[00:00.000 --> 00:05.600]  In Tolima, the army blocked roads prohibiting the transit of 7,000 campesinos.
[00:06.000 --> 00:09.660]  In Bogota, Nicole Carson for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:13.560 --> 00:15.800]  This is Free Speech Radio News.
[00:16.000 --> 00:17.180]  I'm Deepa Fernandez.
[00:21.900 --> 00:25.440]  And this is radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:25.660 --> 00:29.960]  The program about to come up is off the hook.
[00:35.360 --> 00:37.280]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:37.660 --> 00:39.840]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:40.860 --> 00:42.830]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:43.460 --> 00:45.400]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:12.700 --> 01:14.820]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:15.040 --> 01:16.240]  The program is off the hook.
[01:16.420 --> 01:18.360]  Yes, we're back.
[01:18.580 --> 01:18.920]  Oh boy.
[01:18.920 --> 01:27.140]  I really should apologize to the listeners for, well, I guess for just not being here for the last few weeks.
[01:27.200 --> 01:30.100]  Although it wasn't my choice, trust me on that one.
[01:31.720 --> 01:33.180]  We haven't been here since August.
[01:33.560 --> 01:35.380]  And now it's mid-September.
[01:36.560 --> 01:40.100]  Really, really frustrating, especially since the first week we were preempted.
[01:40.180 --> 01:42.160]  The program we were preempted for didn't even show up.
[01:42.160 --> 01:44.580]  So you might have heard nothing but music that hour.
[01:45.020 --> 01:46.060]  That was frustrating.
[01:46.660 --> 01:54.540]  And then, of course, last week being 9-11, that was frustrating not being able to do anything for 9-11 on the radio, which we had wanted to do.
[01:54.760 --> 01:56.320]  In fact, it's kind of ironic.
[01:56.480 --> 01:57.060]  It's always ironic.
[01:57.240 --> 01:58.420]  It's always ironic in a bad way.
[01:58.500 --> 01:58.980]  I don't know why.
[01:59.180 --> 02:02.180]  But last year, 9-11 fell on a Tuesday.
[02:02.380 --> 02:04.920]  And our program was on on Tuesdays last year.
[02:04.920 --> 02:15.040]  So I actually managed to make it all the way into the city on 9-11, the 9-11, you know, and from Long Island, from like 60 miles away.
[02:15.760 --> 02:17.940]  And they said it was impossible, but I made it anyway.
[02:18.160 --> 02:26.880]  And by the time I got here, of course, the station was off the air because the third tower had fallen, taking the phone lines with it.
[02:26.880 --> 02:28.980]  And, I guess, power and things like that as well.
[02:29.400 --> 02:34.780]  But it was particularly sad because we had the ability to broadcast.
[02:35.240 --> 02:36.740]  We had the ability to broadcast.
[02:36.740 --> 02:38.960]  I don't know if you remember last year was 2001.
[02:39.040 --> 02:43.280]  That was the evil year for us here at BAI where...
[02:43.880 --> 02:57.220]  I don't want to use the word hijacked because it might be taken offense at, but the station was taken over by people that really didn't know the first thing about running radio, which seems to be the case a lot with most radio stations.
[02:57.360 --> 02:59.260]  Fortunately, it's not the case with this one, not right now.
[02:59.400 --> 03:00.660]  But last year it was.
[03:00.760 --> 03:06.840]  And last year it was a programming decision to sign the station off at 6 p.m.
[03:06.960 --> 03:09.080]  every night and sign on at 6 a.m.
[03:09.280 --> 03:19.620]  every morning during the crisis, during the World Trade Center, and broadcast from a secret location that people on the station were not told about, except for certain people.
[03:19.860 --> 03:22.300]  Only a handful of people knew where we were broadcasting from.
[03:22.860 --> 03:25.180]  And so a lot of voices were silenced then.
[03:25.260 --> 03:29.020]  A lot of people weren't able to talk about 9-11 as it was happening.
[03:29.180 --> 03:37.500]  A lot of listeners, obviously, weren't able to call in and share their experiences and get some comfort from the airwaves, which I think is one of the important things that we do here.
[03:38.340 --> 03:42.960]  And it was extremely frustrating because last year 9-11 fell on Tuesday.
[03:43.100 --> 03:54.980]  When we moved to Wednesday nights, I knew that the show would be on 9-11, so we were kind of getting something together for that and hopefully being able to talk to listeners and share experiences and that kind of thing.
[03:55.080 --> 03:58.420]  And then we were told two weeks ago that we were preempted for the next two weeks in a row.
[03:58.460 --> 03:59.680]  In other words, no notice at all.
[04:00.000 --> 04:14.280]  Had we known a week or so in advance, we could have done the 9-11 special on 9-4, but not getting any notice at all and also not getting any kind of response as far as, well, can we maybe, you know, work it out in a different way.
[04:15.100 --> 04:19.380]  It's frustrating because I think talking is a very important part of this whole thing.
[04:19.540 --> 04:30.100]  And that's one thing that there was very little of except for the right-wing talk shows on AM radio where people were able to share their experiences and their thoughts and their suggestions and things like that.
[04:30.680 --> 04:35.460]  And so I want to thank everybody for writing in and voicing their outrage.
[04:36.480 --> 04:37.500]  Sure got a lot of letters.
[04:37.640 --> 04:38.600]  I'm going to read a few of them.
[04:39.180 --> 04:40.100]  Can't read all of them.
[04:41.100 --> 04:43.080]  Some of them I can't read because of FCC regulations.
[04:43.980 --> 04:48.640]  As a long-time listener and supporter of WBAI, I tried to voice my disappointment at the off-the-hook scheduling.
[04:49.100 --> 04:58.520]  I sent email to both the general manager and the program director, but both email addresses bounced since the count is over quota according to the message that they sent us.
[04:58.520 --> 04:59.900]  And yes, I know the frustration.
[05:00.140 --> 05:01.060]  I experienced it myself.
[05:01.780 --> 05:04.720]  And also full voicemails and things like that.
[05:04.800 --> 05:06.540]  And calls not coming back.
[05:06.720 --> 05:13.060]  And I just feel like you're swimming upstream, I think is the appropriate phrase.
[05:14.920 --> 05:16.020]  What else do we have here?
[05:16.100 --> 05:17.420]  I look forward to the show every week.
[05:17.500 --> 05:19.780]  Sometimes my busy day bleeds into a night as well.
[05:20.300 --> 05:22.860]  I may miss it live or whatever, but I listen to most.
[05:23.620 --> 05:26.440]  Why would they not air you when there seems to be plenty of time?
[05:26.440 --> 05:27.740]  That's the thing, okay?
[05:27.900 --> 05:29.940]  And that listener nailed it.
[05:30.020 --> 05:31.180]  There is plenty of time.
[05:31.380 --> 05:32.960]  Now, we did a 13-hour special.
[05:33.000 --> 05:37.960]  I'm not questioning programming decisions at all because that's not my domain.
[05:38.180 --> 05:41.780]  But I do think that the station works when we share the time.
[05:42.180 --> 05:52.080]  You know, when one issue, one thing is not considered more important than another thing, when everybody has the opportunity to say something, to voice things from their perspective.
[05:52.320 --> 05:52.820]  Now, who are we?
[05:52.860 --> 05:53.700]  A bunch of computer hackers?
[05:53.820 --> 05:55.040]  What kind of perspective do we have?
[05:55.040 --> 05:56.300]  Well, let me tell you something.
[05:56.520 --> 05:57.760]  We're number three.
[05:57.920 --> 05:58.700]  That's right.
[05:58.780 --> 06:01.040]  We're number three on the FBI's list.
[06:01.300 --> 06:03.100]  The FBI's new mandate.
[06:03.600 --> 06:10.440]  Yes, if you've been paying attention, you'd know that the FBI now exists to wipe out three things.
[06:10.860 --> 06:14.840]  Terrorism, espionage, and hackers.
[06:15.260 --> 06:16.020]  That's right.
[06:16.120 --> 06:17.100]  We're number three.
[06:18.680 --> 06:26.860]  So, we have a very, I think, interesting viewpoint here to present, one that's not presented anywhere else.
[06:26.920 --> 06:36.160]  I know what people are saying, not the kind of hackers that we are, not the kind of hackers that we tend to portray and embrace.
[06:37.320 --> 06:42.800]  But, tell that to the average person on the street who simply watches CNN and Fox News.
[06:43.140 --> 06:46.100]  What's their interpretation of what a hacker is?
[06:46.360 --> 06:51.360]  Maybe it's exactly the same thing that the FBI thinks is a cyber terrorist.
[06:51.700 --> 07:00.040]  Maybe the kid in high school playing with Windows 95 and figuring out a way to send a message to all the terminals in the school at the same time.
[07:00.040 --> 07:09.600]  Maybe that person is being looked at in the same way as a terrorist taking down the electric grid or whatever it is that they're obsessed about these days.
[07:11.300 --> 07:15.960]  Ignorance is what makes these notions thrive.
[07:16.280 --> 07:21.300]  And the way to combat the ignorance is to talk about it and to share experiences.
[07:21.300 --> 07:25.660]  And you can't do that when you're overshadowed by all these other issues.
[07:26.860 --> 07:30.700]  So, what I'm angry about is that we have a radio station here.
[07:30.700 --> 07:32.180]  We have 24 hours a day.
[07:32.320 --> 07:33.260]  We have 7 days a week.
[07:33.280 --> 07:33.980]  Last I checked.
[07:35.460 --> 07:40.060]  And we should be dividing it amongst many different people.
[07:40.520 --> 07:41.380]  Many people.
[07:41.520 --> 07:42.960]  Because there's so many issues to cover.
[07:43.160 --> 07:51.060]  And these are really catastrophic times for the issues of freedom, liberty, all that kind of thing.
[07:51.120 --> 07:51.740]  Every day.
[07:51.960 --> 07:53.720]  Every day there is something new happening.
[07:54.900 --> 07:55.540]  Every week.
[07:55.620 --> 07:56.860]  I don't think people realize this.
[07:57.200 --> 07:58.760]  I don't think a lot of people realize this.
[07:58.920 --> 08:04.140]  That either listen to the station or make decisions as to what show goes on where.
[08:05.040 --> 08:07.220]  But there are so many things that we don't get to cover.
[08:07.800 --> 08:09.720]  I come in here with a hand truck.
[08:10.000 --> 08:11.060]  Every week a hand truck.
[08:11.280 --> 08:12.240]  Of documents.
[08:12.580 --> 08:14.060]  And we don't get to cover all of that.
[08:14.140 --> 08:19.120]  In fact, the whole half hour after the show is us in the lobby bemoaning the fact that we forgot to talk about this and that.
[08:20.880 --> 08:24.140]  And, you know, there's a lot that we don't get to cover.
[08:24.420 --> 08:26.080]  We always want to be able to take phone calls.
[08:26.180 --> 08:30.680]  We always want to be able to have people on the show that are doing something particularly interesting.
[08:30.860 --> 08:34.220]  But it's, you know, that one hour a week is just so precious.
[08:34.220 --> 08:44.460]  And to have something so major go by and not have anything to say is just really frustrating.
[08:45.020 --> 08:49.580]  Let's read a couple more letters and we'll read some news and hopefully take some calls and things like that.
[08:53.440 --> 08:55.920]  This person... a lot of people wrote in to say this.
[08:56.060 --> 08:58.380]  Why don't you just move yourself to internet radio?
[08:58.540 --> 09:03.820]  After all, a lot of listeners you have listen on the internet and then you wouldn't be subject to the will of others.
[09:06.460 --> 09:14.260]  Well, there's a reason why we don't want to do that because the radio station is the spine, if you will.
