[00:00.000 --> 00:00.940]  ...South Dakota.
[00:11.180 --> 00:21.340]  Free Speech Radio News is produced at Pacifica Station's KPFA in Berkeley and WBAI in New York City and community radio station WMNF in Tampa, Florida.
[00:22.140 --> 00:32.140]  This newscast was produced by Aaron Glantz, Headlines Editor Randy Zimmerman, Technical Producer Jay Padgett-Seekins, We had web support from Vanessa Tate and Leslie Holmes.
[00:32.540 --> 00:36.260]  And this is Radio Station WBAI in New York where it's 7 o'clock.
[00:37.120 --> 00:38.320]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:13.720 --> 02:15.640]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York.
[02:15.700 --> 02:16.440]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:16.440 --> 02:21.840]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the second time in this time slot.
[02:21.920 --> 02:28.260]  And, yeah, we neglected because we didn't know three weeks ago, or actually two weeks ago, to tell you that we weren't on last week.
[02:28.740 --> 02:31.880]  We were preempted the second week of our existence in this new time slot.
[02:32.420 --> 02:35.940]  And if you're listening for Mishu Kaku and Explorations, well, you missed it.
[02:36.000 --> 02:36.940]  It was on at 5 o'clock.
[02:37.060 --> 02:42.300]  It's part of the whole new programming navigational chart that we've instilled here at BAI.
[02:42.300 --> 02:53.520]  And if you want one of your own navigational charts, I think you have to go to our website, WBAI.org, and find out when all the new shows are on.
[02:53.640 --> 02:56.820]  Or actually when all the old shows are on in their new time slots.
[02:57.100 --> 02:57.920]  Something like that.
[02:59.940 --> 03:02.520]  A lot has happened in the past couple of weeks.
[03:03.960 --> 03:05.060]  Some good, some bad.
[03:06.440 --> 03:07.740]  Let's focus on the bad.
[03:08.420 --> 03:10.920]  I think we like doing that more than anything.
[03:11.020 --> 03:11.780]  Waterjack is back.
[03:12.180 --> 03:12.780]  Yeah, I'm back.
[03:12.920 --> 03:13.620]  Mr. Oma's here.
[03:13.820 --> 03:14.000]  Hello.
[03:14.200 --> 03:14.920]  And Jim's over there.
[03:15.440 --> 03:16.280]  Yes, I am.
[03:16.360 --> 03:16.680]  How you doing?
[03:18.260 --> 03:22.260]  Well, we had a ruling come down, which we were expecting.
[03:22.420 --> 03:24.220]  In fact, we knew exactly what day was going to happen.
[03:25.760 --> 03:31.040]  And we knew that the initial reports of something good happening were premature, and that something bad could indeed happen.
[03:31.120 --> 03:32.420]  And in fact, something bad did happen.
[03:32.800 --> 03:33.440]  The U.S.
[03:33.740 --> 03:37.600]  Librarian of Congress released his final decision.
[03:37.820 --> 03:39.600]  I like how this guy has no name at all.
[03:40.740 --> 03:42.340]  If anybody knows the name of the U.S.
[03:42.640 --> 03:45.500]  Librarian of Congress, if we're allowed to know this kind of thing, please let us know.
[03:45.800 --> 03:49.380]  I found it when I was listening to the show, you know, remotely.
[03:49.520 --> 03:50.260]  You found the guy's name?
[03:50.360 --> 03:51.600]  Yeah, but I don't have it anymore.
[03:51.640 --> 03:52.800]  Was it like Archibald something?
[03:52.800 --> 03:53.720]  No, no, no.
[03:53.840 --> 03:55.420]  People make fun of you for having...
[03:55.420 --> 03:55.660]  It was a normal name.
[03:55.760 --> 03:56.260]  Normal name?
[03:56.420 --> 03:56.600]  Yeah.
[03:57.080 --> 04:01.780]  Well, this guy must have some issues with the rest of us, because he certainly came down hard.
[04:01.940 --> 04:02.700]  It's on the website.
[04:03.080 --> 04:04.000]  Yeah, I guess it is.
[04:04.880 --> 04:08.840]  But the royalty rates for internet music broadcasting have been released.
[04:08.980 --> 04:22.700]  Now, the funny thing is, just straight out of 1984, you look at CNN, you look at all the major news sites that are run by all these major corporations that rejoice at things like this, and it's victory for webcasting.
[04:22.900 --> 04:24.500]  Literally, victory for webcasting.
[04:24.660 --> 04:33.340]  A great victory was achieved, and, you know, the rates were cut in half as to what people have to pay if they dare to play something.
[04:33.420 --> 04:41.400]  Like, for instance, right now, this song, which I'm not going to tell you what it is, because I'm afraid someone's going to come after me if I do, this is going out over the internet right now.
[04:41.620 --> 04:42.060]  That's right.
[04:42.120 --> 04:47.940]  We have people listening all over the world, and, not only that, we archive the shows.
[04:47.940 --> 04:49.120]  So, people can listen.
[04:49.260 --> 04:53.140]  This could be the year 3000, for all we know, you know, and someone's listening to it right now.
[04:53.500 --> 05:04.780]  They're telling us that we are now responsible for every time somebody listens to a song on the internet through our radio program, any radio program, actually.
[05:05.380 --> 05:14.600]  Now, yeah, okay, it's nice and cheap because we're a non-commercial radio station, so the actual rate is 0.02 cents.
[05:14.740 --> 05:16.020]  Not two cents, 0.02 cents.
[05:16.140 --> 05:17.700]  Two one-hundredths of a cent.
[05:18.160 --> 05:19.220]  Yeah, it's nothing, you know?
[05:19.320 --> 05:20.300]  Anybody can afford that.
[05:20.700 --> 05:26.620]  But that's two one-hundredths of a cent per listener, per performance.
[05:26.900 --> 05:35.620]  So, let's say you're a radio station that broadcasts music, like a college radio station, and you have, say, 20 songs an hour.
[05:35.620 --> 05:39.300]  I think that's a pretty good estimate, you know, if you play short songs.
[05:39.660 --> 05:46.780]  And if you don't play short songs, okay, we'll say instead of being 24 hours, it's only 20 hours, you know, a day of music.
[05:46.780 --> 05:50.100]  So that's something like 400 songs a day.
[05:50.720 --> 05:59.400]  You multiply all that out, and it comes to the staggering figure of $29.20 a year for one listener.
[06:00.380 --> 06:13.500]  Now, if you have more than that, though, if you have, say, I don't know, a couple of hundred listeners, or even a thousand listeners, it really starts to move up there really fast.
[06:13.660 --> 06:15.200]  And it's retroactive to 1998.
[06:15.620 --> 06:21.820]  So you have to come up with all this money right away from listeners that were listening to music.
[06:21.980 --> 06:34.520]  But the point is, even if it's free, even if it doesn't cost anything, the fact is that they expect anybody broadcasting on the internet to keep track of who's listening to what.
[06:34.580 --> 06:36.940]  Now, that's what I think is the really scary part of all this.
[06:38.200 --> 06:40.140]  We don't have the capability of doing that.
[06:40.180 --> 06:42.300]  We don't have the will to do that, for one thing.
[06:42.360 --> 06:48.660]  We don't want to be monitoring our listeners and finding out what songs they're listening to and when they tune in and when they tune out.
[06:49.040 --> 06:51.900]  Now, this is only applying to internet listeners.
[06:51.980 --> 06:54.940]  Imagine if that applied to listeners over the radio.
[06:54.940 --> 06:58.960]  So everybody would be realizing what a tremendous invasion of privacy that is.
[06:59.440 --> 07:08.300]  But because the internet is something that they feel they can harness in, they're putting these ridiculous regulations.
[07:10.300 --> 07:11.840]  And I don't know where this is going to lead.
[07:13.340 --> 07:14.400]  It's not a good thing.
[07:14.460 --> 07:16.500]  A lot of internet broadcasters have already shut down.
[07:16.680 --> 07:17.960]  I think it's kind of premature to do that.
[07:18.060 --> 07:22.580]  I think it's time to fight this kind of a thing and to stand up and say, we're not going to do this.
[07:22.580 --> 07:25.780]  We're not going to monitor our listeners and tell you what they're listening to.
[07:26.620 --> 07:30.120]  And I don't really see how they can challenge that.
[07:30.360 --> 07:34.680]  How are they going to force you to report who your listeners are or what they listen to?
[07:36.360 --> 07:37.120]  It's ridiculous.
[07:37.340 --> 07:46.320]  Now, keep in mind that major broadcasters can get a million more listeners from people out in the street listening to radio.
[07:46.420 --> 07:51.340]  A million more can just suddenly tune in and they don't have to invest anything else because it's radio.
[07:51.380 --> 07:54.780]  There's no equipment that they have to put in for more people to listen.
[07:54.980 --> 08:03.680]  On the internet, however, if you have a thousand more people or a million more people listening, not that we ever approach numbers like that, you have to somehow have bandwidth for all that.
[08:03.780 --> 08:05.400]  So you're already paying for it.
[08:06.340 --> 08:13.700]  Now, if a million people suddenly start listening to the radio outside that were never listening before, do you think fees apply to them?
[08:13.800 --> 08:15.920]  No, it only applies to webcasters.
[08:16.480 --> 08:18.780]  Why do they have it in for webcasting?
[08:18.940 --> 08:20.440]  Well, I think I have an answer to that.
[08:22.060 --> 08:24.320]  You know what it's like to start a radio station?
[08:24.500 --> 08:26.460]  Well, we've talked about this over the years.
[08:27.080 --> 08:30.560]  LPFM was something that came out of the whole pirate radio struggle.
[08:31.020 --> 08:38.600]  And it was a bone thrown to us to say, okay, you can have the right to broadcast as long as you follow these rules.
[08:38.800 --> 08:50.660]  Of course, the rules make it so that it's impossible for anybody to actually have a radio station because all the commercial stations are going to claim interference even though you're two or three frequencies away and 10 watts to their 50,000.
[08:50.820 --> 08:52.000]  They're going to claim interference.
[08:52.440 --> 08:56.900]  Result being, not a single LPFM station has gone on the air in the New York area.
[08:57.020 --> 08:58.980]  Not a single one will, according to the regulations.
[09:01.220 --> 09:02.840]  It's hard to start a radio station.
[09:02.940 --> 09:03.480]  It's expensive.
[09:03.800 --> 09:04.840]  It's an elitist club.
[09:05.100 --> 09:12.180]  If you're not part of Clear Channel, you're not going to get on the air unless you start your own radio station on the internet.
[09:12.980 --> 09:18.600]  What a threat to the status quo and what a threat that has to be shut down through whatever means possible.
