[00:01.450 --> 00:08.010]  P.M., put it in your calendar here on WBAI 99.5 FM on your dial.
[00:19.100 --> 00:24.260]  This is Phil Lesch of the Grateful Dead, and you're listening to WBAI FM New York City 99.5.
[00:38.730 --> 00:41.110]  And yes, it is WBAI New York.
[00:41.270 --> 00:45.270]  The time is 7 o'clock, one hour before Off the Hook usually comes on the air.
[00:45.270 --> 00:47.770]  This week, Expert Witness will not be on.
[00:47.870 --> 00:50.850]  However, Expert Witness will be on for five hours next week.
[00:51.330 --> 00:55.930]  So you'll have all the expert witnesses you can possibly imagine next week at the same time.
[00:56.030 --> 00:57.270]  Now, stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[01:20.590 --> 01:22.230]  The best, expect the worst.
[01:22.810 --> 01:24.730]  I hope that's understood.
[01:25.050 --> 01:25.730]  But didn't it go?
[02:52.990 --> 02:54.410]  And very good evening to everybody.
[02:54.410 --> 02:55.470]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:55.470 --> 03:07.290]  Look, Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for an extra hour this week as we're doing fundraising for this great place known as WBAI, the radio station that brings you programs like Off the Hook and so much more.
[03:07.730 --> 03:20.150]  We'll be going into great detail as to why you should be supporting this radio station, if you don't already know it, and giving out the phone number, 212-209-2950 is the number to call.
[03:21.010 --> 03:23.450]  Did we really get that amount of money in the first minute of the show?
[03:23.530 --> 03:24.070]  I don't think so.
[03:24.210 --> 03:26.290]  I think that's probably left over from the last show.
[03:27.550 --> 03:31.030]  So that's the number to call to pledge, but stay tuned for the next two hours.
[03:31.410 --> 03:38.990]  We're going to have all kinds of interesting announcements and facts, and we'll even have some listener phone calls and all kinds of things like that.
[03:39.050 --> 03:39.570]  Isaac, how are you?
[03:39.770 --> 03:40.190]  I'm fine.
[03:40.270 --> 03:40.650]  So are you yourself?
[03:40.850 --> 03:41.430]  I'm pretty good.
[03:41.510 --> 03:41.750]  Pretty good.
[03:41.790 --> 03:42.490]  It's been a hectic week.
[03:42.730 --> 03:43.370]  It has indeed.
[03:43.370 --> 03:43.870]  It really has.
[03:44.270 --> 03:47.770]  This CD that I'm playing, in fact...
[03:47.770 --> 03:49.690]  You always have the most interesting music.
[03:49.830 --> 03:50.290]  I do, don't I?
[03:50.310 --> 03:54.250]  This is how I happen to educate myself in modern music.
[03:54.550 --> 03:56.250]  People send music to us.
[03:57.130 --> 04:00.690]  And this is to be encouraged, because when people send music to us, we play it.
[04:00.730 --> 04:01.290]  We listen to it.
[04:01.350 --> 04:03.550]  Unlike those other radio stations that...
[04:03.550 --> 04:04.910]  They just kind of get shelved.
[04:05.170 --> 04:06.650]  Yeah, actually, they get thrown out.
[04:06.830 --> 04:07.450]  Not shelved.
[04:07.610 --> 04:08.090]  Thrown out?
[04:08.210 --> 04:10.030]  You're lucky if it gets shelved.
[04:33.960 --> 04:34.580]  Go ahead.
[04:34.740 --> 04:35.060]  Go ahead.
[04:35.180 --> 04:36.620]  Turn around on the FM dial.
[04:36.770 --> 04:37.680]  Wander around all over the place.
[04:37.700 --> 04:39.380]  You won't hear music like this anywhere.
[04:43.640 --> 04:46.900]  Of course, we're on the commercial part of the dial, which is the incredible part.
[04:47.560 --> 04:48.440]  Smack dab in the middle.
[04:48.620 --> 04:57.220]  But like I was saying, this CD, which someone was nice enough to send us, this is Wall of Sound, may have cost me a great deal.
[04:59.020 --> 05:02.540]  Because I was previewing it in my new Macintosh Cube.
[05:03.020 --> 05:04.540]  You know, those are cute little computers.
[05:04.780 --> 05:06.740]  Oh, so you like slipped it down into the...
[05:06.740 --> 05:06.960]  Well, yeah.
[05:07.040 --> 05:11.660]  You put the disc in, it kind of sucks it in, and it starts playing it.
[05:11.760 --> 05:14.080]  And, you know, I thought that was really nifty, and it was playing...
[05:14.080 --> 05:15.180]  I mean, I've been doing this for a while.
[05:15.180 --> 05:17.740]  Well, I've been doing a lot of things with the Mac Cube.
[05:17.880 --> 05:21.960]  I've been archiving my entire CD collection into MP3s.
[05:21.960 --> 05:24.160]  We'll get into that later, when we get into the whole Napster discussion.
[05:26.260 --> 05:29.740]  And, unfortunately, when I was listening to this, I said, yeah, you know, this sounds good.
[05:29.760 --> 05:32.760]  I think maybe we'll play some of this tonight on the radio.
[05:33.440 --> 05:35.300]  And then I asked it to eject the CD.
[05:35.900 --> 05:36.140]  Uh-oh.
[05:36.880 --> 05:37.520]  It refused.
[05:38.540 --> 05:41.200]  Apparently, it liked this song so much, it just kept playing it.
[05:41.260 --> 05:42.300]  And I had to go, you know.
[05:46.880 --> 05:48.820]  And it wouldn't eject the disc.
[05:48.940 --> 05:53.780]  And I couldn't find any little hole to, like, you know, stick a pin in so that the thing would eject manually.
[05:54.340 --> 05:56.340]  You just tucked the whole machine under your arm, didn't you?
[05:56.520 --> 05:56.740]  No.
[05:56.900 --> 05:58.780]  Well, you know, in retrospect, I should have done that.
[05:58.940 --> 06:00.700]  No, what I did was I pushed the button.
[06:00.840 --> 06:06.160]  There's a little white flashing light that the little cube has.
[06:06.300 --> 06:08.400]  When it goes to sleep, you see this little light flashing.
[06:08.680 --> 06:08.900]  Right.
[06:09.060 --> 06:13.360]  For those people who don't know it, this Macintosh Cube, it's a, you know, you can literally carry it under your arm.
[06:13.440 --> 06:14.000]  It's a little tiny.
[06:14.000 --> 06:15.320]  It's as big as a bread box.
[06:15.520 --> 06:16.560]  It's an eight-inch cube.
[06:17.200 --> 06:18.400]  Yeah, that's really what it is.
[06:18.680 --> 06:22.560]  So I pushed the button, and the power went out to the screen and all that.
[06:22.640 --> 06:23.900]  Apparently, it was hung.
[06:24.140 --> 06:25.940]  It was hung on this song, but it was still playing.
[06:26.020 --> 06:27.700]  The music was still playing while this was going on.
[06:28.320 --> 06:31.280]  So the screen went off, and then I pushed the button again to reboot.
[06:31.600 --> 06:35.360]  And the screen came back on exactly where it left off.
[06:35.460 --> 06:37.340]  So I didn't do anything by turning it off.
[06:37.600 --> 06:38.820]  I tried this a couple of times.
[06:38.900 --> 06:40.000]  It just would not release.
[06:40.600 --> 06:42.120]  It would not release the screen.
[06:42.220 --> 06:43.120]  It would not release the CD.
[06:44.000 --> 06:44.780]  Was stuck.
[06:45.000 --> 06:45.880]  It was holding on to it.
[06:46.160 --> 06:47.320]  I couldn't get my CD out.
[06:47.440 --> 06:48.660]  I couldn't get my Mac to even reboot.
[06:52.640 --> 06:53.940]  So, I unplugged it.
[06:55.020 --> 06:56.360]  You deprived it of power.
[06:56.560 --> 06:57.040]  I had to.
[06:57.660 --> 06:58.440]  I had to.
[06:58.540 --> 07:00.560]  It was just... it was annoying me, so I unplugged it.
[07:00.660 --> 07:02.580]  And the little white light went out.
[07:02.920 --> 07:03.320]  No!
[07:03.600 --> 07:03.820]  Yeah.
[07:04.560 --> 07:10.660]  And when that happened, when the little white light went out, I kind of felt maybe that I shouldn't have done that.
[07:10.760 --> 07:11.520]  Maybe that was wrong.
[07:11.620 --> 07:12.420]  Yeah, that's not nice.
[07:14.000 --> 07:23.940]  So, anyway, I plugged it in, and the thing really did reboot this time, except it got to the point where, you know, you get to the finder, and I got this error that said something like...
[07:25.320 --> 07:25.860]  What was it?
[07:25.920 --> 07:26.700]  Q-Watcher.
[07:27.980 --> 07:29.800]  Yeah, Q-U-E-U-E.
[07:29.920 --> 07:32.520]  Q-Watcher, address, wrong address, or something like that.
[07:32.700 --> 07:36.400]  It gave me this little bomb on the screen, and I can't boot anymore.
[07:36.660 --> 07:42.120]  I was able to eject the thing because I pushed the eject button quickly before the error came up, but now it just won't boot anymore.
[07:42.120 --> 07:46.240]  So this CD, which somebody sent me, may have cost me my computer.
[07:48.340 --> 07:49.960]  Yeah, you think it's funny, huh?
[07:50.060 --> 07:51.180]  You think it's hilarious.
[07:51.400 --> 07:52.480]  I don't think it's that serious.
[07:52.600 --> 07:55.580]  My cube is dead because somebody sent me music.
[07:55.880 --> 07:56.920]  Well, no, it might...
[07:56.920 --> 07:58.520]  I don't think it's the person who sent you music.
[07:58.520 --> 08:00.520]  I think it's the fact that you deprived of power.
[08:00.620 --> 08:03.000]  It was a CD virus is what it was.
[08:03.060 --> 08:03.620]  Oh, come on.
[08:03.620 --> 08:04.220]  It was.
[08:04.460 --> 08:04.800]  No.
[08:04.960 --> 08:05.700]  Malicious code.
[08:05.860 --> 08:06.420]  I think it's just...
[08:06.420 --> 08:07.660]  Inject it into my Macintosh.
[08:07.780 --> 08:10.660]  I think it's just being unhappy because you pulled the plug.
[08:10.860 --> 08:11.420]  Well, you know what?
[08:11.440 --> 08:12.060]  It's not happy with you.
[08:12.140 --> 08:13.880]  I'm going to listen to the song again because...
[08:15.740 --> 08:18.520]  If it's going to cost me that much, I might as well listen to it a whole lot of times.
[08:19.100 --> 08:22.220]  Are you encouraging other people to send you CDs that will break your computers?
[08:22.220 --> 08:22.620]  Well, no.
[08:22.720 --> 08:24.700]  Send us CDs that don't do things like that.
[08:24.880 --> 08:28.300]  Send us CDs that aren't so good that the Macintosh won't release them.
[08:28.340 --> 08:28.360]  Refuse.
[08:28.940 --> 08:31.360]  And if anybody knows what a Q-Watcher error is, please let me know.
[08:31.480 --> 08:32.820]  I haven't booted with no extensions yet.
[08:32.840 --> 08:33.600]  I'm going to try that later.
[08:33.780 --> 08:34.780]  But I had to get...
[08:34.780 --> 08:39.180]  You know, this was with me being late for the show because I had to drive in an hour earlier this week.
[08:39.640 --> 08:41.960]  It was really, you know, horrible.
[08:43.160 --> 08:44.760]  So, anyway, we have an extended show tonight.
[08:45.480 --> 08:47.280]  Hopefully, there won't be any more glitches like that.
[08:47.360 --> 08:54.920]  We do have a great potential for a glitch because we have some excerpts from the H2K conference we're going to be playing tonight.
[08:55.600 --> 08:58.560]  We have a very special deal for people who are calling in and pledging.
[08:59.140 --> 09:00.540]  And you know, that number is still on the screen.
[09:00.720 --> 09:02.260]  We did not raise any money yet, so...
[09:02.260 --> 09:03.400]  Well, what number do they have to call?
[09:03.940 --> 09:05.240]  Well, I'm about to get to that.
[09:05.740 --> 09:08.660]  I'm saying to the Tally people, we need to start fresh.
[09:08.660 --> 09:12.220]  And the number to call is 212-209-2950.
[09:12.540 --> 09:20.720]  We have a whole lot of dedicated Tally people down there who are volunteering to come in, answer the phones, and take your pledge.
[09:20.720 --> 09:31.760]  And we have all kinds of interesting things to entice you, as well as just the general feeling that this is the right thing to do.
[09:32.360 --> 09:43.220]  And if you have doubts, and I understand people have doubts about that for all different reasons, we'll be very happy to explore that and to come to an answer together.
[09:44.500 --> 09:47.360]  All right, in a moment, we're going to play something from the H2K conference.
[09:47.920 --> 09:48.560]  Stay tuned.
[11:28.080 --> 11:29.000]  What are we going to do?
[11:29.040 --> 11:30.040]  We're going to take California.
[12:04.280 --> 12:07.380]  We're going to take California.
[12:38.400 --> 12:39.900]  What is it about?
[12:39.900 --> 12:42.220]  There's something evolving.
[12:45.740 --> 12:50.440]  Whatever may come, the world keeps revolving.
[12:51.720 --> 12:54.800]  They say the next big thing is evil.
[12:59.390 --> 13:02.450]  But to me it seems quite clear.
[13:02.910 --> 13:07.510]  That it's all just a little bit of history repeating.
[13:09.230 --> 13:12.030]  Okay, I think we've got our act together here.
[13:12.190 --> 13:14.990]  Isaac, we're going to panic at the last minute here?
[13:15.090 --> 13:16.370]  I'm just going to make sure...
[13:16.370 --> 13:19.790]  All right, what we're actually doing here is we're playing part of a mini-disc.
[13:20.790 --> 13:23.770]  And you know we're going to get this wrong somehow because we always do.
[13:24.150 --> 13:28.470]  But let me give some background while we attempt to plug things in and make sure they work properly.
[13:29.130 --> 13:32.570]  The H2K conference took place last summer here in New York City.
[13:32.570 --> 13:38.070]  It was a gathering, the third gathering of computer hackers from all over the world.
[13:38.530 --> 13:42.530]  And I think this one in particular had the most as far as content.
[13:42.530 --> 13:44.770]  We had diversity all over the place.
[13:45.510 --> 13:51.430]  And what we're going to hear first, we're going to hear two different pieces from that.
[13:52.150 --> 13:57.530]  The first thing we're going to listen to is something from someone I've known for quite some time.
[13:57.770 --> 14:04.450]  A private investigator who goes around investigating people, investigating all kinds of things.
[14:04.570 --> 14:09.770]  It's amazing what you can find out about people if you just know what you're doing.
[14:10.410 --> 14:11.790]  This guy's name is Steve Rambein.
[14:11.890 --> 14:12.770]  Yeah, I met him at Beyond Hope.
[14:13.050 --> 14:13.310]  Yeah.
[14:13.630 --> 14:17.070]  Well, you might have also met him at H2K because he was at Beyond Hope in 1997.
[14:17.310 --> 14:18.050]  Well, I met him once.
[14:18.490 --> 14:20.830]  I simply continued our relationship at that point.
[14:20.970 --> 14:23.750]  Well, you didn't continue it very fruitfully because you missed him at H2K.
[14:23.870 --> 14:24.190]  Yes, I did.
[14:24.190 --> 14:26.330]  Yeah, and he did a rousing talk there.
[14:26.530 --> 14:28.410]  He did a rousing talk at Beyond Hope.
[14:29.110 --> 14:33.990]  What we're going to try to do now is play you excerpts from the first...
[14:33.990 --> 14:36.050]  I see people looking worried and puzzled.
[14:36.250 --> 14:36.910]  Is this going to work?
[14:37.150 --> 14:37.910]  I'm pretty sure.
[14:37.910 --> 14:40.330]  If it doesn't, you flip that switch back.
[14:40.870 --> 14:49.130]  Well, that switch, if you recall, if I flip it like this, and then I bring this up, it doesn't make any noise at all.
[14:49.250 --> 14:49.450]  Okay.
[14:49.990 --> 14:50.910]  I guess it's all right.
[14:52.690 --> 14:53.050]  Hmm.
[14:53.690 --> 14:54.630]  It's cassette one, right?
[14:54.770 --> 14:55.310]  Yeah, cassette one.
[14:55.490 --> 14:55.650]  Okay.
[14:56.190 --> 14:58.190]  Let's give it a whirl, see if it works.
[14:58.510 --> 15:07.430]  Hopefully, the next thing you'll hear will be the sound from the H2K panel, and we're going to come on right afterwards and tell you how you can get this, plus every other videotape.
[15:07.790 --> 15:09.130]  It's actually videotape.
[15:09.270 --> 15:15.750]  You know, you can't see the video on the radio, but we're going to come back and tell you how you can obtain that and all the other videos at H2K.
[15:19.080 --> 15:19.540]  All right.
[15:19.600 --> 15:19.960]  You know what?
[15:20.440 --> 15:25.160]  Let's start and pray for a live connection in the next 10 minutes.
[15:26.400 --> 15:27.760]  My name is Steve Rombon.
[15:28.660 --> 15:29.720]  I'm an investigator.
[15:32.380 --> 15:34.240]  Many of the people in this room know me.
[15:34.400 --> 15:37.360]  They've worked with me for the past 15 or 20 years.
[15:39.380 --> 15:43.620]  For the one fellow who thought he won the Spot the Fed contest, where is he?
[15:45.460 --> 15:46.320]  Guess again.
[15:49.630 --> 15:53.050]  Hackers and private investigators have an enormous amount in common.
[15:54.170 --> 16:05.730]  The most important thing in common is that we all not just believe, but know how important open information is to create a level playing field.
[16:08.610 --> 16:17.550]  Today, the most important grantor and guarantor of power is information.
[16:17.990 --> 16:25.150]  If information is closed, the few people that have access to it will have nearly unlimited power from its use.
[16:26.010 --> 16:47.630]  If we get a live connection, I'm going to demonstrate to you some private databases out there that, frankly, allow everyone to work as their own private investigator, allow moms to collect from deadbeat dads, background investigations, what have you, without having to rely on law enforcement or,
[16:47.810 --> 16:49.250]  even worse, the government.
[16:51.610 --> 17:11.510]  There is now a movement by so-called privacy advocates to close all information in the U.S., everything from driving records, to vehicle records, to property records, to corporation ownership, to permissible portions of your credit report, typically called credit headers.
[17:11.510 --> 17:20.230]  And the privacy advocates, because their argument sounds great, have been almost universally successful.
[17:20.610 --> 17:28.030]  You cannot access driving records anymore unless you go through a private investigator or you have a subpoena.
[17:28.750 --> 17:31.970]  An act was passed called the Driver Privacy Protection Act.
[17:32.790 --> 17:38.170]  You cannot, in the state of California, for example, access voter registration records.
[17:39.850 --> 17:49.870]  Real property records are in the process of being closed in Washington, D.C., which I guess is at the behest of all of the elected individuals that own property.
[17:51.070 --> 17:56.650]  After November 12th, every portion of credit records will be closed.
[17:56.650 --> 18:09.770]  You will need the same justification, Fair Credit Act justification, to obtain even a Social Security number verification that you now need to obtain a full credit report.
[18:10.410 --> 18:24.390]  The end result of this is going to be that the average person, 99.9% of the people in this country, will have no legal access to fairly essential data sources and information.
[18:24.390 --> 18:35.750]  Information which allows them to check the background of a nanny, collect the debt, verify that the person driving their school bus doesn't have a DUI conviction.
[18:36.830 --> 18:41.030]  Let me give you an example of some people who slipped through the cracks.
[18:42.510 --> 19:01.550]  I just did a case in Washington where the administrative director of a law firm, when we redid his background investigation because he had just passed the bar and he wanted to become an attorney for the firm, we found out that the Bar Association had missed two prior convictions in Iowa,
[19:01.790 --> 19:03.430]  that he was a two-time loser.