[09:15.380 --> 09:17.320]  It's basically what it's all about.
[09:17.360 --> 09:28.500]  The fact that we are on a radio station in the middle of the dial in New York City reaching people who would otherwise not be going home, turning on the computer, connecting to our website, and listening to a show that they know is going to be on at a certain time.
[09:28.760 --> 09:31.240]  We're getting a lot of people driving in their vehicles.
[09:31.240 --> 09:34.920]  We're getting a lot of grandmothers who are trying to get to Z100 and hit us on the way.
[09:35.860 --> 09:43.860]  People who would not ordinarily be listening to this kind of a thing, stumbling upon it and learning and hearing our perspective.
[09:43.860 --> 09:46.640]  That is what the power of a radio station is.
[09:46.720 --> 09:52.400]  And that's why you want to have as many different kinds of viewpoints and opinions expressed as possible.
[09:52.520 --> 09:53.440]  You want that dialogue.
[09:53.580 --> 09:54.640]  You want that back and forth.
[09:54.920 --> 09:56.240]  And yeah, the internet is great.
[09:56.240 --> 09:58.460]  It will ensure that we're never completely silenced.
[09:58.620 --> 10:03.720]  But to just completely go over to the internet and forget about the radio station would be very self-defeating.
[10:03.940 --> 10:05.380]  The radio station is what makes this possible.
[10:05.460 --> 10:08.820]  The radio station is what we've been fighting for for all these years.
[10:09.420 --> 10:11.440]  And I'm not about to give up on it in that way.
[10:11.580 --> 10:13.020]  So that's the reason why.
[10:13.100 --> 10:16.660]  Yes, it's technically possible, but you limit your audience incredibly.
[10:17.520 --> 10:19.600]  Only to the people that have the ability to do it.
[10:19.720 --> 10:24.420]  Only to the people that are interested in undergoing the effort to listen to the program in the first place.
[10:25.260 --> 10:27.980]  And you leave out a lot of other people, which we don't want to leave out.
[10:29.040 --> 10:33.180]  Plus, it's a pain in the ass because we've got to get a studio together and all that kind of thing.
[10:33.280 --> 10:35.100]  But, you know, that would be easy.
[10:35.200 --> 10:36.300]  That would be no problem at all.
[10:36.300 --> 10:38.740]  But we want to continue with the radio station.
[10:38.860 --> 10:39.700]  I think that's paramount.
[10:39.760 --> 10:41.740]  And I don't think people should write things off.
[10:41.820 --> 10:43.640]  A lot of people are very angry.
[10:43.640 --> 10:48.980]  And we don't want that anger to transfer into people not supporting the station or not listening to the station.
[10:49.440 --> 10:50.340]  That's the other thing.
[10:50.560 --> 10:53.760]  So many people have come into the station through this radio program.
[10:53.820 --> 11:00.260]  And I always hear, whenever there's a Pacifica meeting of some sort, the need to bring in the young listeners.
[11:00.900 --> 11:07.160]  I don't think you can find a show on any of the Pacifica stations that bring in a younger audience than ours.
[11:08.060 --> 11:11.640]  And people listen to the rest of the radio station as a result of that.
[11:12.420 --> 11:13.560]  And that's very important.
[11:14.760 --> 11:23.520]  And the things that we hear from them, the things that we're able to share, I think, are vital in this troubled time that we live in.
[11:23.620 --> 11:25.140]  And, boy, is it ever a troubled time.
[11:25.260 --> 11:27.100]  It's going to get probably a lot worse.
[11:27.100 --> 11:27.120]  Yes.
[11:29.380 --> 11:30.040]  Let's see.
[11:30.280 --> 11:35.560]  I could read these for another half hour, but I think we really should get on with more news items.
[11:36.100 --> 11:38.820]  But we welcome you to phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[11:39.020 --> 11:47.660]  I see the phones are all lit up now, but I should warn you that the phone company tends to disconnect people after it rings for a period of time.
[11:47.700 --> 11:52.640]  So you might just want to wait until we actually say, okay, we're going to the phones, and then call them.
[11:54.080 --> 11:56.820]  If you're local, you might actually not get hung up on.
[11:57.100 --> 12:00.000]  I can't swear to it either way.
[12:01.320 --> 12:03.280]  Okay, the color changed.
[12:03.500 --> 12:03.900]  Yes.
[12:04.060 --> 12:05.440]  Oh, let me say hi to Mike.
[12:05.720 --> 12:06.000]  Hello.
[12:06.220 --> 12:06.540]  Hey, Mike.
[12:06.660 --> 12:07.460]  And Jim, how are you?
[12:07.760 --> 12:08.440]  I'm all right.
[12:08.560 --> 12:08.700]  Good.
[12:09.300 --> 12:10.400]  Yeah, the color changed.
[12:10.520 --> 12:13.280]  And this is something that we would have probably devoted the whole show to.
[12:13.980 --> 12:18.820]  We've been talking about this since it got started, the security alert.
[12:19.020 --> 12:20.340]  So what is the color now?
[12:20.480 --> 12:21.560]  The color now is orange.
[12:21.560 --> 12:23.720]  It was yellow last time we were on the air in August.
[12:23.720 --> 12:25.360]  Well, fall is coming up.
[12:25.560 --> 12:27.040]  Yeah, I guess it's to match the leaves.
[12:27.160 --> 12:28.820]  I'm not sure exactly what.
[12:29.020 --> 12:31.180]  But we're now at a high state of alert.
[12:31.600 --> 12:33.980]  It was hilarious watching the news networks.
[12:34.080 --> 12:35.400]  They all had a little indicator.
[12:35.640 --> 12:37.100]  This is what I wanted to do months ago.
[12:37.120 --> 12:40.700]  I wanted to have an indicator on a website and just have the color changed.
[12:40.720 --> 12:44.080]  But we couldn't find out how to get the notification when the color changed.
[12:44.660 --> 12:45.880]  But now everybody's into it.
[12:45.980 --> 12:47.300]  Everybody's saying, okay, it's orange.
[12:48.460 --> 12:51.880]  And I don't know what we're supposed to do differently now that it's orange.
[12:51.880 --> 12:56.980]  I don't know what information is being given to indicate that we are orange and not yellow.
[12:57.700 --> 12:59.440]  But we're one step away from red.
[12:59.560 --> 13:00.060]  Red is it.
[13:00.180 --> 13:00.500]  I don't know.
[13:00.640 --> 13:04.900]  When red is here, I guess that's when bombs are dropping out of the air or something like that.
[13:06.340 --> 13:07.200]  But I don't know.
[13:07.300 --> 13:10.180]  I don't know who gets to make the final call on this.
[13:10.380 --> 13:11.320]  I think the president.
[13:11.740 --> 13:12.620]  It's up to him.
[13:12.980 --> 13:14.100]  Isn't it Tom Ridge?
[13:14.480 --> 13:15.660]  The Homeland Security guy?
[13:15.760 --> 13:17.080]  They agree on everything anyway.
[13:17.220 --> 13:17.420]  Yeah.
[13:17.760 --> 13:18.300]  That's true.
[13:18.340 --> 13:18.560]  They do.
[13:20.060 --> 13:22.060]  But I don't know when we're going to go back down to yellow.
[13:22.420 --> 13:23.540]  I mean, we're still at orange.
[13:23.560 --> 13:24.660]  So it's a week afterwards.
[13:24.940 --> 13:27.800]  Maybe we could just skip yellow and go back straight to green.
[13:28.280 --> 13:42.300]  It just seems to me that since this whole charade started, and I'm talking about since last year when it started, because actually this charade has been going on for quite some time, we have done officially exactly the opposite of what everybody has been urged to do,
[13:42.420 --> 13:43.680]  that is lead a normal life.
[13:43.940 --> 13:56.640]  Everywhere you go, barricades being erected, soldiers marching around, and color codes and all kinds of craziness, that really doesn't do any good.
[13:56.820 --> 14:07.120]  And just today I heard on the radio that they knew, they knew that terrorists were plotting to crash airplanes into the World Trade Center.
[14:07.320 --> 14:08.760]  Now that's pretty damn specific.
[14:09.100 --> 14:11.200]  But yet they didn't tell anybody.
[14:11.580 --> 14:14.780]  I mean, yeah, okay, I could see maybe you didn't know when they were going to do it.
[14:14.860 --> 14:16.840]  They do tend to surprise people as to when.
[14:17.000 --> 14:24.500]  But why not simply let everybody who works in the World Trade Center know that this is something that has been voiced as a legitimate threat.
[14:24.500 --> 14:27.520]  And then maybe you'd think twice about working there, you know?
[14:27.640 --> 14:32.260]  Maybe you'd know when the first building got hit that, hey, they're going to do this again.
[14:32.260 --> 14:33.080]  This is serious.
[14:33.660 --> 14:35.700]  You know, education is important.
[14:35.700 --> 14:39.700]  And I think that's something that we're not getting anymore.
[14:39.980 --> 14:44.340]  You know, this whole secrecy business, if it's not handled properly...
[14:45.800 --> 14:46.740]  One moment.
[14:46.900 --> 14:50.880]  I hate to destroy a good conspiracy theory being the...
[14:51.420 --> 14:52.440]  Well, anyway...
[14:52.440 --> 14:53.480]  It's not a conspiracy theory.
[14:53.480 --> 14:54.060]  No, hang on.
[14:54.180 --> 14:56.940]  If you're talking about the Joint Committee hearings on...
[14:57.640 --> 15:03.400]  The hearings by the Joint Committee on Intelligence, they didn't say it was specific about crashing airplanes.
[15:03.780 --> 15:04.240]  But they said...
[15:04.240 --> 15:04.940]  Yeah, they said that.
[15:05.080 --> 15:05.980]  I heard it on the radio today.
[15:06.220 --> 15:10.560]  I was listening to the news stations up until 5.30 p.m., so I don't know.
[15:10.740 --> 15:11.760]  But what they said was...
[15:11.760 --> 15:13.420]  I think it was also on BAI, too, but I heard it on...
[15:13.420 --> 15:16.560]  BAI, I take everything with a grain of salt, including what I say.
[15:16.600 --> 15:18.420]  And you don't take everything with a grain of salt on the other stations?
[15:18.460 --> 15:19.540]  Two grains, but anyway...
[15:19.540 --> 15:22.620]  Yeah, well, the thing is, I heard it on one of the other stations and BAI.
[15:22.620 --> 15:30.000]  The first spokeswoman for the Joint Committee was that they knew Al-Qaeda was doing something big that involved the hijacking of multiple airplanes.
[15:30.800 --> 15:36.080]  But they did not, as far as I know, know that it was to crash them into a building.
[15:36.100 --> 15:37.480]  Yes, the only difference was...
[15:37.480 --> 15:38.540]  I will wait until tomorrow.
[15:38.600 --> 15:41.240]  The only difference was... yeah, read the New York Post, you'll see it there.
[15:41.400 --> 15:42.160]  I'll read the Times.
[15:42.340 --> 15:50.320]  The only difference was they said they were going to hijack the planes from overseas and use explosives on the airplanes to crash them.
[15:50.320 --> 15:52.460]  That was the only difference, but everything else was exactly the same.
[15:52.580 --> 15:53.540]  The location, the method, everything.
[15:53.540 --> 15:55.780]  I will wait to hear more quotes from the committee.
[15:56.460 --> 15:56.860]  Okay.
[16:00.100 --> 16:01.080]  Let's see, what else?
[16:02.280 --> 16:03.920]  Okay, we have some news items.
[16:03.980 --> 16:04.740]  Let's get to those.
[16:05.220 --> 16:06.880]  The terrorists, though, have been defeated.
[16:07.220 --> 16:07.600]  Oh?
[16:07.760 --> 16:08.400]  Were they defeated?
