[00:01.210 --> 00:02.790]  Crusade.
[00:05.010 --> 00:06.990]  Anarchism for the global city.
[00:07.470 --> 00:10.510]  Radical environmentalism for the concrete jungle.
[00:11.270 --> 00:15.150]  Esoteric explorations of the secret history of rebel culture.
[00:15.530 --> 00:18.430]  The Moorish Orthodox Radio Crusade.
[00:18.650 --> 00:28.430]  Every Tuesday at midnight after the news, only on listener-supported, non-commercial WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
[00:30.010 --> 00:30.990]  Be there.
[00:34.920 --> 00:45.960]  And you're there now, so all you have to do is stay here, and you'll hear that program along with many other very fascinating snippets from 99.5 FM WBAI in New York.
[00:46.110 --> 00:50.240]  It's currently 8 o'clock, and that means it's once again time for Off the Hook.
[00:57.430 --> 01:01.890]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:02.910 --> 01:07.510]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:08.270 --> 01:08.450]  It
[01:12.570 --> 01:15.830]  would, from Bigly Bump, but the best expect the worst.
[01:16.510 --> 01:19.430]  I hope that's understood, from Bigly Bump!
[01:50.690 --> 01:52.430]  And a very good evening to one and all.
[01:52.510 --> 01:53.590]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:53.930 --> 01:57.490]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday night.
[01:57.490 --> 01:59.110]  And, yes, I am back.
[01:59.270 --> 02:00.270]  I'm here this week.
[02:00.870 --> 02:10.110]  And, boy, I guess the first thing, the first thing we should cover, Isaac, is the fact that last week neither one of us was here, and it wasn't quite expected to be that way.
[02:10.130 --> 02:11.350]  That was a bit of an oversight, yeah.
[02:11.350 --> 02:15.750]  It was a bit of a blunder, and I really, you know, we misunderstood each other.
[02:15.830 --> 02:17.390]  I thought you were going to be here.
[02:17.470 --> 02:19.110]  Well, actually, I thought I was going to be here, too.
[02:19.490 --> 02:20.150]  Okay, let me explain.
[02:20.250 --> 02:22.490]  It all is Verizon's fault, all right?
[02:22.650 --> 02:23.210]  I agree.
[02:23.370 --> 02:24.210]  It's Verizon's fault.
[02:24.210 --> 02:30.870]  I mean, I don't want to just say that everything bad that happens is Verizon's fault, but in this particular case, boy, they really did a number on us, all right?
[02:31.370 --> 02:35.210]  First of all, for no reason at all, and this happened the previous week.
[02:35.230 --> 02:36.330]  It was on Wednesday.
[02:36.510 --> 02:37.570]  Nice, pleasant day.
[02:37.830 --> 02:40.710]  You know, the birds were singing, and all kinds of nice things were happening.
[02:41.170 --> 02:45.590]  And all of a sudden, we just lost connectivity, you know, at the 2600 home office.
[02:45.790 --> 02:48.970]  We just lost connectivity and could not get out to the net at all.
[02:49.070 --> 02:49.990]  You know, it's okay.
[02:50.170 --> 02:51.070]  You deal with these things.
[02:51.170 --> 02:53.450]  Actually, not being on the net is kind of a relief sometimes.
[02:53.450 --> 02:57.610]  For those of you who aren't on the net, it's not all that bad to not be on the net.
[02:57.730 --> 03:06.330]  When you're on the net, you're constantly worrying about piddling things, and sometimes, if you just let yourself get away from it, you find that life is really cool on its own.
[03:06.470 --> 03:06.710]  Yes.
[03:06.930 --> 03:08.770]  But, you know, that kind of wore out after a while.
[03:09.410 --> 03:10.750]  After a while, I started to get annoyed.
[03:10.930 --> 03:11.970]  As the email piles up.
[03:11.970 --> 03:12.590]  Yeah, why?
[03:12.830 --> 03:13.870]  Well, the email piles up someplace.
[03:14.070 --> 03:15.130]  It doesn't pile up in your mailbox.
[03:15.430 --> 03:16.690]  It's bouncing around someplace.
[03:18.490 --> 03:20.750]  So we tried to find out just what the problem was.
[03:20.750 --> 03:23.270]  Now, DSL is what a lot of people have these days.
[03:24.010 --> 03:26.010]  It's the popular high-speed connection.
[03:27.450 --> 03:29.350]  It never goes down, according to the advertisers.
[03:29.470 --> 03:33.690]  Let me tell you, folks, it goes down more than, you know, what goes down a lot.
[03:33.690 --> 03:36.050]  Let's not have the Sailor and 42nd Street Jackson.
[03:36.070 --> 03:36.070]  More than that.
[03:36.070 --> 03:37.190]  The parachute drop at Coney Island.
[03:37.330 --> 03:38.170]  It goes down more than that.
[03:38.510 --> 03:38.950]  All right?
[03:39.210 --> 03:41.230]  So, basically, this thing is down.
[03:41.370 --> 03:42.290]  We're trying to figure out why.
[03:42.430 --> 03:43.510]  We have three companies.
[03:43.510 --> 03:44.350]  We have our provider.
[03:44.530 --> 03:47.010]  We have the DSL provider, who our provider contracts from.
[03:47.130 --> 03:51.970]  And then we have Verizon, who actually string the copper, you know, and oftentimes cut it.
[03:52.050 --> 03:58.270]  And in this case, apparently what they did was they fouled something up in that big silver box on the side of the road that they're always playing with.
[03:59.550 --> 04:01.370]  So we couldn't just go to Verizon.
[04:01.470 --> 04:03.570]  In fact, we couldn't go to the DSL contractor.
[04:03.690 --> 04:05.210]  We had to go to our provider.
[04:05.550 --> 04:07.990]  Our provider then contacts our DSL provider.
[04:08.110 --> 04:09.310]  They make sure it's not them.
[04:09.470 --> 04:12.550]  And then they call Verizon and say, you guys messed up.
[04:12.550 --> 04:15.150]  So you're only allowed to talk to one person of this entire chain?
[04:15.290 --> 04:16.590]  Well, one entity, yes.
[04:16.810 --> 04:16.870]  Wow.
[04:16.870 --> 04:18.010]  And that's the provider.
[04:18.210 --> 04:22.170]  So, basically, the provider contacted both...
[04:22.170 --> 04:23.510]  Well, the company in this case is NAS.
[04:24.810 --> 04:25.830]  Some people have COVID.
[04:25.870 --> 04:26.370]  We have NAS.
[04:27.090 --> 04:28.510]  And they also contacted Verizon.
[04:28.670 --> 04:33.530]  They opened up a ticket, and they both supposedly conferred together to see where the problem was.
[04:33.610 --> 04:35.290]  Verizon said, it's not our fault.
[04:35.290 --> 04:35.830]  It's NAS.
[04:36.090 --> 04:39.290]  So NAS dispatched a guy to come out to our facility.
[04:39.790 --> 04:42.150]  Except NAS never told us that they were doing this.
[04:42.150 --> 04:44.030]  And the guy showed up, and nobody was there.
[04:44.470 --> 04:47.450]  So then he said, okay, well, I'll come back sometime then.
[04:47.850 --> 04:48.110]  Uh-oh.
[04:48.270 --> 04:49.230]  He wasn't allowed...
[04:49.230 --> 04:50.330]  This is what he said.
[04:50.390 --> 04:51.770]  He wasn't allowed to come back on Saturday.
[04:51.870 --> 04:55.090]  Even though he was working on Saturday, his supervisor would not permit him to come back on Saturday.
[04:55.090 --> 04:56.850]  So he could only come back on Monday.
[04:57.870 --> 05:01.030]  But Monday, he said he came to our facility, but never did.
[05:01.350 --> 05:02.850]  You know, they lied to us.
[05:02.910 --> 05:03.490]  They said they were there.
[05:03.550 --> 05:04.310]  And we were there all day.
[05:04.410 --> 05:05.230]  You know, it was not there.
[05:05.870 --> 05:06.930]  So, finally...
[05:06.930 --> 05:08.390]  And keep in mind, we've been out all this time.
[05:08.390 --> 05:11.950]  Occasionally, we come back up, so Mel is sort of, like, you know, dribbling in.
[05:12.110 --> 05:12.390]  Dribbling in.
[05:12.510 --> 05:14.450]  But Tuesday, he finally showed up.
[05:14.690 --> 05:15.090]  All right?
[05:15.210 --> 05:19.530]  And messed around with our wires and routers and things like that for many, many hours.
[05:19.790 --> 05:21.750]  Finally determining that the problem was Verizon.
[05:21.930 --> 05:25.930]  So after a week of this nonsense, we discovered that Verizon had done something.
[05:27.370 --> 05:29.170]  Well, all that was a hassle.
[05:29.230 --> 05:30.750]  But that's not a show-stopping hassle.
[05:30.870 --> 05:35.010]  The show-stopping hassle, for me, anyway, came when the moron let the cat out of the house.
[05:35.010 --> 05:37.270]  And the cat's wandering around all throughout the neighborhood.
[05:37.450 --> 05:44.810]  So I was beside myself trying to find out where this indoor cat is outside in the wild, you know, with traffic and all that kind of thing.
[05:44.870 --> 05:46.370]  And I've already been through this once before.
[05:46.690 --> 05:48.790]  It was a real trying experience.
[05:48.790 --> 05:52.090]  So that's what kept me from even calling or dealing with anything else.
[05:52.210 --> 05:52.830]  Hours went by.
[05:52.850 --> 05:53.830]  I didn't even know what was going on.
[05:54.170 --> 06:01.350]  It's kind of heartening in a way that the only thing that can stop this radio program is a cat run wild.
[06:01.350 --> 06:09.470]  But that's really... I guess it kind of points out something that life is something that always can get in the way when you least expect it to.
[06:09.550 --> 06:10.490]  And that's what happened in this case.
[06:11.010 --> 06:14.010]  We passed a message on to you, hoping that you would be here.
[06:14.110 --> 06:16.390]  But you had already made commitments to be someplace else.
[06:16.490 --> 06:18.210]  And apparently the message didn't get to you until after the show.
[06:18.390 --> 06:18.530]  Right.
[06:18.530 --> 06:22.810]  So a couple of guys here did a fill-in show.
[06:22.950 --> 06:24.750]  And I, you know, got some mail about it.
[06:25.850 --> 06:26.770]  No, it was good.
[06:26.950 --> 06:27.850]  I haven't listened to it yet.
[06:27.890 --> 06:28.610]  I haven't heard it.
[06:28.910 --> 06:29.630]  It's on the site.
[06:29.930 --> 06:30.470]  Yeah, it's on the site.
[06:30.470 --> 06:31.830]  I'll have to get it at some point, too.
[06:31.910 --> 06:33.170]  I haven't had a chance to listen to it.
[06:33.290 --> 06:34.270]  But no, nothing.
[06:34.450 --> 06:35.610]  There were all kinds of rumors.
[06:35.710 --> 06:36.650]  I had to stop the rumors.
[06:36.870 --> 06:38.030]  The cat came back, by the way.
[06:38.090 --> 06:39.010]  The cat came back on his own.
[06:39.070 --> 06:39.490]  Well, that's a relief.
[06:39.570 --> 06:41.430]  At 9 o'clock, right after the show was over.
[06:48.530 --> 06:53.550]  But there were all kinds of rumors going around that, you know, we were terminated because of the things I said two weeks ago.
[06:53.710 --> 06:55.230]  And that's just not the case at all.
[06:55.330 --> 06:56.590]  Nobody has said anything to us.
[06:57.290 --> 06:59.690]  Everything is cool as far as this show goes.
[06:59.850 --> 07:01.790]  And everything I said two weeks ago, I stand by.
[07:02.390 --> 07:06.290]  And it's, you know, that's simply the way things are right now.
[07:06.750 --> 07:10.670]  Speaking of the things I said a couple of weeks ago, we went, a couple of us went on the...
[07:11.070 --> 07:11.670]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[07:12.430 --> 07:13.230]  Your microphone's on.
[07:13.310 --> 07:13.470]  Go ahead.
[07:13.810 --> 07:20.270]  Before you proceed, I should just take the opportunity again to thank Paul Williams, who engineered the show on no notice.
[07:20.510 --> 07:25.030]  And I know we had some disagreements, but he really went above the call of duty to help us with that.
[07:25.150 --> 07:26.070]  I want to thank him for...
[07:26.070 --> 07:31.790]  I mean, you know, we could have just gone to Music Phil or something like that, but he bent over backwards to help us out in that case.
[07:32.010 --> 07:34.190]  And it's my cat's fault.
[07:34.330 --> 07:35.310]  No, it's Verizon's fault.
[07:36.550 --> 07:44.130]  I take responsibility, but ultimately it's Verizon's fault, okay, that the show did not go on as scheduled last week in its proper form.
[07:44.210 --> 07:46.330]  But, hey, you know, these things can happen.
[07:46.330 --> 07:51.890]  It's the only time in the history of this radio show that that kind of thing has happened, that nobody knew where the host was.
[07:53.990 --> 07:57.730]  So, anyway, a few of us went on the march across the Brooklyn Bridge.