[19:04.410 --> 19:08.990]  I'll give you the headlines from some newspaper articles.
[19:10.410 --> 19:16.330]  A former Orthodox priest was accused of stealing nearly $200,000 from his former employer.
[19:18.050 --> 19:23.130]  A former Green Run High School security officer was convicted of four misdemeanor charges.
[19:24.530 --> 19:27.750]  Teacher facing abuse charges can't tutor kids.
[19:30.790 --> 19:36.090]  A Monroe City nursing home administrator sentenced to life in prison without parole for a stabbing death.
[19:37.230 --> 19:51.470]  All of these people had prior arrests that would have shown up, had their employer or the people responsible for screening them prior to hiring them, had they been able to check background.
[19:55.930 --> 20:05.650]  While data is being closed, bizarrely, there is now more data available than ever, which ideally would be available to the masses.
[20:06.070 --> 20:30.350]  I know that DoubleClick and cookies and various other types of data-gathering methods have been in the press lately, but the fact is there are much better methods of gathering information that are being used today that provide a complete dossier on almost everyone in this room without their knowledge.
[20:31.050 --> 20:39.910]  Every computer today has a GUID, a universal identifier, which tracks that user's every step on the Internet.
[20:39.910 --> 20:45.710]  It doesn't matter if they delete cookies after every session, that GUID is still reachable.
[20:46.070 --> 20:56.250]  If you've bought a Pentium 3 and you haven't actually taken the steps to turn off the Pentium chip's serial number, that tracks you.
[20:56.650 --> 21:08.010]  If you have a high-speed connection, especially DSL, ISDN, in your home, everywhere you go, your unique IP address tracks everything you've done.
[21:08.010 --> 21:14.390]  You can delete cookies, you can avoid DoubleClick, you can turn banners off, it won't help.
[21:15.670 --> 21:26.310]  In addition to that, for the past 20 years, every major marketing company in America has been developing and perfecting something called psychographics.
[21:26.570 --> 21:28.250]  I'm sure you've all heard of demographics.
[21:29.310 --> 21:31.550]  Demographics is ancient history.
[21:32.190 --> 21:33.650]  Psychographics is the way to go.
[21:33.650 --> 21:43.610]  For example, a million-dollar study discovered that people who own cats and drive Volkswagens like Skippy Peanut Butter.
[21:44.630 --> 21:46.070]  It's an actual study.
[21:46.630 --> 21:53.670]  The vast majority of the people who own cats and drive Volkswagens, the Beetle, like Skippy Peanut Butter.
[21:53.990 --> 21:56.950]  Skippy Peanut Butter has marketed the hell out of those people.
[21:57.490 --> 22:03.450]  It is an innocent marketing study, but it's an example of what's possible.
[22:04.330 --> 22:05.270]  Mailing lists.
[22:06.230 --> 22:10.670]  If you are a member of the NRA, you probably own a gun.
[22:10.790 --> 22:12.930]  It's not guaranteed, but you probably own a gun.
[22:13.990 --> 22:18.130]  If you are a member of the AARP, you have certain characteristics.
[22:18.130 --> 22:22.730]  If you subscribe to cat fancier journals, you have certain characteristics.
[22:23.010 --> 22:24.710]  By the way, that's how the study was done.
[22:24.930 --> 22:26.130]  A company called R.L.
[22:26.230 --> 22:44.970]  Polk took all of the Volkswagen Beetle registrations from the country and cross-referenced it with people who either subscribe to various types of magazines and journals concerning cats or who have purchased medication for cats, that sort of thing.
[22:45.150 --> 22:48.210]  And they were able to identify these people and market for them.
[22:49.150 --> 22:55.230]  If you subscribe to Soldier of Fortune magazine, you have a certain profile.
[22:55.550 --> 23:01.630]  If you subscribe to a journal for gay people, you are almost certainly gay.
[23:03.330 --> 23:11.910]  Today, anyone doing the minimal amount of research and spending a minimal amount of money can find out your likes, your dislikes, your sexual orientation.
[23:12.690 --> 23:13.930]  Assure your religion.
[23:14.870 --> 23:19.790]  I'm Jewish and I have to tell you, every Jew in this country is on a mailing list.
[23:19.790 --> 23:34.590]  If you are Jewish, you get just a remarkable number of solicitations from everything from the UJA to the Jewish Defense League to what have you.
[23:35.530 --> 23:37.050]  I can't even log in.
[23:39.070 --> 23:46.790]  There's a guy, for those of you who can't see this, there's a guy holding together the phone jack with his thumb while I try to log on.
[23:46.790 --> 23:47.890]  I mean, this is pitiful.
[23:52.030 --> 24:06.430]  Well, if we get this working, let me tell you, today Diogenes has four point, which is what we named our database, Diogenes the Seeker After Truth, has 4.1 billion records.
[24:06.790 --> 24:10.670]  Every single person in this room is in this database.
[24:11.150 --> 24:13.710]  This database is linked to every credit bureau.
[24:13.710 --> 24:23.950]  This database is linked to every corporate record, every property record, every voter registration record, which, if someone can please help me log on, I will demonstrate.
[24:25.850 --> 24:27.350]  Maybe I don't think about computers.
[24:30.490 --> 24:32.450]  It's my straight man over there.
[24:33.830 --> 24:36.670]  I see all sorts of tools coming over here.
[24:36.670 --> 24:37.030]  Okay.
[24:39.630 --> 24:42.270]  Hopefully in about one second I'm going to demonstrate this.
[24:43.450 --> 25:01.210]  Today, without leaving my office, I can find out where you live, where you work, who you live with, who you work with, more likely than not your level of education, if not the school you attended, what you majored in.
[25:01.210 --> 25:04.050]  There are massive mailing lists for that sort of thing.
[25:04.810 --> 25:11.330]  And by the way, those of you that are starting college or in college now, do not reply to those credit card solicitations.
[25:12.270 --> 25:17.950]  Do not reply to those free student rate subscriptions, because we'll own you once you do.
[25:18.170 --> 25:19.930]  We will have everything on you.
[25:20.030 --> 25:21.470]  And we will track you forever.
[25:24.570 --> 25:41.370]  Today, sadly, something even I don't agree with, and I think all information should be gathered and be available, thanks to the net and kid websites and that sort of thing, people are now being tracked from the age of as young as they can type, 7 or 8 or 9 or 10.
[25:42.490 --> 25:53.870]  By the time they actually turn 18 and start using their social security number, which they now have to apply for at birth, instead of when they applied for a job.
[25:55.330 --> 25:58.350]  By the time they turn 18, we will know everything about them.
[26:00.090 --> 26:16.130]  For those of you that have logged on to Amazon after you've deleted your cookies and they still tell you, well, based on your last logins, we know that you're interested in Chinese cooking and murder mysteries, it's because they keep massive data files of you.
[26:16.290 --> 26:17.830]  They don't need to check a cookie.
[26:18.430 --> 26:29.590]  For those of you that log on to eBay and you're directed to an auction on Japanese flatware, it's because they've kept track of who you are based on your login.
[26:30.090 --> 26:41.570]  And if you've in any way, shape or form connected your name to your login email address and password, it's there in the database by your name.
[26:44.130 --> 26:59.810]  It is child's play, as I'm sure everyone in this room knows better than me, to determine just from a name where you're living, what nodes you're logging on from, and very, very easily correlating that to the most likely address.
[27:00.090 --> 27:07.610]  If your name is Bob Jones and you're logging in from Ottumwa, Iowa, there's a limited number of possibilities who you are.
[27:09.910 --> 27:24.670]  I can find out if you are gay or straight, if you're Jewish, Muslim or Catholic, if you are a deadbeat, or if you pay your debts, what your profession is, who you contribute to.
[27:25.390 --> 27:38.670]  And by the way, everyone who contributes to a political party and pays more than a fairly minuscule amount of money, your name, your address, your employer, and your position at that employer is now public record.
[27:39.150 --> 27:45.010]  I can go to FEC.gov, download the file from your state, do a text search, and I got you.
[27:48.190 --> 27:57.530]  I just did a project with a, let's say an anti-fascist group, where I provided them with the name and address of everyone contributing to Lyndon LaRouche.
[27:57.910 --> 28:06.670]  For those of you who don't know who Lyndon LaRouche is, he sued the B'nai B'rith for calling him a small-time Hitler.
[28:06.950 --> 28:07.610]  He lost.
[28:08.310 --> 28:10.990]  He is, in fact, a small-time Hitler.
[28:13.410 --> 28:19.770]  Now everyone who's contributed to his campaign will be receiving a letter asking why.
[28:20.290 --> 28:22.230]  And hopefully they won't contribute again.
[28:22.690 --> 28:29.310]  I know it's not exactly supportive of the general political process, but what can I tell you?
[28:30.390 --> 28:31.130]  Are we connected?
[28:31.450 --> 28:31.870]  We are.
[28:32.470 --> 28:32.870]  Okay.
[28:34.530 --> 28:38.290]  I promise you, it does not sound that bad on the videotape.
[28:38.370 --> 28:43.070]  I'm not quite sure why it sounds that bad here, but it's all digital, so it should have sounded good.
[28:43.170 --> 28:50.870]  But if you could see the kind of way we have this set up, you might understand that sometimes things don't get recorded quite properly.
[28:50.930 --> 28:53.990]  But I think you got the gist of what Steve Rambam was saying.
[28:53.990 --> 29:05.890]  A private investigator who spoke at H2K and went on for over an hour giving out all kinds of fascinating bits of information that the average person just does not know.
[29:05.950 --> 29:13.150]  The average person doesn't know how much information is kept on computers about them and what they can do to prevent this information from getting out.
[29:13.150 --> 29:18.530]  It's something that, in the hacker world, we're very familiar with how to protect privacy.
[29:18.650 --> 29:23.270]  We're familiar with how important privacy is, how fragile it is.
[29:23.530 --> 29:28.570]  And ironically, in the mass media, hackers get blamed as the attackers of privacy.
[29:29.390 --> 29:30.690]  It's not that way at all.
[29:30.810 --> 29:43.430]  The people who are out there to get the information are the people in government, the people in mass marketing, the people who just want to make a sale one way or the other by collecting as much information on you as possible.
[29:43.770 --> 29:48.790]  Well, this is one way to learn how to prevent that from happening, how to protect yourself.
[29:49.470 --> 29:52.630]  We're offering that video along with 16 others.
[29:52.890 --> 29:54.790]  That's a phenomenal amount of videos.
[29:54.850 --> 29:55.510]  That's a lot of video.
[29:55.510 --> 30:06.270]  A lot of it... this will... if you have, like, a lengthy illness or something, and you need to spend a lot of time indoors for, like, the next six months or something like that, this is the package for you.
[30:06.370 --> 30:12.350]  And if you don't, and if you just want to stay inside and watch something, or if you want to invite friends over, there's all kinds of possibilities here.
[30:12.550 --> 30:15.930]  16 tapes, each one about two hours long.
[30:16.090 --> 30:18.490]  It's about 32 hours of video right there from the conference.
[30:18.550 --> 30:20.750]  So if you missed the conference, this is the package for you.
[30:20.850 --> 30:21.870]  That's the invalid package?
[30:22.270 --> 30:24.510]  Well, I mean, you know, we're open to all different...
[30:24.510 --> 30:26.270]  All different types of people.
[30:26.490 --> 30:30.770]  Invalids, you know, people with all kinds of, you know...
[30:30.770 --> 30:31.210]  I don't know.
[30:31.390 --> 30:31.610]  I don't know.
[30:31.950 --> 30:33.910]  Reasons for sitting on a couch for 32 hours.
[30:34.170 --> 30:34.190]  Exactly.
[30:34.190 --> 30:34.350]  Yeah.
[30:35.170 --> 30:37.770]  If you have a videotape recorder, this is the thing to get.
[30:38.870 --> 30:41.610]  $125 pledge, 212-209-2950.
[30:41.610 --> 30:46.650]  So you will get 16... I'm sorry, 17 videos, including the Steve Rambam talk.
[30:47.910 --> 30:50.050]  Also, other things included in there.
[30:50.230 --> 30:59.150]  We'll be hearing a couple of excerpts from the hacktivism panel, where basically computer hackers mix with the world of activism, and it's called hacktivism.
[30:59.310 --> 31:00.410]  We'll learn something about that.
[31:00.950 --> 31:02.850]  We have the complete mock trial.
[31:03.030 --> 31:07.330]  If you recall last year, we were on trial for the DECSS program.
[31:07.330 --> 31:13.790]  Well, we conducted a little mock trial at the Hotel Pennsylvania during the H2K conference last July.
[31:13.990 --> 31:17.270]  And the results of that turned out a lot better than the results of the real trial.
[31:17.410 --> 31:20.690]  But it was also very educational and rather humorous.
[31:21.630 --> 31:23.250]  So you'll get that as well.
[31:23.450 --> 31:38.070]  You'll get the high school horror tales, finding all kinds of things that happen to kids in high schools these days, as far as invasion of privacy and being accused of being a computer hacker and what that means to your freedom.
[31:38.950 --> 31:48.370]  We have a special on Napster, a panel on Napster, how back in its, I guess, earlier days than now, certainly.
[31:49.130 --> 31:53.610]  And back before it was killed, as it was yesterday for the most part.
[31:55.470 --> 31:56.470]  All kinds of panels.
[31:56.590 --> 31:58.510]  But the important thing is to support the radio station.
[31:58.690 --> 32:00.390]  We have zero calls on the line.
[32:00.450 --> 32:01.770]  So I want to see a little better than that.
[32:01.890 --> 32:03.530]  212-209-2950.
[32:03.790 --> 32:10.950]  If you are at all interested in privacy, individual rights, individual liberties, then you need to see these videos.
[32:10.950 --> 32:11.590]  You really do.
[32:11.710 --> 32:13.530]  And we have a whole lot of them.
[32:13.710 --> 32:14.370]  A whole lot of them.
[32:14.370 --> 32:22.950]  17 in all, two hours each, of the H2K conference which took place last July here in New York City.
[32:23.330 --> 32:25.430]  Isaac, what are some of your memories of...
[32:26.130 --> 32:26.590]  H2K.
[32:26.770 --> 32:27.470]  H2K, yeah.
[32:28.450 --> 32:34.310]  It all was a big blur to me because I was running around trying to make sure everything was going on.
[32:34.310 --> 32:35.710]  For me, it was a lot more relaxed.
[32:35.950 --> 32:39.670]  I wasn't winding up trying to do everything like Beyond Hope.
[32:39.890 --> 32:40.030]  Uh-huh.
[32:40.190 --> 32:40.710]  We have one call.
[32:40.830 --> 32:42.290]  212-209-2950.
[32:42.570 --> 32:44.250]  You won't get this package anywhere else.
[32:44.270 --> 32:51.070]  In fact, if you go to the online store that we have, the 2600, you'll see that these videos go for much more than what we're offering them for tonight.
[32:51.330 --> 32:52.970]  So this...
[32:52.970 --> 32:56.950]  And we're probably not going to have any more after we do this because we're not going to be ordering these.
[32:57.070 --> 32:58.170]  It costs a lot to make videos.
[32:59.110 --> 33:03.030]  So take advantage of the deal now or forever regret it.
[33:03.290 --> 33:03.430]  Yep.
[33:03.730 --> 33:04.290]  I'm not kidding.
[33:04.510 --> 33:05.590]  They're not going to be around after this.
[33:05.590 --> 33:10.050]  I don't like to threaten people, but if you don't take advantage of it tonight, you're probably never going to get this chance again.
[33:10.690 --> 33:11.230]  H2K video.
[33:11.390 --> 33:12.310]  They've got two calls on the line.
[33:12.410 --> 33:14.130]  212-209-2950.
[33:15.670 --> 33:20.330]  Every single H2K video that was shot there at the H2K conference.
[33:21.130 --> 33:22.250]  We have four calls.
[33:22.390 --> 33:22.510]  Okay.
[33:22.590 --> 33:23.250]  This is good.
[33:23.490 --> 33:26.030]  I recall the keynote by Jelleby Offer.
[33:26.030 --> 33:26.750]  Oh, yeah, of course.
[33:26.750 --> 33:27.450]  I forgot.
[33:27.750 --> 33:29.350]  Jelleby Offer's keynote is in there as well.
[33:29.510 --> 33:30.030]  It's in there.
[33:30.210 --> 33:31.390]  Yeah, it's included.
[33:31.630 --> 33:38.930]  And you'll hear Jelleby Offer speaking about all kinds of issues of liberty and computer issues as well.
[33:39.010 --> 33:40.290]  He delves into the computer issues.
[33:40.370 --> 33:43.850]  Even though he doesn't have a computer himself, he was able to speak intelligently about that.
[33:43.970 --> 33:45.730]  212-209-2950.
[33:45.950 --> 33:47.810]  We have five calls on the line.
[33:47.970 --> 33:49.410]  It's very good to see support out there.
[33:50.130 --> 33:56.230]  More importantly, though, more importantly than you getting 17 videos in the mail, and you will get 17 videos in the mail.
[33:56.230 --> 33:56.670]  Big box.
[33:57.050 --> 33:58.290]  Well, it's a lot of boxes, actually.
[33:58.410 --> 33:58.830]  Is there many boxes?
[33:58.830 --> 34:01.130]  I think it's about four different boxes you get.
[34:01.270 --> 34:01.450]  Okay.
[34:01.690 --> 34:09.970]  And also, you will get them a lot faster than the people that pledged last pledge drive, who should have all gotten them by now, because we have them.
[34:10.270 --> 34:11.570]  Last time we were making them.
[34:11.730 --> 34:12.430]  Now we have them.
[34:12.850 --> 34:14.210]  They're sitting in a crate.
[34:14.330 --> 34:14.950]  They're ready to go.
[34:15.350 --> 34:18.390]  So as soon as you fulfill your pledge, they're going out to you, just like that.
[34:18.550 --> 34:18.870]  Out to you.
[34:19.090 --> 34:20.550]  212-209-2950.
[34:20.690 --> 34:23.870]  Make our volunteers busy, because they're all down there to answer phones.
[34:24.110 --> 34:25.350]  We don't want them chatting with each other.
[34:25.430 --> 34:26.090]  No, no, no, no.
[34:26.090 --> 34:26.810]  We can do that later.
[34:27.170 --> 34:27.970]  We can do that later.
[34:28.050 --> 34:35.750]  We want them to chat with you and help support the station at the same time, because that's the important reason for you to be calling.
[34:35.790 --> 34:36.850]  Not so much to get the videos.
[34:36.910 --> 34:37.810]  It's nice to get videos.
[34:37.810 --> 34:44.050]  We're happy to donate these to the radio station, but the most important thing is to keep this place going.
[34:44.230 --> 34:47.790]  And there's been a lot of talk about all the problems that have been going on over the years.
[34:48.030 --> 34:49.370]  And yeah, it's not just recent.
[34:49.590 --> 34:51.630]  It's not just something that's been going on over the last couple of months.
[34:52.110 --> 34:54.070]  BAI has a long and troubled history.
[34:54.410 --> 34:56.010]  Pacifica has a long and troubled history.
[34:56.250 --> 34:59.450]  It's always been the case, and it probably always will be the case.
[35:00.270 --> 35:08.690]  In a way, I hope it is the case that we are always in some kind of crisis mode, because when you're in crisis mode, you tend to be more alert.
[35:08.830 --> 35:11.670]  You tend to not let things just slip by.
[35:11.770 --> 35:15.310]  You tend to notice when something bad happens, and you tend to react to it.
[35:15.410 --> 35:17.270]  And that's the state we need our listeners in.
[35:17.290 --> 35:18.690]  That's the state we need our programmers in.
[35:18.810 --> 35:21.550]  And I think we're at our best when we're in that particular state.
[35:21.670 --> 35:23.850]  212-209-2950.
[35:24.230 --> 35:26.310]  Well, it's not a very comfortable state, but...
[35:26.310 --> 35:26.750]  No, it's not.
[35:26.890 --> 35:28.330]  It is highly efficient.
[35:28.490 --> 35:28.850]  It's not.
[35:29.030 --> 35:30.490]  It can be very stressful.