[16:08.820 --> 16:09.220]  Yes.
[16:09.420 --> 16:12.640]  I had to leave, so I turned the TV set off and I missed the end.
[16:12.700 --> 16:13.900]  They were defeated in the end.
[16:14.340 --> 16:14.740]  Yes.
[16:14.960 --> 16:15.260]  Okay.
[16:15.400 --> 16:17.820]  The Westside IRT has returned to full service.
[16:17.860 --> 16:20.100]  You know, I was on the first train.
[16:20.100 --> 16:20.880]  Ah, really?
[16:21.080 --> 16:22.100]  Yeah, I was on the first...
[16:22.100 --> 16:23.460]  Actually, here's an interesting story.
[16:23.880 --> 16:26.340]  I read about this on Usenet.
[16:26.480 --> 16:30.840]  Great news group, nyc.transit, everything you want to know about subways and buses and things like that.
[16:31.380 --> 16:46.160]  And I found out, I guess Motorman or somebody posted this information, that the first train, the actual first train, the number one train, that would go through the restored stations, going past, was it Chambers Street to Rector Street and South Ferry?
[16:46.200 --> 16:49.540]  Chambers, Skipping, Cortland, Rector, and South Ferry.
[16:50.280 --> 16:54.840]  That first train would leave 242nd Street at 950 on Saturday night.
[16:55.760 --> 17:04.960]  So me, you know, geek that I am as far as subways, went all the way up there to ride that last train, or that first train, actually, that would go through.
[17:05.140 --> 17:09.200]  And wouldn't you know it, there were other people there waiting to get on the same train.
[17:09.440 --> 17:12.400]  I figured, you know, I'd get a window, you know, the front window.
[17:12.580 --> 17:13.160]  No such luck.
[17:13.160 --> 17:16.880]  Well, actually, what happened was, they told, I didn't say anything.
[17:17.080 --> 17:18.480]  I just was there kind of silently.
[17:18.720 --> 17:22.200]  But the other people were, you know, asking everybody, hey, is this the first train to South Ferry?
[17:22.500 --> 17:24.160]  And they were told no.
[17:24.820 --> 17:29.240]  They said, no, the first train is going to leave here after 11, so that it gets there at 1201.
[17:29.960 --> 17:38.840]  I figured that, in the tradition of the MTA giving out bad information, that they were just going to continue doing that now, and that I should just get on that train anyway.
[17:38.840 --> 17:39.240]  And I did.
[17:39.840 --> 17:44.140]  We got all the way to Chambers Street, and the conductor announced last stop.
[17:44.240 --> 17:44.860]  Everybody was getting off.
[17:44.940 --> 17:49.280]  But then I noticed there were all these guys with yellow vests on taking pictures of the train.
[17:49.820 --> 17:50.860]  So I said, hey, wait a minute.
[17:50.940 --> 17:52.000]  There's something going on here.
[17:52.160 --> 17:55.540]  And I just sort of, like, milled around with them because some of them weren't wearing the yellow vests.
[17:55.640 --> 17:59.880]  Some of them were dressed up in street clothes, I guess the engineers and things like that.
[17:59.960 --> 18:05.060]  And everybody just kind of, like, swarmed into the train, and I let myself be caught up in that.
[18:05.820 --> 18:14.560]  And before you knew it, the whole first car was filled with subway employees, and we went right all the way to South Ferry and back.
[18:14.700 --> 18:17.740]  And they were so proud of the work they had done.
[18:17.860 --> 18:23.240]  These are people that actually had done the work, and they knew when they were getting on certain types of track.
[18:23.240 --> 18:26.280]  They knew certain kinds of walls that they were going by.
[18:26.700 --> 18:28.300]  And it was really cool.
[18:28.320 --> 18:31.880]  It was really cool being with those people because those were the right people to be with at a time like that.
[18:31.880 --> 18:34.600]  And I guess I was on the first train.
[18:34.680 --> 18:35.860]  It wasn't the first passenger train, though.
[18:35.940 --> 18:38.120]  I guess the first passenger train was the one at 1201.
[18:38.240 --> 18:40.560]  But, yeah, that's the fun I had, you know.
[18:40.960 --> 18:45.860]  Just seeing something get brought back to normal, somewhat normal.
[18:45.980 --> 18:47.360]  They still are skipping Cortland Street.
[18:49.620 --> 18:51.660]  Anyway, let's continue with news.
[18:52.700 --> 18:57.580]  Actually, here's a news story about the MetroCard, which might interest you, Jim.
[18:57.940 --> 18:58.680]  Oh, does it not?
[18:59.480 --> 19:09.840]  People who tamper with MetroCards, this is according to the New York Law Journal, people who tamper with MetroCards to obtain free bus or subway rides can be charged with forgery.
[19:09.840 --> 19:11.860]  That's according to a family court judge.
[19:11.880 --> 19:13.300]  Well, this is nothing new to me.
[19:13.820 --> 19:15.720]  Yeah, but a family court judge, now I'm saying.
[19:15.920 --> 19:16.700]  What is...
[19:16.700 --> 19:18.580]  Well, okay, here's the story here.
[19:18.640 --> 19:23.540]  In a case of first impression, I'm not sure what that means exactly, Queens Judge Fran L.
[19:23.680 --> 19:33.800]  Lubau found that MetroCards, which are digital cards that decrease in value after being swiped through electronic readers, constitute a written instrument under New York Penal Law 170.
[19:34.720 --> 19:43.820]  Last week's ruling comes in the case of a minor accused of bending a MetroCard until it registered a free fare, allowing his friend to enter the subway without paying.
[19:44.140 --> 19:47.420]  The minor identified only as DU.
[19:48.640 --> 19:49.180]  DU.
[19:49.880 --> 19:51.260]  Do you know who DU is?
[19:51.400 --> 19:52.860]  I would guess those are the initials.
[19:52.860 --> 19:54.140]  Are you listening, DU?
[19:55.320 --> 19:55.560]  No.
[19:56.160 --> 20:00.640]  Anyway, the minor had been observed by a member of the New York City Transit Bureau's Vandal Squad.
[20:00.740 --> 20:02.200]  What's the Vandal Squad, Jim?
[20:02.380 --> 20:06.420]  They usually watch out for people doing scruchitti or graffiti.
[20:06.760 --> 20:07.540]  The Vandal...
[20:07.540 --> 20:10.160]  They wear the horned police hats.
[20:10.480 --> 20:11.580]  Oh, okay, I've seen them.
[20:11.580 --> 20:12.020]  The Vandal Squad.
[20:12.220 --> 20:12.800]  I've seen them.
[20:13.960 --> 20:15.740]  Visigoth Squad, also Ostrogoth Squad.
[20:15.740 --> 20:19.320]  There's a whole civilization going on in the subway that you don't know about.
[20:19.320 --> 20:21.260]  You can only tell them by the difference in the horns.
[20:22.120 --> 20:25.940]  Okay, a spokesman for the Corporation Counsel's Office, which prosecutes...
[20:25.940 --> 20:26.980]  Is that part of the subway?
[20:27.060 --> 20:27.980]  The Corporation Counsel?
[20:28.120 --> 20:28.980]  That's part of the city.
[20:29.220 --> 20:29.880]  Part of the city.
[20:30.100 --> 20:32.040]  What kind of stupid name is Corporation Counsel?
[20:32.220 --> 20:34.400]  The city is technically a legal corporation.
[20:34.720 --> 20:35.860]  Why don't they call it the City Counsel?
[20:36.380 --> 20:38.320]  Because that's a legislative body.
[20:40.280 --> 20:43.020]  If we had more time, we could debate this more.
[20:43.020 --> 20:54.260]  But a spokesman for the Corporation Counsel's Office, which prosecutes cases against minors, said the kid could face up to 18 months in prison if convicted for bending a MetroCard.
[20:55.400 --> 20:55.920]  Unbelievable.
[20:56.480 --> 21:02.260]  The boy's attorney moved to dismiss the forgery charge, contending that the petition was facially insufficient.
[21:02.460 --> 21:03.480]  That's a legal term.
[21:03.660 --> 21:05.180]  On the face of it, it's insufficient.
[21:07.220 --> 21:20.560]  Penal law defines written instrument as any instrument or article, including computer data or a computer program, containing written or printed matter, or the equivalent thereof, used for the purpose of reciting, embodying, conveying, or recording information,
[21:20.740 --> 21:28.720]  or constituting a symbol or evidence of value, right, privilege, or identification, which is capable of being used to the advantage or disadvantage of some person.
[21:29.760 --> 21:39.920]  And Judge Lubau said, a MetroCard is a symbol of value, adding that bending one may constitute an alteration of the written instrument as contemplated by the forgery statute.
[21:43.430 --> 21:43.790]  Unbelievable.
[21:44.510 --> 21:45.410]  So don't do that, then.
[21:45.550 --> 21:46.270]  On this article here.
[21:46.410 --> 21:46.730]  Oh, yeah.
[21:47.890 --> 21:50.630]  Yeah, so that's a deal with MetroCards.
[21:53.530 --> 21:54.110]  Let's see.
[21:54.250 --> 21:55.670]  We have a lot of stories here.
[21:55.730 --> 21:56.610]  We have a lot of phone calls.
[21:56.710 --> 22:04.370]  So what we're going to do is just try to skim through the stories and maybe come back to them if they're of interest later on.
[22:06.470 --> 22:14.070]  Initial rollout of what may eventually become the world's largest silicon repository of personal data could be less than 90 days away.
[22:14.650 --> 22:18.190]  And as you might expect, civil liberties groups are not too happy about that.
[22:18.370 --> 22:33.310]  The Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System 2, otherwise known as CAPS-2, is designed to scan multiple public and private databases for information on individuals traveling into and out of the United States.
[22:33.310 --> 22:40.590]  The system will feed the results to an analysis application that mathematically ranks travelers' potential as security threats.
[22:41.190 --> 22:46.990]  This is a brainchild of the Transportation Department's Transportation Security Administration, TSA.
[22:47.710 --> 22:54.090]  CAPS-2 is a quantum expansion of the current system used to identify potential terrorists attempting to board airplanes.
[22:54.090 --> 23:03.470]  In addition to accessing FBI, the NCIC, which is the National Crime Information Center, and the State Department databases, CAPS-2 is expected to spider...
[23:03.470 --> 23:04.990]  Nice verb there.
[23:05.370 --> 23:12.670]  Expected to spider IRS, Social Security Administration, State Motor Vehicle and Corrections Department, credit bureaus, and bank records.
[23:12.730 --> 23:16.650]  Now, why in the world are they going to check your credit rating when you come into the country?
[23:17.130 --> 23:18.750]  That's really what's going to happen now.
[23:18.970 --> 23:22.570]  And I guess it's going to show up every time, too, if you monitor your credit report.
[23:23.810 --> 23:26.210]  Schedules that go into limited service by the year's end.
[23:26.390 --> 23:32.350]  Its deployment could be delayed if Congress decides to uproot the TSA and replant it in the Homeland Security Department.
[23:32.910 --> 23:48.330]  Though the TSA has stated that people whose records are pockmarked with unpaid parking tickets, unfiled tax returns, and overdue child payment supports have nothing to fear if they're trying to fly from point A to point B, civil liberties advocates aren't so sure.
[23:48.330 --> 23:52.490]  A basic issue in privacy is function creep.
[23:52.750 --> 23:55.170]  That's according to Li Tien from the EFF.
[23:55.610 --> 24:02.870]  Once a surveillance system is put in place for a particular function, for example, aviation security, it can be used for many other functions as well.
[24:03.270 --> 24:08.370]  We've seen this with social security numbers on the government side and, of course, with customer databases on the private side.
