[00:08.990 --> 00:21.520]  And this is radio station WBAI New York, where the time is 7 o'clock, and that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[02:44.760 --> 02:45.820]  And a good evening to everybody.
[02:45.920 --> 02:46.960]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:47.240 --> 02:50.240]  Emanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour or so.
[02:51.520 --> 02:54.500]  And joining us this evening in the studio, AutoJack.
[02:55.140 --> 02:55.800]  Ahoy, ahoy.
[02:56.740 --> 02:57.260]  Thank you.
[02:57.320 --> 02:58.280]  Thank you so much for that.
[02:58.560 --> 02:59.360]  Mike.
[02:59.620 --> 03:00.220]  Good evening.
[03:00.780 --> 03:01.280]  And Jim.
[03:01.540 --> 03:01.860]  Hello.
[03:06.120 --> 03:08.400]  And it's been a fun week, as always.
[03:09.620 --> 03:14.120]  Still recovering from H2K2 and starting to get some pictures up.
[03:14.640 --> 03:21.280]  Pictures and post-conference stories and things like that.
[03:21.380 --> 03:23.340]  So your input is welcome.
[03:23.340 --> 03:25.820]  If you are at the conference, we'd like to hear your experiences.
[03:26.340 --> 03:32.120]  You can send that email to feedback at h2k2.net.
[03:33.260 --> 03:44.940]  And, of course, if you have pictures, send those to pictures at h2k2.net or send us the links so that we can copy them over to our site and have a nice little photo album for people to, you know, to remember.
[03:45.400 --> 03:52.080]  Because there are a lot of things to remember and a lot of things that we should focus on and learn for the next time.
[03:52.420 --> 03:55.440]  We'll be putting up the audio of all the panels.
[03:55.620 --> 03:56.640]  We're working on that right now, in fact.
[03:57.140 --> 04:02.360]  And hopefully that will start appearing later on this week and throughout the next couple of weeks.
[04:02.400 --> 04:04.660]  And then we'll also have videos ready as well.
[04:06.120 --> 04:16.560]  So before we get started with news updates on the electronic frontier, as it were, does anyone here have anything they'd like to bring to the table?
[04:17.880 --> 04:18.580]  Nothing at all?
[04:18.800 --> 04:19.140]  Nothing?
[04:19.540 --> 04:19.700]  No.
[04:19.820 --> 04:20.460]  I'm shaking my head.
[04:20.600 --> 04:21.380]  Nobody ever has anything?
[04:21.440 --> 04:23.800]  Oh, okay, Jim, you have something related to H2K2, I guess.
[04:23.960 --> 04:24.960]  Well, yeah, sort of.
[04:24.960 --> 04:27.000]  I just thought I'd mention this.
[04:27.840 --> 04:34.200]  The latest issue of Time Out New York, the magazine that started in London that tells you what's going on if you want to go out.
[04:34.380 --> 04:35.140]  Is that a free magazine?
[04:35.400 --> 04:36.360]  Oh, no, no, no, no.
[04:36.380 --> 04:36.840]  You have to pay for it, okay.
[04:36.940 --> 04:39.060]  Yeah, it does say free in large letters on the cover.
[04:39.060 --> 04:42.400]  No, that just happens to be the cover story, which is free things to do in New York.
[04:42.560 --> 04:43.020]  But if you do these things...
[04:43.020 --> 04:44.660]  Picking up that magazine is not one of them, apparently.
[04:44.920 --> 04:50.500]  No, but if you spend the money to do these things, you won't be spending money on things like these things.
[04:50.640 --> 04:52.320]  So you'll get back the cost of the magazine.
[04:52.440 --> 04:57.440]  Well, just before we started issuing calls for a boycott of the magazine, I just figured we'd, you know, start asking if that's...
[04:57.440 --> 04:58.920]  It's sort of like free Kevin.
[04:59.140 --> 05:01.240]  You don't get a free Kevin if you protest.
[05:01.440 --> 05:01.660]  Uh-huh.
[05:01.840 --> 05:03.340]  You get Kevin free.
[05:04.120 --> 05:05.560]  I know it's subtle, but it...
[05:05.560 --> 05:05.940]  Well, anyway.
[05:06.080 --> 05:06.520]  Yeah, yeah.
[05:06.620 --> 05:10.340]  And speaking of which, Kevin will be free in just over...
[05:10.340 --> 05:11.780]  just under six months now.
[05:12.040 --> 05:12.600]  Truly free.
[05:12.880 --> 05:13.440]  Yeah, that's good.
[05:13.480 --> 05:15.040]  So we're keeping an eye on that.
[05:15.160 --> 05:18.680]  Expect some more, you know, a bigger clock to be actually counting down.
[05:18.680 --> 05:29.620]  Because remember the last time this happened, back in whatever year that was, 92, 93, he was really, really close to being finished with his supervised release when they came for him.
[05:29.740 --> 05:32.680]  And that's when the whole, you know, takedown saga began.
[05:33.480 --> 05:38.120]  We don't want to see a repeat of that, so we're going to be keeping a real close eye on Kevin's status.
[05:38.120 --> 05:42.360]  Make sure that he isn't in any way harassed or targeted.
[05:42.360 --> 05:50.620]  So, yeah, just under six months, January 15th, I believe, in 2003, is when he can actually walk around, go anywhere he wants, use a computer.
[05:51.180 --> 05:51.300]  Yeah.
[05:52.080 --> 05:55.520]  Treble in fear, America, because Kevin Mitnick will use a computer again.
[05:56.020 --> 05:56.740]  Oh, boy.
[05:57.140 --> 06:02.660]  Hopefully the stories will all come to an end then, and, you know, he can get on with his life for the first time in over 10 years.
[06:03.280 --> 06:05.200]  Now, Jim, as far as this timeout...
[06:05.200 --> 06:06.320]  Back to timeout New York.
[06:06.540 --> 06:07.660]  They have a...
[06:07.660 --> 06:11.020]  It's a weekly magazine, and they have a technology column.
[06:11.020 --> 06:28.320]  And this week's focuses on a little bit from H2K2, specifically the talk with you and Robin Gross, the lawyer from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the DMCA case.
[06:28.720 --> 06:37.080]  They've got it mostly right, a few little things wrong, almost key, but not terribly wrong.
[06:37.080 --> 06:43.760]  One of the things that I've seen get wrong a number of times, on that panel, we were supposed to have one of our other lawyers, Ed Hernstead, on there.
[06:43.940 --> 06:49.380]  He was called away at the last minute to take a deposition someplace, and we put Mackie on that panel.
[06:49.560 --> 06:53.260]  You know, Mackie, our former webmaster, because he was also involved in the whole DECSS thing.
[06:53.720 --> 07:00.200]  All these people are now assuming that Mackie is Ed Hernstead, one of our lawyers, and it's being listed that way, you know, throughout the net.
[07:00.400 --> 07:01.080]  So if you have...
[07:01.080 --> 07:02.380]  They don't look at all alike.
[07:02.380 --> 07:03.060]  No, they don't.
[07:03.140 --> 07:06.000]  But you wouldn't know that if you didn't see either one of them before.
[07:06.140 --> 07:10.620]  And I'm not sure if at the beginning of the panel we were clear as to the fact that that was Mackie and not our lawyer.
[07:12.480 --> 07:19.880]  So people might get the impression that we hire extremely young lawyers that, you know, have different color hair, depending on what week it is.
[07:20.020 --> 07:20.660]  I don't know.
[07:20.780 --> 07:23.240]  Maybe that's why the judges are always so angry with us.
[07:23.820 --> 07:27.580]  But if you have a, you know, a web page like that, I don't want to make the correction.
[07:27.920 --> 07:28.820]  But anyway, Jim, go ahead.
[07:28.820 --> 07:35.180]  Yeah, so it's just a little article on the case and covers it fairly well.
[07:35.320 --> 07:36.660]  And it gives a link to you.
[07:37.980 --> 07:40.240]  And actually to 2600.com.
[07:40.320 --> 07:41.160]  The DCSS case.
[07:41.180 --> 07:42.500]  Does it talk about the conference much?
[07:42.960 --> 07:44.200]  No, not much.
[07:44.200 --> 07:47.440]  Just mentions that that's where this was.
[07:48.400 --> 07:49.060]  I'm looking.
[07:49.220 --> 07:50.100]  You're holding the cover up now.
[07:50.220 --> 07:52.200]  It does say free in really, really big letters there.
[07:52.700 --> 07:54.240]  They're asking for trouble, you know?
[07:56.080 --> 08:00.480]  Well, yeah, but did you take, steal this book with the Abbie Hoffman book literally 30 years ago?
[08:00.520 --> 08:02.040]  I never stole any book like that.
[08:02.040 --> 08:03.700]  Neither did I, but I saw the title.
[08:03.860 --> 08:04.820]  I stole that book.
[08:04.940 --> 08:05.220]  Did you?
[08:05.460 --> 08:05.640]  Yeah.
[08:06.120 --> 08:08.160]  I used to have a copy of that book and I don't anymore.
[08:08.380 --> 08:09.760]  I think I may have stolen it from you.
[08:09.760 --> 08:10.780]  We'll talk after the show.
[08:11.780 --> 08:14.160]  We have a lot of feedback about H2K2.
[08:14.160 --> 08:17.720]  So, let's go into some of that.
[08:18.940 --> 08:22.720]  I'm also going to some news stories in just a little bit.
[08:26.220 --> 08:27.720]  Okay, of course I misplaced it.
[08:28.180 --> 08:30.740]  I thought I had it in this pile here.
[08:30.960 --> 08:32.620]  Ah, here we go.
[08:34.880 --> 08:35.760]  H2K2 feedback.
[08:36.420 --> 08:37.200]  Pile of mail.
[08:38.020 --> 08:41.980]  Just a note to congratulate you and extend my profound thanks for another great con.
[08:42.460 --> 08:44.280]  H2K2 was without a doubt the best yet.
[08:44.900 --> 08:48.680]  The feeling was much more like a howl or one of the other European cons.
[08:48.880 --> 08:51.520]  Everyone was really focused and very mellow at the same time.
[08:52.380 --> 08:55.640]  Tons of great information and opinions changed hands freely.
[08:55.800 --> 08:57.080]  And that's what it's all about.
[08:58.080 --> 09:00.820]  H2K2 was the first con for my nephew, Tony, age 13.
[09:00.820 --> 09:03.280]  His dad brought him and a friend in Friday night.
[09:03.440 --> 09:05.600]  He's shown me a lot of potential over the last two years.
[09:05.740 --> 09:07.200]  Built his own box this year.
[09:07.900 --> 09:08.940]  I don't know what kind of a box.
[09:09.000 --> 09:09.620]  I guess a machine.
[09:09.880 --> 09:11.040]  I figured it was time.
[09:11.040 --> 09:13.700]  I got to teach him a bunch of stuff down in the network room.
[09:13.840 --> 09:15.500]  I also bought him a copy of Freedom Downtime.
[09:15.600 --> 09:17.960]  They watched it beginning to end about 20 times already.
[09:19.060 --> 09:20.620]  I think that's about the life of a video.
[09:20.920 --> 09:22.920]  But that's from Random Sample.
[09:23.000 --> 09:23.940]  Thanks very much for that feedback.
[09:24.300 --> 09:25.940]  And it's good to know people had fun.
[09:27.620 --> 09:29.040]  They had to have been exaggerating.
[09:29.200 --> 09:29.540]  You think?
[09:29.820 --> 09:30.020]  Yeah.
[09:30.180 --> 09:31.600]  Playing it 20 times or having a lot of fun?
[09:31.720 --> 09:32.680]  Playing it 20 times.
[09:34.820 --> 09:36.260]  I haven't even seen it that many times.
[09:36.420 --> 09:36.580]  Yeah.
[09:37.620 --> 09:38.200]  Let's see.
[09:38.360 --> 09:39.260]  Another piece of feedback.
[09:39.680 --> 09:42.340]  We can't read all of them because there's just way too many of them.
[09:43.220 --> 09:44.400]  Not that that's a bad thing.
[09:44.500 --> 09:45.960]  And if you have feedback, please send it to us.