[09:19.400 --> 09:20.640]  And that's what we're seeing here.
[09:20.800 --> 09:21.940]  The story is not yet over.
[09:22.180 --> 09:24.060]  And we're going to continue following this.
[09:24.220 --> 09:27.100]  People are asking us, will this affect our shows?
[09:27.840 --> 09:33.740]  Will this be something that we have to pay for for new and archived versions of Off the Hook?
[09:34.060 --> 09:36.640]  I'll tell you right now, we're not taking Off the Hook off the net.
[09:36.640 --> 09:39.760]  We're not taking Off the Hook off the archives.
[09:40.440 --> 09:49.360]  And we're not implementing any measures to control how many people we send this to or who listens and what they listen to.
[09:49.380 --> 09:50.960]  We're not going to be reporting any of that information.
[09:51.380 --> 09:54.540]  So we'll see what happens next after making that statement.
[09:55.100 --> 09:56.480]  Let me just get this straight.
[09:56.760 --> 10:00.840]  Now, the broadcaster, the webcaster, is supposed to keep track of who listens.
[10:01.660 --> 10:06.280]  I just thought of an obscure free speech problem with this.
[10:06.440 --> 10:08.040]  You know what oi music is?
[10:08.240 --> 10:08.780]  Yeah, yeah.
[10:08.780 --> 10:09.260]  Okay.
[10:09.840 --> 10:12.540]  For those who don't, it's neo-Nazi...
[10:12.540 --> 10:14.220]  It's hard rock, isn't it?
[10:14.340 --> 10:16.080]  I wouldn't say it's neo-Nazi music.
[10:16.220 --> 10:17.600]  I think that's a misnomer.
[10:17.940 --> 10:21.940]  Some neo-Nazis may get into that, but some neo-Nazis got into Wagner as well.
[10:22.060 --> 10:22.980]  So it's not really a fair...
[10:22.980 --> 10:23.860]  Okay, that's true.
[10:25.180 --> 10:26.940]  Well, he died well before.
[10:27.040 --> 10:36.900]  But anyway, suppose there's some genre of music out there that is totally identified with whatever political persuasion you want to mention.
[10:37.120 --> 10:38.640]  For argument's sake, neo-Nazis.
[10:38.780 --> 10:40.020]  What better way to track people like that?
[10:40.420 --> 10:40.820]  Exactly.
[10:41.220 --> 10:42.960]  It becomes a free speech issue.
[10:43.980 --> 10:47.320]  So, but of course they can say, well, you know, you're broadcasting it.
[10:47.400 --> 10:50.760]  You have the perfect right to broadcast it, but you're not keeping track.
[10:50.960 --> 10:54.780]  Well, yes, but keeping track would mean that you could shut down our listeners.
[10:54.780 --> 10:55.840]  Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
[10:55.840 --> 10:57.520]  We just want to get the royalties.
[10:57.860 --> 10:58.260]  Yeah.
[10:58.440 --> 10:58.560]  Bull.
[10:58.780 --> 10:59.140]  Yeah.
[10:59.720 --> 11:04.720]  And of course, the other way of fighting this is to stop playing RIAA music in the first place.
[11:04.920 --> 11:13.120]  According to Industry of America, the people who are constantly trying to get fees for all kinds of things that they shouldn't be getting fees for, such as selling used CDs.
[11:13.120 --> 11:14.040]  That's the latest thing.
[11:14.120 --> 11:18.900]  They want to, you know, collect an extra fee for people that dare to sell used CDs if they have any right to.
[11:19.440 --> 11:19.820]  You know?
[11:20.360 --> 11:28.200]  I mean, if you just think this over logically, you're selling something that you own, and somehow they feel they're entitled to a fee because you're doing that.
[11:28.680 --> 11:35.560]  You know, yeah, the poor starving artists, they keep rolling that out, but yet they never give anything to the poor starving artists.
[11:35.680 --> 11:38.600]  Do you think any money from this is ever going to make it to any musicians?
[11:38.820 --> 11:39.260]  It's not.
[11:42.140 --> 11:47.280]  So that's some of the bad stuff that happened over the past couple of weeks.
[11:48.900 --> 11:50.660]  It's, you know, not too surprising.
[11:52.460 --> 11:53.180]  Good stuff.
[11:53.340 --> 11:55.040]  Okay, what are some of the good things that happened?
[11:55.100 --> 11:57.160]  Well, we announced our panels for H2K2.
[11:57.360 --> 11:58.800]  They're up on the website right now.
[11:58.940 --> 12:01.980]  H2K2 is only about two weeks and change away.
[12:03.260 --> 12:06.780]  And we have well over 50 panels.
[12:07.560 --> 12:09.760]  Well over 50 panels happening in a weekend.
[12:09.900 --> 12:12.480]  And that's a lot.
[12:12.520 --> 12:13.400]  It really is.
[12:13.560 --> 12:15.220]  It's more than we've ever had before.
[12:15.220 --> 12:18.660]  And there's a lot of excitement about that.
[12:18.800 --> 12:20.760]  Pre-registration is closing this week, though.
[12:20.920 --> 12:31.680]  So if you intend to go and you want to use a credit card and register and all that kind of thing and not wait online on the day, you know, it might be hot and muggy like it is today.
[12:32.100 --> 12:40.140]  Imagine having to wait online, you know, trying to get in to the nice air-conditioned building that we have for all these panels.
[12:40.740 --> 12:45.980]  Whereas if you pre-register, you can just waltz in and show you a little receipt and that's it.
[12:46.760 --> 12:53.480]  So www.h2k2.net or www.2600.com has all the information on that.
[12:54.300 --> 13:00.960]  H2K2, the fourth HOPE conference here in New York City sponsored by us folks here.
[13:01.880 --> 13:03.100]  Off the hook, 2600.
[13:03.800 --> 13:04.860]  All that kind of thing.
[13:05.220 --> 13:07.460]  So, Mr. Rome, you've got a panel coming up.
[13:07.600 --> 13:09.520]  Yeah, I have the retro-computing panel.
[13:09.520 --> 13:10.360]  Retro-computing.
[13:10.560 --> 13:12.080]  We're going to be talking about old computers.
[13:12.880 --> 13:14.260]  How did you get into old computers?
[13:15.240 --> 13:16.220]  I have no idea.
[13:16.680 --> 13:24.300]  Because I remember you did this panel in 2000 when we had H2K and it got a lot of attention.
[13:24.580 --> 13:26.740]  A lot of people are really into old computers.
[13:26.820 --> 13:29.680]  Now, when you say old computers, you mean like Commodore 64s or Univex?
[13:29.840 --> 13:31.760]  Or, you know, what kind of computers are we talking about here?
[13:32.060 --> 13:33.260]  Pre-286.
[13:34.480 --> 13:39.480]  Basically, Commodore 64s all the way back to all terraces.
[13:40.320 --> 13:43.100]  The old boxy pre-Windows, all that.
[13:43.500 --> 13:44.120]  Pre-DOS.
[13:45.340 --> 13:47.160]  Okay, so if people have computers like that...
[13:47.160 --> 13:47.940]  Definitely bring them.
[13:48.140 --> 13:52.440]  Bring them by, but make sure they're working because we don't want a lot of, you know, junk that doesn't work.
[13:52.660 --> 13:54.500]  We're setting up a...
[13:54.500 --> 13:55.560]  kind of a neighborhood.
[13:56.340 --> 13:56.780]  Basically...
[13:56.780 --> 13:57.400]  Okay, imagine this.
[13:57.520 --> 13:58.680]  Imagine a storefront.
[13:58.780 --> 13:59.660]  A huge storefront.
[13:59.780 --> 14:00.900]  It used to be a sports authority.
[14:01.400 --> 14:03.920]  That's the space that we have just for the network room.
[14:04.160 --> 14:08.580]  All that sports equipment and clothing and, you know, tennis rackets.
[14:08.960 --> 14:11.780]  All that stuff is gone and we're there instead.
[14:12.100 --> 14:17.180]  And we're going to set up tables and aisles and corridors and things like that and make little neighborhoods.
[14:17.400 --> 14:25.060]  And there's going to be a retrocomputing neighborhood where all these old machines will be staring you in the face doing all kinds of things that they haven't done for 20, 30 years.
[14:25.400 --> 14:30.020]  And if you want to be part of that, by all means, bring your computer down, plug it in, see what it can do.
[14:30.480 --> 14:34.060]  And, of course, there'll be more modern, up-to-date computers in that same network.
[14:34.220 --> 14:36.240]  There'll be 802.11 things going on.
[14:36.340 --> 14:41.200]  And on the 18th floor of Hotel Pennsylvania, we'll be having panels at the same time.
[14:41.220 --> 14:42.560]  So it's really going to be something.
[14:42.680 --> 14:43.400]  I'm looking forward to it.
[14:44.080 --> 14:46.800]  But, boy, it's been a lot of work.
[14:46.820 --> 14:49.160]  We've been working on this for the last couple of years.
[14:49.540 --> 14:51.360]  And it finally culminates.
[14:51.580 --> 15:04.420]  Our keynote speaker, Aaron Magruder, the author and creator and artist for the comic strip Boondocks, the one that keeps getting lambasted in the mainstream newspapers for being controversial, fits right in.
[15:04.520 --> 15:09.240]  So he'll be addressing us on the Saturday of that convention.
[15:09.480 --> 15:16.580]  And if you want a complete rundown, with over 50 panels, we could spend more than a whole hour talking about them.
[15:17.220 --> 15:21.960]  Just go to the website, www.h2k2.net, and see the list for yourself.
[15:23.540 --> 15:24.980]  All right, let's continue.
[15:25.220 --> 15:26.680]  And we're going to take some phone calls.
[15:26.780 --> 15:33.200]  We're going to take some phone calls early because we have a guest coming on at 7.30, so we'll take phone calls before that.
[15:33.980 --> 15:35.900]  So, yeah, Rebel, we know it's your anniversary show.
[15:36.020 --> 15:37.200]  Call in if you want to get on.
[15:37.380 --> 15:40.400]  This is the only time in my life I think we're ever going to invite his call.
[15:42.720 --> 15:43.200]  Let's see.
[15:43.300 --> 15:44.140]  What else is going on?
[15:44.900 --> 15:48.720]  Well, in Canada, this is kind of messed up.
[15:48.880 --> 16:01.020]  The Canadian military and the RCMP have been given special authorization to jam radio and cell phone signals during the G8 summit next week and during the Pope's visit to Canada in July.
[16:01.440 --> 16:02.400]  Those two events.
[16:03.040 --> 16:06.960]  G8 summit and the Pope's visit don't try to make any phone calls in Canada.
