[00:01.590 --> 00:04.170]  Please raise your right hand and repeat after me.
[00:04.730 --> 00:06.130]  We had a close relationship.
[00:06.550 --> 00:07.470]  I liked her very much.
[00:07.610 --> 00:13.210]  I think people were concerned, but I wasn't concerned to where people would stop, you know, going to work.
[00:13.430 --> 00:15.470]  I heard the engines of the plane flying.
[00:17.390 --> 00:21.090]  The four of us looked up and saw this big ball of fire coming.
[00:21.090 --> 00:25.470]  I want a rising, rising night and day.
[00:25.850 --> 00:29.530]  All the gold and silver are being soaring away.
[00:29.950 --> 00:34.350]  Picture a color looking east and west from the dark room of his mind.
[00:34.810 --> 00:39.210]  In Major Kansas City, 12th Street and 5th.
[00:39.650 --> 00:41.030]  Nothing to stand there.
[00:43.310 --> 00:45.770]  I want a helmet with...
[00:45.770 --> 00:47.410]  It's unlikely that U.S.
[00:47.490 --> 00:49.910]  ground troops would move on the ground.
[00:49.910 --> 00:53.750]  Tune in for Shortcut 3-2001.
[00:53.970 --> 00:54.890]  I'm afraid.
[00:55.610 --> 00:59.710]  New Year's Eve at 11, here on WBAI.
[00:59.830 --> 01:00.730]  I'm afraid.
[01:01.610 --> 01:03.270]  I wish none of this had happened.
[01:06.620 --> 01:09.540]  And it's 2 o'clock in the morning in Copenhagen.
[01:09.720 --> 01:12.140]  And it's 8 o'clock in the evening in New York.
[01:12.400 --> 01:15.600]  And whatever time it is, wherever you are, it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:21.480 --> 01:22.640]  And the Off the Hook scene.
[01:22.640 --> 01:24.040]  And the telephone keeps ringing.
[01:24.560 --> 01:26.640]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:27.700 --> 01:29.560]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:30.080 --> 01:32.100]  Okay, there's a technical problem at the studio.
[01:32.720 --> 01:33.700]  Thousands of miles away.
[01:33.840 --> 01:34.320]  Just want to tell me.
[01:38.280 --> 01:39.820]  What problem are you having here?
[01:42.060 --> 01:43.280]  What problem am I having?
[01:43.620 --> 01:44.880]  I'm not one of the problem.
[01:44.980 --> 01:46.540]  I'm on the cell phone in Copenhagen.
[01:46.740 --> 01:46.980]  Yeah?
[01:46.980 --> 01:47.900]  What problem are we having?
[01:48.540 --> 01:49.340]  There's no theme.
[01:50.260 --> 01:50.980]  You're deaf.
[01:51.760 --> 01:52.380]  There's no theme.
[01:52.460 --> 01:52.580]  No.
[01:53.100 --> 01:55.520]  Apparently, the theme is not making it onto the phone.
[01:55.700 --> 01:56.340]  I guess so.
[01:56.800 --> 01:59.100]  Add that to the list of things we need to fix at the station.
[02:01.080 --> 02:03.080]  So you're telling me right now there's a theme playing on the newspaper?
[02:03.140 --> 02:03.880]  There's a theme playing?
[02:04.000 --> 02:04.100]  Yeah.
[02:04.160 --> 02:05.020]  We're right at the tail end.
[02:05.720 --> 02:06.480]  Isn't that something?
[02:08.380 --> 02:09.300]  How about that?
[02:09.760 --> 02:12.980]  Well, this is the night where things were very carefully planned.
[02:13.080 --> 02:15.000]  Everything seems to be unraveling very slowly.
[02:15.580 --> 02:20.800]  We have a very special guest who seems to have forgotten that he's a special guest for tonight.
[02:21.860 --> 02:27.300]  Hopefully, he'll remember and we can speak to him because we sort of planned the show around this person.
[02:28.380 --> 02:31.440]  So we're going to keep trying to reach that person.
[02:31.740 --> 02:34.420]  And hopefully, by the time we get to that part of the show, we'll have him online.
[02:35.980 --> 02:40.580]  I'm here in Copenhagen, which is currently located in Denmark.
[02:41.760 --> 02:44.600]  And I actually approached you and I were here over the summer.
[02:44.840 --> 02:45.280]  That's right.
[02:45.760 --> 02:45.960]  Yeah.
[02:46.160 --> 02:47.940]  And now you're in New York and I'm still here.
[02:48.880 --> 02:49.700]  Left you behind.
[02:49.880 --> 02:50.440]  Sorry about that.
[02:53.040 --> 02:54.360]  It's been fun.
[02:54.920 --> 02:59.160]  Last week, I was in the northern Norway town of Tromso.
[02:59.900 --> 03:06.200]  And since then, I've journeyed slowly down back into the land where the sun actually rises above the horizon.
[03:06.200 --> 03:13.480]  In fact, there was an entire period of time, almost a week, where I didn't see the sun at all.
[03:13.640 --> 03:17.980]  We'd get maybe an hour or two of dim light per day.
[03:18.380 --> 03:20.000]  And it was kind of depressing.
[03:20.220 --> 03:21.200]  It was kind of strange.
[03:21.200 --> 03:23.720]  But it was nice to finally see the sun again.
[03:23.940 --> 03:26.220]  I finally caught up with it in Trondheim, Norway.
[03:26.880 --> 03:31.500]  And I was so happy that I actually stared at it and it wasn't a very good thing to do.
[03:31.540 --> 03:32.360]  Not a wise idea, no.
[03:32.360 --> 03:38.040]  No, but I can imagine people doing something like this when they see the sun for the first time after an entire winter.
[03:38.280 --> 03:41.080]  They're so happy to see it that they just stare directly into it.
[03:41.140 --> 03:43.320]  And then, of course, all kinds of horrible things happen.
[03:43.560 --> 03:48.140]  So, definitely, if you're in one of those northern towns, be very careful of that kind of a thing.
[03:50.460 --> 03:51.820]  Any news from New York?
[03:52.800 --> 03:54.160]  Nothing amazingly specific.
[03:55.120 --> 03:55.980]  Antle, you have anything?
[03:59.080 --> 03:59.760]  Oh, hi.
[03:59.920 --> 04:05.100]  Well, yes, there's something happening with Euro banknotes.
[04:05.120 --> 04:07.720]  And I think you're going to be there for the introduction of them, aren't you?
[04:08.000 --> 04:10.660]  Actually, I have a pack of Euros on me.
[04:11.140 --> 04:13.080]  Not a pack of the currency.
[04:13.920 --> 04:26.160]  But before I left Amsterdam, which is where I started off, that was the very day that they were introducing what's known as the euro packs, which is basically every coin that will be introduced.
[04:26.160 --> 04:30.420]  The one-euro coin, I think a two-euro coin, various other denominations.
[04:30.740 --> 04:35.240]  And for a certain amount, you can buy this at a post office.
[04:35.240 --> 04:37.300]  And also, if you're a citizen, you'll get one for free.
[04:37.440 --> 04:41.480]  And it's meant basically to get people introduced to what the euro will look like.
[04:41.560 --> 04:48.120]  But the funny thing is, they're not showing you what the notes look like, except, you know, of course, pictures of them in newspapers.
[04:48.460 --> 04:50.380]  But you can actually hold them in your hand.
[04:50.720 --> 05:01.940]  And I was thinking, you know, January 1st, which is when this is going to be all introduced, it's a golden opportunity for counterfeiters to just simply print up a piece of paper with even their picture on it and say, yeah, this is what the euro looks like,
[05:02.040 --> 05:03.080]  and you must honor it.
[05:03.300 --> 05:05.240]  And I'm sure a lot of people are going to fall for that.
[05:05.760 --> 05:09.660]  Well, you know, they're working on a strategy to keep people from all kinds of counterfeiting.
[05:09.800 --> 05:13.020]  And it's the same technology that we've talked about before on this show.
[05:13.680 --> 05:16.600]  Technologies like EasyPass, radio frequency identification.
[05:18.180 --> 05:20.540]  And what we're looking at here is a...
[05:20.540 --> 05:20.760]  EasyPass?
[05:21.440 --> 05:21.800]  EasyPass.
[05:21.980 --> 05:22.340]  EasyPass.
[05:23.660 --> 05:24.020]  EasyPass.
[05:24.520 --> 05:29.460]  EasyPass, you drive through a toll lane, and well, maybe Pork Shop can tell us exactly what happens there.
[05:29.460 --> 05:41.140]  Well, there's some sort of specific technology which I'm not entirely familiar with, but it involves basically a pulse getting transmogrified, you know, the top of the...
[05:42.560 --> 05:43.780]  What the hell is that thing called?
[05:43.940 --> 05:44.380]  The booth?
[05:44.520 --> 05:45.340]  The booth, thank you.
