[00:02.460 --> 00:04.620]  The Palestinian reality?
[00:04.960 --> 00:07.540]  What's really happening in the Muslim lands?
[00:07.900 --> 00:10.440]  A new memoir by Professor Leila Ahmed?
[00:11.000 --> 00:14.380]  Or Muslim political candidates in the USA?
[00:14.980 --> 00:22.420]  These and more are questions you can hear discussed on Tafrir, WBAI's magazine of the Arab Muslim community.
[00:23.100 --> 00:31.440]  Marhaba, I'm Barbara Numeri Aziz, and I'd like you to join me and our Tafrir staff every Tuesday night at 9 o'clock.
[00:31.440 --> 00:34.220]  That's Tuesdays from 9 to 10 p.m.
[00:34.520 --> 00:40.100]  here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:40.210 --> 00:43.760]  You're sure to find something new and sometimes controversy.
[00:53.260 --> 00:57.960]  And that's coming up in just about one hour here on radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:58.460 --> 01:04.610]  And judging from the sound of my voice, I guess I'm not back yet, so I must be away.
[01:05.400 --> 01:13.140]  But regardless of whether I'm there or back, this is Emanuel Goldstein for Off The Hook, which is now the program that is time for.
[01:18.070 --> 01:22.470]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:23.510 --> 01:28.010]  I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:29.050 --> 01:30.690]  And look at me at my choice.
[02:15.590 --> 02:17.930]  And very good evening to one and all.
[02:18.090 --> 02:19.390]  This is Emanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:19.810 --> 02:23.650]  I'm actually in Paris right now, where it's 2 in the morning.
[02:24.070 --> 02:26.790]  Isaac is back there in New York where it's 8 in the evening.
[02:26.790 --> 02:27.590]  And pouring.
[02:28.150 --> 02:29.010]  Is it pouring, right?
[02:29.250 --> 02:30.130]  Absolutely pouring.
[02:30.470 --> 02:35.370]  You know, every time I've talked to somebody in New York, all they've done is complain about the weather.
[02:35.590 --> 02:37.170]  Well, I'm not complaining, I'm just reporting.
[02:37.870 --> 02:40.670]  Well, the way you said it was pouring made it sound like it was something bad.
[02:40.930 --> 02:42.450]  I'm in the studio, what do I care?
[02:42.690 --> 02:44.370]  Well, okay, I guess you wouldn't.
[02:45.510 --> 02:46.710]  As long as it stops in the room.
[02:46.910 --> 02:49.990]  I've heard about heat waves, I've heard about all kinds of things going on over there.
[02:50.210 --> 02:50.390]  Yeah.
[02:50.970 --> 02:52.310]  It really sounds awful.
[02:53.450 --> 02:56.850]  Well, this is our post-HOWL show.
[02:57.270 --> 03:09.290]  Hackers at large took place this past weekend at a college campus, University of 20, near the city of Anshaday in the Netherlands.
[03:10.030 --> 03:15.370]  And I'm in awe, I really am, as to just how amazingly well this worked out.
[03:15.530 --> 03:19.190]  What we're going to be doing tonight, we're going to try to make some radio history.
[03:19.190 --> 03:21.110]  And if we pull this off, it'll really be a miracle.
[03:21.810 --> 03:35.150]  We've got about five people I think we're going to be talking to all at the same time from around the world who were part of the whole event, including one of the main organizers.
[03:35.250 --> 03:41.690]  But I just want to say, as we're getting people on the phone, that I expected it to be really, really cool.
[03:41.730 --> 03:42.710]  I expected it to be great.
[03:43.370 --> 03:44.990]  But I was still blown away.
[03:45.150 --> 03:55.110]  I was still amazed by how great it was and how it went off without really any hitch at all and how people just got together and made this thing happen.
[03:55.350 --> 04:05.550]  They built up an entire community, an entire city virtually, with bandwidth, electricity, and all kinds of necessities that people need.
[04:06.490 --> 04:13.670]  And it just really, really turned out, I think, the most positive thing that's happened in the hacker world in a very, very long time.
[04:15.290 --> 04:16.890]  And I learned a lot.
[04:17.090 --> 04:18.690]  I met a lot of really, really cool people.
[04:19.310 --> 04:27.570]  And my only regret is that it's over and that we have to wait for another one, which hopefully will happen four years from now, as has been the tradition over in the Netherlands.
[04:28.410 --> 04:30.190]  Galactic Hacker Party, 1989.
[04:30.830 --> 04:32.290]  Hackers of the Energy Universe, 1993.
[04:33.030 --> 04:34.370]  Hacking in Progress, 1997.
[04:35.110 --> 04:36.970]  And Hackers at Large, 2001.
[04:37.210 --> 04:40.350]  So we'll just have to see what 2005 brings.
[04:40.930 --> 04:48.710]  We're trying to get Ropp, one of the main organizers of how 2001 Ropp has been on the program quite a few times before.
[04:48.890 --> 04:49.450]  Ropp, are you there?
[04:51.910 --> 04:53.150]  I guess Ropp's not there.
[04:53.390 --> 04:54.290]  I think he's trying to get Ropp.
[04:54.330 --> 04:54.770]  There he is.
[04:55.470 --> 04:56.010]  Hello, Ropp.
[04:56.470 --> 04:56.930]  Hi, Ropp.
[04:57.570 --> 04:58.150]  There he is.
[04:59.790 --> 05:00.750]  Ropp, are you with us?
[05:01.290 --> 05:02.510]  I am with you, Emmanuel.
[05:02.770 --> 05:06.130]  Okay, it sounds like you're in some kind of tunnel someplace.
[05:06.350 --> 05:07.650]  Where exactly are you?
[05:07.690 --> 05:08.090]  He's hiding.
[05:08.750 --> 05:09.890]  I'm in my bathtub.
[05:10.690 --> 05:11.610]  I see, okay.
[05:12.330 --> 05:14.190]  Well, hopefully we haven't...
[05:14.190 --> 05:15.150]  Is the audio too bad?
[05:15.310 --> 05:17.530]  Because I can go somewhere else.
[05:18.370 --> 05:20.390]  No, no, the audio is fine.
[05:20.390 --> 05:23.370]  We certainly don't want you to go where you're not comfortable.
[05:23.370 --> 05:27.730]  So if talking from your bath is okay with you, it's okay with us.
[05:27.890 --> 05:28.670]  Is that okay with you, Isaac?
[05:29.090 --> 05:30.330]  Oh, it's fine with me.
[05:30.490 --> 05:31.170]  He's welcome to bathe.
[05:31.210 --> 05:34.310]  And, you know, this is radio, so we'll be okay.
[05:34.690 --> 05:35.510]  Yeah, that's true.
[05:36.050 --> 05:37.290]  Nobody need to know since it's radio.
[05:37.970 --> 05:45.730]  Well, Ropp, the most haughtiest of congratulations are in order for this thing actually being pulled off.
[05:45.730 --> 05:55.750]  Let me start by asking you, what were the concerns of the organizers of how, from the get-go, and did those concerns turn out to be warranted?
[05:57.370 --> 06:03.830]  The only concern I really had is, oh, my God, what will happen if these 3,000 to 4,000 people really show up?
[06:03.950 --> 06:07.750]  We were beginning to expect when ticket sales went so well.
[06:08.350 --> 06:10.870]  Three ticket sales went to 1,800.
[06:11.790 --> 06:15.850]  And that's what we started worrying, like, oh, my God, there's more than 3,000 people going to show up.
[06:17.790 --> 06:24.010]  And we didn't want it to turn into some kind of zoo where the people had no sense of belonging or community or anything.
[06:25.170 --> 06:26.550]  So that was the main concern.
[06:28.470 --> 06:41.330]  The other thing, of course, was computer break-ins, defacements, all kinds of stuff happening from the field, sort of becoming the major media story or police attention or something.
[06:41.490 --> 06:42.570]  We didn't want any of that.
[06:44.630 --> 06:47.450]  And I assume none of that actually wound up happening.
[06:49.030 --> 06:50.030]  Sorry, come again?
[06:50.310 --> 06:52.350]  I assume none of that actually wound up happening?
[06:53.390 --> 06:54.990]  No, none of that actually happened.
[06:56.630 --> 07:02.970]  There was no incidents, no computer break-ins, no defacements that we know of happened from the field.
[07:03.210 --> 07:11.350]  So the major media story was mostly about, hey, these hackers aren't all about breaking the law or break-ins or web defacements.
[07:11.510 --> 07:13.310]  There's something more there in that community.
[07:13.430 --> 07:20.850]  So we basically forced them to focus on something other than crimes or mischief.
[07:22.490 --> 07:26.410]  Now, I was somebody who was there for most of it.
[07:26.650 --> 07:30.690]  But you were there pretty much for at least a year beforehand.
[07:31.490 --> 07:35.450]  And you certainly saw everything that was going on behind the scenes.
[07:36.890 --> 07:38.930]  That's an image I have to correct a little bit.
[07:38.930 --> 07:45.430]  I wasn't so much involved in the pre-HAL stages as I was during previous conventions.
[07:45.910 --> 07:52.410]  There's two people that have actually done much more work than I have in the half year or three quarters of a year before HAL.
[07:53.250 --> 07:58.610]  Gerrit Hiddink and Erik Slachmilders did most of the preliminary work.
[07:59.950 --> 08:07.490]  And the team of other people that started doing things didn't really get involved until a month before HAL.
[08:08.770 --> 08:15.170]  I mean, we had meetings, but most of the work in the preliminary phases was done by Gerrit Hiddink.
[08:16.050 --> 08:29.310]  I don't think I've ever seen a community of organizers, including the HAL conferences, I don't think I've ever seen a group work so well together as far as actually pulling something like this off.
[08:29.390 --> 08:31.090]  Because it was a major, major event.
[08:31.890 --> 08:41.890]  You not only put together a network, you not only got speakers and people to show up, but you actually physically were building buildings.
[08:42.450 --> 08:46.230]  I mean, it's something I don't think we could even conceive of back in the States.
[08:46.530 --> 08:46.990]  I don't know.
[08:47.070 --> 08:48.150]  Jimmy Carter's pretty good at it.
[08:48.530 --> 08:49.930]  Yeah, but Jimmy Carter isn't a hacker.
[08:50.030 --> 08:50.870]  He doesn't work with us.
[08:50.870 --> 08:53.990]  Oh, he's definitely a hack, but we won't go further than that.
[08:54.250 --> 08:54.750]  Just have to.
[08:54.810 --> 08:55.930]  You can't help yourself.
[08:55.930 --> 08:56.770]  No, I can't resist.