[35:30.490 --> 35:37.010]  And I really feel for people who are here more than once a week, like I am, who have to deal with this on an everyday basis.
[35:37.170 --> 35:39.310]  But running a radio station is no small task.
[35:39.690 --> 35:41.130]  Non-commercial, commercial, whatever.
[35:41.690 --> 35:42.130]  Commercial...
[35:42.130 --> 35:45.330]  I can go on about commercial stations until the cows come home.
[35:45.470 --> 35:55.410]  And how it's a waste of the electromagnetic spectrum, really, to just be on there hawking your wares and playing the same songs over and over again.
[35:55.590 --> 35:58.090]  Here at WBAI, we talk about important issues.
[35:58.690 --> 36:05.510]  And the issues that we just heard now, even though they sounded like crap on the radio, they'll sound much better when you hear them on video.
[36:05.690 --> 36:06.750]  And you get to see the people talking.
[36:06.750 --> 36:09.230]  And you can see people, too, which is also something we can't do on the air.
[36:10.170 --> 36:14.510]  But that kind of information is just not said on other radio stations.
[36:14.610 --> 36:15.350]  You know what's true.
[36:15.470 --> 36:17.410]  If you just go down the dial, it doesn't matter.
[36:17.410 --> 36:21.910]  Even if you go into non-commercial NPR-type stations, they just play music.
[36:21.910 --> 36:25.370]  You know, they play music and they do their light talk shows and things like that.
[36:25.490 --> 36:27.830]  But BAI has always been hard-hitting.
[36:27.950 --> 36:29.970]  But when you're hard-hitting, there's a price for that.
[36:30.110 --> 36:31.290]  There's a few prices for that.
[36:31.470 --> 36:32.430]  You know, there's stress.
[36:33.250 --> 36:36.690]  There's all kinds of conflict that happens every now and then.
[36:36.910 --> 36:37.970]  But it's necessary.
[36:38.170 --> 36:41.590]  And the other cost, which is also necessary, is financial.
[36:41.950 --> 36:44.330]  Because you'll notice, we're not breaking for commercials.
[36:44.670 --> 36:51.610]  We're not stopping to say that IBM has something to say to you or that it's time for you to drink a Coke or something like that.
[36:52.090 --> 36:53.270]  We're not saying any of that.
[36:54.210 --> 36:54.890]  Oh, I said it.
[36:54.970 --> 36:55.250]  I said it.
[36:55.370 --> 36:55.890]  Make a point.
[36:56.170 --> 36:57.430]  I'm not getting paid to say that.
[36:57.550 --> 36:58.390]  I'm not going to call you on that.
[36:58.530 --> 36:58.670]  Yeah.
[36:59.590 --> 37:00.870]  It's time to drink a Pepsi, too, there.
[37:00.930 --> 37:01.650]  I couldn't say both.
[37:01.790 --> 37:03.710]  There's no way I could possibly get away with that.
[37:03.830 --> 37:07.510]  But that's the kind of freedom that we're offered here by having a station that's supported by the listeners.
[37:07.850 --> 37:12.830]  You know, our hands are basically untied, and we can talk about the things that are of interest to you.
[37:12.970 --> 37:13.250]  Absolutely.
[37:13.250 --> 37:15.830]  And the only way we can do that is if we manage to support ourselves.
[37:16.050 --> 37:19.350]  So, please call 212-209-2950.
[37:19.510 --> 37:19.890]  Make a pledge.
[37:19.890 --> 37:22.730]  We have six calls on the line right now, which means we've filled up the entire first bank.
[37:22.890 --> 37:25.030]  I'd like to see a call going to the second bank.
[37:25.110 --> 37:25.970]  I would like to see that, too.
[37:25.970 --> 37:27.770]  It's always nice to see those lights light up as well.
[37:27.850 --> 37:28.810]  It's like a little Christmas tree.
[37:28.810 --> 37:29.570]  We have four banks.
[37:29.650 --> 37:32.150]  I don't know if anyone's ever lit up all four, but who knows?
[37:32.210 --> 37:33.470]  We'll give it a shot tonight.
[37:34.150 --> 37:35.610]  Well, we don't have that many volunteers.
[37:35.830 --> 37:36.930]  I don't know what's going to happen in there.
[37:38.170 --> 37:39.370]  212-209-2950.
[37:39.510 --> 37:39.890]  Okay, there we go.
[37:39.950 --> 37:40.310]  There's two more.
[37:40.590 --> 37:41.150]  Three more.
[37:41.230 --> 37:46.370]  I hope people aren't just calling to make the phone ring because that's not something that is very nice.
[37:46.790 --> 37:50.690]  And please, make sure that you fulfill your pledge because it does matter.
[37:50.890 --> 37:52.010]  It all adds up.
[37:53.410 --> 37:54.490]  We started at zero.
[37:54.670 --> 38:01.170]  I know the tally people haven't had a chance to actually add things up yet, but I see that's up to $4.50, but I know that hasn't taken into account all the ringing lines.
[38:01.310 --> 38:02.830]  So please, keep those phone calls coming in.
[38:02.890 --> 38:04.430]  212-209-2950.
[38:04.430 --> 38:19.750]  So, if there is any reason why you should call, if you're having doubts and all kinds of hesitation because of things that may have disturbed you in the past or in the present, just think of these words.
[38:20.050 --> 38:21.030]  These four words.
[38:21.190 --> 38:23.090]  This is the reason why you should pledge.
[38:24.190 --> 38:25.470]  Because we're still here.
[38:26.450 --> 38:29.370]  There'll be plenty of time not to pledge if we're not still here.
[38:29.370 --> 38:32.670]  But while we are here, we need your support.
[38:33.150 --> 38:34.450]  That's the reason right there.
[38:34.870 --> 38:37.510]  Yeah, things won't be 100% the way you want them to be.
[38:37.710 --> 38:45.290]  There may be all kinds of problems, but there are people here who are working really, really hard to do the best they can under the situation.
[38:45.710 --> 38:49.790]  And with support, I think it'll work out.
[38:50.310 --> 38:52.570]  But without support, I know it won't work out.
[38:52.670 --> 38:54.730]  You see, that's the one thing I'm sure of.
[38:54.850 --> 38:57.270]  Without support, it will definitely not work.
[38:57.270 --> 38:59.650]  With support, well, it just might.
[39:00.310 --> 39:01.530]  We won't know, though, unless you call.
[39:01.650 --> 39:03.770]  212-209-2950.
[39:03.970 --> 39:07.810]  You know, there are people who give up easily, but you know, they're probably not listening.
[39:08.550 --> 39:09.270]  What's the point?
[39:09.530 --> 39:10.830]  You know, if you've given up, why listen?
[39:11.390 --> 39:12.810]  If you give up, walk away.
[39:13.050 --> 39:14.870]  Someone else will come and take your place.
[39:15.470 --> 39:15.830]  Unfortunately.
[39:15.850 --> 39:17.510]  We want to have those people who think, though.
[39:17.550 --> 39:20.570]  We want to have those people who are committed to what BAI stands for.
[39:20.730 --> 39:22.430]  We don't want those people to walk away.
[39:23.230 --> 39:28.370]  So if you have your radio on, if you're listening, the other part of having the radio on and listening is contributing.
[39:28.650 --> 39:30.610]  212-209-2950.
[39:30.850 --> 39:32.110]  Because you're the sponsors.
[39:32.850 --> 39:33.590]  Not Coke.
[39:33.710 --> 39:34.170]  Not IBM.
[39:34.370 --> 39:34.790]  Not Pepsi.
[39:35.150 --> 39:35.530]  You.
[39:36.430 --> 39:37.930]  212-209-2950.
[39:38.030 --> 39:38.490]  Did we all...
[39:38.490 --> 39:40.950]  Wow, we actually got almost into the third bank.
[39:41.630 --> 39:42.070]  Wow.
[39:42.070 --> 39:42.470]  That's impressive.
[39:42.630 --> 39:43.310]  That's very impressive.
[39:43.890 --> 39:44.450]  All right.
[39:44.970 --> 39:46.090]  Well, my voice is getting tired.
[39:46.270 --> 39:48.510]  I know I played the other piece as well.
[39:49.310 --> 39:52.010]  We have two deals right now.
[39:52.290 --> 39:52.970]  We have two deals?
[39:53.050 --> 39:54.170]  Yeah, I'm going to announce the second deal.
[39:54.250 --> 39:59.470]  Might as well do it now in case people are kind of, you know, flip-flopping from one to the other.
[39:59.650 --> 40:01.250]  They need to have some kind of a choice.
[40:02.010 --> 40:06.890]  In addition to all the videos, 17 videos, we have a second option.
[40:07.070 --> 40:08.850]  And this is for a pledge of $200.
[40:09.450 --> 40:09.570]  Okay.
[40:10.110 --> 40:10.510]  $200.
[40:11.730 --> 40:14.730]  Every single back issue of 2600 back to 1984.
[40:15.290 --> 40:15.690]  Wow.
[40:15.690 --> 40:15.970]  Oh!
[40:16.710 --> 40:17.070]  Yes.
[40:17.390 --> 40:19.190]  Those are the stapled and folded over ones?
[40:19.350 --> 40:21.290]  Well, I don't know if they're folded over anymore.
[40:21.430 --> 40:25.830]  The original ones, when we sent them out in the little envelopes where it had to be folded, we never stapled.
[40:26.110 --> 40:26.610]  You never stapled?
[40:26.670 --> 40:28.990]  Well, we stapled, you know, the issues that are bound.
[40:29.110 --> 40:29.250]  Right.
[40:29.430 --> 40:33.050]  But no, the original 1984 through 86, those were sheets of paper.
[40:33.990 --> 40:34.430]  You see?
[40:34.730 --> 40:35.410]  Sheets of paper.
[40:35.730 --> 40:38.010]  They just had little holes punched in them.
[40:38.090 --> 40:38.530]  That's all.
[40:38.790 --> 40:38.910]  Wow.
[40:39.030 --> 40:46.030]  And in 1987, we continued to be monthly, but we adopted the current format of digest size with, I think, 24 pages.
[40:46.230 --> 40:46.570]  Right.
[40:46.690 --> 40:49.610]  And that turned out to be extremely expensive and also very time-consuming.
[40:49.810 --> 40:56.670]  So, in 1988, we decided to go quarterly and double the size, and we've been that way, increasing pages every few years ever since.
[40:57.270 --> 41:01.230]  So you can get every single issue we've ever published from 1984 to 2000.
[41:01.230 --> 41:09.290]  And you could have followed along with that whole line of reasoning by going through your own archives and pick out those 1984, 1985, 1986, 2600s.
[41:09.370 --> 41:13.070]  It's really cool to go back into the history, see what was going on at the time.
[41:13.210 --> 41:16.310]  Because it's not just, you know, pure technology.
[41:16.310 --> 41:19.010]  You've got a lot of social commentary on the events of the time.
[41:19.410 --> 41:24.870]  I mean, I go back to a 1989 issue I have, and we're talking about what was going on then.
[41:25.030 --> 41:26.610]  The Galactic Hacker Party, I remember that.
[41:26.730 --> 41:29.370]  The Galactic Hacker Party in Amsterdam, that was a turning point in 1989.
[41:29.370 --> 41:30.470]  That was a big thing.
[41:30.690 --> 41:31.770]  Every year has something.
[41:31.870 --> 41:39.830]  And if you really want to understand the hacker culture, and there really is a hacker culture, and it's fascinating, then reading the issues, I think, is the best way of doing that.
[41:39.870 --> 41:43.390]  Because we just have covered so much over the years.
[41:43.610 --> 41:44.870]  It's really amazing.
[41:45.290 --> 41:46.530]  The look has changed.
[41:46.690 --> 41:48.010]  The attitude has changed.
[41:48.270 --> 41:50.630]  The technology certainly has changed.
[41:50.770 --> 41:53.490]  I mean, back, you know, in 1984, what was technology like?
[41:53.510 --> 41:58.470]  We all had 300 baud modems, and, you know, we were using CompuServe, I think.
[41:58.470 --> 41:59.990]  Oh, CompuServe was great.
[42:00.150 --> 42:00.630]  And the source.
[42:01.070 --> 42:02.750]  Was AOL even around in 1984?
[42:03.010 --> 42:03.790]  Not to my knowledge.
[42:04.050 --> 42:04.950]  When did AOL start?
[42:05.310 --> 42:06.490]  It was probably a little later.
[42:06.710 --> 42:07.650]  86, 87.
[42:07.890 --> 42:08.090]  I don't...
[42:08.090 --> 42:08.850]  Those were the good old days.
[42:08.850 --> 42:09.430]  No AOL.
[42:09.530 --> 42:10.010]  Imagine that.
[42:10.490 --> 42:11.750]  Most people weren't on the net.
[42:11.870 --> 42:15.510]  Most people had UUCP connections, if they had any connection at all to the net.
[42:15.610 --> 42:15.690]  Sure.
[42:15.690 --> 42:16.850]  What was the net at that point?
[42:16.870 --> 42:18.010]  Yeah, there was no real net.
[42:18.310 --> 42:20.130]  It was NSF net, and that was...
[42:20.130 --> 42:22.710]  Addresses were separated with exclamation points known as bangs.
[42:23.070 --> 42:23.250]  Yes.
[42:23.450 --> 42:24.190]  That was kind of cool.
[42:24.190 --> 42:33.050]  It made it very consumer unfriendly, so nobody in their right mind who wasn't already a techie would want to have that kind of address that just went on for two lines.
[42:33.870 --> 42:35.330]  Some people still have addresses like that.
[42:35.390 --> 42:36.590]  They figured out ways of routing things.
[42:36.750 --> 42:37.110]  It's a lot of fun.
[42:37.250 --> 42:37.810]  Yeah, it is.
[42:38.010 --> 42:38.850]  You can be part of all that.
[42:38.950 --> 42:47.470]  You can see some of the things of the past, the predictions, things that never came true, the forgotten people of the past, all the people who have been imprisoned over the years.
[42:48.130 --> 42:55.130]  And, you know, even if you're not into technology at all, the social aspects of this are something which are simply staggering.
[42:55.290 --> 43:02.850]  To see how society has changed since 1984, to see how freedom has been compromised time and time again.
[43:03.170 --> 43:10.810]  I mean, there are things going on now that if we just suddenly adopted them back in 1984, it never would have been accepted.
[43:10.870 --> 43:11.890]  Oh, there would have been people in the streets.
[43:11.990 --> 43:13.950]  I remember when people were upset about caller ID.
[43:14.130 --> 43:16.630]  They said, caller ID, that's going to be a big invasion of our privacy.
[43:16.630 --> 43:18.190]  In fact, we talked about it on this radio show.
[43:18.630 --> 43:19.750]  Now it's just accepted.
[43:19.910 --> 43:21.030]  It's an everyday part of life.
[43:21.250 --> 43:22.430]  Nobody thinks twice about it.
[43:22.510 --> 43:26.370]  Well, now people are remiss from picking up the phone if they don't have the caller ID come across.
[43:26.950 --> 43:27.470]  That's right.
[43:27.750 --> 43:28.370]  A restricted number.
[43:28.410 --> 43:28.790]  What's that?
[43:28.830 --> 43:29.790]  Anonymous person calling.
[43:30.170 --> 43:31.670]  212-209-2950.
[43:31.830 --> 43:34.290]  Call to get every single back issue of 2600 Magazine.
[43:34.490 --> 43:37.490]  Going back to 1984, that's...
[43:37.490 --> 43:38.810]  Well, it's a lot of issues.
[43:38.990 --> 43:40.330]  I can't possibly do the multiplication.
[43:40.890 --> 43:46.110]  12 issues from 1984 to 1987, and then four issues a year from 1988 until the present.
[43:47.350 --> 43:49.970]  And believe me, that's a lot of reading.
[43:50.170 --> 43:50.590]  Many, yes.
[43:50.650 --> 43:53.730]  If you get that and you get the videos, that's it for the year for you.
[43:53.830 --> 43:55.890]  I mean, there's nothing else you'll have time for.
[43:55.950 --> 43:57.270]  Say goodbye to your friends and family.
[43:57.410 --> 43:59.550]  You're just going to disappear into your couch for...
[43:59.550 --> 44:02.870]  Or say hello to your friends and family and invite them in and share issues.
[44:03.010 --> 44:03.630]  I like that, too.
[44:03.630 --> 44:06.130]  And say, Uncle Edgar, Aunt Nelly, did you see this?
[44:06.170 --> 44:06.730]  This is amazing.
[44:06.950 --> 44:08.990]  Look at what they were doing with technology back in 1992.
[44:08.990 --> 44:13.630]  You sit them down on that couch, you make them watch those H2K videos, they'll enjoy it.
[44:13.750 --> 44:14.310]  I guarantee it.
[44:14.450 --> 44:15.990]  212-209-2950.
[44:16.150 --> 44:17.030]  So we have two options here.
[44:17.130 --> 44:22.810]  We have the full set of H2K videos, 17 videos, 34 hours, I guess.
[44:23.050 --> 44:23.730]  It's about that.
[44:23.810 --> 44:25.190]  Some are a little shorter, some are a little longer.
[44:25.190 --> 44:27.290]  And that's for a pledge of 125.
[44:28.370 --> 44:32.670]  And for a pledge of 200, every single back issue of 2600 Magazine.
[44:32.850 --> 44:35.770]  Now, I know there's about 200 people online right now listening to us.
[44:36.650 --> 44:48.130]  Thanks to our online people, our real audio and MP3 coders and streamers, we're able to get out to the entire world more so than just about any other show out there.
[44:48.670 --> 44:55.190]  And because of their hard efforts, people all around the world have been turned on to this program and to this radio station by extension.
[44:56.010 --> 44:57.710]  We'd like to hear from those people as well.
[44:57.770 --> 45:00.590]  And again, I should point out that any amount is welcome.
[45:00.910 --> 45:01.270]  Exactly.
[45:01.410 --> 45:02.230]  Yeah, it's not just...
[45:02.230 --> 45:05.930]  You're not just locked into those two specific price structures.
[45:05.930 --> 45:11.070]  If you got 30 bucks, if you got 50 bucks, if you got 20 bucks, if you got 2 bucks, I mean, we can use it.
[45:11.170 --> 45:15.570]  If you send it to us, we will definitely put it to use to bring you some of this kind of programming.
[45:15.570 --> 45:18.210]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[45:18.850 --> 45:22.010]  And again, any amount is welcome because it is going to a good cause.
[45:22.170 --> 45:23.130]  It's going to the radio station.
[45:23.770 --> 45:26.250]  And that keeps us going.
[45:26.430 --> 45:28.450]  So it's all a step-by-step process.
[45:28.710 --> 45:35.790]  Imagine if every single one of those 200 people listening now on the internet called and pledged simply 25 bucks.
[45:36.070 --> 45:36.990]  You got a calculator there?
[45:37.030 --> 45:37.670]  What would that come out to?
[45:37.710 --> 45:38.690]  Ooh, hang on.
[45:39.190 --> 45:40.250]  I got a very big calculator.
[45:40.290 --> 45:41.470]  Show you the power of numbers here, you know.
[45:42.070 --> 45:47.710]  Because if you're online, you have a computer, you have a phone line, you obviously have, you know, the means to do that.
[45:47.830 --> 45:48.810]  Why couldn't I do that in my head?
[45:48.810 --> 45:49.490]  It's $5,000.
[45:49.610 --> 45:50.070]  $5,000.
[45:50.210 --> 45:50.870]  Just like that.
[45:50.990 --> 45:51.510]  $5,000.
[45:51.790 --> 45:53.270]  212-209-2950.
[45:53.490 --> 45:56.130]  For those of you in other parts of the world, country code 1.
[45:56.650 --> 46:01.270]  So if you're in Europe, I think you dial 00, then 1, and then 212-209-2950.
[46:01.270 --> 46:07.650]  Okay, now let's get on to the second part of the H2K conference that we're highlighting here tonight.
[46:07.650 --> 46:14.910]  This is a discussion that took place, a part of a discussion that took place about hacktivism, cracking the hacker myth.
[46:15.430 --> 46:32.430]  And it featured three people, two from the Cult of the Dead Cow, Reed Fleming and Oxblood, and our own shapeshifter, the guy who does a layout for us, and the guy who was also imprisoned by the Philadelphia police for the Republican National Convention back in August.
