[00:02.030 --> 00:08.930]  ...to shoulder, and we are very grateful that this is a multilateral, not simply a unilateral mission.
[00:09.390 --> 00:10.670]  Our U.S.
[00:10.790 --> 00:12.770]  presence, of course, is the dominant one.
[00:13.610 --> 00:20.470]  Weaponry, America's only international defense affairs, military hardware, and history talk show is heard every Tuesday night at 1.30 a.m.
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[00:58.150 --> 01:22.390]  Moorish, Moorish, Orthodox, Radio, Crusade, Anarchism for the Global City, Radical Environmentalism for the Concrete Jungle, Esoteric Explorations of the Secret History of Rebel Culture, The Moorish, Orthodox, Radio, Crusade, every Tuesday at midnight,
[01:22.650 --> 01:30.450]  after the news, only on listener-supported, non-commercial, WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
[01:32.050 --> 01:32.970]  Be there.
[01:35.550 --> 01:39.690]  And it's coming up in only four hours, so don't plan on going anywhere if you want to hear that.
[01:39.890 --> 01:43.970]  And you really should stay put if you want to hear Off the Hook, because that's up next.
[01:50.980 --> 01:55.500]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:56.460 --> 02:01.040]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[02:01.680 --> 02:06.440]  We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[02:06.700 --> 02:09.380]  Bon, diddly bon, for the best, expect the worst.
[02:09.980 --> 02:11.900]  I hope that's understood.
[02:12.240 --> 02:12.920]  Bon, diddly bon!
[02:12.920 --> 02:14.260]  And
[02:19.840 --> 02:22.920]  this is the second one.
[03:20.950 --> 03:21.930]  And a good evening to everybody.
[03:21.950 --> 03:23.010]  The program is off the hook.
[03:23.350 --> 03:28.510]  Emmanuel Goldstein with you for the next hour or so, talking about technology-related things as they relate to the rest of the world.
[03:29.390 --> 03:31.150]  Joined by Mike, joined by Isaac.
[03:31.830 --> 03:32.090]  Hi.
[03:32.270 --> 03:32.910]  Is that my phone?
[03:33.090 --> 03:33.910]  I think it is.
[03:34.010 --> 03:34.310]  It's my phone.
[03:34.370 --> 03:35.030]  Hold on, let me...
[03:35.030 --> 03:36.850]  We just did the little cross-check here.
[03:36.850 --> 03:37.630]  See who's calling here.
[03:37.970 --> 03:38.310]  Yeah.
[03:39.390 --> 03:40.710]  All right, I'm going to turn this off now.
[03:40.970 --> 03:41.550]  There we go.
[03:42.250 --> 03:42.990]  Let me get to the other one.
[03:42.990 --> 03:43.890]  Let me get to the other one before that one starts ringing.
[03:45.850 --> 03:47.350]  People think it's funny to do this.
[03:47.490 --> 03:48.790]  Do you have a pager or anything else?
[03:48.850 --> 03:52.470]  No, I don't have a pager, but I suggest everybody else in the room turn theirs off as well.
[03:52.610 --> 03:54.650]  Oh, I did that when I walked in.
[03:54.770 --> 03:57.690]  That goes for the listeners as well, because we don't want any interruptions at all.
[03:57.790 --> 03:58.230]  That's right.
[03:58.270 --> 04:01.730]  For the entire duration of the hour, we'd like people to pay attention.
[04:02.910 --> 04:06.610]  Pay almost as close attention as you would if the Commander-in-Chief was speaking.
[04:07.910 --> 04:08.470]  Closer, Ethan.
[04:08.770 --> 04:10.890]  Yeah, well, in our case, you're not listening for the flubs.
[04:11.230 --> 04:11.990]  At least, I hope not.
[04:12.490 --> 04:15.830]  But anyway, boy, what an interesting week this is turning out to be.
[04:15.930 --> 04:18.570]  Or interesting last week.
[04:18.690 --> 04:20.370]  Since period, since last show.
[04:20.810 --> 04:22.830]  Yeah, I mean, it just never stops.
[04:23.010 --> 04:25.090]  The thrills just keep on coming.
[04:25.090 --> 04:27.810]  You know, it's unbelievable.
[04:28.310 --> 04:29.030]  Another war.
[04:29.250 --> 04:30.890]  Another bombing raid.
[04:31.050 --> 04:34.350]  Another adventure in some far and distant land someplace.
[04:34.750 --> 04:39.270]  And who knows what this is setting the stage for in future years.
[04:41.830 --> 04:44.690]  But it's interesting to watch.
[04:44.810 --> 04:46.910]  Any observations in the mass media?
[04:47.130 --> 04:52.250]  Mass media, what they leave out, what they include, what they are saying?
[04:52.250 --> 04:54.790]  I haven't had much time to keep up with them.
[04:54.870 --> 05:01.410]  But I imagine what the result of this whole war is going to be so far as the future stage is a much safer world against terrorism.
[05:02.890 --> 05:04.250]  You said that with a straight face.
[05:04.350 --> 05:05.090]  I admire that.
[05:05.210 --> 05:05.830]  I really do.
[05:06.250 --> 05:07.110]  How do you do that?
[05:07.530 --> 05:11.390]  You must have some Native American in you where you can keep that face, you know, without breaking into...
[05:11.390 --> 05:13.010]  Yeah, that's really good.
[05:13.250 --> 05:13.590]  That's really good.
[05:13.650 --> 05:14.430]  You believe this?
[05:14.430 --> 05:17.970]  Actually believing it does help make statements like that with a straight face.
[05:18.050 --> 05:21.670]  Well, then in that case, I'd change my mind and I think we should offer you up for biological experiments.
[05:21.890 --> 05:26.150]  Because somebody who actually believes something like that is a study, to be sure.
[05:26.490 --> 05:27.470]  Well, this is the objective.
[05:27.670 --> 05:29.550]  I mean, it's what's been stated to be the objective.
[05:29.870 --> 05:31.290]  Well, that's the objective, of course.
[05:31.290 --> 05:36.210]  The objective in all other places that we've bombed in the past has been to stabilize things.
[05:36.210 --> 05:37.570]  But, you know, it doesn't really work that way.
[05:37.630 --> 05:39.750]  You may think that everybody forgets about it.
[05:39.850 --> 05:49.690]  But years from now, somebody who grows up with, you know, living in squalor that we help spread, well, they kind of explode in some unpredictable way.
[05:49.790 --> 05:51.410]  And you have tragedy as a result.
[05:52.050 --> 05:53.630]  Nice choice of verb right there.
[05:54.130 --> 05:54.550]  What?
[05:54.710 --> 05:56.670]  They explode in some unpredictable way.
[05:56.770 --> 05:58.030]  Well, it was an intentional choice.
[05:58.250 --> 06:03.170]  I mean, unfortunately, that's what people do in one form or another and sometimes both.
[06:04.950 --> 06:06.010]  But, I don't know.
[06:06.210 --> 06:06.910]  It's worrisome.
[06:06.910 --> 06:10.230]  Now, walking down Wall Street to get here, it's like walking through an armed fortress now.
[06:10.330 --> 06:10.910]  Have you seen it?
[06:10.930 --> 06:15.970]  They're putting up barricades, road barricades, so that, you know, cars can't even drive down the road anymore.
[06:16.210 --> 06:17.270]  It's not going to be a road.
[06:17.270 --> 06:18.170]  You won't be able to drive.
[06:18.350 --> 06:19.290]  You won't be able to do anything.
[06:19.630 --> 06:22.030]  Wall Street has never really been considered a road, actually.
[06:22.130 --> 06:25.490]  Well, the first part, up until you get to Nassau Street from Broadway, yeah.
[06:25.670 --> 06:28.190]  But beyond that now, they're expanding.
[06:28.410 --> 06:35.290]  And you have these mean-looking cops and going into the Midtown Tunnel before, greeted by soldiers, you know, military fatigues.
[06:35.290 --> 06:37.010]  And I don't understand the point.
[06:37.210 --> 06:38.210]  I really don't understand the point.
[06:38.270 --> 06:45.350]  I think this is something that we sort of have an obligation to point out because we're observant with not only technology but other things as well.
[06:45.530 --> 06:47.550]  Well, which answer do you want to that question?
[06:47.710 --> 06:48.130]  Well, I don't...
[06:48.130 --> 06:49.130]  Do you want the real answer?
[06:49.130 --> 06:51.450]  Do you want the answer that is being said?
[06:51.990 --> 06:53.350]  Well, I'd like to look at both.
[06:53.570 --> 06:56.030]  And I'd like to have our listeners maybe figure out...
[06:56.030 --> 06:56.810]  Which one do you want first?
[06:56.990 --> 06:57.630]  Well, I don't know.
[06:57.830 --> 06:58.050]  I don't know.
[06:58.190 --> 06:59.150]  Which one do you want to say first?
[06:59.330 --> 07:02.270]  How about what is the outward intent?
[07:02.450 --> 07:04.750]  The outward intent is to make a more secure environment.
[07:05.350 --> 07:08.330]  But how do you make a more secure environment by militarizing everything?
[07:08.430 --> 07:10.470]  Well, that is, again, the published intention.
[07:10.650 --> 07:14.390]  The real intention is to make people feel as though they're in a more secure environment.
[07:14.390 --> 07:16.450]  And you think this is working?
[07:16.590 --> 07:18.530]  You think that having all these...
[07:18.530 --> 07:20.230]  It makes them feel better.
[07:20.370 --> 07:24.110]  I don't feel better having soldiers patrolling and searching and things like that.
[07:24.170 --> 07:30.250]  For one thing, okay, what is the point of having soldiers at the Midtown Tunnel, looking like they're doing something?
[07:30.250 --> 07:34.110]  Again, there is no point except to make them look like they're doing something and make people feel better.
[07:34.110 --> 07:35.910]  I could have had a small nuclear bomb in my trunk.
[07:35.910 --> 07:36.510]  Nobody cared.
[07:36.590 --> 07:37.070]  Nobody looked.
[07:37.390 --> 07:38.550]  So what are they doing?
[07:38.590 --> 07:39.690]  I don't understand this.
[07:39.690 --> 07:53.970]  The actual security gains are very minimal as compared to the costs that are being incurred to do it, which means it's an entirely unrational sort of operation to undergo, but it makes people feel better.
[07:54.110 --> 07:59.490]  We're being told to live our lives as normal, to not let this affect us, to not let this disrupt us.
[07:59.650 --> 08:02.810]  But the people who are telling us this are doing the exact opposite.
[08:03.010 --> 08:06.130]  They're imposing these draconian laws.
[08:06.750 --> 08:15.390]  They're basically forbidding freedom of speech and assembly and all kinds of things like that, and they're putting up barricades every place, and...
[08:15.390 --> 08:25.370]  Well, how is free speech being restrained, or right of assembly being restrained in any manner above and beyond how it previously was?
[08:25.490 --> 08:28.270]  Well, I mean, look at the things we've been talking about over the last couple of weeks.
[08:28.330 --> 08:34.370]  We're on the air, and the rest of this station is still on the air, so if anything, that's evidence that free speech is alive and well.
[08:34.370 --> 08:35.550]  How far do you think we are?
[08:35.710 --> 08:38.150]  How far do you think we are from this place not being here?
[08:38.610 --> 08:39.370]  How far do I...
[08:39.370 --> 08:50.330]  Only a couple of steps away from the things that we say over the air being ruled as anti-state or raising too many unfortunate questions or whatnot.
[08:50.590 --> 08:57.590]  And I've seen this in the reaction of people in general, saying that internment camps should be set up for Arab Americans.
[08:57.710 --> 08:58.730]  I mean, people believe this.
[08:58.850 --> 09:00.030]  People are saying this.
[09:00.150 --> 09:02.310]  Well, they're being put on the air because they're saying that.
[09:02.310 --> 09:09.690]  Yeah, well, 33% of Americans polled believe that, at least in the couple of weeks following the attacks.
