[00:03.860 --> 00:10.960]  If that's all... there is.
[00:14.160 --> 00:18.120]  And when I was 12 years old, my daddy took me to the circus.
[00:18.800 --> 00:20.340]  The greatest show on earth.
[00:20.840 --> 00:22.300]  There were clowns...
[00:22.300 --> 00:25.180]  This is WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[00:25.180 --> 00:29.040]  You can hear the rest of the shortcuts later this evening.
[00:29.520 --> 00:35.240]  And right now, it's time for Off the Hook on WBAI New York.
[00:41.070 --> 00:45.390]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:46.470 --> 00:50.930]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:51.650 --> 00:53.550]  I couldn't get much work.
[01:07.550 --> 01:11.290]  And good evening, Happy New Year, and welcome to Off the Hook.
[01:12.130 --> 01:14.050]  We should have a manual online.
[01:14.050 --> 01:14.690]  Are you there, manual?
[01:14.810 --> 01:16.650]  Yes, you should have me online, and I am online.
[01:16.810 --> 01:17.270]  Wonderful.
[01:17.510 --> 01:17.970]  How are you doing?
[01:18.270 --> 01:19.110]  Good, how are you?
[01:19.110 --> 01:20.170]  Pretty good, pretty good.
[01:20.310 --> 01:22.450]  Much better frame of mind than last week, I think.
[01:22.790 --> 01:25.530]  It seems like we've really gotten everything together this week.
[01:25.730 --> 01:32.310]  And thanks to everybody who helped to make the transatlantic telephone connection to me here in Amsterdam.
[01:32.950 --> 01:36.070]  I still actually... I've been to Germany since I talked last week.
[01:36.350 --> 01:39.790]  In fact, you've been to Germany and back since last week, which is pretty amazing.
[01:40.310 --> 01:43.930]  Last week at this time, I believe you were in a blizzard on your way to New York Airport.
[01:44.150 --> 01:47.250]  Everything happened at the same time, so we were all a bit frazzled.
[01:47.830 --> 01:49.850]  But you were in a blizzard trying to get to the airport.
[01:50.030 --> 01:55.930]  You've since come to Germany, been to the Chaos Communications Congress, which is the annual hacker gathering in Berlin.
[01:56.670 --> 01:58.890]  And you're already back in New York, and I'm still here.
[01:59.590 --> 02:00.630]  Yeah, how did that work out?
[02:00.630 --> 02:01.130]  I don't know.
[02:01.270 --> 02:02.130]  You move faster than me.
[02:02.490 --> 02:04.050]  Your name is Flash, after all.
[02:04.950 --> 02:05.430]  Thanks.
[02:06.730 --> 02:08.070]  How was New Year's?
[02:08.130 --> 02:08.910]  That's the first thing I had.
[02:08.910 --> 02:10.950]  Well, it was really amazing.
[02:11.690 --> 02:14.210]  You might want to just refer back to last year's show.
[02:14.530 --> 02:18.730]  I was in Amsterdam for New Year's that year, and it was unbelievable then.
[02:19.710 --> 02:25.950]  Just to make it quick, what happens basically is you walk through the middle of the city.
[02:25.950 --> 02:29.350]  All the streets are jammed with people, totally crowded with people.
[02:29.350 --> 02:39.690]  And there are fireworks, not coming from professionals, not coming from governments, coming from the people, everybody shooting off bottle rockets and throwing firecrackers into the air.
[02:39.870 --> 02:42.730]  And I'll tell you, as an American, it's pretty scary.
[02:42.930 --> 02:46.210]  You're walking down the street, and there's all these explosions, and it's almost like you're in a war.
[02:47.110 --> 02:48.330]  But nobody is scared.
[02:48.470 --> 02:50.150]  I saw babies in strollers.
[02:50.250 --> 02:50.830]  They were calm.
[02:51.830 --> 02:55.230]  I saw little kids, and it was great fun to them.
[02:55.350 --> 02:56.970]  Nobody seemed at all afraid.
[02:58.350 --> 03:03.310]  Honestly, I did not see a single policeman until well after the festivities had ended.
[03:03.410 --> 03:04.170]  Not a single cop.
[03:04.290 --> 03:05.450]  I mean, imagine that in New York.
[03:05.610 --> 03:09.930]  You know, when people gather in Times Square, you see, you know, walls of blue.
[03:10.730 --> 03:12.470]  Here, nothing like that.
[03:12.810 --> 03:16.050]  Just basically a lot of people having fun, a lot of people celebrating.
[03:16.610 --> 03:17.610]  Nobody getting hurt.
[03:17.730 --> 03:18.650]  Nobody being angry.
[03:19.130 --> 03:21.010]  People basically just acting responsible.
[03:21.010 --> 03:25.110]  I think that's kind of the theme when you're in European countries.
[03:26.450 --> 03:33.110]  I don't want to get into my anti-American culture speech here, because I don't think we're that hopeless.
[03:33.330 --> 03:35.190]  But I do think that we're treated like children.
[03:35.430 --> 03:39.650]  I think that we look to the government to take care of us for everything.
