[00:00.950 --> 00:11.630]  ...in the Catholic Church to overturn an arcane custody law that deprived him of access to his four children, including his daughter, Evelyn.
[00:12.110 --> 00:22.510]  After his wife ran away and he lost his job, his goal is to get his kids back home in time for Christmas.
[00:24.670 --> 00:30.090]  This Thursday, a special screening of Evelyn for WBAI listeners.
[00:30.090 --> 00:31.210]  7.30.
[00:31.410 --> 00:37.830]  If you come to WBAI at 120 Wall Street, we have passes for BAI listeners.
[00:38.270 --> 00:42.770]  In thanks for your support to our station during our last marathon.
[00:43.830 --> 00:45.930]  Come see this important film.
[00:50.630 --> 00:51.810]  I didn't fade that.
[00:51.890 --> 00:52.530]  He faded himself.
[00:53.370 --> 00:55.410]  Well, this is WBAI New York.
[00:55.610 --> 00:58.110]  It's 7 o'clock time for Off the Hook.
[01:03.560 --> 01:05.000]  Until the phone keeps ringing.
[01:05.560 --> 01:07.600]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:08.660 --> 01:10.580]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:11.200 --> 01:13.180]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:13.860 --> 01:15.960]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:18.480 --> 01:19.560]  But, bum-diddly-bom.
[01:19.660 --> 01:21.440]  But the best is back to worse.
[01:22.160 --> 01:24.020]  I hope that's understood.
[01:24.280 --> 01:25.100]  Bum-diddly-bom!
[01:35.220 --> 01:36.740]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[01:36.840 --> 01:38.080]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[01:39.980 --> 01:42.800]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[01:45.080 --> 01:46.440]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[01:46.600 --> 01:47.720]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[01:49.840 --> 01:51.240]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[01:51.400 --> 02:03.930]  Hey, bab-a-dee-bop!
[02:03.950 --> 02:05.230]  Ha-ha-ha!
[02:06.550 --> 02:07.290]  Ha-ha-ha!
[03:01.280 --> 03:02.420]  And a good evening to everybody.
[03:02.520 --> 03:03.460]  The program is Off the Hook.
[03:03.800 --> 03:05.040]  Manuel Goldstein here with you.
[03:05.180 --> 03:07.640]  We've got a packed house tonight, don't we?
[03:08.240 --> 03:11.800]  Well, it's been one of those weeks.
[03:12.140 --> 03:14.760]  One of those crazy, insane weeks.
[03:15.040 --> 03:18.260]  And we've gotten a lot of feedback from last week's show.
[03:18.320 --> 03:20.640]  And we have information to give to you.
[03:21.600 --> 03:23.760]  And all kinds of other things are happening as well.
[03:28.240 --> 03:30.100]  So, let's introduce ourselves first.
[03:30.300 --> 03:31.000]  Sarah, if you're over there.
[03:31.280 --> 03:31.620]  Howdy.
[03:31.840 --> 03:32.300]  How you doing?
[03:32.520 --> 03:32.800]  All right.
[03:32.940 --> 03:33.140]  Jim.
[03:33.540 --> 03:33.920]  Hello.
[03:34.140 --> 03:34.540]  What's going on?
[03:34.860 --> 03:35.380]  Nothing much.
[03:36.240 --> 03:37.080]  Claude's here also.
[03:38.120 --> 03:39.240]  And Leo, is it?
[03:39.400 --> 03:39.600]  Yeah.
[03:39.880 --> 03:40.740]  And Mike.
[03:40.940 --> 03:41.700]  Yes, I'm here.
[03:41.900 --> 03:42.360]  And Jeff.
[03:42.540 --> 03:43.180]  I'm over here.
[03:43.260 --> 03:44.040]  And all the mics work.
[03:44.120 --> 03:44.840]  That's the amazing thing.
[03:45.520 --> 03:45.920]  Wow.
[03:46.140 --> 03:47.120]  But not the headphones.
[03:47.380 --> 03:47.940]  Not the headphones.
[03:48.080 --> 03:48.920]  You want everything?
[03:50.840 --> 03:51.780]  What a week it's been.
[03:53.180 --> 04:00.280]  As you all know, last week we did the story on the reporter, or photographer, rather, in Denver.
[04:00.900 --> 04:04.060]  And I've got to tell you, I've never seen such a reaction.
[04:04.300 --> 04:05.240]  I guess that's a good thing.
[04:05.340 --> 04:07.400]  I guess it's a good thing when people react strongly.
[04:07.400 --> 04:16.040]  But I just want to focus for a second on a negative reaction, because I think that's particularly interesting to look at for a second.
[04:20.100 --> 04:22.280]  And let's go through a few letters.
[04:24.320 --> 04:25.160]  A few.
[04:25.800 --> 04:27.080]  We got a lot.
[04:27.240 --> 04:27.740]  We got a lot.
[04:28.500 --> 04:29.520]  It would take all day.
[04:29.640 --> 04:31.300]  It would take more than that.
[04:33.460 --> 04:33.860]  Oh, wait.
[04:33.920 --> 04:34.760]  These are the positive letters.
[04:34.840 --> 04:35.060]  Hold on.
[04:35.100 --> 04:36.300]  I got the wrong pile here.
[04:36.540 --> 04:36.720]  Okay.
[04:37.260 --> 04:39.320]  This person says, of course, this story is made up.
[04:39.400 --> 04:42.440]  It's quite a creatively realistic scenario, though.
[04:42.440 --> 04:59.080]  So, I have to admit, it almost convinces me because there is a minute granule, or rather, a molecule of nearly believable semi-truth to it, and that some totally out-of-control cop or agent could possibly, however remotely, go this far.
[04:59.820 --> 05:04.340]  This fictitious agent would, of course, be committing a career-ending mistake by doing anything like this.
[05:04.820 --> 05:06.040]  So, go ahead and admit it.
[05:06.120 --> 05:07.940]  The story is a total fabrication, isn't it?
[05:07.980 --> 05:08.600]  You can tell me.
[05:08.720 --> 05:09.780]  I won't reveal your secret.
[05:09.920 --> 05:11.680]  It's actually quite a funny joke.
[05:11.820 --> 05:12.940]  I'm not gullible enough to believe it.
[05:12.960 --> 05:13.900]  I got a good grin out of it.
[05:13.980 --> 05:14.780]  I just have to tell you.
[05:16.340 --> 05:16.700]  Gosh.
[05:17.480 --> 05:18.300]  Should we tell him?
[05:19.220 --> 05:19.880]  I guess.
[05:20.240 --> 05:20.980]  I don't know.
[05:21.900 --> 05:23.180]  We should tell him what we know.
[05:23.540 --> 05:24.820]  Well, that's what we've been doing.
[05:25.360 --> 05:27.500]  Apparently, that's not enough for a lot of people.
[05:27.640 --> 05:34.280]  Everything that we report on is what we know, is what we are, you know, as far as the facts go, this is what we are aware of.
[05:34.760 --> 05:37.620]  And what we reported last week was what we were aware of at the time.
[05:37.740 --> 05:39.000]  We were aware of a bit more this week.
[05:39.540 --> 05:42.980]  We've reported some things on the site as well.
[05:44.140 --> 05:48.780]  And, of course, we're always open to what our listeners have to say and write in.
[05:48.780 --> 05:50.640]  But I mean, you know, I have to wonder.
[05:52.100 --> 05:59.100]  People... of course, there is an element of doubt to a story where there is no actual physical evidence.
[05:59.100 --> 06:00.220]  That's the whole point.
[06:00.380 --> 06:02.020]  We made sure.
[06:02.140 --> 06:04.160]  And for people that are just tuning in, I guess we should recap quickly.
[06:04.900 --> 06:11.820]  This photographer in Denver last week was taking pictures of the hotel where Vice President Cheney was supposedly in.
[06:11.820 --> 06:28.300]  And he was questioned by police, according to his account, questioned by police, brought into a police station, and then questioned by someone who identified themselves as a Secret Service agent called a raghead collaborator and a dirty pinko faggot, among other things.
[06:29.180 --> 06:31.300]  That's a story we reported last week.
[06:31.420 --> 06:35.540]  We had Mike McGinnis, the person who is alleging this, on the air.
[06:36.200 --> 06:38.940]  I listened to that interview several times.
[06:38.940 --> 06:47.860]  And I have to say, you know, I could not find anything in there that makes me say, no, this doesn't quite check out.
[06:47.980 --> 06:48.780]  There's something wrong here.
[06:49.040 --> 06:51.720]  Actually, a couple of minor things, which I'll go into in a little bit.
[06:51.860 --> 06:57.080]  But usually, usually, you know, when you talk to people, you're looking for all the holes.
[06:57.180 --> 06:58.380]  And that's what you should be doing.
[06:58.500 --> 07:01.000]  You should be looking for the facts don't quite add up.
[07:01.000 --> 07:13.360]  I have the feeling that the people writing in to us, that are so certain of the police account of this, without any evidence from them, I don't think they're quite applying it equally here.
[07:13.460 --> 07:15.860]  They're questioning some people, not questioning other people.
[07:16.180 --> 07:20.760]  You know, we question everybody we come across, friend or foe.
[07:21.320 --> 07:25.760]  And we leave it up to the listener to decide, is this the truth or is this not the truth?
[07:25.860 --> 07:27.220]  If not the truth, okay, fine.
[07:27.400 --> 07:32.820]  You know, nobody is required to believe anything, but let's at least discuss it and say, why isn't this the truth?
[07:33.020 --> 07:40.760]  Then, if you bring in other stories that we've heard from different people around the country, similar things seem to be happening.
[07:40.760 --> 07:46.360]  And add into that the fact that the people who know the answers aren't commenting.
[07:46.660 --> 07:48.240]  They're not telling us.
[07:48.420 --> 07:55.440]  They're not telling us if this could happen, if taking a picture of a building where VIP is could get you in trouble.
[07:55.560 --> 07:56.820]  They're not saying things like that.
[07:56.960 --> 08:06.140]  So, it seems to me, at this point, regardless of any lack of physical evidence, such as, you know, pieces of paper or actual photographs.
[08:06.140 --> 08:08.840]  Remember, the camera was confiscated, so there are no photographs.
[08:11.440 --> 08:14.880]  There's no receipt for being harassed by police.
[08:14.920 --> 08:18.140]  I guess, you know, we should ask people, when you get harassed by cops, make sure you get a receipt from now on.
[08:18.280 --> 08:22.020]  Because that way, you know, you'll know if there's any evidence.
[08:22.340 --> 08:23.700]  You'll actually have it in your hands.
[08:24.460 --> 08:25.200]  Here's some more letters.
[08:25.300 --> 08:27.140]  I need some proof to believe Mike McGinnis' story.
[08:27.260 --> 08:27.860]  There ain't none.
[08:28.020 --> 08:29.120]  Anybody can say anything.
[08:29.320 --> 08:31.420]  Does that mean we should believe all BS?
[08:32.220 --> 08:33.380]  That's from Orlando, Florida.
[08:33.440 --> 08:35.580]  But I should point out, we got onto some mailing lists.
