[00:01.140 --> 00:04.360]  I'm almost out of batteries.
[00:04.980 --> 00:11.440]  You've got sweat much too small, poking at your navel.
[00:12.960 --> 00:15.200]  Point your finger too.
[00:16.700 --> 00:23.380]  You say your lips don't even stick together when the dust comes up.
[00:25.760 --> 00:28.120]  Throwing across the plains.
[00:29.100 --> 00:32.640]  Pictures are falling in and out of their frames.
[00:33.100 --> 00:34.980]  Good and evil.
[00:35.340 --> 00:36.960]  Good and evil.
[00:37.340 --> 00:40.360]  They turn loose and they turn into people.
[00:43.490 --> 00:44.210]  Toast.
[01:05.760 --> 01:07.160]  Somewhere...
[01:09.280 --> 01:10.880]  Between day...
[01:11.240 --> 01:13.040]  And night...
[01:13.590 --> 01:16.000]  Between day...
[01:16.000 --> 01:16.970]  And night...
[01:16.970 --> 01:18.630]  Between reality...
[01:18.630 --> 01:20.590]  And imagination...
[01:23.580 --> 01:25.880]  And Thursday mornings...
[01:58.050 --> 01:59.730]  Thursday mornings...
[01:59.730 --> 02:02.550]  3.30 till 6 a.m.
[02:03.850 --> 02:05.250]  Music...
[02:05.250 --> 02:06.050]  Talk...
[02:06.750 --> 02:08.270]  Science Fiction...
[02:10.150 --> 02:11.550]  Life...
[02:11.550 --> 02:13.050]  Science Fiction...
[02:32.510 --> 02:34.050]  You're tuned to High Five.
[02:34.850 --> 02:37.530]  WBAI 99.5 on your FM dial.
[02:38.250 --> 02:38.550]  New York.
[02:38.770 --> 02:39.610]  On Wall Street.
[02:40.290 --> 02:41.850]  Look sharp today, boys.
[02:42.130 --> 02:42.930]  Especially your rookies.
[02:43.150 --> 02:44.030]  The nickname index...
[02:44.030 --> 02:45.170]  We've got 90 points last night.
[02:45.170 --> 02:47.250]  We expect heavy capital buying on the opening.
[02:47.630 --> 02:48.830]  Permits $100,000.
[02:49.110 --> 02:50.210]  Deals and sales...
[02:50.210 --> 02:50.950]  In big booth...
[02:50.950 --> 02:51.690]  In $200,000.
[02:51.970 --> 02:52.350]  For convenience.
[02:52.890 --> 02:54.670]  Get on the horn with your institution...
[02:54.670 --> 02:55.610]  Or a quarter after that.
[02:55.830 --> 02:58.010]  Issue tools are our top priority today.
[02:58.490 --> 02:59.050]  Okay...
[02:59.050 --> 03:00.010]  And it's 8 o'clock.
[03:00.250 --> 03:00.790]  Time...
[03:00.790 --> 03:01.970]  For Off the Hook.
[03:05.810 --> 03:07.650]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[03:08.170 --> 03:10.230]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[03:11.190 --> 03:13.250]  I cut myself while shaving.
[03:13.690 --> 03:15.790]  Now I can't make a cough.
[03:16.630 --> 03:18.630]  We couldn't get much worse.
[03:19.270 --> 03:21.210]  But if they could, they would.
[03:21.490 --> 03:24.130]  Bundedly bombed for the best, expect the worst.
[03:24.730 --> 03:26.670]  I hope that's understood.
[03:27.010 --> 03:27.850]  Bundedly bombed!
[04:09.240 --> 04:10.760]  And the program is Off the Hook.
[04:11.180 --> 04:14.780]  It's Manuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday evening.
[04:15.780 --> 04:17.020]  Yeah, we're still here.
[04:18.420 --> 04:20.860]  It takes a lot to bring us down.
[04:21.060 --> 04:23.560]  And it doesn't matter that the whole world is falling apart.
[04:23.560 --> 04:28.160]  And we see literally the deterioration on a day-to-day basis.
[04:28.160 --> 04:29.780]  It takes more than that.
[04:29.960 --> 04:31.980]  You might say losing a major lawsuit.
[04:32.100 --> 04:33.620]  Well, yeah, it takes more than that too.
[04:33.780 --> 04:35.900]  Because that's not going to get us down either.
[04:37.320 --> 04:38.960]  Yeah, yeah, we lost.
[04:40.040 --> 04:40.860]  Are you surprised, Mike?
[04:42.100 --> 04:42.660]  I don't know.
[04:42.780 --> 04:43.340]  It's hard to...
[04:43.820 --> 04:44.960]  It was hard to say.
[04:45.100 --> 04:46.280]  Now, of course, we know the answer.
[04:47.200 --> 04:47.560]  But...
[04:47.560 --> 04:48.220]  Well...
[04:48.220 --> 04:50.100]  I'm obviously upset.
[04:50.340 --> 04:52.640]  If I said we won, you'd be surprised, wouldn't you?
[04:53.060 --> 04:53.980]  I know I would be.
[04:54.180 --> 04:54.640]  I suppose.
[04:54.840 --> 04:55.900]  Yeah, I mean...
[04:55.900 --> 04:58.640]  I'm guessing that's not used to winning lawsuits, but...
[04:59.460 --> 05:00.880]  I just kind of...
[05:01.260 --> 05:02.840]  I was surprised it took so long.
[05:02.840 --> 05:06.900]  I almost expected them to come out with a ruling the same day that pretty much mirrored what...
[05:08.080 --> 05:13.180]  what Judge Kaplan said back in August of 2000 concerning the whole DVD case.
[05:13.340 --> 05:16.160]  But, no, it took them a better part of a year.
[05:16.480 --> 05:17.760]  It took them all for six months, didn't it?
[05:18.140 --> 05:19.420]  Well, it was 70 pages.
[05:20.100 --> 05:21.160]  Yeah, 70-page decision.
[05:21.300 --> 05:22.940]  And, you know, there are things in that decision that...
[05:23.960 --> 05:25.400]  were kind of odd, don't you think?
[05:26.340 --> 05:27.040]  Strange things.
[05:27.480 --> 05:28.520]  Not just the formatting.
[05:29.080 --> 05:32.740]  Yeah, well, the formatting, of course, when we first initially got it, it was a very bad scan.
[05:32.900 --> 05:38.920]  But there were people so hungry for information that they were willing to read a document that had every other letter defective in some way.
[05:39.160 --> 05:41.880]  It pretty much went along with the decision, in my opinion.
[05:42.440 --> 05:44.280]  But it might as well have been like that.
[05:45.920 --> 05:49.280]  We're gonna have some EFF people on the line in just a little bit.
[05:49.380 --> 05:52.640]  So we'll be talking about that in a little while.
[05:52.860 --> 05:56.580]  And taking your questions and comments and advice and all kinds of other things like that.
[05:57.000 --> 05:59.620]  Talking about what the next step of this whole case will be.
[06:00.400 --> 06:01.060]  It's interesting.
[06:01.060 --> 06:06.680]  Every few months or so it goes into the papers again and everybody kind of pays attention to it.
[06:06.840 --> 06:09.740]  And, of course, the media gets it completely wrong for the most part.
[06:10.180 --> 06:14.240]  They insist that this is a case about copying DVDs.
[06:14.700 --> 06:23.460]  And as a result of that, we wind up getting all this mail from people after the pieces appear in the newspapers saying, how do I copy DVDs?
[06:23.500 --> 06:29.320]  You know, we never got mail like that before the media got their hands on this story because that's never what the ECSS was about.
[06:29.500 --> 06:30.660]  It was about compatibility issues.
[06:30.760 --> 06:32.820]  It was about running something on a Linux machine.
[06:33.020 --> 06:39.980]  You know, it was about being able to control technology for your own uses rather than be told what to do.
[06:40.080 --> 06:50.920]  I keep hearing so many horror stories of people who go out and buy things only to find they don't work because they're not the right type of person to have it or some bizarre thing like that.
[06:50.920 --> 06:55.160]  You know, you can't plug an old-fashioned TV set into a DVD player.
[06:55.200 --> 06:55.960]  This is what I just heard today.
[06:56.100 --> 07:02.920]  You can't plug an old-fashioned TV into a DVD because you'll get all kinds of macro vision problems and the picture will fade in and out.
[07:03.780 --> 07:07.480]  This is after you buy all the hardware and all the software.
[07:08.360 --> 07:10.660]  And it just doesn't work, you know.
[07:10.980 --> 07:16.080]  It's funny too because DVD players can play things like MP3s, you know.
[07:16.080 --> 07:24.580]  They're willing to do it, but all this software that gets written to restrict you, it really winds up crippling you.
[07:25.580 --> 07:28.000]  You know, people want to watch something from another country.
[07:28.000 --> 07:30.100]  They can't do that because of the region coding.
[07:30.580 --> 07:34.380]  For now, we can listen to music from other countries, but who knows how long that's going to last.
[07:35.540 --> 07:42.660]  And, of course, if you want to make a fair use copy for yourself, such as putting something on DVD...
[07:42.660 --> 07:46.320]  I'm sorry, putting something on VHS, well, good luck.
[07:46.520 --> 07:47.540]  Good luck doing that.
[07:47.780 --> 07:49.380]  But you can buy the VHS.
[07:50.140 --> 07:56.400]  Or, as the appeals court said, you can simply put a camera on the TV set.
[07:56.600 --> 07:58.440]  You can film the TV set.
[07:58.520 --> 08:00.240]  I believe that's what they suggested.
[08:00.480 --> 08:01.940]  Oh, it's getting better and better.
[08:02.160 --> 08:02.340]  Yeah.
[08:02.600 --> 08:04.660]  I actually think that's what Kaplan suggested as well.
[08:05.220 --> 08:08.880]  Anyway, we'll get into that in a little bit in a few minutes.
[08:09.520 --> 08:14.400]  Let's go over some of the advances in humankind over the last week.
