[00:00.840 --> 00:03.360]  Democrats simply give it away.
[00:03.640 --> 00:17.320]  Join WBAI for two exclusive screenings of Unprecedented, the award-winning documentary by Richard Ray Perez and Joan Seckler on Thursday, December 19th at 7.30 and 9.30 p.m.
[00:17.500 --> 00:22.380]  That's at the Walker Stage, 56 Walker Street in Manhattan, just below West Canal.
[00:22.820 --> 00:28.380]  Meet the filmmakers and hear a message from Greg Pallas to reserve your $10 seats.
[00:28.380 --> 00:32.460]  Call Shirley at 212-209-2834.
[00:32.600 --> 00:37.990]  That's 212-209-2834 for Unprecedented.
[00:51.760 --> 00:53.280]  7 o'clock on the nose.
[00:53.540 --> 00:55.300]  It's WBAI in New York.
[00:55.480 --> 00:57.920]  The program coming up right now is Off the Hook.
[01:14.280 --> 01:16.060]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:16.860 --> 01:18.620]  But if they could, they would.
[01:18.880 --> 01:21.480]  But the best is back to us.
[01:22.320 --> 01:24.060]  I hope that's understood.
[01:24.460 --> 01:25.140]  But the best is back to us.
[03:11.960 --> 03:13.520]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:13.620 --> 03:14.480]  The program is Off the Hook.
[03:14.860 --> 03:19.280]  Manuel Goldstein here with you, with the usual cast of assorted characters here in the studio.
[03:19.280 --> 03:23.000]  So, we have interesting news for you tonight.
[03:23.260 --> 03:23.920]  Some good.
[03:24.460 --> 03:25.200]  Some bad.
[03:26.580 --> 03:28.960]  And all of it, hopefully, interesting.
[03:31.880 --> 03:36.160]  I've got a very special guest who needs no introduction whatsoever.
[03:36.480 --> 03:41.280]  In fact, I'm sort of in awe of the fact that I was actually able to get this person's phone number.
[03:42.120 --> 03:50.800]  And I'm a little bit late today, so forgive the disorganized sound where I actually have to dial the person's phone number on the air.
[03:53.300 --> 03:58.520]  Fortunately, I've turned down the volume so you can't hear any of the noise.
[03:58.900 --> 03:59.920]  What are you waving at?
[04:00.400 --> 04:00.980]  I'm sorry.
[04:01.420 --> 04:02.160]  What's coming through?
[04:03.200 --> 04:05.120]  Oh, nobody can translate it anyway.
[04:07.640 --> 04:08.300]  Really, Jeff?
[04:08.420 --> 04:09.660]  Sometimes you think people have... Okay.
[04:11.360 --> 04:12.400]  The next voice you...
[04:12.400 --> 04:14.040]  This is not the person you were trying to reach.
[04:14.200 --> 04:18.600]  This is San Francisco's Rejection Hotline, brought to you by AskTheCollegeGuy.com.
[04:18.640 --> 04:21.440]  Because the person who gave you this number did not want you to have their real number.
[04:21.640 --> 04:23.620]  I know this sucks, but don't be too devastated.
[04:23.900 --> 04:25.880]  So why were you given the Rejection Hotline number?
[04:26.080 --> 04:27.520]  Maybe you're just not this person's type.
[04:27.880 --> 04:31.300]  Note, this could mean short, fat, ugly, dumb, annoying, arrogant, or just a general loser.
[04:31.600 --> 04:33.900]  Maybe you suffer from bad breath, body odor, or even both.
[04:34.160 --> 04:37.020]  Maybe you just give off that creepy, overbearing, psycho stalker vibe.
[04:37.300 --> 04:40.940]  Maybe the idea of going out with you just seems as appealing as playing leapfrog with unicorns.
[04:40.940 --> 04:41.220]  Okay.
[04:41.460 --> 04:43.180]  Regardless of the reason, please take the hint.
[04:43.440 --> 04:45.440]  Accept the fact that you rejected, and then get over it.
[04:45.600 --> 04:48.320]  And please, do your best to forget about the person who gave you this number.
[04:48.440 --> 04:50.540]  Because trust us, they've already forgotten about you.
[04:50.880 --> 04:52.940]  In addition to AskTheCollegeGuy.com...
[04:52.940 --> 04:53.820]  This can't be right.
[04:53.820 --> 04:56.500]  ...on my college advice column, the Rejection Hotline is also brought to you by Beer.
[04:56.700 --> 04:58.920]  Helping ugly people have sex since 1827.
[04:59.420 --> 05:05.340]  For sponsor information and Rejection Hotline numbers in other cities, please visit www.rejectionhotline.com.
[05:10.530 --> 05:12.210]  And if you're still listening, don't worry.
[05:12.370 --> 05:13.170]  It could be much worse.
[05:13.370 --> 05:17.030]  I could have passed you on to some automated voicemail lady to reinforce the fact that you've been rejected.
[05:17.290 --> 05:18.150]  Thank you for calling.
[05:18.510 --> 05:18.870]  Goodbye.
[05:18.870 --> 05:18.950]  Goodbye.
[05:19.250 --> 05:19.610]  Oh.
[05:20.810 --> 05:21.930]  Well, that was nasty.
[05:23.570 --> 05:25.170]  That's the number that they gave me.
[05:26.090 --> 05:26.430]  Who?
[05:27.230 --> 05:28.390]  I'm not going to say now.
[05:28.410 --> 05:29.190]  I'm too embarrassed.
[05:29.630 --> 05:30.570]  I can't believe...
[05:31.410 --> 05:32.450]  This was such a good...
[05:32.450 --> 05:34.390]  I could not believe that I actually got this person's...
[05:34.390 --> 05:37.350]  Now I know I didn't actually get the person's phone number.
[05:37.430 --> 05:38.010]  All right, fine.
[05:38.630 --> 05:39.750]  We don't have to talk about that.
[05:39.810 --> 05:40.630]  We'll talk about something else.
[05:41.090 --> 05:41.850]  How about victory?
[05:42.050 --> 05:43.670]  Mike, we had a victory this week, didn't we?
[05:43.990 --> 05:44.970]  Well, someone did.
[05:45.510 --> 05:46.130]  Elcomsoft did.
[05:46.310 --> 05:48.350]  Well, yeah, I consider it a victory for us as well.
[05:48.350 --> 06:01.450]  Elcomsoft is, of course, the company that employs Dmitry Sklerov, the Russian programmer, the first person to be arrested under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the DMCA.
[06:01.810 --> 06:03.290]  Remember, folks, I was not arrested.
[06:03.470 --> 06:04.690]  It was a civil trial.
[06:04.890 --> 06:06.110]  His was a criminal trial.
[06:06.310 --> 06:10.490]  We're working on the criminal charges for you, but he already had them.
[06:10.490 --> 06:16.510]  And they dropped the charges against him personally in favor of charges against the company.
[06:16.930 --> 06:24.810]  And just today, yesterday, very recently, anyhow, those charges were acquitted by a jury.
[06:24.970 --> 06:25.370]  A jury.
[06:25.450 --> 06:28.190]  Now, I think that's the significant thing, that this was a jury trial.
[06:28.190 --> 06:38.730]  I've always wanted to have something like this, something involving either hackers or just stupid legislation that pretty much keeps people from innovating and playing with technology.
[06:38.730 --> 06:40.250]  I wanted that to go to a jury.
[06:40.590 --> 06:41.590]  Everyone's always afraid.
[06:41.730 --> 06:43.690]  They assume the American people are too stupid to get it.
[06:43.790 --> 06:48.090]  And they always either settle or allow a judge to make a decision.
[06:48.810 --> 06:52.310]  I'm glad this finally went to a jury, and the jury got it.
[06:52.350 --> 06:54.990]  And they got it fast, too, because when did it go to the jury?
[06:55.150 --> 06:55.410]  Monday?
[06:55.770 --> 06:57.490]  And yesterday is when this happened.
[06:57.690 --> 06:58.410]  It was pretty quick.
[06:58.510 --> 06:59.130]  It was quick.
[06:59.290 --> 07:00.170]  It was really quick.
[07:01.050 --> 07:07.830]  Now, Serif, you have some perspective on this as far as it not being quite as good as maybe it could have been.
[07:08.150 --> 07:09.550]  Well, yeah, it was a little funny.
[07:10.890 --> 07:11.550]  Excuse me.
[07:13.350 --> 07:18.730]  The judge told the jury to look at this in a slightly different way than at least I expected.
[07:20.030 --> 07:23.970]  I mean, I guess it was pretty clear that Alcomsoft was guilty under the DMCA.
[07:23.970 --> 07:31.110]  They produced a piece of software that was capable of circumventing some electronic copyright protection measures.
[07:31.690 --> 07:34.910]  And I don't think anybody had any question as to whether they did that or not.
[07:35.010 --> 07:37.650]  So I thought they were pretty much just going to be guilty.
[07:37.850 --> 07:51.930]  But what the judge asked the jury to look at was whether Sklyarov and Alcomsoft actually went out seeking to violate the DMCA, whether they knew about the law, and whether they then wrote and distributed the software with the specific intent of violating that law.
[07:52.570 --> 07:56.570]  Yeah, it did seem to be like they gave it a little bit more leeway there.
[07:57.590 --> 07:59.410]  I mean, I'm not sure exactly how they did that.
[07:59.610 --> 08:07.590]  They say to the jury, only convict if you find that they intended to violate this law, not whether or not they actually violated this law.
[08:08.110 --> 08:15.370]  Now, of course, there being from Russia, does it even pertain to them that they violate a law in a different country?
[08:15.610 --> 08:18.930]  I mean, the whole thing seems pretty absurd on that alone.
[08:19.190 --> 08:20.910]  Yeah, I was wondering about that today.
[08:20.910 --> 08:34.670]  And I guess really what happened there is just that the company would rather go on trial in a country that, you know, in basically a foreign country to them, rather than having one of their programmers potentially be in prison for a very long time.
[08:35.690 --> 08:41.050]  But the whole concept of these foreign companies being tried in California courts is quite questionable.
[08:41.310 --> 08:59.930]  There's another case that's probably going to be coming to California soon, where Charmin Networks, which is the creator of the Khazab peer-to-peer software, is potentially going to be brought into a California courtroom, despite the fact that they're incorporated in one of these Pacific Island tax havens somewhere.
[09:01.110 --> 09:09.190]  They're going to be dragged into California and to Los Angeles because they apparently have enough of a presence in California that they can be tried there.
[09:09.850 --> 09:10.690]  That's going to be interesting.
[09:10.870 --> 09:14.450]  Now, has something been set up specifically for that, or is that just sometime in the future?
[09:15.570 --> 09:20.510]  Well, I think they started looking at this in November, and I haven't really heard much more about it, but I think that we will soon.
[09:22.050 --> 09:28.810]  Well, I'm looking for the actual story here about what happened in the courtroom.
[09:30.130 --> 09:31.550]  And is this it over here?
[09:32.590 --> 09:33.190]  Yes.
[09:33.290 --> 09:43.190]  A San Jose, California jury on Tuesday rejected arguments that a Russian company committed a crime by issuing code-busting computer software, serving up a high-profile defeat.
[09:43.390 --> 09:50.490]  That's right, a high-profile defeat for prosecutors who hope to use a new federal law to charge such actions as a crime.
[09:50.690 --> 10:06.430]  The eight-man, four-woman jury found Moscow's Elkomsof Company Limited not guilty of five counts of violating the criminal provisions of the Federal Digital Millennium Copyright Act for issuing a program that could be used to circumvent security protections on Adobe System,
[10:06.550 --> 10:07.690]  Inc.'s e-book reader.
[10:08.290 --> 10:14.450]  Elkomsof was the first defendant to face a criminal trial under the law passed by Congress in 1998.