[09:46.540 --> 09:51.200]  Again, feedback at h2k2.net or you can send feedback to the show, OTH at 2600.com.
[09:51.860 --> 09:53.240]  I just wanted to express my gratitude.
[09:53.380 --> 09:54.860]  This is a good hacker convention this year.
[09:54.980 --> 09:55.960]  I enjoyed every aspect of it.
[09:56.000 --> 09:57.520]  I will definitely come to future cons.
[09:57.820 --> 10:00.200]  I just wanted to comment on how the security teams were.
[10:00.300 --> 10:03.400]  I asked one of your security guards what frequency they were using for their radios.
[10:03.520 --> 10:07.000]  And he just replied with, There's no darn way you can tune us in this year.
[10:07.720 --> 10:09.180]  You'll never find our frequency.
[10:10.580 --> 10:13.260]  About 15 seconds after this, I found the radio frequency.
[10:13.260 --> 10:17.360]  I then proceeded to tell everyone what it was and made a few papers and posted them for everyone to see.
[10:17.800 --> 10:26.020]  A little while after doing this, a few security guards got real uptight about it and proceeded to make rather rude comments and threats about what they would do to me if they heard anyone at all transmit on that frequency.
[10:26.480 --> 10:38.180]  I talked with a person downstairs who told me that this type of activity was both welcome and encouraged by yourself at the cons and that last year they had a problem with security surrounding them in between the doors at the front of the hotel because they too had revealed the security frequency.
[10:38.920 --> 10:42.200]  That person said that they should drop you a line if security gave you any crap.
[10:42.380 --> 10:44.500]  And that's what this person has done.
[10:47.060 --> 10:48.080]  Thanks, keep up the good work.
[10:48.160 --> 10:48.700]  Signed, Jeremiah.
[10:49.460 --> 10:55.220]  And yes, you are correct to let us know about this over-exuberance on the part of some people.
[10:55.240 --> 10:58.560]  This was not at all representative of what security was supposed to be doing.
[10:58.580 --> 11:07.880]  And if there was one or two people that were making crude remarks or saying anything at all threatening to anybody, that's something that we need to know about.
[11:07.900 --> 11:09.360]  It would be nice to know who this was.
[11:09.520 --> 11:11.180]  It would be nice to know if they even were part of security.
[11:11.180 --> 11:14.900]  Sometimes people pretended to be people they weren't.
[11:14.980 --> 11:16.260]  It happens at hacker conventions.
[11:16.680 --> 11:30.860]  But I can assure you the people that ran security, the people in charge, were well aware of the openness, the open environment that encouraged people to actually find frequencies and listen and that kind of a thing.
[11:30.960 --> 11:34.500]  And yeah, we were able to get radio frequencies that couldn't be interfered with this year.
[11:34.500 --> 11:37.240]  So, you know, it wasn't really even an issue.
[11:37.980 --> 11:41.140]  And if people were interfering, then, you know, we would have to deal with it.
[11:41.220 --> 11:41.900]  We'd work out a way.
[11:42.040 --> 11:46.600]  But in no way do we ever want to be in a position where we tell people they're not allowed to do something.
[11:46.780 --> 11:52.240]  And if you look at pictures of the main board, I think you will see that piece of paper on there that had the frequency.
[11:52.240 --> 11:54.000]  It was there, I think, all three days.
[11:54.480 --> 11:59.640]  And it was very loudly proclaimed what our frequencies were.
[12:00.960 --> 12:01.860]  So, I don't know.
[12:02.060 --> 12:07.420]  If anyone else has any comments or feedback, both good or bad, we certainly want to hear it.
[12:08.820 --> 12:11.700]  This was in response to something we were talking about last week.
[12:12.140 --> 12:13.380]  I was at H2K2.
[12:13.560 --> 12:16.860]  I was... well, it doesn't really matter specifically who this person was.
[12:16.960 --> 12:21.840]  But I disagree with what was said about females coming or not coming to the conference because of treatment by other males.
[12:22.160 --> 12:24.580]  I do think it is harder on legitimate female hackers.
[12:24.700 --> 12:28.060]  I feel that we have to prove ourselves more because of the image that many of them give off.
[12:28.060 --> 12:31.680]  I'm sure you've heard the term scene whores before.
[12:31.920 --> 12:34.280]  And unfortunately, that is what many women are.
[12:34.640 --> 12:42.800]  Even ones with good intentions find it too easy to get credit card numbers and anything else they want from men who get overly excited that they even know how to turn their computers on.
[12:43.040 --> 12:46.300]  And I'm more than happy to fall in the shadow of a significant hacker other.
[12:46.820 --> 12:49.540]  I work sales and tech support for a large computer retailer.
[12:50.020 --> 12:52.940]  I constantly have to prove myself to male IT members.
[12:52.940 --> 12:57.520]  They often get threatened that a girl has provided their tech support and feel they have to one-up me.
[12:57.520 --> 13:00.260]  I've also been asked to transfer them to a male staff member.
[13:01.060 --> 13:03.280]  Girls in the industry can be just as catty.
[13:03.400 --> 13:09.380]  They want to believe that they are the only girl who knows anything about IT and won't take help from another female.
[13:11.440 --> 13:16.720]  Regardless of all this, I have never been discouraged enough to not want to go to conferences or let it take away from my enjoyment of it.
[13:16.760 --> 13:24.700]  I found the men to be very accepting of me and very respectful once they realize that I do know what I'm talking about and might, gasp, actually even know more than them.
[13:25.660 --> 13:29.060]  The people at the conferences are some of the most respectful people I've met.
[13:30.600 --> 13:34.920]  Personally, I don't like talking about what I know or what I'm into just because I like the anonymity of the internet.
[13:35.180 --> 13:38.620]  I often choose non-gender-related names because I don't want special treatment.
[13:38.960 --> 13:43.440]  I don't like the constant attention given because I'm a girl and not because I know my crap.
[13:43.980 --> 13:49.880]  That's a personal decision, but I don't think that you should change advertisements or focus on catering to women and minorities to get more in.
[13:49.880 --> 13:51.280]  I love the conference for what it is.
[13:51.360 --> 13:52.240]  I've always felt welcomed.
[13:52.640 --> 13:55.480]  I've never met a woman who won't come because she doesn't feel welcomed.
[13:55.640 --> 14:00.080]  I think that changing the target audience might bring more people in, but not necessarily the people I love seeing there.
[14:00.760 --> 14:02.480]  I like the mixture of people that I meet there.
[14:02.560 --> 14:05.480]  I like seeing this subculture, this underground culture, if you will.
[14:07.140 --> 14:08.060]  That's pretty much it.
[14:08.200 --> 14:09.320]  That's signed Debbie.
[14:09.320 --> 14:12.240]  Thanks very much for that feedback on that.
[14:13.360 --> 14:16.660]  And I guess that's pretty much all the H2K2 feedback we have.
[14:17.220 --> 14:18.360]  Actually, okay, one more.
[14:18.560 --> 14:19.380]  One more piece.
[14:19.700 --> 14:22.820]  Someone sent in a copy of a memo.
[14:22.980 --> 14:25.120]  This is not the infamous AT&T memo.
[14:25.220 --> 14:25.860]  This is a different one.
[14:27.860 --> 14:38.360]  I don't think I should read the name of the company, but basically the memo that got passed around was to all employees, and it said, subject attention, social engineering, importance level high.
[14:39.180 --> 14:43.200]  There is a large hacker conference planned this weekend in New York, July 12th through 14th.
[14:43.940 --> 14:49.420]  We do know that one of the activities they have on their agenda is a social engineering contest to be held Sunday at 4 p.m.
[14:49.960 --> 15:01.040]  Previous conference history tells us that the contestants target long-distance carriers and other companies and use them as an example of how easy it is to persuade someone to give information about the company and or their customers.
[15:02.300 --> 15:04.720]  Social engineers are masters of deception.
[15:05.380 --> 15:07.700]  There are various tactics and scenarios used.
[15:07.900 --> 15:16.600]  The most common scam that this company's fraud department sees accounted for 27% of the total fraud losses to our customers in 2001.
[15:17.380 --> 15:21.080]  A social engineer poses as a company employee.
[15:21.240 --> 15:25.780]  They call into a company's main line, normally via toll-free service, and say they are testing the line.
[15:25.780 --> 15:33.400]  The social engineer requests to be transferred to 9, 0, pound, or 9, 0, or an extension that begins with 9, 0.
[15:33.900 --> 15:38.720]  9 gives them dial tone, and 0 gives them the ability to make operator-assisted calls at the customer's expense.
[15:39.000 --> 15:45.240]  This is a load of garbage, because I don't know if you guys remember this, but years ago we were getting this all the time.
[15:45.340 --> 15:49.140]  People would send out these warnings saying, don't ever transfer somebody to 9, 0, you know.
[15:49.660 --> 15:54.520]  It's, you know, yeah, there's some companies that have really badly designed PBXs where that's an issue.
[15:55.540 --> 15:57.780]  But very few, I think, remain.
[15:58.040 --> 16:04.100]  And certainly no home customers have this kind of a problem, because you can't dial 9 and get an outside line.
[16:04.100 --> 16:05.460]  You can't even transfer people.
[16:06.520 --> 16:09.580]  And the social engineering panel has never even tried to do that.
[16:09.640 --> 16:10.760]  That's not what social engineering is.
[16:10.760 --> 16:12.660]  That's conning a free phone call.
[16:12.820 --> 16:16.320]  And it's actually going to a lot of trouble to get a free phone call, too.
[16:17.660 --> 16:21.920]  Anyway, the reminder on this memo was, never give out any information about us or our customers.
[16:21.920 --> 16:23.780]  Do not transfer calls outside our company.
[16:23.900 --> 16:26.140]  The phone company does not test their lines in this manner.
[16:28.300 --> 16:31.020]  And basically, that's the gist of it.
[16:31.520 --> 16:38.340]  It's fun to imagine that this kind of memo went out to so many different people and got so many of the key facts wrong.
[16:39.140 --> 16:44.920]  Basically, you know, this is not something that you have to be aware of on July 14th at 4 p.m.
[16:44.980 --> 16:45.680]  on a Sunday afternoon.
[16:45.760 --> 16:47.820]  This is something that you need to be aware of all the time.
[16:48.540 --> 16:53.420]  You know, giving out personal information, giving out private, confidential stuff.
[16:53.780 --> 16:55.200]  That should be policy.
[16:55.320 --> 16:56.520]  You don't do that at any time.
[16:56.640 --> 17:05.840]  And I think what we proved during that particular panel was that, you know, people will give out whatever you ask them to if they believe that you're somebody that is entitled to that information.
[17:06.000 --> 17:07.500]  And that's kind of a scary thing.
[17:07.500 --> 17:08.940]  We've got someone's credit card number.
[17:09.200 --> 17:10.800]  We've got someone's home phone number.
[17:10.800 --> 17:17.840]  We were able to change restaurant reservations and potentially bring down an entire network at a Starbucks.
[17:19.340 --> 17:23.660]  We should make an announcement that every third Sunday at 3 p.m.
[17:23.660 --> 17:25.120]  is social engineering hour.
[17:25.480 --> 17:25.720]  Yeah.
[17:26.120 --> 17:27.140]  Yeah, that would be something.
[17:27.220 --> 17:36.760]  Imagine we dispense with the rest of the conference and we just rent a room somewhere in Manhattan and have a social engineering panel at a certain time and see if the memos go flying.
[17:38.160 --> 17:46.860]  Okay, let's take a look at some news and we'll take phone calls, 212-209-2900 if the telephones are cooperating today.
[17:47.580 --> 17:54.980]  Here's a story that just got posted today entitled, CyberSquatter Must Shut Anti-Abortion Sites.
[17:55.240 --> 18:04.040]  A federal judge has ordered a man to shut down anti-abortion websites with domain names confusingly similar to the trademark names of some of the nation's best-known companies.
[18:04.040 --> 18:05.140]  U.S.
[18:05.440 --> 18:06.340]  District Court Anne D.
[18:06.540 --> 18:10.600]  Montgomery issued a temporary restraining order on Tuesday against William S.
