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[01:57.240 --> 01:58.880]  It's just about 8 o'clock.
[01:59.060 --> 01:59.780]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:05.880 --> 02:10.380]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[02:11.380 --> 02:15.960]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[02:16.680 --> 02:18.820]  We couldn't get much worse.
[02:21.640 --> 02:24.300]  Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst.
[02:24.940 --> 02:26.860]  I hope that's understood.
[02:27.120 --> 02:27.900]  Bum-diddly-bom!
[03:13.680 --> 03:15.000]  And a good evening to everybody.
[03:15.120 --> 03:15.960]  The program's Off the Hook.
[03:15.960 --> 03:17.660]  It's Manuel Goldstein here with you.
[03:18.600 --> 03:19.880]  Isaac, nice of you to stop by tonight.
[03:20.560 --> 03:21.700]  Well, you know, I'm sorry.
[03:21.780 --> 03:23.080]  I was a little busy last week.
[03:23.240 --> 03:24.080]  I wanted to get here.
[03:24.120 --> 03:24.920]  I looked at my watch.
[03:24.920 --> 03:26.380]  It said 840.
[03:26.720 --> 03:29.700]  Well, the funny thing is, you called me before the show to warn me about the traffic.
[03:29.720 --> 03:30.380]  The traffic, yes.
[03:30.420 --> 03:31.380]  Yeah, and then you didn't show up.
[03:31.500 --> 03:36.060]  Well, I got the traffic report beforehand, and I was hoping that you'd be there, knowing that I might be a little late.
[03:36.080 --> 03:37.560]  You don't even have a car to start with.
[03:37.660 --> 03:39.160]  That also adds to the mystery.
[03:39.320 --> 03:44.040]  But we only have an hour, so there's no need to pry into your life to figure out what you're up to.
[03:45.120 --> 03:46.780]  So, how have you been the last couple of weeks?
[03:47.740 --> 03:48.020]  Tired.
[03:48.360 --> 03:48.900]  Yeah, yeah.
[03:49.640 --> 03:55.080]  You know, every time I get off the number four train here on Wall Street, it's like walking into a tomb.
[03:55.260 --> 03:56.420]  Why don't you take the two-three?
[03:57.220 --> 04:03.940]  Because the only way to do that would be to switch at Fulton Street, and then you've got to walk practically the whole way anyway, and you've got to wait for another train, so you might as well just take the four.
[04:03.960 --> 04:08.620]  Since they reopened the station last week, it's just, you know, it's very depressing getting off here.
[04:09.520 --> 04:13.820]  It's, I mean, you walk around down here, and you look up at the buildings, and they're still covered in dust.
[04:14.580 --> 04:17.700]  Some stores haven't opened, and they've got stuff on the floor.
[04:17.880 --> 04:36.080]  It's, it's, the worst part of it, quite honestly, are the people who make me absolutely sick, who are standing five rows deep at the police barricades against Broadway, just watching this and snapping photos, and they'll be walking down the sidewalk, and they'll just stop and look.
[04:36.200 --> 04:42.400]  And meanwhile, you've got people who are actually trying to go about their lives down here, who are suffering with this every day, and they're just tourists.
[04:42.400 --> 04:42.780]  Yeah.
[04:43.020 --> 04:47.100]  It's the most morbid kind of tourism that makes me ill, and...
[04:47.100 --> 04:54.620]  Well, there are a number, there are a number of people who get me sick recently, as far as this, and that's definitely one of them, the tourists who come down to take pictures of carnage.
[04:55.400 --> 05:02.120]  I mean, I can sort of understand the morbid curiosity, but at the same time, you know, some of the comments you hear, you know, it's like, why can I get a better view?
[05:02.620 --> 05:09.640]  You know, just like, it's like, like you're looking at the Statue of Liberty or something like that, you know, it's, it's, we still have thousands of people that are unaccounted before.
[05:09.900 --> 05:11.420]  I still see the posters up in the subway.
[05:11.960 --> 05:13.900]  And it's, it's really pretty unbelievable.
[05:14.380 --> 05:17.720]  It's going to be a long, long, long time before this city is the same again.
[05:18.160 --> 05:27.620]  And I feel that a lot of other, a lot of other entities are going down this road with us, including a good part of the country, a good part of the world.
[05:28.400 --> 05:30.880]  And we'll just have to see where it goes.
[05:30.880 --> 05:37.200]  But, uh, in addition to those people, the opportunists, the opportunists really get me sick.
[05:37.320 --> 05:47.980]  I've gotten more than a few, um, uh, pieces of mail, pieces of junk mail, uh, from various, uh, corporations, um, saying, you know, we feel for the victims.
[05:47.980 --> 05:51.420]  Uh, so contribute to the fund that we've set up through our company.
[05:51.580 --> 05:54.160]  Why not just contribute to the Red Cross yourself?
[05:54.360 --> 06:01.240]  Why do you have to contribute to a company that's supposedly then going to give the money to the same organization you could have given it to in the first place?
[06:01.560 --> 06:02.420]  I don't understand that.
[06:02.520 --> 06:04.560]  It's just basically they're, they're trying to get publicity.
[06:04.920 --> 06:06.720]  You know, they're trying to get, uh, all this, uh, attention.
[06:06.980 --> 06:17.820]  There's another, there's a company down, I won't, I won't give the name only because I don't want to go too, uh, too crazy with this, but there is a company here in New York that basically turned the whole side of their building into a big American flag.
[06:18.360 --> 06:20.640]  And they've, they've, uh, you know, they're very proud of this.
[06:20.920 --> 06:26.520]  They're, they've, you know, on the website, they're saying how much, uh, how much they spent on this, how many hours it took, how many people it took.
[06:27.320 --> 06:42.260]  Come on, couldn't all All that money and effort have been spent better towards the relief efforts, I mean, you know, to show off and to publicize your company, you know, by wrapping yourself, literally wrapping yourself in the flag, I just think that's going a little bit overboard.
[06:42.660 --> 06:54.280]  Well, on the one hand, yes, they did do a... they made a very nice gesture, but then to, like, point at it and say, look, we made a nice gesture, and jump up and down is a bit intolerable.
[06:54.280 --> 06:56.300]  But the nicest gestures are the simplest ones.
[06:56.440 --> 07:01.440]  These big, massive things that cost millions of dollars, who do they serve?
[07:01.760 --> 07:03.480]  Do we feel better because of it?
[07:03.500 --> 07:04.000]  I don't.
[07:04.240 --> 07:15.320]  Well, there are a number of corporations that immediately after the event basically pledged millions of dollars and donated millions of dollars, and they didn't put out a single publicity release about it.
[07:15.320 --> 07:19.920]  And that's fine, that's fine, but, you know, to basically put up advertisements saying, hey, look what we're doing...
[07:19.920 --> 07:22.560]  Yeah, that's a bit much in my mind.
[07:22.560 --> 07:35.020]  But the other people who get me sick, of course, and this is what a good part of last week's show is about, are the people that are using this to their advantage to pass these unbelievable laws that could affect us forever.
[07:35.300 --> 07:38.680]  The Anti-Terrorism Act is still being debated.
[07:38.680 --> 07:47.260]  I understand there's been a lot of progress, and that some things have been stricken, some things have been revised, but the point is, it's not done yet.
[07:47.460 --> 07:49.900]  And who knows what other changes they're going to make.
[07:50.680 --> 07:51.960]  You've been following this, I assume.
[07:51.960 --> 07:53.280]  To some degree, yeah.
[07:53.420 --> 08:01.500]  It's basically the thing we talked about last week, where hackers can get put in prison for life without any possibility of release.
[08:01.920 --> 08:05.140]  Not only for acts they commit in the future, but acts they commit in the past.
[08:05.520 --> 08:11.580]  And basically turning it all into terrorist acts.
[08:11.780 --> 08:16.140]  You know, hacking a webpage is the same thing as hijacking an airplane, apparently, in these people's eyes.
[08:16.140 --> 08:19.040]  And it just makes you think, you know, do they really have a handle on the situation?
[08:19.200 --> 08:23.000]  Do they really know what they're talking about as far as tracking down the real perpetrators here?
[08:23.060 --> 08:26.600]  If they're going to equate, you know, such a minor act with such a major act.
[08:28.280 --> 08:30.040]  So, those are the people that get me ill.
[08:30.500 --> 08:35.020]  And I imagine there's quite a few others that our listeners would like to expand upon.
[08:36.400 --> 08:36.920]  Let's see.
[08:36.980 --> 08:38.600]  Why don't we look at some news stories?
[08:38.680 --> 08:39.240]  Do you have something there?
[08:39.780 --> 08:40.620]  Oh, I...
[08:40.620 --> 08:41.540]  Or are you just reading the paper?
[08:41.720 --> 08:44.400]  I was handed the Columbia Daily Spectator.
[08:44.540 --> 08:44.760]  Uh-huh.
[08:44.900 --> 08:48.000]  And they're encouraging me to take a position here.
[08:48.420 --> 08:54.860]  The ad says that when my friends ask me what I do, I could tell them I can't say.
[08:55.160 --> 08:56.620]  And it really ticks them off.
[08:57.100 --> 08:58.380]  You're reading an advertisement, I believe.
[08:58.440 --> 08:59.480]  Yes, I am reading an advertisement.
[08:59.680 --> 09:01.060]  It's from the National Security Agency.
[09:01.360 --> 09:02.180]  Now, Mike is here.
[09:02.240 --> 09:02.880]  He's from Columbia.
[09:03.000 --> 09:04.460]  Yes, he's the one who handed this to me.
[09:04.460 --> 09:05.980]  Now, let me see if I understand this correctly.
[09:06.100 --> 09:08.640]  The NSA is advertising in the Columbia Student Newspaper?
[09:08.660 --> 09:09.100]  It's a half-page ad.
[09:09.240 --> 09:11.780]  Yeah, this is a half-page ad from last Friday's paper.
[09:11.800 --> 09:13.120]  When I went to college, it was Domino's.
[09:13.220 --> 09:15.320]  I had a half-page ad, and we thought that was kind of objectionable.
[09:15.380 --> 09:16.480]  But now we have, what, the NSA?
[09:16.700 --> 09:17.240]  The NSA.
[09:18.480 --> 09:21.620]  NSA recruiters will be on campus at various times throughout the semester.
[09:21.800 --> 09:24.620]  For more details, please visit them at NSA.gov.
[09:24.620 --> 09:25.680]  Behind the nearest bush.
[09:27.380 --> 09:28.660]  How are you going to see them?
[09:29.480 --> 09:30.300]  I don't know.
[09:31.680 --> 09:33.420]  Why is the NSA doing this?
[09:33.800 --> 09:39.060]  I mean, if you want to join the NSA, I think you should be able to figure out where they are and go to them.
[09:39.060 --> 09:41.580]  Well, they're committed to cultural diversity in the workplace.
[09:41.880 --> 09:42.260]  Uh-huh.
[09:42.460 --> 09:42.880]  Well, that's good.
[09:42.980 --> 09:43.460]  That's good.
[09:44.140 --> 09:44.900]  That's not bad.
[09:45.100 --> 09:47.680]  So they'll be hiding behind palm trees and spruces.
[09:47.900 --> 09:48.640]  Something like that.
[09:48.860 --> 09:50.460]  Well, that's also not policy, by the way.
[09:50.880 --> 09:53.420]  When your friends ask what you do, tell them you can't say.
[09:53.580 --> 09:55.080]  That is definitely not NSA policy.
[09:55.220 --> 09:56.940]  You're supposed to say, I work for the Department of Defense.
[09:57.200 --> 10:01.900]  And if they ask further, you can kind of tell them what your general occupation is.
[10:02.380 --> 10:04.220]  And if they keep asking, you're supposed to report them.
[10:04.220 --> 10:07.740]  Is this a new ad, or is this something that was appearing before September 11th?
[10:07.880 --> 10:08.640]  I can't really say.
[10:08.760 --> 10:09.140]  28-17.
[10:09.140 --> 10:12.060]  I've seen ads for similar organizations in the past.
[10:12.300 --> 10:12.560]  Jim?
[10:12.780 --> 10:21.780]  The NSA has advertised off and on since the days I was in college, which you may recall was when we tried to get our hostages out of Iran.