[07:57.890 --> 07:59.790]  Now, I had never marched across the Brooklyn Bridge before.
[07:59.950 --> 08:00.690]  This was really cool.
[08:00.830 --> 08:02.130]  Have you walked across the Brooklyn Bridge before?
[08:02.610 --> 08:03.190]  Okay, listen.
[08:03.650 --> 08:07.230]  When I said never marched, I mean I never walked, I never crawled, I never rolled over.
[08:07.230 --> 08:10.030]  I never crossed the bridge except in a car.
[08:10.230 --> 08:10.370]  Okay.
[08:10.510 --> 08:10.710]  All right.
[08:11.370 --> 08:22.090]  Last Saturday, a bunch of people gathered in Brooklyn and marched across the Brooklyn Bridge right here to the radio station, not here in the studio, but outside in the, I guess, what do you call that thing?
[08:22.390 --> 08:23.150]  Well, it's not a lobby.
[08:23.290 --> 08:23.950]  It's a street.
[08:24.090 --> 08:24.490]  Street.
[08:24.730 --> 08:25.850]  The side of the road.
[08:25.850 --> 08:29.010]  Well, yeah, but it's not a street insofar as it's not, you know...
[08:29.010 --> 08:31.430]  The sidewalk immediately joined with the building.
[08:31.430 --> 08:33.670]  It's a great place to have a rally, you know?
[08:34.090 --> 08:34.390]  Okay.
[08:35.010 --> 08:50.350]  I mean, that's why moving to Wall Street was such a good idea, because we can have these rallies outside the radio station, but the whole thing, and, you know, if there's anything that we have to thank Pacifica for, it's for strengthening people to do this kind of a thing,
[08:50.470 --> 08:53.310]  and getting us to do things like march across the Brooklyn Bridge.
[08:53.410 --> 08:54.570]  I mean, that was the most amazing thing.
[08:54.750 --> 09:00.470]  I didn't see all that many staff people, and I'm kind of sad about that, unless they were in disguise or something.
[09:00.770 --> 09:03.670]  I did see a few, but it's a good thing, you know?
[09:03.830 --> 09:04.790]  It's a good thing to march across.
[09:04.990 --> 09:11.170]  And, you know, you would never believe how many people driving by in their cars were honking their horns.
[09:11.570 --> 09:12.030]  I mean, it's...
[09:12.030 --> 09:13.770]  You were on the pedestrian walkway, right?
[09:13.910 --> 09:14.070]  Yeah.
[09:14.230 --> 09:15.270]  Well, no, we were in the street.
[09:15.350 --> 09:16.590]  No, of course, we were on the pedestrian walkway.
[09:16.650 --> 09:18.290]  Okay, I'm trying to establish why they were honking their horns.
[09:18.390 --> 09:20.230]  No, because they were passing us on the left and the right.
[09:20.350 --> 09:20.490]  Right.
[09:20.670 --> 09:23.610]  And they weren't just honking their horns, because, you know, they felt like honking their horns.
[09:23.730 --> 09:26.230]  They were shouting, you know, hey, BAI, and that kind of thing.
[09:26.290 --> 09:26.870]  They were listeners.
[09:27.210 --> 09:27.670]  People were listening.
[09:27.670 --> 09:35.850]  There was one group of people in an apartment building, it must have been 25 stories up, with a big, huge Save WBAI banner, which I thought was amazing.
[09:36.290 --> 09:37.290]  This is a good thing.
[09:37.430 --> 09:38.470]  This is a great thing.
[09:38.770 --> 09:44.410]  And, you know, to say people that do this kind of thing are anti-radio stations, it's just, it's silly.
[09:44.950 --> 09:46.290]  You know, it really is.
[09:46.510 --> 09:47.390]  These are our listeners.
[09:47.530 --> 09:49.030]  These are the people that keep us on the air.
[09:49.550 --> 09:52.190]  And as long as they stay interested, it's a good thing.
[09:52.190 --> 09:55.430]  So I hope that they constantly stay interested.
[09:55.970 --> 09:57.830]  And all these people running towards us.
[09:57.910 --> 09:58.710]  Okay, these are our guests.
[09:58.830 --> 09:59.350]  Okay, that's good.
[09:59.890 --> 10:01.110]  I thought they were stormtroopers.
[10:01.270 --> 10:01.710]  Only kidding.
[10:03.610 --> 10:10.670]  Okay, we've had a very busy day, so if we sound a little disjointed, it's because we've been running around the city like crazy, and we've got all kinds of stories to tell you about that.
[10:11.370 --> 10:11.810]  Come on in.
[10:11.850 --> 10:12.430]  Everybody, come on in.
[10:12.510 --> 10:13.030]  Everybody, come on in.
[10:13.150 --> 10:14.830]  We've got a group of people here.
[10:16.630 --> 10:19.030]  So, yeah, that was the activity on Saturday.
[10:19.030 --> 10:21.710]  And, boy, it really was something.
[10:21.790 --> 10:23.650]  You know, I did something, though, last week.
[10:24.070 --> 10:28.670]  I did this just out of pure curiosity, because I realized another really good move.
[10:28.770 --> 10:32.410]  And I know a lot of people disagree with this, but I think it was a very good move for us to move down to Wall Street.
[10:32.890 --> 10:34.570]  You know, people said, oh, you're moving to Wall Street.
[10:34.570 --> 10:35.250]  It's a sellout.
[10:35.350 --> 10:35.830]  Belly of the Beast.
[10:35.910 --> 10:36.390]  That kind of a thing.
[10:36.890 --> 10:37.870]  But, no, it's great.
[10:37.930 --> 10:40.270]  It's great down here on Wall Street, because you get to see all the businessmen.
[10:40.270 --> 10:43.510]  You get to make fun of them as they're, you know, running around like crazy with their suits and ties.
[10:43.510 --> 10:50.490]  And you're, you know, casually walking around, you know, on the way to a radio show or, you know, talking to people about radio, that kind of a thing.
[10:50.630 --> 10:54.930]  It's just good to be in the midst of this kind of a thing, because you don't have far to go.
[10:55.090 --> 11:01.610]  I mean, after the rally on Saturday, you know, you could break up into all kinds of different demonstrations and demonstrate against Merrill Lynch and Citibank and Donald Trump.
[11:01.730 --> 11:02.650]  They're all here.
[11:02.830 --> 11:06.110]  You just keep walking down the street, and you can just start a demonstration.
[11:06.190 --> 11:08.030]  It's a convenience of protest thing.
[11:08.030 --> 11:09.370]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[11:09.730 --> 11:13.850]  Activism should not be delegated or relegated, rather, to a, you know, particular party.
[11:13.930 --> 11:23.690]  Not like, you know, the free speech zone in Los Angeles, you know, where, yeah, you can stand in this particular section of the Staples Center and exercise free speech, but don't step over the line and you'll be arrested.
[11:24.130 --> 11:25.750]  No, you've got to be right in their faces.
[11:25.850 --> 11:27.690]  You've got to be right, you know, outside the buildings.
[11:28.170 --> 11:32.690]  So, in this particular case, they're right outside this building, but, you know, with some very positive messages.
[11:33.430 --> 11:35.650]  But there are many, many other places to go on Wall Street.
[11:35.750 --> 11:37.090]  But here's what I did last week.
[11:37.090 --> 11:38.910]  I went to the old studio.
[11:39.210 --> 11:40.470]  Remember, we used to be on 8th Avenue.
[11:40.590 --> 11:43.610]  Yeah, which does not have water or anywhere near it.
[11:43.610 --> 11:48.230]  No, and, you know, I'm saying it's a very good thing that we moved down here because you couldn't have a rally on 8th Avenue.
[11:48.610 --> 11:51.630]  You know, 8th Avenue and 35th Street, you couldn't have a rally there.
[11:51.670 --> 11:52.270]  You'd definitely have...
[11:52.270 --> 11:53.190]  You'd get run over by a bus.
[11:53.210 --> 11:54.890]  Yeah, you'd have the cars honking at that point.
[11:54.950 --> 11:58.790]  Yeah, and you'd also have the police department right next door to the radio station, which I always thought was a bad idea.
[12:00.410 --> 12:03.870]  So, I went over there, and I went up to the, what was it, 19th floor?
[12:04.250 --> 12:06.530]  Yeah, the old 19th floor radio station.
[12:06.530 --> 12:07.650]  I just wanted to see who moved in there.
[12:07.770 --> 12:15.130]  I figured it was, you know, some lawyer or, you know, executive of some sort, some boring office now taking our place where we used to do radio.
[12:15.430 --> 12:16.010]  And you know what's there?
[12:16.990 --> 12:18.330]  I'm not even going to hazard a guess.
[12:19.130 --> 12:20.390]  The Big Apple Circus.
[12:21.130 --> 12:21.490]  Really?
[12:21.690 --> 12:25.170]  The Big Apple Circus has its offices in our old radio station.
[12:25.330 --> 12:26.030]  Oh, that's great.
[12:26.410 --> 12:30.770]  And I asked the receptionist, I said, hey, do you know there used to be a radio station here?
[12:30.770 --> 12:32.150]  And she rolled her eyes and said, oh, yeah.
[12:33.050 --> 12:36.990]  She gets all kinds of people visiting, you know, that think the radio station is there.
[12:38.150 --> 12:42.950]  I guess she doesn't get people calling because the phone number is different, but, you know, people come by thinking that we're still there.
[12:43.050 --> 12:43.910]  The Big Apple Circus.
[12:43.910 --> 12:45.970]  I couldn't think of a more appropriate substitute for BAI.
[12:46.110 --> 12:46.570]  That's not bad.
[12:46.730 --> 12:47.270]  I like that.
[12:47.390 --> 12:47.550]  Yeah.
[12:47.710 --> 12:50.290]  So that was a learning experience.
[12:50.970 --> 12:51.730]  That was something.
[12:52.210 --> 12:55.750]  I was there with AutoJack, who joins us on the phone right now from San Diego.
[12:56.170 --> 12:56.710]  AutoJack, are you there?
[12:56.910 --> 12:57.050]  Hey.
[12:57.170 --> 12:57.550]  Yeah, I'm here.
[12:57.930 --> 12:59.310]  You were in the city last week.
[12:59.350 --> 13:05.510]  In fact, you were the casualty of the cat incident because you were supposed to be on the radio live last week on Tuesday.
[13:05.650 --> 13:07.730]  And unfortunately, you helped me search for the cat.
[13:07.850 --> 13:09.130]  And I want to thank you for that.
[13:10.570 --> 13:13.670]  But you were there for the Big Apple Circus thing.
[13:14.050 --> 13:14.950]  Yeah, it was definitely there.
[13:15.150 --> 13:18.610]  I wonder how many people at the radio station have bothered to go back and see what's there now.
[13:18.770 --> 13:22.290]  In fact, there are other places that we used to be in the city, which I'm not familiar with.
[13:22.590 --> 13:24.630]  People should go back there and see what's occupying the spaces.
[13:24.910 --> 13:27.350]  I still think that receptionist was checking you out.
[13:28.270 --> 13:29.650]  Okay, well, that might be so.
[13:29.950 --> 13:30.430]  Oh, ho.
[13:30.670 --> 13:34.590]  But in any event, in any event, you had an adventure going back.
[13:34.710 --> 13:35.510]  Now, you live in San Diego.
[13:35.510 --> 13:37.650]  You were here for a week and change.
[13:38.070 --> 13:38.790]  Yeah, like nine days.
[13:39.130 --> 13:44.670]  And you left on Monday morning out of Islip-McArthur Airport.
[13:44.810 --> 13:46.490]  That's a small airport on Long Island.
[13:47.030 --> 13:48.170]  Now, you had a very interesting...
[13:48.170 --> 13:53.170]  First of all, I had a very interesting thing happen to me because I went through the metal detector as well.
[13:53.750 --> 13:58.210]  And I had the same thing happen to me today in federal court in New York City.
[13:58.430 --> 13:58.990]  All right?
[13:59.230 --> 14:00.850]  I had an Altoids box.
[14:01.150 --> 14:02.650]  You know those Altoids boxes?
[14:02.870 --> 14:03.970]  The metallic things?
[14:04.170 --> 14:07.090]  What do you think happens when you go through that in a metal detector?
[14:08.070 --> 14:10.070]  I'm going to imagine all hell breaks loose.
[14:10.290 --> 14:11.230]  Yeah, you would think that, wouldn't you?
[14:11.450 --> 14:16.070]  I handed it to the person both at the airport and in the federal courthouse.
[14:16.290 --> 14:18.170]  I handed it, you know, in that little basket thing.
[14:18.250 --> 14:20.170]  You're supposed to put all your change and keys and things like that.
[14:20.350 --> 14:21.770]  And, you know, put it there.
[14:21.810 --> 14:23.490]  And then I went through the thing, you know, no problems.
[14:23.650 --> 14:26.610]  And I took the thing out of the basket and walked away.
[14:26.670 --> 14:27.450]  Both times.
[14:27.770 --> 14:28.330]  Both times.
[14:28.330 --> 14:30.030]  Nobody even bothered to open the Altoids box.
[14:30.190 --> 14:32.110]  You know what kind of thing you can hide inside an Altoids box?
