[00:00.000 --> 00:07.880]  I told my mother that this was her fault, and that we had to put up with it for three years, but we would leave her now and live a separate life.
[00:08.660 --> 00:11.620]  I love my wife, but I'm not satisfied with my mother.
[00:12.380 --> 00:17.480]  Indeed, an explanation of the increase in suicides may be that women are copying each other.
[00:18.200 --> 00:23.100]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is 7.01.
[00:23.260 --> 00:24.020]  Time for Off the Hook.
[00:34.480 --> 00:36.580]  I cut myself off shaving.
[00:37.030 --> 00:39.060]  Now I've got to make a call.
[00:39.920 --> 00:41.780]  Turn me at my place.
[01:15.390 --> 01:16.990]  And the program is Off the Hook.
[01:17.950 --> 01:20.950]  We come your way every Wednesday night from 7 p.m.
[01:21.130 --> 01:22.630]  to 8 p.m.
[01:23.050 --> 01:30.970]  talking about the latest news and high technology and the encroaching freedoms of everyone here in this country.
[01:30.970 --> 01:35.830]  And we have lived through probably one of the most active weekends we've ever had.
[01:37.350 --> 01:37.990]  lived through.
[01:39.290 --> 01:39.890]  Bernie S.
[01:40.070 --> 01:41.270]  is on the phone with us from Philadelphia.
[01:41.470 --> 01:41.910]  Bernie, are you there?
[01:44.030 --> 01:44.710]  Bernie, are you there?
[01:45.950 --> 01:47.030]  Maybe he didn't make it.
[01:47.150 --> 01:47.390]  I don't know.
[01:49.370 --> 01:49.890]  You there?
[01:51.370 --> 01:51.730]  Hmm.
[01:51.970 --> 01:52.310]  Interesting.
[01:52.450 --> 01:53.230]  He was there just a second.
[01:53.490 --> 01:54.310]  Ah, there you are.
[01:54.650 --> 01:56.490]  You're going to have to call me back in five minutes, Emmanuel.
[01:56.750 --> 01:57.610]  Why is this?
[01:57.730 --> 01:58.270]  Is something happening?
[01:58.390 --> 01:59.430]  I'm going into an elevator.
[01:59.610 --> 02:00.090]  I'll get cut off.
[02:00.210 --> 02:01.010]  Are you going into an elevator?
[02:01.130 --> 02:03.070]  Well, let's stay until you do get cut off.
[02:03.210 --> 02:03.470]  Okay.
[02:03.590 --> 02:04.190]  That's always fun.
[02:04.830 --> 02:05.570]  That's what I can't know.
[02:05.570 --> 02:06.270]  I can't talk...
[02:06.270 --> 02:07.150]  You know, call me back in five minutes.
[02:07.290 --> 02:07.530]  Okay.
[02:07.730 --> 02:07.910]  All right.
[02:07.970 --> 02:08.470]  I'll call you in five minutes.
[02:08.470 --> 02:10.710]  I think there's something more going on than what he's saying.
[02:10.830 --> 02:11.430]  But, okay.
[02:12.090 --> 02:12.410]  That's...
[02:13.230 --> 02:13.770]  Ernie S.
[02:15.150 --> 02:15.570]  All right.
[02:15.650 --> 02:20.550]  We have other people here, fortunately, that have made it through the H2K2 conference.
[02:20.610 --> 02:24.870]  And, boy, what a conference it was this past weekend at the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York City.
[02:26.810 --> 02:27.490]  Words fail me.
[02:27.630 --> 02:28.470]  Words really do fail me.
[02:28.570 --> 02:32.490]  It basically was non-stop activity.
[02:32.490 --> 02:33.470]  We had all kinds of speakers.
[02:33.470 --> 02:34.550]  We had all kinds of activities.
[02:36.830 --> 02:38.410]  Who should we bring up first?
[02:39.230 --> 02:41.210]  Actually, I'd like to talk to Jeff, but he's all the way back there.
[02:41.770 --> 02:42.490]  He's got pictures.
[02:42.590 --> 02:43.390]  You've got pictures, right, Jeff?
[02:43.610 --> 02:44.110]  Yes, I do.
[02:44.270 --> 02:44.470]  Okay.
[02:45.490 --> 02:47.170]  How are we going to show the pictures on the air?
[02:47.170 --> 02:49.490]  I'm not quite sure how to do that.
[02:50.010 --> 02:50.930]  They're for you.
[02:51.670 --> 02:52.070]  Okay.
[02:52.310 --> 02:52.590]  Fine.
[02:52.790 --> 02:54.230]  Well, I guess we can just describe them.
[02:54.930 --> 02:55.150]  Yeah.
[02:56.350 --> 02:57.990]  Chris, why don't you...
[02:57.990 --> 03:03.350]  Since you were there 24 hours a day during the conference, how do you think it went compared to H2K?
[03:04.650 --> 03:07.450]  Well, as far as the AV stuff, I was in charge of it.
[03:07.630 --> 03:08.530]  It went much smoother.
[03:08.810 --> 03:08.990]  Yeah.
[03:09.290 --> 03:10.630]  We had a lot fewer problems.
[03:10.690 --> 03:11.770]  We had more time to set up.
[03:12.210 --> 03:13.890]  We already knew most of the venue.
[03:14.750 --> 03:17.030]  So we were familiar with the kind of problems we were going to run into.
[03:18.010 --> 03:23.030]  We still had a couple problems with getting, you know, some scheduling down and last-minute rental issues.
[03:23.210 --> 03:25.050]  But overall, the AV went great.
[03:25.330 --> 03:30.430]  I think it was transparent to the people that were there, all the things you were going through, just getting it all to work.
[03:30.510 --> 03:42.910]  But it's really pretty complicated getting sound in at least three different rooms at once and at times four different rooms at once to be working and, you know, working pretty flawlessly for the most part.
[03:44.710 --> 03:46.390]  Yeah, you know, everyone seemed happy.
[03:46.510 --> 03:47.750]  Everyone seemed happy with the way it went.
[03:47.850 --> 03:51.730]  Everyone seemed to be kind of into all the talks that were going on.
[03:51.950 --> 03:53.110]  We had so many of them.
[03:53.230 --> 03:54.730]  We had so many good panels.
[03:56.030 --> 03:59.490]  And I think people just were paying rapt attention to the various speakers.
[03:59.730 --> 04:02.110]  Aaron McGruder was amazing, our keynote speaker.
[04:03.430 --> 04:04.590]  Jello was there again.
[04:04.750 --> 04:07.110]  He spoke for about three hours on Saturday night.
[04:08.170 --> 04:09.770]  Mark Hosler from Negative Land.
[04:09.970 --> 04:22.630]  It was just great to see all these people that I've always respected coming together in front of a crowd and basically all these people learning, learning new things, learning about new people and getting inspired in all different ways.
[04:23.070 --> 04:32.430]  Politically, we were all over the place as far as different perspectives and different things that were talked about during that weekend.
[04:33.990 --> 04:36.670]  So basically, I think it was a success overall.
[04:36.670 --> 04:39.550]  But I'd like to hear from our listeners, 212-209-2900.
[04:40.750 --> 04:45.410]  With your feedback, if you were at the conference, please let us know what it was like.
[04:46.490 --> 04:48.970]  Someone else speak up while I get someone on the phone.
[04:50.630 --> 05:01.650]  I just want to thank all the people that came and volunteered at the conference, especially at the info desk, which I sort of ran, although by the end of it, the volunteers were more than capable of running it themselves.
[05:02.330 --> 05:09.650]  But, I mean, we had, I don't know, maybe hundreds of people volunteering in all different aspects of the conference, and it really wouldn't have been...
[05:09.650 --> 05:11.330]  It wouldn't have happened without them.
[05:11.970 --> 05:12.590]  Absolutely not.
[05:12.690 --> 05:13.150]  Absolutely not.
[05:13.170 --> 05:16.210]  It was all a volunteer effort, as far as that kind of thing goes.
[05:16.350 --> 05:17.230]  It usually is.
[05:17.930 --> 05:19.050]  That's the way it has to be.
[05:19.450 --> 05:20.150]  Hi, this is Greg.
[05:20.330 --> 05:20.750]  Hey, Greg.
[05:20.930 --> 05:21.270]  It's Emmanuel.
[05:21.450 --> 05:23.710]  You're live on WBAI in New York.
[05:24.030 --> 05:24.810]  Great to hear from you.
[05:24.810 --> 05:28.910]  It was great to have you down for this past, almost week, actually.
[05:29.070 --> 05:32.610]  Just preparation and cleaning up and all the things that happened in between.
[05:33.050 --> 05:34.370]  What did you think of the way it all went?
[05:35.110 --> 05:36.310]  I thought it was outstanding.
[05:36.590 --> 05:47.890]  The people were great, the attendees were great, and the organization didn't quite meet up with what we expected when we hit the ground, but we adjusted, we overcame and adapted.
[05:49.050 --> 05:50.650]  Yeah, we certainly did.
[05:50.850 --> 06:06.290]  I think this is maybe the closest thing to a Dutch conference that I've seen in the States, just as far as all the different people getting together and spending endless hours just working tirelessly on things, and just the overall mood.
[06:06.490 --> 06:09.810]  That's the overall mood that was there throughout.
[06:11.130 --> 06:12.470]  I've seen that overseas.
[06:12.670 --> 06:13.150]  I haven't seen it.
[06:13.230 --> 06:15.070]  I mean, I've seen it at the HOPE conferences to a degree.
[06:15.350 --> 06:17.330]  I think this one, really, we saw it a lot.
[06:17.430 --> 06:22.450]  We saw a lot more people who were caring and just into it.
[06:23.010 --> 06:23.650]  Yeah, I agree.
[06:23.810 --> 06:25.670]  I mean, I think we've learned from the Dutch conferences.
[06:25.910 --> 06:33.590]  And as you know, I was involved in planning HAL 2001, and so was HOPE, one of our other organizers.
[06:33.910 --> 06:39.230]  And I think they're going to learn from us also, because every time a conference happens, there's innovation.
[06:39.230 --> 06:41.090]  I think we did our share of innovation as well.
[06:41.310 --> 06:41.550]  Mm-hmm.
[06:42.370 --> 06:43.170]  Yeah, that's certainly true.
[06:43.210 --> 06:45.750]  What were your favorite moments at the conference, a little bit you were able to see?
[06:46.130 --> 06:50.270]  Well, actually, it was interesting, because I got to be at the beginning and end of a whole lot of sessions.
[06:50.650 --> 06:54.670]  And I think I really enjoyed a couple of different things.