[10:22.160 --> 10:25.000]  Oh, I thought that was when the pterodactyl were still aloft.
[10:25.120 --> 10:27.420]  That's how we tried to get the hostages out of Iran.
[10:27.680 --> 10:29.080]  Pterodactyls are very bad in the desert.
[10:30.380 --> 10:35.420]  Well, that went to bed as well as any military actions could go in the future.
[10:35.420 --> 10:36.100]  I'm trying here.
[10:38.040 --> 10:38.800]  All right.
[10:39.080 --> 10:40.840]  Here's some disturbing news.
[10:40.920 --> 10:50.780]  A holdover from the Clinton administration will oversee cybersecurity for President Bush, while a retired Army general will coordinate anti-terror efforts with military and intelligence counterparts.
[10:50.780 --> 10:58.240]  Richard Clark, who currently heads the government's counterterrorism team, will direct efforts to protect the nation's information infrastructure from attack.
[10:59.880 --> 11:05.700]  Retired Army General Wayne Downing will coordinate intelligence and military resources in the anti-terror campaign, they said.
[11:06.740 --> 11:10.780]  Clark has served as counterterrorism chief at the White House for more than a decade.
[11:10.780 --> 11:16.340]  He was appointed by President Clinton as the first national coordinator for security, infrastructure, protection, and counterterrorism.
[11:16.540 --> 11:20.600]  He will head the new, get this, Office of Cyberspace Security.
[11:21.680 --> 11:24.560]  The Office of Cyberspace Security headed by Dick Clark.
[11:29.660 --> 11:32.940]  I have to make it through this hour, so please don't make me laugh like that.
[11:34.960 --> 11:40.800]  The administration official said that he's going to head the new Office of Cyberspace Security, and they said that only on condition they not be identified.
[11:40.920 --> 11:41.460]  You have to wonder.
[11:42.720 --> 11:44.360]  Clark has pointedly...
[11:44.360 --> 11:45.060]  I don't believe this.
[11:45.100 --> 11:49.340]  This is like when Schwartow is actually pulling the strings here, because I'm seeing the same quotes.
[11:49.340 --> 12:01.660]  Clark has pointedly warned Congress, companies, and local agencies about the potential for a digital Pearl Harbor in which a terrorist attack would paralyze computers, electrical grids, and other key infrastructure.
[12:01.860 --> 12:09.360]  Do you remember that part in the Heraldo show where Wyn Schwartow was saying the digital Pearl Harbor, and they showed Hiroshima, the nuclear, you know, the atomic bomb going off?
[12:10.160 --> 12:16.880]  That was amusing for a few moments until you realize that some people actually take that as reality.
[12:19.340 --> 12:22.040]  So that's what we have to look forward to.
[12:23.160 --> 12:24.700]  Also, this interesting story.
[12:24.800 --> 12:37.960]  Despite recurrent warnings from official watchdog agencies and presidential commissions that airport security lapses could have catastrophic consequences, government efforts to remedy the problems have been frustrated repeatedly by cost-conscious airlines.
[12:38.780 --> 12:44.640]  And now a new commission has been impaneled to look at airport security after last week's, or two weeks ago, actually, devastating attacks.
[12:44.800 --> 12:45.780]  Three weeks, actually, isn't it?
[12:47.940 --> 12:49.260]  That's really what it boils down to.
[12:49.340 --> 12:52.720]  It's cost-cutting, you know, people not paying attention to things.
[12:52.900 --> 12:56.960]  And also, there's this weird sense that we can somehow control everything.
[12:57.300 --> 13:00.160]  You know, we can somehow prevent every little possible...
[13:00.160 --> 13:02.280]  Here's the fact, and it's a disturbing fact.
[13:02.540 --> 13:05.640]  If somebody really wants to hijack an airplane, they can do it.
[13:05.760 --> 13:07.260]  And they probably always will be able to.
[13:07.580 --> 13:09.160]  These people could have been unarmed.
[13:09.280 --> 13:12.060]  They could have been, you know, the defensive team for the Green Bay Packers.
[13:12.140 --> 13:13.980]  They could have taken over the airplane that way.
[13:14.060 --> 13:16.060]  You know, you ever see four football players together?
[13:16.060 --> 13:17.780]  They could have just punched people.
[13:17.780 --> 13:18.920]  It's easy.
[13:19.020 --> 13:22.100]  It's easy to take things over if you have enough people and you have the coordination.
[13:22.420 --> 13:24.960]  There is no way they're ever going to be able to stop that.
[13:25.180 --> 13:29.600]  People will always be able to smuggle in pieces of metal or sharp plastic or whatever.
[13:30.880 --> 13:32.880]  I think we're just going about this the wrong way.
[13:33.060 --> 13:35.840]  Yes, I think we should be arming everyone as they get on the aircraft.
[13:36.980 --> 13:40.660]  You know, you ever watch the show All in the Family from the 1970s?
[13:41.280 --> 13:43.260]  Archie Bunker made that very argument.
[13:43.540 --> 13:46.540]  And everybody laughed hysterically when he made that argument.
[13:46.780 --> 13:49.940]  And now, here you are, seriously, making that suggestion.
[13:50.080 --> 13:50.300]  Sure.
[13:50.460 --> 13:51.280]  And nobody's laughing.
[13:52.420 --> 13:53.820]  Great truths are eternal.
[13:54.580 --> 13:55.600]  It's, I mean...
[13:55.600 --> 13:58.140]  I mean, that should tell you something about where we're heading, you know.
[13:58.340 --> 14:01.840]  When we have to, like, take something that was written as a joke seriously.
[14:03.040 --> 14:04.160]  Arm all the passengers.
[14:04.720 --> 14:04.860]  Yeah.
[14:05.260 --> 14:08.400]  Just hand out the guns and collect them as they leave.
[14:08.700 --> 14:16.520]  You want to stand up in front of 212 people who are not very interested in going to Cuba and say, I'm taking over this flight.
[14:16.880 --> 14:18.680]  It's not a very smart thing to do.
[14:18.880 --> 14:23.420]  What happens when the food is bad and the passengers start shooting the flight attendants?
[14:23.480 --> 14:25.380]  Well, let's not go any further.
[14:25.580 --> 14:25.720]  That's a good idea, too.
[14:28.560 --> 14:36.940]  Alright, so we have all kinds of crazy reactions and mistruths and hypocrisy.
[14:37.160 --> 14:41.660]  The biggest hypocrisy of all is being told to return to our lives as normal.
[14:41.660 --> 14:47.840]  You know, it's basically, just go back to the way you were living, you know, and act normally.
[14:47.840 --> 14:49.980]  And that's the biggest strike again.
[14:50.120 --> 14:53.720]  Because the people who are saying that are doing anything but going back to normal.
[14:53.860 --> 14:59.520]  They're passing these unbelievably offensive laws that violate every bill of right there is.
[15:00.580 --> 15:03.960]  And then on top of that, they're closing airports.
[15:04.140 --> 15:06.380]  They closed Washington National Airport for three weeks.
[15:06.460 --> 15:07.440]  It's finally opening on Thursday.
[15:07.440 --> 15:13.120]  But, you know, to say that, yeah, the skies are safe again, except for this airport, because it goes over to the White House.
[15:13.720 --> 15:15.900]  That's telling us that, no, they're not really safe.
[15:15.900 --> 15:20.440]  They just want to protect one place and not really care about the other places as much.
[15:20.900 --> 15:23.820]  So, you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, I say.
[15:23.960 --> 15:24.560]  I understand.
[15:24.560 --> 15:30.860]  But, I mean, it's not as though we've suddenly been dropped into a world where terrorism is a threat.
[15:30.860 --> 15:36.280]  I mean, this has been a threat permeating our existence for decades.
[15:36.660 --> 15:41.260]  It's just now that a particular event has heightened the public's awareness to it.
[15:42.220 --> 15:48.160]  And lawmakers and everyone else is suddenly realizing, oh, gee, this is the world we're in.
[15:48.500 --> 15:50.740]  And it's very unfortunate.
[15:50.920 --> 15:54.660]  But that's not going to change by building more walls, by restricting freedoms.
[15:54.780 --> 15:59.820]  The reaction they're having is not appropriate to the events as they're playing out.
[16:00.860 --> 16:02.940]  So, you know, on one hand, we're being told not to panic.
[16:03.060 --> 16:05.400]  On the other hand, we're watching our government do just that.
[16:05.520 --> 16:07.720]  And I think that's something that we don't need to see right now.
[16:08.400 --> 16:09.540]  I don't know if they're panicking.
[16:09.800 --> 16:14.600]  Well, either they're panicking or they have this agenda that they've just been waiting to spring on.
[16:14.640 --> 16:15.920]  And this is the event that it took.
[16:16.320 --> 16:20.900]  I mean, Ashcroft basically said, pass this law in two days after September 11th.
[16:21.260 --> 16:25.300]  And, you know, he must have been surprised when Congress didn't do that.
[16:25.420 --> 16:27.220]  You know, and here it is three weeks later.
[16:28.060 --> 16:29.200]  Is it three weeks or two weeks?
[16:29.320 --> 16:30.440]  Three weeks later.
[16:32.620 --> 16:34.100]  And it still hasn't been passed.
[16:34.280 --> 16:34.940]  It's still being debated.
[16:35.220 --> 16:36.840]  It's still really, really bad.
[16:37.180 --> 16:38.660]  But it has not been passed yet.
[16:38.660 --> 16:41.800]  And I just heard Ashcroft on the radio saying how disappointed he is in this.
[16:42.600 --> 16:49.940]  And you have to wonder, you know, all the restrictions on freedoms that we are seeing in the Anti-Terrorism Act.
[16:51.380 --> 16:54.760]  To be disappointed that we're willing to stand up for those freedoms.
[16:55.120 --> 17:01.540]  You know, that's something I have to understand where someone's motivations are, that he would be disappointed in people standing up for their rights.
[17:02.640 --> 17:04.320]  So, the saga continues.
[17:04.580 --> 17:11.560]  And basically, probably the best thing to do is check out EFF.org for updates on this bill.
[17:11.640 --> 17:12.960]  I understand there are debates tomorrow.
[17:13.600 --> 17:15.320]  There might be a vote on Friday.
[17:15.440 --> 17:20.320]  And if that's been changed since I read it last, please somebody call in and let us know.
[17:22.520 --> 17:23.660]  So, what else?
[17:25.440 --> 17:28.460]  We were talking about making donations.
[17:28.860 --> 17:31.700]  We have a number for the American Red Cross.
[17:31.940 --> 17:33.260]  1-800-HELP-NOW.
[17:33.400 --> 17:37.680]  I'd like people to call that and be part of that as much as possible.
[17:37.980 --> 17:39.700]  Donate blood and all that kind of thing.
[17:40.060 --> 17:45.280]  Well, at this point, it's becoming more important that you actually start re-supporting your local charities.
[17:45.960 --> 18:04.600]  There have been reports that local charities, people who are feeding the homeless and taking care of things in local hospitals, say, up the road in Kansas, haven't been getting the same kind of funding that they have because it's all been going to the centralized sort of Red Cross disaster relief for the World Trade Center.
[18:04.720 --> 18:09.900]  And we're talking about half a billion dollars' worth of relief money coming to this event.
[18:09.900 --> 18:14.900]  But this doesn't mean that these other things that have stopped, there's still...
[18:15.500 --> 18:15.800]  Right.
[18:15.880 --> 18:17.520]  It has to continue on all levels.
[18:17.660 --> 18:17.820]  Yes.
[18:17.960 --> 18:19.200]  Especially with the...
[18:19.700 --> 18:22.160]  They say there's going to be impending economic disaster.
[18:22.560 --> 18:25.740]  The airlines, I know, have laid off thousands of people.
[18:25.960 --> 18:27.640]  Those people all need help right now.
[18:27.680 --> 18:28.360]  That's another thing.
[18:28.500 --> 18:29.040]  That's another thing.
[18:29.560 --> 18:33.480]  We're told to have some faith to hang in there.
[18:33.560 --> 18:34.920]  And what's the first thing the airlines do?
[18:34.960 --> 18:35.880]  They fire everybody.