[14:32.770 --> 14:34.430]  I imagine you can hide many things in an Altoids box.
[14:34.430 --> 14:36.010]  A lot more things in Altoids, I'll tell you that.
[14:36.050 --> 14:37.770]  So that's a major security hole right there.
[14:37.850 --> 14:39.850]  And that's what we're here to report is major security holes.
[14:39.970 --> 14:41.090]  And we just found another one.
[14:41.250 --> 14:47.450]  Would you prefer that they extract an Altoid, have it for themselves, and then perhaps hold it so they can analyze the powder inside?
[14:47.450 --> 14:50.210]  They make you turn your phone on and off, which I also think is stupid.
[14:50.210 --> 14:53.610]  Because all you need to do is invent a bomb that says, you know, Spring PCS on it.
[14:53.710 --> 14:54.410]  I've got a great story about that.
[14:54.410 --> 14:54.810]  Oh, okay.
[14:54.970 --> 14:56.390]  Or the same thing with a computer, too.
[14:56.590 --> 14:58.270]  The point is their security is insane.
[14:58.430 --> 14:58.810]  It's ridiculous.
[14:58.850 --> 14:59.710]  It doesn't work.
[15:00.250 --> 15:04.230]  You know, and people need to realize that it's, you know, a lot of it's a big waste of time.
[15:04.290 --> 15:06.650]  If they're serious about this kind of thing, they should be a little more careful.
[15:07.190 --> 15:09.010]  Anyway, Autojack had a real nightmare thing.
[15:09.230 --> 15:10.770]  What's the first thing that happened to you at Islip?
[15:11.910 --> 15:19.950]  Well, we went through, and they, you know, they decided they were going to randomly check me for, you know, for drugs or bombs or whatever.
[15:20.090 --> 15:22.250]  And they rubbed their little thing on my bag.
[15:22.370 --> 15:24.270]  What does that mean, they rubbed their little thing on your head?
[15:24.410 --> 15:26.950]  They have this little piece of fabric on, like, the end of a stick.
[15:27.110 --> 15:27.170]  Right.
[15:27.170 --> 15:30.550]  And they rubbed it on the bag, and they put it in some kind of machine, mystery machine.
[15:30.730 --> 15:32.110]  Isaac, you seem to know what this is.
[15:32.210 --> 15:34.050]  Yeah, if you had a laptop, they'd do the same thing.
[15:34.150 --> 15:40.490]  It basically is looking to collect various powderous materials and vapors and things like that.
[15:40.510 --> 15:42.070]  So they rubbed this thing on your bag?
[15:42.310 --> 15:42.550]  Right.
[15:42.790 --> 15:44.570]  When they used to have a laptop, they used to do the same thing.
[15:44.570 --> 15:44.690]  Yeah.
[15:44.870 --> 15:49.090]  They used to run it on the keyboard to see if you were typing, you know, you were touching with something and God knows what.
[15:49.130 --> 15:49.650]  Wait, wait, wait.
[15:49.730 --> 15:50.690]  They rub it on your keyboard.
[15:50.830 --> 15:51.590]  What does that accomplish?
[15:51.890 --> 15:59.230]  It collects the vapors and a chemical signature of that which is nearest to the laptop onto this little bag.
[15:59.230 --> 16:00.530]  In English, Isaac, English.
[16:00.730 --> 16:01.630]  What does that mean?
[16:01.650 --> 16:02.210]  It's a sniffer.
[16:02.910 --> 16:03.970]  What's it sniffing for?
[16:04.150 --> 16:05.150]  It's for explosives.
[16:05.630 --> 16:06.170]  It's for explosives.
[16:06.270 --> 16:06.390]  Wait.
[16:06.810 --> 16:07.350]  Bombs, drugs.
[16:07.490 --> 16:09.370]  Okay, how do explosives get on your fingertips?
[16:09.390 --> 16:09.890]  I've had...
[16:09.890 --> 16:11.150]  When you handle them.
[16:11.350 --> 16:16.130]  Okay, so if you handle explosives and type on a keyboard and use a laptop and go through the airport, they got you.
[16:16.250 --> 16:16.430]  Right.
[16:16.610 --> 16:18.590]  Or if you have the bomb actually in the laptop.
[16:19.530 --> 16:19.890]  Okay.
[16:19.890 --> 16:23.030]  I've had them swab down my backpack usually.
[16:23.250 --> 16:24.410]  Okay, so they swab down...
[16:24.410 --> 16:25.850]  Like the outside to see if there's residue.
[16:25.910 --> 16:27.650]  Isaac, is that the end of the story when they swab it down?
[16:27.790 --> 16:27.870]  Yeah.
[16:27.870 --> 16:28.510]  They just do it there?
[16:28.790 --> 16:29.090]  They swab it?
[16:29.290 --> 16:31.590]  It's not a tracking type of a device or anything like that?
[16:31.590 --> 16:31.850]  No, no, no.
[16:31.850 --> 16:36.930]  They're just looking to pick up signatures that they can put onto this little piece of fabric that they stuff in the machine for analysis.
[16:37.150 --> 16:38.690]  Okay, because there's a second part to this story.
[16:38.870 --> 16:39.530]  There's a second part.
[16:39.610 --> 16:40.270]  That was only the beginning of the story.
[16:40.270 --> 16:40.850]  That's only the beginning.
[16:41.010 --> 16:41.190]  Okay.
[16:41.250 --> 16:42.350]  Tell us the rest of the story.
[16:42.570 --> 16:51.350]  Okay, so I was dead tired after that, after you offered me an Altoid, you know, after explaining that you were completely surprised that you got your Altoids boxed.
[16:51.350 --> 16:52.470]  I was pretty shocked by that.
[16:54.150 --> 17:10.190]  You know, I get on the plane, and, you know, to my surprise, I was going to Baltimore for some ungoddened reason, but, you know, I went to Baltimore, then I went to Phoenix, got out, smoked a cigarette, came back, got on the other airplane, flew for an hour or whatever it was,
[17:10.710 --> 17:21.150]  and, you know, walked out of the airport after getting off the airplane, and these gentlemen walk up to me, and they're like, uh, sir, can we ask you some questions?
[17:21.330 --> 17:22.250]  This is outside of the airport.
[17:22.470 --> 17:25.010]  This is in the skywalk, or whatever the hell they call it.
[17:25.510 --> 17:27.250]  You, of course, say no and continue on your way.
[17:27.870 --> 17:29.030]  Yeah, but of course I didn't.
[17:29.270 --> 17:29.510]  Okay.
[17:29.790 --> 17:30.770]  Um, you know, I...
[17:31.510 --> 17:35.350]  They seem like nice gentlemen, and I was like, okay, fine, you can ask me some questions.
[17:35.510 --> 17:37.170]  Did they seem nice at that point, or...
[17:37.170 --> 17:39.110]  Yes, they seemed fairly nice.
[17:39.230 --> 17:40.590]  I didn't know why they wanted to ask me questions.
[17:40.630 --> 17:43.790]  They might give you a movie ticket at the end, you know, a survey or something, you know.
[17:44.230 --> 17:48.070]  So you thought there were, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses or something that just wanted to tell you about...
[17:48.070 --> 17:48.690]  Yeah, Scientologists.
[17:49.030 --> 17:51.050]  Somebody just wanted to share something with you.
[17:51.290 --> 18:07.930]  But then, you know, after I agreed to answer questions, they, you know, presented themselves as DEA agents, and, you know, one of them showed me a badge, like, rather quickly, and then, without hesitation, they grabbed my bag and started looking through it,
[18:08.430 --> 18:12.790]  you know, without asking me if they could look through it or anything, and they were like, we're going to look through your bag.
[18:12.790 --> 18:15.250]  And I was like, okay, fine, they're going to look through my leg.
[18:15.370 --> 18:16.030]  I was okay with that.
[18:16.670 --> 18:20.550]  And then the other guy, like, starts patting me down, and they're asking me all these questions.
[18:20.730 --> 18:22.950]  And meanwhile, I'm getting extremely nervous.
[18:23.230 --> 18:27.730]  You know, I mean, I have some neuroses that I would rather not talk about right now.
[18:27.810 --> 18:32.010]  But, you know, it causes me to have panic attacks and stuff like that.
[18:32.150 --> 18:33.610]  Okay, and this kind of thing probably doesn't help.
[18:33.910 --> 18:34.730]  Right, exactly.
[18:35.450 --> 18:41.670]  So for about 30 to 45 minutes, these guys are, like, harassing me and, you know, asking me all these questions.
[18:41.670 --> 18:44.310]  They asked me how much money I had on me, like, four times.
[18:44.770 --> 18:45.890]  Like, for no reason.
[18:46.050 --> 18:47.010]  I have no idea.
[18:47.410 --> 18:48.490]  They went through my wallet.
[18:48.630 --> 18:49.630]  They went through everything.
[18:50.190 --> 18:55.990]  And, you know, after, you know, like five or six minutes of this going on, I was like, isn't this a little bit against my rights?
[18:56.170 --> 18:58.410]  And they clearly said no.
[18:58.850 --> 19:00.150]  And I was like, okay.
[19:00.930 --> 19:06.350]  And then after this had gone on, they finally let me go.
[19:06.630 --> 19:08.770]  And, you know, I had been completely rattled.
[19:08.770 --> 19:12.750]  I have no idea why it happened or, you know, why they pegged me.
[19:14.630 --> 19:15.410]  And I don't know.
[19:15.650 --> 19:16.690]  I don't know what to do about that.
[19:16.710 --> 19:17.950]  Do you think you look like a drug dealer?
[19:18.830 --> 19:19.390]  Not necessarily.
[19:19.630 --> 19:20.990]  I mean, what does a drug dealer look like?
[19:21.130 --> 19:21.850]  That's a good question.
[19:21.990 --> 19:23.170]  What does a drug dealer look like?
[19:23.290 --> 19:26.590]  What gives them the right to do this?
[19:26.670 --> 19:30.810]  I mean, it was my impression that you were not forced to submit to her search.
[19:30.910 --> 19:35.550]  I mean, yeah, they asked you if they could talk to you, but they did not ask you if they could search your bags.
[19:35.550 --> 19:37.690]  And then they searched your person on top of that.
[19:37.870 --> 19:39.510]  Yeah, they went through every pocket of my body.
[19:39.850 --> 19:41.590]  In fact, they looked at my boots.
[19:41.870 --> 19:45.110]  And, you know, I was like, what, you want me to take off my boots, too?
[19:45.570 --> 19:46.790]  And they're like, uh, nah.
[19:48.110 --> 19:50.250]  You want to smell something, you're going in those boots.
[19:50.430 --> 19:51.710]  They really gave you a break there.
[19:51.990 --> 19:52.210]  Yeah.
[19:52.370 --> 19:55.030]  You know, I'm used to being hassled sometimes by customs.
[19:55.030 --> 19:58.130]  I've talked about it on the air, you know, coming in from other countries.
[19:58.270 --> 20:01.810]  But on a domestic flight, we now have DEA agents searching our persons.
[20:02.110 --> 20:05.310]  Coming home to my hometown, you know, I mean, this is like the welcoming committee.
[20:06.510 --> 20:07.450]  That's not right.
[20:07.650 --> 20:10.790]  I think we might have some cause to look into this a little further.
[20:11.070 --> 20:11.250]  Yeah.
[20:11.410 --> 20:15.990]  And, you know, I invite listeners and anybody else out there who might have some knowledge on this kind of a thing.
[20:16.110 --> 20:20.230]  My first instinct says that it's probably not related to the check at MacArthur.
[20:20.510 --> 20:21.590]  I don't think it was.
[20:21.590 --> 20:25.470]  Yeah, and that you just fit the description of someone they were looking for at that airport.
[20:25.910 --> 20:36.050]  Well, they also said, and I think, Artojack, you told me this, is that there's some kind of a drug trafficking ring that goes, that Islip supplies San Diego or something like that?
[20:36.250 --> 20:42.750]  Yeah, you know, which is rather strange seeing as how we live, like, right next to the Tijuana border, you know, from Mexico.
[20:42.970 --> 20:44.870]  I would think San Diego would be supplying Islip.
[20:44.990 --> 20:45.890]  Yeah, it wouldn't be the other way around.
[20:46.190 --> 20:47.230]  It should be the other way around.
[20:49.650 --> 20:52.970]  I don't know if we mentioned this a couple weeks ago, but Amtrak.
[20:53.190 --> 21:02.990]  Now, whenever you buy an Amtrak ticket to take the train wherever, they cross-reference that automatically with the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Agency's database.
[21:03.310 --> 21:07.450]  So anytime you buy an Amtrak ticket, they can find out.
[21:07.450 --> 21:13.230]  And if they manage to seize property or drugs, Amtrak police gets a percentage of the revenue.
[21:13.350 --> 21:13.770]  All right, wait a minute.
[21:13.890 --> 21:14.410]  Hold on a second.
[21:14.410 --> 21:18.330]  Now, when you buy a ticket, first of all, you're not required to show ID to buy a ticket.
[21:18.370 --> 21:19.250]  So how do they pull that off?
[21:19.770 --> 21:20.690]  They get your name?
[21:20.850 --> 21:21.250]  I don't know.