[10:15.330 --> 10:17.790]  Minutes after their verdict was read in U.S.
[10:18.090 --> 10:27.010]  District Court, jurors said they didn't buy the government's contention that Elkomsof knowingly flouted the law, which is necessary to prove criminal intent under the DMCA.
[10:27.190 --> 10:33.650]  Okay, so I guess that might explain a little better that the DMCA itself says that you have to have criminal intent to violate it.
[10:34.150 --> 10:40.330]  This is... most laws, whether you know about them or not, if you violate them, you get punished, right?
[10:40.330 --> 10:45.610]  So if I claim not to know that murder is illegal and I were to go out and murder someone, they wouldn't care.
[10:45.930 --> 10:48.330]  But some of the more complicated laws...
[10:48.330 --> 10:48.730]  But who wouldn't care?
[10:49.970 --> 10:52.510]  They wouldn't care that I claim not to know it was illegal.
[10:52.750 --> 10:54.630]  Oh, but they would care that you murdered somebody.
[10:54.730 --> 10:54.870]  Yes.
[10:54.870 --> 10:56.190]  I wasn't sure what you meant, but I wouldn't care.
[10:56.230 --> 10:56.590]  I'm sorry, that was my point.
[10:56.670 --> 10:56.890]  All right.
[10:57.170 --> 10:57.470]  Sorry.
[10:57.930 --> 11:04.750]  But some of the more complicated laws, some of the tax laws and DMCA and laws like that, you have to... like, no one really understands them.
[11:04.750 --> 11:18.170]  So you have to... the prosecution has to show that the violation of the law was willful, which the jury, I guess, in this case found that it wasn't, which makes sense, given that they were in Russia at the time.
[11:18.570 --> 11:20.950]  Yeah, and probably not even aware of this law.
[11:21.090 --> 11:30.650]  Now, I would like to hear more about what they thought of the law itself, but I guess the jury really isn't given that kind of responsibility to critique the law.
[11:30.650 --> 11:36.310]  They just have to determine if the person or company violated that law.
[11:36.410 --> 11:39.470]  In this particular case, whether they knowingly violated the law.
[11:41.490 --> 11:48.890]  During the trial, lawyers revealed Elcomsoft had pulled its software from the market a mere five days after it was notified that the product could violate U.S.
[11:49.050 --> 11:49.290]  law.
[11:49.690 --> 11:52.630]  The software had sold... how many copies, folks?
[11:53.170 --> 11:53.870]  Anyone want to guess?
[11:54.090 --> 11:54.430]  Zero.
[11:54.890 --> 11:55.370]  Zero.
[11:55.570 --> 11:56.610]  That's a good guess, but no.
[11:56.790 --> 11:57.690]  Five copies?
[11:58.230 --> 11:59.590]  Less than a thousand, definitely.
[11:59.590 --> 12:00.390]  Less than a thousand.
[12:00.630 --> 12:01.690]  Well, five is less than a thousand.
[12:01.890 --> 12:02.310]  Well, yeah.
[12:03.010 --> 12:05.770]  That's a 995 buffer zone you've given yourself.
[12:05.870 --> 12:10.270]  Well, yeah, but I figured you wouldn't ask unless it was some ridiculously low number like five.
[12:10.270 --> 12:11.450]  Or ridiculously high number.
[12:11.710 --> 12:11.950]  Oh.
[12:12.050 --> 12:12.890]  I'll go a thousand and one.
[12:12.910 --> 12:13.910]  Yeah, did you ever think about that?
[12:14.010 --> 12:14.130]  What?
[12:14.290 --> 12:15.270]  I'll go a thousand and one.
[12:15.350 --> 12:17.330]  Well, you're the next contestant, because the price is right.
[12:17.570 --> 12:17.570]  That's strange.
[12:17.750 --> 12:18.510]  A thousand and one.
[12:18.650 --> 12:19.370]  He's trying to outbid me.
[12:19.450 --> 12:20.410]  You said zero already.
[12:20.510 --> 12:22.730]  I even want to say also it's at 20,000.
[12:23.410 --> 12:24.050]  20,000?
[12:24.130 --> 12:24.610]  Yeah, just to be...
[12:24.610 --> 12:25.790]  All right, Jim, you want to give it one more try?
[12:26.010 --> 12:27.930]  No, I'll stick with under a thousand.
[12:28.310 --> 12:29.190]  Well, no, you can't.
[12:29.270 --> 12:29.890]  You have to give a number.
[12:30.230 --> 12:30.590]  Five.
[12:30.950 --> 12:31.310]  Five.
[12:31.610 --> 12:32.330]  And serif.
[12:32.450 --> 12:32.770]  23.
[12:33.710 --> 12:34.650]  Did you read the article?
[12:35.350 --> 12:36.170]  Are you serious?
[12:36.170 --> 12:37.150]  He doesn't count.
[12:37.610 --> 12:38.670]  No, no, well, it's 25.
[12:39.450 --> 12:39.690]  Oh.
[12:39.850 --> 12:41.690]  All right, so they sold 25 copies of this.
[12:41.890 --> 12:43.730]  At least one of which was to Adobe.
[12:43.950 --> 12:45.470]  The company had made a few thousand dollars.
[12:45.590 --> 12:48.110]  Now, wow, that's pretty good for 25 copies to make a few thousand dollars.
[12:48.150 --> 12:53.830]  If you have a copy and would like to show it to us, the 2600 meetings are the first Friday of every month in the City Coral Building.
[12:54.530 --> 12:55.970]  I've got a quiz question for everybody.
[12:55.970 --> 12:57.430]  It's called Citigroup now, too, by the way.
[12:57.850 --> 12:59.130]  I'm an old-fashioned type.
[12:59.230 --> 13:01.030]  Yeah, and the next meeting is January 3rd.
[13:01.170 --> 13:01.470]  Thank you.
[13:01.870 --> 13:03.290]  No, yes, January 3rd.
[13:03.730 --> 13:04.590]  Here's a quiz question.
[13:04.690 --> 13:04.810]  Yes.
[13:05.190 --> 13:19.410]  Adobe hired two independent firms to scour the internet looking for e-books that had been cracked with the Adobe, or rather the advanced e-book processor to prove that it was being used for some type of illegal infringement.
[13:19.770 --> 13:20.850]  And here's the quiz question.
[13:20.950 --> 13:23.730]  How many cracked e-books did they find on the internet?
[13:23.730 --> 13:24.510]  Ooh, I know, I know.
[13:24.670 --> 13:25.830]  Why are you raising hands?
[13:25.950 --> 13:26.810]  Yeah, go ahead.
[13:26.810 --> 13:27.490]  You have to say something.
[13:28.290 --> 13:29.450]  The answer is zero.
[13:29.690 --> 13:30.010]  That's right.
[13:30.190 --> 13:30.390]  Zero.
[13:30.770 --> 13:31.770]  Well, I could have guessed that.
[13:31.850 --> 13:31.990]  Yeah.
[13:32.290 --> 13:33.150]  I just chose not to.
[13:33.850 --> 13:37.770]  The verdict seemed to point to a big question for prosecutors who pursue such cases.
[13:37.930 --> 13:48.390]  The question is, should they wait for damages to mount against a victim before pursuing a criminal copyright case, or should they risk alienating juries by pursuing cases where damages may appear minimal?
[13:48.390 --> 13:59.150]  While supporters and opponents of the DMCA agree that the Elkhom soft verdict won't be the death of criminal copyright prosecutions, they said prosecutors and victim companies face a real conundrum.
[13:59.430 --> 14:04.430]  It's a catch-22, said Evan Cox, a partner with Washington, D.C.-based Covington and Burling.
[14:04.590 --> 14:09.190]  Do you act quickly before you run up losses, or do you let them run up so the case is strong?
[14:09.690 --> 14:13.970]  If you are a copyright owner, you usually want the authorities to take quick action to minimize the losses.
[14:14.230 --> 14:20.110]  You stop the losses in this case, but you don't wind up with a conviction that deters people in future cases.
[14:20.110 --> 14:21.850]  So I've got a real problem with that last sentence.
[14:22.270 --> 14:25.430]  I don't know what kind of losses we're talking about in the first place.
[14:25.430 --> 14:28.930]  Somebody figures out how to use an e-book in a particular way.
[14:29.570 --> 14:31.590]  Now, what about fair use?
[14:33.290 --> 14:45.270]  In fair use, what happens is that, let's say you can copy a DVD, let's say some new technology comes out and you can copy it without making some new device that helps you copy it.
[14:45.990 --> 14:47.250]  the copyrighted program.
[14:47.450 --> 14:49.630]  What if you're copying it for fair use?
[14:50.010 --> 14:52.990]  Can you still be prosecuted for making that technology?
[14:53.230 --> 14:55.650]  Well, these are the questions that we've been asking.
[14:55.870 --> 15:01.170]  And yeah, it's a very definite conflict with the concept of fair use.
[15:01.290 --> 15:06.470]  And fair use seems to be the one losing in most cases, specifically in our case.
[15:07.210 --> 15:13.970]  Wasn't part of the use of that software so that a blind person could actually listen to the book that they had purchased?
[15:13.970 --> 15:16.490]  Yeah, there are all kinds of legitimate uses for things.
[15:16.590 --> 15:18.710]  And there's all kinds of illegitimate uses for anything.
[15:19.450 --> 15:32.330]  What this was an attempt to do, and still is, because the DMCA hasn't gone anywhere, is to give copyright holders total control over how their works are viewed and by whom and things like that.
[15:32.810 --> 15:35.310]  So that threat is still very much there.
[15:35.830 --> 15:36.690]  Now, the U.S.
[15:36.950 --> 15:42.730]  Attorney's Office and DMCA supporters, all three of them, attempted to put a positive spin on Tuesday's verdict.
[15:42.950 --> 15:43.630]  Okay, ready for this?
[15:44.430 --> 15:49.010]  When you are bringing good cases under new statutes, sometimes you are going to lose.
[15:49.170 --> 15:51.870]  And that's what happened here, said Northern District U.S.
[15:51.950 --> 15:52.910]  Attorney Kevin Ryan.
[15:53.230 --> 15:54.770]  We accept the jury's verdict.
[15:55.050 --> 16:03.430]  While disappointed, we are also pleased that the judge upheld the constitutionality of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the jurisdiction of the United States to bring these cases.
[16:04.370 --> 16:12.090]  I'm not sure when he spoke on the constitutionality of the DMCA, but I guess having the trial in the first place speaks something to that.
[16:12.870 --> 16:16.350]  Ryan's office pursued a high-profile strategy against Elcomsoft.
[16:16.770 --> 16:25.690]  Silicon Valley seemed a natural venue for the first case under the tech-oriented law, and federal prosecutors touted their use of the newly minted act.
[16:25.890 --> 16:27.270]  It's not so newly minted anymore.
[16:27.290 --> 16:28.990]  It's five years old now, isn't it?
[16:29.750 --> 16:36.970]  At a Las Vegas software convention, he mentioned federal agents arrested the Russian programmer who developed the Elcomsoft program.
[16:37.630 --> 16:39.310]  Las Vegas software convention?
[16:40.250 --> 16:40.850]  Okay.
[16:41.150 --> 16:50.650]  But he became somewhat of a cause celeb, sparking national press coverage and outrage from the technology industry's vocal advocates of electronic freedom.
[16:50.790 --> 16:51.310]  That would be us.
[16:51.970 --> 16:58.690]  Charges against Dimitri were to be dropped in exchange for his cooperation in the case against the company.
[16:59.090 --> 17:01.950]  I don't think they mentioned anywhere here where Dimitri was held in prison.
[17:01.990 --> 17:02.990]  How long was he held in prison for?
[17:03.690 --> 17:04.490]  Almost half a year.
[17:04.750 --> 17:05.870]  Was he held in prison the whole time?