[18:36.140 --> 18:38.100]  They don't want to hang in there for a second.
[18:38.100 --> 18:41.780]  As soon as they see their profits starting to go down a little bit, sorry, you're out of here.
[18:41.860 --> 18:43.640]  We're not going to take the fall for you.
[18:43.780 --> 18:45.040]  Well, that's been coming for a long time.
[18:45.200 --> 18:49.380]  Yeah, but they laid off, what, 100,000 people in the first couple of days?
[18:49.420 --> 18:50.820]  The industry is overpopulated.
[18:50.940 --> 18:51.900]  You've got too many companies battling it out.
[18:51.900 --> 18:54.340]  Right, but this is a direct result of September 11th.
[18:54.420 --> 18:56.440]  This was not something that was planned for that week.
[18:56.860 --> 19:01.900]  This is a little bit of a squeeze, and you're going to feel the effects magnified.
[19:02.040 --> 19:03.820]  But this was going to happen over the course of years.
[19:03.820 --> 19:07.260]  Yeah, but the people feeling the effects are the employees, not the actual company itself.
[19:07.260 --> 19:10.380]  They bailed as soon as things started to even look like they might be.
[19:10.380 --> 19:13.960]  The companies are receiving billions of dollars of bailout money from Congress.
[19:13.980 --> 19:14.540]  And that's another thing.
[19:14.540 --> 19:17.480]  Yet they're not helping their employees, they're helping themselves, the corporate workers.
[19:17.480 --> 19:21.260]  Why is it that the airlines get billions of dollars in help, the railroads don't?
[19:21.660 --> 19:27.040]  Okay, they're in far worse shape than the airlines, and they can certainly be used a lot now.
[19:27.800 --> 19:30.980]  But they don't get billions of dollars in aid when they're falling apart.
[19:31.380 --> 19:33.220]  We just allow them to fall apart.
[19:33.220 --> 19:35.020]  We allow the auto industry to dictate terms.
[19:35.220 --> 19:36.540]  We allow the airlines to dictate terms.
[19:37.460 --> 19:39.740]  There's a lot of hypocrisy going around.
[19:40.880 --> 19:42.140]  Also, other things that are going around.
[19:42.220 --> 19:42.900]  Rumors of war.
[19:42.960 --> 19:44.680]  Have you seen this website?
[19:45.320 --> 19:47.620]  It's called Snopes.com.
[19:47.700 --> 19:48.720]  S-N-O-P-E-S.
[19:49.320 --> 19:49.720]  Yeah.
[19:49.800 --> 19:52.540]  It's got a bunch of urban legends.
[19:52.540 --> 19:56.940]  I'm going to ask you, Isaac, to tell me if these are true or false.
[19:57.480 --> 19:58.540]  Oh, this is a test.
[19:58.600 --> 19:58.800]  Okay.
[19:59.080 --> 19:59.520]  Here we go.
[19:59.520 --> 20:06.500]  A Nostradamus prophecy about the fall of two brothers, meaning the World Trade Towers, predicts the imminent start of World War III.
[20:06.960 --> 20:07.340]  False.
[20:07.480 --> 20:07.840]  That is false.
[20:07.900 --> 20:08.140]  You're right.
[20:08.600 --> 20:16.440]  A photograph captured an unlucky tourist posing on the observation deck of a World Trade Center tower seconds before a hijacked airliner smashed into the building.
[20:16.560 --> 20:22.240]  Also false, and a very poor attempt at making that photo in the first place.
[20:22.240 --> 20:23.440]  Yeah, I couldn't believe that either.
[20:23.580 --> 20:25.020]  The guy's wearing winter clothing.
[20:25.220 --> 20:25.380]  Yeah.
[20:25.380 --> 20:26.320]  You know, it's September.
[20:26.320 --> 20:29.340]  Well, the plane was lit differently than anything else, too.
[20:29.860 --> 20:30.860]  It was really bad.
[20:31.660 --> 20:36.400]  CNN, and the guy would have turned around seeing, you know, an airliner only a few feet away from him approaching.
[20:36.780 --> 20:38.320]  He would have heard it for miles.
[20:39.220 --> 20:43.540]  CNN used old footage to fake images of Palestinians dancing in the street after the terrorist attack.
[20:43.660 --> 20:45.580]  Do you want me to just ask you if you're going to tell him all the answers?
[20:45.740 --> 20:47.200]  I'm saying the same things.
[20:47.880 --> 20:49.820]  If I disagree with him, I'm going to say my own.
[20:49.960 --> 20:50.880]  That is also false.
[20:50.980 --> 20:53.580]  CNN used live, well, not live footage, but recent footage.
[20:53.580 --> 20:59.320]  But we still don't know, and I hear a lot of people asking this, what the actual context of the footage was.
[20:59.740 --> 21:07.360]  And, you know, I've seen the passionate defenses of both BBC and CNN as far as the authenticity.
[21:07.740 --> 21:08.660]  Wait a second.
[21:08.800 --> 21:10.520]  What do you mean the context of the footage?
[21:10.640 --> 21:13.580]  Well, okay, what have you seen as far as the Palestinians celebrating?
[21:14.020 --> 21:17.980]  I've seen footage of them waving flags and jumping up and down and being happy.
[21:18.080 --> 21:18.260]  Right.
[21:18.560 --> 21:21.880]  Now, you don't know why they were jumping up and down, waving flags, and being happy.
[21:21.880 --> 21:23.500]  You don't know what came before that.
[21:23.640 --> 21:25.620]  You don't see somebody saying, hey, guys, guess what?
[21:25.780 --> 21:27.700]  The World Trade Center just fell down, you know?
[21:27.820 --> 21:28.060]  Okay.
[21:28.060 --> 21:29.360]  Isn't this a wonderful day for us?
[21:29.500 --> 21:37.560]  And immediately after, when CNN shows footage of some woman crying behind a police barricade and doesn't show the rest of the city, do you question what that's about?
[21:38.420 --> 21:41.740]  It's like, well, it could have been some pig that fell into a ditch, you know?
[21:41.740 --> 21:44.340]  Okay, it's... this should be kind of obvious there, fella.
[21:44.520 --> 21:46.360]  No, I don't... how do you see that as being obvious?
[21:46.540 --> 21:53.640]  I mean, that's a blanket condemnation to Palestinians to say that the only thing they could be happy about is the destruction of innocent lives in America.
[21:53.740 --> 21:54.780]  The reporter was there.
[21:54.920 --> 21:57.800]  He provided the context, which is actually one of the things I'm...
[21:57.800 --> 21:58.260]  What reporter?
[21:58.400 --> 21:59.400]  What's the reporter's name?
[21:59.680 --> 22:00.180]  I have no idea.
[22:00.200 --> 22:02.560]  Nobody has any idea because nobody takes credit for it.
[22:02.620 --> 22:04.340]  We just see the same footage over and over again.
[22:04.340 --> 22:04.620]  Reuters?
[22:04.920 --> 22:05.640]  It's from Reuters.
[22:05.720 --> 22:07.100]  You never hear who makes Reuters.
[22:07.220 --> 22:08.280]  Yeah, you don't know who is Reuters.
[22:08.420 --> 22:10.360]  Who's the actual guy that did this, all right?
[22:10.700 --> 22:13.360]  And, okay, I've got more questions.
[22:13.580 --> 22:15.720]  I'm questioning this other standard that's evolving around this footage.
[22:15.780 --> 22:16.820]  No, I've got more questions here.
[22:16.900 --> 22:16.940]  Go ahead.
[22:17.080 --> 22:21.500]  First of all, the person crying, I'm sure you'll see more than just somebody crying behind a police barricade.
[22:21.560 --> 22:25.020]  You probably see things around the person that were obvious what the person's crying about.
[22:25.260 --> 22:28.080]  In this particular case, you don't hear any sound.
[22:28.200 --> 22:30.780]  You just see people, you know, cheering and waving.
[22:30.980 --> 22:32.540]  You don't know what they're saying.
[22:32.540 --> 22:34.360]  You don't see what happened beforehand.
[22:34.660 --> 22:36.560]  Can you understand their language, eh?
[22:37.300 --> 22:38.580]  I know people who can.
[22:38.760 --> 22:39.140]  Okay.
[22:39.300 --> 22:41.600]  So let's hear exactly what was said.
[22:41.920 --> 22:46.080]  Let's rewind the tape a couple of minutes and see what happened right before the cheering started.
[22:46.280 --> 22:48.960]  Then we'll know the context of that particular report.
[22:49.080 --> 22:50.960]  Right now, we have no context to base it on.
[22:51.080 --> 22:52.100]  And that's the real problem.
[22:52.180 --> 22:53.060]  I'm not denying it happened.
[22:53.060 --> 22:57.820]  Why is this such a high demand for authenticity of this particular footage?
[22:57.880 --> 23:00.860]  Because it's being used as an instrument of hate.
[23:00.860 --> 23:03.600]  But it's, well, who's using it as an instrument of hate?
[23:03.600 --> 23:14.160]  Well, on September 11th, as things were happening, there was, on BBC, there was a, the left hand of the screen showed the World Trade Center on fire.
[23:14.400 --> 23:14.560]  Okay.
[23:14.660 --> 23:17.260]  The right hand of the screen showed Palestinians waving flags.
[23:17.880 --> 23:22.660]  Now, I happened to be on IRC, Internet Relay Chat at the time, and I saw the reaction of people who saw this.
[23:22.780 --> 23:25.740]  And they said they'd want to kill anyone who's Palestinian as a result of this.
[23:25.740 --> 23:33.520]  Now, you know, it's a horrible reaction, but it's an understandable reaction, because if you see those people as responsible for what happened, yeah, you would want to kill them too.
[23:33.640 --> 23:34.800]  It's a natural reaction.
[23:35.060 --> 23:41.600]  The fact of the matter is that that was something that was being, that was being laid out for us so that we would have that reaction.
[23:41.660 --> 23:45.420]  And if that's going to be the case, let's find out exactly why those people were cheering.
[23:45.560 --> 23:47.940]  I don't see why, why the reluctance to tell us this.
[23:48.000 --> 23:53.420]  I have very little regard for your friends who say they hate Palestinians by just seeing two pieces of footage juxtaposed.
[23:53.820 --> 23:59.260]  I mean, for them to be such mind-numbed robots to watch television and go, I must kill Palestinians.
[23:59.300 --> 24:10.580]  What other purpose would it be, you know, to have the two images next to each other like I'm not in the head of the BBC producer, and he probably got a, you know, a good smacking around for that, actually.
[24:11.680 --> 24:15.100]  But, I mean, these are two events that are related...
[24:15.100 --> 24:17.980]  If he got a good smacking around, how come it was repeated over and over and over again?
[24:18.000 --> 24:18.260]  I don't know.
[24:18.260 --> 24:31.120]  Do you remember a bunch of years ago on CBS, there was a split image with President Bush saying that the war effort must go forward, and I think it was, I forget which war it was, I'm pretty sure it was Bush, and then it might have been Reagan.
[24:31.420 --> 24:34.600]  It was one of the stupid wars where, you know, people were dying.
[24:35.300 --> 24:37.700]  As opposed to all the wonderful wars where people don't die.
[24:38.680 --> 24:39.080]  Exactly.
[24:40.120 --> 24:52.000]  You saw people, bodies getting unloaded off airplanes on one side of the screen, while on the other side of the screen, the President is kind of jovially saying, you know, we must continue fighting forward, moving ahead.
[24:52.000 --> 24:58.420]  And, of course, the White House was outraged by that because the juxtaposition made it appear that the two events were related.
[24:58.620 --> 24:59.400]  Same thing here.
[24:59.700 --> 25:00.880]  You have to have context.
[25:01.060 --> 25:03.380]  You have to know why these particular things are happening.
[25:03.380 --> 25:06.440]  I'm just saying that this ought to be obvious, and to set such a high standard...
[25:06.440 --> 25:07.420]  Why ought to be obvious?
[25:07.660 --> 25:08.600]  How is it obvious?
[25:08.700 --> 25:09.360]  That's what I don't get.
[25:09.840 --> 25:11.440]  Where is the obvious part of this?
[25:11.440 --> 25:15.820]  You have a Reuters reporter saying that he's standing in Palestine...