[06:54.690 --> 07:04.070]  But the one that sort of hit me in the heart was when I heard the mentor reading the Hacker Manifesto, which he did at the start of his session.
[07:04.510 --> 07:08.390]  And that was, you know, something that we've all read and we've talked about.
[07:09.290 --> 07:15.150]  And, you know, I don't know, when I read it and I show it to my college class, we all think it's maybe a little hokey, a little overstated.
[07:15.630 --> 07:24.110]  And yet, somehow, when he was standing up there reading it and received the standing ovation from about 600 people in session A, I just thought it was really a highlight for me.
[07:24.490 --> 07:25.850]  Yeah, yeah, it was, too.
[07:26.030 --> 07:27.750]  I missed a lot of the conference.
[07:27.910 --> 07:28.710]  I missed a lot of the speeches.
[07:28.830 --> 07:33.370]  Obviously, we have it on tape, and eventually I'm going to catch up.
[07:34.870 --> 07:39.150]  But from what I heard, from everything I heard, it was really well-received.
[07:40.470 --> 07:42.370]  And we're bringing Laszlo in now.
[07:43.010 --> 07:45.890]  Laszlo, who was there for a good part of the conference as well.
[07:46.010 --> 07:47.130]  Hopefully, he'll...
[07:47.130 --> 07:49.810]  We only have about five minutes on the phone, I'm afraid.
[07:50.150 --> 07:50.910]  Okay, all right.
[07:50.970 --> 07:52.710]  Yeah, we all have to get back to our lives after this.
[07:52.890 --> 07:53.530]  That's the problem.
[07:53.630 --> 07:54.890]  The light is setting in.
[07:55.210 --> 07:55.530]  Mm-hmm.
[07:56.710 --> 07:58.750]  And maybe Laszlo's already gotten back to his life.
[08:01.010 --> 08:01.410]  Hmm.
[08:01.950 --> 08:04.210]  We'll give it one more ring, and then we'll try Bernie S.
[08:04.370 --> 08:04.450]  again.
[08:07.700 --> 08:08.680]  Okay, well, that's too bad.
[08:09.140 --> 08:10.100]  Laszlo was there, though.
[08:10.220 --> 08:10.900]  You can take our word for that.
[08:10.960 --> 08:15.420]  He was there, and he did a lot of emceeing and coordinating.
[08:15.680 --> 08:20.080]  I think this conference probably was one of the best ones as far as coordination.
[08:20.480 --> 08:22.340]  You know, we were able to get things done really, really quickly.
[08:23.060 --> 08:27.820]  I'm trying to think of examples of where we were able to have things fixed really, really quickly.
[08:27.920 --> 08:40.120]  I think when, for instance, we needed something like mini-DV tapes to record the conference, we were able to just radio to somebody downstairs, and we'd have them within three minutes.
[08:40.280 --> 08:41.440]  Someone was on the street right away.
[08:41.520 --> 08:41.880]  Exactly.
[08:42.000 --> 08:43.780]  Somebody would run out, get them, and we'd have them.
[08:44.200 --> 08:48.020]  And, you know, it was a crisis because we would have run out in two hours.
[08:48.220 --> 08:48.340]  Right.
[08:48.340 --> 08:52.960]  But we had enough within, you know, five minutes to cover the day.
[08:53.320 --> 08:57.480]  Things like that, you know, where people just basically did whatever was needed.
[08:57.480 --> 09:00.840]  And that also made it down to the attendee level.
[09:01.340 --> 09:02.220]  Attendees would always help.
[09:02.320 --> 09:04.560]  We asked people to, you know, help us move chairs around.
[09:04.700 --> 09:06.080]  There would always be somebody there to do it.
[09:06.220 --> 09:09.400]  I also think cleanup this time went so much better than before.
[09:10.180 --> 09:12.080]  Chris, I'm sure you can attest to that.
[09:12.240 --> 09:13.500]  A lot of people stayed this time, right?
[09:13.820 --> 09:14.240]  Oh, yeah.
[09:14.360 --> 09:18.380]  Yeah, we had about the same number of people volunteer for AV strike at the end.
[09:19.120 --> 09:27.480]  And what was significantly different, though, was that almost all those people stayed all the way until about 4 a.m.
[09:27.480 --> 09:28.400]  or so when we finished.
[09:29.000 --> 09:35.240]  And that was such a great thing because last time it ended up being about two, three people.
[09:35.260 --> 09:38.060]  And we finally had to call it quits and hire some people to finish it.
[09:38.880 --> 09:41.740]  And, yeah, I think the coordination was also very good.
[09:42.300 --> 09:53.500]  In addition to the DV tapes, we also had a couple instances where we needed to get help for things from security and we were able to instantly reach people and have them take care of things immediately when that needed to happen.
[09:53.600 --> 10:02.600]  And security, I think, really deserves accommodation for just basically making everybody comfortable watching over things without being in people's faces.
[10:02.720 --> 10:05.480]  I think that really makes a big difference.
[10:05.620 --> 10:11.220]  I remember I mentioned this when I went to HAL last year in Holland how there seemed to be no security.
[10:11.320 --> 10:12.680]  Actually, there was lots of security.
[10:12.940 --> 10:14.200]  Basically, the attendees were the security.
[10:14.380 --> 10:16.480]  There were the people watching over things making sure everything was okay.
[10:17.440 --> 10:19.900]  And I think that's a lot of what we had this time.
[10:20.100 --> 10:27.100]  We had, you know, a security team led by Rody who did an outstanding job keeping things as safe as humanly possible.
[10:27.220 --> 10:40.840]  I mean, I think if we had, you know, the most professional police agency in there, it would have been far, far worse than having what we had there which made everybody comfortable and was not intimidating in any way.
[10:40.960 --> 10:42.860]  And that's the way I think it should be.
[10:43.880 --> 10:46.600]  Rody and security actually helped to set the tone for the conference.
[10:46.800 --> 10:58.020]  They were, you know, they're helpful and obsequious and smiling and present and just, I think people felt like whatever they needed, they would be cheerfully supplied.
[10:58.900 --> 11:00.320]  Bernie S., you rejoining us?
[11:00.760 --> 11:01.400]  I am.
[11:01.500 --> 11:04.080]  I had to plant my ass in an appropriate place.
[11:04.560 --> 11:06.900]  Okay, well, I'm happy to hear that that was accomplished.
[11:07.820 --> 11:12.880]  I'm sitting outside the Independence Hall where our Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights were signed.
[11:13.220 --> 11:15.440]  And consequently ripped up last week, I believe.
[11:15.800 --> 11:16.480]  Pretty much.
[11:16.660 --> 11:22.080]  Well, we actually have some stories about that as well, about some of the latest developments.
[11:22.220 --> 11:24.940]  But there's been a lot of media attention about the conference.
[11:25.060 --> 11:25.920]  Let's look at that first.
[11:27.120 --> 11:31.840]  One story which really struck me, the press, by the way, has been pretty good overall.
[11:32.160 --> 11:34.900]  NPR did a piece that was really quite good.
[11:36.000 --> 11:40.800]  I heard even Channel 5, the local Fox affiliate, did a good job reporting on it.
[11:40.880 --> 11:44.300]  If anyone has a tape of that, please send it on over because I want to see that.
[11:44.360 --> 11:48.560]  We weren't able to see any real media coverage being out there the whole time.
[11:49.260 --> 11:50.500]  Also, CNBC was there.
[11:50.640 --> 11:51.960]  They did all kinds of live reports.
[11:52.900 --> 12:00.280]  But there was one piece in particular that the BBC had on their web page.
[12:00.620 --> 12:01.680]  I'm going to read this to you.
[12:01.680 --> 12:03.100]  And it's rather interesting.
[12:03.260 --> 12:05.340]  It's short, but it's very telling.
[12:06.100 --> 12:07.420]  As computer hackers...
[12:07.420 --> 12:09.720]  The title is Beware Giving Away Sensitive Information.
[12:10.060 --> 12:17.700]  As computer hackers attend a convention in New York, major organizations fear that attempts might be made to disrupt their computers in a show of hacking strength.
[12:18.260 --> 12:25.540]  The telephone company, AT&T, has written to all its employees warning them to be on their guard.
[12:26.220 --> 12:31.820]  In the latest high-profile hacking in the U.S., a newspaper had its website altered to include fake news items.
[12:32.420 --> 12:33.800]  Now, listen to this sentence.
[12:33.920 --> 12:39.580]  The hackers' conference is an annual event and usually includes an attack on a high-profile computer system.
[12:40.940 --> 12:43.240]  Now, of course, there's two facts wrong in that sentence.
[12:43.540 --> 12:44.700]  We're not an annual event.
[12:44.700 --> 12:46.860]  It's every couple of years or every three years.
[12:47.100 --> 12:51.620]  And we most certainly do not include an attack on a high-profile computer system as part of our program.
[12:52.700 --> 13:09.980]  So many people wrote to the BBC complaining about this error that I actually saw a letter come back saying that the person who wrote this article was not competent to write the article, was an amateur, something like that, and the article has been corrected.
[13:10.260 --> 13:13.980]  And sure enough, if you go to that page now, that paragraph just doesn't exist anymore.
[13:14.340 --> 13:20.520]  And while that's nice, while it's nice that the paragraph is no longer there, you have to wonder, you know, that's revisionism.
[13:20.700 --> 13:22.220]  Now, it's like it was never written.
[13:22.560 --> 13:23.920]  Fortunately, we have a copy of it.
[13:24.380 --> 13:29.640]  It's still in our records, but that sentence does no longer, it no longer exists on the BBC site.
[13:30.260 --> 13:34.880]  Sounds like their only source for that article was the AT&T letter for a press release.
[13:35.100 --> 13:36.200]  Yeah, and that's another thing.
[13:36.260 --> 13:39.360]  The press, I guess, was a memo that got sent around.
[13:39.480 --> 13:53.140]  Now, this was reported on Slashdot that there was a memo surprisingly similar to the one that appeared in 2000 at H2K warning AT&T employees not to give out information because of the social engineering panel taking place on Sunday.
[13:53.660 --> 14:04.000]  But the funny thing is that memo gave out more information about their structure, about what kind of email they used, what their, they have this thing called HRID numbers, you know, we didn't know about that before.
[14:16.940 --> 14:20.720]  I actually went to a pay phone out on Saturday and there were several witnesses.
[14:21.180 --> 14:37.120]  Basically, I just styled 00 for AT&T and I tried social engineering the operator first and she transferred me to the supervisor and I told the supervisor I was with AT&T security and that I, that I'm sure she's seen the memos about the H2K2 conference in New York.
[14:37.320 --> 14:39.440]  She said, yeah, well, what do you need from us?
