[00:33.230 --> 00:38.750]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where it's almost time for Off the Hook.
[00:38.750 --> 00:40.090]  We're going to be starting in just a moment.
[00:40.090 --> 00:41.570]  We have all kinds of things to tell you about.
[00:42.950 --> 00:44.630]  But I thought maybe it would be nice.
[00:44.790 --> 00:46.090]  Well, I guess we should play the theme a little bit.
[00:48.130 --> 00:48.970]  Okay, that's enough of that.
[00:50.750 --> 01:00.990]  Here's a little song that we dragged out from 1915, having to do with the phone company, which ordinarily would be a very interesting thing to play, and it gives us some time to get our heads together here.
[01:00.990 --> 01:02.870]  And I'll be back in just a moment.
[01:09.840 --> 01:10.600]  Hello?
[01:11.200 --> 01:11.960]  Hello?
[01:12.680 --> 01:13.440]  Hello?
[01:14.240 --> 01:16.780]  Uh, he won't answer me.
[01:33.150 --> 01:41.710]  I've just had a row with a telephone girl, a telephone girl, my brain's in a whirl.
[01:42.210 --> 01:46.330]  I asked her for a switch, but she lost her head.
[01:46.330 --> 01:50.790]  And somehow she switched me on Northwitch instead.
[01:51.330 --> 02:01.450]  She got so mixed up with the switches, it's true, that I got annoyed and I cried, tell me, do.
[02:02.530 --> 02:06.490]  Which switch is the switch, miss, or if switch?
[02:07.090 --> 02:10.590]  It's the if switch switch which I require.
[02:11.510 --> 02:15.490]  Which switch switch is if switch with this switch?
[02:15.990 --> 02:19.690]  You switched my switch on the wrong wire.
[02:20.430 --> 02:25.610]  You switched me on Northwitch, not if switch.
[02:26.310 --> 02:29.910]  So now to prevent further hitch.
[02:30.470 --> 02:39.050]  If you'll tell me which switch is Northwitch and which switch is if switch, I'll know which switch is which.
[02:48.690 --> 02:53.070]  I begged the young lady to please put me through.
[02:53.490 --> 02:57.630]  I cried, switch me, do, on if switch, to, to.
[02:58.070 --> 03:07.250]  I waited an hour, then the sweet little thing came back from her lunch and exclaimed, did you ring?
[03:07.250 --> 03:14.870]  Then, just as I fancied at last I was through, she cried, have you finished?
[03:15.310 --> 03:17.430]  I said, what, the, the, who?
[03:18.630 --> 03:22.510]  Which switch is the switch, miss, or if switch?
[03:23.170 --> 03:26.550]  It's the if switch switch which I require.
[03:27.750 --> 03:31.490]  Which switch switch is if switch with this switch?
[03:31.970 --> 03:35.730]  You switched my switch on the wrong wire.
[03:35.730 --> 03:41.650]  Well, you switched me on Northwitch, not if switch.
[03:42.350 --> 03:46.010]  So now to prevent further hitch.
[03:46.670 --> 03:54.870]  If you'll tell me which switch is Northwitch and which switch is if switch, I'll know which switch is which.
[04:04.500 --> 04:09.140]  I got through at last and I thought all was well.
[04:09.140 --> 04:13.540]  Brang up my hotel, but more trouble fell.
[04:14.200 --> 04:18.320]  I said, can you fix me a table for two?
[04:19.060 --> 04:21.920]  A voice said, we can, sir.
[04:22.240 --> 04:24.820]  But this is the do.
[04:25.380 --> 04:30.060]  I murmured a prayer, then I fainted away.
[04:30.060 --> 04:40.880]  And when I came round, I was trying to say, Which switch is the switch, miss, or if switch?
[04:41.520 --> 04:45.080]  It's the if switch switch which I require.
[04:46.340 --> 04:50.160]  Which switch switch is if switch with this switch?
[04:50.160 --> 04:54.500]  You switch my switch on the wrong wire.
[04:55.340 --> 05:00.420]  You switch me on Northwitch, not if switch.
[05:01.120 --> 05:04.940]  So now to prevent further hitch.
[05:05.620 --> 05:14.060]  If you tell me which switch is Northwitch and which switch is if switch, I'll know which switch is which.
[05:15.600 --> 05:22.400]  Yeah, something from 1915 here on Off the Hook, which switch is if switch.
[05:22.760 --> 05:31.900]  And ordinarily, that would be a lot of fun to play on the radio, but it gave us a little bit of time just to collect our thoughts and move ahead with today's show, which is going to be very unusual.
[05:31.900 --> 05:35.940]  I know a lot of people are kind of flustered.
[05:35.940 --> 05:43.820]  I'm among them because we have not been able to devote time to the topics, the important topics that Off the Hook is all about.
[05:44.860 --> 05:49.900]  But let me just say that there is no more important topic than the future of the radio station.
[05:50.060 --> 05:57.340]  It's, I suppose, comparable to if we were doing this radio program on, say, a boat and the boat was springing a leak.
[05:57.340 --> 06:01.380]  Well, would we continue doing the show or would we try to stop the leak or at least let people know about it?
[06:01.840 --> 06:07.900]  You know, it's kind of a self-preservation type of a thing and something that we don't take very lightly here.
[06:08.600 --> 06:23.240]  Today is a very interesting day in that, as we speak currently at this very moment, there are people outside the radio station, outside in the street and outside in the hallway that have come here for a local advisory board meeting.
[06:23.240 --> 06:29.940]  They have not been allowed in the radio station, which is part of the new policy of not letting a local advisory board meet here.
[06:30.320 --> 06:32.040]  That has resulted in a confrontation.
[06:32.040 --> 06:33.620]  There are police everywhere.
[06:33.860 --> 06:35.300]  There are police inside the station.
[06:35.300 --> 06:36.280]  I was shocked.
[06:36.360 --> 06:37.320]  I took a couple of pictures of them.
[06:37.400 --> 06:39.440]  They were actually inside the studios.
[06:40.160 --> 06:45.080]  And it was really not a very good thing to have greet me as I came in today.
[06:45.520 --> 06:50.300]  As I speak, there are several dozen people camped out by the elevators chanting.
[06:50.600 --> 06:54.180]  We're going to be hearing from them in the next hour.
[06:55.140 --> 07:01.580]  Outside, even more people at 120 Wall Street, surrounded by police, this is heating up, folks.
[07:01.660 --> 07:04.420]  This is really getting to be quite a situation.
[07:06.240 --> 07:09.340]  We'd be remiss not to tell you about this, obviously.
[07:09.660 --> 07:17.820]  And I think it's the obligation of anybody who is doing live radio here to let people know what's going on with the live radio, with the actual radio station.
[07:18.920 --> 07:25.680]  Before we get into the program, I'd like to read something that was in this week's Time magazine, which, you know, that's a pretty...
[07:25.680 --> 07:27.220]  Each week it gets a little bigger, you know.
[07:27.300 --> 07:33.220]  It starts off with, you know, small newspapers, then city newspapers, now it's national magazines.
[07:34.280 --> 07:35.640]  This is a very interesting piece.
[07:35.760 --> 07:37.820]  It's called This Just In, We're Fired.
[07:38.140 --> 07:41.480]  On election day, with a certain relative of his running for the U.S.
[07:41.580 --> 07:46.980]  Senate, the commander-in-chief surprised New York radio stations by calling with the genial get-out-the-vote message.
[07:47.180 --> 07:56.060]  But Clinton's goodwill wagon lost an axle when he called WBAI in Manhattan and was put on the air with Amy Goodman, host of a Pacifica radio program called Democracy Now.
[07:56.580 --> 08:01.580]  Goodman, an award-winning rabble-rouser whose show is carried by 30-some stations, does not have a change-up.
[08:01.660 --> 08:04.140]  She only has fastballs and she throws at the head.
[08:04.420 --> 08:12.100]  For 30 minutes, she kept Clinton dancing and ducking, at one point accusing him of being responsible for the genocide of 5,000 Iraqi children monthly through U.S.
[08:12.160 --> 08:12.500]  sanctions.
[08:12.960 --> 08:15.400]  It was vintage Pacifica radio.
[08:16.900 --> 08:17.780]  Sorry, was something happening?
[08:18.160 --> 08:20.280]  It looks like there's a confrontation right outside.
[08:21.180 --> 08:21.980]  Okay, well...
[08:23.740 --> 08:26.240]  We're going to send you out in the thick of it, Alex, so...
[08:27.820 --> 08:29.720]  If something happens, just head out there and then...
[08:29.720 --> 08:34.940]  It looks like someone tried to run into the station and was stopped by the security people.
[08:34.960 --> 08:37.060]  It looks like it's still pretty tense out there right now.
[08:37.840 --> 08:47.340]  One thing I hope people remember is that many of us, although we may be on different sides of the fence here, we are still in the radio family, and I hope people can remember that.
[08:47.980 --> 08:49.420]  And stick to the issues.
[08:49.700 --> 08:50.820]  Keep the personalities out of it.
[08:50.900 --> 08:58.580]  Stick to the issues, because there are some very important issues here, and we're going to be delving into those and giving the listeners an opportunity to speak as well.
[08:58.880 --> 09:00.600]  Let me quickly finish up with this story.
[09:02.720 --> 09:11.840]  It was vintage Pacifica radio, the hell-raising, corporate-bashing voice of the left for a half-century with stations in Los Angeles, Houston, and Washington, in addition to WBAI and the flagship KPFA in Berkeley.
[09:11.840 --> 09:20.960]  But that voice is now being muffled in a way that would embarrass the sandal-wearing founders of the non-profit Pacifica Foundation, some of whom now stage their sit-ins in the next life.
[09:21.820 --> 09:29.380]  Dreaded capitalists have commandeered the ship, speaking the bottom-line language of Arbitron ratings and floating the idea of raking in millions by selling a station.
[09:29.560 --> 09:37.440]  They literally changed the locks and barred several employees from the building at WBAI last month after doing the same thing two years ago at KPFA.
[09:37.440 --> 09:45.360]  The irony is richest at WBAI, where the program director and others were fired without warning on December 22nd in the, quote, Christmas coup, unquote.
[09:45.920 --> 09:47.400]  So much for democracy now.
[09:47.660 --> 09:56.260]  Many are calling it a political purge, says Goodman, who has been feuding with management over what she regards as attempts to turn her bark into a yip that would be more palatable to more listeners.