[08:35.580 --> 08:39.860]  We got onto some mailing lists of people that are not normal listeners to the radio show.
[08:40.860 --> 08:45.400]  So, some of the comments might seem a little strange for the BAI listening audience.
[08:45.700 --> 08:48.640]  But that's just the nature of breaking news, I guess.
[08:49.800 --> 08:54.440]  This person, and this was written in all caps, Hey, and how do I know this is true?
[08:54.440 --> 08:58.600]  You leftist wackos have been making up stories since the creation of this world.
[09:00.880 --> 09:01.700]  That's a long time.
[09:02.420 --> 09:06.540]  Since God created the world, because you know, if it's a right-wing person, God has to have created the world.
[09:06.560 --> 09:07.420]  You're older than you look.
[09:08.020 --> 09:09.100]  Well, no, all of us.
[09:09.200 --> 09:10.520]  All of us leftist wackos.
[09:10.620 --> 09:12.960]  And I think that would include you or anybody that speaks out on the airwaves.
[09:13.120 --> 09:15.600]  It's funny, you know, we didn't talk to Mike about his politics at all.
[09:15.700 --> 09:17.620]  Yet, somehow, he has been labeled a leftist.
[09:17.940 --> 09:18.600]  Isn't that something?
[09:18.820 --> 09:23.680]  And I blatantly pointed out that I'm a radically right-wing Republican.
[09:23.940 --> 09:25.300]  Yeah, but you have no evidence of that, do you?
[09:25.820 --> 09:26.740]  You can't prove that.
[09:26.740 --> 09:28.800]  Yes, I have a voter registration card.
[09:29.540 --> 09:30.080]  Uh-huh.
[09:31.060 --> 09:32.820]  Guys, you can carry on conversations outside.
[09:32.960 --> 09:34.680]  That's what outside is for.
[09:34.920 --> 09:35.340]  Great.
[09:36.700 --> 09:37.140]  Unreal.
[09:38.240 --> 09:39.220]  Now, how about this?
[09:39.280 --> 09:41.720]  Do you really believe that we are to accept this as truth?
[09:41.720 --> 09:46.660]  I know what is going on, and that is to make people suspicious of a government which is trying its best to protect us.
[09:47.200 --> 09:51.440]  You evidently don't care what happens to Americans by writing this cynical, untrue article.
[09:51.440 --> 09:55.240]  They're referring to the article that's on the webpage that goes along with the radio show of last week.
[09:55.240 --> 09:58.740]  Uh, you are willing to incite anger among the people of the U.S.
[09:58.780 --> 10:00.380]  to do away with the Patriot Act.
[10:00.740 --> 10:02.700]  They say the Patriotic Act, actually.
[10:03.020 --> 10:06.020]  And Homeland Security by portraying this article is true.
[10:06.220 --> 10:06.800]  Shame on you.
[10:06.960 --> 10:08.860]  Our freedoms are not being taken away by the government.
[10:09.020 --> 10:10.840]  They are being taken away by people like you.
[10:11.420 --> 10:12.120]  Isn't that something?
[10:12.680 --> 10:17.060]  So, uh, we're taking away freedoms now by reporting stories.
[10:18.560 --> 10:21.720]  Um, this person takes exception to the word dirty pinko faggot.
[10:21.840 --> 10:22.540]  You've got to be kidding.
[10:22.700 --> 10:25.040]  No one uses those terms today unless you're over 60.
[10:25.420 --> 10:26.380]  Well, I didn't know that.
[10:27.120 --> 10:29.180]  Some people are a lot older than they look then.
[10:30.180 --> 10:32.180]  That's, uh, that's a revelation to me.
[10:32.720 --> 10:33.220]  All right.
[10:33.320 --> 10:35.000]  So if anybody says that, you know how old they are.
[10:35.580 --> 10:40.160]  Uh, this person says, I don't believe your story about the guy who was arrested for taking pictures of Cheney's Hotel in Denver.
[10:40.500 --> 10:41.400]  Credible, you ask.
[10:41.580 --> 10:42.560]  Listen for yourself.
[10:42.780 --> 10:46.700]  If the story were credible, I would not be forced to endure minutes of B.S.
[10:46.820 --> 10:48.240]  before I got to the alleged content.
[10:48.620 --> 10:53.720]  I didn't have the patience to continue listening to the annoying preface, and maybe that's what you were counting on.
[10:54.580 --> 10:56.400]  Please do not add me to your spam list.
[10:56.600 --> 10:57.560]  Let me answer that.
[10:57.680 --> 10:57.980]  Okay.
[10:59.140 --> 10:59.560]  Go ahead.
[10:59.580 --> 11:01.520]  Emanuel is a bad interviewer, okay, folks?
[11:02.080 --> 11:03.240]  How am I a bad interviewer?
[11:03.240 --> 11:06.120]  You had all that preface before you got to the meat of the story.
[11:06.340 --> 11:06.640]  I played a song.
[11:06.740 --> 11:07.580]  That's what he's referring to.
[11:07.700 --> 11:08.360]  I played music.
[11:08.500 --> 11:12.960]  Apparently the person can't figure out how to fast forward on his, on his, uh, real audio play or whatever he's using.
[11:13.220 --> 11:13.440]  All right.
[11:14.940 --> 11:22.020]  It's, it's funny how, when a lot of people get into arguments with you, they don't have the patience to actually, uh, go into it and, and pick it apart.
[11:22.120 --> 11:24.680]  They're just going to condemn the whole thing and walk away from it.
[11:26.300 --> 11:26.660]  Okay.
[11:26.800 --> 11:29.060]  Let's, let's, let's listen to a more reasoned approach.
[11:29.460 --> 11:30.620]  Still negative, but more reasoned.
[11:30.760 --> 11:30.980]  All right.
[11:31.820 --> 11:32.940]  From a BIA listener, obviously.
[11:33.440 --> 11:40.440]  Uh, I just listened to the broadcast from the 4th, uh, although I read the headline on the 2600 webpage about Mr. McGinnis' disturbing incident earlier in the week.
[11:40.640 --> 11:51.220]  I have to say, Emmanuel, I was slightly disappointed with your lack of journalistic, or for the more important matter, hackeristic, if that's a word, skepticism, in regard to the facts of his alleged run-in with the Secret Service.
[11:51.540 --> 11:56.040]  I am not in any way trying to suggest that Mr. McGinnis didn't have this happen to him.
[11:56.040 --> 12:03.000]  However, the way that you presented the story, it seems as if the amount of facts that you had to work with were essentially the same as those that I had.
[12:03.180 --> 12:08.280]  That is, the letter sent to you by Mr. McGinnis, which I assume was the basis for the release on your website.
[12:08.860 --> 12:14.080]  Based on his uncollaborated account, you reported this story as if there was no possibility of a scam here.
[12:14.660 --> 12:23.700]  This story is potentially the most terrifying example of the post-9-11 abuses of power, but if it is a lie, then the panic that it creates is hardly worthwhile.
[12:24.300 --> 12:28.280]  The people who would be alerted by a story like this need to know where our government stands accurately.
[12:29.160 --> 12:33.960]  Well, just to step in for a moment, there are other stories like this.
[12:34.420 --> 12:35.440]  We've been alerted to them.
[12:35.520 --> 12:36.360]  We've heard them before.
[12:36.840 --> 12:40.740]  Sarah, if you had something similar sort of happen to you under the Brooklyn Bridge, was it?
[12:40.840 --> 12:41.680]  Or the Manhattan Bridge?
[12:41.780 --> 12:42.820]  It was under the Brooklyn Bridge, right?
[12:42.820 --> 12:45.020]  Uh-huh, where someone told you to stop taking pictures?
[12:45.320 --> 12:53.600]  I was taking photographs of a police car that was sort of in the distance, and as soon as I raised my camera to my eye, it started moving towards me.
[12:54.480 --> 12:56.440]  I got a few nice pictures of it moving towards me.
[12:56.520 --> 12:58.880]  It was a nice shot.
[12:59.060 --> 13:04.400]  And the guy told me that there were no taking pictures, not just of him, but no pictures under the Brooklyn Bridge at all.
[13:04.960 --> 13:11.040]  Yeah, now, if you believe that that's a fallacy, we invite people to go over there and try taking pictures and see what happens.
[13:12.100 --> 13:18.700]  Friday night at the meeting, we were told by the security to not take pictures of each other inside the City Corp building.
[13:18.780 --> 13:19.320]  I heard that.
[13:19.460 --> 13:20.260]  I heard someone say that.
[13:20.340 --> 13:21.160]  That's absurd.
[13:22.040 --> 13:22.700]  I heard that you say it.
[13:22.700 --> 13:23.960]  Not taking pictures of our own attendees.
[13:24.320 --> 13:26.160]  You heard me say it, yes, because I did say it then.
[13:26.160 --> 13:27.300]  No, no, the security guard.
[13:27.300 --> 13:30.880]  I heard him telling our person that they couldn't take pictures.
[13:30.880 --> 13:32.040]  But you didn't hear him saying it was absurd.
[13:32.180 --> 13:32.780]  That's what I'm saying.
[13:32.920 --> 13:33.620]  Oh, I agree.
[13:33.740 --> 13:35.120]  And I say it again.
[13:35.120 --> 13:41.420]  It is absurd because not being able to take pictures of people inside a meeting place, that's nuts.
[13:41.860 --> 13:45.960]  That person, I would say that person is woefully misinformed.
[13:46.200 --> 13:48.140]  I don't think that's a policy over there.
[13:48.140 --> 13:50.700]  If it is, it's certainly one we're going to challenge.
[13:52.320 --> 13:59.700]  But the more scary types of things are when you're threatened with arrest for actually taking pictures of inanimate objects, such as buildings and things like that.
[14:00.400 --> 14:07.320]  We've heard numerous instances where, you know, some kind of funny, where security guards say that you're not allowed to take pictures of a building because it's copyrighted.
[14:07.740 --> 14:12.560]  And more scary ones where police actually threaten you with arrest or confiscate your film.
[14:12.720 --> 14:13.440]  It does happen.
[14:14.340 --> 14:18.020]  So, yes, we didn't have evidence of it actually happening.
[14:18.140 --> 14:20.580]  I'm not quite sure what kind of evidence people want us to have.
[14:21.180 --> 14:24.240]  Perhaps we could have cameras up everywhere recording everything that goes on.
[14:24.460 --> 14:28.320]  The only people that could corroborate the story were, A, people walking by.
[14:28.860 --> 14:30.780]  And so far, nobody has come forward.
[14:30.840 --> 14:32.840]  And I'm not sure how many people were even there at that time.
[14:33.140 --> 14:34.520]  And, B, the police themselves.
[14:34.760 --> 14:35.500]  Now, I don't know.
[14:36.080 --> 14:42.660]  Very many people watch TV programs like NYPD Blue or, you know, Homicide or whatever, you know, the latest police stories are.
[14:43.580 --> 14:47.660]  But, you know, I see instances on those programs which are based on reality.
[14:47.660 --> 14:49.400]  Where police do break the rules.
[14:49.580 --> 14:51.360]  And they're very good at covering it up.
[14:51.520 --> 14:53.580]  So they can say, no, we have no record of this.