[18:10.820 --> 18:20.900]  Purdy, Sr. on behalf of McDonald's Corporation, PepsiCo Inc., Coca-Cola Company, The Washington Post Company, and WashingtonPost.Newsweek Interactive Co.
[18:21.780 --> 18:22.380]  Yeah.
[18:22.600 --> 18:29.000]  She ordered Purdy to immediately shut down his websites with the confusing names and transfer their ownership to the appropriate companies.
[18:29.240 --> 18:39.340]  Purdy said Tuesday that he'll appeal and is buying addresses like bloodycoca-cola.com or pepsideathmills.com to continue his anti-abortion protest.
[18:39.620 --> 18:42.860]  Purdy, who represented himself, argued that the issue is free speech.
[18:42.860 --> 18:48.860]  He has said that he opposes the post-abortion rights editorial position and coaxed contributions to Planned Parenthood.
[18:49.200 --> 18:53.480]  Most of the sites which divert traffic to anti-abortion websites were set up July 4th.
[18:53.640 --> 18:56.740]  The sites contained disclaimers and graphic images of aborted fetuses.
[18:57.880 --> 18:58.520]  I don't know.
[18:58.660 --> 19:05.500]  I gotta stand up here and say that maybe this is the only time in my life I'll ever say this, but I totally agree with this guy.
[19:05.640 --> 19:11.680]  This guy has every right to have a website with a confusing name if he wants or a name that directs people somewhere else.
[19:11.800 --> 19:23.240]  If you are looking for information on abortion and you get a bloody fetus instead, I think it might occur to you that you've been redirected to a site that you didn't intend to type in and maybe you'll get it right the next time.
[19:23.380 --> 19:31.260]  In any event, these things he's typing with Pepsi and McDonald's obviously have nothing to do with Pepsi or McDonald's.
[19:31.400 --> 19:36.280]  It's a complete speech issue, regardless of whether or not you agree with the speech.
[19:36.480 --> 19:37.600]  Am I off base here?
[19:37.960 --> 19:39.400]  I agree with you totally.
[19:39.700 --> 19:46.940]  I mean, if you type in F General Motors and go to Ford, you're obviously not a friend of General Motors.
[19:47.200 --> 19:48.360]  You won that case.
[19:48.480 --> 19:49.040]  Yeah, right.
[19:49.040 --> 19:52.680]  If you type in bloody Coca-Cola, you are not a fan of Coca-Cola.
[19:52.820 --> 19:53.680]  Probably not, no.
[19:54.660 --> 19:56.500]  We're looking for a product they don't yet market.
[19:57.460 --> 19:57.860]  Hopefully.
[19:58.120 --> 19:58.220]  Yeah.
[19:59.660 --> 20:00.040]  Exactly.
[20:00.640 --> 20:01.260]  In this country.
[20:02.080 --> 20:03.880]  Who knows what they're doing in Southeast Asia.
[20:04.040 --> 20:09.460]  But, yeah, I mean, I really think that this is a big mistake as far as telling somebody...
[20:09.460 --> 20:11.020]  I think it depends how...
[20:11.020 --> 20:14.320]  Does the article say what the domain names in question are?
[20:14.440 --> 20:15.880]  They didn't say what the confusing...
[20:16.460 --> 20:17.640]  Because it's bloody Coca-Cola.
[20:17.640 --> 20:22.560]  But they did say it was confusingly similar to the trademark names of some of the nation's best-known companies.
[20:22.920 --> 20:27.960]  So it wasn't like they were taking Planned Parenthood with one N or something like that and sending them to an anti-aboy.
[20:27.960 --> 20:34.160]  But, you know, even if they were doing that, I think anybody who would type that in and get that information would say, this doesn't sound like something Planned Parenthood would say.
[20:34.760 --> 20:41.660]  And, you know, the only real solution to that is for people to register hundreds of domain names with every possible misspelling.
[20:41.660 --> 20:44.620]  And, you know, I just don't think that that's viable.
[20:45.120 --> 20:49.360]  I think what you should do is see about filing a brief as a friend of the court.
[20:49.480 --> 20:50.900]  Well, I don't want to go too far here.
[20:51.460 --> 20:53.100]  I want to say on the record, I agree.
[20:53.240 --> 20:55.740]  The guy is, you know, I think he has a right to free speech.
[20:55.800 --> 20:58.400]  But I'm not going to stand up next to this person in court.
[20:58.900 --> 21:04.940]  Everybody who believes in free speech by having domain names should stick together.
[21:04.940 --> 21:08.740]  Well, yeah, but that would be a really big crowd of people if we all got together.
[21:08.940 --> 21:14.440]  It puts you in with strange bedfellows, I admit, but still, you know, I think you should stick together with this guy.
[21:14.440 --> 21:18.720]  I just think there's a lot of regular bedfellows I should be in with first before I get to the strange ones, you know.
[21:18.840 --> 21:19.400]  I don't know.
[21:20.440 --> 21:21.920]  I think this is my way.
[21:23.600 --> 21:29.500]  I just think this is my way of saying that this is wrong, you know, by voicing it this way.
[21:29.980 --> 21:34.780]  Well, later on, make a soundbite of this and email it to him and have him link to it or whatever.
[21:35.080 --> 21:37.700]  Yeah, then I'm going to get all kinds of mail, you know, from all kinds of people.
[21:37.920 --> 21:39.740]  But, yeah, okay, I agree.
[21:40.080 --> 21:41.720]  EFF should probably make a statement on this.
[21:41.940 --> 21:43.240]  ACLU should certainly make a statement on it.
[21:43.280 --> 21:43.880]  And they do.
[21:44.040 --> 21:46.700]  They make statements about, you know, unpopular causes all the time.
[21:46.700 --> 21:48.160]  So I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
[21:49.800 --> 21:52.260]  What if Coca-Cola came out with a new flavor called Bloody?
[21:52.420 --> 21:52.960]  I don't know.
[21:53.140 --> 21:54.520]  I guess they would have a case.
[21:54.700 --> 21:55.080]  They would be able to.
[21:55.180 --> 21:56.280]  But, you know, he did have it first.
[21:56.380 --> 21:56.740]  It's exposed fast, though.
[21:56.800 --> 21:57.440]  It's like Nissan.
[21:57.900 --> 21:58.860]  Yeah, he did have it first.
[21:59.000 --> 22:00.520]  He did have Bloody Coca-Cola first.
[22:00.740 --> 22:03.420]  I don't even want to talk about Coca-Cola, let alone Bloody Coca-Cola.
[22:03.420 --> 22:06.920]  Let's move on to another unpopular cause, namely al-Qaeda.
[22:07.520 --> 22:07.900]  U.S.
[22:08.280 --> 22:12.540]  intelligence agents searching for al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden have...
[22:12.540 --> 22:19.320]  Don't you think it's amazing how they have yet to even determine if the guy is still alive after all this time?
[22:20.280 --> 22:24.100]  They keep saying he's on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan someplace, you know.
[22:24.160 --> 22:26.100]  It's only a couple hundred miles, but he's there somewhere.
[22:26.260 --> 22:29.280]  I mean, it's been almost a year now and nothing.
[22:29.580 --> 22:32.540]  Well, if he's dead, they'll have fewer excuses to bomb innocent people.
[22:32.740 --> 22:33.320]  Yeah, that's true.
[22:33.420 --> 22:34.180]  That's certainly true.
[22:34.320 --> 22:35.540]  I'm sure they'll come up with new excuses.
[22:35.960 --> 22:40.460]  You know, Osama bin Laden Jr. Even worse than The Father, you know, the sequel.
[22:40.920 --> 22:42.120]  Mini Osama bin Laden.
[22:42.200 --> 22:43.160]  Oh, boy, don't even start.
[22:44.640 --> 22:45.960]  All right, so anyway, U.S.
[22:46.260 --> 22:53.040]  intelligence agents searching for al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden have followed the trail of the world's most wanted man into cyberspace.
[22:53.040 --> 22:54.720]  That's according to CNN.
[22:55.860 --> 23:03.200]  Counter-terrorism experts are monitoring a number of websites and computer servers they believe might contain recent messages from bin Laden.
[23:03.860 --> 23:05.340]  How do you think they got this information?
[23:06.040 --> 23:06.100]  Hmm.
[23:06.460 --> 23:15.780]  Al-Qaeda is said to be computer savvy, and some investigators believe they have found markers or code words that indicate bin Laden is trying to signal supporters that he is alive.
[23:16.400 --> 23:17.820]  Why would he need to do that?
[23:17.940 --> 23:20.860]  Why would he need to signal people through hidden messages on the internet that he's alive?
[23:21.040 --> 23:26.520]  Why couldn't he just tell somebody, I'm alive, pass it on, you know, and people within that particular network would know?
[23:26.980 --> 23:27.580]  I don't know.
[23:27.680 --> 23:28.340]  Maybe I'm just naive.
[23:28.340 --> 23:32.980]  Um, it's either bin Laden or an elaborate cyber-deception campaign.
[23:33.360 --> 23:35.000]  Cyber-deception campaign.
[23:35.260 --> 23:36.200]  What does that even mean?
[23:36.400 --> 23:38.540]  I don't know, but that's according to an intelligence official.
[23:38.860 --> 23:39.440]  Sounds cool.
[23:39.640 --> 23:49.380]  Um, CNN reported earlier this year that al-Qaeda has used at least one website to post information and keeps changing the site's address to stay ahead of investigators.
[23:50.440 --> 23:51.300]  Here's my thing.
[23:51.440 --> 24:00.280]  If they can somehow tell people what the name of the site is, ahead of investigators, could they maybe not also pass messages along in that same method?
[24:00.620 --> 24:02.040]  You know, why they need the website?
[24:03.320 --> 24:16.080]  Authorities also are investigating information from detainees that suggest al-Qaeda members and possibly even bin Laden are hiding messages inside photographic files on pornographic websites.
[24:17.180 --> 24:21.040]  Why would they need to use pornography to do this?
[24:21.140 --> 24:25.020]  Unless we just wanted to, uh, you know, have something else to, like, dislike them for.
[24:25.020 --> 24:26.840]  Couldn't they be doing it on, like, CNN?
[24:27.020 --> 24:28.000]  They could be doing it on CNN.
[24:28.160 --> 24:30.520]  They could be doing it on, you know, people's family albums.
[24:30.720 --> 24:30.960]  Anything.
[24:31.240 --> 24:38.660]  I have to say that that pornography bit led me to think that this is a total crock from John Ashcroft's warped mind.
[24:39.560 --> 24:40.180]  Yeah, yeah.
[24:40.280 --> 24:44.380]  To get people to dislike pornography or to just squash pornography.
[24:44.380 --> 25:07.660]  If you are a fundamentalist Muslim, dedicated to destroying the United States because it is a decadent, evil, sex-crazed society, why in God's name, excuse me, why in Allah's name, are you going to hide your messages with pictures of naked women who you shouldn't be looking at anyway?
[25:08.040 --> 25:09.840]  Well, they didn't say anything about naked women.
[25:10.020 --> 25:10.900]  Okay, it's pornography.
[25:10.900 --> 25:11.940]  Photography, what is it, donkeys?
[25:12.760 --> 25:14.640]  There's all kinds of possibilities.
[25:14.780 --> 25:15.420]  But here's the thing.
[25:15.520 --> 25:17.120]  I mean, they're just basically speculating here.
[25:17.280 --> 25:19.740]  They're saying, you know, detainees.
[25:20.000 --> 25:22.960]  I mean, first of all, if you torture people, they're going to admit to anything.
[25:23.360 --> 25:30.840]  You're going to have these poor people in Cuba admitting to, you know, killing Castro when, you know, he hasn't even been killed by us yet.
[25:31.420 --> 25:32.580]  Have you seen him lately?
[25:33.060 --> 25:33.700]  No, I haven't.
[25:33.700 --> 25:35.980]  Somewhere on the Pakistani-Afghanistan border?
[25:35.980 --> 25:36.800]  I don't know.
[25:37.840 --> 25:42.980]  Bin Laden and al-Qaeda are blamed for planning and executing the September 11th attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
[25:43.140 --> 25:43.740]  You don't say.