[09:56.480 --> 10:05.180]  She has lamented the firings on air, and 300 loyal listeners marched last week demanding that the commercial-free and listener-supported station be returned to its rightful owner, them.
[10:05.180 --> 10:06.840]  And they're in the divide.
[10:07.060 --> 10:15.620]  Some of the 18 members of the National Board want centralized control of a network that would reach a broader audience and rival National Public Radio in prestige.
[10:16.140 --> 10:23.460]  That was never a goal when the board was thick with community activists from the five local boards who were committed to local programming unavailable in the mainstream press.
[10:24.180 --> 10:33.540]  But National Board members are now recruited from the business world instead of the protest lines, and although they consider themselves progressives, their wiring is different.
[10:34.520 --> 10:47.000]  Pacifica has 800,000 listeners, and after 50 years of being on the air, that's just not good enough, says Board Chair David Acosta, a Houston CPA, Vice Chairman Ken Ford, an engineer with the Conservative Housing Trade Association in Washington.
[10:47.560 --> 10:53.600]  Conservative people on the Pacifica board says the challenge is to honor the social justice mission while Pacifica grows.
[10:53.860 --> 10:57.260]  But, and this is the telling statement, we are a corporation.
[10:57.260 --> 10:59.820]  It's a non-profit, but we have to operate as a business.
[11:00.640 --> 11:07.680]  To Palo Alto, California, board member Thomas Maughan, it's operating more like a totalitarian government.
[11:07.680 --> 11:10.400]  He's among six dissenters who insist they're being locked out.
[11:10.620 --> 11:22.060]  Matthew Lazara, a professor at the University of California at Riverside, who wrote a book about Pacifica, says the longtime advocate for openness and democracy is running itself, quote, in a way that could be described as secrecy and fiat, unquote.
[11:22.360 --> 11:27.200]  The retooling comes after a consultant sniffed that Pacifica's impact has gone from, quote,
[11:39.400 --> 11:41.620]  What's significant here is that was not a quote.
[11:41.740 --> 11:43.400]  That's the guy from Time Magazine saying this.
[11:43.480 --> 11:44.160]  I'm going to read it one more time.
[11:44.160 --> 11:46.940]  If they paid this guy 25 cents, they were robbed.
[11:47.180 --> 11:54.040]  What's irrelevant is the numbing prattle of indistinguishable loudmouths who populate ratings-driven broadcast media.
[11:55.060 --> 11:56.340]  Everything is numbers today.
[11:56.540 --> 11:59.900]  The weekend box office, the president's approval ratings, the quarterly profits.
[12:00.120 --> 12:06.140]  For 50 years, there was one place where numbers did not exist as a measure of success or as validation of purpose.
[12:06.520 --> 12:10.780]  Pacifica broadcasting can be tedious at times with its tie-dyed version of truth and justice.
[12:10.780 --> 12:14.280]  But the voice is indignant, probing, and unapologetic.
[12:14.420 --> 12:18.860]  And in the age of mega-media conglomerization, an alternative view is a necessity.
[12:19.140 --> 12:23.520]  And I say this as someone who went on WBAI last year knowing I'd be a punching bag.
[12:23.680 --> 12:31.140]  I'd written a screed about misguided support for convicted cop-killer Mamiya Abu-Jamal and was attacked on air as a lazy corporate media hack.
[12:31.620 --> 12:34.620]  They were wrong, of course, but they were damn good at it.
[12:36.180 --> 12:39.220]  And that's a damn good article, I must say, from Time magazine this week.
[12:40.060 --> 12:48.940]  And I think it goes to show that while you may not agree with everything that goes out over the airwaves here at WBAI, it's damn important that it stay right where it is.
[12:49.600 --> 12:56.300]  We have joining us today a very special guest from the evil Pacifica National Board, not-so-evil Leslie Kagan.
[12:56.700 --> 12:57.720]  Welcome to our studios.
[12:57.960 --> 13:00.020]  I hope you didn't get injured getting in before.
[13:00.380 --> 13:01.420]  No, no, no problem.
[13:01.640 --> 13:04.380]  How many people are on the Pacifica National Board?
[13:04.500 --> 13:07.280]  There are, at this point, 18 people.
[13:07.280 --> 13:09.260]  How did you manage to get on the Pacifica National Board?
[13:09.260 --> 13:12.740]  Well, that's a bit of a modern-day miracle, I guess.
[13:13.280 --> 13:25.620]  What happened was that last February, when the board was obtaining nominations and proposals for new people to bring on, some people were brought to the board meeting.
[13:25.620 --> 13:41.340]  Actually, John Murdoch, who we will come back to in this story, and Bert Lee, and a woman from Texas, Valerie Chambers, none of whom had been interviewed by anybody or gone through any kind of nominating process from anywhere.
[13:41.340 --> 13:59.960]  I and Beth Lyons, also from the New York area, had actually been nominated by the local advisory board here in New York, who has no formal right, because of a bylaw change that was made two years ago at the national level, to actually designate us, you know,
[14:00.000 --> 14:03.840]  to go to the national board, but they did have the right to nominate us and put us forth.
[14:04.020 --> 14:09.780]  And we went through a whole interview process and submitted resumes and et cetera, so our names were also being brought to the meeting.
[14:10.180 --> 14:25.860]  What happened was that John Murdoch and Bert Lee, not only were their names brought to the meeting, but they were actually brought to the meeting totally out of any reasonable process and not in line with the steps that had usually been taken to bring people onto the board.
[14:26.400 --> 14:38.100]  So there was a big struggle at that board meeting, and a compromise was worked out, that they could get those three people on, even though they hadn't gone through any process, and Beth and I would also be admitted.
[14:38.260 --> 14:42.500]  So we sort of got in kind of under the radar as part of a compromise deal.
[14:42.640 --> 14:49.720]  So now that you are on the board, does that mean that you're privy to the meetings that are going on, to all these secret plots that are supposedly happening?
[14:49.940 --> 14:51.360]  Well, no, actually.
[14:51.560 --> 14:54.600]  It's a most interesting process.
[14:54.600 --> 15:04.780]  I've been an activist and an organizer in progressive social change movements for more than 30 years now, and I've never been involved in anything quite like this.
[15:05.220 --> 15:29.080]  And again, I believe that at its core, the mission of Pacifica, in addition to being committed to community-based radio and free speech radio and corporate free radio, the other heart, the other piece of the anchor of what Pacifica is all about is a commitment to helping to nurture the progressive social change movements in this country.
[15:29.080 --> 15:35.960]  And so there is a link between the work that I've done over many, many years and my wanting to be on this board.
[15:36.160 --> 15:46.600]  Anyway, I say all that because I have never, in all my years of organizing, been in a situation where things are so top-down, so controlled by a small number of people.
[15:46.680 --> 15:56.520]  I can't even get not only I, but there's a group of six of us who constitute ourselves as a kind of dissident core within that 18.
[15:56.520 --> 15:58.500]  I mean, we can't get any information.
[15:59.300 --> 16:00.320]  So that's six out of 18.
[16:00.320 --> 16:01.200]  That's a third.
[16:01.680 --> 16:02.020]  Yes.
[16:02.140 --> 16:03.720]  And you're saying you have no voice, no power.
[16:03.860 --> 16:04.100]  Right.
[16:04.360 --> 16:06.860]  Well, we have some voice at the actual meetings.
[16:07.320 --> 16:09.100]  That is when we're called upon.
[16:09.320 --> 16:09.420]  Right.
[16:09.460 --> 16:19.920]  The first meeting I went to, several times during the meeting, I raised my hand and either was ignored or would be called upon and suggest, you know, can we discuss this, that, or the other thing.
[16:20.100 --> 16:23.580]  And without even blinking an eye, I was ruled out of order.
[16:23.680 --> 16:24.700]  How often do they have meetings?
[16:24.700 --> 16:29.060]  The meetings are mandated to be at least three times a year.
[16:29.280 --> 16:30.440]  They can be more often.
[16:30.620 --> 16:36.720]  And, in fact, back in October, the last full board meeting was in September, in mid-September in Washington.
[16:37.020 --> 16:44.760]  And in October, when the news blew wide open about the kind of harassment that Amy Goodman and the whole Democracy Now!
[16:44.840 --> 16:53.060]  team was under, several of us, you know, this group of dissidents on the national board started calling for an emergency national board meeting.
[16:53.060 --> 17:05.880]  We thought that that situation, which is not yet resolved, they still are under tremendous assault and attack, that that warranted the convening of an emergency national board meeting.
[17:06.000 --> 17:13.000]  We, again, have called for it in terms of what's been going on in the last month or so here in New York at WBAI.
[17:13.000 --> 17:32.640]  We think the changing of locks in the middle of the night, the firing of people without any explanation, without any due process, without any input from producers or listeners or the local advisory board, the banning of people from the station, people who have for years volunteered day in and day out here being banned,
[17:32.960 --> 17:35.200]  again, without any explanation, without any reason.
[17:35.200 --> 17:41.460]  And all of that rises, in my mind anyway, to the level of a crisis situation.
[17:41.800 --> 17:45.780]  And that alone should have been enough reason to convene an emergency board meeting.
[17:45.900 --> 17:49.960]  I understand there's a conference call scheduled for tomorrow, though.
[17:50.240 --> 17:50.720]  Finally.
[17:51.140 --> 18:00.640]  Finally, what happened was that last week, the sixth sentence issued a public statement about the situation here in New York at WBAI.
[18:00.640 --> 18:09.320]  And we reiterated again at the beginning of that statement that we had been calling for an emergency national board meeting for weeks, and it got no answer.
[18:09.660 --> 18:14.200]  Literally two days after that statement was released, we got a call.
[18:14.320 --> 18:23.320]  Actually, as we were in the process of releasing it, and we shared it with the other national board people, we asked them, does anybody want to sign the statement with us?
[18:23.320 --> 18:26.840]  Maybe, you know, somebody else on the board would join a group of residents.
[18:27.380 --> 18:35.980]  And in that process, obviously, somebody made a decision to convene an emergency, or it's not even called that, but a conference call tomorrow.
[18:36.280 --> 18:42.960]  But we have not been able to find out what the agenda is, or even how long the call will go for.
[18:43.120 --> 18:45.200]  What I don't understand is, who sets the agenda?
[18:45.340 --> 18:47.280]  How do they get to be the person that sets the agenda?
[18:47.420 --> 18:47.760]  How does that work?
[18:47.760 --> 18:52.780]  Well, there is a leadership body, and I use that word with great hesitation.
[18:53.140 --> 18:56.360]  I think leadership means more than just being in charge.