[09:11.070 --> 09:12.190]  You have a 90%...
[09:12.190 --> 09:19.050]  And 72.5% of polling data is completely irrelevant and made up.
[09:19.050 --> 09:19.350]  Oh, you just made that up.
[09:19.450 --> 09:20.170]  You just made that up.
[09:20.170 --> 09:21.410]  I can't remember the actual...
[09:21.410 --> 09:24.610]  Yeah, 72% of people think that polling data is inaccurate.
[09:24.610 --> 09:27.850]  When you have 90% approval rating of any president, I worry.
[09:28.270 --> 09:28.590]  Why?
[09:28.710 --> 09:31.370]  Because that sort of gives him a blank check to do whatever he wants.
[09:31.650 --> 09:32.630]  And, uh...
[09:32.630 --> 09:33.910]  He doesn't have a blank check?
[09:34.430 --> 09:36.030]  He's the president of the United States.
[09:36.030 --> 09:37.090]  It's supposed to be checks and balances.
[09:37.570 --> 09:37.630]  There are.
[09:37.790 --> 09:38.150]  And, uh...
[09:38.150 --> 09:39.250]  You have the Congress and the court.
[09:39.410 --> 09:41.670]  Yeah, and basically everybody is kind of blinded.
[09:41.670 --> 09:42.310]  Popular opinion.
[09:42.690 --> 09:46.190]  No, the Anti-Terrorism Act is on the verge of being passed.
[09:46.190 --> 09:47.690]  It's called something else now.
[09:47.770 --> 09:48.450]  Well, what's it called now?
[09:48.990 --> 09:52.330]  The House version is called the Patriot Act, which stands for something.
[09:52.690 --> 09:56.190]  And the Senate version is called the USA Act, which stands for something else.
[09:56.590 --> 10:00.150]  United and Strengthened America, I think is what it stands for.
[10:00.190 --> 10:01.490]  I heard that on the news this evening.
[10:01.670 --> 10:02.630]  The BAI news.
[10:02.690 --> 10:04.090]  I don't think you would hear that on the regular news.
[10:04.310 --> 10:06.430]  I imagine it had been on the regular news earlier.
[10:06.730 --> 10:09.610]  Uh, yeah, but maybe not in quite the way that we covered it here.
[10:10.650 --> 10:11.050]  Detraction.
[10:11.090 --> 10:12.650]  What are some of the highlights of this bill like?
[10:12.790 --> 10:13.510]  Yeah, I can understand.
[10:13.630 --> 10:15.470]  There's expanded wiretap powers.
[10:16.110 --> 10:19.430]  The House and the Senate versions actually differ considerably now.
[10:19.630 --> 10:22.850]  The House version, I'm told, is not quite as bad.
[10:23.570 --> 10:28.330]  The details of this are on ACLU.org and other civil liberties groups.
[10:28.330 --> 10:29.950]  The wiretap thing doesn't bother me as much.
[10:30.210 --> 10:30.790]  You know?
[10:31.210 --> 10:38.130]  What bothers me are the real restrictions on, you know, on speech, on saying that...
[10:38.130 --> 10:40.310]  Well, of course, the thing about hackers, certainly.
[10:40.750 --> 10:41.770]  Is that still in there?
[10:41.850 --> 10:42.530]  Has that been taken out?
[10:42.590 --> 10:45.130]  I believe it's been removed from at least the House version.
[10:45.470 --> 10:45.570]  Uh-huh.
[10:46.430 --> 10:51.510]  I actually downloaded the latest draft of the bill, but it's this really long document that...
[10:51.510 --> 10:54.370]  Nobody wants to read, so it just gets passed and...
[10:54.370 --> 10:58.350]  The way they write laws is they say, we're going to add five words to this section of code.
[10:58.490 --> 11:02.830]  So if you want to know what that actually does, you have to then go spend another half hour looking up that section of code.
[11:02.830 --> 11:04.890]  So basically no one could possibly have any clue.
[11:05.230 --> 11:05.490]  Uh-huh.
[11:07.070 --> 11:10.130]  Well, you know, we saw something like this coming in the past.
[11:10.250 --> 11:20.110]  Not just specifically, but I remember saying a number of years ago that if they could figure out how to scan brainwaves, they would say they needed that to track down terrorists.
[11:20.110 --> 11:23.550]  And it looks like there are some crazy people out there that are actually pushing this.
[11:23.850 --> 11:25.130]  This comes from the register.
[11:25.250 --> 11:38.270]  Just when you thought crowd surveillance with facial recognition gear was the sickest idea circulating, some naive do-gooder comes along with brain fingerprinting to detect evil memories, loudly urging its use as a public security measure in the wake of the September 11th tragedies.
[11:38.530 --> 11:56.970]  Steve Kirsch, founder of Infoseek and current CEO of data management outfit Propel Software, reckons that the relevant technology companies could deliver a working system of brain fingerprinting databases and a companion iris scanning system for supposedly anonymous identification reference in something like 90 days' time.
[11:57.090 --> 12:00.650]  And this will infallibly defeat terrorists, he fervently believes.
[12:01.230 --> 12:01.550]  Pause.
[12:01.810 --> 12:02.530]  Kirsch's mental...
[12:02.530 --> 12:02.870]  Yes?
[12:04.350 --> 12:08.030]  It's actually... is it trying to make a fingerprint of brainwaves?
[12:08.110 --> 12:10.190]  Or is it supposed to be trying to read your mind?
[12:11.430 --> 12:14.910]  Well, if they could read your mind, you know they would say they have to read your mind...
[12:14.910 --> 12:20.170]  This is a biometric method of measuring brainwaves to say that you're not Tommy, you're Johnny.
[12:20.590 --> 12:22.690]  Well, pretty much, I guess.
[12:22.830 --> 12:22.950]  Okay.
[12:23.010 --> 12:25.330]  It's kind of like a really enhanced lie-detecting thing.
[12:25.490 --> 12:26.650]  And it goes beyond that.
[12:26.650 --> 12:28.130]  Those are different things.
[12:28.570 --> 12:28.670]  Yeah.
[12:28.990 --> 12:36.350]  Kirsch's mental intrusion scheme is based on multifaceted electroencephalographic response analysis, known as MERA.
[12:36.350 --> 12:50.530]  It's an electronic form of phrenology promoted by brainwave science company president Larry Farwell, this is like science fiction I'm reading here, whose Gibson-esque self-promoting website appears to be little more than a gallery of all the dupes he's taken in.
[12:50.690 --> 12:51.650]  I like the register.
[12:51.730 --> 12:52.250]  Did I ever say that?
[12:52.390 --> 12:52.650]  Yes, I...
[12:52.650 --> 12:54.630]  You know the meaning of the word phrenology, right?
[12:54.910 --> 12:55.750]  Why'd you tell us?
[12:55.890 --> 13:01.670]  It's a method of fortune-telling that used to be practiced by looking at the patterns in the bumps in people's skulls.
[13:01.670 --> 13:03.190]  Oh, that's very scientific.
[13:04.450 --> 13:06.910]  These include... the dupes he's taken in include U.S.
[13:07.170 --> 13:10.850]  Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa, 60 Minutes correspondent Mike Wallace.
[13:10.970 --> 13:11.290]  Hi, Mike.
[13:11.630 --> 13:17.670]  And a slew of newspapers, magazines, and TV and radio producers along with Steve Kirsch.
[13:18.770 --> 13:24.510]  The technique has a record of 100% accuracy in research on FBI agents, research with U.S.
[13:24.610 --> 13:27.370]  government agencies and field applications, Farwell gushes...
[13:27.370 --> 13:28.850]  100% accuracy of what?
[13:28.850 --> 13:30.370]  Uh, he neglects to mention...
[13:30.370 --> 13:30.990]  Oh, that's what they say.
[13:31.070 --> 13:38.590]  He neglects to mention that the FBI trial involved a scant 21 test subjects, however, hardly the makings of anything approaching statistical significance.
[13:38.870 --> 13:42.830]  Well, that didn't, you know, prevent them from, uh, managing to adopt the polygraph.
[13:43.010 --> 13:55.430]  But, regardless, there's a very big difference between trying to use this as a biometric identification method, which has at least some grounding in reality, as opposed to measuring brainwaves and evil thoughts.
[13:55.430 --> 14:00.190]  I mean, that, that seems to me to be kind of ridiculous, at least with present technology.
[14:02.510 --> 14:05.090]  This is from, uh, something that Steve Kirsch himself wrote.
[14:05.210 --> 14:16.050]  Brain fingerprinting is dependent on the P300 complex, a very well-studied series of brainwave components that have been known for over 20 years and have been repeatedly verified in countless professional peer-reviewed journals.
[14:16.050 --> 14:20.930]  It works by determining whether or not a stimulus, such as a picture, has been previously seen by a subject.
[14:21.310 --> 14:28.430]  Therefore, it can be used to determine whether someone is familiar with the inside of a specific terrorist training camp, or the contents of a particular terrorist code book.
[14:28.510 --> 14:29.310]  Yeah, this is very...
[14:29.310 --> 14:34.170]  But you cannot simply ask any yes-no question and determine whether someone is lying, such as, did you cheat on your taxes?
[14:34.410 --> 14:45.130]  Therefore, with a properly selected set of words and images, we can quickly determine, for example, whether a person has knowledge of al-Qaeda that could only be known by a member or a small handful of FBI specialists.
[14:45.330 --> 14:49.890]  This, this is a, uh, an actual technique that came out of, uh, polygraphy.
[14:50.230 --> 15:03.870]  Uh, basically, imagine a room with a person hooked up, uh, with a standard polygraph, you know, the, the heart rate monitor, the breathing monitor, respiration, uh, rather perspiration, so on and so forth, uh, sometimes with an ECG as well.
[15:03.870 --> 15:07.110]  They have on the display a number of words that pop up.
[15:07.570 --> 15:12.390]  House, tree, watch, gold, diamond.
[15:12.750 --> 15:26.490]  And if the person was accused of diamond robbery and says that he wasn't, when he sees the, the word diamond come up, there's an, an autonomic response of fear or otherwise a muscle contraction or something, and they try to use that to say, yeah, the person was involved in this diamond excursion ring.
[15:27.530 --> 15:28.250]  Which is...
[15:28.250 --> 15:33.310]  See, once we move into this kind of a world where we do this kind of thing on a regular basis, there's no turning back.
[15:33.530 --> 15:33.570]  Yeah.
[15:33.570 --> 15:34.990]  We don't stop doing it one day.
[15:35.410 --> 15:38.450]  So, we have to ask ourselves very, very serious questions here.
[15:38.550 --> 15:40.230]  Is this the kind of society we want to live in?
[15:40.650 --> 15:42.190]  And yeah, I know there are risks.
[15:42.290 --> 15:43.250]  There are always risks.
[15:43.530 --> 15:48.310]  But, uh, sometimes the, the cure is worse than the disease.
[15:48.370 --> 15:50.710]  And I think we're, we're definitely treading on that ground.
[15:50.930 --> 15:55.310]  If you want more information on this though, go to www.brainwavescience.com.
[15:55.910 --> 15:57.210]  Science used loosely.
[15:57.650 --> 15:58.090]  It's real.
[15:58.870 --> 16:01.310]  Uh, what else?
[16:03.870 --> 16:10.810]  We have quite a few interesting things, uh, phone related, which, uh, actually I'll get to that as we get closer to the actual taking of phone calls.
[16:10.990 --> 16:17.290]  We still have our, our substitute phone number, which, uh, no longer works.
[16:25.300 --> 16:25.780]  Anyway.
[16:29.520 --> 16:31.060]  Sorry, I got all distracted here.
[16:31.060 --> 16:31.320]  Yeah.
[16:31.820 --> 16:32.740]  It was a lot of papers.
[16:32.900 --> 16:35.780]  Fingerprint, uh, scanning systems at consular posts and U.S.
[16:35.920 --> 16:41.340]  border stations may become a new line of defense in the war on terrorism under language included in a House bill.