[16:07.180 --> 16:12.380]  It's the first time police or the military have ever been allowed to block signals, according to an official.
[16:12.380 --> 16:20.860]  The authorization allows the Department of National Defense and the RCMP to use jamming devices around Calgary and...
[16:20.860 --> 16:25.880]  Okay, I'm sorry to all the people in Alberta for mispronouncing this, but I'm going to mispronounce it anyway.
[16:27.600 --> 16:28.120]  Kananescus.
[16:29.440 --> 16:29.960]  Kananescus.
[16:30.220 --> 16:31.240]  It looks like Canada.
[16:31.500 --> 16:32.720]  It's spelled with a K, though.
[16:33.460 --> 16:48.020]  From June 17th to June 29th, so it's already in full swing, for the summit of leaders from a group of eight nations, they will have the same power to jam signals in Toronto from July 16th to July 31st.
[16:48.940 --> 16:51.700]  I can't understand what the logic behind this is.
[16:51.800 --> 16:55.340]  Let's just jam the population so they can't call out and maybe they won't panic.
[16:55.480 --> 16:56.560]  It's a big safety risk.
[16:56.780 --> 16:57.700]  It sure is.
[16:57.980 --> 16:59.460]  I mean, imagine if we did that at our conference.
[16:59.460 --> 17:02.320]  We jammed communications because we didn't want to be bothered.
[17:02.640 --> 17:03.560]  That would be ridiculous.
[17:03.720 --> 17:04.560]  It would be called terrorism.
[17:05.060 --> 17:13.500]  Anyway, the Pope is scheduled to arrive in Canada July 23rd, depart July 29th, though for some reason they're blocking signals from the 16th to the 31st.
[17:15.860 --> 17:22.620]  I think I'm going to call Pope John Paul and tell him about this because I don't think he knows that his visit is causing this kind of mayhem.
[17:23.340 --> 17:30.280]  And the best thing that they say is the RCMP must ensure the safety and security of those attending.
[17:30.840 --> 17:31.740]  Double speak.
[17:32.020 --> 17:36.360]  We're going to ensure the safety and security by taking away the safety and security of people.
[17:36.360 --> 17:40.880]  Well, what about ambulance calls and so on and so forth and people calling 911?
[17:41.200 --> 17:42.780]  If they don't misbehave, they won't block them.
[17:43.020 --> 17:43.300]  I don't know.
[17:43.700 --> 17:47.440]  Yeah, what are people calling 911 that need to call 911?
[17:48.680 --> 17:49.320]  Let's see.
[17:49.540 --> 17:54.620]  It could be used, for example, if there was a threat of a detonation of some type of a remote control device.
[17:55.120 --> 17:59.520]  We could jam the frequencies to make sure nobody could send the signal to that bomb.
[17:59.620 --> 18:01.200]  These people have been watching too much TV.
[18:03.180 --> 18:06.600]  Yeah, what if somebody uses a cell phone to trigger a bomb?
[18:06.740 --> 18:08.580]  Well, how can I have to block all cell phone calls then?
[18:08.780 --> 18:09.260]  Absolutely.
[18:09.300 --> 18:10.300]  It makes perfect sense.
[18:11.080 --> 18:16.080]  The person that said that, by the way, did not know how the jamming would affect cell phones or commercial radio transmissions.
[18:16.560 --> 18:32.280]  The order signed by the Minister of Industry on June 6th exempts the army and police from provisions of the Radio Communication Act which prohibits the interference with or obstruction of radio communication without lawful excuse.
[18:33.020 --> 18:39.580]  The exemption will provide a way to address the problematic application of the prohibitions.
[18:40.560 --> 18:58.140]  It specifies that every reasonable effort shall be made to confine or restrict to the extent possible interference with or obstruction of a radio communication to the smallest physical area, the fewest number of frequencies and the minimum duration required to accomplish the objectives of the interference or obstruction.
[18:58.360 --> 19:01.920]  The objectives of the obstruction and interference.
[19:02.120 --> 19:02.540]  Unbelievable.
[19:05.620 --> 19:06.040]  Unbelievable.
[19:06.360 --> 19:07.440]  Okay, I'm looking ahead here.
[19:07.600 --> 19:13.140]  A survey of 2,000 people last year found about 50% support for jamming in public places.
[19:13.280 --> 19:16.360]  I guess they mean like in theaters and restaurants and things like that.
[19:16.420 --> 19:17.860]  Okay, that's kind of a different issue.
[19:19.660 --> 19:20.820]  That's what's happening in Canada.
[19:22.020 --> 19:23.800]  What's happening here in the U.S.?
[19:24.840 --> 19:28.820]  Well, this is an interesting story that appeared yesterday on the Associated Press.
[19:28.820 --> 19:41.080]  The FBI, the new FBI, is visiting libraries nationwide and checking the reading records of people it suspects of having ties to terrorists or people who might be plotting an attack.
[19:41.760 --> 19:43.880]  How do they know if you might be plotting an attack?
[19:44.160 --> 19:45.920]  I guess you have that look in your eye.
[19:46.580 --> 19:59.420]  The FBI effort authorized by the anti-terrorism law enacted after the September 11th attacks is the first broad government check of library records since the 1970s when prosecutors reined in the practice for fear of abuses.
[20:00.120 --> 20:02.060]  We don't fear those abuses anymore, do we?
[20:02.580 --> 20:03.540]  We welcome them.
[20:03.680 --> 20:04.460]  We welcome the abuses.
[20:05.160 --> 20:10.160]  The Justice Department and the FBI declined to comment Monday because they don't have to.
[20:10.940 --> 20:16.180]  Except they noted that searches are now legal under the Patriot Act that President Bush signed last October.
[20:16.640 --> 20:17.460]  So that's it.
[20:17.560 --> 20:18.000]  You got it.
[20:18.080 --> 20:19.540]  You know, you can't take it away now.
[20:20.420 --> 20:21.700]  We are screwed.
[20:22.400 --> 20:25.700]  Libraries across the nation were reluctant to discuss their dealings with the FBI.
[20:26.180 --> 20:33.100]  The same law that makes the searches legal also makes it a criminal offense for librarians to reveal the details or extent.
[20:33.340 --> 20:34.060]  Can you believe this?
[20:34.100 --> 20:35.520]  This is like a bad science fiction show.
[20:35.880 --> 20:40.760]  I feel like, you know, it's episode 2 of V or something where they're really cracking down on anybody.
[20:42.080 --> 20:50.000]  Well, speaking of the FBI, at H2K2 we're going to have a real kick-ass panel on the FBI and their new panels their new panels their new powers.
[20:50.320 --> 21:01.680]  It'll be a panel discussion with none other than our own Mike Levine here at WBAI and Robert Steele who you might remember from previous HOPE conferences our first keynote speaker in fact.
[21:03.100 --> 21:04.660]  And boy, that's going to be that's going to be fun.
[21:05.380 --> 21:06.280]  Do you want to say something about your panel?
[21:07.680 --> 21:08.380]  Yeah, okay.
[21:08.720 --> 21:09.460]  Okay, introduce yourself.
[21:10.040 --> 21:11.520]  Oh, hey, how's it going Radio Land?
[21:11.880 --> 21:12.520]  This is Java Man.
[21:12.880 --> 21:13.680]  Philadelphia, right?
[21:14.000 --> 21:14.540]  Yeah, Philadelphia.
[21:14.920 --> 21:19.180]  Home of Bernie S and other felons like Shapeshifter and people like that.
[21:19.260 --> 21:19.600]  Will Smith.
[21:20.100 --> 21:20.260]  Yeah.
[21:21.280 --> 21:22.060]  Bill Cosby.
[21:22.260 --> 21:23.100]  Bill Cosby, yes.
[21:23.600 --> 21:24.340]  So what's...
[21:24.340 --> 21:25.260]  You have a couple of panels.
[21:25.560 --> 21:26.560]  I'm going to be doing two things.
[21:26.680 --> 21:30.280]  One, we're going to be doing the hardware Q&A which we thought was quite successful last time.
[21:31.220 --> 21:34.460]  Basically, just people shout out questions about hardware and you have all the answers.
[21:34.540 --> 21:35.720]  Hardware, we'll do...
[21:35.720 --> 21:47.820]  I hope to be tagging up with Binary who does a lot of telco install circuit switch equipment which is not my main area of expertise so it'll be a good way to complement each other.
[21:47.820 --> 21:57.280]  Also, last year we got a lot of questions about modulation and coding systems so I brushed up on that a good bit and so we'll be able to answer some of those questions for everyone.
[21:58.180 --> 22:01.560]  We'll be doing that topic and also there's been...
[22:01.560 --> 22:11.340]  I've moved very much into the networking research community and so I'd like to start bringing some of the networking research that's been going on and into the...
[22:11.340 --> 22:14.840]  back into the hack community and there's a lot of interesting implications.
[22:14.840 --> 22:33.900]  people have really begun to derive the true structure of the internet the actual shape if you will and there's a great deal of implications for survivability under attack for monitoring and for other issues along those lines so I'd like to present those and hopefully there'll be some positive response.
[22:34.060 --> 22:36.940]  Yeah, I think there will be and it's going to be fun.
[22:37.200 --> 22:38.000]  It's fun every year.
[22:38.260 --> 22:38.900]  It's a good time last time.
[22:38.960 --> 22:39.540]  You've been to all of them?
[22:41.140 --> 22:41.540]  No.
[22:41.940 --> 22:42.140]  Okay.
[22:42.360 --> 22:45.460]  But you were at last year were you at Beyond Hope or the first Hope Conference?
[22:45.700 --> 22:46.520]  I was at Beyond Hope.
[22:46.700 --> 22:46.940]  Okay.
[22:47.220 --> 22:48.440]  So you missed the first one then?
[22:48.580 --> 22:49.160]  I missed the first one.
[22:49.200 --> 22:49.640]  In 1994.
[22:49.940 --> 22:50.040]  Okay.
[22:50.120 --> 22:50.760]  But I was...
[22:51.200 --> 22:52.620]  Hope 2000 was a good time.
[22:52.740 --> 22:56.940]  This is the first time we've ever had it two years after the last one instead of three years.
[22:57.120 --> 23:00.180]  We had so much fun the last time we figured, hey, we can do this in two years instead of three.
[23:00.720 --> 23:04.000]  But we're not going to do it every year because we don't want to get predictable.
[23:06.080 --> 23:07.760]  But presumably the next one will be in 2004.
[23:07.800 --> 23:08.260]  We'll see.
[23:09.140 --> 23:09.460]  Okay.
[23:09.640 --> 23:10.200]  A couple letters.