[18:56.420 --> 19:14.400]  But there is a group of people that have the authority, the chair, the vice chair, the treasurer, the secretary, and also the person who's now the head of the governance committee, that's John Murdoch, who I mentioned before, I believe are all involved.
[19:14.400 --> 19:30.900]  I don't know that they have meetings, but I'm quite confident that they talk to each other and that they're in discussion with Betsy Walsh, who is the national executive director of Pacifica and the person who came here and actually did the firings and did the changing of the locks.
[19:30.900 --> 19:31.520]  Mm-hmm.
[19:32.460 --> 19:49.740]  This morning on a very widely heard radio program, it was mentioned by the co-host of that program that the station should be sold, that he would recommend to the Pacifica National Board as an employee that the station should be sold because our differences have become so irreconcilable.
[19:50.220 --> 19:54.260]  Do you think that's a real possibility, that the Pacifica Board is considering this?
[19:54.300 --> 19:57.880]  Do you think that that kind of a statement would actually move them further in that direction?
[19:57.880 --> 19:59.600]  Well, I don't know.
[19:59.840 --> 20:03.800]  You know, it's certainly one of the cards that they have that they can pull out.
[20:04.160 --> 20:13.000]  The licenses for the five stations that make up the Pacifica Network are owned by and therefore controlled by the national board.
[20:13.240 --> 20:22.120]  So the license, which is actually what they would be able to sell, the license with WBAI is in the hands of the Pacifica National Board.
[20:22.120 --> 20:26.420]  So technically, legally, yes, they have that option to sell it.
[20:26.920 --> 20:28.760]  I don't think they will now.
[20:28.880 --> 20:30.500]  That's not actually my biggest fear.
[20:30.680 --> 20:38.460]  Other people do think they will, partially because there are three lawsuits now moving through the court system that are in play.
[20:38.580 --> 20:55.100]  And I think, I mean, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know this for sure, but my common sense tells me that with those lawsuits in play, it would certainly slow down any kind of sale process and make a sale of a station that's valued at anywhere between $150 and $200 million.
[20:55.900 --> 20:59.520]  It would definitely slow down the process and not stop it altogether.
[20:59.840 --> 21:13.900]  I'm equally concerned, or I should say actually right now, more concerned that what they will do or attempt to do here at BAI is what they've already done at the Washington Station and the Houston Station, and that has turned them basically into all music stations,
[21:14.060 --> 21:20.620]  that they will so gut to the content of what's going on that even if they don't sell it, it won't be the same Pacifica.
[21:20.620 --> 21:22.080]  Let's go into history just a little bit, though.
[21:22.180 --> 21:25.860]  There are five stations, Berkeley, New York, Houston, Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles.
[21:26.000 --> 21:32.180]  Now, the three stations that you just made reference to, Los Angeles, Houston, and D.C., they now are primarily music stations.
[21:32.180 --> 21:35.140]  No, actually, the Los Angeles station is still mixed.
[21:35.140 --> 21:35.680]  It is, okay.
[21:35.860 --> 21:37.600]  There's still a fair amount of public affairs.
[21:37.620 --> 21:38.480]  But Washington, D.C.
[21:38.600 --> 21:38.840]  is jazz.
[21:38.840 --> 21:40.820]  But Washington is overwhelmingly jazz station.
[21:40.820 --> 21:43.340]  And Houston is country and western, if you can believe that.
[21:43.380 --> 21:43.860]  And it's shocking.
[21:43.880 --> 21:52.920]  The Houston station, I just learned this, at one point a number of years ago, had programs that broadcast in as many as nine different languages.
[21:53.280 --> 21:55.520]  Now, all the broadcasts are only in English.
[21:55.700 --> 22:08.000]  In fact, a couple of years ago, during the KPFA crisis, we read a letter that was posted, I think I might be the one you're referring to, that listed all the programs on KPFT in Houston that had existed and no longer exist, and now it's called The Sound of Texas,
[22:08.020 --> 22:09.260]  and they play country and western music.
[22:09.480 --> 22:10.780]  How did such a thing happen?
[22:10.900 --> 22:12.300]  Was that a gradual process?
[22:12.500 --> 22:14.960]  Did they just overnight change the locks there and change the format?
[22:15.200 --> 22:18.480]  Well, no, I don't believe it was an overnight thing.
[22:18.480 --> 22:23.880]  It was a more gradual kind of chipping away at this show, then that show, then this show, then that show.
[22:23.880 --> 22:40.260]  But I think over the last few years, what we've seen is this event, again, this very kind of what I think of as a corporate organizational style, very top-down, very centralized, more concerned about the bottom line than about the content.
[22:40.540 --> 22:42.640]  And, of course, the bottom line is important.
[22:42.780 --> 22:43.640]  Money is important.
[22:43.840 --> 22:51.580]  We need to have money to pay salaries, to pay the electric bills, to buy the tape and keep the equipment.
[22:51.820 --> 22:57.020]  So no one is suggesting that we want to bankrupt this station or the network.
[22:57.380 --> 22:58.920]  But it's not about...
[22:58.920 --> 22:59.700]  It's not a business.
[23:00.000 --> 23:06.860]  We need money in order to do the work of this community-based, free-speech, corporate-free radio station.
[23:07.180 --> 23:10.020]  And that's a very different headset than running a business.
[23:10.600 --> 23:26.660]  But what happened is, slowly, over the last several years, five or six years, really, people who either were on the board, who had actually come through the original way that people got on the national board, or most people did, was being designated by their local advisory boards.
[23:26.800 --> 23:43.980]  So some of those people actually came through that process, had a change of heart, and started functioning, not in the best interest of a long history of, you know, being responsible back to the stations that they came from, but started to think more of themselves as,
[23:44.300 --> 23:45.580]  quote, the national leaders.
[23:45.580 --> 23:53.480]  And I think that, Matt, kicked in alongside with bringing on some people who really come directly out of the business world.
[23:53.740 --> 23:56.220]  And that combination was quite deadly.
[23:56.820 --> 23:58.680]  And continues to be so to this day.
[23:58.900 --> 24:04.160]  This has turned into something that we never really thought we'd see to this degree.
[24:04.280 --> 24:05.960]  I mean, we knew something was on the horizon.
[24:06.120 --> 24:10.000]  We knew something was going to be addressed at one point.
[24:10.000 --> 24:16.260]  But, again, to update people, currently we have a couple dozen people outside in the hallway.
[24:16.260 --> 24:18.680]  We have many more outside in the street.
[24:18.680 --> 24:20.240]  We have police all over the radio station.
[24:20.520 --> 24:26.280]  And it feels weird to be saying this, but that's the situation as it stands right now.
[24:26.760 --> 24:28.580]  We're continuing here with Off the Hook.
[24:29.380 --> 24:35.760]  I should point out that at no point ever have we been threatened or told not to say certain things on the radio.
[24:35.760 --> 24:48.420]  And I think that shows some degree that the overall guidelines that the Pacifica mission was originally founded for are still to a degree being respected.
[24:48.420 --> 24:51.760]  Not entirely, obviously, because of some of the other shenanigans that have been going on.
[24:51.980 --> 24:55.400]  But I think that's a line that has not yet been crossed.
[24:55.460 --> 24:56.000]  Hopefully never...
[24:56.000 --> 24:57.400]  I see a cop in the station now.
[24:57.540 --> 24:58.600]  I see two cops in the station.
[25:00.740 --> 25:02.740]  And, Alex, here's what we're going to do.
[25:04.780 --> 25:05.640]  You on mic there?
[25:05.760 --> 25:06.320]  Yeah, here I am.
[25:06.600 --> 25:06.820]  All right.
[25:06.880 --> 25:08.480]  You had some trouble getting into the station, too.
[25:08.620 --> 25:09.500]  Yeah, I did, actually.
[25:09.660 --> 25:15.420]  When I went down to inform everybody what was going on, the police wouldn't let me back into the station.
[25:15.640 --> 25:16.500]  There were two of them.
[25:16.620 --> 25:18.760]  I was stopped as I tried to enter.
[25:19.300 --> 25:22.020]  And it wasn't until you came back down that I...
[25:22.020 --> 25:23.000]  I told the cops what to do.
[25:23.060 --> 25:23.880]  I can't believe they listened to me.
[25:23.880 --> 25:24.380]  You did.
[25:24.640 --> 25:25.260]  That's amazing.
[25:25.400 --> 25:27.860]  Okay, I'm calling the phone now that you're going to pick up.
[25:28.000 --> 25:28.280]  Okay.
[25:28.780 --> 25:29.060]  Okay.
[25:29.380 --> 25:29.800]  Thank you.
[25:29.880 --> 25:32.500]  Now, I'm going to send you out into the fray there.
[25:32.760 --> 25:33.360]  Oh, boy.
[25:33.460 --> 25:34.780]  And you're going to tell us what's going on.
[25:34.960 --> 25:37.260]  And go out into the hallway and find out what's going on with the people there.
[25:37.500 --> 25:37.680]  I'm going.
[25:37.680 --> 25:39.840]  If I could just set it up a little bit.
[25:40.100 --> 25:49.740]  The reason why people are out there is that the local advisory board which had a meeting two weeks ago which they were not allowed to have here in the station.
[25:50.080 --> 25:53.580]  And for years I was on the local advisory board from 87 to 90.
[25:53.860 --> 26:02.240]  So I know certainly then and even years before that every single meeting of the local advisory board has always been in the station wherever the station was.
[26:02.360 --> 26:15.260]  And for the first time I mean, anyone's memory, Utrecht's lead, the interim general manager, told the local advisory board that they could not have their January 9th meeting here at the station because there would be, quote, unauthorized listeners.
[26:15.540 --> 26:18.660]  I think she probably meant listeners who were not authorized to come...
[26:18.660 --> 26:19.140]  Unauthorized listeners.
[26:19.620 --> 26:27.160]  But anyway, she didn't want people coming in because things were tense and there could be a threat to property damage or whatever.
[26:27.280 --> 26:29.620]  So they were banned from coming into the station.
[26:29.620 --> 26:36.380]  At that meeting, the local advisory board decided to meet again tonight here at the station to have an open meeting.
[26:36.720 --> 26:43.120]  Utrecht has made it clear that they could meet here if they did not invite the listeners, if it was not an open meeting.
[26:43.480 --> 26:54.260]  Of course, the catch-22 in all that is that by, according to FCC regulations, the LABs, the listener advisory boards, have to be open to the public.
