[00:01.210 --> 00:02.750]  30 p.m.
[00:03.070 --> 00:04.070]  An admission is free.
[00:04.390 --> 00:08.950]  For more information, call 212-491-2229.
[00:09.330 --> 00:12.570]  That's 212-491-2229.
[00:12.830 --> 00:24.770]  This has been a public service announcement on behalf of the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, a non-profit organization by WBAI, 99.5 FM, New York.
[00:32.580 --> 00:42.000]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where it's 7.02, time for a special marathon edition of Off the Hook.
[00:45.520 --> 00:50.100]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:51.000 --> 00:55.660]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[00:56.300 --> 01:01.100]  We couldn't get much worse, so they would.
[01:01.360 --> 01:04.020]  From Billy Bump, for the best, expect the worst.
[01:05.140 --> 01:07.600]  I hope that's understood, one did it more.
[02:14.010 --> 02:14.770]  Good evening.
[02:23.010 --> 02:25.070]  This is ZQI.
[02:57.550 --> 03:00.930]  How do you think it out, get out, get out, get out.
[03:11.840 --> 03:13.100]  And good evening to everybody.
[03:13.260 --> 03:14.360]  The program is off the hook.
[03:14.540 --> 03:17.440]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next two hours tonight.
[03:18.340 --> 03:22.180]  And we have special programming all throughout the night of a technical vein.
[03:25.160 --> 03:27.780]  And we have some very special guests with us.
[03:28.760 --> 03:30.760]  Some regular guests with us as well.
[03:32.800 --> 03:33.300]  Hi, Mike.
[03:33.460 --> 03:33.740]  Hi, Jim.
[03:34.580 --> 03:34.900]  Hang on.
[03:35.240 --> 03:36.800]  I'm still turning on the microphones.
[03:36.960 --> 03:39.400]  There are so many people here tonight that you got to keep track of it.
[03:39.520 --> 03:39.800]  There you are, Jim.
[03:40.280 --> 03:40.720]  How are you doing?
[03:41.220 --> 03:42.340]  Oh, as bad as ever.
[03:42.520 --> 03:42.880]  That's good.
[03:43.340 --> 03:44.740]  And Mike over there.
[03:45.060 --> 03:45.700]  And Jeff.
[03:46.580 --> 03:46.900]  Welcome.
[03:47.160 --> 03:47.860]  I've got your mic now.
[03:48.180 --> 03:50.960]  And a very special guest in from California, Mr. Kevin Mitnick.
[03:51.080 --> 03:51.440]  How are you doing?
[03:51.640 --> 03:52.460]  Hey, good evening, Eric.
[03:53.460 --> 03:54.660]  Or Emmanuel, I'm sorry.
[03:55.020 --> 03:56.240]  Whatever you want to call me is fine.
[03:57.000 --> 03:58.160]  People call me all kinds of things.
[03:58.240 --> 03:59.880]  As long as it fits within FCC regulations.
[04:00.060 --> 04:00.440]  I don't care.
[04:01.240 --> 04:02.580]  So, um, welcome.
[04:02.760 --> 04:03.300]  Welcome to New York.
[04:03.400 --> 04:05.220]  You're here on a whirlwind tour.
[04:05.420 --> 04:07.000]  Well, I haven't started the tour yet.
[04:07.000 --> 04:08.880]  I'm actually out here for media training.
[04:09.100 --> 04:15.000]  But I ended up doing a lot of appearances on some television shows and radio shows while out here in New York.
[04:15.340 --> 04:17.380]  So it's been interesting.
[04:17.580 --> 04:21.680]  Unfortunately, I haven't had time to take a look at the city, especially after 9-11.
[04:22.580 --> 04:27.420]  So I'm out here kind of on getting prepared for the book tour that I start next week.
[04:27.640 --> 04:28.020]  Okay.
[04:28.140 --> 04:29.960]  So the book tour actually doesn't start until next week.
[04:30.480 --> 04:31.440]  October 22nd.
[04:31.460 --> 04:31.720]  Okay.
[04:32.100 --> 04:32.300]  All right.
[04:32.480 --> 04:34.820]  So right now you're training the media and how to deal with it?
[04:35.000 --> 04:36.400]  No, they're actually training me.
[04:37.100 --> 04:38.360]  The media is training you.
[04:38.440 --> 04:40.880]  Well, no, well, well, they're training you how to deal with the media.
[04:41.200 --> 04:53.740]  Well, I'm actually, what Wiley has done, my publisher, John Wiley and Sons, is before a lot of these, uh, like magazine television shows will allow you to appear, you have to go through some sort of training to learn how to talk in soundbites.
[04:53.740 --> 05:02.300]  So I've traveled out from California on Monday and I've been, I've been all day going through media training today.
[05:02.460 --> 05:03.240]  So I'm kind of burned out.
[05:03.420 --> 05:11.620]  How to talk in soundbites, how to talk in soundbites, you know, to, to address the questions very concisely and, and, and with clarity.
[05:12.000 --> 05:23.200]  Uh, so if you're doing a three or three to five minute television appearance, that's live, you're able to communicate the information that I want to communicate and kind of, you know, they train you how to take control of the interview.
[05:23.400 --> 05:24.140]  I think it's good.
[05:24.240 --> 05:27.640]  You did a three or five minute TV show that was live yesterday on Fox, right?
[05:28.000 --> 05:31.100]  Well, yeah, it was, I had a good morning, New York.
[05:31.340 --> 05:32.200]  Is that, that's on Fox?
[05:32.340 --> 05:34.880]  They all called that, but yeah, I think good morning, New York.
[05:35.100 --> 05:37.960]  I never watched television, so, uh, bear with me.
[05:37.960 --> 05:41.420]  And then I was on the Bloomberg radio show last night.
[05:41.640 --> 05:42.720]  That's the mayor's station.
[05:43.280 --> 05:44.100]  We're very proud of it.
[05:44.240 --> 05:45.680]  The mayor owns all the media in this town.
[05:46.120 --> 05:47.560]  That way, that way it's safe.
[05:47.740 --> 05:48.040]  That way.
[05:48.260 --> 05:49.640]  That way the mayor controls.
[05:49.760 --> 05:53.260]  We're not owned by Bloomberg, but you know, I think that'll be solved soon.
[05:54.160 --> 05:55.060]  You should have seen that.
[05:55.360 --> 05:56.760]  They had a very high tech radio station.
[05:56.880 --> 05:57.480]  It was pretty impressive.
[05:57.740 --> 05:58.060]  Who does?
[05:58.400 --> 05:58.760]  Uh, Bloomberg.
[05:59.080 --> 05:59.280]  Oh yeah?
[05:59.580 --> 05:59.680]  Yeah.
[05:59.780 --> 06:00.140]  Very impressive.
[06:00.440 --> 06:04.980]  Everything was, uh, I mean, down to the clocks, everything that was computerized, modern.
[06:05.300 --> 06:06.180]  I mean, what do you call that?
[06:06.220 --> 06:07.100]  There's a digital clock right there.
[06:07.220 --> 06:07.380]  Yeah.
[06:08.440 --> 06:16.700]  Well, when I was hosting a radio show in Los Angeles, uh, that the equipment there seemed kind of archaic, but we didn't have to operate the board like you're doing.
[06:16.880 --> 06:19.840]  It was pretty much, you just, you're the, you're the talent behind the microphone.
[06:20.220 --> 06:24.740]  So you seem to be, you have to, uh, you seem to be having to do a lot of things.
[06:24.940 --> 06:25.120]  Yeah.
[06:25.140 --> 06:29.180]  But I see that that's what radio is, is doing a lot of things, you know, I want the music to dominate.
[06:29.660 --> 06:32.920]  You know, or fade me down.
[06:33.280 --> 06:34.780]  You know, it's, it's, you can do whatever you want.
[06:35.080 --> 06:41.660]  And that's, uh, we had, we had what they call board ops and screeners and, uh, producers and stuff like that.
[06:41.760 --> 06:43.480]  This is a, so it's an interesting setup.
[06:43.680 --> 06:44.760]  It's, uh, very educational.
[06:45.280 --> 06:46.140]  It's really too bad.
[06:46.140 --> 06:48.420]  I couldn't have, uh, uh, been here before.
[06:48.620 --> 06:54.280]  Of course, I've called in on the telephone on numerous occasions, but it, uh, it's interesting to be live in the studio.
[06:54.280 --> 06:55.360]  So I'm really honored to be here.
[06:55.460 --> 06:55.740]  It's great.
[06:55.980 --> 06:56.460]  Well, it's interesting.
[06:56.580 --> 06:58.820]  Our first show is in October of 1988.
[06:59.760 --> 07:07.600]  Um, I don't think there's been a day since then that you have actually been a free citizen that can move around as you please.
[07:07.900 --> 07:10.240]  And, uh, you know, you don't have to worry about something.
[07:10.400 --> 07:20.820]  No, in fact, if you go to the free Kevin website, the countdown clock is still ticking to the time I'm off, uh, my, uh, government supervised release, which ends on January 21st.
[07:20.920 --> 07:24.880]  And once that expires, I only have one thing I'm prohibited from doing.
[07:25.020 --> 07:32.540]  And that's from writing the true Kevin Mitnick story and profiting there from, and that's for an additional period of seven years.
[07:32.720 --> 07:35.560]  But that's when I finally can get on the internet for the first time.
[07:35.560 --> 07:37.000]  I'm allowed to have a computer now.
[07:37.240 --> 07:40.800]  I have a Sony via laptop, but I'm not allowed to use the internet yet.
[07:41.540 --> 07:43.500]  January 20th, though, you will be allowed to use the internet.
[07:43.560 --> 07:44.340]  Yes, because, you know...
[07:44.340 --> 07:45.400]  And no doubt, January 21st.
[07:45.420 --> 07:47.140]  You know, I'm the Osama Ben Mitnick of the internet.
[07:47.380 --> 07:48.300]  So, of course, they...
[07:48.300 --> 07:48.540]  That's a soundbite.
[07:48.660 --> 07:49.460]  Wasn't that a soundbite right there?
[07:49.460 --> 07:50.600]  That was a definite soundbite.
[07:50.680 --> 07:50.740]  Wow.
[07:50.740 --> 07:52.440]  The Osama Ben Mitnick of the internet.
[07:52.620 --> 07:53.040]  I saw it.
[07:53.040 --> 07:57.400]  And you can imagine the fear that it would generate if I were to get on Yahoo or Google.
[07:57.700 --> 07:57.860]  Mm-hmm.
[07:58.160 --> 08:00.580]  Well, January 21st, 2003...
[08:00.580 --> 08:01.520]  It's not that far off.
[08:01.620 --> 08:04.860]  That's the day the internet's going to break, because you're going to be on it for a full day.
[08:05.520 --> 08:10.360]  Well, that's the day that the FBI and the Secret Service go on full alert, probably.
[08:10.540 --> 08:10.940]  Just kidding.
[08:11.220 --> 08:22.360]  Well, this time, we're going to be watching very carefully, because the last time your supervised release was about to end, how much of a time frame was there before the FBI?
[08:22.400 --> 08:22.560]  30 days.
[08:22.720 --> 08:23.060]  30 days.
[08:23.120 --> 08:29.980]  So, 30 days before you were going to be actually free, they started the whole thing that resulted in your five-year imprisonment.
[08:30.600 --> 08:31.200]  Exactly.
[08:31.320 --> 08:36.960]  What happened is the government sent this informant that was busted...
[08:36.960 --> 08:40.540]  He was... a guy named Justin Peterson was busted on the Kevin Poulsen case.
[08:40.700 --> 08:48.540]  He became an FBI informant to try to entrap other people that were involved in computer hacking activities, turn them over to the government.
[08:48.540 --> 08:57.840]  So, the government actually sent him to befriend me and establish a relationship in hopes that they'd be able to collect information on what I was doing.
[08:57.840 --> 08:59.880]  But Peterson had another agenda.
[08:59.920 --> 09:11.160]  He figured the more feathers he had in his cap by busting people, that he would be able to continue his life of crime and pretty much be immune from prosecution.
[09:11.500 --> 09:16.560]  So, he pretty much, you know, dangled a carrot to go back and do computer hacking.
[09:16.680 --> 09:20.780]  At that time, I had stopped, and I ended up getting hooked again.
[09:22.280 --> 09:30.800]  And the government, well, it's a long story, but what happened is they ended up issuing a warrant for my arrest.
[09:31.020 --> 09:35.880]  I ran because I was afraid they were going to put me back in solitary confinement like they did in the first case.
[09:36.140 --> 09:46.860]  I don't know if you recall, but when I was initially busted in 1988, a federal prosecutor told the federal magistrate that I could start a nuclear war by whistling into the telephone.
[09:47.100 --> 09:52.540]  And the judge believed it, and I ended up being placed in solitary confinement for about eight months.
[09:52.640 --> 09:53.300]  We have a dial tone.
[09:55.060 --> 09:55.860]  Can you still whistle?
[09:58.600 --> 09:59.760]  I've been out of practice.
[10:00.640 --> 10:02.140]  I don't know if I can do it.
[10:02.260 --> 10:05.160]  I used to be able to whistle 2,600 hertz, but I don't think I can do that anymore.
[10:05.160 --> 10:06.200]  Meet Nick, meet the dial tone.
[10:07.220 --> 10:08.060]  Yeah, we're off.
[10:08.580 --> 10:09.760]  That's what they're afraid of.
[10:09.900 --> 10:11.560]  You can whistle into the phone and...
[10:11.560 --> 10:12.860]  And start an nuclear war.
[10:12.940 --> 10:15.440]  So anyway, I ended up spending eight months in solitary confinement.
[10:15.680 --> 10:17.500]  That was a very unpleasant experience.
[10:17.720 --> 10:19.160]  Well, the eight months in solitary confinement was before...
[10:19.920 --> 10:21.180]  Yeah, before this last case.
[10:21.180 --> 10:26.740]  So obviously, when I found out the government was pursuing me, I was very concerned that they were going to do the same thing again.
[10:26.740 --> 10:44.160]  So I split as a fugitive for a number of years, ended up getting busted, and then I became the poster boy for computer hacking, and ended up being held in pre-trial detention for four and a half years, being held without a bail hearing.
[10:44.400 --> 10:45.800]  Eventually, I pled out the case.
[10:47.280 --> 10:48.160]  I settled...
[10:49.400 --> 10:50.840]  The government offered me a deal.
[10:50.980 --> 10:53.520]  You plead out now, you'll do six more months in custody.
[10:53.780 --> 10:55.100]  If you don't, we'll take you to trial.
[10:55.100 --> 10:58.100]  If we'll lose, we'll take you to another federal jurisdiction and try you again.
[10:58.100 --> 11:02.560]  And so I felt the best thing to do was cut my losses.
[11:02.980 --> 11:11.620]  And so I pled out the case, ended up serving about five years in prison, and was released on January 21st of 2000.
[11:12.320 --> 11:15.820]  And since then, I've done a number of things to change my life around.
[11:15.980 --> 11:20.560]  And I guess I'd characterize myself as the retired hacker nowadays.
[11:21.280 --> 11:28.340]  Well, I mean, some of the things that you've been talking about indicate that it's very much in your head.
[11:29.300 --> 11:32.540]  It's not a part of your life you've turned your back on in any sense.
[11:33.540 --> 11:41.520]  You still remember how the insecurities of various systems work, what's out there, the potential of things today.
[11:41.580 --> 11:45.660]  I mean, I read your book, and there are so many things in there that are current.
[11:46.200 --> 11:48.380]  It doesn't sound like somebody who was put away for five years.
[11:48.380 --> 11:54.840]  It doesn't sound like somebody who is able to understand everything that's going on today, from 802.11 networks to current webpages, things like that.
[11:55.000 --> 11:57.680]  Well, you know, the bottom line is companies are totally clueless.
[11:57.820 --> 11:58.900]  They remain vulnerable.
[11:59.080 --> 12:06.900]  They spend thousands of dollars on buying firewalls, biometric authentication devices, the secure ID, which is time-based tokens,
[12:10.140 --> 12:12.000]  encryption, intrusion detection systems.
[12:12.000 --> 12:28.400]  And if I can just call one employee in a company that has purchased those high-tech solutions and deceive them into doing something, running a computer program, installing software, revealing their password, all that money that they spent, those thousands and thousands of dollars,
[12:28.600 --> 12:29.360]  are just wasted.
[12:31.240 --> 12:43.800]  And these techniques that I've actually exposed in this book, and I've been criticized by my fellow comrades for kind of revealing a lot of the techniques and tricks that were used.
[12:43.960 --> 12:48.360]  But all these techniques still work today.
[12:48.760 --> 12:51.260]  I mean, every one of them, I'm sure you've recognized them.
[12:51.520 --> 13:00.080]  It's kind of funny because the story that most people like is how to beat your traffic ticket using social engineering.
[13:01.740 --> 13:02.840]  It works in California.
[13:03.020 --> 13:03.900]  I don't know if it works here or out here.
[13:03.900 --> 13:04.620]  Yeah, I read that.
[13:04.760 --> 13:11.460]  I wasn't sure if it would work here, but certainly the mindset is something that you could apply to almost any situation.
[13:11.720 --> 13:14.180]  One way to avoid traffic tickets is to not speed.
[13:14.460 --> 13:16.080]  Thank you, Mr. Voice of Morality.
[13:16.200 --> 13:16.760]  There you go.
[13:17.340 --> 13:18.680]  I'm the anti-car voice.
[13:18.900 --> 13:21.580]  You can be immoral in other parts of your life.
[13:21.720 --> 13:22.000]  All right.
[13:22.100 --> 13:22.860]  We'll consider that, too.
[13:23.940 --> 13:32.860]  But certainly you can take any kind of, I guess, mind manipulation, mind games that you play on people and apply that to almost any kind of situation.
[13:33.820 --> 13:37.940]  And, you know, you can make successful social engineering out of that.
[13:38.220 --> 13:47.600]  Yeah, I mean, I think successful salesmen of salesmen, politicians, private investigators, all of them use social engineering to a degree.
[13:47.640 --> 13:55.420]  It's really just being an expert in persuasion, at persuading people and influencing people to comply with some sort of request.
[13:55.420 --> 13:58.620]  And social engineering always has the component of deception.
[13:58.780 --> 13:59.140]  Right.
[13:59.280 --> 14:09.460]  Because what you're doing is you're deceiving the individual into believing that some fact exists or that you are someone that you say you are, but you're really not.
[14:09.540 --> 14:09.660]  Right.
[14:09.660 --> 14:11.720]  You're basically misrepresenting to get something done.
[14:11.820 --> 14:13.180]  That's not something that just applies to hackers.
[14:13.380 --> 14:20.240]  That could apply, as you say, to salesmen, to police, to anyone who's trying to get something from you that you wouldn't ordinarily give.
[14:20.420 --> 14:22.500]  Yeah, and the biggest thing nowadays is identity theft.
[14:22.500 --> 14:25.140]  That's the fastest-growing crime of the decade.
[14:25.320 --> 14:32.860]  And all the identity thief has to do is get certain pieces of information about you, your social security number, your address, your zip code.
[14:33.120 --> 14:35.420]  Your mother just made a name, and they now become you.
[14:35.540 --> 14:35.800]  Right.
[14:35.920 --> 14:39.320]  And establish credit cards and your credit card accounts.
[14:39.440 --> 14:40.880]  They can basically drain your bank accounts.
[14:40.920 --> 14:43.960]  In fact, I was just a victim of identity theft.
[14:44.060 --> 14:47.820]  Someone opened up a cellular phone account out of Denver in my name.
[14:48.920 --> 14:59.080]  And I think where they obtained this information is on the Internet, people could look up my social security number and date of birth, because on the wanted poster that the U.S.
[14:59.180 --> 15:06.940]  Marshals had, it's now available on the Internet, so anybody can pull that down, and they have this particular information, so they now can masquerade as Mick.
[15:07.960 --> 15:13.940]  And that's what someone did, and stole my identity and opened up a cellular phone account.
[15:14.600 --> 15:15.840]  And did you get the bill?
[15:16.100 --> 15:16.340]  Yeah.
[15:16.540 --> 15:18.620]  It was actually mailed to my mom in Las Vegas.
[15:18.820 --> 15:19.060]  Wow.
[15:19.280 --> 15:20.300]  She sends me this bill.
[15:20.400 --> 15:22.940]  You know, why'd you run up this $300 bill in cell phone calls?
[15:23.240 --> 15:25.920]  And I go, well, first of all, I never used your address.
[15:26.100 --> 15:27.300]  You know, I'm talking to my mom now.
[15:28.700 --> 15:29.900]  And send me the bill.
[15:30.020 --> 15:33.120]  So I get the bill, and it was somebody opened up the account out of Denver, Colorado.
[15:33.460 --> 15:34.340]  Now, it's that easy.
[15:34.340 --> 15:38.500]  Just use the Social Security number and name, and you can steal somebody's...
[15:38.500 --> 15:38.580]  Yeah, they apply for credit.
[15:38.900 --> 15:39.920]  Yeah, you just need...
[15:40.420 --> 15:42.120]  See, what happens is the three credit bureaus.
[15:42.120 --> 15:48.520]  You have Experian, you have TransUnion, and you have Equifax, and they store, you know, credit files on each and every one of this, as you know.
[15:48.680 --> 15:48.840]  Right.
[15:49.000 --> 15:58.600]  And to basically masquerade as somebody else, you pretty much need just very limited information, a Social Security number and an address and a name.
[15:58.820 --> 15:59.700]  That's pretty much it.
[16:00.060 --> 16:07.100]  And what happens is when someone who's going to grant an extension of credit inquires, they pull up your entire record.
[16:07.260 --> 16:10.660]  And they believe that you are who you say are, just based on some information that you know.
[16:10.840 --> 16:11.620]  It's really simple.
[16:11.740 --> 16:12.080]  It's amazing.
[16:12.380 --> 16:26.860]  And another thing that I found out was when I was doing my radio show in Los Angeles, we found out that if I, with my credit card under Kevin Mitnick, if I wanted to pull your credit report from Experian, I could do that, right?
[16:26.940 --> 16:29.540]  They allow you to use a credit card in a different name.
[16:30.620 --> 16:35.300]  And all you really have to know is like your date of birth, your Social Security number, your current address.
[16:35.700 --> 16:40.420]  And then they gave you three test questions to verify that you are who you say you are.
[16:40.560 --> 16:43.320]  And what they'll do is they'll pull information from your credit profile.
[16:43.780 --> 16:46.600]  Like, and they'll ask you, like, did you ever live on such and such street?
[16:47.040 --> 16:48.700]  Or, and they'll give you a multiple choice.
[16:49.280 --> 16:50.720]  Have you ever worked at this company?
[16:50.840 --> 16:51.540]  Multiple choice.
[16:51.680 --> 16:52.700]  Is your year of birth?
[16:52.860 --> 16:54.640]  And they'll give you a multiple choice question.
[16:54.640 --> 17:00.360]  If you answer none of the above to all questions, it will allow you to run the credit report.
[17:00.580 --> 17:07.140]  And the reason is, is because so many people use other people's Social Security numbers that they can't tell whether or not you're really that person.
[17:08.220 --> 17:11.260]  So, just by default, that gets around their security mechanism.
[17:11.260 --> 17:17.080]  So, it allows anybody with a fraudulent credit card to run anybody's credit profile just by having their social in their name.
[17:17.160 --> 17:17.720]  It's pretty scary.
[17:18.300 --> 17:19.300]  That is pretty scary.
[17:19.700 --> 17:20.960]  That's, uh, that's something.
[17:23.740 --> 17:24.720]  Anyway, uh...
[17:24.720 --> 17:24.960]  What?
[17:26.260 --> 17:30.280]  There's people a mile away trying to talk, so you have to be up at a microphone if you want to say something.
[17:31.240 --> 17:33.440]  Um, we're going to be taking phone calls in a little bit.
[17:33.680 --> 17:38.020]  Um, and also, of course, uh, this is your opportunity to support the radio station.
[17:38.020 --> 17:42.120]  We'll be, uh, offering a special pledge package in just a couple of minutes as well.
[17:42.780 --> 17:45.120]  Um, did you have further information you wanted to pass along?
[17:45.260 --> 17:45.280]  Oh, yeah.
[17:45.600 --> 17:49.700]  I, I, that was my, my co-host, uh, Alex, uh, Casper, who's here from Los Angeles.
[17:49.760 --> 17:50.040]  Hey, Alex.
[17:50.040 --> 17:57.420]  Alex, and, um, uh, he, he just wanted to make sure that people aren't under the misconception that I was on the internet doing this.
[17:57.540 --> 18:03.880]  We had producers at KFI that actually did this stuff for us, and I just didn't want anyone to think, oh, is he using the internet?
[18:04.080 --> 18:17.020]  Well, I mean, basically, what you were able to do over the past couple of years is do a radio show at a major radio station in a major city and write a book, uh, all without, uh, violating the terms of your supervised release, which is basically not being allowed to,
[18:17.160 --> 18:18.640]  to use, uh, the internet.
[18:18.640 --> 18:20.040]  You're allowed to use a laptop, I think?