[16:41.520 --> 16:43.340]  An anti-terrorism bill, H.R.
[16:43.600 --> 17:01.860]  2975, passed the House Judiciary Committee Wednesday night with a manager's amendment that would require the Department of Justice, in conjunction with others, to study the feasibility of using so-called biometric scanning systems to take fingerprints of people wishing to enter the United States and match them with an FBI database of criminals.
[17:03.200 --> 17:05.520]  Or other people that tried to enter the United States.
[17:05.740 --> 17:06.980]  The system could help U.S.
[17:07.360 --> 17:12.840]  officials perform the gargantuan task of identifying aliens wanted in connection with criminal or terrorist investigations.
[17:13.560 --> 17:17.320]  Uh, it's unclear to what degree the scanning system would cause processing delays.
[17:17.860 --> 17:23.260]  Um, Steve Fisher, an FBI spokesman, said a typical search for a fingerprint match takes about two hours.
[17:23.260 --> 17:25.420]  Now, what if the alien doesn't have fingers?
[17:25.420 --> 17:26.680]  They have tentacles or something?
[17:27.700 --> 17:38.500]  The FBI's database, known as the Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System, or IAFIS, came online in 1999 and currently contains some 42 million criminal records.
[17:39.020 --> 17:46.400]  During the last fiscal year, we had roughly 14.8 million fingerprint search requests, of which roughly 52% were criminal and 48% civil.
[17:46.860 --> 17:49.080]  That's about 42,000 submissions per day.
[17:50.200 --> 17:52.520]  Uh, they aren't foolproof, though.
[17:52.600 --> 17:56.500]  When you acquire fingerprints at different times, for example, they could be slightly different due to cuts or bruises.
[17:56.880 --> 18:01.440]  Also, the current systems that are available commercially are not as accurate as they are promoted as being.
[18:02.280 --> 18:06.220]  That means, inevitably, some people will be wrongly identified and falsely rejected.
[18:06.620 --> 18:10.720]  Well, it is a feasibility study for trying to use IAFIS.
[18:10.720 --> 18:21.220]  I mean, it would be very similar to NCIC, where you get pulled over by a cop, the guy logs into his little terminal in the patrol car, sees if you're wanted for X, Y, and Z, and then lets you go.
[18:22.060 --> 18:24.460]  I mean, that's the best corollary I can imagine.
[18:24.580 --> 18:26.940]  But it's still just a feasibility study.
[18:27.080 --> 18:28.980]  They haven't decided that this is what they're going to do.
[18:28.980 --> 18:32.100]  If it winds up being 20 bazillion dollars, they might turn it away.
[18:32.180 --> 18:34.660]  Again, once we start these things, we're not going to stop them.
[18:35.040 --> 18:41.360]  So we should be studying them very carefully, not quickly running into things without considering them very seriously.
[18:41.640 --> 18:42.960]  It sounds like they're responsibly doing that.
[18:44.100 --> 18:45.160]  What do you think of zero knowledge?
[18:45.260 --> 18:45.660]  You heard about that?
[18:47.380 --> 18:49.780]  Is this a question you're asking me now or a year ago?
[18:49.900 --> 18:51.280]  Because the answer will be the same.
[18:52.600 --> 18:56.920]  Well, the announcement was dated October 4th, so I don't know, if you knew this a year ago...
[18:56.920 --> 19:00.460]  No, if you asked me about zero knowledge a year or two ago, I'd have said the same thing.
[19:00.820 --> 19:03.600]  Basically, it had no chance.
[19:03.600 --> 19:06.080]  It was not the greatest technology in the world.
[19:06.500 --> 19:07.580]  Why don't you tell us what it is first?
[19:07.900 --> 19:13.600]  Zero knowledge was actually a company that was put around this system.
[19:14.420 --> 19:18.880]  The idea being that you can have completely anonymous connections on the internet.
[19:19.080 --> 19:25.220]  And the idea was that you downloaded this little piece of client software, which didn't exist for many operating systems.
[19:25.360 --> 19:30.360]  I mean, there wasn't a Mac client, there wasn't a Linux client, there wasn't a lot of these major clients for a while until recently.
[19:30.360 --> 19:37.180]  You downloaded this thing, and it would basically bounce your request for a web page into the zero knowledge systems network.
[19:37.420 --> 19:41.380]  And it went over these encrypted tunnels and pipes all over the place to all of their little servers.
[19:41.520 --> 19:46.760]  It would download the web page, bring it back in, and then drop it off to your individual host.
[19:47.100 --> 19:52.860]  The idea being that no one could track that you were actually making this look up or receiving these files.
[19:53.140 --> 19:55.380]  Well, it costs a lot of money to maintain that.
[19:55.380 --> 19:57.100]  The clients didn't exist.
[19:57.580 --> 20:02.160]  It costs... you know, people had to register pseudonymously in order to even use it.
[20:02.300 --> 20:05.720]  If you were outside the United States, you had to give a credit card number to pay.
[20:06.440 --> 20:10.600]  It... I mean, they... it's a wonderful idea, but the way they try to go about it...
[20:10.600 --> 20:14.400]  And you think the timing of the announcement that this service is being discontinued is a total coincidence?
[20:14.860 --> 20:20.120]  Uh, I think they had a little prompting and prodding, but basically it's an entirely untenable company.
[20:21.880 --> 20:22.720]  What do you think, Mike?
[20:22.720 --> 20:23.400]  In my estimation.
[20:23.960 --> 20:26.160]  Uh, I think they were losing money is what I've heard.
[20:26.240 --> 20:26.440]  Yeah.
[20:27.600 --> 20:29.620]  I don't know enough about their financials.
[20:30.640 --> 20:39.540]  Well, Freedom Premium Services, anonymous web browsing, and private encrypted email is discontinued from zero knowledge as of October 22nd.
[20:40.540 --> 20:45.300]  I think that, uh, we're... we're quickly running out of ways of being anonymous on the net.
[20:45.300 --> 20:49.760]  And that's, uh, something that I think will wind up hurting us quite a bit.
[20:49.920 --> 20:50.080]  Well...
[20:50.080 --> 20:51.120]  If that's actually...
[20:51.120 --> 20:52.160]  It depends...
[20:52.160 --> 20:53.380]  It depends on your threat model.
[20:53.500 --> 20:55.000]  Who are you trying to be anonymous from?
[20:57.910 --> 20:58.830]  Does that really matter?
[20:59.030 --> 20:59.550]  It does.
[20:59.750 --> 21:00.010]  Okay.
[21:00.270 --> 21:11.330]  Because you can, uh, you know, walk into someplace like, uh, Easy Everything and basically be anonymous, except to those people who have the resources by which they can track down, you know, was it your dollar?
[21:11.810 --> 21:12.970]  You know, how long were you there?
[21:13.090 --> 21:14.270]  Did you actually walk into the place?
[21:14.490 --> 21:14.510]  Well, there's cameras everywhere.
[21:14.510 --> 21:15.490]  Yeah, there's cameras for one thing.
[21:15.490 --> 21:15.810]  Okay.
[21:16.010 --> 21:16.970]  Well, who's gonna do that?
[21:17.170 --> 21:35.290]  You know, if you log into some rinky-dink website and leave a message on their guest board saying that you don't like the webmaster, is he going to be able to spend the money to fly to New York, manage to convince the, uh, the managers of Easy Everything with a lawsuit to turn over the tape so he can try to run your face against a database he doesn't have access to?
[21:35.430 --> 21:37.050]  I mean, who are you trying to be anonymous from?
[21:37.970 --> 21:39.450]  It's, it's a, it's a, it's a threat model.
[21:41.610 --> 21:46.810]  Well, we're open to, uh, all forms of anonymity and if people have, uh, suggestions as to how to go about doing that.
[21:46.950 --> 21:51.750]  Also, encryption is something that the majority of Americans now feel should be regulated in some way.
[21:51.890 --> 21:52.650]  Which is bad.
[21:52.790 --> 21:58.910]  That's very bad and that's, uh, that's one of the many things that are happening here that, uh, will wind up hurting us more than, than, uh, any terror attack.
[21:58.910 --> 22:03.630]  That's a perfect example of your idea of, the further you clamp down, the worse it gets.
[22:03.830 --> 22:03.890]  Right.
[22:03.890 --> 22:06.550]  I mean, for encryption to work, it really has to be let go.
[22:06.750 --> 22:16.830]  So I think there's never been a more vital time to have, uh, both anonymity and forms of encryption because that's something that, uh, are, are vital to our free society.
[22:17.230 --> 22:18.270]  And, um...
[22:18.270 --> 22:18.910]  What's our security?
[22:19.490 --> 22:20.010]  And our security?
[22:20.170 --> 22:20.850]  Well, I suppose, yeah.
[22:21.150 --> 22:22.570]  There's a reason encryption works.
[22:22.690 --> 22:24.150]  It's, it's, it's a method of security.
[22:24.350 --> 22:25.810]  I'm talking about encryption for individuals.
[22:26.190 --> 22:26.370]  Yeah.
[22:26.550 --> 22:27.310]  That's something that...
[22:27.310 --> 22:28.010]  Personal security.
[22:28.250 --> 22:29.090]  Stress is important.
[22:29.330 --> 22:29.610]  Absolutely.
[22:30.350 --> 22:33.210]  So if you have, uh, suggestions on that, please, uh, contact us.
[22:33.390 --> 22:37.670]  So if you have other places to point, um, point users that are, uh, that are interested in that.
[22:37.850 --> 22:39.890]  And, uh, Jim has, uh, an answer to that, I guess.
[22:40.050 --> 22:41.630]  I want to say something about this.
[22:42.050 --> 22:47.850]  Uh, Isaac, uh, and I usually share the same political end of the spectrum, but in this we have to disagree.
[22:48.470 --> 23:01.150]  If, if Isaac strangely supports encryption but is not that supportive of anonymity, if you're using encryption and you're not anonymous, doesn't, doesn't that raise, doesn't that raise a red flag?
[23:01.150 --> 23:04.250]  I mean, they can bring other pressures to bear upon you?
[23:05.650 --> 23:09.370]  I'm, I, alright, don't, don't read my words as saying I'm not for anonymity.
[23:09.450 --> 23:17.930]  I am entirely for anonymity, but the point is that you can be completely anonymous against the guy next door as compared to trying to be anonymous from a government.
[23:17.930 --> 23:21.270]  I mean, there, there's a lot more resources that go into one or the other.
[23:21.370 --> 23:21.530]  See, I think it's...
[23:21.530 --> 23:27.890]  And don't, don't equate encryption with anonymity because, you know, if you're sent, you, there's this wonderful thing called traffic analysis.
[23:28.270 --> 23:41.630]  You, if you make requests to a website, despite the fact that you can't see the payload of the request, the idea that, you know, this person is talking to kittyporn.com kind of gives you the idea of what he's getting in those encrypted packets.
[23:42.890 --> 23:45.950]  I mean, there's a, don't, don't try to equate the two.
[23:46.390 --> 23:46.650]  Alright.
[23:46.770 --> 23:48.050]  And I'm, I'm all for anonymity.
[23:48.190 --> 23:52.330]  It's just an issue of how much do we want to spend resource-wise to try and do it.
[23:52.710 --> 23:59.430]  ZKS was not a, a, a, a really defendable position as they were trying to, to play it.
[24:00.490 --> 24:07.270]  Well, just, we're, we're, we're turning into a society that believes that both anonymity and, uh, encryption are signs of guilt.
[24:07.950 --> 24:08.650]  And it's, uh...
[24:08.650 --> 24:09.350]  Which is a big problem.
[24:09.350 --> 24:10.350]  It's a very big problem.
[24:10.350 --> 24:12.570]  And it's not a problem that's going to go away anytime soon.
[24:12.570 --> 24:14.490]  And it's certainly, uh, not getting any better.
[24:14.930 --> 24:16.090]  And I think the, uh...
[24:16.090 --> 24:17.030]  What's that phrase they use?