[46:32.530 --> 46:37.330]  This was before that happened, so obviously you have a bit of historical perspective now.
[46:37.930 --> 46:39.390]  212-209-2950.
[46:39.390 --> 46:45.990]  Keep those calls coming in while we listen to a portion of this videotape, which is included in the H2K package.
[46:46.130 --> 46:52.610]  Again, the two packages, $125 for every single H2K video, $200 for every single $2,600 back issue.
[46:52.610 --> 46:56.710]  And I guess you could pledge $3.25 and get everything, if you really are...
[46:56.710 --> 46:57.170]  I like that.
[46:57.290 --> 46:57.410]  Yeah.
[46:57.910 --> 46:59.050]  Okay, then go ahead and do it.
[46:59.130 --> 47:00.410]  Walk right down the hall and...
[47:00.410 --> 47:01.050]  All right, well...
[47:01.050 --> 47:01.250]  Yeah.
[47:01.430 --> 47:02.510]  We'll get this started first.
[47:02.590 --> 47:03.010]  While this is...
[47:03.010 --> 47:04.490]  Let me just make sure I press the right buttons here.
[47:04.610 --> 47:05.330]  I'm pressing...
[47:05.330 --> 47:05.750]  Cast one.
[47:05.870 --> 47:06.190]  One.
[47:06.530 --> 47:06.850]  Okay.
[47:08.010 --> 47:08.450]  All right.
[47:08.610 --> 47:10.530]  Again, it's probably not going to sound great.
[47:10.790 --> 47:12.270]  The video is much, much better.
[47:13.450 --> 47:14.910]  But we'll just have to bear with it.
[47:15.490 --> 47:16.010]  Here goes.
[47:17.850 --> 47:25.910]  I've got a suggestion, because this seems to be a little bit more a workshop than a lecture, and I think that's okay.
[47:27.710 --> 47:37.210]  So, in the beginning, when defining hacktivism, it might be a good idea to say at least what hacktivism is not.
[47:37.490 --> 47:41.410]  Because I think the hacking community has to be very carefully...
[47:41.410 --> 47:46.450]  We live in the year 2000, if someone drops out of banks, he doesn't take a machine gun, he takes a computer.
[47:47.130 --> 47:50.150]  And if a political group having lots of bull...
[47:51.210 --> 48:03.430]  protesting against anything, there might be forums where we can say that's hacktivism, but if it comes to denial and service of the infrastructures, or we have that story with a legion of underground.
[48:03.950 --> 48:05.130]  I remember maybe.
[48:05.270 --> 48:06.890]  Maybe you can say some words to that.
[48:07.450 --> 48:09.790]  So, I don't want to be involved in terrorism.
[48:09.850 --> 48:22.270]  And I think it's very important for hackers to say we are driven by curiosity and not by denial of service, which is vandalism, or by, you know, financial interest in robbing banks, or whatever.
[48:22.590 --> 48:35.870]  So, I think it might be a good idea to make a list what is hacktivism at least from the motivation, and what's it not, to get also in the media a little bit more sharpened picture on this.
[48:36.050 --> 48:36.470]  Sure.
[48:38.390 --> 48:45.970]  Although, I don't know if you were here for the last panel, the prospects of educating the media are kind of poor, I guess, but...
[48:45.970 --> 48:47.050]  Yes, I was.
[48:47.150 --> 48:51.290]  And that's the reason why I'm standing up, because I think it's a sad picture.
[48:51.610 --> 48:57.370]  If there's a hacker conference, and then we talk about what is hacking, and someone says, oh, it might be this, it might be this.
[48:57.370 --> 48:59.350]  So, I mean, read the hacker ethics.
[48:59.410 --> 49:00.370]  It's written down.
[49:00.550 --> 49:04.450]  Hackers want information to be free, so it has to do with learning by doing.
[49:04.590 --> 49:06.150]  It has to do with curiosity.
[49:06.890 --> 49:10.670]  And it has not to do, maybe not even to do with computers.
[49:11.190 --> 49:11.910]  For me.
[49:12.170 --> 49:12.330]  Okay.
[49:12.650 --> 49:14.750]  I mean, computers are just a tool.
[49:15.170 --> 49:19.710]  And tools might change, but the motivation should not change.
[49:19.710 --> 49:25.410]  Because otherwise, it might be like getting a hammer in your hand, and then the whole world looks like nails.
[49:25.610 --> 49:27.150]  And that's a dangerous situation.
[49:27.830 --> 49:28.110]  Right.
[49:28.950 --> 49:30.650]  Those are good comments and questions.
[49:32.190 --> 49:43.830]  I'm a little afraid to step forward and say what is hacktivism and what it is not, because I think intelligent people can have serious disagreements over this.
[49:45.710 --> 50:04.650]  Myself, and I think for the rest of the CDC, we agree that we should not be denying access to the internet or to particular websites just because you disagree with the content on it, whether that's a corporate site or, you know, a political site that you happen to disagree with greatly.
[50:06.010 --> 50:22.710]  I think we believe that more speech is better speech, that, you know, if you're serious about the marketplace of ideas that the internet is supposed to be, that you're not going to go try to damage infrastructure on a country level, on a website level,
[50:22.870 --> 50:25.870]  on a, you know, whatever backbone level.
[50:27.330 --> 50:38.230]  I think one of the issues that will be evolving over time and we'll have to figure out how to deal with it is part of the whole activist perspective is the issue of civil disobedience.
[50:38.710 --> 50:41.310]  It's something we saw through the civil rights movement.
[50:41.510 --> 50:49.510]  It's probably the easiest example in the United States where groups, certain groups, broke the law on the land because, in their view, it was immoral.
[50:49.950 --> 50:57.390]  So there's always been sort of this idea of occasionally breaking the law to further social justice.
[50:57.390 --> 51:01.550]  Now, in certain instances, it's extremely clear.
[51:01.850 --> 51:08.290]  You know, apartheid, the issues of civil rights issues in the United States and other things.
[51:09.090 --> 51:11.070]  And over time, these things have been addressed.
[51:11.270 --> 51:15.070]  But a lot of people were arrested and they sought to be arrested.
[51:15.130 --> 51:26.530]  And this is one of the things that I'm almost worried about with hacktivism, that people may make excuses to do something rather extreme.
[51:28.530 --> 51:32.330]  And who's going to decide, well, is this a good idea or is it not?
[51:32.330 --> 51:33.410]  Is this moral or not?
[51:33.530 --> 51:37.510]  I mean, at the end of the day, the public is going to decide whether they agree with something or not.
[51:38.510 --> 51:41.530]  But this is going to be something that's definitely going to be coming up.
[51:41.530 --> 51:50.910]  And I don't know, like, if you're like me, occasionally you read Wired News and you find out that somebody has defaced a certain website and they're saying that it's hacktivism.
[51:52.410 --> 51:53.850]  I'm often very confused.
[51:53.970 --> 52:00.730]  I can't tell often the difference between somebody defacing a webpage and somebody saying they're doing it for political reasons.
[52:00.770 --> 52:06.270]  I think it's become somewhat convenient to saying, you know, one is doing this for hacktivist reasons.
[52:07.470 --> 52:13.150]  And there are quite a few gray areas, as there are all throughout hacking in general.
[52:17.170 --> 52:17.950]  I don't know.
[52:20.830 --> 52:23.150]  One small comment on your question.
[52:24.190 --> 52:25.030]  Real brief.
[52:25.310 --> 52:29.410]  Twitty Fish, I think, actually laid out a pretty good ground rule for whether or not it's hacktivism.
[52:29.590 --> 52:33.730]  That is, did you pick your cause before you picked the site?
[52:33.730 --> 52:37.130]  You know, I think that's a pretty, that's a pretty logical thing.
[52:38.550 --> 52:39.450]  That's all I wanted to add.
[52:42.150 --> 52:47.210]  First of all, I want to say, Mr. Vyafra, I remember getting wounded at your shows 15, 16 years ago.
[52:48.490 --> 52:50.690]  I'm a little younger than Mr. Jello Vyafra.
[52:50.790 --> 52:51.290]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[52:51.390 --> 52:53.450]  I had to put the hat louder.
[52:53.770 --> 52:55.450]  Okay, well, good thing I didn't say that very loud.
[52:56.350 --> 52:57.730]  But my question is this.
[52:57.910 --> 52:58.850]  I had an experience.
[52:58.970 --> 53:01.590]  I read a Bruce Sterling book recently called Distraction.
[53:01.590 --> 53:18.390]  And in Distraction, and I believe this was written before the WTO demonstrations, there were some very interesting things that he talked about in terms of people organizing and in very interesting ways in doing things to promote change using old-school technology,
[53:18.530 --> 53:26.630]  new-school technology, using identity-changing things, using economic systems that were not part of the mainstream economic system.
[53:27.350 --> 53:28.330]  I read that.
[53:28.450 --> 53:33.990]  I got very interested in hacktivism, I suppose, because it was a science fiction book.
[53:34.810 --> 53:46.830]  And I went through a bunch of East Willis bookstores and activist bookstores in New York, and I found nothing except a lot of leftist rhetoric that was mostly anti-technological.
[53:46.830 --> 53:52.050]  And my question is, I think it's important for the activist community, and I'm not...
[53:52.050 --> 53:57.130]  whether it's leftist or some other term applies better, I don't care.
[53:57.350 --> 54:10.390]  I think it's important for people that are pro-technology and see their uses, the positive uses of technology, to communicate with theorists who I think are very used to seeing technology as a negative thing.
[54:10.390 --> 54:13.070]  And I'm wondering, is there a way?
[54:13.210 --> 54:17.270]  How can we get together and communicate with, quote-unquote, the other side?
[54:17.890 --> 54:19.630]  I have been in parts of both.
[54:19.630 --> 54:25.230]  I've been an activist, and I'm also kind of pro-technology for certain reasons.
[54:25.450 --> 54:27.530]  And what can be done to unite these two people?
[54:27.570 --> 54:37.370]  I think if leftists or activists can see the uses of technology in a certain light, there will be a lot less rhetoric against it.
[54:37.530 --> 54:41.550]  And there will be a lot more movement in certain directions that may be activist-oriented.
[54:42.850 --> 54:47.710]  But I have no idea how these type of negotiations would take place.
[54:47.870 --> 54:49.810]  Well, I can sort of answer that.
[54:50.130 --> 54:54.850]  I think technology, it's bad in some aspects, and it's good in others.
[54:55.030 --> 55:00.470]  It's bad when an oil company has the technology and they're drilling on somebody's native land.
[55:00.470 --> 55:06.410]  And I think that's a bad application of technology or when it's used for things like nuclear weapons.
[55:06.430 --> 55:09.450]  I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all.
[55:09.630 --> 55:18.690]  I mean, you're going to blow up half of the world so they can show how big your guns are or how big your technology is or how tough you are.
[55:19.250 --> 55:24.530]  I think some applications of technology are just completely useless and bad.
[55:24.530 --> 55:42.950]  But then there's other things like in demonstrations and most of the WTO demonstrations and the A16 demonstrations in D.C., we had a whole communications network set up where we could tell what was going on across the entire city, like what the police were doing,
[55:43.090 --> 55:44.270]  what the delegates were doing.
[55:44.390 --> 55:46.870]  We were able to coordinate using that technology.
[55:46.930 --> 55:56.250]  So I think communications technology can be good when it's in the hands of activists and social justice activists and also there's the issue of the independent media.
[55:56.870 --> 56:12.510]  The independent media was maybe by using like they had a high-speed connection to the Internet and that helped the social justice activists in that we got our story unedited to massive amounts of people.
[56:12.510 --> 56:20.750]  There was...we had satellite uplinks and people in cable access TV stations around the country were able to download that.
[56:20.910 --> 56:28.530]  So I think at the hands of...we sort of democratize the use of technology, then we can...like it's totally useful.
[56:28.770 --> 56:37.730]  But as far as Microsoft and, you know, you name it, what corporation, I don't think they should have the control of technology.
[56:39.390 --> 56:47.190]  Not to disagree, you raise a lot of points that I totally agree with, but I'm really setting this up wrong.
[56:49.110 --> 56:58.490]  I think if you're my kind of hacktivist, your particular political opinions don't really enter into it.
[56:58.610 --> 57:04.330]  I don't particularly care if you happen to be very liberal in most political issues or conservative.
[57:04.330 --> 57:11.010]  It's really not my thing, but the thing I'm most interested in is what do you think about global Internet liberties?
[57:11.370 --> 57:23.570]  You know, what do you think about, you know, citizens of the world being able to access the Internet, being able to browse the web and send mail to whoever they want without interference from their government or tracking?
[57:23.850 --> 57:30.310]  You know, they need to be able to have free speech, privacy, access, and encryption.
[57:30.310 --> 57:39.530]  And if you're for those things, I think you are, by default, a hacktivist, or you're a hacktivist-synthetizer.
[57:41.210 --> 57:48.550]  The only thing that, one thing you said that sort of, like, makes a question to me is that most people don't have access to the Internet.
[57:48.830 --> 57:48.950]  Right.
[57:49.190 --> 57:52.210]  The majority of the people on this planet don't have access to the Internet.
[57:52.210 --> 57:52.550]  Exactly.
[57:52.930 --> 57:54.210]  And that's a big gap.
[57:54.390 --> 57:59.090]  And right now, the way it is, most people don't have enough resources to get a computer.
[58:00.290 --> 58:14.110]  And that's sort of a mark of the economic system we're currently in is capitalism sort of makes sure that some people get a whole lot of money and then most of the rest of the world has to support those few people and their habits.
[58:14.110 --> 58:16.030]  Well, I agree entirely.
[58:16.250 --> 58:38.870]  Although, I don't know if you noticed, it was a very small blurb in the San Jose Mercury News last month, but I think it was three paragraphs stating that the United Nations had released a report predicting that by the end of 2004, every single human being on the planet will be within half a day's walk of an Internet terminal.
[58:40.310 --> 58:46.550]  Whether or not they will have money to pay for it is a different story.
[58:48.250 --> 58:58.770]  And whether or not their government will allow them to access the news sites they want to actually read or publish information for that matter, that's a different story.
[58:58.950 --> 59:03.670]  But the raw hardware will be there in a very short order, I think.
[59:04.910 --> 59:13.770]  So I think it's interesting that there's sort of, not two sides of this issue, but two different perspectives, you from the direct action side and us from the hacking community.
[59:13.990 --> 59:19.030]  I think it's very valuable that as many people as possible get a hold of computers and do have access.
[59:19.330 --> 59:26.190]  I think that's one particular challenge and it's very noble work to really initiate and get that going.
[59:26.190 --> 59:35.330]  My particular take on this is, I want to make sure that when those people do get onto the Internet, that it's still essentially free.
[59:36.010 --> 59:40.330]  The things that I'm looking at really have to do specifically with Internet freedoms.
[59:41.330 --> 59:46.650]  And I have all kinds of respect and compassion for what's going down on the Earth.
[59:46.650 --> 59:51.890]  But what I can actually do is happening a little closer to technology.
[59:52.190 --> 01:00:10.450]  And I think that that in itself, I mean, that kind of work has been going on for a long time, of people trying to keep the Internet free and scientifically pure and open to as many people as possible and as uncontrolled as possible and as close to its original intent as possible.
[01:00:13.430 --> 01:00:14.210]  Hello.
[01:00:14.210 --> 01:00:14.990]  Sorry.
[01:00:15.390 --> 01:00:17.490]  My name is Ricardo Dominguez.
[01:00:17.610 --> 01:00:23.110]  I'm from the Electronic Disturbance Theater and also a former member of the Critical Art Ensemble.
[01:00:23.950 --> 01:00:34.370]  Two books that might be useful, The Electronic Disturbance and Electronic Civil Disobedience and Other Unpopular Ideas, published by Autonomedia.
[01:00:34.370 --> 01:00:54.070]  Also, the Electronic Disturbance Theater initiated a series of weak denial of service systems or powerful symbolic presence or virtual sit-ins on President Cedillo's website all through 1998 in response to the Optial massacre against the Zapatista communities.
[01:00:54.070 --> 01:01:03.250]  But I've had a brief dialogue with both CDC and some other communities, not directly but indirectly.
[01:01:03.710 --> 01:01:10.870]  And the critique of direct action versus free speech, I think, is very important.
[01:01:11.430 --> 01:01:14.390]  Both of them, I think, as you said, are valid issues.
[01:01:14.390 --> 01:01:25.350]  But again, as Puidi, I think, has pointed out, if one has been grounded in long-term activism, that is, I was working with the Zapatistas since the beginning.
[01:01:25.550 --> 01:01:38.750]  I was already thinking about electronic civil disobedience since the 80s in terms of its relationship to ACT UP and AIDS activism and what we could do in terms of force multiplying the voice of a community.
[01:01:39.810 --> 01:01:42.010]  And I agree that if we were to do...
[00:01.000 --> 00:04.440]  Probably to put electronic civil disobedience into.
[00:04.760 --> 00:10.340]  But one of the agendas that we have been trying to put forth is nonviolent direct action.
[00:10.580 --> 00:12.640]  How does that happen online?
[00:12.720 --> 00:16.580]  And how can it also help people on the streets?
[00:17.280 --> 00:37.320]  And one way that it can help in implementing more nonviolent direct action is to make sure that the information war ecologies, be they right or left, such as Wynne Schwartov or Dorothy Dennings, is that they try to understand the difference between electronic civil disobedience,
[00:37.800 --> 00:39.820]  cyber terrorism, and cyber crime.
[00:39.820 --> 00:46.380]  And I think, to a certain extent, the hacktivist communities has been rather victorious.
[00:46.380 --> 00:52.220]  Just recently, on May 23rd, Dorothy Dennings presented to the U.S.
[00:52.920 --> 00:59.240]  Arms Appropriation Committee on Cyberterrorism her dialogue on cyberterrorism.
[00:59.240 --> 01:07.140]  And she specifically mentions the electronic hippies, the electronic disturbance theater, I believe Cult of the Dead Cow, and a few others.
[01:07.140 --> 01:10.540]  And she specifically states that this is not cyber terrorism.
[01:10.680 --> 01:12.260]  It is not cyber crime.
[01:13.280 --> 01:26.580]  And I think, to a certain extent, that does allow and give us a certain amount of leverage, especially when we're dealing with the media, which is ultimately the kind of process, whether we want it or not, the way it spreads itself out.
[01:27.240 --> 01:29.200]  Anyway, it was more of a statement than a question.
[01:29.360 --> 01:34.680]  But I do also wanted to thank all of you for the fine, fine work that you have done and continue to do.
[01:35.020 --> 01:35.460]  Thank you.
[01:35.880 --> 01:36.300]  Thank you.
[01:40.400 --> 01:44.420]  Okay, we're going to have to break away there, much as I could sit around listening to this all day.
[01:44.580 --> 01:46.660]  I've already listened to it a few times.
[01:46.740 --> 01:47.460]  That's fascinating stuff.
[01:47.580 --> 01:47.880]  It is.
[01:47.940 --> 01:48.420]  It really is.
[01:48.540 --> 01:54.280]  And the audience was pretty much kept in rapture by all the different things that were going on.
[01:54.340 --> 02:07.420]  Whether it's Steve Rambam, the private eye, Jello Biafra, whether it's Reed Fleming, Oxblood, and Shapeshifter talking about hacktivism, and all the many, many other panels that took place at H2K.
[02:07.420 --> 02:08.560]  It was a great deal of fun.
[02:08.700 --> 02:15.000]  We're offering the whole thing, the whole package for a pledge of $125 to 212-209-2950.
[02:15.000 --> 02:23.720]  Well, 17 videotapes, over 30 hours of video, and of course, it sounds much better than the way we just heard it on the air, because we had to really scramble.
[02:23.840 --> 02:35.300]  Mike, thanks very much for, well, whatever it is you did to make it possible, grabbing MP3s off the net and putting them up onto the, well, it wasn't anything illegal, because there are MP3s, you know.
[02:35.300 --> 02:37.000]  Well, we're not pirating.