[17:06.050 --> 17:09.590]  No, he was arrested in the summer.
[17:10.050 --> 17:17.870]  He was in the country through December, but he was only in prison less than a month.
[17:17.870 --> 17:18.810]  I'm not sure exactly.
[17:19.210 --> 17:19.990]  Was it less than a month?
[17:20.190 --> 17:20.350]  Yeah.
[17:20.450 --> 17:20.570]  Okay.
[17:20.610 --> 17:22.030]  And he was transferred a couple of times, too.
[17:22.030 --> 17:32.830]  He was shipped from Las Vegas to San Jose where the proceedings took place by some complicated routing algorithm that the Bureau of Prisons uses.
[17:33.050 --> 17:33.270]  Uh-huh.
[17:35.670 --> 17:48.970]  Lawrence Polgram, a partner with Palo Alto, California-based Fenwick & West who represented Napster in its celebrated copyright infringement trial, said he believes the verdict shows juries are well-equipped to discern between a threat to a copyright and a criminal act.
[17:49.370 --> 17:52.830]  It's not as simple as saying a technology can be used to make unlawful copies, he said.
[17:53.210 --> 17:55.570]  Juries care about the defendant's state of mind.
[17:56.190 --> 18:04.250]  Joseph Burton, the Dwayne Morris partner who represented Elkomsoff, said the case hinged on the question of whether Elkomsoff acted with willful disregard of U.S.
[18:04.350 --> 18:04.990]  copyright law.
[18:05.170 --> 18:10.190]  The evidence, in my view, Burton said, was not sufficient enough to establish intent.
[18:11.210 --> 18:14.330]  And this story came to us from The Recorder.
[18:16.330 --> 18:17.290]  Interesting case.
[18:17.290 --> 18:28.210]  And, you know, a bit of good news, but it's sort of unsettling, too, because things haven't really changed and it could happen all over again until the DMCA is struck down as law.
[18:28.990 --> 18:30.890]  We're going to continue to face these threats.
[18:33.010 --> 18:35.770]  Okay, any other news from people?
[18:35.850 --> 18:36.570]  Yes, Jim, what do you have?
[18:36.670 --> 18:40.570]  I actually have some humorous fluff news that we'd be interested in.
[18:40.870 --> 18:42.070]  I discovered...
[18:42.070 --> 18:43.190]  I don't know if I mentioned this last week.
[18:43.230 --> 18:43.730]  I don't think so.
[18:43.810 --> 18:46.990]  I discovered where the government got the Homeland Security alert colors.
[18:47.430 --> 18:48.590]  Where they got the colors?
[18:48.770 --> 18:49.450]  You got it.
[18:49.790 --> 18:51.490]  I didn't know they had to get them anywhere.
[18:52.890 --> 18:53.710]  All right, fine.
[18:53.730 --> 18:54.650]  Where'd they get the colors from?
[18:54.750 --> 18:56.590]  Well, let me tell you the story of how I discovered this.
[18:56.750 --> 19:08.590]  My sister went to Australia and took a lot of photographs, came back, and she's showing them off, and there's a shot of her at an Australian beach, and it's the UV factor alert.
[19:09.550 --> 19:09.950]  Really?
[19:10.290 --> 19:12.910]  They match exactly from highest to lowest.
[19:13.110 --> 19:13.270]  Uh-huh.
[19:13.610 --> 19:16.370]  Well, I would bet that color scheme matches a lot of things.
[19:16.650 --> 19:16.910]  Perhaps.
[19:17.130 --> 19:19.550]  I wouldn't be surprised, but we're still at yellow, right?
[19:19.650 --> 19:20.250]  It hasn't changed?
[19:20.370 --> 19:21.070]  We're not orange anymore?
[19:21.530 --> 19:22.130]  Are we yellow?
[19:22.370 --> 19:22.930]  I think yellow.
[19:23.010 --> 19:24.190]  Didn't anybody check before they came in here?
[19:24.330 --> 19:24.930]  I'm feeling yellow.
[19:25.330 --> 19:26.070]  Well, okay.
[19:26.690 --> 19:28.210]  I thought it was going to red and green.
[19:29.090 --> 19:29.890]  No, it can't.
[19:30.010 --> 19:31.330]  It has to go one way or another.
[19:31.430 --> 19:33.810]  Those are the opposite ends of the extreme there.
[19:34.690 --> 19:35.290]  Yes?
[19:35.590 --> 19:39.770]  There was also some new case under the DMCA about a...
[19:39.770 --> 19:49.510]  I don't remember the specifics, but some oil company suing a group of people, like a group that does parodies, and they're called the Yesmen.
[19:49.730 --> 19:53.050]  They made a parody of the oil company's website or something.
[19:53.250 --> 19:54.090]  This is Dow.
[19:54.270 --> 19:54.990]  Dow Chemical.
[19:55.150 --> 19:55.410]  Dow Chemical.
[19:55.430 --> 19:56.230]  Dow Chemical, eh?
[19:56.530 --> 20:03.570]  And their host, the hosting service for the Yesmen, they were...
[20:04.470 --> 20:07.050]  provided with a notice for, I think, a lawsuit or something.
[20:07.250 --> 20:08.630]  Well, to take off the...
[20:08.630 --> 20:11.130]  to take off the website from the servers.
[20:11.470 --> 20:15.330]  It was delivered by Dow Chemical to the hosting company.
[20:15.430 --> 20:20.990]  The hosting company refused, stating that they have no linkage to the people that...
[20:20.990 --> 20:22.330]  they do not...
[20:22.330 --> 20:24.570]  the content is completely independent of the hosting.
[20:25.270 --> 20:26.850]  And so, we're going to see how that develops.
[20:27.230 --> 20:27.330]  Okay.
[20:27.490 --> 20:30.730]  We'll follow that case in the next few weeks, I guess.
[20:32.410 --> 20:33.050]  Let's see.
[20:33.470 --> 20:36.390]  We have some other bits of news.
[20:38.950 --> 20:42.390]  Oh, first of all, the Chaos Communications Congress is taking place.
[20:42.590 --> 20:43.990]  And Jeff, you're going to that, I understand.
[20:44.210 --> 20:44.370]  Yes.
[20:44.370 --> 20:45.430]  I'm going to that, too, I understand.
[20:46.050 --> 20:47.170]  You're leaving before we are.
[20:47.550 --> 20:47.670]  Yeah.
[20:47.870 --> 20:52.750]  Well, actually, next week, this is going to be interesting because the next few weeks, the show is not going to be...
[20:52.750 --> 20:53.590]  Well, the show will be here.
[20:53.650 --> 20:54.370]  I just won't be here.
[20:55.290 --> 21:06.810]  Next week, if all goes according to plan, I'll be over in Amsterdam on the way to the Chaos Communications Congress, which always, every year, is December 27th, 28th, and 29th.
[21:06.870 --> 21:08.110]  It's always those dates.
[21:08.510 --> 21:14.930]  So, this time, it happens to fall on a weekend where the 27th is a Friday, the 28th is a Saturday, and the 29th, I believe, is a Sunday.
[21:15.830 --> 21:19.370]  And so, it's usually like in the middle of the week, but this time, it's right on the weekend.
[21:19.890 --> 21:27.630]  So, for those of you who still are thinking of doing a last-minute travel plan to get over there, it's at cccc.de.
[21:27.670 --> 21:28.570]  That's their webpage.
[21:29.750 --> 21:33.270]  And there's conference information in English over there as well.
[21:33.390 --> 21:34.770]  And you can see what they have in store.
[21:34.890 --> 21:39.850]  But mostly, it's just a great excuse to get away and kind of relax.
[21:40.310 --> 21:41.610]  Have you ever been to Berlin?
[21:42.130 --> 21:43.190]  No, I haven't been to Berlin.
[21:43.370 --> 21:44.190]  It's a great city.
[21:44.190 --> 21:48.050]  But we will also be stopping over in Amsterdam on our way.
[21:48.130 --> 21:49.250]  I'll be traveling with Bernie S.
[21:49.550 --> 21:50.010]  Oh, really?
[21:50.190 --> 21:51.570]  Well, that's always fun when you're on an airplane.
[21:54.570 --> 22:00.510]  So, now, are you going to be actually getting off the plane in Amsterdam or just kind of like staying on the ground for a few minutes?
[22:00.510 --> 22:01.970]  We've got a two-and-a-half-hour stopover.
[22:02.050 --> 22:02.690]  I'm sure we'll get off.
[22:02.690 --> 22:08.210]  Well, Skipal Airport is a very nice place to wander around and take in the sights inside there.
[22:08.350 --> 22:12.250]  But it's too bad you can't actually go to the city, which is a few miles away from there.
[22:12.330 --> 22:12.450]  Yeah, yeah.
[22:12.530 --> 22:13.250]  I don't know if we'll...
[22:14.170 --> 22:14.730]  We'll see.
[22:14.830 --> 22:16.810]  It would be a quick trip if you did.
[22:17.510 --> 22:19.570]  But again, the information is at ccc.de.
[22:19.670 --> 22:25.730]  Now, after that, I'll be away for the next two weeks over there, next two Wednesdays, anyway.
[22:26.230 --> 22:28.890]  I'll be back for the 2600 meeting the following Friday.
[22:28.890 --> 22:35.550]  But then, almost immediately after that, is the cross-country Kevin Mitnick Freedom Tour.
[22:35.830 --> 22:43.550]  What that is, is basically, Kevin, as you might know, is having his supervised release end, finally.
[22:43.550 --> 22:49.390]  Yes, we're seeing the end of the tunnel here on January 20th, I believe, out in California.
[22:50.070 --> 22:54.850]  Now, this also goes along with the question many people have been asking us over the past year or so.
[22:55.090 --> 22:57.550]  They were asking us when the video was coming out of Freedom Downtime.
[22:57.690 --> 23:02.370]  That came out, and as soon as it came out, literally to the minute, people started asking when the DVD was coming out.
[23:02.570 --> 23:12.610]  Well, folks, the DVD is coming out after we shoot additional footage of Kevin's freedom celebrations, I guess, and what exactly happens to the internet as soon as he gets on it.
[23:13.550 --> 23:18.090]  So, we'll have all kinds of things, but we're going to do a cross-country thing again.
[23:18.570 --> 23:21.870]  So, that's going to take a few weeks, probably the whole month of January.
[23:21.870 --> 23:27.870]  So, I'll be communicating with the program, whoever happens to be here, from wherever I am at the moment.
[23:28.430 --> 23:31.890]  So, I guess this is the last show I'll be in the studio for a while.
[23:32.150 --> 23:33.350]  But we'll be here...
[23:33.350 --> 23:35.950]  We should be here each week afterwards, regardless.
[23:37.910 --> 23:38.730]  What else?
[23:39.070 --> 23:42.210]  That's what we're going to be doing in the next few weeks.
[23:42.530 --> 23:45.230]  Anyone else have any interesting plans or things to do?
[23:45.470 --> 23:46.510]  Okay, nobody does.
[23:48.690 --> 23:54.810]  We've gotten a lot more mail on the whole Mike McGinnis situation, and we'll wait some of it.
[23:55.570 --> 23:57.670]  But we're not going to focus a whole lot of time on this.
[23:57.750 --> 24:04.090]  That being the show we did two weeks ago, where a guy in Denver claimed to be held by the Secret Service.
[24:04.090 --> 24:06.830]  We're taking pictures of the Vice President's hotel.
[24:07.650 --> 24:10.530]  We've since determined that the Vice President was not actually there at that time.
[24:10.530 --> 24:15.510]  Actually, you know, we have not determined that because we don't know for sure if the Vice President was there or not.
[24:15.630 --> 24:17.190]  We never know where the Vice President was.
[24:17.950 --> 24:19.690]  And I can prove that.
[24:19.770 --> 24:20.650]  I'll prove it right now, in fact.