[03:39.850 --> 03:44.770]  You know, we have to have big signs that say, ice is slippery, fire is hot.
[03:45.510 --> 03:50.170]  This will hurt you, and we need somebody to make a law to protect us against this from happening.
[03:50.350 --> 03:56.470]  Here, we have people walking up and down really steep staircases, not falling because they know it's dangerous.
[03:56.670 --> 04:04.730]  They're walking down icy sidewalks, not falling because they know it's slippery, shooting firecrackers and fireworks off on New Year's and being responsible about it.
[04:05.070 --> 04:07.750]  And basically, everybody's kind of looking out for each other.
[04:07.750 --> 04:12.230]  It's really, you know, kind of a nice way of dealing with humanity.
[04:13.710 --> 04:17.050]  And when I get back to the States, it's always kind of a threat.
[04:17.210 --> 04:18.970]  You know, you must do it this way or else.
[04:19.270 --> 04:23.370]  And you have, you know, policemen on every corner making sure that you do it the right way.
[04:23.850 --> 04:30.230]  And here you have, you know, policemen driving little compact cars that basically are no match for crowds of people.
[04:31.170 --> 04:35.750]  And they seem to be there mostly to help, not to scare people.
[04:36.390 --> 04:37.870]  I'd like to see us move in that direction.
[04:37.870 --> 04:38.870]  I don't know if we have a will.
[04:39.050 --> 04:43.190]  But it's definitely something that I think everybody should experience at least once.
[04:43.550 --> 04:44.230]  Now, Bernie S.
[04:44.930 --> 04:45.650]  stayed over.
[04:45.810 --> 04:47.650]  He went over to Germany with you.
[04:48.230 --> 04:53.950]  But he actually broke away from the plane, I understand, and ran into the city of Amsterdam on the way back.
[04:54.130 --> 04:57.090]  He got a flight that left this morning, I believe.
[04:59.430 --> 05:01.510]  And he experienced this for the first time.
[05:01.650 --> 05:01.950]  Yeah.
[05:02.010 --> 05:02.950]  Two years in Amsterdam.
[05:03.070 --> 05:04.030]  He had the time of his life.
[05:04.030 --> 05:13.470]  And it was unbelievable, just watching the childlike awe on Bernie S.'s face as he was walking through the streets, seeing all this unfold in front of him.
[05:14.430 --> 05:22.090]  Yeah, I did make the trip back to the airport alone on the train to go catch a flight.
[05:22.250 --> 05:23.610]  And it just wasn't the same.
[05:24.770 --> 05:28.450]  Well, if you're with Bernie S., it's definitely not the same when you're without him.
[05:28.490 --> 05:29.370]  That's certainly true.
[05:30.110 --> 05:32.430]  Now, you guys went to Berlin together.
[05:32.730 --> 05:35.090]  And was it the first time you've been in that city?
[05:35.750 --> 05:36.190]  Yes.
[05:36.450 --> 05:38.550]  That was the first time in Berlin for me.
[05:38.710 --> 05:41.870]  And that means it's also your first time at the Chaos Communications Congress?
[05:42.410 --> 05:43.730]  Yes, it was the first one, yeah.
[05:43.950 --> 05:50.110]  Now, this is an annual hacker event that takes place every December 27th, 28th, and 29th.
[05:50.110 --> 05:53.070]  It's unusual because it's always on the same date, not the same day.
[05:53.330 --> 05:56.950]  This year it worked out very well because those three days happened to be Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
[05:57.470 --> 05:59.570]  So I think they got more people because of that.
[06:00.550 --> 06:07.710]  It's basically a gathering that's been taking place since 1984 of all kinds of German hackers and people from around the world.
[06:07.790 --> 06:14.510]  They always say they're going to do a lot in English, but I think we experienced something quite the opposite, wouldn't you say?
[06:14.510 --> 06:15.930]  Yeah, there was some.
[06:16.390 --> 06:17.670]  It just... there could have been more.
[06:17.750 --> 06:20.470]  It would have been nicer if there were more that we could have appreciated.
[06:20.470 --> 06:22.810]  I know we probably missed a lot.
[06:23.050 --> 06:28.770]  Yeah, but even not knowing the language, we still got an awful lot out of it.
[06:28.830 --> 06:34.450]  Just by talking to people, just by playing with computers, seeing technology, seeing some films.
[06:34.810 --> 06:53.690]  There was a great documentary on the Blinking Lights Project, which we featured on this show a couple of months ago, where the Chaos Computer Club took over a building in Paris, with the building's permission, of course, and had all kinds of images on the building,
[06:53.690 --> 06:59.730]  just like they did a year ago in Berlin, where they had regular on-off lights.
[06:59.730 --> 07:02.570]  This one had shades of color as well.
[07:02.710 --> 07:04.050]  Actually, this is shades of gray.
[07:04.170 --> 07:04.730]  Shades of gray.
[07:04.830 --> 07:05.570]  Shades of color.
[07:05.730 --> 07:07.370]  Color, I think, is coming up at some point.
[07:09.290 --> 07:17.050]  Yeah, the building that they used was the National Bibliotheque, where they keep a lot of their treasures.
