[00:02.320 --> 00:02.960]  That's right.
[00:03.400 --> 00:04.340]  My name's Bob.
[00:04.480 --> 00:05.740]  I'm the one who lines it.
[00:05.920 --> 00:06.920]  The puff sauce job.
[00:07.120 --> 00:08.800]  I'm the one who told Luke.
[00:09.000 --> 00:09.780]  Don't touch him.
[00:09.860 --> 00:11.840]  The kid wouldn't amount so much.
[00:12.020 --> 00:14.840]  I believe in the sense of sound.
[00:15.420 --> 00:18.220]  I have always been too loud.
[00:18.540 --> 00:21.020]  Won't you help me drown it out?
[00:22.020 --> 00:23.380]  I'm what I feel.
[00:23.840 --> 00:25.780]  What I'm feeling is surreal.
[00:26.220 --> 00:28.800]  I'm a massive spinning wheels.
[00:28.880 --> 00:31.460]  Always digging in my heels.
[00:31.460 --> 00:33.740]  Now I've got the things to do.
[00:34.200 --> 00:36.740]  Oh, that cookie hair.
[00:39.600 --> 00:41.660]  Crows from the wall.
[00:47.950 --> 00:56.670]  And at seven minutes after seven o'clock, despite the best efforts of terrorists and morons alike, Off the Hook is on the air.
[01:01.870 --> 01:03.750]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:04.230 --> 01:06.330]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:07.370 --> 01:09.330]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:10.030 --> 01:11.890]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:12.450 --> 01:14.810]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:17.670 --> 01:20.310]  Von Digglypum for the best is back the worst.
[01:20.950 --> 01:22.870]  I hope that's understood.
[01:23.230 --> 01:23.970]  Von Digglypum!
[03:54.830 --> 03:56.110]  And a good evening to everybody.
[03:56.250 --> 03:57.910]  This program is called Off the Hook.
[03:59.270 --> 04:01.910]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday night.
[04:02.090 --> 04:08.150]  We're here an hour earlier and an hour later tonight as a result of the fundraising drive.
[04:08.950 --> 04:17.870]  And yes, we did say a couple of weeks ago when we were last on that we would in fact be on last week for three hours.
[04:18.750 --> 04:19.790]  And that didn't happen.
[04:20.010 --> 04:20.990]  And I'm sorry about that.
[04:21.090 --> 04:28.170]  But we were told at the very last minute that there had been a last minute scheduling snafu, which always seems to involve us for some reason.
[04:28.790 --> 04:31.230]  And we were being postponed until this week.
[04:31.230 --> 04:37.530]  So, I can no longer say that I will be at the Dayton Ham Fest next week because that happened last week.
[04:37.770 --> 04:41.430]  So, I guess we'll just strike that part of the program.
[04:41.590 --> 04:48.470]  But I guess we can replace it with the part of the program that says, I was at the Dayton Ham Fest last week and it was a lot of fun.
[04:48.470 --> 04:54.790]  And so, anybody out there who ran into us, it was a pleasure running into you as well.
[04:56.950 --> 04:57.670]  Porkchop, you're here.
[04:58.210 --> 04:58.890]  Good afternoon.
[04:59.110 --> 05:00.790]  All the way down from Pukitsi.
[05:01.250 --> 05:01.870]  That's right.
[05:03.050 --> 05:05.010]  And it was fun driving in today, wasn't it?
[05:05.390 --> 05:06.290]  Oh yeah, it was great.
[05:06.490 --> 05:07.630]  I had lots of fun.
[05:07.870 --> 05:10.130]  Well, you see, I always sound like I'm flustered.
[05:10.210 --> 05:12.330]  And I guess that's because I always am flustered when I get here.
[05:13.570 --> 05:18.930]  Every week it seems that they throw something new into the mix to make it more difficult, more of a challenge.
[05:19.490 --> 05:23.830]  And today, today was the real grand slam of fun.
[05:24.910 --> 05:27.530]  Where they announced that there's a terrorist threat now.
[05:28.150 --> 05:35.990]  Apparently a terrorist threat against particular streets and intersections because the police have dutifully closed off the streets for no reason at all, with no explanation.
[05:37.270 --> 05:38.650]  I was actually here early.
[05:39.030 --> 05:43.210]  Despite the traffic on the road, I actually made it here, but the police decided to close off Wall Street.
[05:44.630 --> 05:45.850]  No signs, no nothing.
[05:45.850 --> 05:49.970]  Just a bunch of smirking cops standing at the intersection, keeping you from going down the street you need to go down.
[05:51.030 --> 05:59.310]  And yeah, I guess that's a real effective way of fighting terrorism, is to get everybody into a big, huge traffic jam where tempers are really running high, you know?
[05:59.470 --> 06:00.390]  There's people running.
[06:00.930 --> 06:01.750]  What do you mean people running?
[06:01.770 --> 06:03.370]  People are running down the middle of the street.
[06:03.510 --> 06:04.850]  People are running down the middle of the street, screaming.
[06:05.010 --> 06:06.350]  No, not screaming, just running.
[06:06.470 --> 06:07.230]  That was me, though.
[06:07.430 --> 06:08.770]  They looked pretty peaceful, actually.
[06:10.170 --> 06:10.990]  Well, I don't know.
[06:11.310 --> 06:12.590]  I just don't...
[06:12.590 --> 06:14.030]  The whole purpose...
[06:14.030 --> 06:16.690]  I mean, yeah, terrorism is a bad thing, but you know what?
[06:16.890 --> 06:18.330]  Terrorists rely on surprise.
[06:18.550 --> 06:19.370]  They don't make appointments.
[06:19.510 --> 06:22.290]  They don't say, we're going to be striking this area at this time.
[06:22.510 --> 06:23.590]  Please do what you have to do.
[06:23.670 --> 06:24.430]  They don't do that.
[06:25.030 --> 06:32.450]  And if you believe that that's what they do, then you simply fall into the trap of destroying your society and making everything into chaos, which is what's going on.
[06:32.530 --> 06:34.650]  I mean, the latest thing, they say, hey, do you know what?
[06:35.130 --> 06:41.190]  Suspicious people can move into your apartment building and load an apartment with dynamite and blow it up and bring the whole building down.
[06:41.330 --> 06:42.930]  Oh, you got to look out for everybody.
[06:43.110 --> 06:44.130]  You got to know who's living in your place.
[06:44.310 --> 06:45.250]  You have to search their apartments.
[06:45.390 --> 06:47.070]  Anyone suspicious, report to the police immediately.
[06:48.390 --> 06:49.450]  We don't need terrorists.
[06:50.110 --> 06:50.950]  We don't need...
[06:50.950 --> 06:53.070]  We can destroy our society all on our own.
[06:53.150 --> 06:54.010]  It's not that hard.
[06:54.250 --> 06:54.970]  What's the color?
[06:55.770 --> 06:56.610]  The color today.
[06:56.790 --> 06:57.890]  I don't know what the color today is.
[06:57.970 --> 06:58.170]  Do you?
[06:58.410 --> 06:58.790]  They might know.
[06:58.970 --> 06:59.910]  Jim, hang on.
[06:59.930 --> 07:00.750]  I'm going to get you a microphone there.
[07:00.850 --> 07:01.070]  Go ahead.
[07:01.210 --> 07:02.510]  It is still yellow.
[07:02.590 --> 07:03.090]  It's still yellow?
[07:03.310 --> 07:04.070]  Despite all this.
[07:04.070 --> 07:06.370]  In fact, a number of commentators are making hay with that.
[07:06.530 --> 07:07.470]  They're saying...
[07:07.470 --> 07:09.350]  Okay, but the thing is, does the color...
[07:09.350 --> 07:11.230]  The color is for the whole country, right?
[07:11.330 --> 07:12.090]  Not just for the city.
[07:12.390 --> 07:12.710]  Yeah.
[07:12.930 --> 07:16.630]  Because I think, looking outside today, I would say the color for the city is bright red.
[07:17.430 --> 07:17.790]  Definitely.
[07:18.110 --> 07:21.190]  If you look at the faces of the people in their cars, it's definitely bright red.
[07:21.590 --> 07:24.650]  In the country, though, it may be more like just plain white.
[07:24.870 --> 07:25.230]  I don't know.
[07:26.030 --> 07:26.390]  Blandness.
[07:26.610 --> 07:26.850]  Nothing.
[07:27.410 --> 07:27.990]  Glazed eyes.
[07:28.070 --> 07:28.550]  That kind of thing.
[07:29.870 --> 07:30.750]  But, no.
[07:31.350 --> 07:34.310]  The color to be afraid of is yellow now.
[07:35.070 --> 07:35.830]  As it was.
[07:35.870 --> 07:36.730]  As it always has been.
[07:38.630 --> 07:39.210]  All right.
[07:39.430 --> 07:43.810]  Well, we're here on the expanded fundraiser edition of Off the Hook.
[07:43.890 --> 07:50.770]  And the reason for that is so that we can raise money for WBAI, which actually is keeping this radio program on the air.
[07:52.790 --> 07:57.450]  So, we encourage people to call in with their generous donations.
[07:57.670 --> 08:00.010]  The number is 212-209-2950.
[08:02.630 --> 08:03.630]  That's the pledge line, right?
[08:03.750 --> 08:04.710]  Or is that the call-in line?
[08:04.950 --> 08:05.970]  I haven't done this in a while.
[08:06.990 --> 08:08.090]  2950 is the pledge line.
[08:08.190 --> 08:08.990]  2950 is the pledge line.
[08:09.070 --> 08:09.170]  Okay.
[08:09.250 --> 08:09.790]  Thank you very much.
[08:10.930 --> 08:11.910]  Looks like we're up to $400.
[08:12.210 --> 08:14.010]  I don't know if that's us or the previous show.
[08:14.090 --> 08:19.950]  So, if it's not us, if the tally person could simply wipe that off the screen, that would be very helpful.
[08:21.070 --> 08:21.430]  Okay.
[08:21.510 --> 08:24.450]  Let's do some updates as to what's been going on in the world.
[08:25.830 --> 08:27.850]  And AutoJack also joins us from California.
[08:28.330 --> 08:28.470]  Yep.
[08:28.690 --> 08:29.070]  I'm right here.
[08:29.170 --> 08:30.410]  Now, you're not in the studio now.
[08:30.550 --> 08:32.030]  You were in the studio last time.
[08:32.150 --> 08:33.870]  But now you're back in San Diego.
[08:34.030 --> 08:34.190]  Yes.
[08:34.190 --> 08:35.410]  I'm in my studio apartment.
[08:35.570 --> 08:36.390]  Well, that's great.
[08:36.510 --> 08:39.230]  Studio apartment versus studio in the radio station.
[08:39.430 --> 08:41.130]  But you will be back here in a few weeks.
[08:41.450 --> 08:41.830]  That's true.
[08:41.930 --> 08:47.170]  As we prepare for H2K2, which is coming at us faster than a freight train.
[08:47.710 --> 08:50.070]  And, boy, it's going to be an experience and a half.
[08:50.770 --> 08:59.430]  Having been involved in three of these conferences before, and knowing where we stand at this particular stage in time on this one, I'd have to say we've never been so well-coordinated.
[08:59.630 --> 09:02.850]  We've never gotten our act together so tightly.
[09:04.010 --> 09:14.770]  And considering we have so much more space this time, considering that it's going to encompass all kinds of different activities, I really have to say this is the one not to miss.
[09:14.790 --> 09:16.530]  If you had to miss any of them, don't miss this one.
[09:17.510 --> 09:20.710]  H2K2, Hackers on Planet Earth, the fourth HOPE conference.
[09:20.990 --> 09:29.210]  It's all taking place July 12th through 14th here in New York City at the Hotel Pennsylvania, right across the street from Penn Station.
[09:29.390 --> 09:37.190]  And we're going to have tickets to that as part of our fundraiser tonight, so stay tuned for information on that.
[09:38.070 --> 09:39.830]  AutoJack, any adventures flying back?
[09:39.990 --> 09:42.930]  Any drug enforcement agency agents harassing you this time?
[09:43.270 --> 09:47.010]  No, actually it was pretty eventless, I guess.
[09:47.350 --> 09:52.590]  You know, I stopped in Baltimore, stopped in Nashville, and then I got off the plane and everything was fine.
[09:52.870 --> 09:52.990]  Uh-huh.
[09:53.310 --> 10:07.690]  If you recall, last time AutoJack was on the phone after having returned to California, he had been detained by DEA agents in San Diego who claimed that there was a drug smuggling ring from Islip, New York, to San Diego, or some bizarreness like that,
[10:07.770 --> 10:09.650]  and apparently you were the prime suspect.
[10:10.050 --> 10:10.230]  Right.
[10:10.430 --> 10:12.570]  But I'm glad everything has worked out.
[10:13.610 --> 10:14.790]  Yes, everything's worked out.
[10:15.410 --> 10:21.430]  Okay, well, before I get into news stories and updates and things like that, does anybody have anything they'd like to bring to the floor?
[10:22.710 --> 10:23.070]  No?
[10:23.250 --> 10:25.430]  Okay, everyone's just busy ensconceding their own material there.
[10:25.530 --> 10:26.330]  Okay, fine, no problem.
[10:26.930 --> 10:29.210]  Then what I'm going to do is...
[10:29.930 --> 10:31.330]  Well, actually, Jeff is here, too.
[10:31.710 --> 10:33.550]  You're sitting to the side, so I didn't actually see you.
[10:33.850 --> 10:34.210]  Sorry.
[10:34.510 --> 10:35.010]  How are you doing?
[10:35.310 --> 10:38.090]  We went to Dayton together, along with Bernie S.
[10:38.310 --> 10:44.830]  and Shapeshifter, the layout artist for 2600, wanted by the Philadelphia police for a half-million-dollar bail last year, or two years ago.
[10:46.310 --> 10:49.950]  So, yeah, we were quite a caravan going down the interstate there.
[10:50.690 --> 10:53.090]  Your second hamvention, as they call it out there.
[10:53.110 --> 10:53.330]  Yes.
[10:53.490 --> 10:56.150]  Yeah, this was the second time, and it was just as much fun.
[10:56.350 --> 10:57.610]  We had some new things this time.
[10:57.730 --> 10:59.410]  I've never seen the bomb-sniffing dogs.
[10:59.710 --> 11:01.370]  Yeah, you know, that's something else.
[11:01.370 --> 11:04.770]  They introduced bomb-sniffing dogs at a ham fest.
[11:04.850 --> 11:06.950]  Now, who is going to blow up a ham fest?
[11:06.990 --> 11:08.110]  It doesn't make any sense.
[11:08.350 --> 11:10.390]  It's like blowing up a parking lot, really.
[11:11.450 --> 11:12.370]  Exactly what we were in.
[11:12.550 --> 11:15.770]  It was a parking lot, yeah, so I guess that would make as much sense.
[11:16.450 --> 11:18.630]  Yeah, bomb-sniffing dogs all over the place.
[11:19.750 --> 11:24.430]  And, you know, they were sniffing things they'd never sniffed before, like all kinds of ham gear.
[11:24.910 --> 11:28.550]  I was trying to get Bernie on the line, but unfortunately he doesn't seem to be around.
[11:28.950 --> 11:29.690]  No, he's around.
[11:29.770 --> 11:30.690]  He spoke to me earlier.
[11:30.890 --> 11:34.170]  I've been calling him all day, getting his voicemail on Sprint.
[11:34.270 --> 11:37.730]  I know it's Sprint, you know, it's all Sprint, you know, quality of service.
[11:37.730 --> 11:43.790]  But I'd like for him to be on the line so that we can talk about various things that we've seen.
[11:44.750 --> 11:46.050]  Maybe we can reach him later.
[11:46.310 --> 11:46.650]  Okay.
[11:46.910 --> 11:48.970]  But what were your impressions of the ham fest this year?
[11:50.250 --> 11:51.150]  It's always fun.
[11:51.630 --> 11:55.210]  With the second one, I haven't been enough to get bored yet.
[11:55.410 --> 11:57.850]  And I've never... you always see different things.
[11:58.050 --> 11:58.550]  Yeah, that's true.
[11:58.670 --> 12:01.250]  Each year it seems to focus in different areas.
[12:02.870 --> 12:04.410]  Made more purchases this time.
[12:04.610 --> 12:04.750]  Yeah.
[12:05.230 --> 12:06.230]  Brought back a few more toys.
[12:06.230 --> 12:06.750]  Uh-huh.
[12:07.270 --> 12:09.350]  We brought the 2600 van out there.
[12:09.450 --> 12:13.510]  It's always, you know, a bit of a gamble driving the 2600 van out to Dayton, Ohio.
[12:14.290 --> 12:15.870]  Can't go very fast up those hills.
[12:16.070 --> 12:17.170]  And, of course, there are mountains out there.
[12:17.750 --> 12:22.130]  And usually we fill it up with back issues and T-shirts and things like that.
[12:22.170 --> 12:26.670]  And this year the attraction was the movie Freedom Downtime, which we showed.
[12:26.770 --> 12:30.190]  We basically set up the van in the parking lot.
[12:30.190 --> 12:36.430]  What happens is you all get a parking space and you basically pitch your wares from your parking space.
[12:36.490 --> 12:41.170]  And we set up a TV set and just was playing the film, you know, day in, day out, literally.
[12:42.510 --> 12:47.450]  And people would come by and look at it and sometimes buy it and sometimes shake their heads and walk away.
[12:48.170 --> 12:50.590]  But it was great seeing so many people there.
[12:50.690 --> 12:55.510]  And I think it's another part of the culture that we need to stay in touch with.
[12:55.510 --> 13:01.370]  It's the whole ham radio culture because it really is a very fascinating one and it's got a rich history.
[13:02.350 --> 13:02.430]  Yeah.
[13:02.590 --> 13:04.650]  And it was good to run into some old friends.
[13:04.910 --> 13:06.750]  Last year I got to meet Dan Morgan.
[13:06.990 --> 13:08.030]  Yeah, Dan Morgan was there again.
[13:08.210 --> 13:26.010]  And he was on the radio show about a year ago talking about his run-in with the people at DirecTV for his satellite watch newsletter, which they proceeded to shut down and burn, which is one of the great tragedies that I can think of in recent years.
[13:27.070 --> 13:35.990]  And all kinds of other people, too, that just have this insatiable quest for knowledge, which is what we're all about in the hacker community as well.
[13:36.730 --> 13:38.310]  You know, there are people who don't get it.
[13:38.390 --> 13:43.650]  There are people who continue to believe that hackers are criminals, that hackers are the people causing all the problems.
[13:43.650 --> 13:53.390]  But, you know, when you do some research, when you look into it some more, I think you'll find that hackers are the people that are simply figuring it out and telling people how it works.
[13:53.570 --> 13:59.750]  And that's kind of our position here at the radio station to figure things out, let people know exactly what's going on.
[13:59.850 --> 14:01.030]  Sometimes you won't like what you hear.
[14:01.150 --> 14:02.610]  Sometimes it's going to rub you the wrong way.
[14:02.650 --> 14:09.550]  And sometimes you might find out that something you're doing is insecure and you'll be called on it.
[14:09.550 --> 14:22.290]  You know, you find that when people running things are told that they're not doing a good job and given reasons why they're not doing a good job, they tend to react against the people telling them that rather than against the problem itself.
[14:22.590 --> 14:25.650]  And I think that's what you find in the world of computer hackers.
[14:25.830 --> 14:29.210]  They're the ones saying the emperor has no clothes, so therefore they're the problem.
[14:31.630 --> 14:36.370]  So that's something we've been battling for many, many years, and we'll probably always be battling that.
[14:36.370 --> 14:45.270]  But I do know, having hung out with people in Ohio and many other places as well, that there are those people in all communities who do get it.
[14:45.490 --> 14:49.570]  Doesn't matter left, right, big, small, doesn't matter.
[14:50.030 --> 14:58.690]  People all over the place get it and understand the things that we're saying and the technology itself, its uses and abuses.
[14:58.870 --> 15:01.110]  And that's what this radio program is about as well.
[15:01.110 --> 15:05.990]  And we've got a lot of abuses of technology that are happening.
[15:06.190 --> 15:14.170]  Well, I guess we should probably focus on the good news that just came out while I continue to look through all my papers.
[15:14.230 --> 15:17.430]  I mean, I can tell you what the good news is, but I'd like to be able to actually read it.
[15:17.530 --> 15:17.890]  Ah, here it is.
[15:19.270 --> 15:24.110]  It comes straight from the copyright.gov website.
[15:24.770 --> 15:25.210]  Yes, that's right.
[15:25.290 --> 15:27.390]  It's a website called copyright.gov.
[15:27.390 --> 15:34.450]  We've been talking about this thing called CARP, Copyright Arbitration Royalty Panel.
[15:35.300 --> 15:51.330]  And on February 20th of this year, the Copyright Arbitration Royalty Panel delivered its report recommending rates and terms for the statutory license for eligible non-subscription services to perform sound recordings publicly by means of digital audio transmissions known as webcasting.
[15:52.790 --> 16:01.710]  And basically, this is talking about people who broadcast either radio stations or their own material over the Internet.
[16:04.710 --> 16:22.270]  CARP recommended a particular rate structure that would have required all of us who are broadcasting on the Internet to keep track of how many people are connecting, what they're listening to, and pay a fee based on that, which would have been prohibitive for the vast majority of web broadcasters.
[16:22.510 --> 16:36.850]  Well, on May 21st, which is today, the Librarian of Congress, based upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, issued an order rejecting the panel's determination proposing rates and terms for these licenses.
[16:37.450 --> 16:39.310]  It has been rejected.
[16:40.850 --> 16:43.170]  Now, do we know what they're going to do instead?
[16:43.170 --> 16:44.170]  No, we don't.
[16:45.250 --> 16:49.230]  There's a very important sentence that follows here, and there's very little on this web page right now.
[16:49.690 --> 16:58.930]  In such cases, the law provides that the Librarian shall issue his final determination within 30 days of his decision to reject the panel's proposed rates and terms.
[16:59.210 --> 17:02.250]  And that final determination is due on June 20th.
[17:03.050 --> 17:07.230]  So, basically, we don't know anything other than what we've told you right now, that it's been rejected.
[17:07.850 --> 17:10.530]  On June 20th, some more details will be released.
[17:11.390 --> 17:15.730]  Now, this sounds like great news, and I hope it is, but it could also lead to something else.
[17:15.830 --> 17:17.910]  It could lead to... we don't know why he's rejecting it.
[17:17.910 --> 17:20.490]  He might be rejecting it because... or she.
[17:20.590 --> 17:22.290]  I don't know who the Librarian of Congress is.
[17:22.390 --> 17:22.890]  It is a male.
[17:23.010 --> 17:23.410]  Do you know his name?
[17:23.910 --> 17:25.390]  I think it says on the web page.
[17:26.930 --> 17:27.970]  I don't see it here.
[17:28.050 --> 17:30.350]  If you see it, feel free to let me know.
[17:30.770 --> 17:40.010]  But, yeah, I mean, he might say that these rates are way too low, that they have to be much higher.
[17:40.530 --> 17:42.290]  That they have to be ten times the price.
[17:42.410 --> 17:42.790]  I don't know.
[17:43.130 --> 17:46.490]  All we know right now is that he rejected the recommendations.
[17:46.730 --> 18:00.030]  Now, hopefully, he's rejecting the whole concept of actually having to monitor people and what they listen to and hopefully reject the whole concept of actually using webcasting as some kind of fee-based structure, which would completely destroy the whole purpose of it.
[18:00.970 --> 18:09.910]  It certainly would cripple what we do here at WBAI in our webcasting and certainly would cripple what Off the Hook does by having radio programs archived.
[18:10.050 --> 18:11.710]  We'd have to keep track of what everybody does.
[18:11.950 --> 18:21.630]  And even if we didn't have to pay anything, even if we just had to keep track, that in itself would be enough to completely keep us from doing anything else useful.
[18:22.310 --> 18:23.510]  His name wasn't on that page, was it?
[18:23.610 --> 18:23.810]  No.
[18:23.950 --> 18:26.770]  You have to click this link, but that's impossible on the printed copy.
[18:26.790 --> 18:27.310]  Oh, it's a piece of paper.
[18:27.430 --> 18:28.350]  I can't click the link there.
[18:28.370 --> 18:28.650]  That's right.
[18:29.710 --> 18:29.990]  Okay.
[18:30.110 --> 18:30.770]  Well, so much for that.
[18:30.970 --> 18:33.850]  If you really want to know, you can go to the website and find out for yourself.
[18:34.130 --> 18:34.270]  Mm-hmm.
[18:35.610 --> 18:36.270]  Orjak, you still there?
[18:38.090 --> 18:38.650]  Orjak has...
[18:38.650 --> 18:39.390]  Yes, I'm still here.
[18:39.390 --> 18:39.730]  Ah, okay.
[18:40.230 --> 18:40.950]  Losing interest, eh?
[18:41.290 --> 18:41.510]  Hey.
[18:41.870 --> 18:42.150]  Okay.
[18:42.310 --> 18:43.470]  I had my phone muted.
[18:43.470 --> 18:47.750]  Okay, well, that's good news as far as webcasters.
[18:47.870 --> 18:52.070]  I'm sure many people out there will be rejoicing on this.
[18:52.210 --> 18:55.030]  I'm actually trying to look up the name of the Librarian of Congress.
[18:55.210 --> 18:58.170]  Well, you know, it's not really that important, but if you find out, great.
[18:59.690 --> 19:01.930]  Here's some other news, and this is kind of funny.
[19:02.690 --> 19:14.630]  Technology buffs have cracked music publishing giant Sony Music's elaborate disk copy protection technology with a decidedly low-tech method, scribbling around the rim of a disk with a felt-tip marker.
[19:15.450 --> 19:16.490]  That's right.
[19:18.990 --> 19:32.610]  Internet news groups have been circulating news of the discovery for the past week, and in typical news group style, users have pilloried Sony for deploying high-tech copy protection that can be defeated by paying a visit to a stationary store.
[19:36.250 --> 19:43.810]  The theory now is that they'll ban magic markers, that they'll say magic markers are a tool to circumvent copy protection.
[19:45.070 --> 19:45.750]  Unbelievable.
[19:46.210 --> 19:52.390]  So, yeah, okay, we've established that their copy protection schemes suck, that they are absolutely useless.
[19:53.910 --> 20:01.530]  And simply by scribbling a particular part of the disk out, you can completely defeat that.
[20:01.970 --> 20:11.270]  Basically, Sony's proprietary technology deployed on many recent releases works by adding a track to the copy-protected disk that contains bogus data.
[20:12.170 --> 20:18.330]  Now, because computer hard drives are programmed to read data files first, the computer will continuously try to play the bogus track.
[20:18.470 --> 20:22.030]  It never gets to play the music tracks located elsewhere on the computer disk.
[20:22.030 --> 20:32.970]  And the effect is that the copy-protected disk will play on standard CD players, but not on computer CD-ROMs and some portable devices and even some car stereo systems.
[20:34.430 --> 20:42.430]  Now, some Apple Macintosh users have reported that playing the disk in the computer's CD drive causes the computer to crash.
[20:42.870 --> 20:49.370]  The cover of the copy-protected disks contain a warning that the album will not play on Macintoshes or other personal computers.
[20:49.750 --> 20:52.570]  And Apple has since posted a warning on its website.
[20:52.570 --> 20:57.450]  In fact, we have that warning right here, where they basically describe the symptom.
[20:57.630 --> 21:00.670]  You insert an audio disk, which is not recognized by the computer.
[21:00.890 --> 21:02.530]  The audio disk will not eject.
[21:02.830 --> 21:07.650]  And the computer starts up to a gray screen when the disk is in the optical drive.
[21:08.090 --> 21:13.890]  Products affected any Macintosh computer with an optical drive capable of accepting CD-ROM audio disks.
[21:14.890 --> 21:16.230]  Now, they offer this solution.
[21:16.230 --> 21:21.370]  A small number of audio disks use a copy-protection technology that can prevent the disk from being read by a computer.
[21:21.550 --> 21:23.910]  This may also prevent the disk from being ejected.
[21:24.090 --> 21:27.850]  The audio disks are technically and legally not compact disks.
[21:28.130 --> 21:31.070]  And the CD logo has been removed from the disk.
[21:31.250 --> 21:36.730]  But in the logo's former place is a printed message will not play on PC slash Mac.
[21:37.210 --> 21:39.790]  This appears both on the cover and on the disk.
[21:39.990 --> 21:43.110]  Inserting this disk in a computer may cause the system to stop responding.
[21:43.110 --> 21:49.270]  It might not be possible to eject the disk on computers without a manual eject hole.
[21:49.810 --> 21:51.530]  Porkchop, you're familiar with Macintoshes.
[21:52.070 --> 21:54.750]  Are there Macintoshes actually don't have the manual eject hole?
[21:55.150 --> 21:59.750]  There are a few that it's very difficult to find the manual eject hole on.
[21:59.850 --> 22:00.830]  I believe...
[22:00.830 --> 22:03.830]  I don't think I can recall having seen one that don't.
[22:05.130 --> 22:06.990]  The earlier iMacs...
[22:06.990 --> 22:11.210]  Sorry, the newer iMacs or whatnot may not.
[22:11.970 --> 22:20.090]  What I've been hearing from some people actually is that the firmware gets overwritten on some of these CD drives.
[22:20.350 --> 22:23.850]  And actually there's another person right now in the studio who knows a little bit more about that.
[22:24.030 --> 22:29.270]  The latest iMacs that look like desk lamps apparently do not have manual eject holes.
[22:29.370 --> 22:29.910]  Oh, great.
[22:30.150 --> 22:32.830]  So if you have a brand new one, you can break it by doing this.
[22:32.830 --> 22:39.490]  And it's apparently a fairly non-trivial matter to get it taken apart to the point where it can be ejected.
[22:40.030 --> 22:41.410]  But then you have to take it apart.
[22:42.410 --> 22:46.930]  Well, here's what is being recommended on the Apple.com page.
[22:46.930 --> 23:01.550]  If you still cannot eject the disk, if a disk with copyright protection technology remains inside the drive after following the procedures above, or if the computer does not start up normally, it is recommended that you contact an Apple-authorized service provider or Apple technical support.
[23:02.230 --> 23:07.650]  Audio disks that incorporate copyright protection technologies do not adhere to published compact disc standards.
[23:08.210 --> 23:11.910]  Apple designs its optical disk drives to support media that conform to such standards.
[23:11.970 --> 23:15.510]  In other words, it's not our fault that this is happening to you.
[23:15.650 --> 23:23.370]  And you actually have to take your computer in to be fixed for putting a copy-protected CD in certain computers.
[23:23.370 --> 23:33.130]  Now, this, to me, is nothing short of vandalism of your computer by these companies that are trying to protect or enhance their profits.
[23:33.550 --> 23:47.230]  I just cannot believe that they are not being hauled into court right away for doing this to people's computer systems, people who are trying to use disks in computers that they have bought, disks they have bought as well.
[23:47.710 --> 23:50.130]  And this is how they're being treated.
[23:50.350 --> 23:51.450]  It's simply unbelievable.
[23:51.450 --> 23:56.010]  It's far worse than any amount of copying of music that has taken place.
[23:56.170 --> 23:58.110]  I mean, you can say what you want about Napster.
[23:58.110 --> 24:01.470]  You can say what you want about music piracy.
[24:01.470 --> 24:08.070]  But I don't recall this kind of effect where people's property is destroyed in this particular way.
[24:08.290 --> 24:10.710]  Now, we have a list of bad CDs.
[24:11.330 --> 24:11.950]  No kidding.
[24:12.030 --> 24:18.590]  We actually have a list of CDs that people have catalogued in this way.
[24:18.750 --> 24:20.750]  Star Wars Episode II Soundtrack.
[24:20.750 --> 24:21.410]  That's right.
[24:21.730 --> 24:23.290]  And the Spider-Man soundtrack.
[24:25.310 --> 24:28.150]  These disks are reported corrupt in the UK and Holland.
[24:28.410 --> 24:31.410]  There is a message saying we'll not play on PC Mac on the packaging.
[24:32.070 --> 24:38.790]  On a Pioneer 626D DVD player, the audio sounds very thin, like AM radio, and yet other CDs play without a problem.
[24:39.530 --> 24:41.730]  A computer fails completely to play the disk.
[24:41.850 --> 24:45.490]  The Dutch version is reported to skip and have poor sound quality on a Philips CD player, etc.
[24:45.490 --> 24:49.470]  They go into a lot more detail as far as the quality of the disk, too.
[24:49.470 --> 24:51.570]  So, I'll just read you the titles.
[24:51.810 --> 25:02.090]  White Ladder by David Gray, More Fast and Furious, Laundry Service by Shakira, many recent Sony releases, including Epic or Columbia labels.
[25:02.470 --> 25:11.430]  A New Day Has Come by Celine Dion, Green-Eyed Soul by Sarah Khanna, Jay to the L.O., the remixes by Jennifer Lopez.
[25:12.190 --> 25:17.050]  This is the remix by Destiny's Child, MTV Unplugged 2.0 by Lauren Hill.
[25:17.050 --> 25:21.350]  Heart to Yours by Michelle Williams and Masquerade by Whistler Jean.
[25:22.830 --> 25:24.330]  Better Days by Joe.
[25:24.530 --> 25:25.690]  Greatest Hits by Five.
[25:25.870 --> 25:28.770]  White Lily's Island by Natalie Imbruglia.
[25:29.450 --> 25:31.250]  Flickering Flame by Roger Waters.
[25:32.210 --> 25:35.390]  Cream Anthems, Spring 2002.
[25:35.770 --> 25:38.350]  The Gallery, The Mind's Eye by Dark Tranquility.
[25:38.950 --> 25:41.850]  Global Underground, Moscow by Deep Dish.
[25:42.010 --> 25:44.010]  Greatest Hits Chapter 1 by The Backstreet Boys.
[25:44.650 --> 25:46.410]  World of Our Own by Westlife.
[25:46.410 --> 25:48.790]  Life Gold by Steps, All This Time by Sting.
[25:49.570 --> 25:53.110]  Take Off Your Pant and Jackets by Blink-182.
[25:53.430 --> 25:55.670]  Cartoon Medley by The Cartoon Network.
[25:56.010 --> 26:00.270]  The Best of Blondie, Genesis One by VNV Nation.
[26:00.830 --> 26:02.750]  Rain on Lens by Smog.
[26:03.290 --> 26:05.570]  Superstylin' by Groove Armada.
[26:05.970 --> 26:07.210]  Celebrity by NSYNC.
[26:07.310 --> 26:08.610]  The Best of Deacon Blue.
[26:09.110 --> 26:10.690]  Very Best Of by Robert Palmer.
[26:10.890 --> 26:12.670]  And Anthology by Bob Newhart.
[26:13.330 --> 26:15.190]  I Am Sam's Soundtrack.
[26:15.190 --> 26:17.510]  Pieces in a Modern Style by William Orbit.
[26:17.770 --> 26:19.450]  Simple Things by Zero Seven.
[26:19.750 --> 26:20.730]  Four Heroes' new album.
[26:21.330 --> 26:24.070]  The Michael Jackson promo single, You Rock My World.
[26:24.270 --> 26:26.610]  And Charlie Pryde, a tribute to Jim Reeves.
[26:26.690 --> 26:32.590]  That's one of the ones that we've been following for a couple of years, actually, with all kinds of copy protection in it.
[26:33.230 --> 26:39.410]  So, any of those discs will not play on computers and may actually destroy your computer.
[26:39.810 --> 26:54.190]  Now, when the computer companies actually see this, when they actually find a way to get around it, which is a quick, short order, I'm sure, and they change it a little bit to maybe, you know, eject the CD instead of hard crash the computer, they're going to get sued,
[26:54.250 --> 26:54.590]  aren't they?
[26:54.590 --> 26:56.130]  I would imagine so.
[26:56.350 --> 26:58.750]  I would imagine there's litigation already being planned on this.
[26:59.170 --> 27:01.230]  I just can't believe they thought they could get away with it.
[27:01.690 --> 27:02.530]  It's incredible.
[27:03.790 --> 27:05.030]  It's really something.
[27:05.190 --> 27:05.570]  It really is.
[27:05.650 --> 27:10.110]  This is what they will resort to, to bolster their profits.
[27:10.370 --> 27:18.310]  They will actually destroy your equipment for daring to try and play a CD in a CD player, which is what every computer is.
[27:18.590 --> 27:19.950]  Every computer has a CD player.
[27:20.070 --> 27:26.610]  How dare they issue something that they forbid you from using in particular pieces of hardware that you already own.
[27:27.610 --> 27:46.650]  What I suggest, and what I hope many, many people do, since these are not CDs, and we all agree they are not CDs, they don't fit the classification of CDs, go to your local record store, find these records, find these CDs that have been misplaced into the CD section of your store,
[27:46.730 --> 27:48.770]  and move them someplace else.
[27:49.410 --> 27:52.550]  That is the only way that we'll get the message across.
[27:54.190 --> 27:54.630]  Unbelievable.
[27:56.870 --> 28:09.330]  Injustices like that, if you're tuning into this program for the first time, because you're expecting to hear Mike Levine, who's not on this week, but will be on next week, yeah, we come on at 8 o'clock usually, and we're on for an hour, and we talk about things like this.
[28:09.510 --> 28:13.230]  We talk about technology and its uses, and many abuses.
[28:13.570 --> 28:19.190]  And this is just another abuse against individual people that is being perpetrated on us.
[28:19.950 --> 28:27.110]  And it's probably one of the more bizarre cases, but it manifests itself in many different ways.
[28:27.790 --> 28:38.090]  Occasionally, people like us get sued because we dare to tell people how DVDs work, and that case actually is hopefully headed for the Supreme Court.
[28:38.390 --> 28:41.010]  And if we don't make it to the Supreme Court, somebody else will.
[28:41.110 --> 28:44.970]  We're just going to keep fighting until we get an audience who will understand.
[28:44.970 --> 28:52.270]  I know the audience that's out there understands, but it's something that I guess you've got to reach mainstream America.
[28:52.570 --> 28:58.110]  And having been in Dayton, Ohio, I can say I talk to a lot of mainstream America, and they understand.
[28:58.450 --> 28:59.510]  They see what's going on.
[28:59.770 --> 29:01.730]  And the world's being pulled over their eyes.
[29:01.850 --> 29:05.370]  We're being told that people aren't capable of understanding certain technological issues.
[29:05.490 --> 29:05.970]  It's not true.
[29:05.970 --> 29:06.690]  It really isn't.
[29:06.790 --> 29:11.410]  Once you describe things in a particular way, people do get it.
[29:11.990 --> 29:17.050]  You know, it's... I mean, explaining the DVD case to people was difficult.
[29:17.430 --> 29:23.850]  Because how do you explain that the difference between decrypting a file and copying a file?
[29:24.030 --> 29:29.790]  You know, for the average person who has no interest whatsoever in computers, I can see it being a little bit difficult.
[29:30.310 --> 29:36.010]  But once you're able to do that, once you're able to actually get the explanation out there, it does make a difference.
[29:36.250 --> 29:36.630]  All right.
[29:36.670 --> 29:37.550]  Let's give out our phone number.
[29:37.630 --> 29:40.230]  2-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0 is the pledge line.
[29:40.330 --> 29:45.430]  We need to hear from people out there as far as supporting this radio station.
[29:45.510 --> 29:46.830]  We're going to have a special premium.
[29:46.990 --> 29:47.330]  We have one.
[29:47.410 --> 29:47.710]  Thank you.
[29:47.830 --> 29:48.010]  Go ahead.
[29:48.170 --> 29:48.730]  We have one.
[29:49.070 --> 29:49.630]  Thank you.
[29:50.550 --> 29:54.630]  It's from someone who's very good at being the first person to call, Mr. Rebel.
[29:54.850 --> 29:55.790]  Rebel actually made a pledge.
[29:55.850 --> 29:56.770]  Rebel made a pledge.
[29:56.990 --> 29:58.830]  So he can't be our only pledge.
[29:58.830 --> 30:00.930]  So we better get some more people to call.
[30:01.090 --> 30:01.190]  Okay.
[30:01.250 --> 30:04.350]  Well, we're going to send people out there to make sure that Rebel... The $400?
[30:05.170 --> 30:05.530]  No.
[30:05.610 --> 30:06.390]  Rebel didn't pledge $400.
[30:06.550 --> 30:07.290]  Oh, but down to $100.
[30:07.290 --> 30:07.890]  How'd that happen?
[30:08.050 --> 30:09.710]  I've never seen the pledge go down before.
[30:09.930 --> 30:10.930]  Well, they reset it to zero.
[30:11.130 --> 30:11.350]  Okay.
[30:11.370 --> 30:12.230]  I guess that's what happened.
[30:12.530 --> 30:12.650]  Yeah.
[30:12.810 --> 30:15.770]  I thought maybe people took back their pledges when they heard their Rebel.
[30:17.590 --> 30:18.390]  But thanks, Rebel.
[30:18.510 --> 30:19.430]  Thanks for the pledge.
[30:19.690 --> 30:27.190]  So people who want to replace Rebel can call 212-209-2950 and please give us someone else to thank.
[30:28.250 --> 30:28.690]  Absolutely.
[30:30.770 --> 30:35.590]  Well, I guess we should talk about the film because that's kind of what the theme of this show is going to be tonight.
[30:36.050 --> 30:42.930]  Again, we're on until 10 o'clock, but we're also joining forces with enough said and we could be here as long as midnight for all we know.
[30:44.750 --> 30:46.210]  The film is out.
[30:46.450 --> 30:52.230]  We were showing it at the Dayton Ham Fest and it got quite a good reaction.
[30:52.390 --> 30:56.770]  It's gotten a good reaction in just about all the places that we have shown it.
[30:57.550 --> 30:58.910]  In fact, here's a copy of it right here.
[30:59.430 --> 31:00.910]  I'm going to toss it over to you, Porkchop.
[31:01.390 --> 31:02.050]  What do you think?
[31:02.310 --> 31:03.690]  How's the reaction been on your end?
[31:04.110 --> 31:05.730]  My end of the reaction has been pretty good, actually.
[31:06.390 --> 31:14.050]  I showed it actually at Marist College up in Poughkeepsie and at a film class there.
[31:14.270 --> 31:18.990]  And there were a couple of people who, you know, sat in the back and were disinterested as normal college students are.
[31:19.350 --> 31:26.270]  And then there were some that really took an interest and, you know, stopped me after the class was over and asked, you know, how did we do it?
[31:26.270 --> 31:28.470]  Oh, that's, you know, too bad about what happened to Kevin.
[31:29.010 --> 31:31.010]  I didn't know that things like that happened before.
[31:31.130 --> 31:34.590]  And one girl said, I knew nothing about hacking before I saw this.
[31:34.630 --> 31:37.630]  And you guys did a really great job in making it not boring.
[31:38.630 --> 31:44.250]  And so it's been appreciated pretty much by anybody who actually watched it.
[31:44.530 --> 31:48.390]  Yeah, it's quite a feeling to actually hear from people who have seen it.
[31:48.450 --> 31:50.190]  This is their first taste of the hacker world.
[31:50.770 --> 31:54.390]  And they actually understand the points that are being made.
[31:54.570 --> 31:55.570]  We got this terrific letter.
[31:55.650 --> 31:56.330]  I want to read this letter.
[31:56.490 --> 31:58.310]  This is probably one of the best letters I've ever seen.
[31:59.010 --> 32:00.730]  Because it really, it really hits me.
[32:01.690 --> 32:03.470]  Because it's exactly what we were trying to do.
[32:03.590 --> 32:05.210]  Exactly the people we were trying to reach.
[32:05.870 --> 32:07.850]  Greetings off the hook and Freedom Downtime crew.
[32:08.590 --> 32:11.650]  Just wanted to let you know I saw Freedom Downtime this week and loved it.
[32:11.830 --> 32:20.130]  I have to give you all credit for having the integrity to not only show the hacker viewpoint, but also fairly represent the viewpoint of those who wronged Kevin Mitnick.
[32:20.510 --> 32:23.210]  It is one thing to whine that people aren't being fair.
[32:23.410 --> 32:30.570]  Another to show their perspective and then use critical thinking and good communication to explain why their actions are not fair to the hacker community.
[32:31.250 --> 32:41.230]  Beyond that, you managed to produce a film that has effectively told the story of several wronged social engineers without being so arrogant that no one outside the hacker community could understand what you were talking about.
[32:41.530 --> 32:45.430]  My computer skills and interests stop at email, word processing, and Minesweeper.
[32:45.610 --> 32:50.330]  But I have deep respect for those who work to understand and educate others about modern technology.
[32:50.630 --> 32:54.730]  I never would have heard about Freedom Downtime if my husband weren't a faithful listener of Off the Hook.
[32:54.950 --> 33:00.590]  But I'm so glad he ordered the film and even happier that it was made in such a way to hold my interest for two hours.
[33:01.190 --> 33:05.070]  Last week on Off the Hook, you mentioned that you hadn't received any criticisms about the film.
[33:05.190 --> 33:06.050]  I can understand why.
[33:06.470 --> 33:10.670]  I do, however, have a question about the stories of Kevin, Bernie, and others interviewed for the film.
[33:10.910 --> 33:18.950]  It was mentioned that there is no centralized group with the resources to protect hackers when they are harassed by police and other government agencies.
[33:19.350 --> 33:30.610]  Although I agree that such an organization is needed and that a separate court and penal system should probably be established to handle techno crime, it seems to me that the real problem here is that civil rights are being totally ignored.
[33:30.990 --> 33:38.130]  Maybe I've missed something because I am not a regular follower of these cases, but I was really surprised to hear that the ACLU hadn't been contacted for help.
[33:38.510 --> 33:49.650]  Regardless of the truth to a charge, the severity of a crime or the hysterical panic in the court systems, there are some things that are simply not allowed in our Constitution.
[33:50.210 --> 33:56.030]  Obviously, sitting in jail for a week to say nothing of years without a bail hearing is asinine.
[33:56.790 --> 34:03.790]  So is the idea that gross intimidation and theft, there is no other word, of computer systems, teaches hackers a lesson about invading other systems.
[34:03.930 --> 34:07.710]  So I want to know, did anyone get the ACLU involved in any of these cases?
[34:07.750 --> 34:09.370]  And if not, why not?
[34:09.470 --> 34:15.750]  If the ACLU and NAACP can fight for the civil rights of racial minorities, homosexuals, and the obese, why not hackers?
[34:16.370 --> 34:19.170]  Thanks for raising awareness of this problem, and best of luck with your fundraiser.
[34:19.330 --> 34:20.270]  Signed, Chris from the Netherlands.
[34:21.110 --> 34:27.150]  And really glad we got a letter like this because it shows that we can reach people in all different communities.
[34:27.210 --> 34:31.430]  As far as the ACLU, yeah, you know, the ACLU has been contacted numerous times.
[34:32.150 --> 34:36.050]  Unfortunately, the response has been less than spectacular.
[34:36.430 --> 34:45.270]  I think that a lot of the conceptions about hackers have made it into their opinions as well.
[34:46.370 --> 34:57.070]  We need a group that actually is able to understand technologically what is going on here and see the subtleties of rights violations on a technological scale.
[34:57.670 --> 35:07.330]  It's my hope that the ACLU will come on board and will be a valuable part of hacker defense in the future because we're certainly going to see a lot of prosecutions.
[35:08.310 --> 35:09.770]  That moment is not now though.
[35:10.250 --> 35:12.670]  I certainly hope that it comes soon.
[35:14.110 --> 35:24.890]  So what we're going to do is we're going to play a little bit of Freedom Downtime and give out our phone number, 212-209-2950.
[35:25.350 --> 35:28.650]  We have a Freedom Downtime package.
[35:29.050 --> 35:31.790]  Actually, we have a couple of Freedom Downtime packages.
[35:32.390 --> 35:44.530]  For a pledge of $75, you can receive a copy of Freedom Downtime, the two-hour documentary on the Kevin Mitnick movement, the free Kevin movement, and the hacker culture.
[35:44.750 --> 35:45.590]  Two hours.
[35:45.810 --> 35:48.790]  It's a lot of material and a lot of variety too.
[35:50.750 --> 35:55.030]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[35:57.510 --> 36:05.950]  And for a pledge of $75, you will get the Freedom Downtime package in addition to a t-shirt.
[36:07.170 --> 36:08.830]  Our brand new corporate t-shirt.
[36:09.450 --> 36:10.910]  Can you understand what they're saying on there?
[36:11.250 --> 36:12.590]  Keep looking at the board.
[36:12.650 --> 36:13.050]  What are they saying?
[36:13.210 --> 36:15.250]  It says repeat the phone number many times.
[36:15.450 --> 36:17.190]  Okay, well, I am repeating the phone number many times.
[36:17.750 --> 36:18.670]  212-209-2950.
[36:18.670 --> 36:22.070]  Maybe somebody could just repeat it while I talk sort of as, you know, a background noise.
[36:23.150 --> 36:24.390]  No, let's not do that instead.
[36:24.610 --> 36:26.090]  212-209-2950.
[36:26.310 --> 36:27.250]  Okay, we know the phone number.
[36:27.330 --> 36:28.750]  212-209-2950.
[36:29.010 --> 36:31.130]  Where's the little thing that lights up and tells you how many calls?
[36:31.130 --> 36:31.510]  Oh, there it is.
[36:31.850 --> 36:32.390]  It's hidden.
[36:34.830 --> 36:35.230]  Okay.
[36:35.750 --> 36:36.450]  Put that over there.
[36:37.230 --> 36:37.930]  That's good work.
[36:38.110 --> 36:39.590]  Maybe somebody could prop it up.
[36:39.790 --> 36:40.750]  It doesn't happen again.
[36:41.630 --> 36:46.090]  According to that, assuming it's plugged in, we have zero calls on the line.
[36:46.590 --> 36:47.410]  Zero calls.
[36:48.010 --> 36:49.890]  It's 212-209-2950.
[36:50.330 --> 36:51.350]  We have $200.
[36:51.730 --> 36:52.870]  So obviously it's ringing.
[36:52.950 --> 36:53.590]  Obviously it works.
[36:54.890 --> 36:55.870]  Oh, there it goes.
[36:56.010 --> 36:56.530]  Okay, it's ringing.
[36:56.670 --> 37:00.310]  And hopefully that's somebody that actually is calling to make a pledge, not just to make the light light up.
[37:00.790 --> 37:04.090]  212-209-2950 is the phone number.
[37:05.050 --> 37:13.130]  And for a pledge of $75, you'll get a copy of our documentary, Freedom Downtime, which runs two hours and one minute.
[37:14.090 --> 37:16.150]  And you'll also get a corporate t-shirt.
[37:16.230 --> 37:27.070]  Now, when we say corporate t-shirt, what we mean is a list of all the lawsuits that we have been subjected to over the past however many years we've been publishing, along with a really terrific graphic on the front that kind of symbolizes the whole thing.
[37:28.190 --> 37:30.250]  You'll get all that for a pledge of $75.
[37:30.490 --> 37:43.310]  Now, for a pledge of $125, you'll get all of that, plus a pair of tickets to the H2K2 convention, which is taking place this July in New York City, July 12th through 14th.
[37:43.390 --> 37:50.710]  Now, considering the conference cost $50, if you add $50 to $75, that comes out to $125.
[37:51.050 --> 37:52.950]  So you're really getting a good deal here.
[37:53.910 --> 37:57.270]  212-209-2950, pledge for any of those packages.
[37:57.750 --> 38:03.850]  Also, you might want to consider just pledging for the sake of pledging, because that's what it's all about, supporting the radio station.
[38:03.990 --> 38:05.370]  212-209-2950.
[38:05.530 --> 38:15.170]  Without further ado, I'd like to play the first part of Freedom Downtime, the first of several pieces that we're going to have here.
[38:16.190 --> 38:22.350]  What you're going to hear are a couple of people talking about the hacking community, what hacking is all about.
[38:22.990 --> 38:32.050]  You'll hear somebody outside of McDonald's playing with some radio frequencies and doing something that they probably shouldn't be doing, but it's funny all the same.
[38:32.390 --> 38:39.590]  You'll hear the Kevin Mitnick timeline, kind of a background history as to what was happening with Kevin and what put him where he was at that particular time.
[38:40.590 --> 38:49.890]  Also, preparations for the first Hackers on Planet Earth conference and an explanation of the solitary confinement that Kevin Mitnick had to go through.
[38:50.430 --> 39:06.830]  You'll hear from people such as John Lepkowski, Reba Vartanian, who is Kevin Mitnick's grandmother, Alex Casper, Jeff Moss, Katie Hefner, Bruce Sterling, Wynne Schwartow, Roger Slates, and at the very end, you'll hear something absolutely amazing.
[39:07.030 --> 39:09.270]  You'll hear the sound of the media.
[39:09.590 --> 39:10.030]  That's right.
[39:10.410 --> 39:15.950]  This is one of those things that you just have to see to believe, and unfortunately, this is radio, so you're only going to be able to hear it.
[39:16.770 --> 39:21.110]  But let's listen to the first part of Freedom Downtime.
[39:21.410 --> 39:23.790]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[39:24.010 --> 39:24.750]  Please call in.
[39:24.810 --> 39:25.310]  Pledge now.
[39:25.430 --> 39:26.410]  Receive a copy of the film.
[39:26.550 --> 39:28.770]  Receive tickets to H2K2 and a T-shirt.
[39:29.450 --> 39:31.650]  Most of all, support the radio station.
[39:31.810 --> 39:34.690]  212-209-2950.
[39:34.950 --> 39:43.170]  If you go somewhere you're not supposed to be and bring something back to show people, that always struck me as being a whole lot like a panty raid.
[39:43.870 --> 39:49.830]  And you know, panty raids are really in the grandest tradition of this country.
[39:50.130 --> 39:56.290]  Try to make your way in there, get the stuff, and get back out with it without getting your head cut off.
[39:56.290 --> 40:03.230]  Yeah, what we're doing here is we're talking on McDonald's, the external speaker for their drive-through.
[40:03.490 --> 40:06.990]  And what we're doing to do that is we have a modified ham radio.
[40:07.630 --> 40:13.110]  Modified meaning it transmits on frequencies other than the ones it was intended to transmit on.
[40:13.590 --> 40:17.410]  And in this case, it's the standard business band frequencies.
[40:20.330 --> 40:24.390]  154.6 MHz seems to be the standard McDonald's frequency.
[40:27.010 --> 40:29.310]  Hey, uh, the blonde, would you please kneel down for a second?
[40:30.430 --> 40:32.770]  Could, uh, one of you please take off your tops?
[40:32.870 --> 40:33.850]  We'll give you the food for free.
[40:34.090 --> 40:35.670]  Those bastards, you better stop getting smart.
[40:36.570 --> 40:37.590]  Here comes the manager.
[40:37.810 --> 40:38.250]  Really?
[40:45.910 --> 40:52.070]  While corporate America would always be the playground of hackers, it was mostly about fun and exploration, not damage or profit.
[40:52.410 --> 40:54.470]  But try telling that to corporate America.
[40:55.250 --> 40:57.870]  Kevin Mitnick had already paid a heavy price for his curiosity.
[40:58.150 --> 41:02.670]  He had served a year and a half in 1988 for logging into DEC computers without authorization.