[24:08.770 --> 24:18.330]  The trick is to tie this kind of surveillance to some kind of benefit or transaction that large numbers of people must periodically sign up for or renew, like car registration or renewing a driver's license.
[24:18.510 --> 24:19.770]  You don't have to chase people down.
[24:19.950 --> 24:20.790]  They come to you.
[24:21.790 --> 24:34.170]  Tien notes that CAPS-2 also raises back-end issues such as an individual's right to view and correct errors in files and securing the database against hacking by outsiders and misuse by insiders.
[24:35.650 --> 24:48.670]  The power of TSA to systematically process and maintain a central repository of financial, educational, political, family, and other personal info is really, really dangerous.
[24:48.670 --> 24:53.590]  And that's coming in 90 days if nothing happens to stop it.
[24:53.690 --> 25:12.470]  I read a paper written by, I think, some MIT students, I'm not sure, which examined these systems as a kind of theoretical construct and showed that any system you build is actually worse in the case of an organized terrorist cell than the random system.
[25:13.120 --> 25:14.050]  What are you talking about?
[25:14.710 --> 25:18.190]  The random system is the best way to stop terrorists.
[25:18.730 --> 25:23.570]  I mean, randomly stopping people and asking them questions instead of profiling them.
[25:23.570 --> 25:25.090]  Instead of capsizing them.
[25:25.250 --> 25:25.790]  Oh, okay.
[25:27.350 --> 25:29.370]  Well, that would stop me from getting stopped all the time.
[25:30.490 --> 25:31.450]  Always, every time.
[25:32.730 --> 25:34.290]  You're not a terrorist, as far as we know.
[25:34.530 --> 25:36.550]  As far as I know, too, but they seem to know better.
[25:37.370 --> 25:38.290]  All right, let's continue here.
[25:38.470 --> 25:39.790]  Operations Thumbs Up.
[25:40.010 --> 25:40.150]  Yeah.
[25:41.030 --> 25:46.070]  That's the new system that police are asking businesses to voluntarily participate in.
[25:46.430 --> 25:48.850]  It takes customers' fingerprints if they pay by check.
[25:48.970 --> 25:49.250]  Hi.
[25:49.370 --> 25:50.330]  I'm not kidding here.
[25:50.370 --> 25:51.370]  I can't make this stuff up.
[25:52.110 --> 25:55.550]  Operation Thumbs Up, scheduled to begin citywide on Sunday.
[25:55.790 --> 25:56.170]  Wait a minute.
[25:56.370 --> 25:56.910]  What citywide?
[25:56.910 --> 25:57.250]  Wait a minute.
[25:57.330 --> 25:57.590]  You know what?
[25:57.630 --> 25:58.050]  This is old.
[25:58.170 --> 26:00.050]  This was from the beginning of the month.
[26:00.210 --> 26:02.050]  So since we haven't been on for a while...
[26:02.050 --> 26:03.190]  What city is this?
[26:03.770 --> 26:04.490]  This is...
[26:04.490 --> 26:05.010]  Oh, you know what?
[26:05.390 --> 26:06.110]  I read it wrong.
[26:06.190 --> 26:06.330]  I'm sorry.
[26:06.410 --> 26:06.690]  Arlington.
[26:06.890 --> 26:07.510]  Arlington, Virginia.
[26:08.550 --> 26:08.910]  Yeah.
[26:09.110 --> 26:09.370]  Okay.
[26:09.610 --> 26:14.030]  I forgot to mention this is from the Arlington Star-Telegram, but I guess I woke people up in New York.
[26:14.090 --> 26:18.590]  And we do have listeners in Arlington, so I guess they're already awake.
[26:19.030 --> 26:22.890]  The system is similar to those used by banks that require fingerprints on checks.
[26:22.930 --> 26:25.090]  Have you ever used a bank that requires a fingerprint on a check?
[26:25.090 --> 26:26.170]  Yeah, I've heard of them.
[26:26.410 --> 26:28.370]  Have you actually used one, though?
[26:28.510 --> 26:30.830]  I've come very close, but no.
[26:30.910 --> 26:33.470]  But you've never actually had a teller demanded you stick your thumb.
[26:33.470 --> 26:36.490]  Oh, I've had a teller demand that, yes, but I've never actually done that.
[26:37.310 --> 26:39.210]  You told her she could put her thumb instead.
[26:39.350 --> 26:41.130]  Not quite, but the same idea.
[26:41.870 --> 26:46.510]  No longer can we rely on the driver's license as a valid form of identity when passing a check.
[26:46.590 --> 26:46.990]  Oh, great.
[26:47.090 --> 26:50.110]  You know, the guy downstairs now is going to want thumbprints if he hears this.
[26:52.050 --> 26:55.470]  We can't expect clerks to memorize every face in the line.
[26:55.690 --> 27:01.030]  By getting a print, we can place that person when the check was passed to get a successful prosecution.
[27:01.850 --> 27:03.410]  The program was announced on...
[27:05.370 --> 27:09.550]  Okay, according to this, keep in mind, this is early in the month, and this is in Arlington, Virginia.
[27:09.670 --> 27:14.950]  The program was announced on Friday, and if you listen to the beginning of the story, it's scheduled to begin on Sunday.
[27:15.190 --> 27:17.730]  That's not much time for people to feed back on it.
[27:17.830 --> 27:18.870]  And it's also a weekend.
[27:19.790 --> 27:20.310]  Unreal.
[27:20.670 --> 27:25.310]  Police spokeswoman Christy Guilford said the department is considering making the program mandatory.
[27:25.730 --> 27:25.930]  Oh!
[27:27.870 --> 27:29.710]  How can they make it mandatory?
[27:29.990 --> 27:30.910]  Can you pick up Jim off the floor?
[27:31.310 --> 27:32.630]  No, but...
[27:32.630 --> 27:33.830]  Participating stories...
[27:33.830 --> 27:34.190]  No, hold on.
[27:34.910 --> 27:37.230]  Participating stories will be clearly identified to the public.
[27:37.430 --> 27:40.990]  You have the choice of participating by not shopping.
[27:42.190 --> 27:43.130]  I swear, I am...
[27:43.130 --> 27:43.690]  And not taking checks.
[27:44.670 --> 27:45.190]  Employees...
[27:45.190 --> 27:45.510]  Yeah, I know.
[27:45.590 --> 27:47.870]  You're getting the first boat over to Canada or something, right?
[27:48.170 --> 27:48.990]  No, not quite.
[27:49.150 --> 27:56.030]  But I'm never visiting Arlington on purpose, and if, God forbid, I ever take flying lessons and I'm crashing in the neighborhood, I'm aiming for Arlington.
[27:56.030 --> 27:57.870]  I will visit Arlington, but I won't bring my thumb.
[27:59.330 --> 28:00.470]  That's all I'm going to say about that.
[28:00.810 --> 28:02.530]  Employees will be trained to take fingerprints.
[28:03.470 --> 28:07.810]  A series of town hall meetings will be scheduled to explain the program to business owners and the community.
[28:07.910 --> 28:10.810]  Note that they'll be taking place after the program has been instituted.
[28:12.990 --> 28:20.830]  I think most people are not aware of how easy it would be for a person to come into a store, open an account with another person's identity, charge a large amount of merchandise, and return it.
[28:20.930 --> 28:21.910]  Then the merchant has a problem.
[28:22.090 --> 28:24.930]  Oh, I guess the only solution then is to take our fingerprints.
[28:24.930 --> 28:25.510]  You see it now.
[28:25.670 --> 28:33.290]  You go to the blockbuster, okay, and you pay by check and you're renting eyes wide shut and the further adventures...
[28:33.290 --> 28:34.530]  The American version or the European version?
[28:34.590 --> 28:35.670]  That's a check for $3.
[28:37.570 --> 28:42.170]  You rent 30 or 60 things, I don't know, over the course of God knows how long.
[28:42.290 --> 28:43.730]  You get an account, right?
[28:44.170 --> 28:54.590]  And then, of course, 25 years from now when you're 18, 25 or 30 years from now when you're renting for office, they say, as an 18-year-old, you saw all this perverted stuff.
[28:54.910 --> 28:56.110]  This is absurd.
[28:56.310 --> 28:56.850]  This is ridiculous.
[28:57.070 --> 28:57.550]  This is disgusting.
[28:57.850 --> 28:58.510]  I'll stop banging the table.
[28:58.630 --> 28:59.550]  It's bad for the radio station.
[29:00.970 --> 29:11.290]  Pam Dawson, property manager for the Lincoln Square Shopping Center, said seven stores have participated in the program since March and she expects all 88 stores in the center to comply.
[29:11.950 --> 29:15.030]  Our goal is to show we are a safe shopping center.
[29:15.170 --> 29:18.510]  If you're a fraudulent check user, we don't want you to come to Lincoln Square.
[29:18.690 --> 29:20.050]  Oh, and the other shopping centers do.
[29:20.290 --> 29:21.510]  You wanted them to come before?
[29:21.930 --> 29:24.070]  Dawson doesn't expect complaints from customers either.
[29:24.330 --> 29:28.810]  I anticipate if you are not guilty of anything, it's not going to matter to you if someone takes your thumbprint.
[29:31.250 --> 29:32.170]  Oh, yes.
[29:32.290 --> 29:33.430]  That's just brilliant.
[29:33.950 --> 29:34.710]  Ed Meese lives.
[29:36.730 --> 29:37.130]  Okay.
[29:37.450 --> 29:38.570]  We have so many more stories.
[29:38.970 --> 29:39.790]  How are we ever going to...
[29:39.790 --> 29:44.810]  We should compress this show somehow and speak double the speed.
[29:44.970 --> 29:46.750]  You could farm them out and we could, like, alternate.
[29:47.110 --> 29:48.230]  I'll look at all the phone calls.
[29:48.350 --> 29:48.510]  Okay.
[29:48.930 --> 29:57.530]  A secret appellate court has met for the first time in its 24-year history to consider a request from the Justice Department for more power to wiretap suspected terrorists and spies.
[29:57.850 --> 29:59.430]  That's according to department officials.
[29:59.530 --> 30:00.990]  The first time in 24-year...
[30:00.990 --> 30:02.970]  In its 24-year history, so it's the first time ever.
[30:03.190 --> 30:04.790]  The appeals court...
[30:04.790 --> 30:05.050]  Get this.
[30:05.210 --> 30:08.610]  The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review.
[30:08.930 --> 30:10.890]  Didn't we discuss this three weeks ago?
[30:11.190 --> 30:13.630]  I don't think so because this story came out on September 10th.
[30:13.850 --> 30:13.970]  Okay.
[30:14.490 --> 30:17.250]  The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review.
[30:18.010 --> 30:27.230]  They convened in a high security room at the Justice Department in Washington that was on September 9th and they made no announcement of whether they had made a decision.
[30:27.870 --> 30:43.630]  But senators immediately asked the court to publicly release its decision and the arguments Justice Department lawyers made in front of it so lawmakers can know how government prosecutors are using the changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act granted after the September 11th attacks last year.
[30:44.090 --> 30:49.930]  We need to know how this law is being interpreted and applied according to Patrick Leahy Democrat of Vermont.
[30:50.270 --> 30:53.390]  No answer had been received from the Monday request according to the Senate.
[30:53.710 --> 30:54.810]  They just said nothing.
[30:56.450 --> 31:02.710]  Civil liberties groups denounced the secret nature of the court and the court ignored the civil liberties groups.
[31:05.050 --> 31:05.650]  Unreal.
[31:05.650 --> 31:05.770]  Unreal.
[31:07.050 --> 31:11.270]  There's more to that story but let's move on to some other things as well.
[31:12.050 --> 31:14.750]  Imagine being watched from the moment you get behind the wheel.