[08:57.190 --> 08:57.370]  Yeah.
[08:58.370 --> 09:04.030]  But, Isaac, I mean, Rob, how smoothly did things really go during the whole conference?
[09:05.070 --> 09:05.910]  Pretty smoothly.
[09:06.130 --> 09:09.030]  We didn't run into any major problems, but this is a...
[09:09.810 --> 09:13.650]  You have to consider that this is like the perfect audience to organize things for.
[09:14.570 --> 09:20.270]  This is an audience that is almost self-organizing to a scary degree.
[09:20.870 --> 09:35.350]  There is a problem somewhere, and as organizers, you come to the problem three minutes later, and there's a complete structure in place, manned by total strangers that have not only solved the problem, but have also made sure that it won't happen again.
[09:35.770 --> 09:40.370]  And this is a self-organizing crowd to a very large degree.
[09:40.570 --> 09:42.670]  Yeah, that's the quality of the attendee you have there.
[09:43.190 --> 09:43.490]  Yeah.
[09:44.170 --> 09:46.630]  Why do you think the quality of the attendee is so high there?
[09:51.170 --> 09:56.790]  Maybe because it's only once every four years, and because they know they have to do quite a bit of stuff themselves.
[09:57.830 --> 10:07.770]  For one, they have to sleep in a tent instead of in a hotel, so they know they're going to have to build up their own tent, and they're going to have to make their own sort of little camp so they can have coffee in the morning.
[10:08.110 --> 10:19.510]  And so by forcing people to think about what can I do there for my own small little group, you tend to have a high degree of self-organization to begin with.
[10:21.170 --> 10:24.170]  So, and I think it's a tradition.
[10:24.470 --> 10:26.450]  This has been built over 12 years.
[10:27.230 --> 10:42.950]  Four years is, for me, a very nice interval because you can get volunteers that are completely overworked, and they wouldn't want to be this overworked every year, or they would want money for it, or they'd start to think, my God, why am I doing this?
[10:42.950 --> 10:44.430]  I'm not even enjoying all this work.
[10:44.690 --> 10:47.090]  And yet, if you do it every four years, it's fun.
[10:47.330 --> 10:48.890]  You think, wow, we're going to do that.
[10:49.130 --> 10:50.950]  We're going to pull that off again.
[10:51.390 --> 10:53.290]  If you did it every year, it'd be normal.
[10:54.170 --> 10:59.510]  Now, were there problems before the conference with authorities trying to stop it?
[11:00.170 --> 11:08.890]  Yeah, we had the Dutch computer crime police for the eastern part of Holland, and they basically tried to kill it.
[11:09.210 --> 11:22.990]  They sent letters, basically, on the chief police commissioner level to the, what do you call it in English, the board of deans of the university.
[11:23.290 --> 11:23.630]  Okay.
[11:24.590 --> 11:31.850]  Basically telling them that they would be accomplices to any computer crime that happened there, just because they gave us the field and the connectivity.
[11:33.610 --> 11:34.750]  And how did they do that?
[11:37.390 --> 11:42.710]  We reacted by talking to them and being friendly and showing that we weren't criminals.
[11:43.690 --> 11:47.730]  And we basically told them that nothing, in our expectation, nothing was going to go wrong.
[11:49.790 --> 11:51.450]  And nothing, nothing really did.
[11:52.350 --> 12:01.290]  No, this crowd was well behaved and this crowd was about organizing stuff and building stuff and not so much about destruction and mayhem.
[12:02.470 --> 12:06.690]  Which is a nice, it's nice to show that this community isn't so much about destruction.
[12:06.950 --> 12:14.410]  If you get these people together and you give them something positive to do, then they'll go and do the positive thing instead of creating destruction.
[12:14.410 --> 12:22.010]  Which, in a way, is a lesson for, not only for these couple of thousand people, but for a whole generation, of course.
[12:22.690 --> 12:23.310]  I agree.
[12:24.030 --> 12:29.330]  Stop putting these people in prison or criminalizing them, but instead give them something positive to do and they'll do it.
[12:30.430 --> 12:32.590]  Now, I know a lot of media people were there.
[12:32.690 --> 12:34.130]  Do you think the media got that message?
[12:36.010 --> 12:40.610]  The smart people did, but there's plenty of stupid media, as you well know.
[12:41.250 --> 12:46.450]  There's plenty of media that wanted to focus on the computer crime part, even though it wasn't there.
[12:47.250 --> 12:52.790]  So, these people are just here talking about computer crimes so they can go back home and do the crimes there, right?
[12:54.930 --> 12:56.670]  They just have to focus on that.
[12:56.870 --> 13:10.710]  They just cannot focus on the fact that this is a community that may know a lot about security and they may have had some wild times when they were young, but these people aren't about doing crime.
[13:10.890 --> 13:17.270]  They're about this whole philosophy of building stuff and figuring out and learning.
[13:18.850 --> 13:21.830]  Isaac, did you see any press coverage back in the United States about this?
[13:22.130 --> 13:33.330]  Someone sent an article to OTH at 2600.com, actually, or a link, rather, from VNU Business Publications Limited by James Middleton, and Hackers at Large on Best Behavior.
[13:33.970 --> 13:39.890]  Attendees registering for the event this weekend were warned, do not do anything naughty because the internal security service is watching you.
[13:40.070 --> 13:41.670]  If you get caught, you will go to prison.
[13:42.110 --> 13:46.770]  The HAL team was also keen to dispel the stereotype of hackers as criminals intent on cyber vandalism.
[13:47.190 --> 13:53.490]  Powerful people all over the world would like to paint a picture of HAL 2001 as a gathering of dangerous individuals out to destroy, the organizers said.
[13:53.810 --> 13:58.010]  They care about making us look like a threat so they can get the public support needed to lock us all up.
[13:58.270 --> 14:07.310]  Unlike the smoke bombs and university-style pranks at DEF CON, well, HAL attempted to show the mature side of hacking by encouraging script kitties and cyber vandals to grow up.
[14:07.490 --> 14:09.950]  The post-script kitty existence offers many rewards.
[14:10.110 --> 14:17.650]  You might have a feeling you've done something useful more often, people won't look at you funny, and you might even meet the girls, one of the organizers said.
[14:20.470 --> 14:22.350]  Well, it sounds like positive press.
[14:22.430 --> 14:23.250]  Oh, it's positive press.
[14:24.430 --> 14:25.410]  I've sure enjoyed it.
[14:25.470 --> 14:25.930]  I'm actually...
[14:25.930 --> 14:28.290]  I'm regretting very much not going, you know, if...
[14:28.290 --> 14:33.950]  You know, I can't believe you actually didn't show up, I mean, I know you kept saying that you weren't going to come, but I really thought you were joking.
[14:34.130 --> 14:35.050]  I hope...
[14:35.050 --> 14:36.030]  I wished I was joking.
[14:36.250 --> 14:51.590]  You know, one of the other aspects that probably makes a lot more calm, besides the fact that I know I would have loved to pitch the tent and get into, you know, roll up your sleeves and actually make the conference work on a personal level, but I don't get to see Rob very often,
[14:51.790 --> 14:52.250]  you know?
[14:52.810 --> 14:55.130]  It's always good to, like, hang out with him.
[14:55.230 --> 15:02.150]  Obviously not now while he's in the bath, but, you know, to be able to go and say hi and see all the folks in Europe that I know, and it...
[15:02.150 --> 15:03.590]  Well, I'm regretting not going.
[15:04.190 --> 15:06.090]  And you will regret that for the rest of your life.
[15:06.190 --> 15:06.670]  Yes, I will.
[15:06.730 --> 15:08.890]  But as will many people who did not show up.
[15:09.010 --> 15:13.350]  We're speaking with Rob from Amsterdam, who was one of the...
[15:13.730 --> 15:20.890]  many organizers, obviously, of HAL 2001 and deserves a great deal of congratulations for being pulled off so successfully.
[15:21.230 --> 15:30.670]  AutoJack joined us now, also from Paris, who was a first-time visitor to Europe and obviously a first-time attendee of the Dutch conferences.
[15:31.370 --> 15:32.690]  AutoJack, what were your impressions?
[15:34.050 --> 15:35.050]  Well, let me think.
[15:35.290 --> 15:37.870]  I don't really want to say too much because I got a little bit of a cold.
[15:38.530 --> 15:41.370]  And also, there's like Halloween going crazy on this phone.
[15:41.930 --> 15:43.650]  But, I don't know.
[15:43.730 --> 16:00.530]  It was great to see people from all over the world and friends from the states getting together, building this small city, and having probably the most interesting and well-organized conference I think I've ever been to.
[16:02.290 --> 16:06.030]  Much different from many of the conferences that I've been to in the United States.
[16:07.810 --> 16:09.910]  There weren't a whole lot of problems with security.
[16:10.330 --> 16:11.850]  Nobody was stealing anything.
[16:12.270 --> 16:16.190]  Nobody was, I don't know, doing stupid pranks and so on and so forth.
[16:18.830 --> 16:19.370]  I don't know.
[16:19.410 --> 16:21.450]  I got a kick out of the outdoor urinals.
[16:23.830 --> 16:24.910]  I don't know.
[16:25.230 --> 16:26.250]  That was something.
[16:26.450 --> 16:28.610]  Just so that people know what that's all about.
[16:29.170 --> 16:30.970]  I mean, the porta-potties were great.
[16:31.250 --> 16:36.390]  But something I've never seen, I guess, in the United States were actually outdoor urinals, you know, four to a side.
[16:36.550 --> 16:37.710]  I mean, four sides.
[16:38.270 --> 16:41.110]  People would actually walk up to them and use them out in the open.
[16:41.510 --> 16:43.290]  I don't know if I would fly in the United States.
[16:46.310 --> 16:48.450]  I don't know if I have anything more to say about this.
[16:48.610 --> 16:51.170]  But yeah, I had a really great time while I was there.
[16:52.730 --> 16:55.130]  Now I'm going to go cough in the bathroom.
[16:56.130 --> 16:58.130]  Yeah, unfortunately, lots of people got sick.
[16:58.310 --> 17:02.610]  But I think it was from just traveling around all the time.
[17:03.390 --> 17:03.930]  Bernie S.
[17:04.030 --> 17:04.850]  was also another person.
[17:05.030 --> 17:05.830]  Is Bernie on the line?
[17:06.610 --> 17:07.450]  Now he is.
[17:07.910 --> 17:08.730]  Ah, Bernie, are you there?
[17:09.290 --> 17:10.190]  I am here.
[17:10.410 --> 17:12.550]  Well, now, you're also present.