[24:20.890 --> 24:25.490]  Actually, you know, I think all I'm going to prove is that the White House blocks our phone number.
[24:27.870 --> 24:29.730]  Let's see if that's still the case.
[24:31.330 --> 24:35.330]  Put in a little magic code here and see if it actually rings.
[24:36.610 --> 24:37.350]  It is ringing.
[24:54.630 --> 24:57.050]  It seems strange that they wouldn't be answering their phone, doesn't it?
[24:58.290 --> 24:59.250]  Maybe they went home.
[25:01.050 --> 25:02.010]  Maybe they're on strike.
[25:02.450 --> 25:03.010]  Oh, look at that.
[25:03.070 --> 25:03.690]  It's going somewhere else.
[25:06.090 --> 25:06.730]  White House?
[25:07.190 --> 25:07.730]  Yes, hi.
[25:07.790 --> 25:11.470]  I'm trying to find out the location of Vice President Cheney two weeks ago Tuesday.
[25:11.730 --> 25:12.610]  Is there a way I could do that?
[25:12.850 --> 25:14.350]  You'll have to call back tomorrow, sir.
[25:14.530 --> 25:14.970]  What number?
[25:15.390 --> 25:16.250]  The same number.
[25:16.370 --> 25:18.330]  Same number and someone can answer that question then?
[25:18.470 --> 25:20.270]  I don't know, but you can certainly try.
[25:20.590 --> 25:21.590]  Okay, between what hours?
[25:21.790 --> 25:23.270]  Nine and five Eastern Time.
[25:23.650 --> 25:24.410]  Okay, thank you.
[25:24.410 --> 25:24.930]  Thank you so much.
[25:25.010 --> 25:25.410]  You're welcome.
[25:25.610 --> 25:25.810]  Bye-bye.
[25:26.690 --> 25:28.550]  Oops, didn't mean to hang up on her like that.
[25:29.050 --> 25:32.470]  Okay, who wants to volunteer to call the White House tomorrow and find out where Cheney was two weeks ago?
[25:32.530 --> 25:34.890]  I've been playing a phone tag with them for a week trying to find out.
[25:35.050 --> 25:35.690]  And what did they say to you?
[25:36.190 --> 25:36.970]  Call back at night?
[25:38.230 --> 25:41.390]  No, they called me back and I was out and I called them back and left another message.
[25:41.570 --> 25:42.310]  The White House called you?
[25:42.470 --> 25:42.670]  Yeah.
[25:42.830 --> 25:43.050]  Wow.
[25:43.730 --> 25:45.030]  That's always special when they do that.
[25:45.250 --> 25:45.430]  Yeah.
[25:46.970 --> 25:57.710]  So when you called them in the daytime, though, to ask them this, it sounds really funny when you're wanting to find out the whereabouts of Vice President Cheney, as if he committed a crime or something, which he probably did somewhere.
[25:57.870 --> 25:58.450]  You never know.
[25:58.590 --> 25:59.990]  He can do things like that.
[26:01.010 --> 26:03.070]  Well, you know, I just asked the question the wrong way.
[26:03.870 --> 26:04.390]  What do you mean?
[26:04.490 --> 26:10.250]  I said, can you confirm the location of Vice President Dick Cheney on the morning of Tuesday, December...
[26:10.250 --> 26:10.910]  3rd, I think.
[26:12.350 --> 26:16.410]  And just as I reached that point, I realized that that's the way the cops ask it on TV.
[26:16.750 --> 26:19.030]  But that's a good way to ask questions because you get answers that way.
[26:19.190 --> 26:19.770]  Well, not really.
[26:19.870 --> 26:20.790]  The woman didn't say anything.
[26:21.050 --> 26:22.050]  The whole Sipowitz routine, you know?
[26:22.310 --> 26:27.090]  I just heard silence on the other end and after counting to 10, I said, well, can you help me?
[26:27.190 --> 26:28.870]  And she said, um, please hold.
[26:29.110 --> 26:32.230]  And redirected me a couple of times and eventually I got to leave a message.
[26:33.290 --> 26:34.550]  And open up a new file.
[26:35.350 --> 26:42.590]  Okay, well, you know, we are still looking into what exactly happened out there and we'll continue to do that.
[26:42.950 --> 26:48.710]  And we'll continue to offer voices to people who have things happen to them or claim to have things happen to them.
[26:48.990 --> 26:54.450]  And as always, it's up to our readers, up to our listeners to weigh the evidence and decide for themselves.
[26:54.850 --> 26:58.110]  Which is more than, you know, most of the media will give you.
[26:58.330 --> 27:01.670]  Preferably people who do have things happen to them rather than just claim to.
[27:01.870 --> 27:02.210]  Oh, yeah.
[27:02.530 --> 27:03.090]  But, you know.
[27:03.210 --> 27:04.650]  Well, I mean, yeah, of course.
[27:04.870 --> 27:07.150]  But that's kind of the implication.
[27:08.490 --> 27:09.010]  Let's see.
[27:09.090 --> 27:18.650]  This person writes in telling us that it turns out the entire story was fabricated by Republicans just to see if gullible liberals would swallow a sensational, uncorroborated story, hook, line, and sinker.
[27:18.650 --> 27:20.090]  Turns out they were right.
[27:21.130 --> 27:21.630]  Isn't that nice?
[27:21.890 --> 27:22.250]  That's...
[27:22.670 --> 27:23.550]  But, um...
[27:23.550 --> 27:24.270]  Where does that come from?
[27:24.430 --> 27:25.170]  Oh, it comes from somewhere.
[27:25.370 --> 27:30.250]  I wrote that letter to see if you would be gullible enough to read on there.
[27:30.430 --> 27:31.290]  Oh, I was.
[27:31.390 --> 27:32.210]  Hook, line, and sinker.
[27:32.330 --> 27:32.490]  Right.
[27:33.470 --> 27:42.970]  You know, the thing is, though, you have to understand with a story like that, part of the story is that it's uncorroborated, that people did this to me and they're denying it.
[27:43.630 --> 27:43.990]  Okay.
[27:44.430 --> 27:48.890]  So somebody does something to you and they deny it, um, how do you prove that they did it then?
[27:49.070 --> 27:55.930]  You know, the story is that they're denying it and it's up to people listening or reading, uh, who to believe.
[27:56.990 --> 28:02.770]  And, uh, we, we're continuing to, uh, you know, to, to look into and get more information on what's, uh, what's going on.
[28:03.150 --> 28:06.030]  I'm going to play, this is a different letter, I'm going to play The Devil's Advocate here.
[28:06.330 --> 28:11.210]  If Mike McGinnis' story is true, what makes it so terrible that he was taken in for questioning?
[28:11.390 --> 28:18.230]  You know, you see, this is interesting because now we see how people's minds are, are, are working and we see the questions that they're asking.
[28:18.370 --> 28:26.190]  Okay, so, um, regardless of what you think of, of the story, if it were true, what makes it so terrible that he was taken in for questioning?
[28:26.370 --> 28:32.410]  If you were a policeman, wouldn't you be obligated to question someone taking pictures of the security surrounding the vice president?
[28:32.750 --> 28:34.690]  Do you really find it that unbelievable?
[28:34.950 --> 28:37.590]  People are arrested but not charged all the time.
[28:37.810 --> 28:40.270]  This does not seem unusual to me.
[28:41.170 --> 28:45.930]  Also, you, um, oh, go ahead, let Leo go first.
[28:46.210 --> 28:52.850]  Okay, uh, according to that person's logic, they should, the police should arrest all the people taking photos of the White House.
[28:53.090 --> 28:55.430]  All the tourists should be arrested in question.
[28:55.990 --> 29:02.690]  I mean, that doesn't make any sense because it's people taking, you don't see a huge amount of security every day surrounding a building.
[29:03.010 --> 29:07.530]  So, and if you have a camera, you might want to take a picture because it's out of the ordinary.
[29:07.770 --> 29:08.350]  It's not a...
[29:08.350 --> 29:19.190]  Well, try taking a picture of the Secret Service guy at the little, uh, checkpoint in front of the White House with the telephoto lens or something like that and maybe they'll introduce you to some rooms in their buildings.
[29:19.670 --> 29:20.390]  I don't know.
[29:20.650 --> 29:23.150]  You know, they're very sensitive about these kinds of things.
[29:23.250 --> 29:28.730]  I've heard all kinds of stories since we reported this about similar things, about similar regulations.
[29:29.230 --> 29:34.310]  supposedly there's a sign on the Verrazano Bridge that says you're not allowed to take pictures on the bridge.
[29:35.170 --> 29:40.690]  Now, uh, maybe somebody out there is driving right now you could sort of veer over in that direction and tell us if that's in fact the case.
[29:40.770 --> 29:42.830]  I seem to recall actually seeing a sign like that myself.
[29:43.390 --> 29:45.810]  Now, how can you tell people not to take pictures of a bridge?
[29:45.970 --> 29:47.830]  A bridge, you know, where cars go over.
[29:48.030 --> 29:51.670]  I mean, they already have traffic cameras on the things and we know what it looks like.
[29:51.790 --> 29:52.810]  I think that's the point.
[29:52.970 --> 29:57.750]  They're concerned that maybe someone will stop to get a picture or a view and they don't want that to happen.
[29:57.750 --> 30:05.450]  I think, well, you know, that's covered quite well by, you know, traffic rules that say don't stop your car on a highway and get out and take pictures.
[30:05.930 --> 30:07.610]  You know, that's common sense.
[30:07.710 --> 30:11.850]  You don't need to put up these big ominous signs saying that picture taking is forbidden.
[30:12.150 --> 30:17.390]  I mean, I would interpret that to mean that a passenger in a car is not allowed to take a picture as you're moving.
[30:17.570 --> 30:19.330]  Let's see if we can get a photo of that sign.
[30:20.270 --> 30:21.930]  Well, that would be doubly illegal, wouldn't it?
[30:22.110 --> 30:23.510]  Well, only if we stop.
[30:25.190 --> 30:25.870]  Another letter here.
[30:25.910 --> 30:29.330]  As much as I hate to believe it, I've personally witnessed police harassment in another city.
[30:29.390 --> 30:32.070]  I find the story credible based on that experience.
[30:32.370 --> 30:39.190]  My own experience was in New York City and vicarious, but it was pretty eye-opening.
[30:39.730 --> 30:46.010]  A neighbor, black and I, white, had complained numerous times about a noise nuisance in our Brooklyn neighborhood.
[30:46.330 --> 31:01.330]  The last time she and I waited outside the building where she, not I, was confronted by a cop from the local precinct who instead of taking her complaint and confronting the noisy apartment tenants, began to bully her and was on the point of actually arresting her after implying that she had drugs on her,
[31:01.430 --> 31:01.570]  etc.
[31:02.170 --> 31:05.790]  She's a high school teacher, extremely conservative in both her politics and lifestyle.
[31:06.170 --> 31:08.970]  I finally grabbed her and got her to come back to my apartment with me.
[31:08.970 --> 31:10.730]  She was extremely upset and so was I.
[31:11.350 --> 31:15.410]  That was the short version, the point being that I will now believe anything about some police officers.
[31:16.050 --> 31:20.510]  It sounded pretty convincing to me and were I, Mr. McGinnis, I would be on CNN right now.
[31:20.650 --> 31:24.430]  Privacy be damned, this is something that concerns the safety and rights of all citizens.
[31:26.670 --> 31:30.530]  This actually reminds me of another anecdote, fairly typical of the Soviet Union.
[31:31.930 --> 31:45.490]  When I was a young man on a tour there, actually, you know, he's talking about a young man on a tour, that went to his grandparents' old village and took a picture of the railroad station from which they had left.
[31:46.010 --> 31:48.690]  He was arrested, interrogated, film and cameras, confiscated.