[07:17.470 --> 07:21.530]  There were hackers on every floor in the one corner of the building.
[07:21.910 --> 07:22.390]  That's right.
[07:22.390 --> 07:26.470]  And there was some kind of a ghost in the machine on the fifth floor, from what we've been told.
[07:26.690 --> 07:28.630]  It was always malfunctioning on the fifth floor.
[07:29.270 --> 07:30.890]  It was really unbelievable.
[07:31.050 --> 07:40.970]  I wish I had been there over the summer to see that, with just the magic of all kinds of ASCII art and animated GIFs showing up on the side of a building in a major city.
[07:41.130 --> 07:43.910]  I hope one day we'll see something like that somewhere in the United States.
[07:43.910 --> 07:46.250]  I'm sure we can pull this off.
[07:46.410 --> 07:53.950]  But, you know, when I hang out over there, every year when I hang out with the German hackers, it just seems like they get things done.
[07:54.130 --> 07:56.050]  They really know how to get things done.
[07:56.050 --> 07:59.910]  And it's frustrating, because we've been involved in several conferences.
[07:59.910 --> 08:03.150]  And I'm not at all putting down people who work on these conferences.
[08:03.210 --> 08:05.890]  It's just that they are extremely overworked.
[08:05.970 --> 08:07.630]  They have to do so much.
[08:07.910 --> 08:21.310]  And it just seems to be less, as far as the number of people who come together and pool their resources, without asking for a single thing in return, just doing it because they want to do something collectively and make something great.
[08:22.290 --> 08:30.790]  I see too many people in our country just completely overworked and frazzled and thwarted, really, in their attempts to make something work properly.
[08:31.030 --> 08:40.170]  You know, all kinds of fights over, you know, Linux versus FreeBSD or whatever, instead of actually putting your heads together and just getting it done in the first place.
[08:40.350 --> 08:44.270]  I see... this is the third Chaos Communications Congress I've been to in a row, actually.
[08:44.510 --> 08:51.190]  And every year I see just the tremendous togetherness of the people just to make it work.
[08:51.310 --> 08:52.310]  just to make it happen.
[08:52.550 --> 08:55.070]  And I don't see one person who is working too hard.
[08:55.150 --> 08:56.590]  I see a lot of people working very hard.
[08:56.890 --> 08:58.650]  But they all come together.
[08:58.750 --> 08:59.370]  They all help out.
[08:59.550 --> 09:00.630]  There's never any problems.
[09:00.970 --> 09:01.650]  One thing...
[09:01.650 --> 09:02.130]  Yeah, but wait, wait.
[09:02.210 --> 09:03.790]  We do have to do the math on this.
[09:03.850 --> 09:07.730]  We have to realize, A, just in chronological time, we're 10 years behind.
[09:08.110 --> 09:10.150]  And, B, we do it...
[09:10.150 --> 09:11.710]  Well, it used to be every four years.
[09:12.330 --> 09:13.790]  They've been doing it each year.
[09:13.910 --> 09:20.130]  So they do have kind of a jump on us just in the amount of times that they've done it and over the course of time.
[09:20.130 --> 09:22.250]  So that has to be an advantage.
[09:22.610 --> 09:23.070]  Yeah, Jeff.
[09:23.210 --> 09:25.550]  I mean, you're referring to the Hope Conferences.
[09:25.750 --> 09:27.830]  And actually, we have been doing it every three years.
[09:28.050 --> 09:30.730]  1994, 1997, and then 2000.
[09:30.910 --> 09:32.170]  And now we're doing them every two years.
[09:32.310 --> 09:33.850]  We're trying to do them every two years.
[09:34.010 --> 09:34.950]  It's very difficult.
[09:35.250 --> 09:36.050]  It's very expensive.
[09:37.150 --> 09:38.610]  It's very hard work.
[09:40.010 --> 09:40.410]  But...
[09:40.410 --> 09:44.610]  They do have some advantages in the cost for the buildings and things that they get.
[09:44.910 --> 09:46.710]  But I'm not just referring to our conferences.
[09:46.710 --> 09:51.170]  I'm referring to conferences in general, conferences in general that have occurred throughout the United States.
[09:52.410 --> 10:01.630]  I think everybody should venture over to one of the ones over here in Europe just to see how coordinated it is and how there's so little in the way of problems.
[10:01.890 --> 10:05.870]  I mean, yeah, we have so many different cultural things going on at a conference like this.
[10:05.870 --> 10:10.790]  You have people, you know, openly walking around, drinking beer, no problem at all.
[10:10.790 --> 10:13.250]  You know, it's just... it's a cultural thing.
[10:13.410 --> 10:15.010]  It's a loud...
[10:15.010 --> 10:16.050]  Even on the subway.
[10:16.290 --> 10:17.050]  Even on the subway.
[10:17.330 --> 10:17.990]  And, of course, dogs.
[10:18.030 --> 10:19.130]  You can bring dogs on the subway.
[10:19.290 --> 10:25.550]  And even the dogs are better behaved than dogs would be if you suddenly brought them onto the New York City subway.
