27:54.660]  And that was actually in someone's house, so we only were able to fit about 35, 40 people in.
[27:55.300 --> 27:56.180]  It was a big room.
[27:56.500 --> 27:59.940]  But it was pretty good to show it to a foreign crowd for once.
[28:01.460 --> 28:02.020]  That's cool.
[28:02.020 --> 28:07.220]  This is the final cut, finally, which is, it's down to two hours, and that's it.
[28:07.400 --> 28:07.940]  There's no more editing.
[28:08.300 --> 28:09.440]  Down to two hours, right.
[28:10.040 --> 28:10.900]  Gives you an idea, people.
[28:11.160 --> 28:14.240]  How long was that one that showed at H2K?
[28:14.540 --> 28:17.280]  That was two hours, 20 minutes, so we cut quite a bit from it.
[28:19.240 --> 28:20.500]  Did I get cut out?
[28:21.520 --> 28:21.880]  No.
[28:22.000 --> 28:24.140]  In fact, I think we've added stuff with you.
[28:24.620 --> 28:24.980]  Excellent.
[28:25.240 --> 28:25.440]  There you go.
[28:25.520 --> 28:27.000]  If you didn't want us to put in, we put in.
[28:27.000 --> 28:30.460]  Oh, that scene.
[28:30.660 --> 28:31.040]  Thanks.
[28:31.260 --> 28:31.460]  Yeah.
[28:31.720 --> 28:34.280]  It pays off well amongst the crowds.
[28:34.500 --> 28:36.500]  Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what the hell I said.
[28:36.840 --> 28:37.080]  Yeah.
[28:37.880 --> 28:43.840]  Anyway, so it's been an active week, both for me and for people back in New York.
[28:44.080 --> 28:48.720]  I simply, I got to tell you guys, I go away for one week and all hell breaks loose.
[28:49.460 --> 28:55.400]  I was in Amsterdam when things started to happen with Pacifica and WBAI.
[28:56.220 --> 29:05.760]  And let me tell you something, everybody, everybody here knows about WBAI and they know about the things that are happening with Pacifica.
[29:05.840 --> 29:11.040]  I've had people come up to me and say, what is going on with your radio station?
[29:11.220 --> 29:15.140]  You know, before I would know about it, that's how much people are following the situation.
[29:15.460 --> 29:17.780]  And, you know, not people that I don't know already.
[29:17.920 --> 29:19.320]  It hasn't quite gotten to that stage yet.
[29:19.420 --> 29:23.840]  But people that I know come up to me and say, have you heard what's happening to your radio station?
[29:23.840 --> 29:31.940]  So it's interesting how the internet has completely revolutionized the way that a crisis situation like this comes about.
[29:32.200 --> 29:34.680]  People are listening to the radio station over the internet.
[29:34.720 --> 29:37.900]  They're reading the web pages about the radio station over the internet.
[29:37.900 --> 29:39.360]  They're communicating with themselves.
[29:39.360 --> 29:40.480]  They're telling more people.
[29:41.220 --> 29:51.120]  And when things started to happen on, I guess it was Saturday, I've lost track of what date is which here.
[29:51.680 --> 29:53.380]  But it was at some point I was in Amsterdam.
[29:54.540 --> 29:58.600]  And it was the most incredible thing because the house I was staying in had a wireless LAN.
[29:59.600 --> 30:02.300]  So you didn't have to plug into the wall to be connected to the internet.
[30:03.000 --> 30:06.540]  And I had a laptop, which had a battery, so I didn't have to plug it into the wall for power.
[30:06.780 --> 30:13.000]  I was able to walk up and down five flights of steps in the house, listening to WBAI.
[30:14.220 --> 30:15.760]  It was, this is the future.
[30:15.860 --> 30:16.900]  There's no question about this.
[30:16.980 --> 30:18.440]  This is the future of radio.
[30:19.060 --> 30:22.800]  Walking around with a computer in a foreign city being able to listen to your favorite radio station.
[30:23.080 --> 30:25.660]  And I was able to hear live what was going on.
[30:26.060 --> 30:28.280]  And some of it was, was really troubling to hear.
[30:29.080 --> 30:38.160]  And I was also able to, to read the latest on the, on the web and, and pass this information back and forth to people throughout the world.
[30:38.700 --> 30:41.660]  And again, everybody was transfixed over there.
[30:42.200 --> 30:49.380]  At one point, we plugged the, the laptop into the, into a sound system and had it booming throughout speakers in the house.
[30:49.900 --> 30:53.480]  And this is, this is a scene that I think is being repeated throughout the world.
[30:53.820 --> 31:03.800]  WBAI has, has gone so much more to be so much more than just a 50,000 watt radio station in the middle of New York City, which is a pretty admirable thing to be right in and of itself.
[31:04.440 --> 31:09.820]  But WBAI is also something that people throughout the world look at and admire.
[31:10.540 --> 31:15.280]  So that's why I was particularly troubled by the things that were happening over the past, a few days.
[31:16.580 --> 31:32.480]  If the interesting thing is, if I had heard the, the outcome, if, which in case people who don't know what's going on, I'm sure since we have a lot of people from around the world that are listening and only listen to this show, maybe I should quickly update you.
[31:32.900 --> 31:40.740]  And of course, we'll take some phone calls later if people have any questions or if anybody from the radio station is interested in giving us information that we don't already have.
[31:40.740 --> 32:01.520]  Um, but what happened was in a, in a rather sudden, strange move, um, the, um, the general manager who, uh, had been notified that she was being fired was, uh, replaced, uh, literally at midnight and in the middle of the night, I think on the weekend and,
[32:01.540 --> 32:12.660]  um, replaced by our former talkback, uh, host, Eutrice lead, uh, someone who I think is, uh, really has a good sense of what the station is all about, uh, has been around for a while.
[32:12.840 --> 32:15.040]  It's very popular with, um, with, with people.
[32:15.720 --> 32:28.280]  And, um, again, if I, if I had heard that outcome, if I heard that, uh, this was the person selected by the station to replace our general manager, you know, that would have been something that would have been great.
[32:28.540 --> 32:30.320]  You know, I would have had no problem with that.
[32:30.380 --> 32:36.620]  I would have looked forward to, uh, uh, to, to working with this person and, and, and, and, you know, achieving things.