[31:14.990 --> 31:21.290]  Every glance is tracked and every blink monitored with your car warning you before you are going to have an accident.
[31:22.070 --> 31:28.430]  This is now possible thanks to a system that studies the human face to detect fatigue or distraction and then alerts the driver.
[31:28.670 --> 31:37.530]  The Facelab system that's right Facelab recently won one of Australia's most prestigious scientific awards the Eureka Prize for Innovation and Technology.
[31:37.930 --> 31:40.210]  Facelab has been developed seeing...
[31:40.210 --> 31:43.230]  has been developed using seeing machines.
[31:43.570 --> 31:48.030]  An international team of 20 scientists based at Australian National University in Canberra.
[31:48.630 --> 31:55.410]  And since 1996 they have been developing Facelab a system that tracks and monitors car drivers by cameras mounted on the dashboard.
[31:57.390 --> 31:58.030]  Unbelievable.
[31:58.590 --> 32:10.170]  We use two cameras that give us an offset from your face which gives us 3D depth perception they say and a car can detect if there is some abnormality in how the car is being driven or not being driven safely.
[32:12.370 --> 32:15.570]  I'm sure there's all kinds of ways this can be abused as well.
[32:15.690 --> 32:20.750]  Well that's fine as long as there's not a permanent record and it's not broadcast to the authorities.
[32:20.990 --> 32:22.450]  What's going to determine that there is not?
[32:23.210 --> 32:24.010]  Someone's trust?
[32:24.330 --> 32:24.470]  You know?
[32:24.890 --> 32:25.230]  I mean...
[32:25.230 --> 32:27.390]  If the system is there it can be abused.
[32:27.610 --> 32:28.750]  Well that's true of any system.
[32:28.750 --> 32:36.850]  Maybe Americans will get offended by the system and realize that those of us who don't drive like already our movements are tracked by the MetroCard machine.
[32:37.070 --> 32:38.190]  Yeah but not the way you look.
[32:38.430 --> 32:39.930]  There's not a camera on you the whole time.
[32:40.390 --> 32:45.370]  It says here the system could also turn into an automotive big brother capable of deciding whether or not you are fit to drive.
[32:45.850 --> 32:46.330]  I mean...
[32:46.330 --> 32:48.930]  I guess if you have a warrant for you it will decide you're not fit to drive.
[32:48.990 --> 32:51.850]  There's cameras in many buses around the country.
[32:52.050 --> 32:54.050]  Yeah but they don't focus on every individual passenger.
[32:54.650 --> 32:54.950]  You know?
[32:55.030 --> 32:55.990]  That would be kind of...
[32:55.990 --> 32:56.410]  Can you imagine?
[32:56.510 --> 32:56.650]  Okay.
[32:56.650 --> 32:57.910]  They're doing this now.
[32:58.070 --> 33:00.370]  They're doing this for airline waiting rooms.
[33:00.490 --> 33:03.650]  They're focusing on people and looking for disturbing signs.
[33:04.070 --> 33:06.090]  People that might be suspicious or might be nervous.
[33:06.250 --> 33:07.850]  Nervous in an airport waiting room.
[33:07.910 --> 33:08.310]  Imagine that.
[33:09.330 --> 33:12.690]  Imagine having a camera like that on people in a bus.
[33:12.910 --> 33:13.670]  Every single person.
[33:13.790 --> 33:14.810]  Does this person have a bus bomb?
[33:14.910 --> 33:16.310]  Is this person plotting something?
[33:16.410 --> 33:17.550]  Is this person laid on his taxes?
[33:17.750 --> 33:18.430]  Who knows?
[33:18.810 --> 33:19.070]  You know?
[33:19.150 --> 33:20.870]  You have to have these things to protect society.
[33:21.390 --> 33:21.810]  And now...
[33:21.810 --> 33:23.090]  That would be a bad idea.
[33:23.230 --> 33:27.350]  It would be a bad idea but I'm sure these are ideas that are being thought of by people other than us.
[33:28.750 --> 33:32.430]  So having this, yeah, it might do some good.
[33:32.590 --> 33:34.330]  It might prevent accidents, but it could also be abused.
[33:34.410 --> 33:38.430]  And every part of technology, and that's what we're here for, can be abused.
[33:38.490 --> 33:39.250]  We're not here to abuse it.
[33:39.330 --> 33:43.370]  We're here to tell you how it can be abused and to brainstorm and think of ways.
[33:44.890 --> 33:45.330]  Okay.
[33:46.710 --> 33:47.470]  Here's a warning.
[33:48.210 --> 33:54.070]  Airliners could be brought down by terrorists using modified versions of almost any personal electronic equipment.
[33:54.310 --> 33:55.930]  That's according to a security expert.
[33:56.130 --> 34:01.970]  He says passengers should be barred from carrying any electronic gadgets onto aircraft until planes are able to detect them.
[34:02.390 --> 34:13.210]  Simple modifications to everyday electronic gadgets could bring down airplanes, such as radios, tape recorders, CD players, PDAs, laptop computers, and it's all invisible.
[34:13.830 --> 34:21.430]  While it's been known for some time that cell phones and laptops can cause low-level interference, no airline monitors such radio emissions during flight.
[34:21.550 --> 34:26.550]  Instead, they rely on passengers turning off their devices during critical periods, such as takeoff and landing.
[34:28.050 --> 34:36.550]  According to this guy, who is named Chet Uber, at the Infowar conference in Washington, D.C.
[34:36.650 --> 34:44.150]  earlier in the month, he said the renewed terrorist threat means we should take seriously the possibility someone might intentionally interfere with the plane's instruments.
[34:44.470 --> 34:54.530]  Currently, if any device being used by a passenger disturbs the normal operation of a plane, pilots have no monitoring system to tell whether that problem is due to interference or a malfunction.
[34:54.790 --> 34:59.210]  And this leaves aircraft wide open to attack from a device operated by a passenger.
[34:59.810 --> 35:06.870]  He says a terrorist with a basic knowledge of electronics could modify the circuitry and many common gadgets to create an electromagnetic weapon.
[35:07.950 --> 35:08.730]  Electromagnetic weapons.
[35:09.950 --> 35:10.450]  What?
[35:10.930 --> 35:11.550]  Are you done?
[35:11.810 --> 35:12.670]  Yeah, pretty much.
[35:12.830 --> 35:13.370]  I mean, I'm not done.
[35:13.450 --> 35:14.770]  It's more of the story, but that's all I've done.
[35:14.770 --> 35:17.810]  The point is that banning the devices will do nothing.
[35:17.970 --> 35:38.450]  You then just put something in your hairdryer, in your luggage, with a timer, and send false GPS information, you know, and when you're going over the mountains, all of a sudden it tells that the altitude you have to be at is 12,000, where actually you have to miss Pike's Peak at 14,000
[35:38.450 --> 35:39.450]  and you hit Pike's Peak.
[35:39.450 --> 35:40.570]  I mean, really?
[35:40.750 --> 35:41.090]  Come on.
[35:41.170 --> 35:41.990]  This is absurd.
[35:42.190 --> 35:47.350]  This is guarding against something that is so damn unlikely as to be ridiculous.
[35:47.630 --> 35:50.610]  But now that we've talked about it, now that it's out in the open, maybe it is more likely.
[35:50.830 --> 35:51.910]  Yes, I do agree with that.
[35:51.990 --> 35:53.650]  So how do you protect against something like that?
[35:53.810 --> 35:56.110]  There are some things you simply cannot protect against.
[35:56.970 --> 36:02.130]  I think there's a way of protecting against them, but without going crazy and closing off all access.
[36:02.310 --> 36:02.990]  Let me put it to you.
[36:03.030 --> 36:07.950]  It says that there is no way of figuring out where a particular signal is coming from.
[36:07.990 --> 36:08.750]  Well, that could be fixed.
[36:08.750 --> 36:14.810]  You can say, oh, this person in seat 3B is transmitting like 4,000 watts to some base station somewhere.
[36:15.030 --> 36:18.630]  And that's, you know, that's got to be able to be detected somehow.
[36:18.830 --> 36:18.990]  Right.
[36:19.110 --> 36:22.250]  And then you override it or you switch to another frequency or do something.
[36:22.250 --> 36:27.510]  You have ways of outsmarting it and ways of detecting it so you know when it's a threat.
[36:27.670 --> 36:28.430]  But yeah, you're right.
[36:28.490 --> 36:33.050]  I mean, we have all this, you know, we're thinking of possible ways that somebody could do something.
[36:33.270 --> 36:49.470]  I remember, I guess it was sometime last year, shortly after nine 11, some crazy newscast came on saying that, did you know that your upstairs neighbor could be filling his entire apartment with explosives and then blowing it up and taking your entire apartment building down with it?
[36:49.570 --> 36:57.750]  How do you, how do you possibly counter something like that other than demanding that anybody who looks suspicious get searched immediately and have their apartment gone through?
[36:58.250 --> 37:02.270]  I mean, yeah, you know, anything is possible, but what is likely?
[37:02.710 --> 37:08.250]  And what are, what are the ways of, of detecting problems that aren't, uh, completely contrary to the way we live?
[37:08.530 --> 37:14.450]  If we guard against every threat, number one, we will be mean, dispirited, uh, people unworthy of living.
[37:14.570 --> 37:16.250]  And number two, we will be bankrupt.
[37:16.930 --> 37:17.290]  I mean...
[37:17.290 --> 37:17.470]  Absolutely.
[37:17.710 --> 37:18.650]  And it won't be worse.
[37:18.730 --> 37:21.470]  I mean, walking down Wall Street, it angers me every time.
[37:21.470 --> 37:23.190]  You can't walk down Wall Street anymore.
[37:23.310 --> 37:24.270]  They have it barricaded.
[37:24.370 --> 37:30.450]  They have everybody herded onto one narrow sidewalk and all the rest of the street is, is closed off.
[37:30.550 --> 37:31.390]  But God knows why.
[37:31.750 --> 37:35.670]  I guess they figure somebody could get close to there with a, with a bomb or something like that and blow it up.
[37:35.970 --> 37:38.810]  I wish somebody would hijack a tank and just roll it over.
[37:39.010 --> 37:41.850]  Well, that would, that would, I don't think that would convince many people.
[37:42.170 --> 37:42.390]  No, it would.
[37:42.410 --> 37:44.970]  It would convince them that the barricades weren't strong enough, unfortunately.
[37:45.010 --> 37:46.170]  Then they built something even stronger.
[37:46.290 --> 37:51.070]  But the point is, again, we're being told to live our lives normally and all this crap is going on around us.
[37:51.230 --> 37:53.970]  You know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a fortress out there.
[37:54.170 --> 37:57.430]  I mean, yeah, the car bombs, they could, they could go to our individual houses then.
[37:57.730 --> 37:59.830]  Are we supposed to put barricades up around our individual houses?
[37:59.990 --> 38:00.510]  It's silly.
[38:00.790 --> 38:01.310]  You haven't?
[38:01.870 --> 38:03.190]  No, I haven't gotten around to it yet.
[38:03.190 --> 38:03.630]  I've been busy.
[38:05.930 --> 38:07.010]  Yeah, there's risk.
[38:07.130 --> 38:12.790]  There's risk every day, but it's part of the free society thing, you know?
[38:15.430 --> 38:15.930]  All right.
[38:16.590 --> 38:18.490]  Let's get to computers a little bit.
[38:19.010 --> 38:21.830]  And I guess, I guess we should get the phone calls too.
[38:21.910 --> 38:22.990]  There's a lot of other stories I want to get to.
[38:23.930 --> 38:25.170]  Microsoft's flagship word processors.
[38:25.230 --> 38:25.690]  You hear about this?