[21:21.670 --> 21:27.730]  Well, if you pay with a credit card, they just take your name off the credit card.
[21:27.910 --> 21:28.970]  Yeah, but there's only a name.
[21:28.990 --> 21:30.010]  Or they ask your name and it goes on the ticket.
[21:30.010 --> 21:30.990]  It's only with John Smith.
[21:30.990 --> 21:32.430]  How many of them are there, you know?
[21:32.910 --> 21:33.870]  So what happens then?
[21:34.290 --> 21:36.250]  Amtrak police come running through and start searching you?
[21:36.310 --> 21:37.530]  No, the DEA does.
[21:37.750 --> 21:38.510]  It's just...
[21:38.510 --> 21:40.090]  This DEA, they're everywhere, aren't they?
[21:40.090 --> 21:45.430]  Amtrak gives the DEA access to their passenger manifests, basically.
[21:45.990 --> 21:51.990]  And so they have their list of known drug dealers or traffickers or what have you.
[21:52.270 --> 21:54.770]  Suspicious ticket-buying patterns or whatever.
[21:55.130 --> 22:01.730]  Which, quite honestly, is no different than the programs that various government agencies maintain with the airline industries.
[22:02.410 --> 22:08.090]  Well, it is different in that the DEA has direct access to Amtrak's computer systems.
[22:08.410 --> 22:09.110]  Direct access.
[22:09.230 --> 22:11.090]  That's a pretty scary thing right there.
[22:11.650 --> 22:17.630]  AutoJack, you know, I'm really sorry it's happened to you, especially since you were leaving here on the way to there.
[22:18.670 --> 22:30.090]  But I would like to invite listeners to email us, OTH, at 2600.com, or mail us, off the hook, care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 10005, if you have any more details.
[22:30.090 --> 22:31.310]  Or call in later on in the show.
[22:31.350 --> 22:37.790]  Hopefully we'll have time to take some phone calls if you have any advice or experiences or things, other stories.
[22:38.570 --> 22:41.670]  But it really is a shocking thing and a very disturbing thing, too.
[22:41.670 --> 22:47.070]  I mean, I know the feeling that I had when this happened to me with customs, but actually not to leave the country and be...
[22:47.070 --> 22:49.150]  I mean, this could happen to anybody in the street now, it seems.
[22:49.710 --> 22:51.390]  It's a really...
[22:51.390 --> 22:52.630]  It's not a good way to...
[22:52.630 --> 22:54.150]  Yeah, it's not a good way to live.
[22:55.330 --> 22:57.730]  Well, that's not our only dealings with the federal government.
[22:57.870 --> 22:58.850]  We had a big one today.
[22:59.890 --> 23:04.030]  With the... in federal court, we had the appeal.
[23:04.250 --> 23:05.910]  We heard the appeal today.
[23:06.650 --> 23:09.250]  And, well, a bunch of us were there.
[23:09.250 --> 23:10.550]  In fact, just about everybody was there.
[23:10.690 --> 23:12.090]  Everybody in this room was there, except you, Isaac.
[23:12.210 --> 23:12.610]  You weren't there.
[23:12.810 --> 23:13.770]  I don't mean to put you on the spot.
[23:13.890 --> 23:15.630]  I'm just stating a fact, you know, you weren't there.
[23:15.790 --> 23:19.730]  I was otherwise occupied, and I'll probably be very under...
[23:19.730 --> 23:20.770]  Well, regardless, it doesn't matter.
[23:21.190 --> 23:23.530]  I'm going to be very busy this entire week, which really sucks.
[23:23.650 --> 23:24.250]  You need plane tickets?
[23:24.570 --> 23:25.210]  I don't need plane tickets.
[23:25.210 --> 23:25.770]  Can I get out of the country?
[23:25.990 --> 23:26.390]  No, no, no.
[23:26.390 --> 23:28.570]  All right, well, we can talk later.
[23:29.090 --> 23:29.730]  Anyway, we...
[23:29.730 --> 23:30.410]  I'd rather swim.
[23:30.590 --> 23:33.710]  The case was heard today in front of a federal...
[23:34.390 --> 23:37.630]  Well, three-judge panel, you know, tribunal, I guess.
[23:37.790 --> 23:38.750]  Second District of Pellicourt.
[23:38.750 --> 23:40.770]  Yeah, and it was...
[23:40.770 --> 23:42.310]  We packed the place.
[23:42.410 --> 23:43.810]  We had about 150 people in there.
[23:44.010 --> 23:51.070]  We had to sit through about five other cases beforehand, which weren't of interest to many more than the people who were there arguing them.
[23:51.810 --> 23:53.850]  But basically, this is the DECSS case.
[23:53.990 --> 23:59.310]  This is the appeal of Judge Kaplan's ruling last August, where we lost.
[23:59.510 --> 24:02.410]  We lost the case, but we came back with the appeal today.
[24:04.150 --> 24:10.650]  Dean Sullivan from Stanford Law School was the argueee in our favor.
[24:10.870 --> 24:13.450]  And she did a great job as far as I'm concerned.
[24:13.530 --> 24:13.950]  What do you think, Mac?
[24:14.030 --> 24:16.870]  Do you think she came through with flying colors?
[24:17.170 --> 24:18.830]  I thought she did fantastic.
[24:20.270 --> 24:21.290]  Alex, you were there, too.
[24:21.450 --> 24:23.210]  Yeah, I think it was a good choice.
[24:24.050 --> 24:26.470]  She really had a great presence in the courtroom.
[24:26.470 --> 24:27.610]  She spoke very well.
[24:27.850 --> 24:29.390]  She brought up a lot of good issues.
[24:30.170 --> 24:31.330]  Yeah, she did wonderfully.
[24:31.750 --> 24:34.490]  We've got three people from the Electronic Frontier Foundation here.
[24:34.590 --> 24:36.570]  They're the people who made this all possible.
[24:37.530 --> 24:43.190]  Because had we simply been served with this lawsuit back in...
[24:43.190 --> 24:44.790]  What was it, January of 2000?
[24:44.910 --> 24:45.910]  Is that when it all started?
[24:45.930 --> 24:51.710]  We posted the program in November of 1999, and the MPAA came after us in January of 2000.
[24:52.410 --> 24:59.070]  And if we had just been left to our own devices, well, that would have lasted about three minutes before we would have been bankrupted by the whole thing.
[24:59.310 --> 25:04.270]  That's how the legal system works, unfortunately, as I'm sure Bernie asks, whoever he is, can tell.
[25:04.690 --> 25:05.330]  Right, Bernie?
[25:05.590 --> 25:07.070]  That's $60,000 later.
[25:07.410 --> 25:07.610]  Yeah.
[25:09.010 --> 25:12.970]  So EFF was there to help with this case.
[25:12.970 --> 25:14.610]  They recognized the importance of it.
[25:14.690 --> 25:23.590]  And with us today are Cindy Cohn, the legal director of EFF, and John Gilmore and Robin Gross all together.
[25:24.070 --> 25:26.610]  I want to thank you guys for all the support you've shown.
[25:26.910 --> 25:32.150]  And hopefully people will show support for you guys as well, because there are going to be more cases like this in the future, right?
[25:33.350 --> 25:33.790]  Absolutely.
[25:35.290 --> 25:35.730]  Absolutely.
[25:35.730 --> 25:44.250]  I think that hopefully we'll be successful in this case, but the Digital Millennium Copyright Act is not going to go away even if we win this case.
[25:44.690 --> 25:46.810]  I think this is a long, protracted battle.
[25:47.570 --> 25:52.510]  But the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, now, how does such a thing happen?
[25:52.670 --> 25:53.290]  How did it...
[25:53.290 --> 25:56.590]  I mean, you guys must have been around fighting this when it was happening.
[25:57.470 --> 25:59.770]  You know, it was voted on unanimously.
[26:00.070 --> 26:01.830]  By a voice vote, there's no record of it.
[26:02.590 --> 26:07.890]  It's this horrible legislation that demonizes all these legitimate uses of technology.
[26:08.070 --> 26:08.470]  Wait a second.
[26:08.470 --> 26:11.490]  If it was a unanimous vote, why would the voice...
[26:11.490 --> 26:12.810]  why would a record make a difference?
[26:12.970 --> 26:13.530]  Everyone did.
[26:13.530 --> 26:17.870]  Yeah, I know, but there's no record saying this senator, this congressman voted for it.
[26:17.970 --> 26:19.150]  But it's not on paper.
[26:19.410 --> 26:19.930]  Name a senator.
[26:20.070 --> 26:20.770]  He voted for it.
[26:20.810 --> 26:21.610]  Well, yes, we know that.
[26:21.630 --> 26:24.550]  But there's no piece of paper that says yes, you know, as opposed to no, whatever.
[26:24.910 --> 26:27.330]  It just was, you know, the eyes have it and that's it.
[26:27.490 --> 26:30.830]  You know, someone can claim that they didn't vote for it, but they were speaking very low.
[26:30.830 --> 26:35.090]  So, you know, but there's no definitive piece of paper that says they voted for it.
[26:35.370 --> 26:35.470]  Okay.
[26:35.490 --> 26:37.790]  I'm sure, you know, yeah, it's the same basic thing.
[26:37.970 --> 26:38.650]  Same basic thing.
[26:39.170 --> 26:39.290]  Yeah.
[26:40.150 --> 26:40.330]  John?
[26:40.330 --> 26:55.030]  I think it passed on the consent calendar, which is to say, anytime there's a bill that nobody has any objection to, they put it on this calendar, and then once every morning, they do a vote that everybody votes for that whole calendar.
[26:55.310 --> 27:06.310]  And the deal is, any single representative senator, you know, whichever half you're in, can say, I put a hold on that bill, it won't go on the consent calendar, but none of them did at that point.
[27:06.610 --> 27:10.830]  It was actually argued back and forth and up and down in a whole pile of different committees.
[27:11.410 --> 27:13.350]  And lots of folks came out against it.
[27:13.510 --> 27:15.010]  Librarians came out against it.
[27:15.890 --> 27:18.170]  Computer researchers came out against it.
[27:19.430 --> 27:25.330]  There was a letter from 62 different law professors coming out against it.
[27:25.470 --> 27:27.850]  But not a single congressman came out against it.
[27:28.010 --> 27:29.810]  No, some congressmen did come out.
[27:30.090 --> 27:33.690]  And even introduced alternative versions that were better.
[27:34.070 --> 27:50.570]  But the catch was the industry negotiators basically started adding little narrow exceptions to their bill and picking off the interest groups one by one, saying, okay, computer researchers will give you an exemption.
[27:50.750 --> 28:00.050]  If you're a legitimate computer researcher working in an accredited university, publishing in academic journals, then, okay, then we won't prosecute you.
[28:00.170 --> 28:02.910]  Everybody else, all those guys out on 2600 land.
[28:04.190 --> 28:04.670]  No.
[28:04.970 --> 28:05.810]  And did that work?
[28:05.910 --> 28:07.390]  Did that actually satisfy those people?
[28:07.550 --> 28:10.230]  Those people were dumb enough to sign up for that.
[28:11.150 --> 28:11.630]  Librarian.
[28:11.770 --> 28:12.850]  It didn't satisfy librarians.
[28:13.110 --> 28:14.350]  They wouldn't fall for that.
[28:14.450 --> 28:16.970]  There were people who were opposed to it at the very end.
[28:16.970 --> 28:26.450]  But, you know, the way it works is once the coalition starts falling apart, you know, once you lose so many votes that you're going to lose it and everybody kind of starts bailing.
[28:27.730 --> 28:35.750]  But, you know, Attorney General Ashcroft was actually one of the people who early on in the DMCA debate spoke out against it.
[28:35.970 --> 28:41.490]  And, you know, today, you know, we had to face a representative from his office defending it.
[28:42.310 --> 28:43.330]  What do you think of that?
[28:43.430 --> 28:45.970]  I mean, that guy had some pretty interesting analogies.
[28:46.090 --> 28:54.010]  I think he related the act of linking to taking a shuttle bus to pick up implements of crime or something like that.
[28:54.050 --> 28:56.410]  What was he trying to say?
[28:56.510 --> 28:59.110]  Yeah, he also said that DCSS was like a crowbar.
[28:59.550 --> 29:00.990]  Yeah, digital crowbar.
[29:01.030 --> 29:02.290]  And don't forget what he opened with.
[29:02.370 --> 29:02.630]  Rips things.
[29:03.110 --> 29:03.310]  Uh-huh.
[29:04.410 --> 29:05.870]  Ripping into DVDs.
[29:06.170 --> 29:07.190]  Digital crowbar.
[29:07.310 --> 29:19.530]  But that actually, I think, I think that the dean did a very good job of pointing out that even if you accept it as a digital crowbar, you know, we don't make crowbars illegal in this country because some people might misuse them.
[29:19.550 --> 29:27.650]  And people can still buy crowbars and people can still sell crowbars because we recognize that crowbars have really good uses as well as really bad uses.
[29:27.810 --> 29:38.950]  And so even if you buy the idea that it's a digital crowbar, which we don't because it's speech, that fails even on its own merits in terms of, you know, do we criminalize it?
[29:39.010 --> 29:40.550]  We don't make crowbars illegal in this country.