[32:37.440 --> 32:39.920]  Unfortunately, that's not really how it happened.
[32:40.060 --> 32:47.640]  And if you were listening to the station, you know, this, um, the person that the new person was not, uh, was not selected by the radio station.
[32:47.640 --> 32:55.500]  The new person was appointed by Pacifica, uh, which operates out of a different city, uh, without any kind of consultation with the local board.
[32:56.180 --> 33:11.360]  Um, then after an announcement that, uh, there was not going to be any, any kind of change to the radio station, everything was going to go on business as usual, uh, within hours, uh, people were being threatened with, uh, arrest if they showed up at the radio station,
[33:11.460 --> 33:15.760]  including our, our program director of, uh, who has been at the radio station for 20 years.
[33:16.260 --> 33:25.220]  And our, our former general manager also had been at the radio station for around 20 years, being threatened with arrest for daring to show up at the radius.
[33:25.320 --> 33:30.680]  I mean, this is, this is the kind of stuff that I just find to be bizarre and very, Very, very troubling.
[33:31.160 --> 33:40.180]  And we were listening to this in Amsterdam as it was unfolding with our mouths open, unbelieving that this kind of thing could be happening to our radio station.
[33:40.880 --> 33:53.320]  I've talked to a number of people over the past couple of days, and the sense I get is just one of shock, one of outrage, one of kind of like being hit over the head and not knowing what to do about it yet.
[33:54.100 --> 33:56.860]  We've had demonstrations outside the radio station every day.
[33:56.860 --> 33:59.920]  There's a meeting tomorrow that everybody should know about.
[33:59.920 --> 34:05.600]  And if you're in New York City, I strongly urge you to go to this meeting where everybody's going to be at, listeners, producers.
[34:06.320 --> 34:08.500]  If I was in New York, believe me, I would be there.
[34:08.560 --> 34:11.380]  And I'm trying to get back as quickly as I can so I can take part in this.
[34:11.680 --> 34:13.560]  It's at 101 6th Avenue.
[34:13.560 --> 34:20.340]  That's near Canal Street at 6.30 p.m., 101 6th Avenue near Canal Street, 6.30 p.m.
[34:21.000 --> 34:28.080]  There is a phone number, which you should also engrave on your arm so that you always know what's going on.
[34:28.160 --> 34:39.480]  And that's Erika's 718-707-7189 for the latest information on what's happening with the listener groups, with the producers.
[34:40.340 --> 34:41.320]  What's the number again?
[34:41.320 --> 34:44.780]  718-707-7189.
[34:45.760 --> 34:50.400]  There is a website, www.savepacifica.net.
[34:50.680 --> 34:54.580]  There's an email address, savewbai at hotmail.com.
[34:54.580 --> 34:59.500]  If you email that address, you'll get put on a mailing list, and then you'll get all kinds of information.
[35:02.180 --> 35:09.420]  I don't want to go on too long about this, because, again, I'm in Germany, so I'm not privy to exactly what's going on.
[35:09.500 --> 35:11.420]  You guys can see more than what I see.
[35:11.700 --> 35:23.340]  I've heard all kinds of disturbing things today about how there's security guards in the station now, how people are being questioned when they come into the place, how the mood of the station has just completely gone down the toilet.
[35:24.560 --> 35:26.640]  This is not WBAI.
[35:26.780 --> 35:27.960]  This is not what we are about.
[35:28.360 --> 35:36.860]  And the producers of WBAI, the listeners of WBAI, will certainly fight to protect the radio station that we've come to know and love over the last 40 years.
[35:37.400 --> 35:39.800]  There is no question in my mind about that.
[35:40.300 --> 35:43.640]  This is something that is very important to us.
[35:43.640 --> 35:57.240]  And even though I know that the future of broadcasting is what I saw this week, walking up and down the stairs with a computer listening to it over the Internet, yeah, that might be the future of broadcasting, but that's no reason to give up on what we have now,
[35:57.260 --> 36:00.060]  which is a 50,000-watt radio station in New York City.
[36:00.060 --> 36:05.480]  We would be fools to say, yeah, okay, we're going to go into the new technology and just give up on the old.
[36:05.680 --> 36:07.660]  No, it doesn't work that way.
[36:07.660 --> 36:12.900]  For the same reason, when I'm in Europe, I see a lot here that they do so much better than we do.
[36:13.040 --> 36:18.400]  I hear a lot of stupid things coming out of America that make me angry and make me almost ashamed.
[36:18.860 --> 36:23.820]  But for me to leave and come over here instead and give up on America would be wrong.
[36:24.040 --> 36:26.960]  I'd much rather go back there and help fix things.
[36:26.960 --> 36:34.480]  For the same reason, that's why we cannot give up on WBAI and just hand it over and give up the fight.
[36:34.480 --> 36:36.020]  The fight is ongoing.
[36:36.340 --> 36:38.160]  The radio station is part of the listeners.
[36:38.280 --> 36:40.300]  The listeners have poured their heart and soul into this.
[36:40.900 --> 36:53.520]  And I was talking to our receptionist earlier today who said that he's gotten more phone calls today from people canceling their subscriptions than he ever got in a month in the many, many years he's worked here.
[36:53.960 --> 36:54.920]  That says something.
[36:55.100 --> 37:01.580]  That says listeners are extremely upset and frustrated by what's been happening over the past few days.
[37:01.580 --> 37:13.220]  But I want to make sure people use this frustration in a positive way because if people just simply cancel their subscriptions and walk away from the radio station, I guarantee you this place will not be around longer than a few more months.
[37:13.220 --> 37:15.020]  There is no question in my mind about that.
[37:15.120 --> 37:18.700]  What you have to do is take that energy and use it for something positive.
[37:18.900 --> 37:20.620]  Come to the meeting tomorrow for one thing.
[37:20.700 --> 37:26.400]  That's one way of using that energy and helping to make change.
[37:26.400 --> 37:29.240]  Because the one thing that will make change is public pressure.
[37:29.420 --> 37:30.480]  That works anywhere.
[37:30.720 --> 37:32.320]  That works in any dictatorship.
[37:32.320 --> 37:38.320]  That works in any former Iron Curtain country that gets overthrown.
[37:38.460 --> 37:40.240]  That works throughout the world.