[23:10.360 --> 23:11.080]  Let's take some phone calls.
[23:11.160 --> 23:12.960]  212-209-2900.
[23:14.000 --> 23:18.980]  This person wants to welcome us to Wednesday night.
[23:20.120 --> 23:23.740]  And, yeah, it's great being here on Wednesday night.
[23:28.050 --> 23:32.450]  But there are all kinds of things that you have to get organized when you move to a new time slot.
[23:32.590 --> 23:35.470]  And, of course, that's one of them.
[23:35.530 --> 23:36.790]  This person wants to know...
[23:36.790 --> 23:41.730]  wants us to know that they mistyped the sprintpcs.com website and accidentally misspelled it.
[23:41.790 --> 23:44.490]  They typed in S-P-R-I-T-N...
[23:44.990 --> 23:50.230]  S-P-R-I-T-N-P-C-S dot com is the URL and found myself stumbling upon sexual images.
[23:52.290 --> 23:53.770]  Rather clever, don't you think?
[23:53.990 --> 23:54.950]  Matt in Indianapolis.
[23:55.090 --> 24:00.550]  Yeah, it's what people do for fun, I guess, is register names with misspellings.
[24:00.730 --> 24:02.930]  But, you know, people do the same thing with phone numbers.
[24:03.270 --> 24:10.170]  You know, they register phone numbers with one digit off, 800 numbers, and people call the wrong thing.
[24:10.170 --> 24:12.830]  In fact, some major phone companies do that.
[24:12.930 --> 24:17.370]  We demonstrated that a few weeks ago where, I think it was Agents of Sprint, was it?
[24:17.610 --> 24:18.410]  Or MCI?
[24:18.410 --> 24:18.870]  One of those.
[24:20.270 --> 24:24.210]  They were basically trying to fool people into thinking they reached AT&T or one of their competitors.
[24:24.270 --> 24:24.870]  It was Sprint.
[24:25.030 --> 24:25.550]  Was it Sprint?
[24:25.650 --> 24:25.770]  Yeah.
[24:25.950 --> 24:26.150]  Okay.
[24:26.350 --> 24:37.390]  Well, I guess MCI has enough problems with what happened, what was revealed today with $4 billion somehow being misappropriated, let's just put it that way.
[24:37.730 --> 24:38.250]  Yeah.
[24:39.170 --> 24:42.130]  That company is Enron number two, it appears.
[24:42.350 --> 24:43.350]  WorldCom, MCI.
[24:43.630 --> 24:45.190]  You'll be hearing a lot of scandals.
[24:46.770 --> 24:55.450]  And the Pentagon has had its second major intelligence embarrassment in a week after a teenager in Austria hacked into secret plans including the location of U.S.
[24:55.610 --> 24:56.450]  nuclear missiles.
[24:57.110 --> 24:57.830]  That's right.
[24:57.970 --> 25:03.630]  And these exploits come only days after British surveillance enthusiast John Locker was able to hack into U.S.
[25:03.750 --> 25:05.770]  spy satellite pictures which were unencrypted.
[25:06.430 --> 25:11.530]  And now an FBI team is on its way to Vienna to question this 17-year-old.
[25:12.090 --> 25:16.830]  Their big fear is that Osama bin Laden followers may have enjoyed similar access for months.
[25:18.910 --> 25:26.870]  American protection of its secrets has never been higher since September 11th which really makes me wonder how much they've been protected.
[25:27.410 --> 25:32.650]  Even the most conservative estimates saying at least $37 billion has gone into bolstering security.
[25:33.710 --> 25:39.310]  the teenager in Austria says cracking into the Pentagon was child's play I know my way around the internet.
[25:41.610 --> 25:47.250]  He lived with his mother in Germany for a while when his parents split up eventually moved into a small flat in Vienna where he now lives alone.
[25:47.470 --> 25:51.710]  He added I don't know anyone here apart from my granny so I surf all night on the internet.
[25:52.490 --> 25:53.770]  You see the dangers folks.
[25:54.570 --> 25:56.570]  The internet can be a very dangerous place.
[25:57.450 --> 25:59.650]  Let's go to the other dangerous place the telephones.
[26:00.430 --> 26:01.550]  Good evening you're on the air.
[26:03.670 --> 26:03.990]  here.
[26:03.990 --> 26:04.510]  I think that was Rebel.
[26:05.270 --> 26:05.550]  Nah.
[26:05.830 --> 26:06.610]  Good evening you're on the air.
[26:08.790 --> 26:09.950]  Okay, they hung up.
[26:10.470 --> 26:10.830]  Let's try this one.
[26:10.890 --> 26:11.690]  Good evening you're on the air.
[26:12.670 --> 26:15.650]  Hello and welcome to our 10th anniversary call and...
[26:15.650 --> 26:16.290]  Here we go.
[26:16.410 --> 26:19.950]  Alright, I'm going to turn down the music so that you have the full tension.
[26:20.310 --> 26:21.650]  It's really going to go on for 10 minutes?
[26:21.850 --> 26:23.230]  No, it's not going to go on for 10 minutes Rebel.
[26:23.810 --> 26:24.650]  Who said 10 minutes?
[26:24.850 --> 26:25.590]  I think he did.
[26:26.290 --> 26:28.270]  It's the 10th anniversary not 10 minutes.
[26:29.710 --> 26:30.850]  We've put up I've been with this for 10 years.
[26:30.930 --> 26:31.430]  That's enough.
[26:31.930 --> 26:37.650]  I set up a web... and not a website, but an IRC channel called Pound10Years.
[26:37.790 --> 26:38.430]  Oh, boy.
[26:38.650 --> 26:39.570]  That's 10 years.
[26:39.910 --> 26:43.670]  That's 1-0-Y-E-A-R-S in full one word.
[26:43.890 --> 26:47.730]  And that's on... don't ask me why, but it's on prison.net server.
[26:48.830 --> 26:49.690]  Why is that, Rebel?
[26:50.050 --> 26:50.710]  I don't know.
[26:50.830 --> 26:52.090]  It's an EFnet server.
[26:52.690 --> 26:55.850]  That's the server it's on, and the channel's called 10Years.
[26:55.930 --> 26:57.190]  And if anyone wants to join...
[26:57.190 --> 26:59.490]  If it's on Fnet, it doesn't matter which particular Fnet server.
[26:59.490 --> 27:01.070]  Any Fnet server will get you there.
[27:01.510 --> 27:07.650]  Okay, so anyone can join it, and you can email rebel11103 at yahoo.com.
[27:07.650 --> 27:11.750]  That's all one word, R-E-B-E-L, 11103 at yahoo.com.
[27:11.850 --> 27:12.870]  Why would they be doing this, Rebel?
[27:13.610 --> 27:16.490]  Well, I mean, just to email me for questions and comments.
[27:16.770 --> 27:19.550]  Okay, why don't you say something that people can question and comment about?
[27:19.850 --> 27:32.110]  I'd like to mention that I'm going to be making a CD of all my call-ins, and if anyone wants to buy it, they can buy it at H2K, and the proceeds will go towards phone experiments and research.
[27:32.270 --> 27:34.570]  Well, H2K was two years ago, and I didn't see you selling it.
[27:34.570 --> 27:35.270]  H2K, too, I'm sorry.
[27:35.410 --> 27:35.590]  Oh, okay.
[27:35.870 --> 27:36.330]  All right.
[27:36.410 --> 27:46.190]  Now, I'd like to mention that we've learned a lot over the past decade, and people from all over the world find our comments interesting and enjoy them.
[27:47.890 --> 27:48.310]  Yeah, right.
[27:48.750 --> 27:50.070]  Why would you say anything wrong?
[27:50.230 --> 27:51.290]  We could just distribute it over the web.
[27:51.570 --> 27:52.750]  Yeah, you could just distribute it over the web.
[27:52.750 --> 27:57.330]  I could do that, but, I mean, I'd like to give it out in person so that people could just pay me in person.
[27:57.510 --> 27:58.310]  I mean, I don't...
[27:58.930 --> 28:00.910]  I think you revealed your motives pretty clearly.
[28:01.010 --> 28:02.470]  All right, well, let's continue here.
[28:02.850 --> 28:09.910]  Now, I'd like to demonstrate dumb voicemail systems like New Jersey Transit, but before I do, New Jersey Bell still...
[28:09.910 --> 28:16.090]  Well, Verizon, New Jersey, still charges $1 a touch cone if you're at a residence and $2 if you're at a business.
[28:16.270 --> 28:22.270]  That's the kind of shocking revelations that you have revealed over the past 10 years that I think are very worthwhile.
[28:22.810 --> 28:26.370]  The fact that they still charge for touchdowns someplace is simply unbelievable to me.
[28:26.450 --> 28:35.550]  Also, things don't work anymore over the past 10 years, such as AT&T, when you're at a hotel, don't ask your room number anymore to build your room.
[28:35.670 --> 28:36.610]  Remember that little trick?
[28:37.290 --> 28:38.450]  Well, that was your little trick.
[28:38.530 --> 28:39.230]  Yeah, I remember.
[28:39.430 --> 28:39.670]  I remember.
[28:39.910 --> 28:41.170]  And they don't charge...
[28:41.170 --> 28:43.670]  When you make a third number call, they call for acceptance now.
[28:43.870 --> 28:44.150]  Mm-hmm.
[28:44.670 --> 28:50.750]  Yeah, and now, you know, and over the past 10 years, just, you know, the telephone has changed, payphones have changed so much.
[28:50.990 --> 28:55.230]  I mean, when you call an operator now, it just takes so much longer to make a phone call.
[28:55.230 --> 28:56.450]  Yeah, no, you're absolutely right about that.
[28:56.470 --> 29:06.710]  In fact, if you listen to our shows 10 years ago or listen to the other show that I was involved in called Brain Damage, you will hear the difference in the phone systems.
[29:06.830 --> 29:09.610]  You'll hear how quickly operators pick up when you call an operator.
[29:09.770 --> 29:11.230]  Almost immediately, they pick up.
[29:11.370 --> 29:12.210]  And now, it takes forever.
[29:12.490 --> 29:14.550]  You'll hear the sounds of the switching going on.
[29:14.630 --> 29:15.910]  You'll hear crossbar switching.
[29:15.910 --> 29:17.210]  You'll hear different kinds of rings.
[29:17.470 --> 29:19.390]  And now, it's just not like that at all.
[29:19.470 --> 29:21.430]  And I feel sorry for people that never got to experience that.
[29:21.610 --> 29:23.870]  I know, you know, the news doesn't tell you the weather anymore.
[29:24.010 --> 29:30.130]  It's like when you listen to the news and they say, there's a bus strike to find alternate routes.