[25:44.340 --> 25:47.800]  Yeah, well, that's background for the people who have been in a coma for the last few months.
[25:48.060 --> 25:56.840]  The attacks prompted the U.S.-led military campaign in Afghanistan, which toppled the ruling Taliban that had sheltered al-Qaeda and bin Laden, but somehow didn't solve anything.
[25:58.620 --> 26:04.460]  CNN has learned that a recently completed counterterrorism analysis concluded that no one knows whether bin Laden is still alive.
[26:05.440 --> 26:06.060]  No one.
[26:06.340 --> 26:07.220]  I think he's still alive.
[26:07.220 --> 26:08.600]  Not even bin Laden knows if he's alive.
[26:09.960 --> 26:11.680]  Captured al-Qaeda fighters told U.S.
[26:11.780 --> 26:16.340]  interrogators that bin Laden was wounded in the left hand in the attack on his base at Tora Bora.
[26:16.620 --> 26:21.580]  In a videotape released in December, bin Laden never moved his left arm and his hand was never shown.
[26:22.580 --> 26:28.620]  We should, you know, do things like this when Bush gives talks and say, look, you don't see his left knee.
[26:28.840 --> 26:30.120]  You know, it's not there anymore.
[26:30.120 --> 26:33.720]  They amputated his foot, you know, there's no, there's no proof, you know, you don't see it on the video.
[26:34.220 --> 26:34.800]  I don't know.
[26:34.920 --> 26:42.160]  I think they, they need to show the unedited videos and, uh, you know, as much information as possible so people can actually see what's really going on.
[26:42.800 --> 26:43.280]  U.S.
[26:43.500 --> 26:48.840]  Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld confirmed that bin Laden has not been heard from since, hasn't answered any of the phone calls.
[26:49.720 --> 26:52.900]  Uh, bin Laden has good reason not to make further public appearances.
[26:53.660 --> 26:58.320]  Uh, one might be he is not physically able because he is injured in some way, Rumsfeld said.
[26:58.320 --> 27:02.360]  Another might be because he is afraid if he does, he will get caught.
[27:03.420 --> 27:04.280]  Gee, you think?
[27:04.580 --> 27:13.340]  You know, the brilliant thing about these claims of, of hiding, uh, hiding messages in image files is that they're impossible to disprove.
[27:13.620 --> 27:13.900]  Mm-hmm.
[27:14.260 --> 27:14.560]  I know.
[27:14.560 --> 27:14.800]  That's true.
[27:14.800 --> 27:17.540]  Because if they're effectively hidden, then no one can find them.
[27:17.700 --> 27:18.020]  That's right.
[27:18.160 --> 27:18.500]  That's right.
[27:18.980 --> 27:19.380]  So...
[27:19.380 --> 27:20.740]  It's called, uh, steganography, right?
[27:20.740 --> 27:20.940]  Yes.
[27:20.940 --> 27:27.500]  And we, we had a, a good talk on that at the conference, which I missed because I was busy running around dealing with other things, but, uh, it will be on our website.
[27:27.500 --> 27:30.920]  If you missed it, you will be able to hear it soon and, and see it soon after that.
[27:31.380 --> 27:36.800]  Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's one of the, one of the fastest growing topics in the hacker world.
[27:37.000 --> 27:42.060]  And yeah, sure, it's possible, but, uh, it's also possible to convey messages in any number of ways.
[27:42.620 --> 27:47.740]  Couldn't it also be possible to use the, uh, steganography technology on television?
[27:48.680 --> 27:50.420]  We'd have to have a television station, wouldn't you?
[27:50.940 --> 27:51.560]  Well, I mean...
[27:51.560 --> 27:55.140]  A means of, uh, and, you know, control has pretty much been, been locked away from people.
[27:55.400 --> 27:58.680]  Apparently, you know, they have this network of people that are everywhere.
[27:58.960 --> 27:59.160]  Mm-hmm.
[27:59.320 --> 28:02.640]  So you would think that they might have somebody in a, in a television network.
[28:02.820 --> 28:05.700]  Do you think there are Al-Qaeda operatives within our own government?
[28:06.100 --> 28:08.800]  There could be Al-Qaeda operatives anywhere.
[28:09.020 --> 28:18.940]  So if we start suspecting high-ranking members of the Bush administration of being disloyal to this country, I don't know, it could lead to all kinds of, uh, ugliness on all levels, not just, uh, on our level.
[28:20.020 --> 28:27.980]  Uh, anyway, the intelligence reports suggest that if Bin Laden is still alive, he might be waiting to emerge when the next attack occurs.
[28:28.520 --> 28:30.320]  You see the panic they instill in people?
[28:30.580 --> 28:32.540]  When the next attack, the next attack is coming.
[28:32.900 --> 28:36.020]  Bin Laden's behind it, and the next attack is going to happen, and that's when he's going to emerge.
[28:36.080 --> 28:37.080]  It's like the Antichrist.
[28:37.080 --> 28:40.720]  Just, you know, it's, um, it's really something.
[28:40.860 --> 28:51.920]  Last week, the editor of, uh, Al-Quds al-Arabi, a London-based Arabic language magazine, said associates of Bin Laden told him the Al-Qaeda leader was still alive and was recovering from a shrapnel wound to his shoulder.
[28:52.480 --> 28:54.780]  Uh, the editor said he was not given any other details.
[28:54.940 --> 28:56.540]  They never indicated where he was.
[28:57.000 --> 29:03.920]  Uh, some intelligence officials believe Bin Laden could be hiding in the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan, a region encompassing several hundred square miles.
[29:04.300 --> 29:07.760]  Uh, if so, he likely is constantly on the move, they think.
[29:08.040 --> 29:15.280]  You know, and, and, such a small area, you'd think that somebody would see him and, uh, maybe, like, you know, mention it, or one of our people would see him.
[29:16.140 --> 29:32.560]  Uh, in an audio tape broadcast on the Al Jazeera television network last month, Al-Qaeda spokesman, uh, Saluman Abu Ghath said that Bin Laden, his top lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahi, said 98% of the leadership of Al-Qaeda are safe and planning new attacks against the United States.
[29:33.060 --> 29:36.120]  Taliban leader Mullah Omar was also alive, he said.
[29:36.840 --> 29:46.220]  Um, basically, these people who are going to rally behind him are going to rally behind him dead or alive, said Shibli Talhami, a Middle Eastern studies professor at the University of Maryland.
[29:46.540 --> 29:49.740]  You're going to have a core that, no matter what happens to him, are going to be his core supporters.
[29:51.240 --> 29:53.660]  So, uh, I don't know.
[29:54.060 --> 29:58.960]  The future is unwritten and it's, uh, looking kind of interesting as far as this kind of thing goes.
[29:59.080 --> 30:07.280]  I don't know where it's going to play out, but, uh, we're certainly going to see more on the domestic front as far as clampdowns and, and questioning and all that kind of a thing.
[30:08.220 --> 30:09.900]  Uh, we didn't talk about this last week.
[30:09.980 --> 30:17.880]  We should have, because it's certainly something that's going to be affecting a lot of, uh, people, and that is Operation Tips.
[30:18.080 --> 30:18.660]  You heard about this?
[30:18.880 --> 30:19.040]  Yes.
[30:19.340 --> 30:20.160]  What do you know about it?
[30:20.540 --> 30:22.740]  Tips is, is, is a bad, it's a bad thing.
[30:22.840 --> 30:23.300]  It's a bad thing.
[30:23.300 --> 30:29.620]  They're going to recruit, uh, to start with, uh, a million people to look for suspicious activity.
[30:29.960 --> 30:32.840]  They're going to get, like, truckers and cable repairmen and...
[30:32.840 --> 30:33.220]  Mailmen.
[30:33.480 --> 30:34.780]  Mail, no, not mailmen.
[30:34.920 --> 30:35.880]  I thought they were getting mailmen.
[30:35.900 --> 30:38.100]  No, the postal service said, we don't want any part of this.
[30:38.280 --> 30:38.740]  Oh, okay.
[30:39.080 --> 30:39.740]  I must have missed it.
[30:39.740 --> 30:40.360]  When did they say that?
[30:40.420 --> 30:45.060]  Because the story I'm looking at here says that, uh, the postal people are volunteering for this.
[30:45.320 --> 30:46.540]  Maybe they changed their mind.
[30:46.640 --> 30:46.960]  I don't know.
[30:47.000 --> 30:48.320]  Maybe it's up to individual people.
[30:48.320 --> 30:49.100]  You know?
[30:50.040 --> 30:51.100]  This is, uh...
[30:51.100 --> 30:51.280]  Yeah.
[30:51.420 --> 31:06.440]  Related to this, I would just, uh, like to say that everybody should pick up a copy of the current Village Voice, which talks about the government actually looking at your, uh, grocery purchases through your, uh, discount cards that they've had for a number of years,
[31:06.600 --> 31:07.460]  Pathmark, Food Emporium.
[31:07.460 --> 31:08.940]  I knew that was going to lead to no good.
[31:09.080 --> 31:09.580]  I knew it.
[31:09.620 --> 31:10.340]  That's terrorism.
[31:10.380 --> 31:11.900]  I never, ever sign up for this.
[31:11.900 --> 31:18.980]  And they look to see if you're, you're buying things like bleach and, uh, little baggies to be a drug dealer or, or whatever.
[31:19.160 --> 31:20.000]  Suspicious things.
[31:20.200 --> 31:31.160]  And apparently, and this is the fun part of that article, apparently the thing that most of the terrorists that were on those flights had in common was they ordered pizza and paid for it with a credit card.
[31:32.740 --> 31:34.800]  That describes most college students.
[31:34.800 --> 31:35.100]  I did that last week.
[31:35.480 --> 31:35.840]  Yeah.
[31:36.040 --> 31:37.340]  Well, you're going to be profiled.
[31:37.640 --> 31:38.740]  You did that last night.
[31:38.880 --> 31:40.060]  Yeah, as I should be.
[31:40.440 --> 31:42.640]  Because I might not even know it.
[31:42.780 --> 31:43.020]  You know?
[31:43.100 --> 31:45.100]  I might not even know that I'm the threat I am.
[31:45.100 --> 31:48.660]  They have a hidden message within you that's going to control you and make you do a terrorist act.
[31:48.820 --> 31:49.920]  Buying credit cards with a pizza.
[31:50.280 --> 31:51.700]  I mean, buying pizza with a credit card.
[31:51.920 --> 31:52.440]  Never mind.
[31:52.660 --> 31:54.220]  The other way around would be much more interesting.
[31:54.380 --> 31:54.780]  I've done that.
[31:55.280 --> 31:58.320]  Operation T- Well, Jim, you remember that show Babylon 5 we used to watch?
[31:58.380 --> 31:59.200]  Remember the Night Watch?
[31:59.400 --> 31:59.780]  Oh, yes.
[32:00.200 --> 32:01.360]  This is exactly the same thing.
[32:01.440 --> 32:09.100]  I'm convinced that George Bush is, is watching that program and taking notes and saying, my God, this is, this is how things are going to come down.
[32:09.100 --> 32:09.500]  What is J.
[32:09.580 --> 32:11.240]  Michael Straczynski doing these days?
[32:11.400 --> 32:13.060]  Has he got a new gig in the government?
[32:13.060 --> 32:18.660]  Uh, well, apart from doing the Jeremiah series, I think he's just hiding, trying to stay out of the, uh...
[32:18.660 --> 32:23.320]  I don't, I don't know from television programs, but, but in real life, they used to do this in East Germany.
[32:23.680 --> 32:24.380]  Oh, Stasi!
[32:24.540 --> 32:25.860]  They used to do this in the United States.
[32:26.060 --> 32:27.000]  Well, they do it in the Philippines.
[32:27.920 --> 32:32.180]  Russia, the, uh, the commissal, the communist youth used to inform on their parents.
[32:32.440 --> 32:32.620]  Mm-hmm.
[32:32.900 --> 32:34.400]  And before that, the Nazis.
[32:34.880 --> 32:35.000]  Yeah.
[32:35.100 --> 32:36.820]  And, uh, it goes back a long time.