[31:49.190 --> 31:51.750]  You weren't supposed to take pictures of railroad installations.
[31:52.290 --> 31:53.930]  The Russians were at least a little fairer.
[31:54.010 --> 31:55.590]  They took the film and gave them back the camera.
[31:56.650 --> 32:00.430]  Yeah, I guess, you know, if you're going to see somebody's film, you should give back the camera.
[32:01.210 --> 32:03.010]  That's part of the rule book there.
[32:03.110 --> 32:03.830]  Sounds fair to me.
[32:04.010 --> 32:04.150]  Yeah.
[32:04.430 --> 32:05.710]  As a photographer, I agree.
[32:06.710 --> 32:08.210]  So you see, now, these letters are interesting.
[32:08.330 --> 32:12.490]  And again, that story I just read now, we're all, you know, shaking our heads and things like that.
[32:12.810 --> 32:15.130]  Uncorroborated, that's a story, you know, someone's telling us this.
[32:15.210 --> 32:28.030]  Maybe they just made it up, but I think there's enough people out there that have similar things happen to them, where they can say, you know, that reminds me of something, or it reminds me of what happened to a friend of mine, or how do we watch out for this kind of thing in the future?
[32:28.250 --> 32:29.430]  You know, what are the danger signs?
[32:29.490 --> 32:30.570]  Are we moving in that direction?
[32:30.690 --> 32:32.350]  And that's really what the point is.
[32:33.250 --> 32:34.310]  Let's look at another letter here.
[32:34.890 --> 32:40.690]  Dear Off the Hook, anyone who actually believes that the Secret Service or any other law enforcement agency doesn't bend the law is simply ignorant.
[32:40.910 --> 32:45.350]  Just find the relative in your family who is one and get him going with cop stories.
[32:45.430 --> 32:47.530]  Then ask yourself the same question again.
[32:48.210 --> 32:56.810]  Further, in this country, anyone with cable can see a behind-the-scenes look at the FBI or Secret Service on TV and have much more useful information than a simple snapshot from the street.
[32:56.970 --> 33:02.850]  I don't think government agencies should complain about a few distant shots when they are willing to give much more useful information for such programs.
[33:03.510 --> 33:06.970]  So, I do agree that Mr. McGinnis' story may be impossible to prove.
[33:06.970 --> 33:08.030]  It doesn't mean it didn't happen.
[33:08.230 --> 33:11.250]  The answer is to keep asking questions and never let your guard down.
[33:11.590 --> 33:16.110]  The minute we as a society stop asking questions is the exact minute that our freedoms will be invalid.
[33:17.530 --> 33:18.170]  I'm a Republican.
[33:18.890 --> 33:19.430]  All right.
[33:19.670 --> 33:20.970]  Thanks so much for writing.
[33:21.270 --> 33:31.090]  I'm really happy with a lot of the mail we've been getting because people, they're really looking into the right questions, I think, and being critical about all kinds of things.
[33:31.710 --> 33:40.590]  Here's a letter from Ken Gale, who you might remember as a host of Nuff Said, the program currently on hiatus, and hopefully he'll come back sometime in a comic book show here in WBAI.
[33:42.710 --> 33:44.230]  Hi folks, interesting show as usual.
[33:44.410 --> 33:46.550]  I was moved to call in but didn't get through for two reasons.
[33:47.990 --> 33:53.610]  Well, he didn't get through for one reason that we have so many phone calls, but he was moved to call in for two reasons.
[33:54.410 --> 33:57.930]  Number one, a story that happened to me, so this is not hearsay.
[33:58.970 --> 33:59.650]  Is that true?
[33:59.730 --> 34:00.410]  That's not hearsay?
[34:00.570 --> 34:01.290]  Well, it wasn't when you wrote it.
[34:01.290 --> 34:02.230]  To him, it's not hearsay.
[34:02.470 --> 34:03.470]  But I'm reading his...
[34:03.470 --> 34:04.830]  I don't even know if this really came from Ken Gale.
[34:04.830 --> 34:05.690]  It's now hearsay.
[34:05.970 --> 34:08.430]  Yeah, I'm hearsaying it right now, but...
[34:08.430 --> 34:09.550]  Let's just hear the story.
[34:09.570 --> 34:12.130]  Let's assume that this actually comes from Ken Gale and that it's true.
[34:13.230 --> 34:17.270]  A story that happened to me when the National Guard was all over the city after 9-11.
[34:17.490 --> 34:21.430]  My wife and I were walking down Lexington Avenue in front of one of the National Guard armories.
[34:21.730 --> 34:28.790]  At that time, they had a jeep on the street blocking the entrance with the space behind it to back into when they wanted to unblock the entrance to the armory.
[34:29.070 --> 34:30.970]  There was also a barricade in the doorway.
[34:31.510 --> 34:36.250]  So we were walking along the sidewalk and a soldier blocked our way because they wanted to bring a vehicle out.
[34:36.490 --> 34:40.550]  They hadn't moved the barricade, never mind in the jeep, so my wife kept walking.
[34:40.770 --> 34:45.650]  That pissed off the soldier and he told the guy getting into the jeep to back up and if she was there, run her over.
[34:46.070 --> 34:48.490]  I just stared at him and said, run her over?
[34:48.650 --> 34:49.810]  Are you one of the good guys?
[34:50.530 --> 34:53.270]  Surprisingly, he actually heard what I said and didn't make any comment.
[34:53.270 --> 34:54.670]  He just stared back.
[34:55.150 --> 35:08.890]  And the second, the second reason for all this, I kept thinking about the people who complained about last week's, or actually the show of two weeks ago, I commend you for allowing your critics some of your valuable airtime.
[35:09.130 --> 35:13.770]  I wonder if they would have done the same had their and your positions been reversed.
[35:14.130 --> 35:18.690]  Seems like they just didn't like people criticizing the police, whether that criticism is valid or not.
[35:19.090 --> 35:22.570]  Some of them may have been in the same occupation, but I suspect not all of them are.
[35:23.110 --> 35:27.410]  Somewhere along the line, criticizing the government has been equated with being against the country itself.
[35:27.690 --> 35:29.970]  They should read up on pre-revolutionary war history.
[35:30.190 --> 35:37.570]  The analogy I make is that when I criticize the lineup of the baseball team I root for, it's not because I hate the team, it's because I want the team to be better.
[35:37.830 --> 35:40.750]  The same thing goes for when I criticize the government or the police force.
[35:40.910 --> 35:42.450]  I want them to be better.
[35:43.070 --> 35:47.890]  That's a much better form of patriotism than simply accepting whatever they do without questioning it.
[35:48.190 --> 35:49.530]  That doesn't improve the situation.
[35:49.530 --> 35:51.210]  It makes it worse for everyone.
[35:52.090 --> 35:57.810]  I'm Ken Gale and you can visit his website at www.comicbookradioshow.com.
[35:57.850 --> 36:02.110]  It should be comic book radio show that isn't currently on the air at www.wbai.com.
[36:03.090 --> 36:04.050]  That's a bit wordy.
[36:04.090 --> 36:06.990]  Hopefully that won't be necessary in months ahead or whatever.
[36:07.510 --> 36:11.110]  But yeah, that's a small taste of some of the mail we've been getting.
[36:11.270 --> 36:12.590]  And thanks to everybody for writing in.
[36:12.830 --> 36:15.870]  Continue to write to us othat2600.com.
[36:16.210 --> 36:23.950]  Or if you feel like sending paper mail, send it to off-the-hook care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 10005.
[36:26.430 --> 36:27.510]  Shall we take phone calls?
[36:27.510 --> 36:30.490]  Calls 212-209-2900.
[36:31.150 --> 36:35.050]  If you have questions, comments, opinions to express.
[36:35.370 --> 36:35.650]  News.
[36:35.990 --> 36:36.930]  News of any sort.
[36:40.110 --> 36:41.330]  Yeah, yeah, we can do that.
[36:42.190 --> 36:46.050]  Wait for the lines to start lighting up here and hope that the first one is not you-know-who.
[36:46.110 --> 36:46.890]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[36:47.590 --> 36:49.190]  Okay, let me just call up my radio.
[36:49.590 --> 36:50.570]  Yeah, it sounds like you're in a stadium.
[36:51.030 --> 36:52.430]  I'm a first-time caller.
[36:52.590 --> 36:54.030]  Okay, well, you're the first caller tonight.
[36:54.670 --> 36:55.510]  Yes, I am.
[36:55.610 --> 36:56.370]  I love your show.
[36:56.370 --> 36:57.510]  I always listen to it.
[36:58.510 --> 37:02.670]  Emmanuel, I have a friend who you said is you-know-who.
[37:03.430 --> 37:05.470]  I think it's Mr. Ritchie.
[37:05.550 --> 37:06.590]  Is that who we're talking about?
[37:07.190 --> 37:08.030]  I'm not sure.
[37:09.190 --> 37:09.670]  Rebel?
[37:11.710 --> 37:12.350]  Wait a minute.
[37:12.390 --> 37:13.630]  You're with Rebel right now?
[37:13.870 --> 37:14.470]  No, I'm not.
[37:15.130 --> 37:17.850]  He actually, I know him since he's a kid.
[37:17.990 --> 37:18.270]  Uh-huh.
[37:19.050 --> 37:28.010]  And he always wanted me to listen to him get on the air and talk about how all these advertising is, you know, he-he-that's his point.
[37:28.110 --> 37:29.910]  He hates advertising, right?
[37:30.090 --> 37:31.570]  Yeah, he's made that point many times.
[37:31.670 --> 37:33.790]  You know, it's funny though, he hates advertising.
[37:33.910 --> 37:34.470]  Do you know what he does?
[37:34.650 --> 37:35.970]  He forwards us spam.
[37:37.070 --> 37:38.610]  We don't get enough spam as it is.
[37:38.730 --> 37:42.230]  He sees spam and he forwards it to us saying, oh, look at this.
[37:42.550 --> 37:44.990]  And, you know, we've already seen it a million times.
[37:45.130 --> 37:46.770]  Why would somebody forward someone else spam?
[37:46.910 --> 37:47.850]  I never could figure that out.
[37:48.130 --> 37:53.830]  Well, I just want to say, I think he looks at you as family instead of as media.
[37:54.170 --> 37:55.250]  You know, so...
[37:55.250 --> 37:55.630]  Oh, joy.
[37:56.350 --> 37:57.870]  It's his two favorite things.
[37:58.050 --> 38:00.110]  He needs family and he needs media.
[38:00.310 --> 38:00.670]  Uh-huh.
[38:00.790 --> 38:02.070]  So, and it's working.
[38:02.070 --> 38:03.590]  He's a very intelligent guy.
[38:04.130 --> 38:07.390]  He has his deal, as you know, and...
[38:07.390 --> 38:13.950]  Well, and he appears at the local 2600 meetings here in New York, so for those of you who can't quite believe...
[38:13.950 --> 38:14.090]  Yes.
[38:14.230 --> 38:14.590]  What's that?
[38:15.210 --> 38:16.250]  He always invites me.
[38:16.390 --> 38:20.110]  He says, come to the 2600 meeting at City Corp building.
[38:20.250 --> 38:20.910]  City group building.
[38:21.150 --> 38:21.950]  City group building.
[38:21.950 --> 38:22.170]  Yes.
[38:22.230 --> 38:23.890]  We must update our lexicon here.
[38:24.650 --> 38:25.050]  Yes.
[38:25.210 --> 38:28.150]  And the next one will be January 3rd from 5 to 8 p.m.
[38:28.950 --> 38:29.710]  right there in the lobby.
[38:30.130 --> 38:31.190]  Try to make it.
[38:31.250 --> 38:32.690]  Hopefully we'll see you there.
[38:32.690 --> 38:33.890]  My name is Adam.
[38:34.850 --> 38:38.930]  I'm a big WBAI supporter and listener and caller.