[37:40.360 --> 37:41.760]  Public pressure is what got Bernie S.
[37:42.020 --> 37:42.300]  released.
[37:43.180 --> 37:46.000]  It's the most important thing that you can possibly apply.
[37:46.220 --> 37:49.220]  So again, the meeting is tomorrow, 101 6th Avenue.
[37:49.500 --> 37:51.280]  It's near Canal Street, 630 p.m.
[37:51.620 --> 37:53.140]  Lots and lots of people will be there.
[37:54.000 --> 37:58.500]  And I think we should open it up to the listeners at 212-209-2900.
[37:58.680 --> 38:16.740]  And particularly if there are people out there that have more information about the situation at the radio station or anyone who has been banned from the radio station itself, you're welcome on the airwaves during Off the Hook to tell us your side of the story so people know what's going on.
[38:16.760 --> 38:21.540]  Because we just cannot tolerate speech being stifled in any sense.
[38:21.540 --> 38:24.760]  And that goes for all aspects of life.
[38:25.000 --> 38:28.180]  And I think we'd be very hypocritical if we didn't stand up for that.
[38:28.260 --> 38:31.600]  And I hope everybody on the station is united in this.
[38:32.100 --> 38:33.640]  It's got nothing to do with personalities.
[38:33.780 --> 38:39.580]  Again, you know, I'm not going to stand out here and say who would make a better general manager or program director or whatever.
[38:39.840 --> 38:40.720]  That's not the issue.
[38:40.860 --> 38:46.960]  Because at radio stations, and Laszlo, I'm sure you know this more than anybody, radio stations, people get fired, people get replaced, people get reassigned.
[38:46.960 --> 38:48.100]  And that's normal.
[38:48.620 --> 39:01.460]  But for people who have been hard-working members of a station for two decades to be told that they'll be arrested if they come in the next day, that's just sick.
[39:01.800 --> 39:03.540]  That's something that we need to fight.
[39:03.700 --> 39:10.420]  This is where I'm going to have to disagree with you, Emmanuel, because you're saying, you know, this is so, you know, this is unbelievable what's going on here.
[39:10.460 --> 39:12.300]  And I've talked to other people and, oh, this is unbelievable.
[39:12.300 --> 39:13.840]  Dude, I've seen this before.
[39:14.080 --> 39:17.780]  I've seen this before at corporate-owned radio stations.
[39:17.920 --> 39:21.680]  You have a family of people that have been working great with each other.
[39:21.820 --> 39:23.120]  Maybe it's three months.
[39:23.280 --> 39:24.320]  Maybe it's three years.
[39:26.100 --> 39:30.860]  And some guys make some decisions and come in and show everybody the door.
[39:31.020 --> 39:32.580]  And there's, you know, armed guards there.
[39:32.680 --> 39:35.340]  And you're told to, you know, grab your stuff.
[39:35.580 --> 39:36.720]  And they change the locks.
[39:36.800 --> 39:37.260]  And you get out.
[39:37.360 --> 39:38.180]  That's corporate radio.
[39:38.180 --> 39:39.020]  I've seen it happen.
[39:39.020 --> 39:43.800]  I've seen, you know, people crying outside the studio or outside the radio station.
[39:44.000 --> 39:45.340]  And so then they just kick you out.
[39:45.540 --> 39:47.820]  I've seen this before at corporate stations.
[39:48.180 --> 39:53.540]  And this, what's going on here sickens me.
[39:53.540 --> 39:57.200]  But it's obviously corporate behavior.
[39:57.480 --> 39:58.600]  It's corporate behavior.
[39:58.600 --> 40:00.720]  But this is not a corporate radio station.
[40:00.920 --> 40:02.680]  This is a listener radio station.
[40:02.800 --> 40:03.580]  And that's the difference.
[40:03.580 --> 40:13.880]  It's, you know, to see this kind of corporate thing going on at a listener-run station is something that, you know, I think is mind-boggling.
[40:13.980 --> 40:17.700]  It's something that, you know, we simply can't just stand by and watch.
[40:17.780 --> 40:22.160]  And the listeners of the station are the shareholders in this company, if you will.
[40:22.160 --> 40:28.380]  And they should do what they can to overthrow the president as the shareholders.
[40:28.620 --> 40:39.260]  I mean, if we, you know, if everybody that listens to the station and helps out with it, you know, is donating and is part of the radio station, then they have every right to have their voice heard.
[40:39.260 --> 40:39.720]  Right.
[40:39.840 --> 40:41.720]  And we can't survive without listeners.
[40:42.060 --> 40:45.920]  And that's a very important fact to, you know, to make known.
[40:46.100 --> 40:48.680]  And the station has been doing very well.
[40:48.800 --> 40:53.720]  We have, I believe, a $70,000 surplus, which I know in the commercial radio world would be nothing.
[40:53.880 --> 40:58.720]  But believe me, it's a lot to us, considering we were in a $200,000 hole before.
[40:59.120 --> 41:00.220]  We were able to crawl out of that.
[41:00.340 --> 41:02.440]  We had our most successful fall fundraiser ever.
[41:03.320 --> 41:05.120]  This station has been doing really good.
[41:05.760 --> 41:08.480]  I think the sound of the station has been good.
[41:09.260 --> 41:21.400]  For people to just come in and dictate terms, move in security guards, and just turn the overall mood of the place completely upside down, that's something that has to be answered.
[41:21.680 --> 41:24.140]  Now, there have been rallies outside the station on a daily basis.
[41:24.140 --> 41:26.580]  I don't have information on when the next one of those will be.
[41:26.740 --> 41:31.880]  I think at that phone number, again, 718-707-7189, they have information about that.
[41:32.600 --> 41:35.420]  So people can learn more about it that way.
[41:35.640 --> 41:38.280]  Also, check the webpage at safetacifica.net.
[41:38.280 --> 41:41.860]  And we'll try to have more information on 2600.com as we get it.
[41:42.160 --> 41:44.100]  I think we have some phone calls coming in there.
[41:44.100 --> 41:44.520]  I'm sure we do.
[41:44.600 --> 41:45.800]  There are plenty of phone calls.
[41:46.080 --> 41:46.500]  All right.
[41:46.640 --> 41:50.400]  So let's go to the phone and see if people can add anything to this.