[14:53.660 --> 14:55.880]  And they don't have any record of it because they destroyed the record.
[14:56.140 --> 14:58.740]  And I'm not saying that's what happened here.
[14:58.760 --> 15:00.440]  I'm saying that is a possibility.
[15:00.740 --> 15:02.700]  And that's something you do have to consider.
[15:03.200 --> 15:07.560]  And who better to cover something up than people who are holding on to all the records.
[15:08.360 --> 15:17.080]  So, whether or not you believe that this actually happened, at least accept the possibility that that is distinctly, you know, a possibility.
[15:18.260 --> 15:20.600]  And I don't see any other clear way of saying that.
[15:20.800 --> 15:21.580]  Let's continue with this letter.
[15:21.580 --> 15:23.740]  I'm someone who has participated in protest.
[15:23.980 --> 15:25.560]  I've had a run-in with the Secret Service myself.
[15:25.780 --> 15:28.200]  And I understand all too well what is going on in the world right now.
[15:28.580 --> 15:34.220]  But this isn't a time to believe everything everyone is telling you, even if it does seem like they are from the good guy camp.
[15:34.520 --> 15:37.500]  Again, you know, we're reporting this person's story.
[15:37.900 --> 15:41.640]  The only option that we would have would be to tell the person, sorry, we can't help you.
[15:41.640 --> 15:48.120]  We can't give you a voice, you know, because, you know, you're not presenting us with the documentation.
[15:49.120 --> 15:57.460]  We could say sorry to Kevin Mitnick for saying he's in solitary confinement for eight months because he didn't produce a receipt from the prison people saying he was in solitary confinement for eight months.
[15:57.580 --> 16:02.620]  We can tell Bernie, yes, sorry, you know, there's no proof that you were actually attacked in the jail.
[16:02.820 --> 16:03.620]  You know, maybe you hit yourself.
[16:03.620 --> 16:04.680]  We don't know that.
[16:04.680 --> 16:14.880]  So, you know, unless you provide us with the actual truth, we're not going to, you know, with paper documentation from the various people that you are actually accusing, we can't give you that voice.
[16:15.200 --> 16:20.640]  You know, there comes a time where you just have to allow people who are listening and reading to judge for themselves.
[16:20.640 --> 16:24.680]  And that's what I think we attempt to do here on the program, through the magazine, on the website.
[16:25.020 --> 16:26.380]  We present a lot of information.
[16:26.380 --> 16:27.820]  People write in letters to us.
[16:28.000 --> 16:33.280]  And, you know, sometimes you have to say, yeah, that person's lying or that person's telling the truth or that happened to me.
[16:34.000 --> 16:41.920]  I want to point out that we don't give carte blanche to anybody who has an anti-government, anti-Patriot Act, anti-whatever story.
[16:42.120 --> 16:50.760]  You may recall a couple months after 9-11, somebody called up and said that they were harassed by the National Guard, I believe at Penn Station or Grand Central for some reason.
[16:51.600 --> 16:54.940]  And that the guy actually pointed an M-16 at him.
[16:55.020 --> 17:00.700]  And somebody else called up and pointed out that at the time, the Guard was not carrying rifles.
[17:00.700 --> 17:01.340]  Mm-hmm.
[17:01.760 --> 17:03.520]  And we reported that as well.
[17:03.720 --> 17:03.860]  Yeah.
[17:04.580 --> 17:07.720]  There's no way we can be everywhere and know who has what and what's doing what.
[17:07.720 --> 17:10.820]  If people can poke holes in this, they're invited to try.
[17:11.460 --> 17:12.400]  We'll listen to that, too.
[17:12.480 --> 17:16.380]  Plus, you have to ask yourself the question, why would somebody make something like that up?
[17:16.460 --> 17:22.840]  I mean, okay, I think no matter what side we're on, we know why the police would not want that information to get out.
[17:23.020 --> 17:29.700]  They would not want to be seen as bullies, people who arrest folks for walking down the street taking pictures.
[17:29.700 --> 17:32.980]  You can sort of see why that would be a bad image to convey.
[17:33.180 --> 17:38.020]  Whether or not they did it or not, we can understand why somebody would want to cover that up.
[17:38.260 --> 17:49.740]  Now, I cannot, and I've thought about this in a while, why would somebody make up a story like this using their real name, where they're easily traceable, and then, you know, not have some kind of agenda?
[17:51.100 --> 17:54.240]  Well, if it is his real name, and I don't know if that's been established.
[17:54.240 --> 18:00.380]  Well, we basically match the phone number with the name, we have an address, we have all kinds of information that's very easily obtainable.
[18:00.580 --> 18:07.280]  There are a lot of people who have a political agenda that they want to advance, or they want to be a part of a bigger political agenda.
[18:07.280 --> 18:08.680]  So there are reasons, okay?
[18:08.700 --> 18:09.560]  It's not that outrageous.
[18:09.760 --> 18:16.400]  Right, but the thing is, you know, this person did not represent the group, was not actively involved in anything, just seemed like a normal person.
[18:16.400 --> 18:17.420]  That's a smoking gun.
[18:17.500 --> 18:19.120]  If they're subtle, they're advancing the agenda.
[18:19.120 --> 18:28.620]  The only thing I could see would be getting the thrill of, you know, of fooling us and getting, you know, his voice on the radio, which, you know, isn't that hard to do as far as getting the voice on the radio, fooling us, you know, you could do that,
[18:28.660 --> 18:29.000]  I suppose.
[18:29.600 --> 18:30.740]  But why stop there?
[18:30.780 --> 18:31.900]  Why not continue going on?
[18:32.000 --> 18:33.740]  Why use your real name, you know?
[18:34.600 --> 18:39.100]  Why report things that are, you know, that are actually going on in your town?
[18:39.120 --> 18:45.380]  Why not report on something that, you know, isn't so easy to check to make sure it was really going on?
[18:45.380 --> 18:51.600]  And there is a major difference in the story that we got last week and this week, which, again, I'm going to get into.
[18:51.740 --> 18:53.060]  A major one and a minor one, too.
[18:53.460 --> 18:54.840]  But let me finish with this letter first.
[18:55.460 --> 18:57.920]  Once again, I don't mean any disrespect to Mr. McGinnis.
[18:57.980 --> 19:00.060]  I especially mean no disrespect to the staff.
[19:00.900 --> 19:03.080]  I've been reading the magazine, listening to Off the Hook for years now.
[19:03.100 --> 19:05.300]  This is the first time I felt the need to correspond with anyone.
[19:05.300 --> 19:16.640]  This may seem like a minor issue to make such a big uproar over, but I think it is very important in this time of dramatic extremism to keep some bastion of critical analysis alive to say to the mob that we are still primarily scientific creatures.
[19:16.860 --> 19:17.900]  Nothing I disagree with there.
[19:18.440 --> 19:23.340]  I hope Mr. McGinnis is able to obtain some sort of evidence of this heinous disregard for his rights as a citizen.
[19:23.960 --> 19:26.560]  When this happens, I hope that the story breaks across the country.
[19:26.660 --> 19:31.360]  Until that time, I wish him and yourselves best of luck in these times of questionable reality.
[19:31.940 --> 19:38.680]  And thanks from that listener whose name I'm not even going to try to pronounce, but thanks again for sending in your thoughts and everybody else who sent in their thoughts as well.
[19:38.880 --> 19:40.660]  I read a lot of the positive ones.
[19:40.820 --> 19:41.640]  Negative ones, right?
[19:41.720 --> 19:42.640]  Those were the negative ones.
[19:43.520 --> 19:45.600]  Let me just quickly read a few of the positive ones.
[19:46.540 --> 19:47.960]  Wait, how are you defining negative?
[19:48.260 --> 19:53.520]  People who call us, you know, leftist wackos that are planting stories, us taking away the freedoms of people.
[19:53.740 --> 19:56.140]  Some of the letters you read were quite positive, but questioning.
[19:56.460 --> 19:59.120]  Like, yeah, well, no, that one particularly.
[19:59.320 --> 19:59.480]  Right.
[20:01.360 --> 20:04.520]  That's, I guess, the segue between the two worlds.
[20:06.520 --> 20:12.660]  Regarding Mr. McGinnis, I made a speech about the potential abuses under the Patriot Act to my college class, and my classmates laughed at me.
[20:12.880 --> 20:14.820]  Will they still be laughing in a year or so?
[20:15.680 --> 20:18.840]  Well, it depends how funny you were, but probably not.
[20:19.060 --> 20:25.040]  They probably will have stopped laughing even by now, and I'm sure by next year they won't be laughing about very much at all.
[20:27.580 --> 20:28.180]  Another letter.
[20:28.320 --> 20:37.980]  Within the constraints of civility and honoring the man's need for privacy, please add my name to those who believe his story, sympathize with his plight, and actively oppose the reign of our new Sauron.
[20:38.000 --> 20:38.740]  Is that how you pronounce it?
[20:39.900 --> 20:42.500]  The second dark lord from Lord of the Rings?
[20:42.620 --> 20:43.220]  Yeah, Sauron.
[20:43.220 --> 20:43.660]  Sauron, okay.
[20:44.660 --> 20:45.620]  Nice reference there.
[20:47.160 --> 20:47.900]  Let's see.
[20:48.100 --> 20:49.300]  I'm currently listening to your broadcast.
[20:49.300 --> 20:53.800]  Being an amateur photographer for many years, I can identify with your guest and the problems he recently encountered.
[20:54.260 --> 20:55.620]  Perhaps that is an understatement.
[20:56.420 --> 21:02.940]  Unfortunately, I'm not able to phone in right now, but I thought you'd be interested in this information.
[21:03.880 --> 21:09.640]  That describes a similar, but not quite as serious an experience that another amateur photographer had.
[21:09.740 --> 21:13.880]  And this is yet another link to a story that somebody else sent us.
[21:14.600 --> 21:20.380]  As to legal issues about photographing public buildings from public streets, some buildings have had their facades copyrighted.
[21:20.400 --> 21:21.360]  This is what I was mentioning before.
[21:21.680 --> 21:30.380]  And as such, formal permission is needed to photograph them, rarely enforced for personal use, but if such an image is to be used commercially, then proper authorization is needed.
[21:31.080 --> 21:34.420]  It seems some cities have actually copyrighted their skylines.
[21:35.200 --> 21:37.060]  And again, you know, that's a statement.
[21:38.240 --> 21:39.580]  I've not proven that statement.
[21:39.700 --> 21:49.080]  That might be false, but that's what someone is saying, and it sounds crazy enough to be true, and maybe somebody could send us more specific information if a city has actually copyrighted its skylines.
[21:50.120 --> 21:54.540]  In my own personal experience, the most interesting encounter I had was in Galway, Ireland.
[21:54.540 --> 22:00.860]  I was walking around the city with my camera hanging from my neck when a very polite military officer approached me.
[22:01.020 --> 22:08.840]  He explained that an armored car was delivering cash to a bank on the next block, and he would appreciate it if I had put my camera back in my camera bag.
[22:09.260 --> 22:13.220]  When he finished, he pointed to the building tops around me that were covered with snipers.