[02:37.140 --> 02:38.280]  They didn't use Napster to do this, right?
[02:38.580 --> 02:38.800]  No.
[02:39.020 --> 02:39.140]  No.
[02:39.520 --> 02:40.580]  And Napster is no more.
[02:40.680 --> 02:41.860]  Well, actually, is Napster no more?
[02:42.020 --> 02:42.580]  Yeah, not really.
[02:42.760 --> 02:42.880]  Yeah.
[02:42.880 --> 02:46.280]  They were given a brief stay of execution by the Ninth Circuit Court.
[02:47.000 --> 02:51.320]  They're waiting for clarification from the lower court, but, you know, imagine a couple of days and it's gone.
[02:52.000 --> 02:53.400]  212-209-2950.
[02:53.580 --> 03:08.220]  We have two packages, $125 for every single one of the videos, including everything you've heard tonight from the H2K conference, or a $200 pledge for every single back issue of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, which started off as a monthly back in 1984.
[03:09.020 --> 03:12.540]  We have all those historical old issues and hysterical, too, to some degree.
[03:12.720 --> 03:13.140]  Oh, that's great.
[03:13.140 --> 03:17.480]  That goes all the way up to 2,000, and that's 17 years' worth of issues.
[03:17.960 --> 03:19.240]  Kevin Mitnick's on the line with us.
[03:19.300 --> 03:20.100]  Kevin, isn't that a great deal?
[03:20.740 --> 03:21.940]  That's an excellent deal.
[03:22.140 --> 03:24.080]  Where do I send my money?
[03:24.280 --> 03:25.920]  Ah, well, it's very simple.
[03:26.040 --> 03:35.040]  First, all you have to do is give a call to the pledge line, and then they'll take you a pledge, send you out a little reminder, or if you use a credit card, Visa, MasterCard, or American Express.
[03:35.240 --> 03:36.140]  I don't use anybody's credit card.
[03:36.240 --> 03:37.360]  No, use your credit card.
[03:37.480 --> 03:38.100]  Yeah, that's okay.
[03:38.240 --> 03:42.220]  Don't use any of those 2,000 credit card, or 20,000 credit card numbers lying around from Netcom.
[03:42.320 --> 03:42.860]  No, don't use those.
[03:43.680 --> 03:45.040]  Those are expired already.
[03:45.240 --> 03:45.960]  Yeah, they must be.
[03:46.100 --> 03:46.640]  They must be.
[03:46.680 --> 03:47.200]  You think so?
[03:48.160 --> 03:49.040]  Kevin, how have you been?
[03:49.860 --> 04:02.580]  Oh, I'm pretty much leading a life of, you know, good things and negative things that have been happening in my life, and just today, as I'm moving into my own apartment, finally, in Camarillo.
[04:02.940 --> 04:05.100]  Now, that's not the state hospital, by the way.
[04:05.160 --> 04:06.840]  It's a public apartment.
[04:07.580 --> 04:08.220]  Well, that's good.
[04:08.220 --> 04:11.300]  I don't know if you heard this, but they had a Camarillo State Mental Hospital here.
[04:11.800 --> 04:21.840]  And, but in any event, that aside, I'm excited because I'm starting a talk radio show kind of called The Dark Side of the Internet, which is going to...
[04:21.840 --> 04:22.640]  That sounds fascinating.
[04:23.420 --> 04:23.540]  Yeah.
[04:23.540 --> 04:24.060]  That sounds really...
[04:24.060 --> 04:24.900]  What station?
[04:26.160 --> 04:27.880]  It's on KFI AM 640.
[04:28.160 --> 04:29.700]  And you can get it over the web.
[04:30.220 --> 04:31.640]  And they also have a webcam.
[04:32.140 --> 04:33.380]  So that will be pretty cool.
[04:33.440 --> 04:35.260]  And I'm going to have a co-host.
[04:35.400 --> 04:36.580]  His name is Tim Kelly.
[04:36.780 --> 04:38.140]  He currently does the Tim and Neil show.
[04:38.240 --> 04:38.760]  Yeah, Tim and Neil.
[04:38.820 --> 04:40.260]  I've listened to that when I was out in Los Angeles.
[04:40.360 --> 04:41.120]  I used to listen to that show.
[04:41.580 --> 04:43.180]  Yeah, so Tim is going to be my co-host.
[04:43.680 --> 04:54.300]  And what Tim is going to be very valuable because since I can't use a computer or the Internet and the show is going to be about the Internet, how is Kevin going to get the information?
[04:54.620 --> 04:57.560]  So Tim is going to be my proxy to the Internet.
[04:57.560 --> 05:07.420]  Of course, he'll be a valuable contribution in any event, but he will be able to help me get information that would otherwise not be accessible to me.
[05:08.200 --> 05:08.800]  That's great.
[05:08.880 --> 05:10.460]  That is a really good station, too.
[05:10.520 --> 05:12.180]  I've listened to it many times when I'm out there.
[05:12.180 --> 05:13.340]  They have very interesting talk shows.
[05:13.540 --> 05:16.800]  And I think this is something that people will be very fascinated with.
[05:16.920 --> 05:18.900]  Now, you're starting this Friday coming up?
[05:19.080 --> 05:19.860]  Yeah, this Friday.
[05:20.000 --> 05:23.700]  The first show is from 9 to 10 Pacific Standard Time.
[05:23.920 --> 05:24.480]  Okay, Pacific Standard Time.
[05:24.480 --> 05:30.860]  And so if you check out www.kfi640.com if you're not in the listening area.
[05:30.980 --> 05:32.560]  I don't know how far KFI goes.
[05:32.700 --> 05:34.620]  It's a 50-watt transmitter on AM.
[05:35.400 --> 05:37.340]  You might be able to hear it all the way down to Denver.
[05:37.340 --> 05:37.860]  I don't know.
[05:38.000 --> 05:41.960]  Well, they have this guy on there that I always listen to named Phil Hendry, who's a genius as far as radio.
[05:41.960 --> 05:44.980]  Yeah, he's like Gene Shepard and Bob and Ray mixed together.
[05:45.260 --> 05:48.520]  It's just unbelievable the things that they can do with radio.
[05:50.600 --> 05:52.720]  It's good to know that you're getting involved in that.
[05:52.960 --> 05:53.360]  I'm sorry?
[05:53.540 --> 05:54.900]  Yeah, it's a great opportunity.
[05:54.900 --> 05:56.740]  I hope that the show is successful.
[05:57.560 --> 06:13.520]  There's a lot of things happening on the Internet that's kind of on the darker side, like identity theft, credit card theft, that's, you know, auction windows, you know, child solicitation, you know, just a whole bunch of different areas, you know, porn,
[06:13.680 --> 06:14.060]  Napster.
[06:14.380 --> 06:23.600]  You know, I wasn't surprised that the Ninth Circuit kind of went along with the record companies in that regard.
[06:23.600 --> 06:28.640]  I always assumed they would have because, you know, all these corporations have a lot of money which buys power.
[06:28.820 --> 06:35.580]  Yeah, but, you know, it's so unrealistic because how are they ever going to prevent people from trading music freely on the net?
[06:35.740 --> 06:37.060]  There's just no way they can ever do it.
[06:37.540 --> 06:42.360]  And Nutella, it's impossible because with peer-to-peer networks, how are they going to control that?
[06:42.460 --> 06:43.520]  There's no way possible.
[06:43.700 --> 06:53.140]  What they can do is shut down Nap, you know, shut down systems that use the Napster model, but there is no way to prevent it.
[06:53.380 --> 06:54.480]  I mean, there's a...
[06:56.000 --> 07:07.780]  It's like the old copy protection of the 1970s, early 80s where all these companies were spending, you know, zillions of dollars trying to copy protect their software and, you know, within a couple days there was already a crack-out for it.
[07:07.860 --> 07:08.340]  That's right.
[07:08.440 --> 07:15.660]  And the thing that people seem to forget about, and no one really pays attention to this as far as Napster, Napster isn't really the means by which you transfer files.
[07:15.660 --> 07:18.580]  It's simply the directory that points you to people that have them.
[07:18.840 --> 07:34.200]  So it's simply a directory server, Right, and what the Ninth Circuit ruled is that the people that are running Napster have knowledge that people are trading copyrighted works, that there's contributory copyright infringement.
[07:34.460 --> 07:35.700]  But what about the...
[07:35.700 --> 07:37.620]  You know, one case that went to the U.S.
[07:37.680 --> 07:40.080]  Supreme Court, I think, was when the...
[07:41.300 --> 07:44.860]  when corporations didn't want VCRs out on the market.
[07:44.860 --> 07:46.680]  I think it was the Betamax case.
[07:46.680 --> 07:52.000]  I don't remember because people were going to, you know, display copyrighted work.
[07:52.200 --> 07:56.800]  And apparently the Supreme Court ruled that, you know, that...
[07:58.340 --> 07:59.720]  that they couldn't be stopped.
[07:59.860 --> 08:02.100]  I didn't read the entire case.
[08:02.240 --> 08:03.180]  They brought up the whole thing.
[08:03.200 --> 08:03.840]  I read some excerpts of it.
[08:03.920 --> 08:04.840]  I don't know if you recall, Eric.
[08:04.940 --> 08:05.580]  Do you remember that case?
[08:05.600 --> 08:09.420]  Well, I recall all kinds of different forms of technology coming out.
[08:09.420 --> 08:12.640]  And I recall the powers that be always fighting them.
[08:12.720 --> 08:18.660]  Whether it be videotapes, whether it be cable TV, whether it be, you know, audio cassettes.
[08:19.280 --> 08:19.820]  They're always...
[08:19.820 --> 08:20.620]  It wouldn't be DVDs, though, would it?
[08:20.880 --> 08:22.200]  It wouldn't go after DVD stuff.
[08:22.200 --> 08:31.060]  Well, see, DVDs is something that they that they carefully orchestrated so that they would make the most money from the start with the region coding and the encryption and all that kind of nonsense.
[08:32.060 --> 08:35.860]  So this is what happens when you let them control it from the start.
[08:39.420 --> 08:40.100]  They control the market.
[08:40.240 --> 08:41.340]  Well, in their eyes, that's true.
[08:41.720 --> 08:43.180]  Yeah, in their eyes, it's all about money.
[08:44.820 --> 08:46.360]  So what else have you been up to?
[08:47.200 --> 08:51.660]  Well, you know, the radio show, I've moved into my own place.
[08:51.660 --> 08:53.520]  I'm going to be doing a...
[08:55.360 --> 09:03.640]  I guess you'd call it sort of a speaking engagement slash Q&A with an organization called DefCom that's in Denmark.
[09:03.640 --> 09:05.060]  They do information security.
[09:05.300 --> 09:06.780]  So I'm going to be doing that, actually.
[09:07.480 --> 09:07.900]  I have to...
[09:07.900 --> 09:15.320]  After I leave KFI, I have to go down to a studio in Los Angeles so they can satellite the interview to Denmark because, obviously, I can't travel.
[09:15.600 --> 09:18.480]  So those are the two things of work-related that I'm doing.
[09:18.680 --> 09:23.560]  Other than that, my father is still very, very ill.
[09:24.440 --> 09:26.420]  And, you know, he's been diagnosed with cancer.
[09:26.580 --> 09:31.940]  And so his life isn't doing that well, you know, on the family side of things.
[09:32.280 --> 09:35.680]  But that's really basically what's, you know, happening with me.
[09:36.320 --> 09:38.980]  I'm trying to keep up with everything that I possibly can.
[09:39.160 --> 09:43.640]  I still give a lot of letters and words of encouragement from a lot of people.
[09:43.800 --> 09:50.360]  I don't know if you recall the controversy that was over auctioning off my prison ID card on eBay?
[09:50.360 --> 09:53.040]  Yes, yeah, that certainly was an adventure.
[09:53.520 --> 09:56.320]  But you finally got it auctioned off on a foreign site, I believe.
[09:56.600 --> 10:02.780]  Yeah, a guy in Switzerland purchased it for $4,000, which was a surprise to me.
[10:02.980 --> 10:06.660]  And the other ID card went for $2,000 to a gentleman in France.
[10:06.960 --> 10:17.860]  But what was interesting is the federal government was so upset about it that I understand they called my probation officer to have him determine whether or not I violated any sort of rule or law.
[10:18.500 --> 10:25.920]  And, you know, after they fully investigated it, they realized that this card was given to me when I left, and it was mine to do what I chose.
[10:26.240 --> 10:35.020]  And somebody suggested that people wanted it to be auctioned, so that's what a family member did, and it caused a big boo-ha-ha.
[10:35.020 --> 10:37.440]  Well, I think almost anything you do will cause that.
[10:37.600 --> 10:40.980]  But, well, at least you've been through one year of your supervised release.
[10:41.120 --> 10:42.040]  You have two more to go.
[10:42.380 --> 10:47.600]  Hopefully the time will fly, and then you can once again get online, use computers, catch up with technology.
[10:47.600 --> 10:49.080]  It would be nice to have that happen.
[10:49.460 --> 10:50.980]  Kevin, one other thing before we go.
[10:50.980 --> 11:07.100]  I just wanted to mention, I don't know if you heard about this, but the film, Takedown, the one that we've been trying to stop from misrepresenting you for these many years, and the film that started our own film, Freedom Downtime, and it was released in France last spring,
[11:07.120 --> 11:17.460]  and now it's out on DVD, and since I have one of those magical Apex DVD players that doesn't have a region code on it, I was able to actually buy it from Amazon.fr and have it sent over here.
[11:17.520 --> 11:22.360]  It's called Cybertrack, and on there is an interview with you.
[11:23.320 --> 11:25.160]  Right, that's what I understand.
[11:25.620 --> 11:43.400]  Back when they were going to premiere the film in Paris, a group, I don't recall the name, a company approached me asking if I would agree to do some interviews, and I agreed to do them, and I knew that they were going to use it to market that movie, Cybertrack,
[11:43.560 --> 12:01.700]  to market it for its premiere, and in fact, during my interviews, I basically stated my position that this film is a bunch of BS, that it's not Kevin Mitnick, it doesn't portray Kevin Mitnick in any sense of the word, my actions, nor my thoughts, feelings,
[12:01.860 --> 12:04.000]  or any words that I utter.
[12:05.680 --> 12:14.280]  And what ended up happening, from what I understand, is they took these interviews without my permission, and they've actually included it on the DVD that's for sale.
[12:14.700 --> 12:15.180]  Unbelievable.
[12:15.480 --> 12:17.960]  Which, I don't know what type of legal action I may have.
[12:18.140 --> 12:19.300]  Right now I'm...
[12:19.300 --> 12:20.600]  I'm pouring rain at her.
[12:21.680 --> 12:34.460]  Right now I'm dealing with other aspects of my life, and then I'm going to try to find out what, if any, action I can take, because I had a gentleman who was my media publicist in New York at the time.
[12:34.640 --> 12:48.700]  He's the one that negotiated the deal between me and these people in France, and he specifically had advised me that it was a one-time usage-type thing to promote the film that was going to be shown in regular movie theaters.
[12:49.200 --> 12:58.540]  And I did it because I was kind of like desperate to make some money since the government at that time, if you recall, Eric, was restricting me from even writing or speaking about computer technology.
[12:58.740 --> 13:03.520]  So any type of work that was offered to me, you know, I basically had no...
[13:03.520 --> 13:04.480]  you know, I had to take it.
[13:04.640 --> 13:04.860]  Mm-hmm.
[13:06.200 --> 13:13.160]  Well, hopefully we'll prevent that from happening here in this country where they misuse your image to sell their film.
[13:14.600 --> 13:17.860]  And we'll keep you updated if we learn anything else.
[13:17.860 --> 13:19.040]  Yeah, you know about...
[13:19.040 --> 13:21.440]  you know Merrimack is being sued by Jonathan Littman, right?
[13:21.820 --> 13:22.940]  Yeah, no, I knew about that.
[13:23.000 --> 13:27.520]  That started a little while ago and all kinds of lawsuits being flung about.
[13:28.160 --> 13:30.060]  But we'll try to keep this out of the courts.
[13:30.180 --> 13:32.340]  Hopefully they'll be reasonable this time.
[13:32.440 --> 13:33.740]  Kevin, thanks so much for stopping in.
[13:34.080 --> 13:34.620]  Thank you.
[13:34.680 --> 13:42.700]  And what's interesting, Eric, is I heard that John Markoff and Sittomo Shimomura might be deposed by Jonathan Littman's lawyers in the suit.
[13:42.700 --> 13:45.800]  So it might be interesting if those documents ever become public.
[13:45.860 --> 13:46.320]  Oh, absolutely.
[13:46.320 --> 13:49.280]  Well, they would be public documents and maybe it'll be taped.
[13:49.440 --> 13:50.260]  That would be really nice, too.
[13:51.300 --> 13:52.080]  So, all right.
[13:52.140 --> 13:54.840]  Well, best of luck to you with your new place and give your best to your father, too.
[13:55.280 --> 13:56.000]  Give my best to your father.
[13:56.340 --> 14:00.480]  Well, and I hope everybody's doing good and I hope
[14:03.700 --> 14:09.860]  that things go for the better for all of us and that the corporations don't take all our rights away.
[14:10.240 --> 14:10.960]  Yeah, yeah.
[14:11.100 --> 14:11.940]  Well, we're fighting here.
[14:12.080 --> 14:14.620]  We're fighting in all different ways, all different fronts.
[14:14.900 --> 14:15.640]  Well, that's good.
[14:15.840 --> 14:16.300]  Thanks again.
[14:16.820 --> 14:17.360]  Take care, Kevin.
[14:17.480 --> 14:17.520]  Take care.
[14:17.640 --> 14:17.880]  Bye-bye.
[14:18.580 --> 14:26.320]  Kevin Mitnick here on WBAI where we'll be back in a couple of minutes with other people as well.
[14:26.400 --> 14:28.600]  In fact, we'll be taking some phone calls for about...
[14:28.600 --> 14:32.720]  I think we can probably squeeze in about 10 minutes worth of phone calls before we have to go to our next segment.
[14:32.960 --> 14:34.260]  What I'd like to do...
[14:35.160 --> 14:37.740]  I'd like for people to be calling in and pledging to the radio station.
[14:37.880 --> 14:38.560]  We have...
[14:38.560 --> 14:41.800]  Okay, now we have three packages and that's it.
[14:41.920 --> 14:43.600]  That's it for the packages as far as...
[14:43.600 --> 14:44.680]  as far as...
[14:44.680 --> 14:45.400]  what we're...
[14:45.400 --> 14:46.740]  what we'll be sending out as premiums.
[14:46.900 --> 14:48.120]  We have the...
[14:48.120 --> 14:58.860]  the H2K videos which basically are 17 video cassettes over 30 hours of material from the H2K conference which took place last July here in New York.
[14:59.060 --> 15:05.840]  All kinds of different opinions, conversations, analysis, things like that that took place.
[15:06.660 --> 15:08.480]  That's for a pledge of $125.
[15:09.500 --> 15:16.640]  For a pledge of $200 you get every single back issue of 2600 magazine, the Hacker Quarterly which has been covering the hacker scene since 1984.
[15:17.660 --> 15:20.520]  And that's an awful lot of reading, an awful lot of history, a lot of perspective.
[15:20.740 --> 15:32.460]  If you ever want to find out everything that you want to know about the hacker community and about how things have progressed or deteriorated in society over the last 17 years, that's a very good deal.
[15:32.600 --> 15:34.400]  A lot cheaper than you would find anywhere else too.
[15:34.780 --> 15:40.140]  212-209-2950 is the number to call to pledge for those two items, those two packages.
[15:40.600 --> 15:59.800]  We also have a third item or a third package for 2600 material and that's what we call the 2600 wardrobe where basically you have everything you need, two t-shirts and a hat that we put out, the 2600 cap and the two 2600 t-shirts, one of which has an encryption algorithm.
[15:59.960 --> 16:01.240]  I believe it's the IDEA.
[16:01.860 --> 16:02.520]  IDEA, yeah.
[16:04.320 --> 16:06.100]  It's not anything else.
[16:06.160 --> 16:08.720]  It might be misrepresented as something else in other places but that's what it is.