[41:51.700 --> 41:53.000]  Yeah, you're on the air.
[41:53.680 --> 41:54.140]  Good evening.
[41:54.140 --> 42:14.640]  I don't have anything to really add, but I would make this suggestion that instead of canceling subscriptions, people would go to their local small claims court and file a claim for fraud or whatever you might, however you might want to word it, concerning the fact that you paid for a certain type of service,
[42:14.980 --> 42:16.920]  and all of a sudden it's been changed.
[42:17.060 --> 42:17.880]  This will work.
[42:18.620 --> 42:19.640]  It's about money.
[42:20.020 --> 42:24.400]  The whole purpose of this takeover is, as he said, this is corporate.
[42:24.560 --> 42:25.400]  This is a corporate move.
[42:25.720 --> 42:31.680]  And it's about destabilizing and eventually destroying WBAI so it can be sold.
[42:31.820 --> 42:34.880]  Hit them where it hurts now, at the money level.
[42:34.880 --> 42:46.420]  Another comment I would make is this, is that remember that Eutrice Leed, here in Harlem, we remember Eutrice Leed as the person who single-handedly caused all the street vendors on 125th Street to be arrested one day.
[42:47.100 --> 42:48.720]  Okay, I wasn't aware of that.
[42:49.100 --> 42:52.860]  Ah, ah, because I listened to Eutrice this morning.
[42:52.860 --> 42:54.640]  I waited all weekend to hear what she had to say.
[42:54.880 --> 42:57.400]  And for one hour, she said absolutely nothing.
[42:58.400 --> 43:00.200]  She never once gave any facts.
[43:00.380 --> 43:02.140]  All she did was go, ha, ha, ha, ha.
[43:02.400 --> 43:04.320]  You people are not acting properly.
[43:04.960 --> 43:05.760]  You know what I'm saying?
[43:06.360 --> 43:08.960]  So there's something funny going on, as you all said.
[43:09.040 --> 43:11.780]  And by the way, Emanuel, you were the one who noticed it last week.
[43:11.880 --> 43:12.840]  I was listening to the show.
[43:12.940 --> 43:14.140]  You said, hey, they changed the locks.
[43:14.400 --> 43:17.440]  Yeah, that was some ominous foreshadowing there.
[43:17.440 --> 43:20.900]  And you said, they can't just change the locks and lock us out, can they?
[43:21.520 --> 43:22.140]  And they did.
[43:23.400 --> 43:24.580]  All right, take care.
[43:24.760 --> 43:25.380]  Thanks for the call.
[43:25.880 --> 43:27.420]  You know, it's interesting, guys.
[43:27.680 --> 43:36.580]  When I was in Amsterdam, and this was unfolding, I was reminded of this film I saw years ago.
[43:36.580 --> 43:38.000]  It was called Moonlighting.
[43:38.240 --> 43:44.860]  It's about these Polish workers that come to England to work illegally during the whole Solidarity uprising.
[43:45.600 --> 43:49.640]  And one of the Polish workers is played surprisingly well by Jeremy Irons.
[43:50.560 --> 44:09.100]  And the story centers around them working illegally in this strange city of London, while in the background you see on TV sets the army moving in, the tanks moving in, in Warsaw and Gdansk and places like that, and basically crushing Solidarity.
[44:09.360 --> 44:23.380]  And just the feeling that they were getting, being in a faraway place, watching something that they value being destroyed, very similar to the feeling that I was getting in Amsterdam, listening to what was happening over the radio.
[44:23.920 --> 44:25.020]  It was scary.
[44:25.280 --> 44:26.220]  It really was scary.
[44:26.220 --> 44:35.620]  When you think of something equivalent to a coup in a faraway land happening to a radio station, you realize that that place means a lot to you.
[44:36.340 --> 44:38.340]  It's not just a place where you work.
[44:38.340 --> 44:40.320]  It's a place where people put their lives into.
[44:41.540 --> 44:44.100]  And I know a lot of the listeners feel the same way.
[44:44.740 --> 44:54.920]  So while, you know, while people will react in different ways, I think the important thing, the thing everybody should always keep in mind, is what is best for the station.
[44:55.440 --> 44:58.180]  Yeah, we can say, hit them where it hurts the most.
[44:58.180 --> 44:59.640]  We can say this will cripple them.
[45:00.120 --> 45:06.160]  But keep in mind that a crippling blow to the radio station is a crippling blow to the radio station that you value.
[45:06.800 --> 45:09.060]  And that's something that I think we have to keep in mind.
[45:09.060 --> 45:13.720]  Yes, we want to defeat whatever evil power we define.
[45:14.320 --> 45:17.180]  But at the same time, we want to save the radio stations.
[45:17.180 --> 45:20.520]  Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face or whatever the saying is.
[45:21.000 --> 45:21.600]  Okay, next call.
[45:22.640 --> 45:23.140]  Good evening.
[45:23.260 --> 45:23.700]  You're on the air.
[45:24.380 --> 45:24.600]  Hello.
[45:25.080 --> 45:25.460]  Go ahead.
[45:25.740 --> 45:26.000]  Yeah.
[45:27.380 --> 45:36.860]  I'm just wondering, when you send a check, I usually send a check to WBAI Pacifica, can I just try to check to WBAI and Pacifica won't get any part of that?
[45:37.600 --> 45:38.980]  I don't think so.
[45:39.260 --> 45:47.720]  Again, I'm not an expert on exactly how the inner workings of Pacifica work, but I believe everything that gets sent to WBAI has to go through Pacifica, if I understand it correctly.
[45:48.040 --> 45:49.740]  If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
[45:50.320 --> 45:52.460]  Well, who would know that for sure?
[45:53.400 --> 45:55.400]  Well, the general manager would certainly know that.
[45:55.720 --> 45:56.740]  Can I talk to him tomorrow?
[45:57.140 --> 45:57.600]  Her.
[45:57.880 --> 45:58.840]  That's the truth lead guy.
[45:58.980 --> 46:00.060]  Who's managing now?
[46:00.060 --> 46:03.960]  Well, the truth lead is the interim manager right now, as appointed by Pacifica.
[46:04.940 --> 46:13.420]  So what you should do is call the radio station tomorrow at the office number, which is 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-8-hundred, and get the information that way.
[46:14.040 --> 46:14.840]  Will I get a personal?