[08:14.600 --> 08:16.840]  And you won't find very many of them here, I'll tell you that.
[08:18.620 --> 08:23.020]  Lawmakers are considering whether to give US anti-terrorism experts...
[08:23.020 --> 08:32.240]  I'm sorry, anti-terrorism agents, new police powers to make it easier to obtain special wiretaps and search warrants usually reserved for finding foreign spies.
[08:32.940 --> 08:46.020]  The changes solicited from the Justice Department by House and Senate members working on the intelligence bill that sets the budget for the CIA comes just weeks after Congress approved and President Bush signed powerful new anti-terrorism laws.
[08:47.480 --> 08:48.620]  These are some of the highlights.
[08:48.780 --> 09:00.820]  You can now allow federal agents to secretly request wiretaps, even if details about the target of the surveillance, such as his identity or the location of his phone, aren't known.
[09:01.620 --> 09:03.180]  Makes you wonder how they request it.
[09:03.660 --> 09:04.400]  You know...
[09:04.400 --> 09:05.100]  What did they ask for?
[09:05.980 --> 09:07.340]  Just give me a wiretap?
[09:07.500 --> 09:08.480]  We're not telling you for what?
[09:09.240 --> 09:10.040]  Pretty much.
[09:10.540 --> 09:12.720]  It just gets stranger with every passing day.
[09:13.260 --> 09:18.780]  It also allows agents to make broader demands for most business records as long as the documents were related to an investigation.
[09:19.080 --> 09:20.880]  Of course, they don't have to tell you about the investigation.
[09:20.880 --> 09:23.040]  So they must have to demand whatever they feel like.
[09:24.140 --> 09:26.380]  Also, giving the government up to three days...
[09:26.380 --> 09:27.480]  This is a weird one.
[09:27.980 --> 09:35.220]  Giving the government up to three days to seek a judge's approval for warrants after investigators conduct a search or wiretap in emergencies.
[09:35.840 --> 09:39.580]  Of course, everything today is an emergency, so we can just take those words right away.
[09:40.460 --> 09:44.040]  But three days to get a judge's approval for something you've already done.
[09:44.040 --> 09:45.740]  What if he doesn't approve it?
[09:45.880 --> 09:46.460]  I don't know.
[09:46.580 --> 09:47.200]  What are you supposed to do?
[09:47.280 --> 09:48.600]  Travel back in time and undo it?
[09:49.380 --> 09:56.440]  Right now, the government has to obtain a judge's permission after 24 hours of doing what they want permission for.
[09:58.300 --> 09:59.100]  It's funny.
[09:59.100 --> 10:00.960]  It's just one big joke.
[10:01.140 --> 10:03.300]  I mean, you know, there's just no other way you can approach this.
[10:04.260 --> 10:15.540]  A fourth proposed change, which lawmakers already have rejected, but they're going to try again, would have permitted the United States to invoke a powerful anti-espionage law even in cases against individual foreigners.
[10:15.780 --> 10:20.740]  That law is currently reserved for cases against people working as spies for foreign governments or other foreign organizations.
[10:21.940 --> 10:25.640]  You just say the word foreign enough times, and people will pretty much pass anything.
[10:25.880 --> 10:26.920]  Don't you have any good news?
[10:27.060 --> 10:27.940]  No, no good news.
[10:29.260 --> 10:34.020]  Actually, no, we have some nice letters and things like that, but not much in the way of good news.
[10:34.540 --> 10:44.180]  The FBI is going to new lengths to be sure it can eavesdrop on high-tech communications, secretly building Magic Lantern software that's rare to monitor computer use.
[10:44.320 --> 10:47.920]  I'm sure we've heard about that in weeks past.
[10:49.080 --> 10:50.240]  Magic Lantern.
[10:50.640 --> 10:52.140]  That's the newest.
[10:52.220 --> 10:54.140]  That's the newest name that they're giving things.
[10:55.480 --> 11:01.000]  And then we have the Federal Patriot Act, which is turning retailers into spies against customers.
[11:01.540 --> 11:02.340]  That's right.
[11:02.440 --> 11:10.580]  Ordinary businesses from bicycle shops to bookstores to bowling alleys are being pressed into service on the home front in the war on terrorism.
[11:10.840 --> 11:13.500]  Under the USA Patriot Act...
[11:13.500 --> 11:15.280]  Is that what it was called?
[11:15.940 --> 11:16.460]  Yeah.
[11:16.800 --> 11:16.960]  Okay.
[11:17.340 --> 11:17.740]  All right.
[11:18.240 --> 11:28.620]  Signed into law by President Bush late last month, they soon will be required to monitor their customers and report, quote, suspicious transactions, unquote, to the Treasury Department.
[11:29.640 --> 11:31.980]  What do bowling alleys know besides my shoe size?
[11:32.240 --> 11:33.660]  Well, you have to give them...
[11:33.660 --> 11:34.180]  I don't know.
[11:35.300 --> 11:40.600]  I'm not quite sure what kind of suspicious transaction you could do in a bowling alley, but I'm sure one of our listeners will attempt to do that.
[11:42.240 --> 11:45.000]  Buried in the more than 300 pages of the new law...
[11:45.000 --> 11:48.540]  It's great how we're finding what's buried in the law weeks after it's been passed.
[11:49.040 --> 11:58.580]  A provision that any person engaged in a trade or business has to file a government report if a customer spends $10,000 or more in cash.
[11:59.320 --> 12:02.980]  What kind of bowling alley would you pay more than $10,000 in cash?
[12:02.980 --> 12:04.740]  That is morally suspicious.
[12:05.020 --> 12:07.220]  Well, actually, it's not suspicious.
[12:07.360 --> 12:07.720]  And you know why?
[12:07.720 --> 12:12.760]  Because the threshold is cumulative and applies to multiple purchases if they're somehow related.
[12:13.100 --> 12:17.280]  So, say, three $4,000 pieces of furniture, that might trigger a filing.
[12:17.460 --> 12:19.960]  Or how much does it cost to go bowling these days?
[12:20.400 --> 12:21.120]  I don't know.
[12:21.260 --> 12:25.380]  Well, a thousand games of going bowling over the years, you've got to file.
[12:25.820 --> 12:27.300]  How do they know it's the same person?
[12:27.620 --> 12:28.320]  I don't know.
[12:28.460 --> 12:28.860]  I don't know.
[12:30.260 --> 12:35.580]  I mean, you know, the guy I buy the paper from, over the years I've probably spent $10,000 in cash.
[12:35.680 --> 12:36.660]  Does he have to report me now?
[12:36.660 --> 12:38.000]  It's all related.
[12:38.560 --> 12:49.340]  Until now, only banks, thrifts, and credit unions have been required to report cash transactions to the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network under the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970.
[12:49.900 --> 12:55.260]  A handful of other businesses, including car dealers and pawnbrokers, have to file similar reports with the IRS.
[12:56.980 --> 12:59.380]  According to Joe Rubin, chief lobbyist for the U.S.
[12:59.640 --> 13:03.980]  Chamber of Commerce, this is a big deal and a big change for the vast majority of American businesses.
[13:04.440 --> 13:06.960]  But I don't think anybody realizes it's happened.
[13:08.060 --> 13:09.660]  How do you feel better knowing that?
[13:10.700 --> 13:16.200]  The scope of this thing is huge, said Bert Eli, a financial services consultant in Alexandria, Virginia.
[13:16.380 --> 13:18.400]  It's going to affect literally millions of people.
[13:19.920 --> 13:27.820]  The impact is less clear for consumers, although privacy advocates are uncomfortable with the thought of a massive database that could bring government scrutiny on innocent people.
[13:28.640 --> 13:34.940]  Immigrants and the working poor are the most likely to find themselves in the database, since they tend to use the traditional banking system the least.
[13:37.780 --> 13:38.360]  Unbelievable.
[13:39.040 --> 13:40.960]  So, that's the latest as far as that goes.
[13:41.080 --> 13:46.240]  Now, we had the media reporting a hacker attack.
[13:46.400 --> 13:47.200]  Did you hear about this one?
[13:47.560 --> 13:54.220]  Two websites operated by the United States government were attacked Thursday by a group that threatened violence against Americans.
[13:54.660 --> 13:55.180]  Uh-oh.
[13:55.420 --> 13:57.740]  The hackers vandalized the homepage...
[13:57.740 --> 13:58.420]  I'm reading this.
[13:58.500 --> 13:59.000]  I'm not saying this.
[13:59.080 --> 14:12.400]  The hackers vandalized the homepage of the NOAA Office of High Performance Computing and Communications, which I guess isn't so high performance after all, as well as a web server operated by the National Institute of Health's National Human Genome Research Institute,
[14:13.160 --> 14:20.400]  according to a mirror of the defacements captured by the ALDAS Defacement Archive, which I am not familiar with.
[14:20.980 --> 14:28.480]  Both defaced pages bore the flag of Saudi Arabia and contained titles that read in Urdu, Allah is the greatest of all.
[14:29.020 --> 14:33.860]  At the bottom of the pages was a sentence that read in Urdu, to Americans be prepared to die.
[14:35.620 --> 14:39.580]  The hackers did not identify the name of their group, but signed the pages anonymous.
[14:40.760 --> 14:43.900]  Officials from the two US organizations were not immediately available for comment.
[14:44.060 --> 14:49.380]  Both websites, which were running the Apache web server on the Linux operating system, were unreachable.
[14:50.540 --> 14:57.940]  And in the message at the NIH site, the attackers called themselves Mujahideens and wrote, we are not hacker, we are just cyber terrorists.
[14:58.460 --> 15:00.040]  See, at least they got it right.
[15:00.620 --> 15:01.920]  They know they're not hacking.
[15:02.140 --> 15:05.400]  They know that's not an act of hacking.
[15:05.780 --> 15:09.680]  You know, it's different when you just replace a page and send a message.
[15:09.800 --> 15:11.060]  I don't know if they're cyber terrorists.