[22:13.220 --> 22:20.920]  It seems that such cash deliveries were a favorite target of the IRA, and anyone photographing in the vicinity is considered an IRA conspirator.
[22:21.900 --> 22:22.700]  Isn't there something?
[22:23.940 --> 22:27.000]  And that's another little fact there.
[22:29.660 --> 22:30.280]  Let's see.
[22:30.360 --> 22:39.140]  I believe that the atmosphere created by the Patriot Act, and Patriot in quotes, of course, can definitely lead to the kind of events in that man's story, but it is important to be sure that they really happened.
[22:39.140 --> 22:39.640]  I agree.
[22:40.240 --> 22:50.340]  If you want to use this as a means of challenging the legitimacy of the police work, the Patriot Act, etc., I'm so disgusted by the Patriot Act, I can barely summon the ambition to press the shift key while I type its name.
[22:51.160 --> 22:53.640]  A lot of people are not capitalizing it at all.
[22:55.980 --> 23:00.560]  Well, I mean, there are tons of letters here, and we've gotten all kinds of response.
[23:00.560 --> 23:08.480]  I have to say, I'm actually kind of happy with the media response, because we did get calls from all kinds of media.
[23:09.260 --> 23:11.900]  Unfortunately, we're not able to pursue the story any further.
[23:14.440 --> 23:20.040]  Basically, what happens when you get involved in something like this, it can be terrifying.
[23:20.300 --> 23:25.520]  And just seeing the kind of mail we've been getting, imagine just being a normal person.
[23:25.520 --> 23:33.220]  And again, I'm conjecturing here, I'm imagining what it must be like to be a normal person when something like this happens to you, and then all of a sudden you're the focus of attention.
[23:34.040 --> 23:38.760]  That is what happened to Mike McGinnis, according to his account, obviously.
[23:39.620 --> 23:42.860]  And he really just at this point wants to be left alone.
[23:42.860 --> 23:44.280]  I can totally understand that.
[23:45.040 --> 23:50.660]  We verified as much of the story as we were able to verify, and that's what we reported.
[23:50.660 --> 23:56.520]  And it's up to other people, perhaps people inside the police department, to do more, but I really don't think that's going to happen.
[23:56.740 --> 23:59.760]  It's up to people who are in the neighborhood to let us know more.
[24:00.040 --> 24:02.700]  Again, I'm not sure if that's even possible.
[24:03.540 --> 24:15.420]  I can tell you that what we were able to investigate a little further, we found something that was kind of, I guess, a big detail that we got wrong, that we only just found out about today.
[24:15.700 --> 24:17.920]  In fact, let me tell you how I found out about it.
[24:20.260 --> 24:21.140]  There is...
[24:21.620 --> 24:23.540]  Give me a second, I've got to find the...
[24:23.540 --> 24:24.060]  Oh, here it is.
[24:25.820 --> 24:29.640]  On a mailing list today, there was a letter posted.
[24:29.880 --> 24:34.520]  Now, apparently, somebody in the Denver Police Department did answer somebody else.
[24:34.660 --> 24:38.660]  They never got back to us, which, you know, you have to ask yourself, why?
[24:38.800 --> 24:41.280]  Why not get back to somebody who's reporting something like this?
[24:41.280 --> 24:50.460]  But they never did, never commented, just to tell the ACLU lawyer that McGinnis had contact them that it never happened.
[24:51.820 --> 24:53.820]  This letter reads as follows.
[24:56.580 --> 24:57.580]  Dear sir...
[24:57.580 --> 25:03.460]  This is a police officer writing back to somebody who, I guess, had an email address for a cop or something like that.
[25:03.660 --> 25:05.380]  I guess we should have had those addresses.
[25:05.380 --> 25:07.600]  Apparently, the information you received is false.
[25:07.760 --> 25:10.360]  The Secret Service has flatly denied any such contact occurred.
[25:10.800 --> 25:14.100]  Also, our PIO published the following information.
[25:15.220 --> 25:18.640]  Although we couldn't find any place this information was published, but it was published someplace.
[25:18.960 --> 25:23.620]  I have received numerous inquiries regarding a male party identified as Mike McGinnis.
[25:23.860 --> 25:29.620]  This party is claiming that he was taken into custody as he was photographing an area in which Vice President Cheney was visiting.
[25:29.620 --> 25:36.980]  The party also claimed that he was taken to Police District 1 and was held for six hours until the Secret Service came to interview him.
[25:37.420 --> 25:42.860]  I have done some research, and we have no record of anyone with this identity being contacted and transported to District 1.
[25:43.220 --> 25:45.920]  This party is claiming this incident took place on Tuesday.
[25:46.180 --> 25:50.500]  From my understanding, the Vice President was in town on Monday for three hours before departing.
[25:50.820 --> 25:53.220]  District 1 had only four arrests taken to the station.
[25:53.400 --> 25:55.680]  All were processed between the hours of 1.15 a.m.
[25:55.680 --> 25:58.240]  and 5.30 a.m., and none of them were identified as Mike McGinnis.
[25:58.240 --> 26:03.680]  It is also the policy of the Denver Police Department that prisoners awaiting transport are not allowed to make phone calls.
[26:03.880 --> 26:09.600]  This would dispute the statement by Mr. Mike McGinnis that he was allowed to make a phone call, and instead of contacting a lawyer, he called the Denver Post.
[26:09.820 --> 26:15.100]  His staff would have also advised the District 1 commander of the Secret Service were interviewing anyone at his district.
[26:15.300 --> 26:17.580]  He was not informed of any situation taking place.
[26:17.940 --> 26:20.800]  Thank you for taking the time to verify the validity of this man's accusations.
[26:21.260 --> 26:27.420]  Again, that was a quote from the PIO from another police officer named Lieutenant Stephen Carter.
[26:27.420 --> 26:38.080]  We contacted Stephen Carter today, asked him if he would like to be on this radio program, and he basically responded that he had no interest in helping us cover our asses.
[26:38.840 --> 26:41.280]  That is the attitude that we are faced with.
[26:41.460 --> 26:50.600]  We asked him to put us in touch with the PIO who published this, have them come on the radio, and simply set the story straight, which is what we wanted to do all along.
[26:51.500 --> 26:53.100]  That person never called us back.
[26:53.680 --> 27:00.200]  So you have to ask yourself, you know, why not talk to the people that are reporting stories like this?
[27:00.300 --> 27:01.900]  Why not try to clear up the record?
[27:02.420 --> 27:10.820]  This person was also extremely concerned that we were going to have him in some kind of a debate with Mike McGinnis, and he wanted to avoid that at all costs.
[27:11.300 --> 27:18.140]  We weren't planning on doing that, although I have to wonder why, if you have the facts on your side, you would want to avoid talking to somebody who's accusing you otherwise.
[27:19.400 --> 27:24.600]  Now, there is one thing that came out of this, which I thought was very significant, and which we have since checked into.
[27:25.100 --> 27:31.140]  That is the report that the vice president was only in town on Monday, and this report clearly said that this happened on Tuesday.
[27:31.760 --> 27:35.300]  We talked to some people at the hotel undercover.
[27:35.640 --> 27:40.380]  We, you know, kind of gained their trust and learned what was really going on over there.
[27:40.820 --> 27:45.880]  And they told us, in fact, yes, the vice president was only there on Monday, was not there on Tuesday.
[27:47.420 --> 28:00.100]  So, at that point, you know, I had some pretty serious questions in my mind as well, because, you know, if you're going to get something as, you know, clear as the day wrong, you have to have some very serious questions about the story.
[28:01.020 --> 28:06.160]  Then we found out that Vice President Cheney was talking to a conference.
[28:06.980 --> 28:14.940]  He was talking to a bunch of, I think, National Guard people or something like that.
[28:15.000 --> 28:16.140]  I don't have the exact name of them.
[28:16.520 --> 28:17.840]  But there was...
[28:17.840 --> 28:19.260]  This might be it here.
[28:19.840 --> 28:23.060]  The Air National Guard's Senior Leadership Conference.
[28:23.060 --> 28:24.740]  That's what was taking place in Denver.
[28:25.860 --> 28:28.160]  He was speaking to that conference.
[28:28.360 --> 28:31.860]  That conference, however, continued through the entire week.
[28:31.860 --> 28:36.800]  And there was also massive amounts of law enforcement in the area.
[28:37.160 --> 28:38.740]  It's quite possible...
[28:38.740 --> 28:44.060]  Again, I'm theorizing here, but it's quite possible that what McGinnis believed was...
[28:44.060 --> 28:45.920]  What we believed, that the vice president was still there.
[28:46.200 --> 28:50.700]  Since nobody knows where the vice president is, he could be downstairs for all I know.
[28:50.820 --> 28:52.420]  I don't know where the vice president is.
[28:52.520 --> 28:53.920]  Nobody will tell us where he is.
[28:53.920 --> 29:00.200]  So it's not that far a reach for somebody who knew, based on news reports, that he was in town on Monday giving a speech.
[29:00.520 --> 29:04.960]  When he walked by the hotel, saw all the police, he figured he was still there.
[29:05.100 --> 29:06.300]  I can understand that.
[29:06.340 --> 29:06.980]  I can see that.
[29:07.080 --> 29:10.380]  And that's what I believe is how it transpired.
[29:12.040 --> 29:12.680]  I don't know.
[29:12.840 --> 29:14.580]  Any thoughts or questions on that?
[29:15.120 --> 29:22.300]  The only point I can make is, having been in that town, staying at that hotel, less than a block away, is the Denver Mint.
[29:22.900 --> 29:23.820]  Oh, okay.
[29:23.920 --> 29:24.480]  Yeah, that's right.
[29:24.700 --> 29:25.800]  The Denver Mint is right there, too.
[29:25.940 --> 29:27.620]  So do you think they always have...
[29:27.620 --> 29:28.460]  I don't know.
[29:29.280 --> 29:31.800]  I didn't notice any snipers a couple years ago.
[29:32.040 --> 29:32.280]  Mm-hmm.
[29:32.960 --> 29:41.980]  The other thing, the other minor thing that I noticed, while I'm looking closely at this, we received the mail originally a little after...
[29:41.980 --> 29:43.900]  It was either a little after 12 p.m.
[29:43.900 --> 29:45.420]  or a little before 1 p.m.
[29:45.880 --> 29:46.780]  on Tuesday.
[29:46.920 --> 29:49.540]  That's Mountain Time, or whatever time zone Denver is in.
[29:50.500 --> 29:52.540]  Now, McGinnis claimed he was held for six hours.
[29:52.740 --> 29:56.320]  That would mean that it was pretty early in the morning when he was walking by there.
[29:56.400 --> 29:57.960]  In fact, it would probably still be dark.
[29:58.260 --> 30:01.480]  And to me, that just seems a little unusual.
[30:02.540 --> 30:03.080]  What I...
[30:03.080 --> 30:12.680]  Again, you know, I'm not looking for excuses here, but I think it's entirely possible that, you know, when you're held in a police station, time passing might not be something that you're paying close attention to.
[30:12.800 --> 30:13.160]  I don't know.
[30:13.160 --> 30:15.320]  But that's the other thing that bothered me.