[14:39.500 --> 14:50.360]  I'm like, yeah, well, apparently some of the hackers there have hacked into the AT&T call center in New York and are transferring the supervisor calls to the hotel and she goes, oh my God.
[14:50.520 --> 14:59.040]  I'm like, all right, so to verify that you're a supervisor I'm going to need your HR ID number and she's like, oh, certainly sir and she pulls out her ID and gives me it right over the phone.
[15:00.180 --> 15:05.360]  We didn't get a recording of it but there were several witnesses at the pay phone that saw me do this.
[15:06.180 --> 15:07.380]  Okay, who is not there?
[15:08.220 --> 15:09.040]  I mean, who is there?
[15:09.120 --> 15:09.560]  Bernie S is here.
[15:09.620 --> 15:10.180]  Bernie S is here.
[15:10.280 --> 15:12.720]  So Greg, we've lost Greg so I'm going to hang up on that line.
[15:14.440 --> 15:15.380]  Okay, Greg's gone.
[15:15.820 --> 15:16.600]  Bernie, you're still there.
[15:17.060 --> 15:22.280]  Well, now, the social engineering was, I had no idea it would work as well as it did.
[15:22.420 --> 15:34.160]  For those who didn't hear, we were able to social engineer Starbucks and the Russian tea room with all kinds of information they really shouldn't have given us but we had some problems with the phone.
[15:34.280 --> 15:38.200]  We weren't able to call out for some reason even though we had the phone set up.
[15:38.340 --> 15:39.320]  We had these phone lines put in.
[15:39.620 --> 15:46.020]  Actually, Lucky 225 did a great session on spoofing caller ID information which I believe you were successful in doing, correct?
[15:47.000 --> 15:52.380]  Yeah, I was successful but I didn't get to read most of my speech but I did put it up on the web.
[15:52.600 --> 15:53.360]  I've got to give it that URL.
[15:53.640 --> 15:54.420]  Okay, yeah, go ahead.
[15:54.580 --> 15:58.080]  Yeah, you can get the speech at verizonfears.com slash h2k2.
[15:59.000 --> 16:02.820]  Verizonfears.com Verizon fears you for sure of the things you were able to do.
[16:03.580 --> 16:11.340]  But we had those phone lines in there and when it came to the social engineering panel we realized that we couldn't dial long distance.
[16:11.460 --> 16:12.860]  We couldn't even dial 800 numbers.
[16:12.980 --> 16:13.500]  It was ridiculous.
[16:13.740 --> 16:15.500]  We were getting reorders and all kinds of things like that.
[16:15.820 --> 16:19.540]  So the response was unbelievable up there on stage and we were telling people this.
[16:20.020 --> 16:26.700]  Everybody came up with calling cards and various alternative ways to make phone calls and we had the problem solved within a matter of seconds.
[16:26.700 --> 16:30.380]  So we were able to call all kinds of places we wouldn't have ordinarily been able to do.
[16:30.560 --> 16:39.300]  Now Bernie, you've been intimately involved with getting these phone lines both installed and uninstalled and talking to Verizon, AT&T, all kinds of other nice people.
[16:39.540 --> 16:40.280]  What's the latest?
[16:40.600 --> 16:51.360]  I think I was involved too intimately, frankly, to the tune of probably several dozen telephone calls over the past couple of weeks getting this all set up and following up on Verizon's screw-ups.
[16:51.920 --> 16:58.820]  But Lucky, you made calls to 800 numbers and long-distance numbers during your CallRD spoofing panel, didn't you?
[16:59.180 --> 17:03.180]  Yes, I did through carrier access code 10102880.
[17:03.600 --> 17:06.240]  Okay, so you didn't actually make those calls directly.
[17:06.400 --> 17:08.000]  You went through the carrier access code?
[17:08.160 --> 17:11.620]  Yeah, I didn't really get a chance to call any of the 800s direct.
[17:12.680 --> 17:26.540]  earlier in the week after these lines were finally installed and we had dial tone on them, we had Verizon install AT&T long-distance and international service on them.
[17:26.760 --> 17:36.540]  And we had a couple of people do tests on those lines to verify that those services were on there and we could make long-distance international calls.
[17:36.720 --> 17:41.400]  In fact, calls were made to other states and other countries on both lines, just to be sure.
[17:41.820 --> 17:51.920]  Well, come Sunday when the social engineering panel was scheduled, we found out we couldn't make any calls at all to long-distance numbers.
[17:51.960 --> 18:00.020]  In fact, when you tried to get a Verizon message saying there's no long-distance service on this line and it was the case on both lines we had installed.
[18:00.440 --> 18:09.960]  So, we thought that was strange but we got around it as Emmanuel had mentioned through the help of not only a half dozen calling cards appeared on the table within seconds.
[18:10.060 --> 18:10.740]  It was unbelievable.
[18:11.620 --> 18:15.100]  We had trouble sorting them all out at the end but everybody claimed theirs and it was fine.
[18:15.760 --> 18:25.100]  But when I got a chance to rest from the conference and today I decided I'm going to call Verizon and AT&T and find out just exactly what happened.
[18:25.260 --> 18:28.060]  Why did the long-distance service disappear off these two phone lines?
[18:28.640 --> 18:42.060]  Well, first I called Verizon and after two or three phone calls I got consistent answers that there were no service records indicating that long-distance service had been had taken off either of those lines and I said well, how else could have happened?
[18:42.220 --> 18:45.940]  He said well, the only other party that could have done that would have been AT&T itself.
[18:46.180 --> 18:47.760]  I thought hmm, what a coincidence.
[18:50.240 --> 19:18.560]  So, I started calling AT&T's numbers and I literally made over about an hour and a half period of time I made 10 or 11 phone calls and in a 145 minute span I made 8 phone calls to the same number trying to reach a person who could answer that question as to why on July 9th was long-distance working and verified through AT&T and then why on Sunday,
[19:18.700 --> 19:25.080]  July 14th was it just mysteriously gone on both lines with no record on Verizon's system.
[19:25.440 --> 19:52.680]  Well, every time I called and these were like for a 45-minute period of time there were 8 calls to the same number trying to get once I found out the right number of the person people I should be talking to every time I was put on hold indefinitely and or transferred to like a black hole kind of thing normally expect that once or twice but I went through several AT&T customer service people after
[19:52.680 --> 20:08.360]  the second second attempt I asked each person to stay on the line with me while we were transferred I had a conference in to a third person, not a machine, who could answer my question every time I got hung up on.
[20:08.700 --> 20:12.760]  And the last guy I talked to turned out to be somebody I talked to before.
[20:12.760 --> 20:20.700]  He was rather flustered that I called him on his failure to do what he promised to do on a previous call.
[20:20.760 --> 20:29.760]  His name was Tully, and I reached him at 800-222-3000.
[20:29.760 --> 20:31.480]  I reached this guy named Tully.
[20:33.180 --> 20:36.780]  Boy, that's their main number for every AT&T phone in the universe.
[20:37.100 --> 20:38.720]  You can ask for a person at that number?
[20:39.800 --> 20:44.040]  Apparently, and I had to press 1 for it being a business line and so forth.
[20:44.640 --> 20:48.000]  But anyhow, I got him a second time after several attempts.
[20:48.160 --> 20:55.560]  And he was rather flustered when I told him, Listen, Tully, you promised you would stay on the line until I got a human being on the other end.
[20:55.780 --> 20:58.220]  And he was like, Well, whatever.
[20:58.680 --> 21:01.320]  And then he said, Well, we'll try it again.
[21:01.640 --> 21:03.640]  But tell you what, I'll give you...
[21:03.640 --> 21:10.280]  Instead, no, just in case you get cut off again, I'm going to give you a phone number that, in case you get cut off, you can call it directly yourself.
[21:10.420 --> 21:11.180]  And he gave me this number.
[21:11.280 --> 21:12.320]  You might want to write this down.
[21:13.160 --> 21:16.080]  800-800-822-2266.
[21:16.360 --> 21:18.080]  And I had him read it back to me a second time.
[21:18.160 --> 21:19.020]  And I wrote it down.
[21:19.020 --> 21:22.020]  And he said, Okay, now I'm going to transfer you to that number.
[21:22.020 --> 21:23.460]  And he transferred me.
[21:23.680 --> 21:24.660]  And guess what I got?
[21:25.200 --> 21:26.200]  I got like a...
[21:26.200 --> 21:26.700]  Go ahead.
[21:26.800 --> 21:29.180]  You cannot call this phone number from your area.
[21:29.480 --> 21:29.600]  No.
[21:29.700 --> 21:30.280]  Better than that.
[21:30.640 --> 21:32.580]  I got like a sex talk line.
[21:32.760 --> 21:33.020]  No.
[21:33.020 --> 21:34.840]  And he transferred me to it.
[21:35.400 --> 21:35.900]  Oh, my.
[21:35.900 --> 21:37.960]  So I know it wasn't I wrote the number wrong down.
[21:38.140 --> 21:39.440]  He transferred me to it.
[21:39.500 --> 21:40.780]  And I was like, What the hell?
[21:40.960 --> 21:41.820]  Maybe he transferred me wrong.
[21:41.900 --> 21:45.000]  Then I tried it myself twice, and I got the same thing.
[21:45.000 --> 21:45.780]  So...
[21:45.780 --> 21:48.220]  This must be what they do with problem customers.
[21:48.380 --> 21:49.600]  They transfer them to the sex line.
[21:49.780 --> 21:49.860]  Exactly.
[21:49.860 --> 21:55.820]  I'm convinced, because the last three or four calls I had to these folks, every one of them seemed like kind of dodgy.
[21:56.180 --> 22:01.180]  And they were just like a little flustered that I was pushing this issue.
[22:01.440 --> 22:14.660]  I'm convinced there was something on their screens that said exactly what the deal was with these two lines, where they were, why AT&T had removed long distance service on their lines, that sort of thing.
[22:15.020 --> 22:16.520]  And like when I said, was there any record on their lines?
[22:16.640 --> 22:20.060]  They were like, Well, I don't see anything.
[22:20.280 --> 22:21.360]  It's like that kind of thing.
[22:21.460 --> 22:22.720]  It was really interesting.
[22:23.400 --> 22:25.200]  And so that was my experience.
[22:25.260 --> 22:33.320]  And I have got to conclude, after having probably about a dozen calls to AT&T today, that they were messing with us.
[22:33.360 --> 22:43.080]  And they actually, without any legal reason to do so, terminated a long distance service on these two lines that we paid for.
[22:43.620 --> 22:44.100]  Mm-hmm.
[22:44.640 --> 22:47.680]  That's really interesting abuse of authority, in my opinion.