[26:54.260 --> 26:59.000]  You can't have a meeting that's closed to the public unless it's an executive session.
[26:59.000 --> 27:05.360]  And you can only have one in executive session if you're talking about finances or personnel issues.
[27:05.580 --> 27:07.940]  And neither of those items are on the agenda for tonight.
[27:08.260 --> 27:15.400]  So when the folks got here, there was an agreement worked out that the local advisory board members would be led upstairs.
[27:15.400 --> 27:18.440]  And each one of them could bring one person.
[27:19.380 --> 27:32.340]  And when they came upstairs, Utrecht came out into the building lobby right in front of the elevators and claimed that she had never heard about the meeting, that she didn't get the certified letter which was sent.
[27:32.740 --> 27:33.880]  You know, maybe she didn't get it.
[27:34.080 --> 27:35.260]  You know, I have no idea.
[27:37.400 --> 27:41.800]  But finally, she said, you know, we could all come in, except that Janice K.
[27:41.940 --> 27:48.660]  Bryant, who is one of the band people from the station, was part of the group, and that she couldn't come in.
[27:48.880 --> 27:51.560]  So then the group said, no, it's either everybody or nobody.
[27:51.720 --> 27:55.580]  Went back and forth, you know, with some shouting back and forth.
[27:55.800 --> 27:56.760]  The police arrived.
[27:56.960 --> 27:58.040]  The police left.
[27:58.180 --> 27:59.380]  The police seemed to be back.
[28:00.060 --> 28:08.060]  And, you know, I've been in the studio now for a little more than half an hour, so I don't know what the latest is, but that's sort of the background of how we got here.
[28:08.060 --> 28:09.420]  Okay, we're going to go to Alex now.
[28:09.520 --> 28:10.220]  Alex, you're out in the hallway.
[28:10.320 --> 28:11.220]  What's going on out there?
[28:11.480 --> 28:16.720]  Okay, I don't know if anybody can hear me, but you can probably hear what's going on outside of here.
[28:17.460 --> 28:18.080]  Hey, ho-ho!
[28:18.300 --> 28:20.140]  The corporate board has got to go!
[28:20.400 --> 28:20.640]  Hey, hey!
[28:20.980 --> 28:21.640]  Ho-ho!
[28:22.060 --> 28:24.900]  If you can't tell, we're all shouting, hey, ho-ho!
[28:25.260 --> 28:27.580]  The corporate board has got to go.
[28:28.600 --> 28:33.920]  There's about three police outside here right now, and probably about 30 listeners.
[28:35.420 --> 28:38.440]  And I've got to move back because it's really difficult to hear.
[28:41.340 --> 28:43.920]  But the police are just sort of milling around.
[28:44.240 --> 28:47.360]  Everybody's happy to... everybody's continuing to chant.
[28:47.500 --> 28:49.300]  So it's a peaceful situation there.
[28:49.380 --> 28:50.680]  It's incredibly peaceful.
[28:50.860 --> 28:52.080]  There's no threats here at all.
[28:53.140 --> 28:55.500]  Everybody's... actually, there's people that are sitting down there.
[28:55.720 --> 29:02.640]  Probably about six or seven people that are camped out right outside the door of the station, sitting down Indian-style in the semicircle.
[29:02.640 --> 29:05.780]  And those are the people that are chanting loudest right now.
[29:06.040 --> 29:12.140]  There's probably about three people guarding the doors, and the cops are pretty much dispersed throughout the entire hall.
[29:13.180 --> 29:19.840]  There's a lot of people here with microphones, people with video cameras, all sorts of people here.
[29:20.500 --> 29:22.440]  This is all being taped.
[29:22.640 --> 29:23.300]  It's being broadcast.
[29:24.960 --> 29:26.600]  It's pretty difficult to hear.
[29:27.080 --> 29:27.480]  Yeah.
[29:27.940 --> 29:28.340]  Yeah.
[29:28.880 --> 29:31.740]  Well, it's certainly going to be a well-documented protest, that's for sure.
[29:32.220 --> 29:33.380]  Yeah, it definitely is.
[29:33.540 --> 29:36.680]  When media people come to protest something, they bring their recorders.
[29:37.000 --> 29:37.580]  Yeah, they do.
[29:37.920 --> 29:39.380]  There's quite a lot of them over here.
[29:39.460 --> 29:42.240]  Now, there are even more people downstairs outside the studio, from what I understand.
[29:42.340 --> 29:42.480]  There are.
[29:42.580 --> 29:45.500]  There's probably about another 30 or 40 people outside.
[29:45.720 --> 29:46.000]  Uh-huh.
[29:46.400 --> 29:48.580]  With more arriving by the minute, I would imagine.
[29:49.580 --> 29:52.520]  Now, I take it there's no meeting going on anywhere, then?
[29:53.080 --> 29:54.760]  There's no meeting going on anywhere.
[29:54.940 --> 29:57.020]  I mean, there's just people meeting out here and chanting.
[29:57.220 --> 29:59.380]  The meeting was prevented from going on.
[29:59.520 --> 29:59.760]  Uh-huh.
[30:00.000 --> 30:04.120]  And I think that everybody here has realized that the meeting is not going to go on.
[30:04.200 --> 30:10.460]  They've directed their activities against the corporate board, which is probably a good idea.
[30:10.760 --> 30:11.000]  Uh-huh.
[30:12.420 --> 30:18.160]  Well, why don't you see if there's anybody there that wants to talk to us while we continue the discussion here in the studio.
[30:18.580 --> 30:19.800]  We'll come back to you in about a minute or so.
[30:19.980 --> 30:20.340]  Is that right?
[30:20.400 --> 30:21.140]  That's a good idea.
[30:21.360 --> 30:21.600]  Okay.
[30:22.600 --> 30:23.460]  I wanted to...
[30:23.460 --> 30:26.740]  We're talking with Leslie Kagan from the Pacifica National Board here, live in the studios.
[30:27.600 --> 30:29.360]  I wanted to ask you...
[30:29.360 --> 30:31.460]  There was something that was said over the air this morning.
[30:31.500 --> 30:32.720]  I'm going to quote it.
[30:32.760 --> 30:39.000]  I'm not going to get into personalities as to who the person was or, you know, they're standing on the planet or anything like that.
[30:39.000 --> 30:45.500]  I'm just going to read you this, and you tell me what you think, because this is something that I've heard bandied about in various forums.
[30:45.980 --> 30:47.320]  And this is what was said.
[30:47.320 --> 30:51.920]  There are a faction of people who say, we don't want black women making decisions anymore.
[30:51.940 --> 31:05.620]  We want people who are soft and malleable and who will go along with the program as it is dictated by a small group of dissident whites whose intention is to recreate the power structure of this station and to eliminate ever the possibility again that black voices here,
[31:05.740 --> 31:09.560]  particularly black female voices, will be part of the decision-making process.
[31:11.560 --> 31:20.540]  Now, I'm kind of in awe hearing a statement like that, especially knowing that I think every single one of the people who were banned was black.
[31:20.560 --> 31:23.580]  Well, the three people fired were all black.
[31:23.780 --> 31:26.720]  Two were women and one man.
[31:27.160 --> 31:33.840]  The five, I believe it's five people who now have been banned were mixed, some African-American and some white.
[31:34.920 --> 31:38.780]  I think that that is the worst analysis.
[31:38.920 --> 31:41.820]  I don't even want to use a word like that.
[31:41.940 --> 31:45.240]  The worst spin that I've ever heard on a situation.
[31:46.140 --> 31:53.140]  It is name-calling of the worst sort without any content, without any basis in reality.
[31:54.020 --> 32:02.660]  I dare say I should go so far as to say that it's playing the race card in a way that I find extremely problematic, extremely troublesome.
[32:03.120 --> 32:05.220]  I'm a white person, that's true.
[32:06.020 --> 32:08.400]  And many white people are involved in this.
[32:08.560 --> 32:10.200]  But it's not only white people.
[32:10.340 --> 32:16.480]  If you go out in the hallway right now, there are quite a number of African-Americans and Latinos there as well.
[32:17.220 --> 32:24.040]  Again, it's not just a question of who's been fired, but it's also a question, or a ban from the station, but also who the listeners are.
[32:24.200 --> 32:29.280]  And there's one thing that WBAI has done over the years in diversifying its program.
[32:29.280 --> 32:31.660]  It's also very much diversified the audience.
[32:31.780 --> 32:34.540]  And the audience at WBAI is not monolithic.
[32:34.740 --> 32:35.380]  That's right, that's right.
[32:35.440 --> 32:43.320]  That's one thing I've learned by working here and also by going to the various demonstrations, just how varied and multicultural our audience and our family here at the radio station is.
[32:43.420 --> 32:52.020]  And I really, I have to condemn in the strongest terms people who would say such a thing, who would try and create a situation that simply does not exist here.
[32:53.000 --> 32:56.460]  And that to me is true racism when something like that is said.
[32:56.620 --> 32:58.360]  Alex, you're waving frantically.
[32:58.660 --> 32:59.020]  What's...
[32:59.700 --> 33:02.640]  Well, he's waving frantically, but he's not holding the phone, so I don't know what that means.
[33:03.000 --> 33:03.660]  Okay, hello?
[33:03.920 --> 33:04.340]  Are we on?
[33:04.440 --> 33:05.580]  Yes, yes, we have somebody.
[33:05.820 --> 33:05.960]  Okay, we're on.
[33:06.060 --> 33:06.340]  Who are you?
[33:06.440 --> 33:07.420]  We're outside the station.
[33:07.660 --> 33:10.460]  There's a group of people standing out in the hall.
[33:10.460 --> 33:17.740]  My name's Ursula Rudenberg, and there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine people sitting in front of the door of the station, ten.
[33:18.620 --> 33:23.680]  We're about half L.A.B., half listeners, and the door is open.
[33:23.680 --> 33:25.000]  We're sitting in front of the door.
[33:26.320 --> 33:30.160]  One person is inside the station and is arguing with the guards.
[33:30.320 --> 33:31.500]  He's been in there for quite a while.
[33:31.880 --> 33:43.240]  And the police are standing at the other end of the hall, and they're discussing something with each other and with the legal advisors, and with Hopte is speaking with one of the officers.
[33:44.380 --> 33:46.400]  And other members of the L.A.B.
[33:46.580 --> 33:48.360]  and listeners are milling around the hall.
[33:49.420 --> 33:53.880]  One of the people in front of the station is in a wheelchair.
[33:55.420 --> 33:57.480]  We have two L.A.B.