[17:13.650 --> 17:16.250]  And what were your impressions of the conference?
[17:16.610 --> 17:18.130]  I was bowled over, Emmanuel.
[17:18.290 --> 17:21.330]  This was an amazing conference for me.
[17:22.050 --> 17:37.410]  Certainly, the most interesting computer network I've ever seen was hundreds, no, maybe thousands of tents that stretched out for many an acre with Ethernet cabling and power run to every single one of them.
[17:37.850 --> 17:39.230]  It was pretty amazing.
[17:39.610 --> 18:02.810]  And just the venue on the open university campus with not many buildings, but just a feeling of openness with open sky and green grass and friendly people from all over the world with common interests and common values was really heartening.
[18:03.050 --> 18:20.250]  There might not have been a lot of press in the U.S., and I wasn't here, so I don't know, but in Holland, I met several people who had nothing to do with the conference who'd heard of it and were very excited about it and had read very positive news reports in the local newspapers and television about how.
[18:22.150 --> 18:24.350]  And that was surprising.
[18:24.610 --> 18:32.870]  And none of them had the slightest bit of negativity in their voice about a hacker conference.
[18:33.150 --> 18:35.010]  They all thought it was a good idea.
[18:35.210 --> 18:37.050]  And that's what really surprised me.
[18:37.150 --> 18:39.870]  I can't imagine U.S.
[18:39.950 --> 18:43.870]  media trying to put a positive spin on such a positive event.
[18:44.270 --> 18:47.310]  But in Holland, that's exactly what happened.
[18:48.190 --> 18:49.510]  All right, can I turn this around?
[18:49.850 --> 18:56.470]  We've spent like 15 minutes now talking about how calm and interesting and cool and collected it was and how no one was doing illegal stuff.
[18:56.610 --> 18:57.370]  What happened?
[18:57.470 --> 18:58.310]  What was really cool?
[18:58.510 --> 18:59.390]  What did you most enjoy?
[18:59.490 --> 19:02.590]  Did they have a lockpicking group again in the whole nine yards?
[19:02.830 --> 19:04.430]  Actually, it's interesting you should mention that.
[19:04.430 --> 19:06.610]  I spent a bit of time in the lockpicking tent.
[19:07.030 --> 19:08.350]  There's a whole big...
[19:08.350 --> 19:11.470]  You know, all the organizations had their own big tents.
[19:11.570 --> 19:15.370]  The Chaos Communications Computer Club tent was huge.
[19:15.730 --> 19:16.470]  It was a dome.
[19:17.110 --> 19:26.290]  And right outside the dome was the monolith for 2001, which if you walked up to it would make noise and do all kinds of crazy things.
[19:26.930 --> 19:29.310]  And then there were light shows coming from other places.
[19:29.810 --> 19:31.830]  But yeah, the lockpicking tent was really cool.
[19:31.950 --> 19:37.670]  We walked in there and there were just a bunch of people, maybe, what did you say, autoject?
[19:37.790 --> 19:44.530]  Maybe like 20 people just quietly sitting around fumbling with locks trying to put them.
[19:44.730 --> 19:44.770]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[19:45.110 --> 19:47.090]  It was really something to see.
[19:47.210 --> 19:49.590]  And London 2600 had a tent there.
[19:50.830 --> 19:57.650]  All kinds of groups were present with their own either small tents or huge tents.
[19:57.730 --> 19:59.190]  And some of the tents really, really were huge.
[19:59.470 --> 20:03.130]  The main tent, of course, being the biggest of all.
[20:03.250 --> 20:08.450]  That was actually a building that was constructed days before the event, correct?
[20:09.370 --> 20:14.210]  Yeah, it was a large aluminum tent structure that was erected.
[20:14.270 --> 20:21.750]  It was exactly 20 by 50 meters, whatever that works out in elbows and inches and crazy measures.
[20:22.610 --> 20:24.310]  It's big is what it works out to.
[20:25.590 --> 20:27.230]  It's just really, really big.
[20:27.710 --> 20:28.230]  Yeah, yeah.
[20:28.350 --> 20:37.630]  It was a huge tent and then there was a slightly smaller but still 20 by 40 or 20 by 35 tent for the restaurant and big lecture place.
[20:38.210 --> 20:39.890]  Now, that's a question I've had.
[20:40.030 --> 20:40.750]  How is the food?
[20:41.430 --> 20:43.230]  What's the food situation there?
[20:45.730 --> 20:47.950]  We had our own catering.
[20:48.810 --> 20:52.130]  Basically, simple meals but with vegetables and stuff.
[20:52.270 --> 21:05.710]  And then there was an entrepreneur that had put up different style like a french fries place and there was pizza slices and there was African food of some kind.
[21:06.170 --> 21:13.110]  It's a whole weekend with food with friends out on a field and a gigabit line that goes directly to the network.
[21:13.690 --> 21:15.830]  We never maxed out our bandwidth.
[21:16.450 --> 21:20.890]  We counted we never went over 200 something megabits Wow.
[21:20.890 --> 21:24.230]  and we weren't internally congested at that time.
[21:24.770 --> 21:29.130]  So, we were actually we claimed to be the first hacker conference with enough bandwidth.
[21:29.230 --> 21:29.790]  With enough bandwidth.
[21:30.190 --> 21:51.250]  Yeah, I think you definitely have that distinction because when I was walking around in the huge tent there must have been several hundred people there all connected with their laptops and the wireless LAN and I was able to connect to machines very quickly quicker than I can from my home from Verizon territory.
[21:52.110 --> 21:55.810]  No problem no lag nothing and it all worked very smoothly.
[21:55.970 --> 21:58.090]  Did it go down for any particular amount of time?
[21:58.690 --> 22:04.670]  Yeah, we had some there were some minor problems with people spoofing ARP in the main tent Yeah.
[22:06.090 --> 22:15.910]  We basically imprinted the idea on them that if they wanted to be man in the middle for our network then they should at least have the man in the middle machine up before they started spoofing the ARP.
[22:18.130 --> 22:21.010]  Move the packets move the packets Exactly.
[22:21.910 --> 22:32.410]  So that was a bit of a bummer but it didn't last long and we had some problems on the wireless network because we maxed it out.
[22:32.770 --> 22:44.530]  We had something like 20 base stations using all frequencies pretty fine mesh and we had I think we had six or seven hundred separate wireless machines online.
[22:44.830 --> 22:45.230]  Wow.
[22:45.730 --> 22:47.030]  That's probably a first too.
[22:47.510 --> 22:51.130]  That basically maxes out the 802.11 standard.
[22:51.450 --> 22:51.610]  Yeah.
[22:52.290 --> 22:58.010]  Now in addition to the main tent the wireless networks spread out all throughout the campground as well?
[22:59.390 --> 23:01.370]  So you had all these people inside their tent.
[23:01.510 --> 23:01.890]  It was great.
[23:01.910 --> 23:05.990]  I was walking down the field and you'd see these tents with windows.
[23:06.230 --> 23:07.750]  I mean little plastic windows.
[23:08.230 --> 23:15.430]  People sitting there with desks and full setups and their PCs just communicating online and sitting in the middle of the field in the tent.
[23:16.530 --> 23:17.470]  Yeah, it was fun.
[23:17.810 --> 23:24.910]  But it was great to actually have enough bandwidth to where the internet would be better than what you have at home no matter where you live.
[23:25.250 --> 23:25.810]  That's pretty wild.
[23:26.350 --> 23:26.470]  Yeah.
[23:26.530 --> 23:30.010]  Which is a credit to your chief of network operations, CNO...
[23:30.010 --> 23:32.230]  Oh man, I forgot how to pronounce his name.
[23:32.890 --> 23:33.090]  Albert.
[23:33.530 --> 23:33.670]  Albert.
[23:34.550 --> 23:34.830]  Thank you.
[23:34.830 --> 23:34.870]  Thank you.
[23:34.870 --> 23:36.930]  Yeah, he did a tremendous job.
[23:37.430 --> 23:42.210]  And also, of course, having the university there was a tremendous advantage, correct?
[23:42.810 --> 23:49.530]  Yeah, we had a gigabit line that we could not have afforded or even have put in most of the places.
[23:49.950 --> 23:52.450]  How do you convince a university to do something like that?
[23:52.530 --> 23:55.950]  How would we convince a university in the United States to be that nice to us?
[23:58.110 --> 24:10.290]  I think there's a lot of people in universities here that realize hackers have done something positive and that has something to do with the way the internet came about or at least the public internet came about in Holland.
[24:12.750 --> 24:22.810]  We, as Hacktake, the magazine back then, were largely responsible for wiring the country up in terms of public dial-up and public access.
[24:23.710 --> 24:25.630]  That has been remembered, I guess.
[24:26.010 --> 24:29.330]  It's given hackers a different name than they have in some other countries.
[24:30.190 --> 24:37.830]  Apart from that, we just network well, we do good contacts and there's always a few friends in some organization somewhere.
[24:38.130 --> 24:41.290]  We are, I would say, pretty well infiltrated all over.
[24:43.010 --> 24:48.710]  Jeff is in the studio with us and he was also there in Holland.
[24:49.470 --> 24:50.830]  Jeff, what were your impressions?
[24:51.350 --> 24:57.110]  I felt that the whole thing was, just from being in another country, it was surreal.
[24:57.350 --> 25:02.330]  And to be in that environment where you do walk up to toilets that are outside and just use them.
[25:02.930 --> 25:04.150]  Why is that so fascinating?
[25:04.410 --> 25:05.410]  It's not fascinating.
[25:05.650 --> 25:07.670]  It just, it made life so much easier.
[25:07.970 --> 25:11.070]  You know, you just took care of what you needed to do and moved on.
[25:12.210 --> 25:21.070]  Some of the other things that were there that we haven't mentioned yet, they had set up and gotten a license for, and really, Bernie should talk more about this.
[25:21.070 --> 25:21.830]  This is his area.
[25:22.010 --> 25:29.450]  But they set up a radio station and got a license just for the event, just for that period of time.
[25:29.790 --> 25:33.390]  And they were constantly broadcasting during the entire event.
[25:33.790 --> 25:37.730]  You could sign up and actually do a segment on the radio show.
[25:37.870 --> 25:44.330]  They had blocks of time available, and if you had something you needed to do or say or play, you went in, signed up, and you did it.
[25:45.250 --> 25:51.290]  The other thing that was very nice to see was the use of the Hal cache.
[25:51.990 --> 25:57.710]  All of the food and drinks and things that you wanted to do, you'd go into the tent.
[25:57.930 --> 26:02.090]  They had one place that you would pay for and get your cards.