[30:15.620 --> 30:27.700]  Of everything, talking to the person, you know, on the phone and on the radio and going over the facts that we did have, those are the only two things that I can point to that I had real problems with.
[30:28.040 --> 30:32.500]  Obviously, not having physical evidence is something that I prefer to have.
[30:33.080 --> 30:39.280]  And if anyone has suggestions as to how to get that, you know, from a third party of some sort, I'd love to know how to do that.
[30:39.280 --> 30:45.220]  But it's basically a story, do you believe that this is possible or not?
[30:45.300 --> 30:46.940]  And that's something I firmly believe.
[30:47.000 --> 30:47.860]  Yes, this is possible.
[30:48.780 --> 30:53.460]  Well, I was thinking that if we... if you had...
[30:53.460 --> 31:09.600]  if we had the precise time that this happened and some passerby saw him being taken in by the police, you know, if somebody connected with that unknown person...
[31:09.600 --> 31:11.520]  But, you know, it's... here's the funny thing.
[31:11.660 --> 31:17.120]  When you... and I've encountered this many times with lots of people who get into trouble of all sorts.
[31:17.280 --> 31:19.080]  And a lot of people out there have gotten into trouble.
[31:19.700 --> 31:23.200]  A lot of people out there have witnessed cops doing things they shouldn't do.
[31:24.020 --> 31:30.780]  And I can think of the number of people that would challenge that and pursue it, I can count on one hand.
[31:30.780 --> 31:33.660]  And it's... you know, I have plenty of space left over.
[31:34.320 --> 31:37.960]  It's... it's something we can't expect people to do.
[31:38.100 --> 31:38.980]  We can't expect people...
[31:38.980 --> 31:51.780]  When McGinnis said to me after the show that, you know, when the reporters started calling his parents and, you know, when he started getting notes on his door from angry people, I'm not going to tell somebody you have to pursue this.
[31:52.000 --> 31:52.860]  You know, it's your obligation.
[31:52.860 --> 31:56.640]  We've gotten mail from people saying that he has the obligation now to do this.
[31:56.700 --> 31:57.380]  No, he does not.
[31:58.300 --> 32:02.000]  He spoke out and let's hope that what he said...
[32:02.000 --> 32:11.480]  I mean, I don't hope that what he said is true, but let's hope that, you know, he wasn't, you know, kidding us around and take it from there, you know, and make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen.
[32:11.800 --> 32:13.360]  And if that never happened, great.
[32:13.560 --> 32:14.800]  Let's make sure it doesn't happen anyway.
[32:15.200 --> 32:36.300]  Anyway, it seems to me that the attitude that the police are taking on this, a haughty attitude toward a reporter for the public who represents the public, to take that attitude shows a lack of regard for the citizenry that they're allegedly protecting.
[32:36.600 --> 32:37.100]  Absolutely.
[32:37.340 --> 32:39.940]  Well, not that they're protecting us over here in New York, but...
[32:39.940 --> 32:40.540]  Allegedly.
[32:40.720 --> 32:40.860]  Yeah.
[32:41.020 --> 32:47.420]  The fact is, you know, I do think they have an obligation to at least let us know what's going on if somebody says something.
[32:47.600 --> 32:56.800]  If somebody accuses them of misbehaving, at least, you know, have the decency to get back to us and say, you know, that's not true and, you know, we'll answer whatever questions you have and tell you what we can.
[32:58.620 --> 33:00.460]  They didn't do that, and you have to wonder why.
[33:00.580 --> 33:11.840]  And we also aren't able to get clearly any statement from anybody as to whether or not someone doing something like this in the future will get arrested or in trouble or warned or anything like that.
[33:12.140 --> 33:12.960]  Simple question.
[33:13.060 --> 33:28.640]  And if anyone out there, you know, listening in the government or whatever or, you know, has friends that might know the answer to this, is it illegal to take pictures of security forces of the vice president or the building that he's in or anything like that?
[33:29.120 --> 33:30.740]  We can't get a straight answer to that.
[33:31.060 --> 33:36.980]  And, you know, I would believe their side a lot quicker if they were adamantly saying, of course you have the right to do this.
[33:37.000 --> 33:37.900]  This is a free country.
[33:37.900 --> 33:39.560]  You can take pictures of whatever you want.
[33:39.720 --> 33:43.680]  You know, as long as you're not trespassing, you're in a public street taking a picture of a public building.
[33:43.680 --> 33:48.800]  You know, if there's a military battalion going by, well, you know, that's their problem.
[33:48.860 --> 33:49.520]  They're on a public street.
[33:49.580 --> 33:50.940]  You can take pictures of whatever you want.
[33:51.020 --> 33:52.180]  I want to hear somebody say that.
[33:52.500 --> 33:53.360]  Not just us.
[33:53.560 --> 33:54.200]  Not us.
[33:54.360 --> 33:57.620]  You know, people that, you know, know these things that are in the government.
[33:59.000 --> 34:00.640]  What about press conferences?
[34:00.640 --> 34:03.820]  Like when they're held on the steps of federal courthouses?
[34:04.160 --> 34:04.440]  Mm-hmm.
[34:04.640 --> 34:05.600]  Doesn't that also...
[34:05.600 --> 34:11.560]  If it wasn't legal to take pictures of federal courthouses, then those press conferences wouldn't happen.
[34:11.560 --> 34:12.040]  Mm-hmm.
[34:12.260 --> 34:13.920]  You see, I think it's selectively enforced.
[34:14.000 --> 34:24.560]  Obviously, if you're NBC or something and you're giving a, you know, some kind of reporter is reporting on something outside a courthouse, I don't think they're going to bother them the same way they bother people like us.
[34:24.760 --> 34:27.940]  And I think they might return their phone calls but not return our phone calls.
[34:29.120 --> 34:30.520]  You know, that's great.
[34:30.700 --> 34:33.900]  Tom Brokaw won't be, you know, harassed if he takes a picture of the vice president.
[34:33.900 --> 34:36.720]  But we need to know if the Mike McGinnises of the world will be.
[34:37.000 --> 34:38.660]  And that's a very important question.
[34:40.700 --> 34:47.680]  You know, it's easy to say that, you know, the story has, doesn't have as many facts as you would like.
[34:47.880 --> 34:53.220]  On the same mailing list, let's read what was said here, which I think was pretty funny.
[34:54.880 --> 34:57.560]  This was written by the moderator.
[34:58.160 --> 35:02.900]  There seemed to be some details were missing that would buttress photographer Mike McGinnis' story.
[35:03.060 --> 35:05.580]  What were the names of the police officers allegedly involved?
[35:05.580 --> 35:07.940]  Who was a desk sergeant who allegedly hung up the phone?
[35:08.400 --> 35:12.360]  Why did McGinnis not want to talk to a reporter with the Rocky Mountain News a few days later?
[35:13.020 --> 35:16.080]  Without those details, that would make the story more readily verifiable.
[35:16.080 --> 35:19.940]  It's much easier to accept the police response that his story is not true.
[35:21.000 --> 35:22.680]  This is something I just do not get.
[35:22.680 --> 35:25.860]  Of course, it's easy to accept the story.
[35:25.960 --> 35:29.720]  That's the whole point, is that you question things.
[35:29.760 --> 35:33.500]  It's easy to accept what the authority figures tell you and not question them.
[35:33.500 --> 35:37.780]  Hmm, I don't see them being questioned with this kind of a statement.
[35:38.280 --> 35:46.660]  I think it's, you know, you have to come up with something and see if they're willing to address that issue, which they were not.
[35:46.960 --> 35:59.460]  I would also point out that when I have dealt with police officers in the past, I generally don't have the presence of mind to take down everyone's name and remember it until I can get to a place with a piece of paper to write it down.
[35:59.480 --> 36:00.820]  Right, and they don't like it when you do that.
[36:00.820 --> 36:02.320]  They really don't like it when you do that.
[36:02.760 --> 36:09.360]  There are cases where, you know, all kinds of threats are thrown at people that are writing down information like that.
[36:09.780 --> 36:11.240]  I don't think it takes much.
[36:11.300 --> 36:18.440]  Whether or not you believe that they're right or wrong here, I don't think it takes much to realize that it's possible that, you know, they could cover things up a lot easier.
[36:19.000 --> 36:29.280]  And if I was going to make up a story like this, I'd do it, you know, without getting my real name into the press and without, you know, without basically opening myself up to all kinds of problems.
[36:29.280 --> 36:30.520]  You have to take that into account.
[36:30.680 --> 36:31.320]  And I think that's...
[36:31.320 --> 36:35.240]  A lot of people are skipping right over that and choosing the easy way.
[36:35.460 --> 36:38.640]  And it's, you know, I don't think it's quite right to do that.
[36:39.760 --> 36:41.040]  Okay, so we take some phone calls.
[36:41.120 --> 36:43.640]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[36:43.660 --> 36:47.220]  Oh, yeah, we have some more legal updates from other...
[36:47.220 --> 36:49.200]  Everyone is on trial this week.
[36:49.220 --> 36:49.840]  Yeah, everyone's on trial.
[36:50.600 --> 36:51.940]  Dmitry Sklerov is on...
[36:51.940 --> 36:53.360]  His company is on trial.
[36:53.540 --> 36:54.740]  He is not...
[36:54.740 --> 36:57.640]  No, wait, but before you get into that, funny story here.
[36:57.840 --> 37:00.720]  They wouldn't let him into the country because he had been arrested.
[37:00.940 --> 37:01.180]  Right.
[37:01.280 --> 37:06.500]  Even though he was coming back into the country to testify because the Justice Department said testify against Elcomsoff.
[37:06.500 --> 37:11.660]  Apparently that was resolved because according to this reliable source, he testified.
[37:11.980 --> 37:17.620]  But I just think it's, you know, it's pretty funny that they wouldn't let him in the country because of their rules, the Justice Department versus the Treasury Department.
[37:17.840 --> 37:18.400]  State Department.
[37:19.380 --> 37:19.820]  Isn't...
[37:19.820 --> 37:20.800]  Oh, is it State Department?
[37:20.980 --> 37:21.540]  State Department.
[37:26.820 --> 37:35.080]  His company is accused of criminal violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, a law familiar to many of our listeners, no doubt.
[37:37.300 --> 37:40.360]  His lawyer asked him, was it your intent to violate anyone's rights?
[37:40.440 --> 37:41.820]  And he replied, no.
[37:42.680 --> 37:44.520]  So, that's that story.
[37:44.680 --> 37:45.340]  Can I go home now?
[37:46.000 --> 37:47.140]  Well, he can go home.
[37:47.220 --> 37:50.780]  The question is whether there are criminal penalties against his company or not.
[37:50.880 --> 37:52.540]  He said a lot more than that, though, didn't he?
[37:52.680 --> 37:54.520]  Didn't just... Yeah, but not much of it was quoted.
[37:54.700 --> 37:55.620]  He claimed not to be a hacker.
[37:55.620 --> 37:56.960]  He claimed not to be a hacker.
[37:57.320 --> 37:58.840]  He is a computer engineer or programmer.