[10:25.750 --> 10:31.690]  I mean, you know, maybe over time, you would have better behaved dogs on New York City subways.
[10:31.750 --> 10:35.670]  But I think at first, there would be a lot of barking and, you know, chasing and things like that going on.
[10:35.670 --> 10:43.670]  And I think it's funny that in the subways of New York, you know, the stench of urine is very pervasive, but there are no dogs allowed.
[10:43.850 --> 10:47.410]  In the subways of Europe, there are dogs allowed, but there's no smell of urine.
[10:47.510 --> 10:48.510]  Now, what does that say?
[10:49.410 --> 10:50.770]  No, I understand.
[10:51.010 --> 10:56.030]  But there are quite a few differences that we could draw between the two different...
[10:56.670 --> 10:59.570]  the New York City subway system and the U-Bahn.
[11:01.490 --> 11:02.090]  You okay?
[11:02.490 --> 11:03.150]  Oh, I'm fine, yes.
[11:03.230 --> 11:04.610]  I tried to cover the mouthpiece for that.
[11:04.870 --> 11:05.230]  It didn't work.
[11:06.270 --> 11:10.550]  But, you know, there's one other thing that was... that really kind of shocked me.
[11:11.150 --> 11:16.950]  There was a coat check downstairs at the Hacker Conference where people just, you know, checked their valuables, their coats, whatever.
[11:17.730 --> 11:18.830]  And it was nighttime.
[11:19.070 --> 11:22.410]  And I went down there at nighttime, and there was nobody there.
[11:22.750 --> 11:24.130]  And I met one person on the staircase.
[11:24.290 --> 11:25.250]  I said, no, just leave your coat there.
[11:25.310 --> 11:26.090]  Nobody's going to take it.
[11:26.550 --> 11:29.950]  And, you know, being an American, I couldn't really fathom that.
[11:30.710 --> 11:34.790]  Here are all these, you know, literally thousands of people, about 3,000 people in a building.
[11:35.650 --> 11:39.750]  And, in fact, people could walk in off the street and get to the coat check before they got to the conference.
[11:39.750 --> 11:46.670]  So this person expected me to leave my coat in there and just assume that nobody was going to take it.
[11:46.870 --> 11:48.530]  And to them, it was the most natural thing in the world.
[11:48.570 --> 11:50.150]  Of course nobody's going to take your coat.
[11:50.310 --> 11:51.470]  You know, nobody would do such a thing.
[11:51.930 --> 11:54.250]  And, you know, hours later, my coat was untouched.
[11:54.750 --> 11:55.950]  There was money on the table.
[11:56.070 --> 11:56.850]  Nobody touched that.
[11:56.850 --> 11:58.950]  There are major cultural differences.
[12:00.030 --> 12:03.870]  And I don't think, you know, the United States is in a hopeless situation.
[12:03.870 --> 12:08.010]  I just think we have to take a good look at how people do things better.
[12:08.170 --> 12:14.250]  I know people get very defensive when I give one of these little sermons on how I think things work better over here.
[12:15.510 --> 12:20.890]  I think there's a lot of potential in the States, but we have to get over some things, some problems.
[12:21.370 --> 12:27.650]  We have to just get over the attitude that, you know, people are bad and they must be, you know, punished all the time.
[12:27.650 --> 12:34.450]  And I think we have to look towards the positive parts of human nature and work with that and just try to make things better.
[12:34.570 --> 12:37.130]  And I really hope to see that in years ahead.
[12:37.370 --> 12:50.550]  Now, one thing that really bothers me that came out of this conference, and actually I've been noticing this for a couple of years, is the fear, the fear factor of Europeans when it comes to visiting America.
[12:50.550 --> 12:58.470]  America, so many people said to us over the time we were there, I want to come to your next conference, but I'm afraid to come to the United States.
[12:58.470 --> 13:06.290]  I'm afraid of being arrested for violating the DMCA or for doing something that would be considered criminal or just being harassed in general for being a foreigner.
[13:07.630 --> 13:09.230]  Well, they saw what happened to Dimitri.
[13:09.590 --> 13:13.190]  Of course, people saw what happened to Dimitri, but, you know, there's a flip side to that.
[13:13.270 --> 13:19.210]  Yes, Dimitri went to hell, but in the end, in front of a jury, he was acquitted.
[13:19.210 --> 13:21.050]  Or he wasn't acquitted, but the company was.
[13:21.630 --> 13:23.150]  And it was an important fight.
[13:23.570 --> 13:25.550]  And there are going to be more fights like that.
[13:25.890 --> 13:37.290]  What I believe the message should be is that if we believe in something, if we feel strongly about what we do, it does involve some kind of a sacrifice, some kind of a risk.
[13:37.690 --> 13:42.610]  And yes, you know, it can be very unpleasant, but the alternative is to not do it.
[13:42.950 --> 13:45.710]  And that's defeat, no matter how you look at it.
[13:45.710 --> 13:55.630]  And so it's absolutely essential that we band together and get as many people to come over here and do their thing and not be afraid.