[26:02.310 --> 26:10.230]  And then as you purchased your hamburger or whatever, they'd mark your card off, and you just kept your card in your pocket.
[26:10.370 --> 26:11.890]  No money had to change hands.
[26:13.250 --> 26:20.750]  The other interesting thing was the currency over there is guilders, which is about one guilder, I think we figured it was about 40 cents.
[26:22.830 --> 26:26.210]  And there were a lot of other things, too, that were done.
[26:26.370 --> 26:29.030]  I brought a bunch of pictures in to share with the guys here.
[26:29.290 --> 26:30.570]  Oh, yeah, let's try the pictures.
[26:32.430 --> 26:34.170]  Need I remind you this is radio?
[26:34.430 --> 26:35.030]  Oh, damn.
[26:35.810 --> 26:39.790]  We could do a WeFax to move it out, but FCC doesn't like that.
[26:40.070 --> 26:51.310]  There was one tent that had power pong, which basically was two bicycles set up that you actually used to run the old game pong.
[26:51.590 --> 27:00.290]  The handle bars were how you moved the little bar up and down the side, and depending on how fast you pedaled, that's how fast the little ball moved.
[27:00.490 --> 27:04.850]  And this was a great way to play a computer game and get your exercise at the same time.
[27:05.210 --> 27:07.890]  No doubt it was kind of difficult to try to coordinate that too.
[27:08.810 --> 27:09.630]  Pretty good.
[27:09.950 --> 27:11.190]  What is that car?
[27:11.570 --> 27:13.330]  We took pictures.
[27:14.570 --> 27:16.910]  Barry the Key was good enough to point out.
[27:17.010 --> 27:17.370]  Barry!
[27:17.550 --> 27:17.850]  Yes.
[27:17.950 --> 27:18.890]  There's another person I missed.
[27:19.690 --> 27:27.770]  He pointed out all of the unmarked cars, so we thought for public awareness we should actually get photographs so that we could let people know.
[27:27.990 --> 27:29.630]  which was which.
[27:30.760 --> 27:32.350]  How does Barry always know?
[27:32.730 --> 27:33.770]  Because he's Barry.
[27:34.150 --> 27:36.890]  Yeah, he's a big radio guy.
[27:37.270 --> 27:38.050]  Yeah, he sure is.
[27:39.130 --> 27:48.630]  I brought a photograph too of the Starium oh gosh the voice encryption.
[27:49.800 --> 27:52.730]  They had one of the prototypes there.
[27:53.600 --> 27:57.430]  There was at night there was a lot of fire breathing going on.
[27:57.430 --> 28:00.290]  Yeah, that was quite something to behold.
[28:01.250 --> 28:02.510]  That's a regular carnival.
[28:03.150 --> 28:04.810]  Oh, it was amazing.
[28:04.810 --> 28:06.470]  And there's your photo of the toilets.
[28:06.790 --> 28:08.270]  What is it with these toilets?
[28:09.050 --> 28:09.910]  Hold that one up.
[28:09.950 --> 28:10.330]  Let's see that.
[28:10.450 --> 28:10.810]  There you go.
[28:11.890 --> 28:12.330]  Wow.
[28:12.330 --> 28:13.890]  What is this fascination with?
[28:14.030 --> 28:14.670]  Okay, fine.
[28:14.770 --> 28:14.930]  Whatever.
[28:15.270 --> 28:16.010]  We gave these a name.
[28:16.390 --> 28:17.950]  We called them Phillips heads.
[28:18.570 --> 28:19.370]  Phillips heads.
[28:21.310 --> 28:22.810]  That would make sense.
[28:22.810 --> 28:25.130]  The partition does look like a Phillips head screwdriver.
[28:26.230 --> 28:26.930]  Not bad.
[28:27.870 --> 28:31.110]  The Indian Media Center had a huge tent there as well.
[28:31.510 --> 28:33.050]  They were all connected to the net.
[28:33.510 --> 28:35.730]  It was just like being in the Indian Media Center in New York.
[28:36.530 --> 28:37.870]  It sure felt the same way.
[28:38.270 --> 28:40.270]  Chaos and general disorder?
[28:40.570 --> 28:42.850]  For the most part, but a good kind of disorder.
[28:43.070 --> 28:45.510]  The kind of creative disorder that actually leads to things.
[28:52.810 --> 28:53.370]  They were huge.
[28:53.670 --> 28:54.090]  Surplus.
[28:54.570 --> 28:54.910]  Yeah.
[28:56.090 --> 29:03.290]  And you just realize everyone's creativity goes into the way that they set up their own little house, their own little tent in that area.
[29:04.270 --> 29:07.390]  And individuality, of course, being a major part of the hacker world.
[29:08.770 --> 29:09.430]  Not bad.
[29:09.690 --> 29:10.830]  We are all individuals.
[29:12.550 --> 29:13.010]  Correct.
[29:14.230 --> 29:17.530]  Does anyone have anything else to add to the...
[29:17.530 --> 29:18.710]  Ernie, where are you?
[29:19.090 --> 29:19.870]  I'm right here.
[29:19.990 --> 29:31.050]  I wanted to mention, we haven't really even discussed the what seemed to be about a hundred fascinating programs that went on during this multi-day event.
[29:31.390 --> 29:32.190]  Yeah, that is important.
[29:32.850 --> 29:34.990]  There were literally dozens.
[29:35.230 --> 29:35.790]  I mean, how many...
[29:35.790 --> 29:37.470]  Rob, about how many panels...
[29:37.470 --> 29:43.210]  How many different programs or discussions went on in the different locations there?
[29:45.910 --> 29:46.810]  Not sure I know.
[29:46.950 --> 29:50.590]  We had four venues, but the fourth was shared in the restaurants.
[29:50.590 --> 29:51.850]  We didn't have so much.
[29:51.850 --> 29:54.910]  So really, basically three major venues.
[29:55.890 --> 30:03.890]  And they basically went continuous from 10 in the morning to 11 at night or 10 at night.
[30:05.190 --> 30:11.450]  There were literally dozens of fascinating topics being discussed at each of these venues.
[30:11.490 --> 30:22.470]  And the only thing I didn't like about the conference, which was unavoidable, was that many of these discussions had to overlap with others.
[30:22.790 --> 30:32.430]  So I had to really make some difficult choices between hearing, participating in this discussion or listening to this particular program or getting in on that one.
[30:32.710 --> 30:39.910]  But I squeezed in quite a lot of material in the three days that I was there.
[30:39.910 --> 30:51.350]  And it was just a mind-blowing amount of information from people on the front lines of Hackerton talking about issues that interested us all.
[30:51.550 --> 30:55.930]  Were there any particular topics that interested you, Emmanuel, that you wanted to touch on?
[30:57.510 --> 30:59.570]  Well, there were a lot.
[30:59.750 --> 31:05.970]  I mean, I did a few panels myself, which kind of kept me from wandering around too much to look at other things.
[31:05.970 --> 31:17.730]  But there were a number of interesting panelists from Phil Zimmerman to John Gilmore who were doing presentations on all kinds of computer or social related issues.
[31:17.970 --> 31:24.230]  And I liked the way that the different topics were all kind of related.
[31:24.530 --> 31:26.270]  You know, it was very diverse.
[31:26.650 --> 31:35.210]  It wasn't all like, you know, a technical session, something that someone with no real background in computers would completely be lost in.
[31:35.210 --> 31:43.330]  And if there was something that you didn't particularly like in one area, there was almost always something in another area that you might like.
[31:44.310 --> 31:50.810]  I was really impressed with the Internet broadcast that was going on, the real audio, real video.
[31:51.690 --> 31:57.130]  We were able to sit in one panel and be able to watch what was going on at another panel.
[31:58.510 --> 31:59.910]  And it was excellent.
[32:00.110 --> 32:01.650]  I was really impressed by that.
[32:02.210 --> 32:13.370]  Yeah, there was one time to be more impressed with the video broadcasting over the Internet, it should be mentioned that the guy that coordinated that was actually replaced somebody the day before Hal.
[32:15.190 --> 32:15.850]  Right on.
[32:16.190 --> 32:16.430]  Wow.
[32:17.030 --> 32:17.410]  Pretty good.
[32:17.690 --> 32:23.790]  There was one panel where we were sitting in the panel and we said, well, let's see if there's anything better on.
[32:23.970 --> 32:32.510]  And we simply went on the wireless network with the laptop and just started channel surfing to see what else was playing at that particular time.
[32:32.750 --> 32:37.270]  And then we saw John Gilmore was giving a talk and we said, hey, let's go to John Gilmore and see him.
[32:37.490 --> 32:43.890]  And so we walked into the next room and there was John Gilmore just as he was on TV or on the real video player or whatever it was.
[32:45.030 --> 32:48.650]  And I'd never seen anything work so smoothly at a hacker conference ever.
[32:48.870 --> 33:02.090]  And if you're just tuning in, we're here with Emmanuel, Rob, Autojack, and Bernie S discussing the HAL 2001 conference just this past weekend in the beautiful Netherlands at the campus of Twente University.
[33:02.510 --> 33:05.350]  And those splashing noises, I believe, are Rapp in his bathtub.
[33:05.430 --> 33:06.130]  Is that correct, Rob?
[33:06.950 --> 33:09.650]  I haven't made any splashing noises for a while, have I?
[33:10.150 --> 33:11.850]  Oh, I heard some splashing noises.
[33:11.970 --> 33:12.770]  I can make some.
[33:12.830 --> 33:13.030]  Yes.
[33:13.650 --> 33:15.330]  Unfortunately, I can't do anything about that.
[33:15.450 --> 33:18.470]  We've only got the two pots for the phones and four people.
[33:18.710 --> 33:25.290]  If you hear very loud street noise, let me know because we're currently on a busy intersection in Paris.
[33:25.290 --> 33:30.450]  So, there's a lot of people screaming and honking their horns, which I guess is what people do here.
[33:30.830 --> 33:31.850]  I can close the window.
[33:32.070 --> 33:33.990]  Yeah, we can close the window if it gets too loud.
[33:34.130 --> 33:34.850]  Yeah, that tends to work.
[33:35.550 --> 33:39.110]  Well, since we do have such a distinguished panel here, I got some news articles.
[33:39.250 --> 33:41.550]  This is one of the few nights I've actually prepared for a show.
[33:41.950 --> 33:42.230]  Wow.
[33:42.430 --> 33:43.090]  Isn't that something?
[33:43.110 --> 33:43.750]  This is a red-letter day.
[33:43.750 --> 33:46.530]  I've got paper in front of me, and it's a wonderful thing.