[46:15.080 --> 46:15.700]  Will I get a...
[46:15.700 --> 46:20.360]  If you call during business hours, you should get our human receptionist, Fred.
[46:21.780 --> 46:23.700]  Keep in mind, he's getting a lot of calls.
[46:23.820 --> 46:24.640]  Don't take it out on Fred.
[46:24.640 --> 46:25.660]  He's got nothing to do with it.
[46:26.020 --> 46:26.220]  Yeah.
[46:27.520 --> 46:28.440]  Okay, thanks for your call.
[46:28.440 --> 46:29.440]  We'll move on here.
[46:29.860 --> 46:30.160]  All right.
[46:30.360 --> 46:30.720]  Good evening.
[46:30.860 --> 46:31.280]  You're on the air.
[46:32.480 --> 46:32.960]  Hi.
[46:33.060 --> 46:44.120]  I had to call, although I wasn't really getting that involved in this, I was actually going to turn on to hear about some new innovations in telephony and communication.
[46:44.120 --> 46:55.480]  But one remark that someone said just really shook me to my very being to the point where I cannot understand how someone could say that and be on this radio station.
[46:55.480 --> 47:04.620]  And when the remark was made, words to the effect that I've seen this happen so many times, it's quite common in corporate radio.
[47:05.020 --> 47:06.680]  It has to be stretched.
[47:06.920 --> 47:13.060]  It has to be emphasized that anyone who listens to this station, we're different than the average person.
[47:13.240 --> 47:15.980]  We actually, this is like an oasis to us.
[47:15.980 --> 47:17.460]  We're not the average people.
[47:17.620 --> 47:19.100]  We have different ideals.
[47:19.120 --> 47:20.360]  We're probably more humane.
[47:20.360 --> 47:25.340]  We probably are more in touch with the human feelings, the human side of life.
[47:25.560 --> 47:39.520]  We're a different type of people who all gravitated to this type of station because we were looking for something, and there was a void in the world, and this was some place where we could find people who had feelings like we had.
[47:39.660 --> 47:43.540]  And it sort of pains me when somebody takes that sort of existentialist attitude.
[47:43.540 --> 47:48.140]  I don't think they can really understand that we are different than the average New Yorker.
[47:48.220 --> 47:54.800]  We gravitated to this place because we needed something, and we probably have all of us who are listening to this station.
[47:54.800 --> 48:01.140]  We've always probably had that void or that loneliness in our lives because we know that we're different from the average person in the world.
[48:01.200 --> 48:02.160]  We have more feelings.
[48:02.360 --> 48:04.140]  We have more central people.
[48:04.640 --> 48:11.360]  This is one of the few outlets that people like us have to have others who are human like us.
[48:11.360 --> 48:14.520]  Right, and I understand that.
[48:14.800 --> 48:15.580]  I'm Lazlo.
[48:15.660 --> 48:17.040]  I'm the person that made that comment.
[48:17.920 --> 48:19.180]  I think we asked that person.
[48:19.340 --> 48:20.920]  Well, let me respond to him.
[48:21.760 --> 48:23.160]  I do understand that.
[48:23.380 --> 48:37.440]  What I'm saying is, and I know that this place is different than corporate radio, but I've worked in corporate radio, and I come in here to help out because I believe in public radio, is that I've seen these kind of tactics before.
[48:37.440 --> 48:44.640]  You know, people that have worked here at WBAI and Pacifica may have not seen these kind of stuff before, but I've seen this.
[48:44.740 --> 48:46.940]  I've been the one fired.
[48:47.520 --> 48:50.260]  I've been the person locked out of the radio station before.
[48:50.480 --> 48:57.600]  And what I'm saying is, these are more corporate tactics than they are community radio tactics.
[48:57.600 --> 48:58.140]  Right.
[48:58.340 --> 49:02.720]  I didn't see what Lazlo said as in any way supporting that kind of mentality.
[49:03.120 --> 49:12.720]  Basically just a way of shocking some reality into the rest of us that, guess what, this place is being treated like one of those corporate radio stations, and we better wake up and see that.
[49:12.820 --> 49:16.680]  And I could tell by that last caller that's one person who is woken up.
[49:17.000 --> 49:20.400]  And that station means a lot to him, a lot to so many of our listeners.
[49:21.000 --> 49:21.900]  It's their life.
[49:22.120 --> 49:23.040]  It's our lives.
[49:23.040 --> 49:26.540]  It's something that we've poured our hearts and souls into.
[49:27.140 --> 49:35.520]  And you can't just expect people to walk away from something like that or accept something that's unpleasant or just plain wrong.
[49:37.460 --> 49:46.140]  So this is a conversation that I think will be going on for quite some time in many different forms, and rightfully so.
[49:46.640 --> 49:47.340]  All right, let's move on.
[49:48.000 --> 49:48.680]  Good evening.
[49:48.780 --> 49:49.140]  You're on the air.
[49:49.500 --> 49:49.920]  Yeah, hi.
[49:49.920 --> 49:50.020]  All right.
[49:50.560 --> 50:01.280]  You know, I just wanted to say, I don't know if you were aware of it, earlier today, well, you know that Betsy Wash was on Latrice's program.
[50:01.520 --> 50:05.020]  Betsy Wash being the, she's the general manager of Pacifica?
[50:05.020 --> 50:07.820]  She's the executive director of Pacifica.
[50:08.180 --> 50:08.320]  Okay.
[50:08.320 --> 50:12.200]  And, uh, Latrice finally came on.
[50:13.700 --> 50:23.540]  And, uh, basically, it was, in terms of time, the amount of time spent on it was woefully inadequate.
[50:23.920 --> 50:25.700]  Well, how much would you want to spend on it?
[50:25.800 --> 50:29.900]  I mean, you've been hearing the same kind of thing for about a week now on every single program.
[50:30.840 --> 50:34.980]  Well, I don't know, I don't think you realize what I'm referring to.
[50:34.980 --> 50:36.860]  How many times has Betsy Wash been on?
[50:37.240 --> 50:38.740]  That's exactly the point.
[50:38.920 --> 50:39.120]  Okay.
[50:39.400 --> 50:51.900]  This is her first time on, and this is the first time Latrice has issued a statement as to, uh, trying to give a, uh, a picture of what has occurred.