[13:55.630 --> 13:57.850]  And we have to support people when they do that.
[13:58.070 --> 14:04.470]  Because I'll tell you, if we don't get people from other parts of the world to come to future health conferences, it's not going to be any fun.
[14:04.610 --> 14:07.850]  It's not going to be something that's going to be very educational at all.
[14:07.970 --> 14:10.630]  There's so much we learn from the people in other parts of the world.
[14:10.630 --> 14:13.710]  And, you know, I understand the fear factor.
[14:13.830 --> 14:15.570]  I understand why people are hesitant.
[14:15.770 --> 14:24.110]  But never before has it been so important to stand up and do what you believe in and spread the information and teach people what you know.
[14:24.270 --> 14:26.550]  Otherwise, we'll lose this and we'll lose it forever.
[14:26.550 --> 14:32.190]  Because once people get accustomed to not speaking, it's very easy to stay in that mode.
[14:32.890 --> 14:33.290]  But...
[14:33.290 --> 14:33.930]  Sure.
[14:34.970 --> 14:37.810]  And I did try to talk to them as well when we mentioned that.
[14:37.910 --> 14:41.810]  And I said, but do you realize if something did happen, you'd have your name on T-shirts everywhere?
[14:43.430 --> 14:45.470]  Yes, and websites and all kinds of things like that.
[14:46.010 --> 14:46.410]  Absolutely.
[14:46.770 --> 14:49.190]  So a whole movement could be started.
[14:49.410 --> 14:57.410]  Speaking of movements, Kevin Mitnick will be officially freed, meaning that he will be off supervised release in just a few weeks now.
[14:57.490 --> 14:59.350]  January 20th, I believe, is the magic day.
[14:59.350 --> 15:03.590]  Anyway, the Kevin Mitnick Liberation Tour begins next week.
[15:03.730 --> 15:23.790]  And that basically means that me and other people will be traveling cross-country again in a rental car, filming various things along the way, and ultimately filming Kevin Mitnick as he gets onto the Internet for the first time in many years and actually experiences his first full day of freedom since 1988,
[15:23.790 --> 15:24.550]  I believe.
[15:25.190 --> 15:27.190]  So that should be quite an event.
[15:27.190 --> 15:30.910]  Of course, we're filming this for the DVD release of Freedom Downtime.
[15:31.690 --> 15:37.930]  And of course, the DVD release of Freedom Downtime is funded by sales of the DHS release of Freedom Downtime.
[15:38.070 --> 15:38.650]  So please...
[15:38.650 --> 15:41.610]  Which we have to see again at the CCC Congress.
[15:42.010 --> 15:42.650]  That's right.
[15:42.770 --> 15:43.490]  Somebody was playing.
[15:43.570 --> 15:54.750]  I believe you gave a cassette copy to one of the organizers, and next thing we knew, it was being played on the big screen at the former Communist Youth Hall or whatever that place is called.
[15:55.850 --> 15:56.830]  I mean, you've never been there before.
[15:57.030 --> 15:58.810]  Is that not a majestical building?
[15:59.270 --> 16:00.310]  It was...
[16:00.310 --> 16:03.370]  First of all, I'm a big fan of the Bauhaus architecture.
[16:03.650 --> 16:05.550]  So Berlin in itself was filled with that.
[16:05.550 --> 16:09.910]  That building was gorgeous from the outside, functional from the inside.
[16:12.050 --> 16:12.730]  Bernie S.
[16:12.830 --> 16:19.770]  and I were both amazed at just how the auditorium was set up where you could pull a desk out from the seat in front of you.
[16:19.950 --> 16:28.270]  You had the air conditioning coming through the seat so the seat could be cooled as well as, you know, it being used to ventilate the room.
[16:28.730 --> 16:31.950]  The whole design theory over there is marvelous.
[16:32.670 --> 16:34.470]  The structure was...
[16:34.470 --> 16:41.430]  Even the cafeteria, all the glass had had nice fused glass work done on it.
[16:41.710 --> 16:43.370]  It's a shame they're going to tear the building down.
[16:43.590 --> 16:46.750]  Yeah, that's a bit of sad news that we have to report, actually.
[16:46.950 --> 16:52.970]  And, you know, I'm very glad that you were there this year to see that because you appreciate these things and can point out a lot of things that I would otherwise miss.
[16:53.310 --> 16:56.650]  But the architecture, yes, it is unique.
[16:56.650 --> 16:58.750]  You might say it's kind of drab in some ways.
[16:59.090 --> 17:02.270]  It's, you know, Eastern European type of architecture.
[17:02.730 --> 17:06.270]  And, of course, all this takes place in what was known as East Berlin.
[17:06.970 --> 17:09.750]  But, yes, they will be tearing down the building from what we've been told.
[17:10.450 --> 17:13.170]  And, of course, that means the conference can't be there again next year.
[17:13.230 --> 17:15.230]  This is the last conference at that space.
[17:15.230 --> 17:26.410]  But the good news is that the conference will be at the building, the original Blinking Lights building, which is right smack in the middle of Alexanderplatz, which was the main square of East Berlin.