[41:02.990 --> 41:11.150]  By simply looking at the VMS operating system, DEC claimed he caused millions of dollars in damage, and he was sentenced as if he had caused that amount of physical damage.
[41:11.570 --> 41:18.310]  He was also held without bail, and they put him in solitary confinement for eight months because they thought he could do even more damage from the prison payphone.
[41:19.230 --> 41:27.350]  After his sentence, Kevin had to serve three years of supervised release, reporting to the authorities every month, and being restricted in where he could go and what he could do.
[41:27.570 --> 41:37.730]  And he only had a few days to go when federal authorities decided he had violated the terms of his supervised release by associating with Lewis De Payne and accessing someone's voicemail without permission.
[41:38.230 --> 41:40.650]  It was nothing, but it was enough.
[41:41.370 --> 41:50.310]  Knowing how the media and the court system would crucify him over any offense because he could start World War III from a payphone, Kevin decided to just walk away.
[41:50.310 --> 41:51.970]  I was devastated.
[41:52.990 --> 41:55.450]  We were never far away from each other.
[41:56.630 --> 42:04.730]  Uh, and how was he living on his own without his family to share things with?
[42:05.770 --> 42:07.070]  It was horrible.
[42:07.630 --> 42:08.950]  What kind of a life is this?
[42:09.110 --> 42:10.890]  He is not streetwise.
[42:12.550 --> 42:14.170]  He's a home person.
[42:14.170 --> 42:16.370]  Kevin managed to avoid attention.
[42:17.010 --> 42:20.710]  Then, on July 4th, 1994, everything changed.
[42:21.010 --> 42:26.790]  A front page story in the New York Times turned Kevin Mitnick into a household word all over again.
[42:27.450 --> 42:38.030]  The evil looking picture, the mythical stories about breaking into NORAD computers and controlling all the telephones in California, even the security-specific news release tale was retold as fact.
[42:39.290 --> 42:45.310]  Nobody could figure out how the story made it onto the front page of the Times, since there was nothing new in the story.
[42:46.210 --> 42:47.730]  But the author was no stranger.
[42:48.530 --> 42:52.730]  John Markoff, who was quickly becoming a Mitnick expert without ever having met him.
[42:52.990 --> 42:55.650]  We looked at the story as an amusement back then.
[42:55.870 --> 42:59.750]  A bunch of us were putting together the first Hackers on Planet Earth conference that August.
[42:59.970 --> 43:03.850]  The story had gotten so big that we all walked around with Mitnick masks.
[43:05.490 --> 43:08.330]  They came here to the Hotel Pennsylvania by the hundreds.
[43:08.730 --> 43:13.430]  These usually anonymous creatures of the cyber world, better known as Hackers, were holding a convention.
[43:13.630 --> 43:16.610]  Throughout that weekend, Kevin called in several times to say hi.
[43:16.850 --> 43:20.010]  We all wished he could be there, but we knew why he was running.
[43:20.630 --> 43:25.530]  One of the things Markoff hadn't mentioned in his article was the eight months of solitary confinement.
[43:25.530 --> 43:29.330]  You know, the guy was in solitary confinement for eight months.
[43:30.030 --> 43:31.350]  Eight months.
[43:31.630 --> 43:32.170]  Think about it.
[43:32.790 --> 43:36.610]  I mean, that would definitely change a man to a several degree.
[43:36.670 --> 43:37.150]  You would run.
[43:37.330 --> 43:42.350]  You would not want that, because it was eight months, not for anything he did, but because the judge was scared.
[43:42.710 --> 43:53.630]  And if you get someone who is that unaware of actually what he can do and thinks that he can destroy the world, if you have someone that has that much power over you who will put you in solitary confinement, you're going to run.
[43:53.870 --> 43:55.110]  Makes perfect sense to me.
[43:55.330 --> 44:04.430]  I think it's part hype, part hysteria, part lack of understanding and part fear.
[44:04.710 --> 44:15.150]  Solitary confinement means no books, no pencil, no paper, no company, nothing to do but stare at these small four walls.
[44:15.350 --> 44:20.210]  You would get out one hour a day and that's it.
[44:20.970 --> 44:23.290]  Well, you know, he might whistle up some missile launch codes.
[44:23.510 --> 44:25.350]  You know, that's a big problem with hackers nowadays.
[44:25.350 --> 44:28.570]  They get a little pissed off and they launch some nukes by whistling, you know.
[44:29.830 --> 44:31.690]  The fear factor is just insane.
[44:32.010 --> 44:38.310]  Once or twice or maybe more, I can't even remember, but they didn't even bring him down to the visitor's room.
[44:38.450 --> 44:46.370]  They took my daughter and I upstairs to a floor that wasn't occupied at that time.
[44:46.370 --> 44:49.030]  We were the only ones there and the guard.
[44:49.270 --> 44:54.910]  They were hovering over him as though he was an absolute monster.
[44:55.170 --> 44:56.690]  What could he possibly do?
[44:57.750 --> 44:58.610]  You know?
[44:59.670 --> 45:05.090]  Could he make a computer out of the telephone?
[45:06.070 --> 45:08.790]  Or... I don't know what they were afraid of.
[45:09.650 --> 45:12.270]  First of all, he had no desire to.
[45:12.530 --> 45:14.850]  Secondly, it wouldn't have accomplished anything.
[45:15.250 --> 45:16.750]  Thirdly, he couldn't do it.
[45:18.350 --> 45:21.350]  Kevin managed to elude the authorities into the next year.
[45:21.690 --> 45:27.150]  Then, on February 15th, 1995, they found him in Raleigh, North Carolina.
[45:27.530 --> 45:31.350]  The FBI's most wanted computer hacker is behind bars.
[45:31.810 --> 45:36.790]  Kevin Mitnick was jailed without bond in Raleigh, North Carolina, where he was arrested this week.
[45:37.050 --> 45:40.530]  He's accused of breaking into corporate computers nationwide.
[45:41.030 --> 45:47.330]  Private computer experts say so many other hackers are at work that privacy is virtually impossible.
[45:47.630 --> 45:58.850]  The FBI had managed to track Kevin with the help of a mysterious computer expert, Tsutomu Shimomura, who, along with some friends, had managed to track Kevin's cellular phone signal to the apartment he was staying in.
[45:59.510 --> 46:07.750]  One of Shimomura's friends who was there while the cellular signal was being traced was none other than John Markoff, who wrote an even bigger front page story this time.
[46:08.090 --> 46:19.070]  Sure enough, I opened the door the next day to the hotel room, and there was the time outside the door, and I picked it up and I just thought, oh my god.
[46:19.870 --> 46:35.190]  This article had a whole new list of things that Kevin had supposedly done, including breaking into Shimomura's ultra-secure computer, leaving nasty voicemail messages, and stealing 20,000 credit card numbers, something that was mentioned in the first paragraph on the front page.
[46:36.190 --> 46:42.070]  But 13 paragraphs later on page D17, it was revealed that he had never used any of them.
[46:42.350 --> 46:48.310]  In fact, this was a list of credit card numbers that had been left lying around by internet service provider Netcom for almost a year.
[46:48.710 --> 46:52.010]  Netcom credit card file, everybody had that file.
[46:52.210 --> 46:54.410]  If you didn't have that file, you were a loser.
[46:54.690 --> 46:56.330]  I mean, hundreds and hundreds of people had that.
[46:56.410 --> 46:58.830]  They swapped it around like, you know, bubblegum or something.
[46:59.030 --> 47:05.890]  And then they claim that he's the one that did it and he's the one that had it, when that was floating around for months before he theoretically had it.
[47:06.050 --> 47:08.910]  Everybody and his sister's got a million credit card numbers.
[47:09.010 --> 47:10.790]  What's the big deal with credit card numbers?
[47:10.870 --> 47:12.530]  It's a meaningless thing to have.
[47:13.550 --> 47:18.710]  I mean, what I want to know is, you know, did he threaten anybody in any way?
[47:18.790 --> 47:21.550]  Did he claim he was going to do some particular set of harm?
[47:21.650 --> 47:29.630]  Are there any notebooks that show that he had plans to, you know, conspire to commit any particular thing?
[47:29.850 --> 47:37.670]  I mean, other than humiliating Tsutomu Shimomura, which any idiot who's ever met Shimomura could have told him, this was not the guy to mess with.
[47:38.290 --> 47:40.130]  And I mean, I met Shimomura once.
[47:40.210 --> 47:42.710]  The first time I met Shimomura, it was in front of Congress.
[47:42.890 --> 47:45.730]  And I was testifying to a congressional subcommittee.
[47:45.730 --> 47:53.890]  And here's this guy in sandals and like ragged ass cutoffs, you know, and the rest of us are like done up and tied.
[47:54.050 --> 47:56.270]  It's me and like the attorney general from New Jersey.
[47:56.490 --> 48:00.450]  And we're sitting there and, you know, we're giving our best sort of, yes, we're in front of Congress thing.
[48:00.670 --> 48:04.790]  And Shimomura's there in this, you know, surfer gear.
[48:04.990 --> 48:20.130]  And he like pulls out this AT&T cell phone, pulls it out of the shrink wrap, finger hacks it, and starts monitoring phone calls going up and down Capitol Hill while an FBI agent is standing at his shoulder, listening to him.
[48:20.270 --> 48:24.410]  I'm like, this has got balls the size of durian fruit.
[48:24.630 --> 48:26.410]  You know, this is unbelievable.
[48:26.450 --> 48:29.090]  This is the heaviest guy I've ever seen doing.
[48:29.350 --> 48:30.970]  I mean, he's hacking, right?
[48:31.050 --> 48:40.210]  I mean, he was, he was finger hacking this phone in front of Congress with two FBI agents and John Gage from Sun Microsystems and the room from him.
[48:40.290 --> 48:43.810]  And I was like, wow, you know, I mean, I was impressed.
[48:44.190 --> 48:49.890]  Inside of a week, Shimomura and Markov had signed a book deal estimated to be worth three quarters of a million dollars.
[48:50.130 --> 48:53.210]  It would be another 19 months before Kevin would even be indicted.
[48:53.450 --> 48:56.990]  The book entitled Takedown was finished by the end of the year.
[48:57.950 --> 48:59.430]  When I read it, I was aghast.
[48:59.970 --> 49:01.390]  I was aghast.
[49:01.510 --> 49:05.450]  It was Satumu's eating and skateboarding habits.
[49:06.550 --> 49:11.230]  I'd been to a lot of the restaurants he'd been to, but I don't think I needed a hacker book to tell me about them.
[49:11.990 --> 49:12.410]  Takedown.
[49:12.610 --> 49:12.970]  Wow.
[49:15.390 --> 49:18.010]  I don't know what I want to say about Takedown.
[49:19.910 --> 49:21.650]  Takedown was not well received.
[49:26.110 --> 49:28.710]  1996 came and went, as did 1997.
[49:29.270 --> 49:34.030]  Kevin remained in prison without even a bail hearing and no prospect of a trial anytime soon.
[49:35.270 --> 49:43.550]  A 25-count indictment accused him of nothing more serious than lying on the telephone about who he was and copying software which he never tried to sell or even distribute.
[49:43.930 --> 49:46.210]  Nothing about hacking into Shimomura's machine.
[49:46.430 --> 49:48.570]  Nothing about having 20,000 credit card numbers.
[49:48.910 --> 49:50.890]  Nothing that would have appeared in a John Markoff story.
[49:52.950 --> 49:56.550]  North Carolina had also charged him with making free cellular phone calls.
[49:56.810 --> 50:00.550]  Kevin was given a two-year sentence, more than he would have gotten for manslaughter.
[50:00.870 --> 50:03.050]  But the federal charges still remained.
[50:04.210 --> 50:13.830]  They even put him in solitary confinement again because the prison authorities convinced themselves that he was going to build a transmitter out of a Walkman, sneak into the warden's office, and monitor his conversations.
[50:14.490 --> 50:19.390]  The mainstream media made light of it, claiming Mitnick was put in solitary for having too many cans of tuna.
[50:20.030 --> 50:24.410]  What everyone seemed to forget was that years were going by, and this guy had yet to be tried.
[50:24.950 --> 50:27.090]  And then things got a whole lot worse.
[50:27.750 --> 50:28.930]  June 1998.
[50:29.450 --> 50:31.750]  A movie version of Takedown was announced.
[50:32.450 --> 50:39.690]  Skeet Ulrich, who played a killer in Scream, was set to play Kevin Mitnick, and Russell Wong from the Joy Luck Club would be Tsutomu Shimomura.
[50:40.090 --> 50:44.750]  It didn't seem to matter to anyone that the real-life Kevin was still rotting in prison without a trial.
[50:45.250 --> 50:49.810]  According to the script we managed to get our hands on, he had been found guilty and sentenced already.
[50:50.250 --> 50:51.530]  The magic of Hollywood.
[50:52.910 --> 50:54.810]  They even brought Kevin and Tsutomu closer.
[50:55.050 --> 50:57.530]  In real life, they had only met for a few seconds in the courtroom.
[50:57.910 --> 51:04.110]  In the Hollywood version, they met in a dark alleyway, where Kevin would proceed to bash Tsutomu over the head with a garbage can lid.
[51:04.770 --> 51:07.150]  We had to tell the world that this was a big mistake.
[51:07.150 --> 51:09.010]  The truth needed to be told.
[51:09.370 --> 51:11.830]  And we could either do it ourselves or use the media.
[51:12.230 --> 51:13.210]  That's right, the media.
[51:13.650 --> 51:19.270]  Democracy's biggest allies, committed to informing the public no matter the cost, the true conscience of America.
[51:19.550 --> 51:22.550]  Get out of the way, Brad!
[51:23.230 --> 51:23.710]  Brad!
[51:24.670 --> 51:25.730]  Watch yourself!
[51:26.590 --> 51:27.070]  Brad!
[51:28.410 --> 51:29.390]  Come on, guys!
[51:30.230 --> 51:30.590]  Brad!
[51:31.010 --> 51:31.990]  Don't yell at me!
[51:32.290 --> 51:33.010]  Everyone's in front of me!
[51:33.010 --> 51:34.070]  Well, tell him to come back!
[51:34.870 --> 51:36.110]  He's coming to the mic!
[51:36.290 --> 51:37.030]  Coming to the mic!
[51:44.050 --> 51:44.930]  The mics!
[51:49.430 --> 51:49.850]  Come on!
[51:50.170 --> 51:51.070]  Let's get out of the way!
[52:05.750 --> 52:07.570]  We decided to do it ourselves.
[52:09.610 --> 52:10.090]  Okay.
[52:10.090 --> 52:10.890]  Oh, boy.
[52:11.050 --> 52:12.870]  That was from Freedom Downtime.
[52:13.030 --> 52:17.910]  And that, of course, the famous media scene, which you just have to see to believe.
[52:19.390 --> 52:22.650]  Porkchop, you've seen it more times than anybody could believe, because you edited the film.
[52:24.330 --> 52:29.310]  I remember getting, when you brought in that section of tape, which you had recorded off of...
[52:29.310 --> 52:29.790]  CNN, yeah.
[52:30.130 --> 52:30.630]  CNN, that's right.
[52:31.290 --> 52:34.210]  CNN just sort of set their camera down and sat back and...
[52:34.210 --> 52:38.850]  That was back in the good days, yeah, when they didn't say things all the time, when they just let stuff happen.
[52:39.030 --> 52:42.470]  And this had to do with a particular news event that was taking place.
[52:43.370 --> 52:48.810]  And the media was just trying to get their microphones and cameras together while somebody was walking to the microphone.
[52:48.810 --> 52:49.770]  It was a big story.
[52:49.930 --> 52:51.510]  And they all were freaking out.
[52:51.550 --> 52:53.810]  And they literally would not shut up.
[52:53.850 --> 52:54.770]  And they would not move.
[52:55.190 --> 52:59.250]  And this represents, to me, what the mass media is all about.
[52:59.550 --> 53:03.350]  And that's why I think it said very well what we were trying to say.
[53:03.490 --> 53:06.410]  That the media was not going to do the job for us.
[53:06.450 --> 53:08.030]  We had to do this ourselves.
[53:08.450 --> 53:10.290]  And that's why we made the film.
[53:10.370 --> 53:12.190]  And that's why we continue to do the radio show.
[53:12.190 --> 53:15.050]  And that's why you out there should support this radio station.
[53:15.350 --> 53:17.930]  212-209-2950.
[53:18.330 --> 53:27.430]  Because it's been the combined efforts of people here, 2600 and various other places, that were able to bring you alternative news stories like this.
[53:27.570 --> 53:29.750]  And they manifest themselves in many different ways.
[53:29.890 --> 53:34.390]  In magazines, on radio programs, and now through films.
[53:34.430 --> 53:36.090]  You can participate in this.
[53:36.290 --> 53:37.310]  Support the radio station.
[53:37.450 --> 53:38.470]  Keep us on the air.
[53:38.590 --> 53:39.170]  Keep us going.
[53:39.970 --> 53:43.730]  And we will send you a copy of Freedom Downtime, which you just heard an excerpt from.
[53:43.930 --> 53:45.260]  212-209-2950.
[53:45.890 --> 53:49.790]  We have another excerpt, which is really pretty good, that we want to play after this.
[53:49.850 --> 53:51.510]  But first, we have to get some phone calls.
[53:51.510 --> 53:55.030]  Because people have been sitting back and relaxing a little bit too much.
[53:55.250 --> 53:57.590]  And we need to build up the numbers.
[53:58.390 --> 53:59.340]  212-209-2950.
[53:59.810 --> 54:06.310]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get Freedom Downtime and the corporate lawsuit t-shirt.
[54:06.490 --> 54:08.870]  That represents how many times 2600 has been sued.
[54:09.170 --> 54:10.710]  By various entities.
[54:11.530 --> 54:12.930]  And that's a pledge of $75.
[54:13.290 --> 54:14.730]  For $125, you get all of that.
[54:14.830 --> 54:17.810]  Freedom Downtime, the 2600 corporate t-shirt.
[54:18.050 --> 54:21.830]  And tickets, a pair of tickets, to the H2K2 convention.
[54:22.110 --> 54:25.130]  In fact, this is something that I neglected to mention before.
[54:25.130 --> 54:30.810]  I said that you're getting a good deal by only adding $50 to the other pledge.
[54:30.850 --> 54:32.930]  You're actually getting a better deal than that because it's two tickets.
[54:33.170 --> 54:34.630]  And two tickets are worth $100.
[54:35.590 --> 54:38.070]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[54:38.750 --> 54:41.490]  So for a pledge of $125, you're actually...
[54:41.490 --> 54:45.210]  You see, this is part of the whole debate over premiums.
[54:45.310 --> 54:49.650]  People, I believe, should be pledging to the radio station because they want to pledge to the radio station.
[54:50.730 --> 54:52.790]  We shouldn't have to entice you with all this stuff.
[54:52.870 --> 54:56.570]  But since we have the stuff to entice you with, we're donating it to the radio station.
[54:56.590 --> 54:58.110]  That's our way of making a pledge.
[54:59.490 --> 55:13.690]  And if you really want to look at cost factor here, what you are paying for this pledge is actually less than what you would pay for these items if you bought them from us, which tells you that's a really good deal.
[55:13.690 --> 55:31.290]  So, 212-209-2950 for a pledge of $125, a pair of tickets to the H2K2 convention worth $50 each, a copy of the film Freedom Downtime, two-hour documentary, which is worth $20, and the 2600 t-shirt, the newest t-shirt that we have with the corporate lawsuits,
[55:31.290 --> 55:32.910]  which is worth, I think, $15.
[55:33.630 --> 55:39.550]  So add all that together, and it comes to more than $125, but we're just asking for $125 for that particular package.
[55:40.030 --> 55:43.730]  We also have the $75 package of Freedom Downtime and the t-shirt.
[55:43.890 --> 55:56.550]  And, of course, any pledge is welcome because if you just want to support the radio station, let's say you already have these things, or let's say you have absolutely no interest in going to H2K2 or you don't have a VCR or things like that, and you just want to support the station,
[55:56.690 --> 55:59.090]  then please call us, 212-209-2950.
[55:59.090 --> 56:00.690]  We have five calls on the line.
[56:01.310 --> 56:09.910]  We want to make that ten calls because we need to raise those numbers a bit before we can go back to the next clip of the film.
[56:11.210 --> 56:16.750]  Now, we should point out that during the last clip of the film, you heard there was a little section that was bleeped out.
[56:17.090 --> 56:17.850]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[56:17.970 --> 56:21.690]  That's... AutoJack, you helped put this together for the presentation tonight.
[56:21.970 --> 56:22.930]  Yes, yes, I did.
[56:23.230 --> 56:25.590]  Now, there was something about that tone that sounded familiar.
[56:26.350 --> 56:28.030]  Yeah, it was a 2600 Hz tone.
[56:28.170 --> 56:28.590]  That's it.
[56:28.590 --> 56:33.950]  It was a 2600 Hz tone, and we're called 2600, so now I understand how it all fits together.
[56:34.190 --> 56:35.090]  It's very clever, yeah.
[56:35.090 --> 56:39.170]  Yeah, so every time there's an obscenity, and, yeah, there are some salty words in our documentary...
[56:39.170 --> 56:39.670]  There are two in the next one.
[56:40.250 --> 56:50.490]  Okay, well, let's not give away too much, but, yeah, you will hear the 2600 Hz tone in lieu of the obscenity because this is FCC territory, and we don't want to tread too heavily on it.
[56:51.110 --> 56:54.390]  So, yeah, that won't be in the film.
[56:54.530 --> 56:59.970]  The film has a completely unedited version there, so don't worry about that.
[57:00.130 --> 57:01.970]  We're only doing this for the radio audience.
[57:02.130 --> 57:04.690]  You know, there are people driving around with their infant kids who might be offended.
[57:05.090 --> 57:11.450]  Also, if you live in a third-world country, I don't suggest holding your radio up to the telephone while you're listening to it.
[57:11.450 --> 57:16.030]  That's true, because you might still be using in-band signaling, and it could disconnect your phone call, assuming you're on the phone.
[57:16.490 --> 57:16.850]  Right.
[57:17.450 --> 57:20.370]  212-209-2950, and some technical things, too.
[57:20.510 --> 57:37.550]  It is a VHS tape, and it's NTSC, which means that it's for use in the United States and Western Hemisphere, but I understand everybody overseas can also read NTSC, unlike the PAL standard, which we cannot read here in this country.
[57:38.070 --> 57:43.770]  Yeah, and I'm mistaking, but can't you write off your pledges here to the station?
[57:43.770 --> 57:44.390]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[57:44.510 --> 57:48.170]  It's a pledge to a non-profit organization, so it's completely tax-deductible.
[57:48.310 --> 57:55.650]  So someone could get tickets to the festival and the conference and a videotape and write it off at the same time.
[57:56.010 --> 58:02.570]  Technically, that's true, although the things that we are giving you are our way of saying thank you for you pledging to us.
[58:02.750 --> 58:04.130]  You're not actually buying the tickets.
[58:04.130 --> 58:10.130]  You're making a donation, and we're saying, well, for this donation, we will send you this amount of thank yous.
[58:10.310 --> 58:14.050]  And that's how we choose to express ourselves in that particular way.
[58:14.550 --> 58:18.430]  So, yeah, you can definitely make this work to your advantage.
[58:18.590 --> 58:20.830]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[58:20.890 --> 58:24.950]  It is very important, though, that you not only make the pledge, but you pay the pledge.
[58:24.950 --> 58:28.010]  That way, you will be on the list.
[58:28.010 --> 58:40.890]  We will send you the tickets that you need in time for the conference, because the conference is July 12th through 14th here in New York City, and we certainly don't want anybody to miss that if they made a pledge.
[58:41.070 --> 58:42.550]  So, 212-209-2950.
[58:42.710 --> 58:49.570]  And one way to ensure that you don't have any time problems is if you use a credit card, because that way it happens immediately.
[58:50.450 --> 58:51.950]  212-209-2950.
[58:52.170 --> 58:55.750]  We should also point out that the BAI still has its own...
[00:12.650 --> 00:14.770]  B.A.I.'s newsletter, things like that.
[00:14.990 --> 00:16.050]  Those are still in effect.
[00:16.270 --> 00:18.810]  We're not taking over those, we're just adding to them.
[00:18.850 --> 00:22.210]  I don't know if we have a newsletter, but I think they do have a certain thing.
[00:22.290 --> 00:25.030]  We should have a newsletter, but I think we're working on getting that back.
[00:25.510 --> 00:26.930]  Mike, you have information on this.
[00:27.890 --> 00:28.250]  No.
[00:28.550 --> 00:29.250]  You don't have information.
[00:29.370 --> 00:30.190]  Well, you're looking for information.
[00:30.210 --> 00:36.530]  Look, if you give $75 and you don't want the items that you're offering, you can get a B.A.I.
[00:36.690 --> 00:39.210]  baseball cap, t-shirt, coffee mag, or tote bag.
[00:39.210 --> 00:39.750]  There you go.
[00:39.930 --> 00:40.250]  There you go.
[00:40.310 --> 00:43.510]  And then people will stop you on the subway and ask you why you have that.
[00:43.790 --> 00:44.010]  Right.
[00:44.630 --> 00:48.310]  And you can have all kinds of conversations with people that you've never met.
[00:48.450 --> 00:51.870]  But if you can't afford that, you can still pledge any amount.
[00:52.550 --> 00:54.010]  212-209-2950.
[00:54.750 --> 01:02.790]  And for those FBI agents that might be listening and thinking of pledging and are doing it because they think somehow the money goes to hackers, that's not true.
[01:03.030 --> 01:05.030]  This money all goes to WBAI.
[01:05.030 --> 01:08.850]  Not a person in this studio, not a person in the hacking community makes anything out of this.
[01:09.010 --> 01:10.710]  No one is paid for this show.
[01:11.370 --> 01:14.670]  It all goes to BAI to support independent radio.
[01:14.790 --> 01:15.050]  That's right.
[01:15.090 --> 01:19.070]  And you can continue to listen to this program as a result of that and collect more evidence on us.
[01:19.410 --> 01:20.870]  So everybody wins.
[01:21.010 --> 01:21.510]  Everybody wins.
[01:21.610 --> 01:23.250]  212-209-2950.
[01:24.170 --> 01:25.250]  Please give a call.
[01:25.250 --> 01:32.330]  Well, one thing that I always learn whenever I go out to the heartland is that it's not just a New York thing.
[01:33.290 --> 01:34.570]  I can go to Denmark.
[01:34.570 --> 01:36.090]  I can go to California.
[01:36.090 --> 01:37.990]  I can go virtually any place in the world.
[01:37.990 --> 01:43.230]  And people appreciate what this radio program stands for, what this radio station stands for.
[01:43.230 --> 01:49.350]  So that's why, thanks to the Internet, we no longer are confined just to the tri-state area.
[01:49.890 --> 01:56.930]  Anybody can call in and support the radio station from around the world and help keep us where we are right now.
[01:57.110 --> 02:00.870]  50,000 watts in the middle of the commercial FM dial.
[02:01.050 --> 02:02.830]  That, my friends, is a big deal.
[02:02.830 --> 02:09.530]  Because this radio station could be sold to a commercial entity for hundreds of millions of dollars.
[02:09.630 --> 02:13.270]  I believe it was the latest figure that was thrown about during the last crisis.
[02:14.670 --> 02:19.150]  And imagine it could become just another pop music station and it would make a ton of money.
[02:19.150 --> 02:23.790]  We choose not to do that here because we have more important things to talk about.
[02:23.790 --> 02:25.150]  We have a lot of people who care.
[02:25.630 --> 02:28.530]  But we need to know there are people out there who care as well.
[02:28.670 --> 02:30.590]  212-209-2950.
[02:30.590 --> 02:34.430]  So the phone lines are pretty much empty except for that one solitary person that's on there.
[02:34.570 --> 02:41.470]  So let's light it up one more time, get another five calls on there, and then we can go back to the film and play another excerpt.
[02:41.510 --> 02:46.370]  And in this next excerpt, we're going to be hearing how it all got started.
[02:46.370 --> 02:51.910]  How the demonstration against Miramax, which really was a big deal.
[02:51.910 --> 02:57.030]  If you recall, they were making the movie called Takedown, which has still not been released in this country.
[02:58.410 --> 03:04.430]  And a bunch of us, from this radio station, on this radio show, were talking about it.
[03:04.610 --> 03:06.790]  In fact, we were planning the whole thing.
[03:06.910 --> 03:09.570]  We were planning demonstrations outside the studios of...
[03:09.570 --> 03:11.350]  Not the studios, the offices of Miramax downtown.
[03:12.310 --> 03:30.490]  And we wanted to get the message to them that making a movie about Kevin Mitnick and having him actually being found guilty of the crimes he had still not been tried for and being portrayed as a violent, racist criminal, that that kind of thing didn't sit well and that we were going to speak out against it.
[03:30.690 --> 03:34.090]  But we had to have a forum for planning this somehow.
[03:34.190 --> 03:35.030]  We had to have meetings.
[03:35.030 --> 03:37.650]  We had to figure out just what exactly we were doing.
[03:37.830 --> 03:41.530]  And this whole process is outlined in this movie, Freedom Downtime.
[03:42.430 --> 03:44.350]  You'll hear clips of the demonstration.
[03:44.350 --> 03:47.370]  You'll also hear us talking to people outside movie theaters in New York.
[03:47.730 --> 03:56.710]  It's really amazing to see the history, to see how it all came together, how the importance of the radio station really came through in that situation.
[03:56.890 --> 03:58.430]  212-209-2950.
[03:58.610 --> 03:59.550]  Two calls on the line.
[03:59.610 --> 04:00.570]  We need another three calls.
[04:00.730 --> 04:03.530]  Then we can go back to the film.
[04:03.530 --> 04:05.710]  212-209-2950.
[04:07.790 --> 04:14.110]  Basically, we are here today one of several times a year where we have to ask for support to keep the place going.
[04:14.790 --> 04:20.150]  And I think if you get something out of the radio station, out of the radio show, it's not so much to ask.
[04:20.170 --> 04:26.090]  If you listen to commercial radio, and I know a lot of you do, you will hear many times an hour, commercials.
[04:26.730 --> 04:28.610]  Yes, commercials for products.
[04:29.370 --> 04:30.970]  And you think you're not paying for that?
[04:30.970 --> 04:35.470]  You think that's not reflected in the cost of whatever it is you buy, whether you want it to be or not?
[04:35.750 --> 04:41.050]  The thing is, you wind up paying for commercial radio a lot more than you wind up paying for non-commercial radio.
[04:41.450 --> 04:44.130]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[04:44.670 --> 04:46.050]  Please show your support.
[04:47.130 --> 04:48.290]  Invest in us.
[04:48.450 --> 04:50.410]  Because we will pay off.
[04:50.530 --> 04:51.950]  And I think we already have.
[04:52.090 --> 04:55.050]  I mean, the whole Kevin Mitnick saga, the whole Bernie S saga.
[04:55.050 --> 04:56.430]  By the way, we did make contact with Bernie.
[04:56.470 --> 04:57.490]  He'll be on later on tonight.
[04:58.950 --> 05:02.250]  And Phiber Optik and so many other people that we've talked to over the years.
[05:02.730 --> 05:03.950]  These are important stories.
[05:04.090 --> 05:05.570]  These are stories that need to be heard.
[05:06.070 --> 05:14.030]  We need to get out there and, as Jell Biafra said, become the media ourselves and actually take control.
[05:15.070 --> 05:16.890]  You can't rely on mainstream media to do it.
[05:16.970 --> 05:19.810]  You're just going to have a bunch of yammering idiots like we just heard a few minutes ago.
[05:19.970 --> 05:24.230]  You know, that's what you're going to have if you just allow them to do the job.
[05:24.230 --> 05:27.250]  If you have a message to get across, the Internet is your tool.
[05:28.710 --> 05:30.030]  Self-publishing is your tool.
[05:31.010 --> 05:32.050]  WBAI is your tool.
[05:33.850 --> 05:35.890]  212-209-2950.
[05:36.350 --> 05:37.530]  We've got six calls on the line.
[05:37.690 --> 05:38.330]  That's not bad.
[05:38.330 --> 05:42.190]  So I'm going to ask that people continue calling while we play the next clip.
[05:42.790 --> 05:44.030]  AutoJack, are you going to be with us?
[05:45.110 --> 05:46.490]  Actually, I think I have to go.
[05:46.690 --> 05:47.170]  Okay, yeah.
[05:47.190 --> 05:48.650]  You told me you might have to go after the first hour.
[05:48.810 --> 05:51.050]  So we want to thank you for all your efforts.
[05:51.390 --> 05:53.530]  Of course, you will be performing at H2K2.
[05:54.150 --> 05:56.750]  Some of your music, which...
[05:56.750 --> 05:57.270]  Yes, I will.
[05:57.370 --> 05:57.790]  A lot of us...
[05:57.790 --> 05:59.690]  Along with two other guys.
[05:59.910 --> 06:01.410]  A lot of us are looking forward to that.
[06:01.710 --> 06:03.130]  In fact, maybe we'll play some of your music later.
[06:03.190 --> 06:04.130]  We do have the CD with us.
[06:05.510 --> 06:09.510]  And again, thanks for all the work in getting these clips ready for the radio show tonight.
[06:09.910 --> 06:10.190]  Yeah, yeah.
[06:10.230 --> 06:10.570]  No problem.
[06:10.750 --> 06:13.490]  And we'll see you in a couple of weeks right here in the studios.
[06:13.890 --> 06:14.090]  Yep.
[06:14.390 --> 06:14.630]  All right.
[06:14.850 --> 06:15.190]  Take care.
[06:15.750 --> 06:15.870]  Bye.
[06:24.290 --> 06:26.910]  This is the movie that we spent many years making.
[06:27.030 --> 06:28.270]  Portia, when did we start doing this?
[06:28.510 --> 06:30.110]  I think we started in 1998.
[06:30.610 --> 06:31.130]  Yeah, 1998.
[06:31.650 --> 06:32.370]  That sounds about right.
[06:32.430 --> 06:33.770]  Making a movie is not easy.
[06:34.310 --> 06:34.470]  You know?
[06:34.690 --> 06:36.150]  For those of you who think that it is...
[06:36.150 --> 06:37.630]  Well, actually, the process has gotten a lot easier.
[06:37.730 --> 06:42.230]  We couldn't have done this a decade earlier because the cameras did not exist.
[06:42.230 --> 06:44.930]  We used a digital camera, mini-DV tapes.
[06:45.170 --> 06:46.730]  Sony DCR-VX1000.
[06:47.010 --> 06:51.250]  And when we were filming, we did not yet have a way of editing.
[06:51.410 --> 06:52.890]  We did not know how we were going to edit this.
[06:52.890 --> 06:54.510]  Because the software did not yet exist.
[06:55.410 --> 07:00.510]  And unfortunately, as we were editing, we realized that the software still didn't exist to do exactly what we wanted it to do.
[07:00.650 --> 07:01.850]  Now the software does exist.
[07:01.870 --> 07:07.190]  But the software we use probably could have used a lot of improvement.
[07:07.890 --> 07:14.770]  But credit to you because you struggled through it and you saw it through to the end and came up with quite a product.
[07:15.270 --> 07:21.650]  I've gotten so many compliments on the whole editing and sound work that you really deserve the credit for.
[07:22.030 --> 07:22.550]  Well, thank you.
[07:22.550 --> 07:24.470]  212-209-2950.
[07:24.710 --> 07:32.930]  Now, show us your support and get a copy of Freedom Downtime for various amounts, which you can ask our tally people about.
[07:33.490 --> 07:35.690]  We're going to go back into Freedom Downtime now.
[07:36.450 --> 07:42.730]  After that, we'll have a special guest and other features going on in this particular expanded edition of Off the Hook.
[07:42.830 --> 07:46.750]  We're on until 10 o'clock tonight, possibly until midnight, depending on what enough said people want to do.
[07:46.750 --> 08:00.990]  Again, this is how it all got started, how the meetings for the demonstration got planned and what we were doing outside movie theaters trying to stop the major motion picture about Kevin Mitnick from defaming him even further.
[08:02.390 --> 08:04.110]  212-209-2950.
[08:04.450 --> 08:05.510]  Now, Freedom Downtime.
[08:06.330 --> 08:10.610]  Okay, for Off the Hook, I recently heard the show where you guys received a copy of the script for Takedown.
[08:10.810 --> 08:18.350]  I found it to be really amusing how the script writers can take the truth and not twist it or fabricate it, but just plain lie about what happened.
[08:18.570 --> 08:26.390]  I have heard about Kevin's story and thanks to Off the Hook, I heard about this meeting and I decided to come and see what I can do to help.
[08:26.630 --> 08:27.250]  It wasn't from me.
[08:27.410 --> 08:29.590]  It was from somebody else, but I knew exactly this.
[08:29.650 --> 08:30.570]  Is there a good catchiness?
[08:30.850 --> 08:31.630]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[08:32.050 --> 08:33.910]  From Supermax to Miramax.
[08:34.110 --> 08:35.810]  Three and a half years with no trial.
[08:37.230 --> 08:43.230]  And then you can make another one from Miramax to Supermax and no trial.
[08:43.230 --> 08:51.450]  When they see two free Kevin stickers, when they see 10, 20, 100, they're going to say, who the hell is Kevin?
[08:51.610 --> 08:53.650]  And they're going to keep saying it until somebody answers them.
[08:54.210 --> 08:57.630]  One or two people that know more about it are one or two people more on our side.
[08:58.190 --> 09:00.350]  Those two people get two people, we get two people, and now it works.
[09:00.690 --> 09:03.470]  Basically, we're going to be in their face every step of the way.
[09:03.690 --> 09:08.310]  And if it comes to showing this thing in the screen, you know, in theaters, we're going to be there too.
[09:08.930 --> 09:12.750]  I mean, what we're doing now isn't going to be finished
[09:33.710 --> 09:39.630]  We had tried talking to them and they wouldn't listen.
[09:40.030 --> 09:43.530]  Now by having a demonstration outside their offices, they would have to listen.
[09:43.990 --> 09:45.430]  But we were a bunch of hackers.
[09:45.730 --> 09:47.070]  What did we know about demonstrations?
[09:47.310 --> 09:53.610]  Just that they can turn into riots, especially when the mayor was banning demonstrations outside City Hall and the cops were shooting people a whole lot more.
[09:54.410 --> 09:55.550]  We needed guidance.
[09:56.030 --> 09:57.190]  Someone with experience.
[09:57.870 --> 09:59.790]  We looked all over town for an activist.
[10:00.110 --> 10:02.410]  Maybe one of those gray-haired hippies from the 60s.
[10:03.090 --> 10:04.050]  We found one.
[10:04.750 --> 10:05.370]  Sort of.
[10:16.190 --> 10:18.170]  What's it like demonstrating here?
[10:18.430 --> 10:19.330]  Do you get harassed?
[10:19.330 --> 10:21.910]  They hate our guts because they don't want the truth to come out.
[10:22.210 --> 10:24.390]  Why do you think there isn't more activism?
[10:25.270 --> 10:26.530]  Because people don't care.
[10:26.650 --> 10:27.450]  They're scared.
[10:28.330 --> 10:29.210]  They're afraid.
[10:29.530 --> 10:30.910]  They're afraid they'll get into trouble.
[10:31.090 --> 10:32.330]  I can understand, you know.
[10:32.490 --> 10:35.670]  But we still have to take a stand, afraid or not.
[10:35.770 --> 10:37.370]  We have to at least give it a try.
[10:37.530 --> 10:38.830]  We have to give it a shot, you know.
[10:38.950 --> 10:40.250]  Has this cop been giving you any trouble?
[10:40.470 --> 10:41.010]  No, no.
[10:41.090 --> 10:41.890]  He's been standing there.
[10:42.010 --> 10:42.470]  He hasn't bothered me.
[10:42.950 --> 10:46.470]  And we have a president that wants to suck their brains out.
[10:47.170 --> 10:48.490]  That bothers a lot of people.
[10:48.490 --> 10:49.350]  Yeah, yeah.
[10:50.110 --> 10:54.350]  Anybody that's decent gets bothered when a little child is tortured to death, you know.
[10:54.490 --> 10:56.910]  Or when a president's sucking their brains out.
[10:57.010 --> 10:57.490]  Yeah, yeah.
[10:58.210 --> 11:00.130]  He wasn't exactly what we had in mind.
[11:00.450 --> 11:03.550]  I got a real earful about the evils of homosexuals and communists.
[11:03.790 --> 11:06.850]  But in the end, he told us the one thing we needed to hear.
[11:07.370 --> 11:09.890]  When you demonstrate, make sure you're in the right.
[11:10.990 --> 11:12.750]  And that's the one thing we were sure of.
[11:12.970 --> 11:13.890]  We were right.
[11:17.880 --> 11:18.780]  The day arrived.
[11:19.020 --> 11:20.520]  We had no idea what to expect.
[11:27.180 --> 11:29.740]  We just kind of stood there for a while, not knowing what to do.
[11:29.940 --> 11:32.500]  Our converted phone company van got more attention than we did.
[11:32.760 --> 11:34.040]  My name is Noah Kinnickstein.
[11:34.080 --> 11:34.700]  I'm an attorney.
[11:34.980 --> 11:35.800]  For Miramax?
[11:36.120 --> 11:36.640]  No, no.
[11:37.140 --> 11:37.720]  For you all.
[11:37.720 --> 11:38.460]  I didn't even know.
[11:38.560 --> 11:39.660]  I didn't even know it was...
[11:39.660 --> 11:40.680]  Yeah, no, I'm a lawyer.
[11:40.820 --> 11:41.420]  I'm not from...
[11:41.420 --> 11:42.660]  I'm representing you all.
[11:42.820 --> 11:43.380]  Okay, great.
[11:43.680 --> 11:46.480]  So no one's getting arrested, right?
[11:47.260 --> 11:48.080]  No, I didn't plan on it.
[11:48.240 --> 11:48.600]  Good.
[11:49.000 --> 11:49.120]  Good.
[11:49.580 --> 11:53.960]  The National Lawyers Guild actually sent someone to protect us, and that was the turning point.
[11:54.300 --> 11:55.380]  Things began to come together.
[11:55.560 --> 11:57.400]  Even members of the media started to show up.
[11:57.620 --> 12:00.840]  It seemed like everyone except Miramax was taking this seriously.
[12:01.900 --> 12:07.020]  We learned that when you stand outside a film studio's offices with picket signs, people notice.
[12:07.020 --> 12:07.660]  Ken,
[12:17.010 --> 12:20.330]  these folks are going to put on a little demonstration here.
[12:20.430 --> 12:21.610]  They're going to be marching around.
[12:21.870 --> 12:22.970]  I thought I would tell you.
[12:23.230 --> 12:26.750]  You could tell the precinct, sir.
[12:26.750 --> 12:28.030]  And tell them, I'm a lawyer.
[12:28.170 --> 12:29.430]  It's nice and calm.
[12:29.910 --> 12:30.910]  No problem.
[12:31.230 --> 12:31.550]  Is it all?
[12:31.770 --> 12:35.110]  But they're going to have a little dej and they're going to be marching around, so if you want to have...
[12:35.110 --> 12:36.010]  I'll have that.
[12:36.050 --> 12:37.130]  I want to just tell you that.
[12:37.230 --> 12:38.490]  I appreciate that very much.
[12:38.690 --> 12:40.250]  Can you tell me approximately, sir, how many?
[12:40.690 --> 12:44.390]  I would say there's going to be maybe 50 people, Patty?
[12:45.470 --> 12:46.350]  50 to 60.
[12:47.290 --> 12:48.030]  Maximum 50.
[12:49.410 --> 12:50.030]  Maximum 50.
[12:50.070 --> 12:50.830]  50 to 60 people?
[12:51.250 --> 12:52.830]  What area are you doing it in?
[12:52.950 --> 12:55.610]  We're going to do it here in front of Miramax Films.
[12:55.730 --> 12:58.150]  They're demonstrating about a movie that they're making.
[12:58.450 --> 12:58.570]  I see.
[12:58.830 --> 12:59.350]  Okay, fine.
[12:59.510 --> 13:00.530]  I appreciate you stopping me.
[13:00.530 --> 13:00.670]  All right.
[13:00.870 --> 13:02.670]  And tell everybody it's nice and calm.
[13:02.930 --> 13:03.770]  I'll tell them that's all.
[13:03.930 --> 13:05.050]  Thank you very much for your advice.
[13:07.050 --> 13:09.190]  No, they're not going to come on purpose.
[13:09.530 --> 13:14.150]  People are, you know, you're talking about suits.
[13:14.150 --> 13:15.290]  They don't give a .
[13:15.290 --> 13:16.790]  You got to go hand it to them.
[13:17.390 --> 13:19.030]  Don't harass the people that walk by.
[13:19.810 --> 13:22.530]  Some people, some people have crises going on in their lives.
[13:22.670 --> 13:25.430]  They can't be bothered with our problems.
[13:25.730 --> 13:26.770]  Do y'all have a permit?
[13:27.710 --> 13:28.730]  Do y'all have a permit?
[13:28.810 --> 13:29.710]  Who's in charge out here?
[13:30.370 --> 13:31.530]  Do y'all have a permit?
[13:32.370 --> 13:36.590]  All right, long as you don't block in front of the entrance, you stay to the side, please.
[13:37.230 --> 13:37.750]  Thank you.
[13:39.750 --> 13:41.130]  They can walk in front.
[13:41.910 --> 13:43.410]  They can walk in front.
[13:43.890 --> 13:47.850]  As long as you don't block the entrance for the people to come in, I don't have no problem.
[13:48.250 --> 13:49.530]  Don't block the entrance.
[13:50.590 --> 13:51.710]  Don't block the entrance.
[13:52.070 --> 13:52.950]  That's all I'm saying.
[13:53.110 --> 13:53.450]  It's ringing.
[13:53.750 --> 13:54.890]  I got put in voicemail.
[13:54.970 --> 13:55.930]  I guess I got too many calls.
[13:56.230 --> 13:57.090]  I just want straight to voicemail.
[13:57.590 --> 13:58.490]  I'll leave a message there.
[13:59.590 --> 14:00.830]  Hi, this is a protest outside.
[14:01.070 --> 14:01.810]  Are you guys there?
[14:02.930 --> 14:04.230]  If you get this, come outside.
[14:04.390 --> 14:05.510]  We're right down here.
[14:05.590 --> 14:06.170]  I see someone.
[14:07.510 --> 14:10.950]  All right, well, maybe you'll pick up the phone or come downstairs later.
[14:11.250 --> 14:12.930]  So were you calling, like, the publicity department or something?
[14:12.930 --> 14:13.890]  No, I just called the main number.
[14:13.970 --> 14:15.270]  I got a hold of them yesterday.
[14:15.490 --> 14:15.830]  Oh, really?
[14:15.990 --> 14:17.990]  And I asked for directions to the protest.
[14:18.970 --> 14:22.070]  And they told me they couldn't get me from where I was at to here.
[14:23.010 --> 14:25.430]  And I said, okay, well, I'll call you back tomorrow when I'm out front.
[14:25.430 --> 14:27.250]  And I see them.
[14:27.410 --> 14:28.270]  They broke their heads up.
[14:28.390 --> 14:28.850]  There's one.
[14:29.090 --> 14:29.230]  Yeah.
[14:29.710 --> 14:30.990]  But they're not answering the phones now.
[14:31.110 --> 14:40.930]  Waving banners that said, free Kevin, and holding Stop Miramax posters, the small but vocal crowd of protesters stood outside Miramax Pictures' New York offices yesterday.
[14:41.270 --> 14:48.110]  At issue, this script entitled, Takedown, the story of the nation's most notorious computer hacker, Kevin Mitnick.
[14:48.410 --> 14:53.110]  Mitnick is currently being held in prison without bail, awaiting trial on computer crimes.
[14:53.110 --> 14:59.390]  It's a script these Kevin Mitnick supporters say is libelous and would hurt Mitnick's chances of getting a fair trial.
[14:59.610 --> 15:01.330]  It might influence the jury.
[15:01.590 --> 15:05.090]  It might change a lot of things in a negative way.
[15:05.290 --> 15:08.230]  I mean, he's trying so hard to at least get a trial.
[15:08.250 --> 15:11.290]  And then this comes up, where he's constantly being defamed.
[15:12.850 --> 15:16.250]  You never know who you might see when you're standing outside the office of a film studio.
[15:18.030 --> 15:19.850]  Kevin Bacon had no interest whatsoever.
[15:22.470 --> 15:24.650]  The radio personality, Laszlo, did.
[15:25.170 --> 15:42.050]  With the proliferation of news, TV news journalism like Primetime Live and these shows that completely distort the facts, and shows like 60 Minutes being forced to, you know, go in the same, same direction.
[15:43.530 --> 15:45.430]  People don't know the facts about the case.
[15:45.590 --> 15:48.410]  They don't know the facts about hackers.
[15:49.830 --> 15:55.130]  I say that hackers are the communists of the 1990s.
[15:55.210 --> 15:56.890]  I mean, we're basically...
[15:57.770 --> 16:02.590]  If anybody says hacker, all of a sudden you've got this demon 666 across your head.
[16:02.590 --> 16:04.970]  Nobody actually understands any of it.
[16:06.770 --> 16:14.790]  So, what I do on my part on the radio, with my syndicated show, is try to get people to open their brains.
[16:14.890 --> 16:18.710]  Because I talk to a lot of old people out there, because I'm on a lot of news talk stations.
[16:19.290 --> 16:22.690]  So when I can, I put Manuel or Bernie S.
[16:22.890 --> 16:27.890]  or anybody else on there to talk about the state of what's going on, because nobody else is going to cover it.
[16:27.990 --> 16:33.230]  And the people that do cover it in the mainstream media are going to cover it for profit, like the guy that wrote the book.
[16:33.330 --> 16:41.170]  The demonstrators here say they have sent a copy of this illicitly obtained script of the movie to Kevin Mitnick in jail, and that he absolutely hates it.
[16:41.510 --> 16:44.110]  Miramax's parent, Disney, may not like it either.
[16:44.310 --> 16:50.450]  The controversy comes on the heels of the dumping of $43 million in Disney stock by the Texas Board of Education.
[16:50.710 --> 16:54.530]  The board's complaint that Miramax films have too much sex and violence.
[16:55.010 --> 16:56.330]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[16:57.030 --> 16:58.390]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[16:59.010 --> 17:00.430]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[17:01.130 --> 17:02.410]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[17:02.590 --> 17:05.350]  Was that Harvey Weinstein, president of Miramax?
[17:05.690 --> 17:08.890]  He walked right by us and didn't even get a Stop Miramax brochure?
[17:10.170 --> 17:12.250]  Of course we had a brochure for Harvey.
[17:13.070 --> 17:14.390]  Okay, I'll talk to you later.
[17:14.550 --> 17:14.830]  Bye!
[17:16.710 --> 17:17.470]  What'd they say?
[17:17.670 --> 17:18.510]  They might, I don't know.
[17:18.590 --> 17:19.230]  They might come down.
[17:19.890 --> 17:21.250]  There she is, that's the one who answered the phone.
[17:22.090 --> 17:23.130]  She hung up on me yesterday.
[17:23.810 --> 17:24.210]  They want me to follow...
[17:24.210 --> 17:24.550]  I got ur.
[17:24.830 --> 17:25.230]  Excellent.
[17:25.450 --> 17:26.170]  Да, they waved.
[17:26.250 --> 17:26.790]  Did you see them waved?
[17:28.370 --> 17:29.650]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[17:29.830 --> 17:36.150]  They said that, you have to use a bullhorn to just show people's walkways and have to have a permit or they're going to move.
[17:36.570 --> 17:38.050]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[17:38.790 --> 17:40.090]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[17:41.330 --> 17:42.730]  Miramax, it's towards the back!
[17:42.730 --> 17:43.650]  Any thoughts?
[17:44.010 --> 17:48.590]  Well, I think that three years is a long time to be held without actually having a trial.
[17:49.090 --> 17:55.570]  And I think that what Miramax is doing is going to jeopardize his right to have a free and honest trial.
[17:56.230 --> 17:57.750]  So that's why I'm on here protesting.
[17:58.910 --> 17:59.410]  Thank you.
[18:02.230 --> 18:05.870]  They all were aware of the thing in front of their building in New York City.
[18:06.250 --> 18:07.690]  I mean, they were talking about it on the set.
[18:07.790 --> 18:08.430]  They asked me about it.
[18:08.510 --> 18:09.410]  They said, did you talk to Emmanuel?
[18:09.430 --> 18:09.870]  That's great.
[18:10.150 --> 18:11.170]  So they were waving at the window.
[18:11.330 --> 18:12.030]  They think it's fantastic.
[18:12.030 --> 18:13.570]  And they all want free Kevin stickers.
[18:14.050 --> 18:15.110]  The whole crew wants free stickers.
[18:15.330 --> 18:16.750]  If you give me some, I'll send them to them.
[18:16.890 --> 18:18.070]  They will put them on their cards.
[18:18.430 --> 18:19.030]  Hello, sir.
[18:19.330 --> 18:20.850]  You know who Kevin Mitnick is?
[18:21.090 --> 18:21.750]  No, I do not.
[18:22.190 --> 18:26.070]  Computer hacker who's been in jail for three and a half years without a trial.
[18:27.150 --> 18:29.010]  Miramax decided to make a movie about him.
[18:29.170 --> 18:29.510]  Oh, really?
[18:29.650 --> 18:31.350]  The script is false.
[18:31.610 --> 18:33.910]  Makes him out to be a violent racist.
[18:34.270 --> 18:34.530]  Right.
[18:34.770 --> 18:35.590]  Which he is not.
[18:36.130 --> 18:37.450]  Want to know what you think about it?
[18:38.270 --> 18:39.450]  When are they doing the film?
[18:39.650 --> 18:41.430]  Well, they start shooting in a couple weeks.
[18:41.430 --> 18:42.610]  Kevin Mitnick is great.
[18:42.730 --> 18:44.510]  So how can I find out about what's the truth?
[18:44.530 --> 18:45.270]  They should take him out of prison.
[18:46.250 --> 18:46.810]  Hold on.
[18:46.890 --> 18:47.590]  I don't want to talk to you.
[18:47.950 --> 18:48.510]  What's that?
[18:48.750 --> 18:56.870]  My main thing is, the only reason he even ended up running the file of the law is because people don't really have access to communications.
[18:57.090 --> 19:01.310]  All you got is big corporations like Miramax with access to communications.
[19:01.730 --> 19:02.490]  First Amendment!
[19:03.010 --> 19:03.170]  Yeah!
[19:04.770 --> 19:05.970]  This is in America.
[19:06.110 --> 19:06.510]  This is happening here.
[19:06.510 --> 19:07.810]  He was in jail for three years without a trial?
[19:08.090 --> 19:08.730]  He's still in jail.
[19:08.950 --> 19:09.610]  Well, I saw this.
[19:09.630 --> 19:11.770]  I saw something about this on CNBC on Friday.
[19:11.770 --> 19:13.190]  This happens a lot though.
[19:13.490 --> 19:17.050]  Because you always had those unauthorized biographies.
[19:17.230 --> 19:17.730]  Stuff like that.