[25:15.820 --> 25:18.820]  An unnamed Reuters reporter who I haven't heard say anything.
[25:18.920 --> 25:19.040]  They never named them.
[25:19.140 --> 25:23.620]  Again, you're trying to set these high standards for this one single incident, which I can't possibly comprehend.
[25:24.080 --> 25:25.860]  I mean, I've heard all these...
[25:25.860 --> 25:31.980]  I've seen, rather, you don't hear email, but I've seen emails from people saying, well, then I guess the planet Earth has two suns.
[25:32.280 --> 25:38.300]  And then, you know, it takes about five lines to tell the guy, yes, well, here it's in the morning, over there it's in the afternoon.
[25:38.640 --> 25:40.440]  Yeah, those are things you can easily disprove.
[25:40.440 --> 25:46.000]  I understand, but why is there such a motivation to try to undermine this particular piece of footage?
[25:46.320 --> 25:47.160]  And say that it's not...
[25:47.160 --> 25:50.540]  Because of the conclusions that are based, if you take it at face value.
[25:51.120 --> 25:52.100]  Which are what?
[25:52.100 --> 25:56.520]  That the people were celebrating because they got news of an event that occurred in America.
[25:56.660 --> 26:00.360]  Something that has not been backed up in any other way except from those photographs.
[26:00.360 --> 26:00.860]  You know what?
[26:00.960 --> 26:02.600]  Let's assume that the footage is real.
[26:02.760 --> 26:03.920]  The footage is real.
[26:04.420 --> 26:05.380]  Let's assume...
[26:05.380 --> 26:06.760]  We don't know the context of the footage.
[26:06.820 --> 26:09.040]  Let's assume that it's an accurate context, even.
[26:09.560 --> 26:10.060]  So what?
[26:10.440 --> 26:14.760]  So there are stupid people in Palestine, just as there are stupid people in the U.S.
[26:14.820 --> 26:15.040]  Okay.
[26:15.980 --> 26:26.520]  If we bomb Afghanistan, there will be Americans who rejoice over the death of innocent Afghans, and that will be... we'll have stupid Americans.
[26:26.560 --> 26:32.060]  But that's the point that we should be able to settle on without trying to undermine this particular piece of footage.
[26:32.200 --> 26:35.860]  I can't understand why there's such a movement behind saying this is false.
[26:36.720 --> 26:38.280]  Because we don't know if it's true.
[26:38.540 --> 26:39.000]  That's the...
[26:39.000 --> 26:39.280]  That's...
[26:39.960 --> 26:40.680]  Such importance...
[26:40.680 --> 26:41.920]  Everybody is talking about this.
[26:42.060 --> 26:43.500]  Such importance is being placed on this.
[26:43.640 --> 26:51.400]  If you saw a crowd of people at Shea Stadium cheering on one side of the screen, you know, and saying these people are celebrating, you'd want to know a little bit more as to...
[26:51.400 --> 26:52.200]  Is that really true?
[26:52.320 --> 26:57.680]  Let's see a little bit more about this before you see people being condemned as celebrating without knowing the facts.
[26:57.680 --> 27:05.060]  Every piece of footage you ever see of someone in tears in America has to be, you know, bumpered by, and this woman is sad about the World Trade Center.
[27:05.060 --> 27:06.000]  Well, it's very rare that you see somebody...
[27:06.000 --> 27:07.040]  And this woman is sad about the World Trade Center.
[27:07.060 --> 27:11.500]  It's very rare that you see somebody over and over and over and over again without...
[27:11.500 --> 27:12.220]  These are different people.
[27:12.340 --> 27:13.300]  They're entirely different contexts.
[27:13.340 --> 27:15.500]  You have to establish it every single time.
[27:15.680 --> 27:16.320]  Are you going to listen to me?
[27:16.920 --> 27:24.480]  You do not see the same person over and over again crying without any sound as a representation of something that a lot of other people are doing.
[27:24.480 --> 27:25.280]  You don't see that.
[27:27.680 --> 27:28.340]  Hear the context.
[27:28.680 --> 27:31.440]  This piece is unusual because you don't hear a sound.
[27:31.600 --> 27:33.340]  You always see the same clip over and over again.
[27:33.620 --> 27:35.740]  It reeks of propaganda to me.
[27:35.840 --> 27:40.220]  And you've seen the same clip of the airliner flying into the building without sound over and over and over again.
[27:40.220 --> 27:41.380]  Because that only happened once.
[27:41.380 --> 27:42.200]  That was the event.
[27:42.200 --> 27:42.960]  That was the main thing.
[27:43.000 --> 27:43.800]  This is the reaction.
[27:44.640 --> 27:45.900]  This is a waste of time.
[27:46.140 --> 27:46.300]  Okay.
[27:46.540 --> 27:47.080]  It is.
[27:47.140 --> 27:47.820]  We should move on.
[27:48.540 --> 27:55.080]  One last comment on this, which is that the problem or the concern here is more subtle than either of you know.
[27:55.080 --> 27:59.000]  So, the problem is not that we are questioning this one piece of film.
[27:59.020 --> 28:02.140]  The problem is that we do not question all pieces of film.
[28:02.280 --> 28:03.540]  We should question everything.
[28:03.740 --> 28:04.040]  Absolutely.
[28:04.840 --> 28:12.060]  And, unfortunately, in days like this, when you question something, your allegiance to the Republic is questioned.
[28:12.680 --> 28:16.880]  You can't really say, is this really true?
[28:16.980 --> 28:18.480]  Like, for instance, the evidence.
[28:18.520 --> 28:19.400]  Inspector Clouseau, we're on a muck.
[28:19.580 --> 28:20.460]  The evidence.
[28:21.200 --> 28:21.780]  All right?
[28:21.840 --> 28:22.900]  We question the questioners.
[28:22.900 --> 28:23.680]  Where is this?
[28:23.780 --> 28:26.200]  The evidence supposedly has been released now to our allies.
[28:26.520 --> 28:26.900]  All right?
[28:27.020 --> 28:28.740]  We still can't see it for some reason.
[28:28.860 --> 28:29.720]  We're not able...
[28:29.720 --> 28:30.900]  To Tony Blair, who...
[28:30.900 --> 28:32.200]  No, I just don't understand.
[28:32.420 --> 28:35.580]  What risk is there from letting the American people know the evidence?
[28:35.720 --> 28:38.280]  What is Bin Laden going to say, wow, they really mean business.
[28:38.280 --> 28:39.160]  I'm going to hide now.
[28:39.780 --> 28:44.680]  I mean, for God's sake, he knows that, you know, Americans are searching for him.
[28:44.680 --> 28:50.900]  Because it reveals sources and methods, which is something that is considered a national security item.
[28:50.900 --> 28:54.000]  But more likely, it reveals ineptitude and malfeasance.
[28:54.520 --> 28:56.200]  And don't we have the right to know about these things?
[28:57.780 --> 28:58.140]  Certainly.
[28:58.380 --> 29:05.380]  However, this is why you elect your representatives, to deal with this sort of thing, until such time as it becomes more appropriate for you to be informed.
[29:05.620 --> 29:09.820]  Well, I think it's about time we got informed, because this is a time of crisis.
[29:09.820 --> 29:10.760]  We need to know what's going on.
[29:10.840 --> 29:13.920]  Anyway, we have a lot more of these urban legends.
[29:14.180 --> 29:14.480]  Oh, yes.
[29:14.600 --> 29:15.240]  Let's continue.
[29:15.240 --> 29:16.360]  Let me just go through a couple more of them.
[29:16.440 --> 29:17.940]  We can't spend 20 minutes talking about each one.
[29:17.940 --> 29:19.040]  And now I want to take some phone calls.
[29:19.980 --> 29:22.940]  Images of the World Trade Center fire reveal the face of Satan.
[29:23.620 --> 29:26.300]  It revealed a face, if you're really looking, yeah.
[29:26.540 --> 29:28.280]  Well, just about anything can reveal a face.
[29:29.580 --> 29:30.200]  That's the point.
[29:30.260 --> 29:35.000]  The planned cover for a hip-hop album due to be released in November depicted in an exploding World Trade Center.
[29:35.240 --> 29:36.240]  I wouldn't know about that.
[29:36.360 --> 29:36.820]  That is true.
[29:36.960 --> 29:37.340]  That is true.
[29:37.480 --> 29:37.880]  That is true.
[29:38.060 --> 29:50.160]  Television evangelists Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said that liberal civil liberties groups, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters bear partial responsibility for the terrorist attacks on the USA because their actions have turned God's anger against America.
[29:50.340 --> 29:50.760]  That's true.
[29:50.760 --> 29:53.720]  And it was very stupid of them to say in that manner.
[29:55.240 --> 29:59.580]  They kind of like stood out with a big target on their chest for that kind of...
[29:59.580 --> 30:04.520]  You can aid the search for Osama bin Laden by donating money to a band of Estonian hackers.
[30:05.180 --> 30:06.240]  That's what they say.
[30:06.400 --> 30:06.560]  What?
[30:07.640 --> 30:11.300]  That's one of the many disturbing hacker-related things that have been appearing in the news.
[30:11.300 --> 30:12.640]  Some have been lodged by donating...
[30:12.640 --> 30:13.640]  Where is Estonia anyway?
[30:14.400 --> 30:15.380]  Not on that map.
[30:15.460 --> 30:15.900]  It's in Europe.
[30:16.000 --> 30:16.840]  It's a Baltic Republic.
[30:16.960 --> 30:19.180]  Yeah, it's one of the countries we'll probably bomb at some point.
[30:19.860 --> 30:20.660]  We can do that.
[30:20.720 --> 30:23.620]  We can bomb all these countries and people won't care, you know, as long as we bomb somebody.
[30:23.720 --> 30:24.480]  But that's false.
[30:25.820 --> 30:29.980]  Man trapped high in the collapsing World Trade Tower rides the falling debris to safety.
[30:30.740 --> 30:31.880]  I would say that's false.
[30:31.960 --> 30:34.420]  That's false, even though that has been widely reported as true.
[30:34.660 --> 30:37.000]  Oh, was it the same guy who was in the photo with the plane?
[30:37.180 --> 30:38.300]  No one can find this guy.
[30:38.540 --> 30:38.720]  Okay.
[30:39.640 --> 30:44.560]  Clear Channel Communications has issued a list of songs officially banned from AirPlay to their American radio stations.
[30:44.760 --> 30:50.380]  That's not quite true in that they're not officially banned and they were just suggestions by a program manager.
[30:50.400 --> 30:51.460]  It got a little out of hand.
[30:51.580 --> 30:52.800]  It got very out of hand.
[30:53.060 --> 31:00.180]  Things got passed around and they have 1,500 stations now, so everybody was saying, well, you know, you can't play Imagine by John Lennon because that could offend some people.
[31:00.300 --> 31:08.520]  I think it started as a very good idea where it would be a little disturbing for people to hear certain, you know, pieces of music immediately afterwards.
[31:08.520 --> 31:09.240]  But here's the point.
[31:09.300 --> 31:11.320]  But that should be up to the program director.
[31:11.480 --> 31:12.560]  Nobody ever talks about this point.
[31:12.760 --> 31:15.400]  Yeah, the songs aren't officially banned.
[31:15.680 --> 31:15.880]  No.
[31:15.960 --> 31:22.440]  But name me one Clear Channel radio station where the person on the air has the ability to select a song in the first place.
[31:22.600 --> 31:23.360]  Well, that's a different...
[31:23.980 --> 31:26.400]  All songs are banned because you don't have that ability.
[31:26.400 --> 31:27.640]  You're told what to play.
[31:27.840 --> 31:28.980]  I want DJs back.
[31:29.540 --> 31:31.920]  I was having a conversation with someone about this some time ago.
[31:31.980 --> 31:32.940]  I want DJs back.
[31:35.080 --> 31:36.880]  Well, you might be a little late for that.
[31:37.220 --> 31:37.940]  We'll have to see.
[31:38.460 --> 31:40.480]  All right, let's read some listener mail and then we'll take phone calls.
[31:40.560 --> 31:41.880]  We still don't have our phones back.
[31:42.180 --> 31:42.800]  I don't know.
[31:42.960 --> 31:45.540]  I guess because the central office was pretty much destroyed.