[29:30.370 --> 29:32.210]  Wait, you're veering off the road here.
[29:32.270 --> 29:35.030]  What does the weather on radio have to do with any of this?
[29:35.290 --> 29:38.690]  Because they tell you to go to the five-day forecast, visit our website.
[29:38.910 --> 29:42.690]  And when you visit their website, there's nothing but an advertisement from pop-up on ads.
[29:43.390 --> 29:49.630]  All right, I'm going to have to ask you to steer the bus back onto the topic of telecommunications and technology, not weather forecast on the radio.
[29:50.050 --> 29:52.130]  All right, 10 years ago, you've heard this.
[29:52.970 --> 29:53.330]  Good evening.
[29:54.010 --> 29:54.790]  Hi, am I here?
[29:55.170 --> 29:55.850]  Yes, you are.
[29:56.230 --> 29:56.550]  Hi.
[29:56.750 --> 29:57.130]  How are you doing?
[29:58.190 --> 29:58.510]  How are you doing?
[29:58.510 --> 29:58.770]  Yes.
[29:59.350 --> 30:01.030]  I'd like to talk about the...
[30:01.030 --> 30:01.770]  That's right, folks.
[30:02.090 --> 30:03.890]  It was 10 years ago that you've heard this.
[30:03.890 --> 30:04.370]  Wait a minute.
[30:04.530 --> 30:05.170]  Play the whole thing.
[30:05.250 --> 30:06.030]  I wanted to hear that.
[30:06.030 --> 30:09.410]  Oh, yes.
[30:09.570 --> 30:12.190]  Oh, you were dialing international directorate.
[30:12.370 --> 30:12.570]  Right.
[30:13.870 --> 30:15.370]  When you dial...
[30:15.370 --> 30:18.870]  I don't know if you know this, but when you dial that 800 number...
[30:19.430 --> 30:20.590]  Which 800 number is this?
[30:20.690 --> 30:21.810]  The call APT number?
[30:21.930 --> 30:22.050]  Right.
[30:22.210 --> 30:22.430]  Okay.
[30:23.010 --> 30:24.270]  You cannot...
[30:24.270 --> 30:29.910]  They make it on purpose, so that you cannot place any direct dial calls.
[30:30.230 --> 30:31.590]  In other words, you have to...
[30:32.330 --> 30:37.980]  When you use that number, you can only place a call if it's correct or a calling card.
[30:38.140 --> 30:38.240]  Right.
[30:38.300 --> 30:39.220]  Well, that is meant for...
[30:39.220 --> 30:41.180]  That number is sort of a substitute for zero.
[30:41.420 --> 30:41.580]  Okay.
[30:41.840 --> 30:42.740]  All right.
[30:43.640 --> 30:45.500]  That sure does take us down memory lane.
[30:46.880 --> 30:48.360]  Yeah, and also...
[30:48.360 --> 30:50.220]  We're all just wondering for having heard that.
[30:50.500 --> 30:50.680]  Yeah.
[30:51.360 --> 30:54.240]  And also, I'd like to mention that dumb voicemail system.
[30:54.580 --> 30:57.060]  I can't demonstrate they're not because we don't really have much time.
[30:57.060 --> 30:57.940]  No, we certainly don't.
[30:58.160 --> 31:05.020]  When you call something, and it says, like, for example, New Jersey Transit, welcome to New Jersey Transit, you press zero because you don't want to...
[31:05.020 --> 31:06.120]  Sometimes you don't have time.
[31:06.280 --> 31:07.480]  You don't want to go through all the minutes.
[31:07.780 --> 31:12.080]  I mean, you press zero, and it says, first of all, it asks you if you have a touchtone phone.
[31:12.280 --> 31:17.720]  And obviously, New Jersey Transit, they're probably saying, do you have one of those newfangled phones?
[31:17.900 --> 31:20.740]  You know, that new service called touchtone?
[31:21.600 --> 31:21.920]  Mm-hmm.
[31:22.200 --> 31:24.280]  You know, we only invented it 30 years ago.
[31:24.500 --> 31:25.280]  You don't have it yet?
[31:25.860 --> 31:26.220]  That's...
[31:26.220 --> 31:28.000]  We've got only $1 a month for it.
[31:28.080 --> 31:29.040]  Something to get very upset about.
[31:29.120 --> 31:29.260]  I know.
[31:29.440 --> 31:31.420]  Okay, Rebel, now we're going to have to wrap this up.
[31:31.420 --> 31:35.320]  So, any thoughts on, God forbid, the next 10 years?
[31:36.560 --> 31:38.640]  Well, I will be at H2K2.
[31:38.660 --> 31:42.020]  I'd like to have a panel, well, panel, discussion, talk, whatever.
[31:42.260 --> 31:42.560]  I don't know.
[31:42.680 --> 31:43.660]  I've emailed you about this.
[31:44.240 --> 31:46.600]  No, actually, I haven't seen an email from you on that.
[31:46.620 --> 31:53.520]  But if you do want to have a panel, we are pretty booked up, but we will have that other room open for unscheduled things.
[31:53.520 --> 31:56.680]  So, you're certainly welcome to rant and rave in there.
[31:57.160 --> 31:58.200]  Like open mic sessions?
[31:58.560 --> 31:59.300]  Pretty much like that.
[31:59.420 --> 32:01.080]  But of course, we want everybody to have a chance.
[32:01.240 --> 32:05.080]  So, you won't be able to do the 23-hour straight marathon thing this time.
[32:05.160 --> 32:13.600]  but the other thing is that what I'd like to do is I'd like to, I'd like to, finish the sentence.
[32:13.760 --> 32:14.540]  That's what you'd like to do.
[32:14.720 --> 32:16.800]  I know you, you're going to, what, play something for us now?
[32:17.020 --> 32:17.440]  I know.
[32:23.520 --> 32:25.020]  Hold on, I'm having some technical problems.
[32:25.320 --> 32:26.540]  That's nothing new.
[32:27.100 --> 32:30.100]  Wait, no, no, no, all right, it's not that I'm having technical problems.
[32:30.500 --> 32:30.720]  Okay.
[32:30.880 --> 32:32.720]  What I'd like to do is the following.
[32:32.940 --> 32:36.860]  I'd like to go on, beyond hope, I would like to have a...
[32:36.860 --> 32:37.680]  Now it's beyond hope?
[32:38.080 --> 32:38.400]  All right.
[32:38.680 --> 32:40.200]  Get the conference name right.
[32:40.340 --> 32:41.660]  I've already been through three of them so far.
[32:41.820 --> 32:42.300]  Yes, I know.
[32:43.020 --> 32:47.360]  Now, email me at rebelactnetconnect.com, I mean, hello?
[32:47.620 --> 32:48.340]  Yes, get it right.
[32:48.480 --> 32:49.100]  It's rebel what?
[32:50.820 --> 32:51.620]  Rebel 11103.
[32:51.800 --> 32:55.940]  That's all one word, rebel11103 at yahoo.com.
[32:56.060 --> 33:00.000]  Are you telling me there are 1,102 other rebels on Yahoo?
[33:00.440 --> 33:01.000]  No.
[33:02.080 --> 33:03.840]  That's a really frightening thought.
[33:06.240 --> 33:08.160]  I'm saying that's my email address.
[33:08.280 --> 33:09.600]  I know it's your email address.
[33:09.880 --> 33:10.940]  I didn't think it was your name.
[33:11.740 --> 33:13.340]  rebel11103 at yahoo.com.
[33:13.520 --> 33:13.840]  That's...
[33:13.840 --> 33:14.240]  All right.
[33:14.560 --> 33:16.440]  I think you've gotten that point across.
[33:16.860 --> 33:18.320]  Let's go to the IRC channel.
[33:18.520 --> 33:19.880]  We have Chibli Kim.
[33:20.380 --> 33:20.620]  Uh-huh.
[33:20.620 --> 33:23.620]  Listen, people can go to the IRC channel on their own.
[33:23.820 --> 33:25.360]  Uh, we're going to go on the radio here.
[33:25.700 --> 33:27.440]  So, rebel, it's been, it's been a pleasure.
[33:27.600 --> 33:28.120]  It's been fun.
[33:28.240 --> 33:31.340]  These last 10 years have been, have been something, and I'm just sorry that they're over.
[33:31.940 --> 33:33.840]  But that's, uh, that's the way it goes.
[33:35.540 --> 33:35.860]  Rebel.
[33:37.220 --> 33:42.640]  Yeah, his contract says that he can only call for the first 10 years, and after that, we're on our own.
[33:43.820 --> 33:44.340]  All right.
[33:44.480 --> 33:51.640]  Now, uh, I've got to make a call now to our, uh, special guest, which, uh, hopefully the phone will allow me to do.
[33:51.860 --> 33:53.480]  Sometimes the phone doesn't work right here.
[33:53.700 --> 33:54.660]  What else is new?
[33:55.220 --> 33:56.840]  Okay, that's the secret code I have to put in.
[33:58.360 --> 34:00.220]  And let's see if we actually get connected.
[34:00.580 --> 34:01.440]  We're getting a ring.
[34:07.900 --> 34:09.100]  That ring could be anywhere.
[34:10.040 --> 34:10.780]  Or anything.
[34:11.160 --> 34:11.560]  Ah.
[34:11.680 --> 34:11.880]  Hello?
[34:12.060 --> 34:12.320]  Hello.
[34:12.540 --> 34:13.500]  That sounds like Kevin Mitnick.
[34:14.720 --> 34:15.320]  It is.
[34:15.400 --> 34:15.900]  How are you doing?
[34:15.900 --> 34:17.880]  It's, uh, I'm doing great.
[34:18.060 --> 34:18.420]  I'm doing great.
[34:18.480 --> 34:19.920]  And just so that you know, this is Emmanuel.
[34:20.160 --> 34:20.820]  You're on Off the Hook.
[34:21.440 --> 34:22.100]  Oh, hi.
[34:22.180 --> 34:22.660]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[34:22.780 --> 34:23.180]  How are you doing?
[34:23.400 --> 34:24.000]  What a surprise.
[34:24.140 --> 34:25.080]  You caught me off guard.
[34:25.080 --> 34:25.620]  I'm sorry.
[34:26.980 --> 34:29.600]  Well, now, uh, Kevin, you've been in the news recently.
[34:30.500 --> 34:40.040]  Yes, I recently, uh, testified at, uh, a hearing where, a client of mine, his name is Eddie Munoz, was suing, well, is suing Sprint.
[34:40.740 --> 34:59.000]  Uh, Eddie runs a, an alcohol service in, in Las Vegas, Nevada, and he believes that, um, his competitors are either hiring, uh, people from the outside or, or people that work within the phone company to either block, divert, you know, or call forward his calls to the,
[34:59.180 --> 35:00.380]  you know, to his competitors.