[29:40.550 --> 29:40.590]  Right.
[29:40.790 --> 29:48.910]  Well, couldn't you say the computer that you use to turn on to read the E-C-S-S could also be part of that whole chain of crimes and that that has to be made illegal, too?
[29:49.090 --> 30:00.890]  I think once you start going down the road where you're criminalizing technology because people might misuse it, it's very hard to then draw the line and say, oh, well, we'll criminalize this, but not that, but not this, because once you adopt that logic,
[30:00.950 --> 30:01.770]  you're exactly right.
[30:01.870 --> 30:03.210]  I mean, where do you stop?
[30:03.210 --> 30:04.630]  It's a very slippery slope.
[30:04.870 --> 30:07.030]  Well, I mean, are the laws enough right now?
[30:07.170 --> 30:14.010]  Do we have laws that will criminalize the things that they're concerned about, namely copying and pirating DVDs?
[30:14.570 --> 30:14.930]  Sure.
[30:15.390 --> 30:16.890]  Copyright infringement is illegal.
[30:17.150 --> 30:18.290]  Piracy is illegal.
[30:18.510 --> 30:19.370]  So why isn't that enough?
[30:19.870 --> 30:25.390]  Well, they claimed, and again, the last thing I would ever do is say that they're right in this claim.
[30:25.390 --> 30:45.910]  They claim that that wasn't sufficient, that in this age of the Internet, where you can make perfect digital copies of movies or music, and they made a lot of, you know, they called it the Napsterization of the movie industry, that the old tools of simply being able to prosecute the people who actually do the illegal activity of,
[30:46.030 --> 30:49.250]  you know, making illegal copies just aren't sufficient to protect them.
[30:49.290 --> 31:03.730]  So they need this extra protection, which is the access controls and the dissemination controls that are the parts of the Digital Money and Copyright Act that are, you know, that are being charged against 2600 Magazine and in you.
[31:04.090 --> 31:04.370]  Mm-hmm.
[31:04.490 --> 31:05.690]  I have a minor point.
[31:05.950 --> 31:17.830]  Why is it that the ability to make a perfect copy, as opposed to, say, a photostatic reproduction or something ridiculous like that, is suddenly such an amazing issue so far as the law is concerned?
[31:18.790 --> 31:22.190]  Well, I think there's a cynical answer and there's a not-so-cynical answer.
[31:22.190 --> 31:27.770]  I think the cynical answer is it gives them an excuse to get something they've wanted all along and not been able to get in other technologies.
[31:28.090 --> 31:28.290]  Mm-hmm.
[31:28.410 --> 31:46.790]  I think the not-so-cynical answer is that in terms of market, they always had, in situations where the subsequent copies are of lesser quality, they had a market advantage because they were marketing a superior product and that they would lose that marketing edge when everybody could make,
[31:46.950 --> 31:50.850]  when they're not selling something that's any better than what other people could buy.
[31:50.850 --> 31:54.150]  I mean, you know, I've bought, you know, well, I would...
[31:54.150 --> 32:01.470]  I know people who have bought bootleg tapes, say, of certain things in foreign countries and they're lousy, you know.
[32:01.530 --> 32:01.630]  Yeah.
[32:01.750 --> 32:04.570]  And so there is a, you know, there's a...
[32:04.570 --> 32:10.150]  I've, you know, because I care about the quality of the music I listen to, I will actually shell out for the CD.
[32:10.570 --> 32:14.530]  In fact, I'll shell out for the CD over the MP3 because I can tell the difference.
[32:14.830 --> 32:15.350]  One thing that...
[32:15.350 --> 32:16.630]  They'll lose that edge.
[32:16.630 --> 32:21.450]  One thing the judge brought up a couple of times was the Home Recording Act.
[32:21.670 --> 32:22.430]  Audio Home Recording Act.
[32:22.430 --> 32:23.310]  Audio Home Recording Act.
[32:23.550 --> 32:29.130]  And how it's possible for someone to make one perfect copy on that tape.
[32:29.490 --> 32:33.650]  And they can make that one perfect copy and somehow that isn't an issue.
[32:33.750 --> 32:40.170]  He seemed very interested in finding out why that's okay, but they can't be a similar thing for DVDs.
[32:40.170 --> 32:44.790]  Yeah, and it was one of the arguments that the dean raised was that...
[32:45.290 --> 32:48.550]  And this is a function of the way First Amendment law works.
[32:48.650 --> 32:57.330]  The First Amendment law says that before you restrain people from speaking, you've got to make sure there's no other way to get at the problem you're trying to get at.
[32:57.690 --> 33:06.690]  And in this case, you know, before you completely ban 26 Magazine from disseminating this technology, you've got to figure out if there's no other way to prevent copyright infringement.
[33:06.690 --> 33:22.410]  And one of the suggestions we said was, you know, the way that they went after the Audio Home Recording Act and the way that it addresses DAT technology is certainly, while it's not something that we at the EFF think is a great idea, it's certainly less restrictive than what they did in 1201.
[33:22.670 --> 33:31.070]  So they wanted... I mean, I think that the fact that they jumped on that example means that they are listening to us when we say, you know, Congress didn't have to do that.
[33:31.190 --> 33:32.410]  Congress could have done something less.
[33:32.410 --> 33:35.490]  And that's why they really asked, you know, well, how would that work?
[33:35.510 --> 33:36.830]  And could that have worked for movies?
[33:36.930 --> 33:41.390]  Is there some reason why it couldn't have worked for movies in the way that it worked for DATS?
[33:41.390 --> 33:45.610]  And, of course, the answer, technologically, I think, is there is no particular difference.
[33:45.630 --> 33:57.390]  It's just that the movie studios were able to get something, you know, get something better when they went back for the DMCA that they didn't get when they were in 1992 when they were getting the Audio Home Recording Act.
[33:58.030 --> 34:02.170]  And, of course, this is something also that will extend to television with digital television in the future.
[34:02.550 --> 34:07.450]  I was doing a TV thing today, in fact, where I was telling the people, hey, you know, you guys are next.
[34:08.570 --> 34:16.030]  It will someday be possible, if not likely, that you will not be able to tape a TV program unless you have a license to do that.
[34:16.090 --> 34:18.130]  You won't be able to view it unless you have a license to view it.
[34:18.810 --> 34:25.350]  And certain things simply will not be viewable in certain areas of the country ever if they decide that's how they want to do it.
[34:25.430 --> 34:27.130]  So this is not just limited to DVDs.
[34:27.190 --> 34:27.850]  No, not at all.
[34:27.850 --> 34:33.290]  And, in fact, another person who came up to talk to me after the hearing said that she was very involved in digital books, e-books.
[34:33.890 --> 34:36.850]  And she said, you know, is there any difference for e-books?
[34:36.950 --> 34:38.330]  And the answer is no, not at all.
[34:38.590 --> 34:49.230]  1201 says if you wrap some kind of copyright-protected work up in a digital wrapper, breaking into that wrapper or selling technologies that would break into that wrapper is itself illegal.
[34:49.310 --> 34:52.050]  So e-books, it's going to be the same issue.
[34:52.990 --> 34:57.070]  So what was your impression of the judges' questions?
[34:57.190 --> 34:58.170]  Do you think they were fair?
[34:58.470 --> 35:00.710]  They asked a lot of questions of Dean Sullivan.
[35:01.710 --> 35:03.570]  And sometimes they seemed a bit combative.
[35:04.370 --> 35:08.690]  In fact, it was kind of weird because, you know, I'm sitting there and Dean Sullivan is arguing for me.
[35:08.950 --> 35:13.810]  And I have, you know, the three judges battling her with questions.
[35:13.970 --> 35:17.310]  Then the guy from the government comes up and completely attacks us.
[35:17.310 --> 35:20.670]  And the guy from the NPA, she was the only person on our side in that courtroom, it seemed.
[35:21.230 --> 35:22.950]  Am I being a little overdramatic there?
[35:23.050 --> 35:32.910]  Well, I think that the judges, while the judges definitely were asking her some very aggressive questions, I think they asked some pretty aggressive questions of the other sides, too.
[35:33.310 --> 35:42.450]  You know, where they're going to come out, I mean, believe me, there's no, there's nothing more risky than trying to predict how a federal court's going to come out based upon the oral argument.
[35:42.590 --> 35:44.530]  And I would never even presume to go there.
[35:44.670 --> 35:49.610]  And anybody who tells you that they can predict based upon the way the court listened to the arguments is lying.
[35:51.170 --> 35:52.470]  But in any...
[35:52.470 --> 35:55.910]  But, you know, they certainly did ask her some aggressive questions.
[35:56.210 --> 35:57.230]  I mean, this is a hard case.
[35:57.330 --> 35:58.470]  It's always been a hard case.
[35:58.910 --> 36:00.150]  I believe we're right.
[36:00.310 --> 36:04.090]  But she certainly, you know, she certainly had to battle a bit out there.
[36:04.190 --> 36:06.290]  But I think, you know, the whole conversation...
[36:06.290 --> 36:06.790]  She had a whole...
[36:06.790 --> 36:16.270]  They had a whole conversation with the government's attorney about the linking question, where the judge said, well, what if, you know, what if somebody were to publish...
[36:16.270 --> 36:23.110]  What if the New York Times were to publish a list of bookstores where you could get obscene or contraband materials?
[36:23.670 --> 36:24.630]  Would that...
[36:24.630 --> 36:27.190]  You know, could you prosecute the New York Times if they did that?
[36:27.610 --> 36:31.490]  You know, obviously with the analogy to the list of addresses being what links are.
[36:32.590 --> 36:35.730]  And the government's attorney said, well, maybe you could.
[36:35.730 --> 36:37.690]  And I didn't think the judge bought that.
[36:37.710 --> 36:39.530]  I think that he really definitely...
[36:39.530 --> 36:40.150]  I hope he didn't.
[36:40.270 --> 36:41.270]  Yeah, I hope he didn't either.
[36:41.450 --> 36:50.010]  But, I mean, that, to me, is an example of how, you know, they did give Dean Sullivan a hard time, but they gave some hard times to both of the other attorneys as well, I think.
[36:50.310 --> 36:51.810]  But that's the nature of the environment.
[36:51.990 --> 36:55.670]  I mean, it's not supposed to be everyone gathers around the campfire and sings kumbaya.
[36:55.670 --> 37:03.930]  But, yeah, it's the forum for the aggressive pursuit of the truth and battling different sides of the argument is what it's all about.
[37:05.390 --> 37:09.350]  And, actually, I think the judges showed a lot of interest.
[37:09.770 --> 37:10.910]  They really...
[37:11.470 --> 37:16.750]  It was absolutely clear they had read the briefs, they understood the issues, and they were asking the hard questions.
[37:16.750 --> 37:24.810]  They really cared about what our answers were as opposed to, oh, this is another case to snooze through, insurance company one suing insurance company two.
[37:24.810 --> 37:25.950]  Those were boring cases.
[37:26.270 --> 37:28.070]  How'd they ever make it to the appellate court?
[37:29.690 --> 37:35.250]  Yeah, we had to sit through all that, but everybody's ears perked up when we got to the ECSS case.
[37:35.650 --> 37:40.430]  Well, one of those cases beforehand, there was ten years of a guy's life in prison on the line.
[37:40.590 --> 37:41.170]  That's true.
[37:41.590 --> 37:42.630]  Well, ten more years.
[37:42.630 --> 37:46.090]  I think he was going away for quite a bit of time, but they were arguing whether...
[37:46.090 --> 37:51.270]  Twenty years, and it might have been 30 if his wife didn't turn over a house.
[37:51.410 --> 37:51.650]  Uh-huh.
[37:52.010 --> 37:53.930]  If the wife didn't give the house to the government.
[37:54.810 --> 37:58.390]  But she didn't know that he got it through fraud, and that was the whole bit.
[37:58.550 --> 37:59.190]  All right, well, that's a topic for another...
[37:59.190 --> 37:59.710]  Why do we care?
[38:00.830 --> 38:02.750]  Let them do a radio show about it, but...
[38:02.750 --> 38:03.590]  Good luck to them.
[38:03.770 --> 38:04.030]  Yes.
[38:04.530 --> 38:08.770]  All right, well, we're here with Cindy Kong from the EFF, also John Gilmore and Robin Gross.
[38:08.870 --> 38:09.530]  Robin, we haven't heard from you.
[38:09.590 --> 38:11.910]  What are your impressions of this compared to what happened over the summer?
[38:12.710 --> 38:23.470]  Well, I was really pleased with the hearing today and Dean Sullivan's argument, and I thought the judges asked very tough questions to both sides.
[38:23.610 --> 38:26.890]  I was really pleased that they brought out issues about the public domain.
[38:26.890 --> 38:44.170]  I thought that was one thing that hadn't been briefed as extensively as it could have, but the judges asking particularly the MPAA questions about how are people supposed to be able to get access to public domain works if the tools to decrypt them are illegal,
[38:44.190 --> 38:47.750]  and they really didn't have a very good answer for that because there really isn't one.
[38:49.170 --> 38:59.670]  Yeah, those technical issues where they were hit directly, they did seem to stumble on those, never gave a straight answer as to just, yeah, how is somebody supposed to be able to do this if you won't let them?