[38:40.390 --> 38:44.650]  And I always thought off the host as one of the best shows going, so...
[38:44.650 --> 38:46.870]  Well, make sure you tell everybody that.
[38:47.270 --> 38:47.870]  I do.
[38:47.970 --> 38:48.530]  I always do.
[38:48.630 --> 38:51.010]  And I just want you know, Richie is a good kid.
[38:51.190 --> 38:51.590]  Okay.
[38:51.770 --> 38:53.430]  You know, I've known him since he's a kid.
[38:54.870 --> 38:56.690]  And he's just a sincere guy.
[38:56.890 --> 38:57.890]  He really is.
[38:58.850 --> 39:00.110]  But he has his deal.
[39:00.610 --> 39:00.930]  Okay.
[39:02.010 --> 39:02.470]  All right.
[39:02.570 --> 39:02.870]  Well, thanks.
[39:02.990 --> 39:03.510]  I just want to...
[39:03.510 --> 39:04.350]  Can I say something to let me...
[39:04.350 --> 39:04.930]  Yes, go ahead.
[39:05.190 --> 39:09.570]  I just want to say how shocked him throwing his hat in the political arena.
[39:10.070 --> 39:11.710]  And I just want to say...
[39:11.710 --> 39:13.510]  Did he get it back from the last time he threw it in?
[39:14.630 --> 39:23.290]  Actually, he did pretty well last time in the Democratic primary, but the thing is, I would never vote for him for president, only for one reason.
[39:23.430 --> 39:25.130]  I think it would be a useless vote.
[39:25.370 --> 39:29.530]  There's no way he's ever going to win across the nation.
[39:29.790 --> 39:30.630]  Well, here's the thing.
[39:31.090 --> 39:32.470]  Here's the problem I have with that statement.
[39:32.590 --> 39:36.730]  Now, I don't think any vote is a useless vote if you're voting for somebody you believe in.
[39:37.290 --> 39:44.670]  And we've been programmed in this country, if your candidate isn't the top runner, you're throwing away your vote if you vote for somebody that's a third-party candidate.
[39:45.390 --> 39:47.870]  You should vote for who you think is the best candidate, no matter what.
[39:48.070 --> 39:57.710]  But what about if the voting for that person brings in the ultimate candidate we don't want, like Bush?
[39:58.270 --> 40:02.530]  You know, he won, even though, to me, Gore, you know, is a nice guy.
[40:02.690 --> 40:04.250]  He's not the greatest candidate.
[40:04.490 --> 40:07.410]  But we want him more than we do W, don't we?
[40:07.890 --> 40:09.110]  Well, let's put it this way.
[40:09.190 --> 40:18.190]  If more people had voted for Nader than, you know, had switched their vote at the last minute and voted for Gore, you might actually have seen some real change as far as the power of third-party candidates.
[40:18.670 --> 40:19.650]  I voted for Nader.
[40:19.890 --> 40:20.110]  Uh-huh.
[40:20.250 --> 40:23.690]  So a lot of people, though, decided to chicken out and vote for Gore.
[40:24.170 --> 40:26.870]  Now, Gore won the popular vote, but he still lost the election.
[40:27.210 --> 40:36.410]  If Nader had gotten that 5%, which he easily could have gotten, I think, if those people hadn't done that, then he would have gotten matching funds and you would have seen a much stronger showing in future elections.
[40:36.410 --> 40:38.790]  So, yeah, I think that's where the difference could have been made.
[40:39.250 --> 40:39.730]  Too bad.
[40:39.910 --> 40:41.290]  I'll let somebody else get on.
[40:41.430 --> 40:42.710]  This time is running out.
[40:42.990 --> 40:43.210]  Okay.
[40:43.470 --> 40:45.350]  Manuel, nice being the first time on your show.
[40:45.490 --> 40:46.250]  Okay, thanks for calling.
[40:46.370 --> 40:47.050]  We'll see you at the meeting sometime.
[40:48.850 --> 40:52.690]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[40:52.730 --> 40:53.190]  Let's go over here.
[40:53.290 --> 40:53.550]  Good evening.
[40:53.610 --> 40:54.050]  You're on the air.
[40:55.590 --> 40:56.270]  Speak up, please.
[40:57.110 --> 40:57.870]  Hi, is this BAI?
[40:57.910 --> 40:58.950]  Yes, it is, and you're on the air.
[40:59.130 --> 40:59.570]  Oh, hi.
[41:00.010 --> 41:01.650]  I didn't realize I was going to get on right away.
[41:01.870 --> 41:02.530]  Yeah, it happens sometimes.
[41:02.790 --> 41:05.370]  I've got a question about telephone service.
[41:05.570 --> 41:05.870]  Mm-hmm.
[41:07.450 --> 41:15.050]  Right now, I live in Manhattan, and I'm going to be temporarily moving to the Bronx, and I'd like to know, is there a way for me to take my phone number to the Bronx?
[41:15.490 --> 41:16.290]  What's your area code?
[41:17.410 --> 41:19.050]  Well, right now, it's 212.
[41:19.190 --> 41:19.850]  212, yes.
[41:20.270 --> 41:24.370]  Are you looking to keep the seven-digit number in a different area code, or bring the 212 with you?
[41:24.690 --> 41:27.590]  I'm looking to keep the seven-digit number plus the 212.
[41:28.150 --> 41:29.410]  Okay, so you want the whole thing.
[41:29.590 --> 41:29.730]  Yeah.
[41:29.750 --> 41:43.070]  The only way you can do that is by having a remote call forwarding, or just keeping it in someone's house in your neighborhood and forwarding it that way, which probably wouldn't cost you anything except for the cost of the line, they're not going to give you a 212 number in the Bronx.
[41:43.290 --> 41:45.130]  They're going to assist on 718 or 347.
[41:45.370 --> 41:45.710]  Okay.
[41:46.710 --> 41:52.730]  You know, a 917 might be able to travel with you in various areas, but that's the only exception to that.
[41:53.030 --> 41:54.770]  Okay, that's what I was actually planning to do.
[41:54.870 --> 41:59.210]  I was just going to have the call forwarded to a new number in the Bronx.
[41:59.230 --> 42:07.510]  That's the cheapest way, because if you ask for a specific number, they're going to charge you a gold number fee, and that's like monthly maintenance, and you really don't want that.
[42:07.670 --> 42:08.010]  Okay.
[42:08.270 --> 42:10.370]  You know, that really adds up.
[42:11.530 --> 42:12.810]  Well, thanks for the advice.
[42:12.990 --> 42:13.550]  Okay, good luck.
[42:13.750 --> 42:14.110]  Okay, thanks.
[42:14.210 --> 42:14.350]  Bye.
[42:15.330 --> 42:19.850]  You know, people's telephone numbers are their identities, you know, and you can't just change it like that.
[42:19.870 --> 42:21.670]  I'm still upset about losing 516.
[42:22.350 --> 42:24.610]  I don't feel an affinity to 631 at all.
[42:25.590 --> 42:28.570]  Sorry, I know a lot of people are going to be offended by that, but I just don't.
[42:29.870 --> 42:31.530]  You know, a few weeks ago...
[42:31.530 --> 42:33.470]  Mr. 516, he's going to gloat?
[42:33.710 --> 42:38.690]  A few weeks ago, we were talking about this thing where you're going to have to dial 1 before the area code, no matter where you are.
[42:38.730 --> 42:38.850]  Yeah.
[42:39.230 --> 42:43.530]  And there were a lot of theories about it, and I just thought I'd quickly offer my own, which is that...
[42:43.530 --> 42:56.690]  Remember, I don't know how many years ago it was now, carrier codes, you know, for choosing your long-distance carrier, you used to dial 1-0, and then the carrier code, and then the number, and it changed to 10-10, plus the carrier code, plus the number,
[42:56.790 --> 43:11.650]  but what we found out was that it wasn't really 10-10, so much as that second 10 had become part of the new carrier code, and carrier codes had gone from 3 to 5 digits, and so 2-8-8 had become 10-2-8-8, and my theory is that area codes are going to go to 4 digits.
[43:11.830 --> 43:13.790]  I wish area codes had gone to 4 digits before.
[43:13.950 --> 43:15.390]  We wouldn't have to go through this nonsense.
[43:15.690 --> 43:20.610]  But I think that we're going to be 1-2-1-2, and the island will be 1-5-1-6, or 1-6-3-1.
[43:20.690 --> 43:21.370]  Yeah, but it's too late.
[43:21.450 --> 43:22.390]  They already messed it up.
[43:22.470 --> 43:29.090]  You know, if they had done this before when I suggested to them that they do this, you know, they wouldn't have had to have been a 7-1-8.
[43:29.090 --> 43:31.930]  It could have been, you know, 2-1-2-2, or 2-1-2-3, or whatever.
[43:32.490 --> 43:41.430]  And nowadays, you need a college degree of a very specified sort to figure out where area codes are, whereas before, anybody could memorize them.
[43:41.810 --> 43:44.930]  Not that anybody did, but it was possible to do this.
[43:45.050 --> 43:45.950]  Well, there was at least one guy.
[43:46.190 --> 43:47.490]  Yeah, there were a couple.
[43:48.450 --> 43:50.130]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-2-900.
[43:50.390 --> 43:51.010]  Good evening.
[43:51.150 --> 43:51.670]  You're on the air.
[43:52.570 --> 43:52.970]  Hi.
[43:53.170 --> 43:53.490]  How are you doing?
[43:53.670 --> 43:56.410]  First of all, I'd like to say Sharpton Lieberman for president.
[43:56.810 --> 43:57.310]  Oh, that's interesting.
[43:57.890 --> 43:58.290]  Okay.
[43:58.570 --> 44:03.790]  I'd also like to know, is there any way you can discreetly check to see if your home phone is tapped or...
[44:03.790 --> 44:05.270]  Well, let's put it this way.
[44:05.450 --> 44:09.930]  The people tapping your phone generally don't want you to know.
[44:10.550 --> 44:16.130]  So they're not, they're going to really make sure that, you know, that you don't have any way of finding out.
[44:16.930 --> 44:20.450]  There's not a beep, there's not a number you can call that will tell you that your phone is tapped.
[44:20.570 --> 44:21.430]  There's nothing so simple.
[44:21.750 --> 44:30.910]  The only way really to find out is to go through the right channels and find somebody in a place who knows that's going to tell you the truth, which is not easy to do.
[44:31.610 --> 44:43.530]  Tapping technology has also improved a lot over the years, so whereas there used to be stories of people hearing clicks and breathing on the line and this and that, they generally don't do that so much nowadays.
[44:43.790 --> 44:48.350]  No, they've gotten, they've gotten mute buttons so they don't have to breathe in the air anymore.
[44:48.430 --> 45:00.410]  Is it true that certain words can trigger a, some sort of, I read somewhere some time ago that certain words or certain conversations could trigger some sort of monitoring?
[45:00.670 --> 45:05.070]  Well, yeah, that's part of the lore of both the past and the present.
[45:05.570 --> 45:14.890]  Certainly if you're speaking to somebody outside of the country, your phone conversation will be picked up by echelon and certain words will be picked out.
[45:15.070 --> 45:20.610]  But if you're talking, if you're an American, talking to an American, at least for the moment, I think you're pretty safe.
[45:20.790 --> 45:21.430]  For the moment.
[45:21.550 --> 45:29.510]  But the technology is, you know, not only is the technology existing to be able to monitor this kind of thing, but also to store it and monitor it 10 years from now.
[45:29.790 --> 45:30.490]  Think about that.
[45:30.670 --> 45:31.830]  You know, that's the scary thing.
[45:31.950 --> 45:32.210]  Bye-bye.
[45:32.650 --> 45:32.970]  Okay.
[45:34.310 --> 45:35.330]  That scared her enough.