[35:00.860 --> 35:05.700]  So, I was retained to try to find, to try to get to the bottom of the case.
[35:05.980 --> 35:12.200]  But unfortunately, I didn't, uh, have enough funding to really do the required testing and Sprint wouldn't cooperate.
[35:12.660 --> 35:18.760]  And so, just this week, I was testifying at the public services, services commission about the case.
[35:19.000 --> 35:27.300]  Um, but the most interesting aspect of the case was with respect to Sprint claiming that they'd never been compromised in the past.
[35:27.300 --> 35:41.440]  And back in between the end of 1992 and, and up until the time of my arrest, I fully had compromised, uh, Sprint's, uh, switches, and another system that allowed you to silently monitor calls or seize dial tone.
[35:41.440 --> 35:47.200]  So the, uh, the commission or the, uh, Sprint, you know, claim this is impossible.
[35:47.200 --> 35:48.280]  It could never happen.
[35:48.640 --> 35:53.120]  And then I had a test, and then I testified to that it has already happened.
[35:53.400 --> 35:56.960]  And they, they do have a, they do indeed have a security problem.
[35:57.280 --> 36:04.340]  And then one of the, uh, technical, uh, people on the commissioner staff challenged me saying, well, can you prove that you did it?
[36:04.400 --> 36:06.560]  You know, why should we take your word for it?
[36:06.580 --> 36:08.820]  Because you're writing a book on social engineering.
[36:08.820 --> 36:11.420]  So how can we be assured that you're not just social engineers?
[36:12.460 --> 36:21.420]  And then I told him, I said, well, I do have a storage locker that I had kept for, you know, seven years, but I haven't visited in seven years.
[36:21.520 --> 36:24.500]  And I might have some information regarding it there.
[36:25.060 --> 36:29.020]  So during the lunch break, I went to the storage locker and I found proof.
[36:29.220 --> 36:39.040]  Uh, you know, I, I found, uh, what was called a seedless, which contained, uh, a hundred challenges with the appropriate responses to access, uh, their network.
[36:39.240 --> 36:52.300]  And then when I brought that back to the, the commission, sprints attorneys, uh, vigorously objected to allowing, uh, that document to be introduced, claiming that it wasn't produced in discovery.
[36:52.720 --> 37:00.400]  Well, number one, I didn't know I had the document, uh, until I chucked in the, in the locker, which I haven't been to in many, many, many years.
[37:01.080 --> 37:04.960]  And, uh, uh, and besides, I, I, I'm not a party to the case.
[37:04.960 --> 37:10.080]  So I don't know if I was obligated to turn it over in discovery, but how can you turn over something that you don't know exist yet?
[37:10.080 --> 37:11.980]  So I didn't know I still had it.
[37:12.000 --> 37:13.800]  It's just an, it's an amazing thought.
[37:14.260 --> 37:14.700]  I'm sorry.
[37:14.780 --> 37:15.740]  It's an amazing thought.
[37:15.920 --> 37:20.780]  Just thinking that there's this locker sitting there for seven years and you just went back to it and found what you were looking for.
[37:20.780 --> 37:21.380]  We're just like that.
[37:21.500 --> 37:22.400]  That's, that's unbelievable.
[37:23.100 --> 37:25.900]  Actually, it was kind of interesting because it took me five minutes.
[37:26.080 --> 37:33.800]  I had boxes of paperwork in there and I just got extremely lucky and actually found it within about five minutes.
[37:34.240 --> 37:42.880]  And then I ran it back to the hearing, um, to, uh, uh, attorney, Peter Alpert could introduce it.
[37:42.960 --> 37:51.800]  And, uh, Eddie and, uh, Peter had, had smiles on their face because Sprint was, you know, again, claiming that they've never been breached, nor could anybody breach their security.
[37:52.240 --> 38:08.220]  Uh, and, uh, there was, you know, uh, proof in the pudding that it did indeed happen before, which, you know, which is important for the case because what it means is that what's happening with, Eddie's business could, you know, be, it's likely that it could be,
[38:08.340 --> 38:17.300]  you know, people within, within Sprint that are being paid off to do something, to manipulate his phone services or people gaining access from the outside.
[38:17.560 --> 38:20.500]  Kevin, tell us something about, tell us something about his business.
[38:20.640 --> 38:21.900]  What is it exactly that he does?
[38:22.300 --> 38:24.460]  Well, it's an interesting business.
[38:24.480 --> 38:30.320]  It's, in Las Vegas, they have a lot of alcohol massage and alcohol dancers.
[38:30.580 --> 38:43.620]  So, what, uh, his business is, if you want, you know, some girl to come to your room and do a new dance for you, I, I, I presume that's the only thing that happens in the room because prostitution is illegal in Clark County.
[38:44.260 --> 38:57.920]  Um, and, uh, so, what he does is he advertises, uh, on the strip and he puts out these newspaper, you know, these newspapers that, you know, have pictures of the girls and the phone numbers to call and yada, yada, yada.
[38:57.920 --> 39:05.440]  And then, and then people in that visit Las Vegas pick up one of these newspapers and, you know, call the phone numbers contained within.
[39:05.740 --> 39:07.820]  And then they get to, uh, Eddie's business.
[39:08.040 --> 39:10.600]  And then Eddie's, Eddie dispatches the girl or, or whatever.
[39:10.600 --> 39:21.580]  And what's been happening is some of the, the people that, some of, uh, his workers would be dispatched to a, to a room and yet they would find their competitor beat them to it.
[39:21.760 --> 39:31.820]  Or at one occasion, um, his business was called and it was actually like diverted to his, um, competitor on one occasion.
[39:31.820 --> 39:34.920]  I didn't witness that exact occasion, but that's what I was told.
[39:35.260 --> 39:40.460]  Uh, but most interesting is the guy receives calls.
[39:40.980 --> 39:45.300]  Uh, that he, on his bill, he gets billed because he has 800 service.
[39:45.540 --> 39:50.440]  So he's responsible for paying the billing and he receives calls that he never gets.
[39:50.680 --> 39:59.140]  He receives billing for calls or what, or, or calls that are under like, uh, 30 seconds in duration, but have never been completed through his equipment.
[39:59.480 --> 40:03.860]  And also sometimes he receives calls that he never received a bill for.
[40:04.780 --> 40:17.120]  Um, and it's unlikely that the caller had identified the number that's mapped to the 800 number, because that's always a possibility because as you well know, that every 800 number maps to a POPs line or a DID number.
[40:17.840 --> 40:22.980]  So, uh, so that would be a way to circumvent the billing on an incoming call.
[40:22.980 --> 40:28.380]  Is that, is that still true, Kevin, that, that every 800 number maps to a DID number or can there be pseudo numbers now?
[40:28.780 --> 40:43.580]  Well, it could be virtual numbers, but, uh, uh, how his service is set up is, uh, his numbers map to, each 800 number maps to, uh, a DID, uh, a DID number that's in the hunt group.
[40:44.120 --> 40:46.860]  So, um, it just hunts if it's busy.
[40:47.880 --> 40:48.320]  Fascinating.
[40:48.360 --> 40:50.220]  Yeah, I think he has a hundred, a hundred DID numbers.
[40:50.340 --> 40:52.180]  I guess you just call it virtual numbers.
[40:52.320 --> 40:54.820]  So, how wide open was their system?
[40:54.940 --> 40:57.060]  How easy would it have been for somebody to get in and do something?
[40:57.520 --> 40:59.480]  Well, it was really simple back then.
[40:59.480 --> 41:05.380]  And the reason I actually breached their system back then is because at that time I was kind of hiding from U.S.
[41:05.500 --> 41:08.200]  government forces, like the FBI and the U.S.
[41:08.340 --> 41:08.620]  Marshals.
[41:09.020 --> 41:17.280]  So, what I did is every town that I visited, I, I went about compromising the telephone infrastructure in that town.
[41:17.520 --> 41:26.860]  And also my, my mother and grandmother lived here, so I wanted to determine if the phone company or, or anyone for that matter had put an intercept on their telephone lines.
[41:26.860 --> 41:34.400]  And I did indeed find that there was an intercept on both of their telephone lines when I was on the land, so to speak.
[41:34.520 --> 41:35.600]  But that wasn't through the switch.
[41:35.600 --> 41:38.880]  That was through a physical inspection at the frame.
[41:39.160 --> 41:47.720]  But it was just a simple, you know, each, each DMS 100 in the Las Vegas area had a dial in, a 300-bar dial-in number.
[41:49.320 --> 41:53.200]  And, and in the beginning, the dial-in number wasn't even restricted.
[41:53.480 --> 41:55.180]  It wasn't even on a class of service.
[41:55.420 --> 41:57.320]  It's just that anybody can dial it.
[41:57.400 --> 42:01.540]  And as long as you have a username and password to access the switch, you were in.
[42:01.760 --> 42:06.860]  And Northern Telecom, at the time, now it's Nortel, is the one that, you know, manufactured the switch.
[42:06.860 --> 42:17.040]  And they had a support group out of Texas that had a particular login identifier that they used to support the switch, you know, all the, all the switches that they sent to customers.
[42:17.640 --> 42:20.660]  And the password was easily guessable.
[42:20.860 --> 42:24.780]  So, that account had, you know, full administrator privileges on the switch.
[42:25.060 --> 42:28.320]  And so, it was quite, you know, quite easy to get into the switch.
[42:28.460 --> 42:38.740]  But the, the system that, that was the most interesting that I think shocked the commission, it was a system called Callers, spelled C-A-L-R-S.
[42:38.820 --> 42:47.960]  And this system was used by, I guess, the test board or whatever department within Sprint Central at the time tested subscriber loops.
[42:48.440 --> 42:55.020]  And, what the system allowed you to do is actually silently monitor any loop or actually seize dial tone.
[42:55.120 --> 43:02.980]  So, if you wanted to pull dial tone of anybody in the Las Vegas area, you can make it appear as if a phone call was directly dialed from their telephone line.
[43:03.120 --> 43:04.220]  It's pretty scary.
[43:04.340 --> 43:04.840]  Yeah, it is.
[43:04.920 --> 43:13.900]  If somebody has the capability to make direct calls off your telephone line because, you know, they can call certain things and incriminate you and yet you never really did it.
[43:14.040 --> 43:17.640]  It was an attacker that hacked into the telephone network to do it.
[43:19.340 --> 43:20.880]  So, it's a...
[43:20.880 --> 43:24.160]  So, that was, I think, a more...
[43:27.960 --> 43:33.300]  That system was much more scarier than getting into a DMS-100 switch, which is common nowadays.