[38:25.870 --> 38:31.410]  They have a security flaw that could allow the theft of computer files by bugging a document with a hidden code.
[38:31.410 --> 38:33.290]  Yeah, the company disclosed this.
[38:33.610 --> 38:40.030]  It was exploring how to fix the problem and whether to extend the repair to older versions of the software still used by millions.
[38:40.970 --> 38:46.130]  According to Microsoft, Word 97 is most susceptible to the attack.
[38:46.430 --> 38:50.210]  And Microsoft said it's, it's policy to no longer repair Word 97.
[38:50.990 --> 38:56.170]  But they're getting so many phone calls and letters that they're re-exploring that particular thing.
[38:56.670 --> 39:05.090]  The flaw involving Word 97 was discovered by Alex Gantman of cellular phone company Quelcom and was released on the internet last month.
[39:05.190 --> 39:12.630]  An attacker only has to place hidden codes in a Word document, which is then sent to a would-be victim with a request for a response.
[39:12.790 --> 39:21.770]  If the recipient has Word 97 and revises the Word document, any file sought by the attacker will be hidden inside the Word document and sent back to the attacker.
[39:22.050 --> 39:23.830]  I don't know if it works for wildcards.
[39:24.030 --> 39:24.550]  It would be kind of interesting.
[39:24.690 --> 39:25.630]  I've read this.
[39:25.910 --> 39:28.450]  Supposedly, you have to know the exact address of the file.
[39:29.350 --> 39:29.790]  Okay.
[39:30.130 --> 39:38.970]  Well, that, that narrows down a bit, but inside corporate America, where everybody uses the same kind of software and has the same kind of file structure, it's probably a lot more risky than to us individuals.
[39:39.610 --> 39:49.190]  If the intended target uses Word 2000 or 2002, the most recent versions, the attack will only work if the Word document is printed first before a reply goes out to the attacker.
[39:50.390 --> 39:57.570]  So Microsoft says that in both security flaws, an attacker would have to know the exact file name, okay, to be stolen and its location.
[39:57.570 --> 40:04.670]  But many critical files, an address book or saved emails, for example, are used in obvious or predictable places on every Microsoft Windows computer.
[40:05.290 --> 40:07.530]  Gee whiz, yet another argument against Microsoft.
[40:07.790 --> 40:12.150]  And their attitude towards fixing this is, I think, checkmate as far as that goes.
[40:12.330 --> 40:15.950]  It should be pointed out that there's a worm running around now.
[40:16.150 --> 40:16.670]  What, on the table?
[40:16.970 --> 40:17.210]  No.
[40:17.970 --> 40:19.490]  You're gesturing like there's something on the table.
[40:19.490 --> 40:20.370]  Yeah, I always gesture.
[40:20.410 --> 40:20.630]  Okay.
[40:21.250 --> 40:24.230]  That affects Apache SSL servers.
[40:24.650 --> 40:24.890]  Ooh.
[40:25.390 --> 40:26.050]  Yeah, yeah.
[40:26.090 --> 40:27.270]  I think I heard about that.
[40:27.370 --> 40:30.170]  So, in all cases, vigilance is required.
[40:30.230 --> 40:31.030]  Nothing is sacred anymore.
[40:32.350 --> 40:38.310]  The inventor of DNA fingerprinting believes every citizen's genetic information should be stored on the UK National Register.
[40:41.370 --> 40:43.890]  Those damn Brits, they're damn presumptuous.
[40:44.090 --> 40:48.890]  This would solve the problem of some individuals being listed even if they have been cleared of committing a crime.
[40:49.150 --> 40:53.790]  If we're all in the database, if we're all in exactly the same boat, the issue of discrimination disappears.
[40:55.690 --> 40:57.110]  I'd like to read more of that, too.
[40:59.590 --> 41:00.310]  Let's see.
[41:00.570 --> 41:03.750]  We have a couple of letters from people.
[41:03.850 --> 41:10.230]  This person, actually a number of people, wrote in to tell us about the Mac OS Homeland Security Warning Level Program.
[41:11.690 --> 41:12.530]  Yeah, it's true.
[41:12.530 --> 41:16.870]  So, it basically stays on your screen and tells you if the color changes.
[41:17.230 --> 41:17.950]  Now, everyone's into it.
[41:18.030 --> 41:18.790]  Everyone's into it now.
[41:18.790 --> 41:19.790]  I wanted to do this month ago.
[41:19.790 --> 41:21.030]  They've done what you wanted to do.
[41:21.130 --> 41:22.010]  How do they know?
[41:22.130 --> 41:22.890]  Software page...
[41:22.890 --> 41:23.090]  I don't know.
[41:23.190 --> 41:26.190]  I guess there's now pages that update it a lot more frequently.
[41:26.990 --> 41:32.110]  HTTP colon slash slash www.exit2shell.com slash products.
[41:32.370 --> 41:33.070]  You'll see it there.
[41:33.190 --> 41:35.430]  It works only on Mac OS X.
[41:35.750 --> 41:39.330]  I'm sure you can make one for Windows or for Linux or all kinds of other things.
[41:41.970 --> 41:42.630]  Do it.
[41:42.710 --> 41:44.470]  Send it to us and we'll publicize it.
[41:45.830 --> 41:45.990]  Yeah.
[41:46.350 --> 41:49.950]  Now, web filters have been installed in schools all over the place.
[41:51.210 --> 41:54.410]  And a lot of people have been surprised by that as the new school year has begun.
[41:55.250 --> 42:00.910]  Schools had to install filters by the new school year that was in order to get federal funding.
[42:01.470 --> 42:05.770]  But it's resulted in all kinds of problems.
[42:05.770 --> 42:11.330]  Basically, Congress required it of schools that receive certain technology grants.
[42:11.710 --> 42:15.610]  And millions of dollars are at stake here.
[42:17.450 --> 42:24.330]  But they've been blocking up to 70% of requests of students.
[42:25.150 --> 42:31.350]  And some of them are quite legitimate requests having to do with things that they're looking up for research.
[42:33.650 --> 42:34.570]  Filters are imperfect.
[42:34.750 --> 42:37.470]  Give parents and students a sense of security that really is not there.
[42:37.930 --> 42:39.210]  It sounds very familiar.
[42:41.210 --> 42:43.710]  We'll get more detail in later weeks on that.
[42:44.950 --> 42:45.430]  You know what?
[42:45.430 --> 42:46.250]  I'm just going to go to the phones.
[42:46.550 --> 42:47.230]  It's just too much.
[42:47.370 --> 42:50.370]  We could easily go the whole rest of the hour on just the stories alone.
[42:51.590 --> 42:53.630]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[42:53.810 --> 43:01.530]  If you have feedback, questions, comments, suggestions, that kind of thing, please let us know what they are.
[43:02.010 --> 43:04.170]  Keep your remarks as brief as possible.
[43:04.390 --> 43:06.630]  And that way, more people will be able to get in.
[43:07.590 --> 43:08.670]  Let's pick a number.
[43:08.910 --> 43:09.370]  Good evening.
[43:09.510 --> 43:10.670]  You're on Off the Hook.
[43:11.190 --> 43:11.570]  Yes.
[43:12.470 --> 43:13.770]  I'd just like to mention...
[43:13.770 --> 43:15.970]  You've been sitting around for three weeks waiting to do this, haven't you?
[43:16.090 --> 43:16.350]  Yeah.
[43:16.610 --> 43:19.310]  You know, I don't have to shut my alarm clock anymore at home.
[43:19.310 --> 43:19.950]  Why?
[43:20.150 --> 43:21.870]  You know, no, he's progressing.
[43:21.910 --> 43:23.070]  It's part of evolution.
[43:24.010 --> 43:27.350]  And the next update from Rebel will take place in hopefully a few weeks.
[43:27.670 --> 43:29.410]  We'll find out what else he's learned to do.
[43:29.790 --> 43:30.270]  Good evening.
[43:30.370 --> 43:30.870]  You're on the air.
[43:32.470 --> 43:33.150]  Speak up, please.
[43:33.330 --> 43:33.590]  Oh, hi.
[43:33.590 --> 43:33.990]  How are you?
[43:34.190 --> 43:34.370]  Good.
[43:34.410 --> 43:34.650]  How are you?
[43:34.910 --> 43:35.250]  I'm good.
[43:35.690 --> 43:36.650]  Enjoy your show very much.
[43:36.710 --> 43:37.190]  Thank you very much.
[43:37.290 --> 43:39.890]  I made a comment about airplanes crashing into buildings.
[43:40.070 --> 43:40.430]  Oh, yeah.
[43:40.490 --> 43:40.690]  Okay.
[43:41.190 --> 43:42.330]  I hate to put it so like that.
[43:42.450 --> 43:42.650]  Yeah.
[43:42.670 --> 43:43.250]  No, I understand.
[43:43.510 --> 43:48.650]  A few months ago, Rumsfeld and Ms. Rice both testified and said they were, quote, shocked.
[43:48.650 --> 43:51.350]  Shocked, I tell you, that airplanes were crashing into buildings.
[43:51.530 --> 43:52.910]  We'd never heard of that before.
[43:53.050 --> 43:54.170]  It's a complete mystery to us.
[43:54.570 --> 43:55.170]  That's what they said.
[43:55.270 --> 43:58.530]  That was publicly spoken and written about in the Times, out of the papers.
[43:58.890 --> 43:59.950]  What was the complete mystery?
[44:00.530 --> 44:05.970]  They hadn't heard of this scenario of airplanes being used as bombs.
[44:05.970 --> 44:09.090]  We could come up, in an hour, we could probably come up with a hundred scenarios.
[44:09.090 --> 44:12.990]  What I want to say to you is they're lying through their proverbial teeth.
[44:13.310 --> 44:20.290]  On 9-11 itself, the CIA was conducting tests that had a drill about planes going into buildings.
[44:20.470 --> 44:23.510]  And this scenario has been around for years and years and years.
[44:23.670 --> 44:34.230]  To have these two titans of integrity testifying and lying through their teeth, they're never ever being caught or even called out by anyone in the Senate is beyond belief to me.
[44:34.230 --> 44:35.410]  And it goes on constantly.
[44:36.310 --> 44:37.910]  And it's very disheartening.
[44:38.450 --> 44:41.690]  And we obviously are going to probably blow up Saddam Hussein for no reason whatsoever.
[44:42.870 --> 44:44.830]  Well, that's an interesting thing right there.
[44:44.970 --> 44:48.370]  I mean, basically, we were demanding...
[44:48.370 --> 44:50.870]  By we, I mean the people that allegedly represent us.
[44:51.130 --> 44:55.010]  We were demanding all of this response from Iraq.
[44:55.010 --> 44:59.270]  We were saying that we have to get the inspectors back.
[44:59.290 --> 45:00.270]  And they agree.
[45:00.270 --> 45:02.250]  And then we say, oh, it's not about the inspectors.
[45:02.250 --> 45:04.390]  It's about disarming, and we're going to bomb you anyway.
[45:05.270 --> 45:07.190]  What is it going to take, you know?
[45:07.530 --> 45:09.550]  Well, I'll get off real fast.
[45:09.690 --> 45:14.010]  When he was put in office by Scalia, they say the man has no mandate.
[45:14.150 --> 45:15.850]  He can't do anything he wants to do.
[45:15.930 --> 45:18.170]  Well, the fact is these guys don't need a mandate.
[45:18.470 --> 45:19.910]  They have taken over the country.
[45:20.310 --> 45:23.410]  They control our military and our monetary system.
[45:23.410 --> 45:25.950]  And they are absolutely frightening people.
[45:26.370 --> 45:28.170]  I want Nixon back.
[45:28.750 --> 45:30.150]  Give me Joe McCarthy.
[45:30.270 --> 45:31.770]  That's quite a statement.