[24:17.670 --> 24:20.370]  If, if you're not guilty, what do you have to hide?
[24:20.530 --> 24:20.990]  That's a, yeah.
[24:21.170 --> 24:22.190]  Edwin, Edwin Meese.
[24:22.570 --> 24:22.670]  Yeah, yeah.
[24:22.790 --> 24:24.250]  One of the famous things, uh, he said.
[24:26.390 --> 24:27.110]  Yes, uh...
[24:27.550 --> 24:29.070]  And then, of course, we get to the media.
[24:29.770 --> 24:31.670]  And how they're, they're handling this whole thing.
[24:31.830 --> 24:32.870]  And what they're, what they're not doing.
[24:32.950 --> 24:35.490]  I'd like to read some excerpts from this, uh, released by FAIR.
[24:35.650 --> 24:36.850]  Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting.
[24:36.850 --> 24:46.630]  Uh, since the September 11th terrorist attacks, the New York Times has downplayed and distorted peace rallies and demonstrations against a military response.
[24:47.230 --> 24:50.190]  After thousands of anti-war activists gathered in Washington, D.C.
[24:50.250 --> 24:50.810]  on September 29th.
[24:51.290 --> 24:51.750]  And listen to this.
[24:51.810 --> 24:54.130]  This is, this is kind of scary the way this, uh, all came about.
[24:54.550 --> 24:55.390]  September 29th.
[24:55.610 --> 24:57.410]  Thousands of anti-war activists gathered in Washington, D.C.
[24:57.450 --> 25:04.890]  The Times responded with a 10-sentence story under the headline, Protesters in Washington Urge Peace with Terrorists.
[25:05.610 --> 25:06.050]  Hmm.
[25:06.230 --> 25:16.470]  Given, given that a call for bringing terrorists to justice through non-military means was central to the rallies, the headline is a gross mischaracterization of the protesters' message.
[25:16.810 --> 25:21.330]  The Times also misreported other basic facts, like the size of the crowd in Washington.
[25:21.570 --> 25:27.930]  The Times estimated that a few hundred protesters were on hand, while the official police estimate was 7,000.
[25:28.450 --> 25:33.590]  And a few months ago, you had the, the Moms Against Handguns or whatever the heck it was.
[25:33.690 --> 25:34.870]  What are you bringing them into this for?
[25:34.950 --> 25:38.250]  Well, it's an idea of how the media is on the other side of an issue.
[25:38.530 --> 25:46.210]  They said that there were tens of thousands of individuals there, but actual photographs of the grounds and the, and the lawn show that it was maybe a few paltry thousand.
[25:47.450 --> 25:48.090]  All right, well...
[25:48.090 --> 25:49.990]  The point is that the media could swing its bias either way.
[25:49.990 --> 25:50.370]  I wasn't there for that one.
[25:50.490 --> 25:52.230]  I wasn't, I wasn't following that one very closely.
[25:52.230 --> 25:54.430]  And to be so shocked is that they would...
[25:54.430 --> 25:58.430]  That would be a first for the media actually overestimating a crowd size, so I've never known them to do that.
[25:58.530 --> 26:01.710]  But I guess in today's liberal media, that's a common occurrence.
[26:01.950 --> 26:05.830]  This was, this rally was shown on C-SPAN Live.
[26:06.070 --> 26:10.710]  The New York Times reporters didn't even have to leave their desk to know that there were more than a few hundred people there.
[26:10.790 --> 26:13.950]  But you see, C-SPAN is a network I trust, because they don't talk over things.
[26:13.950 --> 26:16.030]  They let you see for yourself what's going on.
[26:16.150 --> 26:17.710]  I think we need C-SPAN for sports.
[26:18.770 --> 26:23.970]  I want to see a NASCAR race just with the actual cameras and listen to the rumble in the background.
[26:24.090 --> 26:27.510]  Well, I just would like to see the C-SPAN approach used in more news items.
[26:27.690 --> 26:28.010]  I agree.
[26:28.330 --> 26:29.790]  And, you know, less interpretation.
[26:29.970 --> 26:32.070]  For instance, the speech by...
[26:32.070 --> 26:33.070]  More camera angles, though.
[26:33.150 --> 26:36.350]  The Bin Laden speech was released, you know, a couple of days ago.
[26:36.390 --> 26:42.410]  Can anyone find a copy of that, a real copy of that, not with somebody from CNN speaking over what he's saying?
[26:42.650 --> 26:46.350]  You know, I can hear, I can't believe they use levels like this over there, but it sounds really distorted.
[26:46.830 --> 26:48.710]  I can't believe they would let a tape like that get out.
[26:48.970 --> 26:49.970]  But, apparently...
[26:49.970 --> 26:51.590]  It wasn't a tape, it was a rebroadcast.
[26:51.790 --> 26:52.470]  It was a tape.
[26:52.550 --> 26:53.590]  It was a tape that was handed out.
[26:53.650 --> 26:54.690]  That's my understanding of it.
[26:54.790 --> 26:56.650]  A tape of a speech that he gave at some point.
[26:57.010 --> 26:58.050]  Regardless of the levels.
[26:58.230 --> 27:02.710]  I recall seeing on Sunday a live coverage, a live rebroadcast of Afghan TV where he was talking.
[27:03.130 --> 27:05.790]  Well, it's an Arab TV network that comes out of Qatar, actually.
[27:05.950 --> 27:06.110]  Okay, whatever.
[27:06.130 --> 27:08.590]  That you can get on Dish Network over here in the United States.
[27:08.690 --> 27:08.850]  Really?
[27:09.030 --> 27:09.210]  Yeah.
[27:09.450 --> 27:12.930]  So, but the thing is, everything I've found on the web has been edited.
[27:13.190 --> 27:14.690]  It has people talking over it.
[27:14.690 --> 27:21.850]  So, there is no opportunity for somebody to actually sit down with this tape, who understands the language, and give their version of the translation.
[27:22.150 --> 27:22.530]  You know?
[27:22.850 --> 27:24.970]  And that's what I say, that's what I call the C-SPAN approach.
[27:25.170 --> 27:32.690]  Where, basically, you have the first-hand knowledge, and you interpret that as you will, instead of being told what's being said.
[27:32.810 --> 27:37.990]  Well, the C-SPAN approach for something outside of the country would have to have a translator involved, no?
[27:37.990 --> 27:44.090]  Well, yeah, you can have a translator involved, but the translator doesn't always have to be completely distorting what the person is saying, talking over them.
[27:44.170 --> 27:45.710]  It can be captions instead.
[27:46.730 --> 27:52.170]  Don't you see the risk involved when you have somebody obliterating what the person is saying and telling you what they're saying?
[27:52.790 --> 27:53.150]  Yeah.
[27:53.150 --> 27:58.290]  Imagine if I turned down your mic and told people what you were saying, while you move your lips and no sound comes out.
[27:58.310 --> 27:59.050]  Let's not try that.
[27:59.630 --> 28:00.890]  Anyway, continuing with this story.
[28:01.030 --> 28:07.230]  One only had to watch the live coverage on C-SPAN to know that the Times was way off as far as the protest.
[28:07.550 --> 28:12.590]  The next day, the Times ran a slightly longer story about the second day of protest on page B7.
[28:12.910 --> 28:20.610]  The photo that accompanied the story, however, was dominated by a sign held by one of the counter demonstrators, Osama thanks fellow cowards for your support.
[28:21.530 --> 28:22.390]  Isn't that great?
[28:23.130 --> 28:27.030]  The rallies held in Washington were not the first time the paper downplayed peace activism.
[28:27.030 --> 28:37.570]  On September 21st, the paper reported on the protests that were held on about 150 campuses across the country, but the perspectives of the thousands of students who participated in the day of action were almost entirely absent.
[28:37.830 --> 28:42.270]  Of the 11 students quoted in the article, only one voiced an anti-war opinion.
[28:42.750 --> 28:50.350]  Instead, the article was dominated by students who supported going to war or those who could not recall seeing any anti-war sentiment on campus.
[28:50.350 --> 28:52.110]  What do you think about that, Mike, since you were part of this?
[28:52.110 --> 28:52.590]  Yes.
[28:53.530 --> 29:09.990]  Very shortly after the 11th, I think on the 12th, we had a rally, a peace vigil at Columbia, and the New York Times actually bothered to send a reporter, and they quoted one of the speakers as explaining how confused he was.
[29:10.130 --> 29:12.870]  Now, this was an accurate quote, but it was taken way out of context.
[29:13.790 --> 29:26.450]  The person who they quoted, his name is Misha, is one of the leaders of the peace movement at Columbia, and the Times didn't even bother to ask his name.
[29:26.590 --> 29:28.510]  I mean, this was really shoddy reporting.
[29:29.850 --> 29:41.830]  Although I should, when I criticize them when they do badly, I should say that there was a rally this Sunday, and the story on Monday was not wonderful, but it was better than it has been.
[29:41.950 --> 29:45.710]  They actually admitted that there were 10,000 people marching in Union Square this weekend.
[29:45.790 --> 29:45.970]  Wow.
[29:46.310 --> 29:49.550]  Although they gave almost equal coverage to the 50 counter-demonstrators.
[29:49.550 --> 29:53.130]  You know, I was watching... I forget which news channel I was watching.
[29:53.230 --> 29:53.830]  It might have been CNN.
[29:54.570 --> 29:57.950]  But basically, there was no coverage at all of Times Square.
[29:58.050 --> 29:59.590]  In fact, they... well, of Union Square.
[29:59.670 --> 30:08.070]  They showed Times Square, and they talked to the mayor, but they made no reference of anybody saying anything other than what everybody else is saying throughout the country.
[30:08.930 --> 30:17.390]  Those of us who were there, this was a big event this weekend with, as I said, 10,000 people, and we had two Nobel Peace Prize winners speak.
[30:18.470 --> 30:20.150]  Amy Goodman from Democracy Now!
[30:20.290 --> 30:20.750]  was speaking.
[30:20.950 --> 30:21.870]  It was a major event.
[30:22.150 --> 30:32.350]  It makes me wonder, those who are so, you know, unsure of their position that they have to silence anybody who opposes them, or ridicule them, or just pretend it doesn't exist, you know?
[30:32.490 --> 30:33.410]  I mean, I don't think...
[30:33.410 --> 30:34.130]  I need a recording of this show.
[30:34.210 --> 30:34.730]  This is great.
[30:35.490 --> 30:51.870]  I'm finding it absolutely delightful that the turnabout here is being so vehemently opposed, that the concept that, you know, 40... we'll use the handgun one again before...
[30:51.870 --> 30:57.770]  you know, 40 anti-gun demonstrators that show up at a Second Amendment sisters rally...
[30:57.770 --> 30:59.050]  Why don't we stick to this issue?
[30:59.150 --> 30:59.810]  ...receive a full-page ad...
[31:00.250 --> 31:03.730]  Why don't we stick to this issue instead of bringing in all the other things you want to cover?
[31:03.730 --> 31:06.550]  Because we'll be going into abortion soon, and you know, I don't want to go there.
[31:06.730 --> 31:09.310]  I'm not going to go to abortion, although there's perfect examples of that as well.
[31:10.190 --> 31:13.830]  All right, well, this isn't a right-wing, gender-ringing-out contest here.
[31:13.930 --> 31:15.990]  Let's just stick to the...
[31:15.990 --> 31:17.050]  I just want a recording of this.
[31:17.110 --> 31:17.690]  This is going to be great.
[31:17.750 --> 31:17.990]  Go ahead.
[31:18.130 --> 31:18.330]  Oh, okay.
[31:18.410 --> 31:19.630]  What was your point just now?
[31:19.810 --> 31:33.070]  My point just now is that I'm expressing my delight over the fact that the turnabout of the press onto the anti-war activists is most amusing to me, as opposed to the alignment on the other side.
[31:33.070 --> 31:36.650]  You're seeing the American media as suddenly becoming conservative.
[31:36.910 --> 31:38.510]  You're seeing this for the first time.