[43:33.460 --> 43:33.660]  Right.
[43:33.860 --> 43:38.300]  Well, would you say anybody has the ability to do this now inside the phone company?
[43:38.400 --> 43:40.280]  Anybody with a technical background?
[43:41.060 --> 43:55.020]  Well, what they did to improve their security back then is they set the lines up on deny terminate, which meant that the number still existed, but when you tried to call it, it would give the same Autocron disconnect recording.
[43:55.720 --> 44:01.520]  And I quickly figured it out that they didn't really change the number, that they simply put it on deny terminate.
[44:01.620 --> 44:18.900]  So, all I did at that time was call a different department within the phone company that processes orders on a switch, and I simply just had one of the clerks change the line class code or take the feature, the deny terminate feature off that particular line so I can dial into the switch.
[44:19.060 --> 44:33.640]  And then the one that was done dialing into the switch, since that switch actually, which was weird The dial-in number to the switch actually was served by the same switch that I was dialing in, so I was able to put Deny Terminate back on.
[44:33.780 --> 44:39.160]  And if I put Deny Terminate back on while I was using that line, it wouldn't take effect to the next phone call.
[44:41.020 --> 44:43.660]  So I don't know how they protect themselves these days.
[44:43.700 --> 44:52.740]  They probably use time-based tokens or some stronger form of authentication like access cards, but then again, maybe they're relying on the old security.
[44:52.740 --> 44:53.940]  I have no idea.
[44:53.940 --> 44:58.940]  Was the phone company always... I'm sorry, was the phone company always known as Sprint, or was it a different name back then?
[44:59.260 --> 45:01.420]  Yeah, it was Centell, and I think Sprint...
[45:01.420 --> 45:01.880]  Centell.
[45:02.340 --> 45:04.120]  Yeah, Centell, Central Telephone.
[45:04.860 --> 45:11.420]  Okay, it was one of the independents, and then... because Sprint doesn't have very many local central offices, do they?
[45:12.020 --> 45:13.040]  I don't think so.
[45:14.140 --> 45:28.700]  But at the time, it was very interesting, because you'd think if somebody had the mind to do something really malicious or make a lot of money, having full control of every telephone, circuit, or loop within the Las Vegas metropolitan area...
[45:28.700 --> 45:29.020]  Yeah.
[45:29.260 --> 45:36.960]  ...I think could have been used to really do something malicious, but of course I never had that intent.
[45:37.240 --> 45:38.180]  Kevin, one more thing.
[45:38.320 --> 45:44.980]  I want to take some phone calls, too, but you had another incident where you were testifying, but this time you were testifying on your own behalf.
[45:45.200 --> 45:46.540]  This was in Washington, D.C.
[45:46.540 --> 46:01.760]  Yeah, the Federal Communications Commission decided that when I attempted to renew my amateur radio license, that they're calling my character qualifications into question because of my hacking convictions.
[46:02.600 --> 46:17.560]  Despite the fact that I'd never been accused of violating any amateur radio rules and regulations, that my case was solely about computers and telephones, they decided to go ahead and challenge renewal of the license.
[46:17.560 --> 46:26.860]  So I had to hire an attorney, and, you know, kind of like, you know, the burden that proves on me to the FCC that I do have the character qualifications.
[46:26.860 --> 46:34.820]  So it's been an extreme burden, because when you're in that situation, the government doesn't have to appoint you a lawyer.
[46:35.040 --> 46:37.260]  You're responsible for hiring your own lawyer.
[46:37.260 --> 46:44.940]  And you can imagine, since I have to pay for it out of my own pocket, that the amount of money that it's costing just for an amateur radio license...
[46:44.940 --> 46:59.280]  But I really believe in the principle that I've been punished enough for what I did, and to have another government agency continue to, you know, to punish me for what I've already, you know, done my time, you know, I felt that I must stand up for principle in my case.
[46:59.400 --> 47:07.120]  And so, you know, I've been working closely with my attorney and trying to do whatever I can to save my amateur radio license.
[47:07.320 --> 47:09.360]  Now, when do you hear back on the ruling?
[47:10.240 --> 47:12.220]  Well, I was in D.C.
[47:12.220 --> 47:18.660]  last week to testify, and a friend and colleague also flew out from Los Angeles.
[47:18.900 --> 47:30.220]  And then the program director at KFI, when I was doing my talk radio show, testified last week in my publisher, because I just finished writing a book for Wiley & Sons.
[47:30.220 --> 47:35.420]  And one of the senior editors testified on my behalf today.
[47:38.700 --> 47:40.620]  So I don't expect...
[47:40.620 --> 47:43.000]  We have to submit some documentation.
[47:43.000 --> 47:45.720]  I think it's a proposed findings of fact and conclusions.
[47:46.160 --> 47:48.060]  And that's not due until September.
[47:48.420 --> 47:53.880]  And I think the judge makes a decision in November, depending on what the recommendations are.
[47:54.880 --> 47:55.320]  Okay.
[47:55.620 --> 47:56.920]  Well, best of luck with that.
[47:57.140 --> 47:58.300]  Do you want to stay on for some phone calls?
[47:58.300 --> 47:58.920]  Sure.
[47:59.220 --> 47:59.420]  Okay.
[47:59.520 --> 48:00.720]  Let's take a couple of phone calls.
[48:00.860 --> 48:02.500]  We're on with Kevin Mitnick for the next couple of minutes.
[48:03.340 --> 48:05.660]  Here on Off the Hook, let's go over here.
[48:06.100 --> 48:08.560]  Actually, let me push that button first, or it'll be a disaster.
[48:08.680 --> 48:09.140]  Let's go over here.
[48:09.220 --> 48:09.480]  Good evening.
[48:09.580 --> 48:10.000]  You're on the air.
[48:11.060 --> 48:11.340]  Hi.
[48:11.360 --> 48:11.740]  Good evening.
[48:12.200 --> 48:22.000]  I'd like to compliment Kevin on being able to explain the very complicated technical situations, you know, and what he just got through with it in a very lucid way.
[48:22.800 --> 48:28.740]  about this way of substituting or, why should we say, ghosting phone calls off of other people's phones.
[48:28.840 --> 48:29.500]  That's very interesting.
[48:30.060 --> 48:43.580]  Yeah, it's pretty scary because a lot of times in criminal matters, the courts use telephone records to prove their, you know, the police, law enforcement agencies use telephone records to prove their case against a defendant.
[48:43.580 --> 49:00.420]  And what's scary is if somebody wants to set somebody up and the only probative evidence is the telephone calls or the strongest evidence, all that could be manufactured by somebody who has access to certain telephone company equipment.
[49:00.660 --> 49:05.560]  Well, I think studying chaos might be a good idea for people these days.
[49:06.100 --> 49:10.120]  Emanuel, you know, a short while ago, you were talking about something very important.
[49:10.600 --> 49:24.420]  I don't know if you know, but George Bush is pushing legislation that will, under national emergency, suspend all cell phones, highways, food sources, gas, electric, everything.
[49:24.860 --> 49:36.720]  And, you know, it hasn't gone through yet, but there's a law on the books in New York, not yet on the books, but called the Medical Emergency Act, which involves, you know, vaccinating.
[49:36.900 --> 49:42.440]  If you don't get vaccinated for smallpox, then you will then have everything you have taken.
[49:42.440 --> 49:44.320]  They haven't got that one through yet, either.
[49:45.220 --> 49:48.000]  Well, forward me information on this, because I'd like to know more about that.
[49:48.220 --> 49:48.500]  Okay.
[49:48.800 --> 49:56.920]  And I also heard from Joe King on his show that the Men in Black were standing at your, one of your recent meetings, the 2600 meetings.
[49:57.040 --> 49:58.080]  Well, they're always there, yes.
[49:58.220 --> 50:00.320]  Oh, well, why don't you ask them to contribute?
[50:00.500 --> 50:02.800]  May anyone have something to contribute to the dialogue?
[50:03.220 --> 50:03.420]  Yeah.
[50:03.580 --> 50:04.740]  Well, they'll be at the conference, too.
[50:04.840 --> 50:05.680]  You can count on that.
[50:05.680 --> 50:07.900]  They don't talk, you see, they should get them to talk, because we've got...
[50:07.900 --> 50:13.360]  They don't talk that much, but if we track them down, we'll definitely ask them for some comments.
[50:13.540 --> 50:14.680]  Okay, well, have a good evening.
[50:14.820 --> 50:15.300]  Thanks for calling.
[50:15.880 --> 50:16.400]  Thank you.
[50:16.700 --> 50:17.780]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[50:17.940 --> 50:18.680]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[50:19.420 --> 50:20.860]  Yeah, this is Astro, I'm Chelsea.
[50:21.160 --> 50:33.820]  You know, when you talk about selling records there, or CDs, and get a royalty on them, it sort of reminds me of the case of the, the writers that sued the New York Times, the Time Warner.
[50:33.820 --> 50:35.640]  I took the case of the U.S.
[50:35.680 --> 50:45.860]  Supreme Court because Time Warner and the New York Times were using their stories on the Internet and only paying them one time to freelance writers with probably no benefits.
[50:46.700 --> 50:52.520]  Now, if they want to sell the records again, and they want to make a royalty off it, why shouldn't they?
[50:52.660 --> 51:07.920]  And if they take the case of the Supreme Court, don't you think the Supreme Court is going to rule that the songwriters have a right to royalties and the songs when they're sold again, the same as the writers that sued the New York Times and sued Time Warner and the singers and composers,
[51:08.180 --> 51:08.300]  too?
[51:08.460 --> 51:11.040]  But we're talking about physical records here.
[51:11.160 --> 51:12.100]  We're talking about someone's property.
[51:12.380 --> 51:22.600]  I know, physical records, but they're talking about the Internet, which is, the Internet is used in newspapers and magazines, and that information that was used in Time Warner, cases there, and the New York Times.
[51:22.740 --> 51:24.220]  They took the case to the U.S.
[51:24.260 --> 51:31.600]  Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ruled that the writers were entitled to residuals every time it was used on the Internet again, not only the one-time rights.
[51:32.700 --> 51:43.620]  I can go to a library or get some back-issue company and get a copy of that New York Times with the freelancer's article in it and buy it, and he won't get any more sense.
[51:43.620 --> 51:46.640]  It's the physical thing that buying it...
[51:50.360 --> 51:59.460]  And they only get the extra money off the Internet, so the Times, to avoid paying the extra money, took their stories off the Internet.
[51:59.820 --> 52:11.300]  If you get a back issue from the Times, if you get a back issue from a back issue company, if you go to the library and dig it up on microfilm, microfiche, or in hard copy, you don't have to pay anything, and they don't get anything.