[32:36.960 --> 32:39.920]  Well, in this country, they left a little calling card in the Pledge of Allegiance under God, remember?
[32:39.920 --> 32:41.360]  That was part of the McCarthy era.
[32:42.040 --> 32:43.100]  People don't remember this.
[32:43.320 --> 32:45.260]  It wasn't really part of the McCarthy era.
[32:45.460 --> 32:46.280]  It was the more moderates.
[32:46.400 --> 32:47.780]  But, yeah, I understand what you're getting at.
[32:48.500 --> 32:49.420]  It was all related.
[32:51.160 --> 32:52.020]  Anyway, Operation Tips.
[32:52.060 --> 32:52.540]  How do we join?
[32:52.740 --> 32:53.700]  How do we, I mean...
[32:53.700 --> 32:54.380]  There's a website.
[32:54.520 --> 32:54.900]  Can we join?
[32:55.020 --> 32:55.420]  What's the website?
[32:55.560 --> 32:56.560]  I don't, I didn't see a website.
[32:56.580 --> 32:57.220]  There's a website.
[32:57.500 --> 32:58.400]  Anybody can join?
[32:59.020 --> 32:59.260]  Anybody?
[33:00.720 --> 33:06.040]  Well, it's not to be confused with 1-800-577-TIPS, which is if you witness a violent crime.
[33:06.200 --> 33:07.180]  All right, let me, let me...
[33:07.180 --> 33:07.880]  Please keep those clear.
[33:08.020 --> 33:09.260]  Let me go into a little bit of detail here.
[33:09.340 --> 33:11.200]  Maybe there'll be a clue that sneaks out.
[33:11.320 --> 33:13.400]  And again, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[33:13.500 --> 33:15.020]  If anyone knows the website, please call.
[33:15.020 --> 33:15.600]  Yeah, please do.
[33:15.660 --> 33:19.620]  Or if anyone is already volunteering for Operation Tips, please, we want to be part of this too.
[33:19.780 --> 33:21.840]  Because there's lots of weird things I see every day.
[33:22.180 --> 33:25.540]  Things like, you know, barricades going up in front of buildings everywhere.
[33:25.540 --> 33:29.360]  You know, things like people in fatigues walking around with guns.
[33:29.360 --> 33:32.480]  People with, you know, sand trucks blocking public streets.
[33:32.800 --> 33:35.080]  I'm seeing all kinds of weirdness, you know?
[33:35.200 --> 33:42.920]  There's also a Tips Tips website where you can report suspicious things that tips operatives do.
[33:43.580 --> 33:44.120]  L.
[33:44.320 --> 33:48.580]  Rios Jr. is just the kind of guy Uncle Sam wanted on the front lines of Operation Tips.
[33:48.580 --> 34:00.960]  The Justice Department's plan to encourage meter readers, truck drivers, cable guys, and other workers whose jobs routinely take them through the nation's neighborhoods to report signs of terrorism to a national hotline.
[34:01.120 --> 34:06.040]  A tough-talking, sharp-eyed mail carrier who has worked the streets of Brooklyn for 32 years.
[34:06.380 --> 34:10.720]  Mr. Rios said he sees more than his share of suspicious activity in the course of his job.
[34:11.280 --> 34:11.960]  Like what?
[34:12.760 --> 34:18.340]  That's none of your business, what I see, Mr. Rios said as he waited for an elevator in an office building in downtown Brooklyn.
[34:18.980 --> 34:19.900]  We live in America.
[34:19.960 --> 34:21.000]  We don't live in Russia.
[34:23.380 --> 34:27.340]  If we live in Russia, I'll tell you why I see, but I live in America, so I'm not going to tell you, no.
[34:29.300 --> 34:30.540]  It's kind of the right attitude.
[34:32.860 --> 34:39.220]  Richard Rucerito, on the other hand, is happy to help stop the spread of terror, but some people might have a problem with the kind of help he has been providing.
[34:39.440 --> 34:52.840]  Mr. Rucerito, a Federal Express driver in Brooklyn who worked until recently in the increasingly Middle Eastern neighborhood of Bay Ridge, said that after September 11th, he routinely passed on information about what he saw in Arab American customers' apartments.
[34:53.340 --> 35:02.140]  Whenever I would go to a place where there was a lot of them, he said, I would tell the landlord, hey, you got nine people living up there or whatever, and they would call the FBI and get them checked out.
[35:02.320 --> 35:04.300]  Oh, that's really racialist.
[35:04.500 --> 35:06.600]  That's being a good citizen.
[35:07.080 --> 35:07.260]  Right.
[35:07.260 --> 35:17.500]  Early last week, the program's website indicated that Operation TIPS, which stands for Terrorism Information and Prevention System, would begin in selected American cities next month.
[35:17.500 --> 35:29.460]  It would be fundamentally different from TIPS systems already set up in many cities, since it would take advantage of the access these workers have to people's lives rather than simply solicit TIPS from anyone with something to support.
[35:30.380 --> 35:36.400]  So, uh, I guess you have to fulfill some kind of qualification in order to actually be believed.
[35:37.180 --> 35:37.640]  Fine.
[35:37.900 --> 35:38.280]  Fine.
[35:38.280 --> 35:41.840]  We can, uh, we'll figure out a way to participate somehow.
[35:43.660 --> 35:48.780]  But according to Tom Ridge, the last thing we want is Americans spying on Americans.
[35:49.280 --> 35:51.420]  That's the domestic security advisor saying that.
[35:52.200 --> 35:55.260]  But the line between vigilance and invasion of privacy is a blurry one.
[35:55.340 --> 36:04.560]  The hundreds of thousands of East Germans who snitched on their neighbors in the Stasi, the secret police agency that kept files on more than 4 million people, must have felt that they were doing their patriotic duty.
[36:06.740 --> 36:10.540]  By midweek, the language on the website had been made more vague.
[36:10.820 --> 36:16.080]  Uh, mention of specific occupations was taken out, and the timing for the program's launch pushed back.
[36:16.720 --> 36:26.340]  Uh, then on Friday, a House special committee on Homeland Security, headed by the Republican Majority Leader Dick Armey of Texas, approved legislation that would kill Operation TIPS.
[36:27.260 --> 36:30.220]  So, um, we don't know where it stands right now.
[36:30.500 --> 36:31.000]  I'd like to know more.
[36:31.040 --> 36:35.220]  If somebody out there has, uh, more information, please, uh, let us know.
[36:36.720 --> 36:38.640]  Uh, and what else do we have to tell people?
[36:38.940 --> 36:42.480]  Um, well, there's the, uh, Homeland Security Advisory System.
[36:42.660 --> 36:54.500]  Do you know that fewer than one in four Americans in the latest, uh, Fox News Opinion Dynamics National Survey answered correctly when asked to name the country's current alert level?
[36:55.780 --> 37:00.700]  Since the advisory program began in March, the country has been on elevated alert represented by the color?
[37:01.540 --> 37:02.040]  Yellow.
[37:02.260 --> 37:02.840]  Yellow, correct.
[37:03.160 --> 37:09.720]  In addition to yellow, answers such as elevated and the middle level were also accepted as correct based on the Homeland Security chart.
[37:10.400 --> 37:16.360]  78% of respondents gave an incorrect answer or said they were unsure of the alert level.
[37:16.500 --> 37:17.660]  Well, it hasn't changed.
[37:17.780 --> 37:18.400]  It hasn't changed.
[37:18.460 --> 37:19.880]  How hard could it possibly be?
[37:20.260 --> 37:21.300]  For God's sake.
[37:21.300 --> 37:22.080]  But who cares?
[37:22.360 --> 37:23.500]  It's just, it's just yellow.
[37:23.880 --> 37:25.980]  Well, you know, I'd like to know what color it is today.
[37:26.260 --> 37:27.680]  Didn't it change for the city or something?
[37:28.040 --> 37:29.620]  You can't change it for a city.
[37:29.960 --> 37:30.980]  But technically, he's right.
[37:31.160 --> 37:31.560]  Homeland.
[37:31.800 --> 37:32.440]  Is it back to normal now?
[37:32.580 --> 37:32.740]  No.
[37:33.180 --> 37:33.820]  What is it?
[37:34.160 --> 37:35.580]  Uh, it's one above that orange.
[37:35.920 --> 37:36.360]  Oh, okay.
[37:36.620 --> 37:37.620]  Who determines this?
[37:37.880 --> 37:43.520]  Uh, the governor made a big to-do, uh, roundabout H2K2 time.
[37:43.820 --> 37:44.440]  Is there a...
[37:44.440 --> 37:45.660]  Is it because of H2K2?
[37:45.840 --> 37:46.540]  I don't think so.
[37:46.700 --> 37:49.200]  Is there some other city I can visit where it's green or blue?
[37:49.200 --> 37:51.520]  Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe Berkeley is green.
[37:51.680 --> 37:52.200]  That'd be nice.
[37:52.520 --> 37:53.360]  I'd like to go there.
[37:53.740 --> 37:54.960]  That's a double entendre.
[37:55.080 --> 37:55.240]  Yeah.
[37:55.560 --> 37:56.640]  Maybe Berkeley is green.
[37:56.920 --> 38:00.140]  Um, well, that's something.
[38:00.820 --> 38:08.280]  All right, and finally, uh, of course, we have the bankruptcy of WorldCom, which, uh, is affecting people in all kinds of bizarre ways.
[38:08.500 --> 38:13.700]  Uh, you know, when you have these companies merging, becoming bigger and bigger, and then they go out of business, boy, what kind of an effect is that going to have?
[38:13.700 --> 38:26.940]  If MCI is saying, don't worry, it's not going to affect us somehow, but it's kind of hard to, you know, take that seriously, um, when you don't know what their future is going to be, when, uh, WorldCom basically won't be paying their creditors.
[38:27.020 --> 38:28.080]  That's what bankruptcy is.
[38:29.720 --> 38:30.520]  Um, Singular.
[38:30.880 --> 38:36.080]  The company Singular, which, if somebody knows if they're supposed to be GSM, please let me know, because people...
[38:36.080 --> 38:36.860]  I think they're both.
[38:36.860 --> 38:43.260]  People say they're GSM, they're in the city, supposedly, but, um, I don't see them on my GSM phone.
[38:43.520 --> 38:48.700]  The GSM phone is supposed to find all GSM companies, and so far, I only have one company, and that's VoiceStream.
[38:48.880 --> 38:57.900]  So, uh, I know AT&T is supposed to be, uh, GSM fairly soon, and when that day comes, it might actually be sort of like it is in Europe, when you turn on your phone, you can choose companies.
[38:58.700 --> 38:59.100]  Maybe.
[38:59.280 --> 38:59.700]  We'll see.
[38:59.880 --> 39:11.300]  But anyway, Singular is currently calling all of WorldCom Wireless' customers and telling them WorldCom is going out of business immediately, and that all of WorldCom's customers will be cut off tomorrow unless they switch to Singular Service.
[39:11.520 --> 39:12.100]  Oh, jeez.
[39:12.620 --> 39:15.320]  The phone companies just, you know, they bring it on themselves.
[39:15.580 --> 39:15.760]  That's cutthroat.
[39:16.420 --> 39:20.340]  WorldCom Wireless, however, is continuing to service all its customers and is not out of business.
[39:20.480 --> 39:28.040]  I currently, unfortunately, work for WorldCom Wireless' customer service, and about a quarter of my calls this week have been people whose Singular has called.
[39:28.340 --> 39:34.840]  That's, um, sign Jason, and thanks, uh, for that information on Singular Sales techniques.
[39:35.840 --> 39:36.240]  Unbelievable.
[39:37.940 --> 39:39.960]  And, uh, here's something interesting.
[39:40.060 --> 39:41.540]  Actually, a couple of interesting little things here.
[39:41.560 --> 39:45.660]  Verizon, it appears, has figured out how to get rid of, of, uh, competing yellow pages.
[39:45.800 --> 39:49.900]  In Queens, they bind the yellow pages with the white pages as one volume.
[39:50.040 --> 39:51.280]  It weighs seven pounds.
[39:52.020 --> 39:54.700]  So what do you think will happen to any competing yellow pages that get delivered?