[33:48.930 --> 33:49.650]  Recent story.
[33:50.550 --> 33:54.330]  Note on NSA's duals, counter-mode of Encryption.
[33:55.830 --> 34:10.950]  Evidently, the NSA proposed a method for, or rather, a mode for the Advanced Encryption Cipher, AES, known as Rindahl, spelled R-I-J-N-D-A-E-L for Mr. Schwartow.
[34:11.630 --> 34:18.050]  The dual-counter-mode was submitted for consideration as an AES mode of operation by M.
[34:18.150 --> 34:18.890]  Boyle and C.
[34:19.010 --> 34:20.610]  Salter of the National Security Agency.
[34:20.610 --> 34:35.350]  They are insecure with respect to both secrecy and integrity in the face of chosen plain-text attacks, say, Donescu, Gligor, and Wagner, in a paper that's available at Cryptome.org.
[34:35.950 --> 34:37.670]  This raises an interesting question.
[34:37.690 --> 34:42.890]  Is the NSA just getting stupid, or is the NSA thinking that we're too stupid out here in academia?
[34:43.110 --> 34:43.570]  Thoughts?
[34:46.130 --> 34:46.550]  Anybody?
[34:47.150 --> 34:53.770]  I'm sure the NSA knew up front that these algorithms may not be as secure as people thought they were.
[34:54.930 --> 34:59.370]  So the desire was to get an insecure algorithm out there so they can continue to read mail?
[34:59.590 --> 35:05.990]  Well, the NSA certainly doesn't want the public, the general public in the United States or the world at large, using secure encryption.
[35:06.170 --> 35:06.910]  I mean, that's a given.
[35:06.910 --> 35:15.770]  Their job is to monitor plain text and plain speech and all these things.
[35:15.910 --> 35:20.690]  And if it's encrypted, they will do whatever they have to do to obtain that information.
[35:20.690 --> 35:29.430]  So obviously, they don't want us all using secure encryption, and they'll advise us to use anything and lie and say it's secure when it's not, or whatever they have to do.
[35:29.810 --> 35:40.550]  Well, the interesting thing that happened here is that after the academic researchers here published their results on what was pretty much a laughable mode that these guys submitted, they withdrew it.
[35:40.870 --> 35:46.410]  Which makes me wonder whether or not they were even legitimately trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.
[35:46.430 --> 35:47.970]  I think some kind of mistake happened.
[35:48.290 --> 35:52.250]  I can't explain it, but it's a very strange sort of thing.
[35:52.990 --> 35:54.790]  Legitimately trying to pull the wool over people's eyes?
[35:55.190 --> 35:57.030]  Well, no, I have...
[35:57.830 --> 36:00.110]  All right, bad choice of term.
[36:00.690 --> 36:04.870]  If they were trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, they could have done a much better job.
[36:06.690 --> 36:07.930]  If that was their goal.
[36:08.310 --> 36:09.750]  Anyhow, got another one for you here.
[36:10.350 --> 36:13.330]  Solar plane sets new altitude record by Reuters.
[36:14.010 --> 36:19.310]  Solar-powered flying wings soared past previous altitude records for non-rocket-powered aircraft on Monday.
[36:19.550 --> 36:23.190]  NASA officials hoped that it would reach a maximum height of 100,000 feet.
[36:23.970 --> 36:26.570]  Helios reached 85,100 feet.
[36:26.810 --> 36:38.350]  The Helios prototype, driven by 14 propellers, turned by two small, two-horsepower electric motors, was believed to be capable of reaching 103,000 feet under ideal weather conditions.
[36:38.590 --> 36:45.730]  Since the atmosphere at 100,000 feet is similar to the Martian atmosphere, Helios will help engineers plan Mars aircraft designs.
[36:46.750 --> 36:48.370]  Isaac, they didn't lose it, did they?
[36:48.430 --> 36:49.510]  They didn't go into orbit or something?
[36:49.930 --> 36:51.210]  No, not to my knowledge.
[36:51.390 --> 36:52.950]  But it opens an interesting possibility.
[36:53.710 --> 37:02.310]  Say a conference, we're able to put something like that together and have it, you know, take off and do some interesting radio relays.
[37:02.310 --> 37:04.730]  Would that be something for HAL 2005?
[37:05.990 --> 37:12.670]  There was, as a matter of fact, Isaac, a balloon that some of the hackers at HAL had launched.
[37:12.690 --> 37:17.710]  It was a helium balloon with a Cat 5 tether.
[37:18.290 --> 37:25.270]  And it was relaying video, actually video frames, in real time.
[37:27.470 --> 37:31.430]  And anybody could see what the balloon was seeing at that given moment.
[37:31.790 --> 37:34.470]  And it was fairly high over the campgrounds.
[37:34.510 --> 37:43.190]  You could probably see any given tent that wasn't obscured by trees from the shots that were being taken by this balloon.
[37:43.230 --> 37:44.450]  I thought that was a really clever hack.
[37:44.650 --> 37:45.470]  That is very cool.
[37:46.190 --> 37:48.810]  A Cat 5 cable seems to be pretty weighty, though.
[37:49.450 --> 37:51.650]  You're sending up two extra pairs of copper you don't need.
[37:51.650 --> 37:57.530]  It was a pretty big balloon, and I put my arm to see how much lift it had.
[37:57.630 --> 37:59.770]  And it was plenty.
[37:59.950 --> 38:01.310]  It was a good pull on that balloon.
[38:01.390 --> 38:01.850]  I was impressed.
[38:01.950 --> 38:03.010]  Even in the rain, it stayed up.
[38:03.490 --> 38:04.190]  Very cool.
[38:04.430 --> 38:04.970]  Very cool.
[38:05.590 --> 38:07.090]  I've got a story here, actually.
[38:07.750 --> 38:11.030]  We were talking about the whole situation in Tampa with the cameras.
[38:11.210 --> 38:12.290]  In fact, a lot of people...
[38:12.290 --> 38:13.110]  Yeah, boy, city.
[38:13.490 --> 38:15.330]  A lot of people had interest in that.
[38:16.210 --> 38:24.370]  And I remember saying, I think a lot of us said this, that we all know the day is going to come where this is going to be misused by the authorities.
[38:24.470 --> 38:26.290]  Well, it seems like that day's already happened.
[38:26.730 --> 38:28.010]  There's an Associated Press story.
[38:28.270 --> 38:40.550]  A construction worker whose picture was caught by a surveillance camera was questioned by police after an Oklahoma woman saw his picture and claimed he was her ex-husband and was wanted on felony child neglect charges.
[38:41.110 --> 38:46.690]  The problem is, Rob Miller has never been married, doesn't have any children, and has never been to Oklahoma.
[38:47.750 --> 38:50.790]  His photograph was captured by the face recognizing...
[38:50.790 --> 38:50.970]  Face it.
[38:52.570 --> 38:53.030]  Uh-oh.
[38:53.790 --> 38:54.150]  Hello.
[38:54.590 --> 38:55.730]  I think that's a manual.
[38:56.710 --> 38:57.970]  Maybe I should pass him the phone.
[38:58.210 --> 38:59.090]  That would be a good idea.
[38:59.650 --> 39:00.510]  Okay, here you go.
[39:01.790 --> 39:04.690]  All right, I was on a hotel phone, and apparently I ran out of time.
[39:04.810 --> 39:06.790]  Ah, I questioned you about that before.
[39:07.670 --> 39:09.390]  Well, it didn't give me a warning.
[39:09.570 --> 39:10.410]  All right, I'll give you a ring back.
[39:10.550 --> 39:13.450]  If you want to call me back on that, can I continue talking while you do that?
[39:13.530 --> 39:14.030]  Sure you can.
[39:14.450 --> 39:14.670]  Okay.
[39:15.410 --> 39:23.910]  Yeah, so his photograph was captured by the face recognizing Face It program in June while he was on a lunch break in Ybor City.
[39:23.910 --> 39:27.570]  I think that's the right way to pronounce it, we finally determined, in Tampa.
[39:27.790 --> 39:32.510]  The computer program allows police to scan faces and crowds looking for wanted criminals.
[39:33.130 --> 39:40.070]  The computer matches the electronic imaging against a database of 30,000 mugshots of felons, sexual predators, and runaways.
[39:40.070 --> 39:40.690]  It's runaways.
[39:41.230 --> 39:44.170]  I didn't know runaways were criminals, but apparently they are these days.
[39:44.610 --> 39:44.930]  It's a crime.
[39:44.930 --> 39:48.990]  There are 36 cameras set up in Ybor City, the center of Tampa's nightlife.
[39:50.550 --> 39:51.830]  Was somebody saying something?
[39:52.450 --> 39:55.210]  I just said being a runaway is apparently a crime.
[39:55.830 --> 39:56.630]  Yeah, yeah.
[39:58.490 --> 40:03.230]  He didn't know it at the time, but the police department used his photo to demonstrate the system to local news media.
[40:04.090 --> 40:04.730]  How about that?
[40:04.730 --> 40:07.690]  His photo ran in the St. Petersburg Times on June 30th.
[40:08.770 --> 40:10.370]  Let me pick up the other phone.
[40:10.510 --> 40:11.310]  That would be me.
[40:11.550 --> 40:11.810]  Hello.
[40:12.070 --> 40:12.710]  Hi, how are you?
[40:13.050 --> 40:13.750]  Okay, are we on?
[40:13.790 --> 40:14.130]  Hold on.
[40:17.750 --> 40:18.670]  Now you should be on.
[40:19.170 --> 40:20.310]  I'm on the air now.
[40:20.530 --> 40:20.770]  Wonderful.
[40:21.370 --> 40:26.050]  Yeah, okay, and his photo ran in the St. Petersburg Times on June 30th.
[40:26.170 --> 40:30.510]  The caption under the photo read, the man in this image was not identified as wanted.
[40:31.190 --> 40:33.430]  And the Times later sold the photo to U.S.
[40:33.510 --> 40:34.610]  News and World Report.
[40:35.070 --> 40:39.150]  It's nice that they can just sell your photos to different magazines and newspapers.
[40:39.410 --> 40:45.610]  And beneath his photo in the magazine, a headline read, you can't hide those lying eyes in Tampa.
[40:46.170 --> 40:50.490]  And according to Milleron, he says, it made me out to be a criminal.
[40:51.110 --> 40:54.570]  A woman in Tulsa saw his picture in the magazine and called Tampa police.
[40:54.930 --> 40:59.190]  She said the man in the photo was her ex-husband and was wanted by police on charges of child neglect.
[40:59.450 --> 41:02.390]  He was questioned by three police officers at his job site.