[38:59.750 --> 39:09.910]  You know, if the copyright supposedly says that you can't view something, there must be, you know, some way of doing it, but no, they didn't have an answer for that.
[39:10.150 --> 39:12.510]  Well, it's not even all that technical an issue.
[39:12.670 --> 39:20.990]  The question is copyright lasts for some number of years, you know, maybe 90 years now if it's corporate or if it's the life of the author plus...
[39:20.990 --> 39:21.710]  Plus 70.
[39:21.950 --> 39:22.810]  70, yeah.
[39:23.050 --> 39:23.230]  Right.
[39:23.390 --> 39:26.730]  When that period is up, the public gets full rights to that work.
[39:26.850 --> 39:27.950]  It goes into the public domain.
[39:28.110 --> 39:29.950]  Except that period keeps getting extended.
[39:30.310 --> 39:30.470]  Yeah.
[39:30.470 --> 39:48.810]  Well, but even assuming we could stop Congress from continually extending it in response to campaign contributions, if the material that is going out there is on a DVD, it's illegal to have a device that'll play it, that'll let you get copies of it afterward.
[39:49.050 --> 39:50.650]  I came up with an interesting thing.
[39:50.710 --> 39:53.170]  I was talking to one of the reporters and I came up with this analogy.
[39:53.170 --> 39:54.810]  Tell me if you think this is valid.
[39:54.990 --> 39:56.670]  But basically, you know the film Pulp Fiction?
[39:56.790 --> 39:57.510]  We've all seen it, right?
[39:57.850 --> 40:00.030]  It's a film that is told out of sequence.
[40:00.030 --> 40:01.850]  It's told in kind of a bizarre manner.
[40:02.090 --> 40:04.970]  You know, we have John Travolta being alive and he's dead and he's alive again.
[40:05.170 --> 40:06.390]  You know, and kind of confusing.
[40:06.630 --> 40:09.670]  You also have this other film that just came out called Memento.
[40:09.810 --> 40:10.210]  Great film.
[40:10.290 --> 40:11.070]  I suggest people see it.
[40:11.130 --> 40:15.790]  It's about somebody who has short-term memory loss and you learn backwards.
[40:15.790 --> 40:23.590]  You learn how the film, how the plot is unraveling by simply going back a few minutes or hours each time and learning a little bit more.
[40:23.810 --> 40:36.390]  Okay, let's say I've got the DVD of that and I'd like, as a project for myself, nobody else, just myself, I'd like to assemble that in a different order so I can see it in real time and see how the plot unfolds in real time.
[40:36.450 --> 40:38.210]  Pulp Fiction in real time, kind of a cool thing.
[40:38.530 --> 40:43.650]  Let's say that it's not out on videotape because eventually things will stop coming out on videotape.
[40:43.850 --> 40:44.610]  How do I do it?
[40:45.490 --> 40:46.070]  You don't.
[40:46.690 --> 40:47.450]  Yeah, I don't.
[40:47.510 --> 40:47.770]  That's right.
[40:47.850 --> 40:51.270]  I have to hold a camcorder up to it or something and figure out a way to do it that way.
[40:51.270 --> 40:52.750]  You're bypassing the access device.
[40:52.750 --> 40:53.950]  You can't do that either.
[40:54.350 --> 41:06.090]  Well, in fact, the next step will be, in the DMCA, they actually put in a requirement that new video recorders have circuitry that will look for macrovision and turn off the ability to record.
[41:06.830 --> 41:15.970]  And the next generation, I mean, next time they push a law through Congress, it'll be video cameras and tape recorders are going to have to look for a watermark.
[41:15.970 --> 41:27.250]  And if they see a watermark in the image or if they hear a watermark in the audio, then they'll turn off the ability to record because you must be stealing a copyrighted program.
[41:27.310 --> 41:31.030]  Let's not forget that this will push the price of a consumer device up a few hundred dollars.
[41:31.270 --> 41:34.050]  Yeah, and you'll have to pay for all this enhanced technology too.
[41:34.250 --> 41:42.090]  So basically you're saying if you're talking to somebody and the music is playing in the background and that's somebody's copyrighted song, what, the whole thing will just stop working?
[41:42.090 --> 41:47.590]  It'll just, yeah, yeah, it'll all, it'll be like, you know, Nixon's office tape, so it'll just be a blank space on it.
[41:49.050 --> 41:50.770]  This is, this is a nightmare, folks.
[41:50.890 --> 41:53.430]  This is what happens when you let corporate America make the rules.
[41:53.650 --> 41:57.490]  And unfortunately with the current state of affairs, that's, that's how things seem to be working out.
[41:57.930 --> 41:58.490]  We're here...
[41:58.490 --> 42:11.830]  Or you'll, or you'll wind up where it's cheaper to get one that has the implant in it and then people who can't afford to get their own player or play it through a computer that can decode it will be the only ones who are able to make use.
[42:12.090 --> 42:15.830]  We're here with Cindy Cohn, John Gilmore, Robin Gross of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[42:16.630 --> 42:22.430]  And also spread out throughout the studio is Alex and Isaac, Mackie, Bernie S.
[42:22.890 --> 42:23.570]  Am I leaving out anybody?
[42:23.950 --> 42:25.530]  Oh, yes, Mike over there on the floor.
[42:26.510 --> 42:28.630]  And Artojack over there in San Diego on the phone.
[42:28.870 --> 42:28.970]  Yep.
[42:29.250 --> 42:30.570]  DA leaving you alone, hopefully.
[42:31.490 --> 42:32.810]  All right, we're going to take some phone calls.
[42:32.870 --> 42:34.690]  212-209-2900.
[42:35.690 --> 42:39.690]  If you're outside of the country, of course, your country code is 1.
[42:40.270 --> 42:43.190]  Does anyone else have any impressions on what happened today?
[42:44.350 --> 42:45.610]  I think it went really well.
[42:45.850 --> 42:47.190]  I'm looking forward to it.
[42:47.330 --> 42:49.370]  I think, what is it, May 10th, we should mention?
[42:49.510 --> 42:52.250]  That's the date when other briefs have to be...
[42:52.250 --> 42:53.290]  Well, there is...
[42:53.290 --> 42:57.670]  They gave us an opportunity to file briefs, corrections, clarifications, I guess.
[42:57.970 --> 42:58.710]  Answer the questions and whatnot.
[42:58.910 --> 43:01.310]  Because there are so many technical issues that needed to be addressed.
[43:02.310 --> 43:04.470]  And also, I should point out, this is unrelated...
[43:04.470 --> 43:05.450]  Well, in a way, it's related.
[43:06.050 --> 43:10.190]  But you may have heard that there's another lawsuit that we're being subjected to.
[43:10.250 --> 43:11.550]  Now, this is a ridiculous one.
[43:11.650 --> 43:12.630]  This really is absurd.
[43:12.670 --> 43:14.630]  And I found out about this last week.
[43:14.630 --> 43:15.910]  It was mentioned on the show briefly.
[43:16.110 --> 43:18.870]  But, you know, we still haven't been actually served with papers.
[43:19.670 --> 43:20.950]  We got a fax.
[43:21.610 --> 43:23.830]  The best they could do was fax us and email us.
[43:23.970 --> 43:25.770]  So, you know, that's what we posted up on the website.
[43:25.890 --> 43:39.830]  But basically, a couple of years ago, when we registered all those sites with the funny names and, you know, some four-letter word names, because they were previously prevented from being registered by NSI when they were the only registrar, well, there was a run for them when other ones opened up.
[43:39.830 --> 43:44.250]  So everybody got, you know, F.com, S.com, you know, all the four-letter words.
[43:44.530 --> 43:49.370]  And so what we did was we grabbed a few that had corporate names, including NBC and CBS.
[43:49.370 --> 43:58.390]  If you recall, NBC sent us a threatening letter saying we had no right to use FNBC.com because it was a violation of their trademark.
[43:58.610 --> 44:02.910]  And we're like, well, how does the F word a violation of your trademark is simply a comment about NBC?
[44:04.470 --> 44:09.570]  And we also commented at the time that CBS was pretty mature for not sending us a letter.
[44:09.610 --> 44:10.770]  And we put that in an issue.
[44:10.890 --> 44:14.550]  The next week, we got a letter from CBS because apparently that's when they found out about it.
[44:15.230 --> 44:17.190]  So someone at CBS reads 2600.
[44:17.270 --> 44:18.430]  Yeah, well, I'm sure they do.
[44:19.290 --> 44:20.590]  Well, I'm curious here.
[44:20.630 --> 44:22.710]  You keep talking about these F and S words.
[44:22.910 --> 44:27.250]  I mean, are you being polite or is this that you're operating in a censored medium here?
[44:27.350 --> 44:28.650]  Well, I'm operating in a censored medium.
[44:29.050 --> 44:30.670]  It's run by the FCC, unfortunately.
[44:31.330 --> 44:33.990]  You know, actually, after 10 o'clock, we can say those words.
[44:34.510 --> 44:35.770]  It's called indecency.
[44:36.050 --> 44:40.510]  But, you know, we don't want children to hear them because if they hear them, they might use them and then parents won't know what to do.
[44:40.750 --> 44:41.730]  Is it 10 now?
[44:42.210 --> 44:43.990]  Yeah, 10 to 6.
[44:44.210 --> 44:46.130]  I think it was clarified a few years ago.
[44:46.210 --> 44:46.630]  Oh, very good.
[44:46.830 --> 44:50.870]  We're the station that started the whole thing, you know, by playing George Carlin Seven Dirty Words.
[44:52.430 --> 45:03.550]  Yeah, I thought the Supreme Court did a really good thing when they not only decided that case, but they published the monologue in the appendix to the Supreme Court decision.
[45:03.870 --> 45:09.310]  So basically, even if you couldn't hear it on the radio, you could go down to the federal government bookstore and buy a copy of it.
[45:09.310 --> 45:12.450]  But you couldn't read that decision on the air or you'd get in real trouble.
[45:12.650 --> 45:13.630]  What were those seven words?
[45:13.990 --> 45:15.270]  We'll get into that after the show.
[45:15.670 --> 45:17.270]  Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, and beep.
[45:17.590 --> 45:18.310]  And C, and beep.
[45:18.630 --> 45:24.230]  Well, some of them you can say these days, but we're not going to say them anyway because I think it degrades the sound of the radio show in general.
[45:24.950 --> 45:26.450]  But, okay, but that's only half the story.
[45:26.530 --> 45:30.870]  The rest of the story is that we got a bunch of others, including General Motors.
[45:31.010 --> 45:41.210]  Now, if you recall, last November, we got a letter from General Motors saying, don't have F General Motors dot com as a violation of our trademark, blah, blah, blah, we responded saying, you know, this is a thing called free speech.
[45:41.330 --> 45:43.190]  We have every right to say that about you.
[45:43.830 --> 45:45.850]  And we're not using your trademark by saying it.
[45:45.930 --> 45:51.450]  We're simply using your name because you're the subject of the F word in that particular case and people can criticize you.
[45:51.590 --> 45:53.610]  Okay, they seem to have dropped it.
[45:54.130 --> 45:59.130]  But last week, the Ford Motor Company decided to weigh in on this issue.
[45:59.310 --> 46:01.490]  Now, we've been pointing the site to various places.
[46:01.590 --> 46:06.770]  We pointed it to a consumer affairs place for one, you know, for people to complain about General Motors.
[46:06.890 --> 46:08.670]  We had been pointing it at General Motors for a little while.
[46:09.010 --> 46:10.410]  We pointed it all over the place.
[46:10.490 --> 46:13.710]  But we wound up pointing it at Ford because, hey, Ford's a competitor of General Motors.
[46:13.790 --> 46:14.550]  We thought it'd be kind of funny.
[46:15.470 --> 46:24.210]  Apparently, Ford feels that our pointing it at them degrades their trademark because people will think that Ford is saying this about General Motors.
[46:24.330 --> 46:25.430]  I don't know why they would care.
[46:25.570 --> 46:26.190]  They're the competition.
[46:26.370 --> 46:27.710]  They probably do say it about them.
[46:28.210 --> 46:32.570]  But they think that our doing that is causing irreparable harm.
[46:32.570 --> 46:33.930]  I think that's one of the words they used.
[46:35.130 --> 46:35.850]  Unimaginable damage.
[46:36.990 --> 46:39.250]  Keep in mind, someone has to type this in to start with.
[46:39.330 --> 46:42.030]  So how they think Ford is responsible for them typing it in, I don't know.
[46:42.310 --> 46:45.130]  Point is, they are trying to serve us.
[46:45.330 --> 46:47.510]  And, you know, if they come to the radio station now, they can serve me.
[46:47.590 --> 46:49.530]  I'm here, you know, but they can't seem to find me.
[46:50.170 --> 46:51.110]  Wait till next week.
[46:51.350 --> 46:51.570]  Yeah.
[46:51.830 --> 46:52.570]  Or the meeting.
[46:52.710 --> 46:53.010]  You know what?
[46:53.070 --> 47:01.570]  Come to the meeting, 2600 meeting this Friday, City Corp Center, or City Group Center now, it's called, on 53rd Street between Lexington and Park Avenue.