[18:20.320 --> 18:20.380]  Yeah.
[18:20.560 --> 18:29.620]  In fact, uh, last year in January, where after I received the book contract from Wiley, uh, the, the probation department allowed me to purchase a computer to write the book on.
[18:29.780 --> 18:31.380]  Otherwise, I was going to do it in longhand.
[18:32.700 --> 18:42.120]  And, um, and it was under a condition that I was not able to tell anybody about it, especially the media.
[18:42.280 --> 18:44.860]  I had to keep it a secret that I was given permission.
[18:45.200 --> 18:57.340]  So about June, July, an AP reporter interviewed somebody that was high up in the probation department who revealed that I was, in fact, given this permission to use a computer to write the book.
[18:57.340 --> 18:57.700]  Mm-hmm.
[18:57.840 --> 19:04.380]  And, uh, and since the government already spilled the beans, I was given the okay to go ahead and talk about it, and I didn't have to keep it a secret any longer.
[19:04.720 --> 19:04.900]  Okay.
[19:04.960 --> 19:06.980]  So I was actually allowed to use a computer since January.
[19:07.720 --> 19:11.540]  And, uh, you know, in a few more months, I'll finally be able to use the internet.
[19:11.680 --> 19:12.780]  So I'm pretty excited about that.
[19:12.960 --> 19:14.580]  Yeah, as is everybody on the internet.
[19:15.100 --> 19:18.300]  And I can finally have my email address at 2600.com, right?
[19:18.300 --> 19:20.100]  Yeah, yeah, well, the spam comes in.
[19:21.120 --> 19:21.440]  Unbelievable.
[19:21.660 --> 19:22.840]  We'll have to figure out a way to filter that.
[19:22.840 --> 19:33.260]  But, um, okay, let's go into some, uh, listener mail, some, some news, then we'll, uh, announce the, the pledge packages, and hopefully, uh, we'll get a flurry of calls, and then we can actually, uh, also talk about the book.
[19:33.800 --> 19:40.260]  Um, okay, we have some mail from, uh, and feel free anybody to jump in with, uh, comments and opinions on, on these pieces of mail.
[19:40.740 --> 19:44.980]  Um, this is from, um, uh, a listener in Bulgaria.
[19:45.440 --> 19:49.100]  That's right, we have listeners in Bulgaria, as well as many other places in, in the world.
[19:49.560 --> 19:53.640]  Um, this person has some news that's, uh, that's bothersome, he thinks.
[19:54.080 --> 19:57.720]  Um, he wants, uh, he wants to remain anonymous, which I think we can, we can arrange.
[19:58.340 --> 20:03.240]  Um, basically, he agrees with us that telemarketing is evil.
[20:03.640 --> 20:05.620]  I hope we come up with a way to put an end to this.
[20:05.820 --> 20:08.580]  I live in Bulgaria, a former Rosser-Ipaq country.
[20:08.740 --> 20:09.300]  It's a poor country.
[20:09.480 --> 20:11.820]  Unemployment in the capital city of Sofia is at 7%.
[20:12.700 --> 20:14.000]  Worse than in the rest of the country.
[20:14.140 --> 20:17.280]  Isn't our country, like, what, 12% or something?
[20:17.280 --> 20:18.240]  What's our unemployment rate?
[20:18.640 --> 20:19.400]  It's, it's, it's, it's high.
[20:19.400 --> 20:19.700]  I don't know.
[20:19.980 --> 20:20.480]  It's up there.
[20:21.000 --> 20:21.400]  Yeah.
[20:21.880 --> 20:24.120]  Well, everyone I know is unemployed, so I think it's, it's up there.
[20:24.380 --> 20:32.620]  Uh, yesterday, a Help Wanted ad appeared in a newspaper calling for people with fluent English language skills, uh, who sound good over the phone, et cetera.
[20:33.160 --> 20:36.740]  Uh, people available to work during North American business hours.
[20:37.600 --> 20:38.080]  Yeah.
[20:38.740 --> 20:40.900]  Um, promises of great commissions, et cetera.
[20:41.480 --> 20:56.080]  Um, basically, what's happening here is that somebody's trying to make a buck off the fact that minimum wage in Bulgaria, and this is something I'd really like to know if this is true, it's about $12 a week, which is around, uh, 30 cents an hour.
[20:56.460 --> 20:59.680]  Well, that's what I was making at Lompoc Federal Prison, 12 cents an hour.
[20:59.800 --> 21:00.360]  Yeah, that's true.
[21:00.580 --> 21:02.440]  But these are people out in the street in Bulgaria.
[21:02.680 --> 21:03.000]  I don't know.
[21:03.060 --> 21:03.940]  Are they making that little?
[21:04.460 --> 21:05.000]  Can you imagine?
[21:14.020 --> 21:15.540]  Who thinks that's a lot, you know?
[21:15.800 --> 21:16.720]  That, in excess of five...
[21:16.720 --> 21:17.220]  That sounds like...
[21:17.220 --> 21:18.820]  How can you survive on $5 an hour?
[21:18.820 --> 21:21.000]  You can't survive on $5 an hour.
[21:21.400 --> 21:24.760]  Uh, even if you work 24 hours a day, I don't think you can survive like that.
[21:25.260 --> 21:32.020]  Um, with that perspective, you can figure out how easy it is for someone to deliver the so-called substantial salary to anyone who may fall for that.
[21:32.700 --> 21:34.800]  Um, I think telephone calls to the U.S.
[21:34.940 --> 21:36.820]  are, uh, under 50 cents a minute.
[21:37.460 --> 21:51.440]  Um, so basically, uh, basically what it means is that people are, are becoming telemarketers from countries like Bulgaria and, uh, I guess not liable to any kinds of telemarketing regulations, rules, restrictions, that kind of thing.
[21:51.940 --> 21:55.420]  And, uh, they're, they're, uh, basically calling us long distance.
[21:55.960 --> 21:56.360]  So...
[21:56.360 --> 21:58.620]  It's been happening in India, I know, for a while.
[21:58.780 --> 21:59.540]  India calls here?
[21:59.760 --> 22:00.000]  Yeah.
[22:00.460 --> 22:03.140]  Wow, I didn't think the phone lines were that reliable that they could actually...
[22:03.140 --> 22:06.300]  If you're gonna set up one of these things, you get reliable phone lines.
[22:06.500 --> 22:06.760]  Mm-hmm.
[22:08.020 --> 22:09.300]  Wow, that's, uh, that's something.
[22:09.420 --> 22:12.160]  I knew they, they, you know, had slave labor making clothes and things like that.
[22:12.300 --> 22:16.700]  They didn't know that they had slave labor, you know, selling you Sprint and MCI and that kind of thing and whatever it is they're selling.
[22:16.900 --> 22:18.720]  If someone gets a call like that...
[22:18.720 --> 22:24.360]  In fact, a friend of mine recently, uh, has a Bieber company and he called, uh, his, his bill was late.
[22:24.360 --> 22:31.460]  He called the, um, uh, the, the billing people and he called, he talked to two different people in a row and he realized that neither one of them could speak English very well.
[22:31.560 --> 22:32.820]  So he finally asked them where they were.
[22:32.960 --> 22:33.860]  It turned out they were in Mexico.
[22:34.500 --> 22:41.440]  So then he called the sales department and said, are you aware that your fellow workers are, are working in Mexico?
[22:41.620 --> 22:52.980]  And it seems that the, the, uh, collections department had just recently been transferred, had moved, and they weren't aware that these jobs were being put in a different country, uh, at the substantially lower wages.
[22:52.980 --> 23:01.960]  So he planted the seed in the sales department and, um, called back a couple of days later and everybody knew about it and it was a big, uh, to do in the office.
[23:02.220 --> 23:10.180]  So, um, if you find out a company is doing this, by all means, let everybody know and maybe, uh, some justice for everybody will come about as a result of it.
[23:10.340 --> 23:15.880]  If you get a, sort of quality of life ticket, uh, you know, spitting on the sidewalk or something like that in New York City.
[23:15.880 --> 23:16.320]  That's easy to do.
[23:16.420 --> 23:17.380]  Yeah, you can do that very easily.
[23:17.560 --> 23:17.700]  Yeah.
[23:17.980 --> 23:21.580]  Uh, it will be scanned in and sent to Ghana to be processed.
[23:22.080 --> 23:22.800]  That's, I heard that.
[23:22.800 --> 23:23.120]  Ghana.
[23:23.500 --> 23:23.740]  Ghana.
[23:23.960 --> 23:24.640]  That's unbelievable.
[23:25.620 --> 23:27.360]  God knows how much they pay people there.
[23:27.600 --> 23:28.340]  Not very much.
[23:28.460 --> 23:29.960]  A lot less in Bulgaria, I'll bet.
[23:30.240 --> 23:30.360]  Yeah.
[23:31.220 --> 23:37.200]  Have they ever done a study about the, uh, typical, uh, minimum wage in all these foreign different, all these foreign countries?
[23:37.460 --> 23:38.940]  Or they probably don't have minimum wage laws.
[23:38.940 --> 23:39.520]  I don't think they do.
[23:39.700 --> 23:42.460]  No, they don't have labor laws and very soon we take advantage of that.
[23:43.320 --> 23:45.300]  I guess that's why it's great to be in America, huh?
[23:45.320 --> 23:45.860]  Oh, yeah.
[23:46.640 --> 23:47.840]  Take advantage of everybody.
[23:48.000 --> 23:49.760]  Where we have labor laws that aren't enforced.
[23:50.760 --> 23:56.040]  Uh, this person's a Portuguese listener and, uh, I can't help being astonished with lots that you talk about in the show.
[23:56.160 --> 23:57.980]  Portugal is a relatively democratic country.
[23:58.200 --> 24:03.360]  There's not much of censorship, uh, or tight surveillance over individuals unless they have incriminating backgrounds.
[24:03.840 --> 24:15.800]  Uh, the reason for my astonishment is the way you talk about your government controlling everything in everyone's life, surveillance cameras everywhere, laws that entitle the common citizen the right to judge others as being, uh, terrorist or not being terrorist,
[24:16.020 --> 24:20.460]  monitored networks, and that story about a guy who was sent to jail for downloading a movie.
[24:20.540 --> 24:22.160]  I think this is one of the stories on our website.
[24:22.560 --> 24:33.480]  Uh, my knowledge about the USA is mostly based on your president's important statements, which are usually shown on televisions all over the world, and I wonder how you people stand up for a government which, as far as, uh, they say stands for freedom.
[24:33.920 --> 24:41.240]  I spoke to a few American people, and they say, I know nothing about your country, which is probably true, and that my country is nothing more than a horde of underdeveloped barbarians.
[24:41.880 --> 24:42.780]  I don't think that's true.
[24:43.420 --> 24:55.400]  Uh, probably it's the same underdevelopment that allows me to say that, uh, though my freedom is limited, for instance, I can't start shooting people whenever I feel like it, uh, I think um, I think of my people as not only free people, but more importantly,
[24:55.900 --> 24:56.700]  free individuals.
[24:57.220 --> 25:01.420]  Through the news, I know your country is full of mean people and all kinds of perverts and stuff.
[25:01.880 --> 25:06.060]  I think that's probably because of the way the media portrays, uh, certain things, too.
[25:06.200 --> 25:07.800]  Was it download a movie, go to jail?
[25:08.020 --> 25:09.980]  Uh, well, that's what one person did.
[25:10.120 --> 25:12.360]  We've got our fair share of mean people, I'll give them that.
[25:12.360 --> 25:23.940]  We have mean people, but, uh, you know, basically, the media creates hysteria that, uh, you know, we have to have restrictions because of all the mean people, because of all the perverts, we have to have controls I was thinking of the mean people in control,
[25:23.980 --> 25:24.540]  but go on.
[25:24.620 --> 25:30.480]  Well, yeah, I don't think that's how it was portrayed here, but that's certainly true as someone who sees them every day.
[25:30.780 --> 25:32.840]  It all comes down to power and money, right?
[25:33.480 --> 25:34.740]  Yeah, well, it usually does.
[25:35.580 --> 25:41.180]  So this person basically is just making a bunch of comments from his experience in Portugal over there.
[25:41.180 --> 25:52.000]  And I think, you know, there's a lot that's true about these statements that we are losing lots of freedoms and sort of brushing it off.
[25:52.080 --> 25:55.540]  But it's in the name of protecting the children and protecting us against terrorism.
[25:55.620 --> 25:59.880]  Well, right now, as of today, they're flying spy planes over the United States looking for the sniper.
[26:00.000 --> 26:06.440]  Now, what I want to know is how is a military spy plane going to find somebody who already shot people days ago?
[26:06.660 --> 26:09.980]  I mean, is there going to be some big target on his truck or something?
[26:09.980 --> 26:10.960]  How are they going to know?
[26:11.120 --> 26:16.240]  Even if someone does it right now, I still don't know how a spy plane is going to be able to figure out.
[26:16.420 --> 26:18.980]  Won't like a news chopper do the same exact thing?
[26:19.100 --> 26:23.680]  Maybe he has some sort of predictable patterns and they're presuming that he might be in a certain location.
[26:23.980 --> 26:24.660]  Who knows?
[26:25.020 --> 26:38.800]  Well, the thing is, when they don't catch this guy and when 10 years have gone by and the spy planes are still above our country, people are going to start forgetting that there was a time when the military didn't patrol our skies and that we had a certain separation there.
[26:38.800 --> 26:47.700]  But in the interest of safety, in the interest of all the unsolved crimes that are mysteriously popping up, like anthrax and snipers, we need more control.
[26:47.860 --> 26:48.740]  We need more restrictions.
[26:49.380 --> 26:52.440]  And we lose our civil liberties as a result.
[26:52.620 --> 26:52.780]  Yeah.
[26:52.860 --> 26:53.680]  Like the Patriot Act.
[26:53.920 --> 26:54.080]  Yeah.
[26:55.380 --> 26:59.260]  And what about this new law that passed the Senate?
[26:59.260 --> 27:05.520]  I don't know if it passed the House and was actually approved, where they're going to try to approve life sentences for hackers.
[27:05.720 --> 27:05.860]  Yeah.
[27:06.100 --> 27:06.260]  Yeah.
[27:06.260 --> 27:06.800]  I remember that.
[27:06.920 --> 27:12.720]  And this was amazing is you can go ahead and take a motor vehicle out on the road and intentionally injure somebody.
[27:12.720 --> 27:16.820]  And you get like in California, you get maybe one, two, three years in prison, right?
[27:17.340 --> 27:25.800]  Under the new federal law, if you use a computer and you negligently injure anybody, then it's life without the possibility of parole.
[27:25.800 --> 27:28.700]  I mean, isn't that quite a little... somewhat of a disparity?
[27:28.940 --> 27:29.580]  It certainly is.
[27:29.760 --> 27:32.880]  In fact, Jello Biafra gave a talk last night in Brooklyn.
[27:33.040 --> 27:35.320]  It's too bad he's not still here because I'd love for you guys to meet.
[27:35.420 --> 27:36.220]  He's in Illinois now.
[27:36.800 --> 27:40.620]  But he gave a four or five hour lecture in front of an enthusiastic crowd.
[27:40.680 --> 27:41.700]  He mentioned the hacker thing.
[27:41.820 --> 27:48.380]  He mentioned, and this is something I guess he took away from the HOPE conferences, that you can get a life sentence for hacking.
[27:49.380 --> 27:49.760]  Yeah.
[27:50.320 --> 27:51.060]  It's just unbelievable.
[27:51.060 --> 27:51.380]  It's bizarre.
[27:51.380 --> 27:59.840]  So if you use a computer as a tool to injure or to kill somebody, it's an automatic life sentence without the possibility of parole.
[28:00.040 --> 28:03.800]  But if you use another tool, like a car, well, that's okay.
[28:03.800 --> 28:05.080]  Then you might get a couple years.
[28:05.980 --> 28:07.200]  I mean, where's the logic?
[28:07.660 --> 28:08.360]  Yeah, yeah.
[28:08.920 --> 28:12.880]  And I think we're not even talking about using it to intentionally kill somebody.
[28:12.880 --> 28:17.580]  I think unintentional was in there somewhere if you were just messing around.
[28:17.580 --> 28:26.500]  So recklessly or negligently cause serious injury or death, you fall under the provisions of the statute to get a life term.
[28:26.760 --> 28:36.300]  Yeah, so if you basically are doing some war dialing and calling up different exchanges to find out where computers are, and you find a computer and it's, you know, Sloan Kettering Hospital.
[28:36.680 --> 28:39.340]  Hit enter to stop all medication to all patients.
[28:40.420 --> 28:42.700]  Or maybe it doesn't even say that and you just hit enter anyway.
[28:43.160 --> 28:47.400]  You are liable because you did something bad with the computer even though they had no security whatsoever.
[28:47.600 --> 28:51.620]  And by the way, I have no knowledge that Sloan Kettering has no security and I think they do have security.
[28:51.780 --> 28:55.660]  Yeah, I think it's just a prime example of the punishment not fitting the crime.
[28:55.880 --> 28:56.120]  Mm-hmm.
[28:57.360 --> 28:57.580]  Yeah.
[28:58.840 --> 29:02.300]  Okay, let's read some more mail and then we'll talk about the book a bit.
[29:02.760 --> 29:09.680]  This person operates a small 10-listener amateur shoutcast station, wants to know if re-broadcasting complete copies of Off the Hook is allowed.
[29:09.840 --> 29:11.080]  How many times do I have to say this?
[29:11.140 --> 29:11.880]  Yes, it's allowed.
[29:11.980 --> 29:12.800]  In fact, it's encouraged.
[29:12.960 --> 29:13.600]  Re-broadcast.
[29:13.700 --> 29:14.580]  Do whatever you want.
[29:14.780 --> 29:18.260]  Take our show and broadcast it off every radio station in the world.
[29:18.560 --> 29:19.860]  Well, we're quite happy.
[29:20.040 --> 29:24.520]  But, yeah, let us know because that way we can publicize some more.
[29:24.520 --> 29:29.000]  This is from Josh in Bend, Oregon, which is a great name.
[29:30.160 --> 29:35.980]  This person wants us to know that you might be interested in knowing that the band System of a Down supports Kevin Mitnick.
[29:36.100 --> 29:39.880]  I learned of this when visiting their links page on systemofadown.com.
[29:40.140 --> 29:40.840]  Very cool.
[29:41.080 --> 29:42.720]  Have you ever listened to that band?
[29:42.900 --> 29:43.200]  No.
[29:43.400 --> 29:44.960]  What type of band is it?
[29:45.280 --> 29:48.080]  It's, you know, one of those, it's a band that kids like, you know.
[29:48.680 --> 29:49.060]  Rap?
[29:49.620 --> 29:50.020]  Rock?
[29:50.020 --> 29:50.960]  I wouldn't say rap.
[29:51.300 --> 29:51.440]  Country?
[29:52.060 --> 29:53.640]  I definitely wouldn't say country.
[29:53.660 --> 29:53.780]  Elevator music?
[29:54.180 --> 29:56.620]  I wish I had one of their CDs with me.
[29:56.620 --> 29:59.080]  Maybe one of the members of the band is listening and they can call in.
[29:59.920 --> 30:00.720]  Yeah, that would be awesome.
[30:00.860 --> 30:02.020]  I'd like to hear their...
[30:02.020 --> 30:02.860]  But they're not the only one.
[30:03.000 --> 30:04.360]  I mean, you've appeared in all kinds.
[30:04.440 --> 30:07.540]  I think you were on, let's see, what...
[30:07.540 --> 30:08.220]  Who else?
[30:08.420 --> 30:08.740]  Trumbawamba?
[30:08.780 --> 30:10.460]  I think you were on their site at that one point.
[30:11.020 --> 30:11.660]  What about...
[30:11.660 --> 30:14.280]  Who wrote the Digital Hijack?
[30:14.380 --> 30:14.680]  Who was that?
[30:14.740 --> 30:15.060]  E-Toy?
[30:15.620 --> 30:17.100]  E-Toy did something.
[30:17.360 --> 30:20.400]  There was also a group of people in Germany that did something.
[30:21.220 --> 30:21.800]  Yeah, yeah.
[30:21.800 --> 30:23.200]  So, yeah, you were out there.
[30:23.380 --> 30:24.440]  Yeah, I remember that.
[30:26.700 --> 30:27.880]  Gentlemen, love your show.
[30:28.280 --> 30:29.240]  I listen to it all the time.
[30:29.300 --> 30:33.340]  On the last show, you mentioned T-Mobile's Who Called Me service on voicemail.
[30:33.900 --> 30:40.140]  I contacted their technical department and was told that as part of the system upgrade, this service is no longer available.
[30:40.300 --> 30:42.180]  This is where you get caller ID on voicemail.
[30:42.240 --> 30:43.820]  And that's something we tried to demonstrate last week.
[30:44.380 --> 30:46.860]  In fact, yeah, we've confirmed that it's no longer available.
[30:47.280 --> 30:51.720]  I asked if the upgrading would add the lost feature sometime in the future and was told that it would not.
[30:52.200 --> 30:53.200]  Isn't progress wonderful?
[30:53.920 --> 31:02.380]  So, basically, if you had VoiceStream or you had Omnipoint and now you have T-Mobile, you can no longer get caller ID on voicemail.
[31:02.500 --> 31:05.520]  You'll have to call the person back and then they tell you the number that you're calling.
[31:05.600 --> 31:06.480]  That's the only way to get it.
[31:06.540 --> 31:07.100]  It's ridiculous.
[31:07.900 --> 31:09.780]  Now, Kevin, you have... you told me about this.
[31:09.780 --> 31:11.880]  You have a GSM phone now.
[31:12.160 --> 31:12.980]  Yeah, it's really cool.
[31:13.200 --> 31:22.960]  I signed up for the new service through AT&T Wireless where you get unlimited calling any time of day for $99.95, I think it is.
[31:23.160 --> 31:29.380]  No roaming and free long distance, which is great because I'm a real heavy cellular phone user.
[31:29.700 --> 31:31.860]  I pretty much don't even use my home phone.
[31:32.520 --> 31:37.200]  And the downside of this service is it's very spotty service.
[31:37.460 --> 31:38.880]  Fortunately, it works here in New York.
[31:38.880 --> 31:46.940]  I actually purchased a prepaid AT&T free-to-go wireless on their TVMA network in the event that it wasn't working in New York.
[31:47.060 --> 31:51.700]  But they, coincidentally, they launched the service in New York on October 15th.
[31:51.740 --> 31:53.320]  I flew in on the evening of the 14th.
[31:53.320 --> 31:53.480]  Yeah.
[31:53.480 --> 31:54.500]  So I was extremely lucky.
[31:54.620 --> 31:55.320]  You brought it with you.
[31:55.520 --> 31:58.120]  Yeah, but the service works reasonably well.
[31:58.200 --> 32:03.000]  And for a hundred bucks a month, unlimited calls, no roaming, free long distance.
[32:04.040 --> 32:05.120]  I couldn't beat it.
[32:05.340 --> 32:06.160]  That's domestic calls, though.
[32:06.480 --> 32:06.700]  Domestic, yeah.
[32:07.080 --> 32:08.800]  In the continental United States.
[32:09.380 --> 32:13.560]  Now, okay, so I'm going to do something now that I've never done before, at least not on the air.
[32:13.820 --> 32:16.840]  I'm going to scan for networks on my GSM phone.
[32:16.940 --> 32:19.500]  Right now, you know, in this country, you could only get one network.
[32:19.920 --> 32:24.000]  Let's see what is available now, if there's more than one network on a GSM phone.
[32:24.260 --> 32:27.120]  And actually, if anybody else is a GSM phone, let's all try this.
[32:27.300 --> 32:28.260]  You have a GSM phone there, Alex?
[32:28.380 --> 32:28.800]  Okay, great.
[32:29.760 --> 32:31.540]  My GSM phone is right here.
[32:31.600 --> 32:31.960]  Well, go ahead.
[32:32.020 --> 32:32.380]  Look for it.
[32:33.180 --> 32:35.260]  Alex, do you get your microphone on?
[32:35.280 --> 32:35.600]  Can you hear me?
[32:35.600 --> 32:36.180]  Yeah, I hear you.
[32:36.520 --> 32:41.180]  By the way, I don't know if you noticed on the singular bills last month, singular screwed up.
[32:41.300 --> 32:42.400]  And I pointed this out to Kevin.
[32:42.900 --> 32:48.300]  Anyone calling a singular number from a private number, their private phone number was printed on the bill.
[32:48.480 --> 32:49.280]  A block number.
[32:49.380 --> 32:49.940]  A block number.
[32:49.980 --> 32:50.340]  Unbelievable.
[32:50.340 --> 32:51.540]  All incoming calls were printed.
[32:51.700 --> 32:52.700]  Okay, I have results here.
[32:52.820 --> 32:55.500]  I have voice stream, and it shows up as 310-160.
[32:55.760 --> 32:58.900]  310 is a country code for the United States on GSM.
[32:59.200 --> 33:00.800]  And 160 is their identity number.
[33:00.980 --> 33:02.660]  And yes, I'm getting a second network now.