[39:54.900 --> 39:58.360]  Since you can't get rid of Verizon, the competitors are the ones likely to get dumped.
[39:58.980 --> 40:04.080]  I remember, back in the day, it used to always be the yellow pages in back of the white pages.
[40:04.140 --> 40:04.940]  It used to be one book.
[40:05.340 --> 40:05.400]  You know?
[40:05.500 --> 40:11.920]  And then they started branching out and having different yellow pages for every county, and then the business to business, and the, you know...
[40:11.920 --> 40:15.440]  Let me point out that you live in the boondocks where they'd be small anyway.
[40:15.600 --> 40:17.540]  No, I'm talking about when I lived in the city as a little kid.
[40:18.580 --> 40:18.900]  Oh,
[40:29.580 --> 40:29.600]  okay.
[40:29.600 --> 40:29.860]  Yeah.
[40:30.940 --> 40:32.440]  Big, but not gigantic.
[40:32.820 --> 40:33.020]  Mm-hmm.
[40:33.680 --> 40:35.840]  I'm sure someone out there collects old phone books.
[40:36.100 --> 40:36.300]  Yes.
[40:36.300 --> 40:37.320]  So we can settle this.
[40:38.240 --> 40:39.220]  It's a good thing to collect.
[40:39.360 --> 40:40.860]  You know, it's a great way to stalk people, too.
[40:41.160 --> 40:41.500]  Right.
[40:41.500 --> 40:41.920]  Because, you know...
[40:41.920 --> 40:43.000]  If they go unlisted, the number is still listed.
[40:43.000 --> 40:44.640]  If they go unlisted, they don't change the number.
[40:44.820 --> 40:48.460]  Then, you know, before they got famous, then, uh, they have their number listed.
[40:48.500 --> 40:53.420]  If you have a three-year-old Manhattan phone book, Mayor Mike Bloomberg's home number is still in there.
[40:53.500 --> 40:54.000]  You're kidding.
[40:54.200 --> 40:54.340]  No.
[40:54.420 --> 40:55.180]  He hasn't changed it?
[40:55.320 --> 40:55.500]  No.
[40:55.500 --> 40:55.520]  No.
[40:55.940 --> 40:57.300]  Boy, you'd think he would have by now.
[40:58.360 --> 41:03.760]  Anyway, um, this person has been reading Peter Marshall's new book, Backstage with the Original Hollywood Square.
[41:04.200 --> 41:05.480]  Remember the Original Hollywood Squares?
[41:06.140 --> 41:11.620]  And since I have seen at least two threads here in the last few months concerning how Wally Cox died...
[41:11.620 --> 41:12.460]  Remember Wally Cox?
[41:12.580 --> 41:12.760]  Yes.
[41:13.140 --> 41:15.720]  I figured that some people here might find the following interesting.
[41:15.940 --> 41:17.180]  The saddest thing was...
[41:17.180 --> 41:17.580]  This is a quote.
[41:17.680 --> 41:25.420]  The saddest thing was, after spending years being psychoanalyzed, Wally learned he had a chemical imbalance that had been the root of his psychological problems.
[41:26.020 --> 41:29.100]  Wally began drug therapy, and I believe this is what ultimately killed him.
[41:29.240 --> 41:33.360]  You see, he also suffered from arteriosclerosis, and Wally did enjoy a drink now and then.
[41:33.580 --> 41:37.620]  His death was diagnosed as a heart attack brought on by a lethal mix of prescription pills and liquor.
[41:37.880 --> 41:43.020]  There was a rumor going around that Wally had committed suicide, but I have a very good reason for not buying into that theory.
[41:43.680 --> 41:54.420]  Wally had a real vendetta against the telephone company, and had finally convinced our producer, Bill Armstrong, to allow him to rewire the telephones in Bill's home so that all of his long-distance calls would be free.
[41:54.820 --> 41:57.960]  Wally bragged that he hadn't paid for a long-distance call in years.
[41:58.300 --> 42:00.340]  He died before he ever finished the job.
[42:00.500 --> 42:01.320]  Now, I know Wally.
[42:01.500 --> 42:01.960]  I knew Wally.
[42:02.320 --> 42:06.960]  And when he had a mission, there's no way he'd let anything get in his way until the mission was accomplished.
[42:07.520 --> 42:12.300]  Wally would never have committed suicide until he'd finished cheating the phone company out of every possible penny.
[42:12.780 --> 42:14.460]  That's how I know his death was an accident.
[42:14.800 --> 42:18.600]  Somehow, this knowledge gives me comfort because, uh, even though I miss him to this day.
[42:18.600 --> 42:25.220]  Anyway, sounds like a good theory to me, and it's definitely the most amusing explanation I've ever heard about why somebody could not have committed suicide.
[42:25.460 --> 42:28.180]  Signed, Mary, and, uh, thanks very much for sharing that with us.
[42:28.320 --> 42:31.240]  Wally Cox, patron saint of phone freaks.
[42:31.520 --> 42:31.880]  Yeah.
[42:32.360 --> 42:33.980]  I could see his picture being blazing.
[42:33.980 --> 42:34.940]  I think that's great.
[42:35.180 --> 42:36.140]  We, we have to do that.
[42:36.200 --> 42:36.700]  A t-shirt.
[42:36.960 --> 42:37.180]  Yeah.
[42:38.040 --> 42:38.280]  All right.
[42:38.280 --> 42:41.840]  Anybody has a picture of Wally Cox from back in the 70s, please, uh, send it on.
[42:42.040 --> 42:42.380]  Or 60s.
[42:42.520 --> 42:43.260]  Or 60s, yeah.
[42:44.200 --> 42:45.460]  212-209-2900.
[42:45.600 --> 42:47.120]  Let's take some listener phone calls.
[42:47.120 --> 42:48.320]  Where should we go first?
[42:48.380 --> 42:49.760]  Let's go over here.
[42:50.060 --> 42:50.380]  Good evening.
[42:50.540 --> 42:51.020]  You're on the air.
[42:52.640 --> 42:53.220]  Speak up.
[42:53.840 --> 42:54.000]  Hello?
[42:54.220 --> 42:54.660]  Yes, go ahead.
[42:55.260 --> 42:55.740]  Hey, sorry.
[42:56.080 --> 42:58.480]  Uh, so, Singular is on GSM.
[42:58.660 --> 42:59.840]  I'm actually in L.A.
[43:00.080 --> 43:01.740]  talking to you on a GSM.
[43:01.960 --> 43:03.360]  Okay, let me ask you a question, then.
[43:03.480 --> 43:05.440]  Uh, Singular is not the same as PacBell, right?
[43:05.940 --> 43:08.100]  It was PacBell, and then it switched to Singular.
[43:08.680 --> 43:12.460]  Okay, so, are there two companies out there now, PacBell and Singular, or just one?
[43:12.780 --> 43:15.200]  Okay, when I first bought my phone, it was PacBell.
[43:15.200 --> 43:20.120]  And then PacBell took over all, or sorry, Singular took over all the PacBell sites.
[43:20.520 --> 43:22.340]  So it's only one company, just Singular.
[43:22.500 --> 43:24.080]  Okay, so there's no competition there.
[43:24.400 --> 43:24.800]  No.
[43:25.160 --> 43:25.480]  All right.
[43:25.660 --> 43:27.980]  Uh, Singular is here, but I don't think they're GSM.
[43:28.180 --> 43:29.340]  I think they're TDMA here.
[43:29.560 --> 43:31.300]  Yeah, I don't see them on my phone.
[43:31.300 --> 43:37.580]  Um, yeah, because I bought a World phone that's GSM, I guess, only, like the Motorola V60.
[43:37.820 --> 43:38.000]  Yeah.
[43:38.500 --> 43:45.440]  And I'm using Singular, so, and I've always used just GSM, because I have a GSM car phone as well.
[43:45.480 --> 43:47.700]  Have you tried, uh, scanning for networks?
[43:48.560 --> 43:49.580]  Um, no.
[43:49.920 --> 43:51.320]  Okay, you should try that.
[43:51.320 --> 43:52.200]  They lock my phone, though.
[43:52.600 --> 43:53.480]  They lock your phone?
[43:53.540 --> 43:56.240]  I think they lock, or lock the phone to their network, you know what I mean?
[43:56.420 --> 43:56.600]  Uh.
[43:56.600 --> 43:58.240]  So when you do a search, it just shows Singular.
[43:58.740 --> 43:59.500]  What's the point?
[43:59.580 --> 44:01.860]  What's the point of GSM if they, if they lock out competition?
[44:02.060 --> 44:02.660]  I don't understand that.
[44:02.840 --> 44:09.780]  And I was wondering why they charge, you know, because they charge you a huge amount for these World phones, like Singular likes to talk up how cool their World phones is.
[44:09.900 --> 44:10.060]  Yeah.
[44:10.160 --> 44:13.320]  Well, it is cool when you travel the world, because you see all different companies there.
[44:13.460 --> 44:14.920]  You know, in Germany, you have like six companies.
[44:14.920 --> 44:17.480]  They charge you extra for, for roaming the world, though.
[44:17.720 --> 44:19.120]  Like, they'll charge you extra for that.
[44:19.340 --> 44:19.580]  Mm-hmm.
[44:20.120 --> 44:21.240]  So that doesn't make any sense.
[44:21.240 --> 44:25.940]  Yeah, it goes against, I mean, GSM would be so much more successful in this, in this country if it was used properly.
[44:26.200 --> 44:30.480]  You know, if, if there were many different companies you could choose from, you could use the same phone and, and switch companies.
[44:31.000 --> 44:32.300]  That's how it is in the rest of the world.
[44:32.400 --> 44:34.000]  I don't understand why we have to do things like this.
[44:34.260 --> 44:37.580]  I actually had another question about, um, cellular as well.
[44:37.740 --> 44:46.060]  And that is, um, do you guys have, like, the family talk program there where you can call anybody on your same network for free?
[44:46.260 --> 44:48.300]  There are a couple of companies that have that, yeah.
[44:48.940 --> 45:01.560]  So Singular offers that here, but if you get two phones on your plan, they'll only offer free mobile-to-mobile between the two phones, which means, let's say I want two phones, like I have a car phone and my personal phone.
[45:01.680 --> 45:02.020]  Mm-hmm.
[45:02.400 --> 45:13.460]  If I, if I wanted to pay, you know, like you can pay $9.99 a month and get free mobile-to-mobile to anybody on Singular, but if you're on a family talk plan, they won't let you do that.
[45:14.060 --> 45:16.660]  You only get free mobile-to-mobile between the two phones.
[45:17.100 --> 45:23.360]  I was wondering if you guys knew another company that would allow you to pay the $9.99 but have two phones.
[45:23.480 --> 45:28.940]  There are so many different plans and strategies and things like that, it's really almost impossible to keep track of them all.
[45:29.200 --> 45:29.520]  Right.
[45:29.660 --> 45:31.920]  Um, I've never tried to use that kind of feature myself.
[45:32.280 --> 45:36.780]  So, um, I don't know, if somebody out there has information on that, definitely be interested in hearing it.
[45:37.220 --> 45:37.360]  All right.
[45:37.360 --> 45:49.900]  It's hard enough just figuring out what the best calling plan is that, you know, you don't get totally ripped off on as far as, you know, making long-distance calls or being charged for roaming when you're using the same company, you know, things like that.
[45:50.300 --> 45:50.620]  Yeah.
[45:50.940 --> 45:53.400]  Um, there's just so many different ways they can get you.
[45:53.460 --> 45:54.500]  You have to be really, really careful.
[45:55.000 --> 45:55.280]  Right.
[45:55.360 --> 45:59.200]  And I was wondering if there was another showing of Freedom Downtime in Southern California.
[45:59.460 --> 46:01.140]  Well, you know, there was one just last Sunday.
[46:01.340 --> 46:01.640]  I know.
[46:01.700 --> 46:03.800]  I just missed it because I was out of town that weekend.
[46:03.920 --> 46:05.200]  I guess Kevin was there too, right?
[46:05.200 --> 46:07.600]  Yeah, Kevin, I talked to him yesterday and Kevin was there.