[41:02.710 --> 41:07.330]  And after they determined he wasn't the man the Oklahoma woman called about, they let him go home.
[41:07.930 --> 41:09.110]  Well, that's nice of them.
[41:09.290 --> 41:13.270]  According to Cheryl Toole, Milleron's girlfriend, he was absolutely horrified.
[41:13.270 --> 41:17.810]  He said, the FACEIT program has drawn national criticism as an unlawful invasion of privacy.
[41:17.950 --> 41:23.290]  The ACLU and House Majority Leader Dick Armey of Texas opposed Tampa's use of the software.
[41:23.530 --> 41:29.690]  But Tampa Mayor Dick Greco has said the cameras will remain in place until somebody climbs up and physically removes them.
[41:30.370 --> 41:31.310]  He says...
[41:31.310 --> 41:31.990]  I guess that's a hint.
[41:31.990 --> 41:33.250]  That's an indication.
[41:33.810 --> 41:34.670]  That's an indication.
[41:35.010 --> 41:35.990]  I guess that's a hint.
[41:36.570 --> 41:41.110]  Or if someone could shoot them with one of the many guns that are lying around in that town.
[41:41.930 --> 41:46.070]  They say he plans to hire an attorney, says he hopes the software system will be removed.
[41:46.250 --> 41:48.190]  I don't think it's right, Milleron says.
[41:48.350 --> 41:49.550]  They made me feel like a criminal.
[41:49.890 --> 41:52.150]  And for one brief moment of time, he was a criminal.
[41:52.770 --> 41:57.050]  Well, you see, I think I've determined the actual basis behind this whole thing.
[41:57.230 --> 42:01.090]  You see, Tampa has been so interested in raising taxes over the years.
[42:01.090 --> 42:06.690]  Now they've just gone past the money and they're collecting people's souls with these cameras out in the middle of nowhere.
[42:07.990 --> 42:17.450]  If you want to take out cameras but don't quite feel ready for the AK-47 or something else, paintball guns work excellently.
[42:17.570 --> 42:18.270]  Oh, yes, they do.
[42:19.890 --> 42:21.670]  I think, Bernie, you might know something about those.
[42:21.770 --> 42:23.210]  Spray paint on a stick is good, too.
[42:23.890 --> 42:24.630]  About what?
[42:24.750 --> 42:25.370]  I couldn't hear what Ross said.
[42:25.610 --> 42:26.350]  Paintball guns.
[42:26.570 --> 42:27.410]  Oh, paintball guns.
[42:27.410 --> 42:37.690]  In fact, there was a panel discussion at HAL 2001 about video surveillance technology and all these cameras that are popping up all over the place.
[42:37.690 --> 42:48.650]  And I brought up the idea that, has anyone investigated the threshold of photon overload for these CCD chips in the cameras?
[42:48.670 --> 43:04.770]  In other words, if you had one of these laser pointers or maybe a little higher power infrared laser diode, what would it take to actually disable the sensing chip, the CCD chip, inside these surveillance cameras?
[43:04.770 --> 43:05.690]  Well, you can probably...
[43:05.690 --> 43:11.550]  The point with CCD chips is you would only blow out a few cells near pretty much where you are.
[43:11.770 --> 43:11.910]  Yeah.
[43:12.330 --> 43:21.630]  And to do more damage than that, you basically have to overheat the inside of the camera, which, as you can imagine, takes a laser that you wouldn't want to carry around.
[43:21.810 --> 43:23.530]  Frankly, I don't think that's necessary.
[43:23.530 --> 43:31.690]  If you have a decent strobe light, you can just time it so that the auto-iris is constantly opening and closing and can't manage to resolve a picture.
[43:32.650 --> 43:35.430]  Well, that only worked while you were there.
[43:35.790 --> 43:36.070]  Correct.
[43:36.570 --> 43:37.910]  Well, if you're not there, what are you doing?
[43:37.950 --> 43:38.830]  We're talking destruction, right?
[43:38.950 --> 43:41.510]  We're talking dysfunctional, not working anymore.
[43:43.370 --> 43:45.450]  Yeah, I think that is what we're talking about.
[43:45.510 --> 43:46.130]  Absolute destruction.
[43:46.310 --> 43:47.490]  Well, all right.
[43:47.710 --> 43:49.030]  Rob obviously had it right.
[43:49.130 --> 43:52.810]  The lowest, the most cost-effective way to do this is the paintball gun.
[43:53.050 --> 43:53.270]  Yes.
[43:53.630 --> 43:53.790]  Yes.
[43:54.230 --> 43:54.950]  Parabolic mirrors.
[43:55.050 --> 43:56.550]  In a very good aim.
[43:56.970 --> 43:58.550]  We got someone else here with an idea.
[43:59.070 --> 44:00.770]  Parabolic mirrors during the day.
[44:01.250 --> 44:02.130]  Two advantages.
[44:02.430 --> 44:03.390]  First, you blind it.
[44:03.530 --> 44:07.110]  Secondly, it should be hot enough to permanently disable it.
[44:08.110 --> 44:11.570]  The thing is, to have a parabolic mirror with a far enough...
[44:12.290 --> 44:18.210]  To catch enough sun, you have to have multiple of these, which means the focus has to be pretty far away.
[44:18.670 --> 44:18.970]  Right.
[44:19.450 --> 44:21.030]  So you're probably better off...
[44:21.030 --> 44:25.410]  If you have that many people with mirrors, you're probably better off just using flat mirrors in a lot of them.
[44:25.790 --> 44:25.990]  Right.
[44:25.990 --> 44:27.670]  You know, that reminds me of an Arthur C.
[44:27.770 --> 44:33.330]  Clarke story, where basically there is a referee for an unpopular soccer team.
[44:34.670 --> 44:48.090]  It's weird that he would write this kind of a story, but basically all the fans thought he was being unfair, and so they all had these little handheld mirrors, and at a particular designated moment in time, they all pointed it at him, and he was vaporized on the field.
[44:48.530 --> 44:48.750]  Ooh.
[44:50.050 --> 44:51.430]  Interesting bit of fiction there.
[44:51.730 --> 44:52.890]  Hopefully it remains fiction.
[44:52.890 --> 44:53.570]  It is.
[44:53.850 --> 44:58.810]  And it also is kind of heartening, because it shows what people can do if they only unite.
[45:00.630 --> 45:01.210]  All right.
[45:01.350 --> 45:02.910]  Well, if I may switch from...
[45:02.910 --> 45:04.470]  It gives you a warm feeling.
[45:04.670 --> 45:05.130]  Yeah, always.
[45:05.350 --> 45:07.430]  Well, it sure gave the referee a warm feeling.
[45:07.870 --> 45:08.270]  All right.
[45:08.570 --> 45:11.590]  I thought I was the pun fellow here, but okay.
[45:11.610 --> 45:12.930]  Oh, he really did feel very warm.
[45:13.010 --> 45:13.490]  Oh, I'm sure.
[45:14.170 --> 45:17.870]  Moving from video to audio surveillance, this one's from ZDNet.
[45:17.870 --> 45:19.910]  Judges furious over being watched.
[45:20.110 --> 45:32.890]  A group of West Coast judges, angry that their online activity is monitored by a federal agency here that administers the court system, have suggested the scrutiny may be illegal, and for one week earlier this year, disabled the monitoring system in protest.
[45:33.510 --> 45:36.370]  Judge Alex Kaczynski, of San Francisco's U.S.
[45:36.450 --> 45:43.330]  Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, where the disabling took place, has claimed in a memorandum that such oversight violates the federal wiretap statute.
[45:43.870 --> 45:54.150]  Broad surveillance by system administrators is explicitly permitted under the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act and has been upheld by several courts, and Congress has rejected attempts to craft a new policy.
[45:54.410 --> 46:01.730]  So now we have judges disabling their own surveillance of their own networks.
[46:02.150 --> 46:07.270]  Where do you think this is going to go so far as the court's future findings in various surveillance cases?
[46:07.470 --> 46:09.950]  I'm curious which judge was able to actually do that.
[46:10.110 --> 46:10.330]  Yes.
[46:10.330 --> 46:17.470]  These were, Emanuel, these were actually federal circuit court judges, federal appeals court judges in the Ninth Circuit.
[46:17.630 --> 46:21.270]  I think this also, the system also affected, what, the Seventh and Eighth Circuit?
[46:21.410 --> 46:22.710]  Is that right, Isaac?
[46:22.950 --> 46:25.810]  The story doesn't say, but personal context says, yeah.
[46:26.250 --> 46:30.990]  These were federal appeals court and federal circuit court judges, federal judges.
[46:31.290 --> 46:31.550]  Yeah.
[46:31.790 --> 46:47.170]  Very powerful people who were basically, all they had to do was whip out a piece of paper and write an order, ordering their IT staff to stop doing this monitoring of our workplace computers that all other workers in the United States have to put up with.
[46:47.650 --> 46:53.050]  And so I think that's a very interesting double standard that was demonstrated there.
[46:53.810 --> 46:59.030]  Yeah, well, you always see double standards when it comes to positions of power, and I don't think a judge would be any exception to that.
[46:59.230 --> 47:05.770]  Well, I'm sure that if you were to go before this judge in a particular trial with a wiretap case, it might have some interesting implications.
[47:05.770 --> 47:11.710]  Your Honor, you yourself disabled the surveillance technology that was monitoring your activities.
[47:11.710 --> 47:17.370]  Why should I, the poor little defendant employed by WidgetCo, have to bear this sort of...
[47:17.370 --> 47:20.030]  Well, you know, I think judges really don't like it when you do that.
[47:20.330 --> 47:21.630]  They don't have to like it.
[47:22.550 --> 47:25.610]  That's, well, there are also some degrees of exemption, yes.
[47:25.770 --> 47:34.490]  In fact, you'll have interesting pieces of classified data passed by these persons' desks, which makes the surveillance even more suspect.
[47:35.250 --> 47:51.890]  Now, speaking of judges and courts of appeals, there's also another very important story that took place about a week ago, right after our show last week, and that was the 6th District Court of Appeals denying Matt Pavlovich's challenge to jurisdictional issues.
[47:52.490 --> 47:54.050]  He's one of the 500 people.
[47:54.050 --> 47:54.850]  I'm another one of them.
[47:55.750 --> 48:04.430]  And all kinds of people are part of the DVD-CCA case, which predated the MPAA lawsuit concerning the ECSS.
[48:04.710 --> 48:06.810]  And if you don't know what any of those acronyms mean...
[48:06.810 --> 48:07.610]  Oh, boy.
[48:07.850 --> 48:08.750]  Go to the archives.