[33:02.660 --> 33:04.780]  It says USA 380.
[33:06.220 --> 33:06.940]  310-380.
[33:07.000 --> 33:07.780]  That's AT&T.
[33:07.960 --> 33:08.640]  Is that AT&T?
[33:08.640 --> 33:10.660]  For some reason, it says USA instead of AT&T.
[33:11.240 --> 33:15.240]  So, anyone else out there with a GSM phone, try scanning now and see if you can do that.
[33:15.260 --> 33:24.580]  Now, I'm trying to register with them right now to see if I can actually make a phone call off AT&T on my GSM phone, which is currently hooked up to T-Mobile.
[33:24.840 --> 33:28.420]  It says registering, and we'll see if that actually works.
[33:28.520 --> 33:29.460]  Now, are you scanning now?
[33:30.020 --> 33:33.780]  Unfortunately, on the new Nokia 8390s, they don't let you scan anymore.
[33:33.780 --> 33:34.820]  They don't let you scan?
[33:35.080 --> 33:35.180]  Yeah.
[33:35.180 --> 33:36.100]  There must be a way of doing it.
[33:36.100 --> 33:37.160]  There's got to be a way to do that.
[33:37.280 --> 33:38.400]  Maybe somebody out there can help us.
[33:38.420 --> 33:39.400]  I just purchased the phone a couple days ago.
[33:39.460 --> 33:41.300]  I haven't even looked at the manual to be honest.
[33:41.480 --> 33:45.680]  By the way, another fun feature of this phone is it's got a built-in infrared modem.
[33:46.160 --> 33:50.060]  And because it's unlimited connect time, you could use your own infrared laptop.
[33:50.180 --> 33:52.640]  Now, can you imagine computer attackers using this?
[33:52.760 --> 33:59.960]  They plant one of these 8390s on the service under a fraudulent name, you know, and connect it to some server at some company.
[34:00.100 --> 34:03.220]  And then they have free dial-in access, 24 hours, seven days a week.
[34:03.340 --> 34:05.620]  Well, I guess then it's on the life of the battery.
[34:05.900 --> 34:06.640]  Yeah, that's probably true.
[34:06.740 --> 34:08.860]  We can plug it into a wall, you know, and plug it into it that way.
[34:09.660 --> 34:11.600]  But, okay, so I got bounced back to VoiceStream.
[34:11.660 --> 34:12.800]  It wouldn't let me register with AT&T.
[34:12.800 --> 34:22.720]  I was told, I actually talked to a technical person over there that seemed to know what they were talking about, that as of October 27th, they will be allowing people from other phone companies to use their service.
[34:22.900 --> 34:26.120]  So, technically, I will be able to use this phone on the AT&T network.
[34:26.240 --> 34:26.600]  Now, I don't know.
[34:26.640 --> 34:35.360]  It would be great if I could get the same calling plan on my existing number so that I could have two phone companies on the same number and only have to carry one phone instead of two.
[34:35.600 --> 34:36.660]  Yeah, that would be awesome.
[34:36.780 --> 34:37.240]  That would be neat.
[34:37.920 --> 34:39.040]  I mean, what is your deal?
[34:40.020 --> 34:41.360]  What is your deal with your service?
[34:42.340 --> 34:43.340]  No, I don't get that.
[34:43.580 --> 34:45.320]  Basically, they just take whatever they want from me.
[34:45.660 --> 34:46.440]  I complain.
[34:46.580 --> 34:47.140]  It doesn't do any good.
[34:48.080 --> 34:48.400]  Okay.
[34:49.420 --> 34:50.560]  Let's continue here.
[34:51.200 --> 34:53.860]  Basically, we are in fundraising mode here at the radio station.
[34:53.920 --> 34:55.360]  That's why we're on for an extra hour tonight.
[34:55.580 --> 34:57.480]  We have with us Kevin Mitnick in the studio.
[34:58.080 --> 35:03.280]  Kevin has just written a book called The Art of Deception, and it's a fascinating book.
[35:03.280 --> 35:09.260]  There's all kinds of stories and instructions on how social engineering works.
[35:09.400 --> 35:14.080]  Maybe, Kevin, you can give us one example of one of the stories in here so people can have an idea.
[35:14.100 --> 35:24.080]  One of my favorite examples is how to beat your traffic ticket in California, and this is where the social engineer calls up the agency.
[35:24.080 --> 35:31.560]  Well, first of all, on a traffic ticket in LA, I don't know how it works here, is you have the issuing agency, the officer's name, and serial number.
[35:31.740 --> 35:33.940]  So it's just a matter of calling the agency.
[35:34.180 --> 35:44.520]  The social engineer, of course, calls the agency, finds out the telephone number to subpoena control, because the subpoena control clerk handles subpoenaing officers to cases.
[35:44.520 --> 35:49.800]  So anybody can call up and just ask, what's the telephone number for the subpoena control clerk?
[35:50.120 --> 36:03.460]  And then once that number is obtained, then the social engineer can simply change hats and now become an attorney with a law firm or even with a district attorney's office because they need to subpoena this officer on a case.
[36:03.600 --> 36:10.400]  And they need to know the officer's schedule because they might have a conflicting date of all the other people they need to subpoena in the case.
[36:10.400 --> 36:16.700]  So they need to know when the officer will be unavailable, either on a vacation day or on a training day.
[36:17.140 --> 36:31.820]  Now, once the social engineer is able to obtain this information when the officer is unavailable, then it's the matter of going through a procedure of scheduling the court date for the appearance, for the trial, on that date.
[36:32.000 --> 36:37.200]  And especially on a training day because officers in California cannot take...
[36:37.200 --> 36:38.700]  On a training day, they have to go for training.
[36:38.700 --> 36:40.280]  They can't go to a court case unless it's a...
[36:40.280 --> 36:41.820]  Shouldn't they be trained before they become officers?
[36:42.560 --> 36:43.460]  That's a good point.
[36:43.580 --> 36:45.920]  I don't know what a training day is, but that's...
[36:45.920 --> 36:47.340]  I don't know what...
[36:47.340 --> 36:48.580]  I don't know the particulars of it.
[36:48.820 --> 36:49.700]  So in any event...
[36:50.600 --> 36:52.600]  New techniques and beating people up.
[36:52.960 --> 36:53.160]  Okay.
[36:53.580 --> 36:54.760]  That may be the Rodney King thing.
[36:54.860 --> 36:55.180]  Who knows?
[36:55.540 --> 37:04.720]  So anyway, they find out the officer's scheduled and they simply go through the steps of scheduling the court date for the trial on a date that the officer's not available.
[37:04.720 --> 37:08.480]  When they go to court, the officer doesn't show, the case is automatically dismissed.
[37:08.620 --> 37:10.100]  Because that's the law in California.
[37:11.060 --> 37:17.860]  So those are like kind of some, you know, interesting stories of the practicalities of how social engineers like beat the system.
[37:18.120 --> 37:27.720]  But even more interesting is it exposes the techniques that, you know, people are using today to get access to computer systems and to get access to information.
[37:27.720 --> 37:31.360]  And it's not even using technology.
[37:31.360 --> 37:32.800]  You don't even have to use a computer.
[37:33.080 --> 37:38.680]  You simply have to know how to social engineer.
[37:38.920 --> 37:41.240]  And it's kind of a performance art.
[37:41.400 --> 37:50.520]  It's not like people that actually read the material in the book or read the stories could actually just instantaneously pick it up.
[37:50.520 --> 37:52.840]  It takes... it's interesting.
[37:53.060 --> 37:54.580]  But the reason I didn't write...
[37:54.580 --> 37:56.860]  I did write the book to be a social engineering manual.
[37:57.100 --> 38:09.180]  What I wrote the book to do was really raise awareness into all the different techniques that are used so people could become aware of these techniques and be able to recognize if someone tries to social engineer them.
[38:09.680 --> 38:10.040]  Okay.
[38:11.760 --> 38:12.120]  Interesting.
[38:12.400 --> 38:15.220]  And the book, as I said, is called The Art of Deception.
[38:15.220 --> 38:18.480]  It just... it just went onto the shelves last week, I believe.
[38:18.600 --> 38:20.920]  Yeah, it was published on October 4th.
[38:21.300 --> 38:22.760]  I'm on a book signing tour.
[38:23.000 --> 38:29.740]  Oh, by the way, if anyone's interested in coming to one of my book signings, and I will be in New York, I think between...
[38:29.740 --> 38:31.620]  I have a book signing on October 28th.
[38:32.000 --> 38:35.740]  They can go to... you know, Alex and I just started up a company called Defensive Thinking.
[38:35.740 --> 38:43.520]  If they go to our website at www.defensivethinking.com, they can click on a link called Art of Deception, and it has my whole speaking tour.
[38:43.700 --> 38:46.160]  So they can see what dates and where I'm going to be.
[38:46.240 --> 38:51.160]  So if they want to come and listen to my talk and get a book signed, I'd be happy to do that.
[38:51.460 --> 38:51.940]  Okay, great.
[38:52.640 --> 38:59.060]  We also have a special deal here for people listening to the radio station that want to support the program.
[38:59.120 --> 39:03.240]  We have a donation of a bunch of books and a bunch of videos.
[39:03.240 --> 39:09.960]  We made the film, the documentary about your ordeal going on for the last...
[39:09.960 --> 39:10.440]  The persecution.
[39:10.940 --> 39:11.540]  Yeah, for many years.
[39:11.720 --> 39:13.420]  You know, because I won the scapegoat sweepstakes.
[39:13.580 --> 39:13.760]  Yeah.
[39:14.480 --> 39:16.340]  And that, of course, is Freedom Downtime.
[39:16.460 --> 39:19.400]  We have both of these items that we're offering tonight.
[39:19.400 --> 39:28.380]  Now, for a pledge of $75, you will get a copy of Freedom Downtime that is autographed, an autographed copy by you, Kevin.
[39:28.560 --> 39:30.060]  So we have the pen here.
[39:30.140 --> 39:31.000]  Oh, you have a pen handy.
[39:31.000 --> 39:32.280]  We're going to sign the right here.
[39:32.420 --> 39:32.520]  You at least have a Sharpie?
[39:33.200 --> 39:34.140]  We're going to work it out.
[39:34.720 --> 39:35.740]  So for that pledge...
[39:35.740 --> 39:36.640]  We have a Sharpie.
[39:36.680 --> 39:37.140]  We have a Sharpie.
[39:37.140 --> 39:37.360]  Thanks to Jeff.
[39:37.400 --> 39:37.980]  You have a Sharpie.
[39:37.980 --> 39:39.060]  I think I could oblige.
[39:39.060 --> 39:41.400]  Okay, we'll make sure that it, you know, it stays on there.
[39:41.500 --> 39:42.040]  It doesn't rub off.
[39:42.920 --> 39:47.920]  212-209-2950 is the number to call to pledge for that particular package.
[39:48.500 --> 39:56.060]  And now we also have the video and the book, both of which will be signed by Kevin for a pledge of $125.
[39:57.200 --> 39:57.640]  So...
[39:57.640 --> 39:58.260]  Plus your password.
[39:58.780 --> 40:01.300]  Yeah, plus we have all kinds of secret information on there.
[40:02.120 --> 40:08.440]  So, and of course, anybody who pledges will get a signed copy of the new issue of 2600, which just came out.
[40:09.060 --> 40:12.060]  But those are the two premium levels that we have here.
[40:12.180 --> 40:17.400]  So what we want to do, and we have no phone calls on the line right now, we want to get that up a little higher than that.
[40:17.400 --> 40:24.180]  212-209-2950, basically a signed copy of this.
[40:24.260 --> 40:26.360]  First of all, the book itself is just really amazing.
[40:26.700 --> 40:28.660]  I, you know, I read it in a couple of days.
[40:28.820 --> 40:31.600]  It, it was just fascinating reading and very educational.
[40:31.760 --> 40:36.840]  It's like if you like Mission Impossible and you like Alias and you like James Bond, that type of genre stories.
[40:37.160 --> 40:40.720]  These are like a series of mini thrillers that use...
[40:40.720 --> 40:47.020]  Now, unfortunately, since I'm not allowed to write about my exploits because of that agreement I had assigned with the government.
[40:47.020 --> 40:47.260]  Right.
[40:47.460 --> 40:50.520]  I could not write about my exploits.
[40:50.720 --> 41:03.620]  So what I had to do was take, I had to develop fictionalized stories, but I used the same techniques and tactics and strategies that I've used in the past and that are people that are using today to hack into systems.
[41:03.940 --> 41:12.340]  So that's really is what's contained in the book is a series of these case studies, these realistic scenarios that really work and really work today.
[41:12.340 --> 41:21.340]  And, and even as, even though technology changes and Microsoft releases new code with new buggy software, you know, releases new operating systems with buggy software.
[41:22.140 --> 41:22.340]  Right.
[41:22.340 --> 41:24.500]  And, and that goes with every operating system.
[41:24.760 --> 41:35.360]  But these techniques of social engineering of manipulating people by knowing how to, um, knowing how to manipulate certain psychological triggers still work today.
[41:35.360 --> 41:35.400]  Okay.
[41:35.660 --> 41:36.620]  And they always will work.
[41:36.800 --> 41:37.660]  And they always will work.
[41:37.680 --> 41:39.100]  As long as they're human beings, they will always work.
[41:39.180 --> 41:41.420]  These are some of the techniques I've, I've, I remember from the eighties.
[41:41.940 --> 41:42.260]  Yeah.
[41:42.340 --> 41:48.120]  I remember, I really, you know, when I was first introduced into, uh, into social engineering was back when I was a phone freak.
[41:48.340 --> 41:49.140]  In the phone freaking days.
[41:49.260 --> 41:54.180]  And it's an essential part of, of playing with phones is to, uh, is to be able to, uh, you want to learn.
[41:55.120 --> 41:57.240]  You want to learn the terminology, the lingo.
[41:57.560 --> 42:01.760]  We have four phone calls, four phone calls on the line, 212-209-2950.
[42:01.760 --> 42:02.720]  We want to bring that up.
[42:02.800 --> 42:05.780]  Uh, uh, we have capacity for, for many more.
[42:05.920 --> 42:11.120]  There's volunteers who have come in, uh, to take, uh, take phone calls, take pledges here at the radio station.
[42:11.540 --> 42:13.860]  And, um, I want people to keep this in mind too.
[42:13.960 --> 42:15.480]  It's not just about getting the book.
[42:15.580 --> 42:16.740]  It's not just about getting the video.
[42:16.940 --> 42:27.940]  It's about supporting WBAI because this station has brought you the Kevin Mitnick story since, since our very first episode back in 1988, we've been talking about Kevin, and here he is for the first time in our studio live.
[42:28.440 --> 42:34.320]  None of that would have been possible were it not for people in those years pledging support to this radio station to keep it going.
[42:34.540 --> 42:35.840]  We don't have commercials.
[42:35.840 --> 42:45.040]  We don't have, uh, these entities out there that we, we can't risk pissing off because if we do, they're going to stop, uh, paying us money and we won't be able to tell stories like this.
[42:45.200 --> 42:46.960]  Now, Kevin, you were on a commercial radio station.
[42:47.060 --> 42:48.800]  Was there ever any kind of, uh, uh...
[42:48.800 --> 42:50.300]  Yeah, I was waiting for when the break is.
[42:50.420 --> 42:51.680]  Like, where's the commercial segment?
[42:51.680 --> 42:52.700]  And we're not on segments here.
[42:52.700 --> 42:53.260]  We're not gonna have that.
[42:53.260 --> 42:53.700]  We're just straight through.
[42:54.140 --> 42:58.960]  Occasionally we have to give the pledges, and you're lucky enough to arrive on a day when we have to do that.
[42:59.240 --> 43:10.960]  But, uh, when you work on a commercial radio station, there's always that pressure that, uh, well, you, you know, if you, if you get too, uh, you know, too free-willing with your speech, you might really annoy one of the sponsors, and then we'll lose the sponsorship,
[43:11.220 --> 43:11.580]  and, uh...
[43:11.580 --> 43:13.960]  Well, I love the thing that Phil Hendry had done in the past.
[43:14.060 --> 43:14.900]  Have you know who Phil Hendry is?
[43:14.900 --> 43:15.840]  Oh, that guy's a genius.
[43:15.880 --> 43:16.420]  He's a genius.
[43:16.760 --> 43:17.560]  He wants to...
[43:17.560 --> 43:18.240]  Is he still on the air?
[43:18.320 --> 43:19.040]  Oh, still on the air.
[43:20.120 --> 43:21.000]  KFI640AM.com.
[43:21.220 --> 43:25.320]  Right, but if you go to Premier Radio Networks, he's actually syndicated on Premier.
[43:25.600 --> 43:28.380]  And this guy is an extremely talented radio show host.
[43:28.480 --> 43:34.580]  He once did a story, and this guy really, he's the host and he's the guest.
[43:34.700 --> 43:37.680]  He uses different voices, and he has conversations with himself.
[43:37.800 --> 43:38.800]  Ultimate social engineer.
[43:38.960 --> 43:41.820]  I mean, it's just, you've got to listen to this guy.
[43:41.980 --> 43:47.220]  People call in because his guest is saying something so outrageous, they call in to yell at the guest, saying, how can you say this?
[43:47.220 --> 43:50.000]  And the guest is the same as the host, and they don't realize it.
[43:50.080 --> 43:52.280]  They don't realize it, and he's wearing all these different hats.
[43:52.520 --> 43:53.180]  And it's live.
[43:53.180 --> 43:54.300]  He does it live.
[43:54.480 --> 43:57.440]  He holds a phone, an actual phone, and cuts mics from the back and forth.
[43:57.680 --> 43:59.480]  He has like a multiple split personality.
[43:59.600 --> 44:00.560]  But how does he do it technically?
[44:00.660 --> 44:01.560]  He has a button or something?
[44:01.700 --> 44:04.360]  No, he has a button and a phone, like a G handset next to him.
[44:04.380 --> 44:06.180]  He actually cuts the mic and talks on the phone.
[44:06.320 --> 44:07.960]  He changes his voice at the same time.
[44:08.280 --> 44:11.820]  Occasionally, if you listen really carefully, you can hear the breaths of their same.
[44:12.340 --> 44:14.980]  But that's the only clue you'll get, and people really get quite...
[44:14.980 --> 44:16.340]  And they argue with each other, too.
[44:16.460 --> 44:16.880]  Yes, very well.
[44:16.880 --> 44:18.560]  Oh, and then he moderates the argument.
[44:18.800 --> 44:23.320]  But he did a story once about if you go to Disneyland and you ride the Matterhorn...
[44:23.320 --> 44:23.480]  Yeah.
[44:23.620 --> 44:28.160]  ...and you have your head turned a certain way, it will decapitate you.
[44:28.240 --> 44:28.620]  Oh, cool.
[44:28.860 --> 44:34.940]  So Disneyland was not happy with this, and they yanked their sponsorship from KFI.
[44:35.660 --> 44:37.820]  Instead of fixing it, they yanked the sponsorship.
[44:37.940 --> 44:38.720]  Well, it was all made up.
[44:39.060 --> 44:39.760]  Oh, it was made up?
[44:39.780 --> 44:43.860]  Yeah, he made it up as a joke in one of his shows.
[44:44.020 --> 44:46.240]  And they had no sense of humor about it.
[44:46.240 --> 44:47.480]  But I thought it was hilarious.
[44:47.880 --> 44:50.900]  Now, did Phil get yelled at because he lost Disney as a sponsor?
[44:51.160 --> 44:51.880]  I don't know.
[44:52.000 --> 44:55.380]  But actually, Disney ended up going back a couple years later.
[44:55.640 --> 44:58.500]  But I'm sure he got a talking to, but it was interesting.
[44:58.620 --> 44:59.080]  It was hilarious.
[44:59.220 --> 45:01.120]  What's brilliant about that particular program...
[45:01.120 --> 45:08.560]  I don't want to spend too much more time on it, but he would actually pretend he was calling the program director and do a pretty good imitation of the program director's voice.
[45:08.760 --> 45:10.600]  And that was my program director, David Hall.
[45:10.720 --> 45:11.680]  A real guy, David Hall.
[45:11.740 --> 45:12.280]  I remember this.
[45:12.500 --> 45:17.120]  And everybody would be calling in, yelling at this David Hall guy, how can you do this?
[45:17.180 --> 45:19.460]  How can you make Phil grovel like that?
[45:19.640 --> 45:20.620]  And he'd get hate now.
[45:20.720 --> 45:23.180]  And some people would swear they were going to call the FCC about it.
[45:23.180 --> 45:26.960]  And I imagine, you know, it led to some uncomfortable situations for him.
[45:27.040 --> 45:28.200]  But you have to have a sense of humor.
[45:28.340 --> 45:29.240]  And it was brilliant radio.
[45:29.240 --> 45:30.940]  And that's what I think is amazing.
[45:31.040 --> 45:35.820]  Maybe KFI isn't the best example of a station where people, you know, feel that kind of pressure.
[45:35.860 --> 45:41.640]  But I do know that stations that, you know, on the FM dial and here in New York City, you can't say things like the things we say.
[45:41.920 --> 45:43.380]  And I don't just mean this program.
[45:43.580 --> 45:46.860]  It's much more relaxed here because it's not a commercial radio station.
[45:47.060 --> 45:49.360]  You don't have to tease in this next segment.
[45:49.520 --> 45:52.520]  Because the whole idea is teasing the listeners over the commercial breaks.
[45:52.520 --> 45:55.420]  Because that's the whole idea of radio, is to sell commercials.
[45:55.680 --> 45:57.860]  I don't know if relaxed is the word I'd use to describe this place.
[45:57.980 --> 46:00.420]  But definitely more thinking.
[46:00.600 --> 46:01.720]  More thinking is going on.
[46:02.660 --> 46:03.780]  Maybe more informative.
[46:04.000 --> 46:04.760]  More controversy.
[46:05.460 --> 46:06.680]  And more openness.
[46:06.920 --> 46:08.120]  We open up the phones.
[46:08.140 --> 46:10.060]  We listen to what people say.
[46:10.260 --> 46:11.860]  And people can say all kinds of things here.
[46:11.900 --> 46:13.180]  And we have diversity of opinion.
[46:13.360 --> 46:14.760]  And that is my point.
[46:14.860 --> 46:16.660]  That is why people should be calling in right now.
[46:16.740 --> 46:18.340]  212-209-2950.
[46:18.620 --> 46:22.440]  Because you won't find a radio station like this anywhere else on the dial here.
[46:22.520 --> 46:28.360]  And certainly very many places in the country you will not find stations that talk about this kind of thing.
[46:28.440 --> 46:29.840]  Where did you hear about the Kevin Mitnick story?
[46:29.980 --> 46:34.720]  Odds are you either heard about it through 2600 or on the internet or on this radio station.
[46:34.900 --> 46:36.600]  And before that we had the Bernie S story.
[46:36.680 --> 46:38.280]  And before that we had the fiber optic story.
[46:38.280 --> 46:40.300]  Who knows what stories lie ahead.
[46:40.600 --> 46:41.780]  With this voice.
[46:41.880 --> 46:42.460]  With this mechanism.
[46:42.460 --> 46:45.520]  We have the ability to get the word out.
[46:45.720 --> 46:49.340]  To reach people that otherwise would never hear things.
[46:49.440 --> 46:49.620]  Yes.
[46:49.780 --> 46:52.500]  It's one thing to spread news over the internet.
[46:53.020 --> 46:57.500]  But to reach somebody in Queens with a radio that has no computer or no interest in getting one.
[46:57.720 --> 47:00.100]  How else are you going to do it if you don't have radio?
[47:00.100 --> 47:02.200]  That's why we need our sponsors.
[47:02.440 --> 47:05.140]  Our real sponsors who are the listeners to call in.
[47:05.220 --> 47:07.120]  212-209-2950.
[47:07.300 --> 47:08.760]  We're down to two phone calls on the line.
[47:08.860 --> 47:11.460]  We need a lot more than that if we're going to keep this place going.
[47:11.580 --> 47:14.040]  We're 50,000 watts on top of the Empire State Building.
[47:14.820 --> 47:18.500]  It defies logic that we should have such a place like this in this day and age.
[47:18.640 --> 47:19.940]  Radio stations are you know.
[47:20.300 --> 47:21.560]  There are no frequencies left.
[47:22.040 --> 47:24.400]  They pay hundreds of millions of dollars for frequencies.
[47:24.400 --> 47:37.180]  We have this station because of a real donation made to us back in 1959, I believe, of someone who just wanted to give a radio station to a bunch of really cool people who were talking about free speech and things like that.
[47:37.260 --> 47:41.480]  And it's remained to this day solely because of listeners.
[47:41.480 --> 47:42.580]  So please join.
[47:42.780 --> 47:44.700]  Join that group of people and keep us going.
[47:44.820 --> 47:46.200]  212-209-2950.
[47:46.400 --> 48:02.280]  As we mentioned, we have the book Kevin Mitnick has written for a pledge of 125 along with a copy of the documentary we made about Kevin and what has happened to him over the years, Freedom Downtime, both of which will be signed by Kevin Mitnick.