[19:17.890 --> 19:22.070]  Where it's like, you have an autobiography, you have an authorized biographies.
[19:22.170 --> 19:22.930]  This is different though.
[19:22.990 --> 19:24.770]  This is sort of like an unauthorized biographies.
[19:24.770 --> 19:25.670]  This is going to be big.
[19:25.930 --> 19:27.110]  This is going to be big.
[19:27.290 --> 19:28.350]  He hasn't had a trial yet.
[19:28.570 --> 19:29.370]  Hasn't had a trial yet.
[19:29.410 --> 19:30.050]  So that's sort of not really...
[19:30.050 --> 19:30.910]  Wait, not only that.
[19:30.950 --> 19:34.210]  In the movie, they already wrote that he had a trial.
[19:35.190 --> 19:36.590]  You ever hear of Kevin Mitnick?
[19:37.050 --> 19:37.390]  No.
[19:37.510 --> 19:37.810]  Who's that?
[19:38.310 --> 19:40.670]  Well, if you're walking away, I really can't help.
[19:43.590 --> 19:45.190]  How did you guys get a hold of the script?
[19:45.950 --> 19:46.510]  Uh, thanks.
[19:47.210 --> 19:47.810]  Come on.
[19:48.010 --> 19:48.010]  Okay.
[19:48.050 --> 19:48.190]  All right.
[19:49.510 --> 19:49.870]  Yeah.
[19:51.490 --> 19:51.850]  Okay.
[19:52.010 --> 19:52.630]  Hey, you're a lawyer.
[19:52.790 --> 19:55.290]  Isn't it illegal to like, you know, if they're going to slander him?
[19:55.770 --> 19:57.310]  Can't they try to stop him on legal grounds?
[19:58.310 --> 19:58.410]  Yeah.
[19:58.410 --> 19:59.190]  Well, that's not right.
[19:59.310 --> 20:01.210]  They have to put a waiver or something.
[20:01.230 --> 20:04.430]  I think that they should have to hold the film until after he's had a fair trial.
[20:04.930 --> 20:05.290]  Well...
[20:05.290 --> 20:06.210]  I mean, it happens.
[20:06.310 --> 20:07.450]  It happens, unfortunately.
[20:07.930 --> 20:09.570]  You know, I don't think it should be...
[20:09.570 --> 20:12.090]  Obviously, it's probably not legal he'll have a lawsuit.
[20:12.350 --> 20:12.630]  Yeah.
[20:12.670 --> 20:13.330]  Once he gets out.
[20:13.670 --> 20:18.090]  But I think they should have to wait until he's had a fair trial in order to have this film.
[20:18.090 --> 20:18.890]  And they should use his real name.
[20:19.210 --> 20:23.710]  If they want to change the facts of the story, they should change the name and make it a fictional story.
[20:23.710 --> 20:25.450]  Three and a half years is a long time.
[20:25.610 --> 20:28.570]  Think about what you've done for the last three and a half years.
[20:28.910 --> 20:33.310]  And imagine being in jail while all that stuff was happening.
[20:33.790 --> 20:34.110]  Wow.
[20:34.390 --> 20:35.610]  For just...
[20:35.610 --> 20:36.250]  For that.
[20:36.610 --> 20:38.410]  Just for copying software.
[20:38.630 --> 20:38.870]  Right.
[20:39.110 --> 20:39.450]  You know?
[20:39.630 --> 20:40.390]  I've copied software.
[20:41.110 --> 20:41.990]  What did he do?
[20:42.170 --> 20:42.990]  Oh, he hacked.
[20:43.210 --> 20:43.730]  He hacked.
[20:44.310 --> 20:49.670]  So I just would like to know your opinion on the slandering in this film.
[20:51.390 --> 20:51.750]  Uh...
[20:52.790 --> 20:53.510]  Miramax sucks.
[20:54.110 --> 20:55.210]  So, like, free Kevin.
[20:57.930 --> 21:02.810]  Well, you know, I can't, I can't, like, talk s*** about a movie I haven't seen or read the script of, you know?
[21:03.050 --> 21:03.410]  Okay.
[21:03.570 --> 21:12.530]  But I guess the, the one relevant thing that I could say is it seems to me there is a witch hunt, sort of hysterical mentality vis-a-vis hacking, you know?
[21:12.710 --> 21:23.490]  And the people are very quick to fly off the handle and condemn, you know, as terrorists, people who are, you know, exploring, like, a new technology landscape in a way that they don't understand, you know?
[21:23.690 --> 21:24.030]  Definitely.
[21:24.350 --> 21:26.750]  That's sort of, you know, as far as I could go, not having seen it.
[21:26.950 --> 21:31.390]  Not only did we find a receptive bunch at the local theaters, they even started to do our work for us.
[21:31.890 --> 21:34.230]  New York was great, but it was only the start.
[21:35.270 --> 21:36.190]  That's certainly true.
[21:36.190 --> 21:38.250]  It was only the start, and what a start it was.
[21:38.490 --> 21:54.850]  That was a clip from, uh, Clip from Freedom Downtime, the, uh, documentary which we have, uh, released very recently to the world, and it's been, uh, it's been met with quite a lot of interest, and we hope that people here at the radio station also see the value of,
[21:54.930 --> 21:57.450]  uh, people going out there and making their own documentaries.
[21:58.090 --> 22:01.670]  212-209-2950 is the number to call to support the radio station.
[22:01.670 --> 22:05.910]  You can get your own copy of Freedom Downtime with a call to the pledge line.
[22:06.790 --> 22:10.810]  And, uh, Porsche, what do you think of, uh, that whole set of, uh, interviews and adventure?
[22:11.130 --> 22:11.390]  That whole section?
[22:11.510 --> 22:19.710]  Well, actually, one comment I just, I just was thinking as I was listening to this is, it's amazing how well documentaries lap over into radio.
[22:19.870 --> 22:21.270]  I mean, you can't see the names of the people.
[22:21.550 --> 22:21.570]  Yeah, yeah.
[22:21.670 --> 22:22.650]  And you can't see their faces.
[22:22.830 --> 22:27.990]  For example, there's, uh, actually, one of the guys in Pi was, was interviewed by us.
[22:27.990 --> 22:30.130]  That last guy was the star of Pi, that's true.
[22:30.130 --> 22:31.970]  Outside of the Angelica, which is where we filmed that.
[22:32.150 --> 22:35.630]  You don't know that from, from hearing him, but you would know that if you saw the actual film.
[22:35.770 --> 22:36.150]  That's right.
[22:36.330 --> 22:37.630]  It was, uh, it was interesting.
[22:37.850 --> 22:40.950]  We ran out, we ran to some great people outside the Angelica there.
[22:41.270 --> 22:42.490]  That's most of what you heard there.
[22:42.630 --> 22:43.310]  It was our second day of filming.
[22:43.310 --> 22:44.090]  Kevin Bacon walked by, too.
[22:44.210 --> 22:45.850]  Kevin Bacon has a walk on it on the film.
[22:46.130 --> 22:47.370]  I didn't even know it.
[22:47.910 --> 22:48.070]  Yeah.
[22:48.350 --> 22:52.090]  Uh, actually, somebody asked me, what's your, what's, how many steps away are you from Kevin Bacon?
[22:52.230 --> 22:54.270]  Because apparently that's the one thing that everybody said.
[22:54.270 --> 22:54.970]  He bumped right into us.
[22:55.050 --> 22:55.190]  He bumped right into us.
[22:55.190 --> 22:56.190]  So no steps at all.
[22:56.330 --> 22:58.470]  We are, we're, we're zero degrees from Kevin Bacon.
[22:58.470 --> 23:00.070]  212-209-2950.
[23:00.290 --> 23:01.790]  We have a good amount.
[23:01.930 --> 23:02.470]  We have 2,200.
[23:02.530 --> 23:06.290]  Actually, we had some very generous pledges, one in particular.
[23:06.470 --> 23:08.130]  We want to thank that person.
[23:08.630 --> 23:17.410]  But the downside to that is that it means that not enough small pledges have come in because this number is a little less than where we should be at.
[23:17.450 --> 23:22.630]  So we really need to get a rampage of calls coming in at 212-209-2950.
[23:22.890 --> 23:23.870]  Pledge is $75.
[23:23.870 --> 23:35.630]  You get a copy of the film, the two-hour film that you just heard an excerpt from, which details the history of the Free Kevin movement and also the hacker culture and all kinds of other adventures that we had as we traveled across the country.
[23:36.550 --> 23:47.190]  And in addition to that, you will get a 2,600 T-shirt, the most recent release, the one that chronicles all the different corporate lawsuits that have been filed or threatened against us, as well as some interesting graphics.
[23:47.510 --> 23:48.870]  That's for a $75 pledge.
[23:48.970 --> 23:55.830]  For a $125 pledge, you get all of that, plus two tickets to the H2K2 conference, which is coming up in July here in New York City.
[23:55.830 --> 23:58.130]  That alone is a $100 value.
[23:58.330 --> 24:01.530]  So you're really doing good by calling us.
[24:01.610 --> 24:11.030]  But the most important thing is that we need you to support us at 212-209-2950 because we're the only radio station out there that would have the guts to air anything like this.
[24:11.350 --> 24:14.830]  And you might say, well, you know, this doesn't seem too outrageous.
[24:14.890 --> 24:16.470]  It's not too outrageous.
[24:16.470 --> 24:32.490]  It's outrageous enough, though, for the mainstream media to be afraid of it, to turn their backs on it, to simply ignore the story and give you some ridiculousness that they give you on the 6 o'clock news.
[24:32.490 --> 24:41.810]  So if you're tired of that, if you want to do something alternative, if you want to have a chance at having your voice heard, this is the place you need to support.
[24:41.950 --> 24:46.730]  You support every other radio station already by buying things because those are commercial radio stations.
[24:46.730 --> 24:50.570]  And they get an advertising budget.
[24:50.970 --> 24:55.810]  And that advertising budget affects the price of things that we buy and we don't really have a choice about.
[24:55.810 --> 25:00.490]  This radio station, though, it's all up to you if we succeed or if we fail.
[25:00.610 --> 25:02.270]  212-209-2950.
[25:02.470 --> 25:02.950]  I'll say this.
[25:03.310 --> 25:07.910]  If we had not had this radio station, we would not have had this film.
[25:08.010 --> 25:08.930]  It's as simple as that.
[25:09.050 --> 25:10.050]  It all ties together.
[25:10.310 --> 25:13.010]  You know, the magazine does one particular thing.
[25:13.170 --> 25:14.890]  The radio show does one other thing.
[25:14.970 --> 25:16.190]  The film does yet another thing.
[25:16.910 --> 25:18.310]  It all ties together.
[25:18.310 --> 25:33.210]  And without the power, the organizing power of airwaves to reach people, to have those meetings, to have those demonstrations outside Miramax, and to talk with people around the country, we never would have been able to do this.
[25:33.410 --> 25:40.270]  And this film would not have come out and it probably would have affected Kevin's case in a bad way by not having people out there to support him.
[25:40.270 --> 25:43.470]  Think of what we've done over the years with people like Bernie S.
[25:43.530 --> 25:46.450]  and Phiber Optik, where we've told you the stories as they were happening.
[25:46.910 --> 25:49.210]  You can't do that in mass media.
[25:49.450 --> 25:51.290]  And you probably never will be able to.
[25:51.590 --> 25:56.970]  You need radio stations like this, and the only way this station will continue to exist is if people support it.
[25:57.150 --> 25:58.170]  Yeah, we could have commercials.
[25:58.330 --> 26:02.090]  I guess legally we could have commercials because we're above 92 on the FM dial.
[26:02.690 --> 26:09.870]  But if we did that, then the sponsors might get upset that, well, you know, we're criticizing them or we're saying things that they don't want to hear.
[26:10.270 --> 26:13.390]  And they're going to assume that individual people don't want to hear them as well.
[26:13.810 --> 26:16.210]  We think individual people are a little more intelligent than that.
[26:16.270 --> 26:17.510]  They can make up their own minds.
[26:17.670 --> 26:21.190]  And that's what we've been relying on since the station went on the air in 1960.
[26:21.850 --> 26:23.910]  So I think it's working.
[26:24.250 --> 26:26.770]  But you need to help us continue to make it work.
[26:27.550 --> 26:28.910]  212-209-2950.
[26:28.910 --> 26:30.310]  Only one call on the line.
[26:30.690 --> 26:33.390]  I know there's more people out there that care.
[26:34.250 --> 26:34.970]  Hang on a second.
[26:35.110 --> 26:35.410]  Your mic's on.
[26:35.530 --> 26:35.850]  There you go.
[26:36.090 --> 26:44.650]  For people who may not be able to afford some of the premiums you just offered, there's a basic membership, which is $50, as well as a student and low-income membership at $25.
[26:45.030 --> 26:48.550]  So really, any amount helps support the station in this program.
[26:48.650 --> 26:51.610]  So please call even if you can't give some of the higher amounts.
[26:51.770 --> 26:52.170]  That's right.
[26:52.330 --> 26:53.490]  Every amount matters.
[26:53.490 --> 26:55.350]  And it all adds up.
[26:55.470 --> 26:56.030]  It all adds up.
[26:56.030 --> 26:58.990]  We're at $25.75 right now, which is great.
[26:58.990 --> 27:02.950]  We got there by a combination of big and small donations.
[27:03.750 --> 27:07.250]  But, you know, it's not that I don't want big contributions.
[27:07.250 --> 27:08.070]  Yeah, they're great.
[27:08.230 --> 27:08.690]  They're wonderful.
[27:09.450 --> 27:13.370]  But I don't want to make it seem as if the small ones don't matter.
[27:13.530 --> 27:17.590]  Everybody who pledges whatever it is they can afford, it all adds up.
[27:17.690 --> 27:18.950]  It gets us to where we are now.
[27:19.090 --> 27:23.810]  And, you know, this radio station would not be in existence today were it not for the listeners.
[27:23.810 --> 27:32.210]  And I'm talking to, you know, about very recent events, things that happened over the last year where we faced a pretty uncertain future.
[27:32.390 --> 27:33.570]  And there were the listeners.
[27:33.730 --> 27:42.030]  The listeners were the people who were always there for us, who always knew when things were being told to them or when the truth was being withheld from them.
[27:42.510 --> 27:45.590]  They're the people who showed up at the demonstrations to save this place.
[27:45.590 --> 27:51.410]  Well, think of this as one big demonstration to continue to save this place by pledging, by keeping us going.
[27:51.570 --> 27:53.190]  212-209-2950.
[27:53.390 --> 27:57.810]  This is our only fundraiser of this particular fundraising drive here at Off the Hook.
[27:58.490 --> 28:06.410]  So if you want to support this particular show and give us a strong showing in the current marathon, please give us a call now.
[28:06.510 --> 28:08.290]  212-209-2950.
[28:08.290 --> 28:12.810]  So anyone else have any comments on the clips we just heard?
[28:15.410 --> 28:20.390]  Well, not so much on the clip, but did you mention the fact that this is an award-winning film now?
[28:20.550 --> 28:22.010]  Actually, I guess technically it is.
[28:22.170 --> 28:22.430]  Yeah.
[28:22.730 --> 28:28.010]  Because at the New York City Independent Film and Video Festival, I think I got all the words, right?
[28:28.690 --> 28:29.550]  Yeah, sounds right.
[28:29.830 --> 28:30.790]  Most New York...
[28:30.790 --> 28:31.530]  No, I missed one.
[28:31.570 --> 28:37.570]  New York City Independent International Film and Video Festival, which took place a couple of months ago here in New York.
[28:37.570 --> 28:40.830]  We won the Audience Appreciation Award.
[28:41.290 --> 28:42.910]  I'm not quite sure how we won it, but we did.
[28:43.950 --> 28:45.190]  And that's really cool.
[28:45.330 --> 28:46.650]  I mean, I wasn't expecting anything like that.
[28:46.670 --> 28:51.890]  I just remember going there on that day and seeing people lined up to the street corner to get into the film.
[28:51.890 --> 28:54.090]  That was the most amazing feeling I think I've ever felt.
[28:54.210 --> 29:02.970]  Just, wow, people actually will get up on a Saturday afternoon and come down and, you know, pay to see a film that, you know, we made.
[29:03.110 --> 29:04.170]  It's really good.
[29:04.310 --> 29:06.390]  It makes you feel like, wow, it really does matter.
[29:06.390 --> 29:07.650]  The message is really getting out there.
[29:08.430 --> 29:09.070]  But you know what?
[29:09.150 --> 29:11.230]  This message isn't getting out there because there's no calls on the line.
[29:11.330 --> 29:13.530]  212-209-2950.
[29:13.970 --> 29:21.930]  If you've ever gotten anything out of this place or 2600 or off the hook, please give us a call and show your support.
[29:22.670 --> 29:23.730]  Keep the radio station going.
[29:23.790 --> 29:24.850]  We have some people to thank.
[29:25.210 --> 29:25.610]  Yeah, we do.
[29:25.870 --> 29:31.770]  We want to thank Kevin from Riverside, Connecticut, who says it's so good to finally hear the whole story.
[29:31.770 --> 29:32.510]  All right.
[29:32.750 --> 29:36.970]  And we have an especially generous pledge from Dorothy from Southampton.
[29:38.090 --> 29:40.550]  A pledge from Ken in...
[29:40.550 --> 29:41.890]  I cannot read this.
[29:42.030 --> 29:43.190]  It's on Long Island, though.
[29:43.350 --> 29:44.690]  Wait, let me try that because I'm from Long Island.
[29:44.770 --> 29:44.990]  Okay.
[29:45.310 --> 29:47.210]  I can read some of the hieroglyphics from there.
[29:47.470 --> 29:48.370]  This is Centerage.
[29:48.630 --> 29:49.010]  Centerage.
[29:49.070 --> 29:49.250]  Yes.
[29:49.690 --> 29:49.970]  All right.
[29:50.650 --> 29:51.150]  Thank you very much.
[29:51.430 --> 29:52.510]  Frank from New York City.
[29:52.950 --> 29:53.870]  Manhattan, I guess.
[29:54.570 --> 29:55.610]  Marcus from Jamaica.
[29:57.730 --> 30:00.670]  Scott from Bellevue, Washington.
[30:01.010 --> 30:01.470]  Oh, wow.
[30:01.530 --> 30:02.230]  Bellevue, Washington.
[30:02.450 --> 30:02.570]  Yeah.
[30:02.710 --> 30:03.570]  Home of Microsoft.
[30:04.150 --> 30:04.390]  Right.
[30:04.630 --> 30:05.050]  No.
[30:05.250 --> 30:05.890]  They're from Redmond.
[30:06.050 --> 30:06.450]  That's Redmond.
[30:06.650 --> 30:06.910]  Oh, okay.
[30:07.170 --> 30:07.970]  But near there.
[30:08.550 --> 30:08.610]  Okay.
[30:08.610 --> 30:11.550]  And yet he fights the evil empire enough to donate to the station.
[30:11.790 --> 30:11.810]  There you go.
[30:11.830 --> 30:12.550]  That's the spirit.
[30:12.730 --> 30:12.830]  Right.
[30:12.830 --> 30:14.050]  He's not even within listening range.
[30:14.410 --> 30:16.690]  Well, everyone's within listening range now with the internet.
[30:16.950 --> 30:18.430]  But maybe not soon.
[30:18.890 --> 30:19.390]  Well, it depends.
[30:19.550 --> 30:20.630]  If this copyright thing goes through.
[30:20.630 --> 30:21.430]  If the copyright thing goes through.
[30:21.510 --> 30:23.730]  You see, why do you think people want to stop things like that?
[30:23.870 --> 30:27.350]  You know, it's an empowerment tool to be able to reach people.
[30:28.230 --> 30:30.330]  We also want to thank Dan from Brooklyn.
[30:31.630 --> 30:32.930]  Felicia from Flushing.
[30:34.630 --> 30:36.550]  Alexander from Coram on Long Island.
[30:38.150 --> 30:39.390]  Aaron from Plattsburgh.
[30:40.730 --> 30:43.310]  A different Aaron from Newport News, Virginia.
[30:43.490 --> 30:44.490]  Two Aarons in one night.
[30:44.590 --> 30:44.770]  Yeah.
[30:44.970 --> 30:46.270]  Any other Aarons out there, come on.
[30:46.330 --> 30:47.050]  Let's make it to three.
[30:47.370 --> 30:48.250]  You know, three Aarons.
[30:48.350 --> 30:48.630]  That would be great.
[30:48.710 --> 30:50.190]  And we have Rick from Atlanta, Georgia.
[30:50.530 --> 30:50.890]  All right.
[30:50.890 --> 30:53.450]  Thanks so much for calling all the way from down south.
[30:54.230 --> 30:56.750]  Of course, we hope there's a lot more people out there.
[30:56.830 --> 30:57.450]  They usually are.
[30:57.570 --> 30:58.810]  We usually get a lot more calls than this.
[30:58.950 --> 31:00.790]  So don't disappoint us.
[31:00.850 --> 31:02.870]  Don't make us think that the film is scaring people away.
[31:03.010 --> 31:04.190]  You know, that would be kind of weird.
[31:04.990 --> 31:06.510]  212-209-2950.
[31:06.750 --> 31:09.030]  We want to get, you know, all three banks lit.
[31:09.030 --> 31:19.290]  Which, you know, the last time, or the last couple of times when we did this, we had so many calls that the people were angry at us when we left because we kept them working so hard answering phone calls.
[31:19.490 --> 31:29.450]  And while, you know, I don't relish making new enemies, it is, you know, kind of a good thing to really get the phones hopping so that lots and lots of phone calls come in, lots of support comes in.
[31:29.510 --> 31:36.250]  Because in the end, when you add it all up, it looks like we're really, really ahead and doing well, which, of course, we are.
[31:36.310 --> 31:37.070]  We have more people to thank.
[31:37.450 --> 31:38.250]  Yes, we do.
[31:38.390 --> 31:48.850]  We want to thank Gabriel from Brooklyn and an anonymous donor who says, remember, our green friend from Dayton in Connecticut just pledged for H2K2 tickets.
[31:49.130 --> 31:49.390]  Okay.
[31:50.190 --> 31:52.470]  Yes, I think we just had a pledge from Mars.
[31:54.070 --> 31:54.890]  Okay, that's great.
[31:55.010 --> 31:56.950]  That's really wonderful.
[31:57.650 --> 32:00.330]  And I want to thank all the people out there in Dayton who voiced their support.
[32:00.330 --> 32:09.150]  People who come up to us and say, hang in there, we're behind you, you know, even though they couldn't say it too loudly because, you know, they were afraid that, you know, maybe their parents might hear or something like that.
[32:09.850 --> 32:14.250]  It's just great to see people who understand and know the importance of sticking together.
[32:14.990 --> 32:16.450]  212-209-2950.
[32:16.590 --> 32:17.550]  Again, the phone lines are empty.
[32:17.710 --> 32:19.170]  We're up to 2575.
[32:19.190 --> 32:22.510]  I think we just got a couple of calls, but we really need to see some more.
[32:23.090 --> 32:24.130]  Here's a letter that we got.
[32:24.230 --> 32:33.330]  After hearing all about Freedom Downtime, I have made a decision to buy a copy and was wondering if you think anyone would mind if I encoded it to an AVI or some similar format to share the story amongst friends.
[32:33.910 --> 32:39.750]  I believe that this would help share the story of Kevin and be a good way to distribute the info at my next 2600 local meeting.
[32:40.110 --> 32:45.650]  Well, that's exactly what we are advocating, is getting the message out however possible.
[32:46.050 --> 32:52.950]  And in fact, on the internet now, someone even gave this to me at Dayton, there are copies being distributed.
[32:53.310 --> 33:08.650]  Unlike the mainstream movie companies that go out and try to shut people down whenever they do something like this, the small-time film company that we have started here likes when people do that because it gets the word out.
[33:08.830 --> 33:09.830]  It creates interest.
[33:09.830 --> 33:12.410]  It spreads the message that we're trying to get across.
[33:12.790 --> 33:19.210]  Yeah, I guess if everybody who ever saw this film paid for a copy, then we could probably make more money.
[33:19.230 --> 33:21.290]  But you should never make a movie to make money.
[33:21.690 --> 33:26.190]  And you should never assume that everybody who watches it is a customer.
[33:26.190 --> 33:31.250]  These are all individual people that have their own perspectives on things.
[33:31.410 --> 33:33.710]  And whatever you have to do to see this film, do it.
[33:34.350 --> 33:40.970]  The only thing we ask is that people not say that they made it or sell it at a profit and that kind of thing.
[33:41.470 --> 33:42.190]  The obvious.
[33:43.950 --> 33:45.310]  So, yeah, absolutely.
[33:46.030 --> 33:46.970]  Make copies of it.
[33:47.070 --> 33:47.410]  Put it up.
[33:47.510 --> 33:47.830]  Stream it.
[33:47.950 --> 33:48.710]  Whatever you have to do.
[33:48.950 --> 33:51.090]  And let people know about it.
[33:51.090 --> 33:53.170]  I think we even say something on the box about that.
[33:54.210 --> 33:55.090]  Hand me the box.
[33:55.330 --> 33:56.210]  I have one here.
[33:56.370 --> 33:56.670]  I have one there.
[33:57.170 --> 33:57.790]  Let's see.
[33:57.830 --> 33:58.350]  What does it say?
[33:59.050 --> 34:00.350]  Very tiny print here.
[34:00.510 --> 34:01.430]  The very bottom of the bag.
[34:01.550 --> 34:06.910]  Free and unaltered broadcasting, netcasting, and copying are encouraged.
[34:07.330 --> 34:11.930]  Imagine seeing that on Star Wars 2 or whatever just came out.
[34:13.430 --> 34:15.070]  Yeah, you'll never see it there.
[34:15.370 --> 34:16.130]  You know, and it's...
[34:16.130 --> 34:21.390]  These people make so much as it is, you'd think that, you know, they wouldn't mind something like that.
[34:21.470 --> 34:22.830]  But, you know, that's their right.
[34:22.990 --> 34:25.510]  That's their right not to want things copied freely.
[34:25.690 --> 34:26.370]  We do.
[34:27.650 --> 34:30.930]  And we help people out there respect that as well.
[34:31.110 --> 34:32.770]  212-209-2950.
[34:33.010 --> 34:37.710]  But at the same time, we want people to be able to support what we do.
[34:37.710 --> 34:41.970]  And that comes about from people supporting the radio station.
[34:42.190 --> 34:42.850]  That's what we need now.
[34:42.950 --> 34:44.350]  212-209-2950.
[34:44.590 --> 34:49.810]  While you were in Dayton, actually, I was in... at MIT, actually, in Boston.
[34:50.010 --> 35:01.850]  And we met up with some people there who had some friends, who had some friends, who had some friends, who could tell what was being put on... what was being inserted into one of the search engines for media files.
[35:02.110 --> 35:11.090]  And for the day after we released Freedom Downtime, the number one search hit, which was something like sex, was Freedom Downtime Video.
[35:11.330 --> 35:11.830]  You're kidding.
[35:12.130 --> 35:12.570]  I'm not kidding.
[35:12.610 --> 35:13.130]  This was where?
[35:13.350 --> 35:16.130]  This was... this was... a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.
[35:16.650 --> 35:16.910]  Uh-huh.
[35:17.010 --> 35:17.530]  In Boston.
[35:17.770 --> 35:18.450]  I think I know him.
[35:18.730 --> 35:20.130]  Yeah, or... actually, you do.
[35:21.150 --> 35:22.150]  I'll explain later.
[35:25.050 --> 35:31.090]  Said... said that we were the number one search hit on this... on this specific search engine, which was for media files.
[35:31.230 --> 35:31.830]  Wow, that's great.
[35:32.450 --> 35:36.090]  That tells me that people care, that there's an interest going out there.
[35:36.570 --> 35:43.830]  And, uh, yeah, if I was of the Hollywood ilk, I guess I would be tearing my hair out saying that, uh, oh my God, we could be making billions of dollars now.
[35:43.930 --> 35:45.790]  But, uh, you know, it's... I don't think so.
[35:45.830 --> 35:46.970]  I don't think that's how it works.
[35:47.470 --> 35:50.630]  You know, if... if people are interested in something, then you've won.
[35:50.770 --> 35:52.910]  You've gotten your message out, and that's what it's all about.
[35:53.010 --> 35:55.050]  And that's... that's what people here at WBAI appreciate.
[35:55.050 --> 35:56.390]  That's what our listeners appreciate.
[35:56.750 --> 36:00.890]  You know, we choose to tell the story in this particular way, and we just want the word to get out.
[36:01.490 --> 36:02.770]  But, you know, it costs money.
[36:02.770 --> 36:04.490]  It costs money to keep this place here.
[36:04.630 --> 36:09.330]  It costs money to keep the transmitter on, the electricity, and the machines fixed, and all that kind of thing.
[36:09.450 --> 36:15.030]  But, uh, I can tell you right now, nobody, nobody gets rich from this place.
[36:15.050 --> 36:18.010]  In fact, uh, relatively few people even get paid at all.
[36:18.090 --> 36:19.550]  And those are only administrative people.
[36:19.930 --> 36:26.030]  And, uh, and other professional types that you absolutely need to have to keep the place running in the first place.
[36:26.030 --> 36:29.810]  People who are here every single day for 10 plus hours a day.
[36:29.810 --> 36:33.650]  Uh, but nobody here at the, at, uh, off the hook gets paid for, for this.
[36:33.850 --> 36:36.290]  We just come in and, um, and, and volunteer our time.
[36:36.390 --> 36:39.170]  And that's, that's what it's all about is volunteer efforts.
[36:40.270 --> 36:42.530]  So, prove that volunteerism can work.
[36:42.750 --> 36:44.410]  212-209-2950.
[36:44.610 --> 36:46.270]  We have two phone calls on the line, which is great.
[36:47.350 --> 36:48.570]  Let's build that up.
[36:48.710 --> 36:49.610]  Let's keep that going.
[36:50.410 --> 36:55.450]  Okay, we have a special guest with us right now who joins us from North Carolina.
[36:55.450 --> 37:00.810]  You may have, uh, heard the name on the internet of Uzi Nissan.
[37:01.530 --> 37:06.410]  This is a guy who, uh, is the founder and president of Nissan Computer Corporation.
[37:06.930 --> 37:10.850]  He came to this country from Israel in, uh, 1976.
[37:11.930 --> 37:16.890]  And, uh, the Nissan name has been in his family for as long as his family has been around.
[37:16.890 --> 37:29.750]  Uh, all that has fallen on deaf ears because the Nissan Motor Company, or whatever they're called, uh, has decided that they are the only Nissans that, uh, have the right to exist and use that name.
[37:29.990 --> 37:41.390]  And they are trying to, uh, to sue the Nissan family to get the domain name nissan.com, which, uh, was registered back in 1994 by Uzi Nissan.
[37:41.950 --> 37:44.330]  Uh, and Uzi Nissan, you join us now from North Carolina.
[37:44.470 --> 37:44.770]  Are you there?
[37:45.190 --> 37:45.730]  Yeah, I'm here.
[37:45.730 --> 37:46.330]  Great.
[37:46.510 --> 37:48.310]  So, uh, give us a little bit of background here.
[37:48.470 --> 37:51.790]  Now, uh, what, um, that, that is your name.
[37:51.850 --> 37:52.610]  Your name is Nissan.
[37:52.750 --> 37:53.510]  It's always been your name.
[37:53.830 --> 37:54.190]  Correct.
[37:54.650 --> 37:58.270]  Uh, what, what, what kinds of things do you do on your website?
[37:59.110 --> 38:07.870]  Well, on the website, on nissan.com, we, uh, we, uh, advertise our services, computers, parts, servers, uh, services.
[38:09.610 --> 38:11.310]  That's what we do on nissan.com.
[38:11.470 --> 38:11.770]  Okay.
[38:12.330 --> 38:14.270]  With, uh, just, I'd just like to correct something.
[38:14.270 --> 38:16.370]  And Nissan Motors is not trying to sue me.
[38:16.450 --> 38:17.590]  They sued me already.
[38:17.790 --> 38:18.050]  Okay.
[38:18.950 --> 38:20.410]  That's, uh, that's a good distinction to make.
[38:20.630 --> 38:23.190]  And it's in federal court in, uh, in Los Angeles.
[38:23.610 --> 38:23.810]  Mm-hmm.
[38:24.610 --> 38:35.770]  So, now, their, their view is that because, I guess, they're bigger than you, and, and they have, you know, a car company, that they're the only ones that would be entitled to call themselves nissan.com.
[38:36.290 --> 38:37.350]  Correct, correct.
[38:37.650 --> 38:44.770]  And, uh, you know, just to give you a little, uh, background of, uh, of the term nissan, it is a biblical term from the Old Testament.
[38:44.770 --> 38:47.210]  It's the seventh month in the Hebrew calendar.
[38:48.430 --> 38:54.710]  And, uh, and it's, uh, it's been in my family as far as I know for at least seven generations.
[38:57.510 --> 38:59.190]  Did you expect this kind of a thing to happen?
[38:59.670 --> 39:00.730]  No, I did not.
[39:01.170 --> 39:02.270]  Not, not at all.
[39:02.510 --> 39:02.730]  Mm-hmm.
[39:03.090 --> 39:05.130]  And what was, what was the first thing that, that took place?
[39:05.290 --> 39:05.310]  Okay.
[39:05.310 --> 39:06.430]  You registered the site in 1994.
[39:06.470 --> 39:07.310]  What happened then?
[39:07.750 --> 39:09.730]  Well, uh, let's go a little further back.
[39:09.970 --> 39:15.150]  You know, I, uh, I, uh, started, uh, using my last name in businesses since 1980.
[39:16.130 --> 39:18.890]  My first business was Nissan Foreign Car.
[39:18.990 --> 39:20.330]  I was, uh, I had a garage.
[39:20.990 --> 39:23.550]  That's when Nissan was not even Nissan.
[39:23.750 --> 39:24.370]  It was Datsun.
[39:25.810 --> 39:28.990]  And, uh, they changed the name in the mid-80s.
[39:29.190 --> 39:37.570]  Uh, in 1987, I started another company, uh, Nissan International, which we did, uh, export.
[39:38.330 --> 39:42.570]  And in 1991, uh, started Nissan Computer.
[39:43.270 --> 39:48.850]  In 1994, registered the, the domain name.
[39:49.710 --> 39:52.510]  And we are still, uh, Nissan Computer.
[39:52.710 --> 39:53.750]  We're still holding up.
[39:53.910 --> 39:56.270]  You know how hard it is to go through federal court.
[39:56.410 --> 39:56.890]  Oh, yeah.
[39:57.450 --> 40:00.070]  And, uh, and, uh, but we, we're still standing.
[40:01.290 --> 40:08.870]  Uh, they, they, they, they are, they're trying all kind of bully tactics, you know, from, from the beginning.
[40:09.690 --> 40:18.690]  Uh, they, uh, they, uh, they said that, uh, I even misspelled my name just to have it the same spelling as theirs.
[40:19.510 --> 40:20.390]  Misspelled your name?
[40:20.690 --> 40:22.110]  Yeah, that's, that's what they said.
[40:22.250 --> 40:28.450]  But as much as we ask for evidence for that, they did not, you know, they, they did not submit anything.
[40:28.950 --> 40:30.250]  So they dropped that.
[40:31.350 --> 40:34.990]  But, uh, you know, they, they, they try all kind of bully tactics.
[40:35.250 --> 40:35.850]  All kind.
[40:36.330 --> 40:42.210]  Uh, for example, uh, you know, I did not know that, but, uh, uh, you know, I was deposed for four days.
[40:42.410 --> 40:45.710]  But, uh, you know, the, the CEO of Nissan Motors is protected by law.
[40:45.870 --> 40:46.870]  We cannot depose him.
[40:47.690 --> 40:48.090]  Really?
[40:48.650 --> 40:49.050]  Yes.
[40:49.250 --> 40:50.630]  That was the order from the court.
[40:50.870 --> 40:53.270]  What kind of law is that that protects him from being deposed?
[40:53.450 --> 40:54.850]  Well, let me put it this way.
[40:54.850 --> 41:05.530]  When you get an order from the court that says, that starts, the first of all, it's denial to depose the CEO of Nissan Motors and it starts, the law is clear.
[41:06.650 --> 41:07.910]  What does that tell you?
[41:10.250 --> 41:15.150]  You know, so, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's a David and Goliath, uh, syndrome.
[41:15.410 --> 41:19.450]  And, uh, I expected, uh, some, some, some, some of that to happen.
[41:19.450 --> 41:21.590]  I did not expect it so much of it to happen.
[41:21.590 --> 41:26.170]  But, uh, what, what are the kinds of bullying tactics have they, uh, engaged in?
[41:26.610 --> 41:29.270]  Well, um, let me give you another example.
[41:29.570 --> 41:35.050]  Uh, uh, there were some, uh, judgment on, uh, on, on summary judgments.
[41:35.090 --> 41:45.290]  You know, we won the cyber squatting and, uh, the judge, uh, almost gave us the dilution, but, uh, they argued that.
[41:45.290 --> 41:59.150]  And on, uh, on a hearsay, which was just an article in the newspaper in 1989, they said, well, we were famous because this newspaper article said that Nissan was, uh, one of the top 200 marks in the United States.
[41:59.150 --> 42:23.530]  So the judge sent it to trial, uh, uh, you know, a few weeks later, they start, uh, putting more documents into, into another, uh, summary judgment, uh, you know, uh, try that we asked for those documents in February of 2001 and they have not produced it.
[42:23.530 --> 42:27.090]  So we moved to strike those documents out.
[42:27.290 --> 42:31.270]  No, of course, the judge, the, the court allowed that.
[42:31.530 --> 43:01.610]  So now they're going on a second chance on summary judgment on dilution, which, you know, we, we all don't understand how can it be dilution at all in this case, since we have a, um, uh, a contract that's signed by the CEO of Nissan Motors with five other Japanese conglomerate CEOs that allows all six companies to use the mark Nissan.
[43:02.650 --> 43:10.070]  So if Nissan Motors CEO signed that contract in their own doing, they are diluting their name.
[43:10.230 --> 43:12.770]  So how can I dilute their name?
[43:13.890 --> 43:16.650]  Now, you said, you said you won on the, uh, cyber squatting.
[43:16.730 --> 43:18.390]  You want to tell us something about, uh, what that entailed?
[43:18.390 --> 43:33.190]  Well, yeah, uh, the cyber squatting, it's, uh, it's, uh, a kind of a vague law that, uh, always when you have a problem, always when you have something that says bad faith, how do you prove bad faith?
[43:34.270 --> 43:45.550]  You know, so, uh, they, uh, they, uh, the, uh, the cyber squatting law came in November 29th, 1999, and I was sued 11 days after that.
[43:46.830 --> 43:55.210]  And that's, uh, that's a law that usually protects the big names from people registering their mark and trying to sell it to them.
[43:56.590 --> 44:04.310]  But, uh, at, at this, at this case, the judge, uh, there are eight points to the law, which I can't remember all eight points.
[44:04.590 --> 44:08.610]  He went through all the eight points and found all eight points in our favor.
[44:08.770 --> 44:12.450]  So he said on summary judgment, there's no cyber squatting here.
[44:13.730 --> 44:14.970]  So we won that.
[44:15.270 --> 44:15.390]  Okay.
[44:16.690 --> 44:30.570]  And, uh, in the, uh, trademark infringement, uh, we lost the trade, the, the trademark infringement on automotive, uh, related products, which I still don't understand how it happened.
[44:30.610 --> 44:32.190]  But, you know, that's the way it went.
[44:32.330 --> 44:33.810]  Do you sell anything automotive related?
[44:34.010 --> 44:34.490]  Not at all.
[44:34.690 --> 44:34.810]  Okay.
[44:35.190 --> 44:36.450]  But I don't understand it either.
[44:36.570 --> 44:36.870]  Yeah.
[44:36.950 --> 44:39.430]  Well, we'll, we'll deal with it after the trial.
[44:39.650 --> 44:40.770]  We'll see what we're going to do with that.
[44:40.770 --> 44:46.230]  But we won the, uh, the, uh, trademark infringement on non-automotive products.
[44:46.550 --> 44:47.030]  Okay.
[44:47.530 --> 44:51.490]  And the dilution was sent to trial, which, uh, was delayed again.
[44:51.490 --> 44:54.510]  It's going to be on October 15th this year.
[44:54.670 --> 44:56.030]  Are you going to have a jury trial?
[44:56.350 --> 44:56.610]  Yeah.
[44:56.750 --> 44:57.830]  So that's going to be very interesting.
[44:58.090 --> 44:58.890]  Oh, yeah.
[45:00.030 --> 45:03.710]  That's, that's what keeps me going that I, uh, I have jury trial.
[45:03.970 --> 45:04.190]  Uh-huh.
[45:04.310 --> 45:05.610]  And where is this going to be held?
[45:05.810 --> 45:07.150]  In Los Angeles, California.
[45:07.590 --> 45:10.150]  In the Ninth Circuit Central, uh, District.
[45:10.150 --> 45:11.150]  Why Los Angeles?
[45:11.250 --> 45:12.150]  Because that's where they're based?
[45:12.550 --> 45:13.770]  That's where they're based.
[45:13.790 --> 45:20.530]  And, uh, they went to, uh, to the court and, uh, said that, uh, Nissan.com is on the internet.
[45:20.670 --> 45:24.150]  And that's enough for personal jurisdiction.
[45:24.550 --> 45:27.670]  Uh, we thought that it wasn't, but the court found that it was.
[45:29.070 --> 45:29.550]  Unbelievable.
[45:29.990 --> 45:30.470]  Unbelievable.
[45:30.870 --> 45:32.970]  But, you know, you have, we have to deal with that.
[45:33.250 --> 45:33.450]  Uh-huh.
[45:33.810 --> 45:36.390]  What, what kind of support have you gotten from the internet community?
[45:36.390 --> 45:39.730]  Oh, the internet community is just unbelievable.
[45:40.130 --> 45:40.630]  Just unbelievable.
[45:41.310 --> 45:56.530]  It's, the matter, the, the problem is just get the word out because up till now, 90, over 98% of the people just know about it and come to our site to read about it and to see the supporting articles.
[45:57.230 --> 46:05.970]  You know, what, what, what, what I'm, what I'm telling you that I started a business in 1980, which called Nissan foreign car, you go in there and you see documents.
[46:06.030 --> 46:09.390]  I have invoices that I bought parts from Datsun.
[46:09.470 --> 46:16.850]  You look at an invoice of Datsun in 1982 and 1983, the only mention to the word Nissan is my company.
[46:17.530 --> 46:17.730]  Uh-huh.
[46:18.030 --> 46:19.150]  Nothing printed on it.
[46:20.250 --> 46:28.170]  Uh, it, and, well, over 98% of people coming and reading it are voting against Nissan Motors and voting with their wallets, too.
[46:28.810 --> 46:29.210]  Uh-huh.
[46:29.470 --> 46:32.450]  So, uh, they, the main thing is to get the word out.
[46:33.230 --> 46:36.710]  And as you know, the mainstream media will not do that.
[46:38.510 --> 46:39.370]  So, uh...
[46:39.370 --> 46:40.630]  We know that pretty well up here.
[46:40.770 --> 46:41.170]  Oh, yeah.
[46:41.290 --> 46:44.990]  That's why we want people to support this place so that we can continue to tell stories like this.
[46:45.090 --> 46:50.550]  And again, for those of you that aren't calling in, 212-209-2950 is the phone number to support this place.
[46:51.090 --> 46:54.890]  Hopefully we'll get a lot of calls while we're talking so we don't have to go over that over and over again.
[46:55.130 --> 46:59.510]  Uh, tell us something about your attempts to get the mass media interested in this story.
[47:00.250 --> 47:07.710]  Well, let me, uh, I just, uh, I just talked, uh, talked, uh, six months ago with a lady who called me from the New York Times.
[47:08.350 --> 47:10.570]  She covers, uh, internet issues.
[47:11.670 --> 47:17.490]  And she interviewed me and, uh, I mentioned, uh, you know, are you sure you're gonna, you want all these things?
[47:17.790 --> 47:19.350]  Are you gonna write something?
[47:19.450 --> 47:20.150]  Because I was skeptical.
[47:20.710 --> 47:22.250]  And she said, oh yeah, no problem.
[47:22.410 --> 47:34.170]  She called me the next day and she said, you know, I think that what you told me yesterday, you're right, because when I went to my managing editor, he told me that this story is not internet story.
[47:34.390 --> 47:35.450]  It's automobile story.
[47:35.670 --> 47:38.190]  And the automobile correspondent will call Uzi Nissan.
[47:38.610 --> 47:39.170]  Uh-huh.
[47:39.750 --> 47:44.470]  And if you think that he called me, I got beautiful oceanfront property in Tennessee.
[47:45.330 --> 48:00.670]  You know, uh, this is one second, uh, now on my site, which is, by the way, let me mention it's ncchelp.org, NCC for Nissan Computer Corporation, ncchelp.org.
[48:00.670 --> 48:02.830]  That covers everything but the trial.
[48:03.330 --> 48:08.830]  If somebody forgets, they can always go to nissan.com and click on Nissan Motors lawsuit against us.
[48:09.910 --> 48:21.530]  And, uh, there we have, uh, like a link where you can, uh, uh, we have a mail form that you can go and fill and send an email to the media and it goes to about 45, 46 of the big names.
[48:23.470 --> 48:27.990]  Uh, one of them was, and let me mention that one of them was, uh, CBS News.
[48:28.270 --> 48:31.250]  There is a, there is a, uh, program there called Digital Dan.
[48:31.430 --> 48:32.590]  I don't know if you're familiar with that.
[48:33.290 --> 48:34.270]  Um, no.
[48:34.310 --> 48:34.970]  You heard of digital?
[48:35.170 --> 48:35.530]  Anyhow.
[48:36.530 --> 48:53.570]  Um, he called me after about maybe a week, week and a half that, uh, I understand there was like hundreds of emails from supporters went to the media and left me a nasty message, a nasty message to take his email address out.
[48:54.210 --> 48:56.050]  But I'm talking about really nasty.
[48:57.170 --> 49:02.330]  And, uh, you know, and, uh, I don't understand why, uh, bigger names never did that.
[49:02.330 --> 49:03.830]  And only he did that.
[49:04.470 --> 49:04.710]  Mm-hmm.
[49:04.890 --> 49:09.030]  You know, it's kind of, you know, you, you, it makes you think.
[49:10.990 --> 49:12.950]  Um, that's, that's what we're doing right now.
[49:13.070 --> 49:15.230]  Try to get it to the mainstream media.
[49:15.610 --> 49:18.710]  You know, we're trying to get them, and the supporters are just unbelievable.
[49:19.670 --> 49:24.650]  There's not one day that goes by without at least 100, 120 emails to the media.
[49:25.430 --> 49:25.870]  Wow.
[49:26.410 --> 49:31.770]  And yet, even with that, even with that kind of support, you still can't get your story into the mass media.
[49:31.990 --> 49:32.230]  Nope.
[49:33.130 --> 49:35.830]  So, uh, it's really not about people power, is it?
[49:35.890 --> 49:42.290]  I mean, the media just tells the story that they want to tell, uh, to, to prop up whatever is, is propping them up, I suppose.
[49:42.490 --> 49:43.430]  You're absolutely right.
[49:43.430 --> 49:47.910]  Well, you know, uh, I'm not saying that it's, that, that it's right.
[49:48.590 --> 49:56.750]  But, you know, Nissan Motors, from the papers that we got, are spending over $400 million in advertisement in the United States alone.
[49:58.650 --> 50:01.570]  So, you know, of course, they don't want to upset anybody.
[50:01.570 --> 50:03.110]  They want the piece of the pie.
[50:03.490 --> 50:05.590]  I'm not, I'm, I'm not justifying it.
[50:05.710 --> 50:08.870]  You know, I'm just telling you my opinion why I think it doesn't.
[50:08.870 --> 50:12.310]  It makes perfect sense when you, when you consider how it all is set up.
[50:12.350 --> 50:20.510]  And I think a lot of people might not realize that, who turn on the radio or read the newspapers, they think it's all just one big idealistic, uh, you know, free-for-all.
[50:20.590 --> 50:20.970]  It's not.
[50:21.090 --> 50:23.230]  It's, it's, it's a very biased type of a system.
[50:23.690 --> 50:31.170]  It's something that, uh, you know, you have to take a very aggressive interest in if you want to, uh, preserve, uh, places like this.
[50:31.330 --> 50:35.030]  Places that will keep you, uh, you know, keep alternative opinions out there.
[50:35.310 --> 50:35.730]  Absolutely.
[50:35.950 --> 50:37.830]  And before I forget, put me for one and a quarter.
[50:38.330 --> 50:39.310]  Oh, that's, that's great.
[50:39.590 --> 50:40.790]  Okay, before I forget that.
[50:40.930 --> 50:43.590]  Okay, well, we'll, we'll definitely won't let you forget that.
[50:43.850 --> 50:44.210]  All right.
[50:44.210 --> 50:49.650]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0, the station that, that, uh, even our own guests support.
[50:50.230 --> 50:51.990]  And it's, it's unbelievable.
[50:52.510 --> 50:53.610]  Good cause, good cause.
[50:53.830 --> 50:54.330]  Yes, Jeff.
[50:54.830 --> 50:56.150]  Yeah, I just have a quick question.
[50:56.330 --> 51:00.430]  Did they try to just do any negotiation with you or just sue you right out of the box?
[51:00.550 --> 51:02.190]  Well, let me tell you how they did that.
[51:02.410 --> 51:12.990]  Uh, uh, in, on, uh, December, on, on October, in the beginning of October, their e-business manager called me and wanted to discuss that with me.
[51:12.990 --> 51:15.730]  And I said, fine, you can, I'm not going to discuss it over the phone.
[51:15.850 --> 51:17.090]  You want to come to North Carolina?
[51:17.130 --> 51:18.350]  I'll be glad to meet with you.
[51:19.230 --> 51:23.810]  On the 15th of October, he flew to North Carolina and we discussed some things.
[51:23.910 --> 51:26.470]  You know, they wanted to, uh, they wanted me to give him a prize.
[51:26.570 --> 51:29.130]  I said, it's not for sale, but let's talk about some other things.
[51:29.130 --> 51:34.550]  You want a banner, you want a split page, you want, well, all kinds of things.
[51:35.530 --> 51:42.250]  He says, well, I'll go back and talk to my, uh, superiors and let's, let's, uh, let's get back, uh, I'll get back with you later on.
[51:43.050 --> 51:51.790]  He went back and, uh, the, on, uh, December 8th or 7th, he called me and he said, we need to talk again.
[51:51.790 --> 52:08.750]  And, uh, it was a Friday, the December 10th, 1999 that he came in, flew back to North Carolina to meet me and, uh, in the, in my office and he's telling, he came in and says, listen, my superiors says no partnership, no nothing.
[52:08.890 --> 52:09.810]  They just want a price.
[52:10.710 --> 52:18.990]  And for two hours, two hours and 15 minutes, I was going back and forth and say, Hey, it's not the domain name is not for sale.
[52:19.070 --> 52:20.070]  Domain name is not for sale.
[52:20.770 --> 52:26.090]  Well, after two hours, two, two and a half hours, I said, well, you know what?
[52:26.190 --> 52:27.070]  You just want a price.
[52:27.210 --> 52:27.790]  You just want a price.
[52:27.910 --> 52:28.630]  You just want a price.
[52:29.630 --> 52:30.430]  $15 million.
[52:31.150 --> 52:33.810]  Do you understand now that I don't want to sell?
[52:35.090 --> 52:35.910]  That was it.
[52:35.990 --> 52:37.430]  He went out, made a phone call.
[52:37.710 --> 52:39.830]  Five minutes later, their attorneys are calling me.
[52:39.930 --> 52:41.270]  They're filing a lawsuit against me.
[52:41.510 --> 52:45.670]  And are they actually seriously saying that you were holding it over their heads, $15 million?
[52:46.410 --> 52:47.470]  That's what they're saying.
[52:47.550 --> 52:47.810]  Uh-huh.
[52:48.050 --> 52:50.490]  You know, which is, which is, which is, which is wrong.
[52:50.730 --> 52:50.990]  It's not.
[52:51.130 --> 52:51.970]  But that's what they're saying.
[52:52.330 --> 52:53.370]  But listen to that.
[52:53.610 --> 52:59.330]  When I, he was talking outside still on the phone, I go to him and I said, his name is, was Meryl Davis.
[52:59.470 --> 53:00.690]  He's not working for them anymore.
[53:00.890 --> 53:02.270]  I said, Meryl, what's happening?
[53:02.370 --> 53:04.470]  I got a phone call from your attorneys.
[53:04.610 --> 53:05.930]  They're filing a lawsuit against me.
[53:07.110 --> 53:08.610]  And he says, Uzi, I'm sorry.
[53:08.670 --> 53:10.090]  I did not know anything about it.
[53:10.130 --> 53:12.370]  It was not supposed to end up like that.
[53:20.070 --> 53:27.070]  He told me that Meryl Davis already signed his declaration for the complaint on Wednesday, which was two days before he came to see me.
[53:28.330 --> 53:40.270]  So they just came in to entrap me to give them a price because that was another thing, another, it's like another part of the cyber squatting law that I was trying to sell it to them.
[53:40.270 --> 53:42.490]  Well, that's how they define bad faith.
[53:42.630 --> 53:49.490]  If you get a domain and you hold a price and say, I'm not going to use you unless you give me this amount of money, they consider that bad faith.
[53:49.530 --> 53:54.650]  But I think if they came to you asking you for a price, that demonstrates bad faith on their part.
[53:54.910 --> 53:55.310]  Correct.
[53:55.570 --> 53:55.910]  Correct.
[53:55.950 --> 53:58.050]  And I think that's why the judge saw it this way.
[53:58.790 --> 54:03.290]  But, you know, all they did, all the negotiation was to entrap me to give them a price.
[54:05.010 --> 54:06.610]  So the answer is no.
[54:06.730 --> 54:08.790]  They did not try to negotiate with me.
[54:08.830 --> 54:09.690]  They just sued me.
[54:12.790 --> 54:16.670]  Does Datsun, now Nissan, have a website of their own?
[54:17.030 --> 54:17.950]  Yes, they do.
[54:18.150 --> 54:18.790]  Which is?
[54:18.870 --> 54:20.670]  It's NissanDriven.com.
[54:22.030 --> 54:26.670]  And have people been emailing them to complain about this travesty?
[54:26.970 --> 54:29.170]  Well, when you go...
[54:29.170 --> 54:32.350]  Well, some of them email them direct and send me...
[54:32.350 --> 54:33.470]  and you're copying me.
[54:33.830 --> 54:40.250]  But from our site, you can go and send an email to the parties involved.
[54:40.270 --> 54:41.910]  which send it to them and to me.
[54:43.150 --> 54:45.790]  And the majority of the email is coming out of the site.
[54:47.410 --> 54:47.890]  Okay.
[54:48.530 --> 54:48.910]  I see.
[54:50.290 --> 54:50.770]  Unbelievable.
[54:51.190 --> 54:53.910]  So now, what is the timetable?
[54:53.950 --> 54:56.010]  Obviously, you have the trial coming up in October.