[22:47.760 --> 22:49.780]  Now, we specifically asked for AT&T long distance.
[22:49.960 --> 22:50.780]  Why did we do that?
[22:52.880 --> 22:54.000]  There must have been a reason.
[22:55.080 --> 22:57.600]  I don't know whether it was you or I had specified that.
[22:57.700 --> 22:58.680]  But in any case, that's what we got.
[22:58.680 --> 23:00.200]  I think lucky you specified it, right?
[23:00.200 --> 23:01.640]  You said we need to have AT&T long distance.
[23:01.640 --> 23:03.720]  I think I did, just because generally it seems...
[23:03.720 --> 23:03.720]  Was it you?
[23:03.820 --> 23:03.960]  Okay.
[23:03.960 --> 23:05.840]  It might have been one of us specified.
[23:05.980 --> 23:07.840]  Because it's generally reasonable quality.
[23:07.980 --> 23:08.100]  Mm-hmm.
[23:08.200 --> 23:12.420]  But the customer service clearly is not acting in a professional manner.
[23:12.820 --> 23:20.600]  If anyone in our listening audience works for AT&T and has a reasonable explanation of why Bernie S was transferred to a sex talk line, we'd love to hear it.
[23:20.720 --> 23:21.220]  Yeah, yeah.
[23:21.300 --> 23:26.700]  Email us, OTH at 2600.com, and maybe we can provide you with more information so we can investigate this a little bit further.
[23:26.880 --> 23:28.000]  It would be certainly fascinating.
[23:28.280 --> 23:28.560]  I don't know.
[23:28.660 --> 23:32.680]  Would they really think they could stop us by turning off the AT&T long distance part?
[23:32.680 --> 23:35.200]  I mean, first of all, you can call all of Verizon area.
[23:35.340 --> 23:36.340]  You can call all of New York City.
[23:36.740 --> 23:37.900]  It didn't make any difference.
[23:37.920 --> 23:39.180]  And you have the calling cards.
[23:39.360 --> 23:40.940]  You know, you're able to get out that way.
[23:42.340 --> 23:45.360]  It's typical response to something that they deem a threat.
[23:45.720 --> 23:48.260]  And it's funny because we didn't even do anything to AT&T this time either.
[23:48.780 --> 23:59.380]  But at our next conference, we should probably schedule a social engineering panel on Friday or maybe Saturday or whenever AT&T, probably Friday I guess, when all of AT&T will be open for business.
[23:59.640 --> 23:59.920]  Mm-hmm.
[23:59.920 --> 24:04.200]  Well, you know, it's more fun to schedule for Sunday because then they have to come in, you know, over the weekend.
[24:04.300 --> 24:06.660]  And they get very upset.
[24:07.260 --> 24:11.000]  But also they can attend the conference that way too because, you know, a lot of them aren't working then.
[24:11.100 --> 24:20.880]  And a lot of people showed up at 4 o'clock on Sunday just for that particular panel, which, you know, they paid the full admission price for the entire weekend, but they just wanted to see that one panel.
[24:21.300 --> 24:21.900]  That's interesting.
[24:22.020 --> 24:24.020]  Yeah, so it was fun.
[24:24.060 --> 24:25.120]  It was definitely a lot of fun.
[24:25.200 --> 24:26.800]  Social engineering was just one part.
[24:26.960 --> 24:28.180]  Bernie, what were some of your favorite panels?
[24:29.500 --> 24:31.920]  Well, you really pulled a rabbit out of the hat with that one.
[24:32.360 --> 24:33.740]  I was impressed.
[24:34.440 --> 24:34.660]  Yeah.
[24:34.660 --> 24:35.560]  There were so many.
[24:35.780 --> 24:37.420]  I mean, unfortunately, I didn't get a chance.
[24:37.560 --> 24:45.000]  I was running around trying to coordinate some, you know, put out fires and make things happen along with, you know, dozens of other people that made this thing happen.
[24:45.040 --> 24:46.240]  Not literally put out fires.
[24:46.360 --> 24:47.360]  We didn't have any fires.
[24:47.420 --> 24:47.760]  No, no.
[24:48.060 --> 24:51.340]  Just, you know, figuratively speaking.
[24:51.340 --> 24:51.620]  Yes.
[24:51.720 --> 24:57.060]  So people who want to go to the next one don't flip out and think, you know, I think a lot of people didn't go to New York because they were afraid.
[24:57.060 --> 25:06.560]  And I think the people who did go saw what a cool place it is, how you can hang out in the middle of New York City, across the street from Penn Station, and it's cool at four o'clock in the morning, just like it is in the middle of the day.
[25:07.760 --> 25:13.820]  And, you know, I think that's a major message that we got across, that it's safe to do these things.
[25:13.820 --> 25:17.300]  The few panels that I caught, there were some terrific ones.
[25:17.900 --> 25:19.820]  It's just, I can't even begin to list them all.
[25:19.960 --> 25:22.040]  There were, I probably saw 10 or 15.
[25:22.040 --> 25:35.280]  I was really stunned by how well our keynote speaker, Aaron Magruder, expressed some ideas that everyone in the audience seemed, well, almost everyone in the audience seemed to really get excited about.
[25:35.960 --> 25:44.000]  That was a great call, having him as our, I mean, he's a non-technical guy, he's not a hacker, but he is a hacker in a way, just a non-technical hacker.
[25:44.360 --> 25:44.520]  Right.
[25:44.820 --> 25:59.620]  Well, you know, I think that just being able to express yourself in a mainstream newspaper, and mainstream newspapers all over the country, in fact, every single day, you know, that's a real form of hacking right there, because you've gotten into a system that ordinarily would never let you in.
[26:00.480 --> 26:04.840]  And he's, every day, he's in there with boondocks, saying what he wants to say.
[26:05.820 --> 26:09.620]  And, you know, I think we need more people like that, that have that kind of independent mindset.
[26:10.580 --> 26:18.860]  So, and to see him along with Jell-O, along with Mark from Negative Land, and so many others that were there, it just meshed together so well.
[26:19.020 --> 26:20.460]  And I'm very happy that happened.
[26:20.980 --> 26:23.080]  It was just a great feeling throughout the conference.
[26:23.320 --> 26:26.940]  I mean, I think it was just, it was literally heartwarming.
[26:27.120 --> 26:27.420]  Mm-hmm.
[26:27.920 --> 26:33.280]  To, just to bask in this good feeling that seemed to pervade the entire conference.
[26:33.280 --> 26:33.820]  That's right.
[26:34.120 --> 26:34.600]  Hanukkah's here.
[26:34.940 --> 26:35.840]  Yes, I'm pointing at you.
[26:36.200 --> 26:38.940]  You were at the conference as well.
[26:39.060 --> 26:43.720]  You've been at many, many conferences in the past, in Holland and in various other places.
[26:44.140 --> 26:44.420]  Mm-hmm.
[26:44.480 --> 26:44.940]  What do you think?
[26:45.080 --> 26:45.100]  That's right.
[26:45.220 --> 26:45.860]  What do you think of it all?
[26:46.160 --> 26:47.520]  How did it come together for you?
[26:47.560 --> 26:48.700]  This is your first New York conference.
[26:49.040 --> 26:50.720]  Yeah, it's my first New York conference.
[26:50.720 --> 26:53.140]  I've been wanting to go ever since 1994.
[26:53.620 --> 26:55.040]  And I really liked it.
[26:55.500 --> 26:55.960]  Mm-hmm.
[26:55.960 --> 27:01.040]  I've been attending many hacker conferences in Amsterdam, in Holland and in Germany.
[27:01.580 --> 27:13.000]  And I like this one better because it was less technical and it was more about, it was more political and about the influence of technology and society.
[27:13.380 --> 27:13.440]  Mm-hmm.
[27:13.440 --> 27:24.480]  And I think that's important because, well, you can go sit together with a bunch of techno nerds and be very nerdy and very technical, but who else is gonna learn something from that?
[27:24.640 --> 27:30.320]  And I think it's very important to reach out to people who are not so technical and to make them aware of what's going on these days.
[27:30.540 --> 27:31.120]  Right, right.
[27:31.280 --> 27:33.320]  That's pretty much what we're trying to do.
[27:33.440 --> 27:36.860]  And of course, for the people that do want to be technical, there's always the means of doing that.
[27:37.020 --> 27:39.680]  There's, you know, the servers that you can play with.
[27:39.840 --> 27:42.860]  There's all kinds of different systems out there.
[27:43.000 --> 27:47.340]  We had a huge computer room where people could work on all kinds of things all night long.
[27:47.340 --> 27:50.900]  And there are plenty of technical talks as well for people that were into that.
[27:51.240 --> 27:52.460]  But, you know, why stop there?
[27:52.560 --> 27:56.120]  Why just limit it to, you know, security and technical issues?
[27:56.480 --> 28:07.220]  You want people literally to be able to walk in off Seventh Avenue and, you know, be fascinated by our world and say, wow, it's not just about sitting in front of, you know, a screen all night.
[28:07.580 --> 28:09.900]  It's something that I can actually sink my teeth into.
[28:09.900 --> 28:15.880]  And I see, you know, the social implications of, you know, of where this is heading, of what hacking is all about.
[28:16.420 --> 28:18.640]  And I just hope a lot of people came away from it with that.
[28:19.180 --> 28:20.200]  Yeah, I think so too.
[28:20.840 --> 28:29.340]  And after the closing ceremony, I was talking to an older American guy and it was the first time he was attending a hacker conference.
[28:29.600 --> 28:30.720]  And he said, what?
[28:31.000 --> 28:33.380]  Does it take two years before the next one is coming?
[28:34.380 --> 28:37.620]  Because he really liked it and he wanted to attend more conferences like that.
[28:37.620 --> 28:37.840]  Yeah.
[28:38.160 --> 28:44.300]  Probably the biggest question we've been asked, apart from when are the videos going to be released, is why don't you have this every year?
[28:44.520 --> 28:48.740]  Well, the reason, first of all, you know, we print a magazine and we want to focus on that primarily.
[28:50.260 --> 28:53.640]  If we did the conference every year, I think it would be predictable.
[28:53.640 --> 28:58.060]  I think it would start to become something that isn't different every time.
[28:58.420 --> 28:59.840]  And we want it to be different every time.
[28:59.960 --> 29:01.680]  It takes a couple of years to make this work.
[29:01.880 --> 29:04.860]  You know, we have to actually start planning the next one fairly soon.
[29:06.460 --> 29:10.140]  So, it's something that I don't think will ever be an annual thing.
[29:10.240 --> 29:12.180]  And I think that's probably best.
[29:14.220 --> 29:14.660]  Okay.