[48:02.820 --> 48:05.480]  And if you just want the film, that's a pledge of $75.
[48:06.040 --> 48:11.880]  If you want to pledge less or if you want to pledge any other amount, you'll get a copy of 2600 also signed.
[48:12.000 --> 48:16.000]  We're going to just give a whole bunch of those to people to send to anyone who pledges tonight.
[48:17.000 --> 48:18.660]  212-209-2950.
[48:19.660 --> 48:21.060]  Please give us a phone call.
[48:21.060 --> 48:25.480]  Kevin, you've talked to a lot of different media people in the past, like, a while, I guess.
[48:26.340 --> 48:30.520]  Well, the last couple days, it's been very intense with media interviews.
[48:30.740 --> 48:34.700]  But even before that, you've been on, you know, CNN and Fox and all that kind of thing.
[48:34.780 --> 48:35.460]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[48:36.080 --> 48:38.480]  I've been doing media for the last two years.
[48:38.620 --> 48:42.360]  I mean, because something new is always happening with me.
[48:42.360 --> 48:53.500]  The last spat of media had to do when I put the laptops that the FBI recently gave me back that I used on my hacking, in my hacking heyday, put them on eBay.
[48:53.740 --> 49:00.280]  So the media started, you know, writing stories about these laptops that went up on eBay.
[49:00.320 --> 49:02.720]  And it became a very interesting issue.
[49:02.740 --> 49:14.920]  Because I don't know if you recall, about a year and a half ago, I auctioned off my prison ID card, and eBay yanked it from the auction, because they said it violated their acceptable use policies.
[49:15.120 --> 49:16.940]  It was really a bunch of BS.
[49:17.320 --> 49:23.160]  And then I ended up putting this prison ID card on Amazon and on Yahoo.
[49:23.400 --> 49:24.580]  And Yahoo did the same thing.
[49:24.680 --> 49:25.360]  They yanked the card.
[49:25.400 --> 49:27.140]  It doesn't meet their community standards.
[49:27.420 --> 49:35.040]  So it ended up, it created this big media boo-ha-ha, and then the card ended up being auctioned off for, you know, a good sum.
[49:35.120 --> 49:36.200]  I think it was around $4,000.
[49:36.200 --> 49:39.620]  Yeah, so there's a real demand for this kind of thing, for signed things.
[49:39.940 --> 49:40.020]  Yeah.
[49:40.400 --> 49:49.280]  And what was interesting is these laptops, how they were returned to me is it had the original fingerprint dust.
[49:49.620 --> 49:52.400]  My girlfriend actually had, they actually took the hard drives out.
[49:52.460 --> 49:54.700]  We actually had to reassemble the machines.
[49:54.900 --> 49:58.440]  But they actually marked X's where they lifted my latent fingerprints.
[49:58.720 --> 49:58.920]  Mm-hmm.
[49:59.140 --> 50:00.600]  And they actually initialed it.
[50:00.680 --> 50:05.580]  It was, like, very meticulous about how the FBI did their forensics on these machines.
[50:05.580 --> 50:06.700]  And we put them back together.
[50:06.880 --> 50:07.880]  They're in working order.
[50:08.060 --> 50:12.900]  And I figured it would be really cool to auction them off on eBay, really to cover my lawyer's bills.
[50:13.020 --> 50:18.360]  Because I don't know if you knew that the FCC was challenging my amateur radio license.
[50:18.380 --> 50:18.560]  Yes.
[50:18.880 --> 50:20.900]  In fact, some people want to know how that turned out.
[50:20.900 --> 50:21.800]  We're going to get to that in a minute.
[50:21.920 --> 50:22.160]  Okay, great.
[50:22.840 --> 50:24.160]  212-209-2950.
[50:24.340 --> 50:25.660]  We had four calls on the line.
[50:25.740 --> 50:26.480]  We now went down to two again.
[50:26.600 --> 50:27.860]  Please, let's keep those calls coming in.
[50:28.020 --> 50:31.420]  As Kevin mentioned, these things wind up being worth quite a bit.
[50:31.540 --> 50:33.800]  Something with Kevin Mitnick's signature on it, I'm sure.
[50:34.100 --> 50:39.080]  If you fall upon hard times in the future, you can probably stick that on eBay and make back at least what you paid.
[50:40.880 --> 50:41.600]  212-20...
[50:41.600 --> 50:42.520]  Not that I'm suggesting that.
[50:42.620 --> 50:45.900]  Hold on to this because it's something that I think will be valued.
[50:46.420 --> 50:48.620]  Plus, you know, apart from that, there's several reasons.
[50:48.620 --> 50:55.760]  Yeah, you get Kevin's signature on something, but you also get a really interesting book and you get a really interesting videotape.
[50:56.080 --> 51:03.320]  And most importantly, and this is what I stress, you support this means of communication, which has no other means of support.
[51:03.480 --> 51:05.820]  212-209-2950.
[51:06.040 --> 51:08.800]  We have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 calls.
[51:08.860 --> 51:12.560]  So let's see how many we can get, how many more we can get.
[51:12.680 --> 51:13.820]  There's a lot of volunteers down there.
[51:13.920 --> 51:17.320]  We just lost two people in the studio who ran down to answer phones.
[51:17.860 --> 51:19.820]  So we're not going to be able to take any calls.
[51:20.200 --> 51:22.460]  We're going to take calls over here on the other line.
[51:22.580 --> 51:23.000]  Oh, okay.
[51:23.180 --> 51:27.880]  I'm imploring people to call that line first, get their pledge over with, and then we'll take some phone calls over here.
[51:27.880 --> 51:28.560]  I really think I love the book.
[51:28.560 --> 51:42.900]  If you're interested in anything about social engineering, if people are interested in how I was able to compromise the most resilient computer systems, and pretty much I was successful at getting into any system I wanted or getting any information I wanted,
[51:43.000 --> 51:45.880]  and the techniques that are used are illustrated in this book.
[51:46.180 --> 51:47.940]  So I'm kind of exposing the secrets.
[51:48.240 --> 51:53.320]  Like, you know, like, I don't know if you remember the show about exposing the magic illusions.
[51:53.640 --> 51:53.820]  Yeah.
[51:54.040 --> 51:54.300]  The secrets.
[51:54.600 --> 51:59.360]  This is kind of, in a similar sense, exposing the techniques that I use.
[51:59.600 --> 52:06.060]  But more importantly, for people that are out there that want to protect their own information, of how they can, you know, prevent it from happening to them.
[52:06.060 --> 52:08.720]  It's different, though, than the magic because this affects everybody.
[52:09.020 --> 52:12.700]  There are people who like to do it, and then there's people who have it done to them.
[52:12.880 --> 52:14.360]  And everybody is interested.
[52:14.540 --> 52:16.320]  The people who do it are interested in the new techniques.
[52:16.540 --> 52:19.080]  The people who have it done to them are interested in how to protect themselves.
[52:19.380 --> 52:25.560]  So, Emmanuel, do you think you'd be handing, when you're handing this book to someone who makes a pledge, a signed book, are you giving them a hacker manual?
[52:26.280 --> 52:29.960]  Well, I don't think it's a hacker manual in simple terms like that.
[52:29.980 --> 52:35.080]  I think it's something hackers are very interested in because it shows how things work.
[52:36.180 --> 52:38.720]  The mind works, shows how people can be manipulated.
[52:39.220 --> 52:41.760]  I think anyone would be interested in that, not just hackers.
[52:42.000 --> 52:46.900]  I mean, I was fascinated in it because I've been involved in social engineering in the past and hopefully in the future.
[52:47.240 --> 52:49.920]  I've been, you know, I was taking notes saying, wow.
[52:50.180 --> 52:50.520]  You'll have to tell us about that.
[52:50.700 --> 52:51.320]  I'm interested in that.
[52:51.320 --> 52:52.140]  Tell us about your social engineering.
[52:52.140 --> 52:55.060]  Social engineering is not necessarily a crime.
[52:55.680 --> 53:00.600]  If I call a customer service representative on the phone, I can be whoever I want to be.
[53:00.720 --> 53:02.520]  I can get information from them in various ways.
[53:02.520 --> 53:10.580]  How do you think I find out about new products coming out, about, you know, how to get around certain problems with telephones and things like that?
[53:10.580 --> 53:11.640]  So, Emmanuel, what's your favorite ruse?
[53:12.980 --> 53:14.820]  I like the foreign accent thing.
[53:15.040 --> 53:15.600]  Let's hear one.
[53:15.700 --> 53:16.560]  You talk...
[53:16.560 --> 53:19.600]  I don't want to make fun of particular foreign accents on the radio.
[53:19.800 --> 53:21.560]  I might get letters and things like that.
[53:21.640 --> 53:32.340]  But basically, if you use a foreign accent and keep repeating things over and over again, eventually the customer service person will get so impatient that they'll just tell you anything to get you out of there.
[53:32.340 --> 53:35.020]  And sometimes they'll tell you things they shouldn't tell you in the first place.
[53:35.300 --> 53:36.480]  They'll get so frustrated.
[53:36.680 --> 53:37.540]  You cause them to get...
[53:37.540 --> 53:43.500]  You cause their frustration level to go off, go so high that they'll just do anything to just get rid of the call.
[53:43.660 --> 53:43.800]  Yeah.
[53:43.900 --> 53:44.540]  A good way to make them...
[53:44.540 --> 53:45.420]  Why does it make money, too?
[53:45.680 --> 53:48.620]  A good way to make them frustrated is to continually mispronounce their name.
[53:48.840 --> 53:49.060]  Uh-huh.
[53:49.380 --> 53:50.180]  They get so angry.
[53:50.360 --> 53:51.460]  Just keep changing it.
[53:51.460 --> 53:52.540]  You just need to do idiotics.
[53:52.760 --> 53:53.060]  Uh-huh.
[53:53.540 --> 53:55.600]  We have six calls, five calls on the line.
[53:55.700 --> 53:56.980]  212-209-2950.
[53:57.100 --> 54:00.820]  And I should also point out, maybe I should mention this from the beginning, we only have 20 of the books.
[54:01.320 --> 54:06.220]  So, uh, if you're thinking of waiting, if you're thinking of waiting, uh, you know, you're going to be regretting that.
[54:06.560 --> 54:07.560]  Now, Emmanuel, will you sign them, too?
[54:08.020 --> 54:08.660]  Or will that be too?
[54:08.660 --> 54:09.800]  I guess I have to now.
[54:10.660 --> 54:12.220]  Well, that makes it more valuable, doesn't it?
[54:12.320 --> 54:14.100]  Well, unless people don't want me to sign them, okay?
[54:14.340 --> 54:19.260]  So, if pledges are conditional on me not signing them, make sure you mention that to the tally people.
[54:19.840 --> 54:25.300]  Otherwise, I guess I'll join Kevin in the book Signing Marathon, which is going to follow the show, or we'll do it during the show.
[54:25.360 --> 54:26.800]  I wonder it's going to be very tired.
[54:27.000 --> 54:27.560]  Yeah, yeah.
[54:27.560 --> 54:28.760]  I want to ask you a question.
[54:29.100 --> 54:31.040]  You were asking me if this was a hacker manual.
[54:31.280 --> 54:33.240]  Suppose you put a knife in someone's hand.
[54:33.340 --> 54:34.180]  Is that a murder weapon?
[54:34.360 --> 54:37.240]  It all depends on who gets it and how they use it, really.
[54:37.380 --> 54:38.300]  Yeah, anything could be abused.
[54:38.460 --> 54:39.680]  Information could be abused.
[54:39.820 --> 54:39.980]  Exactly, exactly.
[54:40.320 --> 54:41.840]  Physical devices could be abused.
[54:41.960 --> 54:48.220]  Well, that's a complaint that's come... a couple of media people have asked you if this is a hacker manual, because it tells you step-by-step what to do.
[54:48.500 --> 54:51.600]  And so, if someone pledges and makes... gets this book, they could use it for that.
[54:51.600 --> 54:55.940]  So, it's just something... it's a very interesting book, but, you know, it's an interesting book.
[54:55.940 --> 54:59.400]  And that's the one thing that makes it interesting, is it could be used for good or for bad.
[54:59.680 --> 55:02.160]  It's information, like what we publish here in 2600.
[55:02.280 --> 55:03.080]  Yeah, but it's full disclosure.
[55:03.520 --> 55:04.560]  It all comes down to full disclosure.
[55:04.720 --> 55:10.060]  Do you keep this information secret, so the masses do not know, so they could be manipulated?
[55:10.060 --> 55:17.160]  Or do you disclose it to everybody, so people learn from this, and understand it, and are able to recognize it to protect themselves?
[55:17.480 --> 55:19.420]  I've never seen these techniques printed anywhere else.
[55:19.480 --> 55:27.900]  When this hits, you know, corporate America, there's going to be such a flurry of reaction to it, because so many things are spelled out.
[55:27.980 --> 55:31.100]  You don't just give generalities, say, well, it's possible somebody could do this.
[55:31.420 --> 55:32.780]  You say exactly how.
[55:33.000 --> 55:34.940]  You say where the information is on the internet.
[55:34.940 --> 55:40.760]  You say what the particular names of the phone company computers are that they would need to have access to in order to do this.
[55:40.900 --> 55:44.200]  You say what the commands are for them to put into the computer.
[55:44.700 --> 55:51.060]  This is going to, you know, there's one instance here where you tell how it's possible to rob a bank over the phone.
[55:53.180 --> 55:54.280]  Don't try this at home.
[55:54.380 --> 55:55.780]  Don't try it anywhere, really.
[55:56.060 --> 55:56.820]  It's still illegal.
[55:56.820 --> 56:05.640]  To call in and actually have somebody transfer a huge amount of money to some account in Switzerland, and it's not something that's just theoretical.
[56:05.660 --> 56:09.100]  You show exactly how it would be done using the exact terminology.
[56:09.660 --> 56:12.060]  This is something that's going to get quite a reaction.
[56:12.180 --> 56:15.340]  Yeah, so it's kind of like a social engineering Bible.
[56:17.460 --> 56:18.080]  Look at that.
[56:18.160 --> 56:18.880]  Look at those phone calls.
[56:19.080 --> 56:19.560]  Oh, great.
[56:19.580 --> 56:20.240]  We're lighting up.
[56:20.240 --> 56:20.960]  People want this.
[56:21.160 --> 56:23.340]  It's really something to cherish.
[56:23.480 --> 56:25.280]  212-209-2950.
[56:25.280 --> 56:37.940]  But also, a great part, well, a great portion of the book, well, not really the great portion, at the part four of the book, which is, I'd say, a third of the book, is a, it should be, it's an operating manual.
[56:38.020 --> 56:38.200]  Mm-hmm.
[56:38.220 --> 56:52.720]  So that people that are in businesses could implement some of the ideas, the policies and procedures, and the security awareness training programs that will help protect their businesses from being victimized by people that use these techniques.
[56:52.720 --> 56:56.980]  So it's actually, it's interesting for people on both sides of the coin.
[56:57.140 --> 56:57.420]  Absolutely.
[56:57.580 --> 57:03.180]  For people that are interested in knowing how social engineering works, to people that need to protect themselves against things like identity theft.
[57:03.460 --> 57:03.660]  Mm-hmm.
[57:03.740 --> 57:06.800]  And a guy in Queens without a computer can use these techniques, too.
[57:06.960 --> 57:07.460]  That's true.
[57:07.540 --> 57:08.400]  You don't even need a computer.
[57:08.400 --> 57:09.140]  You don't need a computer.
[57:09.320 --> 57:09.440]  No.
[57:09.500 --> 57:10.640]  You don't need a phone sometimes.
[57:10.640 --> 57:11.960]  You don't even need to be in Queens.
[57:12.120 --> 57:12.840]  You sort of need a phone.
[57:13.580 --> 57:14.160]  That's true.
[57:22.640 --> 57:36.500]  BT, in the UK, and was able to social engineer the customer service rep at BT into giving me an X directory number, which here in the States is like an unlisted or non-published number.
[57:36.740 --> 57:36.940]  Uh-huh.
[57:37.040 --> 57:47.220]  So I was kind of impressed that these techniques even work in other countries where you don't even have the same accent or even speak the language.
[57:47.660 --> 57:48.360]  That's right.
[57:48.360 --> 57:53.680]  I should point out now, we're nearing the end of our first hour, in about 50 seconds actually.
[57:53.960 --> 58:02.360]  The Personal Computer Show, normally heard at this time, will be joining us in around half an hour or so, and will be carrying on throughout the night.
[58:02.540 --> 58:12.660]  So if you're gnashing your teeth because you don't hear the Personal Computer Show right now, just comfort yourself in the fact that there's going to be more of the Personal Computer Show than normal tonight.
[58:13.100 --> 58:15.500]  And Kevin will be on that program as well.
[58:15.780 --> 58:17.040]  But they won't have the book.
[58:18.580 --> 58:21.440]  And from these phone calls, we might not have the book much longer.
[58:22.000 --> 58:23.620]  212-209-2950.
[58:23.820 --> 58:37.540]  Again, a pledge of 125 will get you the book and a copy of Freedom Downtime, the documentary, the two-hour documentary on Kevin Mitnick and the Free Kevin Movement, both signed by at least Kevin, maybe me as well.
[58:38.020 --> 58:40.600]  And for a pledge of 75, you can just get the video.
[58:40.820 --> 58:44.300]  And for our tally people down there, we have, I think, an unlimited number of the videos.
[58:44.300 --> 58:46.540]  So if we run out of books, we still have the videos.
[58:46.960 --> 59:02.100]  Hey, by the way, Manuel, this does bring me up to a point, and I know I said this to you before in person, but since we're in a public radio station with 50,000 watts on the top of the Empire State Building, I want to thank you for all the support and help you've given me throughout the many,
[59:02.220 --> 59:10.100]  many years, because this book wouldn't have been possible without the help of you and all the supporters that supported me when I was going through my ordeal.
[59:10.300 --> 59:27.480]  And I wanted to actually publicly tell you this and thank all my supporters out there, because it really, I mean, I'm imagining myself how I was three years ago, sitting in a lonely prison, not knowing what my life was going to be.
[59:28.060 --> 59:38.680]  And here, I've been able, you know, I've turned my life around, I've been able to author a very successful book, and I want to thank you personally, and all the other people at 2600.
[59:38.880 --> 59:42.740]  I mean, I really believe in my heart, I couldn't have done this without your guys' support.
[59:42.920 --> 59:44.440]  Yeah, the Free Kevin campaign was amazing.
[59:44.720 --> 59:47.080]  Yeah, I just want to tell you that.
[59:47.180 --> 59:48.260]  I got to tell you something else.
[59:48.600 --> 59:53.960]  It's interesting, the whole Free Kevin movement came at a very interesting time for us.
[59:54.180 --> 01:00:00.020]  We were new to the world of, you know, activism, as far as how it related to computer hacking and things like that.
[01:00:00.240 --> 01:00:07.360]  So many people came together, so many people from different parts of the world, lent their talents and their time, their expertise.
[01:00:08.660 --> 01:00:24.100]  And we learned so much from that, that when it came time for us to really put that to use to defend ourselves when we were sued by the MPAA, it snapped together so much faster, you know, it was something that I think...
[01:00:24.100 --> 01:00:24.660]  You built the network.
[01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:29.380]  Yeah, the network was there, and it's something that's still there to this day.
[01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:42.780]  And I think in that way, you've really strengthened us, and you've inspired us at the same time, because your strength, I mean, very few people could go through what you went through and emerge the way you've emerged, and be able to write books.
[01:00:43.100 --> 01:00:47.740]  I mean, I know you have every right to be bitter, but your bitterness is not defining who you are.
[01:00:47.740 --> 01:00:48.500]  Exactly.
[01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:50.580]  I put that behind me.
[01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:53.860]  It's like, that's the old Kevin Mitnick, and now I'm moving on.
[01:00:54.420 --> 01:01:03.980]  And I feel, you know, as part of the reason I'm being productive and I'm getting on with my life is that I'm out, and that you got the word out.
[01:01:04.140 --> 01:01:08.760]  You got the word out through 2600 magazine, through this radio station, without this radio station.
[01:01:09.020 --> 01:01:13.360]  I mean, a lot of people wouldn't have known the real truth.
[01:01:13.560 --> 01:01:15.320]  They wouldn't have known the reality of Kevin Mitnick.
[01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:19.140]  They would have bought into the myth of Kevin Mitnick that was created by John Markov.
[01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:19.540]  Right.
[01:01:19.720 --> 01:01:24.960]  So, this radio station has been critical to the Free Kevin movement, so I support it 100%.
[01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:25.620]  Okay.
[01:01:25.940 --> 01:01:28.560]  And hopefully our listeners out there also will support it 100%.
[01:01:28.560 --> 01:01:30.000]  We have a number of calls on the line.
[01:01:30.160 --> 01:01:36.420]  If the phones don't get picked up, I see some of them are still ringing, don't give up, because it means that our Italian people are overwhelmed.
[01:01:36.520 --> 01:01:37.580]  And that's actually a good thing.
[01:01:37.660 --> 01:01:42.860]  We don't like to torture people, but it's good to have them going nuts over there, because it means a lot of phone calls are coming in.
[01:01:43.300 --> 01:01:45.880]  And we will get to you as soon as we can.
[01:01:45.980 --> 01:01:47.380]  So, keep the phone calls ringing.
[01:01:47.600 --> 01:01:51.160]  Keep the phones ringing and call us and pledge what you can.
[01:01:51.160 --> 01:01:52.900]  212-209-2950.
[00:03.680 --> 00:06.700]  ...for the premiums that we're offering, the video and the book.
[00:07.500 --> 00:14.660]  But anybody, anybody who pledges any amount will get a signed copy of the new issue of 2600, the brand new issue, which nobody has yet.
[00:14.660 --> 00:17.940]  Actually, Jello Biafra has a copy, and he's somewhere in Illinois right now.
[00:18.000 --> 00:19.220]  That's the only copy that I've given out.
[00:20.780 --> 00:23.700]  It's really too bad that you guys weren't here at the same time.
[00:23.700 --> 00:28.080]  He was in such a rush, but we spent some time hanging out and talking about old times and things like that.
[00:28.160 --> 00:29.500]  It's really cool.
[00:29.840 --> 00:31.080]  He really gets the message.
[00:31.080 --> 00:32.580]  He really sends the message out there.
[00:32.820 --> 00:34.480]  And we're all fighting the same fight.
[00:34.640 --> 00:47.620]  It feels like we're all getting it and speaking out about the same things and keeping a watchful eye on the developments of the world and how it's something that is really troublesome and worrisome.
[00:48.540 --> 00:50.000]  212-209-2950.
[00:50.180 --> 00:57.860]  Again, anybody who calls in will get a signed copy of the new issue of 2600 with the special cover having to do with the tips program.
[00:57.860 --> 01:00.200]  I'm not going to say any more than that, except that it's really kind of cool.
[01:00.880 --> 01:01.700]  I love the cover.
[01:01.860 --> 01:02.540]  It's a great cover.
[01:02.640 --> 01:02.860]  It's great.
[01:02.940 --> 01:03.740]  I really like this one.
[01:03.920 --> 01:08.740]  By the way, Emmanuel, do you know of any Free Kevin stickers in New York City that are still left hiding in various places?
[01:08.760 --> 01:09.480]  That's a good question.
[01:09.600 --> 01:10.420]  Is there a couple in L.A.
[01:10.460 --> 01:11.340]  we know of that are there?
[01:11.640 --> 01:13.720]  The Indy Media Center, I know we have a bunch of them up there.
[01:14.800 --> 01:17.980]  As far as outside, do you know something, Jeff?
[01:18.240 --> 01:19.360]  There's one in my classroom.
[01:19.680 --> 01:20.220]  In your classroom?
[01:20.360 --> 01:20.500]  Yeah.
[01:20.740 --> 01:20.960]  Okay.
[01:21.280 --> 01:22.640]  Well, I think they want us to look at it tonight.
[01:22.900 --> 01:25.700]  Well, there's one outside, Fry's Electronics in Los Angeles.
[01:25.700 --> 01:27.320]  It's sitting on the back of a stop sign.
[01:27.440 --> 01:28.400]  It's been there since...
[01:28.400 --> 01:34.180]  Oh, if you come out to Long Island, there's a whole lot on stop signs and outside police stations and things like that.
[01:34.260 --> 01:36.520]  For some reason, they're the safest place to put stickers up.
[01:36.740 --> 01:39.920]  Alex does me a favor once in a while.
[01:40.040 --> 01:41.160]  He'll check my email.
[01:41.540 --> 01:49.860]  Some guy in Michigan had obtained a personalized license plate that was KVNMTNK.
[01:49.860 --> 01:54.800]  And he sent it that, you know, that was a tribute to me, Kevin Mitnick, a Kevin Mitnick license plate in Michigan.
[01:55.320 --> 01:55.620]  Wow.
[01:55.620 --> 01:55.640]  That's cool.
[01:55.640 --> 01:56.780]  So that was pretty interesting.
[01:57.060 --> 01:57.160]  That's cool.