[15:11.540 --> 15:13.780]  You know, it's kind of a strange word to use.
[15:14.360 --> 15:15.920]  But at least they know they're not hackers.
[15:16.580 --> 15:22.040]  On the NOAA site, the group threatened the greatest cyber terrorist attack against American government.
[15:23.440 --> 15:24.520]  And separately...
[15:24.520 --> 15:26.100]  If this is it, then we've got nothing to fear.
[15:26.240 --> 15:26.560]  Yeah, really.
[15:27.180 --> 15:35.840]  Separately, a website attacker from a group called World of Hell defaced a server operated by the US Army Engineer Research and Development Center.
[15:39.100 --> 15:44.400]  And it's interesting that they would, that they would go to the genome site.
[15:44.560 --> 15:47.660]  Because that tells you that they're watching American media because that's been in the news lately.
[15:48.200 --> 15:55.800]  You know, anybody can go and paste, you know, things in foreign languages and say, you know, they're from another country and death to America and that kind of thing.
[15:56.300 --> 16:01.360]  Especially if you want to create a perception.
[16:01.800 --> 16:05.160]  And I think that's what the media is just falling straight into.
[16:05.160 --> 16:09.760]  This perception that it's war on the electronic front.
[16:11.520 --> 16:13.280]  Okay, that's more news.
[16:13.340 --> 16:17.120]  But I don't want to get much more depressed than I already am.
[16:18.140 --> 16:20.020]  How about some cheerful news?
[16:20.580 --> 16:21.940]  Introducing the Telezapper.
[16:22.020 --> 16:24.360]  This has been the week of new inventions.
[16:24.520 --> 16:25.600]  You see the new invention unveiled?
[16:26.600 --> 16:28.260]  The not scooter thing?
[16:28.380 --> 16:31.460]  Yeah, it's basically a hand cart that you ride in.
[16:32.580 --> 16:34.440]  I've ridden in hand carts and look like this.
[16:34.440 --> 16:38.020]  And basically, yeah, okay, it's a scooter that you can ride around in.
[16:38.260 --> 16:46.720]  And figure, you know, the biggest invention so far of the 21st century, this has been heralded for at least a year now, as something that's going to change our lives forever.
[16:47.020 --> 16:49.960]  You figure, in this stupid country, the one thing that's going...
[16:49.960 --> 16:52.060]  It's not a cure for world hunger.
[16:52.160 --> 16:53.160]  It's not a cure for cancer.
[16:53.200 --> 16:54.440]  It's not something that will make us smarter.
[16:54.440 --> 16:58.740]  It's something that will make us even lazier, where we don't even have to walk anymore on the sidewalk.
[16:59.000 --> 17:05.380]  We'll simply ride these things back and forth, and annoy people, much like SUVs annoy people on the highways.
[17:05.660 --> 17:09.820]  I'm going to have to deal with these moving hand trucks now with idiots on them.
[17:10.180 --> 17:14.380]  And they're going by at 12 miles an hour while I try to get by on the sidewalk.
[17:14.800 --> 17:15.500]  I don't know.
[17:15.720 --> 17:16.720]  I don't know if there's...
[17:16.720 --> 17:17.820]  They're very expensive, too.
[17:17.820 --> 17:18.980]  And they're $8,000, yeah.
[17:20.480 --> 17:21.120]  We'll see.
[17:21.780 --> 17:27.620]  I predict that I'm going to have a run-in with one of these things in a future show, and I'll be telling you all about it.
[17:28.100 --> 17:40.920]  You know, they took great pains to say yesterday on the advertisement known as Good Morning America, you saw right before a commercial break that this person, one of the co-hosts of the show, ran over somebody's foot.
[17:41.280 --> 17:46.200]  And then later, she made a point of running over her foot and saying, I didn't feel that at all.
[17:46.200 --> 17:48.440]  Well, how do you not feel something running over your foot?
[17:48.540 --> 17:49.340]  That's what I'd like to know.
[17:50.240 --> 17:51.880]  What kind of drug she was pumped up on.
[17:51.980 --> 17:57.400]  But I imagine when something runs over your foot, you're going to feel it no matter, you know, how nice an invention it is.
[17:58.580 --> 17:59.140]  We'll see.
[17:59.300 --> 17:59.660]  We'll see.
[18:00.340 --> 18:01.400]  But there's a better invention.
[18:01.520 --> 18:02.340]  The TeleZapper.
[18:02.540 --> 18:06.060]  The one item everyone has wanted for those unwanted telemarketer calls.
[18:06.760 --> 18:08.200]  This is unbelievable.
[18:11.220 --> 18:12.400]  I'll read you what it says on the webpage.
[18:12.700 --> 18:17.580]  Thank you to the people who just invented an easy way to get rid of annoying telemarketers once and for all.
[18:18.140 --> 18:21.280]  The TeleZapper hooks up to your phone in less than a minute.
[18:21.960 --> 18:24.980]  After that, every time a telemarketer calls the TeleZapper...
[18:26.140 --> 18:27.520]  I'm sorry, there should be a comma there.
[18:27.600 --> 18:35.100]  After that, every time a telemarketer calls, the TeleZapper sends out a tone that tells autodialers your number is disconnected.
[18:36.460 --> 18:39.300]  It traps telemarketers by their own technology.
[18:39.840 --> 18:44.380]  With TeleZapper the calls won't come back, and eventually your number is erased from calling lists forever.
[18:45.880 --> 18:48.280]  This is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever seen in my life.
[18:48.380 --> 18:57.420]  You know, basically what it's doing, it's sending out do-do-do, you know, that little series of tones, which, you know, to some automated machines will say, oh, I guess that number isn't working.
[18:58.320 --> 19:03.280]  If your number falls off the list, it's because eventually people will stop calling you no matter what you do.
[19:03.660 --> 19:10.100]  But more importantly, it's silly because you have to pick up the phone to know it's a telemarketer in the first place.
[19:10.160 --> 19:15.520]  And if you pick up the phone and you're talking to a person, they're going to know when you say do-do-do that you're not really saying it.
[19:16.400 --> 19:22.200]  Well, for $49.95, you can figure that one out and realize that you're not really getting anything out of that.
[19:23.780 --> 19:28.100]  I think this is worse than the telemarketers, but the TeleZapper.
[19:29.320 --> 19:33.860]  Just look it up on a search engine and you'll find information about that.
[19:35.120 --> 19:38.040]  Got a lot of mail last week, including this from a librarian.
[19:39.480 --> 19:44.980]  We were talking about public records and things being destroyed, what used to be public records.
[19:45.340 --> 19:51.640]  I heard the show last week, and as a librarian, feel I must fill you guys in about why librarians would follow orders to destroy resources.
[19:53.260 --> 19:57.580]  Depository libraries do not actually own the materials they receive from the government printing office.
[19:57.960 --> 20:00.080]  They hold them in trust for the taxpayer.
[20:00.360 --> 20:20.560]  They waive all rights to select and deselect GPO documents, which means if, say, NYU library wanted to remove the FDA guide to home canning and preserving, which I'm sure really exists, they would have to find another depository willing to accept the item.
[20:21.360 --> 20:25.980]  These libraries act as government agents to guarantee free access to all government documents.
[20:26.260 --> 20:32.100]  So holding the controversial CD-ROM in question and somehow limiting access to it is strictly forbidden.
[20:33.100 --> 20:39.760]  Keep in mind, any non-depository library or individual that purchased the CD-ROM is free to do whatever they like with it.
[20:39.980 --> 20:47.320]  Since all the documents produced by the GPO are available for purchase to anyone with a checking account, undoubtedly there are libraries that still hold the CD-ROM.
[20:47.320 --> 20:52.900]  The bottom line is that the government is not going to give access to that particular information, but libraries still will.
[20:53.780 --> 20:55.360]  Oh, we'll see if they do.
[20:55.560 --> 20:58.760]  We'll see if there are libraries out there where you can still find out where dams are.
[20:58.860 --> 21:05.440]  I'm told that you can simply look things up like this in Google and various other search engines.
[21:07.140 --> 21:14.720]  This person said that the government may be trying to keep you from finding nuclear power plants, but by making a simple Google search, I found the location of every nuclear power plant in the world.
[21:14.720 --> 21:18.980]  Of course, he neglected to tell us what the string he entered was.
[21:19.200 --> 21:23.140]  I'm sure Greenpeace or somebody has compiled the list.
[21:23.340 --> 21:24.240]  There's nobody else.
[21:24.840 --> 21:30.500]  Yeah, I'm sure they're being accused of cavorting with terrorists now for having that public information.
[21:32.480 --> 21:33.520]  Let's see, what else?
[21:34.680 --> 21:39.460]  This week I heard you mention an inexpensive prepaid phone card but didn't accurately hear the name of the rates.
[21:41.860 --> 21:47.940]  Well, it was, I think, 3.5 cents a minute and I think it was AT&T, but it was bought at one of those price clubs.
[21:48.100 --> 21:49.680]  So that's where you get the really low rates.
[21:50.500 --> 21:52.540]  At least so far, it seems to be still working.
[21:54.440 --> 22:00.940]  A lot of people wrote in about the problem the guy was having last week with VCRs.
[22:00.940 --> 22:01.440]  Right.
[22:02.340 --> 22:02.700]  Remember...
[22:02.700 --> 22:07.760]  He wanted to record the sound on the scrambled channel.
[22:07.940 --> 22:08.280]  That's right.
[22:10.000 --> 22:14.160]  And unfortunately, with all the new VCRs these days, you can't really do that.
[22:16.640 --> 22:17.880]  Okay, where did I put that?
[22:18.280 --> 22:19.080]  Ah, yes, here we go.
[22:19.240 --> 22:27.920]  The guy that wanted to record sound only on a VCR while watching a different channel, his problem is many VCRs won't bother recording if all they see is a scrambled channel or even a weak, snowy signal.
[22:27.920 --> 22:31.420]  Well, he needs to find an old VCR that doesn't do that signal checking.