[45:32.030 --> 45:32.570]  Oh, think about it.
[45:32.770 --> 45:32.970]  Well, yeah.
[45:33.690 --> 45:40.690]  Well, I was thinking before that this will go down in history as the administration that does whatever it wants to whoever it wants, whenever it wants.
[45:41.010 --> 45:44.210]  The 1950s neocon right-wing crazies, and there's nothing.
[45:44.570 --> 45:46.350]  We don't have any Democrats.
[45:47.110 --> 45:48.990]  Daschle wants to vote before the election.
[45:49.110 --> 45:49.850]  He thinks it's swell.
[45:50.410 --> 45:52.090]  We don't have any variety, period.
[45:52.390 --> 45:52.530]  No.
[45:52.850 --> 45:53.210]  Anywhere.
[45:53.390 --> 45:55.150]  Democrats are not the answer, believe me.
[45:55.270 --> 45:57.150]  The whole system is crazy.
[45:57.430 --> 45:59.150]  Well, how about someone standing up like Scott Ritter did, just opening their mouth?
[45:59.290 --> 46:00.110]  That wouldn't be a bad...
[46:00.110 --> 46:03.190]  I've watched Scott Ritter, and he says some very interesting things.
[46:03.190 --> 46:07.990]  He's a former weapons inspector that is now calling for us not to be bombing them.
[46:08.390 --> 46:10.090]  And, yeah, everything he says is right.
[46:10.270 --> 46:11.170]  He scares me, though.
[46:11.170 --> 46:11.650]  He's a Marine.
[46:12.050 --> 46:14.930]  I always have the feeling he's going to go crazy and kill everybody in the room.
[46:15.310 --> 46:16.690]  But, no, the guy makes a lot of sense.
[46:16.790 --> 46:17.970]  But that is to his veracity.
[46:18.090 --> 46:18.470]  He was.
[46:18.610 --> 46:19.630]  He also voted for Bush.
[46:19.850 --> 46:20.330]  Uh-huh.
[46:20.930 --> 46:22.490]  Yeah, and he's mad as hell right now.
[46:22.590 --> 46:22.850]  I can tell.
[46:23.070 --> 46:25.490]  And there's not one elected representative that has said boo.
[46:25.870 --> 46:26.210]  Mm-hmm.
[46:26.350 --> 46:27.650]  He's it, and he's unelected.
[46:28.190 --> 46:29.230]  No, that explains that.
[46:29.330 --> 46:29.830]  Thanks for the call.
[46:29.930 --> 46:30.310]  You're welcome.
[46:30.510 --> 46:30.750]  All right.
[46:31.130 --> 46:32.550]  212-209-2900.
[46:32.690 --> 46:34.030]  Let's go up here.
[46:34.130 --> 46:34.390]  Good evening.
[46:34.490 --> 46:34.990]  You're on the air.
[46:36.570 --> 46:37.090]  Speak up.
[46:37.350 --> 46:37.810]  Yes, go ahead.
[46:39.610 --> 46:40.850]  I can barely hear you.
[46:41.830 --> 46:43.850]  I wanted to comment on the aircraft issue.
[46:44.150 --> 46:44.690]  Okay, go ahead.
[46:44.770 --> 46:45.650]  Sounds like you're in an aircraft.
[46:46.350 --> 46:47.310]  That's besides the point.
[46:47.310 --> 46:47.610]  Okay.
[46:48.230 --> 46:48.710]  Okay.
[46:48.710 --> 46:52.730]  Don't worry, there's a shield of cable because of all the cross talk in the air in the aircraft.
[46:53.510 --> 46:58.190]  And all this is going to fiber optic, which is too much immune to EMI.
[47:06.330 --> 47:13.470]  I don't think I could have said that better myself, but technology hasn't yet reached that phone.
[47:15.190 --> 47:17.830]  I'm going to listen to it again, though, later, and figure it out.
[47:17.950 --> 47:18.190]  Good evening.
[47:18.290 --> 47:18.550]  You're on the air.
[47:18.570 --> 47:19.390]  Good morning at night.
[47:19.410 --> 47:19.790]  Oh, please.
[47:20.010 --> 47:20.350]  Stop that.
[47:20.450 --> 47:20.750]  Good evening.
[47:20.850 --> 47:21.390]  You're on the air.
[47:22.790 --> 47:23.230]  Go ahead.
[47:23.330 --> 47:23.490]  Speak.
[47:25.290 --> 47:25.770]  Good evening.
[47:25.990 --> 47:26.190]  Hi.
[47:26.250 --> 47:26.590]  How are you?
[47:27.090 --> 47:27.410]  Hi.
[47:28.390 --> 47:30.090]  I'd just like to...
[47:30.550 --> 47:31.310]  Where are you calling from?
[47:31.970 --> 47:32.290]  UK.
[47:32.630 --> 47:32.870]  UK.
[47:33.110 --> 47:33.310]  Great.
[47:33.470 --> 47:34.490]  Yeah, I listen via the internet.
[47:34.850 --> 47:35.130]  Wow.
[47:35.310 --> 47:36.910]  It's like one o'clock in the morning over there, isn't it?
[47:37.070 --> 47:38.270]  Yeah, it's ten to one over there.
[47:38.270 --> 47:38.690]  Ten to one.
[47:38.850 --> 47:39.070]  Wow.
[47:40.670 --> 47:41.370]  What's on your mind?
[47:42.630 --> 47:46.050]  You should turn off the computer because you're going to get confused because there's like a minute delay.
[47:47.390 --> 47:47.670]  Yeah.
[47:47.890 --> 47:48.130]  Okay.
[47:48.150 --> 47:48.930]  I'll turn my sound off.
[47:51.410 --> 47:55.390]  Yeah, I just wanted to say that it's good you're back on the air.
[47:55.390 --> 47:56.450]  I haven't missed you the last couple of weeks.
[47:56.550 --> 47:57.170]  I listen regularly.
[47:57.170 --> 47:58.910]  Oh, it's good to hear listeners again.
[47:59.630 --> 48:00.030]  Yeah.
[48:00.930 --> 48:02.970]  It's lonely not doing the show, you know.
[48:03.170 --> 48:10.170]  I tried ringing in when you weren't on last week to ask what happened and I got absolutely nowhere with the person I spoke to.
[48:11.310 --> 48:17.650]  I was told I'd get put through to the program director and I got mailboxes full and it hung up on me.
[48:17.650 --> 48:19.770]  But yeah, I know the feeling.
[48:21.130 --> 48:28.210]  And again, you know, I don't want to say anything personally against anybody or second guess the programming in any way because everybody here is doing the best they can.
[48:28.370 --> 48:37.010]  But sometimes I think, sometimes I think that the message, the things that we're talking about are kind of cast aside and not taken as seriously as they should be.
[48:37.130 --> 48:38.390]  These are very serious issues.
[48:38.610 --> 48:44.830]  And while, yeah, we like to play around technology and have fun and that kind of thing, it's not a carefree hour by any means.
[48:44.930 --> 48:49.750]  We have a lot of serious business to undertake and it's just very frustrating.
[48:50.210 --> 48:53.830]  You know, we moved to Wednesdays a few months ago.
[48:53.990 --> 48:55.430]  Since then, we've been preempted three times.
[48:55.530 --> 48:57.370]  That's like 25% of the time we've been preempted.
[48:57.450 --> 49:01.650]  It's hard enough to bring the audience over to a new day, let alone when things...
[49:01.650 --> 49:08.190]  I mean, basically, that's what happens to TV shows on major networks when they're going to be canceled because they're moved all over the place.
[49:08.270 --> 49:09.490]  Nobody knows when to watch them.
[49:09.530 --> 49:10.450]  That's what happened to Futurama.
[49:10.490 --> 49:12.210]  We're the Futurama of WBAI.
[49:12.290 --> 49:12.910]  That's what it is.
[49:13.370 --> 49:20.690]  And I don't want to wind up the same way as that show, which hopefully will be saved.
[49:22.450 --> 49:23.990]  But is there anything else on your mind?
[49:24.190 --> 49:27.650]  Yeah, there was something that amazed me, actually, something you said at the beginning of the show.
[49:28.390 --> 49:28.790]  Okay.
[49:28.950 --> 49:31.570]  Hackers being number three on the FBI list.
[49:31.650 --> 49:31.930]  Mm-hmm.
[49:32.850 --> 49:34.990]  That just seems amazing, that just to me.
[49:35.310 --> 49:36.290]  Well, it's because...
[49:36.290 --> 49:37.750]  It seems unbelievable, that.
[49:37.910 --> 49:40.050]  It's because they do not understand the technology.
[49:40.050 --> 49:43.350]  They think that anybody with a computer who knows more than they do is a threat.
[49:43.350 --> 49:45.170]  And that's most of the world, probably.
[49:45.650 --> 49:45.810]  Yeah.
[49:46.190 --> 49:51.790]  And it's basically, it comes from closed-mindedness, not listening, and fear.
[49:51.970 --> 49:53.370]  A lot of fear, a lot of hostility.
[49:54.010 --> 49:54.230]  Yeah.
[49:54.230 --> 49:55.050]  And a lot of power, too.
[49:55.170 --> 49:56.970]  They have power to implement whatever they want.
[49:57.330 --> 49:57.670]  Mm-hmm.
[49:57.730 --> 50:02.490]  So we have got to educate ourselves, or it's going to be very unpleasant, not just for us, but for everybody.
[50:02.630 --> 50:03.130]  When all these...
[50:03.130 --> 50:08.670]  I mean, there's a pile of more stories here I haven't gotten to tonight of similar things that we've been talking about.
[50:09.050 --> 50:09.110]  Yeah.
[50:09.110 --> 50:09.270]  Yeah.
[50:09.270 --> 50:15.890]  Logical advances, or changes, or ways that we're going to be more secure, and actually have our privacy invaded even more.
[50:17.150 --> 50:17.330]  Yeah.
[50:17.410 --> 50:20.990]  I mean, I bought the, what's it, Freedom Downtime off your website.
[50:21.350 --> 50:21.830]  Oh, yeah?
[50:22.030 --> 50:22.610]  A while ago.
[50:22.750 --> 50:23.010]  Uh-huh.
[50:23.510 --> 50:24.870]  And I've watched that a couple of times.
[50:25.410 --> 50:26.170]  Yeah, that tells...
[50:26.170 --> 50:29.910]  You know, in fact, Kevin Mitnick has a book that's going to be coming out next month.
[50:30.170 --> 50:30.450]  All right.
[50:30.690 --> 50:31.810]  All about social engineering.
[50:31.970 --> 50:32.470]  It's fascinating.
[50:32.590 --> 50:34.530]  I'm reading it now, and it's absolutely fascinating.
[50:34.530 --> 50:37.090]  He's going to be on the show at some point, talking about it.
[50:37.090 --> 50:37.930]  I hope it'll be good.
[50:38.110 --> 50:43.990]  Yeah, and that's something to look forward to, because it's not one of these superficial guides.
[50:44.130 --> 50:51.990]  It's very specific and very educational, and I can hardly wait until it's out, which will be next month.
[50:52.310 --> 50:52.530]  Hmm.
[50:53.410 --> 50:55.490]  Yeah, I've been catching up a bit on the back catalogue.
[50:55.690 --> 50:56.010]  Uh-huh.
[50:56.550 --> 50:59.110]  I've downloaded the entire back catalogue off the website now.
[50:59.290 --> 50:59.970]  Of Off the Hook?
[51:00.150 --> 51:00.370]  Yeah.
[51:00.670 --> 51:01.710]  Great, yeah, the entire...
[51:01.710 --> 51:04.470]  I've been catching up on it, and up to the 1991 shows, isn't it?