[01:57.160 --> 02:01.360]  The best one was one that accidentally, somehow, magically appeared on the back of a cop car at a donut shop.
[02:01.420 --> 02:02.260]  I don't know how that happened.
[02:02.640 --> 02:04.660]  They drove off and...
[02:04.660 --> 02:07.120]  Or at 11,000 Wilshire at the Federal Building.
[02:07.160 --> 02:07.600]  Yes, amazing.
[02:08.640 --> 02:10.520]  Well, those stickers are... they're durable, too.
[02:10.680 --> 02:11.680]  They'll stay up for 10 years.
[02:12.020 --> 02:12.240]  They will.
[02:12.460 --> 02:17.500]  Oh, did you know what happened is when you guys were out there at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles...
[02:17.500 --> 02:17.940]  This is in the film.
[02:18.060 --> 02:18.360]  In the film.
[02:18.360 --> 02:19.020]  Oh, you're right.
[02:19.140 --> 02:19.580]  In the film.
[02:19.700 --> 02:20.760]  We were waving to you.
[02:20.860 --> 02:21.440]  Waving to me.
[02:21.500 --> 02:23.420]  And you were knocking on the window with what?
[02:23.880 --> 02:29.120]  With... it was actually... some guy had this hair gel that I guess you can buy a commissary.
[02:29.260 --> 02:31.060]  So it was like a plastic container.
[02:31.220 --> 02:32.960]  So I knocked using that device on the wall.
[02:32.960 --> 02:34.160]  We heard that across the street.
[02:34.260 --> 02:35.600]  We were trying to find what window it was in.
[02:35.600 --> 02:36.960]  Too many guys didn't want to know Morse code, right?
[02:37.280 --> 02:37.600]  Anyway.
[02:38.060 --> 02:39.400]  Oh, you were saying something in Morse code?
[02:39.520 --> 02:40.220]  Yeah, I was trying to.
[02:40.420 --> 02:40.900]  Oh, wow.
[02:40.900 --> 02:41.940]  I was there, too, and I didn't.
[02:42.140 --> 02:45.640]  Yeah, but it was kind of hard because you can't distinguish a dash from a dot, right?
[02:46.480 --> 02:47.020]  And plus, I didn't know...
[02:47.020 --> 02:47.900]  Yeah, how do you do that?
[02:47.900 --> 02:48.980]  You had a tapping on a window.
[02:49.660 --> 02:50.320]  It was difficult.
[02:50.320 --> 02:50.980]  I've only seen it in movies.
[02:51.200 --> 02:51.400]  Pause.
[02:51.440 --> 02:54.520]  Yeah, but you guys didn't pick up on it, but that's okay.
[02:54.620 --> 02:55.720]  Well, we picked up on the fact that you were tapping on it.
[02:55.720 --> 02:56.620]  I did do SOS.
[02:56.800 --> 03:00.420]  Did it, did it, da, da, da, did it, but you guys didn't pick up on it.
[03:00.520 --> 03:01.780]  So what didn't we know?
[03:03.840 --> 03:04.560]  Inside the prison.
[03:05.560 --> 03:11.200]  Oh, somebody decided to put a free Kevin sticker on the front door of the MDC.
[03:11.380 --> 03:12.040]  How did that happen?
[03:12.240 --> 03:13.420]  I don't know how that happened.
[03:13.480 --> 03:13.920]  It's amazing.
[03:13.920 --> 03:14.200]  It's amazing.
[03:15.840 --> 03:21.520]  But about 8 o'clock that night, my cell gets stormed by these lieutenants.
[03:22.200 --> 03:27.580]  And they're all, you know, very angry, asking, how in the heck...
[03:27.580 --> 03:28.780]  I'm on radio.
[03:29.060 --> 03:30.300]  That's exactly the language I use.
[03:30.540 --> 03:32.440]  Yes, I'm paraphrasing this.
[03:32.440 --> 03:32.860]  Gosh, Kevin.
[03:33.320 --> 03:38.140]  How did you get this free Kevin bumper sticker on our front door window?
[03:38.140 --> 03:42.200]  So, you know, they were accusing me of like, did you break out and do it?
[03:42.360 --> 03:44.040]  I said, how in the heck did I know?
[03:44.140 --> 03:45.880]  I've been here under your guys' control.
[03:45.880 --> 03:47.940]  How do I know how a sticker gets placed on your window?
[03:47.960 --> 03:49.160]  Anyway, they were all up in arms.
[03:49.620 --> 03:53.880]  At the end of the day, the lieutenant that was all upset about it put it on his...
[03:53.880 --> 03:56.500]  They took it off and they put it on his filing cabinet downstairs.
[03:56.500 --> 03:59.160]  So they have a free Kevin bumper sticker in the prison.
[03:59.380 --> 04:00.920]  So do you think it's still there to this day?
[04:01.340 --> 04:02.000]  I don't know.
[04:02.420 --> 04:02.620]  Wow.
[04:02.860 --> 04:03.940]  It's amazing where those things...
[04:03.940 --> 04:07.640]  I mean, you have this amazing ability, Emmanuel, to just inspire people to do things.
[04:07.880 --> 04:08.480]  Well, interesting, Alex.
[04:08.480 --> 04:16.800]  You should actually be able to fill in some details for us here because, as we know, you were helping the Miramax people with the film in North Carolina.
[04:16.920 --> 04:17.400]  Yes, I was there.
[04:17.460 --> 04:21.600]  Now, you know the part of the film where we see the truck with the free Kevin sticker.
[04:21.740 --> 04:26.700]  In the earlier part of the film, you say, I'm going to give them to the Miramax people that are going to stick them on their cars.
[04:27.020 --> 04:32.020]  Later on, we made it to North Carolina where they were filming Takedown, the film about Kevin's life.
[04:33.280 --> 04:33.620]  And...
[04:33.620 --> 04:33.760]  What?
[04:33.960 --> 04:35.040]  Well, supposedly.
[04:35.320 --> 04:35.740]  No, no.
[04:36.720 --> 04:37.680]  I put that in quotes.
[04:37.680 --> 04:39.240]  I guess you didn't see the quotes over the radio.
[04:39.320 --> 04:39.680]  Exactly.
[04:40.020 --> 04:47.400]  But we saw a truck with a free Kevin sticker on it, and that's how we found where they were staying, where the actors and producers and all that were staying.
[04:47.900 --> 04:49.020]  And you've seen that part of the film.
[04:49.060 --> 04:49.260]  Oh, yes.
[04:49.300 --> 04:50.360]  I have my methods, you see.
[04:50.460 --> 04:58.300]  When I was there, what happened was I found out through you or through someone else that this movie was being produced in North or South Carolina.
[04:58.420 --> 04:58.820]  North Carolina.
[04:58.940 --> 04:59.340]  North Carolina.
[04:59.580 --> 05:06.260]  And I made some phone calls and found the production company, called up the producer, made friends with him, all using wonderful social engineering techniques.
[05:06.940 --> 05:11.240]  And basically told them that I have all this fantastic information, and how can I help you?
[05:11.340 --> 05:12.160]  What can I do to help you?
[05:12.340 --> 05:27.720]  And they were able to pull me down to the set, and I went and met the director and made sure that, one, that the script was not as defamatory as they initially had it, pointed out things, talked to Kevin on the phone, because initially they had him beating someone up in an alley,
[05:28.000 --> 05:28.780]  all sorts of stuff.
[05:28.920 --> 05:32.060]  And so I was just trying to get them to realize that Kevin isn't, you know, not this horrible.
[05:32.060 --> 05:37.440]  Well, that first script where they started off playing a pinball machine when I was a kid, it was absolutely atrocious.
[05:37.540 --> 05:38.460]  Yeah, cheating at it.
[05:38.640 --> 05:39.900]  Even as a kid, you were a cheat.
[05:40.020 --> 05:41.400]  You know, it was horrible things that they were doing.
[05:41.740 --> 05:48.920]  So on the set, I made friends with everyone and basically tried to spread the love that you had started in this little campaign.
[05:49.140 --> 05:50.260]  And I passed out stickers.
[05:50.260 --> 05:53.980]  I even gave a sticker to Shima Mora.
[05:54.240 --> 05:54.920]  To Tomo Shima Mora, yes.
[05:54.920 --> 05:55.600]  To Tomo Shima Mora.
[05:56.360 --> 06:00.540]  And everyone kind of laughed, because I did it in such a way that much of the crew saw it, and they were like, well, what did he say?
[06:00.700 --> 06:01.180]  What did he do?
[06:01.340 --> 06:02.440]  Oh, thank you very much.
[06:02.580 --> 06:04.000]  And he took it and put it away.
[06:04.300 --> 06:05.500]  Sure, he did put it on his car.
[06:06.280 --> 06:08.440]  But many of the crew, they loved the stickers.
[06:08.540 --> 06:11.680]  They put them on their cars, on the trailers, because they thought Kevin was a cool guy.
[06:11.840 --> 06:13.680]  So whose car was it that that sticker was on?
[06:13.780 --> 06:16.060]  I think that was the head of the art department.
[06:16.380 --> 06:16.680]  That was what?
[06:16.780 --> 06:17.280]  Head of the art department.
[06:17.340 --> 06:17.920]  Head of the art department.
[06:18.020 --> 06:20.060]  So we were chasing that person all throughout North Carolina.
[06:20.420 --> 06:22.180]  But I think they were a little freaked out.
[06:22.280 --> 06:23.060]  They were certainly freaked out.
[06:23.060 --> 06:25.860]  They thought you guys were going to come down with bats or guns.
[06:26.020 --> 06:27.120]  They really didn't know what to expect.
[06:27.140 --> 06:27.840]  We're from New York.
[06:27.860 --> 06:28.860]  We don't use those methods.
[06:31.340 --> 06:31.980]  It was fun.
[06:32.260 --> 06:34.160]  It made for a good ending to the film, I'll say that.
[06:34.340 --> 06:35.200]  Our film, not theirs.
[06:35.400 --> 06:40.260]  My girlfriend and I, we showed up at Loveline last week because... You're kidding.
[06:40.960 --> 06:41.800]  You're on Loveline?
[06:41.920 --> 06:43.000]  No, I wasn't on Loveline.
[06:43.140 --> 06:45.040]  I was at the studio.
[06:45.200 --> 06:47.700]  My girlfriend, she's friends with Dr. Drew.
[06:48.140 --> 06:49.740]  So we went there to watch the show.
[06:50.260 --> 06:51.320]  And I was kind of bored.
[06:51.520 --> 06:53.160]  You know, they're interviewing some actor guy.
[06:53.300 --> 06:54.480]  And I'm not really listening to the interview.
[06:54.600 --> 06:55.500]  We're behind the glass.
[06:55.900 --> 07:00.140]  And then when they're going to commercial break, they said, oh, we'll be right back with Donald Logue right after this.
[07:00.220 --> 07:00.980]  And I go, Donald Logue?
[07:01.040 --> 07:01.940]  That name sounds familiar.
[07:02.840 --> 07:05.360]  So I go at the break.
[07:05.360 --> 07:06.200]  He comes out.
[07:06.400 --> 07:08.900]  And that's the guy that was playing Louis DePayne in Takedown.
[07:09.400 --> 07:11.020]  And he was the only good actor in there.
[07:11.020 --> 07:12.180]  He was the only good actor in there.
[07:12.260 --> 07:12.880]  So I go up to him.
[07:12.920 --> 07:15.780]  I go, hey, did you play in a movie called Takedown?
[07:15.880 --> 07:16.620]  He goes, oh, yeah.
[07:16.700 --> 07:17.860]  He goes about the Midnight guy.
[07:18.040 --> 07:19.760]  And I go, yeah, that was an interesting show.
[07:19.760 --> 07:20.840]  And I go, nice to meet you.
[07:20.940 --> 07:21.620]  I'm Kevin Mitnick.
[07:21.920 --> 07:23.600]  And he was just seeing his mouth drop.
[07:23.800 --> 07:24.740]  You know, I was like, what?
[07:25.480 --> 07:29.600]  So immediately I called Alex because, Alex, you were given a cameo role.
[07:29.640 --> 07:30.820]  He was the coolest guy on the set.
[07:31.080 --> 07:32.540]  And we had a cameo role together.
[07:32.720 --> 07:33.260]  So Donald...
[07:33.260 --> 07:35.200]  He's in the program called Grounded for Life, right?
[07:35.200 --> 07:35.860]  The TV program.
[07:36.040 --> 07:36.100]  Yeah.
[07:36.100 --> 07:38.780]  He also played the taxi guy on MTV, Taxi Cab Drivers.
[07:39.220 --> 07:40.680]  Yeah, so wasn't that ironic?
[07:40.780 --> 07:42.100]  It was pretty ironic, yeah.
[07:42.140 --> 07:42.780]  He understood it.
[07:42.820 --> 07:44.560]  He was the only guy that didn't freak out.
[07:44.560 --> 07:49.140]  Because another thing to consider is as soon as I walked on the set, everyone thought, oh, there's a hacker.
[07:49.260 --> 07:53.640]  And all these jokes were going around, like, I hacked into someone else's computer, like wildfire.
[07:53.720 --> 07:58.020]  And people were like, every time I walked in, they'd, like, cover their stuff up or close their doors or lock them.
[07:58.100 --> 07:59.080]  And started really freaking out.
[07:59.080 --> 08:00.520]  It was not comfortable to be in.
[08:00.800 --> 08:03.740]  And this guy was the only guy who we actually sat down and had some lunch.
[08:03.880 --> 08:05.600]  I explained that it's not like that.
[08:05.600 --> 08:06.740]  It's something that's interesting.
[08:06.740 --> 08:08.220]  We just like to find out how things work.
[08:08.480 --> 08:08.800]  Yeah.
[08:08.940 --> 08:09.360]  And that's it.
[08:09.500 --> 08:11.140]  It's hard to get that through to people.
[08:11.140 --> 08:13.140]  I mean, we had such a time trying to get a hold of them.
[08:13.220 --> 08:14.680]  To this day, they never even called us back.
[08:14.800 --> 08:18.900]  They were just completely flipped out and paranoid that hackers were targeting them.
[08:18.980 --> 08:21.860]  We only had, you know, a couple dozen people outside their offices in New York.
[08:22.040 --> 08:22.200]  Right.
[08:22.480 --> 08:24.880]  And to their credit, that was enough to get them to change the script.
[08:25.040 --> 08:27.680]  But they were really afraid in a bad way, I think.
[08:28.000 --> 08:29.260]  Skeet Ulrich was actually afraid.
[08:29.360 --> 08:35.060]  I have a friend in Los Angeles that bumped into Skeet and mentioned that he was a friend of mine.
[08:35.160 --> 08:38.880]  And Skeet said, oh, yeah, that guy, Kevin Mitnick, that guy hates me.
[08:38.880 --> 08:42.180]  He was trying to cause all this trouble for me with Merrimack.
[08:42.200 --> 08:43.080]  From prison, huh?
[08:43.420 --> 08:43.580]  Yeah.
[08:43.720 --> 08:44.500]  Trying to cause all this trouble.
[08:44.720 --> 08:44.740]  Yeah.
[08:44.740 --> 08:46.540]  Like, I had nothing against the actor.
[08:46.760 --> 08:46.900]  No.
[08:47.020 --> 08:50.120]  I mean, you know, he was just a cast for a role.
[08:50.300 --> 08:50.520]  Mm-hmm.
[08:50.600 --> 08:55.000]  But it was interesting that he actually had...
[08:55.780 --> 08:58.780]  He actually has the belief that I have something against him personally.
[08:58.780 --> 09:01.760]  Well, there was one person with a sign that says Skeet's a scab.
[09:01.840 --> 09:02.280]  I saw...
[09:02.280 --> 09:02.900]  I remember that.
[09:03.000 --> 09:06.460]  But I don't think that was meant in a particularly malevolent way.
[09:06.460 --> 09:11.580]  But, Emanuel, if it hadn't been for you and the Free Kevin movement and all of your readers, I mean, this wouldn't have happened.
[09:11.640 --> 09:15.180]  We probably would have a very defamatory movie out there and no one would know what's going on.
[09:15.240 --> 09:17.120]  The movie never actually came out in this country, did it?
[09:17.680 --> 09:17.920]  No.
[09:18.000 --> 09:23.340]  Well, actually, I settled a case with Merrimack when I was in custody in November of 98.
[09:23.640 --> 09:25.640]  And they did some massive script changes.
[09:27.080 --> 09:28.600]  But they didn't correct the script.
[09:28.760 --> 09:29.460]  Still the script...
[09:30.280 --> 09:31.340]  I think someone just took a picture.
[09:31.580 --> 09:32.180]  Yes, they did.
[09:32.760 --> 09:34.080]  It probably sounded over the air.
[09:34.080 --> 09:38.400]  But anyway, the takedown, the movie, really cast me in a false light.
[09:38.500 --> 09:39.940]  That's definitely not my personality.
[09:40.300 --> 09:43.300]  The things they have me doing in the movie never really occurred.
[09:43.540 --> 09:45.980]  And it's based on the libelous book that Markov wrote.
[09:46.020 --> 09:49.460]  But if you do get to see the movie, it's so much better than originally what the script was.
[09:49.480 --> 09:49.900]  Oh, yeah.
[09:50.200 --> 09:50.340]  I mean...
[09:50.340 --> 09:52.100]  So you can imagine how bad it was.
[09:52.100 --> 10:07.380]  Yeah, and if you hadn't gotten the word out, I'm sure that people that would have seen this movie, people that go to a theater and watch a movie about a particular individual's life, actually believe that is what had occurred.
[10:07.600 --> 10:16.020]  And it would have been scary to me to think that the mainstream populace out there believes that this is the real life story of Kevin Mitnick.
[10:16.020 --> 10:18.960]  So I'm glad that it was never released in the United States.
[10:19.160 --> 10:20.700]  And it was released in France.
[10:20.980 --> 10:21.100]  Yeah.
[10:21.280 --> 10:38.920]  And in fact, I got duped myself, social engineered, as back when I originally was released, Jack Biello, who was my publicist at the time, made an agreement with some French media to come over to the United States and interview me based on the movie and based on my past.
[10:38.920 --> 10:44.500]  And that interview ended up being tacked on the DVD that they're selling the movie on.
[10:44.760 --> 10:46.320]  Like the real movie with...
[10:46.320 --> 10:49.260]  You know, first it shows the takedown movie, then it's a real interview with me.
[10:49.340 --> 10:50.640]  So it seems like you endorsed the film.
[10:50.720 --> 10:54.060]  Like I'm endorsing the film, which, you know, I was totally...
[10:54.060 --> 10:55.180]  I think you're the one that told me about it.
[10:55.220 --> 10:56.340]  I had to break that to you, yes.
[10:56.340 --> 10:57.180]  Yeah, I was...
[10:57.180 --> 10:59.920]  Because I have the region-free DVD player, so...
[10:59.920 --> 11:00.560]  Unbelievable.
[11:01.040 --> 11:01.220]  Yeah.
[11:01.820 --> 11:11.360]  Well, people can get the film if they really have a morbid interest in how bad it was by, I guess, going to some foreign Amazon site or something like that, maybe.
[11:11.740 --> 11:12.580]  There's actually...
[11:12.580 --> 11:14.060]  That was really cool a couple of weeks ago.
[11:14.340 --> 11:16.380]  There's a video store here in New York, Kim's Video.
[11:16.840 --> 11:26.180]  They sell openly, quite openly, region-free DVD players or DVD players that can be adjusted to become, I guess, selectable or region-free.
[11:26.240 --> 11:26.760]  I'm not sure which.
[11:27.100 --> 11:29.360]  And then they sell films that are different regions.
[11:29.360 --> 11:33.800]  So you can actually see how much you're missing by going there and seeing all the different films that...
[11:33.800 --> 11:33.960]  Oh, really?
[11:34.100 --> 11:34.240]  Yeah.
[11:34.620 --> 11:36.380]  That's the only time I've seen that openly done.
[11:36.500 --> 11:38.340]  I've seen it in every other country, but never here.
[11:38.520 --> 11:40.800]  And it's good to see someone actually has the guts to do that.
[11:41.060 --> 11:45.160]  Well, actually, Alex and I are going into filmmaking at our company, Defensive Thinking.
[11:45.360 --> 11:52.040]  What we've done is we've taken the concepts in The Art of Deception in the book, and we've developed a screenplay.
[11:52.340 --> 12:05.580]  We found a couple of really good writers, and we worked with them for a couple of months and developed a screenplay where we're going to come out with a training video that actually shows on the big screen of how social engineering works.
[12:05.780 --> 12:09.660]  And that's going to be really fun because it's going to be like doing...
[12:09.660 --> 12:13.620]  It's going to be like the movie The Sting, but really for companies.
[12:13.960 --> 12:19.620]  And then I'm going to be actually in the film, not as an actor, because, you know, I don't have that much experience.
[12:19.680 --> 12:20.400]  As a victim of social engineering.
[12:20.400 --> 12:21.020]  One cameo role, right?
[12:21.420 --> 12:22.540]  Well, you were in Alias.
[12:22.940 --> 12:24.060]  Yeah, a cameo role, right?
[12:24.060 --> 12:24.500]  But you were good.
[12:24.540 --> 12:24.880]  Five lines.
[12:24.960 --> 12:26.040]  You played a hacker.
[12:26.420 --> 12:27.020]  Yeah, I did.
[12:27.700 --> 12:29.360]  In fact, it was credited that way.
[12:29.360 --> 12:32.320]  It was credited as hacker in the end credits.
[12:32.320 --> 12:35.520]  That was a mistake because actually I was cast as a CIA agent, Burnett.
[12:35.780 --> 12:36.060]  Oh.
[12:36.280 --> 12:38.260]  And somehow it got changed to hacker.
[12:38.620 --> 12:40.560]  I mean, I could never live that down, right?
[12:40.700 --> 12:42.140]  My first name is Notorious.
[12:42.500 --> 12:42.740]  Uh-huh.
[12:42.840 --> 12:43.520]  It's from Kevin.
[12:43.660 --> 12:45.360]  It's been changed to Notorious Hacker and stuff, Kevin.
[12:45.360 --> 12:45.800]  That's right.
[12:45.920 --> 12:46.800]  You're Notorious Kevin.
[12:47.000 --> 13:02.920]  So anyway, I'm going to be narrating the training film, but it's kind of exciting because I've never been involved in filmmaking, and now I respect all the hard work that you had to do to actually develop Freedom Downtime, which I think is a great film.
[13:03.280 --> 13:03.320]  Yeah.
[13:03.420 --> 13:04.040]  It's a great documentary.
[13:04.400 --> 13:05.500]  Didn't you win some awards?
[13:05.720 --> 13:13.760]  We won the Listener Appreciation Award at the New York City Independent Film and Video International Film Festival or something crazy like that.
[13:13.840 --> 13:14.980]  I don't know what the exact name of it was.
[13:15.140 --> 13:16.520]  I think they had viewers at that festival.
[13:16.660 --> 13:17.020]  Is it what?
[13:17.440 --> 13:19.220]  Viewers, rather than listeners.
[13:19.600 --> 13:20.640]  Did I say listeners?
[13:20.640 --> 13:22.380]  Yeah, but we have listeners.
[13:22.700 --> 13:24.020]  Okay, but hopefully they were listening too.
[13:24.120 --> 13:24.980]  But yeah, viewers, you're right.
[13:25.420 --> 13:29.840]  Yeah, but we got an award for that, as far as I know.
[13:29.940 --> 13:37.920]  And the biggest award to us is just people saying that they showed it to a relative or a friend of theirs that knows nothing about computers, and they were interested in it.
[13:38.020 --> 13:39.840]  You know my grandmother gets stopped all the time?
[13:39.940 --> 13:40.500]  What's free, Kevin?
[13:40.720 --> 13:45.300]  Speaking of inspiration, your grandmother is one of the most inspirational people I have ever met.
[13:45.580 --> 13:49.800]  And that's, you know, I'm not exaggerating when I say that, and a lot of other people have told me the same thing.
[13:49.800 --> 14:01.140]  She is somebody who is a perfect example, someone who gets it, somebody who has a full appreciation of what is right and what is wrong, and was very good in sticking up for you.
[14:01.280 --> 14:02.300]  Well, I've been very fortunate.
[14:02.480 --> 14:09.100]  My mother and grandmother have supported me through this whole ordeal, and they've stood by me, and they're just the greatest.
[14:09.280 --> 14:09.440]  Yeah.
[14:09.780 --> 14:10.580]  I'm really lucky.
[14:10.840 --> 14:11.640]  Yeah, you certainly are.
[14:11.760 --> 14:12.260]  You certainly are.
[14:12.340 --> 14:20.560]  Yeah, so I, you know, I hope people, I hope at least we get some more callers that would like to get a copy of Freedom Downtime, because I think it's a, I think, I think it's an excellent piece of work.
[14:20.880 --> 14:21.360]  How can they get a copy?
[14:21.420 --> 14:22.680]  Wait, you said you want to get a copy?
[14:22.840 --> 14:24.080]  No, I hope that some listeners call.