[16:08.780 --> 16:09.700]  That's what it is for sure.
[16:09.800 --> 16:14.520]  So if you're looking to do encryption and you want the shirt for that purpose, at least you know what you're getting into.
[16:14.860 --> 16:21.340]  Then there's the blue box shirt with the blue box schematic and all kinds of newspaper headlines on the back and the all-purpose 2600 cap.
[16:21.460 --> 16:24.720]  That's for a pledge at $75, 212-209-2950.
[16:25.140 --> 16:26.660]  We have no calls on the line.
[16:26.780 --> 16:30.060]  We'd like to get those lines lit up as much as possible.
[16:30.880 --> 16:36.000]  Now, as far as phone calls that we'll be taking on the regular listener line, 209-2900.
[16:36.000 --> 16:38.000]  We'll be doing that for about 10 minutes or so.
[16:38.140 --> 16:48.860]  I ask that people keep comments short and basically what I'd like to hear from our listeners is why you should or should not pledge to the radio station.
[16:49.160 --> 16:54.800]  I'd like to hear from our listeners on that subject because I don't think anybody can speak to it better than the listeners.
[16:55.620 --> 16:56.260]  All right.
[16:56.440 --> 16:58.240]  Now, there are a couple of ground rules.
[16:58.240 --> 17:00.520]  We don't want any personal attacks.
[17:00.680 --> 17:03.440]  We don't want to talk about internal station business, things like that.
[17:03.800 --> 17:11.320]  We want to know why you will pledge or why you will not pledge and how you want to convey that to other listeners.
[17:11.560 --> 17:13.960]  So the number to call is 212-209-2900.
[17:14.140 --> 17:15.680]  Again, keep it very short.
[17:15.680 --> 17:20.060]  We'll only be doing this for about 10 minutes because we have so much else we have to take care of tonight.
[17:20.580 --> 17:22.860]  And if you want to pledge right now, please call us.
[17:22.960 --> 17:25.800]  212-209-2950 is the pledge line.
[17:25.900 --> 17:27.520]  We have two calls on the pledge line right now.
[17:27.720 --> 17:33.020]  We'd like to light that up and get all kinds of people together to support the radio station.
[17:33.780 --> 17:35.640]  We'll be back in just a moment.
[18:52.000 --> 18:56.140]  212-209-2950
[18:59.720 --> 19:03.040]  You're listening to Off the Hook, a special expanded edition on this Tuesday night.
[19:03.040 --> 19:07.240]  While we're raising funds, we have four calls on the pledge line, 212-209-2950.
[19:07.280 --> 19:10.760]  We want to thank those people for calling in and showing their support to the radio station.
[19:10.820 --> 19:12.640]  We're going to take some listener phone calls in just a moment.
[19:13.080 --> 19:14.380]  A couple of announcements first.
[19:14.720 --> 19:18.040]  We touched upon the subject of our documentary Freedom Downton.
[19:18.080 --> 19:21.640]  I'm happy to say it's finished and it's actually been duplicated.
[19:21.800 --> 19:25.280]  We're submitting it to film festivals and all kinds of happy things like that.
[19:27.260 --> 19:29.800]  particular festival that we should be submitting this thing to.
[19:30.000 --> 19:31.920]  First, make sure that we haven't already missed a deadline.
[19:32.580 --> 19:33.560]  Send us email.
[19:33.940 --> 19:36.880]  You can send it to me directly, emmanuel at 2600.com.
[19:37.000 --> 19:38.140]  That's E-M-M-A-N-U-E-L.
[19:38.620 --> 19:39.880]  And we'll look into that.
[19:40.000 --> 19:44.420]  If you have email for the Off the Hook folks, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[19:44.860 --> 19:50.640]  And for those of you who want to listen to the radio station around the clock, we have a link up.
[19:50.820 --> 19:58.420]  Right now it's a temporary link and soon it will be a permanent link on the main page www.2600.com is the easiest way to get there right now.
[19:58.600 --> 20:05.140]  And we'll be putting that link on all different other sites as well so that you never had a touch no matter where you are.
[20:05.600 --> 20:12.240]  There's been all kinds of wild speculation as to what happened to the original link that people would listen to.
[20:12.580 --> 20:15.300]  Well, there was no foul play, at least no foul play from this end.
[20:16.640 --> 20:19.080]  The site just went and left.
[20:19.320 --> 20:20.060]  It happens sometimes.
[20:20.820 --> 20:22.680]  These .coms are always disappearing.
[20:23.200 --> 20:24.020]  Up and closed.
[20:24.140 --> 20:25.040]  Plunging into the void.
[20:26.080 --> 20:28.460]  Unfortunately, the one that was hosting our site did that.
[20:29.040 --> 20:33.060]  And so we only have the backup stream up right now.
[20:33.160 --> 20:36.260]  So you can get to that around the clock at www.2600.com.
[20:36.460 --> 20:37.960]  Soon it will be available every place.
[20:38.520 --> 20:41.280]  And we want the signal to get out to as many people as possible.
[20:41.420 --> 20:42.940]  We have six calls on the line.
[20:43.040 --> 20:44.700]  212-209-2950.
[20:45.100 --> 20:46.960]  Please show your support for the radio station.
[20:47.640 --> 20:56.840]  I know there's all kinds of discussions that have been going on over the past weeks and months, years even, as to the future of this place, as to how this place should be run.
[20:57.060 --> 20:59.040]  And, you know, we want you to be part of that process.
[20:59.240 --> 21:05.260]  We want to continue the discussions, the conversations, the arguments, because that's all part of the process.
[21:05.680 --> 21:08.380]  It stops working when people don't contribute.
[21:08.580 --> 21:15.240]  Whether they stop contributing with their words, with their funds, with their ears, by listening.
[21:15.820 --> 21:16.720]  We need all of that.
[21:16.940 --> 21:17.480]  We need you people.
[21:17.720 --> 21:19.120]  212-209-2950.
[21:19.280 --> 21:20.280]  What are some of the people we have here?
[21:20.320 --> 21:21.260]  We have a lot of people to thank.
[21:21.500 --> 21:23.580]  We want to thank Craig Matthews from Tampa.
[21:24.380 --> 21:25.040]  Tampa, Florida.
[21:25.220 --> 21:25.640]  Tampa, Florida.
[21:25.820 --> 21:27.060]  Actually, you're not supposed to read the last name.
[21:27.280 --> 21:27.640]  Oh, sorry.
[21:27.680 --> 21:28.320]  Let's read the first name.
[21:28.600 --> 21:30.560]  Shea from New Jersey, Gillette, New Jersey.
[21:31.740 --> 21:33.240]  Paul from Ramsey, New Jersey.
[21:34.360 --> 21:35.300]  V-Roy from Brooklyn.
[21:37.820 --> 21:39.680]  And Alan from New York, Manhattan.
[21:40.200 --> 21:40.400]  Okay.
[21:40.780 --> 21:41.780]  We have more, don't we?
[21:41.920 --> 21:43.660]  Yeah, we have a lot of people who don't want their names read.
[21:43.700 --> 21:44.020]  Okay.
[21:44.880 --> 21:47.500]  Probably learned something from the first clip you played.
[21:47.800 --> 21:48.280]  That's right.
[21:48.440 --> 21:48.780]  That's right.
[21:48.960 --> 21:52.000]  If you give out your name, everybody knows it, and there's a file started on you.
[21:52.820 --> 21:53.080]  All right.
[21:53.280 --> 21:56.600]  Well, 212-209-2900, we're going to take some phone calls.
[21:56.640 --> 21:57.440]  Now, here's what we're going to do.
[21:58.240 --> 22:03.700]  We just want to hear in your own words why you're supporting the station or why you're not supporting the station.
[22:03.760 --> 22:05.760]  But I ask that people not give speeches.
[22:06.060 --> 22:09.960]  We're going to limit the calls to a minute each only because we don't have very much time.
[22:10.120 --> 22:11.120]  Now, I have a timer here.
[22:11.240 --> 22:12.820]  I have an electronic timer that works.
[22:13.000 --> 22:16.920]  I'm going to have it go to a minute, and at the end of the minute, the bell goes off.
[22:17.220 --> 22:17.700]  All right?
[22:17.840 --> 22:19.260]  When the bell goes off, your time is up.
[22:19.380 --> 22:20.060]  It's just like in the Senate.
[22:20.300 --> 22:20.980]  Where'd you find the bell?
[22:21.120 --> 22:21.440]  I don't know.
[22:21.520 --> 22:22.120]  It was just sitting here.
[22:22.540 --> 22:23.300]  It was perfect.
[22:23.480 --> 22:23.980]  That's pretty cool.
[22:23.980 --> 22:24.860]  It's a great bell, isn't it?
[22:25.360 --> 22:26.140]  It's like a hotel.
[22:26.280 --> 22:27.360]  Suddenly have a bell, yes.
[22:27.560 --> 22:28.560]  It's like faulty towers.
[22:29.540 --> 22:30.240]  Yeah, all right.
[22:32.080 --> 22:35.540]  So, those people that have doubts, well, we want to hear from you as well.
[22:36.120 --> 22:37.240]  Obviously, we want to hear from everybody.
[22:37.620 --> 22:39.620]  Let's go to the phones.
[22:41.940 --> 22:42.640]  And good evening.
[22:42.640 --> 22:43.200]  You're on.
[22:43.660 --> 22:44.240]  Yes, hello.
[22:44.640 --> 22:49.500]  Well, I will not be contributing to the station because I feel that I've been betrayed by the internal politics.
[22:49.980 --> 22:56.400]  As for tonight, on Channel 13, you can check out a documentary on Frontline about hackers.
[22:56.600 --> 22:57.660]  So, that's something to check out.
[22:57.800 --> 22:58.780]  Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that.
[22:58.840 --> 23:01.060]  In fact, on Frontline, 9 o'clock, I believe?
[23:01.240 --> 23:01.500]  Oh, 10.
[23:01.740 --> 23:02.440]  It's at 10 o'clock.
[23:02.560 --> 23:02.720]  Okay.
[23:03.540 --> 23:05.120]  Whoops, I set my VCR for the wrong time.
[23:05.780 --> 23:07.120]  Okay, 10 o'clock.
[23:07.400 --> 23:09.860]  And I think that features people from The Cult of the Dead Cow.
[23:10.760 --> 23:13.700]  It's going to rebroadcast on the 18th of February at 1 a.m.
[23:14.000 --> 23:14.500]  Oh, okay.
[23:14.600 --> 23:15.480]  We did your research.
[23:15.620 --> 23:18.000]  All right, thanks for that call and thanks for your opinion.
[23:18.940 --> 23:19.480]  Good evening.
[23:19.600 --> 23:19.960]  You're on the air.
[23:21.500 --> 23:22.080]  Speak up.
[23:22.520 --> 23:22.900]  Okay.
[23:23.260 --> 23:25.060]  Well, I guess that's a comment of a sort, too.
[23:25.380 --> 23:25.680]  Good evening.
[23:25.780 --> 23:26.260]  You're on the air.
[23:26.880 --> 23:27.220]  Hello.
[23:27.620 --> 23:28.040]  Go ahead.
[23:28.600 --> 23:29.100]  Yeah, hi.
[23:29.220 --> 23:33.420]  Actually, I have contributed to BAI in the past, and I'm not this time.
[23:34.060 --> 23:44.520]  The reason is that I've heard some people say you should be giving money to save the station because what will be left, even though we've gone through all these changes.
[23:44.820 --> 23:47.780]  What I say is, what is there to save?
[23:48.500 --> 23:58.740]  I'm not sure at this moment that by giving support to what has gone on financially, that there is going to be anything left.
[23:58.880 --> 24:03.680]  I mean, you know, the biggest horror to me was the act of censorship.
[24:04.120 --> 24:07.420]  And I've seen you walking that line.
[24:07.660 --> 24:08.800]  We're talking now.
[24:08.940 --> 24:14.700]  We still have a radio station now, but I think the only way the station is going to continue to exist is if the station is supported.
[24:15.600 --> 24:18.440]  But the problem is, what will it exist as?
[24:18.560 --> 24:19.000]  I don't know.
[24:19.160 --> 24:27.940]  That's something we have to fight for, but I can tell you, if nothing comes in, if everybody thought the same way and nobody contributed anything, it would be a moot point because there wouldn't be a station.
[24:28.300 --> 24:28.860]  Time's up.
[24:29.900 --> 24:30.580]  All right, thanks.
[24:30.960 --> 24:31.840]  You know, I don't like doing that.
[24:32.840 --> 24:36.900]  I mean, you know, you just get into a conversation, but the thing is, we have like 20 calls here that we have to get to.
[24:37.020 --> 24:37.340]  Yeah, we've got to roll through them.
[24:38.080 --> 24:38.820]  All right, good evening.
[24:38.880 --> 24:39.260]  You're on the air.
[24:39.520 --> 24:40.540]  Boy, that's amazing.
[24:41.000 --> 24:47.300]  Manuel, if there's anybody who could get me to contribute right now, it would be you, and I am a former contributor.
[24:47.980 --> 24:48.600]  Well, you know what?
[24:48.600 --> 24:49.900]  I have an idea.
[24:50.080 --> 24:52.180]  I have an idea that in about...
[24:52.180 --> 25:01.700]  I already have gone through the whole thing, but I tell you, I really think you're about me to think, you know, he's right, but not this time.
[25:01.880 --> 25:02.120]  Okay.
[25:02.500 --> 25:02.800]  Okay?
[25:03.040 --> 25:03.300]  All right.
[25:03.420 --> 25:03.720]  All right.
[25:03.840 --> 25:04.840]  You're going to like his idea.
[25:04.980 --> 25:05.440]  Yeah, you know what?
[25:05.440 --> 25:07.800]  I think maybe in about...
[25:07.800 --> 25:08.960]  We've got 30 minutes left.
[25:09.060 --> 25:12.240]  Seven minutes, I might convince you otherwise, because I have an idea.
[25:12.240 --> 25:15.760]  I have an idea how to get those people that are on the fence.
[25:16.020 --> 25:19.780]  Even people that are in the other yard, you know, walking in the other direction.
[25:19.880 --> 25:21.460]  I think I have a way to get them to come back over.
[25:21.660 --> 25:21.940]  Okay.
[25:22.120 --> 25:22.740]  I have an idea.
[25:23.560 --> 25:24.620]  I'm looking forward to this.
[25:24.680 --> 25:24.840]  Yeah.
[25:25.060 --> 25:26.760]  I am too, in some ways.
[25:26.800 --> 25:27.740]  In other ways, I'm not.
[25:28.420 --> 25:31.980]  Because every good idea has a bit of pain attached to it, but we'll see.
[25:32.480 --> 25:32.780]  Good evening.
[25:32.900 --> 25:33.280]  You're on the air.
[25:34.640 --> 25:35.180]  Speak up.
[25:35.380 --> 25:36.000]  Go ahead.
[25:36.320 --> 25:37.400]  Yeah, well, I'm...
[25:37.400 --> 25:45.000]  I will not be contributing to the station because of the continuing presence of the interim manager.
[25:46.180 --> 25:50.820]  And frankly, I am glad to learn that Mr. Riley is no longer at the station.
[25:51.020 --> 25:52.820]  Well, let's keep personalities out of this.
[25:52.900 --> 25:55.920]  We're trying to say general here, so we don't want to do any kind of...
[25:55.920 --> 25:57.400]  I understand your points.
[25:57.740 --> 26:00.720]  But we want to just keep it to the issue of the station in general.
[26:01.020 --> 26:01.420]  Okay?
[26:01.700 --> 26:03.200]  Well, that is the station in general.
[26:03.400 --> 26:14.900]  And I think I've made the point, and I think also that this individual who is no longer at the station was understood to be rather unstable.
[26:15.400 --> 26:15.780]  Well, okay.
[26:15.960 --> 26:19.480]  I think we're delving into character assassination here, and we're not going to...
[26:19.480 --> 26:20.240]  That's a bell ring, right?
[26:20.240 --> 26:22.800]  We're not going to let people be attacked...
[26:22.800 --> 26:26.260]  Well, if you want to attack a producer, you can attack me, all right?
[26:26.340 --> 26:26.700]  And Isaac.
[26:26.820 --> 26:27.380]  I'll permit that.
[26:27.700 --> 26:33.660]  You can attack Isaac anytime you want, but we're not going to sit back and just let people...
[26:34.100 --> 26:38.500]  Regardless, regardless of how we might personally feel, this is not about individuals.
[26:38.500 --> 26:39.500]  This is about a collective.
[26:39.680 --> 26:41.440]  This is about people as a group.
[26:41.440 --> 26:42.900]  This is about the radio station as a whole.
[26:43.100 --> 26:44.460]  So address it from that.
[26:44.700 --> 26:49.740]  I don't mean to cut people off when they do this, but that is the topic that we have to address, all right?
[26:50.700 --> 26:52.160]  And we have about...
[26:52.160 --> 26:55.240]  I guess we can do this for about another seven minutes or so before we have to move on.
[26:55.460 --> 26:56.240]  So many things.
[26:56.380 --> 26:57.460]  Two hours goes by so fast.
[26:57.780 --> 26:58.020]  Good evening.
[26:58.100 --> 26:58.540]  You're on the air.
[26:58.980 --> 26:59.380]  Whoops.
[26:59.660 --> 27:00.680]  Sorry, I didn't mean to do that then.
[27:00.800 --> 27:01.040]  Go ahead.
[27:01.180 --> 27:09.760]  I am not contributing to the station because I think that it's a slippery slope and free speech is being more and more under attack by the Pacifica Foundation.
[27:10.320 --> 27:29.700]  And I think your listeners should know about the latest one that Epstein, Becker, and Green, Pacifica's law firm, sent a letter to the owner of WBAI.net, which is one of our free speech websites talking about the situation at Pacifica and threatened that she has to give up that domain name.
[27:30.080 --> 27:32.040]  It's kind of ironic for this particular program.
[27:32.180 --> 27:35.300]  I had heard about that and we've been talking about that for years.
[27:35.800 --> 27:36.680]  He's not going to do it.
[27:36.720 --> 27:37.260]  He's going to fight.
[27:37.660 --> 27:40.260]  This is another thing to support.
[27:40.480 --> 27:40.920]  All right.
[27:40.920 --> 27:50.060]  But I feel if we contribute to the station now, we're in a way, we're acquiescing and saying, we don't like it, but we're going along with it.
[27:50.340 --> 27:54.500]  That we can't just vote with our mouth, we have to vote with our pocketbooks.
[27:54.980 --> 27:55.320]  All right.
[27:55.380 --> 27:56.200]  Well, that's an opinion.
[27:56.480 --> 27:56.880]  Thanks.
[27:57.160 --> 27:57.600]  Thank you.
[27:58.760 --> 28:00.100]  Can't say I agree with the opinion.
[28:00.320 --> 28:06.000]  I don't like to look at the alternative to not helping the station continue to be here.
[28:06.200 --> 28:08.380]  I guess it's like sort of like a hunger strike or something.
[28:08.640 --> 28:11.680]  If it doesn't work, it's really, really bad for you.
[28:13.460 --> 28:14.920]  But yeah, that is interesting.
[28:15.140 --> 28:17.900]  I heard about that, the WBI.net site being threatening.
[28:18.080 --> 28:22.000]  This is something that large corporations tend to do, to us especially.
[28:22.420 --> 28:29.000]  They've always come after us, Verizon and all the other ones that have come after us in years past.
[28:29.000 --> 28:30.680]  It's just kind of weird to see it happening here.
[28:31.360 --> 28:38.180]  And I think I had heard, I have not verified this, but I heard that another Pacifica site was also threatened to say Pacifica.net.
[28:38.360 --> 28:39.240]  What am I looking at here?
[28:39.300 --> 28:40.900]  That's 165 listeners we got online.
[28:41.260 --> 28:42.080]  165 listeners online.
[28:42.240 --> 28:42.400]  Okay.
[28:42.680 --> 28:43.660]  Well, that's good to know.
[28:43.840 --> 28:44.360]  That's good to know.
[28:44.540 --> 28:47.100]  Again, the pledge line 212-209-2950.