[17:27.390 --> 17:30.070]  And that's going to be kind of cool because that's a big building.
[17:30.290 --> 17:31.970]  It's visible to many people.
[17:32.110 --> 17:33.310]  It's easily accessible.
[17:33.830 --> 17:36.270]  And I imagine the blinking lights will be turned back on.
[17:36.290 --> 17:37.410]  So it'll be a lot of fun.
[17:37.890 --> 17:39.270]  Yeah, it should be exciting.
[17:39.430 --> 17:40.210]  I'm looking forward to it.
[17:40.410 --> 17:49.150]  And one other bit of rather dramatic news is that the official Chaos Communications Camp has been announced for...
[17:49.150 --> 17:50.430]  Well, it's not next year anymore.
[17:50.430 --> 17:50.990]  It's this year.
[17:51.110 --> 17:51.990]  It's 2003 now.
[17:52.930 --> 17:55.050]  And that will be taking place tentatively.
[17:55.250 --> 17:58.690]  The dates are July 31st, August 1st, and August 2nd.
[17:59.110 --> 18:00.350]  And August 3rd, I believe.
[18:00.530 --> 18:01.390]  Yeah, it's a four-day event.
[18:01.910 --> 18:03.710]  And that will be taking place in Germany.
[18:03.890 --> 18:09.610]  It's a camp type of a setting where all kinds of hacking things will be discussed.
[18:09.870 --> 18:10.770]  Similar to Howe.
[18:11.110 --> 18:13.670]  Very similar to Howe, except with a German flavor.
[18:14.250 --> 18:17.150]  And it's something that I'm definitely going to be at.
[18:17.290 --> 18:19.970]  And I think a lot of other people are going to be going as well.
[18:20.250 --> 18:23.650]  Now, again, you know, it's probably going to be mostly in German.
[18:23.990 --> 18:25.890]  I hope there'll be more English things.
[18:25.930 --> 18:34.310]  I think because this is a once-every-sever-year type of event, there will be more of an emphasis on the English speakers, especially if we bring a lot of people over from the States.
[18:35.150 --> 18:42.570]  But I strongly suggest, and I do this not just, you know, for this, but in general, I strongly suggest people travel.
[18:42.790 --> 18:47.550]  People get out of their shells, get out of their homes, and just wander around a little bit.
[18:47.710 --> 18:48.730]  Take in some scenery.
[18:48.890 --> 18:50.010]  Take in some different culture.
[18:50.410 --> 18:54.490]  Believe me, when you come back, you will feel different about lots of things.
[18:54.490 --> 18:55.390]  You will feel inspired.
[18:55.670 --> 19:01.590]  And that undoubtedly is the feeling you'll get if you go to that camp this summer coming up.
[19:01.590 --> 19:09.090]  So that's the major event for the summer as far as hacking conferences and things like that.
[19:10.030 --> 19:11.510]  We'll announce more on it.
[19:11.590 --> 19:15.630]  But tentatively right now, it's July 31st, August 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
[19:16.510 --> 19:17.990]  I'm not sure where in Germany.
[19:18.190 --> 19:18.890]  Check our website.
[19:18.890 --> 19:21.350]  I'm sure we'll have information on it very, very soon.
[19:21.550 --> 19:24.950]  Yeah, and they did say that by March they should have that firmed up.
[19:25.310 --> 19:26.030]  By March.
[19:26.130 --> 19:28.630]  Okay, hopefully before then because some people have to make travel plans.
[19:28.630 --> 19:32.490]  But we'll definitely post information as we get it.
[19:33.090 --> 19:34.530]  Speaking of dates, it's kind of interesting.
[19:34.710 --> 19:37.770]  Over here, it's about 1.30 in the morning.
[19:38.350 --> 19:46.410]  But I was looking at my calendar and I noticed today's date, at least in American terminology, is 010203.
[19:47.410 --> 19:51.870]  Which means that in a few hours, you guys are going to get that and you can celebrate 010203.
[19:52.550 --> 20:03.830]  Here in Europe, of course, and I don't know how people get more confused with this than they do, but it's actually 020103 because they put the date, the day of the month, before the month.
[20:04.610 --> 20:05.090]  Yeah.
[20:05.410 --> 20:07.850]  Listen, I think we may have Bernie S.
[20:08.150 --> 20:09.310]  trying to get through.
[20:09.530 --> 20:10.090]  Bernie S.
[20:10.150 --> 20:11.370]  Okay, let's put Bernie S.
[20:11.390 --> 20:11.510]  on.
[20:11.710 --> 20:12.510]  Let's see if we can get him.
[20:21.600 --> 20:22.080]  Bernie?
[20:23.140 --> 20:23.620]  Bernie?
[20:23.640 --> 20:23.960]  Yes.
[20:24.840 --> 20:25.320]  Hello?
[20:25.980 --> 20:26.780]  Is that Bernie?
[20:27.860 --> 20:29.420]  Yeah, but he's...
[20:29.420 --> 20:29.980]  Okay, good.
[20:30.460 --> 20:31.600]  Bernie S., where are you?
[20:34.200 --> 20:34.980]  Say it again.