[14:24.080 --> 14:24.360]  You'll hope they get a copy.
[14:24.520 --> 14:25.860]  Yeah, I certainly gave you a copy.
[14:25.920 --> 14:26.060]  Okay.
[14:26.280 --> 14:30.080]  Yeah, the phone calls have dropped off to nothing, so let's have one more rally.
[14:30.200 --> 14:33.960]  Actually, maybe somebody from Tally can tell us if we're out of the books.
[14:33.960 --> 14:37.480]  If we're out of the books, obviously, we won't, oh, the number's going way up there.
[14:37.600 --> 14:39.280]  We're up around the $2,000 level.
[14:39.420 --> 14:42.620]  I think we're, we're still, we're still having numbers added up, hopefully.
[14:43.900 --> 14:46.540]  212-209-2950 is the phone number.
[14:46.820 --> 14:48.920]  Call up to make a pledge to the radio station.
[14:49.000 --> 14:54.800]  Probably the best thing to do is to call up, make that pledge, and find out what's available, because it's possible we might not have any of the books anymore.
[14:55.700 --> 15:00.520]  And if that's the case, well, it's too bad, but there's also all kinds of other things, including the video.
[15:00.840 --> 15:05.640]  So, and, um, every pledge will, uh, will get a copy of, uh, of, uh, you want to tell me about those?
[15:05.640 --> 15:06.120]  I have five more.
[15:06.240 --> 15:06.900]  You have five more books?
[15:06.920 --> 15:11.900]  Yeah, so if you, these are my five, uh, personal, oh, no, I have one right here that I've opened.
[15:12.120 --> 15:12.380]  He's reading.
[15:12.480 --> 15:13.980]  Well, I'm reading, I'm reading the book.
[15:14.080 --> 15:14.500]  Okay, great.
[15:14.500 --> 15:16.700]  So, so Kevin has just donated five more books.
[15:16.880 --> 15:25.620]  So, uh, for Tally people out down there, and I guess that means five more listeners can call in and pledge 125 and get both the video and the, uh, the, the, uh, the book.
[15:26.060 --> 15:30.880]  Uh, so we have five more books, and, um, and they'll be signed by Kevin Mitnick and possibly me as well.
[15:31.400 --> 15:33.640]  Um, 212-209-2950.
[15:33.840 --> 15:34.680]  Three calls on the line.
[15:34.780 --> 15:38.740]  Let's make that five, and then, uh, we'll, we'll take some phone calls on the listener line as well.
[15:39.240 --> 15:50.760]  Uh, and of course we have the personal computer show, which is normally on at this time coming in, uh, starting, uh, kind of merging with us around 8.30 or so, and then at nine o'clock they'll be taking over, and Kevin's going to stay on with them for an hour,
[15:51.180 --> 15:54.620]  and, um, we're just going to, uh, keep it going all night long.
[15:54.800 --> 15:56.480]  212-209-2950.
[15:56.540 --> 16:00.240]  Let's bring in some more calls, and then we'll, uh, we'll, uh, go to some listeners as well.
[16:01.080 --> 16:12.240]  And if you've made your pledge already, and let me specify that, uh, I really would like to hear from people who have made their pledges on the listener line, then you are clear to call 212-209-2900.
[16:12.920 --> 16:15.860]  Um, but, uh, again, please, uh, make that pledge.
[16:16.000 --> 16:16.660]  It's very important.
[16:16.660 --> 16:30.140]  Not just because, uh, you know, you, you want a copy of the book or copy of the video, because as Kevin has said, as Alex has said, as, as so many have said in these, uh, studios and on the phone lines over the years, without this place, we'd be looking at a very different scenario.
[16:30.600 --> 16:32.020]  And, uh, we are so lucky.
[16:32.260 --> 16:37.800]  And, and, and, and, in many ways, we are very lucky to have a radio station like this, to have something that can reach so many people.
[16:37.920 --> 16:40.640]  Right now, people are listening to this all around the world.
[16:40.640 --> 16:53.760]  And that's, uh, as a result of the hard work of, uh, Junts and his team of coders and, and streamers out there, uh, on the internet that, uh, get this show out to hundreds and hundreds of people, uh, worldwide, uh, who listen to it live.
[16:53.960 --> 16:57.500]  Uh, so it's, it's delayed about 30 seconds, I think, because of all the processing that goes on.
[16:57.900 --> 17:03.060]  But, um, it's also stored in our archives and people listen to it later and, and do all kinds of things.
[17:03.200 --> 17:03.740]  It's there forever.
[17:04.000 --> 17:06.860]  You can listen to our first show back in 1988 as well on our website.
[17:07.760 --> 17:09.600]  It's, um, it's a massive thing.
[17:09.600 --> 17:13.520]  We can reach a lot of people through communication, but imagine if this place did not exist.
[17:13.700 --> 17:20.320]  Imagine if BAI was taken over by a top 40 format or, you know, country and Western or something else that Clear Channel wants to have.
[17:20.540 --> 17:22.840]  Uh, believe me, they want this frequency.
[17:22.980 --> 17:24.040]  They want every frequency.
[17:24.220 --> 17:26.120]  They want to have complete control.
[17:26.320 --> 17:30.480]  It's a horrible thing, but we have our one voice here.
[17:30.600 --> 17:37.640]  We have WBAI and that one voice is divided up into so many different opinions and viewpoints and listeners and communities.
[17:38.240 --> 17:44.360]  It's, it's a marvelous thing to witness and something I've witnessed here at this place for, um, well, since I first walked in the door in 1988.
[17:45.100 --> 17:55.480]  And, um, I hope to, uh, I hope to be around for at least as long in the future and hopefully many more people will join us and, uh, become part of it and, and share information as well.
[17:55.480 --> 18:02.940]  212-209-2950 is the number to call, make your pledge, support the radio station and, uh, keep us going.
[18:03.380 --> 18:14.020]  Hey, another thing, uh, that, uh, you might be interested in, Emmanuel, is on our, we, we set up a website, uh, at defensivethinking.com and we've established a forum.
[18:14.020 --> 18:17.280]  We have a, uh, we've set up some forum software.
[18:17.520 --> 18:29.980]  So people that are interested in sharing the, the social engineering techniques that they have used or that they have no other, that they have known to be used, they post this in this forum.
[18:30.080 --> 18:44.620]  So people that are interested in learning even techniques that I haven't exposed in the book or learning or wanting to know how all these worked so they can protect themselves could also go and sign up to be on You can also enter things or questions into the forum.
[18:44.900 --> 18:45.940]  So you join the forum.
[18:46.060 --> 18:56.460]  We've got about 120 users already, but they can ask questions, they can make comments on the book, and share other ideas that they've had as far as different types of social engineering techniques, different policies.
[18:57.020 --> 19:06.560]  And Kevin, because we've set it up, technically, Kevin can answer the questions without visiting the internet, because the server is sitting inside our office, and that way...
[19:06.560 --> 19:14.080]  Yeah, we just unplugged the Cat5 cable, and then I can go ahead and answer the questions, and we plug it back in, and it's back on the internet.
[19:14.180 --> 19:16.140]  The only place in the world you're going to ask Kevin a direct question.
[19:16.260 --> 19:17.760]  So the website is...
[19:17.760 --> 19:18.480]  Well, and here.
[19:18.720 --> 19:19.920]  People can do that right now, in fact.
[19:20.000 --> 19:21.040]  Yeah, they can call in.
[19:21.240 --> 19:23.340]  All right, 202-209-2900 is our listener number.
[19:23.340 --> 19:26.520]  Thanks to the people currently on 212-209-2950.
[19:27.740 --> 19:29.600]  And please keep those calls coming in.
[19:30.840 --> 19:31.800]  Jim, you've got to be somewhere?
[19:32.340 --> 19:32.700]  No.
[19:33.780 --> 19:34.540]  Jim is driving.
[19:35.600 --> 19:37.060]  You need to be reminded of something.
[19:37.260 --> 19:38.020]  I need to be reminded of something?
[19:38.340 --> 19:39.100]  Oh, that's right.
[19:39.160 --> 19:40.220]  It's time to put money in my car.
[19:40.440 --> 19:40.560]  Feed the meter.
[19:40.920 --> 19:43.380]  Who's going to go down to... I've got a bunch of quarters here.
[19:43.640 --> 19:44.180]  Wall Street.
[19:44.460 --> 19:46.020]  So someone has to volunteer to do this.
[19:46.360 --> 19:47.140]  Let's see who can do it.
[19:47.820 --> 19:48.440]  Want to go down?
[19:49.640 --> 19:50.400]  Kevin, you want to go down?
[19:50.680 --> 19:51.980]  No, Kevin, you can't go down.
[19:52.060 --> 19:52.760]  You can't go down.
[19:52.840 --> 19:53.500]  You're the guest on the show.
[19:53.880 --> 19:54.360]  You're the guest.
[19:57.800 --> 20:02.680]  So I'll give out the website again, in case people out there are interested in joining us.
[20:02.680 --> 20:08.600]  Joining our forum and learning more about social engineering techniques and sharing your information with us.
[20:08.720 --> 20:13.720]  And that's at www.defensivethinking.com.
[20:13.860 --> 20:21.800]  And if you're interested in emailing me directly, my email address is kmitnick at defensivethinking.com.
[20:21.880 --> 20:24.100]  And you're welcome to email any questions.
[20:24.520 --> 20:27.880]  But understand there's a turnaround time because I'm not allowed to use the internet.
[20:27.880 --> 20:38.040]  I depend on my colleague Alex and my friends to help me get that email and also help me so I can respond to it without using them all.
[20:38.220 --> 20:38.960]  You read them all.
[20:39.000 --> 20:40.440]  So everything you send will be read.
[20:40.520 --> 20:41.080]  Even the spam.
[20:41.260 --> 20:41.380]  Right.
[20:41.540 --> 20:41.900]  You read the spam.
[20:41.920 --> 20:44.340]  In three months, I'll be able to use email.
[20:44.540 --> 20:44.900]  That's right.
[20:45.020 --> 20:45.320]  That's right.
[20:45.420 --> 20:48.080]  Emmanuel, by the way, as long as I'm thinking about this, you'll love this idea.
[20:48.080 --> 20:51.960]  In Los Angeles, the new parking meters can tell when you drive away.
[20:51.960 --> 20:57.260]  So if you put two hours in your parking meter and stay there for 30 minutes and move your car, the parking meter resets.
[20:57.780 --> 20:58.560]  Well, isn't that theft?
[20:58.880 --> 21:01.760]  I mean, taking the money that you put in there and not applying it to anything.
[21:01.920 --> 21:02.520]  I thought you'd like that.
[21:02.540 --> 21:03.340]  It's just the city of Los Angeles.
[21:03.460 --> 21:08.160]  What if you looked at your parking and you weren't satisfied with it and you wanted to pull out and do a better job of it?
[21:08.160 --> 21:08.640]  It resets.
[21:08.760 --> 21:09.240]  It resets.
[21:09.320 --> 21:10.140]  I don't believe that.
[21:10.520 --> 21:12.480]  In New York, that's how we flush toilets.
[21:12.720 --> 21:14.680]  Do you guys have red light cameras here?
[21:14.900 --> 21:15.200]  Yeah.
[21:15.460 --> 21:17.220]  In New York, that's how we flush toilets.
[21:17.380 --> 21:17.520]  Yeah.
[21:17.680 --> 21:19.320]  I have a question about those parking meters.
[21:19.320 --> 21:25.120]  What if you park, say, eight inches from the curb and put in cinder blocks where your tires are or where your fender is?
[21:25.120 --> 21:29.740]  Well, no, it's some sort of an infrared sensor that detects something in, like, its little field of vision.
[21:29.940 --> 21:33.040]  And then when you move the car, it sees that, you know, the block or the block.
[21:33.040 --> 21:37.420]  Well, okay, you have a large piece of cardboard that you've taken from the homeless man that you mugged.
[21:37.980 --> 21:39.280]  There's one that's always a way.
[21:39.740 --> 21:42.280]  As Emmanuel knows, there's always a way.
[21:42.500 --> 21:46.680]  Let me, before we go to the phones, just read off a quote from the book.
[21:47.300 --> 21:53.980]  To inspire people to call in and pledge to receive the book, assuming there's any copies left and, or just to pledge in general.
[21:54.640 --> 21:57.940]  And this is pretty much the theme from The Art of Deception, Kevin Mitnick's new book.
[21:58.320 --> 22:09.480]  A company may have purchased the best security technologies that money can buy, trained their people so well that they lock up all their secrets before going home at night, and hired building guards from the best security firm in the business.
[22:09.720 --> 22:12.420]  That company is still totally vulnerable.
[22:13.000 --> 22:13.400]  Right.
[22:13.740 --> 22:20.460]  And there's an interesting, I don't know if you know this, I used to work as a private investigator for a couple years, and this was in the early 1990s.
[22:20.600 --> 22:24.040]  And what my job was, was trying to find out where people were hiding.
[22:24.280 --> 22:30.400]  It was called, in the business they call it Locates, and also trying to find out where people have stashed their money.
[22:30.740 --> 22:42.360]  Because our clients for the PI company was mostly attorneys that wanted to sue people on some other party's behalf, and they wanted to see if they were judgment-proof, to see where their money was and how much they had.
[22:42.980 --> 22:50.820]  Well, in the book, I disclose a technique of how PIs would get your personal banking information.
[22:51.080 --> 23:02.760]  And see, banks, how they verify that you're indeed an employee, like for instance, if there's some interbank communication from one branch to another, how they verify is they have a thing called the code for the day.
[23:02.920 --> 23:03.500]  Oh, yes.
[23:03.660 --> 23:10.200]  And every day when they boot up their computers, a teller can look up the code, and that's how they verify it.
[23:10.320 --> 23:12.100]  It's what we call a shared secret.
[23:13.060 --> 23:19.820]  And there's a technique in my book that describes how you can trick a bank employee into divulging that shared secret.
[23:19.940 --> 23:20.560]  Yeah, that was...
[23:20.560 --> 23:21.580]  It's called the reverse sting, right?
[23:21.640 --> 23:22.740]  Yeah, it's called the reverse sting.
[23:22.840 --> 23:27.320]  I think there were five secrets that the bank had, and you were able to get something like three of them out of the bank.
[23:27.460 --> 23:28.900]  Out of one call.
[23:29.020 --> 23:29.180]  Right.
[23:29.540 --> 23:33.900]  Like Bank of America has five codes of the day, A, B, C, D, and E.
[23:34.280 --> 23:41.840]  And this was a technique where you can... It depended on the gullibility of the person, but you could at least get two out of five.
[23:41.920 --> 23:46.820]  The beauty is that, okay, one person doesn't fall for it, there's always another person that you can try.
[23:46.960 --> 23:52.580]  And that's what's so important in the protection program, because I really advocate setting up a security reporting hotline.
[23:52.960 --> 24:11.100]  So when an employee either realizes they have been victimized by a social engineering attack or there's a suspicious phone call, fax, or email, that they report this to a central point within the company so the people in that department know how to appropriately respond,
[24:11.260 --> 24:21.700]  like advise other business units or departments or do a company-wide alert to let everybody know that there's some sort of security incident in progress.
[24:21.820 --> 24:22.220]  Got calls?
[24:22.960 --> 24:23.860]  Yeah, we got calls.
[24:24.080 --> 24:26.480]  Again, 212-209-295, that was the pledge line.
[24:26.720 --> 24:27.480]  Oh, I missed it.
[24:27.920 --> 24:30.600]  I always like to see when we reach $2,600.
[24:32.000 --> 24:33.420]  We're already over $3,000.
[24:33.600 --> 24:34.380]  We're already over $3,000.
[24:34.640 --> 24:40.900]  So these bank techniques are in The Art of Deception, the book, the techniques on how to get the code of the day, all three of them, you think, or all five of them?
[24:41.060 --> 24:41.700]  Well, it's a story.
[24:41.840 --> 24:42.860]  It's actually on...
[24:42.860 --> 24:44.820]  You know, the story was somewhat fictional.
[24:45.040 --> 24:47.620]  You know, the story is fictionalized, but the techniques are real.
[24:47.740 --> 24:48.140]  The techniques are real.
[24:48.140 --> 24:53.500]  Also, if you want to learn how to get the bank code for the day, it's in the book that you get with the pledge.
[24:53.980 --> 24:54.780]  And it's signed.
[24:55.140 --> 24:56.000]  How can you beat that?
[24:56.240 --> 24:58.140]  212-209-295-0.
[24:59.200 --> 25:00.720]  Also, I want to point this out, too.
[25:00.820 --> 25:07.080]  I know I got a couple pieces of email from people that pledged during the last pledge drive that may not have gotten all their premiums.
[25:07.140 --> 25:15.260]  If you're one of those people, what I want you to do is call us at the 2600 office and leave us your phone number, and we'll work everything out if there is any kind of problems.
[25:15.320 --> 25:17.180]  I know that always happens at some point.
[25:17.180 --> 25:19.280]  But there's paperwork that doesn't get passed along.
[25:19.780 --> 25:22.880]  So if you're one of those people that's grumbling right now saying, I pledged last time.
[25:22.960 --> 25:24.040]  I didn't get what I pledged for.
[25:24.580 --> 25:26.860]  We never let that go.
[25:27.020 --> 25:31.240]  We never, you know, we can't sleep at night if we know there's somebody out there who didn't get what they pledged for.
[25:31.600 --> 25:32.940]  Our number is 631.
[25:32.940 --> 25:35.440]  Area cut, 631-474-2677.
[25:35.920 --> 25:36.900]  That's for 2600.
[25:36.980 --> 25:37.660]  That's for 2600.
[25:37.780 --> 25:43.920]  Just leave us a voicemail there and, excuse me, just leave you a phone number and we'll have somebody get back to you.
[25:44.000 --> 25:45.020]  Because you love your listeners.
[25:45.360 --> 25:45.700]  That's right.
[25:45.800 --> 25:46.200]  We do.
[25:46.920 --> 25:50.180]  Have we given out 25 books?
[25:50.680 --> 25:53.580]  I think maybe somebody from Tally can let us know, maybe update us.
[25:53.640 --> 25:55.180]  But let's take some phone calls on the listener line.
[25:55.180 --> 25:57.200]  212-209-2900 now.
[25:57.420 --> 25:58.940]  We have Kevin Mitnick here in the studio.
[25:58.940 --> 26:01.900]  If you have a question for Kevin, he's here to answer it.
[26:02.060 --> 26:04.920]  So let's pick our first call.
[26:05.000 --> 26:05.540]  Let's go over here.
[26:05.820 --> 26:06.480]  And good evening.
[26:06.580 --> 26:07.280]  You're our first call.
[26:08.160 --> 26:09.660]  Hey, Mr. Dial Tone.
[26:10.200 --> 26:11.460]  We know what we can do with you.
[26:11.980 --> 26:12.780]  I could whistle.
[26:14.000 --> 26:14.900]  That'd be a warning.
[26:14.900 --> 26:16.120]  I actually know one guy.
[26:16.260 --> 26:17.380]  We both know...
[26:17.380 --> 26:18.740]  We can't say his name.
[26:18.840 --> 26:19.600]  We can't say his name.
[26:19.700 --> 26:20.680]  We both know one guy.
[26:20.840 --> 26:24.680]  You can touch tone a number in front of, and you can do it quickly, and he can tell you the number.
[26:24.680 --> 26:25.720]  Oh, I know people like that.
[26:25.860 --> 26:26.060]  Oh, you do?
[26:26.060 --> 26:26.740]  I know us people like that.
[26:26.840 --> 26:28.280]  Yeah, they touch tone decoders in their heads.
[26:28.480 --> 26:29.100]  This guy's amazing.
[26:29.280 --> 26:29.400]  Yeah.
[26:29.660 --> 26:31.720]  He might be the same person, but we'll talk about him afterwards.
[26:32.040 --> 26:33.720]  We have our first caller on the line.
[26:34.140 --> 26:34.860]  No, we don't.
[26:34.980 --> 26:35.180]  Okay.
[26:36.240 --> 26:37.000]  People are hanging up.
[26:37.100 --> 26:37.760]  I don't know why...
[26:37.760 --> 26:40.080]  Our phone calls are also moving all around the place.
[26:40.640 --> 26:41.140]  Good evening.
[26:41.220 --> 26:41.660]  You're on the air.
[26:41.820 --> 26:42.240]  Hello, Eric.
[26:42.440 --> 26:43.360]  Ah, who's this?
[26:43.480 --> 26:44.020]  This is David.
[26:44.360 --> 26:45.080]  David, how are you doing?
[26:45.220 --> 26:49.020]  I just finished getting the last book, and I wanted to say hi to Kevin, because...
[26:49.020 --> 26:50.440]  I remember you, David.
[26:50.640 --> 26:52.800]  Last time we talked, I was on vacation.
[26:53.340 --> 26:53.540]  Yeah.
[26:53.540 --> 27:01.400]  You know, it was a couple of weeks at a time, and I remember the three-way I had with your lawyer at the time.
[27:01.560 --> 27:03.020]  Do we have to talk about that over the air?
[27:03.460 --> 27:03.700]  No.
[27:04.720 --> 27:05.300]  Oh, no.
[27:05.500 --> 27:06.380]  You don't know how that sounded.
[27:06.500 --> 27:07.240]  Okay, never mind.
[27:07.360 --> 27:08.200]  Continue with your thoughts.
[27:08.200 --> 27:09.480]  Oh, I remember what it was about.
[27:09.680 --> 27:09.800]  Yeah.
[27:09.800 --> 27:13.820]  Well, hey, it's great to talk to you again, David, and I really hope you enjoy the book.
[27:13.900 --> 27:15.400]  I think it will be a real eye-opener.
[27:15.680 --> 27:25.220]  I also wanted to talk quickly about the movie Takedown, because I actually went over to Europe for work and picked up the DVD and have been screening it to, like, a number of people.
[27:25.340 --> 27:28.520]  And it's, in some parts, it's really quite funny.
[27:28.920 --> 27:31.140]  Does the DVD have the extras with Kevin talking?
[27:31.140 --> 27:35.880]  Oh, yeah, it has the interview at the end, which really makes it appear that Kevin is, like...
[27:35.880 --> 27:36.540]  Endorsing the film.
[27:36.580 --> 27:36.980]  Endorsing the film.
[27:37.160 --> 27:39.440]  Yeah, which is totally incorrect.
[27:40.980 --> 27:45.440]  And since this has been done in France, I really have no legal recourse.
[27:45.680 --> 27:52.760]  David, when you saw the extras, did it look as if they had recut the interview and maybe made it look as if he's answering one question when he was answering another?
[27:54.160 --> 27:56.080]  It wasn't the cleanest edit.
[27:56.340 --> 27:58.840]  It was a real pain in the ass, because you couldn't play the whole interview.
[28:01.140 --> 28:03.640]  You had to keep going one after the other to hear it all.
[28:03.920 --> 28:05.280]  Yeah, a lot of effort.
[28:05.500 --> 28:08.100]  And the sound was really, like, wasn't really done well.
[28:08.500 --> 28:14.180]  But I have to say that, I guess, the funniest part of the entire film, had to be the first five minutes, was the...
[28:14.180 --> 28:15.100]  Oh, with Icebreaker?
[28:15.360 --> 28:17.500]  The guy that played Justin Peterson?
[28:17.760 --> 28:17.920]  Right.
[28:19.060 --> 28:34.660]  Everyone who watches it has said this most hilarious part, the first five minutes, when you meet him in the bar, and he starts reeling off all these really lame hacks, and then he just lets loose with the FBI thing about the television surveillance.
[28:34.760 --> 28:35.300]  Sass, about Sass?
[28:35.440 --> 28:35.560]  Yeah.
[28:35.900 --> 28:36.440]  And it was just...
[28:37.020 --> 28:38.060]  It was just priceless.
[28:38.220 --> 28:38.700]  And you know what?
[28:38.860 --> 28:54.500]  They stole that material right out of Littman's book, and if it wasn't for Alex, he's the one that actually went to Wilmington and acted as a consultant because of the way they were painting me in this picture was just totally inaccurate.
[28:54.820 --> 28:56.780]  And I'll let you tell the story, Alex.
[28:56.780 --> 28:57.940]  Yeah, because they paid me.
[28:58.020 --> 28:58.700]  It was very interesting.
[28:58.880 --> 29:06.840]  Because they paid me, that means that anything that I said that made it legally possible for them to steal it out of the book or something, that was their argument.
[29:07.080 --> 29:07.380]  Oh, really?
[29:07.380 --> 29:07.820]  Very weird.
[29:08.120 --> 29:09.320]  So I don't know what happened.
[29:09.440 --> 29:10.180]  You were more familiar with that.
[29:10.300 --> 29:15.420]  Well, Littman actually ended up suing Merrimack's and Disney and came out with a really substantial settlement.
[29:15.700 --> 29:15.840]  Yeah.
[29:15.960 --> 29:28.260]  And basically what they did is they stole the material out of Littman's book because they realized Markov's book was trash, which it was, and they went with Littman's and they violated his copyright.
[29:28.560 --> 29:29.740]  Yeah, because they had his book on the set.