[05:45.600 --> 05:56.760]  The booth will, you know, transmits a pulse from the antenna at the top, it hits your tag, and it makes a special pattern in the ground, or, you know, it changes the pulse, and that's what's red.
[05:56.760 --> 06:07.520]  But the fallout of this whole operation is that a unique identifier is transmitted from your EasyPass tag back to the booth, and that's who you are.
[06:08.140 --> 06:08.700]  It's your number.
[06:09.140 --> 06:09.480]  Can I just break in here?
[06:09.620 --> 06:10.340]  Can I just break in here?
[06:10.460 --> 06:10.580]  Sure.
[06:10.660 --> 06:16.380]  On my cell phone right now, I'm getting a call waiting from our guest, who has apparently just remembered that he's on the air tonight.
[06:16.700 --> 06:21.540]  So I just want to pass a message to our engineer that if they call the guest now, he should pick up.
[06:21.540 --> 06:23.240]  Right, we'll try that right away.
[06:23.440 --> 06:24.600]  Sorry about the interruption.
[06:25.640 --> 06:30.440]  So we're all familiar with EasyPass, and this is going to be applied to currency now, according to a report.
[06:31.400 --> 06:44.140]  The European Central Bank is working on a very hush-hush project to put these tags, these radio frequency identification tags, inside Euro banknotes in about the next three years.
[06:44.140 --> 06:48.040]  Well, if it's a hush-hush project, they really blew it, didn't they?
[06:48.180 --> 06:49.640]  How did word leak out?
[06:49.860 --> 06:50.960]  Oh, well, you know us.
[06:52.420 --> 06:52.820]  Well, that's what I'm afraid of.
[06:52.820 --> 07:02.100]  This was published on the EE Times, Electronic Engineering Times, I assume, eetimes.com, if you want to check out the headline.
[07:02.100 --> 07:06.500]  It was, Euro banknotes embed RFID chips by 2005.
[07:07.140 --> 07:09.720]  That's the headline, but was the dateline April 1st, by any chance?
[07:10.280 --> 07:10.980]  No, it was not.
[07:11.020 --> 07:12.060]  It was actually the 19th.
[07:12.620 --> 07:13.060]  Okay.
[07:13.060 --> 07:13.940]  3.03 p.m.
[07:14.880 --> 07:15.720]  Eastern Standard Time.
[07:15.860 --> 07:16.460]  There we go.
[07:16.560 --> 07:24.160]  But the two companies working on this are Philips Semiconductors and Infineon Technologies, and both have acknowledged that they are working on it, but they won't say any more than that.
[07:25.320 --> 07:29.900]  And people are lauding all kinds of benefits that might come from doing this.
[07:30.120 --> 07:40.900]  There's somebody from a place called the Institute for the Future named Paul Sappho, and he says that nobody visually inspects banknotes for all of these security features that we're embedding.
[07:40.900 --> 07:46.160]  And he says, quote, The RFID chip is an important advance because it no longer depends on humans.
[07:46.420 --> 07:50.600]  And, of course, the big problem here is that it's no longer under the control of humans necessarily either.
[07:50.600 --> 07:55.840]  It's going to be under the control of computers, of automated systems that will use that information for who knows what.
[07:56.320 --> 08:06.040]  Well, it's pretty clear we're moving into a period in the 21st century of just increased tracking and monitoring and being accountable for every single step we take.
[08:06.380 --> 08:10.520]  And all in the interest of, you know, protecting us from all the evils out there in the world.
[08:10.640 --> 08:16.740]  But, you know, I really have to wonder and worry quite a bit about just where we're going with this kind of thing.
[08:18.520 --> 08:19.680]  Indeed, indeed.
[08:20.120 --> 08:22.440]  In other news, our special guest has joined us.
[08:23.080 --> 08:23.480]  Okay.
[08:23.720 --> 08:25.740]  Well, we're not ready for our special guest yet, but...
[08:25.740 --> 08:26.740]  Yeah, we'll just let you know he's...
[08:26.740 --> 08:28.380]  We'll bring him up in just a couple of minutes.
[08:28.920 --> 08:32.620]  I can imagine everyone's all wondering who the special guest is.
[08:32.640 --> 08:34.140]  No, it is not Dan Quayle.
[08:34.420 --> 08:37.380]  I know there's been a lot of rumors about that, but no, definitely not this week.
[08:37.460 --> 08:38.380]  I think he's counting potatoes.
[08:38.380 --> 08:39.140]  Yeah.
[08:40.100 --> 08:45.420]  I got to tell you though, being here in Scandinavia, you just have like this overwhelming sense of sanity.
[08:45.700 --> 08:46.980]  I don't know how else to describe it.
[08:47.040 --> 08:49.240]  I think, poor Chuck, since you've been here, you might know what I mean.
[08:49.480 --> 08:57.800]  But basically, like, things just sort of get done, and they get done well, and things are maintained, and they're clean, and they're efficient.
[08:58.120 --> 08:59.560]  I was on a train today that actually...
[08:59.560 --> 09:08.740]  I saw the unseen happen today, where a train was actually late.
[09:08.900 --> 09:10.240]  I was supposed to go from Oslo to...
[09:10.600 --> 09:20.500]  Yeah, Oslo to Copenhagen, and we were standing there on the platform in Oslo, waiting for one of the few trains that was going to arrive today, because today was Christmas, actually.
[09:20.700 --> 09:22.140]  Right now it's 26 over here.
[09:23.180 --> 09:28.560]  And the train just didn't show up when it was supposed to, and they kept making announcements and kept pushing it back.
[09:28.560 --> 09:30.820]  And finally, the train arrived.
[09:30.980 --> 09:33.180]  Apparently there were brake problems or something, and they had to fix it.
[09:33.360 --> 09:38.460]  But we were an hour late, and I had to make a connection to get to Copenhagen.
[09:38.500 --> 09:40.360]  I had to make a connection in Gutberg, Sweden.
[09:41.680 --> 09:44.680]  And they actually held the train.
[09:45.100 --> 09:50.320]  They just held the train for all of us coming from Oslo, and they waited for us.
[09:50.400 --> 09:52.400]  I mean, you know, you've been to Union Square.
[09:53.800 --> 10:00.980]  How many times have you seen people running across the local train to the express, and the express just closes the door in their face?
[10:01.180 --> 10:03.700]  You know, we can't even manage this in the New York City subways.
[10:03.880 --> 10:07.000]  And they keep, you know, international trains waiting for people.
[10:07.060 --> 10:10.900]  I just think that's something that's just so amazing.
[10:11.100 --> 10:14.160]  And somehow the train system does not fall apart when they do this.
[10:15.300 --> 10:24.600]  But that's what I mean by sanity and also a bit of compassion for people who are, unfortunately, late on trains and things like that.
[10:25.100 --> 10:30.980]  If you haven't been over in Europe and explored and seen what it's like on the other side of the river, I suggest that you do so.
[10:31.360 --> 10:33.040]  It doesn't cost all that much.
[10:33.040 --> 10:34.500]  It does cost a bit of money.
[10:34.760 --> 10:39.360]  But probably even taking off the work is probably the biggest thing for a lot of the BAI listenership.
[10:39.360 --> 10:46.220]  But it is definitely experience that you should have at least once in your life to figure out how things work on the other side.
[10:46.400 --> 10:48.900]  They'll make you take your shoes off now also.
[10:48.980 --> 10:49.620]  Oh, yes, yes.
[10:49.920 --> 10:51.500]  You know, that is the silliest thing.
[10:51.580 --> 10:54.280]  I happened to catch that on CNN the other day.
[10:55.840 --> 10:57.920]  And, okay, you know, they never thought of this before.
[10:58.020 --> 11:00.100]  They never thought somebody could hide something in their shoes before.
[11:01.020 --> 11:03.880]  When they wave those little wands, they don't find things like that.
[11:03.880 --> 11:07.380]  And if they don't find things like that in your shoes, they're not going to find things like that in your pockets either.
[11:08.080 --> 11:09.160]  That's definitely true.
[11:09.640 --> 11:11.260]  What they're hoping to accomplish with that.
[11:11.800 --> 11:20.320]  One thing I actually heard recently that helped sort of kind of maybe explain this was that shoes tend to have a good amount of metal in them.
[11:20.600 --> 11:30.540]  So generally metal detectors and things like that, they don't really pay attention to the shoes, like, you know, the soles of your feet, just because they tend to set off so many false alarms because of the amount of metal in them.
[11:31.660 --> 11:34.180]  So we'll just have to go barefoot on airplanes from now on.
[11:34.180 --> 11:35.260]  Yeah, looks like it.
[11:36.260 --> 11:36.840]  I'll push up.
[11:36.860 --> 11:40.560]  I don't know if you heard the show last week where we were talking about the bin Laden video.
[11:40.680 --> 11:41.200]  Yes, I did.
[11:41.780 --> 11:48.100]  That's something you'd be very interested in as the person who worked on the 2600 film Freedom Downtime, more than anybody.