[51:05.230 --> 51:08.410]  Since 1988, we've been putting all the shows up online.
[51:08.710 --> 51:09.110]  Yeah, the first one.
[51:09.110 --> 51:10.710]  The first one was quite entertaining.
[51:10.910 --> 51:11.190]  Uh-huh.
[51:11.550 --> 51:11.910]  With you.
[51:13.530 --> 51:14.870]  Ten-way phone call.
[51:15.090 --> 51:18.390]  Yeah, we had a teleconference with ten different people at the same time.
[51:18.850 --> 51:21.750]  Yeah, I think you'll see the mood has changed over the years.
[51:23.050 --> 51:28.090]  We still try to have fun, but it's also gotten a lot more serious as far as the things that are happening.
[51:28.490 --> 51:28.630]  Yeah.
[51:28.630 --> 51:37.810]  Back then, people weren't going to prison for, you know, for logging into computers that didn't belong to them, and there wasn't all this craziness in the air.
[51:38.070 --> 51:40.430]  And now it's... you literally don't know what's going to happen next.
[51:40.430 --> 51:44.730]  Well, it was just sort of the beginning of that, because you were talking to some people about that sort of thing.
[51:44.930 --> 51:45.190]  Uh-huh.
[51:45.970 --> 51:47.790]  I'm one of the ones I was listening to, so...
[51:47.790 --> 51:48.050]  Yeah.
[51:48.630 --> 51:49.990]  Well, listen, we're going to move on to some more phone call.
[51:50.030 --> 51:50.990]  What part of the UK are you in?
[51:51.370 --> 51:52.290]  I'm in England.
[51:52.830 --> 51:53.390]  Okay, great.
[51:53.990 --> 51:54.290]  All right.
[51:54.330 --> 51:55.950]  I hope to make it over there again sometime soon.
[51:56.130 --> 51:56.890]  Okay, thanks a lot.
[51:57.010 --> 51:57.690]  All right, take care.
[51:59.090 --> 51:59.450]  Great.
[51:59.570 --> 52:00.690]  Getting calls from all over the world.
[52:01.810 --> 52:09.750]  212-209-2900, I guess I should say, if you're outside the country, it's country code one, but I think everybody knows that except us, us being U.S.
[52:09.810 --> 52:10.070]  citizens.
[52:10.170 --> 52:10.410]  Good evening.
[52:10.470 --> 52:10.870]  You're on the air.
[52:11.630 --> 52:11.870]  Hi.
[52:11.970 --> 52:12.530]  How are you doing?
[52:12.630 --> 52:12.730]  Good.
[52:12.750 --> 52:12.970]  How are you?
[52:13.710 --> 52:14.070]  Good.
[52:14.070 --> 52:15.070]  I love your show.
[52:15.350 --> 52:15.930]  Well, thanks.
[52:16.230 --> 52:17.350]  It's very addicting.
[52:17.690 --> 52:17.890]  Uh-huh.
[52:18.270 --> 52:19.310]  You're in a car, aren't you?
[52:19.750 --> 52:39.370]  Yeah, but I just wanted to let you know my son goes to school out in Suffolk, and we just got a letter about an eight-page form that we had to sign with regard to his use of computer systems, their systems.
[52:40.190 --> 52:47.430]  And I really wanted to run it by a lawyer or something, but I know my wife signed it already, but I want to try to get a hold of it.
[52:47.530 --> 52:50.910]  Maybe you guys should look at it, because it was pretty disturbing to me.
[52:50.950 --> 52:52.370]  I'm a computer consultant.
[52:52.550 --> 52:53.630]  Well, give us a gist of it.
[52:54.290 --> 53:05.650]  Well, basically, you know, they're covering their butts, that whatever the kids do on the system, they're not responsible for anything they may gain access to.
[53:06.290 --> 53:09.330]  You know, they could be prosecuted for getting into...
[53:09.330 --> 53:12.070]  They've got some three-letter acronym for their system.
[53:12.290 --> 53:12.690]  Uh-huh.
[53:12.810 --> 53:17.170]  But, you know, getting into any of their sensitive data and whatever.
[53:17.170 --> 53:21.410]  It's like, my son, since I'm a computer consultant, he knows a lot about computers.
[53:22.370 --> 53:29.310]  And I'm sort of disturbed because, uh, you know, he knows more about the systems there than any of the teachers.
[53:29.650 --> 53:30.430]  I mean, he's going...
[53:30.430 --> 53:33.290]  Yeah, that's why they see him as a threat, if he knows more than the teachers.
[53:33.490 --> 53:33.610]  Yeah.
[53:33.830 --> 53:35.830]  Well, they're not just sending it out to us.
[53:35.950 --> 53:37.950]  They're sending it out, I'm sure, to all the students.
[53:38.130 --> 53:41.730]  But my point is that most of the students do know more than the teachers as far as computers go.
[53:41.790 --> 53:46.690]  Anyone who takes an interest in it and is willing to experiment, they're very afraid of this kind of thing.
[53:46.870 --> 53:47.990]  It's quite typical.
[53:48.170 --> 53:57.450]  The important thing is that, uh, that they not abuse their power and intimidate people and, uh, and do all kinds of horrible things to them if they, if they experiment a little bit.
[53:57.950 --> 53:58.890]  Yeah, exactly.
[53:59.130 --> 53:59.890]  But these are kids.
[54:00.110 --> 54:02.310]  Now they're trying to hold the parents responsible.
[54:02.830 --> 54:09.330]  Well, the most important thing you can do as a parent is to show support for your kid if there's ever any kind of, uh, of problem.
[54:09.650 --> 54:13.950]  Like, don't assume that the administrators know anything about what they're talking about.
[54:14.050 --> 54:15.830]  Listen to what your kid has to say about the computer.
[54:15.830 --> 54:18.970]  Learn exactly what it is that he supposedly did.
[54:19.750 --> 54:23.490]  Uh, because most, most times people who are experimenting want to show other people what it is they're doing.
[54:24.090 --> 54:31.670]  And, uh, and, and, you know, assume, unless you have evidence to the contrary, that his intentions were, were not bad.
[54:31.990 --> 54:38.130]  Uh, and that these, these, uh, administrators are, are being, uh, ignorant and covering their own asses and things like that.
[54:38.290 --> 54:39.530]  You know, that, that's usually what happens.
[54:39.610 --> 54:40.930]  I hear stories like this all the time.
[54:41.930 --> 54:42.370]  Exactly.
[54:42.390 --> 54:44.070]  I think that's what they're doing now.
[54:44.270 --> 54:47.090]  It's, you know, they're just trying to cover themselves.
[54:47.410 --> 54:50.310]  It's, uh, they, they don't even know what they've got.
[54:50.310 --> 54:53.930]  I don't think, but I'm afraid that their systems don't have adequate securities.
[54:54.830 --> 54:56.090]  Oh, I can guarantee they don't.
[54:56.330 --> 54:56.610]  Yeah.
[54:56.690 --> 55:05.310]  So, I mean, if they don't have adequate securities maintained and my son stumbles into something in that system because they left the door wide open.
[55:05.410 --> 55:05.550]  Right.
[55:05.550 --> 55:07.650]  And then I'm responsible for that?
[55:08.130 --> 55:11.470]  Well, the thing is, they're going to blame him as if he created the problem.
[55:11.850 --> 55:11.970]  Right.
[55:11.970 --> 55:16.710]  And then, since he's a kid, they're going to come after you because you might actually be suable.
[55:17.590 --> 55:17.690]  Exactly.
[55:17.890 --> 55:22.410]  So, yeah, no, I, I would, if, if it's already been signed, then at least make it an issue.
[55:22.550 --> 55:26.450]  At least write to the local newspaper and, and point this out and say, this is wrong.
[55:26.650 --> 55:30.510]  You know, uh, this, this is a stupid way to deal with the situation.
[55:30.510 --> 55:38.050]  And if something does happen, just make sure that your kid is not victimized twice by having his parents get mad at him for something that is human nature.
[55:39.530 --> 55:39.890]  Exactly.
[55:40.150 --> 55:41.970]  I mean, I, I wouldn't get mad.
[55:42.110 --> 55:56.230]  I mean, because I know that he's not maliciously and, you know, he doesn't have a malicious intention, you know, but, uh, I just, I don't know, I would like to get a copy of this and maybe send it out to a lawyer and see what legal grounds we have.
[55:56.230 --> 56:01.790]  Because basically what they do, they put it in the kid's book bag and they sell the kid, have your parents sign it.
[56:01.790 --> 56:02.290]  Yeah, yeah.
[56:02.490 --> 56:04.790]  And they have to, and we didn't find it for a few days.
[56:05.010 --> 56:08.130]  And he was getting like, you know, well, we need it back signed.
[56:08.310 --> 56:09.310]  We need it back signed.
[56:09.490 --> 56:09.630]  Yeah.
[56:09.630 --> 56:09.810]  You know?
[56:10.590 --> 56:11.530]  Finally, my wife signed it.
[56:11.530 --> 56:14.290]  If you can get a copy of it, send it on in to us.
[56:14.610 --> 56:15.170]  Yeah, I think.
[56:15.610 --> 56:22.170]  And, uh, the address here is 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 1-0-0-0-0, wait, 1-0-0-1-8, right?
[56:22.450 --> 56:22.750]  Is that it?
[56:22.870 --> 56:23.150]  5.
[56:26.030 --> 56:37.210]  Yeah, I'll try to do that because I've got a feeling that, you know, there's a lot of this stuff that's going on now and, I don't know, it's just, it's like Pandora's box.
[56:37.450 --> 56:37.830]  I don't know.
[56:38.430 --> 56:39.870]  I mean, I'm under the...
[56:39.870 --> 56:42.310]  Yeah, well, fear and ignorance, that's what's driving this, fear and ignorance.
[56:42.690 --> 56:48.030]  Yeah, if there's a possibility of my son getting into trouble using their computers, well, you know what?
[56:49.070 --> 56:50.990]  I don't want him using their computers.
[56:51.250 --> 56:53.470]  You know, it's like, let him stay off the system.
[56:53.470 --> 56:56.470]  Yeah, but the thing is, computers are necessary for education.
[56:57.250 --> 56:59.730]  You shouldn't deprive your kid of that because they're idiots.
[57:00.070 --> 57:01.130]  I'd give him a laptop.
[57:01.230 --> 57:04.090]  You're paying for these computers through your taxes.
[57:04.110 --> 57:05.930]  You should have a say in how they're run.
[57:06.110 --> 57:07.130]  I'm sorry, we're out of time.
[57:07.150 --> 57:10.830]  I'd love to discuss this more, but that's all the time we have for today.
[57:11.750 --> 57:12.890]  We'll be back again next week.
[57:12.970 --> 57:13.950]  I'm told we'll be back again next week.
[57:14.010 --> 57:14.550]  Hopefully we will be.
[57:15.710 --> 57:17.950]  And until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[57:20.050 --> 57:20.830]  Have a good night.
[57:21.270 --> 57:22.450]  Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.
[57:22.450 --> 57:22.770]  Have a good evening.
[57:30.320 --> 57:33.440]  Welcome to Great Booga Ugo with our two girls.
[57:38.340 --> 57:42.400]  A couple of years ago down at the groves.
[57:43.060 --> 57:46.900]  The trades of tides sitting on the treasure trove.
[57:48.540 --> 57:51.560]  Skinny white dude came in and took a chair.
[57:53.020 --> 57:56.740]  He had a black leather jacket and loose black hair.
[57:58.260 --> 57:59.820]  That's real cream, baby.
[57:59.940 --> 58:05.980]  I heard the news.
[58:06.180 --> 58:06.840]  I heard the news.
[58:06.840 --> 58:07.420]  There was a...