[29:29.920 --> 29:33.660]  I mean, I saw them with the book in their hands, and I told Littman to Littman, and I think he used it.
[29:33.780 --> 29:34.240]  Yeah, he did.
[29:34.400 --> 29:35.400]  In fact, you're instrumental.
[29:35.960 --> 29:36.980]  A couple of things.
[29:37.120 --> 29:41.720]  First, a very solemn announcement I have to make in that I've just been told that there are no more books.
[29:41.900 --> 29:42.220]  Oh.
[29:49.300 --> 29:51.200]  We'll be having a signing marathon later.
[29:52.020 --> 29:55.000]  So all the books are gone, but that doesn't mean you can't call and pledge.
[29:55.380 --> 29:59.480]  We still have videos, and we still have copies of 20s to come to anybody who does pledge.
[29:59.640 --> 30:01.080]  212-209-2950.
[30:01.100 --> 30:02.640]  Just call up and ask what's available.
[30:02.860 --> 30:07.160]  The tally people are very frazzled, very busy, but they like to be that way.
[30:07.200 --> 30:10.080]  Yeah, that's their natural state is being frazzled and busy.
[30:10.480 --> 30:17.440]  Guys, one of the most fantastic things in the film is how they cast the actor who played Shimomura.
[30:18.280 --> 30:19.280]  Oh, Russell Wong?
[30:19.540 --> 30:25.720]  You couldn't have somebody who was so physically, diametrically opposed to the figure that is Shimomura.
[30:26.460 --> 30:29.500]  And then it's funny when you see the...
[30:29.500 --> 30:35.320]  There's some sort of press conference where Shimomura has a cameo where he's sitting with his arms crossed in the audience.
[30:35.420 --> 30:36.580]  And Alex is in that shot, too.
[30:36.640 --> 30:37.180]  I'm sitting next to him.
[30:37.480 --> 30:47.780]  Right, and then you have Russell Wong up there playing Shimomura, and you see the two for a split second at the same time on screen, and it's just ludicrous.
[30:47.940 --> 30:48.080]  Yeah.
[30:48.260 --> 30:49.000]  Well, here's the thing.
[30:49.000 --> 30:53.000]  We're talking about the wrong film because we're not giving away that film.
[30:53.060 --> 30:54.060]  We couldn't give away that film.
[30:54.080 --> 30:55.740]  You wouldn't want it even if you were.
[30:56.140 --> 30:57.080]  That film was trash.
[30:57.280 --> 30:58.900]  It was trashy, yes, and trash.
[30:59.080 --> 31:06.000]  But we do have Freedom Downtime, and that's something that I think you can learn a lot about the other film because we were chasing the people who were making it.
[31:06.540 --> 31:08.760]  In fact, you were there, Alex, during the hurricane, right?
[31:08.840 --> 31:09.460]  Hurricane Bonnie.
[31:10.040 --> 31:10.680]  Yes, Bonnie was...
[31:10.680 --> 31:11.420]  My ex-wife's name.
[31:11.580 --> 31:13.000]  Yeah, that was something, wasn't it?
[31:13.000 --> 31:13.860]  That was pretty scary.
[31:14.740 --> 31:20.580]  So we were trying to talk to the people there about the film, and it's all documented, and you can get it for a pledge.
[31:20.700 --> 31:21.980]  212-209-2950.
[31:22.220 --> 31:24.220]  Joe King from The Personal Computer Show is here.
[31:24.720 --> 31:25.340]  How are you doing?
[31:25.400 --> 31:27.460]  Well, it's been quite an evening for you guys.
[31:27.640 --> 31:30.040]  I see the tally has really gotten up there.
[31:30.120 --> 31:31.720]  I thought you said you were going to raise 2,600.
[31:31.980 --> 31:33.060]  Well, we did, but I missed it.
[31:33.160 --> 31:36.700]  We shot right past that, and now we're above 3,000.
[31:36.800 --> 31:38.780]  We want to bring it above 4,000 if possible.
[31:38.860 --> 31:40.000]  212-209-2950.
[31:40.000 --> 31:41.860]  You know, you said you were all out of books a moment ago.
[31:41.860 --> 31:42.980]  I couldn't help hearing that.
[31:43.060 --> 31:48.320]  And if folks call in and pledge and then follow up their pledge by getting online and going to Amazon, they can get their book.
[31:48.440 --> 31:49.320]  Well, they can do that too, sure.
[31:49.480 --> 31:50.780]  Kevin can also make a couple of books.
[31:50.960 --> 31:53.520]  Yeah, don't forget, Kevin is having a book signing in New York City.
[31:53.620 --> 31:54.080]  That's true, too.
[31:54.320 --> 31:54.820]  On the 28th.
[31:54.840 --> 32:00.780]  You can get the exact date if you go to defensivethinking.com and click on the schedule.
[32:01.020 --> 32:01.060]  Art of Deception.
[32:01.320 --> 32:01.460]  Right.
[32:01.640 --> 32:02.160]  Art of Deception.
[32:02.320 --> 32:06.340]  There's a schedule online that tells you what bookstores and when it will be in New York City.
[32:06.400 --> 32:08.680]  And we'll put it up on our website, too, at 2,600.com.
[32:08.680 --> 32:14.420]  But the reason people are calling in to pledge is not so much just to get the book because you can get the book, obviously.
[32:14.420 --> 32:15.260]  It's all over the place.
[32:15.540 --> 32:21.280]  It's to support the station and keep voices like Kevin's, you know, free so that they can speak on the air.
[32:21.360 --> 32:22.860]  Yeah, if anyone in New York City...
[32:22.860 --> 32:25.760]  I'm doing the book signing, I believe, at Barnes & Noble, which I think...
[32:25.760 --> 32:27.300]  Is that near your 2,600 meeting?
[32:27.300 --> 32:27.820]  I don't know.
[32:27.920 --> 32:28.700]  There's one on every block.
[32:29.000 --> 32:29.880]  Oh, there's one on every block.
[32:30.020 --> 32:31.460]  It's like 7-Eleven in Los Angeles.
[32:31.740 --> 32:32.140]  It's like Starbucks, yeah.
[32:32.280 --> 32:34.840]  But just because the books are gone doesn't mean you shouldn't support the station.
[32:35.080 --> 32:35.580]  Exactly, yes.
[32:35.580 --> 32:42.060]  No, the point I was making is by all means support the station so that we can have the voices of people like Kevin on the air.
[32:42.460 --> 32:45.740]  And then, because the book is worth reading, go out and get the book.
[32:46.740 --> 32:49.400]  And what are you asking as a pledge for the book?
[32:49.680 --> 32:50.420]  The book is...
[32:50.420 --> 32:54.340]  Well, actually, since we don't have them anymore, we were offering the book with the video for $125.
[32:55.100 --> 32:59.160]  But now we're offering the video for $75 and people can pledge whatever they want.
[32:59.260 --> 33:00.000]  So now...
[33:00.000 --> 33:00.940]  But the videos are signed by...
[33:00.940 --> 33:08.180]  If you pledge $100 and then go over to Barnes & Noble and get the book, you're at the same level and BAI gets the benefit.
[33:08.660 --> 33:15.500]  And when you get there, tell Kevin you heard about the book on the air and you'd like him to make a signature on it for you.
[33:15.980 --> 33:21.380]  There's one other thing you can do that I just noticed over there is you have a galley copy of my book, which is...
[33:21.380 --> 33:22.340]  I'm not giving that up for anything.
[33:22.520 --> 33:22.680]  Okay.
[33:23.400 --> 33:24.480]  But don't forget also...
[33:24.480 --> 33:25.460]  I hold on to these things.
[33:25.640 --> 33:28.040]  The movies, Freedom Downtime, are signed by Kevin as well.
[33:28.120 --> 33:29.120]  Now, that's rare.
[33:29.120 --> 33:30.020]  Yeah, I've never seen those before.
[33:30.180 --> 33:30.340]  Yeah.
[33:30.440 --> 33:31.320]  Well, we haven't done them yet.
[33:32.180 --> 33:33.700]  I'm kind of curious what they're going to look like.
[33:33.860 --> 33:35.080]  Hey, we're going to move on to another phone call.
[33:35.180 --> 33:35.620]  Thanks for your call.
[33:35.620 --> 33:37.140]  Hey, good talking to you, David.
[33:37.320 --> 33:37.740]  Okay, cheers.
[33:37.960 --> 33:38.280]  All right.
[33:38.680 --> 33:40.020]  Let's see who else is out there.
[33:40.340 --> 33:40.940]  And good evening.
[33:41.020 --> 33:41.460]  You're on the air.
[33:41.460 --> 33:44.720]  Hi, I'd like to mention two things to Kevin.
[33:45.700 --> 33:46.940]  One thing is...
[33:46.940 --> 33:48.280]  One is about homeland security.
[33:48.620 --> 33:53.540]  Do you think that you can maybe hack computers so that you can, like...
[33:53.540 --> 34:04.920]  There was a case where a hacker was looking around a military satellite and some actual terrorist wanted, you know, wanted the pavest hacker to move a satellite.
[34:05.120 --> 34:05.900]  Do you think you can...
[34:05.900 --> 34:06.780]  I've never heard of that case.
[34:06.840 --> 34:07.540]  What case is that?
[34:07.700 --> 34:09.640]  I have no idea what the case in his head.
[34:09.860 --> 34:11.300]  You're citing a case you don't know?
[34:11.460 --> 34:12.660]  No, I heard of that hope.
[34:12.800 --> 34:26.000]  It was a video that I saw at Hope that happened, and I was wondering if you can set up a terrorist and catch a terrorist and win the million dollars for, you know, for catching a terrorist or helping, you know, the nation on fighting terrorism.
[34:26.160 --> 34:28.440]  It sounds like a big contest, It's a little far-fetched, I mean.
[34:28.520 --> 34:28.860]  A little far.
[34:28.860 --> 34:29.720]  What's your second question?
[34:29.860 --> 34:34.920]  All right, my second question is that how do you tell a company that they have flaws?
[34:34.920 --> 34:37.240]  Like, I can bill calls to my cell phone.
[34:37.580 --> 34:39.560]  My cell phone number is supposed to be blocked.
[34:39.700 --> 34:41.360]  I mean, any cell phone number is supposed to be blocked.
[34:41.360 --> 34:44.420]  or third number of calls, but you could bill calls to your cell phone.
[34:44.540 --> 34:54.620]  And when I'm out traveling, like I'm out of state and I use my Sprint PCS phone, you know, I do an A and I read back and it's not my cellular phone number, but it's the number of the cell site.
[34:54.760 --> 34:57.320]  Now, how is that possible and why?
[34:57.480 --> 34:58.120]  And can you...
[34:58.120 --> 35:01.220]  I can make international phone calls about that by just using AT&T.
[35:01.840 --> 35:06.120]  So you're saying you can bill the cell site number when you make a phone call?
[35:06.200 --> 35:08.560]  It sounds kind of like a weird anomaly that it's just a Sprint.
[35:08.840 --> 35:10.980]  And usually it's a DID group and you can't build the DID.
[35:11.220 --> 35:13.020]  I mean, Alex used to be a TSPS operator.
[35:13.220 --> 35:16.840]  I mean, it's probably just they screwed up when they didn't block those particular numbers.
[35:16.880 --> 35:18.440]  I think you just you ran across a fluke.
[35:19.560 --> 35:25.080]  What I did notice, though, is that most cellular companies, in fact, I think all cellular companies, you can't make collect calls to.
[35:25.140 --> 35:25.460]  Is that right?
[35:25.460 --> 35:27.980]  Yeah, they can block it because they don't know how to bill it.
[35:28.080 --> 35:32.480]  And usually you can't do third-party or it's a class 66.
[35:32.800 --> 35:34.660]  They take collect calls in the Sopranos, though.
[35:34.920 --> 35:36.440]  They get collect calls in cell phones.
[35:36.560 --> 35:37.200]  I don't know how they do that.
[35:37.340 --> 35:42.040]  And also what's unfortunate is on cell phones, you can't have anonymous call rejection.
[35:42.320 --> 35:44.460]  So what I do is I give everybody out my...
[35:44.460 --> 35:49.260]  I give out my home telephone number and then call forward so I could use the anonymous call rejection.
[35:49.260 --> 35:52.760]  But I think that's a service that these cellular companies should provide.
[35:53.000 --> 35:53.280]  Definitely.
[35:53.480 --> 35:55.400]  212-209-2950 is our play.
[35:55.460 --> 35:56.320]  Pledge line, which is empty.
[35:56.560 --> 35:57.780]  Okay, one call in right now.
[35:58.100 --> 35:58.780]  That was fast.
[35:59.400 --> 36:03.140]  Let's get some more calls over there so we can bring that tally up a little bit more.
[36:03.280 --> 36:04.800]  It's a little lower than I'd like it to be.
[36:04.920 --> 36:11.560]  We still have videos and we still have a signed copy of 2600 to anybody who calls in with the pledge no matter what the amount.
[36:12.060 --> 36:13.380]  And there are other things, too.
[36:13.460 --> 36:14.840]  Other generic BAI premiums.
[36:14.900 --> 36:16.820]  212-209-2950.
[36:17.620 --> 36:21.720]  We're only here for another 20 minutes and then Joe King and the personal computer people are going to take over.
[36:21.840 --> 36:23.240]  Kevin's going to stay around for another hour.
[36:23.260 --> 36:30.140]  Kevin, if you stay around for a while, we'll continue to talk about these things and see how other aspects of it...
[36:30.140 --> 36:31.340]  Sure, I'm happy to be here.
[36:31.380 --> 36:33.440]  Are you allowed to talk on the personal computer show?
[36:35.060 --> 36:37.780]  Well, you're not allowed to advise people on...
[36:37.780 --> 36:42.760]  I'm not allowed to act as a consultant or advisor to anyone that uses a computer.
[36:43.260 --> 36:43.580]  Really?
[36:43.680 --> 36:44.760]  So does anyone use a computer here?
[36:44.920 --> 36:45.760]  No, so...
[36:45.760 --> 36:47.040]  But that's with...
[36:47.040 --> 36:47.580]  That's...
[36:48.280 --> 36:58.080]  I'm allowed to do it with permission of the probation department and fortunately, since I'm so close to getting off, they've allowed me to act as an advisor or consultant in a number of regards.
[36:58.280 --> 36:58.820]  Wow, that was fast.
[36:58.880 --> 36:59.960]  We broke the 4,000 barrier.
[37:00.160 --> 37:00.660]  How did we do that?
[37:03.540 --> 37:05.040]  Did I say 4?
[37:05.100 --> 37:05.900]  I meant 5, yes.
[37:08.300 --> 37:10.040]  5,000 is an even number.
[37:10.160 --> 37:10.900]  I like 5,000.
[37:10.960 --> 37:11.460]  I like 5,000.
[37:11.580 --> 37:12.720]  Mike has names to thank.
[37:12.980 --> 37:17.080]  We have a ton of people to thank and we also have a ton of people who don't want their names read on the air.
[37:17.340 --> 37:17.920]  Read those ones first.
[37:17.920 --> 37:18.400]  Read those first.
[37:18.560 --> 37:23.100]  Yeah, so if you're one of those people, we thank you, but only collectively.
[37:24.160 --> 37:34.780]  But specifically, we want to thank Mark from Milford, Connecticut, Jack from Manhattan, William from Marston's Mills, Massachusetts.
[37:35.120 --> 37:36.100]  I don't know where that is.
[37:37.100 --> 37:38.380]  Joseph from Brooklyn.
[37:38.600 --> 37:39.440]  And you're from Massachusetts.
[37:39.440 --> 37:40.180]  You don't know where that is.
[37:40.220 --> 37:41.380]  I never heard of it, yeah.
[37:42.380 --> 37:44.040]  Raymond from Chatham, New Jersey.
[37:45.980 --> 37:48.940]  David from Queens, who says, Hi, Kevin.
[37:49.300 --> 37:52.340]  That's probably the same David from Queens that called and left another note over here.
[37:52.460 --> 37:52.580]  Yeah.
[37:55.420 --> 37:56.920]  Albert from Jackson Heights.
[37:56.940 --> 37:57.700]  He is at the door, too.
[37:59.780 --> 38:02.080]  Cheryl from Stockton, New Jersey.
[38:03.620 --> 38:05.480]  Ron from Garland, Texas.
[38:05.900 --> 38:06.100]  Yay.
[38:07.680 --> 38:08.980]  That's the furthest one so far.
[38:09.180 --> 38:11.740]  Well, we've got William from Omaha, Nebraska.
[38:12.080 --> 38:13.680]  Is Nebraska further than Texas?
[38:14.020 --> 38:14.740]  I don't know.
[38:14.920 --> 38:18.460]  But either way, we've got Ian from the UK.
[38:18.800 --> 38:19.040]  All right.
[38:19.080 --> 38:19.660]  That wins.
[38:19.780 --> 38:20.120]  That wins.
[38:20.780 --> 38:21.520]  That's streaming.
[38:21.880 --> 38:22.640]  Do you have a prize?
[38:22.640 --> 38:23.840]  What part of the UK is that?
[38:24.040 --> 38:25.480]  It must be a city or...
[38:25.480 --> 38:26.620]  Yeah, I guess.
[38:26.820 --> 38:27.860]  One of those little county names.
[38:28.300 --> 38:29.060]  I can't really...
[38:29.060 --> 38:29.760]  Can you parse this?
[38:32.160 --> 38:32.580]  Peterborough.
[38:32.780 --> 38:33.200]  Peterborough.
[38:33.420 --> 38:33.840]  Peterborough.
[38:33.860 --> 38:34.400]  Peterborough, okay.
[38:34.920 --> 38:36.980]  And we've got Crowley from New York.
[38:39.200 --> 38:42.460]  Omar from Blumenberg, New York, I guess.
[38:42.660 --> 38:43.840]  Bloomberg is a city now.
[38:44.460 --> 38:44.820]  Yeah.
[38:45.040 --> 38:45.680]  He only...
[38:45.680 --> 38:46.500]  You didn't hear about this?
[38:46.560 --> 38:47.580]  He renamed the city Bloomberg.
[38:47.880 --> 38:48.040]  Okay.
[38:48.520 --> 38:48.720]  Yeah.
[38:49.360 --> 38:50.160]  So, Blumenberg.
[38:50.260 --> 38:54.120]  We've got Tim, who's from the Binghamton area, but doesn't want us to know more than that.
[38:54.120 --> 39:07.740]  On that note, while I was watching Jello Biafra yesterday, he said that the dictator of Turkmenistan, something we might want to keep in mind here in New York, actually renamed the days of the week and the months of the year after himself.
[39:08.060 --> 39:08.880]  That's kind of weird.
[39:09.000 --> 39:09.460]  That's kind of weird.
[39:09.520 --> 39:09.900]  I'd like to...
[39:09.900 --> 39:12.660]  If any listeners in Turkmenistan can let us know about that.
[39:12.860 --> 39:13.900]  Just before...
[39:13.900 --> 39:16.860]  We've got Eric from Andover, New Jersey.
[39:17.120 --> 39:17.380]  Okay.
[39:17.820 --> 39:22.340]  And William, who doesn't want us to know where he's from, but it's not the tri-state area.
[39:23.160 --> 39:23.480]  Okay.
[39:23.480 --> 39:23.960]  William.
[39:24.360 --> 39:24.840]  Well...
[39:24.840 --> 39:24.880]  Okay.
[39:25.220 --> 39:26.580]  William sounds very mysterious.
[39:27.020 --> 39:27.680]  Even more.
[39:27.880 --> 39:38.840]  Oh, and we have anonymous people from Atlanta, Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia, Franklin, Michigan, Fort Myers, Florida, and another one from Omaha.
[39:39.360 --> 39:39.720]  Cool.
[39:39.820 --> 39:40.480]  Two people from Omaha.
[39:40.600 --> 39:41.400]  Two people from Omaha.
[39:41.660 --> 39:45.260]  Do you have a meeting, a regular 2600 meeting in Omaha?
[39:45.520 --> 39:46.380]  I believe we do.
[39:46.420 --> 39:50.240]  In fact, I can tell you that right now because we have a list of all the meetings right in the back of the magazine.
[39:50.640 --> 39:52.480]  And let's see what we have in Nebraska.
[39:54.840 --> 39:55.160]  No.
[39:55.380 --> 39:55.660]  Meeting?
[39:55.720 --> 39:56.020]  Yeah, we did.
[39:56.280 --> 39:57.280]  No, except...
[39:57.280 --> 39:57.800]  Oh, boy.
[39:57.940 --> 40:00.580]  You know, we forgot to print the state.
[40:01.760 --> 40:03.400]  According to this, Omaha is in Missouri.
[40:03.920 --> 40:04.340]  Oh, boy.
[40:04.580 --> 40:05.280]  Very well made.
[40:05.280 --> 40:06.000]  You found the one...
[40:06.000 --> 40:08.160]  Somehow you found the one typo on this whole page.
[40:08.560 --> 40:09.400]  Nebraska is there.
[40:09.520 --> 40:10.120]  Oh, there it is.
[40:10.200 --> 40:10.580]  It's just...
[40:10.580 --> 40:12.640]  It's flushed over to the left and it's not bolded.
[40:12.780 --> 40:12.960]  Okay.
[40:13.540 --> 40:14.360]  I missed that one.
[40:14.440 --> 40:14.620]  All right.
[40:14.720 --> 40:17.780]  Yeah, Omaha is at the Oakview Mall, Barnes & Noble, 7 p.m.
[40:17.780 --> 40:18.700]  first Friday of every month.
[40:19.060 --> 40:19.540]  So, there you go.
[40:19.760 --> 40:19.980]  So, there you go.
[40:19.980 --> 40:26.300]  Emmanuel, you know, one thing in the book that a lot of people are surprised at is we describe how caller ID can be forged on outbound calls.
[40:26.320 --> 40:27.420]  Yeah, that is cool.
[40:27.520 --> 40:29.920]  And we had a panel on that at HDK2.
[40:30.140 --> 40:30.260]  Right.
[40:30.340 --> 40:32.300]  But the method described here is different.
[40:32.480 --> 40:36.920]  That method was mostly social engineering where you go to an operator and you get her to make a test call.
[40:37.100 --> 40:37.260]  Oh, no.
[40:37.540 --> 40:39.320]  This is something much...
[40:39.320 --> 40:42.120]  I actually figured it out about six months ago?
[40:42.280 --> 40:42.800]  Eight months ago?
[40:42.900 --> 40:43.800]  Yeah, about eight months ago.
[40:44.000 --> 40:48.820]  I really enjoyed when we used to call David Hall, the program director at KFI.
[40:49.240 --> 40:52.540]  This guy is very, very difficult to reach over the phone.
[40:52.660 --> 40:54.940]  I would think it'd be easier to call President Bush.
[40:55.380 --> 40:58.520]  So, anyway, the way to call him was spoofing...
[40:58.520 --> 41:01.040]  call his cell phone and spoofing his home number.
[41:01.240 --> 41:02.340]  Then he'd answer his call.
[41:03.360 --> 41:04.240]  But go on, Alex.
[41:04.240 --> 41:04.920]  I'm sorry for interrupting.
[41:05.100 --> 41:07.420]  So, is anyone familiar with how it's done?
[41:07.480 --> 41:07.980]  How to spoof?
[41:08.160 --> 41:08.980]  I can tell you how it's done.
[41:09.220 --> 41:09.680]  Well, there are different ways.
[41:09.940 --> 41:22.860]  There are some ways like you can use some cellular phone companies and I know Omnipoint used to have this where if you left somebody a message, you could indicate the number that you were calling from.
[41:23.060 --> 41:28.560]  So, when the person listened to the voicemail message, it would read out the number that the call came from as if you really called from that.
[41:28.620 --> 41:31.600]  And I call people from their home saying, oh, I'm standing here in your house right now.
[41:31.600 --> 41:32.100]  Where are you?
[41:32.220 --> 41:35.100]  And they, of course, freak out because they didn't know of any other way I could do that.
[41:35.340 --> 41:36.960]  Your way, though, is a bit more sophisticated.
[41:36.960 --> 41:43.160]  This way, actually, I mean, I can call anyone live and the real number and name shows up on their caller ID display or on their cell phone.
[41:43.460 --> 41:49.340]  The way it's done is using what's called a primary rate interface, which is the ISDN interface to a PBX.
[41:49.820 --> 41:54.960]  It's a digital interface which controls each of the 23 DID lines into the switch.
[41:55.460 --> 42:04.500]  So, on an outbound call, the phone company has to trust you because the phone company doesn't know of the many DID numbers you have which one is making the phone call.
[42:04.640 --> 42:08.180]  So, it trusts in the setup information what number you're sending.
[42:08.400 --> 42:09.380]  I was reading the book.
[42:09.540 --> 42:11.760]  This is on a Nortel Option 11 series.
[42:12.160 --> 42:13.880]  I bet you I could change the number, and I did.
[42:14.020 --> 42:15.380]  But here's the most interesting part.
[42:15.560 --> 42:21.020]  You can send the outbound number, but the way caller ID name works is it actually queries a central database.