[11:48.780 --> 11:57.520]  You know a thing or two about digital video and how releasing a digital copy of that particular tape would certainly provide a lot of information.
[11:58.240 --> 12:01.020]  What other bits of information are in the time code?
[12:01.480 --> 12:06.720]  Well, there's, like you just said, there's a time code, basically, hours, minutes, seconds, frames.
[12:07.640 --> 12:13.460]  You have information on the f-stop of the camera, what the aperture size is, that is.
[12:14.580 --> 12:17.760]  The speed at which it's being taken, that's, you know, how...
[12:18.440 --> 12:24.440]  You really have to be a sort of a camera guy to understand it, but it's basically the amount of time that the shutter is open.
[12:24.440 --> 12:38.220]  Despite the fact that it's a digital LCD, you know, it's digital video in a digital camera, there still is a shutter speed and an aperture size that is presented there.
[12:38.240 --> 12:40.840]  So you have all that information recorded.
[12:42.900 --> 12:46.900]  Actually, the amount of time remaining on the tape, believe it or not, is recorded.
[12:47.160 --> 12:53.140]  So you have, if it was a two-hour tape, then you would be able to see that, oh, there's, you know, X minutes remaining.
[12:55.360 --> 13:00.720]  Most digital video cassettes, you know, the mini DVs, that is, are an hour and a little bit long.
[13:00.720 --> 13:03.700]  It's an hour and six minutes, an hour, two minutes, an hour and six minutes.
[13:05.060 --> 13:06.280]  What other information is there?
[13:06.300 --> 13:11.020]  There's the speed that the tape is running at, which isn't commonly used.
[13:13.220 --> 13:13.620]  Time.
[13:13.880 --> 13:17.060]  The actual date and time, assuming that the camera is set correctly.
[13:17.900 --> 13:21.460]  Now, how hard do you think it would be to fake all of that?
[13:22.360 --> 13:25.520]  To be honest, I do not know enough about the technology.
[13:25.760 --> 13:29.400]  However, with enough, you know, conflagging, you could probably do it.
[13:30.720 --> 13:42.720]  If you're enough of an intellectual engineer and you can do all this stuff, and you can, basically, you can, you have a recorder that will separate the data and the audio streams, as I guess would happen on a DV wire.
[13:43.080 --> 13:47.720]  Or, sorry, on a, that's a fire wire is used to transfer digital video usually.
[13:48.100 --> 13:58.440]  Well, I, even if it's, even if it's possible to, to, to fake some of this, I know there are people out there who would be able to see that, hey, the aperture isn't opening exactly when it says it is.
[13:58.560 --> 13:59.740]  There must be something, you know.
[13:59.740 --> 14:02.860]  It would take a lot of effort to get it exactly right.
[14:02.960 --> 14:03.720]  Absolutely true.
[14:03.860 --> 14:05.200]  It would take a real lot of effort.
[14:05.660 --> 14:05.920]  Right.
[14:06.140 --> 14:14.800]  So, I have to wonder, you know, the government's hesitation in releasing a digital copy, the things that you mentioned, I don't see any security risks in that.
[14:14.940 --> 14:23.620]  I don't see a security risk in knowing how much time is left on the tape or what aperture is being used or any of that other, you know, stuff you were saying.
[14:24.360 --> 14:26.100]  So, it's a very simple thing.
[14:26.300 --> 14:27.580]  What, what would it take?
[14:27.780 --> 14:31.300]  What technically do they have to do to release a digital copy of the tape?
[14:31.480 --> 14:32.460]  That's a good question.
[14:33.440 --> 14:48.380]  You can, well, first off, let me say, I think the actual reason is sort of, well, this might not be the actual reason, but the, the biggest stumbling block to get DV actual out the door is lack of understanding of the technology.
[14:48.380 --> 14:49.660]  This is a very new technology.
[14:52.040 --> 14:53.980]  It's, it's not like a VCR tape.
[14:54.080 --> 14:55.400]  You know how to work a VCR tape.
[14:55.560 --> 15:04.240]  Even though you might not know there's information hidden in the vertical hold, you can, you still know that a VCR tape will, will transfer when you plug one VCR into another VCR.
[15:04.800 --> 15:14.260]  With a DV cassette, if you don't plug in the DV out of one recorder into the DV in of the other recorder, you're not going to get all the information transferred over.
[15:14.260 --> 15:23.420]  It's not going to happen if you just plug in the coaxial or the RCA plugs to transfer the video like you normally would.
[15:23.920 --> 15:35.000]  So there is actually a lot of this, a lot of just not knowing very well about the technology and how it works and how all this data is transmitted that could be causing a lot of this.
[15:35.080 --> 15:41.800]  Of course, anybody with the, you know, any hobbyist or any, any person who's slightly skilled in video will definitely know this.
[15:42.420 --> 15:49.680]  However, it's just not out there and it's not out for the, let's say, the politicians who are making the decisions whether or not to release this information.
[15:51.120 --> 15:52.240]  It's not in their minds.
[15:52.340 --> 15:53.320]  They don't know how it works.
[15:55.420 --> 15:57.020]  The other thing that's worth...
[15:57.020 --> 15:57.960]  It would add so much.
[15:57.980 --> 16:02.780]  It would add so much if they would release it and we could say, yes, this appears to be genuine.
[16:03.060 --> 16:06.300]  And that would take away a lot of the doubt that is being passed around.
[16:06.460 --> 16:09.360]  And by not doing that, it adds to the doubt so much.
[16:09.360 --> 16:10.340]  Yes, it does.
[16:10.820 --> 16:24.000]  I've, I've been wondering the same thing myself is also, can I get my own, my own translator to figure out if, is this actually what's being said or is it, because all these, for example, here's a perfect example, but the Bible.
[16:24.260 --> 16:31.020]  There are 80 million different translations of the Bible because all these different, the different words are written in the original language.
[16:32.240 --> 16:37.960]  It's subtle nuances to the language that you don't actually understand unless you actually know the language.
[16:37.960 --> 16:47.020]  That's why so many people learn it, to, to read the Bible in its original, original text to understand all the difference, different meanings to words.
[16:50.810 --> 16:53.250]  So, getting your own translator might be beneficial.
[16:53.870 --> 17:04.810]  Some of the, some of the words on the tape obviously had a lot of trouble understanding since they were actual names of some of the hijackers and somehow the original translators missed that, which you'd think they wouldn't miss.
[17:04.810 --> 17:06.150]  That makes you ask a couple of questions.
[17:06.690 --> 17:07.050]  Yeah.
[17:07.810 --> 17:10.910]  I want to, um, introduce someone from, uh, from Denmark.
[17:11.310 --> 17:15.170]  Uh, since I'm here in Denmark, uh, with a bunch of people who are...
[17:15.170 --> 17:17.290]  Well, actually, we met, uh, last time you were out here.
[17:17.590 --> 17:17.850]  Mm-hmm.
[17:17.970 --> 17:25.870]  Um, this is, uh, Zappo, who's gonna join you on, on my phone right now and tell, tell you a little something about a, uh, um, a billing...
[17:25.870 --> 17:37.850]  I wouldn't call it a billing snafu, I'll call it a billing hazard, something that might actually be introduced in our country at some point considering that, uh, the phone company here has, uh, a pretty big share with Ameritech.
[17:38.370 --> 17:40.350]  But, uh, here, here's Zappo to explain.
[17:41.710 --> 17:42.490]  Good evening.
[17:42.730 --> 17:43.230]  Hello, Zapp.
[17:43.790 --> 17:44.110]  Hi.
[17:44.810 --> 17:50.470]  Yeah, as I found out last week when, um, when I made the manual here, it's, it's actually...
[17:50.470 --> 17:59.390]  I didn't know that it wasn't more widespread than it is, but, uh, we have here a charge when we, uh, pick up the phone to make a call.
[17:59.950 --> 18:01.810]  Then we are charged on our bill.
[18:02.150 --> 18:02.930]  Just to pick up?
[18:03.650 --> 18:08.850]  Just to pick up, but, uh, I tried to find out exactly when this is done.
[18:09.310 --> 18:16.490]  And, uh, I got varying explanations that turned out to be not a well-known subject in the phone company.
[18:16.870 --> 18:25.650]  So, uh, I got an explanation that was that it's, when you get the dial tone, then it'll cost you, and it's about three cents.
[18:26.410 --> 18:30.430]  Uh, and it's just been set up, uh, put up to the doorbell.
[18:30.530 --> 18:33.050]  So now it's six, about six cents.
[18:33.650 --> 18:34.990]  In the United States currency?
[18:35.570 --> 18:37.790]  Or in, in which currency?
[18:37.910 --> 18:38.290]  Six cents?
[18:38.870 --> 18:39.770]  This is in Denmark.
[18:40.050 --> 18:40.430]  Uh, in?
[18:40.590 --> 18:41.670]  Six American cents.
[18:41.850 --> 18:42.510]  Oh, okay, okay.