[31:46.640 --> 31:50.780]  So we have these substitute phone lines at 212-9680-500.
[31:51.100 --> 31:55.620]  I don't suggest calling it immediately because unlike the other lines, these ones disconnect after a while.
[31:55.860 --> 31:55.960]  Yeah.
[31:56.480 --> 31:57.780]  Well, there's a reason for that.
[31:57.860 --> 32:03.120]  I mean, we're down here on Wall Street with all these minor or like pash lines.
[32:03.300 --> 32:05.080]  They don't want to tie them up with someone just calling.
[32:05.080 --> 32:05.800]  Well, that's not the reason.
[32:05.900 --> 32:12.760]  The reason is that the phone companies disconnect lines after they ring, unlike in the past when you could ring forever, which is good for call-in shows.
[32:12.980 --> 32:13.200]  Okay.
[32:13.420 --> 32:14.520]  And people you're trying to wake up.
[32:14.640 --> 32:15.760]  At the moment, we'd rather have the line.
[32:16.200 --> 32:16.600]  Yeah.
[32:17.840 --> 32:19.740]  Okay, here's some...
[32:19.740 --> 32:20.600]  Listener mail.
[32:20.740 --> 32:21.340]  Listener mail.
[32:21.600 --> 32:22.940]  I work near the CityCorp building.
[32:23.100 --> 32:25.100]  I've seen a lot of the monthly 2600 meetings there.
[32:25.100 --> 32:27.780]  I've always wanted to go to one of the meetings, but haven't had a chance.
[32:27.960 --> 32:35.240]  With all the new restrictions on access to the public space in the CityCorp building, will 2600 still be having a meeting there this Friday?
[32:36.280 --> 32:40.860]  Well, I'm not aware of any additional security restricting access.
[32:41.060 --> 32:44.960]  Maybe somebody could investigate that by Friday and let us know.
[32:44.960 --> 32:52.900]  But as far as I know and as far as everybody else involved is aware, the meetings are taking place as scheduled.
[32:53.080 --> 32:55.000]  We encourage people to come to the meetings.
[32:55.000 --> 33:01.080]  I know it's going to be kind of traumatic for those of you who haven't been in the city since this happened.
[33:01.380 --> 33:08.760]  But it really is important that we not let this keep us from living life.
[33:08.940 --> 33:09.180]  Certainly.
[33:10.020 --> 33:12.840]  I mean, I'm going to have a really difficult time getting on an airplane again.
[33:12.960 --> 33:13.360]  I'll tell you that.
[33:13.460 --> 33:14.400]  I'm sure most people will.
[33:14.560 --> 33:15.480]  You see, I can't understand...
[33:15.480 --> 33:20.720]  I always go through these phases, right, where, you know, I finally get over the fear of flying.
[33:21.060 --> 33:23.460]  Because it really is, you know, there's all these things that can happen.
[33:23.540 --> 33:24.640]  But it's an irrational fear.
[33:24.820 --> 33:26.000]  Why is it an irrational fear?
[33:26.140 --> 33:26.920]  Because if you look at...
[33:26.920 --> 33:31.520]  Exploding in the middle of the ocean, you know, coming down too fast, hitting a mountain.
[33:31.800 --> 33:32.140]  Okay.
[33:32.220 --> 33:32.440]  You know?
[33:32.560 --> 33:33.660]  How often does that happen?
[33:33.760 --> 33:35.480]  I mean, the data that you can collect...
[33:35.480 --> 33:37.500]  Often enough for it to be of concern, you know?
[33:38.760 --> 33:41.620]  It's far more likely that I would be killed crossing the street.
[33:41.700 --> 33:42.040]  Exactly.
[33:42.320 --> 33:43.720]  I mean, that's why it's an irrational.
[33:43.760 --> 33:46.420]  But that's probably because of a mistake that you make.
[33:46.640 --> 33:48.400]  That's not because of a mistake some other person made.
[33:48.460 --> 33:54.300]  I mean, you had a pilot crash an airliner into the ocean, you know, because he wasn't feeling good that day or something like that.
[33:54.300 --> 33:58.920]  You're putting your lives in the hands of people that oftentimes are underpaid, underqualified.
[33:58.960 --> 34:00.400]  You do that every time you get in a car.
[34:01.300 --> 34:02.680]  Not if you're driving, you don't.
[34:02.760 --> 34:03.300]  Yes, you do.
[34:03.480 --> 34:07.900]  The truck next to you, the guy who's got like one bad eye and the other one is half patient.
[34:07.900 --> 34:08.760]  Isaac, you have a chance.
[34:08.960 --> 34:10.180]  You can see something happening.
[34:10.300 --> 34:11.120]  You can take action.
[34:11.240 --> 34:13.580]  You can't do anything on an airplane.
[34:13.600 --> 34:14.720]  That's my point.
[34:14.880 --> 34:18.540]  But that's a very interesting psychological sort of thing, which we could go into for an hour.
[34:18.560 --> 34:20.440]  Anyway, what I'm saying is, I finally got over...
[34:20.440 --> 34:25.800]  The first time I got over this fear was the summer when TWA 800 decided to explode, all right?
[34:25.960 --> 34:27.740]  That happened and all of a sudden my fear was back.
[34:27.880 --> 34:31.380]  Now, you know, after coming back from Europe, I'm like, hey, I can travel all over the place.
[34:31.460 --> 34:32.140]  This is kind of cool.
[34:32.420 --> 34:37.000]  And now, you know, four airplanes in the same day get taken over by people and crash into buildings.
[34:37.180 --> 34:38.840]  So it's, you know...
[34:38.840 --> 34:40.720]  And I would encourage you to do rail travel.
[34:40.720 --> 34:42.260]  I think being afraid is a normal reaction.
[34:42.360 --> 34:43.180]  It really is.
[34:43.260 --> 34:44.580]  But we have to get over that fear.
[34:44.640 --> 34:45.480]  I have to get over that fear.
[34:45.580 --> 34:49.200]  People have to get over the fear of coming into the city and being, you know, together with other people.
[34:49.240 --> 34:53.760]  Because if you don't, the, you know, the consequences of that are just too great.
[34:53.760 --> 35:00.900]  Well, I have a feeling that this coming 2600 meeting is going to be a lot more somber and a lot more personal than anyone before.
[35:01.480 --> 35:02.640]  Because you're going to...
[35:02.640 --> 35:05.740]  I have a feeling that people will be quietly taking count.
[35:06.580 --> 35:10.580]  Just walking around and making sure they see all the right faces and saying, well, okay...
[35:10.580 --> 35:12.020]  Well, this will affect us in some way.
[35:12.160 --> 35:15.540]  Whether it be somebody directly at the meeting or somebody who knew somebody.
[35:15.740 --> 35:16.780]  And that's something that we...
[35:16.780 --> 35:19.200]  And that'll be true of meetings throughout the world, I'm sure.
[35:19.600 --> 35:20.480]  At the same time.
[35:20.480 --> 35:26.140]  What I would like to suggest for people that are coming to the meeting is everybody, you know, keep that in mind.
[35:26.360 --> 35:33.020]  That, you know, value the company of those who are there, you know, more so than you might have in the past.
[35:33.220 --> 35:38.100]  And also, as we mentioned before, take part in, you know, do what you can.
[35:38.480 --> 35:39.760]  Make those contributions.
[35:40.000 --> 35:40.400]  Donate blood.
[35:40.480 --> 35:41.900]  Whatever it is that you want to do.
[35:42.300 --> 35:44.020]  Imagine if everybody came to the meetings.
[35:44.040 --> 35:45.660]  We have meetings all over the world, you know.
[35:45.660 --> 35:47.260]  And we have lots of people that come to each of the meetings.
[35:47.480 --> 35:56.000]  If everybody donated something or gave blood, it would have a significant impact on some of the crises going on in this country and the world.
[35:56.420 --> 35:58.800]  And it's not that difficult to do.
[35:58.960 --> 35:59.960]  It would be good publicity.
[36:00.460 --> 36:02.440]  No, we're not doing it for publicity at all.
[36:02.680 --> 36:03.040]  All right.
[36:03.440 --> 36:04.260]  Maybe we should call the Red Cross.
[36:04.260 --> 36:07.040]  If we're doing it for publicity, we'd be saying, oh, go through us and do that.
[36:07.120 --> 36:08.440]  Everybody do this as individuals.
[36:08.800 --> 36:08.880]  Yeah.
[36:09.000 --> 36:11.120]  Well, if we call the Red Cross, they might send over a van.
[36:11.780 --> 36:12.600]  That could be interesting.
[36:12.860 --> 36:15.280]  It pains me to agree with what Isaac said earlier.
[36:15.660 --> 36:17.640]  But there are other causes...
[36:17.640 --> 36:18.500]  Oh, thanks a lot.
[36:18.640 --> 36:20.300]  You say that so solemnly.
[36:21.020 --> 36:22.160]  ...that need your support.
[36:22.400 --> 36:22.660]  Uh-huh.
[36:23.740 --> 36:28.460]  And the Red Cross, well, I've given them money and I encourage everyone to do so.
[36:29.480 --> 36:33.220]  And they're doing absolutely wonderful things in the face of this tragedy.
[36:33.640 --> 36:34.820]  1-800-HELP-NOW.
[36:35.020 --> 36:41.700]  There are also a lot of other organizations whose 800 numbers we don't have right in front of us right now who really need your support also.
[36:41.900 --> 36:44.840]  Okay, but since we have their 800 number, we're reading that one.
[36:44.900 --> 36:45.080]  Okay.
[36:45.080 --> 36:49.160]  And if you have other ones, well, you know, if it's that important, carry it with you and we'll read those.
[36:49.620 --> 36:53.180]  I'd like to make a plea that Isaac was probably too self-conscious to make.
[36:53.380 --> 36:55.840]  We lost a lot of Republicans in the World Trade Center.
[36:56.000 --> 36:56.740]  Oh, please.
[36:57.540 --> 37:00.120]  So if you can see it in your heart to vote Republican this year.
[37:00.540 --> 37:00.840]  Ooh.
[37:01.500 --> 37:03.380]  You know, I think you've exceeded George W.
[37:03.520 --> 37:04.820]  Bush in shamelessness.
[37:05.040 --> 37:05.200]  Ooh.
[37:05.680 --> 37:06.880]  It's interesting to note that...
[37:06.880 --> 37:07.220]  I really think that.
[37:07.460 --> 37:08.480]  I'm not even in the knowledge of that.
[37:08.480 --> 37:13.720]  There are presumably a number of undocumented so-called illegal workers.
[37:14.160 --> 37:16.360]  I don't understand how a person can be illegal.
[37:16.560 --> 37:18.160]  But anyway...
[37:18.160 --> 37:18.900]  Why are we...
[37:18.900 --> 37:19.400]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[37:19.580 --> 37:23.940]  We have a number of souls that have been lost and are missing.
[37:23.940 --> 37:31.640]  Do we have to start, like, taking a little exacto knife and carving up what particular ethnic group or culture they were or this, that, or the other thing?
[37:31.640 --> 37:33.120]  Well, I think in this particular case...
[37:33.120 --> 37:33.960]  I mean, we're all New Yorkers.
[37:34.080 --> 37:34.460]  Yeah, but...
[37:34.460 --> 37:35.080]  I think that's a...
[37:35.080 --> 37:35.580]  That's his priority.
[37:35.580 --> 37:38.680]  But in a sense, we aren't all New Yorkers because these people may never be counted.
[37:38.800 --> 37:45.720]  I remember when the airplane crashed into the apartment building across from my friend's street in Amsterdam, which is another reason why I was afraid to fly in airplanes.
[37:46.960 --> 37:52.720]  A lot of the people living there were illegal aliens as well and they never found out how many people died because they didn't count.
[37:52.720 --> 37:58.380]  In all seriousness, I actually know something about this because my first job was in the restaurant industry, believe it or not.
[37:58.840 --> 38:03.760]  Yeah, a lot of people who are busboys and waiters are what are known as undocumented aliens.
[38:04.020 --> 38:19.620]  And the Restaurant Workers Union and I think some industry group are starting a fund for these people who otherwise are likely to slip through the cracks in all the government and charitable organizations that are coming together after this incident.