[47:01.810 --> 47:02.970]  Can't be more specific than that.
[47:03.070 --> 47:04.430]  I'll even wear an H2K hat.
[47:04.510 --> 47:04.950]  How about that?
[47:05.630 --> 47:08.710]  So, now Ford is coming after us saying that we have no right to do that.
[47:08.770 --> 47:13.470]  You know, these idiots, and I guess I'll get in trouble for saying that, they can block us.
[47:13.790 --> 47:18.370]  They can block the redirect from fgeneralmartyrs.com to ford.com.
[47:18.450 --> 47:20.010]  They can just block it with a simple command.
[47:20.010 --> 47:20.750]  Why don't they do that?
[47:20.910 --> 47:22.450]  They never sent us a cease and desist letter.
[47:22.530 --> 47:23.890]  They never told us this in any way.
[47:24.110 --> 47:27.150]  If they had simply sent us a letter, we probably would have directed it someplace else.
[47:27.310 --> 47:27.730]  It's not a big deal.
[47:27.730 --> 47:41.230]  Now, what I find interesting about this is not only is Ford's IT staff so inept that they can't figure out how to do this on their own, they're taking technical advice from the publishers of 2600 Magazine, which seems a little bit not wise to me.
[47:41.330 --> 47:41.870]  Well, I don't know.
[47:41.910 --> 47:45.710]  If they had done that in the first place, I think they might not have gotten into this mess, which they are in, right?
[47:46.010 --> 47:49.370]  You know, they're in a pretty big mess by doing this.
[47:49.430 --> 47:50.930]  It just makes them look so bad.
[47:50.930 --> 47:51.830]  I don't understand it.
[47:51.910 --> 47:53.970]  It's like, you know, I couldn't write a better script.
[47:54.990 --> 47:56.030]  All right, let's take some phone calls.
[47:56.110 --> 47:57.530]  212-209-2900.
[47:57.530 --> 47:59.150]  Our phone system is a bit weird today.
[47:59.370 --> 48:00.650]  I see lines jumping all over the place.
[48:00.770 --> 48:01.730]  Half of them are taped over.
[48:02.390 --> 48:04.450]  I'm going to just pick up lines and see what happens.
[48:04.570 --> 48:05.410]  All right, let's go over here first.
[48:06.050 --> 48:06.550]  Good evening.
[48:06.650 --> 48:07.110]  You're on the air.
[48:07.390 --> 48:08.030]  Hi, good evening.
[48:08.270 --> 48:11.510]  I heard there was a disposable cell phone.
[48:12.270 --> 48:16.610]  Can you tell me where it's been sold in approximately the car so if you know about it?
[48:16.730 --> 48:17.370]  What was the question?
[48:18.150 --> 48:18.510]  Disposable.
[48:18.530 --> 48:19.890]  Oh, disposable cell phones.
[48:20.110 --> 48:21.290]  Disposable cell phones, yeah.
[48:21.430 --> 48:22.850]  Anybody know about disposable cell phones?
[48:22.850 --> 48:24.190]  I've heard bits and pieces.
[48:24.590 --> 48:26.630]  Supposedly, they're like, you know, the disposable cameras.
[48:26.630 --> 48:28.690]  You get a certain number of minutes on the thing.
[48:28.850 --> 48:29.550]  They got like...
[48:29.550 --> 48:29.830]  Pre-paid.
[48:30.190 --> 48:33.370]  Yeah, they're prepaid phones and you run around and you use them and you chuck them in the garbage.
[48:33.590 --> 48:35.690]  Maybe cell phone stores would have that kind of thing.
[48:35.690 --> 48:36.390]  I don't know where they're being used.
[48:36.390 --> 48:38.290]  You can buy one right across the street from NotWork.
[48:38.450 --> 48:38.830]  You can.
[48:39.070 --> 48:39.210]  Yeah.
[48:39.350 --> 48:40.310]  People know where that is.
[48:40.330 --> 48:41.010]  They have a big neon sign there.
[48:41.170 --> 48:42.750]  Okay, well, basically all over the place.
[48:42.990 --> 48:48.750]  You know, different phone stores, different places that might have, you know, yes?
[48:49.010 --> 48:52.590]  They do not have dials on them or obviously they don't have dials.
[48:52.690 --> 48:53.490]  They don't have a keypad.
[48:53.610 --> 48:54.210]  That'd be great.
[48:54.210 --> 48:55.270]  to sell you the phone with a dial.
[48:55.370 --> 48:55.990]  I'd like to see that.
[48:56.530 --> 48:57.090]  I'd like that.
[48:57.150 --> 48:58.110]  It'd be like an old butt set.
[48:58.390 --> 49:07.970]  Anyway, what you do is you press a button and it connects you with a system that will recognize your spoken digits.
[49:08.150 --> 49:10.810]  So you say the number you want to dial and then it connects you.
[49:10.870 --> 49:14.510]  That way they get aware of the manufacturing cost of adding a keypad to this disposable phone.
[49:14.990 --> 49:17.590]  And I've heard they're supposed to sell between $20 and $30.
[49:18.270 --> 49:18.630]  Wow.
[49:19.010 --> 49:20.030]  I think it's a waste.
[49:20.170 --> 49:21.150]  Why throw this stuff out?
[49:21.210 --> 49:22.390]  At least recycle them, you know?
[49:22.770 --> 49:24.910]  Okay, there's a perfectly good transmitter in there, you know?
[49:25.050 --> 49:25.970]  Let's take another phone call.
[49:26.070 --> 49:27.390]  212-209-2900.
[49:27.450 --> 49:27.690]  Good evening.
[49:27.770 --> 49:28.190]  You're on the air.
[49:28.490 --> 49:29.150]  Oh, it's a doll tone.
[49:29.250 --> 49:31.010]  It'd be interesting to take one of those phones apart.
[49:31.550 --> 49:31.930]  Yes, go ahead.
[49:32.890 --> 49:38.070]  Speaking about these cell phones with a dial, I've been looking for the cellular shoe phone.
[49:38.490 --> 49:39.090]  Oh, yes.
[49:39.830 --> 49:42.350]  I'd like to carry Sports Illustrated and they'll send you one.
[49:42.410 --> 49:44.850]  I'd like to have a desk phone, you know, just a regular desk phone.
[49:44.910 --> 49:45.890]  Have that be a cellular phone.
[49:45.970 --> 49:46.710]  Carry that around with me.
[49:46.810 --> 49:47.290]  It'd be kind of cool.
[49:47.390 --> 49:49.810]  Or just have a cell phone that has a regular bell ring.
[49:49.810 --> 49:50.790]  That would be really cool.
[49:51.650 --> 49:55.230]  I'm starting to really like the idea of a dial on a cell phone.
[49:55.290 --> 49:55.550]  All right.
[49:55.630 --> 49:56.570]  That could be a lot of fun.
[49:56.650 --> 49:57.190]  You look into that.
[49:57.270 --> 49:58.830]  I'm going to try to figure out this phone system here.
[49:58.970 --> 50:01.730]  Even most desk phones no longer have real bells in them.
[50:01.850 --> 50:02.910]  They have beep, beep, beep.
[50:03.010 --> 50:05.030]  This is really veering off the topic here.
[50:05.190 --> 50:05.670]  All right.
[50:05.930 --> 50:07.150]  Let's take another phone call.
[50:07.230 --> 50:07.450]  Good evening.
[50:07.530 --> 50:07.910]  You're on the air.
[50:08.230 --> 50:08.490]  Hello.
[50:08.730 --> 50:09.130]  Yes, go ahead.
[50:09.850 --> 50:11.890]  I was wondering about this thing.
[50:12.310 --> 50:13.670]  I'm going to try to keep it on topic.
[50:14.370 --> 50:19.390]  It's about the recording of TV shows digitally like Jeevo.
[50:20.110 --> 50:22.250]  There was a thing a while ago.
[50:22.670 --> 50:24.370]  I'm not sure if any of you heard about it.
[50:24.430 --> 50:25.810]  It's called the Indrema.
[50:26.510 --> 50:32.790]  It's a Linux-based video game system which is actually better than the PS2 and almost better than the Xbox.
[50:33.450 --> 50:38.050]  The only problem is that the producers seem to have run out of money since it's open source.
[50:38.770 --> 50:40.990]  Like you can create your own games and stuff like that.
[50:41.510 --> 50:50.870]  And also, it allows you a lot of things like Ethernet, built-in like 12-gig hard drive USB controllers, a lot of other stuff really nice.
[50:51.490 --> 50:58.410]  And then there's like an extra service so you can actually record different TV shows at the same time onto the hard drive.
[50:58.990 --> 51:02.670]  And I was wondering, in the future, are they going to make this illegal too?
[51:02.670 --> 51:03.750]  Right now it's covered.
[51:03.890 --> 51:04.870]  It's called time-shifting.
[51:05.130 --> 51:12.610]  And in fact, TiVo is probably the best example of it beyond what the Supreme Court originally thought with the VHS cassettes.
[51:12.830 --> 51:15.910]  Well, time-shifting is only good for signals that you're authorized to receive.
[51:15.910 --> 51:16.890]  Remember, I crave TV.
[51:17.070 --> 51:18.570]  They kind of drummed that out of business, didn't they?
[51:19.090 --> 51:19.510]  Possibly.
[51:20.010 --> 51:21.270]  We have a legal expert here.
[51:21.310 --> 51:22.050]  What am I talking about?
[51:22.490 --> 51:28.410]  There are some issues with the recording TV shows.
[51:29.010 --> 51:30.150]  It's not clear.
[51:30.530 --> 51:46.210]  There haven't been any cases brought yet, but the TiVo people are very clear that they did some specific things to the TiVo technology in order to try to avoid problems with the broadcast networks.
[51:46.610 --> 51:49.330]  One of the things they do, you know, it would be trivial, right?
[51:49.410 --> 51:50.410]  It's a digital recorder.
[51:50.550 --> 51:52.350]  It would be trivial to have it just skip commercials.
[51:52.950 --> 51:54.510]  But instead, you've got a TiVo.
[51:54.630 --> 51:57.790]  You've got to fast forward through your commercials just as though it were analog.
[51:58.110 --> 52:07.710]  So you at least got to see, you know, so that they dumb down the technology so that it looked like a VCR, even though there's no, you know, there's no reason why they'd have to do that.
[52:08.110 --> 52:10.690]  There are certainly, I mean, in general, you're right.
[52:10.870 --> 52:15.170]  The Sony Betamax case determined that time shifting is something you can do.
[52:15.310 --> 52:19.050]  But most of these digital recordings let you do significantly more things.
[52:19.190 --> 52:21.910]  And those significantly more things do raise real legal issues.
[52:21.910 --> 52:30.590]  well, and replay TV is a little bit less conservative than TiVo in that they let you skip forward at 30 seconds at a time.
[52:31.150 --> 52:33.970]  And so while it's not a, it'd be good to have a two-minute skip.
[52:34.350 --> 52:34.530]  Yeah.
[52:35.030 --> 52:36.490]  Coincide with the time of the commercials.
[52:36.750 --> 52:38.190]  Although they're more like four minutes these days.
[52:38.410 --> 52:39.610]  Yeah, 30 seconds is...
[52:39.610 --> 52:43.630]  I watched a videotape from only 10 years ago and there were significantly less commercials.
[52:43.930 --> 52:45.830]  But they may be getting rid of that in, you know, the next release.
[52:46.070 --> 52:47.590]  And I know they're...
[52:47.590 --> 52:49.610]  Or, you know, somebody can design something.
[52:49.870 --> 52:50.730]  They're under considerable pressure.
[52:50.730 --> 52:53.990]  But is it illegal for someone to design something that does just this?
[52:54.130 --> 52:55.030]  Or do you have to be licensed?
[52:55.390 --> 52:55.430]  Not yet.
[52:55.550 --> 52:56.310]  That's a big question.
[52:56.430 --> 52:57.870]  I mean, Record TV did get sued.
[52:58.170 --> 52:58.490]  Mm-hmm.
[52:58.730 --> 53:02.410]  And they just recently settled with the broadcast media.
[53:02.570 --> 53:07.450]  And I'm afraid right now I'm not remembering exactly how, you know, what the causes of action were.
[53:07.590 --> 53:10.130]  But there are definitely issues.
[53:10.250 --> 53:11.810]  I mean, they don't like this technology.
[53:12.050 --> 53:15.270]  And so, you know, every time a new technology comes on, they're worried...
[53:15.270 --> 53:15.630]  It's going to be challenged.
[53:15.810 --> 53:15.970]  Yeah.
[53:16.250 --> 53:16.430]  Okay.
[53:16.490 --> 53:17.150]  Let's take another phone call.
[53:17.150 --> 53:25.090]  I'm going to violate station policy here by pressing a line under the masking tape, which is not supposed to be pressed.
[53:25.090 --> 53:27.470]  But I'm going to press it anyway because so many of them are covered.
[53:27.470 --> 53:29.250]  I want to see if maybe there's somebody trapped here.
[53:29.850 --> 53:30.430]  Good evening.
[53:30.530 --> 53:30.990]  You're on the air.
[53:31.610 --> 53:32.210]  Hey, how you doing?