[22:32.020 --> 22:33.280]  Again, old technology.
[22:35.440 --> 22:36.160]  Here's another one.
[22:36.180 --> 22:40.260]  I heard the caller ask about which VCR will not blank out scrambled channels with a blue screen.
[22:40.380 --> 22:46.920]  The Gold Star BD900ZM VCR I bought at Walmart in Toronto in mid-July doesn't blank out anything.
[22:47.180 --> 22:51.660]  It was about $100 Canadian, which means it's about $63 American.
[22:54.180 --> 23:03.360]  And finally, on the latest off the hook, a caller said that he wanted a way to record and play back sound on cable channels for which his VCR showed a blue screen because they were not being properly received.
[23:04.040 --> 23:08.660]  I knew that I could turn off the blue screen feature of my VCR and I experimented to see if this lets you hear the sound.
[23:08.800 --> 23:12.500]  I didn't connect the cable directly to my VCR without the cable box to test this.
[23:12.600 --> 23:16.860]  Instead, I tuned the VCR channel to something other than three while receiving a cable channel.
[23:16.860 --> 23:23.020]  This triggers the blue screen and it turns out the sound is still there when you do this, but it's normally blocked out so you can't hear it.
[23:23.320 --> 23:26.720]  The VCR I use is a Panasonic PV8451.
[23:26.920 --> 23:32.800]  To turn off the blue screen feature, I selected Noisy Channel Blue Back in the Setup VCR menu.
[23:32.940 --> 23:33.800]  What a great function.
[23:33.940 --> 23:35.100]  Noisy Channel Blue Back.
[23:36.880 --> 23:39.900]  And you get to the Setup VCR from the Action menu.
[23:40.060 --> 23:43.880]  When the blue screen is enabled, you don't get any sound on channels when you can't see the picture.
[23:44.420 --> 23:51.020]  Note that this is a feature of playback, not the input to the recording, so you can playback without a blue screen even if you had it on when you recorded.
[23:51.780 --> 24:01.760]  When the blue screen is disabled, normally you still don't get any sound, but I discovered that when I'm accessing the VCR's on-screen menus, the sound will then play when the blue screen feature is off.
[24:01.880 --> 24:03.860]  When you leave the menus, it falls silent again.
[24:03.980 --> 24:04.820]  That's pretty odd.
[24:05.360 --> 24:17.680]  So if things work the same on scrambled channels as I did in my experiment, then on a VCR that works the way mine does, you should be able to record a scrambled channel, then deactivate Noisy Channel Blue Back, start playing the recording, then press a menu button,
[24:17.820 --> 24:20.300]  and hear the sound from the scrambled channel.
[24:21.920 --> 24:22.640]  Simple, right?
[24:22.880 --> 24:23.360]  Of course.
[24:23.480 --> 24:23.840]  No problem.
[24:23.920 --> 24:24.940]  Why did the guy want to do this again?
[24:25.120 --> 24:25.780]  Do you have any idea?
[24:26.760 --> 24:27.480]  I don't know.
[24:27.660 --> 24:28.540]  Larry King, I think.
[24:29.460 --> 24:33.940]  Okay, well, hopefully we solved that little dilemma.
[24:34.220 --> 24:36.620]  All right, we're going to get our guests on the phone.
[24:37.620 --> 24:40.100]  So in the meantime, I'm just going to hand things over.
[24:40.100 --> 24:41.280]  We'll be back in a minute.
[25:06.660 --> 25:16.360]  And this is
[25:23.980 --> 25:24.100]  the second one.
[25:24.140 --> 25:31.540]  We are scaring the nation with death.
[25:32.160 --> 25:34.460]  Guns and ammunition.
[25:35.840 --> 25:42.160]  From genocide to revelations, yeah.
[25:42.160 --> 25:45.180]  The next generation.
[25:51.140 --> 25:53.840]  All the crimes committed.
[25:55.240 --> 25:57.460]  Day by day.
[25:58.380 --> 26:01.780]  No one tried to stop it.
[26:01.780 --> 26:04.020]  All
[26:07.640 --> 26:09.500]  the peacemakers.
[26:10.040 --> 26:12.880]  Turn war officers.
[26:14.660 --> 26:17.290]  Hear what I say.
[26:17.290 --> 26:21.360]  Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
[26:21.560 --> 26:25.140]  Police and thieves in the street.
[26:26.340 --> 26:28.020]  Oh, yeah.
[26:29.260 --> 26:32.290]  Fight of the nation with death.
[26:33.720 --> 26:35.360]  Guns and ammunition.
[26:35.360 --> 26:40.360]  Police and thieves in the street.
[26:41.400 --> 26:43.160]  Oh, yeah.
[26:44.920 --> 26:47.500]  Scaring the nation with death.
[26:48.980 --> 26:50.420]  Guns and ammunition.
[26:50.420 --> 26:50.940]  Guns and ammunition.
[26:56.880 --> 27:12.630]  Guns and ammunition.
[27:26.840 --> 27:29.820]  Genault in young adult.
[27:29.820 --> 27:50.400]  No one tried to stop it in any way All the peacemakers turned the war off his head Hear what I say Hey!
[27:52.780 --> 27:56.380]  Police and thieves in the street
[28:23.600 --> 28:26.100]  And we're back with Off The Hook.
[28:27.580 --> 28:34.380]  We have joining us on the phone, Robin Gross and Cindy Cohn from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[28:34.480 --> 28:35.100]  Are you both with us?
[28:35.580 --> 28:36.300]  I am here.
[28:36.420 --> 28:36.540]  Hi.
[28:36.740 --> 28:36.980]  Great.
[28:37.160 --> 28:37.260]  Okay.
[28:37.360 --> 28:40.260]  It was a touch and go there for a second with the crazy phones we have here.
[28:41.460 --> 28:46.960]  Well, it's been an eventful week as far as our case goes.
[28:48.040 --> 28:59.120]  Perhaps one of you would best sum up, without resorting to too much nasty language, what the appeals court concluded as far as our appeal goes.
[28:59.960 --> 29:06.700]  Well, the appeals court affirmed the lower court, meaning that they essentially rejected our appeal.
[29:06.700 --> 29:12.760]  Well, it's a long opinion, and there are a few very good things in there for us.
[29:13.340 --> 29:17.400]  There is a ringing endorsement of computer programs as protected expression.
[29:18.340 --> 29:22.680]  But unfortunately, what the right hand giveth, the left hand taketh away.
[29:22.680 --> 29:41.540]  And after proclaiming computer programs as protected expression and recognizing that what 2600 Magazine was doing was protected speech, the court turned around and said, but because this speech could be misused by people and because the Internet is such an efficient way for people to get information,
[29:41.540 --> 29:43.540]  we're going to ban this speech.
[29:43.540 --> 29:45.320]  And that's okay under the Constitution.
[29:45.980 --> 29:53.980]  See, that's the part I could not follow, because in one breath they say that it is protected speech, but we're not going to protect this speech.
[29:54.100 --> 29:56.020]  What logic do you think they used?
[29:57.040 --> 30:05.060]  Well, I mean, I don't think it's particularly good logic, and there's not a lot of analysis in that part of the decision.
[30:05.160 --> 30:17.260]  I think that they essentially were saying that there is speech here, but what the government's trying to protect against isn't the speech part of the computer program.
[30:17.260 --> 30:20.120]  It's the functional part of the computer program.
[30:20.460 --> 30:31.260]  And since there's no way to separate the two, we're just going to have to ban the speech part too in order to prevent people from misusing the functional part.
[30:32.620 --> 30:34.400]  It doesn't make... I apologize.
[30:34.520 --> 30:37.280]  I'm not being very clear in explaining it, because it doesn't make much sense to me either.
[30:37.400 --> 30:38.980]  It doesn't make much sense to me either.
[30:39.160 --> 30:43.540]  And everybody who's written to us so far seems to have questions about that.
[30:43.580 --> 30:48.720]  It's very frustrating, because I can't get inside their heads and understand what they were thinking.
[30:48.940 --> 31:03.520]  There is a general doctrine in First Amendment law that says that if the government's trying to do one thing, and as part of doing... really legitimately trying to do one thing, let's say they're trying to do zoning, and the zoning says, well, you can only have buildings that are two stories high,
[31:03.520 --> 31:06.120]  you know, in this section of the town.
[31:07.480 --> 31:13.140]  And you go in and you say, look, I want to build a billboard here, and I want it to be four stories high.
[31:13.140 --> 31:16.180]  The government can turn to you and say, look, no way.
[31:16.180 --> 31:18.740]  You know, you can't build a four-story billboard here.
[31:18.840 --> 31:31.460]  And the fact that that's going to impact your speech, because you're not going to be able to say what you want to say four stories high, isn't seen to be a difficult First Amendment problem, because what the government's trying to do here isn't related to trying to squelch your speech.
[31:31.460 --> 31:33.920]  It's related to just legitimate zoning purposes.
[31:34.420 --> 31:40.120]  That's the doctrine that the court tried to squeeze 2600 into.
[31:40.460 --> 31:48.000]  I don't think it fits very well, but that's what they were trying to say, is that really the damage to speech here is not direct damage.
[31:48.000 --> 31:55.700]  It's collateral damage to, you know, a legitimate government purpose, and that's okay under the law.
[31:55.820 --> 32:06.680]  Would that imply that it's okay to exercise a speech in another manner, not the four-foot billboard, and not, you know, an actual listing of the code on our site, but perhaps some other way?
[32:06.960 --> 32:22.680]  Well, that's the part that I find problematic, because normally when you do this kind of analysis, you do exactly what you're saying, Manny, which is you say, well, you know, are there alternate ways that someone can get this speech out there?
[32:22.860 --> 32:28.120]  You know, you're not squelching the speech entirely because you could just do a two-story billboard, or you could do something else.
[32:28.140 --> 32:34.040]  And so the fit between the government's purpose and the way that they're doing it is a pretty good fit.