[33:57.840 --> 34:04.940]  members are in wheelchairs, and we could use support downstairs in front of the station.
[34:05.060 --> 34:05.860]  On to the station!
[34:05.920 --> 34:06.740]  When we come down.
[34:08.120 --> 34:10.380]  We've been in here for about an hour.
[34:12.620 --> 34:14.160]  And what else should we say?
[34:14.400 --> 34:18.580]  What is it that you are requesting or demanding at this point?
[34:18.680 --> 34:21.080]  We're demanding to be able to...
[34:21.660 --> 34:22.800]  This is WBAI.
[34:22.980 --> 34:27.080]  We're demanding to be able to come into the station to have our regular L.A.B.
[34:27.140 --> 34:27.320]  meeting.
[34:27.320 --> 34:28.540]  I'm going to give you one of the L.A.B.
[34:28.720 --> 34:29.800]  members to speak.
[34:30.140 --> 34:30.960]  Yeah, we're on the air.
[34:31.600 --> 34:33.220]  Okay, who am I speaking with?
[34:33.320 --> 34:34.160]  This is Emanuel Goldstein.
[34:34.200 --> 34:34.580]  Who is this?
[34:34.940 --> 34:38.440]  This is Miguel Maldonado from other vice chairman of the board.
[34:38.620 --> 34:39.660]  Okay, you're live on the air.
[34:40.380 --> 34:41.340]  Oh, I'm on the air.
[34:41.540 --> 34:57.440]  And, well, I just wanted to let all the listeners and concerned friends of WBAI that we are here because the board was not allowed to meet inside the radio station and the conference room as we always did in the past.
[34:57.640 --> 35:09.020]  For almost three years that I've been in the board, we always have our meeting in the conference room and with the listeners and open to the public.
[35:09.780 --> 35:19.000]  And I've been so many years and other people who've been in this board have been always having this meeting in that way.
[35:19.000 --> 35:33.900]  So we are demanding to keep that right for us and the sacrifices that we are doing right now is that we cannot allow WBAI which belongs to all the members.
[35:34.100 --> 35:35.440]  And I want to make that clear.
[35:36.260 --> 35:41.840]  WBAI is not U3's lead, is not Bessie Wash or anybody else.
[35:41.980 --> 35:48.740]  I think this radio station is being supported by New Yorkers and all who are members of the radio station.
[35:48.960 --> 35:54.600]  And we are fighting to keep that right for us to have our meeting with their participation.
[35:55.040 --> 36:02.860]  They are forgetting that WBAI is a non-profit organization and it doesn't belong to anybody.
[36:03.460 --> 36:05.380]  It belongs to the members.
[36:05.680 --> 36:06.920]  It belongs to the listeners.
[36:07.180 --> 36:18.320]  And as a board member, in my case, I would like just to state that clear and we are willing to do peacefully to do whatever it takes to keep the rights open.
[36:18.480 --> 36:18.820]  Thank you.
[36:18.940 --> 36:19.300]  Thank you.
[36:19.440 --> 36:20.220]  Thank you very much.
[36:20.920 --> 36:21.860]  Hi, this is Ursula.
[36:21.880 --> 36:23.020]  I want to say one more thing.
[36:23.020 --> 36:23.360]  Yes, go ahead.
[36:23.460 --> 36:27.240]  I want to make it clear that this has been a completely peaceful demonstration.
[36:28.280 --> 36:30.380]  Nobody has done any acts of violence.
[36:31.600 --> 36:32.040]  Okay.
[36:33.520 --> 36:34.860]  I hear somebody speaking.
[36:34.960 --> 36:36.060]  Here's the police speaking right now.
[36:36.060 --> 36:36.620]  Okay, let's hear that.
[36:36.680 --> 36:42.420]  Essentially by building management to ask you people to leave the building.
[36:44.220 --> 36:52.100]  So we're going to wait another 10, 15 minutes possibly waiting for the arrival of one of our legal representatives as well as a photographer.
[36:52.400 --> 37:13.440]  But at that time, there is a possibility if once we give you normally the standard procedures to issue an order asking people to leave the building voluntarily, if you decline to leave at that time, there is a good possibility that there will be arrests affected.
[37:13.680 --> 37:15.060]  But this is our radio station.
[37:15.360 --> 37:17.180]  How could you arrest us for being an R radio station?
[37:17.680 --> 37:18.400]  Can you hear this?
[37:19.160 --> 37:19.960]  Yeah, we're hearing it fine.
[37:20.480 --> 37:22.300]  That's the direction that we've been told.
[37:22.480 --> 37:23.380]  Right, I'm just...
[37:23.380 --> 37:23.660]  I'm just...
[37:23.660 --> 37:25.720]  You arrested for being an R radio station.
[37:26.540 --> 37:28.360]  You need to make a statement, okay?
[37:28.620 --> 37:29.760]  So thank you very much.
[37:29.860 --> 37:33.240]  I'm just trying to prize you of what's going to take place as I normally do.
[37:33.380 --> 37:34.060]  Thank you very much.
[37:34.140 --> 37:41.640]  I just wanted to let you know, I'll be saying five minutes, especially for a minute, board members and who are...
[37:42.300 --> 37:43.720]  follow our bylaws.
[37:43.960 --> 37:50.420]  We say that we are entitled to have those meetings in the comfort room, which is inside WBAI.
[37:50.540 --> 37:52.120]  And we're going to stay here.
[37:52.400 --> 37:54.320]  Do you give us that 10 minutes or an hour?
[37:54.320 --> 37:55.040]  We're going to stay here.
[37:55.100 --> 37:59.320]  We will move from here because we would like to exercise peacefully that right.
[37:59.620 --> 38:04.240]  Okay, no, no, I understand, but apparently there seems to be a little bit of an impasse this evening.
[38:04.780 --> 38:06.720]  So, okay, the police...
[38:06.720 --> 38:09.300]  No, I'm saying we are legally members of the board, sir.
[38:09.600 --> 38:10.820]  We are members of the board.
[38:11.020 --> 38:12.680]  Okay, the police just walked away right now.
[38:12.800 --> 38:14.120]  They don't want to deal with any more questions.
[38:14.420 --> 38:15.760]  Okay, so we've been given...
[38:19.420 --> 38:21.020]  I'm sorry, I missed that.
[38:21.240 --> 38:24.420]  We've been given about 10 to 15 minutes to have the situation resolved.
[38:24.720 --> 38:30.460]  10 to 15 minutes, and if people do not leave peacefully, there's a good chance that they will be arrested.
[38:30.840 --> 38:35.200]  There's about six or seven people that are adamantly opposed to leaving the building.
[38:35.660 --> 38:37.640]  And that's what one gentleman said.
[38:37.900 --> 38:40.180]  However long you give us, we're going to stay here.
[38:40.280 --> 38:43.000]  It's our right to be here, and you're not going to get us to leave.
[38:43.320 --> 38:48.740]  So it does look like in maybe about 15 minutes, people might be arrested.
[38:49.020 --> 39:03.460]  The police also said that they were going to have their legal counsel, and I don't know who that is, going to come up and, you know, advise people of their rights or whatever their legal counsel does, but I guess just to make sure that nobody's civil rights are trampled on.
[39:03.660 --> 39:08.260]  Well, I've mentioned before, and I've noticed this again tonight, the police do seem very civil, very polite.
[39:08.500 --> 39:12.280]  They are very civil, and he actually answered a lot more questions than I thought.
[39:12.580 --> 39:22.900]  I think part of the reason for that is because they know that these are BAI people, and any slight rudeness would be noticed right away.
[39:23.100 --> 39:25.780]  Well, I think they know they're being broadcast as well.
[39:25.900 --> 39:26.400]  Oh, they know that?
[39:26.560 --> 39:26.880]  Oh, okay.
[39:26.880 --> 39:27.480]  They might.
[39:27.880 --> 39:37.660]  I mean, you can hear a faint echo of it in the station, so they could be being very courteous just because they may have some suspicion that maybe my voice is being broadcast.
[39:37.660 --> 39:40.640]  We'll see what happens at 9 o'clock, assuming we don't continue past then.
[39:40.820 --> 39:41.800]  Leslie, you have something to say?
[39:41.800 --> 39:49.360]  Yeah, I just want to add that actually, I think this whole matter in terms of what's going on right now could be resolved instantly.
[39:50.260 --> 40:02.100]  All that has to happen is that Eutrice Lee has to say, okay, the local advisory board and the listeners who are upstairs here now with the local advisory board are allowed to meet in the conference room.
[40:02.100 --> 40:04.380]  And that would include Janice K.
[40:04.740 --> 40:14.380]  Bryant who would be again at the meeting because she was invited by the local advisory board to give her interpretation, her point of view about what's happening.
[40:14.740 --> 40:20.880]  This whole thing can be resolved in a lot faster than 10 or 15 minutes if that could happen.
[40:21.160 --> 40:25.480]  I think that's a very good point and some yielding has to be done.
[40:26.240 --> 40:32.820]  I think a little bit on both sides because there's been such hardness of rhetoric and lines drawn in the sand.
[40:33.020 --> 40:41.340]  I think we need to get to the point where we actually are talking so that we get someplace because otherwise it's just going to continue like this and we're never going to make any progress.
[40:41.680 --> 40:43.280]  Obviously, there are things that have to be done.
[40:43.420 --> 40:52.180]  There's some very serious problems, especially on the national level that need to be addressed in a very, I think, confrontational way because it is a serious problem.
[40:52.420 --> 41:15.220]  Well, no, I think you're right that it's in these moments when true leadership comes from those people who are willing to bend a little bit and give a little bit and I actually think that the local advisory board has given quite a bit because historically and always the meetings have been open to whoever wanted to come and so they did compromise by saying,
[41:15.360 --> 41:21.740]  okay, we would only bring up, you know, each local advisory board member was allowed to bring up one person and they went with that.
[41:21.880 --> 41:23.700]  That was a compromise from their end.
[41:24.580 --> 41:29.640]  The compromise fell apart when Nutrisis decided that because Janice K.
[41:29.740 --> 41:41.180]  Bryant is a banned person that, you know, she couldn't come in and the LAB people felt that as a matter of principle that they were not going to all go in and leave her outside.
[41:41.480 --> 41:49.380]  Has there been any kind of evidence whatsoever that any of these banned or non-banned people posed some kind of a threat to the actual station?
[41:49.560 --> 41:52.480]  I have not seen or heard any evidence.