[31:38.670 --> 31:41.210]  Well, I'm seeing it in this particular instance.
[31:41.230 --> 31:42.050]  Your eyes are seeing the light.
[31:42.770 --> 31:44.710]  It's not necessarily the light.
[31:44.830 --> 31:45.250]  Very interesting.
[31:45.690 --> 31:51.490]  Well, speaking of media and that kind of thing, we got lots of pieces of mail for last week's show, on the show before that, too.
[31:52.110 --> 32:06.090]  And this person said that there is audio of the Palestinian celebrations, which I put in quotes, that took place after the bombing, or the crashing into the World Trade Center, which might as well be a bombing.
[32:06.890 --> 32:08.230]  And he gave a URL.
[32:08.450 --> 32:12.530]  And I'll give that URL here because we don't have time to play it, obviously.
[32:12.530 --> 32:17.810]  And, plus, anybody with internet access who has audio can probably hear this.
[32:18.510 --> 32:28.810]  It's www.jpost.com slash editions, with a capital E, slash 2001, slash 09, slash 11, slash radio, with a capital R.
[32:28.890 --> 32:30.970]  Actually, I don't know if the case is that important in that particular.
[32:31.150 --> 32:31.310]  No, URL.
[32:31.310 --> 32:31.930]  Yeah, it doesn't matter.
[32:32.090 --> 32:32.330]  Oh, wait.
[32:32.690 --> 32:37.010]  jpost.com slash editions, slash 2001, slash 09, slash 11, slash radio.
[32:37.010 --> 32:39.990]  If it's after the actual domain name, yes, it is important.
[32:40.050 --> 32:40.310]  Okay.
[32:40.470 --> 32:41.610]  Well, then capitalize those words.
[32:41.610 --> 32:42.010]  Okay.
[32:42.290 --> 32:43.390]  And it's interesting, too.
[32:43.510 --> 32:47.010]  I suggest everybody listen to this, because this is exactly what I was talking about.
[32:47.390 --> 32:55.050]  If you listen to it without thinking, you will come away with the impression that, wow, those evil Palestinians, what horrible things they were doing.
[32:55.570 --> 32:59.850]  But if you listen to it a little bit more critically, you'll ask yourself some questions.
[32:59.970 --> 33:09.630]  For instance, you have a reporter who is obviously outraged by something he's witnessing, saying that there are people celebrating, but you don't hear any of the people celebrating.
[33:09.630 --> 33:11.710]  You hear him describing them, but you don't hear any of the chanting.
[33:11.890 --> 33:14.430]  You hear crowd noise, but you don't hear celebrations.
[33:15.070 --> 33:27.630]  You do hear one person who goes on for a very long time, and very good English, by the way, a Palestinian shopkeeper, who goes on for about three or four minutes about how happy he is, and how America should suffer, and that kind of thing.
[33:27.770 --> 33:28.850]  This guy has no name.
[33:29.070 --> 33:30.510]  This guy does not give a name at all.
[33:30.670 --> 33:36.070]  But he's very well-spoken and says everything that you would expect somebody that evil to say.
[33:36.410 --> 33:40.830]  The next people after that, though, do give names, and they're all outraged by what's going on.
[33:41.690 --> 33:48.210]  One person in particular says that, when told by the reporter that there's all these people celebrating, she's not aware of it.
[33:48.870 --> 33:52.790]  If there's all these people celebrating down the street, how could you not be aware of it?
[33:52.790 --> 33:54.730]  You know, there's little hidden things like that.
[33:54.870 --> 33:59.190]  We need brain scans of these people to see if they're actually celebrating.
[33:59.390 --> 34:01.230]  I should point out that this is from the...
[34:01.230 --> 34:01.870]  Come on!
[34:02.250 --> 34:02.990]  Come on!
[34:03.450 --> 34:07.310]  This is from the Jerusalem Post, which makes the New York Times look like a bunch of doves.
[34:07.430 --> 34:07.730]  Of course!
[34:07.850 --> 34:09.030]  It's the Jerusalem Post!
[34:09.050 --> 34:12.790]  We must send this brain wave scanning company to the...
[34:13.310 --> 34:14.010]  Where the hell are they?
[34:14.050 --> 34:14.430]  Palestine.
[34:15.170 --> 34:15.910]  The point is...
[34:15.910 --> 34:18.390]  To see if they're actually thinking evil thoughts.
[34:18.530 --> 34:21.350]  The point is, you're distorting as much as Din Laden does.
[34:21.350 --> 34:21.970]  This is ridiculous!
[34:22.410 --> 34:22.970]  Stop screaming into the microphone.
[34:23.030 --> 34:23.630]  What is...
[34:23.630 --> 34:26.130]  I'm going to turn you way down until you stop screaming.
[34:26.670 --> 34:27.150]  Alright.
[34:27.750 --> 34:34.870]  The point is, you have to look at media with a critical eye or you will be led around like a sheep.
[34:35.490 --> 34:37.670]  Or whatever gets led around these days.
[34:38.770 --> 34:41.090]  I'm not saying that things did not happen over there.
[34:41.150 --> 34:42.250]  Obviously, something happened.
[34:42.350 --> 34:43.630]  There are some idiots that did something.
[34:43.630 --> 34:51.210]  But, you know, to believe what the media says, and just without questioning it, is wrong.
[34:51.430 --> 34:52.510]  I mean, you know that, right?
[34:52.790 --> 34:53.710]  I know that very well.
[34:53.770 --> 34:53.950]  Alright.
[34:54.110 --> 34:56.590]  So, that's the simple point being made here.
[34:57.210 --> 35:02.210]  And nowhere can you see better examples of that than in American media right now, which is basically all saying the same thing.
[35:02.370 --> 35:05.990]  Not covering alternative ideas or opinions.
[35:06.310 --> 35:08.850]  And that's something that needs to be focused on.
[35:08.850 --> 35:10.190]  And that's why we need a place like this.
[35:10.730 --> 35:12.630]  Because it's really the only place you're going to hear it.
[35:14.590 --> 35:14.990]  Alright.
[35:15.130 --> 35:15.790]  Something else.
[35:16.150 --> 35:17.730]  And this really upsets me.
[35:18.470 --> 35:22.050]  I think all of us have been to Union Square at one point or another shortly afterwards.
[35:22.070 --> 35:27.990]  And it was probably the most amazing, the most moving thing I've seen since what happened.
[35:28.810 --> 35:38.590]  Basically, the entire park was turned into a memorial with candles, pictures, statues, you name it.
[35:38.850 --> 35:41.790]  Just a way for people to come together and share in the grief.
[35:43.490 --> 35:44.870]  Not, you know, the flag waving.
[35:45.130 --> 35:47.930]  Not the, you know, calls for blood and hatred and that kind of thing.
[35:48.050 --> 35:50.090]  I mean, yeah, there's a place for that.
[35:50.210 --> 35:52.030]  And that's going on everywhere.
[35:52.550 --> 35:52.950]  Fine.
[35:53.210 --> 35:54.790]  But this was something solemn.
[35:54.910 --> 35:55.730]  This was something quiet.
[35:55.850 --> 35:57.830]  This was something, you know, non-sectarian.
[35:58.110 --> 35:58.890]  All the faces.
[35:59.190 --> 35:59.770]  Non-political.
[36:00.050 --> 36:01.050]  Totally non-political.
[36:01.210 --> 36:02.170]  And it's all gone.
[36:02.430 --> 36:03.810]  It's all been taken down.
[36:04.790 --> 36:07.250]  And I just think it was taken down way too soon.
[36:07.250 --> 36:09.010]  I think people still need time to grieve.
[36:09.170 --> 36:11.510]  And they need a place to go for reflection.
[36:12.490 --> 36:14.730]  A place to go where they can look at the faces of the people.
[36:15.610 --> 36:18.890]  And I just want to read this thing that comes from our friend Reverend Billy.
[36:19.310 --> 36:20.330]  Who many of you may know.
[36:21.130 --> 36:22.970]  This is basically a public message.
[36:22.970 --> 36:25.010]  I'd like to ask you to take care of Union Square.
[36:25.670 --> 36:30.410]  Recently, park police cleared the candles, flowers, and messages from the shrine around the Washington statue.
[36:30.770 --> 36:36.170]  We are being instructed to withdraw from the public space that we reclaimed after the tragedy.
[36:36.810 --> 36:45.690]  By looking into each other's eyes and telling our own stories, by demoting the role of the media and advertising in our lives, we have let the dead rise into us and make us better people.
[36:45.690 --> 36:50.070]  New York streets and parks have become over surveilled and policed and corporatized.
[36:50.310 --> 36:55.430]  A Byzantine permit process for gatherings and parades was making it difficult to talk with each other.
[36:55.870 --> 37:02.210]  Union Square, where the eight-hour day was won years ago when sweatshop workers declared a general strike, has become a very special place.
[37:03.130 --> 37:05.630]  This last Friday night, it was like a Fellini movie there.
[37:05.750 --> 37:09.610]  Artists of all kinds, painting, breakdancing, people arguing like Hyde Park in London.
[37:09.870 --> 37:11.510]  A real culture-making center.
[37:11.770 --> 37:16.090]  No corporate sponsorship, no police, and an amazing feeling of happy risk.
[37:17.070 --> 37:19.690]  Come by and leave your own poem or picture or flowers.
[37:19.870 --> 37:23.450]  We are circulating a petition to leave the shrine alone, but meanwhile, keep it going.
[37:23.830 --> 37:31.030]  If you're walking within a few blocks of Union Square in your daily work, come by and talk with someone, share a name or a story, leave something on the fence.
[37:32.250 --> 37:36.370]  Hopefully, Union Square will again become a place for people to gather.
[37:36.510 --> 37:36.770]  Yes, Jim.
[37:37.210 --> 37:46.330]  The official posters that they've put up say that the Parks Department and the Smithsonian have removed this for archival purposes.
[37:47.570 --> 38:02.510]  I personally believe that it's simply that the Parks Commissioner, Henry Stern, who I believe is Robert Moses reincarnated, can't stand anything bigger than him in the parks, such as grief.
[38:03.510 --> 38:17.850]  Consequently, though I am definitely not a political activist, I believe that the public should, if the first official story is true, find a toll-free number for the Smithsonian.
[38:17.850 --> 38:20.330]  I don't care what branch of the Smithsonian it is.
[38:20.690 --> 38:21.310]  Call them up.
[38:21.530 --> 38:23.050]  Tell them what fools they are.
[38:23.570 --> 38:32.850]  Write your congressman, your senator, and ask them to cut funding and or otherwise punish the Smithsonian for taking away a living memorial.
[38:33.710 --> 38:41.590]  And frankly, I believe that Henry Stern should get anything he can short of summary execution.
[38:42.350 --> 38:43.690]  How long should it have been there?
[38:44.370 --> 38:47.570]  Until no one added anything, until people started complaining.
[38:47.770 --> 38:51.190]  You can't really put an artificial deadline or something like that.
[38:51.290 --> 38:55.370]  You just know when people have expressed themselves.
[38:55.670 --> 38:57.410]  Well, how much wax was going to pile up?
[38:57.470 --> 38:58.890]  How many pieces of paper were going to be...
[38:58.890 --> 38:59.550]  Why is that a problem?
[38:59.910 --> 39:00.930]  I'm just curious.
[39:02.170 --> 39:08.790]  Oh, like we were on a baseball field or a hockey rink that people were actively using that they would have slipped on the wax.
[39:09.710 --> 39:16.810]  Isaac, please, the official line is so unbelievable in this case that even you and I can't believe it.
[39:18.690 --> 39:19.730]  Don't tell me what I think.
[39:20.010 --> 39:20.730]  Yeah, well...
[39:20.730 --> 39:21.930]  Okay, good point.
[39:22.090 --> 39:22.450]  We'll see.
[39:23.490 --> 39:25.710]  Okay, we're going to take some phone calls.