[38:20.540 --> 38:35.080]  So if you don't want to contribute to the Red Cross or to any of these gigantic firms, please try to look that up on the web or wherever and that's something that you can give to that probably is not getting it anywhere near as much money as any of the others.
[38:36.120 --> 38:37.060]  You don't have a number for them?
[38:38.300 --> 38:38.940]  Not on me.
[38:39.720 --> 38:41.260]  This is stuff you can investigate.
[38:42.260 --> 38:42.800]  All right.
[38:43.280 --> 38:45.320]  Let's read a couple more letters and we'll take some phone calls.
[38:46.640 --> 38:51.720]  I'm sick of this crap about how a Jordanian has implanted digital mulls in all of our government's information systems.
[38:51.860 --> 38:52.900]  I've never heard that one either.
[38:53.540 --> 38:57.180]  Why don't we stand up as a hacker's community and find the whereabouts of bin Laden ourselves?
[38:57.640 --> 38:58.260]  Come on, guys.
[38:58.260 --> 38:58.800]  Guys, what do you say?
[38:59.520 --> 39:03.780]  They have their own hackers, their own satellites, their own computers.
[39:04.520 --> 39:12.440]  Why don't we divert our attention to them and not do any of this DOS, denial of service stuff, but track him and find him and see what he is using against us.
[39:12.480 --> 39:12.940]  Any objections?
[39:13.100 --> 39:14.200]  I'll be the first to start.
[39:14.440 --> 39:14.660]  Okay.
[39:14.740 --> 39:15.220]  Any questions?
[39:15.220 --> 39:19.960]  Okay, well, since you want to be the first to start, let's see, is this the...
[39:20.880 --> 39:21.460]  You know what?
[39:21.920 --> 39:24.360]  I was going to give out his email address, but the email...
[39:24.360 --> 39:29.180]  No, the email address he gives is different than the email address it came from, so this could be fake mail.
[39:29.240 --> 39:31.020]  I think this can have two responses.
[39:31.220 --> 39:32.840]  The first is, you're an idiot.
[39:33.980 --> 39:35.460]  That's a lot kinder than I would have been.
[39:36.300 --> 39:40.760]  You know, it's not as though we don't have national agencies who do this kind of thing.
[39:40.760 --> 39:45.600]  You've got the NSA, which has been collecting signals and communications intelligence for a very long time.
[39:46.080 --> 39:51.860]  This has really been a failure of human intelligence, this particular aspect, and I don't think hackers can help in that capacity.
[39:54.920 --> 40:14.860]  However, the reason the NSA, perhaps, is trying to step up their ad campaign and a bunch of other agencies are, you know, trying to attract a certain amount of interest is that, yes, there is a very large pool of talent in the hacker community, and this is something that can be tapped for defense purposes.
[40:15.120 --> 40:29.680]  And I think if that's something you are willing to do, there's no reason that you shouldn't, you know, perhaps approach a military recruiter or your law enforcement officer or agency and say, you know what?
[40:29.800 --> 40:31.160]  Hey, I know how this works.
[40:31.360 --> 40:32.600]  Let me help you with it.
[40:33.540 --> 40:35.400]  I can be of some use.
[40:35.740 --> 40:49.960]  And that, I think, is going to be a lot more effective where you can direct your energy and have it utilized in a constructive way than to try and form these little posses and run around and basically be a pain in the ass for the guys who are trying to...
[40:49.960 --> 40:53.000]  Well, not only that, but it also adds to the argument that...
[40:53.000 --> 40:54.560]  Exactly, that hackers are terrorists.
[40:55.300 --> 40:55.500]  Exactly.
[40:56.020 --> 41:00.580]  And the people who advocate this invariably don't know what they're talking about.
[41:00.700 --> 41:02.020]  They don't have any abilities themselves.
[41:02.020 --> 41:10.440]  They just, they subscribe to this, you know, National Enquirer review of the hacker world as, you know, people who can do anything.
[41:10.700 --> 41:22.200]  You know, it's basically like the MTV thing where, you know, I can look at your credit, I can do this, I can do that, I've been to the end of the internet and back, and I don't have to prove anything to you because I'm, you know, a magical, you know, person that can do anything.
[41:22.480 --> 41:29.820]  I should also point out in this specific case that Bin Laden lives in Afghanistan, which is not the most technology advanced country in the world.
[41:29.860 --> 41:30.780]  Well, that's true as well.
[41:31.020 --> 41:31.440]  That's true as well.
[41:31.560 --> 41:32.480]  And, you know, to...
[41:32.480 --> 41:34.860]  Tin can and string IP is a wonderful thing, man.
[41:34.860 --> 41:43.360]  To ping flood anybody that's, you know, Afghan-related is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do, as well as any other real-life equivalents.
[41:43.680 --> 41:47.100]  You know, basically, people from Afghanistan are not the enemy here.
[41:47.160 --> 41:49.840]  And I think even our government seems to realize that now.
[41:49.980 --> 41:55.320]  If you're motivated to the point where you desperately want to apply your knowledge, try to find a place to fit in.
[41:56.360 --> 42:05.600]  Military, law enforcement, even if it's just a matter of, you know, being able or available where somebody has a question, they can ask you.
[42:06.140 --> 42:09.100]  Don't run off and form posses and basically be a painter.
[42:09.220 --> 42:13.060]  Here's a letter from the Los Angeles Times, which kind of relates to this.
[42:13.140 --> 42:16.280]  Computer hackers should also be included in the massive search for terrorists.
[42:16.820 --> 42:20.280]  They may not be killing anyone, but they have been inflicting damage to our businesses.
[42:20.500 --> 42:24.280]  Patriotism is running high in this country, but this group certainly is not participating.
[42:26.180 --> 42:27.060]  I can't...
[42:27.060 --> 42:28.200]  A little taste of America there.
[42:28.980 --> 42:34.300]  I think that you're very talented hackers are some of the most patriotic individuals in this country.
[42:35.220 --> 42:40.600]  Yeah, just fighting things like the ATA is one form of patriotism that you can engage in.
[42:41.840 --> 42:44.360]  I've been listening to every recording of Off the Hook since the beginning.
[42:44.560 --> 42:46.420]  I'm at the end of 1992 right now.
[42:46.500 --> 42:46.980]  It was a good year.
[42:47.140 --> 42:48.040]  Wow, what a waste of time.
[42:48.200 --> 42:51.340]  I mean, what an interested listener there.
[42:51.340 --> 42:52.780]  I think Off the Hook is a great show.
[42:52.860 --> 42:57.080]  I was wondering if it's heavily copyrighted or if I can host it on my servers for people to download.
[42:57.280 --> 42:57.840]  Well, the answer,
[43:03.260 --> 43:06.860]  you don't sell it and use it to make a profit somehow.
[43:06.980 --> 43:14.360]  Not that you ever could make a profit from this, I don't think, but if you have a radio station, by all means, rebroadcast us.
[43:14.460 --> 43:15.840]  If you have a website, by all means, host us.
[43:16.120 --> 43:17.560]  We want the word to get out.
[43:17.620 --> 43:21.380]  And if you can figure out a way to make a profit from this, please inform us and we might cut you in on it.
[43:21.380 --> 43:22.480]  We like to know that.
[43:24.820 --> 43:25.640]  I'm a big fan.
[43:25.720 --> 43:27.280]  I visit a lot just to keep up on news.
[43:27.380 --> 43:28.060]  I hope to get that.
[43:28.280 --> 43:32.520]  I hope that the ATA doesn't go through or at least that they redo most of it.
[43:32.540 --> 43:35.400]  And I think he joins most of our listeners in believing that.
[43:35.600 --> 43:39.680]  The ATA, the Anti-Terrorism Agency, is an actual thing they're trying to...
[43:39.680 --> 43:40.500]  Anti-Terrorism Act.
[43:40.840 --> 43:41.660]  Oh, the Act.
[43:41.780 --> 43:42.400]  Okay, I'm sorry.
[43:43.240 --> 43:44.060]  I read your article.
[43:44.160 --> 43:44.720]  Agree with...
[43:44.720 --> 43:46.820]  We have an article on the website, too, on 2600.com.
[43:46.900 --> 43:53.460]  I read your article and agree with you guys wholeheartedly, but when talking to one of my friends about the restrictions of the ATA, they had an interesting point.
[43:53.600 --> 44:03.580]  What they said was terrorists could get hold of computer knowledge that someone could supply, such as CyberArmy.com, Hackers.com, or even 2600.com, and use it against government computers.
[44:03.980 --> 44:09.080]  Whoever teaches about network security had better be legally qualified and do background checks on people.
[44:09.160 --> 44:11.020]  Otherwise, it should be against the law.
[44:11.220 --> 44:13.520]  I wonder if you could provide a good argument against this reasoning.
[44:15.900 --> 44:16.420]  Okay.
[44:17.080 --> 44:18.120]  Legally qualified.
[44:18.120 --> 44:19.880]  Is there a certifying authority?
[44:20.020 --> 44:20.820]  Licensed hackers.
[44:20.820 --> 44:24.140]  Well, maybe this new cyber-terrorism agency can license us.
[44:24.880 --> 44:33.040]  Second, I mean, this is not exactly knowledge that is already kept in a little vault and that you need a key to turn it open.
[44:33.160 --> 44:38.520]  I mean, this is stuff that has been learned by trial and error and experimentation, and it's stuff that comes out of the category.
[44:38.520 --> 44:39.820]  And it will be learned one way or another.
[44:39.820 --> 44:40.900]  You can't stop learning.
[44:41.240 --> 44:49.880]  If a particular computer program does this, somebody's going to know it does this, and by not telling people that it does this, you're just basically keeping the people who need to know about it.
[44:49.940 --> 45:06.840]  On the other hand, I don't think someone should be running around willy-nilly and informing everyone under the sun that, oh, I have this wonderful way of doing X, Y, and Z, and we can specifically impact this, that, and the other thing, I mean, there is a certain amount of security that should be in mind.
[45:06.860 --> 45:09.980]  If there's a security vulnerability, does not the public have a right to know about it?
[45:10.000 --> 45:14.880]  Yes, but, I mean, there are responsible ways of dealing with this and there are irresponsible ways of dealing with this.
[45:14.920 --> 45:17.720]  Well, I think informing the public is one of the responsible ways of dealing with it.
[45:17.860 --> 45:22.060]  Well, all right, this has been an argument on bug track for years and years and years.
[45:22.060 --> 45:24.220]  This is not a new issue that's just appeared.
[45:24.540 --> 45:39.560]  I mean, the kind of basic consent on bug track of how you inform someone of a potential Special vulnerability is that you give the manufacturer or those involved a period of time where they get the knowledge ahead of time, where they can respond, and they're given the opportunity to respond.
[45:39.700 --> 45:43.180]  And you work with those people and say, you know, well, how far along are you?
[45:43.760 --> 45:52.540]  And, I mean, we can go deep into why you put it out before they're finished fixing it, to move them to respond, and this, that, and the other thing.
[45:52.880 --> 45:56.000]  Either way, whether they fix it or not, I think that people have the right to know that.
[45:56.000 --> 45:57.340]  Yes, eventually, yes.
[45:57.520 --> 46:06.780]  But, I mean, there are... there's a responsibility in the release of the information that should be seriously considered by someone who figures it out, I feel.
[46:07.120 --> 46:10.140]  Well, I think responsibility is very different from legality.
[46:10.380 --> 46:13.340]  You know, if you want to say somebody acted irresponsibly, it does not mean they acted illegally.
[46:13.560 --> 46:13.740]  True.
[46:14.260 --> 46:17.440]  There is no licensing authority for security...
[46:17.440 --> 46:17.660]  Okay.
[46:17.880 --> 46:19.600]  Jim, quickly, we want to get the phone calls.
[46:19.600 --> 46:23.440]  The first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, they drove a truck in.
[46:23.860 --> 46:26.880]  We should have federally licensed driving schools.
[46:27.940 --> 46:28.860]  That's a good point.
[46:29.000 --> 46:29.660]  That I can see.
[46:29.840 --> 46:32.080]  The computer thing, I have trouble with, but, yeah, the driving...