[45:35.650 --> 45:37.050]  I think we said all the trigger words.
[45:37.110 --> 45:37.710]  Making her...
[45:37.710 --> 45:40.310]  I was just about to say, AK-47 and Al-Qaeda.
[45:41.630 --> 45:41.990]  Okay.
[45:42.090 --> 45:42.730]  Well, now you said it.
[45:42.790 --> 45:43.150]  Are you happy?
[45:43.410 --> 45:45.150]  Well, we're not on the phone anymore, so...
[45:45.150 --> 45:45.450]  Good evening.
[45:45.490 --> 45:45.910]  You're on the air.
[45:47.210 --> 45:47.730]  Go ahead.
[45:48.650 --> 45:49.210]  Anyone there?
[45:50.190 --> 45:50.430]  Hello?
[45:50.610 --> 45:51.130]  Yes, go ahead.
[45:51.830 --> 45:52.290]  Speak up.
[45:53.090 --> 45:53.930]  I got a...
[45:53.930 --> 45:55.310]  about your last call there.
[45:55.450 --> 45:55.710]  Uh-huh.
[45:56.330 --> 45:57.830]  She's a little bit off the edge, isn't she?
[45:58.250 --> 45:59.390]  Uh, why would you say that?
[45:59.890 --> 46:04.430]  Well, first she thinks, uh, Sharp didn't leave him in, and then she thinks someone's listening to her phone.
[46:04.870 --> 46:06.110]  I think the two go together.
[46:06.810 --> 46:07.910]  Well, you listened to her call, right?
[46:08.090 --> 46:10.250]  So, uh, you know, she's an interesting person to listen to.
[46:10.630 --> 46:11.690]  Everybody has their own opinion.
[46:11.870 --> 46:12.490]  What's your opinion?
[46:13.330 --> 46:14.310]  I think she's crazy.
[46:14.430 --> 46:15.210]  No, not on her.
[46:15.490 --> 46:15.950]  What's your...
[46:16.490 --> 46:19.570]  You picked up the phone to call us to say something else, I imagine, right?
[46:19.970 --> 46:20.930]  No, that was it.
[46:21.250 --> 46:21.770]  That was it?
[46:21.850 --> 46:22.310]  Okay, well...
[46:22.310 --> 46:22.710]  I'm listening.
[46:22.850 --> 46:23.230]  Thanks a lot.
[46:23.270 --> 46:24.130]  All right, thanks for calling.
[46:25.170 --> 46:39.510]  All right, let's try to keep the comments away from other listeners and onto the subject at hand, which is basically, uh, um, technology and, um, and, and Orwellian future and all the things that have been happening to us in the past and the prospects for the future and that kind of thing,
[46:39.590 --> 46:39.710]  right?
[46:40.090 --> 46:40.370]  All right.
[46:40.690 --> 46:40.950]  Good evening.
[46:41.070 --> 46:41.410]  You're on the air.
[46:42.410 --> 46:42.770]  Hello.
[46:43.130 --> 46:43.590]  How you doing?
[46:43.950 --> 46:44.190]  Good.
[47:00.770 --> 47:04.850]  Is there any way to avoid giving them that information and still get service?
[47:05.130 --> 47:20.630]  Uh, they will generally discourage you, but from what I understand, uh, as far as your local phone company, meaning Verizon, uh, they will, the most they can do is simply charge you a deposit, which will, they'll refund, I believe, after a year with interest.
[47:20.970 --> 47:32.530]  Uh, with other companies, especially cellular companies like Sprint PCS and, uh, Voice Stream, you cannot get the service unless, uh, unless you have a, a prepaid service without giving them that information.
[47:32.690 --> 47:33.910]  This was local service.
[47:34.130 --> 47:37.230]  Then, then you don't have to give them that information, but they might charge you something.
[47:37.630 --> 47:39.870]  Do you have, have you had existing service with them over the years?
[47:40.290 --> 47:42.350]  Uh, not with the service that I switched to.
[47:42.550 --> 47:43.130]  Uh-huh, but...
[47:43.130 --> 47:48.970]  I had been with Verizon, and then I wasn't happy with, they were increasing my rate, so I was switching to another service.
[47:49.170 --> 47:49.410]  Uh-huh.
[47:49.490 --> 47:58.050]  And when I did it, they asked me for this information, and they informed me, they claimed that I couldn't get the service unless I gave them the Uh-huh.
[47:58.190 --> 48:01.210]  There are some... What company was it that you went to?
[48:01.330 --> 48:02.030]  AT&T.
[48:02.510 --> 48:08.170]  There are some companies that won't give you a particular type of a plan unless they do a credit check on you.
[48:08.390 --> 48:08.530]  Right.
[48:08.530 --> 48:09.150]  That's the only thing.
[48:09.230 --> 48:11.130]  But you say they ask for your driver's license number instead?
[48:11.230 --> 48:11.430]  Yeah.
[48:11.630 --> 48:15.570]  Give them that because... I didn't want to give them my social security number, so they asked for my driver's license number.
[48:15.570 --> 48:21.630]  Yeah, so it sounds like what they're looking for is just some kind of reference number on you because you can't run a driver's license number and get a credit report.
[48:22.030 --> 48:22.250]  Hmm.
[48:22.370 --> 48:25.290]  You know, so that's a safer number to give them.
[48:25.450 --> 48:25.750]  Okay.
[48:25.910 --> 48:26.510]  I would do that.
[48:26.510 --> 48:27.410]  I did the right thing.
[48:27.610 --> 48:27.730]  Yes.
[48:27.870 --> 48:28.070]  Good.
[48:28.110 --> 48:28.350]  Good.
[48:28.570 --> 48:28.970]  Congratulations.
[48:29.450 --> 48:29.890]  Thank you.
[48:30.070 --> 48:30.230]  Good luck.
[48:30.410 --> 48:30.630]  Bye-bye.
[48:31.410 --> 48:33.090]  212-209-2900.
[48:33.370 --> 48:33.770]  Good evening.
[48:33.910 --> 48:34.290]  You're on the air.
[48:35.210 --> 48:35.470]  Hello.
[48:35.750 --> 48:36.130]  Go ahead.
[48:36.770 --> 48:37.150]  Hi.
[48:37.390 --> 48:37.810]  How are you doing?
[48:37.830 --> 48:38.350]  I'm the juice.
[48:38.590 --> 48:39.850]  I work for the Transit Authority.
[48:40.010 --> 48:40.330]  Oh.
[48:41.010 --> 48:41.410]  Hello.
[48:41.990 --> 48:44.230]  Are you by any chance a station agent?
[48:44.950 --> 48:45.270]  No.
[48:45.490 --> 48:46.230]  I'm an inspector.
[48:46.550 --> 48:47.970]  Am I the only person... Road car inspector?
[48:48.970 --> 48:50.150]  Road car inspector.
[48:50.390 --> 48:53.570]  Hey, you're going to take it 12 years before you get seniority from Monday to Friday.
[48:53.570 --> 48:54.750]  What sort of inspector are you?
[48:55.190 --> 48:55.410]  Huh?
[48:55.530 --> 48:56.490]  What sort of inspector?
[48:56.510 --> 48:57.170]  Car inspector are you?
[48:57.650 --> 48:58.350]  Car inspector.
[48:58.490 --> 48:59.030]  Car inspector.
[48:59.190 --> 48:59.330]  Okay.
[48:59.830 --> 49:00.270]  Hey, listen.
[49:00.410 --> 49:00.610]  Yes.
[49:00.730 --> 49:05.830]  You know, I'm listening to this and, you know, I'm hearing about people taking pictures.
[49:05.970 --> 49:09.250]  I don't know if you were on the internet, but, you know, there's a lot of buffs out there.
[49:09.490 --> 49:11.370]  And they're taking pictures of subways.
[49:11.570 --> 49:14.170]  They're taking pictures of Metro Noir.
[49:14.490 --> 49:17.230]  They're taking pictures of the railroad systems.
[49:17.610 --> 49:18.050]  Mm-hmm.
[49:18.090 --> 49:19.490]  And the cops are coming after them.
[49:19.490 --> 49:22.850]  So, if you take a picture of a subway car, you're saying you're going to get arrested?
[49:23.150 --> 49:23.870]  It's possible.
[49:24.090 --> 49:24.350]  Really?
[49:25.150 --> 49:25.870]  It's possible.
[49:26.150 --> 49:27.870]  They don't know what you're going to do with that information.
[49:28.670 --> 49:30.490]  Well, what could you do with that information?
[49:30.610 --> 49:30.750]  Huh?
[49:30.910 --> 49:32.110]  What could you do with that information?
[49:32.850 --> 49:33.790]  Compile a database.
[49:34.370 --> 49:34.730]  Okay.
[49:34.730 --> 49:35.690]  What's wrong with that?
[49:35.850 --> 49:36.590]  A database of what?
[49:36.630 --> 49:37.670]  The way subway cars look?
[49:37.990 --> 49:39.030]  You said it's Al-Qaeda.
[49:39.390 --> 49:41.090]  What can Al-Qaeda do with it?
[49:42.330 --> 49:42.870]  I know.
[49:43.470 --> 49:44.810]  Can't Al-Qaeda go to the library?
[49:44.810 --> 49:52.290]  I had flack on my shop floor from a supervisor, because I had taken some pics for myself, you know?
[49:52.410 --> 50:00.830]  And I found out one of the deputy superintendents had posted pics on the internet that I wanted to write up an instruction manual.
[50:01.030 --> 50:01.790]  But you know what?
[50:01.930 --> 50:02.670]  It's okay.
[50:02.950 --> 50:03.950]  It's personal use.
[50:04.250 --> 50:10.370]  The only law in a subway system is that you're not on an instruction, but you're scared.
[50:11.090 --> 50:11.650]  Yeah.
[50:12.330 --> 50:15.250]  They're really scared, and you can't blame anybody.
[50:16.710 --> 50:27.190]  Because people are taking pictures on the platforms, people have pictures of the stations and the stairs, and they're putting maps.
[50:27.350 --> 50:28.670]  Presumably, they're putting maps together.
[50:29.370 --> 50:30.910]  But don't maps already exist?
[50:31.250 --> 50:32.430]  We know this.
[50:32.810 --> 50:35.250]  There are websites that have the whole track layout.
[50:35.410 --> 50:36.170]  Of course!
[50:36.490 --> 50:37.310]  We know this.
[50:37.410 --> 50:38.390]  In great detail.
[50:38.570 --> 50:39.530]  I mean, I think it's a good thing.
[50:39.670 --> 50:40.730]  People are fascinated by it.
[50:40.730 --> 50:43.070]  Curiosity is not something that's evil.
[50:43.850 --> 50:48.490]  I mean, you understand this, I know, but there are a lot of people that really don't get it.
[50:48.530 --> 50:49.450]  But they're afraid.
[50:49.690 --> 50:56.250]  They're thinking they're getting refresh information, and nobody realized this stuff has been out there for years, for almost 100 years.
[50:56.410 --> 50:56.790]  Yeah.
[50:57.570 --> 50:59.290]  And they don't know what to do.
[50:59.530 --> 51:00.790]  They don't know what to do.
[51:01.150 --> 51:08.590]  And, you know, like I said, it used to be, the concern was, you're coming in there with a camera and a tripod, and somebody's going to fall down.
[51:08.790 --> 51:10.030]  You should see the bicycles.
[51:10.450 --> 51:18.150]  And I saw some old lady with one of those strollers, those running strollers for two kids.
[51:18.150 --> 51:24.170]  And she gets in a freaking R142 car and takes up the whole side of the car.
[51:25.150 --> 51:26.170]  People are going to get hurt.
[51:26.550 --> 51:27.170]  Yeah, yeah.
[51:27.330 --> 51:27.910]  You an RCI?