[50:53.800 --> 51:07.240]  Previously to that, you, you just had a, uh, an info commercial with Latrice saying, well, you know, there's plenty to do, and I'm equal to the task, and you'll hear from me shortly, or something like that.
[51:07.760 --> 51:28.660]  But, uh, you know, listening to your story of life in Denmark, and then going to the, uh, description of the armed guards and the, uh, lobby and, uh, people 20 years threatening with being sent to, uh, to be locked up in the tombs, uh, that really hits the heart of the matter,
[51:28.920 --> 51:29.240]  you know.
[51:29.240 --> 51:31.040]  Uh, yes.
[51:31.400 --> 51:43.840]  Right there, and it's, it's basically simply saying, you know, you people are scum, the ends justify the means, and we don't have to tolerate any, uh, differences of opinion.
[51:44.260 --> 51:46.320]  What's your answer to that, sir?
[51:47.060 --> 51:47.880]  Excuse me?
[51:48.080 --> 51:49.960]  What's your, how would you respond to something like that?
[51:50.340 --> 51:50.940]  Well, now?
[51:51.620 --> 51:51.880]  Mm-hmm.
[51:55.400 --> 51:59.220]  Well, you gotta mobilize, uh, yeah.
[51:59.220 --> 52:16.880]  You know, the, the one big question mark is, it's almost an unbelievable question mark, and yet, uh, as much as you don't want to, uh, uh, this listener, at any rate, doesn't want to, uh, uh, uh, face it exactly, I mean, uh, those are trees who, who would often preach,
[52:17.160 --> 52:22.820]  uh, uh, well, judge it analytically, judge it on the facts, not on the personality.
[52:23.720 --> 52:32.060]  And, uh, the facts that I see lead me to the conclusion that I, I don't, I don't understand how she could be so gullible.
[52:33.120 --> 52:40.700]  Uh, you know, let me point something out, this being a hacking show and a technology show, a lot of people over the last few weeks have said, uh, Dago, what's going on there?
[52:40.780 --> 52:44.520]  You know, you guys are talking about the politics of program directors and general managers.
[52:44.520 --> 52:54.600]  This is the only station that is allowing 2600 and Emanuel to do a show about hacking, you know?
[52:54.780 --> 52:58.160]  And that's one of the reasons that I think we focused on it so much.
[52:58.240 --> 53:00.280]  I mean, it really stinks that we have to focus on it.
[53:00.340 --> 53:03.020]  Well, I can certainly empathize with those listeners that are making those claims.
[53:03.200 --> 53:16.980]  I mean, the hacking contingent, people who tune in for information on GSM and the fact that you say the Russians lose contact with Mir to continue the sky is falling program from two weeks ago, uh, are interested in actually hearing something about hacking.
[53:17.140 --> 53:22.820]  This has turned into a six week long soap opera that, uh, I would imagine people are starting to get tired of hearing about it.
[53:22.820 --> 53:23.300]  Right, Isaac.
[53:24.120 --> 53:29.700]  I hate to burst your bubble, Isaac, but, uh, that soap opera will be canceled if we don't devote to these issues.
[53:30.460 --> 53:36.820]  You know, so sometimes, sometimes our petty concerns with, uh, technology take a backseat to more important issues.
[53:36.940 --> 53:37.680]  It's called union.
[53:38.000 --> 53:40.540]  Yeah, I think the future of the station is a more important issue right now.
[53:40.680 --> 53:43.280]  I also think the future of the country a couple of weeks ago was a more important issue.
[53:43.740 --> 53:46.680]  All right, we have a bunch of, we have a, we have a ton of calls here.
[53:46.700 --> 53:56.220]  I just want to hang up, but before I go, I just want to say something briefly, uh, very, uh, much echoing that, uh, if people aren't united on your, on the various programs, you won't have a show.
[53:57.140 --> 53:57.720]  That's it.
[53:57.940 --> 54:08.520]  You know, who do you want, uh, as producers, uh, Gestapo or something, you know, I'd, I'd love to hear what, uh, Bob Farris has to say about this, frankly.
[54:08.520 --> 54:11.080]  Okay, we'll tune in in a couple of days and then, and you'll hear.
[54:11.280 --> 54:12.120]  Thanks for your call, sir.
[54:12.120 --> 54:12.420]  Thanks for your call.
[54:13.380 --> 54:14.280]  Let's, uh, move on.
[54:14.400 --> 54:14.820]  Here we go.
[54:15.780 --> 54:16.300]  You're on the air.
[54:16.440 --> 54:16.920]  You're on the air.
[54:17.100 --> 54:17.420]  Hi.
[54:17.540 --> 54:25.100]  My understanding is that while Pacifica owns the license to WBAI, it was donated for a different purpose.
[54:25.100 --> 54:31.140]  And that what they don't seem to realize is in the short term, it looks like, you know, on law, like they can liquidate it.
[54:31.240 --> 54:37.640]  But what they're really doing is taking a, uh, a radio station as a profitable ship, turning it into, uh, deep water.
[54:38.020 --> 54:44.040]  And it's going to go down when, uh, it's subject to the FCC approval of either its sale or its changing format.
[54:44.380 --> 54:52.160]  In other words, they're just course saying, taking it on a course for deep water and they don't realize they're, uh, they're not, they're not liquidating it.
[54:52.240 --> 54:53.020]  They're just losing it.
[54:53.140 --> 54:54.120]  They're going to lose the license.
[54:54.660 --> 54:56.300]  That tactic has been used before.
[54:56.600 --> 55:01.420]  And, uh, it's, I'm not saying that's exactly what's happening here, but it certainly is a possibility.
[55:01.420 --> 55:04.240]  Because that, I, it seems like they should make the connection.
[55:04.420 --> 55:07.080]  They do have a valuable asset and they're throwing it away.
[55:08.460 --> 55:10.500]  The listeners are our most valuable part.
[55:10.780 --> 55:13.000]  And obviously the listeners are unhappy with this.
[55:13.180 --> 55:20.860]  And if you, if you do not respect what the listeners are saying, then clearly, you know, you're just in running the radio station, uh, in any responsible way.
[55:21.080 --> 55:22.380]  And, and that's got to be realized.
[55:22.540 --> 55:25.060]  They should take BAI as it is or lose it.