[20:35.940 --> 20:37.220]  Just past Scotland.
[20:37.980 --> 20:38.120]  What?
[20:38.900 --> 20:40.380]  You just passed Scotland?
[20:41.140 --> 20:42.480]  I just passed Scotland.
[20:42.800 --> 20:44.380]  What are you in, exactly?
[20:45.280 --> 20:47.500]  I'm in a 747-400.
[20:47.860 --> 20:49.140]  You're supposed to be here.
[20:49.460 --> 20:53.060]  Bernie, you were supposed to land about 4 o'clock this afternoon.
[20:53.220 --> 20:53.900]  What in the world happened?
[20:54.860 --> 20:57.060]  Well, there was a problem with the steering.
[20:58.520 --> 21:03.900]  And the first plane I was in, I had to make a U-turn over Scotland again.
[21:03.900 --> 21:04.900]  I'm back where I started.
[21:05.060 --> 21:09.860]  We had to turn around over Scotland, dump almost all of our fuel into the North Sea.
[21:11.040 --> 21:16.680]  And by the time we got back to the Schiphol airport in Amsterdam, there were four fire engines waiting on the runway for us.
[21:17.640 --> 21:20.920]  Then it took them a few hours to find another plane to get me on.
[21:21.820 --> 21:22.680]  Oh, my goodness.
[21:23.400 --> 21:24.480]  It's been a long day.
[21:24.480 --> 21:25.540]  Yeah, I can imagine.
[21:25.660 --> 21:29.040]  Especially, you got almost no sleep last night after all the festivities in Amsterdam.
[21:29.700 --> 21:32.140]  Well, this is almost as exciting as New Year's Eve in Amsterdam.
[21:32.380 --> 21:33.100]  I can imagine.
[21:33.240 --> 21:33.980]  Well, now, wait.
[21:34.000 --> 21:36.360]  What's it like when you're on an airplane that dumps all its fuel?
[21:36.460 --> 21:37.500]  What exactly happens?
[21:37.640 --> 21:38.540]  How did they announce that?
[21:39.240 --> 21:41.060]  Well, they didn't announce that until we landed.
[21:41.220 --> 21:51.160]  Although, you know, a lot of times when you're on an aircraft, a commercial aircraft, they have a video thing that shows you where the plane is and the height, the altitude and the airspeed and all that sort of thing.
[21:51.320 --> 21:51.600]  Uh-huh.
[21:52.660 --> 21:56.660]  Well, they turned all that off just before they announced that there were problems.
[21:58.180 --> 21:59.800]  And then they said they were going to turn around.
[21:59.800 --> 22:03.980]  But I didn't feel the plane banking at all for quite a while.
[22:04.640 --> 22:07.240]  So I have a feeling we weren't being told the whole story.
[22:08.080 --> 22:08.180]  Wow.
[22:08.180 --> 22:16.840]  And then it wasn't until we landed that I talked to somebody on the ground crew who told me that they had to dump almost all the fuel into the North Sea.
[22:17.060 --> 22:19.760]  It's like thousands and thousands of pounds of jet fuel.
[22:20.420 --> 22:24.020]  You can't land one of these 747s full of fuel.
[22:24.020 --> 22:24.580]  They're too heavy.
[22:24.700 --> 22:25.560]  They'll drop like a stone.
[22:25.800 --> 22:26.240]  Uh-huh.
[22:27.080 --> 22:28.580]  So they have to land them light.
[22:28.820 --> 22:31.740]  Anyway, I'd rather talk about the CCC Congress.
[22:32.200 --> 22:33.220]  Well, okay.
[22:33.460 --> 22:34.320]  I will do that.
[22:34.400 --> 22:39.520]  But this just fascinates me because I've never actually talked to somebody who's been in an airplane while the fuel's been dumped.
[22:40.840 --> 22:42.740]  I mean, did you feel anything when it happened?
[22:43.020 --> 22:44.360]  Or any kind of a noise?
[22:44.540 --> 22:44.700]  Yeah.
[22:45.000 --> 22:46.900]  It kind of feels like it took a big dump.
[22:47.260 --> 22:48.000]  Oh, boy.
[22:49.560 --> 22:54.160]  And imagine the poor fishermen on the North Sea that all of a sudden have all this fuel fall on them.
[22:54.820 --> 22:55.840]  I wondered about this.
[22:55.900 --> 22:57.680]  This is literally thousands of pounds of fuel.
[22:57.800 --> 22:59.820]  But you're up so high, I guess by then it dissipates.
[22:59.900 --> 23:04.500]  But it can't be very good when you drop thousands of pounds of jet fuel into the ocean.
[23:05.940 --> 23:09.100]  I guess they dump the toilets and everything else into the ocean, too.
[23:09.260 --> 23:10.580]  So I guess, whatever.
[23:11.020 --> 23:13.980]  Bernie, what was the mood of the people on the airplane while this was going on?
[23:15.020 --> 23:19.520]  People were kind of nervous, but the flight crew wasn't really telling people anything.