[53:32.450 --> 53:32.950]  What's up?
[53:33.810 --> 53:37.330]  This is in regards to your friend that was braced at the airport.
[53:37.450 --> 53:37.970]  Yes, go ahead.
[53:38.670 --> 53:44.330]  I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that he did not assert his rights strong enough.
[53:45.410 --> 53:46.850]  Strongly enough in...
[53:47.490 --> 53:55.350]  Not so much when they ask can we speak with you, but when they start ordered rifle in his bag and whatnot, he didn't put up a hue and cry at that point in time.
[53:55.510 --> 53:59.570]  Well, you know, a few years ago I had a similar thing happen to me in North Carolina where I was pulled over by state troopers.
[53:59.670 --> 54:00.890]  I talked about this on the air, too.
[54:01.350 --> 54:01.910]  It's weird.
[54:02.030 --> 54:03.190]  When it happens to you...
[54:03.190 --> 54:03.810]  Sorry.
[54:04.570 --> 54:07.730]  That beat, by the way, that beat, by the way, is part of me violating the policy.
[54:08.070 --> 54:09.390]  I guess that's why these lines are taped up.
[54:09.390 --> 54:10.190]  That's why they're taped up.
[54:10.330 --> 54:11.410]  We're probably being recorded.
[54:11.570 --> 54:12.790]  Yeah, it's a good question, though.
[54:12.850 --> 54:14.830]  It's a good question and a good point.
[54:15.250 --> 54:20.850]  When it actually happens to you, you'd be surprised how easy it is to not do what you think you're going to do.
[54:21.010 --> 54:21.590]  For sure.
[54:21.790 --> 54:21.930]  Yeah.
[54:22.270 --> 54:25.650]  But more importantly, or what he should do is...
[54:25.650 --> 54:30.650]  At one time when they had the marches uptown at the Million Youth March or whatever,
[54:33.850 --> 54:38.710]  you have to make it known to the police that you know who they are.
[54:39.030 --> 54:39.470]  Uh-huh.
[54:39.730 --> 54:45.710]  And by, like, as soon as he shows you his identification and slaps it shut right away, you've got to say, hey, look, I didn't see that.
[54:45.790 --> 54:46.870]  Can I see your ID?
[54:46.890 --> 54:47.710]  Who are you?
[54:48.150 --> 54:48.710]  What's your name?
[54:48.710 --> 54:51.170]  Let's assume we do know who this person is.
[54:51.270 --> 54:52.010]  What do we do next?
[54:52.230 --> 54:53.070]  What's the next step?
[54:53.490 --> 54:56.730]  Well, at that point in time you would have to file a complaint.
[54:56.890 --> 54:57.290]  Mm-hmm.
[54:57.330 --> 55:00.890]  I would assume with the federal marshals or the DEA office itself.
[55:01.150 --> 55:01.370]  Mm-hmm.
[55:01.430 --> 55:06.330]  And you would more than likely get a runaround from them because they don't want to jump on their own.
[55:06.910 --> 55:10.550]  They don't have a complaint board type thing, you know?
[55:10.650 --> 55:16.290]  They're going to argue that he consented because they asked him if they could ask him a few questions and he said yes and then they're going to use that as consent.
[55:16.290 --> 55:17.650]  But they started rifling his bag.
[55:17.790 --> 55:23.190]  Like I say, at that point in time while he was in a public place...
[55:23.190 --> 55:26.130]  I'm not saying it's a valid argument but that's going to be their argument.
[55:26.250 --> 55:26.550]  Oh, yeah.
[55:26.830 --> 55:38.930]  Well, if it comes to lying, I mean, after they rifled through his bag and they found the $600,000 in cash or the 36 pounds of cocaine, they would have said he let them open the bag.
[55:39.070 --> 55:39.350]  Mm-hmm.
[55:39.570 --> 55:41.630]  You know, and he'd still be a slumber over it.
[55:41.950 --> 55:42.130]  Yeah.
[55:42.830 --> 55:48.370]  I did ask them a second time to see their identification.
[55:48.830 --> 55:49.670]  And they wouldn't bring it out?
[55:49.790 --> 55:50.690]  No, they did, actually.
[55:50.790 --> 55:51.270]  Oh, okay.
[55:51.310 --> 55:52.770]  Did you copy down their names and whatnot?
[55:53.110 --> 55:55.530]  No, I was pretty shaken up at the time.
[55:55.530 --> 55:56.950]  I mean, I'd been on a nine-hour flight.
[55:57.330 --> 56:05.650]  Yeah, see, I'm 50 years old now so I went through the late 60s and early 70s being harassed by the police constantly.
[56:06.430 --> 56:11.690]  And I'm thinking about going back to the airport and finding those people and then, you know, watching what they...
[56:11.690 --> 56:11.870]  Embracing them there?
[56:12.030 --> 56:14.210]  No, they'd get a disability or something.
[56:14.570 --> 56:16.450]  Well, I would just watch and see what they do.
[56:16.590 --> 56:18.230]  I wouldn't, like, approach them or anything.
[56:18.530 --> 56:18.750]  Yeah.
[56:19.110 --> 56:20.390]  Maybe get them on video or something.
[56:20.570 --> 56:22.270]  They hate that but that's perfectly legal.
[56:22.550 --> 56:23.870]  Anyway, sir, thanks so much for the call.
[56:24.010 --> 56:26.630]  Sorry about the beeps but some very good points brought up there.
[56:26.810 --> 56:29.730]  These sorts of things don't always have to be, you know, hazardous to one's health.
[56:29.990 --> 56:34.090]  I mean, I was going up into Canada and I filled out the form and the customs guy came over.
[56:34.170 --> 56:35.030]  You went up for the protest, eh?
[56:35.190 --> 56:38.270]  No, this was years ago for a different thing entirely.
[56:38.530 --> 56:40.010]  I have no interest in the protest then.
[56:40.110 --> 56:40.270]  Okay.
[56:40.270 --> 56:42.910]  I'm on my way up and they say, are you carrying any fruits and vegetables?
[56:42.910 --> 56:43.610]  I say, no.
[56:43.910 --> 56:45.070]  They say, are you carrying any weapons?
[56:45.190 --> 56:46.650]  I say, only my Rapiewitzer.
[56:47.130 --> 56:48.550]  And he thought that was very funny.
[56:48.690 --> 56:49.470]  Well, yeah, he was Canadian.
[56:49.470 --> 56:51.730]  If you try that with a customs agent in the United States...
[56:51.730 --> 56:52.630]  I tried it on the U.S.
[56:52.750 --> 56:58.490]  customs guy on the way back and I got a very strange look from the guy and then he said, wait a second, is that dangerous?
[56:58.790 --> 57:01.990]  I say, very dangerous and someone else had to help him with the phrase.
[57:02.170 --> 57:03.370]  Yeah, now you're in the computer.
[57:03.570 --> 57:03.730]  Right.
[57:03.890 --> 57:04.950]  All right, let's go over here.
[57:04.990 --> 57:05.370]  Good evening.
[57:05.530 --> 57:06.190]  You're on the air.
[57:07.010 --> 57:08.810]  Remember when life wasn't annoying?
[57:09.070 --> 57:09.950]  Yeah, I remember it, Rebel.
[57:10.070 --> 57:10.610]  Five months ago.
[57:10.730 --> 57:11.550]  When you weren't calling us.
[57:11.630 --> 57:12.570]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[57:13.690 --> 57:14.350]  Speak up, please.
[57:14.710 --> 57:33.150]  Hi, I just wanted to say, I wish I had more details but I know that the protection against illegal search and seizure does not apply to the roads and I think, I'm going to make this brief so somebody with more information can call up, but I think that this was one of the anti-terrorism measures brought in by the Clinton government.
[57:33.350 --> 57:35.610]  Well, if it's anti-terrorism, then we have to support it, right?
[57:35.990 --> 57:36.390]  Yeah.
[57:37.350 --> 57:38.150]  Okay, take care.
[57:38.230 --> 57:39.090]  Glad the cat came back.
[57:39.230 --> 57:39.490]  Thanks.
[57:39.590 --> 57:40.130]  Thanks so much.
[57:40.670 --> 57:41.990]  That's not true.
[57:42.870 --> 57:45.610]  I don't want anybody to be under the impression that that's true.
[57:45.810 --> 57:46.270]  It's not.
[57:46.270 --> 57:47.210]  No, it's...
[57:47.210 --> 57:48.970]  Well, besides, I wasn't on the road.
[57:49.110 --> 57:50.510]  I was at a sky bridge.
[57:50.910 --> 57:51.070]  Yeah.
[57:51.330 --> 57:51.570]  Right.
[57:51.890 --> 57:57.430]  Well, the first rule there and Nancy Reagan got this right, just say no.
[57:57.670 --> 58:00.550]  If they can ask you questions, just say no.
[58:00.710 --> 58:03.590]  If they ask if you can be searched, just say no.
[58:04.070 --> 58:12.570]  You have to assert your rights because the courts have ruled that if you don't assert them, you waive them and they can go ahead and do what they want.
[58:12.610 --> 58:12.890]  Okay.
[58:16.030 --> 58:16.710]  Last call.
[58:17.030 --> 58:17.450]  Last call.
[58:17.630 --> 58:17.890]  Good evening.
[58:18.010 --> 58:18.330]  You're on the air.
[58:18.870 --> 58:19.050]  Hi.
[58:19.130 --> 58:19.970]  Thanks for taking my call.
[58:20.090 --> 58:22.390]  Thanks for the magazine, the website, and the radio show, too.
[58:22.630 --> 58:22.850]  All right.
[58:22.870 --> 58:24.650]  You have 30 seconds to say anything else.
[58:24.710 --> 58:33.570]  Hey, it may be trite, but I just wanted to say that Verizon, over the last, like, nine months down here in the D.C.
[58:33.570 --> 58:50.510]  area, has been able to, been unable to install numerous DSL lines over that time and no one can even get their information from the phone company because there's, like, one small group that keeps all their DSL installs in an Excel spreadsheet.
[58:50.750 --> 58:51.150]  Oh, boy.
[58:51.350 --> 58:52.710]  That's how they even monitor the thing.
[58:52.950 --> 58:53.110]  Yeah.
[58:53.330 --> 58:55.990]  And no one can find the guy half the time when you call in.
[58:56.370 --> 58:57.150]  Anyway, thanks.
[58:57.290 --> 58:59.010]  It sounds like y'all are in pretty good shape up there.
[58:59.170 --> 59:00.410]  Well, we got a lot of friends.
[59:00.530 --> 59:03.610]  We got a lot of friends in high places and in all kinds of places.
[59:03.610 --> 59:05.430]  We want to thank them for their support and all that.
[59:05.610 --> 59:10.170]  Speaking of which, EFF people, please give your information out so people can support you.
[59:10.510 --> 59:10.950]  Sure.
[59:11.130 --> 59:16.990]  The Electronic Frontier Foundation is located at www.eff.org on the Internet.
[59:17.350 --> 59:20.690]  And we're at 454 Shotwell Street in San Francisco.
[59:20.690 --> 59:24.050]  The phone number is 415-436-9333.
[59:24.430 --> 59:28.730]  We have been supporting 2600 Magazine, but I want to be honest with you, it's emptied our coffers.
[59:28.930 --> 59:33.810]  If you think what we're doing is correct for 2600 Magazine, please come join us.
[59:33.930 --> 59:38.810]  Join the EFF and get all your friends to join us too because that's how we can afford to continue to do this.
[59:38.890 --> 59:47.250]  I also just wanted to say that I'm very proud to be on WBAI because I'm a big fan of Amy Goodman and I wanted to just urge her to continue in her battle to remain free.
[59:47.450 --> 59:48.110]  You know, she's here.
[59:48.510 --> 59:49.390]  I'd love to meet her.
[59:49.450 --> 59:50.090]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[59:50.770 --> 59:50.910]  Okay.
[59:51.250 --> 59:54.930]  John Gilmore and Robin and Cindy, thank you so much for coming by.
[59:55.050 --> 59:56.070]  Thanks to everybody else for coming by.
[59:56.190 --> 59:57.890]  Thanks for the listeners and everybody else.
[59:58.030 --> 59:59.390]  We'll be back next week.
[59:59.730 --> 01:00:02.070]  Until then, keep listening to WBAI New York.
[01:00:02.210 --> 01:00:03.250]  You'll hear some interesting things.
[01:00:03.530 --> 01:00:03.750]  Good night.
[01:00:22.770 --> 01:00:24.530]  The Palestinian reality?
[01:00:24.990 --> 01:00:27.490]  What's really happening in the Muslim lands?
[01:00:27.870 --> 01:00:30.410]  A new memoir by Professor Leila Ahmed?
[01:00:30.410 --> 01:00:34.430]  Or Muslim political candidates in the USA?
[01:00:34.990 --> 01:00:42.590]  These and more are questions you can hear discussed on Tahrir, WBAI's magazine of the Arab Muslim community.
[01:00:43.270 --> 01:00:43.910]  Marhaba.
[01:00:44.190 --> 01:00:51.770]  I'm Barbara Nimri Aziz and I'd like you to join me and our Tahrir staff every Tuesday night at 9 o'clock.
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