[46:32.080 --> 46:33.340]  Hey, well, are you serious?
[46:33.360 --> 46:34.280]  You can't be serious.
[46:34.440 --> 46:36.500]  I mean, this is a reductio ad absurdum.
[46:36.580 --> 46:40.020]  I am giving you the absurd argument as to why...
[46:40.020 --> 46:41.700]  And he's giving you a sarcastic reply.
[46:41.700 --> 46:43.020]  I fell right into that, didn't I?
[46:44.100 --> 46:45.500]  Sorry, I take him too literally.
[46:46.920 --> 46:48.740]  Yeah, that's something to consider, definitely.
[46:49.600 --> 46:50.220]  Here's another letter.
[46:50.380 --> 46:53.120]  If this bill passes, our concept of America will be changed forever.
[46:53.320 --> 47:00.060]  Right now, I am worried about another terrorist attack, but I am terrified at our own government and powers they hold that could destroy every civil liberty we hold.
[47:00.240 --> 47:01.800]  Forget about the Fourth and First Amendments.
[47:01.880 --> 47:03.800]  Forget about being innocent until proven guilty.
[47:04.040 --> 47:10.060]  If I use encryption or converse about computer security, it may put me under the suspicion of being a terrorist without my knowledge.
[47:10.200 --> 47:14.320]  I fear how many people whose lives will be destroyed by false accusations and minor offenses.
[47:14.540 --> 47:17.800]  If the terrorists wanted to change American life, they may have succeeded.
[47:18.360 --> 47:19.960]  I couldn't have put that better myself.
[47:20.880 --> 47:22.780]  And finally, I heard you on Off the Hook on September 25th.
[47:22.820 --> 47:25.600]  Heard you read the quote from Babylon 5 on the air, the day of the attacks.
[47:25.720 --> 47:31.340]  I was thinking about it as well, and I was wondering if I was the only crazy guy quoting a fictitious religion at a time like this.
[47:31.340 --> 47:33.100]  Thanks for being the second guy.
[47:33.240 --> 47:34.360]  That meant a lot to me.
[47:34.360 --> 47:50.180]  And yeah, you know, in fact, it was interesting because yesterday on the Sci-Fi Channel, there was the episode that took place after, if you follow the story at all, after the assassination of the Earth President and the blowing up of Earth Force One had taken place.
[47:50.180 --> 47:51.460]  It was the episode after that.
[47:51.600 --> 47:54.860]  And everybody was still kind of in a stunned silence.
[47:55.140 --> 47:56.620]  You know, they couldn't deal with it.
[47:56.660 --> 47:58.900]  They kept seeing it over and over again, replaying in their eyes.
[47:58.900 --> 48:01.960]  I couldn't think of anything that was more apropos to what occurred here.
[48:02.960 --> 48:07.900]  And I think that's one program that really captures that spirit, that feeling.
[48:08.100 --> 48:10.180]  So yeah, that's one quote I read last week.
[48:10.320 --> 48:10.820]  There's many others.
[48:11.320 --> 48:12.380]  All right, let's take some phone calls.
[48:12.460 --> 48:14.360]  212-968-0500.
[48:14.360 --> 48:16.080]  Let's see who's out there.
[48:16.300 --> 48:16.840]  Good evening.
[48:16.960 --> 48:17.660]  You're on the air.
[48:18.340 --> 48:19.760]  Hi, this is Paul from Queens.
[48:19.960 --> 48:20.300]  How you doing?
[48:20.520 --> 48:21.100]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[48:21.720 --> 48:26.620]  Listen, Emmanuel, I have to agree with what you said before about the juxtaposition of the Palestinian footage.
[48:27.260 --> 48:29.160]  I think I'm using the term correctly.
[48:29.360 --> 48:29.520]  Yes.
[48:29.860 --> 48:30.000]  Yeah.
[48:30.320 --> 48:31.480]  You know, back...
[48:31.480 --> 48:33.480]  Remember when Iraq invaded Kuwait?
[48:33.640 --> 48:36.460]  There were the stories of the incubator babies being killed.
[48:37.000 --> 48:37.840]  That was...
[48:37.840 --> 48:38.560]  Yeah, I remember that.
[48:38.760 --> 48:40.220]  Yeah, that was such a big lie.
[48:40.440 --> 48:43.380]  No one said, wait a second now, that's a pretty strong charge.
[48:43.780 --> 48:46.240]  Can we have some details about this?
[48:46.480 --> 48:47.720]  Can we have some confirmation?
[48:48.080 --> 48:49.380]  Well, details just get in the way.
[48:49.720 --> 48:50.080]  Exactly.
[48:50.400 --> 48:54.580]  You want a particular reaction from people, you can't mess it up with details.
[48:54.580 --> 48:57.500]  Do you remember the actress who testified in front of the U.N.
[48:57.540 --> 48:59.260]  as to the rape games in Iraq?
[48:59.440 --> 49:04.360]  And it turned out later she was an actress that was really performing an Emmy award-winning appearance.
[49:05.460 --> 49:06.420]  Yeah, I remember that.
[49:06.560 --> 49:08.520]  So, yeah, you have to take everything with a grain of salt.
[49:08.600 --> 49:11.320]  That doesn't mean that you don't believe it, you just want to see the evidence.
[49:11.700 --> 49:13.900]  Yeah, also, I have some information to give you.
[49:14.740 --> 49:18.920]  I'm wondering to myself what role MKUltra has played in all this.
[49:19.840 --> 49:23.920]  Remember MKUltra, the mind control experiment by the CIA in the 1960s?
[49:23.920 --> 49:24.660]  In what aspect?
[49:24.880 --> 49:25.220]  Yeah, really.
[49:26.800 --> 49:27.720]  You know, it's funny.
[49:27.820 --> 49:32.660]  The people who did this should have known that it was going to galvanize this country for war.
[49:33.140 --> 49:39.480]  And what's going on now with this terrorist attack, this is exactly what the North American Empire wanted.
[49:39.720 --> 49:40.840]  Well, ask yourself...
[49:40.840 --> 49:41.400]  That's a good point.
[49:41.560 --> 49:44.860]  Ask yourself the question, who benefits from what happened on September 11th?
[49:44.900 --> 49:45.580]  The Islamic world?
[49:45.660 --> 49:46.420]  No, they don't benefit.
[49:46.640 --> 49:47.300]  Certainly not.
[49:47.820 --> 49:49.680]  But do people like us benefit?
[49:49.820 --> 49:50.160]  Hackers?
[49:50.300 --> 49:51.160]  No, we don't benefit.
[49:51.960 --> 49:57.500]  Look at the people who are benefiting, and that might make you a little bit more, I don't know, keen to the details.
[49:57.820 --> 50:07.720]  I mean, you look back at the postal shootings and the school shootings, things that just started up suddenly in numerous and large numbers, and then just stopped suddenly.
[50:07.720 --> 50:10.160]  But recognize that these are all irrational acts.
[50:10.500 --> 50:15.980]  I mean, if they were fought through, they would recognize that the consequences are not in line with the intent that they want to push.
[50:16.060 --> 50:23.020]  There's a difference between an irrational act of, like, somebody shooting up a post office or a school and 19 people doing it at the same time.
[50:23.400 --> 50:24.300]  You know, that's...
[50:24.300 --> 50:25.640]  You can call it all kinds of things.
[50:25.760 --> 50:27.700]  I don't know if irrational really covers...
[50:27.700 --> 50:29.040]  Well, you can have an irrational conspiracy.
[50:29.320 --> 50:33.480]  If you look at Columbine, those kids killed themselves with smiles on their faces.
[50:33.680 --> 50:35.660]  I mean, they carefully planned out what they were doing.
[50:35.780 --> 50:36.840]  Right, that was two people.
[50:36.840 --> 50:39.920]  Yeah, it looks like that was mind-controlled by the CIA.
[50:40.080 --> 50:42.600]  It looks as if it was mind-controlled by the CIA, in my opinion.
[50:42.940 --> 50:44.500]  Stop saying it's mind-controlled by the CIA.
[50:44.700 --> 50:58.820]  You can have a very twisted motive and be very energized and intelligent about how you go about it, but the result you're trying to reach is something so bizarre off the wall and out of touch with reality that when you get there, you're not where you intended to be.
[50:58.960 --> 51:01.200]  I mean, that's what I think these guys are doing.
[51:01.420 --> 51:08.860]  They've decided that we're going to inflict a major blow upon the evil American Satan and they've done it and they didn't recognize it.
[51:08.980 --> 51:12.040]  Oh, gee, well, this is the blowback that we're going to get.
[51:12.200 --> 51:13.380]  Maybe we shouldn't have done it that way.
[51:13.520 --> 51:15.060]  They're not acting in an intelligent manner.
[51:15.260 --> 51:18.880]  Or, you know, as a cult, like the guys in San Diego who went out to see the comet or whatever.
[51:19.080 --> 51:23.300]  You know, you had a lot of people that decided, that made a decision.
[51:23.460 --> 51:28.060]  Highly organized, highly intelligent individuals who are just pursuing something that is just way out there.
[51:28.300 --> 51:29.640]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[51:29.940 --> 51:30.860]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[51:31.840 --> 51:33.220]  Oh, my God, I got through.
[51:33.400 --> 51:33.900]  Yes, you did.
[51:34.040 --> 51:35.700]  It's so hard to get through on your show.
[51:35.900 --> 51:36.120]  Yes.
[51:36.200 --> 51:38.340]  I try most weeks and it never happens.
[51:38.400 --> 51:39.800]  You should use this time better, though.
[51:41.820 --> 51:43.040]  Listen, I got a question.
[51:43.500 --> 51:43.880]  Go ahead.
[51:44.200 --> 51:58.380]  Would it be possible for there to be a show, your show, where five minutes goes by and with Emmanuel talking where we don't have to have Isaac disputing and arguing with everything you say?
[51:58.620 --> 51:59.900]  No, because that's the format.
[51:59.900 --> 52:01.600]  We had a show like that last week.
[52:02.360 --> 52:06.380]  When Isaac is on the cop show, he manages to keep quiet most of the time.
[52:06.460 --> 52:07.080]  Yeah, why is that?
[52:07.200 --> 52:09.600]  You're not jumping in and interrupting Mike Levine all the time.
[52:09.760 --> 52:10.860]  We have that sometimes on this show because it's really...
[52:10.860 --> 52:11.980]  Emmanuel is not armed.
[52:12.080 --> 52:12.540]  That's why.
[52:12.540 --> 52:18.000]  It's just so tiresome and aggravating to hear this constant interjections of right-wing baloney.
[52:18.280 --> 52:18.700]  Mm-hmm.
[52:19.140 --> 52:19.440]  You know?
[52:19.580 --> 52:20.380]  And some would say that...
[52:20.380 --> 52:28.840]  I would like to hear Emmanuel's discussions and points of view and explanations of things without constant right-wing disputations that are just aggravating.
[52:28.840 --> 52:33.160]  If we get two hours instead of one hour, then a second hour can be just for me or something.
[52:33.260 --> 52:33.760]  That would be kind of cool.
[52:33.820 --> 52:34.800]  That would be kind of interesting.
[52:34.940 --> 52:38.080]  But, yeah, well, thanks for the input and the feedback.
[52:38.160 --> 52:49.980]  On the flip side, there are people out there who, you know, would not... are not particularly comfortable with the low droll of, you know, the liberal agenda and who are interested in the peppered right-wing commentary.
[52:50.200 --> 52:51.920]  Well, then maybe they should turn to the AM dial.
[52:52.580 --> 52:53.120]  Good evening.
[52:53.180 --> 52:53.600]  You're on the air.
[52:54.480 --> 52:57.580]  Yes, I'd like to ask a question of all of you.
[52:57.760 --> 53:03.580]  I have heard nothing about the Vice President, Dick Cheney, over the past two weeks.
[53:03.600 --> 53:05.620]  And I wonder, where is the media on this?
[53:05.620 --> 53:13.020]  Is this some kind of a conspiracy by the media to keep the public at large unaware of what's going on?
[53:13.080 --> 53:13.560]  It's interesting.
[53:13.720 --> 53:14.760]  Maybe you guys can comment on that.