[39:25.790 --> 39:28.550]  But before we do, I just want to share some things.
[39:29.450 --> 39:31.090]  First of all, let's get a dial tone.
[39:32.270 --> 39:32.770]  All right.
[39:32.810 --> 39:33.450]  Beginning of the journey.
[39:33.850 --> 39:34.430]  Yeah, here we go.
[39:35.110 --> 39:39.310]  As you know, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[39:39.530 --> 39:39.730]  No.
[39:40.930 --> 39:42.190]  Well, that is our phone number.
[39:42.290 --> 39:43.330]  And if you dial that number...
[39:43.330 --> 39:45.090]  Actually, I shouldn't have done that.
[39:45.290 --> 39:46.350]  Because I'm in 212.
[39:46.430 --> 39:47.270]  I don't have to dial 212.
[39:47.810 --> 39:48.430]  Start it again.
[39:49.230 --> 39:52.050]  If you dial 209-2900, this is what you hear.
[40:00.560 --> 40:01.360]  We're sorry.
[40:01.560 --> 40:03.580]  Your call can now be completed as dialed.
[40:03.680 --> 40:06.400]  Please check the area code and number and dial again.
[40:08.100 --> 40:09.660]  Now, I don't understand this.
[40:09.800 --> 40:13.820]  Why is the phone company saying that this number doesn't exist?
[40:14.140 --> 40:14.800]  There are...
[40:14.800 --> 40:20.580]  Yeah, they should be routing them to a single recording saying, this number used to exist, but due to some actions...
[40:20.580 --> 40:20.640]  Yeah, there are recordings.
[40:20.640 --> 40:29.800]  There are recordings that say that due to a facility problems in your area, you know, we cannot complete your call.
[40:30.000 --> 40:31.640]  That at least tells the people there's something wrong.
[40:31.720 --> 40:35.300]  But people calling BAI, they get this recording like they've dialed the wrong number.
[40:35.300 --> 40:37.160]  And there's absolutely no way that...
[40:37.160 --> 40:37.840]  Actually, you know what?
[40:37.900 --> 40:38.920]  I want to see if...
[40:38.920 --> 40:40.620]  I want to see what the information says.
[40:40.900 --> 40:42.100]  I was just going to ask that.
[40:42.160 --> 40:43.360]  Yeah, let's try that right now.
[40:45.080 --> 40:45.400]  Okay.
[40:45.400 --> 40:46.580]  Have you tried it with the area code?
[40:47.220 --> 40:48.380]  I don't think we can dial the area...
[40:48.380 --> 40:49.300]  Actually, maybe we can.
[40:49.460 --> 40:49.940]  Let's try that.
[40:50.140 --> 40:50.540]  It should be.
[40:57.880 --> 40:59.560]  Probably the same recording or a similar one.
[40:59.620 --> 40:59.900]  Wait a go.
[41:05.430 --> 41:06.070]  We're sorry.
[41:06.290 --> 41:08.290]  Your call can now be completed as dialed.
[41:08.430 --> 41:09.670]  Please check the area code.
[41:09.730 --> 41:10.150]  Same recording.
[41:10.150 --> 41:11.390]  Okay.
[41:11.590 --> 41:15.110]  So now, let's try calling information.
[41:15.330 --> 41:16.170]  See what happens here.
[41:19.290 --> 41:21.670]  Hopefully, we won't have to deal with this automated nonsense.
[41:23.010 --> 41:25.650]  Welcome to Verizon Local and National 411.
[41:26.350 --> 41:27.430]  What listing?
[41:28.470 --> 41:29.150]  WBAI.
[41:29.930 --> 41:30.890]  Thank you.
[41:31.070 --> 41:31.630]  Please wait.
[41:34.130 --> 41:35.410]  Hi, from Manhattan?
[41:35.990 --> 41:36.610]  That's right.
[41:36.610 --> 41:37.310]  Okay.
[41:37.310 --> 41:38.090]  There's two numbers.
[41:38.270 --> 41:38.570]  Thank you.
[41:39.990 --> 41:49.610]  For the first listing, the number is area code 212-209-2800.
[41:50.550 --> 41:51.370]  Well, that's our office.
[41:51.530 --> 42:01.790]  For the second listing, the number is area code 212-363-4750.
[42:01.790 --> 42:02.950]  I don't know that number.
[42:03.350 --> 42:03.430]  Okay.
[42:03.930 --> 42:06.450]  Again, for the first listing, the number is...
[42:06.450 --> 42:06.830]  All right.
[42:06.950 --> 42:07.830]  Well, that's...
[42:07.830 --> 42:09.870]  Maybe somebody can call that and tell us where that goes.
[42:10.130 --> 42:10.810]  It might be the alternate.
[42:11.290 --> 42:12.570]  I guess so, but...
[42:12.570 --> 42:14.410]  That might be the alternate office number.
[42:14.410 --> 42:15.490]  I've never heard that number before.
[42:15.630 --> 42:16.130]  Neither have I.
[42:16.330 --> 42:16.650]  Right.
[42:17.630 --> 42:18.290]  What is it again?
[42:18.930 --> 42:19.250]  363.
[42:19.510 --> 42:19.670]  Okay.
[42:19.710 --> 42:19.970]  Hang on.
[42:20.050 --> 42:20.270]  Hang on.
[42:21.110 --> 42:22.050]  Trying to get a dial tone here.
[42:22.550 --> 42:24.870]  Actually, the problem is people are calling in, and I wish...
[42:24.870 --> 42:26.990]  We don't have any lines, so people can hang up?
[42:27.310 --> 42:29.290]  We'll just hit it three times and hang up on someone.
[42:29.450 --> 42:29.650]  Okay.
[42:30.030 --> 42:32.930]  I have to hang up on everybody who's calling in because...
[42:33.750 --> 42:34.070]  Hi.
[42:34.390 --> 42:35.190]  People aren't...
[42:35.190 --> 42:36.470]  People are being idiots here.
[42:37.910 --> 42:38.390]  Idiot, huh?
[42:38.790 --> 42:39.110]  Okay.
[42:39.430 --> 42:41.830]  Well, I guess we can't do this until everybody hangs up.
[42:42.970 --> 42:43.970]  It's nice to be held hostage.
[42:44.190 --> 42:44.750]  Just pick 12 a couple times.
[42:44.830 --> 42:47.290]  Pick up the receiver, hit 12 a couple times, and wait for it to free.
[42:47.290 --> 42:48.430]  What do you mean hit 12 a couple times?
[42:48.910 --> 42:55.510]  Pick up the receiver, pick it up, tell the person to go away, hit the button again, and then pick it up so you have a dial tone.
[42:55.950 --> 42:56.210]  Then hit...
[42:56.210 --> 42:57.010]  That's what I'm trying to do!
[42:57.010 --> 42:57.430]  Okay.
[42:57.690 --> 42:57.930]  Never mind.
[42:58.670 --> 42:59.270]  Dial W.
[42:59.590 --> 42:59.910]  See?
[43:00.050 --> 43:00.790]  They're not hanging up.
[43:00.910 --> 43:02.010]  They're just sitting there.
[43:02.730 --> 43:03.070]  All right.
[43:03.170 --> 43:05.830]  If people do not hang up, we will take no phone calls tonight.
[43:06.030 --> 43:06.610]  How about that?
[43:06.810 --> 43:07.050]  Ooh.
[43:07.230 --> 43:08.070]  You can listen to me.
[43:08.350 --> 43:09.410]  The number is busy.
[43:09.510 --> 43:10.550]  I tried it on my cell phone.
[43:11.490 --> 43:12.210]  Probably because...
[43:12.210 --> 43:12.230]  Great.
[43:12.230 --> 43:12.910]  You ruined the whole thing.
[43:13.010 --> 43:13.170]  Yeah.
[43:13.230 --> 43:14.130]  We could have heard a busy signal.
[43:14.190 --> 43:14.470]  Sorry.
[43:15.090 --> 43:15.570]  Oh, well.
[43:18.290 --> 43:18.770]  All right.
[43:18.870 --> 43:19.850]  We did get an answer faster.
[43:19.850 --> 43:21.950]  But I do want to call another number, so...
[43:21.950 --> 43:23.030]  Hang up anyway.
[43:24.770 --> 43:25.130]  Okay.
[43:25.250 --> 43:25.650]  There we go.
[43:27.270 --> 43:32.290]  This is what happens when you call something in the West Street Central Office.
[43:32.990 --> 43:36.090]  West Street Central Office was pretty much destroyed.
[43:36.390 --> 43:36.770]  Actually, no.
[43:36.830 --> 43:37.030]  I'm sorry.
[43:37.090 --> 43:39.410]  This is the South Tower of the World Trade Center.
[43:40.350 --> 43:41.210]  Listen to this.
[43:53.290 --> 43:53.950]  That's right.
[43:54.050 --> 43:54.290]  Nothing.
[43:54.290 --> 43:55.590]  It just kind of dies.
[43:57.490 --> 44:00.710]  All kinds of weird things have been happening in the last couple of weeks.
[44:01.010 --> 44:06.710]  Somebody told me that whenever they call something in the area of the World Trade Center, you're never going to believe what they got.
[44:07.070 --> 44:13.610]  They got a recording telling them how to obtain tickets for the 1986 World Series from Ticketron.
[44:14.290 --> 44:14.610]  Really?
[44:14.610 --> 44:17.530]  It was a choke recording from the old 955 Exchange.
[44:18.470 --> 44:18.790]  Wow.
[44:18.790 --> 44:22.910]  And somehow that recording got born again as a result of this.
[44:22.990 --> 44:23.810]  We've got to get that number.
[44:23.930 --> 44:24.650]  That's really wild.
[44:24.710 --> 44:25.610]  I don't think it works anymore.
[44:25.770 --> 44:27.190]  It was something that was working.
[44:29.370 --> 44:32.350]  Well, all the best to the Verizon employees who were trying to deal with this.
[44:32.350 --> 44:34.450]  I mean, it's really been kind of grueling.
[44:35.470 --> 44:36.570]  It's definitely true.
[44:36.750 --> 44:36.890]  All right.
[44:37.250 --> 44:38.270]  Let's try this one.
[44:39.090 --> 44:39.910]  This is West Street.
[44:43.740 --> 44:56.420]  You have reached the West Street DS0 office serving codes 267-298-312-406-416-436-437.
[44:57.800 --> 45:04.700]  4-4-9-5-8-7-6-1-8-6-4-0-6-6-7.
[45:06.200 --> 45:06.560]  Okay.
[45:06.560 --> 45:07.600]  Well, I guess he got cut off.
[45:08.540 --> 45:10.420]  He had to turn the page a couple times in the middle of that.
[45:10.520 --> 45:10.720]  Yeah.
[45:11.880 --> 45:14.880]  That's the West Street CL, which is where we're coming out of right now.
[45:15.780 --> 45:20.580]  There are pictures of the West Street CL circulating on the net, and it looks like it was completely...
[45:20.580 --> 45:23.160]  Well, there are a couple of floors that have holes in them.
[45:23.160 --> 45:26.140]  Debris that was coming down ripped out part of the wall.
[45:26.460 --> 45:33.960]  I also heard that the antenna on top of the tower actually impaled part of that building when it came down.
[45:34.300 --> 45:34.500]  Yeah.
[45:34.780 --> 45:35.520]  Not good.
[45:36.060 --> 45:36.300]  No.
[45:37.560 --> 45:41.700]  And then there's our exchange, which is now 968.
[45:49.730 --> 45:50.520]  Yes, Ari.
[45:50.790 --> 45:54.270]  You have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service.
[45:54.270 --> 45:59.320]  If you feel you have reached this recording in error, please check the number and draw your call again.
[46:00.120 --> 46:00.560]  Okay.
[46:00.620 --> 46:01.020]  That's strange.
[46:01.170 --> 46:07.980]  I don't know why we're getting that recording, but there is another switch inside West Street.
[46:08.170 --> 46:08.730]  You get this recording.