[41:52.480 --> 42:12.580]  People have asked Nutrisis many times and Bessie Walsh, too, the executive director of Pacifica, why people were fired and why people were banned and the answer is either the answer is they know why and you need to ask them or the answer is they were fired for cause or banned for cause and then when you ask why,
[42:12.720 --> 42:14.260]  what the cause is, no answer.
[42:14.540 --> 42:26.460]  I know I had a conversation with Bessie Walsh just a few days after the people were fired, after Valerie and Bernard and Sharon were all fired and I asked her why And she said it's a personnel matter.
[42:26.680 --> 42:30.260]  And we have to respect people's privacy, and we're not going to discuss it.
[42:30.720 --> 42:34.660]  But even when they have asked why they've been fired, there's been no answer.
[42:34.860 --> 42:40.600]  Well, I think if the people who are fired want to know why they're fired, it's not a privacy issue anymore, since they want to know.
[42:40.840 --> 42:45.300]  And I think that's the big question that's swirling everywhere, is why.
[42:45.300 --> 43:02.720]  And I also sense from the people out there that it's not necessarily that they want the people put back in the positions they were in, even though the firing is widely seen as something illegitimate, but more so that these decisions be left up to the local station people,
[43:02.820 --> 43:03.600]  the advisory board.
[43:03.600 --> 43:04.140]  Yes.
[43:04.320 --> 43:16.860]  The way the network works, the way Pacifica works, is that the national does have the right and the authority to hire, and therefore fire also, the station managers at each of the general managers at each of the five stations.
[43:17.060 --> 43:23.040]  But then it's the station managers that have the right and the authority and the responsibility to hire staff.
[43:23.420 --> 43:27.460]  And that's always been done in a collective, a cooperative way.
[43:27.460 --> 43:34.360]  Sometimes it's been difficult, sometimes there have been people angry, and these processes can always be a little rocky and rough.
[43:34.680 --> 43:47.900]  But there's always been a vehicle for the local advisory board, the people who actually work at the station, both paid and unpaid, producers at the station, and listeners to have some input into this process.
[43:48.060 --> 43:49.920]  None of this happened in this instance.
[43:50.540 --> 43:52.540]  Okay, well, there's plenty of input going on outside in the hallway.
[43:52.700 --> 43:54.460]  I don't know if... Alex, are you still out there?
[43:54.620 --> 43:56.020]  Okay, what's the situation now?
[43:56.020 --> 43:57.320]  Nobody's left yet.
[43:57.440 --> 43:58.480]  Everybody's still standing.
[43:59.500 --> 44:01.400]  Most people are just talking now.
[44:01.540 --> 44:03.120]  There's no chanting going on.
[44:03.260 --> 44:05.460]  I mean, there was for a little while.
[44:06.820 --> 44:12.880]  There's actually... I think two of the police have left right now, and there's still two up here.
[44:13.840 --> 44:15.520]  I don't know where they went.
[44:16.180 --> 44:17.920]  It doesn't seem like anybody's leaving.
[44:18.140 --> 44:25.940]  Okay, my only concern is that this is going to stretch past the time when we're off, and I'm not sure if the programs after us will be covering.
[44:26.020 --> 44:31.100]  So we definitely need to have a forum by which people can find out what's going on here.
[44:31.360 --> 44:32.480]  I agree with you entirely.
[44:33.400 --> 44:45.300]  Now, it seems like, well, if the 15 minutes, that would give us probably about five, maybe like seven or eight minutes left in the show if they do hold true to their 15-minute mark, and then you're out.
[44:45.300 --> 44:51.160]  Okay, well, we'll keep an eye on that and see what's going on, and if it's at all possible for us to stretch past the hour, we'll do that.
[44:51.940 --> 44:55.180]  And we're going to take some phone calls now, 212-209-2900.
[44:55.760 --> 45:01.580]  We're speaking with Pacifica National Board Member Leslie Kagan, dissident Pacifica National Board Member.
[45:01.640 --> 45:03.100]  I guess I should always append that.
[45:04.140 --> 45:08.680]  And I must say it must take a lot of courage to perform that task.
[45:09.200 --> 45:12.840]  Well, I don't think it takes a tremendous amount of courage.
[45:12.940 --> 45:14.460]  I think it takes some principle.
[45:14.720 --> 45:25.220]  I think that you have to be committed to free speech radio, to community-based radio, and to radio that is not dominated by the corporate conglomerates that dominate so much of the mass media.
[45:25.480 --> 45:30.760]  And if you have those principles, then you can stand up and say the right thing and do the right thing.
[45:30.760 --> 45:42.040]  It's interesting, too, because that's a topic that we've talked about many, many times on this radio show, especially during the fundraisers, the corporatization of radio, not just commercial radio, but non-commercial radio as well.
[45:42.420 --> 45:50.920]  We always knew there was a threat in the distance of something like that happening to us, but it seems a lot closer now and a lot more imminent and something that we really...
[45:50.920 --> 45:52.080]  Okay, now push has come to shove.
[45:52.200 --> 45:52.900]  What do we do about it?
[45:52.940 --> 45:54.100]  How do we deal with the situation?
[45:54.460 --> 45:56.180]  What's the best constructive way to move forward?
[45:56.340 --> 45:58.640]  Push has come to shove, and Bush is now in Washington.
[45:59.320 --> 46:15.540]  Now that we need not only WBAI here in New York, but the network nationally, now that we need it so much as we're entering the Bush years, again, the Bush years, you know, now is when we see this tremendous pressure on stations to really change how they operate.
[46:15.840 --> 46:16.080]  Okay.
[46:16.220 --> 46:17.460]  We're going to take some phone calls.
[46:17.720 --> 46:19.320]  We'll try to take as many as we can.
[46:19.320 --> 46:28.180]  I ask people that we keep it short, no lengthy speeches, and just to ask questions of Leslie or of the situation here at the radio station.
[46:28.180 --> 46:28.640]  Thanks.
[46:29.240 --> 46:29.640]  Good evening.
[46:29.800 --> 46:30.200]  You're on the air.
[46:31.260 --> 46:31.900]  Yeah, thank you.
[46:32.380 --> 46:33.960]  This is Shabazz in the Bronx.
[46:34.080 --> 46:37.160]  I wanted to say I appreciate Leslie Kagan.
[46:37.940 --> 46:38.460]  Hello?
[46:38.620 --> 46:38.820]  Yes.
[46:38.960 --> 46:39.100]  Yes.
[46:39.200 --> 46:46.160]  Yeah, I appreciate her being there, and it's enjoyable to be able to hear her definitions on certain points.
[46:48.040 --> 46:57.060]  Personally, it's not an easy thing to see that people are so for real about what they're doing.
[46:57.060 --> 47:14.420]  Like, you know, you had the people who were demonstrating and concerned about the Rockefeller program, the great big incarcerated business ventures that were being taken on with the prisons and stuff, and then, you know, the Amadou Diallo murder and all of this,
[47:14.460 --> 47:16.580]  and then some of the other doorsmen and this and that.
[47:16.760 --> 47:23.300]  And these seem like the people, the exact people that are being targeted for dismissal under those circumstances.
[47:23.300 --> 47:31.860]  I just wanted to say that I appreciate you being there, and it's a pleasure hearing you and knowing that there's someone like yourself there.
[47:32.080 --> 47:32.540]  Thank you.
[47:32.720 --> 47:33.180]  Thanks for calling.
[47:34.720 --> 47:36.140]  212-209-2900.
[47:36.240 --> 47:36.560]  Good evening.
[47:36.700 --> 47:37.120]  You're on the air.
[47:37.560 --> 47:38.000]  Oh, hi.
[47:38.080 --> 47:38.500]  Good evening.
[47:38.940 --> 47:40.660]  I have a question.
[47:40.660 --> 48:02.020]  I wanted to know, how can you all say or accuse the people that were dismissed as playing a race card, when clearly it's very obvious that the people that have been dismissed was dismissed because of their race?
[48:02.020 --> 48:07.960]  Wait, you got it kind of backwards here, because it's not the people who are dismissed that are making these accusations.
[48:08.000 --> 48:16.080]  It's the people that are still in charge here that are saying that the people that are opposed to the dismissals are racist.
[48:16.900 --> 48:18.660]  Oh, the people that are opposed are racist.
[48:18.840 --> 48:19.140]  Yes.
[48:19.280 --> 48:26.220]  But I'm trying to understand, what was the basis for the dismissal, and why was only black people dismissed?
[48:26.220 --> 48:27.500]  Well, welcome to the club.
[48:27.720 --> 48:29.040]  We're trying to figure that out ourselves.
[48:29.300 --> 48:36.300]  It wasn't just black people who were dismissed, but I don't think it's a race issue either way, and I don't want it to be a race issue either way.
[48:36.440 --> 48:49.020]  What I was responding to before was simply comments that were said on the air this morning that pretty much blatantly said that the people that are opposed to what's going on at the radio station are racist, that it's a white agenda, and all kinds of nonsense like that,
[48:49.060 --> 48:50.840]  and I consider that to be racist talk.
[48:50.840 --> 48:57.940]  I understand that, but what is happening at this radio station is the exact same thing that happened in the election.
[48:58.220 --> 49:04.840]  It's the black voices that are being silenced, just like the black voters were the ones that were targeted.
[49:05.580 --> 49:06.700]  Okay, thanks for calling.
[49:07.520 --> 49:09.340]  Let's move on to another phone call.
[49:10.000 --> 49:11.220]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[49:11.420 --> 49:11.860]  Good evening.
[49:12.480 --> 49:13.800]  Very, very good radio.
[49:14.520 --> 49:26.460]  I woke up this morning to hear the voice of the morning show host calling for Pacifica to sell the station, which he said about three times, based on the fact that there was dysfunctional, there was no staff to speak of.
[49:26.980 --> 49:30.560]  I was shocked to hear that, and I was very frightened.
[49:30.880 --> 49:36.980]  It occurred to me that he was giving the conservative elements of the Pacifica board an extremely potent weapon.
[49:36.980 --> 49:42.360]  I could almost see their official statement in my mind's eye if they tried to close the station.
[49:42.640 --> 49:51.060]  They would say, even long-time staff members have called for the station to be sold and have admitted there is no functional staff at WBAI.
[49:51.220 --> 50:02.400]  I couldn't believe that Eutrice Leed, who had come in to stop Amy Goodman from doing something or other that was supposed to be damaging the station at one point, would not in some way try to put a lid on this.
[50:02.400 --> 50:05.740]  As a matter of fact, I called her twice to urge her to do this.