[51:28.730 --> 51:31.570]  No, I'm a disgraced station agent.
[51:31.990 --> 51:32.970]  No, no, no.
[51:33.450 --> 51:36.010]  Look up Red Balacava on Google, and you'll see why.
[51:36.050 --> 51:36.610]  I have a question.
[51:36.810 --> 51:37.190]  Yes, sir.
[51:37.950 --> 51:41.530]  You get the internal newsletter at your service, right?
[51:41.950 --> 51:43.050]  What do you mean the internal newsletter?
[51:43.050 --> 51:45.170]  Maybe it's not for...
[51:45.170 --> 51:46.190]  I don't have...
[51:46.190 --> 51:48.150]  See, this is my fight with T.A.
[51:50.330 --> 51:51.330]  I want to learn.
[51:51.490 --> 51:52.390]  I want information.
[51:52.870 --> 51:54.230]  And they have intranet.
[51:54.430 --> 51:55.990]  And I don't have access to intranet.
[51:56.170 --> 51:59.030]  Oh, the internal intranet is not accessible outside, you know.
[51:59.110 --> 52:00.750]  No, yes, I'm well aware of that.
[52:00.890 --> 52:01.030]  Yeah.
[52:01.350 --> 52:01.950]  But anyway...
[52:01.950 --> 52:04.990]  The educational materials, the technical materials are out.
[52:05.130 --> 52:16.050]  Not only are they not accessible outside, but the union bitched, and they said, Oh, you're using these new kiosks to do write-up inspection reports.
[52:16.350 --> 52:18.930]  And these guys are not paid for the work.
[52:19.070 --> 52:23.130]  We're not being paid for the operation of computer terminals.
[52:23.350 --> 52:24.730]  They shut them down and pulled them out.
[52:24.970 --> 52:25.110]  Yeah.
[52:25.430 --> 52:25.610]  Wow.
[52:25.810 --> 52:26.190]  Stinks.
[52:26.690 --> 52:27.610]  It stinks.
[52:28.030 --> 52:28.390]  Yeah.
[52:28.650 --> 52:29.470]  Yeah, well...
[52:29.470 --> 52:29.770]  Stinks.
[52:29.890 --> 52:30.670]  It definitely stinks.
[52:30.750 --> 52:32.230]  And you guys just averted a big strike.
[52:32.530 --> 52:34.550]  I don't think you made out too well.
[52:34.550 --> 52:41.230]  I was on strike with IBEW in a defense plan 25 years ago for $0.35 an hour.
[52:41.590 --> 52:45.630]  We won the strike, and two weeks later, 400 people lost their jobs.
[52:45.930 --> 52:46.690]  So what do we get?
[52:46.810 --> 52:47.310]  This bonus?
[52:47.890 --> 52:49.810]  Not even $0.35 an hour.
[52:49.990 --> 52:50.390]  Yeah.
[52:50.530 --> 52:51.590]  It's the 21st century.
[52:52.210 --> 53:06.330]  Well, anyway, the point I was trying to make is the newsletter, which I know goes to station agents, mentioned two or three issues ago that from now on, if you have a website, you're not allowed to put any TA documents of any sort on there.
[53:06.730 --> 53:09.390]  I'm going to close TA website, okay?
[53:09.610 --> 53:09.850]  Uh-huh.
[53:10.010 --> 53:11.150]  I got a lot of stuff on there.
[53:11.530 --> 53:18.150]  The bottom line is, never, ever make bad comments about the TA.
[53:18.790 --> 53:19.730]  Oh, don't...
[53:19.730 --> 53:20.370]  I know that.
[53:20.370 --> 53:20.790]  Okay?
[53:21.550 --> 53:22.110]  I...
[53:22.110 --> 53:23.330]  I'm an engineer.
[53:23.950 --> 53:27.730]  I change oil and brakes on the new trains.
[53:28.070 --> 53:29.310]  They stink.
[53:29.690 --> 53:31.630]  Those new trains stink, if you ask me.
[53:31.910 --> 53:32.190]  What?
[53:32.390 --> 53:33.790]  I said those new trains stink.
[53:34.110 --> 53:36.630]  They can't update them quickly enough.
[53:37.110 --> 53:37.730]  You know, they...
[53:37.730 --> 53:39.110]  We don't have the access.
[53:39.570 --> 53:39.710]  Yeah.
[53:39.730 --> 53:40.710]  We don't have the software.
[53:41.150 --> 53:42.490]  We don't have the equipment.
[53:42.770 --> 53:44.130]  You know what I did for 21 years?
[53:44.330 --> 53:46.410]  I serviced video games and pinball machines.
[53:46.590 --> 53:47.430]  I know this stuff.
[53:47.930 --> 53:48.490]  Okay?
[53:48.490 --> 53:51.970]  Hey, those R142 trains, they're my new pinball machine.
[53:52.470 --> 53:54.050]  We do not have the information.
[53:54.410 --> 53:54.570]  Yeah.
[53:54.810 --> 53:57.970]  I mean, they have potential, but there's so much that needs to be done to them.
[53:58.030 --> 54:02.770]  For instance, just having on the front of the train, the number of the train a lot bigger and in the right color.
[54:02.990 --> 54:04.050]  You know, you can't tell a train's coming.
[54:04.090 --> 54:04.650]  There's only one color.
[54:04.830 --> 54:05.290]  It's red.
[54:05.430 --> 54:05.590]  Yeah.
[54:05.670 --> 54:06.130]  Why is that?
[54:06.170 --> 54:07.270]  Why does it have to be just one color?
[54:07.350 --> 54:08.110]  Why can't they merge?
[54:08.470 --> 54:09.010]  Deep belly dee.
[54:09.150 --> 54:09.450]  Mm-hmm.
[54:09.570 --> 54:12.910]  And why can't they change the recordings to indicate different trains, you know?
[54:12.910 --> 54:14.630]  Because the software isn't there.
[54:14.770 --> 54:15.070]  That's...
[54:15.070 --> 54:17.010]  We're dealing with Bombardier of Canada.
[54:17.010 --> 54:18.850]  They don't give us the stuff.
[54:19.090 --> 54:19.270]  Mm-hmm.
[54:19.270 --> 54:22.550]  We got my crew, my crew, the number five.
[54:22.810 --> 54:25.710]  I think we have one laptop with outdated software.
[54:26.090 --> 54:28.250]  You want to test the air conditioning in those trains?
[54:28.510 --> 54:30.390]  You need a laptop.
[54:30.390 --> 54:31.210]  We don't have it.
[54:31.890 --> 54:32.530]  Let me ask you.
[54:32.550 --> 54:36.290]  I have two Transit Authority people here, one former Transit Authority person.
[54:36.570 --> 54:38.430]  What would have happened in the event of the strike?
[54:38.570 --> 54:44.970]  Like, you know, if it had happened, if midnight had come around and you were on a train, do they just get out of the train and leave it in the station?
[54:44.970 --> 54:46.550]  Or do they drive it back someplace?
[54:46.770 --> 54:49.170]  And if so, why do they drive it back someplace if they're on strike?
[54:49.370 --> 55:04.790]  We got specific orders from the union that said to us, depending upon your job, you take the train home, you're an RCI, you do your job, you're an inspector, you go to your shop, you lock your tools up.
[55:04.890 --> 55:05.330]  That's it.
[55:05.470 --> 55:05.710]  Okay.
[55:05.710 --> 55:07.190]  No one was going to be trapped.
[55:07.470 --> 55:08.670]  No one was going to be stuck.
[55:08.970 --> 55:10.450]  The trains were not going to be left.
[55:11.710 --> 55:15.850]  People in transit, especially technical people, are the most reliable that there are.
[55:16.010 --> 55:17.590]  They're the most responsible people.
[55:17.830 --> 55:24.070]  When we had our demonstration last night down there in City Hall, we had all these cops with their gold badges.
[55:24.490 --> 55:26.510]  Those guys made Boku overtime.
[55:26.850 --> 55:29.430]  They were happy because we were civil.
[55:29.650 --> 55:30.490]  Yeah, yeah.
[55:30.490 --> 55:31.110]  They were responsible.
[55:32.150 --> 55:39.990]  Car equipment department, inspectors, road car inspectors, are responsible for the safety of passengers and systems.
[55:40.690 --> 55:42.070]  No one is going to get hurt.
[55:42.470 --> 55:42.830]  Okay.
[55:43.170 --> 55:44.170]  Listen, we're going to have to move on.
[55:44.350 --> 55:44.890]  Thanks for calling.
[55:46.070 --> 55:47.690]  Member of the Transit Authority calling us.
[55:47.790 --> 55:48.970]  Let's take one more phone call.
[55:49.670 --> 55:50.410]  Let's go over here.
[55:50.710 --> 55:51.050]  Good evening.
[55:51.130 --> 55:51.570]  You're on the air.
[55:52.150 --> 55:52.750]  Hey, hello.
[55:52.890 --> 55:53.350]  How are you?
[55:53.450 --> 55:53.810]  How are you doing?
[55:53.890 --> 55:54.450]  You have to make it quick.
[56:01.490 --> 56:05.730]  Because he was supposed to get the matching to get the funds next time, he got 5%.
[56:05.730 --> 56:06.010]  Right.
[56:06.410 --> 56:07.530]  And he almost got 5%.
[56:07.530 --> 56:08.970]  Why didn't he ask for a recount?
[56:09.250 --> 56:11.710]  And I emailed him that, and they never got back.
[56:11.710 --> 56:14.170]  And I think that was pretty just ridiculous.
[56:14.570 --> 56:19.350]  And now I don't think I'll ever even bother again because it's just...
[56:19.350 --> 56:22.430]  That guy should have known he's Mr. Advocate.
[56:22.610 --> 56:23.870]  He didn't even advocate for himself.
[56:24.170 --> 56:26.410]  You're not going to vote for him again because he didn't answer your email?
[56:26.890 --> 56:30.470]  No, because he should have asked for a recount when everybody else was getting a recount.
[56:31.010 --> 56:36.410]  Well, it wasn't a question of just a handful of votes, him not making 5% as far as...
[56:36.410 --> 56:37.370]  Yeah, he almost got 5%.
[56:37.910 --> 56:39.810]  I thought it was more like 3% or something.
[56:39.810 --> 56:40.950]  No, that's the whole point, though.
[56:41.250 --> 56:42.530]  Why didn't he ask for a recount?
[56:43.130 --> 56:44.470]  Everybody else was getting one.
[56:44.650 --> 56:46.510]  Now, this guy was running for president, right?
[56:46.650 --> 56:48.370]  And we threw our votes away on him.
[56:48.890 --> 56:49.950]  He let us down.
[56:50.150 --> 56:51.730]  And he's supposed to be the advocate.
[56:52.250 --> 56:53.250]  What was that all about?
[56:53.350 --> 56:58.170]  Well, I think all kinds of questions here are being raised that we really would need more time to explore.
[56:58.690 --> 57:00.030]  Unfortunately, we're going to have to stop there.
[57:01.430 --> 57:02.510]  That's our show for tonight.
[57:02.730 --> 57:05.770]  And that's it for me for here for a little while.
[57:06.230 --> 57:10.370]  I'll be coming to you from Amsterdam next week.
[57:10.850 --> 57:14.870]  And I'm not sure where the week after that or the week after that or any other of the weeks.
[57:16.010 --> 57:17.310]  But someone will be here.
[57:17.390 --> 57:19.510]  I'm not sure who's going to be here, but somebody will be.
[57:20.470 --> 57:24.630]  And we'll continue to bring you updates as to what's going on.
[57:24.630 --> 57:35.050]  Check www.2600.com for information and email us, OTH at 2600.com, if there's anything you have to say to us.
[57:35.330 --> 57:37.710]  Until then, have yourselves a good night, a good week.
[57:38.370 --> 57:39.310]  We'll see you soon.