[42:21.360 --> 42:30.600]  So, if you send any number when it reaches the end central office, that end central office queries the database to see what number has the name attached to it.
[42:30.600 --> 42:31.660]  So, here's what you can use it for.
[42:32.020 --> 42:40.760]  If you can hack a switch and send out any number you want, the end central office will look up the real associated name with the number.
[42:40.940 --> 42:49.580]  So, if you want to know whose name is associated with the number, even an unlisted one, you simply program in that number, call someone with the caller ID and name, and it shows you the real listed name.
[42:49.580 --> 42:50.760]  You don't even have to hack a switch.
[42:50.900 --> 42:52.760]  You just have to have control of a company PBX.
[42:52.760 --> 42:52.920]  Well, hack.
[42:53.060 --> 42:55.340]  I mean, sorry, I've used hack in the term that it wasn't meant to be.
[42:55.460 --> 42:59.680]  Just basically get into one that you have authorization that's a perfectly legitimate use of the word.
[43:00.000 --> 43:06.780]  So, if you find yourself in charge of telecommunications at a company and you have a PBX at your disposal, you can actually do this.
[43:07.060 --> 43:13.240]  What confuses me, though, is why does the phone company, I can see them believing the extension, why believe the exchange as well?
[43:13.300 --> 43:15.840]  Why not say you can only be from the 209 exchange?
[43:16.140 --> 43:17.280]  Well, the reason is twofold.
[43:17.420 --> 43:18.540]  One, it's difficult to verify.
[43:18.700 --> 43:24.740]  Don't forget that with SS7 and all the various telephone companies in the world, they trust the incoming messages.
[43:24.840 --> 43:32.400]  They trust it and it's not the job of the company that's rounding the call initially to track that number.
[43:32.520 --> 43:34.640]  Meaning, I send a call out, it just passes it on.
[43:34.780 --> 43:38.660]  And it's the end company that looks at the number and they have to trust it because they don't know.
[43:38.760 --> 43:44.420]  And another reason for that is to say you're a large company and you have offices geographically located throughout the United States.
[43:44.540 --> 43:45.220]  You've got a call center.
[43:45.340 --> 43:54.460]  And you have a call center and every time a call is placed from an employee of that company, you want the main telephone number, say in New York, to show up on the caller ID.
[43:54.940 --> 43:58.320]  That's why they don't restrict it to area code and prefix.
[43:58.460 --> 44:01.860]  They're supposed to do a validation check against the DID group, but they don't do it.
[44:01.860 --> 44:02.740]  Yeah, it's very difficult to do.
[44:02.800 --> 44:07.320]  But if you've got operators in Nebraska making calls for a company based in New York, you want to send the real number.
[44:07.480 --> 44:26.560]  And how that applies to the book is these are advanced social engineering techniques because if you know that the target actually uses caller ID, then you can call that target being the phone company, being a utility company, being their bank, being another individual at a different location at the company,
[44:26.640 --> 44:29.100]  and they're going to believe you 100%.
[44:29.100 --> 44:31.360]  Yeah, the moral of the story is don't trust caller ID.
[44:31.580 --> 44:33.640]  You can't trust it to make a real...
[44:33.640 --> 44:38.820]  It's just too easy to do, and we know, we know that the LAPD uses it to trick people when they're looking...
[44:38.820 --> 44:39.780]  Yeah, when they're looking for fugitives.
[44:39.880 --> 44:40.920]  So they use these methods themselves.
[44:41.000 --> 44:41.740]  Oh, yeah, law enforcement.
[44:41.920 --> 44:44.800]  This is done in load 15 in a northern telecom switch.
[44:44.920 --> 44:49.320]  Anyone who has a Nortel, which is the most deployed PBX in the world, can do this.
[44:49.420 --> 44:50.460]  It's very easy to do.
[44:50.880 --> 44:51.120]  Sorry.
[44:51.340 --> 44:52.380]  In fact, I was...
[44:52.380 --> 45:07.480]  This one gentleman in Las Vegas that I know offered a substantial sum if we can develop a box that would hook directly up into an ISDN to spoof caller ID, and who his customer was, his clients, were all federal law enforcement.
[45:07.800 --> 45:10.180]  So even federal law enforcement wanted to use this technique.
[45:10.380 --> 45:14.180]  So the authorities are well aware of all the techniques used in your book.
[45:14.180 --> 45:22.860]  So by publishing this, you're not giving away the secrets, you're basically spreading the information to the general public so people can be aware and protected against this kind of thing.
[45:22.900 --> 45:35.860]  Well, the message that I wanted to get out is that when you receive a call from a stranger, and even though on the caller ID it's representing to be coming from a particular company or person, you can't trust it.
[45:35.860 --> 45:37.660]  But what you can trust is A&I.
[45:38.000 --> 45:39.140]  Because A&I...
[45:39.140 --> 45:40.960]  But how do you know if you're getting A&I or you're getting...
[45:40.960 --> 45:42.640]  Well, that's an 800 toll-free.
[45:43.520 --> 45:44.260]  Can't spoof that.
[45:44.460 --> 45:45.100]  Can't spoof that.
[45:45.100 --> 45:48.100]  But if you have a regular phone and you don't have an 800 number, you know...
[45:48.100 --> 45:52.300]  Well, you can spoof it if you get into the switch and change the billing telephone number, but it's much more difficult.
[45:52.640 --> 46:16.500]  But with sophisticated social engineering, this is where spoofing caller ID, this is where finding out, predicting what number the target is going to call you back at, like you're lying that you're with another department within the company, and then getting into that company's PBX or getting into the phone company's switch and then call-forwarding that person's number to like a prepaid cell
[46:16.500 --> 46:16.780]  phone.
[46:17.000 --> 46:27.160]  Like in Los Angeles, you can buy prepaid cell phones at 7-Eleven for under a hundred bucks, you could set it up under anonymous names because they don't check, and you have a legitimate callback number.
[46:27.520 --> 46:33.840]  And what about companies that you can give a callback number and they'll just call you back?
[46:33.940 --> 46:35.960]  They won't even check that it's a valid callback number.
[46:36.100 --> 46:38.060]  That happens most of the time.
[46:38.280 --> 46:38.540]  That's genius.
[46:39.100 --> 46:45.880]  Let's quickly go through some phone calls, and then hopefully we'll have enough time to conclude this before the personal computer show takes over here.
[46:45.960 --> 46:46.180]  Good evening.
[46:46.240 --> 46:46.640]  You're on the air.
[46:46.820 --> 46:47.880]  I know you're on the air.
[46:47.960 --> 46:48.420]  Not you again.
[46:48.460 --> 46:49.360]  Not you again.
[46:49.460 --> 46:49.800]  Good evening.
[46:50.120 --> 46:50.680]  You're on the air.
[46:51.820 --> 46:52.380]  Go ahead.
[46:52.580 --> 46:52.920]  Yes.
[46:53.380 --> 46:54.400]  Oh, God bless you, gentlemen.
[46:54.660 --> 46:58.700]  It's a very interesting show, especially since I'm a beginner or call me a dinosaur.
[46:59.660 --> 47:00.420]  What's on your mind?
[47:00.700 --> 47:10.880]  If I'm understanding right, use the term hacker, is that someone who also, not meaning you gentlemen, because I didn't hear that, like say the spreading of a virus on a network?
[47:11.000 --> 47:11.760]  That's a vandal.
[47:12.560 --> 47:17.980]  Hackers really explore and exploit technology to learn about the inner workings.
[47:18.040 --> 47:19.080]  Usually because they love it.
[47:19.180 --> 47:21.560]  They love technology and they hack away to figure out how it works.
[47:21.800 --> 47:22.320]  That's all they do.
[47:22.580 --> 47:23.740]  That's really what it's all about.
[47:23.860 --> 47:29.980]  And circumventing computer security for the challenge and the intellectual pursuit, but not to destroy information or to profit.
[47:30.220 --> 47:38.640]  Now, if you have a really bad system, somebody like that is a real threat to you because they're going to discover that you have a really bad system, and that's where all the animosity comes from.
[47:38.880 --> 47:39.840]  I'm convinced of that.
[47:40.340 --> 47:41.860]  Was that security through obscurity?
[47:42.300 --> 47:43.040]  Yeah, basically.
[47:43.560 --> 47:45.700]  Let's move through as many as we can.
[47:45.900 --> 47:46.160]  Good evening.
[47:46.280 --> 47:46.640]  You're on the air.
[47:47.500 --> 47:48.120]  Hey, Kevin.
[47:48.960 --> 47:49.360]  Hi.
[47:49.760 --> 47:51.240]  Hey, two questions for you.
[47:52.160 --> 47:56.420]  First one, what's the first thing you want to do when you get off the roll there?
[47:57.840 --> 48:01.740]  And the second is, can we see you at H2K4 or whatever?
[48:01.980 --> 48:02.880]  Well, I plan to be there.
[48:02.980 --> 48:09.300]  In fact, Eric has invited me to speak, so I plan to do that.
[48:09.500 --> 48:13.140]  And when I get off supervised release, what do you mean?
[48:13.220 --> 48:17.300]  Like, what, the first site I want to go on the Internet or what I plan to do for a career?
[48:17.920 --> 48:19.060]  Get more specific.
[48:19.460 --> 48:23.260]  What do you want to do on the Internet once you're actually able to touch computers again online?
[48:23.620 --> 48:29.640]  Oh, well, the first site I'll probably go to is www.labmistress.com, which is my girlfriend's website.
[48:29.900 --> 48:30.980]  Of course, I plug that.
[48:31.100 --> 48:31.860]  I'm sure she'll be happy.
[48:32.620 --> 48:40.580]  And I'm really interested in instant messaging technologies and using email because it's so ambiguous these days.
[48:40.780 --> 48:43.360]  And it's really a tool to be used.
[48:43.420 --> 48:44.060]  It'll just be fun.
[48:44.520 --> 48:44.980]  I really am.
[48:45.040 --> 48:46.440]  I'm looking forward to it.
[48:46.600 --> 48:54.740]  Speaking of things to do when you get out, I know one of our listeners wrote in inviting you to the, not as an official, but as one of the people attending to the Dayton Hamvention.
[48:54.960 --> 48:56.760]  I'm sure that's something you might be interested in.
[48:56.880 --> 48:57.180]  Where is that?
[48:57.360 --> 48:57.880]  It's in Dayton.
[48:58.060 --> 48:58.500]  It's in Ohio.
[48:58.780 --> 49:00.700]  Dayton, Ohio, usually in May.
[49:01.900 --> 49:04.260]  If 50,000 people show up, it'd be great to have you there.
[49:04.340 --> 49:07.740]  What I'd love to do is throw a big party once I get off supervised release.
[49:07.920 --> 49:09.180]  I don't know where to do it.
[49:09.280 --> 49:15.440]  I was Gary Kremen, who runs www.sex.com, offered to throw a party in Rancho Santa Fe.
[49:15.740 --> 49:18.460]  And I'd love to throw some big party to invite all the supporters.
[49:18.840 --> 49:20.560]  By the way, we never covered the FCC thing.
[49:20.560 --> 49:21.740]  Yeah, quickly.
[49:22.360 --> 49:28.980]  What the FCC is doing is they agreed to go ahead and renew my amateur radio...
[49:28.980 --> 49:35.480]  They agreed to recommend to the judge that they allow my amateur radio license to be renewed.
[49:36.000 --> 49:44.880]  And now it's in the judge's hands to see if he's going to go ahead and do it, which is when both parties agree to a resolution, it's most likely going to happen.
[49:44.900 --> 49:45.620]  So I'm just waiting.
[49:46.060 --> 49:47.140]  It's pretty much a done deal.
[49:47.160 --> 49:47.880]  That's good, though.
[49:47.960 --> 49:54.460]  I mean, actually, it sounds like you made your case and they heard you and they realized that taking away your ham radio license would not be the right thing to do.
[49:54.460 --> 49:55.220]  Well, he was like a celebrity.
[49:55.320 --> 49:57.720]  We walked into the courtroom and everyone was all smiles.
[49:57.840 --> 50:02.040]  The judge was just like wanting to hear stories and the prosecutors were like, nice, hi, that's great.
[50:02.080 --> 50:03.120]  It was just like a love fest.
[50:03.280 --> 50:03.520]  Wow.
[50:03.840 --> 50:05.060]  They're very friendly in D.C.
[50:05.140 --> 50:07.840]  Remember how friendly they were when we hung out, you know, in the Senate chambers?
[50:07.960 --> 50:10.060]  Do you know we were hanging out in the Senate chambers with Lieberman?
[50:10.820 --> 50:11.480]  Did you know that?
[50:11.760 --> 50:12.400]  Well, I thought about it after.
[50:12.460 --> 50:15.000]  It was like, this guy's coming up to me, this Senator Lieberman.
[50:15.140 --> 50:16.760]  And I'm like, I mean, I asked so why.
[50:16.820 --> 50:18.820]  This was before he was the vice presidential.
[50:18.820 --> 50:19.440]  Right, right.
[50:19.540 --> 50:20.960]  Before he was VP.
[50:21.180 --> 50:21.960]  Him and Thompson.
[50:22.260 --> 50:22.900]  Those were the two people.
[50:23.100 --> 50:23.340]  Yeah.
[50:23.520 --> 50:25.100]  That was a very interesting time.
[50:25.420 --> 50:33.500]  And, no, so I mean, the only downside of the ham radio thing is I spent over $15,000 in legal fees.
[50:33.720 --> 50:34.540]  Well, I actually owe.
[50:35.320 --> 50:39.860]  And it's been, I have the most expensive amateur radio license probably in existence.
[50:40.180 --> 50:42.380]  That's why I'm trying to auction off these laptops on eBay.
[50:42.500 --> 50:43.440]  Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
[50:44.060 --> 50:47.100]  Well, anyway, just in that, I guess I can still go to ebay.com and check it out.
[50:47.100 --> 50:48.280]  Yeah, and search for Mitnick.
[50:48.280 --> 50:50.720]  Yeah, there's a fake Mitnick there, too, right?
[50:50.880 --> 50:56.540]  Yeah, somebody's putting up fake sellers purporting to be selling my laptops.
[50:56.980 --> 51:03.450]  And the real seller is TSS Tech Goddess that is selling the real Mitnick memorabilia.
[51:04.000 --> 51:05.120]  So only buy from that person.
[51:05.320 --> 51:09.360]  So you can see the pictures of your laptops with all the FBI fingerprint dust.
[51:09.380 --> 51:10.860]  Oh, by the way, Steve Wozniak signed them.
[51:11.140 --> 51:11.520]  Did he?
[51:11.680 --> 51:11.880]  Yes.
[51:12.540 --> 51:16.920]  Actually, he and I hosted a show called The Screensavers, which ended up being a disaster.
[51:17.100 --> 51:18.140]  Because imagine this.
[51:18.280 --> 51:24.560]  I was very fortunate to get the opportunity to co-host with Woz a live television show.
[51:24.720 --> 51:25.100]  On Tech TV.
[51:25.200 --> 51:25.780]  On Tech TV.
[51:26.020 --> 51:27.660]  I never read a teleprompter before.
[51:27.940 --> 51:31.160]  Never did live television except looking in one camera.
[51:31.400 --> 51:31.580]  Right.
[51:31.600 --> 51:35.840]  Never had an IFB in your ear where somebody's talking to you and knowing what camera to look at.
[51:36.300 --> 51:38.060]  And I only had 20 minutes of rehearsal.
[51:38.280 --> 51:38.500]  Uh-huh.
[51:38.600 --> 51:40.780]  So, of course, the show was very, very rough.
[51:41.000 --> 51:41.580]  I taped it.
[51:41.600 --> 51:42.180]  I haven't seen it yet.
[51:42.200 --> 51:42.900]  I'm looking forward to it.
[51:44.560 --> 51:48.380]  Let me make one last appeal to our listeners because the board is blank over there.
[51:48.500 --> 51:51.080]  212-209-2950 is our pledge line.
[51:51.220 --> 52:05.860]  Please, this is your last chance to call in and get the videos that are signed by Kevin and myself for Freedom Downtime, the documentary of Kevin's horrible ordeal that he went through and how it finally ended.
[52:07.020 --> 52:10.320]  212-209-2950, a copy of Freedom Downtime for a pledge of $75.
[52:10.900 --> 52:12.060]  You can pledge any amount.
[52:12.120 --> 52:17.120]  Every amount is appreciated and we will give you a signed copy of the new issue of 2600 with every pledge.
[52:17.260 --> 52:20.840]  Let's get a few phone calls on there, 212-209-2950.
[52:21.160 --> 52:25.700]  In our last couple of minutes, Kevin, I'd like you to tell us something about the missing chapter in this book.
[52:25.820 --> 52:26.820]  Now, there is...
[52:26.820 --> 52:27.940]  There is...
[52:27.940 --> 52:29.060]  Which one are you talking about?
[52:29.160 --> 52:32.620]  I happened to read some of the galleys before it actually got printed.
[52:32.840 --> 52:33.860]  Oh, you're talking about the John Markov.
[52:33.880 --> 52:35.140]  There was the first chapter.
[52:35.140 --> 52:37.660]  I think it was the first chapter was your story.
[52:38.120 --> 52:39.620]  Yeah, it was kind of the Kevin story.
[52:39.840 --> 52:40.580]  It's not there anymore.
[52:40.740 --> 52:41.640]  So what in the world happened?
[52:41.660 --> 53:03.860]  Well, my publisher decided to remove it from the book and I can't really publicly discuss their rationale, but the main component of that chapter is telling my side of the story, what happened, how the myth of Kevin Mitnick was created by John Markov by his false and defamatory reporting about me on the front page of the New York Times.
[53:03.860 --> 53:20.620]  I don't know if you recall this, but Markov wrote in a story that I broke into NORAD, which I hadn't done, that I wiretapped the FBI, which I hadn't done, that I planted a false news story about Security Pacific Bank losing millions of dollars in an effort to get even with them,
[53:20.880 --> 53:25.780]  which I hadn't done, amongst many other unsourced and false allegations.
[53:25.780 --> 53:45.520]  And I explained the history of my dealings with Markov about his original contact, when his original attempt to contact me to help him on the cyberpunk book, because he wanted to write a story, well, a third of the book about me, the movie deal that ensued afterwards.
[53:45.520 --> 53:46.600]  There's a lot there.
[53:46.640 --> 53:47.160]  There's a lot there.
[53:47.160 --> 53:48.100]  There's a lot of story that needs to be told.
[53:48.380 --> 54:02.280]  Yeah, and I can't get into the details because I know we're running out of time, but to suffice it to say, I had my side of the story with, you know, kind of the, my side of the creation of the myth of Kevin Mitnick and what the reality was.
[54:02.880 --> 54:06.940]  And my publisher decided to go ahead and remove that against my wishes.
[54:07.240 --> 54:14.340]  I, I stand by what I, what I included in that chapter, and I'm sorry that it wasn't printed.
[54:14.520 --> 54:25.340]  And then subsequently, after the publisher had decided to go ahead and remove it, then Markov's attorneys submitted this 20-page brief threatening to sue my publisher unless that chapter was removed.
[54:25.480 --> 54:26.940]  An expensive 20-page brief, too.
[54:27.120 --> 54:30.060]  Yeah, so they, they weren't aware that it had already been removed, and they...
[54:30.060 --> 54:31.440]  No, and they went, and they threatened, yeah.
[54:31.640 --> 54:31.680]  Uh-huh.
[54:31.940 --> 54:32.160]  Interesting.
[54:32.160 --> 54:34.740]  So Markov didn't want me to tell my side of the story.
[54:34.740 --> 54:34.740]  Right.
[54:34.900 --> 54:39.480]  Well, now we know that, um, but, uh, that side's gonna come out some way, uh, and...
[54:39.480 --> 54:48.660]  Well, I understand it was in the galley copies that you actually saw at the 2600, uh, magazine, um, meeting, so it's only a matter of time before the information becomes free, I'm sure.
[54:48.860 --> 54:49.880]  Yeah, that's certainly true.
[54:50.960 --> 54:54.960]  Um, 212-209-2950 is our phone number for, uh, for pledges, please.
[54:55.060 --> 54:58.740]  We have, uh, less than three minutes now for, uh, people to call in with that.
[54:58.880 --> 55:04.160]  Personal computer people are taking over in a couple of minutes, and, uh, they're gonna have all different kinds of premiums, Joe, is that right?
[55:04.160 --> 55:09.260]  We will have different premiums, but we'll also have different questions for Kevin, because I understand you're gonna stay with us for a little while.
[55:09.480 --> 55:09.480]  Sure.
[55:09.980 --> 55:11.140]  I, I, I'm here and available.
[55:11.320 --> 55:14.820]  We'll, we'll, we'll ask the, the non-hacker questions of the hacker.
[55:15.140 --> 55:15.320]  Yeah.
[55:15.580 --> 55:21.640]  Yeah, we're gonna have a, a whole bunch of premiums, and, uh, there'll be some of interest to, to everybody out there, I think.
[55:22.000 --> 55:23.320]  Yeah, I, I, I do, too.
[55:23.680 --> 55:31.440]  So if you want the video, uh, you better call in, uh, 212-209-2950, and also copies of 2600 for anyone who calls in, regardless of the pledge level.
[55:32.440 --> 55:33.620]  But support WBAI.
[55:33.740 --> 55:33.960]  Yeah.
[55:34.140 --> 55:35.580]  You know, I, I, I don't know if we're on next week.
[55:35.780 --> 55:37.480]  You know, I, I, I forgot to check my mailbox.
[55:37.660 --> 55:38.340]  We're off next week.
[55:38.380 --> 55:39.020]  We're off next week.
[55:39.740 --> 55:40.600]  We're both off.
[55:40.680 --> 55:40.840]  Okay.
[55:40.960 --> 55:41.320]  We're both off.
[55:41.400 --> 55:42.540]  Which probably means we're both on.
[55:43.200 --> 55:46.520]  Well, you know, we were both off last week, and we were both on.
[55:46.820 --> 55:47.640]  So, I, I don't really know.
[55:47.640 --> 55:48.960]  And then we think we're on, we're off.
[55:49.140 --> 55:52.140]  But the, the theory is that we'll both be back on the 30th.
[55:52.300 --> 55:52.560]  Okay.
[55:52.720 --> 55:55.300]  But I think that, the, the marathon is still going on on the 30th.
[55:55.420 --> 55:55.560]  No.
[55:55.560 --> 55:57.840]  But, but if it is, it's only until 6 o'clock.
[55:58.060 --> 55:58.440]  Oh, good.
[55:58.440 --> 56:00.680]  Because after 6 o'clock is when we're on.
[56:00.880 --> 56:00.980]  Yeah.
[56:01.460 --> 56:02.140]  Extend the marathon.
[56:02.260 --> 56:03.380]  Yeah, we can just do this forever.
[56:03.660 --> 56:04.900]  But I want to thank all the listeners.
[56:05.040 --> 56:07.420]  We're up to, uh, 4340, and we have four calls on the line.
[56:07.520 --> 56:08.860]  So we're going to, uh, hopefully...
[56:08.860 --> 56:09.780]  Flirt with the 5,000, Mark.
[56:09.860 --> 56:11.060]  Flirt with the 5,000, Mark.
[56:11.060 --> 56:12.440]  I want to thank everybody for calling in.
[56:12.520 --> 56:13.660]  It means so much to us.
[56:13.800 --> 56:16.920]  And, uh, you're the reason why we keep this up, the listeners out there.
[56:17.260 --> 56:21.060]  And I'm glad, Kevin, you got to be here firsthand, you know, and see this place for what it is.
[56:21.300 --> 56:23.440]  Yeah, it's, it's been a, it's been an awesome opportunity.
[56:23.500 --> 56:26.680]  And I'm, uh, really, uh, supportive of WBAI.
[56:26.800 --> 56:27.880]  And I think you're doing a great thing.
[56:28.080 --> 56:28.360]  Thanks.
[56:28.480 --> 56:29.300]  And, uh, so are you.
[56:29.420 --> 56:31.800]  I'm glad to see the book and, uh, all the other things you're involved in.
[56:32.260 --> 56:33.760]  Hope to have you back here many, many times.
[56:34.000 --> 56:35.120]  Oh, I plan to be here.
[56:35.200 --> 56:39.300]  I'll be here, uh, between August 27th, no, October 27th and the 29th.
[56:39.300 --> 56:42.740]  So I don't know what days that falls in during the week, but maybe I can come back.
[56:42.880 --> 56:43.160]  Definitely.
[56:43.540 --> 56:43.740]  Okay.
[56:44.020 --> 56:44.220]  All right.
[56:44.280 --> 56:44.540]  Thank you.
[56:44.780 --> 56:47.920]  Stay tuned for the personal computer show, uh, with Kevin Mitnick for the first hour.
[56:48.140 --> 56:52.800]  And, uh, we'll be back again in two weeks during a regular program here in WBAI, New York.
[56:52.880 --> 56:54.560]  Emmanuel Goldstein, have a good night.
[58:14.930 --> 58:17.190]  The right to a home in Homeland County.