[50:06.240 --> 50:14.180]  To her credit, she took the call two times, but then was called away because there were obviously emergency meetings going on at the station.
[50:15.820 --> 50:18.900]  I think that this has got to be reacted to.
[50:19.700 --> 50:21.700]  Nobody on the station should be saying this.
[50:21.840 --> 50:23.440]  I am really, really shocked.
[50:23.440 --> 50:34.840]  In fact, I also want to say very quickly that WBAI is an open situation insofar as there are hundreds of thousands of people in the tri-state area listening.
[50:35.080 --> 50:40.420]  And any one of them can call up or write to the station and say anything they want to.
[50:40.580 --> 50:42.600]  They don't even have to face any consequences.
[50:43.720 --> 50:47.160]  And the reason I'm bringing this up is, yes, there have been a lot of...
[50:47.160 --> 50:49.120]  There have been racist statements made.
[50:49.120 --> 50:52.100]  I'm sure Clayton Riley was very upset about one this morning.
[50:52.100 --> 50:54.600]  There are people calling up saying all kinds of things.
[50:54.660 --> 51:04.860]  But it is totally unfair to characterize the, let's say, concerned friends position as somehow representing or be, you know, those people representing that position.
[51:04.860 --> 51:06.380]  We don't know who those people are.
[51:06.980 --> 51:07.940]  That's outrageous.
[51:07.940 --> 51:13.380]  People have to understand what the actual situation is in that regard.
[51:13.860 --> 51:15.320]  One other very quick point.
[51:15.320 --> 51:22.680]  As a community activist, I usually can come into WBAI and make a cart about events that I'm working on.
[51:22.780 --> 51:25.220]  I am absolutely unable to access this.
[51:25.320 --> 51:26.640]  I think people should know this also.
[51:26.900 --> 51:29.880]  The public affairs director is not returning calls.
[51:29.880 --> 51:37.560]  I tried for seven days, and I was told by one staffer that I needed a 501c3, a not-for-profit status, which is outrageous.
[51:38.540 --> 51:49.340]  That would mean that groups like Direct Action Network or ACT UP or activist groups, which usually did not have not-for-profit papers, would no longer have access to making taped announcements.
[51:49.340 --> 51:55.640]  So since I've attempted to tell the staff about this, and they won't hear I'm now saying this on the air, I think that should be dealt with also.
[51:56.240 --> 51:56.460]  Okay.
[51:56.560 --> 51:57.960]  Thank you very much for the program.
[51:58.160 --> 51:58.340]  Thanks.
[51:58.420 --> 51:58.840]  Thanks for calling.
[51:58.840 --> 52:07.840]  Actually, before you take the next call, let me just say that people who want to find out more about the concerned friends at WBAI, there is another public meeting.
[52:08.020 --> 52:16.220]  There are periodic public community-wide meetings this Thursday evening at 6, and the address of that is 235 West 23rd Street.
[52:16.580 --> 52:25.320]  That's in Manhattan, 235 West 23rd Street, the next open meeting of Concerned Friends of WBAI, and everybody is invited to come.
[52:25.600 --> 52:26.960]  And that's this Thursday at 6.
[52:27.440 --> 52:28.200]  Emanuel, are you there?
[52:28.300 --> 52:28.920]  Yes, go ahead, Alex.
[52:29.180 --> 52:32.500]  Maybe this is the time where I should make the announcement for the meeting on Long Island.
[52:32.700 --> 52:33.180]  Yes, go ahead.
[52:33.320 --> 52:39.380]  January 29th at 7.30 p.m., there's going to be a meeting of the Long Island Friends of WBAI.
[52:39.380 --> 52:42.040]  That's January 29th, 7.30 p.m.
[52:42.080 --> 52:47.280]  at the Ethical Humanist Society at 38 Old Country Road in Garden City.
[52:47.800 --> 52:49.300]  A couple speakers are going to be there.
[52:49.400 --> 52:50.600]  Bernard White is going to be there.
[52:50.940 --> 52:57.080]  Michael DiNicenzo, who is a history professor at Hofstra, he's going to be talking about constitutional issues in this crisis.
[52:57.760 --> 53:03.380]  Robert Goldberg of the Democracy Project of the LI Progressive Coalition, and a bunch of other speakers as well.
[53:03.380 --> 53:07.680]  So that's 38 Old Country Road, Garden City, January 29th at 7.30 p.m.
[53:08.080 --> 53:26.920]  Okay, and some websites for people to get updates on the situation, www.savepacifica.net, www.wbai.net, and, of course, www.radioforall.org and .net with all kinds of archives of various programs that go on over the airwaves here.
[53:27.040 --> 53:31.020]  I'm sure this morning's radio show will be on there, too, so you can judge for yourself.
[53:32.160 --> 53:34.500]  Again, there's a listing of all the links.
[53:34.520 --> 53:40.720]  In case you don't want to write down all the links, just go to savewbai.com or .org or .net.
[53:40.720 --> 53:42.500]  I think we've got all three of those going.
[53:42.760 --> 53:49.400]  And that has a list of all the different links to different sites of the various people in the Save Pacific, Save WBAI movement.
[53:49.500 --> 53:55.840]  Okay, Emanuel, there's about five other cops coming into the hall right now from the elevator.
[53:56.020 --> 53:58.860]  A lot of them have ties to tie people up.
[53:59.600 --> 54:02.360]  Those plastic ties that go around your hands.
[54:03.000 --> 54:05.340]  One cop is unraveling them right now.
[54:05.620 --> 54:06.660]  That doesn't look good to me.
[54:06.920 --> 54:08.420]  It doesn't look good, not at all.
[54:10.400 --> 54:10.920]  Okay.
[54:12.020 --> 54:13.000]  Again, you know, again...
[54:13.000 --> 54:14.500]  It looks like two people are standing up now.
[54:14.640 --> 54:15.860]  They're starting to mill around.
[54:16.380 --> 54:26.340]  Let me just also, again, if Utrese is listening, to urge you to please resolve this matter by letting folks into the conference room to have the meeting.
[54:26.560 --> 54:27.140]  That's it.
[54:27.180 --> 54:28.200]  They let in and have their meeting.
[54:28.360 --> 54:30.180]  And it's peaceful otherwise now.
[54:30.320 --> 54:31.500]  Two other police just came in.
[54:32.180 --> 54:34.860]  There's probably about ten of them in the hall right now.
[54:36.000 --> 54:39.000]  And about four of them have these hand ties.
[54:40.100 --> 54:40.980]  People are...
[54:40.980 --> 54:43.400]  It looks like, you know, getting a little nervous now.
[54:43.620 --> 54:43.900]  Mm-hmm.
[54:45.280 --> 54:47.900]  But they're still pretty strong.
[54:47.900 --> 54:50.040]  We still have people sitting down in front of the door.
[54:51.580 --> 54:55.940]  Let's hope that some kind of resolution can be reached before it results in people being taken away.
[54:56.100 --> 54:57.000]  I certainly hope so.
[54:58.280 --> 54:59.060]  I'm going to...
[54:59.740 --> 55:01.360]  Just come in if something should happen.
[55:01.420 --> 55:02.520]  I'm going to take a couple more phone calls.
[55:02.660 --> 55:04.880]  Yeah, I'll long this day out here until it hits the fan.
[55:05.800 --> 55:07.240]  And then I'll just slip in the door.
[55:07.620 --> 55:07.980]  Hopefully.
[55:08.680 --> 55:09.040]  Hopefully.
[55:09.040 --> 55:09.700]  We'll see if they...
[55:09.700 --> 55:10.200]  That's the plan.
[55:10.420 --> 55:10.540]  Yeah.
[55:10.640 --> 55:10.960]  Good evening.
[55:11.040 --> 55:11.440]  You're on the air.
[55:11.680 --> 55:12.500]  Yes, good evening.
[55:13.580 --> 55:14.260]  Speak up, please.
[55:14.520 --> 55:15.040]  Yes, good evening.
[55:15.240 --> 55:18.660]  I am a supporter and a lover of WPAI.
[55:18.840 --> 55:20.180]  I could tell you this much, though.
[55:20.400 --> 55:25.720]  I have been pretty concerned about the way a lot of this stuff has been going on over the air for a long time.
[55:26.020 --> 55:28.060]  I could never understand, you know.
[55:28.200 --> 55:29.340]  I understand the inner workings.
[55:29.380 --> 55:30.620]  I understand that there are things happening.
[55:31.720 --> 55:33.540]  But there seems to be so much chaos.
[55:33.540 --> 55:35.380]  And a lot of us are really tired of it.
[55:35.420 --> 55:36.520]  We support the station, too.
[55:36.860 --> 55:37.880]  Now, I am not saying that...
[55:37.880 --> 55:38.560]  You're leaving, Nelson?
[55:39.080 --> 55:39.380]  Hello?
[55:39.620 --> 55:40.020]  Yes, go ahead.
[55:40.040 --> 55:42.020]  I hope you're not going to disconnect me, whatever.
[55:42.500 --> 55:45.360]  No, there are things going on here, so you might hear some noise.
[55:45.480 --> 55:46.000]  Let's keep talking.
[55:46.260 --> 55:46.480]  Okay.
[55:46.920 --> 55:48.880]  I just wanted to say one quick thing.
[55:48.980 --> 55:49.160]  Sure.
[55:49.360 --> 55:51.980]  Some more people that weren't cops just came up here.
[55:52.120 --> 55:54.920]  I think it might be the legal counsel for the police.
[55:55.140 --> 55:55.480]  Okay.
[55:55.640 --> 56:00.820]  And along with two other police and somebody else who's just in plain clothes.
[56:00.820 --> 56:01.300]  All right.
[56:01.360 --> 56:03.500]  Let's let this caller talk and say his point.
[56:03.580 --> 56:03.800]  Go ahead.
[56:03.940 --> 56:04.120]  Yes.
[56:05.120 --> 56:08.360]  My concern is that everybody's saying that they own the station.
[56:08.520 --> 56:09.840]  We all own the station.
[56:10.000 --> 56:11.360]  And a lot of us just want...
[56:11.360 --> 56:13.480]  We love Bernard.
[56:13.620 --> 56:14.440]  We love all those guys.
[56:14.600 --> 56:17.180]  But a lot of us understand that there's a mission involved.
[56:17.340 --> 56:22.800]  And I am saying simply this, that many of the stuff that was taking place and have been taking place could have been resolved.
[56:22.800 --> 56:27.220]  I don't see the need to put this on us all the time.
[56:27.420 --> 56:28.520]  And I have seen this.