[38:01.080 --> 38:04.500]  The trick question... He was asked by the U.S.
[38:04.820 --> 38:09.820]  attorney, isn't it true that when you wrote this software, you didn't care whether it violated laws in the U.S.?
[38:09.820 --> 38:13.820]  And Sklerov admitted that's true, which makes sense, given that he was in Russia at the time.
[38:14.520 --> 38:19.200]  I mean, do we care that what we're talking about right now might be violating the free speech standards of Iran?
[38:19.660 --> 38:20.440]  I don't care.
[38:20.780 --> 38:22.720]  You know, that hasn't even crossed my mind.
[38:22.720 --> 38:24.360]  It bothers me deeply.
[38:24.540 --> 38:28.220]  I would like to apologize in advance to the Republic of Iran or whatever it is.
[38:28.300 --> 38:30.920]  Well, you have about 160 more countries to consider.
[38:30.920 --> 38:32.360]  I'd like to apologize to all of you.
[38:32.580 --> 38:32.960]  All right.
[38:33.100 --> 38:34.340]  Let's not go through the list.
[38:34.640 --> 38:35.560]  Now, we have another trial.
[38:35.560 --> 38:36.220]  Especially not...
[38:36.220 --> 38:38.360]  Well, John Johansson is...
[38:38.360 --> 38:40.020]  Is that how you pronounce his name?
[38:40.200 --> 38:40.600]  Johansson?
[38:40.640 --> 38:41.400]  It depends who you are.
[38:41.520 --> 38:42.640]  Some people say John Johansson.
[38:42.720 --> 38:43.840]  Some people say Jan Johansson.
[38:44.020 --> 38:45.400]  Some people say Jan Johansson.
[38:45.440 --> 38:46.600]  Some people say John Johansson.
[38:46.800 --> 38:48.080]  Well, whichever one you pick.
[38:48.120 --> 38:48.900]  He is on trial.
[38:48.900 --> 38:51.180]  I've heard him say his name, and it's not like any of those.
[38:51.720 --> 38:52.980]  He is on trial.
[38:53.360 --> 38:55.680]  He wrote some software when he was 15 years old.
[38:55.760 --> 38:58.240]  He is now 19, and they finally got around to trying him.
[39:00.320 --> 39:04.060]  More than 5,000 copies were downloaded from the Internet, say prosecutors.
[39:04.580 --> 39:10.560]  The interesting thing about this case is that there was a delay while they found competent judges who could, like, understand the technology.
[39:10.940 --> 39:12.840]  This is something I think the U.S.
[39:12.920 --> 39:14.480]  legal system should pick up on.
[39:14.480 --> 39:16.080]  So he's being tried in Norway right now.
[39:16.120 --> 39:16.540]  In Norway.
[39:16.540 --> 39:17.920]  And Demetrius being tried...
[39:17.920 --> 39:18.760]  Well, is he finished?
[39:19.020 --> 39:20.520]  He's on his way home, or is he...
[39:20.520 --> 39:22.560]  His company is being tried in California.
[39:22.720 --> 39:22.900]  Okay.
[39:24.020 --> 39:25.320]  San Jose, to be exact.
[39:25.640 --> 39:25.880]  All right.
[39:25.980 --> 39:27.960]  So, yeah, we'll see where that winds up.
[39:29.180 --> 39:34.440]  Oh, no, I just wanted to mention when you were talking about how we are concerned whether we're violating laws in other countries.
[39:34.460 --> 39:36.560]  I just want to say that my girlfriend does wear a burka.
[39:37.360 --> 39:37.720]  Uh-oh.
[39:38.760 --> 39:40.980]  Well, that might be a violation of law in some places, you know.
[39:42.280 --> 39:43.100]  Talking about it on the radio.
[39:43.320 --> 39:44.220]  Excessive modesty.
[39:44.340 --> 39:45.180]  That might be a crime.
[39:45.400 --> 39:45.600]  Okay.
[39:46.580 --> 39:51.740]  The other thing, if we have a minute, is my own website was threatened last week, as I told you.
[39:51.900 --> 39:52.620]  Do you have documentation?
[39:52.740 --> 39:53.200]  Do you get a receipt?
[39:53.440 --> 39:55.640]  I have an email if you really want to see it.
[39:55.740 --> 39:57.620]  I'll gladly forward it to anyone interested.
[39:57.820 --> 39:58.740]  How do we know that's real email?
[39:59.280 --> 40:09.740]  You know, I could be making this all up, but basically I got an email and a phone call a week ago Monday from the administration of Columbia University, where I host my website.
[40:09.740 --> 40:12.140]  That's also where you attend classes sometimes.
[40:12.440 --> 40:13.080]  Yeah, sometimes.
[40:14.800 --> 40:16.760]  Saying that they had received...
[40:16.760 --> 40:20.180]  Well, they didn't tell me this until a meeting on Wednesday, but I'll just tell the story.
[40:21.180 --> 40:24.320]  That they received an anonymous complaint about my website.
[40:25.240 --> 40:30.680]  It turns out that on my website, I have a mirror of some of the pages from raisethefist.com.
[40:30.920 --> 40:37.700]  Raisethefist is, as listeners may recall, an anarchist website run by this guy Sherman Austin in California.
[40:39.100 --> 40:52.380]  He was charged and pled guilty to distributing information about how to make a bomb with the intent that it be used, or some bizarre charge like that.
[40:52.580 --> 40:58.380]  So the information is mirrored on my webpage, and there have been anonymous complaints about it.
[40:58.500 --> 41:02.160]  So if any of those complainers are listening, I would love to hear from them.
[41:02.200 --> 41:03.940]  There have been anonymous compliments, too, though, haven't there?
[41:04.740 --> 41:05.280]  Not to me.
[41:05.280 --> 41:06.340]  You didn't get a hearing about that.
[41:06.340 --> 41:07.500]  I don't get hearing.
[41:07.680 --> 41:12.040]  So if people want to look at the website, it's mlcastle.net slash raisethefist.
[41:13.580 --> 41:19.480]  And, you know, before people get hysterical here, what you see on that page is not what Mike stands for.
[41:19.660 --> 41:23.260]  He doesn't believe in building bombs and things like that, as far as I know.
[41:23.640 --> 41:23.860]  No.
[41:23.880 --> 41:31.820]  But what he does believe in is the right of freedom of speech and dissemination of information, the kinds of things that, you know, we used to honor in this country.
[41:31.820 --> 41:37.020]  I will state, for the record, building bombs is bad whether you're the government or an anarchist or anybody.
[41:37.540 --> 41:40.760]  For blowing them already built bombs up is bad as well.
[41:41.020 --> 41:41.160]  Yeah.
[41:41.340 --> 41:42.540]  Not just the building of them.
[41:42.900 --> 41:51.280]  I think it's important that we shut down the patent office website because the patent office exists to promote the manufacture of various things.
[41:51.280 --> 41:57.220]  It says so in the Constitution, let alone in anything appropriating for the patent office.
[41:57.500 --> 42:05.700]  And on their website, you can get information on how to build guns, tanks, missiles, explosives, all sorts of stuff, because it's patented.
[42:06.900 --> 42:09.320]  While we're at it, why don't we get rid of all the engineering schools as well?
[42:09.540 --> 42:09.800]  Yeah.
[42:10.080 --> 42:12.380]  You can find all this stuff in any library as well.
[42:12.720 --> 42:13.700]  They're next on the list.
[42:13.800 --> 42:17.960]  We have to, like, get our own Taliban and get like Afghanistan.
[42:18.460 --> 42:20.320]  You know, that's the only way we'll be safe.
[42:21.280 --> 42:21.660]  All right.
[42:21.720 --> 42:23.040]  Let's take a look at a little bit of news.
[42:23.180 --> 42:27.140]  We are going to take phone calls, 212-209-2900, but I want to update people on a couple of interesting things.
[42:27.580 --> 42:30.860]  This story, I learned about this while talking to a CNN reporter.
[42:30.940 --> 42:36.420]  I talked to a lot of reporters this week, and they very much took an interest in this story.
[42:37.100 --> 42:45.640]  Unfortunately, they didn't want to move forward unless they had some kind of, you know, smoking gun, which, you know, I can understand, but I'd like to find that smoking gun myself.
[42:46.500 --> 42:47.160]  A U.S.
[42:47.240 --> 42:49.940]  man who, this story is collaborative, though.
[42:49.940 --> 42:50.240]  A U.S.
[42:50.260 --> 42:54.840]  man who talked of burning Bush, in quotes, before President George W.
[42:55.000 --> 43:01.220]  Bush visited South Dakota in 2001, was sentenced on Friday to 37 months in prison.
[43:01.860 --> 43:07.240]  Richard Humphreys of Portland, Oregon, was convicted in September of threatening to kill or harm Bush.
[43:07.800 --> 43:11.560]  Humphreys vowed to appeal the sentence, saying that the comment was his right to free speech.
[43:11.560 --> 43:14.600]  He made the remark as he talked with a truck driver at a bar room.
[43:14.760 --> 43:20.020]  Their discussion was overheard by a bartender who reported to police about the possibility of someone burning Bush.
[43:20.360 --> 43:24.180]  I said, God might speak to the world through a burning Bush.
[43:24.420 --> 43:27.020]  Humphreys testified during his trial in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
[43:27.060 --> 43:29.420]  I had said that before, and I thought it was funny.
[43:30.280 --> 43:31.000]  That's it.
[43:31.340 --> 43:33.320]  That gets you 37 months in prison.
[43:33.360 --> 43:40.680]  I've heard people say worse things on, you know, I better not say, but I've heard a lot of worse things, put it that way.
[43:41.320 --> 43:43.360]  And that's insane.
[43:43.720 --> 43:45.000]  And this is the story that's being reported.
[43:45.180 --> 43:47.280]  Now, I have to ask, is there more to this?
[43:47.380 --> 43:48.460]  Is that all he said?
[43:48.900 --> 43:52.540]  I mean, you know, burning Bush is like, you know, that could be all kinds of different things.
[43:52.820 --> 43:54.920]  And just the fact that it's his name, okay, fine.
[43:55.040 --> 43:59.240]  It still could be just, you know, a humorous image.
[43:59.240 --> 44:02.420]  And, you know, burning doesn't mean killing either, but never mind that.
[44:03.340 --> 44:06.280]  Did this guy have any intent of actually hurting anyone?
[44:06.840 --> 44:08.220]  That's the question that needs to be gassed.
[44:08.380 --> 44:12.880]  37 months in prison for saying, God might speak to the world through a burning bush.
[44:13.880 --> 44:14.940]  It doesn't add up, does it?
[44:16.180 --> 44:19.900]  Well, it does, but I should have said flaming shrubbery.
[44:20.300 --> 44:22.440]  Yeah, but then some guy named shrubbery would have gotten upset.
[44:22.680 --> 44:23.820]  Was it a jury trial?
[44:24.820 --> 44:25.740]  That's a good question.
[44:25.760 --> 44:27.160]  I didn't see any reference.
[44:28.920 --> 44:32.220]  I would imagine it was a jury trial, but it doesn't say for sure.
[44:32.300 --> 44:33.260]  We can look into that some more.