[48:08.970 --> 48:11.250]  Yeah, go to the archives, because we really don't have time to explain it all.
[48:11.330 --> 48:20.890]  But basically, what it boils down to is that a court in California tried to sue hundreds of people all around the world.
[48:21.590 --> 48:28.170]  And Matt Pavlovich went to the Court of Appeals to argue that they did not have jurisdiction.
[48:28.570 --> 48:31.170]  And the Court of Appeals said, we do too.
[48:31.710 --> 48:40.390]  And now, basically, the prospect exists for California law to be enforced around the country and around the world.
[48:40.570 --> 48:46.310]  Now, a couple of very interesting quotes from the court's statement, which I think we really need to read here.
[48:46.310 --> 48:50.910]  And it tells you something about how they view the open-source people.
[48:51.370 --> 48:51.710]  Listen to this.
[48:51.790 --> 49:03.530]  At the time Pavlovich posted DECSS on the Internet, he was a leader in the open-source movement, the purpose of which was to make as much material as possible available over the Internet.
[49:03.830 --> 49:04.830]  Sounds like he's a drug bar.
[49:05.090 --> 49:11.930]  He also said, further, Pavlovich knew that his website allowed the illegal publishing and distribution of DVDs.
[49:12.970 --> 49:24.290]  So I think that's something that basically proves they know absolutely nothing about DVDs or anything concerning open-source or technology.
[49:24.670 --> 49:25.530]  I think...
[49:25.530 --> 49:27.310]  Of course, you as a code editor did say that.
[49:27.870 --> 49:28.350]  Yes.
[49:28.350 --> 49:29.430]  It sounds like the reporter...
[49:29.430 --> 49:40.610]  It sounds like the reporter was trying to make people think that the open-source movement was all about publishing as much copyrighted material in violation of copyrights as possible.
[49:41.770 --> 49:42.670]  Which is frightening.
[49:42.830 --> 49:46.410]  It was either a very clueless reporter or a very dangerous...
[49:46.970 --> 49:50.050]  No, a clueless reporter is a very dangerous person.
[49:50.330 --> 49:52.290]  Well, no, this wasn't the reporter.
[49:52.410 --> 49:53.970]  This was the court saying this.
[49:54.190 --> 49:54.670]  Oh, God.
[49:54.810 --> 49:55.490]  That's even worse.
[49:56.070 --> 49:59.330]  Yeah, this was the actual court statement saying these things.
[49:59.470 --> 50:05.790]  And that's what frightens me, is that they view the open-source movement as some kind of a criminal conspiracy.
[50:06.290 --> 50:08.610]  Well, look at recent Microsoft statements.
[50:09.090 --> 50:20.430]  They've been trying to paint the open-source movement as, like, this enemy of innovation, this evil black hole that pulls good code into this hole where no more money can be made from it.
[50:21.610 --> 50:31.690]  Oh, and they've even gone so far as to saying that closed-source is a far more secure alternative to open-source products, which I thought was the most laughable thing out of their mouths in a very long time.
[50:32.650 --> 50:33.010]  Yes.
[50:34.650 --> 50:35.090]  Let's see.
[50:35.190 --> 50:42.710]  I would like to take some phone calls, but I also want to read a letter and make an announcement at the same time.
[50:43.910 --> 50:45.310]  Let's go to the letter first.
[50:45.350 --> 50:52.810]  This is concerning the whole Dimitri case, which was talked about quite a bit at the HAL 2001, which, of course, we will be following in the weeks ahead.
[50:54.310 --> 50:59.910]  This person writes in, I've been a fan of your show for a while, and I'm very thankful and proud of the work you have done on behalf of Hackers Everywhere.
[51:00.730 --> 51:08.770]  I was sitting at a baseball game earlier this week, enjoying America's gluttony, and out of the corner of my eye, I saw an older gentleman with his family.
[51:09.370 --> 51:13.390]  Now, I realize this is not uncommon at a baseball game, but the next fact is very uncommon.
[51:13.590 --> 51:15.890]  He was wearing a free Dimitri T-shirt.
[51:16.170 --> 51:19.050]  I found this to be a testament to the reach of Hackers everywhere.
[51:19.310 --> 51:21.130]  I felt proud to be associated with Hackers.
[51:21.150 --> 51:24.290]  I felt proud to see the simple protest of just wearing a shirt.
[51:24.490 --> 51:27.990]  It was a small experience, but nonetheless, it was an experience.
[51:28.410 --> 51:30.050]  Thank you again for doing what you do.
[51:30.650 --> 51:31.450]  Signed, iScan.
[51:31.650 --> 51:33.410]  And thanks for sending us that letter.
[51:33.810 --> 51:38.470]  If you want to send us letters, OTH at 2600.com is our address.
[51:39.610 --> 51:40.590]  The electronic one.
[51:41.450 --> 51:42.390]  Yeah, that's right.
[51:42.410 --> 51:51.030]  And if you want to send us actual paper mail, send that to off the hook here at WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 10005.
[51:51.310 --> 51:52.610]  And I also want to make an announcement.
[51:52.610 --> 51:59.090]  I've been following a couple of stories and always following stories about radio in New York.
[51:59.130 --> 52:06.070]  And I'm very, very sad and upset to hear the news that WEVD has apparently been lost to Disney.
[52:06.850 --> 52:11.210]  As we've mentioned before in this radio program, WEVD is an AM station.
[52:11.430 --> 52:17.490]  It was an FM station, but it's now an AM station that has basically alternative-type talk shows.
[52:17.490 --> 52:22.730]  Not quite along the lines of WBAI, but certainly interesting and necessary all the same.
[52:22.730 --> 52:30.130]  But apparently the owners of that particular station felt it was more important to have another sports station in the city.
[52:30.830 --> 52:38.510]  There's going to be an informational picketing on Thursday, August 16th, in front of the offices of the Forward Association.
[52:38.510 --> 52:44.510]  They're the owners of WEVD, and they're the ones that are handing it over to Disney as of the end of this month.
[52:44.690 --> 52:51.270]  So if you're interested in that, the address is 45 East 33rd Street in Manhattan, just west of Park Avenue, on the north side of the street.
[52:51.270 --> 52:53.610]  It's important to mention that it's an informational picket.
[52:53.730 --> 52:57.570]  That means no building entrances can be blocked, nor can sound equipment be used.
[52:57.890 --> 53:02.350]  And they'll be handing out FCC postcards this Thursday from 5 to 7 p.m.
[53:02.630 --> 53:07.150]  Isaac, I understand there are some demonstrators outside our station, is that correct?
[53:07.650 --> 53:09.090]  There's like six people downstairs.
[53:09.350 --> 53:10.730]  There's always like six people downstairs.
[53:11.190 --> 53:12.930]  Well, this is new since I left.
[53:13.050 --> 53:14.910]  There's six people holding a vigil all night long?
[53:14.990 --> 53:17.310]  I have a feeling they've left since the rain came.
[53:18.890 --> 53:22.370]  Well, but they've been there every week that you've been coming in?
[53:22.490 --> 53:23.710]  Well, definitely not six.
[53:23.710 --> 53:24.650]  Maybe one or two.
[53:24.850 --> 53:26.430]  I don't know what they're demonstrating, but they're...
[53:27.290 --> 53:28.350]  You don't know what they're demonstrating.
[53:29.210 --> 53:30.570]  You need to get on the web, Isaac.
[53:30.670 --> 53:31.630]  You need to start reading things.
[53:31.690 --> 53:32.670]  You need to start doing some research.
[53:32.830 --> 53:34.450]  I guess I've got to become aware, huh?
[53:34.690 --> 53:35.870]  Yeah, you certainly do.
[53:36.050 --> 53:38.870]  Be aware or be wiped out, because that's what it boils down to.
[53:39.030 --> 53:43.010]  I want to thank those people for being there, for keeping us honest, or trying to anyway.
[53:43.010 --> 53:50.210]  Anyway, and it's important to know what's going on and to at least try to communicate with people.
[53:50.930 --> 53:52.990]  You won't always succeed, but at least you can try.
[53:54.190 --> 53:55.870]  Do we have time to take phone calls?
[53:56.310 --> 53:57.850]  We have time to take phone calls.
[53:57.850 --> 53:59.910]  We don't have lines to take phone calls.
[54:00.170 --> 54:02.470]  Okay, well, who's going to sacrifice?
[54:02.890 --> 54:04.130]  I can get out.
[54:04.310 --> 54:06.130]  Yeah, you're getting kind of pruney in there, I guess, huh?
[54:06.890 --> 54:07.170]  Yeah.
[54:07.530 --> 54:19.490]  Well, you've been in the dark club in Amsterdam for quite some time, Rob, and I imagine you want to get out now and probably, I guess it's almost 3 in the morning there, as it is here in Paris.
[54:19.710 --> 54:22.370]  Rob, again, thank you very much for all the work you've done.
[54:22.490 --> 54:25.970]  Thank everybody else there for us, too, for making this such an enjoyable experience.
[54:26.430 --> 54:26.870]  Thanks, Rob.
[54:27.330 --> 54:27.770]  Thank you.
[54:29.210 --> 54:30.710]  Okay, that's Rob from Amsterdam.
[54:31.810 --> 54:33.450]  Do we have enough lines to take phone calls now?
[54:33.550 --> 54:35.270]  We have one line to take phone calls with you.
[54:35.370 --> 54:36.350]  It's just enough.
[54:36.630 --> 54:37.270]  Okay, let's do it.
[54:37.610 --> 54:37.970]  All right.
[54:38.830 --> 54:39.750]  Hello, you're on the air.
[54:39.750 --> 54:41.810]  For all the work you've done, thank everybody else there.
[54:41.950 --> 54:44.390]  And you're waiting for the radio to catch up.
[54:44.710 --> 54:45.070]  Yeah.
[54:45.410 --> 54:46.890]  And I'm not going to wait any longer.
[54:47.790 --> 54:48.790]  Hello, you're on the air.
[54:49.930 --> 54:50.750]  Guess you're not.
[54:51.050 --> 54:52.170]  All right, American Dial-Town.
[54:53.110 --> 54:54.050]  Hello, you're on the air.
[54:54.790 --> 54:55.150]  Hello?
[54:55.370 --> 54:56.110]  Hello, how are you?
[54:56.330 --> 54:58.250]  Hi, I just have a naive question.
[54:58.850 --> 55:01.130]  What's a good cell phone carrier in the New York area?
[55:02.630 --> 55:03.250]  Very naive.
[55:03.550 --> 55:04.450]  That's a good question.
[55:04.530 --> 55:05.330]  That's a funny question.