[54:56.250 --> 54:57.110]  October 15th.
[54:57.110 --> 54:59.250]  Now, is there anything set to happen between now and then?
[54:59.490 --> 55:00.270]  Well, yes.
[55:00.430 --> 55:10.430]  This second try on summary judgment on dilution is going to happen, which we find it very, very hard to believe that anything will come out of it.
[55:12.690 --> 55:19.590]  Because, you know, there's too many, too many disputed facts.
[55:19.870 --> 55:27.730]  And when there are some disputed facts, it cannot be, you know, judged by, you know, it cannot be ordered by the judge.
[55:28.210 --> 55:33.630]  He's supposed to send it to the juries when there's a lot of disputed facts.
[55:33.630 --> 55:34.230]  Mm-hmm.
[55:35.390 --> 55:39.830]  So, I'm hoping that's the way he'll see it and that we will have a trial.
[55:41.170 --> 55:41.610]  Yeah.
[55:41.810 --> 55:47.150]  I mean, having a trial about this, I think, is a very educational thing.
[55:47.470 --> 55:51.710]  Something that will be beneficial to the American people.
[55:51.910 --> 55:52.330]  The public.
[55:52.450 --> 55:54.430]  Because we'll hear how this whole thing came about in the first place.
[55:54.690 --> 55:55.250]  Of course.
[55:55.510 --> 55:58.590]  But, you know, they are going to try to do everything possible to get you to settle somehow.
[56:00.870 --> 56:02.350]  Well, I'll tell you what.
[56:02.350 --> 56:13.150]  But they are trying, but, you know, they're hardly even covering the defense of...
[00:08.910 --> 00:11.330]  It's important to me to prevail.
[00:12.310 --> 00:21.570]  The fact that we lost on infringement on automotive products, this is something we can deal later on with.
[00:21.770 --> 00:26.410]  But I'd like to prevail on the rest of the stuff and then deal with that.
[00:26.410 --> 00:44.170]  Because it is important, because many, many professionals, when I say professionals, I'm talking about attorneys, you know, the law profession, many of them are looking at this case not as a law-breaking case, but as a law-making case.
[00:45.710 --> 00:48.130]  So it's pretty important for us to prevail.
[00:48.490 --> 00:52.030]  Yeah, I think it's also important for many other people, too, who are following this case.
[00:52.230 --> 00:52.690]  Of course.
[00:52.690 --> 01:00.450]  Now, are you aware of other individuals that are facing similar types of situations with bigger companies and corporations?
[01:00.870 --> 01:02.250]  Well, let's put it this way.
[01:02.410 --> 01:09.990]  One thing that was very, very good for us was the CBS versus the Network Network.
[01:10.150 --> 01:10.910]  Have you heard of that?
[01:11.210 --> 01:11.690]  No.
[01:12.190 --> 01:15.790]  Okay, the Network Network owns TNN.com.
[01:16.550 --> 01:21.210]  And CBS owned the channel TNN on TV.
[01:21.210 --> 01:21.690]  Okay.
[01:23.290 --> 01:25.250]  I think it's Tennessee something network.
[01:25.250 --> 01:26.710]  Well, it was the Nashville Network.
[01:26.850 --> 01:27.910]  Now it's the National Network.
[01:28.330 --> 01:28.790]  Pardon me?
[01:29.250 --> 01:29.570]  TNN.
[01:29.710 --> 01:30.690]  It was the Nashville Network.
[01:30.770 --> 01:31.870]  And now it's the National Network.
[01:32.150 --> 01:32.470]  Okay.
[01:32.650 --> 01:33.870]  I think it's owned by Viacom.
[01:34.330 --> 01:35.870]  Well, it used to own by CBS.
[01:36.150 --> 01:39.510]  And CBS sued...
[01:39.510 --> 01:41.070]  Yeah, CBS is now owned by Viacom.
[01:41.190 --> 01:41.650]  Oh, okay.
[01:41.770 --> 01:41.970]  Okay.
[01:41.970 --> 01:45.570]  So they sued the Network Network.
[01:45.930 --> 01:49.390]  And in this case, it went through just summary judgment.
[01:49.690 --> 02:00.050]  And the judge, which is in the same Ninth Circuit, the same central district of L.A., the judge, their rule that...
[02:00.050 --> 02:08.970]  You know, how they determine trademark infringement is initial interest confusion.
[02:10.070 --> 02:21.450]  And the judge there ruled it, said the fact that people expect to find somebody on the Internet does not constitute initial interest confusion.
[02:22.350 --> 02:23.570]  So that was very good.
[02:23.750 --> 02:27.210]  The network network won that case.
[02:28.630 --> 02:31.750]  Other things is the entrepreneur.
[02:32.230 --> 02:37.070]  You know, entrepreneur media is suing everybody that's using the word from the dictionary.
[02:37.610 --> 02:38.090]  Entrepreneur.
[02:38.250 --> 02:38.650]  Oh, really?
[02:39.030 --> 02:42.870]  You know, they're suing everybody that have the word entrepreneur in their website.
[02:44.510 --> 02:47.310]  It might not be a smart thing to sue entrepreneurs, though.
[02:47.950 --> 02:50.270]  Real entrepreneurs who might put that in their website.
[02:50.270 --> 03:02.370]  Well, they sued one of them that owns Entrepreneurs.com, and from what I understood and what was reported, that after about two weeks when they realized who they are suing, they dropped the lawsuit.
[03:02.710 --> 03:05.730]  But against the little guys, they kept on going.
[03:06.390 --> 03:06.610]  Yeah.
[03:06.770 --> 03:08.830]  Oh, I mean, that's how bullies work, right?
[03:09.050 --> 03:09.550]  Exactly.
[03:10.110 --> 03:10.630]  Exactly.
[03:11.590 --> 03:20.090]  We're speaking with Uzi Nissan, founder and president of the Nissan Computer Corporation, owner of Nissan.com, and victim of a lawsuit.
[03:20.270 --> 03:22.170]  By the motor company, Nissan.
[03:22.450 --> 03:25.890]  Nissan Foreign Car Mobile Repair Service, I think, was one of them.
[03:26.030 --> 03:30.910]  And there were... I guess the entire Nissan auto industry is after you now.
[03:31.750 --> 03:32.110]  Pardon me?
[03:32.170 --> 03:34.330]  No, Nissan Foreign Car was my first business.
[03:34.450 --> 03:34.990]  Oh, that was you.
[03:35.090 --> 03:35.710]  Okay, I'm sorry.
[03:35.830 --> 03:38.350]  It was my first business in 1980, when there were Datsun.
[03:38.470 --> 03:39.930]  They weren't even Nissan then.
[03:40.010 --> 03:40.210]  Okay.
[03:40.330 --> 03:46.670]  So somebody sees that and gets confused and thinks that you were trying to confuse people by thinking you were Nissan Car.
[03:46.790 --> 03:48.170]  Nissan didn't even exist then.
[03:48.170 --> 03:50.570]  They did not exist in North America.
[03:50.570 --> 03:53.270]  They existed in Europe and in Asia.
[03:53.410 --> 03:53.750]  Okay.
[03:53.890 --> 03:56.310]  But in North America, they were known only as Datsun.
[03:56.450 --> 03:57.190]  I see.
[03:57.270 --> 03:58.430]  Until the mid-80s.
[03:59.910 --> 04:00.350]  Wow.
[04:00.570 --> 04:03.190]  Well, it's quite a case and something we're certainly going to be following.
[04:03.330 --> 04:08.490]  In fact, you're going to be appearing at the conference, H2K2, giving a presentation on that and...
[04:08.490 --> 04:09.530]  Yeah, looking forward to that.
[04:09.530 --> 04:14.170]  What can people do as far as how they can show their support or what can they do to help?
[04:14.510 --> 04:17.050]  Well, mainly go to the site.
[04:17.270 --> 04:19.410]  Go to ncchelp.org.
[04:19.810 --> 04:27.170]  Click on the how can you help and just send an email to the parties and send an email to the media and request...
[04:27.170 --> 04:35.450]  You know, insist on the media to cover that and tell Nissan Motors what they think of that.
[04:36.370 --> 04:38.590]  That's the best support we can get at this point.
[04:39.110 --> 04:39.370]  Okay.
[04:39.770 --> 04:42.650]  And has this been a strain on your family in any way?
[04:42.750 --> 04:43.850]  Oh, you know that.
[04:44.050 --> 04:44.250]  Yeah.
[04:44.930 --> 04:45.450]  Tremendous.
[04:45.710 --> 04:46.230]  Tremendous.
[04:46.670 --> 04:51.250]  On my family, on my business, on every aspect of my life.
[04:52.150 --> 04:55.350]  It must have cost a fortune to pursue this.
[04:55.850 --> 04:57.550]  Well, let me tell you...
[04:57.550 --> 05:02.570]  I can tell you that the cost of the defense of this case already topped 2.2 mil.
[05:02.890 --> 05:03.370]  Wow.
[05:05.450 --> 05:12.950]  You know, we're involved in the lawsuit with Ford because of our website, which I won't get into now because it's just a whole other story.
[05:13.090 --> 05:13.910]  I'm familiar with it.
[05:13.990 --> 05:15.770]  Well, basically, you know, we won.
[05:15.930 --> 05:16.990]  We won the case.
[05:17.150 --> 05:24.170]  We should be happy, but they're appealing, so that means we still have to spend money to pursue the case, even though we already won.
[05:25.390 --> 05:27.830]  That's how these big companies do it.
[05:27.830 --> 05:31.450]  That's how they work because no matter what, as long as you fight, you lose.
[05:31.450 --> 05:35.770]  And that's how... they want people to back out of the fight because they don't see any victory here.
[05:36.450 --> 05:42.010]  I think, though, if you do win, you'll be winning a lot more than a financial settlement of any sort.
[05:42.090 --> 05:45.550]  You'll be winning something about freedom of speech, which is what this is really all about.
[05:45.690 --> 05:47.050]  And that's the most important thing.
[05:47.290 --> 05:47.550]  Mm-hmm.
[05:47.930 --> 05:48.250]  All right.
[05:48.290 --> 05:54.890]  Well, you have my admiration for standing up to them, and I sure hope that you stick with it and that others follow your lead.
[05:55.610 --> 05:57.510]  Thank you, and thanks for having me on.
[05:57.690 --> 06:05.890]  Okay, and if you still want to make that pledge, feel free to call 212-209-2950, but you certainly have done enough to support freedom of speech.
[06:05.890 --> 06:12.470]  Okay, well, if I did not do that, I'll email tomorrow and ask for the address to send it.
[06:12.650 --> 06:13.030]  Okay.
[06:13.190 --> 06:13.910]  Is that okay, too?
[06:14.270 --> 06:14.870]  That's fine.
[06:15.050 --> 06:19.910]  Well, actually, if you wanted to count for this show, you have to call before we go off the air.
[06:19.990 --> 06:20.930]  That's just how it works here.
[06:21.090 --> 06:22.650]  Okay, because I don't have...
[06:22.650 --> 06:24.870]  But that's by no means a pressure tactic.
[06:25.170 --> 06:26.830]  Put me on hold for a second.
[06:26.950 --> 06:27.530]  I'll go get a pen.
[06:27.650 --> 06:27.970]  Just a second.
[06:28.070 --> 06:28.350]  Okay.
[06:28.910 --> 06:34.310]  And while he goes to get a pen, let me tell people that our phone number is 212-209-2950.
[06:34.310 --> 06:35.450]  That's our pledge line.
[06:37.070 --> 06:37.830]  And while...
[06:38.830 --> 06:48.750]  I certainly don't like having to ask for money at times like this, but when you think about it, when you think of the importance of having a voice, it's necessary.
[06:48.750 --> 06:53.250]  If you don't do this now, you know, we might not be that voice in the future.
[06:53.630 --> 06:54.830]  That's the important thing.
[06:54.910 --> 06:56.650]  212-209-2950.
[06:56.750 --> 06:57.270]  Uzi, are you back?
[06:57.510 --> 06:58.790]  Yeah, 209 what?
[06:58.970 --> 07:01.770]  2-9-5-0 in area code 212.
[07:02.510 --> 07:02.990]  All right.
[07:03.090 --> 07:03.570]  I got it.
[07:03.710 --> 07:04.030]  All right.
[07:04.130 --> 07:04.810]  Thanks so much.
[07:04.950 --> 07:05.410]  Thank you.
[07:05.610 --> 07:05.930]  All right.
[07:05.990 --> 07:06.870]  And best of luck to you.
[07:06.970 --> 07:09.910]  We'll see you at H2K2, and we'll continue to update people on your case.
[07:10.090 --> 07:10.410]  All right.
[07:10.510 --> 07:10.750]  Thanks.
[07:11.010 --> 07:11.350]  All right.
[07:11.490 --> 07:11.850]  Good night.
[07:12.530 --> 07:26.110]  And that was Uzi Nielsen, Nissan, who spoke to us from North Carolina about the plight that he's facing simply by having the last name that's the same as the last name for our motor company.
[07:26.370 --> 07:28.190]  Unbelievable what people are going through around here.
[07:28.930 --> 07:33.130]  And I think that's a real show of courage where people will actually stand up for that.
[07:34.010 --> 07:35.690]  It really is something to admire.
[07:36.590 --> 07:37.870]  So many people wouldn't do that.
[07:37.950 --> 07:39.570]  So many people would, you know...
[07:39.570 --> 07:45.090]  And I don't blame people for backing down, for, you know, falling into defeat because of this.
[07:45.170 --> 07:48.330]  It's one hell of a fight to fight these corporations.
[07:49.070 --> 07:50.950]  I'm sorry, Ken, Ken, Carol joins us now.
[07:50.990 --> 07:58.850]  The Gimble General Store in Maine got sued by the Gimble's department store a few months before they went out of business.
[07:59.070 --> 08:00.290]  Before the department store went out of business.
[08:00.670 --> 08:03.590]  So they must have known at the time that they were going out of business.
[08:03.610 --> 08:05.110]  Yeah, but it still doesn't stop them from suing.
[08:05.290 --> 08:06.090]  They sued this guy.
[08:06.270 --> 08:07.830]  He had the Gimble General Store.
[08:07.930 --> 08:08.530]  His name was Gimble.
[08:08.530 --> 08:08.870]  Mm-hmm.
[08:09.010 --> 08:10.490]  For decades and decades.
[08:10.750 --> 08:14.510]  And then when they decided to go after him, of course, he couldn't afford it and he went out.
[08:14.630 --> 08:16.410]  See, folks, we have a voice here.
[08:16.590 --> 08:19.130]  We have a way of getting these stories out.
[08:19.250 --> 08:21.630]  But we won't have that way if the radio station does not exist.
[08:21.770 --> 08:24.570]  We've raised $3,045, which is great.
[08:24.690 --> 08:26.890]  And that's a lot of money and that's going to help.
[08:27.030 --> 08:27.530]  It's going to...
[08:27.530 --> 08:32.170]  I mean, $3,000 to a commercial radio station, that's like a lunch or something.
[08:32.490 --> 08:34.270]  It doesn't mean anything.
[08:34.470 --> 08:38.050]  Your words, your phone calls, your letters, they don't mean anything to these people.
[08:38.530 --> 08:39.050]  They don't care.
[08:39.310 --> 08:43.190]  As long as they get those advertising dollars, that's all that ever matters to them.
[08:43.370 --> 08:45.850]  That's why you won't be able to change things over there.
[08:45.930 --> 08:47.090]  You can change things here.
[08:47.150 --> 08:48.030]  You can have input.
[08:48.230 --> 08:49.430]  You can have a say.
[08:49.690 --> 08:51.070]  And you can get your story told.
[08:51.070 --> 08:58.310]  But the price to pay is supporting the radio station, keeping us going, investing in us, becoming our sponsors.
[08:59.210 --> 09:00.770]  212-209-2950.
[09:00.890 --> 09:04.630]  The story you just heard now is a very true story, a very common one.
[09:05.750 --> 09:09.390]  And many stories like that, I'm sure, will be coming our way in the future.
[09:09.610 --> 09:12.070]  But we need a place to broadcast from.
[09:12.170 --> 09:14.570]  We need to be able to bring those stories to you.
[09:14.570 --> 09:17.670]  We have one phone call on the line, 212-209-2950.
[09:17.670 --> 09:19.530]  We have several premium packages.
[09:19.530 --> 09:20.770]  You can pledge any amount.
[09:20.910 --> 09:37.590]  But if you want the Freedom Downtime package for $75, you can get a copy of our two-hour documentary and a 2600 t-shirt, which has a list of all the corporations that have sued us since our existence began in 1984 or tried to sue us or threatened to sue us or all that kind of nonsense,
[09:38.090 --> 09:40.590]  along with some graphical representations of that.
[09:40.930 --> 09:48.450]  And for $125, you get all that plus two tickets to H2K2, which is $100 value right there.
[09:48.630 --> 09:51.070]  So there are many, many levels you can pledge at.
[09:51.150 --> 09:55.510]  The important thing is to make that phone call now, 212-209-2950.
[09:55.710 --> 10:02.270]  Add your voice to the chorus of people calling out for justice, calling out for individual freedom of speech, that kind of thing.
[10:02.390 --> 10:03.910]  212-209-2950.
[10:03.910 --> 10:11.690]  I find it incredible that this guy that we just interviewed, actually, his next phone call is to us to pledge to support this radio station.
[10:11.850 --> 10:14.570]  I mean, that shows you that it matters.
[10:14.570 --> 10:15.790]  It really does make a difference.
[10:15.930 --> 10:20.670]  And I'm sure a lot of people are going to be contacting him who have heard this on the radio station, offering their support.
[10:20.790 --> 10:22.830]  And that is how you build movement.
[10:22.830 --> 10:25.230]  That's how you actually make change.
[10:25.950 --> 10:31.130]  And, you know, change is a dangerous thing for those who have the power.
[10:31.130 --> 10:34.350]  And that's why they want to keep you from making change at any cost.
[10:34.690 --> 10:37.550]  Well, we're here to tell you that it is possible to change things.
[10:37.750 --> 10:39.690]  We've been here for a while.
[10:39.690 --> 10:42.250]  We've had this radio program.
[10:42.450 --> 10:43.570]  We've had the magazine.
[10:43.890 --> 10:44.670]  We've made the film.
[10:44.830 --> 10:47.050]  We are making change in our way.
[10:47.190 --> 10:49.910]  We'll have a conference in July where many ideas will be exchanged.
[10:50.810 --> 10:59.670]  It all comes about from individual people volunteering their time, efforts, skills, just being there, just saying that it matters.
[10:59.670 --> 11:01.490]  That makes all the difference in the world.
[11:01.710 --> 11:05.590]  You know, on the way back from Dayton, we were driving in the 2600 van.
[11:05.750 --> 11:06.610]  I think, Jeff, you saw this.
[11:07.450 --> 11:12.790]  Somebody with a bunch of ham equipment passed us and was taking pictures of the van as he was driving.
[11:12.950 --> 11:17.550]  He was driving with a camera and taking pictures of the van on the interstate in Pennsylvania.
[11:18.010 --> 11:18.830]  It's unbelievable.
[11:18.830 --> 11:22.590]  You can travel all over this country and have sights like that.
[11:22.670 --> 11:28.450]  And then another car behind him with a big Ralph Nader sticker on it, the passenger in that car was doing the same thing.
[11:28.810 --> 11:33.090]  Yeah, it was funny because he'd be behind you, and that's when I noticed that he was taking your picture.
[11:33.090 --> 11:35.670]  And then that wasn't enough.
[11:35.770 --> 11:38.210]  He had to come around on the side and get all angles.
[11:38.210 --> 11:38.910]  Yeah, all angles, right.
[11:39.150 --> 11:40.370]  And you and Bernie S.
[11:40.470 --> 11:45.350]  were behind us, and we had sort of a caravan there through various states.
[11:45.850 --> 11:51.150]  I mean, that's what it's all about, just reaching out and seeing people and taking part in all this.
[11:51.250 --> 11:53.490]  That's why, you know, it'll never get dull.
[11:53.630 --> 11:57.150]  It'll never get boring as long as we all continue to speak up and take part.
[11:57.290 --> 11:58.570]  That's what we call the FBI.
[11:59.170 --> 11:59.890]  What's the FBI?
[12:00.050 --> 12:00.790]  Taking your picture.
[12:00.790 --> 12:03.230]  Oh, you think that was the FBI with the Ralph Nader sticker?
[12:03.450 --> 12:03.510]  I don't know.
[12:03.670 --> 12:04.170]  I don't know.
[12:04.310 --> 12:04.490]  Maybe.
[12:05.730 --> 12:07.010]  212-209-2950.
[12:07.190 --> 12:08.730]  We have six phone calls on the line.
[12:08.830 --> 12:09.330]  That's great.
[12:09.330 --> 12:11.650]  That means people are scrambling there in the tally room.
[12:11.830 --> 12:14.690]  And no offense to the people there.
[12:14.690 --> 12:16.710]  We know that they're working as hard as they can.
[12:16.830 --> 12:21.130]  But feel free to make those phone calls pile in so that they really go nuts.
[12:21.290 --> 12:22.870]  212-209-2950.
[12:23.250 --> 12:24.570]  Mike, how many people were in the tally room?
[12:24.630 --> 12:25.870]  Because you took a visit down there.
[12:26.230 --> 12:29.450]  Yeah, there's a few people there, but they looked really bored.
[12:29.450 --> 12:31.350]  So we should give them something to do.
[12:31.610 --> 12:32.030]  We can't have that, can we?
[12:32.070 --> 12:36.470]  We have to have people that have that wild, crazed look in their eyes when the phone just never stops ringing.
[12:37.310 --> 12:38.590]  212-209-2950.
[12:38.710 --> 12:43.150]  Look, that line's all the way down there, which means we must have had enough calls for it to get down that far.
[12:43.730 --> 12:45.470]  Okay, well, let's keep those calls coming in.
[12:45.590 --> 12:49.870]  This is a good rally that we're having now, and this might bring us up to where it was supposed to be.
[12:50.710 --> 12:51.610]  212-209-2950.
[12:52.350 --> 12:54.890]  Remember, for $75, you get Freedom Downtime and the t-shirt.
[12:54.890 --> 12:58.770]  For $125, Freedom Downtime t-shirt and two tickets to H2K2.
[12:59.670 --> 13:04.870]  Most importantly, for any price that you pledge, you support the radio station and keep us going.
[13:05.030 --> 13:06.430]  Keep this radio station on the air.
[13:06.590 --> 13:18.570]  Most amazing place in the world, I think, because here we are, 50,000 watts in the middle of New York City in the commercial band, and we've existed since 1960 like this with people's support.
[13:18.750 --> 13:25.910]  It just shows you that everything that is told to you about the realities of the broadcast industry, it's all nonsense.
[13:26.430 --> 13:29.410]  People can do things if they set their minds to it.
[13:29.550 --> 13:30.730]  You don't have to worry about arbitrage.
[13:30.870 --> 13:37.910]  You don't have to worry about, you know, commercial advertisers offending them or being too controversial, anything like that.
[13:37.910 --> 13:40.550]  It's basically people radio.
[13:40.810 --> 13:41.890]  That's what it should be all about.
[13:42.050 --> 13:43.850]  The airwaves do belong to the people, after all.
[13:44.830 --> 13:48.050]  BAI, I think, is the only instance where that actually is followed through.
[13:48.370 --> 13:55.250]  According to radio lore, somebody, because we're in the middle of the dial, somebody discovers WBAI every two minutes.
[13:55.270 --> 13:55.790]  Yeah, that's true.
[13:55.870 --> 13:58.530]  They're on their way from Z100 to Hot 97 or whatever.
[13:58.550 --> 13:59.050]  Or whatever.
[13:59.950 --> 14:05.470]  And they don't turn the dial hard enough, and it just sort of stops on us, and sometimes they just get riveted and they never tune away.
[14:05.470 --> 14:06.370]  It's exactly it.
[14:06.390 --> 14:08.210]  Every couple of minutes, someone discovers us.
[14:08.310 --> 14:15.930]  Of course, the other part of that happens, too, where people are trying to find us, and they wind up on the other station by accident, and they start screaming uncontrollably and running out of the room.
[14:16.850 --> 14:19.590]  The radio dial can be a dangerous thing, and we're here to prove that.
[14:19.710 --> 14:21.470]  212-209-2950.
[14:21.710 --> 14:24.390]  That would not be the case if we were on one of the ends of the dial.
[14:24.690 --> 14:25.170]  That's true.
[14:25.330 --> 14:25.710]  That's true.
[14:26.070 --> 14:26.750]  Yeah, if...
[14:26.750 --> 14:28.210]  And that's why it's worth so much money.
[14:28.210 --> 14:36.470]  The non-commercial ghetto that they throw all non-commercial stations in below 92, you notice how all those stations are clustered right next to each other.
[14:36.690 --> 14:37.710]  You have...
[14:37.710 --> 14:38.670]  What do you have?
[14:39.430 --> 14:43.730]  Basically, 90.3 right next to 90.1, right next to 89.9.
[14:44.510 --> 14:53.830]  In the commercial band, however, you have 92.3, and the next station can't be until 93.1, I think.
[14:54.030 --> 14:56.690]  It has to be this huge space between them to protect them.
[14:56.870 --> 15:11.950]  Now, how come the non-commercial stations don't get this protection, but the big commercial ones do, and if you start a one-watt micro-broadcasting station, you know, a couple of frequencies away from a commercial one, they're going to scream bloody murder and say that you're interfering with their signal,
[15:11.990 --> 15:18.590]  but the same just somehow doesn't hold true if you're a college radio station or someone independent, you know?
[15:20.390 --> 15:33.050]  Apparently, the protection is different for commercial broadcasters than for non-commercial, and that's just a crying shame because radio is something... there's enough space for a lot of different voices, and unfortunately, you hear a lot of the same voices.
[15:33.230 --> 15:38.230]  You hear Clear Channel, which owns well over a thousand radio stations in this country now, well over a thousand.
[15:38.430 --> 15:39.330]  Think of that power.
[15:39.670 --> 15:41.910]  Think of what they can do with that.
[15:42.610 --> 15:50.370]  And what they've chosen to do is simply make a lot of money and squash out the competition and opposition.
[15:51.110 --> 16:00.690]  They own billboards, they own concert promoting companies, and basically they promote who they want to promote.
[16:00.850 --> 16:02.690]  They play music of who they want to play.
[16:02.890 --> 16:06.670]  Artists are made and broken by Clear Channel because they have that kind of power.
[16:07.170 --> 16:08.270]  And that's what will happen.
[16:08.370 --> 16:11.590]  That's what will happen when you have so much in the hands of so few.
[16:11.830 --> 16:18.050]  212-209-2950 become that group of people that control our destiny.
[16:18.410 --> 16:20.090]  212-209-2950.
[16:21.330 --> 16:24.990]  The tally still shows 3,045, but I know we've gotten a bunch of calls.
[16:25.130 --> 16:30.270]  But let's see another flurry, and then we'll play some more Freedom Downtime, which I know people want to hear.
[16:31.490 --> 16:33.870]  We have some thank yous to hand out.
[16:34.390 --> 16:37.710]  Thanks to Alan from New Jersey, Clifton, New Jersey.
[16:38.750 --> 16:40.450]  Matthew from Albany, New York.
[16:40.830 --> 16:42.050]  Keith from Indiana.
[16:42.210 --> 16:42.950]  Muncie, Indiana.
[16:43.130 --> 16:43.930]  We're getting out pretty far.
[16:43.950 --> 16:44.270]  Wow.
[16:44.450 --> 16:44.970]  Muncie, Indiana.
[16:45.550 --> 16:46.570]  Here's one even further.
[16:46.770 --> 16:48.710]  Michael from Montreal, Canada.
[16:49.050 --> 16:50.690]  Actually, I think Montreal's closer than Muncie, Indiana.
[16:50.830 --> 16:51.750]  I'm not sure about that, though.
[16:52.310 --> 16:53.570]  They could be...
[16:53.570 --> 16:54.670]  Yes, it is.
[16:54.670 --> 16:54.930]  Did it?
[16:55.150 --> 16:55.710]  Okay, it's closer.
[16:55.910 --> 16:56.290]  Oh, well.
[16:56.590 --> 16:58.470]  And our very own Neon Samurai.
[16:58.850 --> 16:59.650]  Neon Samurai.
[16:59.650 --> 17:00.130]  All right.
[17:00.270 --> 17:02.450]  Thanks so much for calling in from out there on Long Island.
[17:03.850 --> 17:04.230]  Wow.
[17:04.670 --> 17:06.070]  It's really something.
[17:06.310 --> 17:16.330]  We're on the air until... Well, I guess, Ken, it's up to you, because Nuff Said comes on at 10, and we're on until 10, but you're on until 12, so we can hang around as long as you want us to.
[17:16.430 --> 17:16.810]  Absolutely.
[17:17.090 --> 17:17.790]  Yeah, stick around.
[17:18.130 --> 17:19.210]  Tell us something about your show.
[17:19.450 --> 17:20.710]  Tell us something about our show.
[17:20.870 --> 17:23.530]  We've been... It's Nuff Said.
[17:23.530 --> 17:25.530]  We're on usually from 10 p.m.
[17:25.590 --> 17:26.430]  to 11 p.m.
[17:26.590 --> 17:40.210]  on Tuesdays, so we're coming into WBAI's office while these guys are coming out of the studio, so I've gotten to know them as people pretty well, and that's one of the highlights of coming in here nowadays.
[17:40.470 --> 17:43.510]  Even during the coup, you've still got to hang out and chat.
[17:43.650 --> 17:52.470]  During the coup, people were, you know, muttering in corners and trying to, you know, figure out ways of showing their opposition without, you know, getting thrown out the barricaded doors.
[17:52.470 --> 18:07.570]  And for those of you who don't know, we had a situation here at the radio station for pretty much all of 2001 where unfriendly people took over and were kicking people off the air one by one, and the whole radio network of Pacifica was moving towards corporatization,
[18:07.710 --> 18:09.410]  and it was a really bad scene.
[18:09.410 --> 18:17.690]  But, you know, it was also a good scene in some ways because I learned a lot about people who have the guts to really stand up when things are happening right in their face.
[18:17.690 --> 18:21.070]  It's one thing to say that you support freedom of speech.
[18:21.230 --> 18:24.970]  It's another thing to actually support it and put yourself on the line.
[18:25.150 --> 18:31.590]  And there are a number of people here who, I think, just go well beyond the boundaries of courageousness.
[18:32.290 --> 18:35.750]  And I'm pleased and honored to be at the same place as them.
[18:35.790 --> 18:41.430]  And the flip side of that, of course, is that there were a bunch of people who did the exact opposite and simply caved in.
[18:41.690 --> 18:51.410]  And, you know, a number of them have, you know, remained here to their credit, I think, because it does take some guts to come back even when you've been proven wrong.
[18:51.710 --> 18:59.110]  And also, I think the people who are running the place now, to their credit, there has not been a purge or anything like that.
[18:59.230 --> 19:04.670]  There are also protests in front of the station of many listeners protesting the situation.
[19:04.810 --> 19:08.250]  And I got to meet and chat with a lot of BAI listeners that way.
[19:08.250 --> 19:19.270]  Any good to come out of all that, that was the good, because, yeah, it was great meeting listeners, actually seeing people, you know, that maybe you talked to on the phone, or maybe you read letters, or maybe you just knew they were out there.
[19:19.670 --> 19:21.350]  These people cared enough to come.
[19:21.450 --> 19:24.210]  I remember that first demonstration, it was in January.
[19:24.210 --> 19:26.370]  It was bitter cold outside on 120 Wall Street.
[19:26.910 --> 19:31.890]  And people just were gathered demonstrating, trying to get their radio station back.
[19:31.990 --> 19:32.990]  That's how much it matters.
[19:38.250 --> 19:45.890]  One listener, well, I should have said there's two listeners who I was talking to after a show, one of whom was really into comics.
[19:46.070 --> 19:47.530]  And we were talking about comics.
[19:47.610 --> 19:52.370]  And another listener said that, you know, I really feel like I missed something.
[19:52.910 --> 19:57.570]  By not having read comics, you know, when I had a chance to read some of these great old comics that you talk about.
[19:58.250 --> 20:00.130]  And she feels she's missing something.
[20:00.270 --> 20:06.230]  I don't know what I was saying that caused somebody to wish they knew more about what we were talking about.
[20:06.490 --> 20:09.070]  But somehow that happened.
[20:09.430 --> 20:14.330]  And I suppose just talking about the creative process with creative people intrigues folks.
[20:14.530 --> 20:24.570]  And the fact that it's comics, and you find out, oh, they're just as creative as every other creative person you hear on the radio, makes people realize that they should be, have been paying attention to comics all along.
[20:25.330 --> 20:26.770]  And now they have a chance.
[20:27.570 --> 20:28.070]  That's right.
[20:28.510 --> 20:29.530]  We've got Bernie S.
[20:29.730 --> 20:30.390]  joining us.
[20:30.550 --> 20:31.030]  Hang on.
[20:31.450 --> 20:33.210]  I just called him now live on the air.
[20:33.950 --> 20:36.810]  And let's see if we can bring him up on the switchboard here.
[20:36.910 --> 20:37.490]  Bernie, are you there?
[20:38.890 --> 20:39.250]  Bernie?
[20:39.790 --> 20:40.550]  Yes, I'm here.
[20:40.750 --> 20:41.330]  Okay, you are.
[20:41.990 --> 20:42.730]  Okay, yeah.
[20:43.350 --> 20:46.230]  You have a Sprint phone, so it takes like 50 rings for it to answer.
[20:47.450 --> 20:49.590]  But here he is, joining us from Philadelphia.
[20:50.510 --> 20:54.810]  And we've been on since 7 this evening, and it's good that you can join us now.
[20:56.230 --> 20:57.430]  Well, thanks for including me.
[20:58.430 --> 21:03.290]  You joined us at the Ham Fest this year, as every year, actually.
[21:03.810 --> 21:04.930]  Quite the grueling weekend.
[21:05.230 --> 21:17.050]  Well, yeah, because we have to drive all the way out to Dayton, and of course get up early in the morning, because if you're a merchant there, you have to get your vehicle in, I think, before 7 or something crazy like that.
[21:17.670 --> 21:19.330]  The time really goes fast, though.
[21:19.450 --> 21:34.110]  When you're standing out there, and people just walking by, people of all different kinds, shapes, sizes, just walking by and looking at who you are and what you're offering, and when you go around and look at other people and what they're offering, it flies.
[21:34.110 --> 21:34.910]  It really does.
[21:35.150 --> 21:36.490]  It's the most amazing experience.
[21:37.250 --> 21:44.490]  Did you describe to listeners, having just gotten on the show just now, describe to listeners what the Dayton Ham venture was all about?
[21:44.670 --> 21:44.990]  Yes.
[21:45.070 --> 21:47.810]  Yeah, we've been talking about that off and on throughout the time slot.
[21:48.650 --> 21:58.270]  Now, you found something that really is an unbelievable find when you were rummaging around, seeing some of the merchants, I think, on the first day.
[21:58.910 --> 22:02.250]  You want to describe that scary piece of technology that somebody was selling?
[22:02.510 --> 22:03.670]  Yeah, this is Friday morning.
[22:06.050 --> 22:13.030]  Every year I go to the Dayton Ham venture, and I see some things that have...
[22:13.030 --> 22:17.830]  Well, I should backtrack and say that this is a gigantic flea market.
[22:17.990 --> 22:21.450]  There's about 30,000 radio hobbyists who show up to this thing.
[22:22.150 --> 22:31.030]  A good deal of them work in radio in some way, whether it's for a radio station or whether they work with a two-way radio.
[22:31.390 --> 22:34.030]  Maybe they work for a government agency that uses two-way radio.
[22:34.130 --> 22:39.030]  The government agencies use a lot of two-way radio stuff, police, fire, federal, that sort of thing.
[22:39.030 --> 22:49.150]  And some of the equipment ends up here at Dayton and other handpests is surplused from government agencies and companies and so forth.
[22:49.310 --> 22:55.630]  And sometimes something falls through the cracks and ends up being surplus that shouldn't be surplus.
[22:55.970 --> 23:04.490]  And every year I usually find one or two things that just never should have made it to the general public.
[23:05.450 --> 23:12.070]  I think a couple of years ago you were there and we found a polygraph machine that had belonged to the Secret Service and other things.
[23:12.130 --> 23:15.010]  That's not so sensitive, but it's not the kind of thing you expect to find.
[23:15.230 --> 23:17.370]  I believe I have that polygraph machine now, don't I?
[23:18.630 --> 23:20.590]  How many people have you hooked up to that thing by now?
[23:21.170 --> 23:21.890]  We'll talk later.
[23:24.050 --> 23:25.390]  Your results are in, by the way.
[23:25.930 --> 23:26.450]  Oh, great.
[23:28.750 --> 23:34.590]  The guy who invented that machine way back was in the same way that created Wonder Woman back in 41.
[23:35.070 --> 23:35.710]  That's true.
[23:35.710 --> 23:36.270]  I read that.
[23:36.510 --> 23:37.170]  Oh, my God.
[23:38.270 --> 23:38.670]  Unreal.
[23:39.010 --> 23:40.010]  Okay, so Bernie, tell us more.
[23:40.790 --> 23:44.790]  Well, Friday morning, which is the first day that a lot of vendors set up.
[23:45.010 --> 23:50.730]  By vendors, I mean just like people like you and me that have stuff they want in a basement they want to get rid of, whatever.
[23:50.730 --> 24:03.630]  Well, there was this one guy, one table I went to, and there was a nice Samsonite suitcase, you know, the kind with the wheels and a pop-up handle you can roll through the airport.
[24:03.970 --> 24:06.210]  And it was open in half.
[24:06.870 --> 24:09.130]  It was opened up like a clam on a half shell.
[24:09.430 --> 24:12.730]  And there was this equipment inside it.
[24:12.790 --> 24:18.570]  And I'm looking at it, and it took me a few moments to realize what I was looking at.
[24:18.570 --> 24:24.530]  But what was inside it was several black boxes labeled Watkins-Johnson.
[24:25.110 --> 24:48.170]  And having fooled around with radio for quite a few years, I know that, and probably some of our listeners are aware, that Watkins-Johnson's primary business is manufacturing electronic surveillance equipment, primarily surveillance receivers, very high-end radios designed for government agencies to monitor the airwaves.
[24:49.710 --> 24:54.750]  Airwaves that not normal people don't monitor, like AM, FM, broadcast bands.
[24:54.830 --> 24:56.110]  Not that kind of monitoring the airwaves.
[24:56.190 --> 25:00.350]  We're talking about signals intelligence, communications intelligence, that sort of thing.
[25:01.470 --> 25:07.550]  There were four or five black boxes inside this thing, all labeled Watkins-Johnson, late model, 9,000 series stuff.
[25:07.550 --> 25:11.890]  And one of the things was a digital audio recorder in there.
[25:11.970 --> 25:13.170]  All this stuff was strapped together.
[25:15.090 --> 25:20.970]  And there was a little sticker on it saying, not for sale, only to U.S.
[25:21.030 --> 25:21.330]  citizens.
[25:21.910 --> 25:25.650]  And there's another sticker on it that said, GSM 900.
[25:26.310 --> 25:29.170]  And I asked the guy, what is this thing?
[25:29.250 --> 25:31.090]  He said, it's a GSM monitoring system.
[25:31.530 --> 25:32.990]  I said, for 900?
[25:32.990 --> 25:33.930]  He said, yeah.
[25:33.930 --> 25:37.050]  I said, oh, so I realized, you know, in the U.S.
[25:37.070 --> 25:40.910]  we only use a GSM in the 1900 megahertz band.
[25:41.210 --> 25:57.030]  This was a surveillance platform for some government agency, possibly an intelligence agency, for monitoring European or some other countries' 900 megahertz GSM telephones.
[25:57.030 --> 26:05.810]  There was even a very unusual-looking, expensive earphone in there connected to the digital audio tape recorder.
[26:06.330 --> 26:09.310]  And I started to ask this guy some more questions about it.
[26:10.210 --> 26:17.550]  And a gentleman, sort of a spooky-looking guy standing behind me, handed a wad of cash to the guy.
[26:18.070 --> 26:20.290]  It had a $1,200 price tag on it.
[26:21.890 --> 26:26.130]  And, without a word, closed up the suitcase and wheeled it away.
[26:26.450 --> 26:29.910]  And I'm standing there with my jaw open, like, I don't believe I just missed it.
[26:31.710 --> 26:32.330]  Oh, wow.
[26:32.330 --> 26:35.370]  Because I brought money with me for things like that.
[26:35.390 --> 26:37.570]  But I was just so stunned looking at this thing.
[26:37.570 --> 26:41.790]  And I had only looked at it for 10 or 15 seconds before it was snapped up from under me.
[26:43.130 --> 26:44.990]  But what a lost opportunity.
[26:45.250 --> 26:46.410]  This is the kind of stuff...
[26:46.410 --> 26:48.610]  I did some searching on the Internet since then.
[26:48.970 --> 27:02.930]  And I found a couple of other surveillance platforms that are made by companies like Applied Signals Intelligence and so forth for monitoring TDMA, digital amps.
[27:03.430 --> 27:05.730]  I think I found one GSM monitoring system.
[27:05.730 --> 27:14.370]  But all of those were big rack-mount systems for locating in some building where they do a lot of other monitoring.
[27:14.590 --> 27:16.850]  This was a covert platform for this.
[27:16.950 --> 27:24.910]  This was something that somebody could just sort of walk, you know, take through an airport and put in a hotel room and set up and monitor.
[27:25.070 --> 27:30.230]  And this isn't the kind of thing that would have been developed by Watkins Johnson for civilians.
[27:30.230 --> 27:31.610]  They don't make equipment for civilians.
[27:32.130 --> 27:34.670]  They make stuff for government agencies.
[27:34.670 --> 27:41.690]  And the only government agency that's going to want to do this kind of stuff is either intelligence agency or federal law enforcement, possibly FBI.
[27:41.890 --> 27:46.790]  But my guess it was for, you know, who knows, NSA or some other intelligence agency.
[27:47.210 --> 27:50.230]  And sometimes you see things like this at Dayton.
[27:50.310 --> 27:50.910]  It's amazing.
[27:51.270 --> 27:53.170]  But some stuff falls through the cracks.
[27:53.370 --> 27:53.570]  Wow.
[27:53.730 --> 27:54.730]  That's unbelievable.
[27:55.750 --> 27:56.770]  So we missed that.
[27:56.910 --> 27:58.090]  So I think about it.
[27:58.150 --> 28:01.790]  I've kicked myself about 2,000 times since Friday morning.
[28:03.090 --> 28:04.650]  I kicked you a couple of times, too.
[28:05.050 --> 28:05.930]  Yeah, I appreciate that.
[28:06.250 --> 28:08.130]  I needed some balancing out on the other cheek.
[28:09.350 --> 28:11.670]  But you see things like this at Dayton sometimes.
[28:11.850 --> 28:22.850]  And according to a friend of mine who used to sell a lot of equipment to federal agents, law enforcement agencies, he says that the place really is crawling with feds in plainclothes, looking for things like this.
[28:22.850 --> 28:35.230]  And it would not surprise me if this guy who took this without saying a word and walked away nonchalantly was taking it out of circulation.
[28:35.690 --> 28:36.330]  Most likely.
[28:37.350 --> 28:42.910]  And it occurred to me, you know, I played this over my mind over and over and over again, thinking, well, if I've done this, whatever.
[28:43.270 --> 28:46.510]  And one of the scenarios is, well, okay, I buy the thing.
[28:46.670 --> 28:48.090]  The guy's standing behind me.
[28:48.170 --> 28:48.850]  He's looking at me.
[28:48.850 --> 28:52.030]  I wheel it back to the 2600 van.
[28:54.650 --> 28:58.730]  And they put two and two together and jumped to all kinds of crazy conclusions.
[28:58.970 --> 29:02.070]  I doubt we would have made it onto the interstate back home if that had happened.
[29:02.470 --> 29:03.930]  Well, you might have had to replace a window.
[29:03.930 --> 29:04.430]  I don't know.
[29:04.570 --> 29:04.730]  Yeah.
[29:05.230 --> 29:08.550]  But anyhow, that was an interesting experience.
[29:08.730 --> 29:12.930]  And every year you see something that just boggles the mind.
[29:13.030 --> 29:17.090]  Well, I have a feeling a lot more hackers are going to be going to Dayton after hearing that little story.
[29:18.690 --> 29:20.010]  So it's something.
[29:20.090 --> 29:23.610]  This goes to show that there are interesting things out there.
[29:23.670 --> 29:25.210]  You just have to keep your eyes open for them.
[29:25.950 --> 29:27.550]  Bernie, we need to get some phone calls here.
[29:27.590 --> 29:30.090]  So maybe you can help get people to call in.
[29:30.190 --> 29:32.550]  Because we're stuck at $3,045 here.
[29:32.630 --> 29:34.250]  And we need to get a lot more.
[29:34.250 --> 29:34.570]  Is that all?
[29:34.610 --> 29:35.190]  We need to get up there.
[29:35.210 --> 29:35.890]  What's the goal tonight?
[29:36.350 --> 29:37.790]  Well, the goal is higher than that.
[29:38.030 --> 29:39.170]  I don't have the goal in front of me.
[29:39.250 --> 29:39.910]  But there is a goal.
[29:40.050 --> 29:40.630]  And it's not that.
[29:40.770 --> 29:41.050]  It's higher.
[29:47.090 --> 30:02.850]  Well, for that reason alone, just to keep the stories like this coming and to keep stories like what we heard from Uzi Nissan and films like Freedom Downtime, to keep the spirit where that kind of thing is produced, to keep that flowing.
[30:02.850 --> 30:06.750]  I see a lot of emails that come in, Emanuel, from off-the-hook listeners.
[30:07.390 --> 30:11.570]  I guess they have forwarded to me and other people that are involved with 2600.
[30:11.930 --> 30:15.130]  And it's amazing how many people listen to this show.
[30:15.450 --> 30:20.470]  And I can say almost universally the comments are, this show is just fantastic.
[30:20.470 --> 30:23.690]  There is nothing else like this on the radio anywhere.
[30:24.570 --> 30:25.950]  And they don't miss a show.
[30:26.030 --> 30:29.350]  And if they do miss a show, they have the archives they can play back.
[30:29.470 --> 30:29.870]  Yes.
[30:29.950 --> 30:31.630]  And it's just an incredible resource.
[30:31.630 --> 30:39.910]  And I can't think of any other radio show that would get such universal praise as this one.
[30:40.030 --> 31:00.210]  And it's just such a diverse amount of information for people who are interested in technology, people's rights pertaining to the use of technology, dangers of upcoming legislation, regulating people's use of technology, which we all use.
[31:00.210 --> 31:05.650]  And there simply is another resource on the air that informs people about this.
[31:05.930 --> 31:07.650]  212-209-2950.
[31:07.650 --> 31:15.230]  And a lot of what you say is in no small part due to the people out there who spend time encoding the show and streaming the show.
[31:15.510 --> 31:19.750]  For those people who are out there listening on the Internet, it's their efforts that make that possible.
[31:19.750 --> 31:29.370]  And every week they get together and selflessly devote time to this and make a really big difference to a lot of people.
[31:29.370 --> 31:32.950]  So thanks to all the people who are involved in that.
[31:33.570 --> 31:35.430]  Off the Hook is more than just a radio show.
[31:35.550 --> 31:42.170]  It's a lot of people getting together and donating their time and expertise and efforts and making it all happen.
[31:42.170 --> 31:51.230]  And it's been like that since the beginning, back in 1988, when we first had our very first program, which you can hear on the Internet, 212-209-2950.
[31:51.230 --> 31:53.070]  We have a couple of different pledge levels.
[31:53.630 --> 32:01.430]  $75, you'll get a copy of our documentary, Freedom Downtime, and the 2600 lawsuit shirt, which I know you're familiar with, Bernie.
[32:02.070 --> 32:02.970]  The 2600 what?
[32:03.150 --> 32:05.050]  The corporate lawsuit shirt.
[32:05.410 --> 32:05.950]  Oh, yes.
[32:06.090 --> 32:06.510]  Great, yes.
[32:06.650 --> 32:10.270]  My print PCS phone dropped out right when you were starting a date of lawsuit.
[32:10.450 --> 32:10.970]  Of course.
[32:11.590 --> 32:12.710]  It's trained to do that.
[32:12.710 --> 32:26.630]  You know, you don't really appreciate all the hassling the 2600 and crew have experienced simply trying to inform people about things.
[32:26.890 --> 32:34.510]  And until you see the shirt, and then it dawns on you, this is, you know, this is a way of life.
[32:34.670 --> 32:35.510]  This is a mission.
[32:36.930 --> 32:38.410]  We're in a mission from God.
[32:39.910 --> 32:46.050]  Sometimes we probably feel like, you know, we're the proverbial David against Goliath.
[32:46.210 --> 32:55.670]  And it's really amazing that the 2600 has not been trounced more often by the powers that be.
[32:55.750 --> 32:59.290]  Because these are powers that are, you know, just monumental powers.
[32:59.410 --> 32:59.830]  That's true.
[33:00.390 --> 33:01.710]  Compared to just a few people.
[33:01.710 --> 33:06.410]  But it just shows that if you fight, you can win things.
[33:06.490 --> 33:08.090]  Just like this Ford case.
[33:08.170 --> 33:12.070]  In fact, while you were at Dayton, you actually were on the phone on a conference call.
[33:12.170 --> 33:19.410]  Did you have to explain how you had to go through these hoops just to speak to, have this conference call with lawyers and so forth over a cell phone?
[33:19.490 --> 33:22.410]  Yeah, we had to take care of that.
[33:22.490 --> 33:26.590]  But actually, it's a sensitive thing.
[33:26.590 --> 33:33.710]  I mean, yeah, we were in talks with various other attorneys and things like that, which basically is all I can say on the matter at this point in time.
[33:34.130 --> 33:37.350]  And we're going to continue to, you know, to pursue all of that.
[33:39.050 --> 33:40.430]  But it's hell.
[33:40.610 --> 33:41.190]  It really is.
[33:41.870 --> 33:50.230]  Having to constantly fight for the right just to say something, just to be a part of the Internet community.
[33:50.230 --> 33:58.090]  As we can see, you know, people are constantly being challenged and having to, you know, spend their life savings just to exist.
[33:59.430 --> 34:04.110]  And as long as we have this place, as long as this place exists, their stories can be told.
[34:04.150 --> 34:07.810]  And that's what I think is the most important reason to support this place.
[34:07.830 --> 34:18.630]  Not just for off the hook, but for all the radio shows on this station that bring the voice of people who ordinarily would have no voice at all.
[34:18.630 --> 34:20.210]  That's why we need to get those phones lit up.
[34:20.330 --> 34:22.390]  212-209-2950.
[34:22.570 --> 34:24.150]  There are zero calls on the line right now.
[34:24.270 --> 34:29.090]  We're at $3,325, which is okay, but we can do a lot better.
[34:29.850 --> 34:31.490]  212-209-2950.
[34:31.970 --> 34:34.110]  We have some additional people to thank.
[34:34.590 --> 34:38.290]  There is Stephen from Place...
[34:39.970 --> 34:41.830]  I hope that doesn't say what I think it says.
[34:42.070 --> 34:43.050]  Anyway, California.
[34:43.690 --> 34:47.510]  Bruce from Brooklyn, New York, and Gina from New York, New York.
[34:47.510 --> 34:48.030]  Okay.
[34:48.250 --> 34:49.610]  Thanks so much for those calls.
[34:49.750 --> 34:50.970]  And please keep those calls coming in.
[34:51.050 --> 34:53.050]  212-209-2950.
[34:53.310 --> 35:04.950]  And Bernie, just to demonstrate to the folks, rather as blatant a way as we possibly can, we're going to play part of your story now.
[35:05.230 --> 35:18.150]  As many of our listeners know, you went through real hell a few years ago when you were targeted by the authorities just for doing what you do and explaining how technology works.
[35:18.330 --> 35:22.630]  And I think this is an excerpt from the film, which is one of the premiums that we're offering tonight.
[35:23.230 --> 35:38.710]  It demonstrates really well how any one of us can suddenly be targeted and victimized by the authorities and forced to really ask a lot of hard questions.
[35:38.890 --> 35:43.710]  And I think this place being here made a real difference as far as that goes.
[35:44.090 --> 35:53.810]  Oh, I mean, I think I probably would have lost my will to get through that entire year-and-a-half ordeal had it not been for this program.
[35:53.810 --> 36:00.590]  And fortunately, I was occasionally able to get on this show from prison.
[36:00.590 --> 36:08.170]  And I went through this tour through five different maximum security prisons back in 95 and 96 during my ordeal.
[36:08.410 --> 36:19.430]  And I've got to say, Emmanuel, being on Off the Hook and talking to people about this was something that kept my sanity intact.
[36:19.430 --> 36:21.990]  Well, I don't think it's ever been completely intact.
[36:22.150 --> 36:24.950]  But in any case, it really kept me going.
[36:24.970 --> 36:34.410]  And I was amazed the number of people who took an interest in my case, which briefly, you know, locked up for about a year-and-a-half.
[36:34.550 --> 36:48.050]  And the government never alleged that I stole anything from anyone or attempted to commit any kind of fraud just for possession of technology, which had been recently outlawed just prior to my arrest.
[36:49.210 --> 36:55.230]  So you can play this thing, and I'll probably just turn off my radio for now.
[36:55.630 --> 37:03.190]  Yeah, well, this might not be pleasant memories for you, but they certainly are things that we need to never forget.
[37:03.490 --> 37:09.430]  And it's in that spirit that I ask people to listen to this part of the film, which tells Bernie's story.
[37:09.610 --> 37:18.870]  And at the same time, please show your support for the radio station that makes such things possible, 212-209-2950.
[37:18.870 --> 37:23.230]  I hope when we return that quite a few phone calls will have come in.
[37:24.210 --> 37:25.250]  The Bernie S.
[37:25.370 --> 37:29.750]  case, as far as I'm concerned, got blown out of proportion by a lot of things.
[37:29.990 --> 37:32.250]  It got blown out of proportion by the prosecution.
[37:32.310 --> 37:42.230]  Who knew what exactly he had done, and their representation of it was almost to make him look like the guy who blew up the Murrow Federal Building.
[37:42.450 --> 37:46.530]  To do that was an incredible leap, but they managed to pass that off.
[37:46.830 --> 37:48.690]  They made Bernie S.
[37:48.930 --> 37:50.150]  look like an absolute terrorist.
[37:50.150 --> 38:11.270]  The new statute that my attorney had never heard of, and neither had I, that, in fact, it wasn't even in the law books yet, it makes it a federal felony to possess hardware or software for the modification of telecommunications instruments for the unauthorized access to telecommunications services.
[38:11.490 --> 38:18.290]  It wasn't accused or alleged to have done anything with software or ever cloned a cellular phone or anything of that nature.
[38:18.290 --> 38:24.470]  Just the mere possession of these things now constituted a federal felony, according to this new statute.
[38:24.790 --> 38:29.530]  The judge ordered me held without bail, based on the fact that books...
[38:29.530 --> 38:36.470]  In fact, I had... I think I had two books in my home on how fireworks, explosives are made.