[44:35.580 --> 44:37.820]  But the sentencing, the judge does that.
[44:37.920 --> 44:37.920]  Okay.
[44:40.060 --> 44:40.840]  What else?
[44:41.700 --> 44:49.280]  More stories of people being harassed and intimidated for taking pictures of things, but I want to give people a chance to call in so we can always get to those.
[44:49.540 --> 44:56.060]  Did you read or know that the fire out at the University of Twente and their knock was actually arson?
[44:56.300 --> 44:57.160]  I heard that.
[44:57.240 --> 45:00.300]  Twente being the university where HAL 2001 took place in the Netherlands.
[45:01.240 --> 45:04.480]  They're a disgruntled network person there.
[45:04.680 --> 45:04.940]  Mm-hmm.
[45:05.440 --> 45:05.780]  Interesting.
[45:06.480 --> 45:06.640]  Yeah.
[45:06.780 --> 45:12.100]  And that was a major knock for the Netherlands, but it's being rebuilt.
[45:12.640 --> 45:13.260]  All right.
[45:13.840 --> 45:15.100]  Let's take a phone call.
[45:15.420 --> 45:16.200]  And good evening.
[45:16.300 --> 45:16.720]  You're on the air.
[45:17.000 --> 45:17.740]  Hey, great show.
[45:17.900 --> 45:18.140]  Thank you.
[45:18.980 --> 45:24.760]  I noticed the first thing to go when the First Amendment goes is a sense of humor.
[45:25.300 --> 45:25.700]  Yeah.
[45:26.880 --> 45:37.800]  I wanted to agree with what you said earlier about a person being persistent and watching when the police do grab someone, you know, and their rights.
[45:37.960 --> 45:41.960]  Because I have, and I'm sure many of us have, have stayed up there and watched.
[45:42.140 --> 45:48.680]  The first thing you get is the person who's being grabbed by the police or whatever, Lawrence Forthman, is a feeling of isolation.
[45:48.940 --> 45:52.380]  And what I mean is you're all alone if you catch my drift.
[45:52.580 --> 45:52.700]  Yeah.
[45:52.920 --> 46:00.000]  And the people who watch you, I've seen cops intimidate people who watch, you know, what's going on.
[46:00.040 --> 46:02.320]  They really want you to just keep going about your business.
[46:02.480 --> 46:04.100]  Don't even, don't even look.
[46:04.440 --> 46:04.560]  So.
[46:04.880 --> 46:10.080]  Many of the time I've stood by and watched police either arresting or harassing somebody and was told to move on.
[46:10.200 --> 46:13.860]  I just have stood there, you know, and sometimes I've even taken pictures.
[46:14.360 --> 46:17.680]  And fortunately, I have, haven't had anything really bad happen to me as a result of that.
[46:17.780 --> 46:23.580]  But I can certainly understand people not wanting to stick around in a situation like that, not wanting to get involved.
[46:23.720 --> 46:27.820]  And that's what makes it easy for stories like this to, to go unchallenged.
[46:27.940 --> 46:43.700]  And they won't touch someone like you said, NBC or some of those people who would pretty much do a fluff piece, going back to what you said earlier, of the, of someone who was, who had took a photograph, whatever, of a, you know, an interview reporter.
[46:44.220 --> 47:00.140]  If, I mean, the way they would treat, let's say someone from NBC or New York one, as opposed to Amy Goodman, you know, down there, that station, you know, Amy, they may attack, you know, but anyway, you, uh, great show and you guys take care.
[47:00.380 --> 47:00.500]  Okay.
[47:00.660 --> 47:01.160]  Thanks for the call.
[47:02.120 --> 47:03.880]  212-209-2900.
[47:04.140 --> 47:04.440]  Good evening.
[47:04.560 --> 47:04.940]  You're on the air.
[47:04.940 --> 47:05.800]  Hi.
[47:06.060 --> 47:06.440]  How you doing?
[47:07.100 --> 47:14.620]  Um, many, many years ago, an English teacher told, told us that, uh, if you really want truth, you have to read novels.
[47:15.500 --> 47:19.920]  And of course, somebody immediately piped up, well, how about the news reports?
[47:20.220 --> 47:27.860]  And he said, I'm glad you asked me because I was about to tell you, uh, news reports are opinions.
[47:28.180 --> 47:32.060]  They're, they engage opinion right in the beginning because what is news?
[47:32.740 --> 47:34.180]  How do you report it?
[47:34.480 --> 47:36.440]  Who reports it from what slant?
[47:36.940 --> 47:39.000]  And so on and so on and so on.
[47:39.180 --> 47:41.420]  Real truth isn't to be found in the news.
[47:41.420 --> 47:49.820]  Well, I guess some of it is, but, uh, uh, you're, you're the, the guy in Denver's difficulty is not hard to believe.
[47:50.660 --> 47:52.520]  It's just that it's hard to document.
[47:53.000 --> 47:53.100]  Yeah.
[47:53.360 --> 47:54.620]  I, I totally agree with that.
[47:54.980 --> 48:00.560]  And, uh, I mean, do you think we, you know, it being hard to document, should we have not covered the story at all?
[48:00.660 --> 48:01.040]  Should we have not?
[48:01.280 --> 48:01.460]  Oh, no.
[48:02.380 --> 48:03.720]  You're reporting the news.
[48:03.920 --> 48:06.040]  You report essentially opinion.
[48:07.480 --> 48:10.240]  What is news and how do you get, how did it get there?
[48:11.040 --> 48:11.880]  And you're right.
[48:11.940 --> 48:12.780]  We see it all the time.
[48:12.940 --> 48:13.760]  All the time.
[48:13.860 --> 48:15.540]  We see it all the time in the mass media.
[48:15.540 --> 48:27.240]  I remember, you know, when there were, uh, demonstrations against the Gulf War, how, uh, the news media without blinking their eyes would say that, uh, you know, a bunch of demonstrators, but there might've been a hundred thousand demonstrators in Washington,
[48:27.380 --> 48:27.660]  D.C.
[48:27.940 --> 48:29.380]  They'd give that a couple of seconds.
[48:29.380 --> 48:32.940]  And then for, for the next minute, they'd interview some patriotic Americans.
[48:32.940 --> 48:33.940]  And that was their word.
[48:34.020 --> 48:41.940]  They would say patriotic Americans who support the war and, and talk to the group of 10 people who were, who were protesting for it for, you know, much more time.
[48:42.080 --> 48:44.520]  And, you know, that obviously is an opinion.
[48:44.660 --> 48:45.420]  That is their opinion.
[48:45.560 --> 48:46.880]  That is something that, uh, right.
[48:47.240 --> 48:49.980]  And I would really like to know what's happening in Venezuela.
[48:50.760 --> 48:55.920]  Uh, we get reports of, of, uh, of anti-government actions.
[48:56.400 --> 48:58.680]  Actually, how many people are doing it?
[48:58.800 --> 49:04.080]  We, we can't find out anymore because Pacifica doesn't have the money to send people down there.
[49:04.220 --> 49:10.160]  If you remember 20 years ago, Pacifica would be reporting from the scene with people who really knew what was happening.
[49:10.500 --> 49:12.180]  And now we don't get any of that.
[49:12.180 --> 49:22.440]  It's, it seems an awful lot like what happened in Chile, um, 73, where, you know, the, the business leaders are supporting a strike.
[49:22.580 --> 49:23.720]  Where have you ever seen that?
[49:24.300 --> 49:26.180]  That seems to be taking a little bit longer though.
[49:26.480 --> 49:30.640]  And now Kissinger's investigating, uh, criminality.
[49:31.420 --> 49:33.840]  Well, I, I, I feel, I feel comfortable with that.
[49:33.900 --> 49:35.580]  I mean, he's so, he's so familiar with it.
[49:35.700 --> 49:38.180]  You know, what, what better person to have there?
[49:38.180 --> 49:39.400]  It takes one to know one.
[49:39.600 --> 49:39.800]  Exactly.
[49:40.020 --> 49:40.300]  Oh yeah.
[49:40.480 --> 49:42.520]  But who does it take to tell one?
[49:42.920 --> 49:43.100]  Yeah.
[49:43.540 --> 49:43.680]  Yeah.
[49:44.240 --> 49:44.940]  Thanks for the call.
[49:45.180 --> 49:45.400]  Okay.
[49:45.600 --> 49:45.880]  So long.
[49:46.440 --> 49:49.440]  And guess where there's been really, uh, extensive coverage of Venezuela?
[49:49.700 --> 49:50.640]  Not American networks.
[49:51.660 --> 49:52.340]  Do I have to say it?
[49:53.180 --> 49:59.160]  Oh, Canada does have good coverage, but, uh, no, BBC has, has great coverage.
[49:59.300 --> 50:07.660]  And they interviewed Noam Chomsky yesterday for 10 minutes in their main newscast talking about the war, you know, the war, uh, the anti-war effort in the United States.
[50:07.820 --> 50:10.560]  Do you realize American media has probably never interviewed him?
[50:10.740 --> 50:17.420]  And, and I guess everybody I know, he's probably the most famous person in the world that the American public doesn't know.
[50:17.800 --> 50:23.140]  You know, the people here, the bat, the vast majority, the people who watch network news don't know.
[50:23.660 --> 50:25.100]  And, uh, the rest of the world does.
[50:25.260 --> 50:26.620]  And people around here do.
[50:27.220 --> 50:30.540]  Makes you wonder just how separated you are from quote unquote reality.
[50:31.720 --> 50:32.200]  All right.
[50:32.260 --> 50:32.900]  Let's take another phone call.
[50:32.960 --> 50:33.280]  Good evening.
[50:33.480 --> 50:34.040]  You're on the air.
[50:34.300 --> 50:34.700]  Yeah.
[50:34.880 --> 50:37.920]  I'd like to mention something, but I want to mention about last week's show.
[50:38.260 --> 50:44.860]  Um, it reminds me, it reminds me of when you guys were harassed at the 2,600 meeting in Washington.
[50:45.060 --> 50:48.920]  That's actually very good rebel that you brought that up because yes, that's something I did want to focus on.
[50:49.260 --> 51:03.560]  Remember when the, uh, the, the, the people were, were rounded up at the Washington DC meeting and all their names were taken and it was, it was found to be done through the secret service, but they denied that until we got a reporter to get a security guard to say that on tape.
[51:03.800 --> 51:08.560]  In the end, nobody wanted to charge a secret service with a crime.
[51:08.680 --> 51:12.480]  Nobody wanted to follow through on the lawsuit because they were afraid and rightfully so.
[51:13.280 --> 51:22.460]  I remember going down there and they, somebody at the meeting said, you know, that somebody told them that it was, it had to do with the Patriot Act and the, you know, Homeland Security and stuff.
[51:22.800 --> 51:23.380]  Back then?
[51:24.340 --> 51:25.260]  Wait a minute.
[51:25.460 --> 51:26.880]  No, this happened in 1992.
[51:27.660 --> 51:28.040]  I know.
[51:28.360 --> 51:30.460]  There was no Patriot Act of Homeland Security back then.
[51:30.900 --> 51:31.360]  Neither was.