[32:34.920 --> 32:48.280]  And the court here essentially in one short sentence said, well, 2600 hasn't shown us any way that they could get the ideas of DCSS out there without also giving the functionality, so therefore it's okay to ban it.
[32:48.860 --> 32:50.500]  I think they're not wrong about that.
[32:50.520 --> 33:00.660]  I think it would be difficult to convey as precisely as you need to when you're a technical magazine what DCSS says without also conveying the functionality.
[33:00.660 --> 33:08.600]  I mean, I don't think it would be a reasonable thing to say, well, you could just talk about DCSS and wouldn't have to provide it.
[33:08.680 --> 33:14.940]  I don't think that you would be providing the level of technical expertise that your readership expects if you did that.
[33:17.240 --> 33:17.740]  Wow.
[33:18.260 --> 33:20.680]  Any other comments on the ruling?
[33:20.920 --> 33:21.240]  Robin?
[33:21.840 --> 33:36.060]  Well, one thing that I found particularly striking about this ruling was how the court seemed to think that Internet speech is somehow worthy of less protection than other kinds of speech because it is so much easier to disseminate things on the Internet.
[33:36.360 --> 33:42.260]  And what's so striking about that is completely contrary to Supreme Court law on this very issue.
[33:42.380 --> 33:43.480]  It was ACLU v.
[33:43.560 --> 33:54.600]  Reno where the Supreme Court said that because the Internet is one of the most mass participatory forms of mediums of expression yet that it is worthy of the highest form of protection.
[33:54.600 --> 33:57.900]  So I don't know how to square those two decisions together.
[33:59.280 --> 34:06.780]  Well, we're certainly going to try in the months ahead however long it takes to bring this thing before whatever other body lies in front of us.
[34:07.680 --> 34:13.980]  And we're just going to keep moving ahead and see just how we can get this clarified.
[34:16.060 --> 34:19.080]  It must be particularly frustrating for you guys.
[34:19.180 --> 34:22.000]  I know it happened the same day as another defeat.
[34:22.200 --> 34:23.500]  Do you want to tell us something about that as well?
[34:23.840 --> 34:29.100]  Yes, it was train wreck week last week at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[34:29.100 --> 34:39.300]  We also had the Edward Felton case dismissed which is another challenge to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act the same provisions that are at issue in 2600.
[34:39.580 --> 34:56.880]  This was the one that your listeners may remember had to do with a Princeton professor who wrote a paper but it included some computer code but mainly it was a paper about the weaknesses in the digital of the protection measures that they're planning to put on CDs.
[34:58.300 --> 35:07.140]  And he got a scary letter from the recording industry saying if you publish this paper we're going to sue you under Section 1201 just like we sue 2600.
[35:09.480 --> 35:33.460]  Subsequently the press got a hold of this story and the RIAA while backpedaling and backpedaled a lot in public in private they still were very restrictive in what they told Felton he could do and left him in a position where he could publish three specific papers but if he wanted to do any other research arising out of the CD research he'd done if he wanted to publish any additional research he
[35:33.460 --> 35:49.360]  would have to come ask him for permission we felt that that was It's still a First Amendment problem that when you've got researchers who have to go ask a major corporate entity for permission before they publish their work, that's a constitutional problem when it's allowed under a statute.
[35:49.880 --> 35:53.400]  But the judge in New Jersey didn't agree with this.
[35:53.780 --> 36:03.700]  And it threw the case out saying that there was no real case anymore because RIAA, although they may have made a threat, they pulled it out.
[36:03.920 --> 36:05.400]  They reversed themselves.
[36:05.400 --> 36:09.060]  Well, has RIAA said we are not going to sue you?
[36:10.100 --> 36:11.160]  Robin, you want to answer that?
[36:11.160 --> 36:18.400]  Well, they issued a press release where they said they're not going to sue these scientists for these particular papers.
[36:20.100 --> 36:25.980]  But they have been unwilling to give any other reassurances about any of the other research that these folks are doing.
[36:26.120 --> 36:32.700]  And so these scientists feel very much like they're still under the threat of possible litigation if they continue to work in their field.
[36:33.640 --> 36:36.680]  Do you think that's having a chilling effect on such research?
[36:37.020 --> 36:39.740]  Oh, I know it's having a chilling effect on this kind of research.
[36:39.980 --> 37:00.940]  There are scientists all over the world who are issuing statements saying that they are afraid to travel to this country since the DMCA was passed because of some research that they have conducted or a computer program that they have written that could help someone make a copy of something and so would violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and they themselves could be found liable if they
[37:00.940 --> 37:01.800]  were to come here.
[37:02.620 --> 37:21.000]  Or there are also technical conferences that are moving overseas because these organizers cannot, in good conscience, ask these folks to come and talk about certain kinds of technologies in this country because it does render them liable to criminal or civil penalties under the DMCA.
[37:21.360 --> 37:33.600]  The state of Russia has now issued a travel advisory warning its citizens about the dangers of particularly computer programmers traveling in this country since the DMCA was passed.
[37:33.820 --> 37:37.700]  So there's just no question that it's having a chilling effect.
[37:37.880 --> 37:42.040]  Well, Russia certainly has good reason to say that in light of what's happened.
[37:42.040 --> 37:45.080]  And any update on that case that you know of?
[37:45.780 --> 37:47.160]  Yes, actually.
[37:48.040 --> 37:57.120]  There was a status conference in that case last Monday, and essentially all the court did was set some deadlines.
[37:57.440 --> 38:06.500]  But in late January, January 28th, will be the filing date for motions about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in that case.
[38:06.640 --> 38:13.820]  There are going to be a bunch of regular motions about, you know, is the criminal prosecution proper and stuff completely apart from the underlying law.
[38:14.160 --> 38:23.400]  But they have set a special series of motions on the law and its applicability to Mr. Sklerov and the company Elcomsoft.
[38:23.720 --> 38:26.360]  And they're due, as I said, on January 28th.
[38:26.360 --> 38:28.980]  And I think the hearing on those is set for April 1st.
[38:29.080 --> 38:34.160]  So how many challenges do you know of right now to the DMCA inside this country?
[38:36.100 --> 38:46.380]  Well, I think by my count we have three cases where the DMCA is directly at issue, and then that would be Felton, 2600, and Sklerov.
[38:47.400 --> 38:57.460]  And another, the California trade secret case, which arises out of the publication of DCSS but isn't based on the DMCA law, it's based on California trade secret law.
[38:57.560 --> 38:59.720]  That's the case that we actually won the week before last.
[39:00.420 --> 39:04.200]  We won a reversal of an injunction in that case.
[39:04.620 --> 39:07.260]  So not all the cases are going poorly.
[39:09.360 --> 39:12.100]  But those are the four most active cases.
[39:12.400 --> 39:15.840]  There may be a couple other smaller prosecutions.
[39:15.960 --> 39:26.100]  We know that there are a raft of cease and desist letters going out from various industries and stuff under this law, but I don't know of any of them that have come to litigation just yet.
[39:27.140 --> 39:40.580]  Now, for the average person out there, and most of us are average people that just want to live our lives and be left alone, why should they care about this Digital Millennium Copyright Act?
[39:40.680 --> 39:49.680]  I mean, yeah, we're talking about researchers, we're talking about hacker magazines, but how does it affect somebody out there that just wants to live a normal life?
[39:51.560 --> 39:52.920]  Robin, you want to start with that?
[39:52.920 --> 40:07.600]  Well, it really depends on the circumstances because there's so many different ways that it can impact you depending on what you need to do, whether it's some kind of research or some kind of computer programming or simply, you know, watching your DVDs.
[40:08.320 --> 40:13.460]  Everyone, you know, has always expected to, when you purchase a VHS, it's yours.
[40:13.620 --> 40:14.100]  You own it.
[40:14.140 --> 40:16.340]  You've got certain rights to do with...
[40:16.340 --> 40:17.940]  You can do with it pretty much what you want.
[40:18.040 --> 40:18.700]  It's your property.
[40:18.700 --> 40:30.320]  But the DMCA seems to have changed that around such that you've really become a licensed user of your DVD and you can only use it in ways that are pre-authorized by copyright holders.
[40:30.440 --> 40:44.860]  So what we're really seeing here is sort of a usurpation of power away from the people and over to the entertainment industry about what you can do in the privacy of your own home with your own property in terms of how you experience creative work.
[40:45.000 --> 40:48.060]  So give us an example of how that could be a bad thing.
[40:49.240 --> 40:49.760]  Specifically?
[40:50.700 --> 40:58.380]  Well, you know, you could have electronic books or other kinds of media that would simply disappear on a certain date.
[40:59.160 --> 41:03.420]  You could have things that can only be viewed in certain ways.
[41:03.660 --> 41:18.960]  You know, your DVDs, for example, there's no way of copying those so you could watch them on a VHS or encrypted music that you want to be able to copy or so you can listen to it on your MP3 player while you're jogging.
[41:19.140 --> 41:32.700]  These kinds of ordinary, everyday things that people engage in and have always sort of taken for granted are now things that are sort of product features that can be taken away by the publishers through technology and the DMCA.
[41:33.440 --> 41:40.020]  Yeah, I think this really represents a fundamental shift in how we're going to be able to experience our culture.
[41:41.580 --> 41:47.840]  We lived in a world prior to the DMCA and some of the other copyright lawsuits.
[41:48.020 --> 41:57.440]  The one against Napster comes to mind as well and the current one against Music City where copyright holders had a certain set of rights and the public had a certain set of rights.
[41:57.440 --> 42:01.100]  And what that meant was that, as Robin said, you buy a DVD, you own it.
[42:01.180 --> 42:02.540]  You buy a videotape, you own it.
[42:02.580 --> 42:03.880]  You buy a book, you own it.
[42:04.980 --> 42:08.380]  You can, you know, you can take that book to France and read it in France.
[42:08.380 --> 42:11.140]  And you can sell that book to a friend when you're done with it.
[42:11.200 --> 42:12.860]  You can lend it to a friend when you're done with it.