[38:36.590 --> 38:37.630]  That stuff is fascinating.
[38:37.770 --> 38:40.130]  I had about 2,000 books in my personal library.
[38:40.390 --> 38:44.330]  What little media attention the case got made Bernie look like a dangerous maniac.
[38:44.330 --> 38:46.970]  But he had never stolen anything, not even a phone call.
[38:47.190 --> 38:50.710]  Everything that used to make him look like a terrorist was something he had legitimately obtained.
[38:50.930 --> 38:54.250]  But when the Secret Service wants you in prison, nobody asks him why.
[38:54.530 --> 38:55.510]  Not even a judge.
[38:55.510 --> 39:07.550]  Your Honor, when we initially searched Mr. Cummings' house, federal agents discovered a substance they believed to be C4 plastic explosives.
[39:09.350 --> 39:18.030]  And while upon later analysis it turned up not to be C4, the fact that it might have been concerned us greatly.
[39:18.330 --> 39:22.790]  And based on that, we would recommend for a stronger sentence.
[39:23.270 --> 39:25.730]  And the judge didn't even blink at that sort of a thing.
[39:25.990 --> 39:29.170]  Then the prosecutor made a startling revelation to Bernie's lawyer.
[39:29.450 --> 39:34.270]  She had told him she was under a lot of pressure to prosecute this case by the Secret Service.
[39:35.990 --> 39:46.870]  And that, in fact, the real reason, and that's a quote, the real reason, end quote, Ed is in jail, was not because of crystals or software or anything like that.
[39:46.870 --> 39:50.230]  It was because of other things that they found in my house.
[39:53.110 --> 39:57.770]  Namely, surveillance photographs of undercover super service agents.
[39:58.230 --> 40:00.870]  So I made these photos available at the 2600 meeting.
[40:01.530 --> 40:12.230]  And it apparently was a coincidence, because I didn't call them, but the local Fox television affiliate, Fox 29 in Philadelphia, their news division, showed up at the meeting.
[40:12.390 --> 40:14.870]  Most are between their mid-teens to late 20s.
[40:15.010 --> 40:18.810]  They gather every Friday night at 30th Street Station for all to see.
[40:18.990 --> 40:22.410]  It's called the 2600 meeting, named after a telephone frequency.
[40:22.770 --> 40:26.790]  And meetings like these are advertised in a high-tech magazine you can buy at a bookstore.
[40:27.170 --> 40:30.410]  Some hackers call themselves fighters for the freedom of information.
[40:30.410 --> 40:31.190]  The U.S.
[40:31.270 --> 40:33.030]  Secret Service monitors some hackers.
[40:33.290 --> 40:35.790]  But hackers say it should be the other way around.
[40:36.090 --> 40:38.870]  And in this photograph here, the Secret Service agent is picking his nose.
[40:40.410 --> 40:42.070]  Secret Service didn't find a humerus.
[40:42.830 --> 40:49.770]  Not only did they have some of their agent's coverage blown, but they didn't picking their noses on a major market television news station.
[40:51.090 --> 40:52.670]  So we all thought that was amusing.
[40:54.190 --> 40:59.450]  Until I was in federal prison, and I found out that that was the real reason I was locked up, was because of that.
[41:00.950 --> 41:05.750]  For a year and a half, Bernie was bounced around maximum security prisons throughout Pennsylvania.
[41:06.970 --> 41:27.130]  I think they got tired of me, if I'm on these appeals, because I found myself in handcuffs and shackles and taken up to Lehigh County Prison, which had a reputation amongst prisoners that I'd talked to over the past year as probably one of the roughest prisons in Pennsylvania.
[41:27.730 --> 41:29.830]  Within a day, Bernie was attacked.
[41:30.410 --> 41:33.830]  He punched me in the mouth and I went down.
[41:34.350 --> 41:37.110]  He's a big guy, probably weighed like 220 pounds.
[41:38.970 --> 41:44.130]  And I think it turns out later he was on drugs and coming down off a crack or something.
[41:45.850 --> 41:53.250]  Anyway, I went down and he started to kick me in the head and I put my arm up to block his kick and it broke my arm also.
[41:53.250 --> 42:00.330]  After bleeding for hours, Bernie was finally taken to the hospital, but the authorities refused to let him contact his relatives.
[42:01.010 --> 42:08.610]  The hospital wanted me to sign this waiver, sign this, you know, wherever you go into surgery, you have to sign this thing, saying that, you know, you understand all the risks involved.
[42:08.690 --> 42:09.690]  I refused to sign the papers.
[42:09.970 --> 42:14.230]  I said, not until I get a hold of my uncle, at least let somebody in my family know what's going on.
[42:14.230 --> 42:19.610]  And the prison officials went bananas that I wouldn't sign this waiver.
[42:19.610 --> 42:28.690]  It was a liability for them that I wasn't getting medical treatment and I was severely injured and they needed to operate on me right away.
[42:28.910 --> 42:35.990]  We got all the way up to the warden at this place and my uncle was a known quantity, a known person in the community.
[42:36.190 --> 42:39.250]  He'd been the president of the city council for years and they all knew who he was.
[42:39.370 --> 42:43.510]  He wasn't someone who was going to run down there and try to spring me out of the hospital.
[42:43.510 --> 42:50.710]  Meanwhile, I was handcuffed and shackled to the hospital bed, which was ridiculous.
[42:50.930 --> 42:51.930]  I didn't feel like going anywhere.
[42:52.290 --> 42:53.930]  I was in bad shape.
[42:54.230 --> 43:05.510]  So with a guard sitting there with a gun, making sure that I didn't like break the handcuffs and run away, I was denied antibiotics for two days.
[43:05.850 --> 43:12.270]  I was denied any painkillers at all, not even aspirin, which I couldn't take because my teeth were completely wired shut.
[43:12.270 --> 43:20.090]  And I was in probably the most excruciating pain that I've ever... I know that I've ever had, but more than I could ever imagine.
[43:20.350 --> 43:24.130]  Having multiple fractures and... and uh...
[43:24.130 --> 43:29.850]  It was... it was like being in an altered state of consciousness, this much pain.
[43:30.290 --> 43:35.770]  And uh... they weren't even bringing me food I could eat, they were bringing me solid food, which I couldn't eat because my jaw was wired shut.
[43:35.770 --> 43:40.450]  I was getting to the point where I really... they were... I was starting to feel like...
[43:41.430 --> 43:42.490]  I don't care anymore.
[43:42.790 --> 43:45.620]  I'm just... I was just really... I was really feeling like...
[43:46.250 --> 43:47.010]  I give up.
[43:47.310 --> 43:49.390]  I just lose my will to go ahead.
[43:50.170 --> 43:54.730]  I was able to get a phone call out the next day, tell people where I was, what was going on.
[43:54.730 --> 44:02.910]  And that really, I think, is when a... a major telephone campaign, internet, crusade started...
[44:04.170 --> 44:05.130]  getting... gaining momentum.
[44:05.490 --> 44:07.770]  Uh... we had like... state representatives getting called.
[44:07.890 --> 44:12.470]  I mean like... major politicians getting calls and... and calling the prison saying, what's with this?
[44:12.530 --> 44:13.970]  What's this generating all the publicity for?
[44:14.530 --> 44:18.470]  Finally, I think the re... the prison and the judge realized they didn't need this publicity.
[44:18.470 --> 44:21.470]  They wanted to get this thing over with and... and wash their hands of it.
[44:21.630 --> 44:27.990]  So, the judge, uh... uh... signed an order to have me released on a medical furlough.
[44:28.750 --> 44:30.750]  Which... the guards had never even heard of before.
[44:30.910 --> 44:31.990]  They said, what the hell is that?
[44:32.170 --> 44:33.190]  There are people who die in here.
[44:33.270 --> 44:34.130]  We don't even let them out.
[44:34.330 --> 44:36.230]  So, this was an unusual, uh... thing.
[44:36.510 --> 44:44.090]  I'm convinced that, uh... that... all the publicity generated by, uh... well, 2,600 magazine...
[44:44.090 --> 44:47.710]  the internet... their website, um... uh... radio interviews.
[44:47.910 --> 44:49.130]  I even forgot to mention that.
[44:49.270 --> 44:52.630]  I'd been, uh... repeatedly interviewed on, uh... WBI's...
[44:52.630 --> 44:55.590]  BII's Off the Hook show with Emmanuel Goldstein.
[44:55.810 --> 44:58.630]  And... people were following this case from... from the beginning.
[44:58.890 --> 45:02.770]  And... it was generating a lot of attention that way as well.
[45:03.110 --> 45:03.970]  I got letters.
[45:04.170 --> 45:05.310]  I got hundreds of letters.
[45:05.530 --> 45:06.470]  We had gotten them out.
[45:06.690 --> 45:08.450]  But it sure didn't feel like a victory.
[45:09.110 --> 45:10.790]  And the scars were permanent.
[45:10.790 --> 45:19.330]  They had to put a, uh... the surgeons mounted a, uh... a titanium, uh... bar in my, uh...
[45:19.330 --> 45:19.970]  in my arm.
[45:20.310 --> 45:22.890]  I don't know if you can, uh... see it or not.
[45:23.150 --> 45:25.590]  There's a nice, uh... scar from here to here.
[45:26.090 --> 45:28.130]  They just, uh... where they put this titanium bar in.
[45:28.930 --> 45:30.990]  And, uh... seven stainless steel screws.
[45:31.090 --> 45:32.410]  This is how much my arm opens now.
[45:32.510 --> 45:33.570]  That's... that's it.
[45:33.970 --> 45:36.570]  That's my full range of motion on my left arm.
[45:36.730 --> 45:38.810]  Unlike my good arm, which straightens out.
[45:39.250 --> 45:40.330]  Anyway, that's what I got.
[45:40.710 --> 45:43.270]  My jaw doesn't open as much, uh...
[45:43.270 --> 45:44.410]  as it used to.
[45:44.510 --> 45:48.250]  If I'm trying to bite an apple, I can't get it in like I used to.
[45:48.410 --> 45:49.750]  But I live with it.
[45:54.350 --> 45:56.010]  And, uh, that, uh...
[45:56.010 --> 45:59.310]  excerpt from Freedom Downtime telling the Bernie S.
[45:59.410 --> 45:59.710]  story.
[46:00.210 --> 46:01.810]  And, uh, what a story it was.
[46:01.950 --> 46:04.110]  Bernie, uh, joins us now live from Philadelphia.
[46:05.070 --> 46:06.150]  And, uh...
[46:06.150 --> 46:13.170]  You know, Bernie, when we show this film to people, there's always somebody who reacts quite emotionally to that.
[46:13.170 --> 46:21.630]  Uh, just, uh, a mix of, uh, of just horror, sadness, uh, anger, um, that such a thing could happen to somebody.
[46:22.830 --> 46:33.210]  Well, I don't think my case is unique, Emmanuel, in that, you know, people, uh, all kinds of people get locked up for all, for, for reasons that shouldn't put them in jail, at the very least.
[46:33.210 --> 46:42.690]  And, uh, you know, a lot of people are treated very poorly, uh, in prison, physically, uh, and, you know, medical treatment is a joke in prison.
[46:42.830 --> 46:45.810]  So this is, you know, I, I don't consider my case to be special in that respect.
[46:46.050 --> 46:55.130]  The only thing that really was special about my case is, uh, besides I was held for reasons that were pretty dubious, was that a lot of people knew about my case.
[46:55.530 --> 46:58.030]  And there are a lot of people that are just lost in the system.
[46:58.170 --> 47:01.230]  They may be there for just pretty ridiculous charges.
[47:01.230 --> 47:03.830]  And mind you, there's a lot of dangerous people in prison, too.
[47:03.990 --> 47:08.110]  But I saw a lot of people there who were for things that, victimless crimes.
[47:08.310 --> 47:09.570]  And they'd been there for years.
[47:09.730 --> 47:11.030]  And nobody knew about their case.
[47:11.130 --> 47:12.250]  Nobody was speaking up for them.
[47:12.670 --> 47:15.670]  Uh, WBAI spoke up for me through off the hook.
[47:16.170 --> 47:19.910]  And that really made a big difference for me from, from just keeping my sanity.
[47:20.290 --> 47:23.830]  And ultimately, I think it had a lot to do with my being released.
[47:23.830 --> 47:27.610]  Even though it was months after my parole date, I was not getting out of there anytime soon.
[47:27.610 --> 47:31.810]  And I don't think I would have had, uh, had not been for this show.
[47:31.990 --> 47:35.510]  So I owe this show, uh, uh, a lifetime of gratitude for that.
[47:35.610 --> 47:37.550]  Because, uh, it was pure hell.
[47:37.810 --> 47:39.470]  And, uh, it saved me.
[47:39.570 --> 47:42.210]  It just goes to show that, uh, it does make a difference.
[47:42.510 --> 47:46.050]  And that's, that's something that, uh, you know, we keep trying to hammer home.
[47:46.230 --> 47:49.310]  And, uh, occasionally it needs to be, you know, told to us.
[47:49.830 --> 47:52.990]  And it's, it's good to hear that from people, that it does make a difference.
[47:54.510 --> 47:58.370]  Um, so that's why it's especially important to, uh, do everything you can.
[47:58.570 --> 48:05.210]  Whether it's showing up at demonstrations, spreading the word, uh, helping to, uh, to get the signal out over the internet.
[48:05.910 --> 48:07.710]  Or pledging, showing your support.
[48:08.170 --> 48:09.850]  Uh, that's what we all have to do.
[48:09.930 --> 48:11.410]  We all have to, uh, do our bit.
[48:11.550 --> 48:13.210]  212-209-2950.
[48:13.410 --> 48:15.790]  We, we got several calls during that segment, which is great.
[48:15.790 --> 48:24.710]  Uh, now that you've heard the segment, please give us a call, show your support, and get a copy of the film as a result, um, of your support as well.
[48:25.070 --> 48:29.510]  Uh, we have, uh, two different pledge categories where you can get the film, $75 and $125.
[48:30.230 --> 48:37.310]  Uh, and you'll also get, uh, a pair of H2K2 tickets to, uh, the Hacker Conference taking place this, uh, July here in New York City.
[48:37.790 --> 48:39.490]  Uh, for the pledge of $125.
[48:40.890 --> 48:42.270]  212-209-2950.
[48:42.430 --> 48:43.570]  Of course, all pledges are welcome.
[48:43.570 --> 48:47.870]  Um, and, uh, there are all different kinds of categories you can, uh, pledge for.
[48:47.970 --> 48:49.210]  Just speak to our Itali people.
[48:49.310 --> 48:52.010]  They'll be quite happy to, uh, help you along there.
[48:52.090 --> 48:53.790]  We have one call on the line right now.
[48:53.890 --> 48:55.790]  Let's see if we can, uh, bring that up.
[48:56.010 --> 49:03.230]  Um, our time is, is coming sort of to a close, but we're going to be sticking around, uh, joining, uh, um, the, uh, Nuff Said people.
[49:03.770 --> 49:06.130]  And, uh, they're, they're joining us right now, in fact.
[49:06.450 --> 49:07.350]  Uh, Ken Gale is here.
[49:08.110 --> 49:08.650]  Hi there.
[49:09.070 --> 49:09.490]  How you doing?
[49:10.410 --> 49:11.270]  And Mercy Van Valk.
[49:11.410 --> 49:12.890]  I'm sorry, and Mercy Van Valk is here as well?
[49:13.050 --> 49:13.250]  Yep.
[49:13.570 --> 49:14.890]  Just getting your microphone up.
[49:15.050 --> 49:16.050]  We have a lot of people here today.
[49:16.970 --> 49:18.170]  We don't have enough microphones.
[49:18.310 --> 49:18.450]  No.
[49:18.650 --> 49:19.750]  WBA needs more equipment.
[49:19.830 --> 49:20.070]  People are sharing.
[49:20.070 --> 49:22.230]  Which is why you should donate money to WBAI.
[49:22.290 --> 49:23.330]  We really need your help right now.
[49:23.570 --> 49:27.630]  We're coming back from the other world, where we were in exile.
[49:27.890 --> 49:29.850]  And now it's a radio station of the people again.
[49:29.990 --> 49:30.290]  That's right.
[49:30.450 --> 49:30.730]  That's right.
[49:30.890 --> 49:32.390]  212-209-2950.
[49:32.690 --> 49:33.670]  Two calls on the line.
[49:34.410 --> 49:37.030]  Let's, uh, let's see if we can make that, uh, five calls.
[49:37.150 --> 49:39.730]  And then, then we have another horror story to tell you.
[49:41.050 --> 49:43.730]  Isn't it great, the payoff that you get for, for, for pledging your support?
[49:43.810 --> 49:45.810]  We tell you horror stories and you, uh, pledge money.
[49:46.230 --> 49:47.830]  Was that an incentive for people to pledge?
[49:47.830 --> 49:48.450]  What is it, Halloween?
[49:48.730 --> 49:49.410]  I, I guess.
[49:49.430 --> 49:50.010]  I don't know.
[49:50.070 --> 49:52.750]  Well, it just seems like, you know, people do want to hear how bad things can get.
[49:52.750 --> 49:55.830]  But, uh, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[49:55.930 --> 49:57.050]  We've been here since 7 o'clock.
[49:57.210 --> 49:59.590]  And so far, we've raised $3,875.
[50:00.350 --> 50:07.690]  We should probably hit $4,000 before we, uh, we, uh, do the official, um, cutover to, uh, to Ken and Mercy's show.
[50:08.370 --> 50:11.710]  Uh, and, um, that's at, that's 10 o'clock, just about 11 minutes.
[50:11.830 --> 50:11.950]  Yes.
[50:12.370 --> 50:25.710]  Uh, thanks, thanks to, uh, the coup and the situation there, uh, the situation in Pacific is much more open to prevent anybody from sneaking around and doing some of the nasty stuff that has been done over the last few years.
[50:25.890 --> 50:26.190]  That's right.
[50:26.470 --> 50:32.470]  And part of this openness is to give power back to the listeners through the local advisory boards.
[50:32.670 --> 50:41.590]  And they're restructuring the local advisory board so that, uh, the listeners, uh, who support the station become members of it.
[50:41.710 --> 50:43.970]  And it'll be members in the truest sense of the word.
[50:44.150 --> 50:46.150]  Well, you will have a say in the operations.
[50:46.650 --> 50:51.630]  And you will even have a say in who goes on to the national board, the Pacifica Foundation.
[50:52.610 --> 50:55.650]  And all you have to do is become a member of WBAI.
[50:55.870 --> 50:58.530]  Uh, if you're unemployed, $25 will do it.
[50:58.730 --> 50:59.070]  That's right.
[50:59.330 --> 51:01.030]  212-209-2950.
[51:01.850 --> 51:08.270]  It's, uh, True People Radio, the closest thing you'll ever find, uh, to that, uh, certainly in this city and most parts of the country as well.
[51:08.810 --> 51:16.230]  Uh, 2002 is going to be a very important year because it's the year we, we put it back together and make it better than it was before it almost fell apart.
[51:16.890 --> 51:20.250]  And, uh, wow, what a, what an incredible year we lived through.
[51:20.430 --> 51:21.610]  Uh, it's all documented.
[51:21.610 --> 51:23.670]  It's all, you know, encoded and saved.
[51:23.690 --> 51:39.110]  In fact, uh, Mike here deserves a lot of credit for helping to establish a system where we were able to, uh, record virtually every single hour of the radio station in 2001, which, uh, was invaluable in, uh, in documenting when certain things were going really,
[51:39.230 --> 51:49.870]  really badly and certain people were, uh, uh, being intimidating or, uh, or, uh, keeping listeners from speaking out or just, uh, abusing their authority in various ways.
[51:50.130 --> 51:55.990]  It was a sad moment in our history, but I think it's something that, uh, we might've needed to go through to give us more strength.
[51:56.750 --> 52:00.150]  So, uh, what we need for strength right now is more phone calls.
[52:00.150 --> 52:03.030]  We have three on the line right now, 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[52:03.610 --> 52:05.650]  And, uh, again, I think the deal was five, right?
[52:05.830 --> 52:10.490]  Yeah, I went, I went back there a little while ago to, to exchange the pledge cards.
[52:10.970 --> 52:14.950]  And they, they urged me to get more people to call because they were really, you know, just sitting around.
[52:15.230 --> 52:16.650]  They're playing cards back there, you know?
[52:16.750 --> 52:18.730]  It's just, we can't have that, you know?
[52:18.810 --> 52:21.810]  People come here, they should be answering the phone, not, uh, dilly-dallying.
[52:21.870 --> 52:27.690]  I mean, these people who are, are giving their time to, to answer your phone calls and you should give them phone calls to answer.
[52:27.810 --> 52:28.110]  That's right.
[52:28.210 --> 52:28.710]  It's an insult.
[52:28.710 --> 52:32.770]  If you, if people come in here to answer your phone call and you don't call them, I mean, come on.
[52:33.230 --> 52:37.590]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0, they are waiting by the telephones, just waiting for the phone to ring.
[52:38.350 --> 52:41.070]  You know how sad you are when you wait by the phone to ring and it doesn't ring?
[52:41.210 --> 52:42.910]  Well, that's how sad these people are right now.
[52:43.010 --> 52:43.570]  2-1-2.
[52:43.670 --> 52:45.230]  2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[52:45.450 --> 52:48.130]  2-1-2, area code, 2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[52:48.230 --> 52:49.910]  Country code 1, if you're out of the country.
[52:50.450 --> 52:51.970]  And, uh, many people are.
[52:52.070 --> 52:58.190]  We get, we get, uh, pledges from, uh, Scotland and, uh, and, uh, do we get anything from overseas that we thank people for today?
[52:58.710 --> 52:59.510]  I think so, not yet.
[52:59.670 --> 53:00.890]  We're in Canada, which is, you know.
[53:00.890 --> 53:02.590]  Well, okay, yeah, same country code, though.
[53:02.710 --> 53:03.470]  Doesn't really count.
[53:03.790 --> 53:06.230]  Oh, yeah, it does count, but it's, you know, it's, it's...
[53:06.230 --> 53:07.310]  Not, not for the phones.
[53:07.510 --> 53:07.670]  Yeah.
[53:07.850 --> 53:08.710]  For other purposes, sure.
[53:08.710 --> 53:13.730]  For other reasons, and, uh, hopefully they'll count a lot more in the future as far as being separate from the United States.
[53:14.350 --> 53:19.690]  Uh, but we, uh, we'd like to hear from people all over the world because we know people all over the world, uh, listen.
[53:20.050 --> 53:20.730]  Four calls.
[53:20.910 --> 53:27.530]  One more call and, uh, we can tell, uh, Ken's, uh, Ken's horror story because, uh, he's, he's got, oh boy, this is, this is something.
[53:27.530 --> 53:29.150]  Um, in four color.
[53:29.490 --> 53:29.730]  Yeah.
[53:30.130 --> 53:32.130]  212-209-2950.
[53:32.950 --> 53:33.990]  Uh, we have...
[53:33.990 --> 53:35.290]  Or 256 color, since it's the internet.
[53:35.350 --> 53:35.970]  That's right, yeah.
[53:36.210 --> 53:37.870]  Started out as a four color nightmare.
[53:38.690 --> 53:45.110]  We have so many different things that you can get for pledging, but the real reason to pledge is just to support this place and, and keep us going.
[53:45.590 --> 53:58.150]  Uh, we have, uh, the documentary that we, uh, we, we basically have been spending our, our time on for the last, uh, three or four years, uh, which is finished on VHS format now and ready to be sent to you in exchange for your pledge.
[53:58.650 --> 54:02.610]  Uh, and, uh, you, you heard a bit of it tonight, but there's, there's so much more.
[54:02.750 --> 54:05.050]  And, and of course you have the picture that you don't see over the radio.
[54:05.730 --> 54:07.150]  212-209-2950.
[54:07.990 --> 54:11.430]  And, uh, um, there are many other levels too.
[54:11.430 --> 54:17.770]  You can get tickets to the, uh, H2K2 conference and, uh, BAI hats and tote bags and whatever else you're talking about.
[54:17.790 --> 54:18.550]  Coffee mugs.
[54:18.690 --> 54:19.010]  Coffee mugs.
[54:19.010 --> 54:20.470]  Canvas bags and t-shirts.
[54:20.730 --> 54:21.370]  We have all this.
[54:21.370 --> 54:22.130]  Glorious t-shirts.
[54:22.330 --> 54:23.510]  But that's not the reason to call.
[54:23.590 --> 54:28.810]  The reason to call is because you believe in this place and, uh, and you believe in supporting us.
[54:29.130 --> 54:30.890]  212-209-2950.
[54:31.990 --> 54:32.670]  Uh, okay.
[54:32.730 --> 54:43.350]  I guess, uh, I guess we're at the point now where we can, uh, we can tell what happened to, uh, nufsaid.net, which if you go to now, this was the site for the radio program, Nuf Said.
[54:43.550 --> 54:45.930]  And, uh, apparently you guys peddle pornography now.
[54:46.150 --> 54:48.030]  Uh, play, play the, our, our cart.
[54:48.230 --> 54:48.750]  Not our idea.
[54:48.750 --> 54:49.970]  I think it's, it's, it's interesting.
[54:49.970 --> 54:50.730]  Should I do that now?
[54:50.930 --> 54:51.190]  Yeah.
[54:51.530 --> 54:51.610]  Uh.
[54:51.610 --> 54:51.770]  Okay.
[54:51.910 --> 54:52.950]  Well, I was going to play that at 10.
[54:53.530 --> 54:54.350]  But I can play it now.
[54:54.350 --> 54:54.650]  No, no, no.
[54:54.810 --> 54:55.830]  Play, play the, the cart.
[54:55.890 --> 54:55.930]  Oh, the cart.
[54:56.110 --> 54:58.010]  Yes, the cart talking about our show.
[54:58.170 --> 54:58.890]  Nuf Said promo?
[54:59.270 --> 55:01.950]  Yes, because there's a, there's, it's a, it's a, it's a nice promo.
[55:02.070 --> 55:06.050]  Ed Menchie, who really is the man who started, uh, Nuf Said, uh, put this together.
[55:06.050 --> 55:07.450]  Whether it's his voice, you'll hear on it.
[55:07.570 --> 55:12.750]  But there's something very interesting at the end of this cart, which moves right into this little horror story we've been talking about.
[55:12.810 --> 55:13.630]  All right, let's, let's listen.
[55:16.110 --> 55:16.670]  Uh-oh.
[55:17.830 --> 55:23.090]  It's, it's, this, this has fallen to the, uh, to the curse of, of Cart Machine 2, which I think means it's not playing.
[55:23.090 --> 55:24.730]  Oh, did you put it in the cart machine on the right?
[55:24.930 --> 55:25.190]  Yes.
[55:25.350 --> 55:25.550]  Yeah.
[55:25.730 --> 55:27.850]  I thought that was a cart machine that worked, so okay.
[55:27.850 --> 55:29.790]  That machine doesn't seem to like to play carts.
[55:29.950 --> 55:31.570]  It's, it, it plays them.
[55:31.630 --> 55:32.630]  It just doesn't play any audio.
[55:33.690 --> 55:34.830]  Okay, well now we have to wait.
[55:36.050 --> 55:42.070]  For those who don't know, carts are, are like, they look like 8-track tapes and you have to wait for them to come all the way around again before you can play them a second time.
[55:42.210 --> 55:44.450]  So, that's what we're doing now, waiting for it to come around again.
[55:44.530 --> 55:45.690]  Yes, it's short for cartridge.
[55:45.990 --> 55:46.110]  Uh-huh.
[55:46.270 --> 55:51.290]  So, whenever you hear somebody promoting a show, uh, you know, that's usually on, on a cart.
[55:51.470 --> 55:51.770]  A tape cartridge.
[55:51.990 --> 55:52.990]  Commercials used to be on carts.
[55:53.210 --> 55:54.770]  In fact, in some stations they still are.
[55:54.990 --> 55:57.410]  And in fact, songs used to be on, on, on, on carts as well.
[55:58.130 --> 55:59.950]  Um, now I think everything is on computers.
[56:00.230 --> 56:00.390]  Yeah.
[56:00.830 --> 56:02.810]  Where did, uh, commercial audio tape come from?
[56:02.910 --> 56:04.090]  Is that what cart stands for?
[56:04.250 --> 56:06.150]  Or did it, at one point, commercial audio tape?
[56:06.430 --> 56:07.590]  Uh, you know, I don't know.
[56:07.670 --> 56:08.470]  But I did see...
[56:08.470 --> 56:09.150]  That's cat, actually.
[56:09.290 --> 56:13.710]  I saw a, a, a, a format of tape at the, uh, Dayton Hamvention.
[56:14.110 --> 56:16.350]  Uh, that was, uh, what was that called again, Jeff?
[56:16.490 --> 56:17.150]  It was, uh...
[56:17.150 --> 56:17.810]  I don't remember.
[56:18.010 --> 56:18.530]  It was...
[56:18.530 --> 56:19.090]  Some enhanced cassette.
[56:19.310 --> 56:19.450]  Yeah.
[56:19.590 --> 56:20.530]  Oh, Bernie's still here, right?
[56:20.730 --> 56:20.910]  Yeah.
[56:21.010 --> 56:21.410]  Bernie will know.
[56:21.410 --> 56:34.470]  It was a Fidelipac, which was, that's a lot, that's one of the really interesting things about Dayton, is that you find all kinds of bygone technologies that, uh, you just don't see anymore, that people have forgotten about, that might have been a good idea,
[56:34.590 --> 56:34.730]  whatever.
[56:35.130 --> 56:41.210]  This was a, this was a, looked a lot like a regular audio cassette, only it was bigger than an A-track, physically.
[56:41.710 --> 56:46.050]  And it used, uh, used the same size tape as a reel-to-reel, uh, deck.
[56:46.290 --> 56:47.170]  Yeah, it was amazing.
[56:47.550 --> 56:51.170]  It was marketed to, to consumers in the mid-70s.
[56:51.410 --> 56:56.370]  As a, an alternative to, what I call, cassettes, because cassettes are pretty hissy.
[56:57.190 --> 57:03.530]  Um, and it had the fidelity of, uh, reel-to-reel without having to bother with, uh, take-up reels and threading tape and that kind of thing.
[57:03.850 --> 57:09.730]  And it really worked very well, but, you know, like a lot of technology, just because it was superior, it didn't make it in the marketplace.
[57:09.730 --> 57:17.230]  It did, uh, have a, a second life in, uh, in commercial sound production, and in particular radio stations.
[57:17.230 --> 57:22.890]  And it didn't, weren't there was a whole set of, uh, cartridges there with, uh, stuff from radio stations on them, I think?
[57:23.070 --> 57:27.350]  I didn't see that, but I just saw that one cassette, and I was amazed because I had never seen that format before.
[57:27.490 --> 57:32.270]  And I, you know, I work in tape, I work in radio, I've never seen a cassette that big that looked just like that.
[57:32.430 --> 57:36.190]  And, you know, there's always these bizarre, ridiculous formats, but that was one that somehow I missed.
[57:36.850 --> 57:41.010]  Yep, one of the, one of the many things you'll see at HamFest, and in the Dayton HamVention in particular.
[57:41.230 --> 57:47.170]  Okay, well, we, we, we, we killed that time pretty well, uh, the cart has recued and, uh, is ready to be played now.
[57:47.250 --> 57:49.630]  I just want to point out, we've passed the 4,000 mark, which is great.
[57:49.750 --> 57:50.030]  All right.
[57:50.250 --> 57:50.710]  We have four.
[57:50.710 --> 57:51.590]  Thanks for those donations.
[57:51.770 --> 57:52.310]  Thank you so much.
[57:52.390 --> 57:55.150]  We have four calls on the line, so that's even more to be counted.
[57:55.710 --> 57:59.530]  And we have those calls that have not yet been made that I know people are about to make.
[57:59.670 --> 58:01.950]  They just are looking for that, that, uh, that push.
[58:02.090 --> 58:02.790]  Well, here's the push.
[58:02.930 --> 58:03.370]  Call us.
[58:06.190 --> 58:06.410]  Call us to you.
[58:07.190 --> 58:09.590]  What do you, I mean, do you, do you doubt your importance?
[58:09.770 --> 58:12.490]  Do you think that that one phone call isn't going to make any kind of a difference?
[58:12.630 --> 58:13.270]  Of course it will.
[58:13.370 --> 58:16.550]  And Nuff Said has a nice premium package for, for everybody.
[58:17.110 --> 58:25.530]  Uh, two weeks ago, we interviewed Ted Rall, who did a, uh, combination, uh, book and graphic novel called To Afghanistan and Back.
[58:25.850 --> 58:28.430]  Uh, Ted had been in Central Asia four times before.
[58:28.570 --> 58:38.790]  This time he went there after the war started as a journalist and did some very poignant cartoons and articles about what was going on over there, what was really going on over there.
[58:38.830 --> 58:39.110]  Mm-hmm.
[58:39.310 --> 58:43.470]  If you're a journalist from Western Europe or America, the Taliban hates you.
[58:43.670 --> 58:44.510]  They were bombing them.
[58:44.750 --> 58:46.370]  The Americans, uh, hate you.
[58:46.550 --> 58:47.510]  They were bombing them.
[58:47.670 --> 58:49.510]  And the Northern Alliance hates you.
[58:49.650 --> 58:54.630]  I mean, uh, of the 35, he entered Afghanistan with, uh, 32 returned.
[58:54.630 --> 59:02.310]  And they returned, and they returned basically under gunfire, uh, after one of them got killed by someone who was probably Northern Alliance.
[59:02.630 --> 59:02.970]  Yeah.
[59:02.990 --> 59:04.170]  No respect for the press, then.
[59:04.250 --> 59:06.410]  Uh, it's, it's quite amazing.
[59:06.670 --> 59:10.650]  Uh, the first strip in, in the book, I, I, is, is my favorite in there.
[59:10.990 --> 59:14.330]  Uh, it's a picture of Central Asia with Afghanistan missing.
[59:14.810 --> 59:22.870]  Uh, the caption, even if Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden, and the other 16 million people living there were nuked, it wouldn't matter.
[59:23.250 --> 59:25.570]  Most of the jihad camps aren't there anyway.
[59:26.130 --> 59:26.490]  Hmm.
[59:26.910 --> 59:33.050]  Even if we obliterated all of their training centers in Pakistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan, it wouldn't matter.
[59:33.410 --> 59:35.410]  Their former students are now all over the world.
[59:36.230 --> 59:42.210]  Even if we tracked down every single Muslim militant on the planet and killed them, it wouldn't matter.
[59:42.550 --> 59:44.630]  Their friends and relatives would take their places.
[59:45.290 --> 59:50.050]  The last panel, uh, is the man in the bed, and the other pillow is empty.
[59:50.050 --> 59:53.830]  And the caption is, even if it mattered, it wouldn't help.
[59:54.970 --> 59:55.310]  Wow.
[59:55.890 --> 59:57.530]  And that's a premium for enough said.
[59:57.670 --> 59:59.590]  That's, that's part of the premium.
[59:59.890 --> 01:00:17.870]  For, uh, $100, you'll get a copy of To Afghanistan and Back by Ted Rall, uh, talking, engraving about what it was like trying to get there, uh, you know, what the people are doing, um, how the, uh, Taliban folks become part of the North Alliance by taking their hat off and putting on a different one.
[01:00:18.650 --> 01:00:22.610]  Uh, so not only do they have the same policies as the Taliban, they're the same people.
[01:00:23.250 --> 01:00:23.550]  Wow.
[01:00:23.590 --> 01:00:31.850]  Uh, you also get a copy of, uh, the preview of, uh, Rex Mundy, which is an excellent, uh, hard-boiled, uh, comic.
[01:00:32.530 --> 01:00:34.850]  And an issue of Comic Book Artist No.
[01:00:34.930 --> 01:00:39.470]  11, which has, which is the special issue dedicated to Alex Toth and Sheldon Mayer.
[01:00:39.470 --> 01:00:46.990]  Uh, Sheldon Mayer, uh, there used to be an article on the NUFSA webpage, I consider him the most important person in the history of comics for many reasons.
[01:00:47.770 --> 01:00:56.310]  And, uh, this is a, interviews with his kids who were models for things like Sugar and Spike, uh, but it's a great magazine.
[01:00:56.310 --> 01:00:59.670]  Uh, and Mercy and I published comics.
[01:00:59.790 --> 01:01:01.690]  We did eight issues of Evolution comics.
[01:01:01.930 --> 01:01:04.130]  They did well enough that we have second printings.
[01:01:04.450 --> 01:01:11.170]  Uh, part of this package, you get the first printings, uh, of all of the comics that Evolution published.
[01:01:11.650 --> 01:01:19.310]  So, for a hundred dollars, you get a copy of To Afghanistan and back, uh, the Rex Mundy preview comic.
[01:01:19.310 --> 01:01:19.410]  So, for your account have, um, of all of the comics.
[01:01:19.410 --> 01:01:19.450]  Amen.
[00:03.790 --> 00:04.810]  ...comics, first printing.
[00:05.060 --> 00:07.580]  So, we've got a nice package for you, too.
[00:07.820 --> 00:10.360]  Now, do you want me to play this card that we want you to give up?
[00:10.440 --> 00:12.660]  Okay, what's the significance of this now?
[00:13.120 --> 00:14.400]  Okay, well, this is what we...
[00:14.400 --> 00:15.560]  We haven't told the horror story yet.
[00:15.620 --> 00:22.080]  Yeah, this is what people play when they're promoting Nuff Said on this station.
[00:22.260 --> 00:23.960]  And we have to listen for something at the end.
[00:24.100 --> 00:25.200]  Yes, there's something at the end of it.
[00:25.300 --> 00:25.940]  Okay, let's listen.
[00:33.110 --> 00:38.190]  People think comic book is nothing, but comic book shoots right across young culture in America.
[00:38.450 --> 00:39.530]  It shoots right to the kids.
[00:39.890 --> 00:44.370]  It hits key kids who are decision makers in their groups.
[00:44.990 --> 00:47.190]  Comic books are read by people who read.
[00:47.630 --> 00:50.370]  Comic books are commented on by people who think.
[00:50.770 --> 00:56.230]  They're not for stupid people, and they're not for ignorant people, and they're not for non-leaders.
[00:56.230 --> 01:05.230]  They are for everybody, but from my experience, they go directly to people who have things to say, who will have things to say in the future.
[01:05.530 --> 01:14.730]  And the fact that they're being done the way they are, and the fact that they're being done by people who really care about what's going on in America, is, I believe, is going to make a difference.
[01:15.610 --> 01:20.150]  And it's not a small thing that's happening there, and I'm very happy to see it happen.
[01:20.150 --> 01:23.970]  That was Neil Adams, speaking on an early episode of Nuff Said.
[01:24.330 --> 01:30.830]  To hear thought-provoking and entertaining discussion on the subject of comics, tune in every Tuesday night at 10 p.m.
[01:31.150 --> 01:36.290]  for Nuff Said, here on WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[01:36.710 --> 01:41.110]  And visit our website, nuffsaid.net, for our upcoming schedule of guests.
[01:41.790 --> 01:42.590]  See you there.
[01:46.590 --> 01:53.150]  Well, I don't know how you did it, Ken, but you're up to $29,150 in the first couple of minutes of your show.
[01:53.390 --> 01:54.670]  That's phenomenal.
[01:55.930 --> 01:56.810]  That's unbelievable.
[01:57.170 --> 01:59.710]  And maybe somebody down in the tally room is messing around with the calculator.
[01:59.850 --> 02:00.130]  I don't know.
[02:00.250 --> 02:04.490]  I think they're adding up maybe the whole day or the whole evening or the whole something.
[02:05.110 --> 02:10.330]  I don't think in 60 seconds we'll have 29,000 people who want...
[02:10.330 --> 02:12.510]  Don't underestimate your listenership.
[02:12.630 --> 02:14.910]  But call 212-209-2950.
[02:15.250 --> 02:18.290]  If you have $29,150 to pledge, by all means.
[02:18.310 --> 02:21.350]  And that last part of the cart you just heard about...
[02:21.350 --> 02:24.590]  And go to our website for our schedule of upcoming guests.
[02:25.130 --> 02:26.090]  Don't go there.
[02:26.530 --> 02:27.430]  Oh, yeah, right.
[02:27.710 --> 02:28.690]  Don't go there.
[02:28.930 --> 02:30.990]  And there's a lot of people...
[02:30.990 --> 02:37.290]  I suspect people still play this cart and not realizing that nuffsaid.net...
[02:37.290 --> 02:39.990]  Unless you've changed the sort of guests you have on your program.
[02:39.990 --> 02:40.490]  No, we haven't.
[02:40.810 --> 02:45.430]  Well, I mean, it's not that we've never had X-rated guests on the comic.
[02:45.550 --> 02:46.370]  Mercy and I...
[02:46.370 --> 02:47.690]  I've written X-rated comics.
[02:48.050 --> 02:49.270]  Mercy has drawn them.
[02:49.370 --> 02:50.250]  There's nothing wrong with it.
[02:50.390 --> 02:51.890]  I'm not against pornography per se.
[02:51.950 --> 02:52.590]  It's not nuffsaid.
[02:52.610 --> 02:56.850]  What I'm against is having our website hijacked and being turned into a site.
[02:57.050 --> 02:59.430]  It sort of costs us a lot of our credibility.
[02:59.950 --> 03:00.490]  Hijacked, eh?
[03:00.690 --> 03:01.550]  It was hijacked, yeah.
[03:01.630 --> 03:03.770]  And I would say that's a nice way of putting it.
[03:04.170 --> 03:06.490]  The Friends of Lulu people mentioned that.
[03:06.590 --> 03:08.170]  They refer to it as hijacking.
[03:08.290 --> 03:09.630]  Oh, that's a nice way of putting it.
[03:09.630 --> 03:11.790]  So I'll use that word.
[03:11.850 --> 03:16.530]  That's one of the many links that we had that we have now lost because of what's happened to the website.
[03:17.270 --> 03:17.810]  And I think it's...
[03:17.810 --> 03:19.890]  What does nuffsaid have to do with pornography anyway?
[03:19.970 --> 03:22.770]  Why would somebody take your website and turn it into a porno site called nuffsaid?
[03:22.770 --> 03:24.690]  Because we got a lot of traffic, I think.
[03:24.830 --> 03:30.050]  People are going to sites that have a lot of hits and they'll just say, oh, well, the thing wears off.
[03:30.150 --> 03:33.770]  You know, like you haven't renewed it because nobody was communicating.
[03:33.910 --> 03:35.030]  No communication was going on.
[03:35.030 --> 03:38.410]  And suddenly it was up for sale and anyone can buy it at that point.
[03:38.530 --> 03:39.570]  And so, oh, this has a lot of hits.
[03:39.650 --> 03:40.350]  Let's just buy that.
[03:40.450 --> 03:43.170]  And they just slap their website under your name.
[03:43.290 --> 03:44.470]  And they've done this to people.
[03:44.590 --> 03:45.210]  It's been in the paper.
[03:45.330 --> 03:54.370]  Well, the irony is I saw a lot of the email shooting back and forth that Ken was trying to gain control because it had been registered by somebody else.
[03:54.630 --> 03:55.190]  By Ed Menji.
[03:55.330 --> 03:55.450]  Yeah.
[03:55.570 --> 03:58.590]  And you were trying to renew it, but you couldn't renew it because you weren't him.
[03:58.690 --> 03:59.650]  You couldn't contact him.
[03:59.790 --> 04:02.750]  And they would just reply with these auto replies.
[04:02.990 --> 04:06.510]  And you wouldn't ever get any satisfaction with trying to pay them.
[04:07.010 --> 04:08.570]  And what was the company that you were trying to pay?
[04:08.850 --> 04:10.130]  EasySpace.com.
[04:10.230 --> 04:11.010]  EasySpace.com.
[04:11.130 --> 04:11.790]  They're a company in England.
[04:12.250 --> 04:12.510]  Okay.
[04:12.670 --> 04:19.210]  Maybe this is indication that that's not the kind of company people should register for because if you ever have a problem, they won't respond to you.
[04:19.210 --> 04:24.170]  I am wondering which ones will, but EasySpace certainly did not.
[04:24.330 --> 04:25.250]  I've had...
[04:25.250 --> 04:42.710]  I know people say a lot of bad things about network solutions, but when our domain got hijacked a couple of years ago because somebody actually figured out a way to fool them because they have no security whatsoever, that's another issue, I finally did reach a person who understood what I was talking about and was able to fix everything.
[04:42.890 --> 04:44.610]  And there's nothing better than that.
[04:44.650 --> 04:48.810]  I've also complained about Amazon on the radio, and I had a problem with them.
[04:48.810 --> 04:52.290]  I reached somebody who understood how their systems work.
[04:52.370 --> 04:54.910]  I actually talked to a person at Amazon, and they fixed everything.
[04:55.110 --> 04:59.950]  So if you can actually do that and reach a human being, there's no limit to what they can do.
[05:00.130 --> 05:05.290]  It's when you only reach the computers and you can't get past them that you just have to suffer.
[05:05.450 --> 05:07.370]  And suffer is what you did.
[05:07.670 --> 05:08.870]  I am still suffering.
[05:08.870 --> 05:12.810]  One day it just expired, and all of a sudden it belonged to somebody else.
[05:12.930 --> 05:20.510]  I mean, it wouldn't have been as depressing and angry if I hadn't been trying to do it correctly.
[05:20.790 --> 05:37.250]  You know, before the date was up, I was trying to get the website put into my name instead of Ed's so that I could, you know, renew it, so I can give them the money to register it, and all they did was say, I mean, you ought to have made a response on how to re-register it if I was the same person.
[05:39.150 --> 05:45.310]  And every piece of mail, you know, your new password, they would send to Ed.
[05:45.990 --> 05:51.250]  Ed is not even on a computer right now due to, you know, other personal problems.
[05:52.150 --> 06:00.990]  They did send a snail mail response, which we, which Ed's ex-wife, ex-wife is one of the reasons he's not around.
[06:01.150 --> 06:03.810]  We got that a few weeks ago, like days after the deadline, weeks after the deadline.
[06:03.810 --> 06:04.950]  Yeah, I mean, this was, you know...
[06:04.950 --> 06:06.810]  We didn't get it until weeks, you know, after the deadline.
[06:07.030 --> 06:11.050]  She received it, you know, weeks after it was supposed to be renewed in the first place.
[06:11.310 --> 06:14.510]  And, of course, she didn't know what it was, and now it's not important, you know.
[06:16.950 --> 06:21.890]  But the point is that I kept trying to communicate with the actual company who registered it.
[06:22.710 --> 06:24.290]  And they just got automated response.
[06:24.490 --> 06:43.390]  Finally, almost 30 days after the registration should have been renewed, I got somebody saying, well, tell Isaac, who is the contact person from them, to change the name from Ed to me, which Isaac said he already did.
[06:43.830 --> 06:48.950]  So it should have been okay, but they didn't have it or said they didn't have it.
[06:49.050 --> 06:50.750]  Or else Isaac didn't really change it.
[06:50.750 --> 06:51.590]  I don't know.
[06:51.770 --> 07:01.350]  I have a tendency to believe Isaac over them, since, you know, they were being so stupid and ignorant before that.
[07:01.770 --> 07:09.610]  Well, if there's anyone out there, and I know there are a lot of off-the-hook listeners remaining who have expertise and connections and things like that.
[07:09.770 --> 07:27.050]  If there's anyone out there who might have a solution for this or some way of fixing things or at least coming up with some better ideas to how to pursue this, maybe a better site, I don't know, please email us at off-the-hook, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[07:27.050 --> 07:28.190]  We'll forward it over to Ken.
[07:28.670 --> 07:32.210]  And maybe we can figure out a way around this kind of thing.
[07:32.250 --> 07:33.170]  But this happens all the time.
[07:33.290 --> 07:34.290]  This happens to a lot of people.
[07:34.290 --> 07:38.290]  Well, yeah, it's fine for it to happen to a lot of people when it happens to you.
[07:38.990 --> 07:45.230]  And the thing is that most of the people it happens to, I understand, people didn't realize about re-registering or whatever.
[07:46.150 --> 07:47.310]  I realized it.
[07:47.790 --> 07:49.970]  And I tried to do it correctly.
[07:51.190 --> 07:57.330]  When I got a new computer almost exactly a year ago, and it destroyed basically my entire high drive.
[07:57.330 --> 07:59.730]  I was trying to make a backup, and it overrode everything.
[07:59.850 --> 08:01.610]  See, that's real pain in my eyes.
[08:01.610 --> 08:05.910]  I mean, here I am, a professional writer, and it destroyed all my writing.
[08:06.010 --> 08:06.910]  There's nothing worse than that.
[08:06.990 --> 08:08.270]  No worse feeling than losing things.
[08:08.430 --> 08:11.210]  And I haven't emotionally or psychically recovered from that.
[08:12.070 --> 08:17.890]  And the thing is like, oh, you have to go on, you have to go on, all that stuff that people always give you when you go through this.
[08:18.330 --> 08:24.190]  And so my going, I said, all right, I'll do this website, I have a new computer so I can get a website going.
[08:25.150 --> 08:28.270]  And I've got, I don't know how many links I've got.
[08:28.350 --> 08:29.730]  I've got dozens and dozens of links.
[08:29.730 --> 08:35.330]  It's because the comic book community online is quite extensive and quite powerful.
[08:35.850 --> 08:37.710]  You know, we've done some wonderful things.
[08:38.290 --> 08:40.430]  And it's a wonderful community to be in.
[08:40.490 --> 08:44.050]  And a lot of people link to nuffstead.net.
[08:45.190 --> 08:49.490]  And including, like, the Golden Age of Radio, which is here on Sunday nights.
[08:49.990 --> 08:50.670]  You heard from Max.
[08:50.670 --> 09:00.150]  You know, Max told me a woman was, had her child on her lap, or so she claims, and linked to my site from Max's site.
[09:00.370 --> 09:02.170]  And up pops a porn site.
[09:02.410 --> 09:03.010]  Polly and the porny.
[09:03.310 --> 09:04.990]  Sounds like George Carlin all over again.
[09:05.230 --> 09:08.570]  Minister driving with his son and hearing the seven dirty words on the radio.
[09:08.950 --> 09:16.470]  And whether it's true or not, even if it didn't happen in her case, which it probably did, it could happen and probably has many cases.
[09:17.590 --> 09:22.490]  You know, the Friends of Lulu is an organization to promote comic books by women and for women.
[09:22.910 --> 09:24.950]  And they linked to the nuffstead site.
[09:25.170 --> 09:29.330]  And I got a CC from somebody who says, you better break that link.
[09:30.050 --> 09:31.090]  Take my word for it.
[09:31.130 --> 09:32.290]  Don't go and check it yourself.
[09:32.290 --> 09:33.990]  Because you're not going to like what you find.
[09:35.910 --> 09:38.950]  And I don't want to be in a position of being anti-pornography.
[09:39.430 --> 09:42.870]  I'm just anti the company that wouldn't let me re-register my site.
[09:43.170 --> 09:45.470]  I am anti the company that took it over.
[09:46.570 --> 09:52.050]  Remember, you know, Isaac said when I was starting to panic, you know, before the thing was up, he said, oh, there's a grace period.
[09:52.150 --> 09:52.830]  Don't worry about it.
[09:52.970 --> 09:54.570]  Well, the grace period, I guess, is 30 days.
[09:54.710 --> 09:55.610]  You had thought it was 90.
[09:55.990 --> 09:57.410]  It is with Network Solutions.
[09:57.550 --> 09:57.990]  It's 90 days.
[09:58.270 --> 10:01.030]  Well, it was 30 in my case.
[10:01.850 --> 10:03.530]  And I just couldn't get it.
[10:03.610 --> 10:04.990]  And I don't know how to get it back.
[10:05.690 --> 10:11.470]  I have been despondent for a month now because that's about how long ago this happened.
[10:11.630 --> 10:14.870]  Now, I don't think, though, there was 30 days where the site didn't belong to anybody.
[10:14.870 --> 10:18.230]  It seemed to me like one day it belonged to you and one day it belonged to these other people.
[10:18.390 --> 10:19.050]  They snapped it up.
[10:19.170 --> 10:20.650]  That's the hijack part.
[10:20.850 --> 10:21.810]  Yeah, that's the hijacking part.
[10:22.250 --> 10:23.350]  It was that quick.
[10:23.510 --> 10:25.030]  It didn't belong to them and they just took it.
[10:25.150 --> 10:34.410]  And Jim Freund heard about me being despondent about it and called me up trying to help because he knows a bit about computers, as you know, since off the hook started on his show.
[10:34.510 --> 10:34.750]  Absolutely.
[10:34.750 --> 10:38.270]  And he looked up who had it.
[10:39.250 --> 10:46.610]  And it was a company in the same city that does all the registrations of web domains.
[10:47.010 --> 10:51.750]  So he said, I know there's a conflict of interest, but that conflict of interest exists.
[10:51.750 --> 10:59.510]  So they may have grabbed it because it's a high traffic site, especially on Tuesday nights since the show was at 10.
[10:59.690 --> 11:04.830]  And a lot of people come in and then they will link to whoever I'm talking about.
[11:05.750 --> 11:09.630]  And a lot of people listen to the show by coming to the nuffstead.net site.
[11:09.750 --> 11:17.630]  We hand out hundreds of flyers at most conventions telling people to listen to BAI 24 hours a day.
[11:17.770 --> 11:19.250]  You can go in via our website.
[11:19.910 --> 11:21.430]  And I've got articles.
[11:21.570 --> 11:26.970]  I've got articles on 9-11 and WTO and various comic book creators and whatever.
[11:27.830 --> 11:31.350]  An incredible number of links to various writers and artists.
[11:33.250 --> 11:34.450]  And that's all gone.
[11:35.150 --> 11:36.150]  Well, it's not all gone.
[11:36.150 --> 11:37.210]  It just isn't reachable.
[11:37.390 --> 11:37.990]  It's not reachable, yeah.
[11:38.150 --> 11:38.310]  Right.
[11:39.590 --> 11:42.990]  Until you either come up with a new site or you get that name back.
[11:43.010 --> 11:43.810]  Yeah, my feeling...
[11:43.810 --> 11:53.490]  It's like after losing everything of my hard drive last year and then this happening, I was like, I don't think I even belong in this computerized future that we're living in right now.
[11:53.610 --> 11:57.150]  And this is my feeling about the future in computers.
[11:57.150 --> 11:58.010]  But you see, that's the thing.
[11:58.050 --> 11:58.330]  I don't belong there.
[11:58.530 --> 11:59.970]  Everybody belongs there.
[12:00.050 --> 12:04.050]  And everybody has the right to say, this is how I want my environment to be.
[12:04.850 --> 12:11.710]  And they should not be intimidated by other people who may have more money or more bandwidth or, you know, more connections or anything like that.
[12:11.870 --> 12:13.350]  Everybody has the right to be there.
[12:13.450 --> 12:14.830]  Everybody has the right to express themselves.
[12:15.610 --> 12:18.770]  I can agree with you intellectually, emotionally.
[12:19.350 --> 12:21.870]  I'm like, oh, that is such bleep.
[12:23.210 --> 12:26.070]  Well, you know, practically I know when something like this happens.