[46:17.560 --> 46:20.240]  You have reached the West Street DS-1 office.
[46:21.160 --> 46:24.360]  You have reached the West Street DS-1 office.
[46:26.960 --> 46:31.840]  Yeah, so there are two switches inside West Street that are operating somehow.
[46:32.180 --> 46:33.560]  I don't know how they're doing it.
[46:33.780 --> 46:37.340]  There's DS-1 and DS-0, both digital switches.
[46:37.780 --> 46:41.160]  And, of course, World Trade Center, South Tower, completely gone.
[46:42.100 --> 46:44.800]  There was a central office, I think, on the sixth floor or something.
[46:44.800 --> 46:57.040]  What I'd like to know, though, is from people out there, if they experienced anything particularly strange technology-wise and, you know, that aspect of it, which really hasn't been covered very much, and it's pretty interesting.
[46:57.240 --> 47:06.780]  I'd also like to touch upon one other thing, which we haven't touched upon, and that is what should happen in the future in that spot?
[47:06.960 --> 47:10.360]  What do you think is a good thing to do?
[47:10.580 --> 47:11.580]  Actually, I'll ask you that, Isaac.
[47:11.660 --> 47:14.160]  What do you think should be done where the World Trade Center once stood?
[47:14.160 --> 47:15.300]  I'll give you the...
[47:15.300 --> 47:16.500]  Actually, your microphone's down there, yeah.
[47:16.640 --> 47:16.800]  Okay.
[47:16.940 --> 47:23.460]  I'll give you the answer that someone actually told me, rather than my own, because I kind of agree with him.
[47:23.700 --> 47:30.380]  He said, a man is going to make a statement that... a man that I generally dislike.
[47:30.380 --> 47:31.420]  Can't you just answer the question?
[47:31.640 --> 47:33.880]  Well, you have to build up to it.
[47:34.120 --> 47:40.140]  A man who he generally dislikes, my friend here, is going to make a statement, and he's going to be 100% behind this guy.
[47:40.140 --> 47:45.160]  And he said, the man's going to be Donald Trump, and he's going to say, I'm going to rebuild it.
[47:45.780 --> 47:47.500]  And I need all the help that I can.
[47:47.820 --> 47:48.040]  Mm-hmm.
[47:48.300 --> 47:53.800]  And the result would be all these real estate guys coming in and rebuilding the towers.
[47:56.280 --> 48:00.900]  And he told me this like two or three days after the event, and I'm like, well, geez, I'm not even thinking that far ahead.
[48:01.020 --> 48:02.680]  I'm still trying to deal with what's going on downtown.
[48:03.000 --> 48:03.700]  And I...
[48:03.700 --> 48:06.400]  And he said it, and I go, you know, that makes a lot of sense.
[48:06.480 --> 48:07.120]  We've got to rebuild them.
[48:07.380 --> 48:07.980]  We have to.
[48:08.960 --> 48:09.920]  Is that your statement?
[48:10.080 --> 48:10.380]  That's...
[48:10.380 --> 48:12.400]  I'm going to agree, and I'm going to say we have to rebuild them.
[48:12.500 --> 48:12.680]  Okay.
[48:12.800 --> 48:13.780]  How do we rebuild them?
[48:14.060 --> 48:14.840]  How do we rebuild them?
[48:14.920 --> 48:15.080]  Yes.
[48:16.040 --> 48:17.180]  10 seconds or less, please.
[48:17.320 --> 48:19.520]  I'm thinking the towers as they were before.
[48:19.860 --> 48:20.780]  Just as they were before?
[48:22.040 --> 48:22.640]  Pretty much.
[48:22.640 --> 48:23.660]  So you can't tell the difference?
[48:24.700 --> 48:26.700]  Well, it would be obvious to anyone.
[48:26.900 --> 48:27.100]  Mm-hmm.
[48:27.280 --> 48:27.820]  Mike, what do you think, Mike?
[48:27.960 --> 48:28.320]  Perhaps...
[48:28.320 --> 48:28.780]  Oh, you know what?
[48:28.840 --> 48:32.700]  Those middle bands where the ventilation was?
[48:32.860 --> 48:35.080]  You know how they had those like two stripes and then the one on the top?
[48:35.260 --> 48:35.320]  Right.
[48:35.320 --> 48:36.380]  Maybe make those black.
[48:37.300 --> 48:38.100]  Mike, what do you think?
[48:39.080 --> 48:40.180]  I'm not going to answer either.
[48:40.420 --> 48:47.320]  I'm going to say there was an interesting article in today's Columbia Spectator where a whole bunch of architecture people gave their opinions, and I haven't decided who I agree with yet.
[48:47.540 --> 48:47.760]  Uh-huh.
[48:49.480 --> 48:57.820]  I'm of the view that it should be rebuilt bigger just because it's not a good thing to...
[48:57.820 --> 48:59.020]  Two towers, same kind of construction?
[48:59.180 --> 48:59.940]  Why not three towers?
[49:00.020 --> 49:00.720]  Why not three towers?
[49:01.020 --> 49:01.300]  You know?
[49:01.300 --> 49:03.020]  Well, it becomes a geologic issue.
[49:03.180 --> 49:03.640]  Yeah, that's true.
[49:03.700 --> 49:08.140]  But I just think whatever it is, it should not in any way be minimized.
[49:08.140 --> 49:11.140]  And it's got nothing to do with what the towers represent.
[49:11.480 --> 49:15.040]  It has to do with what happened to them, what happened to us.
[49:15.360 --> 49:26.080]  And I just think that if you say, make something nice and small in exchange as a replacement, then it's kind of a defeat in that regard.
[49:26.180 --> 49:26.260]  Yeah.
[49:26.740 --> 49:28.240]  And it's not something that...
[49:28.240 --> 49:29.880]  No matter what it is.
[49:29.960 --> 49:39.880]  If it's something that you don't have any relationship to at all, and I know a lot of people feel alienated by what the World Trade Center stands for, try to picture it this way.
[49:40.900 --> 49:49.840]  A house of religion, of a different religion than what you're affiliated with, like let's say a mosque or a church or something that is not part of your religion.
[49:50.260 --> 49:53.580]  Let's say that was destroyed by a crime of hate.
[49:53.960 --> 49:54.980]  What would you suggest?
[49:55.240 --> 49:57.040]  Would you suggest that they just not rebuild it?
[49:57.040 --> 50:01.940]  Or would you suggest they rebuild it bigger than ever and put it in the face of the people that did this to them?
[50:02.280 --> 50:08.880]  Regardless of what your view is, I think that's the only way to really pay tribute.
[50:09.040 --> 50:13.780]  So, American patriotism is a religion that some people in this country can disagree with?
[50:13.780 --> 50:17.040]  It's got nothing to do with, you know, your patriotism.
[50:17.120 --> 50:19.200]  It has to do with basically your spirit as an individual.
[50:20.440 --> 50:20.880]  Okay.
[50:21.480 --> 50:21.860]  Yes, Jim.
[50:23.020 --> 50:27.860]  I'm going to tell you what I don't think should be done, and I'll tell you why I don't think these should be done.
[50:28.080 --> 50:32.960]  The main counter-proposal is four 50-story towers for two reasons.
[50:33.300 --> 50:36.220]  Number one, gee, you can fly planes into it.
[50:36.380 --> 50:41.000]  Well, in that case, why don't we just tear down every building in New York and build underground?
[50:41.260 --> 50:41.420]  Right.
[50:41.600 --> 50:46.260]  No one will ever be able to fly planes in it, and we will scurry around like rats.
[50:47.960 --> 50:49.760]  That's why I don't go for it for one reason.
[50:49.760 --> 50:55.940]  Another reason that someone said to build four 50-story towers is give the firemen a fighting chance.
[50:56.280 --> 51:05.880]  Well, there's a science to fighting high-rises, and yes, I'm sure that at some level they become impossible to fight fires in.
[51:06.160 --> 51:16.440]  But if these planes did not hit the World Trade Center, if it was just a big fire on the 86th floor, it would not have happened the way it did.
[51:16.440 --> 51:18.940]  Most of the people who died would have gotten out.
[51:19.240 --> 51:21.640]  The firemen would have lived in great numbers.
[51:23.420 --> 51:29.320]  What we're doing, that's just a way of hiding the fact that we're cowering to the terrorists.
[51:29.660 --> 51:35.020]  I believe we should build taller and perhaps better construction.
[51:35.020 --> 51:36.740]  We're being told that it's safe.
[51:36.880 --> 51:40.820]  And if that is true, if they are in fact safe, then yes, build them taller than ever.
[51:41.100 --> 51:42.620]  But make damn sure they're safe.
[51:42.660 --> 51:44.600]  And if they're not safe, then start getting rid of them.
[51:44.940 --> 51:51.560]  Because that's not something that we should be subjecting people to as that kind of a safety issue.
[51:51.740 --> 51:53.000]  Safe by what standards?
[51:53.760 --> 51:59.260]  Apparently the World Trade Centers were able to survive an impact from the planes of the time.
[51:59.380 --> 52:00.320]  Of the time, yes.
[52:00.760 --> 52:04.640]  So I guess its time was not the present time.
[52:04.740 --> 52:05.180]  Well, no.
[52:05.320 --> 52:09.200]  If we build new towers today, what standards of safety shall we apply?
[52:09.880 --> 52:10.460]  I don't know.
[52:10.780 --> 52:13.120]  Ability to withstand the impact of a plane 20 years from now.
[52:13.140 --> 52:13.620]  I don't know.
[52:13.740 --> 52:14.200]  I'm not sure.
[52:14.280 --> 52:14.940]  I'm not an architect.
[52:15.040 --> 52:15.740]  I don't know the answer to that.
[52:15.920 --> 52:16.140]  I don't think that's possible.
[52:16.140 --> 52:18.380]  Yeah, well, then maybe we shouldn't be building them then.
[52:18.640 --> 52:22.860]  If it's not safe, if it can't withstand something like that, this could happen by accident too, you know.
[52:23.360 --> 52:24.300]  It's quite possible.
[52:24.840 --> 52:30.200]  Well, there are a lot of buildings in San Francisco that can't withstand earthquakes, but we still managed to bring them higher.
[52:30.360 --> 52:31.160]  I mean, that's not a...
[52:31.160 --> 52:34.140]  I think all buildings in San Francisco are built to withstand earthquakes.
[52:34.440 --> 52:34.760]  All new ones.
[52:34.760 --> 52:35.000]  All new ones?
[52:35.340 --> 52:36.320]  How high are we talking?
[52:36.740 --> 52:37.060]  Anyway...
[52:37.060 --> 52:37.180]  Never mind.
[52:37.180 --> 52:42.780]  If we have any chance of taking a phone call here, I just want to read this quick letter, and then hopefully we'll take some phone calls.
[52:43.760 --> 52:49.180]  This person wanted to do some testing in hacker style of airline security.
[52:49.400 --> 52:53.220]  He wrote us a letter before he left, and he wrote us a letter after we got back, and listen to what he said.
[52:53.340 --> 52:54.400]  The man who keeps promises?
[52:54.540 --> 52:57.320]  I was in Vegas for my friend's wedding, leaving Minneapolis-St.
[52:57.460 --> 52:58.480]  Paul International Airport.
[52:58.500 --> 53:00.600]  I had some Altoids and brought them with me.
[53:00.780 --> 53:01.740]  You see where this is going.
[53:02.300 --> 53:05.900]  For another piece of the experiment, I had my usual pair of nail clippers in my other pants pocket.
[53:06.100 --> 53:09.220]  I went through the metal detectors and beeped, so they ran the wand over me.
[53:09.300 --> 53:16.000]  They confiscated my deadly nail clippers and let me keep the Altoids tin without looking in it.
[53:16.920 --> 53:18.000]  Now what do we do, folks?
[53:18.140 --> 53:18.380]  What do we do?
[53:18.500 --> 53:21.200]  We say these people are not doing their jobs?
[53:21.460 --> 53:21.700]  No.