[18:43.150 --> 18:43.370]  Yes.
[18:44.130 --> 18:45.890]  I've, I've exchanged it for you.
[18:46.530 --> 18:46.910]  That's it.
[18:47.030 --> 18:47.230]  Anyway.
[18:47.970 --> 18:49.550]  Do you know what the reasoning is behind this?
[18:50.330 --> 18:53.390]  Well, it seems to be that the reason is that they can.
[18:53.390 --> 18:59.250]  Because, and nobody could do anything about it at that time because they were in Monopoly.
[18:59.530 --> 19:07.250]  And now it's kind of become the norm, so nobody really thinks anything of it.
[19:07.690 --> 19:07.910]  Hmm.
[19:07.910 --> 19:10.250]  So, um, they just do this.
[19:11.750 --> 19:14.230]  And as, as I said, they just doubled it.
[19:16.030 --> 19:17.510]  So, nothing really stopping.
[19:18.550 --> 19:34.450]  If there, if there isn't really much of a reason to, uh, what does getting the dial time in, I, I imagine in, in early telephone times, it would actually cost, I, I guess you could say it would cost money to actually move the mechanical, uh, the mechanical arm to plug in the,
[19:34.510 --> 19:39.810]  or even earlier than that, the, uh, whoever the actual operator was to move the, uh, pin.
[19:39.930 --> 19:46.850]  And I guess that would, uh, that would incur some, uh, you know, you have to pay for the oil that used to grease the machine or something like that.
[19:47.130 --> 19:53.170]  But that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense because you really don't pick up the phone other than to make a call, which you're going to be charged for at any rate.
[19:54.050 --> 19:56.030]  So, uh, that is, that is interesting.
[19:56.230 --> 20:07.310]  It reminds me of the, the touchtone charge that we have here in the States, which, which also did have a, uh, historical legitimate purpose, which was that when rotary dialing was king, to have touchtone was a luxury.
[20:07.470 --> 20:15.630]  And you actually did have an additional little piece of hardware, a touchtone decoder at your central office for your line, if you were subscribed to that service.
[20:15.630 --> 20:23.170]  And, uh, uh, since that time, touchtone has become ubiquitous and the equipment is shared among all subscribers, but the charge remains.
[20:23.390 --> 20:34.250]  I actually found out, I had a question about that earlier, um, and it turns out that that's actually mandated by the government, um, when you have the, uh, the touchtone, the actual touchtone charge.
[20:34.890 --> 20:44.930]  Um, it turns out that, or it seems that the reasoning behind this is that not all of the, uh, telecommunications equipment is updated everywhere in the United States.
[20:44.930 --> 20:52.790]  It's there, you know, in some remote part of, of Kansas or Idaho or someplace that, you know, no one actually lives, sorry guys.
[20:53.390 --> 21:00.070]  Uh, there are, uh, there are still, uh, touched, uh, sorry, uh, pulse-only, uh, decoders.
[21:00.470 --> 21:03.270]  Um, and so the charge still remains.
[21:03.770 --> 21:04.810]  It is curious, though.
[21:07.310 --> 21:09.250]  Anything else, Zap, or, uh, is that it?
[21:09.970 --> 21:19.930]  No, I got a lot of conflicting information from this phone company, but that's, that's the issue, so I won't try to, to claim that, that I know the truth about it.
[21:20.450 --> 21:20.530]  Uh-huh.
[21:20.530 --> 21:32.070]  But another, another one said that, that it's only when you press the first digit, but, and then another one said that you might get it back sometimes when you call abroad, and the, the receiver doesn't pick up or it's busy.
[21:32.650 --> 21:32.730]  Hmm.
[21:33.410 --> 21:37.010]  So then you might get that charge back, but not within this country.
[21:37.990 --> 21:39.130]  Well, that's, that's interesting.
[21:39.210 --> 21:43.070]  Do you know if it's that, if that's the case in other countries as well, and, uh, in neighboring countries?
[21:43.510 --> 21:52.650]  Well, it sounds like it's only around here, but I could imagine that it might be the same in Sweden, because they have, uh, kind of the same, uh, phone system.
[21:52.650 --> 22:00.710]  Um, but as Emmanuel said, this, uh, phone company here has been bought by Ameritech, so you might see it at some point.
[22:01.030 --> 22:01.870]  Yeah, we could.
[22:03.110 --> 22:04.290]  So, uh, are you still there?
[22:05.470 --> 22:07.710]  Uh, yeah, I'll give it back to Emmanuel then.
[22:07.830 --> 22:08.190]  Yeah, okay.
[22:08.450 --> 22:09.790]  Just a little blip here.
[22:10.350 --> 22:10.830]  All right.
[22:12.810 --> 22:20.790]  Okay, uh, thanks to, uh, to Zappo, here in, uh, in Copenhagen, for that, uh, expose, which is something that could be hitting us.
[22:20.790 --> 22:22.090]  Yeah, we'll see.
[22:22.650 --> 22:27.770]  I'll check to see if they're, uh, if in, uh, neighboring countries, uh, if the same, uh, charge exists.
[22:28.050 --> 22:31.090]  Yeah, you know, the whole, the whole phone system is completely different here.
[22:31.190 --> 22:33.410]  I mean, first of all, everybody has a phone.
[22:33.590 --> 22:43.150]  Like, in the States, I know lots of people don't have phones that they carry around with them, but everybody here, whether they're six years old or 85 years old, they all carry phones.
[22:43.430 --> 22:52.690]  And, you know, it's really something to see elderly people just ripping through, typing in SMS messages on their, on their mobile phones, and not having the slightest bit of problems with them.
[22:53.070 --> 22:58.890]  Everybody on a train gets a phone call at some point, and they are happily chatting away with, uh, you know, their loved ones, wherever they are, myself included.
[22:59.550 --> 23:01.910]  Uh, and it's, it's really, uh, it's, it's very different.
[23:02.130 --> 23:03.790]  It's a very different type of atmosphere.
[23:04.430 --> 23:15.930]  Um, I don't think people are as obnoxious with the phones when they don't speak as loudly and interrupt everybody and, and, uh, and make it so that you, you wish they were never invented in the first place.
[23:17.290 --> 23:20.290]  Um, GSM is, of course, the technology here that is used.
[23:20.450 --> 23:21.730]  Everybody has a GSM phone.
[23:21.730 --> 23:22.610]  That is the technology.
[23:22.850 --> 23:23.990]  It all is integrated.
[23:24.150 --> 23:28.590]  You go into one country, a different company takes over, a different set of companies take over.
[23:29.090 --> 23:39.390]  Uh, when I was in Norway, I noticed a couple of oddities in that I couldn't send short messages, SMS messages, and I also wasn't receiving caller ID, and I'm not sure why that is.
[23:39.530 --> 23:41.950]  But every other country, that seems to have worked, uh, pretty well.
[23:42.450 --> 23:44.930]  But, uh, I marvel at that every time I come to Europe.
[23:44.930 --> 23:50.730]  It's just the integration of the phone system and how, uh, how they all tie together and pretty much work.
[23:51.110 --> 23:52.990]  Here's an off-the-wall suggestion about that, actually.
[23:53.150 --> 23:54.190]  I just thought about it now.
[23:54.510 --> 24:00.350]  Uh, is it possible that somehow the European Union has something to do with, uh, how the, uh, how the phones are all integrated?
[24:00.470 --> 24:03.990]  Because Norway is not part of the European Union, but the other countries around there are, aren't they?
[24:03.990 --> 24:05.850]  Well, actually, uh, Sweden...
[24:05.850 --> 24:07.790]  Wait, is Sweden part of the, uh, EU?
[24:08.010 --> 24:10.350]  Or, uh, I know neither one of them is using the currency.
[24:11.170 --> 24:14.590]  Um, I would say that Sweden is not if it's not using the currency.
[24:14.790 --> 24:15.150]  I'm not actually sure.
[24:15.150 --> 24:20.770]  No, I know that either Norway or Sweden is part of the EU but isn't using the currency, and one of them also isn't part of the EU.
[24:20.950 --> 24:23.030]  Well, Norway, I definitely know, is not part of the EU.
[24:23.230 --> 24:26.050]  Okay, then it's Sweden that's part of the EU and isn't using the currency, then.
[24:26.230 --> 24:27.370]  And it works fine with them.
[24:27.570 --> 24:28.070]  I don't know.
[24:28.130 --> 24:33.970]  I don't think it has to do with that so much because there are other countries where, uh, where that is the case where the phone system works.
[24:34.750 --> 24:48.630]  But of course, we could talk about this for hours to come, and we have other topics that we have to talk about, including our main topic for this particular show, which is, of course, the news that many people might have heard, hopefully you've heard,
[24:48.790 --> 24:51.230]  and that is our latest legal battle.
[24:52.110 --> 24:59.450]  I don't know if you remember all the different legal battles we had in the year 2001, but this one was probably the most surprising.