[12:26.290 --> 12:31.570]  But the thing is to not have these things happen, to protect ourselves against that somehow.
[12:32.170 --> 12:33.490]  Yeah, I was trying.
[12:34.230 --> 12:35.670]  I just have a quick question.
[12:35.870 --> 12:42.550]  Did you try to pay for the site under your friend's name, just send a money order with his name on it, just so that you could continue to go?
[12:42.550 --> 12:43.410]  No, no, I didn't.
[12:43.510 --> 12:46.950]  I kept trying to, you know, put the right registration and everything else.
[12:47.030 --> 12:48.790]  And they weren't giving me that option.
[12:48.910 --> 12:54.770]  They kept giving me these automated responses, you know, go to our website and go to this page on the website and you can do this.
[12:54.810 --> 12:56.430]  I'm like, no, Ed can do this.
[12:56.510 --> 12:57.050]  I can't.
[12:57.070 --> 12:59.450]  This is the whole reason I am writing to you.
[12:59.530 --> 13:01.070]  It used to be that you could do that.
[13:01.190 --> 13:12.670]  You could, I know somebody renewed Hotmail a few years ago because they let their site lapse and somebody actually renewed the site for them and prevented it from falling into someone else's hands.
[13:13.550 --> 13:14.850]  I don't think you can do that anymore.
[13:15.170 --> 13:16.230]  It's a good service.
[13:16.570 --> 13:17.310]  No, you have to have the secret code.
[13:17.430 --> 13:20.250]  And if you don't have the secret code because the person's not available, you're out.
[13:20.350 --> 13:22.710]  And they'll give you a new secret code, but they send it to the person.
[13:22.890 --> 13:23.430]  If you're that person.
[13:23.650 --> 13:30.510]  Which makes sense because then anybody can come in and say, by the way, I'm now running, you know, IBM.com and give it to me.
[13:31.650 --> 13:37.090]  But the thing is, if the person who they have a register with, in my case, Isaac, has changed the name...
[13:37.090 --> 13:38.030]  But how...
[13:38.030 --> 13:39.330]  Okay, you raise a good point.
[13:39.490 --> 13:43.130]  How would you expect them to believe that you weren't up to no good?
[13:43.250 --> 13:44.350]  How would they verify that?
[13:45.990 --> 13:46.470]  They're...
[13:46.470 --> 13:53.330]  Okay, nufsted.net is hosted by ctech.org, which is itself hosted by 2600.com, right?
[13:54.110 --> 14:02.410]  And so, they have the contact name, Ed Menji, of nufsted.net, and that's registered with Isaac at ctech.
[14:02.810 --> 14:09.610]  And so, his point was to have changed it from... the contact from Ed to me and the email just from Ed's to mine.
[14:10.210 --> 14:13.030]  And, you know, I'm assuming he did that.
[14:13.530 --> 14:18.530]  And they're supposed to now send everything to me and let me register the darn thing.
[14:18.530 --> 14:24.470]  Let me give them money, and they wouldn't take it because they were too busy giving me automated responses.
[14:24.610 --> 14:26.410]  I wish I had known about this before this happened.
[14:29.710 --> 14:31.010]  We'll figure something out.
[14:32.950 --> 14:34.370]  You know how much optimism I have?
[14:35.330 --> 14:36.290]  Let's play the theme.
[14:36.310 --> 14:36.870]  Yeah, let's play the theme.
[14:36.910 --> 14:38.910]  Let's play the theme to nufsted.
[14:39.210 --> 14:40.290]  I still got the radio show.
[14:40.510 --> 14:41.090]  Yeah, we're going to...
[14:41.090 --> 14:41.910]  I still got the radio show.
[14:42.010 --> 14:42.570]  I haven't hijacked that.
[14:42.650 --> 14:47.610]  Can you imagine if pornographers hijacked your radio show and we're coming in here every week instead of you and you couldn't do anything about it?
[14:47.970 --> 14:49.550]  All right, we're going to play your theme.
[14:49.730 --> 14:52.110]  And while we play the theme, I'm going to get up and go over to where you are.
[14:52.170 --> 14:56.590]  You're going to get up and go to where I am and take control of the 50,000-watt radio station here.
[14:57.070 --> 14:58.290]  And hopefully people will...
[14:58.290 --> 15:01.030]  You know, your pledges are still at 29,000 and change there.
[15:01.110 --> 15:02.470]  I don't know what's going on down there.
[15:04.070 --> 15:09.550]  All right, so hopefully people will call in 212-209-2950 as Off the Hook turns into Nuff Said.
[15:22.440 --> 15:23.080]  Thanks.
[15:26.420 --> 15:28.540]  I want to be like that.
[15:33.500 --> 15:36.640]  I want to be a comic book hero.
[15:37.060 --> 15:39.600]  That's not my son, it's on the beach.
[15:39.840 --> 15:42.560]  I want to be a comic book hero.
[15:42.860 --> 15:44.240]  Comic book heroes.
[15:45.080 --> 15:46.440]  Oh, we're in the name.
[15:51.780 --> 15:54.920]  X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four.
[15:55.840 --> 16:00.780]  I wanna be like them to save the world who could ask for more.
[16:01.680 --> 16:03.660]  I wanna be like them.
[16:03.660 --> 16:08.700]  I wanna be a comic book hero, wear a fancy costume and I'm real tough.
[16:09.580 --> 16:13.640]  I wanna be a comic book hero, comic book heroes.
[16:14.220 --> 16:15.660]  A real road,
[16:39.000 --> 16:41.840]  dark dark from doom and the needle.
[16:43.200 --> 16:47.780]  I wanna be like them to pass up wind out every needle.
[16:48.800 --> 16:52.800]  I wanna be like them.
[16:52.800 --> 16:55.700]  Flexing our muscles on the bench.
[17:01.260 --> 17:02.420]  I gotta reach.
[17:03.900 --> 17:05.380]  I gotta reach.
[17:06.320 --> 17:06.440]  I gotta reach.
[17:24.960 --> 17:26.060]  I gotta change.
[17:26.640 --> 17:28.980]  I gotta reach.
[17:29.960 --> 17:35.160]  And you're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
[17:35.720 --> 17:41.380]  And this is Nuff Said, combined with Off the Hook.
[17:42.300 --> 17:43.140]  Who is that?
[17:43.140 --> 17:45.540]  I make that mistake every once in a while.
[17:45.540 --> 17:47.120]  I just made it again.
[17:48.820 --> 17:55.300]  Anyway, getting all stressed out just talking about this whole web stuff.
[17:55.460 --> 17:59.860]  Actually, that was my mistake because I left the CD player in continuous mode instead of single track mode.
[18:00.180 --> 18:00.720]  Whatever.
[18:01.820 --> 18:02.580]  It's electronics.
[18:02.820 --> 18:03.660]  It's electronics, right.
[18:05.600 --> 18:07.480]  Sorry, we've had a problem with computers.
[18:08.480 --> 18:09.020]  Anyway...
[18:09.020 --> 18:11.340]  Your pledges have changed to zero now.
[18:12.460 --> 18:14.660]  Oh, I just lost $29,000.
[18:14.800 --> 18:15.400]  Is that what you're saying?
[18:15.460 --> 18:15.640]  Some start again.
[18:16.860 --> 18:19.500]  212-209-2950.
[18:19.500 --> 18:22.600]  A place to become a member of WBAI FM.
[18:22.940 --> 18:26.380]  And for $50, you become a member of the station.
[18:26.380 --> 18:37.760]  You'll be able to vote with the local advisory board and have a large say on what goes on at this station and at the Pacifica Foundation that runs all five stations.
[18:38.300 --> 18:45.140]  So, I mean, that's a pretty powerful amount of say you've got for $50 and $25 if you're unemployed.
[18:45.140 --> 18:47.040]  That's participating in your democracy.
[18:47.260 --> 18:48.400]  That's how democracy is done.
[18:48.480 --> 18:53.100]  And if you put in an extra $50, you will get a copy of Ted Rawls to Afghanistan and back.
[18:53.340 --> 18:55.060]  He was on our show a couple weeks ago.
[18:55.060 --> 19:10.980]  He was the one who went to Afghanistan after the war started and reported on it firsthand, talking about some of the lies that you would have heard on commercial television and replying in great detail to...
[19:10.980 --> 19:11.980]  Everybody should read this book.
[19:11.980 --> 19:14.160]  It was an amazing book.
[19:14.340 --> 19:21.940]  It was heart-rending, talking about the three journalists who he went with who never came back.
[19:24.300 --> 19:32.200]  Killed by each of the different factions there, one by the Northern Alliance, one by the Taliban, and one by the U.S.
[19:32.260 --> 19:32.580]  bombs.
[19:33.280 --> 19:35.880]  They will bomb a journalist convoy.
[19:35.880 --> 19:43.260]  And the journalists will put, you know, the fact that there are journalists on the top of their vans, figure that this will keep the U.S.
[19:43.280 --> 19:45.400]  Air Force from bombing these particular cars.
[19:45.720 --> 19:47.680]  But it doesn't for some reason.
[19:48.720 --> 19:57.020]  And if a journalist gets injured, like the person who got injured by the Taliban bomb, they're sending supplies from Tajikistan all the time.
[19:57.020 --> 19:58.580]  And so they go back empty.
[19:59.420 --> 20:02.560]  And they don't do medical evacuations for journalists.
[20:02.740 --> 20:03.660]  No, they wouldn't take him out.
[20:03.680 --> 20:04.420]  The man died.
[20:04.560 --> 20:05.040]  They let him die.
[20:06.120 --> 20:07.420]  And, you know, whose fault is it?
[20:08.720 --> 20:09.260]  Everybody's fault.
[20:09.420 --> 20:09.780]  Neglect.
[20:09.780 --> 20:09.840]  Neglect.
[20:10.780 --> 20:13.220]  It's amazing the amount of stuff that has happened.
[20:13.460 --> 20:17.540]  And he documented it both in prose and in comics.
[20:18.180 --> 20:29.360]  And since he had been to that area of the country several times before, he knew a little bit more about the customs and the prices of things than the other journalists.
[20:29.600 --> 20:34.500]  So where CNN got charged $1,400 to go across the border, he got charged $40.
[20:34.660 --> 20:37.140]  That's a great title for a book, Prose and Comics.
[20:38.100 --> 20:38.840]  That's great.
[20:39.620 --> 20:42.140]  You also get the latest issue of the comic book artists.
[20:42.260 --> 20:42.680]  Well, not the latest issue.
[20:42.680 --> 20:43.480]  No, not the latest issue.
[20:43.600 --> 20:44.720]  The best issue.
[20:44.900 --> 20:48.100]  Sugar and Spike issue of comic book artists.
[20:48.120 --> 20:50.560]  Sugar and Spike, I think, is one of the best comics ever made.
[20:50.660 --> 20:54.380]  One of the most brilliant, most clever, and most poignant.
[20:55.000 --> 20:59.280]  Great statements on just how people are and how they try to figure out the world.
[20:59.940 --> 21:03.840]  And comic book artists did a special on Shelton Mayer, who created it.
[21:04.020 --> 21:05.740]  And that is part of this package.
[21:06.400 --> 21:10.600]  All of the comic books that Mercy and I published as evolution comics, you will get.
[21:10.740 --> 21:11.920]  And you get the first printings.
[21:12.020 --> 21:12.880]  There are second printings.
[21:12.980 --> 21:14.180]  You'll be getting the firsts.
[21:14.320 --> 21:18.540]  And you also get an issue of Rex Monday, hard-boiled detective stories, and the film noir.
[21:18.820 --> 21:21.660]  And so a lot of stuff you get for...
[21:21.660 --> 21:21.840]  That's for $100.
[21:22.140 --> 21:23.080]  An extra $50, $100.
[21:23.080 --> 21:25.240]  $100 donation to WBAI.
[21:25.460 --> 21:28.260]  If you can call 212-209-2950.
[21:28.440 --> 21:29.580]  We take Visa card.
[21:29.760 --> 21:31.420]  You can pay it over a period of time.
[21:31.600 --> 21:37.900]  If you can't afford that much, if you just want to show your support for this show and the station, you know, $10, $20, every little bit helps.
[21:38.640 --> 21:40.160]  We have to keep the machinery going.
[21:40.300 --> 21:42.240]  We have to pay rent down here on Wall Street.
[21:42.240 --> 21:45.920]  And to keep the show going so that you get shows like this.
[21:46.140 --> 21:47.440]  And information.
[21:48.620 --> 21:49.920]  You will get it.
[21:50.240 --> 21:50.540]  That's right.
[21:51.220 --> 21:52.960]  212-209-2950.
[21:53.420 --> 21:54.320]  Get those phones ringing.
[21:54.420 --> 21:55.900]  And let's introduce ourselves.
[21:56.000 --> 21:56.760]  All of us.
[21:57.040 --> 21:58.200]  I'm Ken Gale.
[21:58.480 --> 21:59.740]  And I'm Mercy VanVleck.
[22:00.680 --> 22:01.680]  Manuel Goldstein.
[22:02.400 --> 22:03.040]  Jeff Flash.
[22:04.220 --> 22:05.100]  I'm Mike.
[22:07.220 --> 22:08.600]  I'm Red Balaclava.
[22:09.280 --> 22:10.400]  And Porkchop.
[22:12.060 --> 22:12.460]  Indeed.
[22:12.640 --> 22:13.160]  All roomful.
[22:13.360 --> 22:13.700]  Yes.
[22:13.860 --> 22:17.560]  So we're combining with the off-the-hook folks and we're going until midnight.
[22:17.780 --> 22:19.540]  So it would be our normal time.
[22:19.680 --> 22:20.600]  Yes, it's 10 to 11.
[22:20.760 --> 22:22.660]  This time we're going all the way to midnight.
[22:23.160 --> 22:26.720]  And so we're trying to get your support for WBAI-FM.
[22:26.960 --> 22:30.040]  And right now there are zero calls coming in.
[22:30.180 --> 22:31.660]  And zero dollars on the tally.
[22:31.940 --> 22:33.480]  That is completely unacceptable.
[22:34.240 --> 22:34.500]  Uh-oh.
[22:34.620 --> 22:35.860]  But it does line up rather nicely.
[22:38.040 --> 22:39.500]  But we need to fix that.
[22:39.500 --> 22:41.160]  Yeah, we need to make it look all crazy.
[22:41.380 --> 22:42.800]  And you know, every phone call matters.
[22:42.980 --> 22:44.020]  Every phone call counts.
[22:44.340 --> 22:46.020]  212-209-2950.
[22:46.240 --> 22:47.600]  Be our first phone call.
[22:47.740 --> 22:48.400]  Be our second.
[22:48.620 --> 22:49.060]  Our fourth.
[22:49.160 --> 22:49.480]  Our tenth.
[22:49.920 --> 22:52.140]  This is your chance to ruin symmetry.
[22:52.460 --> 22:53.640]  Something you don't get often.
[22:54.860 --> 22:56.880]  212-209-2950.
[22:56.880 --> 22:57.800]  Oh, in New York City.
[22:59.900 --> 23:04.900]  And anyway, why don't we go with our usual news segment that Mercy does every week.
[23:05.120 --> 23:07.360]  The Nuff Said News for May 21st, 2002.
[23:07.360 --> 23:08.920]  Folks, call in.
[23:09.820 --> 23:10.300]  That's right.
[23:10.700 --> 23:16.320]  Comic book artist Tom Sutton was found in his apartment by Massachusetts police on May 1st, dead of his yet unannounced causes.
[23:16.460 --> 23:17.140]  He was 65.
[23:17.540 --> 23:19.880]  For the most part, he eschewed superhero work.
[23:19.880 --> 23:23.640]  Though he did work on Marvel's Doctor Strange, he drew an issue of Captain Marvel and Inked Warlock.
[23:24.520 --> 23:29.200]  The Marvel work, this writer, Pierce Askegren via Steve Shen, sent us this.
[23:29.540 --> 23:30.600]  He remembered like best.
[23:30.680 --> 23:32.960]  It was a pair of stories published in the company's ARG!
[23:33.120 --> 23:38.220]  dark humor comic, featuring a gigantic sentient rat with the mind of a dead gangster on a rampage in New York.
[23:38.520 --> 23:40.520]  Everyday thing, but beautifully drawn.
[23:40.820 --> 23:45.120]  Mostly he drew horror and science fiction stories, and he drew them in great quantity for whoever would publish them.
[23:45.280 --> 23:51.680]  He also drew sex comics for Fantagraphics under the Dementia pseudonym, and extensive commercial art for New England ad agencies.
[23:51.960 --> 23:53.680]  Sutton was fantastically prolific.
[23:53.840 --> 24:00.060]  Perhaps because of his speed, his work had a busy, sometimes sloppy look to it, and he relied more on expressiveness than tight draftsmanship.
[24:00.300 --> 24:05.420]  His Charlton stories are especially energetic-looking and feature a wide range of technique.
[24:05.640 --> 24:09.980]  His influences appear to have included EC artists Graham Engels, Wally Wood, and Jack Davis.
[24:10.100 --> 24:12.080]  The latter is especially evident in his humor work.
[24:12.820 --> 24:15.800]  And Robert Kaniger, unfortunately, has also passed away.
[24:17.280 --> 24:21.320]  He was working for DC Comics for years.
[24:21.520 --> 24:28.880]  He had showed early promise as a writer when his short stories and poetry began appearing in magazines, including The Loyalist and The Bridge in the late 20s.
[24:29.100 --> 24:33.040]  He won a New York Times Collegiate short story contest in 1932.
[24:33.500 --> 24:39.140]  And he wrote for popular radio shows, including House of Mystery and Cavalcade of America in the 30s.
[24:39.140 --> 24:46.460]  His earliest comics work was for Fox's Blue Beetle and MLJ Archie, doing Steel, Sterling, and The Web, and other titles.
[24:46.880 --> 24:51.900]  Editor Sheldon Mayer gave Kaniger his first DC work in 1946 in Sensation Comics.
[24:52.220 --> 25:01.180]  Kaniger soon found himself providing scripts for Green Lantern, The Flash, Hawkman, The Atom, The Justice Society of America, and Wonder Woman, whose adventures he went on to write for the next 20 years.
[25:01.820 --> 25:04.600]  1946 also saw Kaniger hired as an editor at DC.
[25:04.960 --> 25:09.720]  He would remain on staff through 1968, then return again as editor from 72 to 74.
[25:10.180 --> 25:10.860]  Joe Kubert.
[25:11.080 --> 25:12.820]  I worked with Bob for about 30 years.
[25:13.020 --> 25:16.920]  Our collaboration was always terrific for me, and his stories were always great to work on.
[25:17.100 --> 25:21.300]  He had the ability to write in a way that painted pictures verbally, which made my job easy.
[25:21.540 --> 25:23.520]  His stuff was so provocative, too.
[25:23.700 --> 25:25.920]  He permitted me a lot of freedom on the stories we did.
[25:26.060 --> 25:27.740]  As far as I'm concerned, he was one of a kind.
[25:28.240 --> 25:33.880]  He wrote Flash comics, Sea Devils, Superman's girlfriend Lois Lane for years, Wonder Woman, Metal Man.
[25:34.320 --> 25:38.740]  He also scripted the first appearance of Barry Allen, The Flash, in Showcase No.
[25:38.840 --> 25:41.480]  4, and did a lot of work on Wonder Woman.
[25:41.580 --> 25:42.380]  Most of all, though...
[25:42.380 --> 25:53.860]  He was a great, great writer in the 40s, and I thought the quality of his writing went down somewhere in the 50s, and I always wondered what happened in his life that did that.
[25:55.000 --> 25:58.240]  He also will be forever identified with war comics.
[25:58.400 --> 25:59.060]  He brought us G.I.
[25:59.100 --> 26:01.260]  Combat, Our Army at War, Our Fighting Forces.
[26:01.260 --> 26:03.280]  A lot of the war comics were written by him.
[26:03.640 --> 26:06.960]  Here's a quote from Kaniger in the pages of 50 Who Made D.C.
[26:07.040 --> 26:07.200]  Great.
[26:07.440 --> 26:10.500]  I draw from life, from emotion, from personal experience.
[26:10.700 --> 26:12.600]  That's what makes my stories what they are.
[26:12.720 --> 26:16.040]  The readers recognize in my books one drive, one thought, one mind.
[26:16.220 --> 26:17.660]  The stories bear my stamp.
[26:17.660 --> 26:22.840]  The family asks that in lieu of flowers, donations to the United Jewish Appeal be made in Kaniger's name.
[26:23.600 --> 26:26.260]  If you'd like to do something in that realm.
[26:26.920 --> 26:31.000]  I also have a professor who's using comics to teach physics.
[26:32.000 --> 26:34.800]  This is a professor in Minnesota, at the University of Minnesota.
[26:34.920 --> 26:38.920]  He's got an elective course for freshmen called Science in Comic Books.
[26:39.660 --> 26:46.180]  Dr. Jim Kakilos says the fun lies in pointing out where the comic book writers got the science right and where they got it wrong.
[26:46.300 --> 26:49.020]  They've explored Spidey, the explosion of Krypton.
[26:49.440 --> 26:54.040]  He concluded that Spidey's web is plenty strong enough to swing him from a building or catch a falling heroine.
[26:54.080 --> 26:57.200]  The comic book says the hero's webbing has the tensile strength of steel.
[26:57.540 --> 27:00.860]  From that, Kakilos calculated it would support a couple of tons.
[27:00.860 --> 27:08.980]  For the final exam, history major Kristen Barbieri discussed how much caloric energy the flash would need to circle the globe in 80 seconds.
[27:08.980 --> 27:11.680]  He said he could never have eaten enough to actually do that.
[27:12.240 --> 27:19.040]  The Spider-Man movie made movie history with the record-shattering opening weekend for a movie sequel in 2004.
[27:19.340 --> 27:29.240]  Well, it's funny you mentioned about using comics to teach physics because another man died recently, Stephen Jay Gould, and he used comics to teach.
[27:29.240 --> 27:38.580]  He did a lecture I saw at the Museum of Natural History, and he was talking about surface area to volume ratios.
[27:38.940 --> 27:51.700]  And he showed slides from various sci-fi movies of the 50s, you know, giant tarantulas and giant insects and, you know, people shrinking and becoming giants and explaining how bad the science was.
[27:51.940 --> 27:58.940]  Then to show a good use of science in fiction, he tossed slides of two different comic books on the wall.
[27:59.240 --> 28:13.780]  One was a Marvel team up with Spider-Man and Yellowjacket, where an explosion, when Yellowjacket was very small, pushed him out of the way and he never got hurt by it because of the force of the explosion pushed him out because he was so small.
[28:14.500 --> 28:17.740]  And that fit right in with his surface area volume ratio.
[28:18.020 --> 28:19.620]  And he said that was quite accurate.
[28:19.880 --> 28:21.860]  He couldn't identify Yellowjacket.
[28:21.860 --> 28:23.280]  He said, that one's Spider-Man.
[28:23.460 --> 28:24.400]  It's not Batman.
[28:24.560 --> 28:25.500]  Anybody know who it is?
[28:25.880 --> 28:26.980]  And I'm sitting there waiting.
[28:27.100 --> 28:28.500]  Is there another comic book fan in the room?
[28:28.600 --> 28:29.920]  Is there another comic book fan in the room?
[28:30.560 --> 28:33.880]  And I guess there wasn't because I yelled out the thing.
[28:33.980 --> 28:35.060]  He says, yeah, I knew somebody would know.
[28:35.140 --> 28:35.620]  They always do.
[28:36.260 --> 28:45.120]  And the other one was in Legion of Superheroes, written by Carrie Bates, where Shrinking Violet was fooled into thinking she couldn't turn back into large size.
[28:45.480 --> 28:55.560]  And she fell from the table and she realized she was falling the way she would fall if she were large, which is much more quickly than if you were small when your surface area is much larger.
[28:55.560 --> 28:59.020]  And he was very impressed with the science in that one.
[28:59.620 --> 29:04.020]  And it turns out his students, he was teaching at Harvard, would give them comic books with science in them.
[29:05.400 --> 29:16.140]  And it was so neat that somebody of his caliber, and Boyd, you know, one of the top scientists the 20th century has produced, you know, using comics in a positive way.
[29:17.380 --> 29:20.040]  And we try to use comics in a positive way here.
[29:20.160 --> 29:20.620]  Enough said.
[29:21.400 --> 29:22.680]  We don't use them for evil.
[29:23.960 --> 29:24.760]  Only for good.
[29:24.760 --> 29:27.760]  We've got all of one pledge that has come in.
[29:27.880 --> 29:28.460]  Thank you for that.
[29:28.500 --> 29:35.300]  And last time, we got an awful lot of pledges doing our show about Tolkien.
[29:35.680 --> 29:40.520]  Now, I hope we don't need to do a Tolkien show for every pledge drive in order to get people to donate money.
[29:40.820 --> 29:42.140]  212-209.
[29:42.240 --> 29:46.100]  The man we had as a guest is the person who writes for Derrick's the Druid for Evolution Comics.
[29:46.140 --> 29:48.200]  And you will get that with a pledge of $100.
[29:48.600 --> 29:49.240]  You will get that.
[29:49.240 --> 29:51.500]  You will get to Afghanistan and back.
[29:51.500 --> 29:54.580]  You will get comic artists, the Shelton Mayor, and Alex Toth issue.
[29:55.100 --> 29:57.320]  So, please call in.
[29:57.640 --> 30:00.180]  212-209-2950.
[30:00.580 --> 30:03.600]  Can we step in and thank some of the remaining people from off the hook?
[30:03.600 --> 30:04.200]  Yes, absolutely.
[30:04.540 --> 30:04.920]  Okay, great.
[30:04.920 --> 30:10.820]  We have Mike and I going to alternate with the names here so that we'll do this quickly.
[30:10.940 --> 30:13.420]  But please, give a call at 212-209-2950.
[30:13.680 --> 30:15.020]  We have $50 so far.
[30:15.020 --> 30:17.220]  We need to expand on that quite a bit.
[30:17.260 --> 30:19.400]  And there's plenty of good material here.
[30:19.420 --> 30:20.540]  Is your premium still available?
[30:20.820 --> 30:21.680]  It's still available.
[30:21.680 --> 30:24.880]  But we really should focus on the enough set premiums right now.
[30:25.000 --> 30:25.040]  Yeah.
[30:25.040 --> 30:31.460]  But if you call 212-209-2950, the pledge people will certainly work with you to get you anything that you want.
[30:31.520 --> 30:36.240]  But the important thing, as I like to stress, is that you have to call for the radio station.
[30:36.640 --> 30:42.080]  Even if we weren't offering any of these thank you gifts, you know, your support is what is needed.
[30:42.160 --> 30:46.520]  And that's what you should be feeling, the need to invest in this place to keep it going.
[30:46.520 --> 30:51.000]  Because if it wasn't here, you'd be hearing, you know, something else on this frequency instead.
[30:51.160 --> 30:53.500]  And you wouldn't be able to call in and be part of it.
[30:53.600 --> 30:55.160]  And that's very important.
[30:55.180 --> 30:57.700]  You'd be hearing five or six songs all the time.
[30:57.860 --> 30:58.180]  Pretty much.
[30:58.360 --> 30:59.380]  Same ones over and over.
[30:59.660 --> 31:00.560]  You'd have no say.
[31:00.760 --> 31:05.000]  Somewhere, you know, in some place, some office somewhere, they decide what a hit is going to be.
[31:05.000 --> 31:06.860]  And you have no say in that.
[31:07.020 --> 31:10.340]  They play the music that they decide you want to hear.
[31:10.620 --> 31:14.100]  And then you go out and you buy it and you confirm that for them.
[31:14.220 --> 31:16.620]  You know, because you have no other way of expressing yourself.
[31:17.620 --> 31:19.160]  This is a way of expressing yourself.
[31:19.280 --> 31:20.980]  212-209-2950.
[31:21.300 --> 31:26.120]  That way you can pledge your support and keep this show, this station going.
[31:26.380 --> 31:27.940]  212-209-2950.
[31:28.100 --> 31:29.040]  Let's thank these people.
[31:29.520 --> 31:29.960]  Sure.
[31:30.000 --> 31:31.900]  Let's thank Bernice from Plainfield, New Jersey.
[31:32.100 --> 31:34.580]  Let's thank Mortimer from Kings Park, New York.
[31:35.200 --> 31:36.840]  Jeremy from Columbus, Ohio.
[31:37.120 --> 31:38.880]  And Uzi from Raleigh, North Carolina.
[31:39.020 --> 31:42.220]  In fact, he was our guest last couple of hours.
[31:43.560 --> 31:51.320]  He's basically having the Nissan Motor Company suing him to take his name away, even though his last name is Nissan.
[31:51.800 --> 31:52.320]  Unbelievable.
[31:52.580 --> 31:56.140]  He felt strongly enough to actually call back and pledge for the show after talking on it.
[31:56.140 --> 31:56.600]  That is cool.
[31:57.040 --> 31:58.020]  That's a good deal.
[31:58.160 --> 32:00.960]  But almost as good as Eugene from Montclair, New Jersey.
[32:01.800 --> 32:04.140]  And Richard from Westchester, Pennsylvania.
[32:04.860 --> 32:05.480]  All right.
[32:05.580 --> 32:06.900]  We passed through there, I think.
[32:07.040 --> 32:07.540]  We're near there.
[32:08.600 --> 32:08.840]  Okay.
[32:09.700 --> 32:11.020]  Rob from Jersey City.
[32:12.400 --> 32:13.900]  Steven from Philadelphia.
[32:14.940 --> 32:17.460]  And we have Claudia from Morristown.
[32:17.820 --> 32:19.740]  Mark, again, from Center Reach, New York.
[32:19.840 --> 32:22.780]  This is the second Center Reach we got in this night.
[32:22.780 --> 32:24.900]  And Alicia from the city.
[32:27.720 --> 32:28.980]  This person has...
[32:28.980 --> 32:29.980]  It's not this person's fault.
[32:30.120 --> 32:30.820]  It's whoever wrote this.
[32:31.440 --> 32:34.080]  It looks like Brian, but it's spelled Brayen.
[32:34.760 --> 32:36.260]  So either one of those.
[32:36.440 --> 32:37.780]  I'm sorry if it's neither.
[32:38.000 --> 32:39.340]  From Washington, D.C.
[32:39.460 --> 32:40.580]  Thanks so much for your pledge.
[32:41.140 --> 32:42.980]  We have Arthur from Port Washington.
[32:43.780 --> 32:46.480]  And John from Lincoln, Nebraska.
[32:46.820 --> 32:47.020]  Goodness.
[32:47.320 --> 32:50.640]  And one more is Josh from San Rafael, California.
[32:50.640 --> 32:51.300]  All right.
[32:51.560 --> 32:55.480]  There's still nobody from overseas, but a good range of the country there.
[32:55.620 --> 32:56.720]  A thousand miles away.
[32:56.940 --> 32:56.980]  Yeah.
[32:57.540 --> 32:59.080]  212-209-2950.
[32:59.080 --> 32:59.840]  Where are you from?
[32:59.900 --> 33:00.860]  How much can you spend?
[33:01.300 --> 33:02.060]  Give us a call.
[33:04.100 --> 33:07.880]  Yes, we're not competing with the off-the-hook folks, but we don't want to look this bad.
[33:11.340 --> 33:14.420]  $50 in total pledges from the Nusshead audience.
[33:14.700 --> 33:16.700]  You've always done better than that.
[33:16.880 --> 33:19.240]  So I'd like to see you do better than that again.
[33:20.280 --> 33:25.260]  And I know there's a lot of you who were not pledging during the coup on principle.
[33:25.540 --> 33:32.760]  Well, as they say on the Morse Orthodox show, now it's time for you to become members on that very same principle.
[33:34.460 --> 33:39.100]  So that's 212-209-2950.
[33:40.520 --> 33:52.440]  So anyway, you were trying to give me some optimism about this whole website stuff and how I still should try to be in the online community and computers are the future and I belong there.
[33:54.280 --> 33:58.480]  Explain to me why and how I still belong there when this kind of stuff happens.
[33:58.880 --> 34:04.520]  Well, if you don't belong there, somebody else is just going to be there in your place and you won't...
[34:04.520 --> 34:04.780]  They are.
[34:04.780 --> 34:06.800]  Well, of course, as they are right now, in fact.
[34:07.100 --> 34:12.460]  I mean, you know, you have every right to be on the internet as anyone else does.
[34:13.220 --> 34:21.080]  You should not be intimidated into not being a part of what's possibly the greatest invention mankind has ever known as far as communication.
[34:21.880 --> 34:26.480]  You're able to reach people all around the planet with whatever words you choose to put out there.
[34:26.560 --> 34:30.600]  You're able to have people listen to your radio program from around the planet.
[34:31.340 --> 34:33.560]  That's something that is magical.
[34:33.560 --> 34:36.400]  It's something that could not happen only a few years ago.
[34:36.620 --> 34:37.620]  Now it is happening.
[34:37.800 --> 34:39.680]  And it's something that we all must take part in.
[34:39.780 --> 34:42.760]  Because if we don't take part in it, the commercial interest will.
[34:42.940 --> 34:45.600]  They'll shape it to their particular vision.
[34:45.840 --> 34:47.420]  They'll charge us for everything.
[34:47.420 --> 34:52.160]  They'll prevent certain things from happening that need to happen, such as free exchange of information.
[34:52.820 --> 34:54.240]  They'll quell that.
[34:54.380 --> 34:58.080]  They'll sue people who try to get around their restrictions.
[34:58.180 --> 35:01.440]  And we'll all wind up playing by their restrictive rules.
[35:01.560 --> 35:10.680]  Whereas if we shape the internet, if we shape the whole communication devices that are invented, all of a sudden you'll have more open source.
[35:10.680 --> 35:18.220]  You'll have more people that are interested in the First Amendment and just sharing information for the sake of freedom of speech.
[35:18.360 --> 35:25.040]  I think you've seen a lot of that on the internet so far because the internet was basically started by people who believe in this kind of a thing.
[35:25.200 --> 35:34.280]  If the internet was started by the same corporations that are trying to run into the ground right now, we'd be looking at a very different animal than what currently exists.
[35:34.280 --> 35:39.860]  There is hope and it's because of institutions that have formed from the internet.
[35:40.960 --> 35:43.160]  We need to keep that strength going though.
[35:43.480 --> 35:48.200]  And the only way to do that is to get more people such as yourself and many, many others involved.
[35:48.840 --> 35:51.080]  Don't be intimidated by what goes on in there.
[35:51.280 --> 35:55.200]  You know, just make your presence known and don't back down.
[35:55.200 --> 35:56.580]  That's my advice.
[35:57.180 --> 35:57.700]  Yeah.
[35:57.880 --> 36:01.380]  When you introduced this, Ken, you said it was a horror story.
[36:01.460 --> 36:06.360]  And the horror is not that it's gone from a comic book site to a porn site.
[36:06.500 --> 36:08.500]  That's just the underlying sub-theme.
[36:08.720 --> 36:26.860]  The horror is that it's gone from a site that you had that was generated toward disseminating your ideas and feeling about comics to the world to a site that is crassly commercial as opposed to just being normally commercial.
[36:27.440 --> 36:36.940]  And it's important for people to get on the internet to present whatever they want to present for the sake of that.
[36:36.940 --> 36:48.800]  I mean, I've had fascinating conversations with people on the street, on the net, about all sorts of weird things that I would not be interested in if it was just presented to me as a list of topics.
[36:49.260 --> 36:53.280]  But it was presented in a way that was original and different.
[36:53.740 --> 36:55.700]  And that's what the net can do.
[36:56.480 --> 37:05.300]  By just people coming in and hijacking your site, all right, and hijacking radio stations across the country.
[37:05.300 --> 37:07.900]  It takes away from that sort of thing.
[37:08.060 --> 37:15.040]  It makes us homogenous, inch by inch, acre by acre, city by city, state by state.
[37:15.300 --> 37:19.240]  And where the net should allow us to be diverse.
[37:20.500 --> 37:20.800]  That's right.
[37:21.140 --> 37:23.020]  212-209-2950.
[37:23.300 --> 37:26.540]  We had three phone calls just now, so let's keep that momentum up.
[37:27.060 --> 37:28.860]  Pledge your support to Nuff Said.
[37:29.020 --> 37:30.720]  Pledge your support to WBAI.
[37:30.720 --> 37:38.740]  I pledge your support to freedom of speech and expression and ensure that this place will be here tomorrow and in the years to come for you to take part in.
[37:38.860 --> 37:43.680]  I mean, if you've ever taken part in this radio show, and I think a lot of your listeners have.
[37:43.820 --> 37:45.340]  You've experienced it in some way.
[37:45.640 --> 37:50.820]  Well, this is a way of investing in that for the future so that it will be there for you.
[37:52.540 --> 37:57.400]  We've said this before where, yeah, WBAI asks for money several times a year.
[37:57.900 --> 38:00.600]  It's because we don't ask for money every day.
[38:00.680 --> 38:03.180]  And what I mean by that is other radio stations...
[38:03.180 --> 38:04.080]  Actually, they don't ask for money.
[38:04.140 --> 38:09.900]  They just take money every single day from you because of all the advertisements that must be paid for.
[38:10.160 --> 38:14.280]  And that goes into advertising budgets of everything that you buy, everything you buy.
[38:15.020 --> 38:19.940]  And they don't ask, would you like to pay to advertise this on Hot 97 or whatever.
[38:19.940 --> 38:20.740]  No, they don't do that.
[38:20.820 --> 38:25.100]  They just basically pay that money and add it to the cost of the product.
[38:25.320 --> 38:27.240]  And that is a fact of life.
[38:27.400 --> 38:34.940]  And you wind up paying orders of magnitude more throughout the course of a year for those commercial radio stations than you do for this.
[38:35.540 --> 38:42.140]  That's why it's important to realize that when we are asking for money, it's because that's the only source.
[38:42.420 --> 38:44.900]  You're our only source of funds.
[38:45.180 --> 38:48.480]  We don't get it from advertisers because we don't have advertisers.
[38:48.480 --> 38:52.960]  If we did, the topics here would be profoundly different.
[38:53.240 --> 38:56.080]  You wouldn't be able to say a lot of the things that you say.
[38:56.200 --> 38:58.400]  I'm sure that applies even to the world of comic books.
[38:58.540 --> 38:59.280]  It absolutely does.
[38:59.280 --> 39:12.000]  If this was a commercial station and there was a comic book show on it, the main advertisers would probably be DC and Marvel, which means that if I were to criticize DC and Marvel, they'd replace me with some shill who would not.
[39:12.000 --> 39:12.400]  Go ahead.
[39:12.500 --> 39:13.320]  Criticize DC Comics.
[39:14.960 --> 39:21.620]  DC and Marvel have something they need to do to keep their sales up.
[39:21.740 --> 39:32.140]  They have to give them what they expect, which means if they push the envelope, if they are a little bit different, if they're a little bit more daring, people are going to go, well, this isn't what I'm expecting.
[39:32.140 --> 39:40.040]  They want, well, the formula is, you know, so many pages of characterization and so many pages of fighting and maybe a little imagination if they think about it.
[39:41.080 --> 39:43.300]  Independent comics don't need to do that.
[39:43.600 --> 39:48.140]  They can cover any subject and they can cover in any way possible.
[39:49.440 --> 39:52.220]  DC and Marvel would not publish to Afghanistan and back.
[39:52.420 --> 39:56.760]  That was published by NBM, which is definitely a much smaller publisher.
[39:57.440 --> 40:01.040]  And they don't have to worry about the same distributor DC and Marvel use.
[40:01.040 --> 40:03.340]  They have, you know, a lot of overseas distributors.
[40:03.520 --> 40:04.780]  They're in a lot of bookstores.
[40:05.480 --> 40:07.600]  Afghanistan back, in fact, is a hardback book.
[40:07.860 --> 40:09.720]  It doesn't look like a comic book at all.
[40:09.800 --> 40:10.580]  It looks like a hardback.
[40:10.840 --> 40:14.400]  And if you open it, the first thing you'll see is several pages of prose.
[40:14.940 --> 40:23.200]  Because when he was in Afghanistan, besides doing his weekly column that appears in the Village Voice in a lot of weeklies, he was also writing for a newspaper column.
[40:24.180 --> 40:29.620]  And so you get those newspaper columns in this book as well as all the strips he did while he was there.
[40:29.620 --> 40:41.900]  It's amazing the parallels that run in all the communities that I visit, including this community right here, of the independent artist having to struggle against a monolithic corporate mentality.
[40:42.520 --> 40:46.120]  And I guess, you know, in the comic book world, this happens a lot.
[40:46.280 --> 40:50.720]  I mean, distribution must be a nightmare if you don't have the backing of certain powerful forces.
[40:50.860 --> 40:51.140]  Distribution...
[40:51.140 --> 41:01.560]  There's one distributor that distributes comic books for every comic book shop in, well, in the U.S., Australia, Canada, England, and several European areas.
[41:02.060 --> 41:03.100]  One distributor.
[41:03.700 --> 41:06.360]  And he doesn't like independent comics.
[41:06.760 --> 41:08.900]  And he won't carry a lot of them.
[41:09.020 --> 41:12.920]  If he carries a few, he'll dump them because he wants something to make so much money.
[41:13.300 --> 41:15.380]  It doesn't matter how much acclaim it gets.
[41:15.540 --> 41:17.200]  It doesn't matter what kind of statements it makes.
[41:17.200 --> 41:20.240]  It only matters if it makes a lot of money.
[41:20.540 --> 41:23.800]  Sounds a lot like commercial radio where the only thing that matters is money.
[41:24.060 --> 41:24.220]  Yup.
[41:24.620 --> 41:28.740]  And, you know, taking over radio stations is the order of the day.
[41:29.160 --> 41:33.900]  You know, this station could be taken over by Clear Channel tomorrow and it wouldn't mean anything to them.
[41:34.020 --> 41:35.220]  It would just be another acquisition.
[41:35.500 --> 41:39.200]  It would be, you know, a nightmare for so many people that we know.
[41:39.360 --> 41:41.220]  It would be such a monumental event.
[41:41.320 --> 41:42.300]  But, to them, it would be nothing.
[41:42.620 --> 41:44.560]  It would just be, you know, another investment.
[41:44.560 --> 41:49.880]  Another, you know, another series of financial figures to manage.
[41:50.020 --> 41:50.700]  Yeah, if they...
[41:50.700 --> 41:50.900]  That's it.
[41:51.020 --> 41:51.340]  That's all there.
[41:51.340 --> 41:53.260]  If they say, oh, New York doesn't have a country music station.
[41:53.380 --> 41:54.260]  We'll put one on.
[41:54.380 --> 41:55.020]  Oh, it didn't sell.
[41:55.060 --> 41:57.520]  Okay, we'll just change it to something else tomorrow.
[41:57.840 --> 42:00.900]  Doesn't matter if it had, you know, people wanting that music, you know, that minute.
[42:00.960 --> 42:02.100]  Ah, we'll change it to something else.
[42:02.260 --> 42:03.960]  Oh, wait, we'll change it to something else again.
[42:04.400 --> 42:06.200]  And it really doesn't matter.
[42:06.360 --> 42:16.220]  No, and if nobody called 212-209-2950, it would make it so much easier for them to just get away with this kind of thing because the support wouldn't be there.
[42:16.300 --> 42:17.500]  But we know the support is there.
[42:17.680 --> 42:23.580]  People come out in the streets when WBAI is in danger, and they rally to support us.
[42:23.700 --> 42:30.000]  They show up at various functions that we have, and very importantly, they call in when we ask for their help.
[42:30.080 --> 42:38.040]  And this is one of those times we ask for their help because, you know, we're on the air every single week, every single day, in fact, with different programming.
[42:39.500 --> 42:44.160]  And that programming exists because the fundraising makes it possible.
[42:44.340 --> 42:47.500]  That's why your call is so important now, because this is the fundraising period.
[42:47.720 --> 42:49.940]  That's why there's not commercials the rest of the year.
[42:50.080 --> 42:50.580]  Yeah, that's right.
[42:50.760 --> 42:51.280]  That's right.
[42:51.380 --> 42:54.520]  It's either this or commercials, and if it's commercials, then we can't do this.
[42:55.140 --> 42:55.740]  You know, we can't...
[42:55.740 --> 42:57.640]  By this, I don't mean just asking for money.
[42:57.760 --> 42:59.600]  I mean talking about the things that you talk about.
[42:59.940 --> 43:00.400]  Please call...
[43:00.400 --> 43:01.100]  212-209-2950.
[43:01.800 --> 43:02.900]  No calls on the line right now.
[43:03.000 --> 43:04.280]  Please fill up those phone banks.
[43:07.320 --> 43:17.240]  Now, we were talking about, you know, the Internet community, and certainly the comic book community is very, very strong.
[43:17.480 --> 43:31.600]  A lot of the slang terms on the Internet, a lot of the little abbreviations and, you know, little smiley faces, whatever, come out of science fiction fandom, and to a lesser extent of comic fandom, because science fiction fans were really involved in the Internet at the very,
[43:31.680 --> 43:32.240]  very beginning.
[43:32.420 --> 43:35.100]  You're saying science fiction fans created smiley faces?
[43:35.340 --> 43:40.600]  They created the way, the little, you know, the colon, dash, parenthesis.
[43:40.740 --> 43:41.320]  Yeah, parenthesis.
[43:41.800 --> 43:47.540]  Things like that was done in science fiction fanzines and appas before the Internet ever existed.
[43:47.760 --> 43:49.780]  Why would they do that in comic books?
[43:49.880 --> 43:51.200]  Because they weren't typing on the screen.
[43:51.220 --> 43:52.100]  No, they would do that in fanzines.
[43:52.280 --> 43:52.840]  In fanzines.
[43:53.000 --> 43:53.160]  Okay.
[43:53.560 --> 43:56.920]  A fanzine is a magazine by fans for fans.
[43:58.100 --> 44:01.520]  One of the parts of our premium comic book artists is a fanzine.
[44:01.980 --> 44:03.540]  It's a magazine by fans.
[44:03.580 --> 44:04.360]  It's for fans.
[44:04.560 --> 44:14.240]  Nobody else is going to want to read about, you know, the life of Sheldon Mayer, except for someone who's a fan of comics to see what kind of creativity this guy brought forth to this medium.
[44:14.820 --> 44:17.700]  And people were doing fanzines for years.
[44:18.180 --> 44:22.640]  The first app, Amateur Press Alliance, began in the 1890s.
[44:22.920 --> 44:25.920]  And the first science fiction app, it was in the 1930s.
[44:25.920 --> 44:35.560]  And so, they had little print abbreviations, such as the colon dash parentheses for a smile, and then variations of that.
[44:36.360 --> 44:39.460]  Initials like, you know, H-H-O-K, ha-ha, only kidding.
[44:41.480 --> 44:43.920]  Or some of the other really common initials.
[44:44.020 --> 44:44.200]  LOL.
[44:45.220 --> 44:46.660]  LOL for laughing out loud.
[44:46.680 --> 44:47.400]  Yes, laughing out loud.
[44:47.500 --> 44:52.140]  Yes, that was in fanzines at least in the 50s, probably before that.
[44:52.240 --> 44:53.040]  L-M-A-O.
[44:53.400 --> 44:55.000]  Well, let's not get into that so much.
[44:55.000 --> 45:03.060]  But if we could maybe trace the etymology of the smiley face, see what the earliest sighting of it was.
[45:03.180 --> 45:08.380]  My guess is that it would either be in a science fiction app or a science fiction fanzine.
[45:09.200 --> 45:09.900]  But when?
[45:09.960 --> 45:10.280]  What year?
[45:10.380 --> 45:10.680]  But when?
[45:11.220 --> 45:12.340]  I'm not sure.
[45:12.620 --> 45:16.160]  I know, you know, I started getting involved in this in the 70s.
[45:16.300 --> 45:16.940]  Typewriter pictures.
[45:17.940 --> 45:19.720]  And, you know, it was there then.
[45:20.500 --> 45:21.320]  Yeah, typewriter pictures.
[45:21.440 --> 45:21.820]  That's a great way of putting it.
[45:21.820 --> 45:28.100]  My point is, I'm sure there's a listener out there that has information right now, is bouncing up and down, saying, I know the answer to this, and wants to express it.
[45:28.120 --> 45:31.100]  Now, imagine if the show didn't exist, you couldn't express that.
[45:31.100 --> 45:39.960]  Well, and it's also, you know, these initials and these little, you know, typewriter plays, it's part of popular culture.
[45:40.560 --> 45:45.580]  And you don't really learn about popular culture in any other station but this one.
[45:45.920 --> 45:48.240]  You know, there's a little bit of it on NPR.
[45:48.540 --> 45:49.580]  And every once...
[45:49.580 --> 45:51.880]  I remember recently hearing a great...
[45:52.440 --> 45:53.720]  I shouldn't say a great interview.
[45:53.900 --> 45:56.540]  An interview with three great comic book creators.
[45:56.540 --> 45:59.700]  They spent an hour justifying why they were spending an hour.
[46:00.820 --> 46:02.540]  Let's talk about comic books.
[46:02.840 --> 46:03.240]  And it's like...
[46:03.240 --> 46:03.780]  No comics.
[46:04.040 --> 46:05.060]  They're defending themselves.
[46:05.400 --> 46:12.180]  They're best people in this industry right now, together, to exchange ideas and to tell stories.
[46:12.600 --> 46:14.740]  And they're not.
[46:14.780 --> 46:17.240]  They're not talking about the creative process.
[46:17.540 --> 46:20.800]  They're not talking about how they did some of the wonderful things they did.
[46:21.320 --> 46:24.020]  And I'm sitting there going, what are you doing?
[46:25.140 --> 46:28.000]  Five minutes to justify your hour is fine.
[46:28.140 --> 46:30.540]  But an hour to justify your hour?
[46:30.740 --> 46:31.840]  Give me a break.
[46:32.180 --> 46:38.820]  And I'm thinking, here's a show on comics going to way more cities than Nuff Said goes to.
[46:38.980 --> 46:41.280]  And it's not saying anything.
[46:41.700 --> 46:44.800]  And I was just crushed by it.
[46:44.900 --> 46:47.540]  Because one of those creators, I've tried to get on this show and he won't come on.
[46:47.700 --> 46:49.000]  And they had him.
[46:49.100 --> 46:50.540]  And he didn't say anything.
[46:51.980 --> 46:56.120]  It's your chance to say something about radio, about the kind of radio you like to hear.
[46:56.300 --> 46:57.320]  Please support this show.
[46:57.640 --> 47:00.580]  212-209-2950.
[47:00.860 --> 47:01.780]  Give us a call.
[47:02.020 --> 47:03.800]  And anything you can donate at this point would help.
[47:03.940 --> 47:08.320]  I mean, if you can donate $100 and get these great premiums and comic books that we're presenting.
[47:08.520 --> 47:09.640]  And comic books I've worked on.
[47:09.760 --> 47:10.360]  Things I've drawn.
[47:10.500 --> 47:11.920]  Ken's the editor on.
[47:12.160 --> 47:12.640]  Vitter's the Drew.
[47:12.800 --> 47:13.700]  And Green Ghost and Lotus.
[47:14.040 --> 47:15.820]  Which was written by Tom and Mary Beerbom.
[47:15.820 --> 47:17.620]  We were just up in Erie visiting them recently.
[47:18.280 --> 47:21.100]  And you get all that and sample comic books.
[47:21.200 --> 47:24.000]  And this is Tom and Mary Beerbom wrote for DC Comics.
[47:24.180 --> 47:26.520]  And they had to do what they were told to do.
[47:26.640 --> 47:27.340]  Speaking of corporations.
[47:27.420 --> 47:33.400]  And I heard from Tom's end some of the conversations with one of his editors.
[47:34.220 --> 47:36.260]  And it was not a pretty sight.
[47:37.480 --> 47:40.260]  Tom is one of the most mild-mannered people you'll ever meet.
[47:40.380 --> 47:42.840]  And you wouldn't know it by his half of the conversation.
[47:42.840 --> 47:47.320]  It was amazing about what they were telling him to do that had nothing to do with creativity.
[47:47.740 --> 47:51.200]  But when he worked for Evolution Comics, he got to write what he wanted.
[47:52.220 --> 47:54.260]  And all I did was...
[47:55.700 --> 47:58.740]  As editor, my job was to make sure it was fun.
[47:59.900 --> 48:01.520]  Exactly how we want it to be fun.
[48:01.540 --> 48:03.220]  That was his idea.
[48:03.640 --> 48:04.860]  That was his creativity.
[48:05.060 --> 48:06.120]  That was his freedom.
[48:06.540 --> 48:08.400]  Way more than he got from the mainstream.
[48:08.980 --> 48:12.860]  Of course, I couldn't say that if there was an advertisement from DC Comics.
[48:12.980 --> 48:14.160]  I simply couldn't put them down.
[48:14.880 --> 48:21.300]  One person who worked for Marvel said something in an APA which went to 50 people praising Watchmen.
[48:21.420 --> 48:23.140]  Which might be the best comic book of all time.
[48:23.840 --> 48:28.020]  And all of a sudden, she's censored by the editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics.
[48:28.160 --> 48:30.080]  You're not allowed to say anything good about the competitor.
[48:30.700 --> 48:37.960]  You know, and of course, what happens if you never say anything good about the competitor, only your own stuff, you have no credibility.
[48:38.800 --> 48:48.600]  If she says, this is good, no matter who publishes it, and she says, this is good, and it's by the company she works for, you may have a bit of a tendency to actually believe her.
[48:48.920 --> 48:50.480]  And not think she's being a shill.
[48:51.600 --> 48:54.160]  And, of course, the editor-in-chief didn't get it.
[48:54.440 --> 48:57.320]  You know, he just saw it as, wait a minute, we're in competition with these people.
[48:57.320 --> 48:58.640]  You're not allowed to say nice things.
[48:59.500 --> 49:04.780]  So that's the difference between independent thought and the same thing with independent radio.
[49:05.000 --> 49:07.040]  With independent radio, you have to support us.
[49:07.080 --> 49:08.360]  This is the time we need your help.
[49:08.740 --> 49:12.740]  People who haven't been helping out because of the coup, that's over now.
[49:12.740 --> 49:15.580]  It's back in the hands of the people, and you're part of that.
[49:15.620 --> 49:23.520]  In order to participate, we need you to call 212-209-2950 and donate money if you can help out.
[49:23.960 --> 49:25.300]  That's definitely what we need right now.
[49:25.300 --> 49:28.840]  I ran into a lot of people who just love the Ted Rawls show.
[49:29.260 --> 49:32.920]  And so now is a chance for you to get a copy of that book.
[49:33.020 --> 49:33.940]  It's a hardback book.
[49:34.100 --> 49:34.880]  It's a gorgeous book.
[49:34.940 --> 49:37.820]  And you'll get a whole bunch of other things in the package as well.
[49:37.920 --> 49:38.880]  For a $100 donation.
[49:38.880 --> 49:41.920]  WBM donated these copies to WBAI.
[49:42.360 --> 49:44.600]  Don't insult them by not taking them.
[49:45.980 --> 49:51.560]  They're going to kind of wonder, you know, if it's worth it being on the station and saying anything at all.
[49:51.700 --> 49:55.400]  So please call 212-209-2950.