[42:12.920 --> 42:15.640]  You can read it, you know, sitting in front of your computer.
[42:15.800 --> 42:17.060]  You can read it sitting in a chair.
[42:17.200 --> 42:18.660]  You can read it sitting in front of a couch.
[42:19.220 --> 42:26.520]  Well, what we're going to begin to see is that what you can do with digital works is going to be dramatically different.
[42:27.060 --> 42:31.500]  You're not going to be able to have a DVD that you buy in the U.S.
[42:31.600 --> 42:37.260]  that you can then take to... or that you buy when you're traveling abroad that you can play on your home machine.
[42:38.220 --> 42:49.680]  You're not going to be able to, in the case of the DVDs, fast-forward past the commercials because they'll disable that fast-forward function because they can get more money from the people who place those commercials if they can prove that you have to watch them.
[42:50.460 --> 42:53.360]  You're not going to be able to listen to your digital music.
[42:53.360 --> 43:02.120]  You know, these new digital music things that are coming out, Press Play, and I think there's another one in Real Player, you're only going to be able to listen to that music.
[43:02.380 --> 43:06.860]  You're going to pay to be able to have this music, but you're not actually going to own it like you own a CD.
[43:07.340 --> 43:12.960]  You're only going to be able to listen to it on your computer if you want to turn it into your MP3 player and listen to it while you go jogging.
[43:13.040 --> 43:17.780]  Well, you're not going to be able to do that, or you're going to have to pay them a little bit more to be able to do that.
[43:18.740 --> 43:26.340]  I think it's going to fundamentally change our relationship to our culture, because after all, our books, our movies, our music, that is our culture.
[43:27.460 --> 43:30.900]  We are no longer going to own our culture or have a right to our culture.
[43:31.020 --> 43:37.180]  We are going to rent it, you know, at whatever terms are dictated to by the folks in Hollywood.
[43:38.580 --> 43:43.980]  That's going to be, I think, a fundamental shift in how we interoperate with our world.
[43:43.980 --> 43:44.260]  So...
[43:44.260 --> 43:53.760]  It's interesting, because the argument that is used to support this kind of a thing is that, well, it's digital technology, we have to protect against perfect copies being made.
[43:54.040 --> 44:03.860]  But I seem to see it more as, this is the first chance that they've had to be able to have this much control because it's digital, and that's why they're doing it now.
[44:03.860 --> 44:07.540]  If they could have done this 20 years ago with analog technology, they would have done it then.
[44:08.220 --> 44:09.920]  I think that's absolutely right.
[44:09.920 --> 44:22.480]  And in order for them to be able to achieve this kind of perfect total control, we also have to look at what are we giving up sort of in the attempt to get that kind of control.
[44:22.640 --> 44:37.080]  We're sacrificing journalists from being able to link to information that can help somebody make a copy of something, where scientists are no longer allowed to study certain kinds of technologies and write papers about them.
[44:37.360 --> 44:45.700]  And so in order to achieve this level of total control, we have to sacrifice so much lawful speech.
[44:45.900 --> 44:46.920]  And I think it's just...
[44:46.920 --> 44:53.320]  I don't think people are aware that this is the choice and the consequences that they're faced with right now.
[44:53.880 --> 44:56.880]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[44:56.880 --> 45:01.020]  We're talking to Cindy Cohen and Robin Gross from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[45:01.020 --> 45:09.620]  We're talking about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the DMCA, and the future of the DECSS case, and what it means to all of us.
[45:09.740 --> 45:15.340]  So feel free to give us a call if you have any particular questions to ask our experts here.
[45:16.320 --> 45:17.200]  Let's take a phone call.
[45:18.280 --> 45:18.900]  Good evening.
[45:19.120 --> 45:19.420]  Oops.
[45:19.740 --> 45:19.940]  Hang on.
[45:20.000 --> 45:20.420]  That didn't work.
[45:20.720 --> 45:21.160]  Hang on.
[45:32.360 --> 45:34.300]  I'm pressing the buttons, and they're just not working.
[45:34.440 --> 45:34.580]  Okay.
[45:34.760 --> 45:35.780]  I'm going to...
[45:35.780 --> 45:40.280]  I might risk losing one of you if I do this, but I have to try.
[45:41.020 --> 45:42.680]  If I lose you, I'll call you right back.
[45:43.560 --> 45:43.920]  Okay.
[45:44.480 --> 45:45.980]  Let's take this phone call here.
[45:47.120 --> 45:48.760]  And we lost both of them.
[45:48.900 --> 45:49.200]  Okay.
[45:49.320 --> 45:49.680]  Great.
[45:50.340 --> 45:51.320]  That's just wonderful.
[45:51.520 --> 45:52.240]  Thank you, BAI.
[45:52.820 --> 45:53.180]  Yes.
[45:53.300 --> 45:53.560]  Go ahead.
[45:53.620 --> 45:55.940]  Make your comment, and I'll try to call them back.
[45:56.060 --> 45:57.860]  I'm wondering, do you know what happened with that?
[45:57.940 --> 46:00.400]  There was a lawsuit in California about the guy with the T-shirt.
[46:00.400 --> 46:02.800]  He had printed the code on his T-shirt.
[46:04.740 --> 46:06.260]  Do you know whatever happened with that?
[46:06.520 --> 46:07.900]  I don't believe...
[46:07.900 --> 46:14.500]  I'm sure if we get the EFF people back, they can tell us more, but I don't believe the lawsuit was about the T-shirt.
[46:15.120 --> 46:18.640]  People have printed T-shirts with DCSS on it.
[46:18.640 --> 46:19.240]  No, it was filed.
[46:19.360 --> 46:19.580]  It was filed.
[46:19.580 --> 46:21.200]  I saw a copy of it.
[46:21.380 --> 46:24.600]  It's the actual suit itself, and it was...
[46:25.460 --> 46:26.740]  A suit about suits.
[46:30.240 --> 46:31.920]  I haven't heard of that one, Ben.
[46:32.120 --> 46:33.300]  Well, you know, it was a guy in California.
[46:33.300 --> 46:37.440]  He was selling a T-shirt that had the scrambling code printed on it.
[46:37.560 --> 46:37.840]  Right.
[46:38.260 --> 46:42.740]  And they actually sued him because of that, for the same thing.
[46:45.400 --> 46:47.000]  Because it was an injunction.
[46:47.140 --> 46:47.900]  He had to stop selling it.
[46:47.920 --> 46:48.800]  He was selling it on the Internet.
[46:48.800 --> 46:59.520]  Really, I mean, I know people that have them, the shirts, but I wasn't aware that they had actually gone forth with a lawsuit against the manufacturers.
[47:00.000 --> 47:07.160]  Yeah, because the guy on his website, he actually had a copy of the actual injunction that he had gotten served with.
[47:07.160 --> 47:09.120]  And it was, I think it was from the RIA.
[47:09.320 --> 47:10.520]  I think it was from them.
[47:12.880 --> 47:13.840]  Bob, I'm just wondering.
[47:14.860 --> 47:18.880]  Maybe if we get our legal experts back, they can tell us more.
[47:21.080 --> 47:21.800]  But, yeah.
[47:22.100 --> 47:23.960]  Thank you for telling us about this.
[47:24.400 --> 47:25.060]  Oh, thank you.
[47:28.370 --> 47:28.810]  Okay.
[47:29.350 --> 47:33.190]  Boy, this phone system is all kinds of messed up here.
[47:34.150 --> 47:34.690]  Hang on.
[47:34.790 --> 47:35.730]  I've got the EFF here.
[47:35.790 --> 47:36.670]  Media inquiries.
[47:36.910 --> 47:38.290]  Press 111.
[47:39.270 --> 47:40.510]  See, it's not hearing our touch tones.
[47:41.050 --> 47:41.630]  There we go.
[47:42.170 --> 47:43.250]  Trying to get Cindy back.
[47:44.910 --> 47:46.170]  No, they're trying to get the operator.
[47:47.030 --> 47:47.370]  Okay.
[47:47.610 --> 47:52.030]  The BAI phone system and the EFF phone system are arguing right now.
[47:53.110 --> 47:53.610]  Who's winning?
[47:54.430 --> 47:55.450]  EFF, this is Katie.
[47:55.710 --> 47:56.910]  Hi, can I have Cindy, please?
[47:57.510 --> 47:57.910]  Yeah.
[47:58.950 --> 47:59.350]  Thanks.
[48:02.700 --> 48:04.100]  In all fairness, this has happened before.
[48:04.340 --> 48:04.900]  Hi, Cindy.
[48:05.020 --> 48:05.300]  It's Emmanuel.
[48:05.600 --> 48:05.920]  Hey there.
[48:06.040 --> 48:06.620]  Sorry about that.
[48:06.700 --> 48:07.780]  It's our permanent phone system.
[48:07.860 --> 48:09.720]  Is there any way you can call Robin on three-way?
[48:10.060 --> 48:11.120]  Yeah, I could try.
[48:11.280 --> 48:11.540]  All right.
[48:11.700 --> 48:13.120]  Sometimes it doesn't work so well, but I could try that.
[48:13.200 --> 48:14.500]  It's got to be better than our odds here.
[48:14.840 --> 48:15.100]  Okay.
[48:15.300 --> 48:16.940]  That would allow us to take phone calls, I think.
[48:17.300 --> 48:17.680]  All right.
[48:17.900 --> 48:21.160]  Let me put you on hold, and I will try Robin on my other line.
[48:21.160 --> 48:21.620]  Okay.
[48:23.200 --> 48:24.800]  And, uh, let's see.
[48:24.900 --> 48:27.520]  Should we risk taking another phone call while she's doing that?
[48:28.380 --> 48:29.160]  I don't know.
[48:29.660 --> 48:30.560]  I think maybe we...
[48:30.560 --> 48:32.520]  The phone is doing something I've never seen before.
[48:32.520 --> 48:33.320]  It's beeping.
[48:33.460 --> 48:34.020]  It's beeping.