[53:14.760 --> 53:26.260]  Okay, well, they said at one point that the Vice President was being moved, as if he was some huge, like, you know, piece of metal or something that was just being transferred to another part of...
[53:26.260 --> 53:27.100]  I like that.
[53:27.200 --> 53:30.060]  Yeah, and so he was being moved to, like, a secure location.
[53:30.360 --> 53:30.580]  Yeah.
[53:31.880 --> 53:37.400]  When this all first happened, they were trying to keep the President and the Vice President in different places.
[53:37.600 --> 53:39.520]  But there's another part to this, which I heard.
[53:39.520 --> 53:53.280]  I heard that, and this comes from an article written by Alexander Coburn, that Cheney was on the verge of resigning due to health issues before the September 11th incident, and that he was going to be replaced by none other than Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge,
[53:53.420 --> 54:02.260]  who, since September 11th, has been elevated to a national position as head of this Homeland Security bunch, which really scares me to death.
[54:03.200 --> 54:06.280]  So, Ridge is now on the national scene.
[54:06.280 --> 54:10.100]  So, that's quite possible that Cheney is on the way out and will be replaced.
[54:10.260 --> 54:17.780]  I have a feeling that it's just that Mr. Cheney is very busy, either meeting with the Joint Chiefs or, you know...
[54:17.780 --> 54:18.580]  Running the country.
[54:18.940 --> 54:19.180]  Exactly.
[54:19.460 --> 54:26.860]  Well, it's sort of like, you know, those old Soviet leaders that you didn't see for a long time, and people are having, you know, rumors about their health and that kind of thing, and you see, like, a picture of them from 20 years ago where they're saying,
[54:26.900 --> 54:27.640]  hey, yeah, I'm okay.
[54:27.820 --> 54:28.460]  With a thumbs up, yeah.
[54:29.120 --> 54:30.420]  And nobody really believes it.
[54:30.460 --> 54:32.320]  Do one of those Conan O'Brien moving mouth things.
[54:32.580 --> 54:32.940]  Good evening.
[54:33.000 --> 54:33.380]  You're on the air.
[54:33.840 --> 54:34.560]  Oh, thank you.
[54:34.560 --> 54:42.980]  So, yeah, I agree with what you were saying about the Palestinians and this shot they were using there.
[54:43.120 --> 54:46.580]  That was an old film script they've been using.
[54:46.920 --> 54:48.300]  Actually, no, it wasn't old.
[54:48.580 --> 54:49.440]  It wasn't old.
[54:49.480 --> 54:49.600]  No.
[54:49.600 --> 54:51.480]  But it took place before the bombing.
[54:51.580 --> 54:54.820]  There's no way to prove that, either, and I doubt that myself.
[54:55.320 --> 54:56.800]  Well, this is what I heard.
[54:56.980 --> 55:01.540]  But, okay, I don't know if any of you guys ever heard of the American Free Press?
[55:02.780 --> 55:04.240]  I've heard of it as a concept.
[55:05.540 --> 55:10.320]  Well, this is a newspaper that used to be called The Spotlight.
[55:11.000 --> 55:12.140]  I've probably heard of The Spotlight.
[55:12.760 --> 55:16.500]  Okay, there's an article in this week's edition.
[55:16.860 --> 55:19.860]  And if you don't mind, it takes 10 seconds.
[55:19.860 --> 55:20.420]  I'll read it.
[55:20.540 --> 55:21.540]  If it takes 10 seconds.
[55:21.540 --> 55:34.800]  Okay, it says, Dan was wrong in a recent widely heralded visit with David Letterman on the popular CBS program, the late show CBS, Anchorman.
[55:35.040 --> 55:46.400]  Dan Rather stated that a cell of American-hating Arabs had been spotted across the Hudson River videotaping a World Trade Center tragedy and celebrating on the roof of a building.
[55:46.400 --> 55:48.180]  Yeah, that's another urban legend.
[55:48.460 --> 55:48.840]  Okay.
[55:48.940 --> 56:01.380]  It says, by that point, it was already known by the American Free Press that the purported Arab celebrants were, in fact, a group of Israelis.
[56:02.020 --> 56:02.360]  Okay.
[56:02.800 --> 56:08.460]  Well, you know, who it is or who was there, who wasn't there, I don't know how relevant it is, but...
[56:08.460 --> 56:13.120]  The lessons for today, don't automatically believe everything you read in any form of media.
[56:13.300 --> 56:13.560]  Correct.
[56:13.560 --> 56:13.580]  Correct.
[56:14.000 --> 56:14.320]  All right.
[56:14.480 --> 56:14.760]  Good evening.
[56:14.860 --> 56:15.200]  You're on the air.
[56:16.600 --> 56:17.160]  Let's pick up.
[56:17.280 --> 56:17.680]  Yes, go ahead.
[56:18.760 --> 56:19.200]  WBAI?
[56:19.280 --> 56:19.720]  That's right.
[56:20.960 --> 56:22.140]  I'm glad I caught you.
[56:22.320 --> 56:30.280]  I'm a retired firefighter, and I was listening to the other program with Mike Levine, and it's like a joke.
[56:30.740 --> 56:34.880]  What he's saying is like a war for turf.
[56:35.500 --> 56:35.700]  Okay.
[56:35.780 --> 56:41.780]  Well, actually, if you could just confine your remarks to this particular program, as opposed to the program that was on before, can you do that?
[56:42.240 --> 56:42.620]  Yeah.
[56:45.560 --> 56:48.300]  What would you like me to speak about?
[56:49.040 --> 56:50.960]  Anything that we've been talking about in the last hour.
[56:51.100 --> 56:55.740]  If you have feedback from Mike Levine, you can call his show or you can write to him at the station.
[56:56.380 --> 56:58.260]  Expert53 at AOL.com.
[56:58.560 --> 56:59.140]  All right.
[56:59.420 --> 57:05.340]  Thanks for calling, and hopefully we'll get people who are listening to our show, giving us feedback.
[57:05.440 --> 57:05.660]  Good evening.
[57:05.740 --> 57:06.160]  You're on the air.
[57:07.020 --> 57:07.460]  Hello?
[57:07.700 --> 57:08.120]  Yes, go ahead.
[57:08.800 --> 57:25.780]  One thing that I'm curious about is in all of this, with the Arab community coming out and speaking out against terrorism, nobody's heard from Louis Farrakhan, and I just wonder if I've missed something in the media or he just has been laying low.
[57:25.960 --> 57:27.120]  He's as missing as Dick Cheney.
[57:27.740 --> 57:29.660]  Yeah, that's another question.
[57:29.860 --> 57:30.260]  I don't know.
[57:30.540 --> 57:32.400]  You know, where are these people?
[57:32.700 --> 57:35.160]  Do they have anything valid or relevant to say?
[57:35.740 --> 57:36.560]  Probably not.
[57:36.560 --> 57:37.160]  I don't know.
[57:38.180 --> 57:39.800]  One brief piece of good news.
[57:40.540 --> 57:45.980]  Dmitry Sklerov, the arrested Russian programmer, has a new lawyer who's supposed to be really good, and he's working pro bono.
[57:46.940 --> 57:47.460]  Good evening.
[57:47.500 --> 57:47.840]  You're on the air.
[57:47.960 --> 57:48.040]  Hi.
[57:48.180 --> 57:48.300]  Yes.
[57:48.380 --> 57:49.460]  Two brief items of interest.
[57:49.580 --> 57:49.900]  Very quick.
[57:49.980 --> 57:56.940]  First of all, at the top of the hour, there's a benefit on Channel 11, and they led off the band's song Revolution, with John Lennon singing it.
[57:57.400 --> 57:58.380]  So, so much for the band.
[57:58.420 --> 57:59.900]  That's taking place at Madison Square Garden.
[58:00.440 --> 58:03.860]  Oh, I don't know where it is, but I was listening to your show, of course, with the sound off.
[58:04.100 --> 58:04.780]  Oh, thank you.
[58:04.780 --> 58:07.160]  And I just went, came back from the City Corp.
[58:07.160 --> 58:08.760]  I went on the 53rd Street side.
[58:08.760 --> 58:09.900]  I'm pretty close to the area.
[58:10.580 --> 58:14.920]  And I thought to go down, and I was challenged, and I said, well, they asked me, where are you going?
[58:15.000 --> 58:16.740]  And I said, well, I'm going to the public space there.
[58:16.940 --> 58:18.500]  They said, well, but where are you going?
[58:18.700 --> 58:19.700]  To the public space.
[58:19.760 --> 58:20.600]  Is there anybody there?
[58:21.200 --> 58:23.840]  They said, yeah, there's a whole bunch of senior citizens there now.
[58:24.040 --> 58:28.240]  And I explained, well, on Friday, then I guess then the other public can be admitted.
[58:28.620 --> 58:31.140]  They say, well, we'll have to see what the director thinks.
[58:31.540 --> 58:31.900]  Okay.
[58:31.900 --> 58:41.860]  So knowing what you went through to get it secured the first time, you know, because they were breaking the law, it's a tax-exempt public space, it wouldn't hurt to bring a lawyer with you, but right now it's open.
[58:42.080 --> 58:43.500]  Well, actually, we've never had a problem with City Corp.
[58:43.640 --> 58:44.940]  They've always been really good to us.
[58:45.040 --> 58:45.520]  They've been very nice.
[58:45.640 --> 58:48.840]  And hopefully, you know, we can work things out on Friday.
[58:48.920 --> 58:55.680]  I don't think, you know, if people come there understand that there's going to be a little bit more paranoia than usual, and that's just natural for events.
[58:56.380 --> 58:56.600]  Take it easy, basically.
[58:56.600 --> 58:58.720]  So we're all going to go through this together.
[58:59.620 --> 59:00.100]  All right.
[59:00.200 --> 59:01.120]  We're out of time, unfortunately.
[59:01.260 --> 59:04.540]  I wish we could have taken a lot more phone calls, but we'll do so next week.
[59:04.880 --> 59:08.940]  In the meantime, everybody, please stay strong and hang in there.
[59:09.780 --> 59:14.320]  Fight unjust laws and all kinds of other things as they happen.
[59:14.960 --> 59:16.480]  We'll get through this together.
[59:18.140 --> 59:20.220]  Until next week, it's Manuel Goldstein.
[59:20.640 --> 59:20.880]  Good night.
[59:21.460 --> 59:22.800]  The truth is, I thought it mattered.
[59:23.460 --> 59:25.640]  I thought that music mattered.
[59:26.780 --> 59:30.760]  But does it bollocks not compared to how people matter?
[59:31.780 --> 59:42.500]  We'll be singing When we're winning We'll be singing I get knocked down But I get up again
[01:00:05.170 --> 01:00:28.110]  It's in the night He drinks a whiskey drink He drinks a vodka drink He drinks a lager drink He drinks a cider drink He sings the songs that remind him of the good times He sings the songs that remind him of the good times Oh, Donnie boy Donnie boy Donnie boy I get knocked down
[01:00:47.020 --> 01:01:18.920]  World peace through inner peace What you can do Participate in a transformative workshop To benefit the families of the September 11th tragedy This Tuesday, October 2nd From 6.30 till 9pm An evening of healing, understanding, and consciousness With international seminar leaders Kabir Jaffe and Ritama Davidson Cultivate the inner strength and vision To turn this tragedy into a triumph of our spirit
[01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:51.320]  Tuesday, October 2nd 6.30 till 9pm At Good Shepherd Faith Church 152 West 66th Street Your donation will support the families in this time of need Call 718-230-0315 That's 718-230-0315 For details This announcement has been a public service by WBAI On behalf of the families of September 11th
[01:01:55.750 --> 01:02:02.990]  And Off The Hook was brought to you live with portions of a recording of a listener sponsored non-commercial WBAI in New York in about one minute time.
[01:02:03.730 --> 01:02:06.330]  Tahir, at 10 p.m.
[01:02:09.390 --> 01:02:11.370]  Okay, the machine doesn't want to cooperate.
[01:02:11.610 --> 01:02:13.070]  10 p.m., enough said.
[01:02:13.470 --> 01:02:15.830]  It is now time for Tahir.
[01:02:17.370 --> 01:02:20.190]  World peace through inner peace.
[01:02:20.430 --> 01:02:22.650]  What you can do...