[49:55.820 --> 49:58.980]  If you already have a copy of the book, I bet you you know somebody who'd like it.
[49:59.300 --> 50:02.480]  And you can buy it, and it's tax deductible, which is cool.
[50:02.540 --> 50:04.700]  How often do you get to buy comic books and it's tax deductible?
[50:05.400 --> 50:06.100]  That's pretty cool.
[50:06.440 --> 50:09.140]  I think we've gotten a bunch of pledges that haven't been added up yet.
[50:09.520 --> 50:11.080]  That number has not changed since we started.
[50:11.200 --> 50:12.140]  Oh, we're getting a call now.
[50:12.240 --> 50:12.920]  Thank you for that call.
[50:13.220 --> 50:14.260]  Yes, thanks for the call coming in.
[50:14.340 --> 50:16.320]  212-209-2950.
[50:16.640 --> 50:21.640]  Please continue with your calls and pledge as generously as possible because every call makes a difference.
[50:21.840 --> 50:25.700]  And I think that will be proven at the end of the night when we see how high the number can be.
[50:26.860 --> 50:27.760]  212-209-2950.
[50:28.420 --> 50:29.320]  Two calls on the line.
[50:29.480 --> 50:30.320]  Thank you for that call.
[50:30.500 --> 50:32.900]  And there's many people out there, so please show your support.
[50:32.900 --> 50:40.440]  Starting out talking about, you know, getting the website hijacked and I'm not feeling very optimistic about this either.
[50:41.700 --> 50:48.900]  It's, I mean, it's been real hell the last month, you know, watching it first.
[50:48.900 --> 50:54.740]  It's the frustration of trying to renew the website and not being allowed to, it seemed.
[50:55.020 --> 51:01.520]  You know, it's almost as if the company who registered had already received money from the people who ended up taking it over.
[51:03.580 --> 51:04.760]  Or threats, I don't know.
[51:04.780 --> 51:11.980]  You know, I don't know what I can do about it now and what I could do about it in the future if I tried this again and it happened again.
[51:12.600 --> 51:26.040]  You know, because my reward for doing a good website that had a lot of traffic and a lot of people bookmarking it and a lot of people linking to it was for somebody to go, ooh, I want that traffic and just grabbing it.
[51:27.240 --> 51:35.540]  I mean, Jim Freund said that there is a way to find out every single person who has linked to my site.
[51:35.540 --> 51:35.580]  Right.
[51:35.980 --> 51:37.420]  I'm seeing a nodding of the head.
[51:38.880 --> 51:44.300]  Yeah, you can just go to your summary stats and find out where they're coming from.
[51:44.320 --> 51:47.760]  It depends on which program you're using, but all that information is available.
[51:49.000 --> 51:50.140]  Depends if it's logged as well.
[51:50.300 --> 51:52.400]  Yeah, you have to have the site in order to be able to do that.
[51:52.780 --> 51:54.580]  Which is under somebody else's name.
[51:54.880 --> 51:54.980]  Oh, God.
[51:55.540 --> 51:56.900]  And the site's gone at this point.
[51:57.040 --> 52:01.200]  Well, we have a question here as to what exactly you mean by finding out who's linking to it.
[52:01.200 --> 52:06.200]  You can go to a search engine and discover who's linking to a given site.
[52:07.320 --> 52:12.400]  The code is... or the command to put in is in the current issue of 2600, for Google at least.
[52:13.260 --> 52:13.500]  Huh?
[52:14.320 --> 52:19.040]  If you go to Google and it's... link colon...
[52:19.040 --> 52:23.520]  I believe the syntax is link colon and then the URL of a site.
[52:23.720 --> 52:28.640]  And it will return, as it hits, it will return sites that link to you.
[52:28.640 --> 52:30.220]  So, rather than...
[52:30.580 --> 52:32.280]  And you can do this for all search engines?
[52:32.460 --> 52:34.240]  Or does it matter if Google's enough?
[52:34.520 --> 52:35.300]  Google's the only one.
[52:35.560 --> 52:37.560]  I know you can do it for Alta Vista in the old days.
[52:38.220 --> 52:40.580]  We have three calls on the line, so people like this kind of talk.
[52:40.880 --> 52:42.880]  So, 212-209-2950.
[52:42.980 --> 52:51.400]  One of the folks whose name I already forgot is pointing out the page in the latest 2600, which has a lovely picture of Ben Franklin on the card.
[52:51.440 --> 52:52.240]  It's an engraving, yeah.
[52:52.300 --> 52:53.160]  I think it's been stolen.
[52:53.680 --> 52:54.600]  I think it's money.
[52:55.540 --> 52:56.540]  The money was stolen.
[52:56.640 --> 52:57.300]  The picture was not.
[52:57.300 --> 53:01.520]  Well, I don't remember Ben Franklin crying on the money, although he probably should be.
[53:01.680 --> 53:03.200]  I was squeezing him very tight.
[53:03.340 --> 53:04.400]  I wouldn't be if that were him.
[53:05.800 --> 53:12.360]  Anyway, Stupid Google Trips is on page 10 and explains how to do just what you just talked about.
[53:13.160 --> 53:18.600]  So, at least I can go back to everybody who linked to me and tell them what the new link is.
[53:18.760 --> 53:19.160]  Warning, plot complication.
[53:19.160 --> 53:19.940]  Assuming that I bother with it.
[53:20.260 --> 53:24.900]  Well, the problem is you get the current links, so some of those people may want to link to naked women.
[53:26.060 --> 53:26.980]  Well, yeah.
[53:28.240 --> 53:30.600]  But no, Jim Freund said that there's some sort of a...
[53:30.600 --> 53:32.000]  He called it a time machine.
[53:32.600 --> 53:33.000]  Oh!
[53:33.260 --> 53:36.260]  Where you can go to what the internet looked like on a given day.
[53:36.380 --> 53:38.380]  So I can go to the day before this happened.
[53:38.380 --> 53:42.520]  It's a little tough to deal with, and I can't remember what the site is actually called.
[53:42.520 --> 53:43.560]  Web Archive, I believe.
[53:43.760 --> 53:44.620]  Yeah, that's it.
[53:44.700 --> 53:45.880]  I'm not sure if it's .org, .com.
[53:45.920 --> 53:47.360]  Their site is archive.org.
[53:48.600 --> 53:49.680]  Not webarchive.org?
[53:49.820 --> 53:50.960]  No, just archive.org.
[53:50.960 --> 53:55.180]  Well, I know if you do a search for the Wayback Machine, which is an email.
[53:55.180 --> 53:56.980]  That's what he mentioned, yes, he mentioned Wayback Machine.
[53:57.040 --> 54:08.100]  They stole the name from Sherman and Peabody, the classic cartoon on the Rocky and Bullwiggle shows, and it will list a given URL as it used to be every time they changed it.
[54:08.100 --> 54:18.500]  I know because I had a site that had difficulties and is now a porn site as well, and yes, I was looking at it.
[54:20.140 --> 54:21.140]  I feel left out.
[54:21.240 --> 54:22.660]  None of my sites are porn sites.
[54:22.920 --> 54:24.040]  Oh, we can hear that.
[54:24.140 --> 54:24.580]  They will be.
[54:24.680 --> 54:26.060]  You have a digital camera with you, right?
[54:26.840 --> 54:27.200]  Disrobing.
[54:28.060 --> 54:31.420]  Eventually, if you don't touch your site, eventually it'll turn into pornography.
[54:31.660 --> 54:32.960]  That's like the rule of the internet.
[54:33.080 --> 54:33.520]  If you leave it.
[54:34.240 --> 54:35.080]  If you don't keep an eye on it.
[54:35.100 --> 54:37.020]  Well, what percentage of the internet is now pornography?
[54:37.640 --> 54:38.880]  Oh, what, 95, 96?
[54:40.240 --> 54:40.960]  Yeah, 596.
[54:41.140 --> 54:43.620]  We get so much email that it's just so annoying.
[54:43.880 --> 54:47.620]  Well, I mean, yeah, I would say most of the spam is pornography.
[54:47.620 --> 54:47.940]  Monography.
[54:48.100 --> 54:48.780]  Russian wives.
[54:49.160 --> 54:50.400]  Yeah, or mortgages.
[54:50.880 --> 54:53.160]  You know, like I have a mortgage on my New York City apartment, right?
[54:53.280 --> 54:55.960]  Yeah, and they keep trying to get us to get insurance on our car that we don't own.
[54:56.100 --> 54:57.140]  You know, we don't have a car.
[54:57.220 --> 54:57.940]  We use Subways.
[54:58.100 --> 54:58.820]  You want to insure one of those?
[54:59.240 --> 55:00.180]  The Sixth Train, maybe?
[55:00.260 --> 55:00.720]  The Lexington?
[55:00.980 --> 55:01.100]  I don't know.
[55:02.060 --> 55:02.960]  Thank you for those calls.
[55:03.060 --> 55:04.060]  We've got three lines lit up.
[55:04.140 --> 55:06.580]  We need to line up all the lines to keep this station going.
[55:06.580 --> 55:09.380]  212-209-2950.
[55:09.660 --> 55:10.100]  Please call.
[55:10.400 --> 55:14.580]  Now, this is the first time that Nuff said and Off the Hook has collaborated, right?
[55:14.960 --> 55:15.780]  Other than...
[55:15.780 --> 55:16.980]  Well, publicly, yeah.
[55:17.260 --> 55:17.580]  Well, yeah.
[55:18.160 --> 55:19.100]  In front of the public.
[55:19.400 --> 55:19.960]  I mean, I...
[55:19.960 --> 55:24.960]  Well, when the coup was first over, I sat in on an Off the Hook show.
[55:25.160 --> 55:25.560]  Oh, that's right.
[55:25.740 --> 55:27.840]  And that was like the closest thing to a collaboration.
[55:28.060 --> 55:32.100]  But this is more like, you know, we're talking about the Internet and comics at the same time.
[55:32.640 --> 55:36.160]  Well, I had an idea just a few minutes ago, and I passed a note or two.
[55:36.700 --> 55:42.140]  But Eric, Emanuel, sorry, you were talking earlier about how I've blown something.
[55:42.740 --> 55:44.040]  How, how...
[55:44.040 --> 55:45.060]  Talking about pornography?
[55:45.320 --> 55:45.840]  No, no.
[55:46.640 --> 55:47.460]  Blown something?
[55:47.620 --> 55:47.860]  No.
[55:49.180 --> 55:50.660]  How, once you...
[55:50.660 --> 55:57.680]  On Freedom Downtime, once you explain to people the technical aspects, they get the underlying philosophical and political aspects.
[55:58.100 --> 56:02.400]  I was thinking, what better way than a comic book for much of this?
[56:04.680 --> 56:08.380]  Hacking comics, or DCSS comics.
[56:09.100 --> 56:09.960]  Words and pictures.
[56:10.720 --> 56:13.100]  Well, it's, you know, the possibilities are out there.
[56:13.300 --> 56:15.160]  I certainly can't draw, but...
[56:15.160 --> 56:17.260]  We did a story with Miranda where there was a computer involved.
[56:17.400 --> 56:17.820]  Remember Joseph?
[56:18.360 --> 56:21.640]  And he was helping her set up her computer, and that's when she jumped all over.
[56:21.720 --> 56:22.400]  It was kind of fun.
[56:22.460 --> 56:23.020]  He enjoyed it.
[56:23.140 --> 56:26.280]  But it was much more active than just having someone sitting there typing, you know.
[56:26.280 --> 56:27.440]  It was a comic.
[56:27.760 --> 56:29.140]  Yeah, she dragged him out of the floor a little bit.
[56:29.140 --> 56:29.860]  Yeah, this is something...
[56:29.860 --> 56:33.860]  Well, Mercy and I, I mean, you know, I mentioned I wrote X-rated comics.
[56:34.300 --> 56:35.000]  Well, this is...
[56:35.000 --> 56:41.220]  Actually, the only thing that I wrote that Mercy has drawn was this X-rated comic book called Miranda that appeared in Puritan magazine.
[56:42.600 --> 56:49.520]  And we have one of this guy sort of wanting Miranda to teach him, you know, life, because he spent all his time on the Internet.
[56:51.780 --> 56:56.720]  And at one point, somebody destroyed a computer, you know, a shot missed him and shot the computer.
[56:56.820 --> 57:00.280]  And he went nuts, because how dare you, you know, treat hardware that way.
[57:00.940 --> 57:01.880]  Well, that's where we feel.
[57:02.380 --> 57:02.540]  Yeah.
[57:03.440 --> 57:04.080]  You're monsters.
[57:04.460 --> 57:05.860]  And he beats them all up, and she's amazed.
[57:05.980 --> 57:08.960]  She's like, well, next time somebody's threatening you, just pretend they're after your computer.
[57:09.040 --> 57:09.740]  You'll be fine, you know.
[57:10.420 --> 57:11.800]  She tried to teach him karate and stuff.
[57:11.980 --> 57:13.360]  It's like, oh, he took the whole place out.
[57:14.640 --> 57:16.720]  So we've got quite a few donations since then.
[57:16.780 --> 57:17.680]  Thank you for those calls.
[57:18.340 --> 57:19.500]  Thank you for supporting WBAI.
[57:20.180 --> 57:20.620]  And Nuff Said.
[57:20.720 --> 57:23.540]  Well, we've got to almost 10% of what Off the Hook part is.
[57:25.200 --> 57:26.360]  212-209-2950.
[57:27.220 --> 57:30.920]  Please call and help out WBAI and Nuff Said and Off the Hook.
[57:31.060 --> 57:32.200]  And all these great programs.
[57:32.340 --> 57:35.400]  If you like Max Schmeade, he puts on the show.
[57:35.620 --> 57:36.680]  Golden Age of Radio.
[57:36.680 --> 57:38.020]  Golden Age of Radio, which is a lot of fun.
[57:38.480 --> 57:39.620]  Old radio programs.
[57:39.920 --> 57:41.360]  Yeah, things are going slow for him, too.
[57:41.460 --> 57:42.300]  But not this slow.
[57:43.780 --> 57:47.840]  But even if you listen to only one show, only this show, you should still give money.
[57:47.940 --> 57:51.520]  Because think of all the people that only listen to their one particular show.
[57:51.680 --> 58:00.680]  If they each gave $25, $50 to that show, it would push BAI into the next time frame.
[58:00.860 --> 58:09.420]  Right now, because of what happened during that coup we keep alluding to, this station was just about broke.
[58:10.440 --> 58:13.920]  And we are still not out of debt.
[58:14.440 --> 58:18.780]  We can now pay for the operations of the station, but we're still not out of debt.
[58:18.880 --> 58:22.100]  And we need your help in the worst way, or in the best way.
[58:23.140 --> 58:24.940]  A lot of people always say the worst way, right?
[58:25.060 --> 58:26.960]  If you need help, it should be the best way, yeah.
[58:28.140 --> 58:29.420]  The best thing you could help with.
[58:30.540 --> 58:35.620]  Like I said, we were just in Erie, Pennsylvania, and I actually found a comic book in a supermarket, which I haven't seen in years.
[58:35.740 --> 58:37.200]  They've all gone into these specialty shops.
[58:37.260 --> 58:38.140]  You can't find them anymore.
[58:38.340 --> 58:42.520]  But we actually saw a rack of comics in a, what was it, Giant Lion or something?
[58:42.520 --> 58:42.720]  Whatever.
[58:43.180 --> 58:43.920]  Giant food store.
[58:44.080 --> 58:47.400]  And it was like, you had to watch it when you're checking out, because the lady tried to put the orange juice right on top of it.
[58:47.420 --> 58:47.960]  I'm like, give me that!
[58:48.640 --> 58:49.380]  Don't get it wet!
[58:49.380 --> 58:51.120]  I have to put that in my purse, you know?
[58:52.140 --> 58:55.740]  But it was neat to be able to pick a comic book up anywhere, because they have gotten kind of hidden away.
[58:55.740 --> 58:56.820]  Which used to be the case.
[58:57.080 --> 58:58.920]  Yeah, I used to get them at the 7-Eleven in the pharmacy.
[58:59.180 --> 59:00.740]  They don't have 7-Elevens anymore?
[59:00.940 --> 59:01.160]  No.
[59:01.700 --> 59:03.100]  Occasionally, you'll find one here and there.
[59:03.240 --> 59:03.640]  They're rare.
[59:04.080 --> 59:05.680]  You have to go to comic book shops.
[59:06.200 --> 59:18.220]  Yeah, the enough said listeners, you know, know when they pop in in, you know, different little 7-Elevens to let us know, like the South Shore in Long Island seems to be a place you can get them, the Jersey Shore.
[00:02.270 --> 00:03.450]  It's still there.
[00:04.390 --> 00:08.210]  But for the most part, comics are found only in specialty stores.
[00:08.410 --> 00:09.930]  That may be a New York phenomenon.
[00:10.190 --> 00:15.070]  I mean, Erie is much... we're starting to get the borders of the heartland of America.
[00:15.070 --> 00:20.390]  You'd think that they would have it in mom-and-pop soda shops and little corner grocers out there.
[00:20.550 --> 00:21.570]  Not in the ice cream store.
[00:21.790 --> 00:22.790]  I've been to the ice cream store.
[00:22.910 --> 00:24.710]  Well, also, we've been to that store before.
[00:24.910 --> 00:25.470]  Yeah, we never saw it.
[00:25.470 --> 00:26.150]  And they were on comics.
[00:26.270 --> 00:27.330]  It's like, look, comic books.
[00:27.390 --> 00:28.410]  This is an experiment.
[00:29.070 --> 00:33.450]  The RKO video stores were doing comics for a while and then ended up getting rid of them.
[00:34.210 --> 00:41.510]  So I guess they figured that the amount of money they were making from the comics didn't justify the space they were taking up that could have been taken up with videos.
[00:42.350 --> 00:45.030]  So the RKO video stores kind of went out of business, didn't they?
[00:45.090 --> 00:46.170]  They should have kept their comics.
[00:48.810 --> 00:50.110]  212-209-2950.
[00:51.010 --> 00:51.790]  Same thing with the Warner stores.
[00:51.910 --> 00:53.150]  They'd sold their own comics.
[00:53.510 --> 00:56.290]  And on BAI, we don't have this kind of mentality, right?
[00:56.290 --> 01:01.250]  Where, you know, if the comic book show isn't bringing in a lot of money, you'll still hear it.
[01:01.330 --> 01:02.510]  But you should give money anyway.
[01:03.710 --> 01:04.570]  That's another idea.
[01:05.130 --> 01:05.770]  WBAI comics.
[01:06.710 --> 01:09.530]  You can see pictures of your favorite radio personalities.
[01:09.770 --> 01:10.050]  You want to scare them?
[01:10.330 --> 01:10.730]  Oh, okay.
[01:10.830 --> 01:11.170]  Never mind.
[01:12.030 --> 01:13.910]  A lot of us have a good face for radio.
[01:14.210 --> 01:15.170]  You have a good face for radio.
[01:15.270 --> 01:16.210]  I have a good face for radio.
[01:16.310 --> 01:18.050]  Emmanuel, he hasn't got a good face for anybody.
[01:18.450 --> 01:19.290]  It'd be fun to draw.
[01:19.410 --> 01:21.170]  Anne-Marie, because she has all these bracelets and things.
[01:21.290 --> 01:23.310]  She always has all these great bracelets and jingle jangles.
[01:23.670 --> 01:24.530]  It'd be fun to draw.
[01:26.950 --> 01:32.350]  And Ed Benji, when he was still part enough, said he drew the folks doing Cat Radio Cafe.
[01:32.730 --> 01:36.750]  And he drew strips of some of the drama that they do.
[01:37.290 --> 01:38.270]  Radio drama.
[01:38.830 --> 01:39.110]  Yeah.
[01:39.370 --> 01:40.690]  It is now 11 o'clock.
[01:40.850 --> 01:44.810]  You're listening to WBAI-FM 999.5 in New York City.
[01:45.570 --> 01:49.850]  This is normally the time for the rebroadcast of the WBAI evening news.
[01:49.850 --> 02:00.670]  Instead, you'll have a continuation of this crossover special between Off the Hook, which is usually 8 to 9, and Nuff Said, the comic book show, which is usually 10 to 11.
[02:00.670 --> 02:08.890]  So stay tuned for another hour, which will be followed by the Moorist Orthodox Radio Crusade at midnight and Weaponry at 1.30.
[02:08.890 --> 02:12.970]  So there's a lot of great programs, and all of which need your support.
[02:14.410 --> 02:15.890]  212-209-2950.
[02:16.630 --> 02:17.470]  Please call.
[02:17.950 --> 02:22.830]  It's the time when we need you to show your support for the radio station and these great programs.
[02:22.830 --> 02:43.290]  If you want to hear more of people's radio, regular people doing radio instead of corporate radio, where all you get is Coca-Cola commercials and people trying to sell you underwear or something, you have to call 212-209-2950 to get great radio shows in New York City and on the Internet at 2600.com.
[02:43.290 --> 02:49.770]  And let's take a break by giving you a sample of what you hear at midnight today.
[02:57.340 --> 02:58.180]  Moorish.
[02:59.720 --> 03:00.560]  Orthodox.
[03:02.180 --> 03:03.020]  Radio.
[03:04.700 --> 03:05.540]  Crusade.
[03:07.760 --> 03:09.760]  Anarchism for the global city.
[03:10.300 --> 03:13.340]  Radical environmentalism for the concrete jungle.
[03:14.160 --> 03:17.980]  Esoteric explorations of the secret history of rebel culture.
[03:18.540 --> 03:21.260]  The Moorish Orthodox Radio Crusade.
[03:21.500 --> 03:24.160]  Every Tuesday at midnight after the news.
[03:24.440 --> 03:31.280]  Only on listener-supported, non-commercial, WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
[03:32.640 --> 03:33.840]  Be there.
[03:46.640 --> 03:49.180]  Thursday evenings, 10 p.m.
[03:49.580 --> 03:50.280]  Soundtrack.
[03:50.660 --> 03:57.360]  Where we discuss films, review films, interview directors, actors, producers, composers.
[03:58.160 --> 03:59.780]  Everything about film.
[04:00.100 --> 04:04.040]  Here on listener-sponsored radio, WBAI.
[04:04.260 --> 04:06.820]  Thursday evenings, from 10 p.m.
[04:07.600 --> 04:08.740]  Till 11 p.m.
[04:09.640 --> 04:10.280]  Soundtrack.
[04:35.570 --> 04:36.690]  It's quite a tune.
[04:37.130 --> 04:41.170]  And soundtrack is in the same time slot as Nuff said, but two days later.
[04:41.470 --> 04:41.790]  Thursday.
[04:41.790 --> 04:41.990]  Thursday.
[04:44.330 --> 04:55.010]  So anyway, we were talking about websites getting hijacked and why I should continue to go on despite the fact that anything I do with computers seems to blow up in my face in one way or another.
[04:55.290 --> 04:55.490]  Ouch.
[04:55.990 --> 04:57.310]  You just want to talk about it, you know?
[04:58.210 --> 04:59.110]  It's war stories.
[04:59.230 --> 05:00.330]  I'd rather talk about comic books.
[05:00.430 --> 05:01.190]  Oh, yeah, that's true.
[05:01.330 --> 05:02.450]  But, you know, you...
[05:02.450 --> 05:02.810]  You know?
[05:03.130 --> 05:09.650]  I mean, I'd rather be, you know, here, you know, talking about, you know, somebody, you know, creating something or somebody drawing or writing.
[05:09.650 --> 05:13.930]  I'd even rather be doing an obituary to the great people who just passed away.
[05:13.950 --> 05:20.070]  But somebody who really likes comic books will find your site on the Internet and through that, find your radio show.
[05:20.310 --> 05:21.690]  See, that's the magic of the net.
[05:21.790 --> 05:25.430]  And they could be, you know, anywhere in the world and still be able to accomplish this.
[05:25.650 --> 05:28.010]  That's why it's essential to have a presence of some sort.
[05:30.070 --> 05:31.690]  How much... well...
[05:31.690 --> 05:33.310]  Mike, yes, you have...
[05:33.310 --> 05:37.130]  We have some people to thank and messages and other wonderful things.
[05:37.730 --> 05:43.470]  We have an anonymous donor who says to tell you that Frank called and says to register another site name.
[05:45.710 --> 05:50.390]  And we want to thank Daniel from Fairlawn, New Jersey.
[05:50.810 --> 05:51.810]  Thanks for that, Daniel.
[05:51.930 --> 05:52.570]  Thanks for the donation.
[05:52.810 --> 05:54.670]  And Heidi from New York, New York.
[05:54.790 --> 05:55.050]  Cool.
[05:57.010 --> 05:59.130]  And Wayne from Bill Ricker, Massachusetts.
[06:00.030 --> 06:00.710]  Wow, thank you.
[06:01.630 --> 06:03.710]  And Mac from New York, New York.
[06:03.950 --> 06:04.350]  Cool.
[06:04.930 --> 06:05.830]  Thank you for those donations.
[06:05.830 --> 06:10.790]  The first person not local becoming a member during Nuff Said that I didn't know personally.
[06:11.410 --> 06:12.390]  So, there you have it.
[06:12.570 --> 06:13.090]  Bill Ricker.
[06:13.730 --> 06:15.410]  Even though it's spelt wrong on the card.
[06:16.810 --> 06:18.350]  You know how Bill Ricker is spelled.
[06:20.230 --> 06:22.750]  Actually, that's probably the best argument I've had yet.
[06:22.750 --> 06:29.870]  I'm just thinking of the amount of grief that's been costing me and pretty much everything I do with computers.
[06:35.830 --> 06:37.550]  I take it to a mechanic and the noises stop.
[06:39.030 --> 06:41.370]  That's what happens with me with the computer.
[06:41.910 --> 06:45.110]  It won't be working and then somebody who knows what they're doing comes in.
[06:45.350 --> 06:46.970]  They don't even have to be in the room yet.
[06:47.090 --> 06:51.950]  They could just be entering the room and the computer will behave amazingly well.
[06:53.850 --> 06:54.730]  Well, don't worry.
[06:54.810 --> 06:55.570]  That won't happen with us.
[06:55.850 --> 06:58.350]  So, it's got to be me.
[06:59.370 --> 07:00.970]  212-209-2950.
[07:01.230 --> 07:02.570]  There's no calls on the line.
[07:02.590 --> 07:06.370]  We need to get more people calling in or some people calling in anyway.
[07:07.070 --> 07:08.550]  This is an expanded edition of Nuff Said.
[07:08.710 --> 07:10.170]  We're going till midnight.
[07:11.650 --> 07:17.410]  But, we can only continue to do things like this if we know the listeners are out there and we'll support things like this.
[07:17.510 --> 07:19.370]  212-209-2950.
[07:21.390 --> 07:22.390]  And please call.
[07:22.710 --> 07:24.010]  We have a...
[07:24.010 --> 07:26.310]  what I think is a wonderful, wonderful premium.
[07:27.090 --> 07:34.110]  We have the Sheldon Mayer and Alex Toth issue of Comic Book Artist which is wonderful all by itself.
[07:34.550 --> 07:37.490]  We have the preview of Rex Mundy.
[07:37.490 --> 07:40.570]  We have 8 comics that Mercy and I published.
[07:40.690 --> 07:45.790]  We've had several of those people doing those comics on the air so you know their creative process.
[07:46.250 --> 07:50.110]  Alexan Gandhatiyev who was part of the Lord of the Rings show a few months ago.
[07:50.330 --> 07:51.590]  He's one of our authors.
[07:52.210 --> 07:54.710]  You get all 8 first editions.
[07:56.350 --> 08:00.250]  And the highlight is a hardback book called To Afghanistan and Back.
[08:00.410 --> 08:05.750]  It's by Ted Rall who went to Afghanistan last November and December during the war.
[08:05.750 --> 08:07.590]  And he's been there several times before the war.
[08:07.770 --> 08:09.930]  That was his fifth trip to Central Asia.
[08:10.050 --> 08:10.890]  That's the thing that's so amazing.
[08:11.030 --> 08:13.850]  He went there other times because he just thought it was such an interesting place.
[08:13.970 --> 08:18.210]  So he has the view of it what it was like and the wars that were going on before the American...
[08:18.210 --> 08:19.290]  United States got involved in the war.
[08:19.450 --> 08:25.770]  He talks about the 90% unemployment rate, the $1.40 monthly income that is averaged there.
[08:26.030 --> 08:26.810]  One call on the line.
[08:26.910 --> 08:28.550]  212-209-2950.
[08:30.150 --> 08:32.990]  And it's just such great cartoons.
[08:33.290 --> 08:39.970]  I mean, when you had the visual impact in the written language working together as a team, it is pretty much unbeatable.
[08:40.150 --> 08:41.630]  The things you can say.
[08:42.900 --> 08:47.170]  That is why when we had the...
[08:48.490 --> 08:57.810]  Some of the political bosses of the 19th century and they did not like the political cartoonists going after them because they say, well, the voters don't read but they do look at pictures.
[08:58.350 --> 09:03.070]  And the power of the pictures brought down the...
[09:03.850 --> 09:05.610]  Oh boy, now I'm slipping the mind.
[09:06.670 --> 09:07.450]  Boss Tweed.
[09:07.510 --> 09:08.350]  Boss Tweed.
[09:08.350 --> 09:11.170]  Boss Tweed was brought down Tammany Hall.
[09:11.270 --> 09:12.750]  By a cartoonist.
[09:13.670 --> 09:21.870]  And literally, single-handedly, he left the country because of this and was recognized in England because of those same cartoons.
[09:22.670 --> 09:30.210]  And then ended up being extradited and tried and imprisoned in New York City where he got to overlook the city he used to be the boss of.
[09:30.770 --> 09:33.270]  And that was the power of cartoons.
[09:33.590 --> 09:34.470]  I didn't know that.
[09:34.590 --> 09:35.670]  That's really...
[09:35.670 --> 09:37.130]  I mean, yeah, you're right.
[09:37.130 --> 09:40.250]  Like, how can you escape from a cartoon indictment?
[09:40.430 --> 09:41.550]  You know, that's your face.
[09:42.630 --> 09:44.270]  And, you know, it's...
[09:44.810 --> 09:52.210]  I've talked to people who do X-rated comics and I'll be at a convention right across from somebody who does, you know, X-rated magazines, you know, in prose.
[09:52.710 --> 09:59.430]  And the person who's doing the prose, P-R-O-S-E, that's, you know, written language, no pictures, never gets into trouble.
[09:59.570 --> 10:03.470]  He gets into trouble because he's got pictures because the pictures are more powerful.
[10:03.470 --> 10:05.730]  So the censors are going to go after the pictures.
[10:05.730 --> 10:08.730]  And we've told plenty of horror stories like that on Nuffset over the years.
[10:09.470 --> 10:11.690]  You know, pictures are powerful.
[10:11.930 --> 10:14.370]  And that is why they can make such great statements.
[10:15.270 --> 10:25.970]  You know, when somebody does a story about a different country, having the picture in front of you brings you right into that country.
[10:26.150 --> 10:35.010]  So when Ted Royal is drawing Afghanistan, when he's drawing people being blown up by mines, it's not graphic violence, but it is graphic.
[10:35.330 --> 10:38.750]  And so you really get to feel, you know, what it's like for the kids there.
[10:39.170 --> 10:45.890]  Because, you know, where the adults know stay on the road because everything off the road is mine, kids run around.
[10:46.090 --> 10:46.970]  They're running around everywhere.
[10:47.330 --> 10:49.590]  And one of the kids ran around and...
[10:49.590 --> 10:49.810]  Boom.
[10:49.810 --> 10:51.390]  And it was raining kid.
[10:52.930 --> 10:53.410]  And...
[10:53.410 --> 10:57.670]  He talks about he went, he came in on an airplane and was taken by a car to a hotel.
[10:57.670 --> 10:59.390]  He woke up the next morning in the 14th century.
[10:59.550 --> 11:05.110]  People were plowing the fields without animals because cows cost too much to waste them having them plow the field.
[11:05.370 --> 11:08.890]  The Amish are more advanced than the farmers in Afghanistan.
[11:10.110 --> 11:13.910]  The Amish have horses and mules to do their plowing.
[11:14.170 --> 11:16.870]  The people in Afghanistan have their own two arms.
[11:17.050 --> 11:17.470]  That's it.
[11:18.850 --> 11:21.670]  You know, it's a rough place to live.
[11:22.070 --> 11:27.430]  There was one particular day where all the journalists tend to stay in one area.
[11:28.030 --> 11:35.890]  And you hire bodyguards because the only way they pretty much get anything done including eating is using American money.
[11:36.030 --> 11:40.570]  So everybody is carrying a lot of American money secreted on their person in some way.
[11:40.670 --> 11:45.270]  So you hire a bodyguard, right, so that somebody doesn't kill you for your money.
[11:45.430 --> 11:48.590]  Of course, sometimes the bodyguards will kill you for your money.
[11:49.730 --> 11:53.170]  And there was one day when Ted was in the room.
[11:53.710 --> 11:55.990]  I keep wanting to call it a hotel room but it wasn't really.
[11:56.330 --> 12:00.090]  Anyway, it was a room and somebody's banging on the door at 3 in the morning.
[12:00.970 --> 12:04.890]  And he's like, you know, there's no reason for me to get up at 3 in the morning.
[12:05.110 --> 12:08.310]  You know, whatever they need, I couldn't take care of it anyway.
[12:08.810 --> 12:09.910]  So he didn't get up.
[12:10.630 --> 12:22.090]  It turns out that somebody went to everybody's door and finally this Swedish reporter answered the door and the first thing they did was shoot him.
[12:22.730 --> 12:28.870]  And they would have shot the rest of the people in the room but they managed to successfully beg for their lives because all they really wanted was the money.
[12:29.230 --> 12:32.570]  But life is so cheap there that you just shoot him.
[12:32.650 --> 12:34.290]  Don't say, I'm robbing you.
[12:34.410 --> 12:35.170]  Just shoot him.
[12:35.650 --> 12:36.670]  It doesn't matter.
[12:37.050 --> 12:42.070]  And he was one of the three people who didn't come back of the 35 Ted entered Afghanistan with.
[12:44.090 --> 12:46.770]  So it's a very powerful book.
[12:46.910 --> 12:48.770]  It's a very eye-opening sort of piece of literature.
[12:48.770 --> 12:49.650]  It's a hardback.
[12:50.510 --> 12:54.090]  We had an hour with Ted two weeks ago and it was just a wonderful hour.
[12:54.110 --> 12:54.490]  It flew by.
[12:54.670 --> 12:56.490]  It was amazing to hear him talk about this.
[12:56.610 --> 13:02.630]  It was kind of neat because we could have gone another hour with no trouble at all and he was just going on and on.
[13:02.730 --> 13:05.130]  We were still chatting with him after the show.
[13:05.130 --> 13:10.830]  But if you want to keep hearing programming like this, you have to support WBI now at 212-209-2950.
[13:11.330 --> 13:15.050]  And if you send a $100 donation, you can get this book and many others.
[13:15.790 --> 13:22.350]  When I worked at the post office, I was also active with energy issues with the Shad Alliance.
[13:22.630 --> 13:28.610]  And when the people at the post office would hear me talk about politics and energy issues, they get very uncomfortable.
[13:28.910 --> 13:30.530]  And then I would mention that I was into comic books.
[13:30.930 --> 13:34.170]  And then they suddenly didn't feel so nervous around me.
[13:35.570 --> 13:42.630]  And it's interesting because some of the things you can say in comics, usually in independent comics, but the mainstream does it sometimes too.
[13:42.710 --> 13:43.830]  And when they do, we give them credit.
[13:44.710 --> 13:48.570]  We've been talking to a lot of people about putting your comic books on the net or on the web.
[13:49.010 --> 13:56.590]  Because by the time you print a comic book, you've got to get it to the engraver, you've got to get it printed, you've got to produce it, you've got to ship it.
[13:56.750 --> 14:00.950]  There's this massive paper that grows and grows and grows to get several thousand copies of this.
[14:00.950 --> 14:02.130]  Then you've got to distribute it.
[14:02.370 --> 14:06.410]  You've got to get somebody to take it to the store and set it up and make sure it gets into the store.
[14:06.570 --> 14:07.270]  Somebody has to buy it.
[14:07.270 --> 14:09.070]  And if they don't, you're stuck with those copies.
[14:09.350 --> 14:10.230]  You have boxes of these things.
[14:10.310 --> 14:12.610]  You have insulation in your spare room.
[14:12.770 --> 14:23.050]  But if you put it on the internet, for the price of getting a scanner so you can put the artwork in and getting a nice computer set up, the first issue, okay, but by the second issue, it's out there.
[14:23.150 --> 14:23.790]  People are seeing it.
[14:23.890 --> 14:24.610]  You're getting feedback.
[14:24.750 --> 14:26.110]  And you never lose money again.
[14:26.330 --> 14:29.930]  You won't lose any more money because you've already got the system and now you're just putting it out there.
[14:30.050 --> 14:30.990]  People are finding it.
[14:31.050 --> 14:31.710]  You're getting links to it.
[14:31.790 --> 14:36.450]  And if it's popular enough, then you do the Dead Tree Edition because it's worth it because people really want it.
[14:36.530 --> 14:38.790]  Almost all independent comics lose money.
[14:39.090 --> 14:39.310]  Yeah.
[14:39.590 --> 14:41.310]  And they do them anyway.
[14:41.750 --> 14:45.390]  People have to do them because it's an expression of what they want to say and they want people to read this.
[14:45.470 --> 14:46.330]  They want to get feedback.
[14:46.590 --> 14:48.490]  And if it's on the net, you're going to get feedback.
[14:48.610 --> 14:49.530]  People are going to respond.
[14:49.530 --> 14:50.730]  You know, you can ask for comments.
[14:50.870 --> 14:52.270]  You can email people.
[14:52.430 --> 14:53.550]  And people will see it.
[14:53.650 --> 14:54.470]  People will find these.
[14:54.590 --> 14:57.250]  You know, they look up Comic Strip Barbarian and they find out you've done it.
[14:57.270 --> 14:59.470]  Or Comic Strip, you know, Hacker.
[14:59.690 --> 15:07.210]  Which was one of my plans with the Nuff Said site was to put the Evolution comics on there so people can see them.
[15:07.610 --> 15:08.390]  It's a wider audience.
[15:08.390 --> 15:11.470]  Yeah, we could rebuild the fan base for our comics.
[15:12.350 --> 15:16.390]  And hopefully get more pledges when people realize, hey, I can get these.
[15:16.790 --> 15:18.150]  Am I becoming a member of the B.A.I.?
[15:18.150 --> 15:22.770]  Kind of a microcosm of the whole radio station, the comic book world.
[15:23.170 --> 15:24.350]  I guess it's probably the other way around.
[15:24.470 --> 15:31.370]  But I guess just radio in general, non-commercial radio, doesn't make any money.
[15:31.370 --> 15:33.790]  It's a lot of effort to go into it.
[15:34.030 --> 15:40.150]  But you do it because you want people to be able to see what you're creating, what you're a part of.
[15:40.170 --> 15:41.470]  And you want them to be a part of it as well.
[15:41.550 --> 15:44.210]  I think there's a lot of crossover between the communities.
[15:44.210 --> 15:48.930]  And that's why if you support independent comics, you really have to support this radio station.
[15:49.230 --> 15:56.290]  Unless you can point to some other independent comic programs that are on, you know, some of the other stations around here.
[15:56.290 --> 15:57.310]  I don't think there are any.
[15:57.470 --> 15:58.350]  I'd like to know if there are.
[16:00.230 --> 16:03.650]  If you want to see this continue, though, you really have to support the show.
[16:04.250 --> 16:05.690]  There's no other way around it.
[16:05.690 --> 16:11.390]  I just found out that there is an hour-long radio show about comics in Canada.
[16:11.730 --> 16:14.450]  And it started relatively recently.
[16:15.050 --> 16:15.610]  Yeah, well...
[16:15.610 --> 16:22.810]  But most, you know, anytime there is, you know, comics on the radio or cable access television, it's usually somebody reviewing comics.
[16:23.390 --> 16:31.250]  You don't get the in-depth view of the creative process and how writers and artists think, which is quite amazing.
[16:31.630 --> 16:34.610]  Whether what they're doing, it's commercial art, so they're selling it.
[16:34.610 --> 16:35.850]  But how much is commercial?
[16:35.970 --> 16:36.570]  How much is art?
[16:36.910 --> 16:38.070]  Everybody has different answers.
[16:38.250 --> 16:40.370]  And they're not always the answers you expect.
[16:41.450 --> 16:43.530]  212-209-2950.
[16:43.630 --> 16:45.490]  Get those phone calls coming in.
[16:45.610 --> 16:49.570]  Support independent voices in all different mediums.
[16:49.750 --> 16:51.230]  Emmanuel's not getting paid for this.
[16:51.370 --> 16:52.670]  He's working overtime today.
[16:52.830 --> 16:54.310]  Instead of one hour, he's here five.
[16:54.610 --> 16:55.190]  It's showing.
[16:55.410 --> 16:55.630]  It's showing.
[16:55.850 --> 17:00.050]  There was a dot-com company that was set up at one point for independent music and radio and comics.
[17:00.190 --> 17:01.770]  And, of course, all the dot-coms disappeared.
[17:02.250 --> 17:04.670]  And so there isn't a lot of places to hear about this stuff.
[17:04.790 --> 17:08.250]  But if you put your support behind WVI, this is getting the news out.
[17:08.570 --> 17:12.830]  People are finding out more about independent comics and other forms of expression.
[17:12.970 --> 17:19.710]  You're probably thinking of IndiePlanet, which was supposed to be a forum for independent creativity and actually just wanted to make their own movies.
[17:20.690 --> 17:22.130]  We have zero calls.
[17:22.390 --> 17:24.130]  Can it be we're reaching absolutely nobody out?
[17:24.170 --> 17:24.850]  Does nobody agree?
[17:24.850 --> 17:25.370]  The tally went up.
[17:25.490 --> 17:25.850]  Thank you.
[17:25.990 --> 17:27.270]  Does nobody agree with what we're saying?
[17:27.390 --> 17:28.630]  Maybe we're wrong.
[17:28.630 --> 17:31.470]  Maybe, you know, this is not the way to go.
[17:31.610 --> 17:34.070]  Maybe, you know, the corporate mentality is the only mentality.
[17:34.210 --> 17:36.070]  And we'd rather have endless McDonald's commercials.
[17:36.310 --> 17:36.550]  Yeah.
[17:36.970 --> 17:38.170]  Well, people support that.
[17:38.270 --> 17:43.990]  You know, if there's a commercial station and we're telling people to call up for a McDonald's sweepstake or something like that, well, I bet the phones would light up.
[17:44.070 --> 17:45.230]  What does that tell us, you know?
[17:45.490 --> 17:46.150]  That's true.
[17:46.570 --> 17:47.930]  We're giving away our minds.
[17:48.030 --> 17:50.170]  We're giving away the, you know, the spectrum.
[17:50.690 --> 17:52.690]  We're allowing them to run things.
[17:52.990 --> 17:53.950]  We're appealing to people who think.
[17:54.130 --> 17:56.570]  And that automatically limits our audience a great deal.
[17:56.570 --> 17:59.570]  Well, think about calling 212-209-2950.
[17:59.930 --> 18:02.130]  It's, you know, it's not rocket science.
[18:02.490 --> 18:04.770]  Basically, you know, support the radio station.
[18:04.870 --> 18:06.390]  The radio station will continue to be here.
[18:07.090 --> 18:07.970]  It's essential.
[18:08.150 --> 18:10.210]  212-209-2950.
[18:11.070 --> 18:14.090]  There have to be people out there that understand this.
[18:14.930 --> 18:16.710]  People who want to hear more about this.
[18:17.030 --> 18:22.050]  Or, like, we have all these interviews with artists and writers who talk about the craft of comic books.
[18:22.210 --> 18:23.610]  There aren't that many books about that.
[18:23.690 --> 18:25.270]  There aren't that many schools about that.
[18:25.270 --> 18:29.910]  So here you've got a radio station you can tune into Tuesday nights, every week.
[18:30.210 --> 18:32.350]  And you can even call in and talk to these people.
[18:32.430 --> 18:33.990]  You can't do that when there's a television show.
[18:34.330 --> 18:35.390]  There's Stanley on TV.
[18:35.590 --> 18:35.890]  So what?
[18:35.990 --> 18:38.450]  But you can't call up and actually say something to him.
[18:38.590 --> 18:41.370]  You can't communicate with the radio show.
[18:41.510 --> 18:43.310]  Like, you can communicate with the radio show.
[18:43.370 --> 18:44.550]  Like, you can't communicate with TV.
[18:44.670 --> 18:45.490]  That's out of your hands.
[18:45.610 --> 18:48.270]  They just do whatever they want and you just want to go along for the ride.
[18:48.430 --> 18:49.570]  This is participation.
[18:50.030 --> 18:51.090]  This is like democracy.
[18:51.110 --> 18:52.050]  You have to participate.
[18:52.050 --> 18:59.210]  We need you to call 212-209-2950 and participate in freedom of speech and freedom of comics.
[18:59.390 --> 19:00.250]  Speech about comics.
[19:00.390 --> 19:04.210]  I mean, I know we've all been harassed at certain times because of our choice of reading material.
[19:04.310 --> 19:05.950]  But I always say, what do you read?
[19:06.070 --> 19:06.750]  TV Guide?
[19:06.990 --> 19:08.050]  That's the only thing you read?
[19:08.170 --> 19:08.710]  You don't read?
[19:08.930 --> 19:11.050]  And you see all these spelling mistakes on things.
[19:11.150 --> 19:13.270]  It's like, there's people who can't read out there.
[19:13.270 --> 19:14.030]  It's really sad.
[19:14.210 --> 19:16.730]  But it's also like, I read comic books, but I'm reading.
[19:17.150 --> 19:18.350]  And I also read books.
[19:18.470 --> 19:19.410]  I don't just read comics.
[19:19.530 --> 19:19.670]  Yeah.
[19:19.830 --> 19:22.670]  Almost everybody I know who reads a lot of comics reads a lot of everything.
[19:23.250 --> 19:23.550]  Yeah.
[19:23.670 --> 19:24.870]  You know, we're print junkies.
[19:25.090 --> 19:25.850]  Yeah, that's right.
[19:25.890 --> 19:27.010]  We're print junkies.
[19:27.010 --> 19:27.390]  I like to read.
[19:28.410 --> 19:31.230]  And the thing is that the comics appeal to the imagination.
[19:31.570 --> 19:33.810]  In fact, you need the imagination to read them.
[19:34.320 --> 19:36.610]  And you don't even think about it because it's automatic.
[19:36.950 --> 19:47.170]  But when you look at a panel and you have two people talking and the body language doesn't necessarily may precede or follow what the dialogue is, that did not happen in one instant.
[19:47.390 --> 19:51.450]  That took place over several seconds, several minutes, or whatever.
[19:51.710 --> 19:56.450]  And the next panel could take place a split second later or a year later, whatever.
[19:56.810 --> 20:02.830]  But the time that is played with in comics is different than any other medium.
[20:02.830 --> 20:04.590]  And you interpret that.
[20:04.890 --> 20:14.350]  You don't think about it, but you're actually participating in the comic book as you read it by being aware of what kind of time is involved.
[20:14.550 --> 20:16.370]  When you read a book, it's all linear.
[20:16.950 --> 20:18.370]  Everything follows each other.
[20:18.950 --> 20:21.850]  If he's doing anything with time, he tells you.
[20:22.610 --> 20:24.270]  It's the same thing with a movie, of course.
[20:24.450 --> 20:28.270]  It's just laid out in there and you just sit there and you absorb it.
[20:28.370 --> 20:32.630]  You don't actually participate in watching this movie.
[20:33.590 --> 20:35.630]  You just watch it and it goes into you.
[20:35.810 --> 20:38.290]  With the comic book, you have to constantly interpret.
[20:38.570 --> 20:41.290]  You know, who is saying these things in these balloons?
[20:41.590 --> 20:44.130]  You have to figure that out, but you do it instantly.
[20:44.130 --> 20:47.910]  You do it automatically because you've done it, you know, a long time.
[20:48.550 --> 20:58.390]  People from different countries have different ways of portraying time and they actually have trouble reading comic books from different countries if the way they do that is that differently.
[21:00.270 --> 21:04.970]  And it's that type of participation that I think is part of the strength of comics.
[21:05.030 --> 21:19.790]  When you have a good writer and artist who knows how to exploit it and realizes that you are thinking as you read this and he's going to use the fact that you're thinking and he's going to use whatever prejudices you have about life and play with that as well.
[21:19.790 --> 21:27.510]  So please call 212-209-2950 and pledge some monetary support for WBAI, enough said.
[21:28.230 --> 21:36.170]  $50 for a regular membership and that'll get you a membership card to BAI, which is good at several museums around the city.
[21:36.350 --> 21:42.790]  And now that we have a development coordinator again, I suspect it'll be good at several more.
[21:45.390 --> 22:00.430]  And you'll be able to have a part in the local advisory boards, you'll actually have a say in how WBAI and all five Pacifica stations is run by who you vote for on the local advisory board, who you send to the Pacifica Foundation.
[22:00.430 --> 22:01.290]  Oh, we just got a call.
[22:01.390 --> 22:02.170]  Thank you for that call.
[22:02.510 --> 22:03.930]  We need more people to call.
[22:04.150 --> 22:07.030]  You have a say in how a station is run.
[22:07.290 --> 22:12.690]  Can you imagine any commercial station allowing you to say, well, this is the DJs.
[22:12.690 --> 22:14.470]  We have these are the songs we have.
[22:14.670 --> 22:15.970]  This is, you know, how we're going to do things.
[22:16.170 --> 22:17.630]  You don't get a say.
[22:17.830 --> 22:24.390]  You can buy all the products they advertise and you still do not have a say and how that station is run.
[22:24.730 --> 22:27.570]  But here you do through the local advisory board.
[22:28.690 --> 22:30.370]  212-209-2950.
[22:30.370 --> 22:30.950]  But not everybody.
[22:30.950 --> 22:34.330]  You have to be a member of the station to have that say.
[22:34.850 --> 22:46.910]  And you also have a say by making the phone call and pledging support to the station, becoming one of the investors of WBAI, one of the people that believes that we have a future, that we are important.
[22:47.210 --> 22:52.510]  Right now, we are at $495, which is a mere pittance to any commercial radio station.
[22:52.710 --> 22:54.130]  To us, it's a lot.
[22:54.430 --> 22:57.250]  And I'm sure to you as an individual, it's also a lot.
[22:57.570 --> 23:02.430]  It only takes one person to bring that $495 up over $500, you know?
[23:02.530 --> 23:04.330]  And then that's another hurdle we've reached.
[23:04.330 --> 23:06.790]  And a few more people can bring that up even further.
[23:07.810 --> 23:08.890]  Everybody makes a difference.
[23:09.050 --> 23:10.510]  I think that's the theme of this place.
[23:11.150 --> 23:13.130]  So one phone call makes a difference.
[23:13.270 --> 23:15.170]  Two phone calls makes even more of a difference.
[23:15.310 --> 23:16.830]  Five phone calls, still more.
[23:17.450 --> 23:18.790]  You have that power.
[23:18.970 --> 23:20.330]  No place else can I think of.
[23:20.470 --> 23:24.170]  And, you know, listen to a commercial station and they'll say, we'll take caller number 73.
[23:24.550 --> 23:26.010]  And they'll get 73 callers.
[23:26.130 --> 23:27.370]  But, you know, those people...
[23:27.370 --> 23:29.310]  Except that they lie when they say they took the 73rd.
[23:29.350 --> 23:30.570]  They took the 5th or 6th.
[23:30.630 --> 23:30.990]  Maybe so.
[23:31.030 --> 23:31.470]  They didn't feel like it.
[23:31.570 --> 23:31.970]  Maybe so.
[23:31.970 --> 23:36.510]  But I think people who listen to WBAI don't have us on as background music.
[23:36.730 --> 23:38.970]  You know, they're actually listening to what's being said.
[23:39.110 --> 23:43.610]  So if someone says something on BAI, it's more likely to be heard, to be appreciated, to be understood.
[23:43.830 --> 23:45.510]  And we feel the same way about our listeners.
[23:45.550 --> 23:48.250]  We appreciate them and they mean something.
[23:48.430 --> 23:50.470]  212-209-2950.
[23:50.750 --> 23:51.650]  Please show your support.
[23:51.830 --> 23:52.570]  Help us grow.
[23:52.910 --> 23:54.150]  I want to thank David D.
[23:54.390 --> 23:55.850]  for sending in a donation.
[23:55.950 --> 23:56.650]  Thank you for that.
[23:56.770 --> 23:57.090]  That's great.
[23:57.090 --> 24:00.670]  Also, some secret anonymous calls who don't want us to know their name.
[24:00.970 --> 24:01.630]  Anonymous calls.
[24:01.790 --> 24:02.730]  Thank you for those donations.
[24:02.870 --> 24:03.630]  Anonymous persons.
[24:03.850 --> 24:04.490]  Probably the shadow.
[24:04.730 --> 24:06.810]  People are afraid to be known in the comic book world.
[24:06.970 --> 24:07.230]  It's Bruce Wayne.
[24:07.870 --> 24:11.410]  I'm going to read another one of Ted's cartoons.
[24:11.410 --> 24:13.710]  His little statement about what's going on.
[24:13.870 --> 24:17.590]  It's got a nice, you know, blonde-haired guy being a newscaster.
[24:17.830 --> 24:19.450]  Today in the war, some stuff happened.
[24:19.830 --> 24:21.010]  They're not saying what.
[24:21.210 --> 24:23.690]  But whatever it was, may or may not have been a big deal.
[24:24.310 --> 24:24.910]  Coming up.
[24:24.910 --> 24:28.950]  If certain things were to happen, would it matter that we are never going to hear about it?
[24:30.110 --> 24:31.610]  And the caption across the screen.
[24:31.770 --> 24:32.690]  Next, what's next?
[24:32.870 --> 24:34.130]  You have two people watching.
[24:34.370 --> 24:36.410]  One person goes, Bush's war is stupid.
[24:36.590 --> 24:39.430]  And the other one is, how can you be against something you don't know anything about?
[24:42.010 --> 24:44.190]  So we got a note from Tally saying, say the number.
[24:44.270 --> 24:45.270]  I think we've been saying it.
[24:45.510 --> 24:46.230]  Well, that's okay.
[24:46.370 --> 24:47.030]  Let's say it again.
[24:47.250 --> 24:48.730]  2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[24:48.790 --> 24:49.770]  Maybe we're saying the wrong number.
[24:49.870 --> 24:50.330]  Is that possible?
[24:51.730 --> 24:53.450]  Remember the time we gave the wrong number out of it?
[24:53.450 --> 24:58.650]  Why doesn't everyone call 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0 and tell us if it's the wrong number?
[24:58.870 --> 24:59.110]  Yeah, please.
[24:59.470 --> 25:00.010]  Yeah, that's it.
[25:00.190 --> 25:03.710]  And if that's your phone number, please call us and we'll make the correction.
[25:04.570 --> 25:06.430]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[25:06.570 --> 25:07.250]  I think that's our number.
[25:07.450 --> 25:08.470]  2-9-50.