[53:22.080 --> 53:26.300]  Do we say that it's just going to be physically impossible to prevent people from bringing things onto airplanes?
[53:26.300 --> 53:28.840]  We have to face facts because it's not working.
[53:29.040 --> 53:30.700]  Whatever we think it is, it's not working.
[53:30.700 --> 53:34.500]  This is an example of the security is not there to actually increase security.
[53:34.700 --> 53:39.880]  The actual real genuine security that's being provided by this kind of thing is minimal.
[53:40.060 --> 53:45.100]  But it makes people feel good to see that the guy in front of you online got his nail clippers taken away.
[53:45.100 --> 53:46.300]  Right, it's all smoke and mirrors.
[53:46.540 --> 53:46.660]  Exactly.
[53:46.900 --> 53:49.180]  It should be exposed as such.
[53:49.200 --> 53:51.140]  I think the audience at this show can handle that.
[53:52.300 --> 53:54.880]  212-968-0500 is our phone number.
[53:54.960 --> 53:55.440]  Let's take a phone call.
[53:55.520 --> 53:55.780]  Good evening.
[53:55.900 --> 53:56.240]  You're on the air.
[53:56.520 --> 53:57.200]  Yes, hello.
[53:57.520 --> 53:59.260]  I'm Marilyn from the Bronx.
[53:59.260 --> 54:05.660]  And I'm calling to say that I think that the buildings that...
[54:05.660 --> 54:07.980]  I should say that I'm 71.
[54:07.980 --> 54:20.300]  I worked in the area years ago when the two buildings that preceded the trade towers were there with a whole array of little businesses in the vicinity.
[54:20.300 --> 54:41.600]  The architecture of those two buildings fitted in with that area, the Woolworth Building and all the other business buildings, and also fitted in with the landmark buildings around the churches like St. Peter's on Barclay Street and St. Paul's and others.
[54:41.600 --> 54:53.740]  And I should think that something that was more in character with the type of architecture that is down there.
[54:53.860 --> 54:55.680]  Instead of destroying...
[54:55.680 --> 54:56.680]  When I say destroy...
[54:56.680 --> 55:01.640]  I mean demolished like the Singer Building, which you can find in architectural guides.
[55:01.640 --> 55:04.660]  I've always been interested in the architectural history.
[55:05.520 --> 55:05.800]  Yeah.
[55:05.980 --> 55:08.620]  So that is what I would suggest.
[55:08.780 --> 55:16.000]  I always thought that those buildings stood out like sore thumbs, that they were sort of ugly.
[55:16.200 --> 55:17.480]  A lot of people would agree with that.
[55:17.560 --> 55:18.860]  A lot of people said the same thing.
[55:18.980 --> 55:20.040]  A lot of people said that...
[55:20.040 --> 55:33.400]  A lot of people said that there were slides from years ago, 35 millimeters, as a hiker coming across the Hudson from the hike where we took the Erie Railroad upstate.
[55:33.400 --> 55:40.800]  At sunset, coming across the Hudson with an array of buildings that existed then.
[55:40.800 --> 55:48.500]  I have this on September 12, 1954, 5-4.
[55:48.740 --> 55:50.480]  It's 6-something in the evening.
[55:50.700 --> 55:53.380]  Two slides taken two minutes apart.
[55:53.380 --> 56:09.300]  Also, slides taken from Vesey Street facing St. Paul's Chapel, showing those two buildings, which had a kind of decoration.
[56:09.500 --> 56:10.820]  I forget the architect's name.
[56:11.240 --> 56:12.240]  They were...
[56:12.240 --> 56:17.180]  You know, they fitted in with the architecture.
[56:17.560 --> 56:17.680]  Right.
[56:17.860 --> 56:19.000]  I see the point.
[56:19.100 --> 56:22.380]  Unfortunately, we're going to have to stop there because we have to take another phone call.
[56:22.380 --> 56:23.860]  But thanks for the input.
[56:24.080 --> 56:28.680]  I do agree that it should be something a bit more architecturally pleasing to the eye.
[56:28.780 --> 56:32.600]  And I did hear a lot of complaints about those particular buildings.
[56:32.600 --> 56:35.560]  I understand big glass box is ugly, but is it really the time to...
[56:35.560 --> 56:37.120]  I really don't want to get into a debate about it.
[56:37.180 --> 56:38.920]  It's just a question to pose to the audience.
[56:39.040 --> 56:43.380]  Is it really the time to try and change how the city looks based upon the...
[56:43.380 --> 56:52.160]  Are you going to take advantage of the fact that this horrendous act was committed in order to say, you know, well, since the ground is clear, let's build something else?
[56:52.380 --> 56:53.160]  Is that really appropriate?
[56:54.040 --> 56:54.280]  Good evening.
[56:54.400 --> 56:54.700]  You're on the air.
[56:55.960 --> 56:56.280]  Yes.
[56:56.400 --> 56:57.300]  When the trade center...
[56:57.800 --> 56:58.120]  Sorry.
[56:58.220 --> 56:58.460]  Good evening.
[56:58.520 --> 56:58.920]  You're on the air.
[56:59.780 --> 57:00.400]  Oh, Emmanuel.
[57:00.700 --> 57:00.860]  Yes.
[57:01.140 --> 57:01.460]  Quickly.
[57:01.720 --> 57:02.020]  Enjoy your program.
[57:02.020 --> 57:02.760]  About 30 seconds.
[57:02.960 --> 57:03.160]  Okay.
[57:03.520 --> 57:06.980]  I don't agree with building, rebuilding the buildings as they were.
[57:07.080 --> 57:09.380]  These really tall buildings are inherently unsafe.
[57:09.780 --> 57:12.400]  And nothing really that tall should be built, in my opinion.
[57:12.600 --> 57:13.600]  There's no way to make them safe.
[57:13.780 --> 57:13.960]  Okay.
[57:14.020 --> 57:16.860]  If that is true, then we have to deal with the already tall buildings that exist.
[57:17.000 --> 57:17.840]  We have to reach a conclusion.
[57:17.960 --> 57:19.360]  Well, there aren't any that tall except the Empire State.
[57:19.500 --> 57:19.860]  Yeah.
[57:19.900 --> 57:21.040]  We have one a few blocks up.
[57:21.180 --> 57:22.120]  We have the Sears Tower.
[57:22.240 --> 57:23.020]  We have a bunch everywhere.
[57:23.200 --> 57:24.820]  We have buildings in Boston that are tall.
[57:25.020 --> 57:25.780]  The towers in Malaysia.
[57:25.780 --> 57:26.600]  Now, the other thing...
[57:26.600 --> 57:28.100]  You made a suggestion before.
[57:28.220 --> 57:31.860]  I'd really like to affirm that and agree with it.
[57:31.880 --> 57:35.460]  You said you might turn down Isaac's mic.
[57:35.720 --> 57:37.160]  I really think you should do that.
[57:37.240 --> 57:38.520]  Keep his mic down all the time.
[57:38.980 --> 57:44.860]  Well, you see, that would be using the same tactics that we criticize, and I don't think that would be right.
[57:45.500 --> 57:50.800]  In any event, that's all the time we have for calls, and that's why we really do go through the hours fast these days.
[57:50.900 --> 57:51.420]  We need more time.
[57:51.520 --> 57:52.360]  We do need more time.
[57:52.480 --> 57:54.320]  We need to slow down the clock or something like that.
[57:54.320 --> 57:59.980]  So here's an interesting thing that we've put up, and I haven't seen this anyplace.
[58:00.220 --> 58:04.080]  A lot of people lost their lives a month ago, only a couple blocks away from here.
[58:04.940 --> 58:10.800]  And there are no real places where you can look over the names of those people.
[58:11.180 --> 58:14.880]  I've seen some partial lists of airline manifests and things like that.
[58:15.260 --> 58:21.860]  But the list is out there, but it's not being put up, so you can actually look at the names of the people and see what they did.
[58:22.600 --> 58:27.840]  We've obtained that list as a site now called WhatWereTheirNames.com.
[58:28.800 --> 58:34.580]  And if you go there, you will be able to see a list of the people as of today that have been put up there.
[58:34.920 --> 58:38.200]  And it's just a way of paying tribute to those people who lost their lives.
[58:39.400 --> 58:43.720]  With that, we're going to go for tonight, but we'll be back again next week with another program.
[58:44.120 --> 58:46.420]  And I'm sure we'll have a lot more to talk about then.
[58:46.960 --> 58:47.480]  Good night.
[58:47.480 --> 58:47.520]  Good night.
[58:51.960 --> 58:52.720]  Good night.
[58:52.720 --> 58:57.000]  Have you heard of a ship called the Good Reuben James?
[58:57.440 --> 59:01.880]  Man by heart, fighting man, both of honor and of fame.
[59:02.220 --> 59:11.200]  She flew the stars and stripes of the land of the free, but tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea.
[59:12.100 --> 59:14.880]  Tell me, what were their names?
[59:14.980 --> 59:17.180]  Tell me, what were their names?
[59:28.760 --> 59:30.460]  Donned good, Reuben James.
[59:31.560 --> 59:35.720]  One hundred men went down to their dark, watery grave.
[59:36.160 --> 59:40.140]  When that good ship went down, only forty-four was saved.
[59:40.560 --> 59:48.780]  It was the last day of October that they saved forty-four from the cold, icy waters by the cold, Iceland shore.
[59:49.720 --> 59:52.200]  Tell me, what were their names?
[59:52.400 --> 59:53.300]  Tell me, what were
[01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:05.230]  their friends?
[01:00:05.590 --> 01:00:07.030]  Donned good, Reuben James.
[01:00:08.090 --> 01:00:16.730]  It was there in the dark of that uncertain night that they watched for the U-boat and waited for the fight.
[01:00:16.890 --> 01:00:19.050]  Then the wine and the rock...
[01:00:19.050 --> 01:00:25.770]  Off the Hook was brought to you live with a portion of the recording over a listener-sponsored non-commercial Pacifica Radio in New York City.
[01:00:26.310 --> 01:00:28.610]  Up next...
[01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:35.940]  The Palestinian reality?
[01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:38.900]  What's really happening in the Muslim lands?
[01:00:39.340 --> 01:00:41.840]  A new memoir by Professor Leila Ahmed?
[01:00:42.460 --> 01:00:45.860]  Or Muslim political candidates in the USA?
[01:00:46.520 --> 01:00:54.040]  These and more are questions you can hear discussed on Tahrir, WBAI's magazine of the Arab Muslim community.
[01:00:54.720 --> 01:01:03.200]  Marhaba, I'm Barbara Numeri-Aziz, and I'd like you to join me and our Tahrir staff every Tuesday night at nine o'clock.
[01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:06.040]  That's Tuesdays from nine to ten p.m.
[01:01:06.380 --> 01:01:12.000]  here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:15.800]  You're sure to find something new and sometimes controversy.
[01:01:21.620 --> 01:01:23.420]  Up next at nine p.m.
[01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:24.520]  at ten p.m.
[01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:31.140]  Enough said news and views from the comic book, comic creation, comic reading community.
[01:01:31.680 --> 01:01:32.740]  At 11 p.m.
[01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:36.440]  this evening, a rebroadcast of the WBAI evening news.
[01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:41.900]  At 12 midnight, more Shaw Orthodox Radio Crusade.
[01:01:43.520 --> 01:01:46.040]  And, of course, there will be much, much more.
[01:01:46.220 --> 01:01:49.540]  I see at 1.30 in the morning, we have Weaponry with Tom Whisker.
[01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:57.800]  At 3.30 in the a.m., Mass Backwards with Max Schmied featuring Gene Shepard at 5 a.m.
[01:01:57.800 --> 01:01:58.880]  5 to 6 a.m.
[01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:00.240]  That 6 brings us around to...
[01:02:01.520 --> 01:02:02.460]  Here we go.
[01:02:03.180 --> 01:02:03.740]  Sunrise!
[01:02:04.680 --> 01:02:05.460]  Stand by.