[28:47.360 --> 28:51.680]  If you've made up your mind, you're going to pledge to the radio station, please give us a call now because we need your support.
[28:51.820 --> 28:55.700]  We have $3,850 so far for this show.
[28:56.460 --> 28:58.720]  We'd like to get a lot more than that too.
[28:59.000 --> 28:59.980]  Keep the station going.
[29:00.260 --> 29:02.700]  So we can continue to have conversations like this.
[29:02.800 --> 29:04.520]  Please, remember, we're still here.
[29:05.000 --> 29:05.380]  All right?
[29:05.480 --> 29:08.800]  That's the reason why you should contribute because we're still here.
[29:09.000 --> 29:10.480]  You're not going to find this anywhere else.
[29:10.620 --> 29:11.740]  I mean, you tune up to...
[29:11.740 --> 29:17.120]  All right, after the show's over, you tune up to a couple of channels and you try to listen for a couple of guys talking about computer hacking.
[29:17.180 --> 29:17.760]  Tune up now if you want.
[29:17.840 --> 29:18.080]  Go ahead.
[29:18.120 --> 29:18.520]  They'll be back.
[29:18.740 --> 29:19.280]  Go ahead.
[29:19.500 --> 29:20.660]  Tune to another station now.
[29:20.780 --> 29:21.940]  You won't be able to tolerate it.
[29:21.980 --> 29:23.160]  You'll want to tear your own head off.
[29:23.480 --> 29:24.240]  It's that bad.
[29:29.000 --> 29:33.600]  a radio station if it was put up for market.
[29:33.760 --> 29:36.960]  Obviously, that's a concern that everybody is afraid of.
[29:37.120 --> 29:40.980]  And that's something that a lot of people are very, very worried about.
[29:41.220 --> 29:46.340]  But, you know, you don't express your worry by walking away, by saying whatever.
[29:46.680 --> 29:49.560]  You know, you guys can just fend for yourselves.
[29:49.700 --> 29:52.440]  That's a sure way to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[29:53.020 --> 29:53.660]  You know?
[29:53.860 --> 29:55.080]  That's not a threat.
[29:55.080 --> 29:57.660]  That's just, unfortunately, the way things work.
[29:57.740 --> 30:02.400]  If a listener supported station isn't supported by the listeners, what do you think is going to happen to it?
[30:03.180 --> 30:05.940]  We want to continue dialogue like this as long as we're able to.
[30:06.060 --> 30:09.980]  We want to continue to have a place for our listeners to talk about issues that are important for them.
[30:10.380 --> 30:12.680]  And that's what this place is about.
[30:12.740 --> 30:17.000]  And that's what it always will be about as long as we have listeners who demand it.
[30:17.860 --> 30:18.040]  All right.
[30:18.140 --> 30:18.720]  Let's take another phone call.
[30:18.800 --> 30:19.060]  Good evening.
[30:19.140 --> 30:19.540]  You're on the air.
[30:20.540 --> 30:20.700]  Yes.
[30:20.800 --> 30:21.500]  Good evening, all.
[30:22.500 --> 30:23.980]  One, I don't understand...
[30:23.980 --> 30:28.500]  Let me just stop right there and say I want to thank you for all the support you've shown over the years.
[30:28.500 --> 30:29.820]  I've never gotten a chance to do that, Monroe.
[30:30.080 --> 30:31.140]  For 41 years, I've subscribed.
[30:31.740 --> 30:34.140]  You're definitely what the station is all about.
[30:34.280 --> 30:35.760]  But can you keep it to a minute?
[30:36.160 --> 30:37.140]  Well, I'm going to do it.
[30:37.140 --> 30:37.480]  All right.
[30:38.220 --> 30:39.660]  I'm resetting the clock right now.
[30:39.800 --> 30:40.160]  Go.
[30:40.320 --> 30:48.140]  One, I just want to explain one thing that I don't understand how we can download because I might get music off BAI, but they can't do it off Napster.
[30:48.680 --> 30:50.220]  Now, you can answer that later.
[30:50.460 --> 31:03.440]  Now, the thing is, there's going to be a meeting on Thursday of the Concerned Friends of WBAI, and we're concerned to gather the money and use it as a force to change the Pacifica Foundation.
[31:03.580 --> 31:05.620]  In other words, we're ready to turn the money over.
[31:05.620 --> 31:07.500]  I think I can say it for the group.
[31:07.680 --> 31:27.520]  We're ready to turn the money right back to the station, but we want to have it as a fulcrum, a talk, you know, something to work to change matters, get a democratic government of the Pacifica Foundation, get a democratic, you know, vote in people.
[31:27.780 --> 31:29.560]  who are radio listeners.
[31:29.860 --> 31:37.920]  I mean, we don't know anything about these people except that they want a union bus, that they want to sell the station and stuff like that.
[31:38.040 --> 31:41.280]  And we love the station, we believe in it, and so on.
[31:41.380 --> 31:41.660]  Okay.
[31:41.840 --> 31:42.060]  Okay.
[31:42.300 --> 31:42.700]  Thanks.
[31:43.020 --> 31:43.940]  Wow, it actually worked.
[31:44.480 --> 31:48.520]  I expected him to continue, but he actually, I got Monroe down to a minute.
[31:48.860 --> 31:49.080]  Hmm.
[31:49.620 --> 31:51.280]  All right, I should get some kind of an award for that.
[31:51.360 --> 31:53.420]  But no, I really, I admire Monroe in his spirit.
[31:53.680 --> 31:57.200]  He's one of the first people ever called me when I went on the air back in the late 80s.
[31:58.020 --> 32:00.220]  And he's been a supporter of the station from the beginning.
[32:00.400 --> 32:02.780]  And it's people like Monroe that we cannot forget.
[32:02.780 --> 32:04.940]  We cannot just dismiss them at all.
[32:05.000 --> 32:08.060]  And I don't think most of the people here will ever do that.
[32:08.820 --> 32:12.040]  There's a lot of talk, obviously, about the many different struggles going on.
[32:12.580 --> 32:14.300]  And I know people have doubts.
[32:14.580 --> 32:16.840]  I know people have all kinds of concerns.
[32:17.880 --> 32:25.860]  They want to support the fight to reclaim Pacifica and mold it into what they want it to be.
[32:25.980 --> 32:27.640]  But they also want to support the radio station.
[32:27.800 --> 32:28.880]  How do they do both?
[32:29.500 --> 32:31.520]  You know, that's the tough question.
[32:31.800 --> 32:33.820]  All right, let's take a couple more phone calls real quick now.
[32:33.920 --> 32:34.580]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[32:35.480 --> 32:36.140]  Good morning, gentlemen.
[32:36.780 --> 32:37.080]  Morning?
[32:37.320 --> 32:38.100]  Where are you coming from?
[32:39.040 --> 32:39.860]  Right from New York.
[32:40.060 --> 32:40.320]  Okay.
[32:41.580 --> 32:44.460]  Very quickly, I'm going to support the radio station.
[32:44.640 --> 32:45.420]  I'm going to send them a check.
[32:45.420 --> 32:51.660]  I'm also going to send a check to the people who are trying to remove the Pacifica board right now.
[32:53.740 --> 33:05.660]  I accept your argument that the radio station needs to survive in order to go on and have the excellent programs like yourselves and the late-night programs that I treasure.
[33:07.680 --> 33:26.540]  But that said, the actions of the head of the Pacifica board and the person that they appointed to be general manager and the comments that I've heard both on the air and what people are not allowed to say at the station.
[33:27.700 --> 33:35.920]  I'm sending in a letter stating that this money is not to be construed as support in any way, shape, or form for that kind of behavior.
[33:38.620 --> 33:39.740]  And no one...
[33:40.300 --> 33:40.620]  Okay.
[33:40.900 --> 33:41.520]  Finish your sentence.
[33:42.500 --> 33:44.860]  No one should be allowed to do that, not with my money.
[33:45.080 --> 33:45.360]  Okay.
[33:45.620 --> 33:45.900]  Thanks.
[33:46.020 --> 33:46.580]  Thanks for your call.
[33:46.700 --> 33:46.840]  Bye.
[33:47.380 --> 33:48.960]  You know, this bell is just too obnoxious.
[33:49.120 --> 33:50.040]  No, I'm hating this bell.
[33:50.180 --> 33:51.300]  I feel like a teacher.
[33:51.480 --> 33:52.120]  No, get this thing away.
[33:53.300 --> 33:54.120]  I'm sorry, folks.
[33:54.400 --> 33:55.420]  I don't like doing that.
[33:56.540 --> 33:57.000]  I'm sorry.
[33:57.080 --> 33:58.320]  I'm just not good with authority.
[33:58.520 --> 33:59.760]  I'm not good dealing with authority.
[33:59.760 --> 34:00.820]  I'm not good being authority.
[34:00.880 --> 34:01.860]  I just can't deal with it.
[34:01.920 --> 34:02.760]  I don't think it's authority.
[34:02.900 --> 34:07.360]  I think it's simply I hate bells.
[34:07.580 --> 34:07.960]  All right.
[34:08.540 --> 34:09.520]  Let's take one more phone call.
[34:09.960 --> 34:10.440]  Good evening.
[34:10.540 --> 34:10.860]  You're on the air.
[34:11.680 --> 34:13.500]  Maybe we could try to self-limit to a minute.
[34:13.740 --> 34:14.020]  Maybe.
[34:14.220 --> 34:14.460]  Go ahead.
[34:15.560 --> 34:24.200]  I'd just like to say that because Isaac decided to come to IRC tonight and show his love for us, I've donated $30.
[34:24.740 --> 34:25.260]  All right.
[34:25.260 --> 34:25.680]  All right.
[34:25.800 --> 34:26.120]  Thank you.
[34:26.280 --> 34:27.380]  Thanks so much.
[34:27.900 --> 34:28.340]  All right.
[34:28.640 --> 34:28.820]  Goodbye.
[34:28.920 --> 34:29.100]  All right.
[34:29.120 --> 34:31.220]  That was a quick call, so I guess we can fit in one more.
[34:31.260 --> 34:32.200]  You're on IRC now?
[34:32.400 --> 34:34.540]  Well, it's what this computer thing is in front of me.
[34:35.760 --> 34:36.980]  I'm watching the mail.
[34:36.980 --> 34:37.960]  I'm doing a bunch of things.
[34:38.200 --> 34:39.260]  You're also on the radio.
[34:39.580 --> 34:40.000]  I know that.
[34:40.580 --> 34:40.900]  All right.
[34:42.540 --> 34:43.160]  Good evening.
[34:43.300 --> 34:43.700]  You're on the air.
[34:43.980 --> 34:44.160]  Yes.
[34:44.220 --> 34:57.220]  To all the people who are not pledging, think of all the years that you should have pledged that you didn't and all the time that you wish you would pledge more when you could have afforded it.
[34:57.340 --> 35:05.640]  So think of it as back pay, that you're paying for past services that's just an idea.
[35:06.420 --> 35:06.560]  All right.
[35:06.800 --> 35:07.860]  Thanks for the call.
[35:08.080 --> 35:10.140]  And thanks everybody who called in.
[35:10.240 --> 35:15.280]  Thanks for all the people that expressed their opinions one way or another because that's what it's all about.
[35:15.620 --> 35:15.860]  All right.
[35:15.940 --> 35:19.340]  We're up to 4750, practically 5,000, which is great.
[35:19.600 --> 35:20.520]  We want to continue going.
[35:20.720 --> 35:24.900]  We have more names to thank, so we'll be sorting those out and reading them over the air.
[35:25.000 --> 35:27.060]  Did we get to the second half of the first stack?
[35:27.240 --> 35:28.020]  I don't think we ever did.
[35:28.220 --> 35:30.340]  Well, those were the people who didn't want to get rid.
[35:30.440 --> 35:30.600]  Okay.
[35:31.760 --> 35:34.140]  We got a lot of people who just didn't want to be mentioned.
[35:34.360 --> 35:34.640]  Excellent.
[35:34.880 --> 35:38.300]  Thanks so much for your help down there in the tally room and thanks to all our volunteers.
[35:39.760 --> 35:53.920]  Now, over the last, I don't know how long, how long it's been going on, it just seems like it's been going on forever where there's been crisis and turmoil and, yeah, it comes down to the inevitable question as to what is it that I'm going to support.
[35:54.160 --> 35:55.940]  You know, I want Pacifica to improve.
[35:55.940 --> 36:00.720]  I want, you know, these legal threats to websites not to go out.
[36:00.720 --> 36:19.020]  I want the station not to, you know, or the board, rather, not to be comprised of corporate-type people and, you know, I want to be more democratically elected and all kinds of things like that, you know, that concern people and obviously are legitimate concerns.
[36:20.160 --> 36:22.180]  And then you have the other side of that.
[36:22.300 --> 36:27.240]  You have the other side which says the station cannot survive without listener support.
[36:27.560 --> 36:29.820]  How do you reconcile these two things?
[36:30.480 --> 36:32.480]  You know, it's difficult, I know.
[36:32.640 --> 36:37.060]  I know it's very difficult and something that has been racking my brain for a while too.
[36:37.280 --> 36:40.760]  And I'm sure it's racking the brain of a lot of producers here.
[36:41.200 --> 36:48.620]  You may have heard all kinds of conflict and controversy and name-calling and finger-pointing and all kinds of things like that.
[36:48.640 --> 36:51.700]  Let me tell you, 99% of that is total nonsense.
[36:52.020 --> 36:52.860]  It's garbage.
[36:52.860 --> 36:54.160]  It's a waste of time.
[36:54.380 --> 36:59.540]  You know, there's important issues and then there's just all the fluff that goes around it.
[36:59.600 --> 37:09.240]  And I think a lot of people wind up just walking away from the fight because they're just so upset with all the nonsense that goes along with it.
[37:09.520 --> 37:12.940]  You know, all the infighting, finger-pointing and all that kind of crap.
[37:14.200 --> 37:17.180]  So you have to focus on what the real issues are.
[37:17.700 --> 37:21.540]  All right, the real issue right now is we're a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City.
[37:21.700 --> 37:22.960]  We've been here since 1960.
[37:24.800 --> 37:40.580]  And overall, despite all the pain, despite all the struggle, despite all the arguments and all the conflicts that have happened, I think we've done a pretty good job overall.
[37:41.240 --> 37:45.620]  Now, right now, it's one of these crisis moments, but that's when we need people the most.
[37:45.800 --> 37:49.340]  That's when we need people to call and show support when we're in a crisis.
[37:52.340 --> 38:10.240]  Well, for those people who feel that they have to make a choice, who feel that it's either support the lawsuits against Pacifica to make it more democratic or support the radio station, if you really think it's a choice, maybe this will convince you.
[38:11.960 --> 38:22.740]  Everybody who calls up 212-209-2950 and pledges support to the radio station, we will personally match those funds and donate it to the lawsuits.
[38:23.080 --> 38:23.220]  Wow.
[38:24.460 --> 38:27.560]  That way, you can support both.
[38:28.020 --> 38:28.660]  All right?
[38:29.760 --> 38:33.260]  But, you know, that only works if you guys really respond.
[38:34.200 --> 38:34.880]  All right?
[38:35.120 --> 38:37.520]  Those phone calls should be lighting up the board right now.
[38:37.520 --> 38:39.680]  212-209-2950.
[38:40.300 --> 38:40.900]  All right?
[38:41.020 --> 38:57.580]  If you believe in the radio station, but you didn't contribute because you felt that doing that would take away from the strength of the legal battle that you believe in, well, contributing to the radio station will result in an equal contribution to that.
[38:57.700 --> 39:00.260]  And yeah, you know, it's going to hurt.
[39:00.400 --> 39:02.760]  It's going to take some money out of our pockets.
[39:02.900 --> 39:03.400]  But you know what?
[39:03.480 --> 39:04.700]  That's what this place is about.
[39:04.700 --> 39:05.760]  It's about pain.
[39:05.760 --> 39:06.280]  Pain.
[39:06.460 --> 39:08.060]  It's about taking money out of your pocket.
[39:08.200 --> 39:10.040]  It's about standing up for what you believe in.
[39:10.780 --> 39:11.400]  You know?
[39:11.600 --> 39:20.080]  There's no way a 50,000-watt radio station can exist in the middle of New York City for 40 years without having a single commercial.
[39:21.000 --> 39:22.280]  But we did it anyway.
[39:22.540 --> 39:25.680]  We did it anyway because we believed we could do it.
[39:26.480 --> 39:29.020]  Now, do you believe that you can do this?
[39:29.420 --> 39:33.340]  Oh, I see a lot of phone calls coming in, so I guess maybe you guys do.
[39:33.500 --> 39:35.780]  212-209-2950.
[39:35.980 --> 39:38.380]  We have two banks of phones lit up right now.
[39:38.560 --> 39:38.780]  All lit up.
[39:38.900 --> 39:39.880]  We have two banks.
[39:40.180 --> 39:42.200]  Maybe we'll see that third bank light up for the first time.
[39:42.440 --> 39:43.000]  There it is.
[39:43.100 --> 39:43.600]  There it goes.
[39:44.120 --> 39:44.420]  All right.
[39:44.560 --> 39:46.300]  212-209-2950.
[39:46.840 --> 39:52.120]  Emmanuel uses the plural here, but really it's all him that's doing this, and we have to thank him for that.
[39:52.120 --> 39:52.660]  Thank you, sir.
[39:52.980 --> 39:53.280]  Wait a minute.
[39:53.340 --> 39:54.440]  I thought you guys were pitching in, too.
[39:55.500 --> 39:57.120]  We'll have a talk afterwards.
[39:57.800 --> 39:58.720]  We'll work this out.
[39:58.720 --> 39:59.480]  We'll buy dinner tonight.
[40:01.160 --> 40:03.260]  So, again, that's my offer.
[40:03.380 --> 40:05.020]  212-209-2950.
[40:05.280 --> 40:08.820]  Pledge to the station because I believe in the station and I want the station to survive.
[40:09.020 --> 40:16.140]  And if you believe in the lawsuit and that's what's been keeping you from contributing to the station, well then, here's a way where you can have both.
[40:16.240 --> 40:18.940]  I guess it's having your cake and eating it, too, which I never could understand that phrase.
[40:20.100 --> 40:21.440]  212-209-2950.
[40:21.480 --> 40:26.240]  Looks like we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 calls on the line.
[40:26.840 --> 40:27.180]  All right.
[40:27.340 --> 40:29.340]  Think of the message you're sending, all right?
[40:29.440 --> 40:37.400]  If we top whatever number we're going to top, and I don't even know, I'm getting a little worried now, but it doesn't matter.
[40:37.520 --> 40:40.060]  You know, even if it's more money than we have, we're going to do this somehow.
[40:40.240 --> 40:41.260]  We're going to do this somehow.
[40:41.460 --> 40:43.820]  It might take a few installments, but we'll do it, all right?
[40:44.340 --> 40:52.600]  If you trust us to do this, we trust you to fulfill your pledge when you call us and pledge whatever amount you can, all right?
[40:52.720 --> 40:53.400]  Any amount.
[40:54.040 --> 40:55.480]  212-209-2950.
[40:55.860 --> 40:57.080]  Again, we have the packages.
[40:57.080 --> 41:02.980]  We have the $200 for every single back issue of 2600 magazine.
[41:03.940 --> 41:05.520]  Wow, I've never seen so many lights light up.
[41:05.540 --> 41:05.880]  Look at that.
[41:05.960 --> 41:07.100]  Do we have that many volunteers?
[41:07.580 --> 41:08.620]  I see so many of them.
[41:08.620 --> 41:10.100]  Some of them are still ringing, so I guess not.
[41:10.300 --> 41:12.560]  Yeah, but we at least have about a dozen volunteers in there.
[41:12.780 --> 41:13.880]  Stay on the line.
[41:13.940 --> 41:15.780]  People running for the tally room.
[41:16.440 --> 41:22.840]  All right, please keep calling, and if the phone keeps ringing, let it keep ringing, because your pledge means a lot to us.
[41:22.840 --> 41:38.480]  So for $200, every single back issue of 2600 magazine, for $125, every single H2K video from the H2K conference, which took place last July, and that's a good 17 videos, over 30 hours of videotape.