[24:59.710 --> 25:07.790]  That was when the Ford Motor Company decided to up and sue us for a website that we had, a website that was rather critical of General Motors, their competitor.
[25:08.310 --> 25:15.370]  It was the one with the word that we can't say on the air, the F word, followed by GeneralMotors.com.
[25:15.810 --> 25:20.470]  And that basically was something that we pointed to Ford.com.
[25:21.830 --> 25:25.370]  We did it sort of a joke, you know, sort of a kind of a funny thing.
[25:26.430 --> 25:27.610]  They didn't find it funny.
[25:29.790 --> 25:31.350]  So they sued us.
[25:31.530 --> 25:32.450]  They brought us to court.
[25:32.610 --> 25:35.590]  We had to go to Detroit and defend ourselves.
[25:35.930 --> 25:42.250]  And just last week, on the 20th, the 20th of December, we got word.
[25:42.650 --> 25:49.310]  And here on the phone with us, joining us right now, is our lawyer, Eric Grimm, who will tell us what was said.
[25:50.270 --> 25:51.050]  Hi, Emanuel.
[25:51.270 --> 25:51.690]  How are you?
[25:51.770 --> 25:52.030]  How are you doing?
[25:52.530 --> 25:52.890]  All right.
[25:53.370 --> 25:55.290]  Thanks for giving me a heart attack before...
[25:56.450 --> 25:59.050]  Well, the weather is just terrible here.
[25:59.290 --> 26:05.670]  And I was a few minutes late getting back from going out and trying to grab something for dinner.
[26:05.950 --> 26:07.690]  Did you get all 45 of my messages?
[26:08.090 --> 26:08.810]  Yes, I did.
[26:08.910 --> 26:10.210]  I got every single one of them.
[26:10.310 --> 26:13.930]  I don't think I've retrieved them and listened to all of them yet, but...
[26:13.930 --> 26:16.390]  Well, you'll find increasing desperation with everyone.
[26:17.890 --> 26:19.490]  So tell us what happened in court.
[26:19.490 --> 26:41.910]  Well, what happened in court was we had an argument way back in May in which Ford asked for what's called a preliminary injunction, which says if the judge grants a preliminary injunction, that means that he orders you to do something or not to do something for the duration of the lawsuit until a trial is held.
[26:41.910 --> 26:53.750]  Well, the judge didn't do anything back in May, so we had a pretty good sense that the judge was very skeptical of the basis for Ford's lawsuit.
[26:53.750 --> 27:03.730]  And now on the 20th, the judge made it perfectly clear to everyone that Ford had absolutely no basis in the law for their lawsuit.
[27:04.950 --> 27:17.970]  Now, the judge in particular said that the parties, both Ford and 2600, spent a lot of time on the First Amendment and the First Amendment implications of hyperlinks.
[27:19.150 --> 27:36.350]  But the judge said that it's unnecessary to get to the First Amendment, because even if you just look at the statutes, and the statutes that were involved are the Lanham Trademark Act and then a more recent amendment to that, which is called the Federal Trademark Dilution Act.
[27:37.350 --> 27:48.570]  The judge looked at those statutes and said, even if we assume that all of the allegations Ford says are true, Ford still loses.
[27:48.890 --> 27:52.110]  The law doesn't provide Ford with any remedy for that.
[27:53.630 --> 28:01.230]  Now, Ford was trying to get us to simply not link to them unless we had their permission or not forward the site to them without permission.
[28:01.350 --> 28:02.630]  What effect did they want from us?
[28:04.330 --> 28:11.250]  Ford was asking for a court order that said that you could not point that domain name to the homepage of the Ford website.
[28:13.450 --> 28:21.690]  Now, what kind of a precedent would this have set had we, A, either not fought the case at all, or, B, fought the case and lost?
[28:23.250 --> 28:34.250]  Well, particularly fighting the case and losing would have set a terrible precedent, especially in light of the approach that the judge Cleland has taken.
[28:35.930 --> 28:50.470]  If the judge had recognized that as a viable trademark cause of action, it probably would have applied to hyperlinks as well as to the pointing of domain names because he doesn't spend a lot of time distinguishing the two from one another.
[28:51.010 --> 28:59.550]  I know some people that I've spoken with about the case say that there's a big difference between pointing the domain name and publishing a hyperlink.
[29:00.570 --> 29:08.910]  But his analysis tends to treat both the same and say, it says, look, if it's just in the programming code, that doesn't infringe trademarks.
[29:09.290 --> 29:34.430]  Now, if he had said that it does infringe trademarks, though, that, well, I'll go back to, on the World Wide Web Consortium web page, there's an article called Links and Law Colon Myths by Tim Berners-Lee, which he basically says, if we say that somebody has a right not to have hyperlinks point to them,
[29:35.090 --> 29:40.670]  that right would completely cut the rug out from under first speech and it would destroy the World Wide Web.
[29:42.430 --> 29:45.750]  And that's what we were essentially fighting about.
[29:46.030 --> 30:00.630]  And I think the judge was absolutely right in the analysis that he did take, which was simply to say, trademark law provides no such right in terms of having a right not to be linked to.
[30:03.810 --> 30:06.490]  And, you know, there was a lot at stake.
[30:06.490 --> 30:15.850]  I mean, I know that the particular facts of the case seem like an almost trivial thing that Ford should never have taken to court in the first place.
[30:17.890 --> 30:35.670]  But their strategy would appear to be, and I mean, there's no way to be sure exactly what they had in mind, but I'm sure that there are a lot of other critics that criticize Ford Motor Company, and Ford would love to shut down all of the different critics that they have.
[30:37.050 --> 30:45.490]  And if the judge had gone the other way, they could have taken that precedent in hand and gone and censored a whole bunch of people all over the Internet.
[30:46.290 --> 30:48.650]  They've already won one particular battle.
[30:48.870 --> 30:56.110]  Someone had registered a site called FordSucks.com, and if you look at who owns FordSucks.com right now, it's the Ford Motor Company.
[30:56.270 --> 30:57.650]  They went and they took it from the guy.
[30:58.790 --> 30:59.930]  Well, that's true.
[31:00.190 --> 31:04.390]  I'm actually... there are about 60 different defendants in that case.
[31:04.390 --> 31:05.330]  That's the Ford v.
[31:05.450 --> 31:06.390]  Great Domains case.
[31:07.850 --> 31:11.210]  And I'm representing about eight of the defendants.
[31:12.270 --> 31:22.350]  I came into that case after the FordSucks guy had already settled with Ford, but I'm working with Cindy Cohn of the Electronic Frontier Foundation on that case.
[31:23.090 --> 31:30.690]  We very much wanted to get in there before the FordSucks guy settled, but unfortunately, by the time we arrived on the scene, it was too late.
[31:31.130 --> 31:32.530]  Why do you suppose he settled?
[31:33.530 --> 31:42.450]  Well, Ford, in that case, is using a new statute that was passed in 1999 called the Anti-Cyber Squad and Consumer Protection Act.
[31:42.610 --> 31:53.410]  And I'll tell you a little bit more later on, if you remind me, about some of the just insane hypocrisy that went into the passage of that statute.
[31:55.490 --> 32:04.030]  But, you know, that is on the books now, and Ford is able to use that as a very effective hammer against domain name registrants.
[32:04.590 --> 32:13.590]  What they did is went to a website called Great Domains that acts as a place to buy and sell domain names.
[32:13.590 --> 32:29.410]  Actually, we found that a lot of people post domain names on there without any intent to sell them, instead looking for people to work together with them in the development of websites and for a variety of other purposes that have nothing to do with arbitrage.
[32:30.890 --> 32:51.930]  But in any event, Ford found on that website a list of about, I think it's between 80 and 100 different domain names that in some way contain the word Jaguar or contain the word Volvo, contain the word Ford, Lincoln, I think, too.
[32:51.930 --> 32:58.650]  They sued all of those different registrants, all in one big lawsuit.
[32:58.950 --> 33:05.770]  And they also sued Great Domains itself, which is now a subsidiary of VeriSign and Network Solutions.
[33:07.130 --> 33:24.970]  And their position was that the act of publishing one of these domain names on the website can only be, can be nothing other than a commercial use of Ford's trademarks.
[33:25.670 --> 33:39.070]  You know, even if they, for example, in the Jaguar sense, if one of the domain names is actually referring to Jungle Cat, not to the automobile brand, nevertheless, Ford takes the position that it alone controls Jaguar.
[33:39.070 --> 34:02.570]  And everybody in that lawsuit, all 60-some-odd defendants with nearly 100 domain names, if Ford's position is that all of those people owe it a whole lot of damages, up to $100,000 per domain name in punitive damages, plus attorney's fees, plus a lot of other things.
[34:03.310 --> 34:03.870]  Unbelievable.
[34:04.230 --> 34:06.410]  And that's the kind of world that we're heading towards.
[34:06.410 --> 34:06.770]  Right.
[34:06.970 --> 34:10.390]  So the Ford Sucks guy found himself sucked up in that lawsuit.