[29:14.880 --> 29:15.600]  AutoJack, you're here.
[29:16.100 --> 29:17.440]  I'm here as usual.
[29:18.160 --> 29:19.060]  What are you asking me?
[29:19.160 --> 29:21.520]  What are your impressions of the conference overall?
[29:22.300 --> 29:23.120]  Well, let's see.
[29:23.140 --> 29:25.160]  I was at H2K two years ago.
[29:25.380 --> 29:34.640]  And in comparison, I think the general mood of this one and the attitude of everybody involved seemed a lot better.
[29:34.820 --> 29:39.720]  It seemed a lot less, like, one-upsmanship and stuff like that.
[29:39.860 --> 29:41.600]  You know, people were cool.
[29:41.780 --> 29:43.320]  They cared about each other and stuff like that.
[29:43.660 --> 29:46.100]  I mean, there were a few bad apples, as you would expect.
[29:46.380 --> 29:49.660]  But beyond that, I think it went really well.
[29:49.740 --> 29:50.880]  It was a good conference.
[29:51.380 --> 29:51.700]  Yeah.
[29:52.680 --> 29:56.720]  It was, like you said before, it was a lot like, you know, going to a European conference.
[29:57.260 --> 29:57.500]  Mm-hmm.
[29:58.000 --> 29:58.240]  Yeah.
[29:58.300 --> 30:01.640]  I think it was also advantageous because a lot of us had been to the European conferences.
[30:01.640 --> 30:03.800]  So, I think, you know, we were able to take something out of that.
[30:03.940 --> 30:13.060]  And I've said many times before that I never would have been inspired to do the first hope back in 1994 had I not been to Galactic Hacker Party and HEU, both of which were Dutch conferences.
[30:14.320 --> 30:18.680]  Because here, you know, we just, I guess, didn't think that kind of thing was even possible to pull off here.
[30:19.860 --> 30:20.600]  But it is.
[30:20.700 --> 30:21.300]  It really is.
[30:21.560 --> 30:25.300]  And, you know, I'd like to see more such things, more such endeavors in other parts of the country as well.
[30:26.000 --> 30:28.060]  Next year, I believe, Hanukkah, maybe you know something about this.
[30:28.160 --> 30:30.300]  Is there a German computer camp again?
[30:30.380 --> 30:31.380]  Is that definite?
[30:31.600 --> 30:31.740]  Do you know?
[30:32.680 --> 30:35.040]  I don't know if it's sure that it will happen.
[30:35.260 --> 30:35.460]  Mm-hmm.
[30:35.580 --> 30:38.880]  But the last one was three years ago.
[30:39.120 --> 30:42.020]  So, it might be logical that there will be one next year.
[30:42.020 --> 30:42.480]  Okay.
[30:42.700 --> 30:48.840]  Well, that's something that we also want people to go places, you know, to visit these other places and see what other people are doing.
[30:49.120 --> 30:53.300]  So, rather than have another conference here in New York next year, go someplace else next year.
[30:53.380 --> 30:53.940]  Learn from that.
[30:54.060 --> 30:56.800]  And then a year after that, come back here and share that with people.
[30:56.900 --> 30:58.260]  And that's hopefully how it will go.
[30:59.480 --> 31:00.440]  Bernie, you still there?
[31:00.800 --> 31:01.580]  I'm still here.
[31:01.680 --> 31:01.940]  Okay.
[31:02.320 --> 31:07.460]  Well, any other impressions before we go into some news items and then take some phone calls?
[31:08.480 --> 31:10.400]  I'm still kind of overwhelmed by the whole thing.
[31:10.400 --> 31:15.400]  I feel like in a daze that this has all actually happened.
[31:15.600 --> 31:15.800]  Mm-hmm.
[31:16.020 --> 31:20.280]  And now that it's over, it's just, you know, we've been preparing this thing for months.
[31:20.520 --> 31:20.740]  Mm-hmm.
[31:20.800 --> 31:23.640]  And it almost seemed to move in slow motion in a way.
[31:24.120 --> 31:24.560]  Yeah.
[31:25.160 --> 31:25.600]  Yeah.
[31:25.760 --> 31:26.800]  It was great.
[31:26.800 --> 31:28.120]  I mean, I feel jet lag still.
[31:28.280 --> 31:29.880]  It's now Wednesday, you know.
[31:30.020 --> 31:31.680]  And we haven't caught up on sleep.
[31:31.860 --> 31:39.480]  You know, it's amazing how you're able to adjust to something like three hours sleep a night and still be into it.
[31:40.880 --> 31:46.360]  You know, I think this was something so many people were just completely primed for.
[31:46.360 --> 31:50.620]  And they just didn't want to, you know, to let anything go wrong.
[31:50.740 --> 31:52.160]  And they were there for the whole thing.
[31:52.780 --> 31:59.580]  One of the things that really struck me, Emmanuel, I think you touched on this, is there were a lot of first-time attendees at this one as well.
[31:59.760 --> 31:59.860]  Mm-hmm.
[32:00.060 --> 32:03.340]  I think we had probably, literally we had thousands of people here.
[32:03.440 --> 32:06.600]  But I talked to a lot of people who had never been to one of these before.
[32:07.380 --> 32:14.680]  And they were just completely stunned at how much fun and how interesting this was.
[32:14.680 --> 32:17.960]  And they all vowed that they're definitely coming back next time.
[32:18.800 --> 32:28.100]  So I thought if, you know, first-time people's impression on this was, you know, a lot of other people kind of knew what to expect for the most part because they'd have been involved with the previous conferences we'd done.
[32:28.460 --> 32:35.440]  But to have a lot of first-time people, some of them non-technical, just to be so wowed by this, I thought that was a really good sign.
[32:36.020 --> 32:43.480]  Yeah, and not only vowed to come back, but vowed to tell people between now and then that this is what the hacker world is really all about.
[32:43.480 --> 32:48.160]  This is the spirit that pervades our environment here.
[32:48.520 --> 32:53.440]  And when you hear how much of a threat the hackers are to the world, well, think about this.
[32:53.520 --> 32:54.240]  Think about this weekend.
[32:54.400 --> 32:58.800]  Think about how true that really is and how ridiculous that really is.
[32:59.740 --> 33:03.700]  Information sharing, education, meeting people, that kind of thing.
[33:03.760 --> 33:04.700]  That's what it's all about.
[33:04.720 --> 33:08.200]  And I hope that's, you know, that's something that we keep in mind.
[33:09.920 --> 33:21.060]  Well, I saw something, and I never thought I'd say this, but evidence of a major good social trend at H2K2.
[33:21.880 --> 33:28.980]  There were a lot of women there compared to in previous years, compared to in the stereotype of hackerdom.
[33:29.440 --> 33:33.020]  And they weren't just hacker groupies, of which there are a few.
[33:33.140 --> 33:36.020]  They weren't just people's girlfriends, men's girlfriends.
[33:36.760 --> 33:42.320]  Well, these were independent women who came in for whatever reason.
[33:42.320 --> 33:44.640]  They had an interest in the subject and the topics.
[33:46.280 --> 33:48.780]  And I think we finally turned the curve.
[33:48.980 --> 33:52.440]  You know, they say that the population is slightly more than 50% women.
[33:53.920 --> 33:55.980]  And obviously somebody's calling to disagree.
[33:57.700 --> 33:59.480]  But I think we've turned the curve.
[33:59.600 --> 34:02.660]  I would say that the attendees were a good 20% female.
[34:02.660 --> 34:03.520]  Mm-hmm.
[34:03.740 --> 34:06.240]  And it's a great, great trend.
[34:07.140 --> 34:18.880]  Yeah, I think a lot of that you can pretty much say is because of listeners to this radio station, listeners to the webcasting, things like that.
[34:20.540 --> 34:30.200]  I just want to say, though, that I spoke with a number of women who were at the conference and felt really uncomfortable at some of the things that were said to them.
[34:31.700 --> 34:36.380]  And I think we have a lot of work to do in making an inclusive community.
[34:36.580 --> 34:37.260]  What kinds of things?
[34:39.400 --> 34:41.580]  Things I'd rather really not repeat on the air.
[34:42.540 --> 34:42.840]  Okay.
[34:46.640 --> 34:56.780]  And I don't think we should be engaged only in, you know, patting ourselves on the back because if we're 20% female or whatever, it was...
[34:57.880 --> 35:01.500]  In some ways it was a very diverse group, but in other ways it was not.
[35:01.700 --> 35:04.200]  And I think we still have a lot of work to do there.
[35:04.460 --> 35:07.420]  Well, you know, it's important to bring in people from all over.
[35:08.960 --> 35:19.700]  I'm not of the opinion that we should be targeting particular types of people, you know, too much to bring in because then it's not really like they're part of the community.
[35:19.700 --> 35:24.960]  It's like we're bringing them in and, you know, boosting them on our shoulders and saying, hey, you're one of us.
[35:25.440 --> 35:29.860]  People should come because they want to, you know, not because they fit a particular demographic.
[35:30.120 --> 35:36.360]  But at the same time, people who want to come but don't feel comfortable coming because of the demographics.
[35:37.100 --> 35:38.300]  I think that's a problem.
[35:38.500 --> 35:50.340]  It's a problem, but I'm not sure how you would fix that problem other than to try and educate people, you know, when the conference is not taking place and encourage them to come to the conferences when they're here, you know.
[35:50.820 --> 35:54.000]  Those people who actually showed up, those are the people I want to hear from.
[35:54.140 --> 35:56.880]  You know, were they uncomfortable or is there something there that they didn't like?
[35:57.320 --> 36:01.160]  Definitely, let's hear about that and let's see what we can change for next time.
[36:02.200 --> 36:04.880]  But, you know, I don't know if anybody else heard anything like that.
[36:05.400 --> 36:07.280]  This is the first I've heard of something like this.
[36:07.280 --> 36:07.840]  Anika?
[36:09.820 --> 36:14.900]  Well, I've never... I have not experienced any nasty things at this conference.
[36:15.180 --> 36:17.560]  And in fact, I almost never have.
[36:17.780 --> 36:25.540]  In my experience, computer freaks are usually less sexistic than, well, the average doe in the streets.
[36:25.680 --> 36:33.380]  Because if you have... if you share the same interests, you might as well be green and purple stripes and they don't really care.
[36:33.380 --> 36:37.500]  As long as you are interested, they will just talk and everything.
[36:37.780 --> 36:43.520]  And not really act weird because you're a woman, in my experience.
[36:44.300 --> 36:44.500]  Okay.
[36:44.740 --> 36:47.700]  Well, again, you are from Holland, though, where people are a bit saner.