[55:25.440 --> 55:25.800]  Right.
[55:25.960 --> 55:26.120]  All right.
[55:26.200 --> 55:26.720]  Thanks for your call.
[55:28.980 --> 55:29.580]  We'll do another call.
[55:29.660 --> 55:29.900]  Good evening.
[55:30.020 --> 55:30.400]  You're on the air.
[55:32.120 --> 55:32.520]  Hello.
[55:32.880 --> 55:33.260]  Hello.
[55:33.540 --> 55:34.000]  Hey, go ahead.
[55:34.560 --> 55:34.640]  Yeah.
[55:34.740 --> 55:42.660]  Does anyone there see, um, the current problems as a possible result of Amy Goodman's interview with President Clinton?
[55:43.020 --> 55:43.280]  Ooh.
[55:43.520 --> 55:44.420]  Well, it's a possibility.
[55:44.420 --> 55:46.420]  Hey, I'm the conspiracy theorist here, you know?
[55:46.780 --> 55:47.180]  Okay.
[55:47.180 --> 55:48.460]  Well, you need help, right?
[55:48.620 --> 55:49.460]  Oh, well, yeah.
[55:49.500 --> 55:50.280]  I always look for help.
[55:50.480 --> 55:50.780]  Okay.
[55:50.840 --> 55:51.640]  But did they send you?
[55:52.180 --> 55:52.580]  What's that?
[55:52.700 --> 55:53.580]  Did they send you?
[55:54.620 --> 55:55.840]  No, nobody sent me.
[55:55.980 --> 55:56.340]  Okay.
[55:56.560 --> 55:56.680]  Okay.
[55:56.680 --> 55:57.660]  I came on my own.
[55:57.840 --> 55:59.460]  Well, it's certainly, it's certainly possible.
[55:59.660 --> 56:02.260]  You don't really know why backlashes occur.
[56:02.580 --> 56:05.920]  We can spend all night theorizing as to why, but you know, it doesn't really matter why.
[56:05.920 --> 56:07.720]  The fact of the matter is that it's happening.
[56:07.980 --> 56:08.160]  Right.
[56:08.160 --> 56:12.920]  The fact of the matter is that people are being victimized by this unfairly.
[56:13.560 --> 56:18.620]  The entire station is hurting and is threatened with extinction as a result of this.
[56:19.480 --> 56:21.460]  And the question is, what do we do about it?
[56:21.540 --> 56:22.740]  How do we fix it?
[56:22.800 --> 56:26.480]  And again, as a previous listener said, this has got nothing to do with personalities.
[56:26.780 --> 56:33.740]  If Jesus Christ came up from the grave and said, I want to be general manager of the radio station, everybody would be saying that's a great idea.
[56:33.740 --> 56:43.140]  But if he did it in a way that victimized other people and made, you know, made everybody unhappy, it wouldn't be such a good thing anymore.
[56:43.240 --> 56:44.600]  It's got nothing to do with who it is.
[56:44.900 --> 56:49.680]  It has to do with how the process comes about and the process has come about in a very bad way.
[56:49.800 --> 56:49.960]  Right.
[56:50.060 --> 56:50.940]  Process is tainted.
[56:51.640 --> 56:52.000]  Exactly.
[56:52.200 --> 56:53.600]  And we need to confront that issue.
[56:53.960 --> 56:57.980]  If we don't confront the issue, it'll simply get a lot worse.
[56:58.200 --> 57:00.060]  Well, good luck to everybody over there.
[57:00.220 --> 57:00.480]  Thanks.
[57:00.560 --> 57:01.040]  We're going to need it.
[57:01.160 --> 57:01.420]  Okay.
[57:01.500 --> 57:01.880]  You're welcome.
[57:02.000 --> 57:03.140]  And we're going to need our listeners.
[57:03.520 --> 57:05.560]  You know, Emmanuel, you might want to choose a better metaphor.
[57:05.800 --> 57:09.080]  The whole thing is, the idea is that he did rise from the grave a long time ago.
[57:09.760 --> 57:10.880]  Yeah, but not to head the radio station.
[57:10.900 --> 57:11.680]  Oh, he was born yesterday.
[57:11.880 --> 57:12.080]  Oh, okay.
[57:12.180 --> 57:12.380]  I'm sorry.
[57:12.660 --> 57:12.900]  Jesus.
[57:13.080 --> 57:13.900]  Yeah, the radio station wasn't around.
[57:13.900 --> 57:14.560]  That's true, by the way.
[57:14.640 --> 57:16.140]  Everyone have a Merry Christmas.
[57:16.320 --> 57:17.620]  No, it's... Christmas is done.
[57:17.760 --> 57:18.360]  Christmas is done.
[57:18.400 --> 57:19.820]  Right, but Jesus was born yesterday.
[57:20.000 --> 57:20.480]  Okay, keep going.
[57:20.880 --> 57:21.400]  Moving on.
[57:21.600 --> 57:22.580]  Isaac was born yesterday.
[57:22.760 --> 57:23.020]  Good evening.
[57:23.160 --> 57:23.520]  You're on the air.
[57:24.160 --> 57:24.720]  Good evening.
[57:25.980 --> 57:29.100]  I, first of all, I am very troubled by what happened.
[57:30.120 --> 57:33.740]  Although I've grown to admire, you'd receive, bleed a lot.
[57:34.120 --> 57:34.500]  And, uh...
[57:34.500 --> 57:35.380]  Is your radio on?
[57:35.520 --> 57:36.020]  Yes, it is.
[57:36.100 --> 57:36.340]  Okay.
[57:36.440 --> 57:36.840]  Turn it off.
[57:37.080 --> 57:37.540]  That's the first...
[57:38.900 --> 57:40.940]  That's the first rule of being on the radio.
[57:41.960 --> 57:42.640]  Okay, my brother.
[57:42.780 --> 57:43.060]  Hold on.
[57:44.700 --> 57:46.720]  Oh, he goes across the room.
[57:46.760 --> 57:46.980]  Across the room.
[57:47.560 --> 57:47.860]  Hello?
[57:48.180 --> 57:49.120]  I'll just sit here and wait.
[57:49.420 --> 57:49.860]  Yeah, why not?
[57:50.060 --> 57:50.560]  Is he back yet?