[56:28.740 --> 56:33.740]  And I know some of my friends who I talk to who are also lovers of the BBI have been expressing the same concern.
[56:33.880 --> 56:35.320]  I mean, what's this all about?
[56:35.500 --> 56:36.820]  There seems to be...
[56:36.820 --> 56:39.460]  Like, I mean, it doesn't make any sense.
[56:39.620 --> 56:41.660]  Well, are you saying we shouldn't be covering this?
[56:41.740 --> 56:42.200]  Is that what you're saying?
[56:42.260 --> 56:43.940]  No, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be covering this.
[56:44.000 --> 56:49.820]  Because I understand what went on in KPFK in Los Angeles and all that.
[56:49.880 --> 56:51.480]  I am not saying that it should not be covered.
[56:51.480 --> 56:54.080]  I am simply saying that before you...
[56:54.080 --> 56:55.600]  I mean, you have to make some...
[56:55.600 --> 56:58.220]  You have to approach it in a very professional way.
[56:59.160 --> 57:04.520]  But to constantly be emotional and all that stuff just didn't make sense.
[57:04.620 --> 57:06.300]  And I didn't think it was serving our best interest.
[57:06.420 --> 57:07.840]  I still don't think it is.
[57:07.960 --> 57:09.160]  I have to agree with you there.
[57:09.280 --> 57:12.720]  I don't think people should be overly emotional or irrational.
[57:13.200 --> 57:16.880]  I think for the most part, people have been pretty much professional.
[57:17.260 --> 57:18.340]  I disagree.
[57:24.500 --> 57:27.460]  Try to speak up, sir, so we can hear you, because there's commotion going on.
[57:27.580 --> 57:30.380]  As it relates to this morning, that was said this morning.
[57:31.120 --> 57:33.700]  You're irresponsible, but I've heard a lot of irresponsibility.
[57:34.400 --> 57:36.620]  Okay, you've heard irresponsibility from different sides.
[57:36.700 --> 57:40.900]  Well, hopefully this isn't one of the examples of that.
[57:41.060 --> 57:44.420]  I hope that we're able to present things in a somewhat professional way.
[57:45.280 --> 57:47.240]  Okay, we're having a lot of trouble hearing you.
[57:47.340 --> 57:49.080]  So, Alex, what's going on over there now?
[57:49.320 --> 57:50.880]  Okay, the chanting is continued again.
[57:51.000 --> 57:53.520]  There's probably about 10 cops on the far side of the hall.
[57:53.700 --> 57:55.520]  All the listeners are in front of the door.
[57:55.860 --> 57:57.220]  The chanting is continued.
[57:57.600 --> 57:59.280]  So if you can put your light to it.
[57:59.280 --> 57:59.980]  Who's station?
[58:00.160 --> 58:00.920]  Our station!
[58:07.280 --> 58:09.580]  This is Ursula again.
[58:09.900 --> 58:13.940]  And there's two things I want to make really clear about what's happening here.
[58:14.240 --> 58:17.080]  First of all, there's no acts of violence happening.
[58:17.340 --> 58:19.920]  There's no acts of aggression against the station.
[58:20.200 --> 58:23.020]  We're sitting peacefully outside in the hallway.
[58:23.400 --> 58:27.260]  And the second thing I want to make clear is that nobody put us up to this.
[58:27.260 --> 58:29.140]  Nobody told us to do this.
[58:29.280 --> 58:31.780]  We're all doing this because of our own convictions.
[58:31.780 --> 58:34.840]  And we have not been organized by one or more people.
[58:35.340 --> 58:38.280]  We're all doing this because we believe in it as individuals.
[58:39.840 --> 58:40.200]  Alright.
[58:41.500 --> 58:45.700]  I should also point out at this point that I had no knowledge of this going on until I got here.
[58:48.320 --> 58:49.960]  Alright, what's the overall mood?
[58:50.100 --> 58:51.620]  It sounds somewhat upbeat.
[58:55.800 --> 58:56.900]  I'm sorry, I missed that.
[58:57.600 --> 58:59.160]  What's the overall mood of the people there?
[58:59.440 --> 59:00.860]  The overall mood is pretty happy.
[59:00.980 --> 59:02.860]  Nobody seems like they're really afraid right now.
[59:03.160 --> 59:04.220]  Especially right in the front.
[59:04.400 --> 59:06.520]  We have a lot of people that are really rallying.
[59:07.060 --> 59:12.280]  My only concern is whether or not the police are going to give people a chance to leave before they arrest them.
[59:13.700 --> 59:14.900]  They seem pretty eager.
[59:15.540 --> 59:17.960]  They seem eager to arrest people, is that what you're saying?
[59:18.000 --> 59:19.100]  Yeah, well they're walking around.
[59:19.280 --> 59:22.080]  They've got their plastic ties out.
[59:22.280 --> 59:25.100]  Some of them are untying them from their belts.
[59:25.800 --> 59:30.680]  I can't tell you how bad it makes me feel.
[59:30.920 --> 59:37.400]  Not that I dislike police, but seeing police in the radio station like this is just something that really makes me very queasy.
[59:37.400 --> 59:40.280]  Well, some of the listeners have left now.
[59:40.740 --> 59:43.160]  Now the chat is getting a little bit more quick.
[59:44.040 --> 59:46.640]  There's probably about just as many police right now.
[59:46.740 --> 59:48.800]  Or maybe just a little bit less police than there are listeners.
[59:50.260 --> 59:55.920]  The elevators keep going up and down and, you know, a listener will leave and more police will come.
[59:57.040 --> 59:59.200]  It's getting to be about equal right now.
[01:00:00.060 --> 01:00:01.860]  They could probably just use the handcuffs.
[01:00:02.700 --> 01:00:03.180]  Okay.
[01:00:03.180 --> 01:00:13.120]  Let me, if I could also just, before we wrap up here, make sure that people know the phone number for Concerned Friends of WBAI to follow this story and get more information.
[01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:18.060]  It's 1-800-825-0055.
[01:00:19.120 --> 01:00:21.240]  800-825-0055.
[01:00:21.240 --> 01:00:33.580]  And again, encourage people to come to a meeting on Thursday night to talk about these issues and see what the community of Concerned Friends of WBAI can do to get things settled and back on track.
[01:00:33.900 --> 01:00:37.800]  Thursday, 6 o'clock at 235 West 23rd Street.
[01:00:38.620 --> 01:00:39.180]  All right.
[01:00:39.220 --> 01:00:42.620]  We've been told that the 9 o'clock program will go on as scheduled.
[01:00:44.220 --> 01:00:47.060]  We'll go on as long as we possibly can before we have to hit the button.
[01:00:47.240 --> 01:00:50.380]  And hopefully there'll be more coverage of this in later programs tonight as well.
[01:00:50.380 --> 01:00:51.420]  I just want to say something quick.
[01:00:51.600 --> 01:00:51.760]  Yes.
[01:00:52.040 --> 01:00:55.640]  Police are pointing at some of the people that are sitting in front of the door now.
[01:00:55.880 --> 01:01:01.040]  I think they might be just sort of seeing who's the loudest.
[01:01:01.420 --> 01:01:04.820]  They've backed away right now though, but they were... it looked like they were about to do something.
[01:01:04.940 --> 01:01:06.260]  They're pointing out the loudest people?
[01:01:06.740 --> 01:01:07.700]  That's what it seemed like.
[01:01:07.700 --> 01:01:09.980]  They're pointing out the people that were chanting the loudest.
[01:01:10.900 --> 01:01:11.300]  Okay.
[01:01:11.640 --> 01:01:13.220]  But they've backed off now.
[01:01:13.640 --> 01:01:13.900]  All right.
[01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:16.300]  Well, we have less than a minute left of this radio program.
[01:01:16.300 --> 01:01:21.100]  I can't really say when you'll hear what's going on.
[01:01:21.220 --> 01:01:24.160]  Again, maybe an hour from now, maybe two hours from now.
[01:01:24.820 --> 01:01:28.320]  I'm sure the more orthodox radio could say we'll have something at midnight.
[01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:35.780]  Oh, and also I should point out there's rather well-timed a report to the listener tomorrow morning at 7 a.m.
[01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:36.860]  here on the radio station.
[01:01:36.860 --> 01:01:41.640]  That's where you can speak to management and hear the story directly.
[01:01:42.340 --> 01:01:43.720]  It's interesting here.
[01:01:44.600 --> 01:01:46.000]  I don't know what to say at this point.
[01:01:46.020 --> 01:01:50.780]  I assume we'll be back next week, but the way things are going right now, anything is possible.
[01:01:52.060 --> 01:01:53.320]  We have the 9 o'clock show ready?
[01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:53.600]  Yeah.
[01:01:53.860 --> 01:01:54.180]  All right.
[01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:54.640]  Okay.
[01:01:55.120 --> 01:01:56.540]  Barbara Nimi Aziz is up next.
[01:01:56.820 --> 01:01:59.480]  We'll be back next week, one form or another.
[01:01:59.980 --> 01:02:01.960]  There's a lot more police coming in right now.
[01:02:02.020 --> 01:02:02.300]  All right.
[01:02:02.420 --> 01:02:04.520]  Well, just in time for me to come out and look.
[01:02:05.120 --> 01:02:05.540]  That's it.
[01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:08.080]  Well, stay tuned to the radio station.
[01:02:08.180 --> 01:02:08.880]  I'm sure there'll be updates.
[01:02:08.980 --> 01:02:09.220]  Good night.
[01:02:09.860 --> 01:02:11.100]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein for everybody.
[01:02:11.240 --> 01:02:11.720]  Thanks so much.
[01:02:11.720 --> 01:02:14.960]  Thanks, Lindsay Kagan from the Pacifica National Board for participating.
[01:02:15.120 --> 01:02:15.240]  Good night.
[01:02:15.460 --> 01:02:16.000]  Yes, thank you.
[01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:17.440]  It is!
[01:02:17.580 --> 01:02:17.920]  It is!
[01:02:18.100 --> 01:02:18.100]  It is!
[01:02:18.300 --> 01:02:18.960]  It is!
[01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:18.960]  It is!
[01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:19.480]  It is!
[01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:19.560]  It is!
[01:02:19.860 --> 01:02:19.860]  It is!
[01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:19.880]  It is!
[01:02:51.010 --> 01:02:51.730]  It is!
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[01:03:10.290 --> 01:03:16.250]  Every Sunday, 4 o'clock p.m., with award-winning host Chico Alvarez.
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