[34:11.110 --> 34:17.630]  And Ford's lawyers, and if you'd like to know a little bit more about them, I can tell you the story about who they are and what they do.
[34:19.730 --> 34:27.070]  But they're out in Utah, and I'm not sure, but I think they've probably taken the case on a contingency basis.
[34:27.910 --> 34:31.230]  But they told the Ford Sucks guy, you have a choice.
[34:32.170 --> 34:39.690]  You can give us the domain name, plus give us $3,000 cash right now, and we'll let you out of the lawsuit.
[34:40.810 --> 34:42.870]  Otherwise, we're going to put you through a meat grinder.
[34:44.130 --> 34:47.190]  It's going to be very unpleasant from now to the end of the lawsuit.
[34:47.430 --> 34:51.050]  And at the end, if we win, we'll probably get even more damages.
[34:52.730 --> 34:53.470]  Why $3,000?
[34:53.470 --> 34:56.730]  So confronted with that choice, what choice would you make?
[34:57.310 --> 34:58.090]  Yeah, but...
[34:58.090 --> 35:00.630]  Well, actually, knowing you, Emmanuel, you'd probably bite it.
[35:01.990 --> 35:04.550]  But the average person, what choice would they make?
[35:04.750 --> 35:05.330]  Of course.
[35:05.490 --> 35:05.650]  Of course.
[35:05.650 --> 35:06.890]  I totally understand that.
[35:07.010 --> 35:08.850]  I'm curious, though, why the number $3,000?
[35:08.990 --> 35:11.110]  I think that's such a strange figure to ask for.
[35:13.330 --> 35:16.090]  I have no idea why they're asking for $3,000.
[35:16.390 --> 35:17.190]  They just...
[35:17.190 --> 35:18.690]  I think...
[35:18.690 --> 35:22.490]  And I know that they've asked several other defendants for that number.
[35:23.670 --> 35:29.570]  And as far as I can tell, that's just what they think that they can get out of people.
[35:29.950 --> 35:30.810]  That's part of the lawsuit.
[35:31.190 --> 35:32.990]  They're trying to cover a lunch or something.
[35:33.950 --> 35:37.110]  It's not a huge amount for legal people.
[35:37.250 --> 35:39.350]  Of course, it's a crippling amount for most of us.
[35:39.350 --> 35:41.470]  Well, I mean, if you've got...
[35:41.470 --> 35:51.390]  If you're doing a $3,000 per domain name, and you have 100 domain names, and the lawyers don't...
[35:51.390 --> 35:56.630]  The lawyers who are representing Ford don't seem to be doing a whole lot of work on the case.
[35:57.170 --> 36:06.150]  If the lawyers get to keep all $3,000, Ford may not be paying them as much in terms of legal fees.
[36:07.710 --> 36:12.390]  And, you know, split between three or four lawyers, that's a lot of money.
[36:12.890 --> 36:15.990]  To me, this has all the earmarks of organized crime.
[36:16.230 --> 36:16.990]  It really does.
[36:17.290 --> 36:27.510]  Just the intimidation, the strong-arm tactics, and just the basically stealing money from people for something that they really have no right to have in the first place.
[36:27.510 --> 36:31.050]  And, of course, it led us to register the site, FordReallySucks.com.
[36:31.370 --> 36:37.130]  And they haven't said a word to us about that, and there's a lot of information about the lawsuit on that particular site as well.
[36:37.970 --> 36:45.790]  So I really think these things have a tendency, if people fight them, of really snapping back in their faces.
[36:46.190 --> 36:50.430]  You know, it's not something that I think they'll want to do very much in the future.
[36:50.670 --> 36:50.870]  I don't know.
[36:50.910 --> 36:52.630]  Do you see this getting better or worse?
[36:53.970 --> 36:58.290]  Honestly, Emanuel, I see it getting a lot worse before it gets better.
[36:58.630 --> 37:05.650]  I mean, we've had a very big and very major victory in the Ford and 2600 lawsuit.
[37:06.870 --> 37:10.550]  At the same time, in the Ford v.
[37:10.670 --> 37:13.710]  Great Domains lawsuit, we've had a partial victory.
[37:14.170 --> 37:19.930]  Judge Cleland threw out the trademark infringement part of the case, and he threw out the dilution part of the case.
[37:19.930 --> 37:37.390]  But because of that 1999 Cyber Squatting Act provision, he has said that all of the Electronic Frontier Foundation defendants in that case have to stay in and have to be subjected to discovery before there's any possibility of them being let out.
[37:38.750 --> 37:42.090]  And discovery is an expensive process.
[37:44.750 --> 37:55.530]  So, now, if I'm advising somebody who's a potential defendant in one of these cases, I have to tell them, I can't get you out right away.
[37:56.590 --> 38:15.590]  You know, of course, we're going to try the same arguments in other cases, but we were very much hoping to have a decision that says, you know, if you don't have a bad intent, and, you know, you put forth a factual basis saying, you know, you weren't doing anything wrong,
[38:15.610 --> 38:24.250]  and you're publishing a website about jungle cats, you can get let out of the lawsuit without having to spend too much money.
[38:25.570 --> 38:36.970]  But Judge Cleland's response is, no, you're going to spend at least $20,000 filing all your motions and going through discovery before you have any chance of being let out.
[38:37.370 --> 38:43.910]  And we're going to put control in Ford's hands over what they ask for in the discovery process.
[38:43.910 --> 38:47.490]  So they get to control how much the defendant spends.
[38:48.830 --> 39:14.590]  So that's an extremely powerful weapon that's been put in the hands of the trademark owners in order to use it as a lever or a club in order to get results through settlements that they might not even be able to get if the case went through the whole process to trial.
[39:15.510 --> 39:16.830]  I'd like to get our phone number.
[39:16.970 --> 39:18.090]  I'd like to get our phone number.
[39:18.630 --> 39:20.330]  It's Country Code 1, obviously.
[39:20.850 --> 39:27.470]  The phone number is 212-209-2900 for anybody who wants to give us a call.
[39:27.630 --> 39:33.330]  We're speaking with Attorney Eric Grimm, who is our attorney, actually, in the Ford v.
[39:33.570 --> 39:36.330]  2600 case, and he has won that case for us.
[39:36.370 --> 39:38.050]  I think you deserve a lot of credit for that.
[39:38.810 --> 39:42.750]  And certainly, it's our first legal victory ever, I think.
[39:43.210 --> 39:45.790]  So maybe you're our good luck charm.
[39:47.250 --> 39:49.210]  I'm here in Copenhagen.
[39:49.890 --> 39:52.270]  Porkchop and Seraph are back there in New York.
[39:52.470 --> 39:54.570]  Do you guys have any questions for Eric Grimm?
[39:54.730 --> 39:56.170]  I have one question, actually.
[39:57.610 --> 40:00.070]  Is this case going to set some precedent?
[40:00.230 --> 40:01.550]  How much of a precedent is it going to set?
[40:01.630 --> 40:04.850]  Is it going to make things better in the future for future cases like this?
[40:04.850 --> 40:08.850]  Because obviously, this is going to get a lot worse, as you said, probably.
[40:09.830 --> 40:15.250]  Is this going to make things easier for those of us who say that Kellogg's is not a great serial?
[40:16.470 --> 40:16.910]  Yes.
[40:17.310 --> 40:22.470]  I think that this case will make things a lot better.
[40:23.410 --> 40:30.390]  But my response to Emanuel is simply, this case is not the only thing that's happening in this area of law.
[40:31.490 --> 40:42.750]  And because of other things that are happening, including other things that Judge Cleland himself is doing in other cases, the general trend is in the bad direction.
[40:43.050 --> 40:47.890]  But this one case is at least a very, very promising sign.
[40:49.570 --> 41:13.270]  And I think the most promising part about it is the strong criticism that Judge Cleland made of a couple of older cases that were decided back in 1997 and 1998, those being Jews for Jesus versus Brodsky and Planned Parenthood of the Federation of America versus Bucci.
[41:14.690 --> 41:34.170]  And in both of those cases, the Federal Trademark Dilution Act was interpreted very broadly to apply to things that most lawyers would say, it doesn't really make sense that you should be dealing with this under the trademark statutes and not something else.
[41:35.130 --> 41:52.110]  But nevertheless, those courts, in order to reach a particular result, adopted a very, very broad interpretation that encompassed almost all speech on the Internet as being a potential trademark violation if you were criticizing something that involved a trademark.
[41:54.010 --> 42:20.870]  Judge Cleland's interpretation of that and his disagreement with those cases I think is a very, very important and positive development precisely because it makes it clear that there is a space within the law in which it is okay and you don't violate somebody's trademark and you don't dilute somebody's trademark if you're actually engaging in criticism,
[42:20.870 --> 42:33.330]  if you're engaged in fair use, if you're engaged in artistic expression, if you're engaged in non-commercial activity, that's something that shouldn't be regulated through trademark law.