[48:34.260 --> 48:35.780]  The phone is making noise now.
[48:36.180 --> 48:38.980]  And it's not hearing touchstones when you enter them.
[48:39.100 --> 48:41.240]  It's disconnecting people, and it's beeping.
[48:43.620 --> 48:49.000]  And if you think that's a nightmare, just imagine what life would be like when the DMCA has full control.
[48:49.000 --> 48:49.400]  All right.
[48:49.480 --> 48:50.760]  I think I have Robin now.
[48:51.540 --> 48:53.140]  I can barely hear Robin.
[48:53.200 --> 48:54.000]  Robin, can you speak up?
[48:54.200 --> 48:55.400]  I can barely hear you.
[48:55.560 --> 48:55.820]  Okay.
[48:55.920 --> 48:57.960]  Well, if you scream, then we'll hear you.
[48:58.160 --> 49:01.160]  So, uh, if you have an important point, make sure that, uh, you're heard.
[49:01.320 --> 49:01.620]  All right.
[49:01.640 --> 49:03.080]  We're going to try to take a phone call again.
[49:03.820 --> 49:04.700]  Maybe you guys know.
[49:04.720 --> 49:04.920]  Oh, yes.
[49:04.980 --> 49:05.100]  Go ahead.
[49:05.100 --> 49:10.940]  We had a question about, uh, a lawsuit being served against people who print, uh, the DECSS T-shirts.
[49:11.160 --> 49:12.100]  Do you know anything about that?
[49:13.140 --> 49:14.940]  I haven't heard anything about it.
[49:15.980 --> 49:18.580]  About a lawsuit against the T-shirts, folks?
[49:19.000 --> 49:19.240]  Yes.
[49:19.580 --> 49:28.400]  Well, the, the folks who distribute the T-shirts were added as a defendant by DVD-CCA in the California case.
[49:28.720 --> 49:36.460]  Um, uh, but I haven't heard anything more about what actions DVD-CCA has taken against them, other than simply adding them as a defendant.
[49:36.960 --> 49:37.440]  Okay.
[49:38.640 --> 49:40.140]  Um, let's try to take another phone call.
[49:40.720 --> 49:41.860]  Sydney, you can be a witness to this.
[49:42.280 --> 49:44.340]  I'm going to hit this button and see what happens.
[49:45.380 --> 49:46.180]  Uh, it worked.
[49:46.800 --> 49:48.900]  I said, I'll tell them, but still, I'm happy that it's there.
[49:49.220 --> 49:49.340]  Okay.
[49:50.140 --> 49:51.000]  Sydney's our good luck charm.
[49:51.100 --> 49:52.480]  Let's, uh, good evening.
[49:52.560 --> 49:52.960]  You're on the air.
[49:54.380 --> 49:54.880]  Speak up.
[49:56.260 --> 49:56.580]  Okay.
[49:56.600 --> 49:58.680]  You have to talk when we, when we talk to you on the phone.
[49:58.760 --> 49:59.520]  That's the other part of this.
[49:59.600 --> 50:00.720]  I guess I should have explained that.
[50:01.120 --> 50:01.660]  Good evening.
[50:01.860 --> 50:02.400]  You're on the air.
[50:02.540 --> 50:02.900]  Oh, man.
[50:03.140 --> 50:03.640]  Oh, great.
[50:03.980 --> 50:04.540]  Everything's working.
[50:06.540 --> 50:07.660]  Except you got disconnected.
[50:07.880 --> 50:08.040]  Okay.
[50:08.040 --> 50:08.900]  I don't know what's going on here.
[50:09.400 --> 50:10.660]  Let's try this one over here.
[50:11.000 --> 50:11.520]  Good evening.
[50:11.620 --> 50:12.080]  You're on the air.
[50:13.580 --> 50:14.300]  Speak up, please.
[50:14.460 --> 50:15.220]  Oh, hey.
[50:15.340 --> 50:15.600]  Okay.
[50:15.860 --> 50:16.740]  Our first real caller.
[50:17.500 --> 50:17.860]  Wow.
[50:17.960 --> 50:20.880]  I've, I've been trying to get through for, for months and months, but, uh...
[50:20.880 --> 50:22.180]  This is your lucky day and ours, too.
[50:23.380 --> 50:29.500]  Um, I, I know, uh, I saw on the website you guys have updated the, uh, the, uh, WBAI listing.
[50:29.780 --> 50:30.840]  It's on shortwave now.
[50:31.520 --> 50:33.880]  Uh, I believe it's simulcast on shortwave, too.
[50:33.940 --> 50:36.100]  But do you have a question for, uh, for our guests?
[50:36.100 --> 50:55.720]  Um, kinda, um, I, I was wondering the, the whole issue that was, uh, uh, a little bit nervous, um, I, I was actually kind of wondering what was, with, with the Skylarf case, um, what's going on with, I mean, as far as, like, him staying in the United States,
[50:55.720 --> 51:05.880]  I know he must be racking up a lot of bills, um, what, what type of, uh, uh, compensation is he going to get in the end of this if, you know, if this is all turned around?
[51:06.100 --> 51:09.380]  Um, I mean, I don't, I'm expecting nothing, you know, but...
[51:09.380 --> 51:13.600]  Yeah, he won't get any compensation from the courts, or Adobe, or anyone.
[51:14.000 --> 51:17.980]  Um, I believe his company, Elkomsoft, is supporting him while he's here.
[51:18.060 --> 51:29.480]  There is also a Skylarf support fund, so if people are interested in giving, um, money to help him with his legal expenses, um, I do think his, his day-to-day expenses are being paid by his company.
[51:30.000 --> 51:33.780]  Um, you can go to the EFF website, there are two different funds there.
[51:33.940 --> 51:44.620]  There's giving to the EFF for our work in support of Skylarf, and then there is a separate fund that is, uh, Dimitri's direct, uh, uh, um, legal and personal support fund.
[51:44.760 --> 51:48.840]  There, there are two different ones, and, and, uh, I think we think they're both worthy of support.
[51:49.660 --> 51:53.800]  Okay, hi, I actually am an EMF, uh, or EFF, uh, supporter.
[51:54.180 --> 51:54.520]  Wonderful.
[51:55.320 --> 52:00.020]  Um, and just, Emmanuel, so you know this, you're not the only one getting weird tones from the phone.
[52:00.200 --> 52:05.400]  Um, when it's ringing, it's, uh, we're getting weird tones between the beeps.
[52:05.700 --> 52:07.880]  Um, we can talk to other people sometimes.
[52:08.060 --> 52:08.540]  You're kidding.
[52:08.720 --> 52:12.000]  No, for several seconds I was connected to some other nice gentleman.
[52:12.480 --> 52:14.280]  Was, was he also calling BAI?
[52:14.500 --> 52:14.840]  Yeah.
[52:15.240 --> 52:17.160]  Yeah, he was trying to get onto the show as well.
[52:17.160 --> 52:26.680]  Um, and it was only a few seconds, but for a while we were kind of confused, so that might kind of give people a reason to be confused when you first dial them in there.
[52:26.760 --> 52:29.700]  You can never say a BAI doesn't bring 60s technology back to you.
[52:30.620 --> 52:32.820]  Here it is all over again, cross talk between rings.
[52:33.540 --> 52:34.040]  Oh boy.
[52:34.240 --> 52:34.840]  Well, thanks very much.
[52:34.880 --> 52:35.440]  Where are you calling from?
[52:36.100 --> 52:37.160]  Uh, Rochester, New York.
[52:37.340 --> 52:37.600]  Okay.
[52:37.780 --> 52:38.320]  Well, keep listening.
[52:39.000 --> 52:39.260]  Thanks.
[52:39.400 --> 52:41.860]  Let's, uh, let's try again to take another phone call.
[52:42.000 --> 52:44.560]  I know this is, uh, a tall order here, but let's, let's give it a shot.
[52:45.220 --> 52:45.780]  Good evening.
[52:45.940 --> 52:46.500]  You're on the air.
[52:47.800 --> 52:48.640]  Hey, how are you doing?
[52:48.840 --> 52:48.960]  Good.
[52:49.080 --> 52:49.200]  How are you?
[52:49.640 --> 52:49.860]  Yeah.
[52:50.060 --> 52:52.640]  You know, everyone sounds really weird tonight, but, uh, I guess that's part of the...
[52:52.640 --> 52:54.880]  I'm calling all the way from another country, so...
[52:54.880 --> 52:55.740]  Oh, where are you calling from?
[52:56.720 --> 52:57.360]  New Zealand.
[52:57.500 --> 52:57.640]  New Zealand.
[52:57.640 --> 52:59.680]  I'm a webmaster for internetmovies.com.
[52:59.820 --> 53:01.860]  Well, you're about as far away as you can possibly get, I think.
[53:02.800 --> 53:04.660]  Yeah, you've got to run away from the MPAA.
[53:04.960 --> 53:05.980]  You never know when they're going to get you.
[53:06.180 --> 53:06.500]  Okay.
[53:06.640 --> 53:09.860]  Well, now, the folks in New Zealand have always struck me as being rather sane.
[53:10.460 --> 53:14.960]  What do you guys think of, of the things that are coming out of here with, with DMCA and all that?
[53:16.080 --> 53:16.900]  Well, I'm an American.
[53:16.940 --> 53:17.900]  I'm not New Zealand.
[53:19.120 --> 53:20.880]  I'm the webmaster for internetmovies.com.
[53:21.000 --> 53:21.820]  I talked to you before.
[53:22.100 --> 53:22.320]  Hang on.
[53:22.360 --> 53:23.140]  Are you in New Zealand?
[53:24.280 --> 53:25.040]  Yeah, I'm in New Zealand.
[53:25.060 --> 53:26.120]  You're in New Zealand, but you're American.
[53:26.240 --> 53:26.740]  Okay, fine.
[53:27.340 --> 53:27.920]  That's okay.
[53:28.580 --> 53:29.340]  All right, so...
[53:29.340 --> 53:31.080]  Lenny, I have a question for the EFF.