[51:31.500 --> 51:35.460]  The Patriot Act was enacted in 1989, I believe.
[51:35.740 --> 51:38.460]  You've been in the time travel machine a little too long there.
[51:38.600 --> 51:40.760]  No, no, this is not the case.
[51:41.820 --> 51:43.000]  You've got the names right.
[51:43.000 --> 51:44.860]  You just need to, like, get the dates right now.
[51:46.000 --> 52:00.260]  Okay, but, um, well, I could talk about that in another time, but I'd like to mention that you could get free directory assistance on payphones by dialing zero the area code in 555-1212 on Verizon payphones.
[52:00.440 --> 52:02.680]  I'm going to go outside right after the show and I'm going to do that.
[52:02.680 --> 52:04.360]  And if you're wrong, God help you.
[52:04.480 --> 52:06.180]  And I'm going to tell people about it next week.
[52:06.320 --> 52:09.740]  But, uh, since we're not talking about phone stuff that much this week, I'm going to bid you a good night.
[52:10.700 --> 52:12.180]  And let's go to another phone call.
[52:12.360 --> 52:12.840]  Good evening.
[52:12.960 --> 52:13.440]  You're on the air.
[52:14.100 --> 52:14.460]  Hi.
[52:14.800 --> 52:16.060]  Uh, it's Sando.
[52:16.480 --> 52:19.400]  It doesn't sound like me because I have laryngitis, but it's me.
[52:19.600 --> 52:20.280]  Oh, it's perfectly okay.
[52:20.280 --> 52:20.280]  Okay.
[52:20.980 --> 52:35.160]  Um, free speech radio news, which is on VAI at six o'clock, uh, in the evening had the burning bush story on Monday and it was a jury trial and there was a little bit more to it, but I couldn't get on last week to tell you this.
[52:35.260 --> 52:36.260]  I lived in Denver.
[52:36.520 --> 52:41.220]  I don't know if all of you were born yet in, uh, 67 to 68.
[52:41.840 --> 52:46.840]  My first husband, uh, I was there with him was working for the American friend service committee.
[52:47.060 --> 52:51.400]  So I listened very carefully to news about Denver and about a month ago.
[52:51.660 --> 52:54.860]  You can check with them because some of it's produced at VAI.
[52:55.160 --> 52:57.880]  There was a story about the Denver police.
[52:59.500 --> 53:20.560]  The, uh, whatever the name of the local branch is of the, uh, ACLU in Colorado, uh, discovered, I think the papers were leaked to them that the Denver police had a secret surveillance unit, um, akin to the old red squad that, uh, they were calling criminal.
[53:20.880 --> 53:30.100]  And on that list was the Denver American friend service committee as a criminal organization, a nun.
[53:31.160 --> 53:36.640]  So I would take, I don't know any, I heard this show last week.
[53:36.900 --> 53:43.000]  I think McGinnis, you know, people are often treated like they're crazy if they want to cover something up.
[53:43.240 --> 54:02.960]  I don't know how much of what he said, uh, was, it wasn't true, but it is a fact that the, uh, uh, American, uh, friend service committee was on, is on a criminal list and the, uh, ACLU is trying to get the Denver police to stop that kind of thing.
[54:03.180 --> 54:10.340]  But if you know the, or don't know the American friend service committee, it's an organization, it's part of the Quakers.
[54:10.620 --> 54:18.500]  Everyone who works for them is not necessarily a Quaker because my husband is and was a jew organizing for them.
[54:18.780 --> 54:31.420]  Um, they are involved in, uh, nonviolent protests, uh, and they're going after them in Denver for their peace vigils and work of that nature.
[54:31.560 --> 54:37.420]  They're also against, uh, abuse in prisons or, uh, or fighting that around the country.
[54:37.640 --> 54:39.200]  So that's all I have to say.
[54:39.400 --> 54:39.640]  Okay.
[54:39.780 --> 54:40.520]  Thanks for letting us know.
[54:40.940 --> 54:41.360]  Get well.
[54:41.780 --> 54:42.300]  Yes.
[54:43.420 --> 54:45.380]  Well, that kind of thing doesn't surprise me.
[54:45.440 --> 54:49.420]  Maybe I'm jaded, but, uh, you know, I've heard about that kind of thing so many times now.
[54:49.640 --> 54:56.420]  Um, it's almost the norm that groups like this are considered criminal by, uh, law enforcement, you know?
[54:57.400 --> 55:03.720]  And I guess there's people out there that don't believe it's really happening, but, uh, that's the kind of thing you can document because it was uncovered, obviously.
[55:04.820 --> 55:05.360]  Good evening.
[55:05.460 --> 55:05.800]  You're on the air.
[55:07.180 --> 55:07.540]  Hi.
[55:07.780 --> 55:08.140]  How you doing?
[55:08.860 --> 55:15.900]  I have, uh, I have, uh, I have, uh, I'm speculating on, um, on why Trent Lott made the statement he made.
[55:16.160 --> 55:17.140]  Well, because he's an idiot.
[55:17.280 --> 55:17.700]  That's why.
[55:17.820 --> 55:18.940]  I mean, that's why speculation.
[55:19.260 --> 55:19.740]  That's the main reason.
[55:20.880 --> 55:32.680]  Well, I think, well, you know, he has a long history of that, so it's not surprising, but I believe that his statement paints people like Robert Byrd in a bad light.
[55:32.680 --> 55:33.220]  Mm-hmm.
[55:33.840 --> 55:43.600]  And, uh, Robert Byrd has been fighting, uh, really since around, uh, uh, 1994 when the Republicans took power.
[55:44.060 --> 55:48.620]  He's been fighting a lot of stuff they've been doing, like passing laws that nobody's read.
[55:49.000 --> 55:52.580]  And this really started back in, like, 94 and upward.
[55:52.880 --> 55:55.660]  So Byrd's been the only one who's been fighting this.
[55:56.200 --> 56:04.180]  And, uh, by Trent Lott's racist statement, it kind of, like, spills over on Byrd, and now they have, like, something on him.
[56:04.300 --> 56:06.320]  So that's my, uh, that's my speculation.
[56:06.420 --> 56:07.700]  How did it spill over on him?
[56:08.800 --> 56:10.820]  Because Byrd has that kind of checkered past.
[56:11.120 --> 56:11.440]  Okay.
[56:11.700 --> 56:15.540]  You know, so if Byrd speaks up, uh, he can be splattered by this now.
[56:15.660 --> 56:17.940]  But has he not condemned that, that, uh, that past?
[56:18.540 --> 56:19.360]  I don't know.
[56:19.500 --> 56:20.040]  I don't really know.
[56:20.160 --> 56:20.480]  I don't know.
[56:20.540 --> 56:21.340]  I don't know Byrd has.
[56:21.440 --> 56:26.440]  But basically, I, I, I normally wouldn't be defending someone like Byrd.
[56:26.540 --> 56:30.540]  I mean, not because I, I just don't know, don't know that much about him.
[56:30.720 --> 56:37.460]  I just know that he is one of the few people who's actually been fighting what's been going on.
[56:37.560 --> 56:39.400]  And it's been really over a 10 year period.
[56:39.520 --> 56:40.740]  It's not just recently.
[56:40.920 --> 56:43.460]  He's been single handedly fighting a lot of stuff.
[56:43.520 --> 56:45.100]  I think he gave a very powerful speech.
[56:45.260 --> 56:47.360]  I haven't seen it in the United States Senate.
[56:47.440 --> 56:50.400]  He's been given several powerful speeches, but he's been shut down.
[56:50.500 --> 56:51.860]  I mean, we don't hear about him.
[56:52.000 --> 56:52.780]  Well, you hear about him here.
[56:52.940 --> 56:53.720]  I heard him on Robert Knight.
[56:53.940 --> 56:53.980]  Yeah.
[56:54.080 --> 56:58.100]  Well, they've been, they've been recently, they've been doing a lot of great stuff, but he's, he goes back like 10 years.
[56:58.400 --> 56:59.880]  I mean, with this fight.
[57:00.140 --> 57:00.300]  Right.
[57:00.400 --> 57:02.300]  So the thing is, you know, lots of people have things in their past.
[57:02.400 --> 57:07.260]  They're ashamed of even Strom Thurmond, uh, you know, declared that, uh, that was wrong when he stood for it.
[57:07.260 --> 57:13.240]  But the fact that people like Trent Lott haven't declared that and continue to embrace it, that's, uh, something you gotta, you know, point a big finger at.
[57:13.400 --> 57:13.560]  Yeah.
[57:13.620 --> 57:24.680]  Well, I think, unfortunately that today's, uh, today's politics and what's going on in today's, uh, you know, in America, America and America's world, uh, is making a lot of strange bedfellows.
[57:24.800 --> 57:26.020]  So I'm, yeah, that's true.
[57:26.280 --> 57:31.360]  I'm kind of like supporting Berg, but I think he's really on top of things and a lot of people don't know about it.
[57:32.060 --> 57:34.900]  The other thing is that it took the media so long to report this.
[57:34.940 --> 57:40.440]  It took him, I think, six days to report that, uh, you know, that statement was even made and they should have been all on top of something like that.
[57:40.680 --> 57:53.960]  Well, I, well, you know, I mean, it's, to me, it's really obvious that control of the media is so important that, uh, the people who are running the show are going to control the media, no matter what.
[57:54.080 --> 57:54.400]  That's right.
[57:54.620 --> 57:55.320]  And, and, you know.
[57:55.580 --> 57:58.440]  Well, they don't seem to control all of it, do they?
[57:59.000 --> 57:59.720]  No, they don't.
[57:59.780 --> 58:02.200]  This is one of the few, this is the only thing I listen to.
[58:02.320 --> 58:07.360]  I mean, uh, Well, you should listen to more, more things, but at least know what's, what you have problems with when you listen to it.
[58:07.480 --> 58:11.140]  Well, I, I try to read as many, like, uh, internet papers.
[58:11.400 --> 58:11.760]  Mm-hmm.
[58:12.460 --> 58:12.760]  Bye-bye.
[58:13.020 --> 58:13.780]  Okay, we're out of time.
[58:13.900 --> 58:14.960]  Thanks, uh, thanks for calling.
[58:15.860 --> 58:20.780]  Well, uh, interesting, uh, interesting comments, interesting show, interesting, uh, events.
[58:21.020 --> 58:22.180]  And I'm sure there'll be more.
[58:22.440 --> 58:26.420]  We'll be, um, following this case as much as we can, following all kinds of other cases.
[58:26.620 --> 58:29.260]  We welcome your mail, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:29.460 --> 58:35.820]  Snail mail is off the hook here of WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 1-0-0-0-5.
[58:36.760 --> 58:38.280]  We'll be back again next week.
[58:38.760 --> 58:39.280]  Talk to you then.
[58:59.220 --> 59:02.020]  One more time.
[59:32.780 --> 59:37.840]  WBAI invites you to its first annual holiday book fair at 120 Wall Street.
[59:38.580 --> 59:45.860]  For four days, beginning Saturday, December 14th at noon, sort through dozens of very discounted books.
[59:46.560 --> 59:47.100]  For more information, visit www.fema.org.