[46:08.560 --> 46:15.080]  It was, it was part, believe it or not, it was still part of the New York City Independent Film and Video Festival that, which for some reason was in Los Angeles.
[46:15.400 --> 46:15.660]  Right.
[46:15.840 --> 46:16.820]  Now that confused me too.
[46:16.900 --> 46:17.600]  It confused them.
[46:17.620 --> 46:19.200]  I'm like, New York, but it's in LA?
[46:19.460 --> 46:19.640]  Yeah.
[46:19.800 --> 46:20.360]  It confused everybody.
[46:20.360 --> 46:21.840]  I don't quite understand how they do things.
[46:21.960 --> 46:24.120]  But, um, yeah, it played on Sunday night.
[46:24.200 --> 46:26.260]  In fact, it was the last film in the film festival.
[46:26.420 --> 46:28.140]  It played Sunday, I think, at 10 o'clock at night.
[46:28.500 --> 46:28.820]  Oh, man.
[46:28.840 --> 46:30.000]  And a bunch of people showed up.
[46:30.080 --> 46:30.600]  Kevin was there.
[46:30.720 --> 46:33.280]  He gave a little talk and, uh, it was, it was really nice.
[46:33.880 --> 46:34.020]  All right.
[46:34.020 --> 46:36.220]  But no more planned for LA at this point?
[46:36.440 --> 46:37.940]  Uh, not that I know of.
[46:38.060 --> 46:38.540]  Not that I know of.
[46:38.540 --> 46:41.560]  Of course, you know, you could always get the video and have your own screening, you know.
[46:41.880 --> 46:42.540]  Yeah, seriously.
[46:42.780 --> 46:44.280]  We, we, we, we encourage that.
[46:44.420 --> 46:46.860]  It's possible that I could show it at TorCon again this year.
[46:47.300 --> 46:48.380]  Yeah, when is TorCon?
[46:48.640 --> 46:50.820]  Uh, I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure.
[46:51.040 --> 46:51.240]  Uh-huh.
[46:51.240 --> 46:52.520]  I need to check the website.
[46:52.780 --> 46:52.980]  Okay.
[46:53.480 --> 46:53.760]  Um.
[46:54.120 --> 46:55.640]  Or it could just be shown at TorCon.
[46:55.780 --> 46:56.560]  Yeah, it could just be shown there.
[46:56.580 --> 46:57.540]  It takes place in San Diego.
[46:57.960 --> 46:58.080]  Yeah.
[46:58.280 --> 46:58.700]  Oh, it does?
[46:58.860 --> 46:59.040]  Okay.
[46:59.620 --> 47:02.060]  You know, any other conventions or 2,600 meetings?
[47:02.260 --> 47:03.940]  They've been shown around the world at 2,600.
[47:03.940 --> 47:04.660]  I know that.
[47:04.900 --> 47:07.540]  Meaning that people go after the meeting to a place and see the video.
[47:08.080 --> 47:08.520]  Okay.
[47:08.700 --> 47:09.620]  Which is kind of cool.
[47:10.280 --> 47:10.420]  Yeah.
[47:10.820 --> 47:15.140]  Have you guys heard about the Bruce Perrin's thing, DMCA, on the open source?
[47:15.500 --> 47:16.220]  Tell us about it.
[47:16.780 --> 47:18.040]  Um, in San Diego.
[47:18.320 --> 47:23.360]  I'm not sure when the date is, but it's O'Reilly's open source, um, convention.
[47:24.040 --> 47:33.220]  Bruce Perrin's going to demonstrate how to unlock a, uh, DVD player to play, uh, regionally encoded DVDs.
[47:34.560 --> 47:35.240]  Sounds dangerous.
[47:35.900 --> 47:36.180]  Yeah.
[47:37.920 --> 47:39.340]  Don't people do that all the time?
[47:39.480 --> 47:40.780]  Yeah, they do, but maybe not publicly.
[47:41.080 --> 47:47.700]  But they've been hyping news about it that, you know, he could possibly be arrested and, you know, fined 50 or $500,000.
[47:48.220 --> 47:57.760]  What I'd like to know, I mean, yeah, basically they, they've enhanced things so that if you turn on your scanner and listen to a cellular phone call, which, you know, I have done many, many times and I still have the scanner that can do it.
[47:57.760 --> 48:00.980]  And you're committing a felony now just by turning on the radio.
[48:01.780 --> 48:12.080]  Does that mean if you just like run across on accident, figure out, um, that something's broken and you can get into something, does that mean you can get in trouble with that under the DMCA?
[48:12.080 --> 48:13.060]  Theoretically, yes.
[48:13.360 --> 48:14.060]  Theoretically, definitely.
[48:14.540 --> 48:16.400]  And, uh, you know, it's very hard to prosecute these things.
[48:16.440 --> 48:18.000]  They have to catch you in the act somehow.
[48:18.260 --> 48:21.700]  So it really just winds up targeting people who are public about it.
[48:22.320 --> 48:25.560]  You know, people like us that will demonstrate something and show people how something works.
[48:25.700 --> 48:26.500]  That becomes the crime.
[48:26.640 --> 48:31.920]  So, yeah, people are sneaking around doing it themselves, but if anybody actually talks about it and demonstrates it, then they become the threat.
[48:32.480 --> 48:33.560]  That's completely crazy.
[48:33.680 --> 48:34.280]  Yeah, it is.
[48:34.280 --> 48:37.880]  That's, that's, that's what we've been fighting for a while now and probably for a while to come.
[48:38.280 --> 48:38.800]  All right.
[48:38.900 --> 48:39.460]  Thanks for the show.
[48:39.640 --> 48:40.180]  Thanks for calling.
[48:40.540 --> 48:40.740]  All right.
[48:40.880 --> 48:43.140]  One little comment on that last and then something else.
[48:43.340 --> 48:51.140]  Uh, it's like teaching black kids to read in 1850s Georgia, uh, you know, not demonstrating to people how, how the technology works.
[48:51.300 --> 48:53.220]  It's a, it's a law that's immoral.
[48:53.480 --> 48:56.980]  You're making it illegal to educate people of a certain background.
[48:57.240 --> 49:02.840]  Yeah, well, I suppose it's, uh, and although this, this applies to everybody, you know, everybody except law enforcement.
[49:02.840 --> 49:05.700]  Law enforcement can continue to spy on people and do these things.
[49:05.900 --> 49:10.200]  Uh, the other thing quickly about freedom downtime, I noticed this at the, at the H2K2.
[49:10.280 --> 49:12.380]  A lot of people left when the credits started.
[49:12.660 --> 49:14.480]  You miss about five minutes of the movie, guys.
[49:14.680 --> 49:15.200]  Well, yeah.
[49:15.440 --> 49:18.440]  In addition to credits, um, it's, uh, there's a, there's a lot there.
[49:18.720 --> 49:20.840]  And, you know, I've always believed that credits are important.
[49:21.240 --> 49:22.540]  People should stay for the credits.
[49:22.800 --> 49:24.240]  Uh, people should read what's there.
[49:24.780 --> 49:27.660]  And, uh, we, we kind of made good on that in this film.
[49:27.820 --> 49:32.260]  So if you leave during the credits, you, uh, you sort of don't find out how the story ends.
[49:32.900 --> 49:33.320]  All right.
[49:33.420 --> 49:34.120]  Let's take another phone call.
[49:34.640 --> 49:35.560]  Uh, let's go over here.
[49:35.740 --> 49:36.180]  Good evening.
[49:36.200 --> 49:36.660]  You're on the air.
[49:37.520 --> 49:38.620]  No, you're not on the air.
[49:38.740 --> 49:39.600]  Let's go over here then.
[49:39.940 --> 49:40.240]  Good evening.
[49:40.420 --> 49:40.960]  You're on the air.
[49:41.980 --> 49:42.560]  Speak up.
[49:42.860 --> 49:45.320]  Hey, um, singular is GPRMS.
[49:46.000 --> 49:46.360]  Okay.
[49:46.900 --> 49:47.880]  It's not GSM.
[49:48.060 --> 49:49.000]  It's not GSM then.
[49:49.180 --> 49:50.980]  Well, how about in, in, in Southern California?
[49:51.140 --> 49:52.520]  It sounds like they, uh, they...
[49:52.520 --> 50:00.800]  Uh, GPRMS is kind of, I, it's my understanding that it's sort of similar, but at Macworld Expo, they were talking about it and they said that it was GPRMS.
[50:00.800 --> 50:03.240]  But is that true throughout the entire country?
[50:03.380 --> 50:04.860]  That might be true in some areas.
[50:05.360 --> 50:06.960]  I think it's, I don't know.
[50:29.760 --> 50:30.760]  Uh-huh.
[50:30.760 --> 50:32.560]  Not that I really want to call Bloomberg.
[50:32.780 --> 50:37.500]  I'm just, you know, it's, it's kind of, kind of interesting that, uh, someone would, uh, be that naive.
[50:38.780 --> 50:39.900]  Makes me, makes me worry.
[50:41.220 --> 50:41.580]  All right.
[50:41.660 --> 50:42.120]  Thanks for your call.
[50:42.200 --> 50:42.600]  Yeah, no problem.
[50:43.460 --> 50:44.640]  212-209-2900.
[50:44.940 --> 50:45.300]  Good evening.
[50:45.440 --> 50:45.860]  You're on the air.
[50:47.080 --> 50:47.400]  Yeah.
[50:48.680 --> 50:49.160]  Hold on.
[50:50.280 --> 50:51.120]  What is this, God?
[50:52.840 --> 50:54.260]  No, just the radio on.
[50:54.560 --> 50:54.700]  Okay.
[50:55.440 --> 50:57.060]  Just a couple of miscellaneous things.
[50:57.380 --> 51:06.100]  Um, AT&T wireless, beginning August 1st, they're going to start charging for uncompleted calls that last more than 30 seconds.
[51:07.020 --> 51:10.000]  You mean if you let the phone ring, like six times?
[51:10.920 --> 51:16.900]  If you do not end a busy or unconnected call within 30 seconds, the call will be treated as if it were completed.
[51:18.040 --> 51:20.560]  That's, uh, that's a precedent you don't want to start.
[51:20.880 --> 51:29.260]  You really don't want, because that means anybody calling this radio show will have to pay, you know, and, and I, I imagine they also cut you off after a certain amount of time, too.
[51:29.460 --> 51:30.620]  Yeah, um, two minutes.
[51:30.980 --> 51:33.760]  So, you're going to have to pay for the two minutes and get cut off.
[51:34.080 --> 51:36.720]  Yeah, if I call you, I could cut off after two minutes, yeah.
[51:36.960 --> 51:38.980]  So, they're going to charge you even though they cut you off.
[51:39.120 --> 51:41.760]  It's like, they can't have it both ways, you know?
[51:41.860 --> 51:51.040]  Either they, either they let you sit on there forever so that you can call and, and, and keep ringing like you used to be able to in the old days, or they, you know, they don't charge you for that.
[51:51.560 --> 52:00.080]  Yeah, they charge, and they're, I'm going to start charging $1.25 for directory assistance plus airtime, roaming, and long distance.
[52:00.420 --> 52:02.100]  Yeah, that's, that's totally insane, too.
[52:02.120 --> 52:04.560]  I remember when information used to be free, you know?
[52:04.680 --> 52:05.500]  It didn't cost anything.
[52:05.940 --> 52:06.940]  Doesn't it want to be free?
[52:07.120 --> 52:10.340]  Uh, I don't know what it wants, but, uh, right now it's not free, that's for sure.
[52:10.880 --> 52:11.080]  No.
[52:11.080 --> 52:14.700]  Um, you were talking about the AT&T calling cards?
[52:15.080 --> 52:15.660]  Were we?
[52:15.720 --> 52:16.220]  A while ago?
[52:16.660 --> 52:18.040]  Uh, this show or a different show?
[52:18.080 --> 52:18.760]  No, not this show.
[52:18.880 --> 52:20.320]  Okay, well, it's quite likely we were.
[52:20.820 --> 52:21.460]  Yeah, anyway.
[52:22.180 --> 52:28.420]  Um, you know, they're charging nine minutes, nine minutes for a payphone surcharge.