[42:33.930 --> 42:40.710]  So, to that extent, I think that his ruling is a very positive development.
[42:41.330 --> 42:54.010]  On the other hand, with respect to just domain names themselves, the addresses that are used on the Internet, he's adopted a different interpretation of what the Cyber Squatting Act means.
[42:54.910 --> 43:07.050]  So you may be able to do a lot of free speech things with a website and nevertheless have the address of that website attacked under his interpretation of the Cyber Squatting Act.
[43:07.430 --> 43:08.410]  Does that make sense?
[43:08.750 --> 43:11.150]  Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
[43:11.150 --> 43:14.450]  And I can't help but say I'm a bit disturbed by the implications.
[43:16.250 --> 43:30.330]  If you have questions concerning freedom of speech on the Internet or corporate abuse of First Amendment rights, Eric Grimm is the person to ask that question of, and I guess we should give our listeners the chance to do just that now.
[43:30.570 --> 43:39.930]  Again, our phone number is 212-209-2900, and this is the part where we cross our fingers and hope that we don't lose one of the calls on the line when we take the first listener phone call.
[43:39.930 --> 43:41.410]  So, shall we do that?
[43:41.490 --> 43:42.790]  Let's take the first listener phone call.
[43:43.350 --> 43:44.030]  Good evening.
[43:44.270 --> 43:45.370]  You're on the air.
[43:45.870 --> 43:46.510]  Hi, how you doing?
[43:46.970 --> 43:47.350]  Okay.
[43:48.090 --> 44:02.210]  Yeah, I don't know that my question so much pertains to First Amendment rights, but it seems as though the way the corporate lawyers are going after it's kind of the way Time Warner's lawyers went after people that they considered having bootleg boxes and whatnot.
[44:02.510 --> 44:09.790]  They sued them en masse and, you know, tried to get them to settle, you know, out of court.
[44:10.270 --> 44:13.690]  And the lawyers, it seemed, took whatever fees they could get.
[44:14.190 --> 44:21.110]  And I was wondering if you had any information on what the outcome of all that kind of thing was in the end.
[44:22.410 --> 44:27.470]  Whether Time Warner can disallow you from using a bootleg box or not.
[44:27.750 --> 44:29.450]  I'll hang up and listen to your answers.
[44:30.110 --> 44:30.750]  Thank you.
[44:32.550 --> 44:35.110]  Actually, Emmanuel may know more about that than I do.
[44:35.350 --> 44:39.350]  I personally haven't handled any bootleg box cases.
[44:39.930 --> 44:40.950]  I have a...
[44:43.630 --> 44:44.830]  I don't know.
[44:47.430 --> 44:49.070]  We're going for a time warp here.
[44:49.490 --> 44:50.210]  I think so.
[44:50.530 --> 44:51.170]  Did everybody survive?
[44:51.310 --> 44:51.730]  Everyone here?
[44:52.270 --> 44:52.970]  I'm here.
[44:53.190 --> 44:53.770]  I'm here.
[44:55.870 --> 45:21.270]  As far as I know, there are at least some cases in which bootleg boxes either may directly involve some sort of copyright infringement if they're used in a way to view copyrighted material that exceeds authorization from whoever the publisher is.
[45:22.650 --> 45:29.450]  Or it may be treated as a circumvention device under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[45:32.330 --> 45:44.630]  So my initial take on it, not having dealt with that issue before, is that, number one, we're dealing with a different area of law, which is copyright law as opposed to trademark.
[45:45.310 --> 45:59.570]  And number two, that I'm not going to try to point to any particular case or decision to recommend to you in any way using a bootleg box.
[45:59.750 --> 46:03.330]  And I'm sure that there are different varieties of boxes.
[46:03.330 --> 46:08.090]  You mentioned the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[46:08.190 --> 46:15.710]  How big a weapon do you think the DMCA is going to be for these corporations to wield against individuals?
[46:16.230 --> 46:16.910]  Huge.
[46:17.310 --> 46:17.870]  Huge.
[46:18.030 --> 46:19.710]  I mean, it's already being used.
[46:20.450 --> 46:44.890]  And I think in your case in particular, in the 2600 case that was decided by the Second Circuit recently, it's already being used as a weapon not just to interfere with the legitimate expressive activity of 2600 enterprises, but also there are a lot of other publications,
[46:45.070 --> 46:54.150]  including the New York Times, that were also publishing hyperlinks so that people could view the code for DCSS.
[46:54.850 --> 47:23.110]  And a lot of them are now taking back their hyperlinks because there's a lot of fear out there that all sorts of publishers, including some very well-known newspapers and magazines, may get sued for providing access to circumvention devices if they do help get the news out on what that code is and what it does.
[47:24.070 --> 47:26.670]  So, I mean, that's a terribly frightening development.
[47:27.650 --> 47:29.370]  So, let's try to take another listener phone call.
[47:29.430 --> 47:32.010]  Hopefully the feedback monster won't get us this time.
[47:32.930 --> 47:34.030]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:36.070 --> 47:37.350]  Ah, the friendly dial tone.
[47:38.610 --> 47:40.490]  You know, you don't hear dial tones like that in this country.
[47:41.090 --> 47:41.610]  Try another one.
[47:41.670 --> 47:42.410]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:43.510 --> 47:45.130]  I have several observations.
[47:45.130 --> 48:14.050]  One, the length of time between the time a person actually purchases a domain name and the time that they actually have gone past without them putting up a website could be a factor because it would be totally unfair for someone who's purchasing a website with a name like Lincoln which could be Abraham Lincoln or even someone's family's last name or whatever they want to do or even a generic term
[48:14.050 --> 48:26.130]  like Jaguar which no one really should have a right to own because it's been in the English language for who knows how many thousands of years before there was even a dream of an automobile.
[48:26.810 --> 48:56.530]  But one could also make the argument that if one just recently purchased a domain name that they are in the process of deciding or designing their site as opposed to someone who, let's say, has had the domain name for about, I'd say, a year because my daughter was actually going to put up a tribute site to George Harrison and only because the .infos came out was she able to get George-Harrison
[48:56.530 --> 49:06.690]  .info but it was one company that was literally sitting on six George Harrison domain names and that's why I think the bad people ruin it for the good.
[49:07.530 --> 49:28.710]  So, you know, there's some, of course, validity why there shouldn't be cybersquatting but in fairness to the defendants they could also give the argument if they had just recently purchased a domain name that they were in the process of designing a site because I work in web development and we do purchase our domain names first because we want to make sure that's available and we do actually take
[49:28.710 --> 49:54.930]  the time to develop our site and, you know, go through all the logistics but there's no law that you have to wait until the last minute to purchase a domain name so that could also be a factor and also the second thing is technically Ford sucks is a different word from Ford unless it's Ford hyphen sucks Ford sucks is a different word than the word Ford so that could also be a technical argument.
[49:56.990 --> 49:58.430]  Okay, Eric, do you have a response?
[49:59.010 --> 50:05.630]  Oh, I think those are worthwhile actually, is the caller still on the line?
[50:05.990 --> 50:06.930]  No, I think he's on the line.
[50:07.490 --> 50:37.410]  Okay, I was hoping that I get a chance to ask him who has all the George Harrison domain names I know that there's a fellow who, and I could be wrong about this but who has an environmental issue that he's trying to push and his interest in having those domain names is try to come up with a cooperative agreement with celebrities just to have them read his environmental manifesto before he hands
[50:37.410 --> 50:38.310]  them the domain name.
[50:38.510 --> 51:12.390]  I don't know if that's going on here or not and I think that it's difficult the word cyber-squatting I think tends to get in the way of careful analysis rather than helping one engage in careful analysis however, the caller is right that the time of development may be something to consider I don't think any court has treated that as dispositive and in fact,
[51:12.390 --> 51:43.330]  there are a couple of court cases especially one out of the Northern District of Illinois and Chicago which says that just warehousing a domain name holding onto it and not publishing any website doesn't violate any trademark law whether that case still holds up after the Cyber-Squatting Act isn't quite clear but if I remember right in one of the cases or one of the decisions Judge Cleland issued
[51:43.330 --> 52:15.250]  on the 20th he actually mentioned that case favorably so at least in Detroit it looks like that's still a good law Now, on the topic of variations on spelling, for example, Lincoln sucks as opposed to Lincoln, is that different enough so that it takes it outside of the scope of what lawyers call confusing similarity?
[52:18.230 --> 52:37.330]  Unfortunately, there are at least two decisions that I know of, one being the Northern Light decision out of Massachusetts, the other one being one of Judge Cleland's rulings recently, just basically say a domain name containing the trademark.
[52:38.090 --> 52:42.690]  So you could have a 64-character domain name that's somewhere within it.
[52:43.170 --> 52:46.110]  The trademark can be found as a text string.
[52:47.570 --> 52:50.670]  They suggest that all of those fall within similarity.