[25:08.990 --> 25:13.130]  If you give out the other number, the call-in line, watch that light up.
[25:13.130 --> 25:16.650]  Yeah, they like to call in, but if you're asking for money, sometimes it's tougher.
[25:17.450 --> 25:18.630]  I mean, do you want to take phone calls?
[25:18.650 --> 25:19.130]  Yeah, why not?
[25:19.290 --> 25:21.790]  We can take phone calls and you'll see how many people are really out there.
[25:21.890 --> 25:23.590]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-0.
[25:24.350 --> 25:24.710]  All right?
[25:24.870 --> 25:25.770]  That's the on-air line.
[25:25.910 --> 25:26.370]  The on-air.
[25:26.430 --> 25:27.690]  Has it started lighting up yet?
[25:28.210 --> 25:28.910]  No, it hasn't.
[25:29.010 --> 25:29.950]  What a surprise.
[25:30.710 --> 25:31.550]  People have to dial.
[25:31.710 --> 25:37.430]  I have noticed that the minute you say, we're going to take phone calls, you don't have to get the number out when people start calling.
[25:37.550 --> 25:39.410]  Yeah, that's because there are people that have it programmed in their head.
[25:40.050 --> 25:46.050]  Yeah, because most of the shows on WBAI do take phone calls.
[25:46.730 --> 25:49.730]  Call up, let us know if you want to hear about hacking comics.
[25:51.510 --> 25:52.490]  There's no phone calls.
[25:52.690 --> 25:53.630]  There is no phone calls.
[25:53.710 --> 25:54.570]  That means there's nobody out there.
[25:54.650 --> 25:56.150]  I guess there's no future for hacking comics.
[25:56.410 --> 25:56.790]  Aww.
[25:58.250 --> 26:00.450]  I don't know, I think a lot of people can't hack comics.
[26:02.210 --> 26:03.810]  I think it's about horse racing.
[26:04.950 --> 26:05.390]  Hacking.
[26:05.790 --> 26:06.090]  Hacking?
[26:06.230 --> 26:06.990]  Is that about horse racing?
[26:07.150 --> 26:07.390]  Yeah.
[26:07.390 --> 26:09.030]  They're driving a horse-drawn cow.
[26:09.550 --> 26:10.090]  That's right.
[26:10.450 --> 26:10.810]  Hacks.
[26:11.350 --> 26:12.850]  Oh, is that where it comes from?
[26:13.010 --> 26:14.490]  When you call somebody a hack writer?
[26:14.890 --> 26:15.130]  Yeah.
[26:15.410 --> 26:15.630]  Yes.
[26:15.830 --> 26:16.590]  What does that mean?
[26:16.630 --> 26:19.110]  Well, there is a phone call there, so we have at least one person.
[26:19.350 --> 26:21.090]  You're essentially flogging a dead horse.
[26:21.230 --> 26:23.250]  212-209-295-0, make a pledge.
[26:23.450 --> 26:24.670]  2-900, call in.
[26:25.570 --> 26:26.790]  And you are on the air.
[26:27.250 --> 26:28.130]  Yes, good morning.
[26:28.310 --> 26:28.710]  Good morning.
[26:29.090 --> 26:33.370]  Is that a polite way to say, or, yeah, I guess it's almost morning.
[26:33.510 --> 26:34.930]  Wait a minute, no, it's not morning.
[26:34.930 --> 26:38.850]  No, it's not morning, but anyway, that's not, you didn't call us to tell us whether it was morning or not.
[26:39.150 --> 26:40.150]  You called to complain.
[26:40.310 --> 26:40.830]  Yes, that's exactly right.
[26:40.830 --> 26:43.770]  Right, and I personally, I made the point to you...
[26:43.770 --> 26:46.230]  Is it the way I said two or nine?
[26:46.230 --> 27:11.190]  I made the point that the fact that comics are in the daily papers, you know, the daily news and news day, um, is such that, um, if you care about comic books and the comic book industry, then, uh, a more appreciation of, uh, the, uh, comics in the, uh,
[27:11.270 --> 27:26.030]  comic strips in the daily paper, it would help to, uh, you know, admire them for whatever one can admire, or criticize them for what criticalness, uh, you could bring forth to them, instead of saying they're getting too small.
[27:26.470 --> 27:27.570]  I was just going to say that.
[27:27.810 --> 27:28.850]  Well, it's not true.
[27:29.410 --> 27:30.370]  It's not true.
[27:30.650 --> 27:30.850]  Size matters.
[27:30.850 --> 27:34.610]  Because you can color Xerox, uh, them up in size, so, uh, you know...
[27:34.610 --> 27:35.890]  Oh, you can get them on the internet.
[27:36.290 --> 27:36.970]  You can get them on the internet.
[27:37.410 --> 27:38.130]  Well, it's...
[27:38.130 --> 27:38.850]  Muts is in books, too.
[27:38.890 --> 27:39.850]  And they take too much too long.
[27:40.010 --> 27:41.610]  I like getting mutts in books, and I can read a whole bunch of them.
[27:41.610 --> 27:43.170]  Okay, let me, let me grab some more calls.
[27:43.450 --> 27:45.150]  Yeah, well, you don't want to answer that.
[27:49.350 --> 27:53.350]  And we'll answer, we'll give all the time, and I don't want to be as repetitive as commercial radio.
[27:53.750 --> 27:54.990]  2950, please call.
[27:55.170 --> 27:56.630]  Help WVAI to survive.
[27:56.790 --> 27:58.890]  212-209-2900, you're on the air.
[27:59.630 --> 28:02.570]  Hey, Ken and Mercy, and, uh, I have a question for you about Ted Rall.
[28:02.770 --> 28:03.030]  Okay.
[28:03.730 --> 28:13.730]  Um, I wanted to know if, when you spoke to him afterwards, after he was on the show, if he spoke about how he's dealing with, um, what we're all dealing with here.
[28:15.030 --> 28:17.050]  With the threats of, um...
[28:17.050 --> 28:19.590]  You know, going to Afghanistan has changed his life.
[28:19.690 --> 28:20.730]  I'm sure, but...
[28:20.730 --> 28:26.470]  He's much less cynical than he says than he used to be, and indeed he was less, uh, like, abrasive.
[28:26.590 --> 28:27.050]  I don't know what he said.
[28:27.050 --> 28:30.630]  Yeah, he realized, for example, when, over there, it's difficult to breathe.
[28:31.030 --> 28:33.890]  He said, Afghanistan is incredibly dusty.
[28:34.330 --> 28:38.690]  Uh, it's a, it's a glacial dust that's very, very, very fine.
[28:39.110 --> 28:44.610]  And virtually every person in Afghanistan coughs, and they cough all the time.
[28:44.770 --> 28:48.010]  And, and he said that, you know, he'd been back several months, and he's still coughing.
[28:48.170 --> 28:48.850]  So is his wife.
[28:49.270 --> 28:50.130]  Is he a New Yorker?
[28:50.390 --> 28:51.310]  He's a New Yorker.
[28:51.570 --> 28:53.970]  Well, my question is, you know, about all the, uh...
[28:53.970 --> 29:02.870]  Well, he said that, um, in fact, he, he mentions this in the book, and, uh, you, in, you know, in strip form, so I'm going to be translating badly here.
[29:02.870 --> 29:03.710]  I mean, we just got a call.
[29:03.710 --> 29:03.890]  Without pictures.
[29:04.070 --> 29:04.690]  Thank you for this call.
[29:04.850 --> 29:14.890]  But, he talks about, uh, a show he saw about wildebeest migrating, and how they'll cross a river that has crocodiles in it.
[29:15.750 --> 29:25.390]  And many of them will be eaten crossing this river, but they all cross it, and the odds of any one particular wildebeest being the one to be eaten is very slim.
[29:25.630 --> 29:27.730]  And that's how he felt about going to Afghanistan.
[29:28.410 --> 29:31.530]  That, yeah, some of the reporters are not going to come back.
[29:31.530 --> 29:38.230]  Uh, but the odds of any one being the one to not come back was slim.
[29:38.430 --> 29:40.750]  You know, there's millions of people living their entire lives there.
[29:41.010 --> 29:56.210]  And he said it's the same way for, for any, any terrorism or anything here, and that the odds of dying here is much less than there, and the odds there were not as high, if you look upon it as an individual.
[29:57.070 --> 30:01.690]  And, and he said that he realizes how good his life is.
[30:01.970 --> 30:09.730]  Uh, when he, when he was sending his stories to the paper, you know, the articles he was writing, uh, and he said pretty much all of them are, are compiled here.
[30:10.570 --> 30:13.910]  Um, getting electricity was incredibly difficult.
[30:14.630 --> 30:31.710]  Uh, the, the source of electricity in order to send his article to the satellite, uh, was mostly car batteries, and you're paying a lot of money to, uh, have a car battery recharge your phone so you could do a satellite link to your paper.
[30:31.850 --> 30:32.670]  For like a half an hour.
[30:32.690 --> 30:33.510]  And they all did that.
[30:33.630 --> 30:39.170]  It didn't matter whether you were CNN or, you know, a little, you know, cartoonist in a, in the village voice.
[30:39.390 --> 30:40.750]  You had to do that.
[30:41.570 --> 30:47.990]  Um, and he said that there, all the different things that he has that he took for granted, um, he says he's just happier.
[30:48.630 --> 30:50.690]  Um, and you could see it, the way he reproached.
[30:50.730 --> 30:55.410]  He was on Nuff said, you know, a few years ago, and his whole demeanor was, was really different.
[30:56.190 --> 31:00.470]  Um, I mean, he's still one of the most cynical cartoonists there, that is doing stuff.
[31:00.470 --> 31:01.810]  And political, very, very political.
[31:02.190 --> 31:17.290]  Um, yeah, he still believes that being a political cartoonist is a dead-end job for anybody who's in it, because they're, they're, the number of cartoonists that are getting work from papers is less and less all the time, because they're just syndicating.
[31:17.470 --> 31:21.430]  They're just buying the, you know, a handful of big names, and they're ignoring everyone else.
[31:21.730 --> 31:24.150]  Well, part of my question is him being a New Yorker.
[31:24.230 --> 31:30.550]  How does he, how does he deal with all these threats that we're faced with, you know, by the media about, you know, there are going to be other attacks and what have you.
[31:30.630 --> 31:34.950]  Well, of course, you know, that, that's been, uh, greatly in the news this week, really.
[31:34.950 --> 31:38.270]  So that's, you know, since he was here, so I didn't ask him that directly.
[31:38.270 --> 31:41.470]  I just asked him about, you know, war and survival in general.
[31:41.770 --> 31:42.010]  Okay.
[31:43.530 --> 31:51.250]  Because I wonder, I would wonder how a person who had been there and is now here and dealing with what we're having to deal with every day here, what's the contrast?
[31:51.530 --> 32:08.930]  It's, it's not as bad, because there, as he said, it's amazing what you can get used to, uh, that every single day from, what is it, from about, well, from dusk until about 9 p.m., there's bombing every single day and you just get used to it.
[32:09.050 --> 32:11.690]  And when the bombing stops, you know, it's nine o'clock.
[32:12.730 --> 32:19.970]  He figured that the, uh, guys in the Air Force, you know, wanted to, you know, unwind and go to the bars or whatever it is that they do at night.
[32:20.570 --> 32:23.130]  And, uh, so that's why they stopped at nine.
[32:24.290 --> 32:25.550]  But they always did.
[32:25.970 --> 32:27.810]  And everybody else knew it.
[32:28.250 --> 32:37.690]  Uh, you know, when, when a Taliban bomb hit the parking lot, the journalists used, and, and one of the guys got, um, you know, his pieces of his body were raining down on him.
[32:37.750 --> 32:42.950]  He's like, I, he couldn't believe that he was so blase about it, but it was so common.
[32:44.070 --> 32:45.890]  So over here, it's nothing like there.
[32:46.210 --> 32:48.870]  Well, just on, on a completely different subject.
[32:48.870 --> 33:07.530]  People that are out there and listening, and, uh, I agree with what Emmanuel says about, uh, and what everybody's been saying about the consolation, the consolidation, excuse me, of, uh, information and how bigger companies are handling all the information that you get.
[33:07.830 --> 33:21.190]  And whether you believe and, or you agree with what you hear on this radio station or not, just the fact that it can be here and it can exist and can give these different views, is the reason to support it, period.
[33:21.890 --> 33:25.810]  Um, because you're only going to hear certain things here.
[33:26.130 --> 33:27.710]  You're not going to hear it anywhere else.
[33:27.850 --> 33:31.790]  And my political beliefs are very different from a lot of people on this radio station.
[33:32.050 --> 33:38.590]  But I continue to support it because I feel that if it's not being said here, it's not going to be said.
[33:39.510 --> 33:42.010]  And you put your money where your mouth is, that's for sure.
[33:42.190 --> 33:45.070]  You have to, you know, you have to support something like this.
[33:45.510 --> 33:47.370]  There's no television station like it.
[33:47.530 --> 33:47.710]  No.
[33:48.250 --> 33:49.310]  That's for sure, yeah.
[33:49.490 --> 33:50.230]  There's not, there's nothing.
[33:50.530 --> 33:52.430]  Something like this would have just faded away.
[33:53.550 --> 33:54.310]  That'd be a shame.
[33:54.490 --> 34:02.230]  It would, it would be a big shame because a lot of people who care very, uh, very much about what they do on the station would not be heard anymore.
[34:02.230 --> 34:04.610]  Well, East Timor just got independence.
[34:05.210 --> 34:07.770]  You know, they're, they're no longer an occupied country.
[34:07.930 --> 34:09.450]  They're no longer part of another country.
[34:09.650 --> 34:11.270]  Um, they're their own country.
[34:11.550 --> 34:25.290]  And, uh, um, I would have to say WBAI is a major reason because East Timor got put into the news by BAI so much that, uh, people had to pay attention.
[34:25.510 --> 34:30.230]  So everybody should become a member of WBAI, 209-2950.
[34:30.990 --> 34:38.290]  It's 212-209-2950, which I'm sure will be a very good year, but we haven't gotten there yet.
[34:40.750 --> 34:42.170]  By the way, it's good to hear you on the air.
[34:42.250 --> 34:47.130]  I didn't know what happened last week when, when you weren't on, uh, I couldn't get in touch.
[34:47.390 --> 34:47.530]  Scheduling.
[34:47.710 --> 34:53.470]  Yeah, I, I know there's, there's a lot of people who are listening two weeks ago who thought we were going to be on last week and not this week.
[34:54.350 --> 34:55.150]  Including us.
[34:55.370 --> 34:55.870]  Yes, yes.
[34:56.050 --> 34:56.770]  We thought that too.
[34:57.270 --> 35:04.130]  Uh, yeah, uh, Emmanuel and, uh, Mercy, Mercy and I, uh, found out just a few hours before airtime.
[35:04.230 --> 35:06.110]  Oh, that's always good.
[35:06.270 --> 35:08.930]  Via messages on our answering machines, which means...
[35:08.930 --> 35:10.470]  It wouldn't be BAI if it wasn't like that.
[35:10.630 --> 35:10.870]  That's right.
[35:11.110 --> 35:11.930]  Thank you for that call.
[35:12.030 --> 35:12.890]  Someone else just called in.
[35:12.910 --> 35:13.170]  Thank you.
[35:13.170 --> 35:20.810]  The important thing is to, to get through the adversity and, and show your support anyway, and, uh, and, and, you know, this place will be around for many years to come.
[35:20.810 --> 35:26.490]  And I think the caller nailed it because it's like, it doesn't matter where you're coming from, what your, what your philosophy is.
[35:26.630 --> 35:35.110]  As long as you appreciate freedom of speech, as long as you appreciate being able to, uh, to speak out and learn things, then this place will serve many different communities.
[35:35.110 --> 35:40.250]  And that's why many different communities have to give us a call and, and support the existence of this place.
[35:40.330 --> 35:42.030]  212-209-2950.
[35:42.410 --> 35:43.510]  One call on the line.
[35:43.670 --> 35:45.630]  There should be 10 calls on the line, I think.
[35:45.750 --> 35:48.370]  I mean, you know, lots of people listen to this radio program.
[35:48.450 --> 35:57.070]  When I take phone calls, um, I usually have, you know, well, however many lines are actually working is how many calls I've got.
[35:58.150 --> 36:00.030]  209-2950 is the number you want to call.
[36:00.130 --> 36:02.330]  Our operators are getting a little bored back there.
[36:02.410 --> 36:03.110]  They need some entertainment.
[36:03.310 --> 36:04.370]  Call them up and pledge.
[36:04.370 --> 36:05.630]  It's not a painful experience.
[36:05.770 --> 36:06.250]  It really isn't.
[36:06.250 --> 36:17.710]  You actually feel good after calling up and donating something and knowing that you're a part of, of the radio station, of freedom of speech, of something really different that's not being duplicated anyplace else.
[36:18.110 --> 36:19.830]  212-209-2950.
[36:20.010 --> 36:22.170]  They have very friendly volunteers answering the phone.
[36:22.690 --> 36:23.050]  So, you should call.
[36:23.050 --> 36:24.790]  Well, good luck with the fun drive, everyone.
[36:24.930 --> 36:26.070]  I hope all people do call up.
[36:26.290 --> 36:26.730]  All right.
[36:26.790 --> 36:27.230]  Thanks a lot.
[36:27.370 --> 36:27.790]  Have a good night.
[36:28.010 --> 36:28.230]  Okay.
[36:28.430 --> 36:28.690]  Good night.
[36:30.450 --> 36:32.490]  212-209-2950.
[36:32.970 --> 36:35.690]  Actually, there's a, there's a great comic book called Supreme.
[36:35.690 --> 36:38.050]  That I got turned on by that listener.
[36:38.390 --> 36:38.510]  Yeah.
[36:39.010 --> 36:41.970]  You know, he called in one day and said, you haven't mentioned it.
[36:42.170 --> 36:44.010]  And you, you would if, if you had read it.
[36:44.070 --> 36:45.170]  So, obviously, you're not reading it.
[36:45.250 --> 36:46.390]  And that's when I started reading it.
[36:46.510 --> 36:47.630]  It's because of his call.
[36:48.970 --> 36:52.050]  It can turn on to a lot of good material by, by the listeners.
[36:52.210 --> 36:53.010]  They're, they're great.
[36:54.530 --> 36:59.250]  And, uh, now I want them to be even greater and pledge to become a member of the station.
[36:59.250 --> 37:03.490]  Uh, uh, for a hundred dollars, you get a, a copy of To Afghanistan and back.
[37:03.610 --> 37:08.570]  It's a hardback book, uh, introduction by Bill Maher of, uh, Politically Incorrect.
[37:08.990 --> 37:14.110]  It's, um, half graphic novel and, and half prose travelogue.
[37:14.110 --> 37:17.530]  You also get the Sheldon Mayer issue of Comic Book Artist.
[37:17.790 --> 37:20.030]  You also get Rex Mundy Preview Book.
[37:20.250 --> 37:24.610]  You also get a complete set of Dangerous Times for Revolution comics that Mercy and I published.
[37:25.350 --> 37:29.650]  And a complete set of New Frontiers comics that Mercy drew, the Green Ghost.
[37:30.470 --> 37:32.610]  You mentioned Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect.
[37:32.710 --> 37:34.150]  Did I hear right that that show got canceled?
[37:34.430 --> 37:34.670]  Yes.
[37:34.990 --> 37:35.270]  It did?
[37:35.350 --> 37:35.590]  Oh, yeah?
[37:35.590 --> 37:42.330]  The only interesting show on commercial television, the only show that talks about issues, what, it just was too dangerous?
[37:42.330 --> 37:42.990]  Was that the thing?
[37:43.110 --> 37:54.070]  Uh, I think the proof of that is the fact that he's being replaced by Jimmy Kimmel, formerly of Win Ben Stein's Money and now of The Man Show, a show that features women jumping on trampolines.
[37:54.770 --> 37:58.550]  I think that says everything you need to know about why Politically Incorrect got canceled.
[37:58.930 --> 38:01.070]  Why don't they let them be topless if they're going to do that anyway?
[38:01.270 --> 38:02.330]  I'm surprised I don't understand.
[38:02.330 --> 38:10.550]  Well, this should show you how rare a place like BAI is, then, and how pervasive stupidity is in commercial.
[38:10.770 --> 38:12.390]  Well, maybe it's because Bill Maher did the introduction to Ted Rawls' book.
[38:12.530 --> 38:13.830]  Well, I'll tell you something.
[38:13.970 --> 38:17.370]  I'm extremely right-wing, and I'm horribly upset by that.
[38:17.650 --> 38:17.850]  Yeah.
[38:18.330 --> 38:19.370]  Yeah, it made you think.
[38:19.530 --> 38:21.990]  Jim, that makes you not extremely right-wing.
[38:22.470 --> 38:23.210]  Oh, okay.
[38:24.150 --> 38:25.330]  212-209-2950.
[38:26.110 --> 38:26.830]  Show your support.
[38:27.110 --> 38:28.090]  Keep this place going.
[38:28.290 --> 38:30.810]  Other places are falling, but we intend to stand.
[38:30.810 --> 38:34.870]  And on this show, we have intelligent political commentary, not merely blonde Republicans.
[38:35.170 --> 38:36.350]  So it's a good deal.
[38:36.570 --> 38:39.110]  No, as far as I know, I'm the only Republican here, and I'm not blonde.
[38:39.430 --> 38:39.970]  There you go.
[38:40.550 --> 38:41.990]  Two Republicans, or we're both not blonde.
[38:43.310 --> 38:43.890]  Republicans not blonde.
[38:43.890 --> 38:45.410]  Well, you've got your blonde-ish.
[38:45.650 --> 38:46.450]  Is that the name of a band?
[38:46.710 --> 38:47.610]  Republicans not blonde.
[38:47.790 --> 38:49.990]  It's four non-blonde Republicans.
[38:50.110 --> 38:50.610]  Yes, that's it.
[38:50.730 --> 38:51.630]  Four non-blonde Republicans.
[38:52.150 --> 38:54.030]  It would be an interesting name for a band, wouldn't it?
[38:54.030 --> 38:57.070]  Two one two two zero nine two nine five oh.
[38:57.350 --> 38:57.970]  Yes, that'll be...
[38:57.970 --> 38:59.430]  We pledge your support for WBAI.
[38:59.550 --> 38:59.930]  And that's it.
[39:00.010 --> 39:03.090]  BAI needs the support of everybody out there.
[39:03.510 --> 39:08.810]  And if you want to call this show, it's two one two two zero nine two nine hundred.
[39:09.130 --> 39:10.050]  And you're on the air.
[39:10.770 --> 39:11.250]  Hello.
[39:11.530 --> 39:11.730]  Hi.
[39:11.730 --> 39:12.650]  Okay.
[39:13.470 --> 39:22.530]  You said, first of all, you said, according to Ted Rawl, you have a greater chance of getting killed in Afghanistan than in New York.
[39:22.990 --> 39:33.130]  Now, according to Dr. Michio Kaku on exploration on WBAI, one of the biggest threats is from nuclear power plants being hit.
[39:34.130 --> 39:49.050]  And then on then Mike Levine on expert witness radio show on WBAI says that we're all in grave danger because nuclear winter could occur very soon from war in the Middle East.
[39:49.290 --> 39:54.250]  Well, nuclear winter is going to affect Afghanistan and the United States both at the same time.
[39:54.470 --> 39:57.930]  So this person listens to the station all the time.
[39:57.950 --> 40:01.970]  If you want to if you want to compare the two places as far as that go.
[40:01.970 --> 40:11.610]  But the point is still remains that the odds of any one person dying from any one thing, whether it's it's war or an act of terrorism, is slim.
[40:11.790 --> 40:21.250]  And that's how life goes on in places like Afghanistan and Israel and New York City and wherever that people are worried about things happening.
[40:21.530 --> 40:24.910]  Which places have the nuclear power plants most likely to be targeted?
[40:25.170 --> 40:30.490]  Well, if you continue listening to BAI, I'm sure here are all kinds of possible horror scenarios.
[40:31.170 --> 40:34.610]  There's, you know, a wide variety from all...
[40:34.610 --> 40:35.970]  We could be pelted with...
[40:35.970 --> 40:36.770]  They're all over the country.
[40:36.850 --> 40:41.910]  Well, the Indian Point nuclear power plant being so close to New York City is a prime target.
[40:42.030 --> 40:46.010]  And the fact that it is next to a very wide body of water helps.
[40:46.230 --> 40:56.190]  Although the plants along, say, Lake Erie, Lake Ontario might be a bigger target because they're easier to get to without being seen because they're right next to an even larger body of water.
[40:56.190 --> 40:57.230]  I'm just watching that airspace.
[40:57.510 --> 41:03.230]  But it seems to me that when terrorists attack things, they go after things with symbolic value.
[41:03.590 --> 41:08.570]  And irradiating New York City is pretty heavy on the symbolism, wouldn't you think?
[41:09.510 --> 41:10.010]  Yeah.
[41:10.410 --> 41:15.250]  I heard in the news that, in other words, they're going to attack the Statue of Liberty.
[41:15.490 --> 41:19.730]  I think I'm more concerned about how the government's attacking liberty itself.
[41:20.370 --> 41:21.530]  That's a good point.
[41:21.530 --> 41:22.710]  Yes, great point.
[41:23.330 --> 41:26.310]  Obviously, you listen to a lot of BAI shows, don't you?
[41:27.570 --> 41:28.710]  Are you a member of the station?
[41:29.590 --> 41:30.410]  I would be.
[41:32.470 --> 41:34.910]  I don't get a lot of income, and I...
[41:34.910 --> 41:39.050]  It sounds like you'd be the perfect person to be part of this local advisory board.
[41:40.770 --> 41:51.570]  If you don't have a lot of income, $25 for a low-income membership, and you can be part of BAI and have a say in the local advisory board, and you would have an educated say because you listen to so much of the station.
[41:51.890 --> 41:52.230]  Yeah.
[41:52.370 --> 41:53.090]  So go for it.
[41:54.950 --> 42:00.990]  I give money to Needless Cases Fund, the EFF now.
[42:01.190 --> 42:09.730]  Well, anyway, I should tell you and anybody in your same situation, become a member of the station, 212-209-2950.
[42:10.050 --> 42:11.070]  Anyway, thanks for your call.
[42:12.950 --> 42:15.190]  I think we qualify as Needless Cases, don't you?
[42:15.650 --> 42:20.610]  Yeah, I would say so, especially since our tally still hasn't even crossed $500.
[42:21.790 --> 42:26.690]  After all that, not a single person can call and bring us $5 over.
[42:27.010 --> 42:28.570]  You know, we have $4.95.
[42:28.890 --> 42:29.570]  We're stuck there.
[42:29.810 --> 42:31.270]  Actually, I wonder how we got to $4.95.
[42:31.270 --> 42:32.890]  That's a rather interesting figure.
[42:33.030 --> 42:34.250]  I'm not sure, but...
[42:34.250 --> 42:36.410]  You know, we had lots and lots of $5 pledges.
[42:36.710 --> 42:38.270]  One was $1.125.
[42:40.050 --> 42:45.070]  If we were one of these religious preachers, we could make a million dollars in like an hour.
[42:45.190 --> 42:46.870]  Put your hands on the radio.
[42:47.030 --> 42:47.950]  Yeah, and...
[42:47.950 --> 42:48.990]  We'll heal you.
[42:49.450 --> 42:50.790]  We'll heal you with comic books.
[42:50.970 --> 42:52.950]  Right, we said, God wants you to give money.
[42:53.210 --> 42:55.630]  And people will believe it because they hear it on the radio.
[42:56.230 --> 42:56.990]  Well, we've got somebody to call that.
[42:56.990 --> 43:02.150]  We're trying to appeal to people's intellects as well as their emotions instead of just telling them, God wants you to.
[43:02.230 --> 43:03.170]  Maybe that's our mistake.
[43:03.790 --> 43:04.150]  209-2950.
[43:04.150 --> 43:05.510]  209-2950.
[43:05.710 --> 43:09.150]  If you believe in God, if you don't believe in God, the lack of God wants you to call.
[43:10.110 --> 43:10.930]  It covers quite a few bases there.
[43:10.930 --> 43:12.250]  We're an equal opportunity here on this stage.
[43:12.390 --> 43:12.470]  Right.
[43:14.490 --> 43:15.010]  212-209.
[43:15.010 --> 43:17.790]  Yes, the lack of God wants you to become a member of WPA.
[43:17.970 --> 43:18.850]  No, no, no, no.
[43:18.890 --> 43:23.890]  The theory is the lack of God will cause you to give to the AI to support free thinking.
[43:25.510 --> 43:26.470]  That got one call.
[43:26.650 --> 43:27.550]  There is no number six.
[43:33.570 --> 43:36.830]  209-2950 to donate to WBAI to pledge your support.
[43:36.990 --> 43:37.510]  Very strange thing.
[43:37.570 --> 43:40.390]  When you say nobody's calling, the cranks go, All right!
[43:44.130 --> 43:47.030]  We don't get as many cranks as we used to.
[43:47.190 --> 43:49.670]  But the cranks seem to come out during pledge time.
[43:50.330 --> 43:51.770]  I have noticed that.
[43:52.610 --> 43:55.410]  Anyway, 212-209-2950.
[43:55.410 --> 43:56.990]  We have another 15 minutes.
[43:56.990 --> 43:59.410]  And we want you to become a member of this station.
[43:59.670 --> 44:03.590]  And for now, we'll take your phone calls at 209-2900.
[44:03.590 --> 44:04.290]  You're on the air.
[44:04.930 --> 44:05.610]  Oh, no, you're not.
[44:05.750 --> 44:07.310]  That's the same person who just called that line.
[44:08.530 --> 44:10.130]  Maybe he's got two lines.
[44:10.270 --> 44:11.290]  He's calling them both.
[44:11.410 --> 44:11.990]  Too many hang-ups.
[44:14.690 --> 44:17.750]  Anyway, any summing up about all the stuff we've been going after?
[44:17.990 --> 44:19.350]  Go see the Spider-Man movie.
[44:19.530 --> 44:20.150]  It's cute.
[44:22.950 --> 44:26.770]  I saw the Star Wars film, right, when I was in Ohio.
[44:27.710 --> 44:36.390]  And, boy, I'm not going to get into all the plot problems or the acting problems because we only have 15 minutes.
[44:36.830 --> 44:42.890]  But these simpletons who were at the theater could not figure out how to run the film properly.
[44:43.510 --> 44:45.890]  Actually, no, that's not entirely right.
[44:46.090 --> 44:47.870]  They didn't have any say in it themselves.
[44:47.870 --> 44:57.730]  They were simply running the automated projections, projection machines, I guess, which everybody has these days.
[44:57.750 --> 44:58.890]  You don't have a projectionist.
[44:58.950 --> 45:04.790]  You just have a machine with certain types of material that trigger certain events.
[45:04.790 --> 45:13.650]  For instance, when the last promo ends, a particular piece of film goes by that triggers the lights to dim at that point.
[45:14.150 --> 45:18.470]  And then when the film is over and the credits come up, the lights come on a little bit.
[45:18.590 --> 45:19.730]  But the film keeps going.
[45:19.810 --> 45:22.270]  Well, what happened here, something got messed up someplace.
[45:24.090 --> 45:30.270]  And instead of the lights dimming after the promo, the lights actually came on after the promo.
[45:30.750 --> 45:31.110]  Yeah.
[45:31.350 --> 45:34.230]  So we had lights on throughout the entire film.
[45:34.710 --> 45:38.730]  And nobody wanted to go out to complain about it because if they did that, they'd miss part of the film.
[45:39.430 --> 45:41.850]  And, you know, you don't want to miss part of the Star Wars film.
[45:41.850 --> 45:44.650]  On opening day, even if you are in Ohio.
[45:46.910 --> 45:53.690]  So everybody sat through this thing with the lights on, you know, and then what do you think happens at the end of the film?
[45:54.110 --> 45:58.710]  Well, the credits start and then the lights go off and the film stops.
[45:58.970 --> 45:59.870]  Everybody's in the dark.
[46:00.110 --> 46:08.870]  Because the intelligent projector thinks, oh, okay, I'm at the end of the credits now, you know, so there's no need to have the film go anymore.
[46:08.870 --> 46:12.330]  So they turn that off and the lights aren't as bright as they were.
[46:12.470 --> 46:13.090]  They're on a little bit.
[46:13.910 --> 46:19.270]  And then finally, somebody, I guess, someplace figured out that this shouldn't be happening and turned it on.
[46:19.390 --> 46:19.990]  But it was...
[46:19.990 --> 46:24.570]  You heard movie theater music, you know, the stupid music they play while nothing's happening.
[46:24.690 --> 46:26.770]  You heard that while the credits were playing.
[46:28.330 --> 46:30.350]  It was unbelievable.
[46:30.730 --> 46:35.910]  And that also shows that nobody even came in to check to make sure that, you know, everything was going okay.
[46:36.090 --> 46:39.790]  This is another example of how they just don't care.
[46:40.010 --> 46:40.130]  Yeah.
[46:40.270 --> 46:41.450]  They don't care at all.
[46:42.630 --> 46:43.070]  So...
[46:43.070 --> 46:44.190]  Just automate everything.
[46:44.510 --> 46:51.910]  But the positive side of the story is I complained about it and we all got free passes, except it's free passes to a theater in Ohio.
[46:52.130 --> 46:53.030]  When are you going to get there again?
[46:53.050 --> 46:53.530]  I don't know.
[46:53.610 --> 46:54.050]  I don't know.
[46:54.090 --> 46:54.750]  No time soon.
[46:54.750 --> 46:55.850]  We have two calls.
[46:55.990 --> 46:57.630]  Thank you for those calls, pledging your support.
[46:57.710 --> 46:58.090]  Dayton, Ohio.
[46:58.410 --> 46:58.550]  Yeah.
[46:58.750 --> 47:00.330]  212-209-2950.
[47:00.530 --> 47:08.170]  If you're fed up and don't want to take it anymore, call us because at least we feel the same way and there's a good chance that, you know, you'll get to be heard here.
[47:08.830 --> 47:10.430]  212-209-2950.
[47:10.650 --> 47:11.450]  We need your support.
[47:11.710 --> 47:15.550]  And if you're in Dayton, Ohio and pledge, Emmanuel will send you those passes.
[47:16.750 --> 47:18.090]  That's not a bad idea, actually.
[47:18.570 --> 47:19.850]  Yeah, that's not a bad idea at all.
[47:20.010 --> 47:20.890]  Somebody could use them.
[47:21.450 --> 47:22.610]  Somebody could get to go see that movie.
[47:22.930 --> 47:24.230]  In or near Dayton, Ohio.
[47:24.230 --> 47:25.990]  How long are the passes good for?
[47:26.390 --> 47:27.550]  The guy said forever.
[47:28.010 --> 47:33.010]  He also said, though, since there was a national amusements theater that I could use them here, so I'm going to try that first.
[47:33.450 --> 47:36.530]  And when that doesn't work, you know, I'll figure some else out.
[47:38.150 --> 47:40.250]  2-0-9-2950.
[47:40.730 --> 47:42.910]  Show your support for WBAI and Nuffset.
[47:42.950 --> 47:52.610]  $50 for regular membership, $100 for a premium, $125 gets you all kinds of WBAI merchandise, hat, t-shirt, mug, and something else.
[47:52.810 --> 47:57.930]  But any pledge gets you the satisfaction of knowing that you're helping the radio station.
[47:58.030 --> 47:58.890]  And that's what it's all about.
[47:58.890 --> 48:02.690]  Whether you pledge $10 or $1,000, you're helping out.
[48:02.690 --> 48:04.110]  You're becoming part of this place.
[48:04.470 --> 48:06.250]  And we need you.
[48:06.350 --> 48:07.510]  We need you for that purpose.
[48:07.790 --> 48:14.450]  And for those of you with $225 to spare, you get the combined Nuff Said Off-The-Hook special.
[48:14.730 --> 48:24.910]  Freedom Downtime, two tickets to H2K2, Evolution Comics, the Ted Rawl book, everything you could possibly imagine, and more.
[48:25.710 --> 48:26.430]  There you go.
[48:27.130 --> 48:28.770]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[48:30.170 --> 48:31.030]  That is pretty cool.
[48:32.510 --> 48:33.310]  That's $250.
[48:33.650 --> 48:34.850]  Even if you can't contribute that.
[48:34.930 --> 48:37.770]  If you can only contribute $10 if you want to help out as a student.
[48:38.130 --> 48:40.590]  I mean, a lot of people not working right now, lower income.
[48:40.970 --> 48:42.570]  Please help out with whatever you can.
[48:42.910 --> 48:44.570]  Keep this radio station going.
[48:44.970 --> 48:47.530]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[48:47.530 --> 48:50.970]  We have time for a few more calls before we go off the air.
[48:51.710 --> 48:55.170]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-0 is the number.
[48:55.750 --> 48:56.670]  Talk to us here.
[48:56.830 --> 48:57.430]  You're on the air.
[48:57.670 --> 49:04.610]  Yes, you talk about intellect and freedom of speech, and then you don't answer my question in any other way to say that I may have asked it before.
[49:04.810 --> 49:05.310]  You're right.
[49:05.890 --> 49:07.090]  Over 20 years.
[49:07.370 --> 49:08.350]  Over and over again.
[49:08.510 --> 49:09.110]  Every show.
[49:09.650 --> 49:11.270]  Yep, and saying the same things.
[49:11.430 --> 49:12.170]  You're on the air.
[49:12.710 --> 49:23.770]  Hi, I'm really enjoying the merging of Off-The-Hook and Nuff Said tonight, and I liked it in the last marathon when Worsh-Orthodox and Nuff Said merged their shows together.
[49:23.990 --> 49:32.390]  And that, you know, the occasional cross-fertilization and openness is really a wonderful thing to hear on WBAI.
[49:33.110 --> 49:33.850]  Well, thank you.
[49:33.890 --> 49:34.610]  Well, thanks for the compliment.
[49:34.770 --> 49:35.030]  Thanks.
[49:35.330 --> 49:35.490]  Thank you.
[49:35.530 --> 49:45.250]  Yeah, I mean, well, comic books do crossovers all the time, and we used to do it with Sidney Smith's Carrier Wave and had an absolutely wonderful time, you know, combining shows with him.
[49:45.350 --> 49:46.130]  And we got to watch TV.
[49:46.130 --> 49:49.910]  And so I was really looking to do it with anybody.
[49:50.310 --> 49:58.810]  There might be a soon-to-be-a crossover with the Saturday morning science fiction show, Hour of the Wolf.
[49:59.110 --> 50:00.090]  Oh, wow, that's really neat.
[50:00.090 --> 50:02.810]  Yeah, we'll probably do a crossover with Jim Freund.
[50:03.730 --> 50:05.750]  It'll be Star Wars-oriented.
[50:06.390 --> 50:11.090]  I'd also like to say that, you know, I was one of the people that stood in front of BAI.
[50:11.250 --> 50:18.990]  And as this marathon came around, I had to reflect that not everything that I hoped for would be accomplished has been accomplished yet.
[50:19.150 --> 50:21.070]  And sometimes it was a little frustrating.
[50:21.070 --> 50:26.350]  And sometimes it seems like the kind of openness that's just been displayed isn't always there.
[50:26.350 --> 50:30.990]  So I had to think about, you know, my plans for supporting the station in this marathon.
[50:30.990 --> 50:34.950]  And so I just began to count up the shows that really mean a lot to me.
[50:35.030 --> 50:35.910]  And there were lots of them.
[50:36.310 --> 50:49.090]  And so what I decided was that although, you know, I'm not totally satisfied and I think a lot of work that needs to be done to make BAI a better station, that I did pledge and I pledged actually more than I usually do.
[50:49.210 --> 50:50.470]  And I feel pretty good about that.
[50:50.650 --> 50:51.190]  That's great.
[50:51.330 --> 50:52.570]  Thanks so much for the support.
[50:52.790 --> 50:52.870]  And that's cool.
[50:53.070 --> 50:53.470]  Thank you.
[50:53.670 --> 51:02.290]  And it's always going to be a process where you're never satisfied completely, where things have to constantly be fixed and made better.
[51:02.710 --> 51:07.370]  But let me tell you, the people who are here now are really trying and they really believe in the place.
[51:07.370 --> 51:11.590]  And I think that's the most essential ingredient you have and it's necessary in order to succeed.
[51:11.730 --> 51:19.430]  And I can't imagine there's a single human being on Earth who could agree with every single show on WBAI because we are so diverse.
[51:19.570 --> 51:21.530]  And I think that diversity is the strength.
[51:21.690 --> 51:23.470]  But it means you're going to disagree with some people.
[51:23.630 --> 51:26.350]  Well, it's not about agreeing or disagreeing with every show.
[51:26.430 --> 51:27.370]  I don't think that that's...
[51:27.370 --> 51:32.330]  What I'm talking about is there was a process that...
[51:32.330 --> 51:35.250]  The station can be open or it can be very closed.
[51:35.450 --> 51:40.090]  And it's certainly much more open now than it was in the year that preceded that.
[51:40.190 --> 51:42.130]  But also, it's really closed in a lot of ways.
[51:42.290 --> 51:48.790]  And in a lot of ways, there are people who have a lot of power at the station that are afraid to share that power with the listeners.
[51:49.070 --> 51:56.570]  And they think that the only way that the listener power might be expressed at the station is a kind of micromanagement and choosing each show.
[51:56.730 --> 51:57.670]  I don't think that's true.
[51:57.770 --> 52:11.390]  I think there's a lot of room for listener participation that still respects the people who have jobs to do Well, that's what the local advisory board is going to have a lot more say.
[52:11.850 --> 52:13.130]  Maybe it will and maybe it won't.
[52:13.170 --> 52:14.790]  That's not really settled yet.
[52:14.930 --> 52:20.330]  And the process seems to be that the local advisory board should already have a lot more say right now.
[52:20.470 --> 52:26.870]  And the management, before any bylaws change them, they could just decide unilaterally, we're going to be real open about this.
[52:26.990 --> 52:30.250]  We're not going to make any decisions without the lab input.
[52:30.290 --> 52:31.730]  But they haven't decided to do that.
[52:31.730 --> 52:39.090]  And so, you know, it's really important that people let the management know that we do want you to take, you know, input.
[52:39.250 --> 52:41.490]  We want you to talk about the decisions that you make.
[52:41.570 --> 52:43.990]  We want you to listen to what other people think.
[52:44.310 --> 52:49.530]  We agree that, you know, as a program director, you ultimately have the last call.
[52:49.630 --> 53:00.970]  And because we respect you and we think that you're, you know, working from toward the same end as we were going to respect your decisions, but you really need to be open about the process and you really need to make sure you have a way to listen.
[53:00.970 --> 53:09.350]  Well, people are aware that some of the problems with the Pacifica Foundation over the last several years were because of the lack of openness.
[53:10.070 --> 53:12.850]  And I've noticed that things are a lot more open.
[53:13.030 --> 53:20.150]  There's a lot more communication between different areas within WBAI now than there ever was.
[53:20.650 --> 53:23.090]  I mean, not just during the coup, but before the coup.
[53:23.310 --> 53:28.710]  I think things are a lot better than they were just because people know how important the communication is.
[53:28.710 --> 53:31.570]  It's because it was the lack of communication that got us into this mess.
[53:32.590 --> 53:36.590]  I think you have more confidence that people have learned the lesson.
[53:36.690 --> 53:39.250]  Well, yeah, because I've seen the improvement.
[53:39.610 --> 53:42.310]  I've seen there's more meetings.
[53:42.670 --> 53:52.450]  There's more communication between different departments at BAI than there's ever been before, which I think is wonderful because we all have different things to give.
[53:55.150 --> 53:57.130]  What about outside the staff?
[53:58.450 --> 53:59.410]  Outside the staff?
[53:59.630 --> 54:00.670]  I am not sure about.
[54:01.770 --> 54:08.730]  The important thing is that listeners like this take part in the process and are there to let us know if we're straying in any way.
[54:09.070 --> 54:11.010]  So I think the doors are open now.
[54:11.390 --> 54:12.350]  No, they're not, really.
[54:12.570 --> 54:14.150]  They're not quite that open.
[54:14.370 --> 54:18.370]  Well, they're not wide open, but they're open so you can come here at least and talk to people.
[54:19.270 --> 54:24.250]  Yeah, but what I'm trying to tell you is my experience is they're not as open as you might think they are.
[54:25.070 --> 54:31.730]  After the last marathon, I was interested in doing volunteer work, you know, sending out premiums or doing clerical work.
[54:31.870 --> 54:40.270]  And just to be able to get a hold of somebody that could tell me when a good time for me to come down and volunteer my time, you wouldn't believe how difficult that was.
[54:40.270 --> 54:47.570]  So in many ways, the station... I mean, to say the doors are open is one thing, but what the station really needs to do is reach out to the listeners.
[54:47.790 --> 54:55.230]  When people come to volunteer in the tally room, do they give them a piece of paper and say, are you interested in volunteering on a continuing basis?
[54:55.290 --> 55:00.130]  Okay, but I think what you're touching upon is efficiency, which is something that BAI has never had.
[55:00.490 --> 55:03.230]  I don't think... I think it's attitude, not efficiency.
[55:03.230 --> 55:04.310]  I don't know.
[55:04.550 --> 55:10.450]  I think you might be reading too much into it because I know people try and sometimes they're just overwhelmed with work.
[55:10.590 --> 55:12.990]  I can't get calls back lots of times from people I need to talk to.
[55:13.350 --> 55:15.170]  And it's a frustrating experience.
[55:15.170 --> 55:15.990]  I understand that.
[55:16.230 --> 55:20.130]  But you would be welcome to come down and volunteer your time anytime.
[55:20.130 --> 55:24.630]  One of the problems is that none of the department heads have assistants.
[55:25.230 --> 55:31.790]  In any other radio station, the department heads would have an assistant to do a lot of these things, but there isn't the money to pay for them.
[55:31.790 --> 55:33.510]  So that's why you need volunteers.
[55:33.730 --> 55:41.090]  To say we're too busy to get volunteers in here to do some of the work that we're too busy doing, don't you see how silly that's that?
[55:41.090 --> 55:42.370]  I don't think anyone has said that.
[55:42.490 --> 55:44.230]  Has anyone said you're too busy to have a volunteer?
[55:44.490 --> 55:45.710]  He's reading into that.
[55:45.830 --> 55:51.310]  No, what happens is that the person who would make the contact isn't available.
[55:51.850 --> 55:56.650]  I've been with so many environmental groups that had the exact same problem that you just mentioned.
[55:56.770 --> 55:58.910]  They didn't have the people to get the people.
[56:00.610 --> 56:03.170]  No, it's not that they didn't have the people to get the people.
[56:03.330 --> 56:04.250]  You make a priority.
[56:04.250 --> 56:06.190]  You have the people to do things.
[56:06.330 --> 56:08.470]  And you only have a certain amount of jobs you can do.
[56:08.750 --> 56:12.730]  How far up in that list do you put the jobs of recruiting volunteers?
[56:13.010 --> 56:15.370]  Do you put that high in the list, or do you put it low?
[56:15.870 --> 56:17.490]  Some jobs are not going to get done.
[56:17.510 --> 56:28.590]  If you decided that that was one of the most important jobs to do, that after having programs on the air, the second most important thing was to get volunteers into the station, that's a matter of priorities.
[56:28.870 --> 56:33.310]  And if you do that and you do it well, then all the problems that you're talking about...
[56:33.310 --> 56:40.930]  Not all the problems, but many of the problems you're talking about, about lack of time, lack of staff, you don't have an assistant, it's a community radio station.
[56:40.930 --> 56:44.570]  There should be volunteers to do as many jobs as possible.
[56:44.710 --> 56:49.270]  If everybody there needs an assistant, get a volunteer assistant for everybody there.
[56:49.270 --> 56:53.610]  Okay, has anyone ever told you not to come down to the station and volunteer?
[56:53.910 --> 56:54.270]  Yes.
[56:54.770 --> 56:55.050]  Really?
[56:55.390 --> 56:55.790]  Yes.
[56:56.290 --> 56:56.930]  Well, that's wrong.
[56:57.030 --> 56:57.790]  That's totally wrong.
[56:57.870 --> 56:58.390]  That is wrong, yes.
[56:58.890 --> 57:00.030]  Okay, and I think that...
[57:00.030 --> 57:11.650]  I understand that you don't have that experience, but I think you need to be open and understand that the culture of WBI still now to this day is not friendly to volunteers.
[57:11.890 --> 57:23.290]  And until people first say, we're going to do a change of attitude, that we are going to make this a part of our culture, that we welcome volunteers, nothing is going to happen.
[57:23.490 --> 57:28.130]  And as long as you don't realize that that is a problem, you're not going to have a change of attitude.
[57:28.130 --> 57:41.170]  So I'm asking you, talk to listeners, listen to listeners when they tell that to you, and don't tell them all the reasons why their experience is not really true, or that they don't really understand what's going on, because they're not an insider.
[57:41.810 --> 57:43.290]  That is what has to change.
[57:43.450 --> 57:47.770]  Okay, well, thanks for your call, make it due, because the show is ending.
[57:48.170 --> 57:48.530]  Thank you.
[57:48.730 --> 57:49.110]  All right.
[57:49.970 --> 57:50.830]  And coming up next...
[57:50.830 --> 57:53.050]  We just got another donation for $100 recently.
[57:53.170 --> 57:53.230]  All right.
[57:53.230 --> 57:54.070]  Thank you for that call.
[57:54.190 --> 57:57.230]  As you can see, there's a lot of passion out there, and that's what we need.
[57:57.310 --> 57:58.270]  We need people with passion.
[57:58.870 --> 58:01.190]  You can't dispute the passion, that's for sure.
[58:01.350 --> 58:03.590]  212-209-2950.
[58:03.890 --> 58:14.830]  And now is usually the time when I boil things down and saying if you want to send stuff here, the address is 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 1-0-0-0-5.
[58:15.190 --> 58:18.550]  I can't give you the website, because there isn't one for us.
[58:19.170 --> 58:20.290]  Unless you want to see pornography.
[58:21.010 --> 58:21.310]  Yeah.
[58:21.850 --> 58:24.650]  And however, Off the Hook has a website.
[58:25.650 --> 58:27.370]  Oh, well, yeah, we do.
[58:27.770 --> 58:31.290]  www.2600.com slash offthehook is our website.
[58:31.290 --> 58:32.510]  So, 2600.
[58:33.950 --> 58:34.510]  2600.
[58:34.530 --> 58:41.410]  And you can also tie in to a link to listen to WBAI 24 hours a day from their site.
[58:41.710 --> 58:50.290]  So, anybody you know who you think should be listening, but they can't because they don't live in New York, well, they can if they have an Internet connection.
[58:50.670 --> 58:52.310]  And the software to do it is...
[58:52.310 --> 58:53.190]  There's a link to that, right?
[58:53.270 --> 58:54.070]  How to get the software?
[58:55.070 --> 58:57.090]  To get the real audio software to listen?
[58:57.090 --> 59:01.330]  Well, real audio is only one, and that's not the one we really encourage as much.
[59:01.690 --> 59:01.870]  Well, whatever.
[59:02.430 --> 59:07.590]  Just any MP3 player, which comes standard with most computer operating systems these days.
[59:07.770 --> 59:08.190]  There you go.
[59:08.450 --> 59:08.530]  Yeah.
[59:09.330 --> 59:11.510]  Okay, so pretty much anybody with a computer can listen.
[59:11.890 --> 59:12.270]  Yeah.
[59:12.530 --> 59:15.430]  And speakers, you know, they come with a computer.
[59:17.570 --> 59:20.950]  So, coming up next is the Morris Orthodox Radio Crusade.
[59:21.450 --> 59:32.710]  There are a bunch of them are in the building, even as we speak, and after that is Weaponry with Tom Whisker, and here's a little bit of information on that.
[59:33.030 --> 59:50.250]  Let me also pay my respects to the coalition commanders that I just met and to the members of the armed forces that are here side by side with the United States, armed forces from other countries, shoulder to shoulder, and we are very grateful that this is a multilateral,
[59:50.250 --> 59:52.790]  not simply a unilateral mission.
[59:53.190 --> 59:54.550]  Our U.S.
[59:54.670 --> 59:56.690]  presence, of course, is the dominant one.
[59:57.510 --> 01:00:04.410]  Weaponry, America's only international defense affairs, military hardware, and history talk show is heard every Tuesday night at 1.30 a.m.
[01:00:04.650 --> 01:00:14.670]  Tune in for in-depth, often scholarly, multifaceted analysis of the ongoing crises in Somalia, the Middle East, what used to be Yugoslavia, and some other places you haven't heard of yet except here.
[01:00:14.890 --> 01:00:31.010]  International security policy, electronic warfare, the next generation of Navy carrier fighters, DOD-wide force reductions, Balkan's Watch with David Isby, documentaries, interviews, technical analysis, oral history, and more, every Tuesday night at 1.30,
[01:00:31.270 --> 01:00:35.470]  only on WBAI Pacifica Radio in New York.
[01:00:39.180 --> 01:00:42.780]  This is a theme music for Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:42.860 --> 01:00:43.160]  Oh, yeah.
[01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:44.420]  An arts magazine.
[01:00:44.780 --> 01:00:46.800]  Live on Wednesday nights at 10.
[01:00:47.020 --> 01:00:48.660]  I'm Janet Coleman, the host.
[01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:49.820]  And I'm David Dozer.
[01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:51.080]  The displaced playwright.
[01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:53.460]  This program used to be called by another name.
[01:00:53.640 --> 01:00:55.180]  Now introducing...
[01:00:55.180 --> 01:00:56.760]  Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:56.980 --> 01:00:58.520]  Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:58.820 --> 01:01:02.960]  Still featuring great interviews with scintillating authors and provocative artists.
[01:01:03.300 --> 01:01:03.980]  Or vice versa.
[01:01:04.240 --> 01:01:06.800]  The latest in theater books, art, and performance.
[01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:09.500]  What's new on the Rialto and Ludlow Street.
[01:01:09.740 --> 01:01:13.360]  And one or two of the 137 Poison Arts Minutes.
[01:01:13.460 --> 01:01:13.840]  A play.
[01:01:14.140 --> 01:01:17.620]  Radio minutes that take up to 12 and a half hours to produce.
[01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:19.900]  A marketing idea still ahead of its time.
[01:01:20.060 --> 01:01:20.980]  Listen to this tune.
[01:01:21.200 --> 01:01:22.940]  Oh, I can see you cats now.
[01:01:23.100 --> 01:01:23.240]  Hey.
[01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:24.440]  Stop clawing the furniture.
[01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:24.900]  Get down.
[01:01:25.020 --> 01:01:25.900]  Head for the radio.
[01:01:26.500 --> 01:01:26.860]  Yes?
[01:01:27.380 --> 01:01:29.140]  Cat Radio Café.
[01:01:29.340 --> 01:01:32.800]  Cat Radio Café, Wednesday nights at 10, here on WBAI.
[01:01:33.720 --> 01:01:34.940]  Hey, do cats drink coffee?
[01:01:35.120 --> 01:01:36.380]  If it's brewed with fish.
[01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:37.800]  Hey, do cats drink coffee?