[52:29.080 --> 52:30.320]  You're kidding, nine minutes?
[52:30.640 --> 52:31.380]  Nine minutes.
[52:31.920 --> 52:35.820]  And usually when I got one a while ago, like a few months ago, it used to be one or two.
[52:36.000 --> 52:40.960]  I just checked them for the last couple of days, and they're charging nine minutes for a payphone surcharge.
[52:40.960 --> 52:42.200]  Do you know what the permanent charge is?
[52:42.700 --> 52:46.260]  Um, depends on what call you, on how many minutes you buy.
[52:46.260 --> 52:48.840]  Well, if it's like three cents or something, then okay, I could see it.
[52:48.980 --> 52:51.840]  Even though the, you know, charging a penny for using a payphone is unfair.
[52:52.300 --> 52:55.120]  Well, I put a 120-minute card in, of course, ten bucks.
[52:55.420 --> 52:55.740]  Uh-huh.
[52:56.400 --> 53:02.200]  So, you know, to make a one-minute phone call on a payphone is actually using up ten minutes of the time.
[53:02.460 --> 53:02.640]  Yeah.
[53:03.500 --> 53:04.340]  That's just wrong.
[53:04.520 --> 53:05.320]  That's just totally wrong.
[53:05.420 --> 53:06.780]  And that is one of the ways they get you.
[53:06.960 --> 53:10.820]  You know, out of fairness to them, they do get charged because you're calling an 800 number.
[53:10.960 --> 53:18.180]  And for some reason, they pass this bill that says anybody owning an 800 number has to pay a fee when somebody uses a payphone to call it.
[53:18.280 --> 53:22.420]  It doesn't cost them anything to use the payphone, but, you know, they have to pay this fee.
[53:22.440 --> 53:22.560]  Well, that's what they said.
[53:23.120 --> 53:24.920]  They said it's FCC charge.
[53:25.240 --> 53:25.580]  Mm-hmm.
[53:26.240 --> 53:28.340]  Yeah, that just means the FCC mandated the charge.
[53:28.480 --> 53:30.100]  But the money's going someplace.
[53:30.720 --> 53:31.740]  Nobody really knows where.
[53:31.900 --> 53:32.760]  Thanks for the information.
[53:33.820 --> 53:34.560]  Anything else?
[53:34.560 --> 53:34.820]  The thing.
[53:35.120 --> 53:35.260]  Yes.
[53:35.500 --> 53:38.380]  I'm up in, you know, where Orange County is in New York, right?
[53:38.620 --> 53:38.700]  Mm-hmm.
[53:39.080 --> 53:39.520]  Frontier.
[53:40.100 --> 53:40.540]  Okay.
[53:40.580 --> 53:41.360]  The local company.
[53:41.600 --> 53:41.760]  Yeah.
[53:42.080 --> 53:46.520]  And in this month's bill, they enclosed a little insert for terms and conditions.
[53:47.360 --> 53:50.680]  There's a little paragraph in there saying that they want your phone number.
[53:51.040 --> 53:53.480]  They can take it from you and give you another number.
[53:55.680 --> 53:56.080]  Interesting.
[53:56.300 --> 53:57.760]  So the phone number belongs to them.
[53:57.880 --> 53:58.900]  They can just take it from you anytime.
[53:59.200 --> 54:00.160]  This is not new.
[54:00.380 --> 54:01.260]  It's not new, but...
[54:01.260 --> 54:02.220]  Yeah, vanity numbers.
[54:02.440 --> 54:03.040]  For them to say it.
[54:03.220 --> 54:04.600]  No, not just for vanity numbers.
[54:04.700 --> 54:07.900]  No, what I'm saying is if you had a number that happened to spell out something...
[54:07.900 --> 54:08.160]  I see.
[54:08.420 --> 54:13.060]  ...about seven, eight years ago in New York City, they started selling these separate.
[54:13.160 --> 54:14.040]  You could order something.
[54:14.060 --> 54:15.860]  Yeah, but they usually only sell them if they're available.
[54:16.000 --> 54:17.880]  They don't sell them if they belong to somebody else.
[54:17.980 --> 54:23.200]  I had an answering service 10 years ago which happened to have a number that was something like that.
[54:23.740 --> 54:28.520]  It didn't exactly spell something, but it happened to match something of some magazine that's now defunct.
[54:28.640 --> 54:29.900]  So they took it from me.
[54:31.380 --> 54:33.140]  That's just one of the ways the phone companies operate.
[54:33.300 --> 54:34.300]  Anyway, thanks for the information.
[54:34.480 --> 54:37.840]  Let's go up here and see who's on this line.
[54:37.900 --> 54:38.240]  Good evening.
[54:38.680 --> 54:39.540]  You're not on the air.
[54:39.680 --> 54:40.580]  That line always does that.
[54:40.660 --> 54:41.080]  Let's go over here.
[54:41.140 --> 54:41.380]  Good evening.
[54:41.480 --> 54:41.940]  You're on the air.
[54:42.940 --> 54:43.540]  Speak up.
[54:44.180 --> 54:44.540]  Hello.
[54:44.780 --> 54:45.240]  Yes, go ahead.
[54:45.980 --> 54:48.840]  Yes, I just had a comment on the H2K conference.
[54:49.420 --> 54:49.780]  H2K2.
[54:50.360 --> 54:50.720]  Yes.
[54:50.860 --> 54:51.060]  Okay.
[54:51.060 --> 54:52.440]  I was at the conference.
[54:52.600 --> 54:55.520]  I think you guys did a good job of getting information.
[54:55.600 --> 55:02.720]  But I thought it was quite embarrassing for a bunch of hackers not to be able to make a phone call to AT&T.
[55:02.880 --> 55:03.800]  What was up with that?
[55:04.560 --> 55:05.260]  Well, okay.
[55:05.520 --> 55:09.480]  You know, out of fairness, they did cut off our service.
[55:09.680 --> 55:11.700]  You know, I don't know why they did.
[55:11.820 --> 55:13.920]  I mean, I have a suspicion why they cut off our service.
[55:13.920 --> 55:18.960]  But we could not get through to AT&T because we couldn't make any long-distance calls.
[55:19.140 --> 55:28.180]  Now, then, once all the people came up on stage and gave us their calling cards, which I think is a shining example of how the hacker world really works, we did reach AT&T.
[55:28.240 --> 55:34.460]  But getting a human in the security department, you know, at that hour, it's not something that's readily easy.
[55:34.460 --> 55:36.620]  And it wasn't really what we were trying to do in the first place.
[55:37.400 --> 55:41.720]  Oh, because there was like a hundred, what was there, a thousand hackers there?
[55:41.860 --> 55:43.120]  And nobody can get through.
[55:43.800 --> 55:45.740]  Well, we had a phone line that was restricted.
[55:45.740 --> 55:46.700]  And we did get through.
[55:46.700 --> 55:52.120]  It's just that, you know, we didn't have a human in the right place to talk to at that time.
[55:52.240 --> 55:55.100]  And to be honest, I didn't really want to talk to AT&T.
[55:55.260 --> 55:56.680]  I mean, we did that two years earlier.
[55:56.960 --> 55:57.880]  And it was fun then.
[55:57.880 --> 56:03.740]  I wanted to do something a little bit more, you know, I don't know, more retail-oriented, which is what we wound up doing.
[56:04.460 --> 56:04.640]  That's right.
[56:04.700 --> 56:07.100]  And I think you guys did a pretty good job of getting that information.
[56:07.100 --> 56:10.740]  But maybe at DEF CON, we'll have some better hackers that can get AT&T.
[56:10.920 --> 56:13.060]  I don't think I'm coming back to any more of your conferences.
[56:13.300 --> 56:14.500]  Okay, well, that's...
[56:14.500 --> 56:15.660]  You guys, I don't know.
[56:15.760 --> 56:20.300]  It just seems like you guys just don't have what it takes to make those calls anymore.
[56:20.460 --> 56:22.260]  Making local calls isn't that cool.
[56:23.620 --> 56:25.240]  This must be one of the DEF CON people.
[56:25.440 --> 56:27.720]  Okay, well, have fun out there in your little...
[56:28.340 --> 56:31.540]  Well, look at their website and tell me if you even see a social engineering panel.
[56:31.660 --> 56:32.500]  Just leave it at that.
[56:35.000 --> 56:36.040]  I like criticism.
[56:36.240 --> 56:37.460]  I really do, but...
[56:37.460 --> 56:38.760]  Some people just don't get it.
[56:38.880 --> 56:39.540]  No, they don't.
[56:40.500 --> 56:41.040]  Good evening.
[56:41.160 --> 56:41.660]  You're on the air.
[56:42.520 --> 56:42.880]  Okay.
[56:43.320 --> 56:43.640]  Good evening.
[56:43.700 --> 56:44.160]  You're on the air.
[56:46.040 --> 56:46.780]  Speak up, please.
[56:47.880 --> 56:48.240]  Yeah.
[56:48.660 --> 56:49.320]  How are you doing?
[56:51.080 --> 56:52.040]  I just...
[56:52.040 --> 56:55.840]  I'm wondering if there are any downloadable rings for the Motorola.
[56:57.740 --> 57:00.140]  You're talking about on a GSM phone, I believe.
[57:00.220 --> 57:03.140]  I think on the VoiceStream website.
[57:04.980 --> 57:08.620]  Assuming you're using a GSM network, you can simply download rings.
[57:08.900 --> 57:15.720]  I don't like doing that because they say that if you download a ring and then you want to download another one and then you download the first one again, you have to pay for it twice.
[57:15.720 --> 57:17.160]  You know, there's no way to save it.
[57:17.480 --> 57:18.380]  I don't think that's fair.
[57:19.220 --> 57:20.060]  Let's go to another phone call.
[57:20.120 --> 57:20.300]  Good evening.
[57:20.380 --> 57:20.740]  You're on the air.
[57:21.240 --> 57:21.520]  Hey.
[57:21.760 --> 57:22.100]  What's up?
[57:22.500 --> 57:23.020]  Hey, look.
[57:23.100 --> 57:23.520]  It's a Canadian.
[57:23.800 --> 57:24.540]  Hey, how are you doing?
[57:24.900 --> 57:25.640]  I'm pretty good.
[57:26.200 --> 57:26.880]  What's on your mind?
[57:27.100 --> 57:29.700]  I had a great time at the con.
[57:30.080 --> 57:30.400]  Cool.
[57:31.200 --> 57:34.720]  And, Red Bull Aclova, I hope your indictment goes okay for you.
[57:36.460 --> 57:40.360]  Indictments usually don't go okay, but I think he understands what you mean.
[57:40.940 --> 57:43.500]  Yes, and his tour down Wall Street was quite entertaining.
[57:43.720 --> 57:44.240]  Oh, thank you.
[57:44.340 --> 57:46.320]  You have 15 seconds to wrap up as we are out of time.
[57:46.780 --> 57:46.960]  Okay.
[57:47.440 --> 57:50.060]  Definitely hope you have another one in two years, and I'll certainly be there.
[57:50.200 --> 57:50.500]  Okay.
[57:50.620 --> 57:51.220]  I'll look forward to it.
[57:51.300 --> 57:52.220]  Thanks for coming.
[57:52.540 --> 57:52.680]  Bye.
[57:53.420 --> 57:58.980]  And I think that's what most people will say, people who are there, that they will come back.
[57:58.980 --> 58:00.140]  At least that's what I sure hope.
[58:00.300 --> 58:03.000]  Again, feedback at h2k2.net for those people who are there.
[58:03.180 --> 58:05.540]  Pictures at h2k2.net for people who have pictures you want to share.
[58:05.880 --> 58:10.220]  And people who want to feedback to the show, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:11.160 --> 58:12.240]  We'll see you next week.
[58:12.380 --> 58:13.140]  Same time, same place.
[58:13.660 --> 58:33.820]  I thought I would go to the sea And shrink down very tiny And slide inside the toe for a while And runs under the planet Till I found there is a wave Crawling to the U.S.A.
[58:38.570 --> 58:45.310]  And go to the fire This one, we're at this other one We'll leave your mother and you'll fall