[52:50.990 --> 53:00.550]  I don't think that's a very nuanced way to approach the issue, but nevertheless, courts at least so far seem to be interpreting it very broadly.
[53:01.210 --> 53:03.150]  I hope that answers the question.
[53:03.770 --> 53:05.490]  New York, how are we doing on time?
[53:05.930 --> 53:10.710]  We are at 8.52, so I guess we could take another two callers if they're really quick.
[53:11.190 --> 53:12.190]  Okay, let's make it quick then.
[53:12.410 --> 53:13.510]  Let's take another phone call.
[53:13.850 --> 53:14.190]  Good evening.
[53:14.430 --> 53:15.010]  You're on the air.
[53:15.010 --> 53:15.770]  There are no calls.
[53:16.370 --> 53:17.310]  There are no calls?
[53:17.430 --> 53:17.790]  There is one.
[53:17.850 --> 53:18.270]  There is one.
[53:18.330 --> 53:18.410]  There can't be.
[53:19.110 --> 53:19.430]  Okay.
[53:20.470 --> 53:21.290]  Hang on a second.
[53:21.770 --> 53:22.170]  And...
[53:22.170 --> 53:23.470]  Hello, you're on the air.
[53:25.090 --> 53:25.890]  Oh, yes.
[53:27.310 --> 53:39.370]  Using a computer in a library, how far can you take that in terms of, like, developing a website?
[53:39.370 --> 53:40.410]  Is that possible?
[53:43.290 --> 53:44.330]  Interesting question.
[53:46.430 --> 53:49.690]  You could... there are a lot of different free sites out there.
[53:49.850 --> 53:57.150]  You might want to visit GeoCities or something along those lines, www.geocities.com, on your library computer.
[53:57.710 --> 54:00.030]  And they have a lot of prefabricated sites.
[54:00.270 --> 54:06.270]  Of course, you know, in a library, computers are in demand, so you might not want to be sitting in front of a terminal for very long.
[54:06.790 --> 54:11.090]  But, um, you could do it, but, uh...
[54:11.090 --> 54:12.390]  It's theoretically possible.
[54:12.610 --> 54:13.430]  Oh, sure, yeah.
[54:13.710 --> 54:15.090]  Let me ask you guys another question.
[54:15.370 --> 54:31.030]  In terms of, like, cutting-edge communications technology, you know, phones and everything, um, computers, etc., to be really, like, wired these days, what would you say would be, like, the minimum investment you would need in order to be, uh, you know,
[54:31.150 --> 54:31.830]  state-of-the-art?
[54:32.670 --> 54:34.430]  As far as a consumer goes?
[54:34.430 --> 54:47.270]  Well, if you wanted to put out, like, a website and be able to do that in combination with other things, you know, like, um, email and so forth.
[54:48.390 --> 54:51.130]  I think he's asking several questions there, though.
[54:51.490 --> 54:57.090]  I mean, there's a big difference between being state-of-the-art and being able to publish a website using your own computer.
[54:57.290 --> 55:04.270]  What kind of, like, basic generic investment do you need to, like, be willing... with the technology changing constantly, right?
[55:04.930 --> 55:06.990]  And, like, price is going down.
[55:07.710 --> 55:14.210]  Uh, you know, how much do you have to fork over these days in order to be able to, uh, do something very basic?
[55:14.790 --> 55:17.390]  You know, computers are tremendously overpowered now.
[55:17.550 --> 55:17.970]  I'm sorry?
[55:18.250 --> 55:25.210]  Computers are tremendously overpowered now, and for taking advantage of something as simple as the power of, uh, of internet publishing...
[55:25.210 --> 55:25.370]  Right.
[55:25.570 --> 55:31.790]  ...there are a lot of, uh, old computers out there that you could probably pick up from eBay for a few hundred dollars that would get the job done.
[55:31.870 --> 55:37.850]  All you really need is, is a, uh, you know, a computer of decent speed that can run a decent operating system.
[55:37.850 --> 55:38.010]  Right.
[55:38.390 --> 55:39.970]  ...and, uh, a modem.
[55:40.110 --> 55:43.850]  It doesn't even have to be fast if you're just trying to, uh, to put some text out there.
[55:43.950 --> 55:45.530]  When you say a few hundred, how many hundred?
[55:45.670 --> 55:46.290]  Give me a number.
[55:47.150 --> 55:47.510]  Well...
[55:47.510 --> 55:50.690]  No, I think this is a question best suited for the personal computer people.
[55:50.810 --> 55:52.210]  They're on tomorrow night at 8 o'clock.
[55:52.450 --> 55:52.650]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[55:52.710 --> 55:57.770]  Because they, they really specialize in how much, what kinds, particularly as far as hardware.
[55:58.350 --> 56:00.310]  We, we tend to theorize and dream a lot more.
[56:01.390 --> 56:06.470]  Well, what would you say, like, how would you define the cutting... Are you talking about you over in Europe, uh, Emmanuel?
[56:06.470 --> 56:08.970]  Yeah, I'm standing in a bathroom, actually, in a hotel.
[56:09.270 --> 56:16.190]  Right, okay, so I was curious, you said that people over there in, uh, whichever part of Europe you happen to be in now, um, I didn't catch that part.
[56:16.730 --> 56:17.090]  Copenhagen.
[56:17.510 --> 56:17.890]  Go ahead.
[56:18.570 --> 56:18.930]  Copenhagen.
[56:19.170 --> 56:19.630]  Yeah, yeah.
[56:19.850 --> 56:25.850]  They're constantly, uh, involved in, um, you know, various forms of electronic communication.
[56:26.410 --> 56:31.130]  I'm sorry to have to break into this, but, uh, we have to, uh, we have to wrap it up and, uh, get going.
[56:31.570 --> 56:34.550]  Yes, we can talk about this for hours, and, of course, we'll have the opportunity next week.
[56:34.550 --> 56:38.130]  Um, so, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll rejoin us.
[56:38.210 --> 56:42.950]  But, Eric, I want to ask you, is there any information you want to give out to people so they can, uh, contact you or learn more?
[56:43.750 --> 56:44.870]  Uh, sure.
[56:45.010 --> 56:48.050]  Let, let me give you my, uh, well, I, I don't know.
[56:48.170 --> 56:50.210]  Should I get my email address over the air?
[56:50.390 --> 56:52.010]  Oh, that's a decision only you can make.
[56:52.210 --> 56:56.490]  Yeah, but my law firm name is, is Cyberbrief PLC.
[56:56.490 --> 56:58.690]  Uh, it's, uh, in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
[56:59.410 --> 57:14.830]  Um, I, actually, speaking of, of website publishing, uh, in, in order to, uh, uh, I, I, I tend to be very specialized in which cases I, I take and I don't take.
[57:14.830 --> 57:27.950]  So I, I don't actually have a website up, and that, that sort of keeps down on, on the level of people who, who ask me questions that either I can't answer, uh, or, or, you know, ask me to, to take on pro bono matters.
[57:28.810 --> 57:39.070]  Um, so, at least for right now, I, I, I think I'll avoid, uh, providing either the, the website address or, uh, uh, an email address.
[57:39.070 --> 57:43.070]  Uh, but, uh, our email address is OTH at 2600.com.
[57:43.070 --> 57:44.650]  Do you have any questions for the off-the-hook crew?
[57:44.910 --> 58:02.970]  Yeah, but one, one thing that I will encourage, uh, anybody to do, uh, is if you do have, uh, freedom of speech issues or, or other kinds of issues involving website publishing or any of the other issues we've addressed, uh, get in touch with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[58:03.570 --> 58:05.670]  Um, and they can put you in touch with me.
[58:05.810 --> 58:07.190]  I, I, I often do work with them.
[58:07.190 --> 58:20.990]  Um, and the most important thing of all is that they, more than just about anybody else, are fighting every day to make sure that people's freedom is preserved on the Internet.
[58:21.490 --> 58:25.290]  And I, I can't encourage your listeners strongly enough.
[58:25.470 --> 58:31.170]  They need to donate money to EFF and keep them in business and keep them doing good things.
[58:31.390 --> 58:33.110]  Well, that's the, uh, intro music.
[58:33.250 --> 58:35.250]  That means it's time for us to hit the road.
[58:35.750 --> 58:36.330]  All right.
[58:36.490 --> 58:37.370]  Hey, thanks a lot, guys.
[58:37.550 --> 58:38.510]  Everybody for pitching in.
[58:38.630 --> 58:40.230]  Eric Grimm, thanks so much for all your help.
[58:40.390 --> 58:41.070]  Porkchop, sir.
[58:41.770 --> 58:42.650]  Great job, everybody.
[01:00:18.180 --> 01:00:22.200]  I'm Michael Moore, the director of Canadian Bacon and the producer host of TV Nation.
[01:00:22.640 --> 01:00:24.700]  But we all know this is a radio nation.
[01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:28.780]  So listen to 99.5 FM WDAI, New York.
[01:00:29.540 --> 01:00:32.820]  Just to find all the invitation tonight.