[36:47.820 --> 36:52.240]  But I do tend to agree, though, that that's what I see around here.
[36:52.360 --> 36:54.080]  But I know there's certainly exceptions to that.
[36:54.580 --> 36:56.280]  And it's important for us to talk about it.
[36:57.560 --> 36:58.440]  Jeff, how are the pictures?
[37:00.100 --> 37:02.400]  I think the pictures turned out well.
[37:02.400 --> 37:02.720]  Yeah.
[37:02.940 --> 37:05.940]  Everything I have here that I'll ultimately show you at some point.
[37:06.140 --> 37:07.940]  It's all raw, but we'll work on it.
[37:08.440 --> 37:13.900]  I did want to make just a couple of comments as far as just how well I thought this went.
[37:14.700 --> 37:16.380]  I went to H2K.
[37:16.920 --> 37:18.100]  We went to Amsterdam.
[37:18.900 --> 37:21.560]  And it's definitely a different flavor over there.
[37:21.880 --> 37:25.740]  But it was nice to see the support that we got back from our friends over there.
[37:25.740 --> 37:30.680]  I enjoyed Benny with the locksmithing and lockpicking, rather.
[37:31.640 --> 37:31.840]  Barry.
[37:32.200 --> 37:32.620]  Barry.
[37:32.820 --> 37:33.000]  Yes.
[37:33.500 --> 37:35.000]  Someone called him Bernie, too.
[37:35.260 --> 37:35.440]  Yeah.
[37:35.600 --> 37:36.420]  I apologize.
[37:38.420 --> 37:39.340]  Aaron Magruder.
[37:39.580 --> 37:41.660]  I got to see because I was taking the pictures.
[37:41.660 --> 37:42.980]  I had to jump around.
[37:43.160 --> 37:49.040]  I may not have caught every piece of every speech, but I tried to get around to get pictures of everyone in every room.
[37:49.320 --> 37:51.520]  And what I did catch was amazing.
[37:51.740 --> 37:52.580]  The Sealand guys.
[37:52.800 --> 37:53.600]  That was incredible.
[37:53.780 --> 37:53.860]  Yeah.
[37:53.980 --> 37:54.540]  Yeah, it was.
[37:54.720 --> 37:55.300]  It was really...
[37:55.300 --> 37:57.000]  And they were wonderful.
[37:57.000 --> 38:00.880]  And the conversations and talks that went on outside of the rooms.
[38:01.040 --> 38:01.300]  Mm-hmm.
[38:01.900 --> 38:05.180]  I was listening to Jello Biafra and the guy from Negative Land.
[38:05.320 --> 38:07.600]  They were talking at the table while he was selling his things.
[38:07.820 --> 38:08.000]  Mm-hmm.
[38:08.000 --> 38:11.900]  And just their conversation was fun to listen to while I was taking pictures.
[38:12.640 --> 38:13.260]  So it was...
[38:13.260 --> 38:14.680]  The whole thing was quite refreshing.
[38:14.900 --> 38:20.160]  It's great to be able to bring people from all these different backgrounds together and see how they get along.
[38:20.900 --> 38:21.280]  So...
[38:21.280 --> 38:24.720]  And also, we have to thank the hotel because they've been unbelievable.
[38:24.960 --> 38:28.060]  Hotel Pennsylvania was just so good to us this weekend.
[38:28.060 --> 38:29.300]  They made sure that...
[38:29.300 --> 38:30.680]  I mean, the elevators actually worked.
[38:31.460 --> 38:31.820]  Not...
[38:31.820 --> 38:33.520]  I'm not talking about just regular elevators.
[38:33.680 --> 38:34.980]  They've been refurbished and everything like that.
[38:35.060 --> 38:36.340]  And they worked much better than they did before.
[38:36.560 --> 38:42.760]  But we had an express elevator from the second floor of the network room up to the 18th floor where the speakers were.
[38:42.920 --> 38:43.960]  And they worked great, you know.
[38:44.080 --> 38:47.180]  Basically, you didn't have to worry about all the tourists getting on different floors.
[38:47.420 --> 38:49.740]  It just went straight from one part of the conference to the other.
[38:50.400 --> 38:52.600]  And it worked practically flawlessly.
[38:52.820 --> 38:56.680]  We had a little bit of a problem with the escalators, but they were on that pretty quickly.
[38:57.660 --> 39:00.160]  And, you know, I think they were very responsive.
[39:00.440 --> 39:02.180]  And that's certainly the place we'd like to do it again.
[39:02.360 --> 39:03.780]  And certainly the attendees.
[39:03.900 --> 39:08.440]  The attendees caused no problems at all as far as the hotel is concerned.
[39:08.640 --> 39:11.080]  And I think that also makes a great difference.
[39:11.180 --> 39:20.820]  In fact, that's what's enabled the Hope Conference to continue is the fact that our attendees have always been very well-behaved and mature and really a pleasure to be around.
[39:20.820 --> 39:22.820]  So thanks to all those people as well.
[39:22.980 --> 39:33.900]  The only other points that I'd like to make is I want to thank a gentleman named Bob Shattuck for donating a huge van load of retrocomputing equipment that we were able to bring in.
[39:34.360 --> 39:50.120]  And what was also interesting, I don't even know if you're aware of it, but the pocket calculator guys were able to actually do their radio show right up there from the floor Saturday night as they have their regular scheduled time on their shortwave station.
[39:50.120 --> 39:51.200]  That's pretty cool.
[39:51.440 --> 39:51.540]  Yeah.
[39:51.940 --> 39:56.140]  We've got to thank Ken and Adam for rigging up a voice over IP connection.
[39:56.500 --> 40:11.100]  Just like within an hour, they rigged this thing up and got a switch network call up to WBCQ, which is a shortwave transmitter in Maine, which broadcast at 50,000 watts.
[40:12.100 --> 40:23.060]  And this show, the pocket calculator show, which is really about the electronics of the 70s and 80s and how consumer electronics had more of a soul to it back then.
[40:23.240 --> 40:25.720]  And we did a live broadcast for an hour there.
[40:25.820 --> 40:29.140]  We had a lot of the attendees came and talked about why they were there.
[40:29.280 --> 40:31.540]  And it was really great.
[40:31.720 --> 40:37.140]  And Ken and Adam at the NOC really pulled that thing off out of a hat.
[40:37.140 --> 40:42.820]  And when I brought portable shortwave radio with me, I was able to hear the transmission from Maine right there at the hotel.
[40:43.560 --> 40:44.600]  And it was great.
[40:44.740 --> 40:50.100]  And those guys, Jay and Paul, from that show, they were completely stunned.
[40:50.200 --> 40:51.540]  They'd never been to one of these things before.
[40:51.720 --> 40:55.300]  And they were stunned that that was just able to be thrown together by hackers so quickly.
[40:55.300 --> 40:59.840]  And they came away with a completely different viewpoint of what the hacking community is all about.
[41:00.320 --> 41:00.680]  Great.
[41:00.940 --> 41:02.760]  And that, I think, is the theme.
[41:02.760 --> 41:07.560]  And made that very clear during their whole hourly broadcast, which went to most of the Western Hemisphere.
[41:08.820 --> 41:09.260]  Okay.
[41:09.460 --> 41:10.800]  We want to open up the phone lines.
[41:10.960 --> 41:15.820]  Those people who were at the conference or who participated in some way, please give us a call.
[41:15.880 --> 41:19.000]  Let us know your impressions of what H2K2 was like for you.
[41:21.160 --> 41:25.340]  Briefly, we have back in the real world where we have to pay attention occasionally.
[41:26.140 --> 41:27.860]  All of this great news.
[41:28.000 --> 41:34.500]  The House of Representatives has voted overwhelmingly, this was on Monday, to create a new punishment of life imprisonment for malicious computer hackers.
[41:36.020 --> 41:37.660]  It sounds good, maybe.
[41:37.820 --> 41:38.880]  Malicious computer hackers.
[41:39.080 --> 41:41.480]  But then again, who defines what malicious is?
[41:41.660 --> 41:47.720]  And why would a malicious computer hacker get worse for a sentence than, you know, a rapist or a killer?
[41:47.720 --> 42:00.660]  By a 385-3 vote, the House approved a computer crime bill that also expands police ability to conduct internet or telephone eavesdropping without first obtaining a court order.
[42:01.760 --> 42:03.020]  Now, listen to this.
[42:03.200 --> 42:10.180]  This is unbelievable, what was said by the bill's sponsor, Lamar Smith, Republican of Texas.
[42:10.180 --> 42:18.940]  Until we secure our cyber infrastructure, a few keystrokes, and an internet connection is all one needs to disable the economy and endanger lives.
[42:19.460 --> 42:23.340]  A mouse can be just as dangerous as a bullet or a bomb.
[42:23.740 --> 42:29.520]  So, therefore, anyone using a mouse is equivalent to using a bomb.
[42:29.620 --> 42:38.020]  You know, it's really, if you make a mouse dangerous, as dangerous as a bomb, you know, you really can't blame the people that click on things.
[42:38.020 --> 42:42.100]  It's a design problem, then, if that's what we're looking at.
[42:42.260 --> 42:43.400]  But life imprisonment.
[42:43.520 --> 42:44.320]  Life imprisonment.
[42:44.360 --> 42:47.240]  That's what they're actually floating, 385-3.
[42:48.260 --> 42:50.620]  And they're also... Bernie, I think you know about this.
[42:50.720 --> 42:56.140]  They're also redoing some parts of the ECPA concerning listening to cellular phone calls.
[42:56.240 --> 42:56.780]  Do you know about this?
[42:56.960 --> 42:58.580]  Not just cellular phone calls, Emmanuel.
[42:58.580 --> 43:17.880]  Well, back, as you know, back in 86, when the Electronic Communications Privacy Act was enacted, it basically was the first law in the history of this country that made it a crime to listen to certain radio frequencies, which, you know, up since 1934,
[43:17.880 --> 43:21.280]  the Communications Act, anybody could, any U.S.
[43:21.300 --> 43:23.340]  citizen could listen to any radio frequency they wanted to.
[43:23.500 --> 43:32.960]  And if it was private communications they happened to overhear, as long as they didn't repeat it to another person or profit from what they overheard, it was fine, which makes a lot of sense, frankly.
[43:32.960 --> 43:48.000]  In 86, the cellular lobby got legislation enacted that made it a criminal offense to listen to Rod Swast of the radio spectrum, which were easily tunable on most older television sects.
[43:48.140 --> 43:56.340]  But anyhow, Congress did itself this week when it amended the Electronic Communications Privacy Act and made it a federal felony.