[55:05.370 --> 55:09.010]  It depends on if you want to stay in the New York area or if you intend to travel anywhere.
[55:09.010 --> 55:10.310]  Probably just Long Island.
[55:10.530 --> 55:11.590]  Let me ask you a question, sir.
[55:11.670 --> 55:12.350]  Do you have a weapon?
[55:12.970 --> 55:13.550]  A weapon?
[55:14.770 --> 55:15.210]  No.
[55:15.910 --> 55:16.350]  Okay.
[55:17.190 --> 55:21.090]  Then I might suggest Sprint PCS because you probably won't immediately kill them.
[55:22.650 --> 55:24.570]  I heard you didn't like Voice Dream, right?
[55:25.070 --> 55:29.650]  I got to tell you, you know, it's really amazing, the whole GSM technology.
[55:29.730 --> 55:31.830]  I went on a rant last week.
[55:31.930 --> 55:32.750]  You might recall this.
[55:32.750 --> 55:39.630]  I went on a really unforgiving rant about Voice Dream and the nincompoops they are and how they had messed things up totally.
[55:39.770 --> 55:41.970]  It was nothing compared to what they did after the show.
[55:42.110 --> 55:43.790]  They turned off my service entirely.
[55:44.170 --> 55:47.110]  I had no service at all, could not make any phone calls.
[55:47.330 --> 55:50.190]  And, you know, it's very hard to tell them that when you can't reach them.
[55:50.930 --> 55:58.750]  I had to borrow somebody else's phone and talk to idiots over there for about a half hour racking up God knows how much in airtime.
[55:58.930 --> 56:03.590]  And then they told me that it was going to take 48 hours to turn it back on, even though it only took them a minute to turn it off.
[56:03.710 --> 56:04.190]  Oh, man.
[56:04.410 --> 56:08.930]  And the whole reason for that, the whole reason for that was because the billing cycle changed.
[56:09.110 --> 56:13.630]  And I thought it would be a good idea to add minutes to my plan, you know, as long as it didn't affect anything.
[56:13.770 --> 56:17.850]  I figured, why not have some extra roaming minutes so it wouldn't cost so much when I was over in Europe?
[56:17.850 --> 56:20.450]  Just make sure you don't turn off the international roaming.
[56:20.810 --> 56:23.110]  And, of course, they turned off the international roaming.
[56:23.210 --> 56:27.530]  They did the exact same thing to poor chap when he was over there, and his billing cycle changed.
[56:27.850 --> 56:31.890]  And it's just, you know, this kind of incompetence really is unforgivable.
[56:32.210 --> 56:35.670]  VoiceStream, I think, really owes the whole GSM world an apology.
[56:35.870 --> 56:38.110]  And I want to see competition, damn it.
[56:38.110 --> 56:39.710]  I want to see competition in the United States.
[56:39.930 --> 56:42.850]  There's always at least three companies here I can choose from.
[56:43.110 --> 56:44.670]  Why is it we only have one?
[56:45.130 --> 56:47.830]  And they all agree not to compete with each other in the United States.
[56:47.950 --> 56:55.290]  Because we've got three standards in the United States, and it's the standards that compete, not the companies that happen to be playing with them.
[56:55.510 --> 57:00.330]  Well, actually, it is the companies of GSM that could be competing with each other.
[57:00.470 --> 57:08.130]  I mean, there's PowerTel, there's PacBell, there's Sprint Spectrum, which I believe still exists, and VoiceStream, and a few others.
[57:08.290 --> 57:09.470]  Bellsop, I think, is one of them, too.
[57:09.550 --> 57:10.390]  That's not economical.
[57:11.170 --> 57:16.210]  Well, you know, then someone else needs to start up and start competing with these people because they're not doing a good job.
[57:16.390 --> 57:22.930]  And if they do that, they're going to implement the latest technology, and they're not going to try to muscle someone out of a base that they've already established.
[57:23.270 --> 57:24.990]  It's just like basic capitalism, man.
[57:25.130 --> 57:26.330]  I know you don't understand that.
[57:26.370 --> 57:28.450]  Why a land of competition does not have competition, you know?
[57:28.510 --> 57:29.790]  That's something I just don't get.
[57:29.930 --> 57:32.210]  There is, but it's in the services that are provided.
[57:32.830 --> 57:41.330]  We've only got, like, three minutes left, and I did promise to go to this Scarfo thing, and since I have Bernie here, we might as well do it fairly quickly.
[57:42.690 --> 57:50.850]  Basically, the United States government has invoked national security to argue the details of a new electronic surveillance technique must remain secret.
[57:51.150 --> 58:03.490]  This fellow, Scarfo, is allegedly running a loan sharking operation, encrypted all his data on his computer with PGP, and the FBI wants to be able to get to it.
[58:03.510 --> 58:08.090]  So they put a keylogger onto his keyboard, and Bernie has the latest on that.
[58:08.090 --> 58:12.430]  Matt, what's the best twist in this whole story so far, sir?
[58:12.630 --> 58:19.750]  Well, for people who haven't heard about this, and I'll try to make it really brief because you've only got a couple of minutes, is that was this or was this not a wiretap?
[58:19.970 --> 58:22.370]  The FBI did not get a wiretap warrant.
[58:22.530 --> 58:23.850]  They got a search warrant.
[58:24.550 --> 58:31.390]  And under what, in the United States, we have what's called Title III, which is the federal definition of what a wiretap is.
[58:31.730 --> 58:43.910]  Title III was modified in 1986 with that infamous law, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986, the EPA, which made it illegal to listen to cellular phone frequencies, which was another insanity.
[58:44.290 --> 58:51.110]  All radio frequencies should be open for anybody who wants to listen to them unless it's encrypted and then take your luck.
[58:51.190 --> 58:56.070]  But anyhow, the FBI did not get a wiretap warrant, and they tapped this guy's keyboard.
[58:56.230 --> 59:06.990]  And my reading of Title III definition of a wiretap in the ECPA is if it's a wired communication and data, then tapping that is a wiretap.
[59:07.170 --> 59:07.750]  I agree.
[59:07.890 --> 59:14.190]  The FBI is standing on its head to avoid having to tell anybody how this works so they can't...
[59:14.790 --> 59:17.810]  so nobody can say, well, based on what you did, wiretap.
[59:18.010 --> 59:28.510]  But finally, a federal judge this week ordered the FBI to tell him privately how this thing worked so the judge can make a determination as to whether it was a wiretap or not.
[59:28.710 --> 59:46.570]  And I'm hoping that judge concludes it was a wiretap and throws out the case, not because I like Mr. Scarfo, who I think is probably not a very nice person, but we don't want the FBI to have the ability to tap people's data communications and keyboards and so forth without a wiretap warrant.
[59:46.730 --> 59:47.210]  I agree.
[59:47.330 --> 59:48.930]  It goes down to the very nature of the warrant.
[59:49.050 --> 59:51.790]  A search warrant is kind of like taking a snapshot of an area.
[59:52.010 --> 59:56.910]  You know exactly what you're going in to get, you know exactly what you're going in to retrieve and you're going to take it away with you.
[59:57.190 --> 01:00:01.490]  This whole keyboard logging thing seems very much like a wiretap.
[01:00:01.770 --> 01:00:03.710]  The stuff is in the guy's head.
[01:00:03.850 --> 01:00:09.150]  He's moving it from one place to another, which is something that happens in time and space.
[01:00:09.510 --> 01:00:17.270]  Well, regardless of whether or not it's on a wire, the fact is that this information is being moved through time and space to another location.
[01:00:17.430 --> 01:00:21.130]  They couldn't just get a search warrant, go in and like take this section of this guy's head.
[01:00:21.330 --> 01:00:23.850]  In the future, they may, but that's besides the point at the moment.
[01:00:24.290 --> 01:00:36.870]  They're putting some device on there, they're intercepting the communication as it's going from one person to the other, in this case a computer, wiretap, hands down, and I don't even think that the judge needed to know how the thing worked to make that decision.
[01:00:36.870 --> 01:00:47.130]  Well, the funny thing is the password, the PGP passphrase that this guy used was his three initials followed by a Bureau of Prisons federal inmate number.
[01:00:47.670 --> 01:00:52.750]  And I instantly recognized that number having gone through that unfortunate experience myself once.
[01:00:52.930 --> 01:00:54.150]  Under a section of the same law.
[01:00:54.490 --> 01:00:58.770]  And actually, yeah, under CALEA, but in any case...
[01:00:58.770 --> 01:01:00.170]  Well, now we all know the Bernie password.
[01:01:00.510 --> 01:01:02.030]  Any cryptographer could have...
[01:01:02.030 --> 01:01:02.510]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:01:02.790 --> 01:01:05.690]  Any cryptographer would have guessed that pretty easily.
[01:01:05.970 --> 01:01:09.470]  And apparently the FBI is not worth its salt.
[01:01:09.810 --> 01:01:10.170]  Well, hey.
[01:01:10.890 --> 01:01:11.690]  We're out of time.
[01:01:12.370 --> 01:01:13.250]  Oh, geez, man.
[01:01:13.490 --> 01:01:14.630]  The time goes so fast.
[01:01:14.770 --> 01:01:15.350]  Well, say goodbye.
[01:01:15.970 --> 01:01:16.730]  Oh, goodbye.
[01:01:16.770 --> 01:01:17.830]  And I want to thank everybody.
[01:01:17.830 --> 01:01:24.610]  I want to thank Rob and AutoJack and Bernie and Jeff and Isaac and everybody else out there, all the listeners.
[01:01:24.910 --> 01:01:25.570]  Enjoy France.
[01:01:25.570 --> 01:01:27.290]  You're coming back the week after next, right?
[01:01:27.370 --> 01:01:28.590]  Yeah, I'll be somewhere else next week.
[01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:32.670]  I don't know exactly where, but we'll be talking over the telephone and then I'll be back in the studio next week.
[01:01:32.830 --> 01:01:33.750]  All right, that sounds good.
[01:01:33.810 --> 01:01:34.550]  The week after that, rather.
[01:01:35.030 --> 01:01:35.490]  All righty.
[01:01:35.750 --> 01:01:37.290]  Well, this is Isaac.
[01:01:37.550 --> 01:01:43.350]  Time is 2 to the hour and you're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[01:01:48.470 --> 01:01:48.910]  Well,
[01:02:36.050 --> 01:02:47.150]  an Iraqi drum ensemble on a Tuesday night on WBAI means it's time for Tahrir, Voices of the Arab Muslim Community here and abroad.
[01:02:47.150 --> 01:02:49.370]  I'm Barbara Numeri Aziz, your host.