[53:31.340 --> 53:31.620]  All right.
[53:33.140 --> 53:41.940]  What the MPAA did to my website, internetmovies.com, with their letter to shut me down with my ISB, is that infringement on my First Amendment right?
[53:43.420 --> 53:44.780]  Have you ever seen my website?
[53:45.260 --> 53:47.240]  I was just going to it as you were talking.
[53:48.640 --> 53:49.040]  Okay.
[53:49.500 --> 53:58.960]  Well, if you look at the important message at the top, you can click that, and you can actually see the letter that I got from my lawyer, what they actually sent to my ISB to shut me down.
[53:59.280 --> 54:04.960]  And they threatened them with the DMCA to shut me down, making a lie thing.
[54:05.080 --> 54:14.200]  I was doing unauthorized distribution of copyrighted motion pictures, which isn't true, because if they would have took the time to take a look at it, all I'd do is put links in there.
[54:14.200 --> 54:16.120]  And basically, most of the links went to them.
[54:16.340 --> 54:20.080]  But now I report the news about everything and anything there is to know about movies on the internet.
[54:20.280 --> 54:23.840]  I wonder if you're allowed to do that, the way things are going.
[54:24.060 --> 54:26.360]  Well, the linking part of the decision is quite troublesome.
[54:29.120 --> 54:31.040]  But I see your cease and desist letter.
[54:31.120 --> 54:35.380]  You know, we are in the process of starting a project.
[54:35.540 --> 54:43.260]  We're working with a whole bunch of law schools called the Chilling Effects Project, where we're collecting cease and desist letters that have been sent to various folks under different topics.
[54:43.520 --> 54:52.580]  And I guess I'd love to have your permission to use yours as an example of a cease and desist letter that folks can take a look at, if you wouldn't mind.
[54:53.080 --> 54:54.080]  You're more than welcome.
[54:54.420 --> 54:54.580]  Great.
[54:54.580 --> 54:55.580]  You can do anything on our page.
[54:55.760 --> 54:58.460]  Is your site actually in New Zealand?
[54:59.140 --> 55:00.080]  Or is it in the States?
[55:00.180 --> 55:00.740]  No, no, no, no.
[55:00.940 --> 55:06.160]  It's set up to where we can move to anywhere in the world in case they try to shut it down again.
[55:06.340 --> 55:10.040]  We just, within a second, we can pop it back up with just redirecting IP addresses.
[55:10.040 --> 55:15.980]  That's the kind of tactics we have to do, and we have to keep our identity hidden because of their tactics.
[55:16.240 --> 55:20.580]  We think that they're just, like people say, Gestapo tactics.
[55:20.720 --> 55:22.580]  And you're helping to promote their movies.
[55:22.580 --> 55:23.260]  That's the thing.
[55:24.280 --> 55:25.760]  They're getting something out of this.
[55:26.800 --> 55:29.420]  No, we tell everything and anything there is to know about movies.
[55:29.620 --> 55:30.560]  Our site's free.
[55:30.640 --> 55:34.820]  If anybody goes in an important message and reads an important message, it says right there, free access.
[55:34.940 --> 55:35.720]  Take a look for yourself.
[55:35.720 --> 55:41.020]  Okay, give us your site name one more time, then we'll move on to another call.
[55:41.680 --> 55:41.920]  Go ahead.
[55:42.460 --> 55:43.540]  Internetmovies.com.
[55:43.720 --> 55:44.660]  No dashes or anything?
[55:45.920 --> 55:46.260]  No.
[55:46.540 --> 55:46.940]  Okay.
[55:47.340 --> 55:59.680]  I mean, in answer to your question, I think there is a First Amendment problem when the motion picture industry gets to rely on this law to essentially shut down speech.
[55:59.680 --> 56:01.940]  I think that is a constitutional problem.
[56:02.040 --> 56:04.940]  It's unconstitutional for the government to censor people directly.
[56:04.940 --> 56:11.580]  And it's also unconstitutional for the government to essentially outsource censorship to private parties like the movie industry.
[56:12.760 --> 56:22.220]  Well, I tell you, my website is a prime example of them, how they can use past laws and then take those laws and abuse them, abuse the power that they have, you know.
[56:22.420 --> 56:23.180]  So it's just sick.
[56:23.180 --> 56:23.520]  All right.
[56:23.560 --> 56:24.940]  Thanks for your call and good luck.
[56:25.520 --> 56:26.120]  All right, guys.
[56:26.280 --> 56:28.820]  We'll follow your case as well.
[56:29.060 --> 56:29.440]  All right.
[56:29.480 --> 56:30.740]  Let's try to take one more phone call.
[56:30.860 --> 56:31.740]  Let's go up here.
[56:31.920 --> 56:32.260]  Good evening.
[56:32.360 --> 56:32.820]  You're on the air.
[56:38.980 --> 56:46.800]  You know, getting advertisements on a call-in show, you have to warn you, people can't get through it, but the ads do.
[56:47.260 --> 56:47.740]  Let's try over here.
[56:47.820 --> 56:48.060]  Good evening.
[56:48.140 --> 56:48.580]  You're on the air.
[56:51.560 --> 57:00.640]  Was it this show that I heard about, a lawsuit against America Online in California for their 6.0 tactics of getting into your computer or something?
[57:01.180 --> 57:05.000]  We probably mentioned it at some point, but we didn't focus on it very, very much.
[57:05.200 --> 57:07.260]  I know a lot of people are very unhappy with AOL 6.
[57:07.680 --> 57:11.360]  Did anything come out of that, or are there any reports on it?
[57:11.820 --> 57:14.980]  I haven't heard anything myself, and no one here seems to have either.
[57:15.540 --> 57:18.280]  Oh, well, if you find out, please let us know.
[57:18.400 --> 57:18.700]  We will.
[57:19.360 --> 57:19.800]  Thanks, uh...
[57:19.800 --> 57:20.840]  AOL is a virus.
[57:22.220 --> 57:25.120]  You don't have to tell us, but thanks for telling us anyway.
[57:25.220 --> 57:26.120]  Let everybody else know.
[57:26.340 --> 57:26.540]  Okay.
[57:26.600 --> 57:27.480]  Let's take one more.
[57:27.600 --> 57:27.920]  Good evening.
[57:28.060 --> 57:28.660]  You're on the air.
[57:29.880 --> 57:30.420]  One more.
[57:30.700 --> 57:31.060]  Good evening.
[57:31.140 --> 57:31.580]  You're on the air.
[57:32.500 --> 57:32.780]  Hello.
[57:32.900 --> 57:34.120]  This is Donna Victor with the post.
[57:34.260 --> 57:34.620]  Okay.
[57:34.640 --> 57:38.040]  I think that pretty much sums up the theme of the way things are going tonight.
[57:38.820 --> 57:45.160]  Robin and Cindy, is there any information you can give us as far as how people can show support or websites they can visit?
[57:47.320 --> 58:00.960]  Certainly, the EFF website maintains an archive of all of the files in the 2600 case, as well as any of the other cases that we're handling on the DMCA, and also a lot of good general information.
[58:00.960 --> 58:06.400]  We are www.efffforelectronicfrontierfoundation.org.
[58:06.400 --> 58:11.740]  If you go to our homepage and you can't find what you're looking for, you might want to click on the link that says Active Legal.
[58:11.820 --> 58:16.240]  Those are all of the active lawsuits, and that may be a quick way to get you to what you're looking for.
[58:17.620 --> 58:17.940]  Okay.
[58:18.020 --> 58:21.240]  And the need for donations is rather high, isn't it?
[58:21.960 --> 58:22.280]  Absolutely.
[58:22.660 --> 58:24.040]  You know, we want to see this through.
[58:24.220 --> 58:30.680]  I know, you know, this is a long, hard battle, this DMCA battle.
[58:30.680 --> 58:35.800]  We think it's an important one, and we're here for the long haul, but, you know, this isn't easy.
[58:35.960 --> 58:39.420]  If it were easy, we've, you know, we'd have been done with it by now, but this is hard.
[58:39.600 --> 58:57.380]  We are arrayed against incredibly well-moneyed resources on the other side, and, you know, we are a very small nonprofit organization working on a shoestring, so any support that we can get from folks is greatly appreciated and, I think, really needed at this time.
[58:57.600 --> 58:57.940]  Okay.
[58:58.040 --> 59:03.600]  Again, many thanks to you for your diligence in seeing this through and for continuing to work on this and other cases.
[59:04.080 --> 59:09.380]  They are very important fights, and I'm sure we'll be reporting on them for many weeks to come.
[59:10.040 --> 59:14.980]  Robin Gross and Cindy Cohn joined us tonight from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[59:15.780 --> 59:16.900]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[59:17.160 --> 59:19.420]  Thanks very much to those people who did join us.
[59:19.540 --> 59:21.620]  Sorry for everybody for the phone foul-ups.
[59:21.820 --> 59:23.280]  We'll try to get them fixed for next week.
[59:24.040 --> 59:29.820]  Until then, stay awake, and let us know if you hear anything interesting, and we'll certainly do the same.
[59:30.220 --> 59:31.200]  See you next week.
[59:31.340 --> 59:31.460]  Good night.
[59:38.750 --> 59:48.810]  Without going out of my door, I can know all things on earth.
[59:49.150 --> 59:58.650]  Without looking out of my window, I can know the ways of heaven.
[59:58.650 --> 01:00:07.330]  The farther one travels, the farther one travels, the less one knows.
[01:00:09.610 --> 01:00:13.550]  The less one knows, the less one really knows.
[01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:50.560]  Without going out of your door, you can know all things on earth.
[01:00:50.560 --> 01:00:59.680]  Without looking out of your window, without looking out of your window, you can know the ways of heaven.
[01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:00.780]  Without looking out of your window, you can know the ways of heaven.
[01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:15.760]  The farther one travels, the less one knows, the less one really knows.
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[01:02:09.980 --> 01:02:10.660]  If you...