[43:56.340 --> 44:19.920]  Before it was a minor offense, now it's a federal felony to overhear, and it doesn't have to be any malice or any kind of bad intent at all, to listen to radio frequencies that are, quote, let me get the, not readily accessible to the general public, end quote.
[44:19.920 --> 44:22.800]  What if we make it readily accessible to the general public?
[44:22.920 --> 44:23.780]  Then will they change this?
[44:23.920 --> 44:26.620]  I mean, you know, if everybody... First of all, it is readily accessible.
[44:26.780 --> 44:28.860]  Anyone with an old TV set can listen to these frequencies.
[44:29.700 --> 44:36.540]  And anyone can get a scanner fairly easily that can get these frequencies as well, you know, through Canada or other countries.
[44:37.020 --> 44:50.880]  I mean, I used to demonstrate this at conferences not too long ago, where you'd simply turn on the scanner and there would be people on cellular phone calls broadcasting in the clear, you know, and thinking that their conversations were private.
[44:51.060 --> 44:57.580]  And now if I demonstrate this, I'm facing five years in jail, just for turning on a scanner and listening to something that's out there open.
[44:57.860 --> 44:59.880]  And it's not just... I don't want people to get the wrong impression.
[45:00.000 --> 45:01.160]  This is just cellular phone calls.
[45:01.280 --> 45:05.540]  Any cordless phone calls, which are still readily hearable on any...
[45:05.540 --> 45:15.140]  Any scanner you buy at any consumer electronics store, whether it's Kmart or Radio Shack, they're all capable of tuning analog cordless phone calls.
[45:15.300 --> 45:20.020]  And without even trying, just put it in search mode, like it'll fall on one of them.
[45:20.740 --> 45:24.080]  Also, baby monitors would probably fall under this.
[45:24.180 --> 45:31.840]  And voice pagers, you know, the old voice paging systems, some of which are still around, they would be considered falling under this new law.
[45:31.980 --> 45:38.120]  And there's a whole host of other broad transmissions that are not readily accessible to the general public.
[45:38.120 --> 45:47.500]  And I think where this is going, frankly, Emmanuel, is this is going towards the criminalization of monitoring public service radio frequencies.
[45:47.940 --> 45:56.020]  Police, law enforcement radio frequencies, I think, will probably be lumped under this broad umbrella.
[45:56.320 --> 46:09.200]  And anyone listening to police, fire, public service stuff in the future may well be a felon, and could be imprisoned for up to five years in a federal prison.
[46:09.320 --> 46:10.640]  This is truly insane.
[46:10.800 --> 46:20.940]  And this smacks, clearly, of some of those really harsh societies that have, many of which have been done away with and have become obsolete.
[46:20.940 --> 46:35.500]  You know, former Soviet Union, Eastern Europe under the Stasi, where you could get locked up in prison for listening to a radio receiver on frequencies other than the state-sanctioned broadcast.
[46:35.840 --> 46:38.160]  And this is really, really scary stuff.
[46:40.200 --> 46:52.800]  I think before, one thing I wanted to say before too many people get too scared by the life in prison thing, which when I first saw that, you know, popping up on some of these news groups and chat rooms, I started panicking a little bit.
[46:52.800 --> 47:09.340]  But I did spend a couple hours today digging through all the legislation, and it's only in the case of someone knowingly or recklessly causing or attempting to cause death, which is a little more specific than, you know, Slashdot and most of the geek news sites and chat rooms have been making it sound.
[47:09.880 --> 47:12.660]  Who determines that they intended to cause death?
[47:13.280 --> 47:14.860]  Well, in that case, it's the...
[47:15.640 --> 47:25.800]  I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that since that's the way the statute's worded, I think it would be the government's responsibility to prove that they recklessly or knowingly caused or attempted to cause death.
[47:26.060 --> 47:34.380]  Well, the knowingly and intent clause or phrase, I personally learned, was very creatively...
[47:34.380 --> 47:38.020]  can be very creatively used by federal prosecutors and law enforcement.
[47:38.200 --> 47:50.720]  It's, you know, even after all said and done in my case, they even stated in writing there were no victims in the offense, but they still said for purposes of the charges that it was done knowingly and with intent.
[47:51.360 --> 47:58.440]  And, you know, that basically doesn't narrow things down very much when it comes down to reality.
[47:59.960 --> 48:01.720]  Now, I don't... frankly, I don't think any...
[48:01.720 --> 48:09.580]  I don't think many people are going to go to prison for life, but it doesn't take life in prison to really have a profound impact on...
[48:09.580 --> 48:10.960]  negative impact on somebody's blood.
[48:11.040 --> 48:18.140]  You lock somebody up for even a day or a month or a year, in my case, or five years and you have a Metnich case.
[48:20.340 --> 48:22.460]  It's... you know, that's criminal in my opinion.
[48:22.500 --> 48:25.960]  And people will say, if you don't get life, boy, you got off easy.
[48:26.160 --> 48:29.600]  When in actuality you should be saying, why in God's name send people like this to prison?
[48:30.740 --> 48:34.340]  You know, we're not talking people that are terrorists here.
[48:34.440 --> 48:42.840]  We're talking about people playing around with computers and maybe getting someplace they shouldn't get or figuring something out that they shouldn't figure out, or maybe just listening to something that's publicly accessible.
[48:42.840 --> 48:43.380]  Who knows?
[48:43.380 --> 48:52.180]  There are prison cells, and I think there's a good reason to have some prison cells, for people who are truly too physically dangerous for society.
[48:52.400 --> 48:52.640]  Yeah.
[48:52.980 --> 48:57.900]  And I don't think the people they're writing this legislation for fall under that category, frankly.
[48:58.400 --> 48:58.640]  Mm-hmm.
[48:59.200 --> 49:12.180]  I think another interesting thing in this legislation is they're directing the Sentencing Commission to review their sentencing guidelines, which certainly do need to be reviewed, whether or not they're going to go in the correct direction in terms of,
[49:12.180 --> 49:14.000]  you know, reducing rather than increasing sentences.
[49:14.000 --> 49:14.520]  I don't know.
[49:15.060 --> 49:22.240]  But they are actually asking that they consider, you know, what kind of computer system it was, was there intent, what were the possible risks.
[49:22.500 --> 49:35.820]  And, you know, I think those are things that have, you know, very frequently been neglected in a lot of these cases where people who, you know, like Bernie, who are, you know, guilty of just trivial misconduct, if anything, got, you know, incredibly long sentences.
[49:35.820 --> 49:47.460]  If the difference between hacking the White House website and turning off the electric power grid for the entire world or entire country is, you know, is defined, then maybe there's a chance that they might see how ridiculous some of these sentences are.
[49:47.680 --> 49:50.460]  Anyway, I want to get to the phones, so we only have a couple of minutes for that.
[49:50.520 --> 49:51.860]  So let's take some phone calls.
[49:52.620 --> 49:53.800]  212-209-2900.
[49:53.920 --> 49:54.160]  Good evening.
[49:54.280 --> 49:54.680]  You're on the air.
[49:55.220 --> 49:56.840]  Hey, what's up, Manuel?
[49:57.060 --> 49:57.440]  How you doing?
[49:58.380 --> 50:01.100]  Hey, it was my first conference that I just went to.
[50:01.640 --> 50:03.500]  H2K2 for, you know, H2K2.
[50:03.680 --> 50:06.480]  And I just wanted to let you know how much fun I have there.
[50:06.900 --> 50:07.220]  Great.
[50:07.780 --> 50:15.140]  And not only were the panels great, but I thought it was so cool that everyone actually, you know, brought their old computers in.
[50:15.240 --> 50:23.620]  But not only did they bring them in, you know, they brought the manuals and stuff, so you could really, you know, if you didn't know how to use them, you know, you could play around and write some cool stuff on them for people to walk by and see.
[50:24.000 --> 50:24.420]  That's right.
[50:24.520 --> 50:35.580]  Mr. Rome had a retrocomputing neighborhood set up, and a lot of people participated in that, had some old computers, and really learned a lot and saw some interesting demonstrations from the past.
[50:36.000 --> 50:44.600]  Even Dragborn and myself found a 1970-73 videotape machine, which wasn't working.
[50:44.760 --> 50:56.360]  And we spent about three hours getting that thing working, hooking it up to, like, old computer speakers and an old monitor, and we actually got the thing going, and we found an old movie on one of these reel-to-reel videos, and we actually played it and watched this movie.
[50:56.460 --> 50:56.760]  It was great.
[50:57.520 --> 50:58.860]  Yeah, I was standing around looking at that.
[50:59.040 --> 51:03.940]  The rewinder box was huge alone, you know, just to rewind the tapes on it.
[51:04.660 --> 51:07.920]  But it was a lot of fun, and I'm sure I'll be there at the next one.
[51:08.120 --> 51:08.880]  Okay, where are you calling from?
[51:09.680 --> 51:10.280]  Atlanta, actually.
[51:10.360 --> 51:10.940]  I drove up there.
[51:10.940 --> 51:11.740]  Okay, great.
[51:11.840 --> 51:12.540]  Well, glad you had fun.
[51:12.680 --> 51:13.240]  See you next time.
[51:13.620 --> 51:13.940]  All right, see you.
[51:14.140 --> 51:14.720]  All right, take care.
[51:15.280 --> 51:16.040]  Let's take another phone call.
[51:16.640 --> 51:17.700]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[51:18.600 --> 51:20.660]  All right, you missed your chance.
[51:21.060 --> 51:22.220]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[51:23.420 --> 51:25.060]  Oh, hey, Manuel, it's Montag.
[51:25.520 --> 51:26.380]  Hey, how you doing?
[51:27.060 --> 51:27.820]  Pretty good, how?
[51:27.960 --> 51:29.880]  You've got an interesting-sounding phone there.
[51:30.760 --> 51:32.440]  Oh, is it sound...
[51:32.440 --> 51:34.620]  Here, let me take the hands-free thing off of it.
[51:34.740 --> 51:35.880]  It's probably best, yes.
[51:38.700 --> 51:39.440]  Is that better?
[51:39.440 --> 51:40.600]  It's a little better, yeah.
[51:41.200 --> 51:41.300]  Yeah.
[51:41.300 --> 51:42.500]  So did you have...
[51:42.500 --> 51:47.580]  You were one of the people handling security that worked tireless hours.
[51:47.860 --> 51:53.520]  Yeah, I worked mainly on the 18th floor, and I did something a little bit different than a lot of other people.
[51:53.520 --> 51:58.660]  I made sure I was well-rested every day so I wouldn't be cranky when I was doing security.
[51:59.260 --> 51:59.540]  Mm-hmm.
[51:59.860 --> 52:11.020]  And the two most amazing things that I saw at the con was, number one, just how quickly Cult of the Dead Cow could fill a room and empty a room.