[52:11.740 --> 52:12.940]  All right, listen, thanks for that call.
[52:13.100 --> 52:15.740]  We are running out of time, so let's see if we can go through a couple more.
[52:15.800 --> 52:16.420]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[52:17.180 --> 52:17.680]  Oh, yes.
[52:18.580 --> 52:28.960]  You were talking about these numbers, 800 numbers meant to catch people who dial wrong, like 1-800-C-E-L-L-A-T-T.
[52:29.220 --> 52:31.400]  Yeah, yeah, I think that was one of the sprint ones.
[52:31.540 --> 52:31.900]  It was.
[52:32.680 --> 52:35.160]  When they dial now, it just rings.
[52:35.400 --> 52:49.720]  I remember I dialed probably months ago, and they said that the number was no longer in service, no further information is available, and before that, I actually called their service.
[52:51.860 --> 52:53.260]  I asked them some questions.
[52:53.260 --> 52:55.380]  They said the company was ACS.
[52:55.700 --> 52:56.080]  Uh-huh.
[52:56.220 --> 53:01.240]  Well, ACS, I believe, is a company that is a subsidiary of Sprint or is controlled by Sprint or something like that.
[53:01.260 --> 53:01.880]  I could be wrong.
[53:01.940 --> 53:07.580]  I could be wrong as to which company is which, but they do this kind of thing all the time, and it's pretty shameful.
[53:07.840 --> 53:12.120]  But these numbers, these particular numbers you had before may not be working anymore.
[53:12.260 --> 53:13.220]  This one at least isn't.
[53:13.420 --> 53:13.520]  Yeah.
[53:13.620 --> 53:21.040]  And when I called them then, I asked them if they could tell me what number I dialed to get them, and they said, oh, they don't have that.
[53:21.120 --> 53:21.880]  They don't know what number I dialed.
[53:21.880 --> 53:25.820]  Yeah, probably because a lot of different misspellings of the company name wind up in the same place.
[53:26.000 --> 53:27.280]  But, yeah, that's nothing new.
[53:28.120 --> 53:31.900]  All right, Jobman, you have some exploit you want to share with us.
[53:32.180 --> 53:33.120]  Got to make it quick, though.
[53:33.120 --> 53:43.180]  Oh, before I was going to talk about that, if you guys want to make a quick phone call to somebody, 1-888-PA-TAXES is the Pennsylvania, you know, personal income tax hotline.
[53:43.360 --> 53:47.300]  1-800-PA-TAXES goes to some kind of porn phone line.
[53:47.400 --> 53:47.800]  Oh, really?
[53:47.880 --> 53:50.640]  So, yeah, I found this out when I was trying to get some tax stuff straightened out.
[53:50.780 --> 53:52.240]  What kind of people are they after?
[53:52.360 --> 53:53.700]  People who are trying to pay their taxes?
[53:53.860 --> 53:56.540]  Well, yeah, I think maybe I'll engage in some pornography before I do that.
[53:57.500 --> 54:01.860]  Well, I mean, if you guys want to call and complain to somebody, I don't have the time to complain to, you know.
[54:01.860 --> 54:05.280]  Then there are the people that are trying to get the porn, they get the tax person instead.
[54:05.380 --> 54:06.060]  What happens to them?
[54:06.280 --> 54:07.300]  They're not very happy about that.
[54:07.640 --> 54:14.400]  You can also call 1-800-GO-U-HALL, but transpose the U and the A and get Ryder.
[54:15.080 --> 54:15.560]  Oh, really?
[54:15.940 --> 54:17.660]  Wow, this kind of thing goes on all the time.
[54:17.760 --> 54:21.760]  Do you still have an 800 number for Annie, where you get the number that you're calling from?
[54:21.860 --> 54:22.660]  They have several of those.
[54:22.740 --> 54:24.000]  Yeah, I don't know one off the top of my head.
[54:24.260 --> 54:25.320]  A lot of them go shut down.
[54:25.320 --> 54:29.360]  There used to be 1-800-MY-AN-I-IS, but there's a passcode required on it.
[54:29.840 --> 54:32.380]  There's always local ones, like 958 here.
[54:32.620 --> 54:33.580]  Yeah, well, that's ANAC.
[54:33.740 --> 54:34.760]  It's a different thing than ANI.
[54:35.280 --> 54:36.740]  Java, man, you want that exploit for us?
[54:36.800 --> 54:37.780]  Because we're almost out of time.
[54:38.140 --> 54:43.340]  I was kind of curious what everyone's opinion about was the release of the Gobbles exploit.
[54:43.780 --> 54:51.440]  Approximately a week ago, ISS came out and said that there is an exploit for Apache versions 1.3.22, 1.3.24.
[54:51.620 --> 54:57.340]  I'm sorry, a vulnerability, but also said that this vulnerability would be extremely difficult to attack due to its nature.
[54:57.520 --> 55:03.400]  I believe it's something along the lines of the child of the Apache processor to throw a SIG alarm during a timeout.
[55:03.720 --> 55:07.540]  And they claim it would be near difficult or near impossible to attack.
[55:08.380 --> 55:13.920]  Shortly thereafter, the Gobbles security team released an actual working exploit for OpenBSD.
[55:15.280 --> 55:19.520]  OpenBSD is Rev.303.1 and against Apache 2.2 and 2.4.
[55:21.180 --> 55:33.080]  I just wonder if, you know, talk to the other guys here and see if they had any opinions about the fact that, you know, ISS came out and said an exploit was near impossible and within a few days someone came out with the actual attack.
[55:33.240 --> 55:35.300]  Well, they're going to have to make this a very quick comment.
[55:35.900 --> 55:37.180]  Do you have a comment on this?
[55:37.340 --> 55:40.560]  I think another thing, I mean, a lot of people have already fixed it.
[55:40.560 --> 55:50.180]  I think it's probably important to point out that the OpenBSD and ISS are doing some different but similarly troubling shenanigans with the new OpenSSH exploit.
[55:50.460 --> 55:51.980]  That's going to be released tomorrow.
[55:53.220 --> 55:53.700]  Okay.
[55:53.880 --> 55:56.260]  Well, unfortunately, that pretty much brings us to the end of our time.
[55:56.380 --> 56:00.960]  But the Personal Computer Show might be taking up this discussion in the hour ahead.
[56:01.780 --> 56:04.140]  Jim, very quickly, what's going on with you?
[56:04.620 --> 56:05.880]  Oh, let's see.
[56:06.280 --> 56:07.820]  Everything's pretty much hit the fan.
[56:07.820 --> 56:12.580]  Again, my lawyer is financially out of reach and I'm having great difficulty otherwise.
[56:12.620 --> 56:13.760]  This is the MTA case.
[56:13.900 --> 56:14.960]  This is the MTA case.
[56:15.120 --> 56:24.480]  In fact, other people have actually sued, pointing out that it's ironic that everybody who's been being prosecuted has vast amounts of seniority.
[56:25.320 --> 56:33.240]  If anyone can get me a job or other assistance, email me, jeopardy90 at AOL.com.
[56:33.400 --> 56:35.500]  Sorry about the AOL address, but hey, I'm stuck.
[56:36.400 --> 56:37.960]  Jeopardy90 at AOL.com.
[56:38.440 --> 56:38.800]  All right.
[56:38.980 --> 56:44.920]  And please lend a hand however you can to help yet another hacker in trouble.
[56:46.120 --> 56:47.440]  It's okay to call you a hacker, right?
[56:47.440 --> 56:48.900]  You won't get in more trouble from me saying that.
[56:48.900 --> 56:50.000]  About now, no.
[56:50.100 --> 56:51.120]  It's not going to hurt anymore.
[56:51.460 --> 56:51.940]  All right.
[56:52.380 --> 56:54.020]  That's pretty much the program for tonight.
[56:54.020 --> 56:55.320]  Kevin, thanks so much for joining us.
[56:55.420 --> 56:56.140]  Best of luck with everything.
[56:56.140 --> 56:56.280]  You're welcome.
[56:56.420 --> 56:56.720]  Thank you.
[56:56.980 --> 56:57.280]  All right.
[56:57.460 --> 56:58.600]  We'll be back again next week.
[56:58.820 --> 56:59.480]  Same old time.
[56:59.620 --> 56:59.860]  Good night.
[57:06.500 --> 57:09.080]  Introducing myself as your ace from space.
[57:09.720 --> 57:11.520]  I'm no sky like a conker.
[57:11.920 --> 57:14.580]  I only know I'm a conker in roo.
[57:14.820 --> 57:17.620]  Yow, yow, yow, yow, yow, yow.
[57:17.840 --> 57:20.640]  Coming from the north and the vis to the south.
[57:20.900 --> 57:23.700]  I'm quite sure I'm going to knock you out.
[57:23.880 --> 57:24.900]  I'm a conker.
[57:25.680 --> 57:28.160]  Everywhere you go I'm a conker.
[57:28.520 --> 57:31.460]  I want you to know I'm a conker.
[57:31.840 --> 57:34.580]  I rule also I'm a conker.
[57:36.740 --> 57:44.240]  Don't mess with the east Don't mess with the west I lead the public and to suggest I'm the conker.
[57:44.900 --> 57:47.480]  Everywhere you go I'm a conker.
[57:47.700 --> 57:50.640]  I want you to know I'm a conker.
[57:50.640 --> 57:54.220]  The ruler, the ruler, the conqueror.
[57:56.820 --> 58:01.520]  I introduced myself before, and now we're coming straight back to the door.
[58:02.120 --> 58:06.760]  I'm no sky-longer, and everybody knows me as a conquering ruler.
[58:11.430 --> 58:12.670]  Conquering ruler!
[58:17.760 --> 58:18.980]  Conquering ruler!
[58:19.020 --> 58:19.020]  Conquering ruler!
[58:21.440 --> 58:24.160]  I am the hammer to carry me.
[58:27.760 --> 58:28.720]  Ecologic.
[58:29.060 --> 58:31.720]  Every other Tuesday at 11 a.m.
[58:32.160 --> 58:35.140]  On July 2nd, The Ecology of War.
[58:35.560 --> 58:36.680]  The Yekis.
[58:37.360 --> 58:38.340]  Bunker Busters.
[58:39.100 --> 58:40.060]  Radiation.
[58:40.340 --> 58:41.060]  Fireworks.
[58:41.560 --> 58:43.220]  Environmental Justice.
[58:44.360 --> 58:45.320]  Ecologic.
[58:45.780 --> 58:47.960]  July 2nd, 11 a.m.
[58:48.200 --> 58:51.720]  On WBAI 99.5 FM.