[57:50.680 --> 57:51.580]  We've only got three minutes left.
[57:51.760 --> 57:52.040]  Three minutes.
[57:52.040 --> 57:52.340]  We'll move on.
[57:53.080 --> 57:53.260]  Oh.
[57:54.080 --> 57:54.960]  Hello, you're on the air.
[57:54.960 --> 57:56.380]  Yes, hi.
[57:57.100 --> 58:01.180]  I just have to respond, one, to that soap opera idea again.
[58:01.420 --> 58:04.920]  There's not going to be a hacking show if this comes down.
[58:05.560 --> 58:06.740]  Well, there isn't one now.
[58:06.900 --> 58:09.180]  There isn't going to be one, really.
[58:09.960 --> 58:11.120]  Stay there.
[58:11.500 --> 58:12.280]  You know, stay with it.
[58:12.700 --> 58:14.440]  Emmanuel, thank you very much.
[58:15.140 --> 58:15.940]  You're very welcome.
[58:17.160 --> 58:18.220]  What's going on?
[58:18.480 --> 58:19.920]  I just want to say one thing.
[58:20.100 --> 58:26.720]  I've called in before and I had due support and I do not intend to send any money when people are locked at it.
[58:27.060 --> 58:32.600]  And I'm sorry if that ship, the ship goes down, whatever, but I don't go with that.
[58:32.740 --> 58:35.900]  As long as you turn that into something positive and use that energy.
[58:36.140 --> 58:36.140]  I certainly will.
[58:36.140 --> 58:38.760]  It'll go for legal, you know, purposes.
[58:39.380 --> 58:45.280]  The other thing is, this may sound, and I've said this on the air before, but I grew up with people like that.
[58:45.460 --> 58:50.080]  My family were friends with people like Ford and Nixon and people like that.
[58:50.260 --> 59:03.720]  And if anyone there, you treat anyone thinks that this is a civilization or whatever, and that they are going to be in on the ultimate thing, let me tell you, they are not going to be.
[59:03.860 --> 59:03.860]  All right.
[59:04.020 --> 59:04.860]  I think we're out of time.
[59:05.380 --> 59:05.520]  Yep.
[59:05.960 --> 59:07.220]  But thanks so much for calling.
[59:07.320 --> 59:08.300]  Is that the red hot wine ringing?
[59:08.300 --> 59:09.060]  Yes, it is.
[59:10.840 --> 59:11.740]  What does that mean?
[59:12.240 --> 59:14.280]  It means we've got half a minute left.
[59:14.420 --> 59:20.160]  One thing we should take out of this whole show is the fact that of all the calls we got, all of the calls were about this subject.
[59:20.340 --> 59:23.920]  This is something that is affecting people all around the world.
[59:24.140 --> 59:26.100]  And it's something that's not going to go away.
[59:26.200 --> 59:27.300]  We need to keep that in mind.
[59:28.560 --> 59:29.280]  All right.
[59:29.440 --> 59:33.880]  So again, we give out the information, the meeting tomorrow night, very important meeting.
[59:34.220 --> 59:40.120]  People from the radio station will be there, people organizing, 101 6th Avenue, 6.30 PM.
[59:40.360 --> 59:41.920]  That's near Canal Street.
[59:42.160 --> 59:48.200]  The phone number for all the updated information, 718-707-7189.
[59:48.980 --> 59:52.480]  The website, www.savepacifica.net.
[59:52.760 --> 59:56.400]  And email address, savewbai at hotmail.com.
[59:56.540 --> 59:57.000]  Email that.
[59:57.000 --> 59:59.760]  You'll be put on a mailing list, and you'll get all kinds of information.
[01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:02.640]  Is it Emmanuel Goldstein for Isaac and for Laszlo?
[01:00:03.460 --> 01:00:05.020]  Well, I think we'll be back next week.
[01:00:05.100 --> 01:00:06.200]  And if so, I'll be in the studio.
[01:00:06.700 --> 01:00:11.520]  And we'll see just how many security guards and new locks there are to look at.
[01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:12.260]  Good night.
[01:00:12.700 --> 01:00:13.080]  Good night.
[01:00:14.680 --> 01:00:15.440]  Good night.
[01:01:28.290 --> 01:01:33.870]  The prison system is out of control, and people you love are living under conditions that no one deserves.
[01:01:33.870 --> 01:01:43.930]  Why not let them know you care by sending them a message over the airwaves with WBAI's prisoner shout-out line, broadcasting your voice every Thursday morning at 645.
[01:01:44.370 --> 01:01:47.050]  Do you have a loved one behind bars and you haven't called?
[01:01:47.290 --> 01:01:52.110]  Pick up the phone and dial 212-209-2958.
[01:01:52.630 --> 01:01:59.110]  That's the prisoner shout-out line, 212-209-2958.
[01:01:59.110 --> 01:02:01.390]  I miss you so much at home, man.
[01:02:01.510 --> 01:02:02.570]  I really do, man.
[01:02:03.370 --> 01:02:05.310]  Stay strong, brother, man.
[01:02:06.410 --> 01:02:07.390]  Daddy loves you.
[01:02:08.010 --> 01:02:09.110]  Stay strong.
[01:02:10.010 --> 01:02:11.550]  And we're going to be all right.
[01:02:12.410 --> 01:02:14.610]  The best thing that ever happened to me.
[01:02:15.090 --> 01:02:16.390]  I love you today.
[01:02:22.550 --> 01:02:23.270]  Hola.
[01:02:23.830 --> 01:02:35.490]  This is Malika Lee Whitney inviting you to join me for From Harlem to Havana, a series of cultural commentaries, observations, and conversations gathered during my recent travel to Cuba.
[01:02:35.870 --> 01:02:48.050]  Highlights will include moments from the 22nd International Latin American Film Festival, the Havana Jazz Festival, and an interview with Asada Shakur, travel tips, and more.
[01:02:48.230 --> 01:02:53.310]  That's From Harlem to Havana, Wednesday, December 27th at 5 p.m.
[01:02:53.430 --> 01:02:58.230]  over listener-sponsored WBAI Radio 99.5 FM.
[01:03:06.070 --> 01:03:08.130]  It is now 9 p.m.
[01:03:08.330 --> 01:03:12.430]  Up next, Tahere with Barbara Nimri Aziz.