[52:14.260 --> 52:24.820]  And because I was stage security there, and I couldn't tell how quickly the room was emptying when it from my vantage point right next to the stage.
[52:25.120 --> 52:25.320]  Mm-hmm.
[52:25.320 --> 52:30.920]  And the other thing was actually seeing a lock get picked closed.
[52:31.880 --> 52:34.720]  Yeah, I guess we should mention what that was all about.
[52:34.940 --> 52:45.520]  We had one room that was going to the main power breaker, and it just shouldn't have been accessible, and there was no... the door was unlocked.
[52:45.520 --> 52:54.540]  So we had Barry the Key from the Netherlands actually for the first time pick a lock in order to lock it rather than to unlock it so that that room was then secured.
[52:55.080 --> 52:58.180]  And it was, you know, hacker ingenuity at its best.
[52:58.640 --> 53:01.720]  Yeah, and I really did enjoy the diversity.
[53:01.880 --> 53:09.040]  Work in security, you get to meet so many more people than I guess you would normally meet if you were a regular attendee.
[53:10.480 --> 53:11.920]  I mean, just out of course.
[53:12.060 --> 53:14.860]  Whether you want to or not, you're going to meet a lot of people.
[53:16.780 --> 53:19.200]  And meeting... who was the spy guy?
[53:20.160 --> 53:20.940]  Robert Steele.
[53:21.380 --> 53:22.400]  Yeah, Robert Steele.
[53:22.520 --> 53:23.140]  He was great.
[53:23.360 --> 53:27.640]  And I talked to him a little bit in the bar next door afterwards.
[53:27.880 --> 53:30.060]  And also...
[53:30.060 --> 53:37.680]  And Michael Levine from WBAI, he was there on Friday night, really captured the audience's attention for a couple of hours.
[53:38.120 --> 53:39.960]  Yeah, I missed out on him.
[53:40.140 --> 53:46.280]  And I think he was like when his actual, originally scheduled time came up.
[53:46.380 --> 53:50.180]  I think he was asked about more than anybody else.
[53:50.380 --> 53:54.120]  And great disappointment when people found out that he had already...
[53:54.120 --> 53:58.620]  he had rescheduled and had already spoken.
[53:58.840 --> 53:59.080]  Yeah.
[53:59.660 --> 54:04.140]  All the talks will be available online in both audio and video format.
[54:04.140 --> 54:07.520]  And of course the videotapes will be available at some point in the future as well.
[54:08.180 --> 54:10.160]  So we hope to do that as soon as possible.
[54:10.580 --> 54:12.120]  Yeah, I had a great time.
[54:12.260 --> 54:14.480]  That was only my second conference.
[54:14.640 --> 54:18.240]  My first one I went to was SummerCon here in the D.C.
[54:18.280 --> 54:18.520]  area.
[54:19.640 --> 54:21.480]  And I had a great time with both.
[54:21.700 --> 54:22.660]  I had a...
[54:22.660 --> 54:26.020]  You know, I was much more involved in HTK 2.
[54:26.320 --> 54:28.560]  So, of course, that one wins out.
[54:28.560 --> 54:32.640]  But anyway, and thanks for letting me participate in such a great way.
[54:32.740 --> 54:33.840]  I really appreciate it.
[54:34.320 --> 54:34.540]  Okay.
[54:34.620 --> 54:35.980]  Thanks for participating.
[54:36.140 --> 54:36.800]  It made a big difference.
[54:37.340 --> 54:43.500]  And a reminder to Bernie, he still needs to send me some omni-directional antenna information.
[54:44.260 --> 54:44.580]  Okay.
[54:44.820 --> 54:45.180]  Reminder.
[54:45.240 --> 54:45.620]  Okay, guys.
[54:45.740 --> 54:46.480]  Has been sent out.
[54:46.600 --> 54:48.080]  Thanks for calling.
[54:48.500 --> 54:48.740]  All right.
[54:48.820 --> 54:49.100]  Bye-bye.
[54:49.280 --> 54:49.580]  Take care.
[54:50.480 --> 54:50.880]  Yeah.
[54:52.280 --> 54:54.980]  I noticed that you never said anything about our music performance.
[54:55.040 --> 54:56.060]  Oh, you know, I never did.
[54:56.060 --> 54:56.720]  I'm sorry.
[54:56.940 --> 54:59.220]  There was some great music downstairs.
[55:00.040 --> 55:01.180]  How about them Game Boys?
[55:01.340 --> 55:02.500]  Oh, it's unbelievable.
[55:04.240 --> 55:06.320]  Well, Tim and the other guy's name was what?
[55:06.480 --> 55:06.880]  Nullsleep.
[55:07.080 --> 55:07.700]  Nullsleep, yeah.
[55:08.020 --> 55:09.880]  They were dueling Game Boys.
[55:10.020 --> 55:12.020]  I mean, I'm not a musician, but I appreciate that.
[55:12.020 --> 55:17.120]  I appreciate what was going on there, just being able to hang out in the middle of the night listening to these guys playing Game Boys.
[55:17.240 --> 55:18.860]  And Tim's here.
[55:18.860 --> 55:19.480]  Yes.
[55:19.700 --> 55:20.300]  That was...
[55:20.300 --> 55:21.760]  What was that experience like for you?
[55:22.100 --> 55:23.620]  It was a lot of fun.
[55:23.980 --> 55:29.560]  We were really busy printing stuff out and doing lots of things, you know, throughout the whole event.
[55:29.700 --> 55:34.240]  So I only got to see like two of the panels, but the music performances went great.
[55:34.640 --> 55:34.820]  Yeah.
[55:34.980 --> 55:38.100]  And of course, AutoJack also had his musical performance as well.
[55:39.380 --> 55:40.760]  And, you know, that was all...
[55:40.760 --> 55:43.800]  I wish more people could have seen that because that was...
[55:43.800 --> 55:48.980]  There were less people downstairs than there were upstairs, but I think it was really, really cool.
[55:49.260 --> 55:54.500]  It just shows how people can, you know, can use their laptops and make some really cool sounds out of them.
[55:54.560 --> 55:55.940]  And the Game Boy Battle was really cool.
[55:56.040 --> 55:56.980]  The Game Boy Battle was great.
[55:57.200 --> 55:57.740]  It really was.
[55:58.520 --> 55:58.840]  All right.
[55:58.840 --> 56:00.720]  Let's see if we can fit in one or two more.
[56:00.940 --> 56:01.220]  Good evening.
[56:01.320 --> 56:01.760]  You're on the air.
[56:02.720 --> 56:03.120]  All right.
[56:03.180 --> 56:04.060]  That one, we're not going to fit in.
[56:04.140 --> 56:04.800]  Let's fit in this one.
[56:04.880 --> 56:05.120]  Good evening.
[56:05.220 --> 56:05.680]  You're on the air.
[56:06.580 --> 56:06.860]  Yes.
[56:07.100 --> 56:09.200]  I was at the conference, and I enjoyed it.
[56:09.220 --> 56:10.120]  You're losing your touch, though.
[56:10.260 --> 56:11.540]  You're like the fifth caller now.
[56:11.720 --> 56:12.260]  Okay, go ahead.
[56:12.400 --> 56:12.620]  Yeah, I know.
[56:13.180 --> 56:23.100]  But I like the way the media was there because I think the media is very important to tell the whole story about what hacking is all about.
[56:23.100 --> 56:27.380]  And I like, you know, my piece on Channel 5, the local stock station.
[56:27.680 --> 56:28.000]  But I...
[56:28.000 --> 56:28.860]  Do you have...
[56:28.860 --> 56:29.940]  I have a videotape.
[56:30.280 --> 56:30.980]  You have a videotape.
[56:31.040 --> 56:32.500]  So you're going to give us that videotape, right?
[56:32.500 --> 56:32.680]  Yes.
[56:32.680 --> 56:37.860]  And I have an audio tape of the 10th News Radio WINS piece.
[56:38.280 --> 56:39.560]  I'd like to hear that as well.
[56:39.560 --> 56:41.360]  If you could get that to us, I'd be most appreciated.
[56:41.360 --> 56:45.220]  I could email that to you, and I can do that as well.
[56:47.540 --> 56:48.140]  What else?
[56:50.100 --> 56:50.580]  Um...
[56:52.880 --> 56:57.960]  For over half a million young people every weekend, a good night out means breaking the law.
[56:58.440 --> 56:59.420]  Breaking the law.
[56:59.960 --> 57:00.940]  Breaking the law.
[57:01.460 --> 57:02.240]  Breaking the law.
[57:02.240 --> 57:02.440]  Breaking the law.
[57:08.280 --> 57:09.120]  And good evening.
[57:09.320 --> 57:09.860]  You're in the air.
[57:09.980 --> 57:10.240]  Hi.
[57:11.420 --> 57:19.420]  I didn't go to the, uh, to the convention, but I did see Bernie and, um, not Bernie as, um, Rebel on Channel 5.
[57:19.620 --> 57:21.060]  Wow, that must have been, uh, an experience.
[57:21.060 --> 57:21.640]  It was.
[57:21.900 --> 57:24.900]  I was like, oh, but I am glad to hear that more women showed up.
[57:24.980 --> 57:26.620]  It's just that I couldn't make it.
[57:26.980 --> 57:28.200]  Short on funds and all.
[57:28.460 --> 57:29.960]  Well, you got two years.
[57:30.100 --> 57:30.380]  Okay.
[57:30.860 --> 57:31.540]  All right, thanks.
[57:31.720 --> 57:32.220]  Thanks for calling.
[57:32.800 --> 57:33.980]  Thanks to everybody who showed up.
[57:34.080 --> 57:35.900]  Thanks to everybody who made this into what it was.
[57:36.120 --> 57:37.580]  I thought it was an incredible event.
[57:38.300 --> 57:40.280]  And there were so many people we didn't get to thank.
[57:40.280 --> 57:40.880]  I know that.
[57:41.040 --> 57:42.020]  I know they're all out there.
[57:43.160 --> 57:44.640]  Um, we couldn't have done it without you.
[57:45.040 --> 57:46.760]  And you're the reason we're going to do it again.
[57:46.760 --> 57:50.580]  So, um, for everyone here, have a good night.
[57:50.980 --> 57:51.920]  Bernie, thank you.
[57:52.220 --> 57:52.760]  Thank you.
[57:52.940 --> 57:57.040]  And we'll see you here next week, same time, same station.
[57:57.520 --> 57:57.780]  Good night.
[57:57.780 --> 58:08.550]  Time of Collective.
[58:47.350 --> 58:50.150]  Time of Collective.