[41:38.840 --> 41:44.080]  And for $75, you get the 2600 clothing line of two t-shirts and a hat.
[41:44.920 --> 41:57.740]  And there's all kinds of other things, too, you can pledge for our tally room volunteers, although a bit flustered, we'll be more than happy to help you out as far as picking out what other generic BAI premiums you might be eligible for.
[41:57.940 --> 42:03.720]  But again, even if you just want to call up and pledge $10, $20, it all matters, it all counts, it all adds up.
[42:04.640 --> 42:07.300]  All right, 212-209-2950.
[42:09.400 --> 42:13.800]  We still have a lot of calls on the line, and we could probably... that might be the maximum.
[42:13.940 --> 42:15.380]  Maybe it doesn't go below that, you know?
[42:15.420 --> 42:17.140]  Maybe that's why it stopped at that particular number.
[42:17.320 --> 42:20.900]  We have exactly 15 calls on the line.
[42:21.000 --> 42:22.740]  I don't think we have more than 15 phones in there.
[42:22.900 --> 42:28.600]  So if you're getting a busy signal, God forbid, if you're getting a busy signal, then just please call back.
[42:28.820 --> 42:42.300]  And again, the offer that we're making here tonight, and this applies, this is a premium that anybody gets because it's being made because of your donation, an equal donation to the legal battle.
[42:42.420 --> 42:44.280]  The legal battle that's going on right now.
[42:45.080 --> 42:49.740]  Now, as any of us that have been involved in lawsuits knows, it's all about money.
[42:49.920 --> 42:56.360]  It's all about who has the most and who can stick with it the longest.
[42:57.880 --> 42:59.820]  Without that, you don't get anywhere.
[42:59.960 --> 43:00.840]  So yeah, it does matter.
[43:01.220 --> 43:08.260]  But the unfortunate truth also is that the radio station that's supported by listeners has to have funding in order to continue.
[43:09.880 --> 43:14.080]  All right, so it looks like we got at least 15 people to hop over the fence.
[43:14.500 --> 43:15.160]  All right?
[43:16.040 --> 43:17.480]  Imagine, imagine this.
[43:18.020 --> 43:20.960]  I don't expect this, and it's wrong to expect something like this.
[43:21.040 --> 43:25.760]  But imagine if other producers at the radio station did something similar to this.
[43:26.240 --> 43:36.360]  And the amount of money we were able to raise for the radio station also was raised for the fight to democratize things and basically things that our listeners believe in.
[43:37.040 --> 43:43.020]  You know, that fight would probably be over a lot quicker and would probably make a lot of other people happy.
[43:43.820 --> 44:08.440]  And, you know, what we're doing here tonight, I don't think there's anybody here at this radio station that does not understand the tremendous threat that over-corporation can have, that not having democratic control, not having listener input, the threat that will have to the future of non-commercial radio and to this particular non-commercial radio station.
[44:09.520 --> 44:19.180]  So, I say this knowing that a lot of us here, though we disagree on certain things, we see the bigger picture.
[44:19.520 --> 44:26.840]  We see what the future of this radio station is, we see what the potential of this radio station is, and we've seen the great things that we can do.
[44:26.960 --> 44:30.300]  We've seen it in the past, and we intend to see it in the future.
[44:30.300 --> 44:32.580]  212-209-2950.
[44:34.440 --> 44:35.960]  Actually, why don't you thank some people?
[44:36.040 --> 44:37.680]  I've got to get somebody on the phone.
[44:38.040 --> 44:38.220]  All right.
[44:38.900 --> 44:41.660]  We want to thank Robert from Sound Beach.
[44:41.820 --> 44:42.720]  Where is Sound Beach?
[44:42.960 --> 44:43.920]  Sound Beach down.
[44:45.000 --> 44:45.920]  Down, okay.
[44:46.660 --> 44:49.820]  We want to thank Joseph from Roselle, New Jersey.
[44:50.840 --> 44:51.120]  We want to...
[44:51.120 --> 44:51.580]  Roselle, New Jersey?
[44:52.060 --> 44:52.360]  What?
[44:52.600 --> 44:54.100]  Beautiful Roselle, New Jersey, yes.
[44:54.460 --> 44:56.500]  We want to thank Layton from Forest Hills.
[44:57.160 --> 44:58.300]  Craig from Rochester.
[44:58.300 --> 45:01.600]  Craig from Rochester and our friend Junts from New Jersey.
[45:01.980 --> 45:02.460]  Wonderful.
[45:03.240 --> 45:03.900]  He's busy...
[45:03.900 --> 45:05.000]  He's sitting here on IRC, too, yeah.
[45:05.100 --> 45:09.340]  He's busy taking care of the web streaming, and he still found the time to pledge, so...
[45:09.340 --> 45:17.240]  But we're basically here because you, the listeners, support us by calling up 212-209-2950.
[45:17.560 --> 45:20.700]  And I think I can verify that 15 is the maximum number of calls we can get.
[45:20.700 --> 45:20.920]  15 is the maximum?
[45:20.940 --> 45:22.560]  Because I've never seen it go below that.
[45:23.040 --> 45:23.340]  Okay.
[45:23.340 --> 45:25.360]  And every single line is lit up right now.
[45:25.360 --> 45:28.840]  So I want to thank those people for calling in and pledging.
[45:29.080 --> 45:30.560]  See, this is what it's all about.
[45:30.800 --> 45:33.160]  These guys do believe in the radio station.
[45:33.300 --> 45:40.300]  For those people out there that said, no, the people that aren't pledging because they support this other thing, it's not about the radio station.
[45:40.820 --> 45:41.580]  It is.
[45:41.720 --> 45:42.300]  They care.
[45:42.380 --> 45:43.080]  They care enough.
[45:43.880 --> 45:46.400]  They just want to be able to support that other thing as well.
[45:46.400 --> 45:48.120]  And I fully understand that.
[45:48.260 --> 45:52.380]  So if this brings people together, then I'm happy to help in that particular regard.
[45:54.020 --> 45:58.100]  And, well, obviously they haven't been able to update the tally, but we were at 4750 a while ago.
[45:58.240 --> 46:00.220]  We've gotten a couple dozen calls since then.
[46:00.220 --> 46:00.920]  They're a little busy in there.
[46:01.000 --> 46:03.140]  So it's going to be a big number, but that's okay.
[46:03.140 --> 46:03.680]  It's fine.
[46:03.900 --> 46:04.840]  You know, it's...
[46:04.840 --> 46:11.540]  I like to think of it as our obligation because we've been here so long doing this, and we've been able to reach so many people.
[46:12.320 --> 46:18.800]  One really good example of people being reached comes in the form of Bernie S.
[46:18.920 --> 46:19.240]  Bernie S.
[46:19.460 --> 46:20.260]  joins us now from Philadelphia.
[46:21.320 --> 46:22.420]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[46:22.620 --> 46:23.040]  Hello, Bernie.
[46:23.700 --> 46:29.500]  I just ducked out of the Philadelphia Free Library where I was watching a screening of Woody Allen's Manhattan.
[46:29.760 --> 46:31.500]  But I'm in Philadelphia and you're in Manhattan.
[46:31.620 --> 46:32.040]  That's true.
[46:32.240 --> 46:32.580]  That's true.
[46:32.660 --> 46:34.080]  And that represents another sacrifice.
[46:34.300 --> 46:43.180]  But, Bernie, in the time we have, because things are going crazy here with all the pledges coming in, tell us what this place has meant to you over the years.
[46:44.860 --> 46:51.080]  WBAI has very possibly literally been a lifesaver for me.
[46:52.880 --> 47:08.340]  From some of our longtime listeners who were listening back in 95 and 96, you may recall I was going through a very tough period of my life being held in federal prison for something the federal government even admitted there were no victims.
[47:09.640 --> 47:12.160]  for a particular thing they were trying to prosecute me for.
[47:12.220 --> 47:19.800]  In any case, were it not for the support of this particular program and its listeners, I might have just gone off the deep end.
[47:20.280 --> 47:26.200]  I was a regular caller of the show on moments when I was able to get to a phone while I was incarcerated.
[47:26.400 --> 47:29.300]  And it literally made a world of difference to me.
[47:29.300 --> 47:41.360]  And I hope it opened the eyes of a lot of our listeners as to some of the problems with the criminal justice system and with laws regulating technology and that sort of thing, which is what this show is all about, among other things.
[47:41.620 --> 47:48.220]  So I owe a debt of gratitude to you and to our listeners and to WBAI.
[47:48.280 --> 47:55.500]  And I hope WBAI will continue to cover important issues about things that really affect people.
[47:56.240 --> 47:58.720]  Well, we wholly intend to, as long as we're here.
[47:59.100 --> 48:01.920]  And that means we need your support.
[48:02.640 --> 48:04.200]  Now, I know we've got Bernie's support, right?
[48:04.680 --> 48:05.120]  Absolutely.
[48:05.500 --> 48:08.920]  As a matter of fact, I'd like to make a pledge while I'm here.
[48:09.240 --> 48:09.680]  Okay.
[48:09.680 --> 48:10.880]  I'll pledge...
[48:10.880 --> 48:13.000]  I'd like to make a pledge of $50.
[48:13.460 --> 48:23.560]  And I'll also pledge $50 matching funds to, I guess, what I feel is the most promising listener lawsuit.
[48:24.500 --> 48:26.620]  I'm arming both sides of this situation.
[48:26.800 --> 48:30.400]  But I think WBAI needs support in knowing that we...
[48:30.400 --> 48:33.860]  You know, the listeners support the station in its original goals.
[48:33.860 --> 48:40.780]  But I also want to support listeners who are making efforts to keep WBAI on the right track.
[48:41.800 --> 48:42.760]  You okay down there?
[48:43.660 --> 48:44.300]  Can you hear me?
[48:45.160 --> 48:45.460]  Okay.
[48:45.560 --> 48:46.260]  We don't have enough volunteers.
[48:46.400 --> 48:47.060]  We don't have enough volunteers.
[48:47.260 --> 48:47.740]  Should I go over?
[48:48.060 --> 48:48.380]  Yeah.
[48:48.580 --> 48:52.640]  Isaac, why don't you run down there and give the people a good shot in the arm as far as morale.
[48:53.480 --> 48:57.540]  Okay, Bernie, I think it's safe to say that your $50 match has already been met.
[48:58.500 --> 49:00.700]  We are joined now by Fiber Optic.
[49:01.120 --> 49:01.900]  Hi, how are you?
[49:01.900 --> 49:02.980]  Coming to us live from New York.
[49:02.980 --> 49:04.380]  Live from New York.
[49:04.580 --> 49:05.740]  Well, all that work.
[49:05.880 --> 49:06.160]  Saturday night.
[49:06.320 --> 49:07.780]  Now, the two of you are allowed to talk.
[49:07.880 --> 49:08.900]  Obviously, we had Kevin on before.
[49:08.900 --> 49:10.700]  He wasn't allowed to talk to you guys because, you know...
[49:10.700 --> 49:13.240]  I'm just going to get this for the rest of my life, aren't I?
[49:13.260 --> 49:13.820]  Yeah, you are.
[49:14.180 --> 49:16.020]  I've been on probation for years.
[49:16.620 --> 49:17.220]  I know, I know.
[49:17.220 --> 49:19.480]  And people still ask me, is it okay to talk to this guy?
[49:21.100 --> 49:27.880]  Well, now, you two guys were both, you know, the whole saga of your escapades or, you know, the horrible things that happened to you.
[49:28.820 --> 49:32.160]  All were documented here on this radio station and...
[49:32.160 --> 49:32.760]  This is true.
[49:32.760 --> 49:40.300]  I risked life and limb and other things to call into the show from prison.
[49:41.240 --> 49:43.920]  How did the radio make things easier for you?
[49:45.080 --> 49:50.860]  Well, just actually having an avenue to speak to a large audience.
[49:51.280 --> 49:59.780]  I mean, you know, together with doing interviews whenever I could when I was in prison, which also helped.
[49:59.780 --> 50:05.660]  But speaking out on the radio is probably the quickest way to reach a wider audience.
[50:05.980 --> 50:22.360]  And if nothing else, it's very cathartic to actually get your voice out when you feel like, you know, just your everyday existence is being so constricted by the powers that be.
[50:23.220 --> 50:23.780]  All right.
[50:23.820 --> 50:31.320]  It's very important that we continue to have that voice, which is why we're here tonight asking people to phone in and show their support.
[50:31.940 --> 50:34.580]  We've lost both Mike and Isaac to the tally room.
[50:34.580 --> 50:36.660]  And that's how crazy, busy things have gotten.
[50:38.020 --> 50:39.720]  And, well, that's a good thing.
[50:39.780 --> 50:40.520]  That's a very good thing.
[50:40.600 --> 50:43.900]  It shows that the support is out there and that people do care.
[50:43.900 --> 50:45.740]  And that's something I've never doubted for a second.
[50:46.940 --> 50:54.440]  And we're happy to give that right back to you by showing that we care by donating to something that, obviously, so many people believe in.
[50:55.560 --> 51:02.720]  The important thing is keeping this place where it is and keeping our signal strong and our voices as strong.
[51:03.800 --> 51:09.940]  We only have a couple of minutes left, so if you guys want to say anything in summation, wrap things up in any way.
[51:10.720 --> 51:11.560]  Why don't you go ahead?
[51:11.660 --> 51:12.900]  No, I was talking to the people on the phone.
[51:12.960 --> 51:13.200]  Oh, okay.
[51:13.340 --> 51:13.560]  Fine.
[51:14.340 --> 51:15.420]  Bernie and Fiber.
[51:17.200 --> 51:18.160]  Bernie, Fiber, are you there?
[51:18.380 --> 51:19.860]  Yeah, we're along here.
[51:20.100 --> 51:21.820]  Okay, well, you know, one of you can talk first.
[51:23.480 --> 51:24.140]  You first.
[51:24.340 --> 51:26.320]  They're so polite, they don't want to step on each other.
[51:26.360 --> 51:27.400]  Yeah, me first.
[51:27.520 --> 51:28.040]  Oh, you first.
[51:29.740 --> 51:30.580]  Talk about what?
[51:31.880 --> 51:33.320]  Well, just sum up.
[51:33.420 --> 51:34.940]  We're going out now.
[51:35.040 --> 51:36.380]  We have about two minutes left.
[51:36.500 --> 51:38.060]  Anything new going on with you?
[51:38.340 --> 51:42.740]  Oh, well, nothing really politically savvy.
[51:43.440 --> 51:47.980]  Actually, something I should tell people that just happened, actually, this just happened yesterday.
[51:47.980 --> 51:50.140]  We got a little letter from Mary Jo White.
[51:50.280 --> 51:50.940]  You know who she is, right?
[51:51.360 --> 51:52.340]  Mary Jo White.
[51:52.400 --> 51:53.780]  Why does that name sound really familiar?
[51:53.960 --> 51:57.960]  Because she's the, what is it, district attorney of New York?
[51:58.160 --> 51:58.920]  Or U.S.
[51:58.920 --> 51:59.280]  U.S.
[51:59.400 --> 52:00.160]  Attorney, yeah.
[52:00.780 --> 52:06.540]  She sent us a little letter saying that she wants to get involved in the appeal and not on our side.
[52:07.140 --> 52:07.840]  She wants to...
[52:07.840 --> 52:08.420]  Oh, that's amusing.
[52:08.700 --> 52:09.300]  Yeah, the U.S.
[52:09.600 --> 52:13.280]  government has decided to take an interest in our case now.
[52:13.900 --> 52:15.000]  This is the MPAA case?
[52:15.020 --> 52:16.140]  Yeah, the MPAA appeal.
[52:16.780 --> 52:22.000]  They are interested because we are challenging the constitutionality of the DMCA.
[52:22.580 --> 52:25.600]  And when you do that, sometimes the government takes exception to it.
[52:25.600 --> 52:26.700]  Well, they took exception to it.
[52:26.800 --> 52:29.680]  They're going to be filing papers that are due by the 19th of February.
[52:30.340 --> 52:33.040]  And this case has all of a sudden gotten a lot more interesting.
[52:33.540 --> 52:36.240]  It's more likely to go to the Supreme Court now because of that.
[52:37.280 --> 52:43.900]  And let's just hope that we're around to keep talking about it and all the other cases that are going to happen down the road because there's going to be so much.
[52:43.920 --> 52:45.080]  It's a very interesting world.
[52:45.340 --> 52:46.240]  What do you think of that, Bernie?
[52:47.700 --> 52:49.660]  Well, it sounds like they're ganging up on you again.
[52:49.800 --> 52:56.880]  But as long as people can hear about what's going on on this station, I'm hoping that it will eventually come out victorious in it.
[52:57.040 --> 52:57.500]  Hey, look at that.
[52:57.600 --> 52:58.580]  There's only four calls on the line.
[52:58.660 --> 53:05.960]  That means we can open up that phone number one more time and say, for the last time tonight, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[53:06.100 --> 53:15.000]  Again, for any pledge that comes in, we will match it and send an equal amount to the listener lawsuits going on against the Pacifica board.
[53:16.460 --> 53:24.820]  And I don't consider that anti-Pacifica at all because I consider all of us here in this place to be part of Pacifica, and we understand what it's all about.
[53:24.920 --> 53:30.300]  We understand what the true meaning of this place is, and we value that.
[53:30.420 --> 53:39.240]  We value that in all different ways, whether it's just spending every single day of our waking existence here, or whether it be contributing whatever it is we can in whatever way we can.
[53:39.340 --> 53:41.340]  I think that's all we can ask of anybody.
[53:41.560 --> 53:44.800]  So if you want to be part of that, 212-209-2950.
[53:45.560 --> 53:47.980]  You can ask the volunteers about the various premiums.
[53:47.980 --> 53:55.440]  I don't want to go over them again because we really are out of time, but I do want to thank everybody for calling in, for showing their support, not just now, but over the years.
[53:55.960 --> 53:57.820]  It's been unbelievable, too.
[53:58.420 --> 53:59.220]  That means two minutes, right?
[53:59.380 --> 54:00.100]  Yes, two minutes.
[54:00.340 --> 54:00.560]  All right.
[54:00.640 --> 54:01.660]  I'll be out of here in two minutes.
[54:01.960 --> 54:03.220]  Guys, say goodnight.
[54:04.160 --> 54:04.480]  Goodnight.
[54:05.240 --> 54:05.560]  Goodnight.
[54:06.560 --> 54:06.940]  All right.
[54:07.000 --> 54:09.620]  Go back to your film, Bernie, and Fiber, we'll talk to you soon.
[54:09.820 --> 54:10.020]  Okay.
[54:10.180 --> 54:10.500]  Thanks a lot.
[54:10.580 --> 54:10.900]  Goodnight, folks.
[54:10.940 --> 54:11.120]  All right.
[54:11.200 --> 54:11.440]  Thanks.
[54:11.520 --> 54:13.660]  And thanks to Kevin Mitnick for calling in earlier.
[54:14.740 --> 54:15.560]  We'll be back again.
[54:15.560 --> 54:22.100]  And we won't be back next week because Mike Levine's going to have a five-hour expert witness show, and that's certainly going to be something to take in.
[54:22.180 --> 54:23.400]  I'm really looking forward to that.
[54:23.920 --> 54:29.660]  But we will be back in two weeks with the help of our listeners for supporting this place.
[54:29.820 --> 54:30.220]  Thanks again.
[54:30.380 --> 54:31.560]  212-209-2950.
[54:32.300 --> 54:33.460]  Please continue to show your support.
[54:33.680 --> 54:34.060]  Goodnight.
[54:35.920 --> 54:36.320]  Goodnight.
[54:45.470 --> 54:45.870]  Goodnight.
[54:46.430 --> 54:46.710]  Bye.
[54:49.370 --> 54:49.650]  Bye.
[54:49.650 --> 54:49.750]  Bye.
[54:49.750 --> 54:49.830]  Bye.
[54:50.250 --> 54:50.430]  Bye.
[54:50.710 --> 54:50.850]  Bye.
[54:50.910 --> 54:51.190]  Bye.
[54:51.670 --> 54:51.730]  Bye.
[54:52.090 --> 54:52.370]  Bye.