[23:19.800 --> 23:32.500]  So I think if they had the video thing up showing that the plane was making a U-turn and that the altitude was dropping more rapidly than it would normally have and all that sort of thing, I think people would have gotten more upset, which is probably why they turned it all off.
[23:33.140 --> 23:40.940]  So I was talking to some of my fellow passengers about off the hook and how the show is about technology and how people aren't...
[23:41.600 --> 23:46.980]  Generally, people aren't always informed about technology because people who control it aren't telling them about it.
[23:47.100 --> 23:54.680]  And I said, this is a classic example of people aren't being informed about the technology that they're dependent upon and it can really affect them.
[23:54.840 --> 23:56.800]  I'm so glad you live to tell this story.
[23:56.920 --> 23:58.560]  It's quite a frightening thing.
[23:59.440 --> 24:04.720]  Well, if anybody wants to research this, they can look up KLM flight...
[24:06.040 --> 24:07.420]  Which flight was this here?
[24:07.460 --> 24:13.740]  KLM flight 643 and they'll see some pretty interesting history on that flight today leaving...
[24:13.740 --> 24:14.860]  That's departing Amsterdam.
[24:16.320 --> 24:18.440]  This was on January 1st it departed, right?
[24:19.340 --> 24:20.020]  That's correct.
[24:20.200 --> 24:22.580]  And I think they called this flight the same flight number.
[24:22.680 --> 24:25.520]  They just passed the flight number over to this plane.
[24:26.060 --> 24:30.640]  So if anybody at home is online now they can look up flight 643 and see where I am.
[24:30.700 --> 24:33.200]  I don't even know exactly where I am if they turned off the video.
[24:33.760 --> 24:36.080]  So maybe somebody could tell me where I am by looking up the plane.
[24:36.840 --> 24:39.920]  If you go to KLM.com you can find out where the planes are.
[24:40.840 --> 24:49.620]  And I'd love to know maybe it's been reported someplace too in a news network someplace that this happened because they usually tell you when airplanes dump all the fuel and turn around and make emergency landings.
[24:49.720 --> 24:50.040]  Oh really?
[24:50.180 --> 24:51.220]  Well maybe I'll hear about this then.
[24:51.300 --> 24:52.960]  I kind of think they like to keep this stuff under wraps.
[24:53.120 --> 24:54.860]  Anyhow, this is not why I'm calling it.
[24:54.920 --> 25:00.000]  Let's talk about a fascinating conference and an interesting experience at Amsterdam.
[25:00.500 --> 25:02.500]  Okay, we talked about the conference a bit.
[25:02.540 --> 25:06.400]  If you have any specific types of recollections of the conference go right ahead.
[25:06.780 --> 25:08.320]  We haven't talked about Amsterdam as much.
[25:09.580 --> 25:15.000]  Well there were as you know a lot of this stuff was in German so we couldn't understand a lot of the panel discussions.
[25:15.980 --> 25:18.680]  But there were several that I thought were pretty good.
[25:19.180 --> 25:48.040]  A woman named Jaya Baloo did a fascinating panel discussion which I don't think you sat in on on the legal IP interception which is about how in Europe all the various law enforcement agencies have passed laws or are following or enforcing laws on internet service providers to log traffic and to provide access to law enforcement to customer traffic on the internet.
[25:48.440 --> 25:50.780]  And it was a very good panel discussion.
[25:51.460 --> 25:57.320]  You can look it up on the CCC website about I get a link to this person's website.
[25:57.500 --> 26:07.200]  But it looks like privacy in Europe as far as the internet goes is basically dead unless you're using encryption and then they can still use traffic analysis to find out who you're communicating with.
[26:07.600 --> 26:30.520]  One of the recommendations by the person on the panel was to use an anonymizer and actually stack several proxy servers up so that you can at least make it more difficult for the people spying on your internet activity to see what you're doing.
[26:31.180 --> 26:45.240]  That's one thing at the conference that I was very heartened with was the fact that for every instance of privacy restriction or privacy invasion that's taking place, there's somebody thinking of a way to defeat it, a way to maintain privacy.
[26:46.520 --> 26:50.220]  And there's more of a need than that forever now as far as I'm concerned.
[26:50.300 --> 26:51.680]  There was another really good panel discussion.
[26:52.180 --> 26:55.440]  I know Jeff sat in on that, how to find anything on the web.
[26:55.740 --> 26:57.440]  Yeah, that was quite good.
[26:58.160 --> 26:59.000]  That was really good.
[26:59.120 --> 27:07.440]  There's a web page this guy set up who did the Frenchman who did the presentation in English fortunately with a heavy French accent.
[27:07.980 --> 27:38.420]  If you go to www.searchlores.com That's S-E-A-R-C-H-L-O-R-E-S .org I was wrong it's not .com it's searchlores.org slash Berlin as in Berlin Germany B-E-R-L-I-N .H-T-M There's a fascinating page on several pages on how to find anything on the web and one of the things he said is very good search engines like Google really only cover about a third of the world wide web.
[27:38.960 --> 27:57.460]  There's a vast amount of stuff on the web that really is out of range from many search engines and there's a lot of good techniques on that site that there's no time to go into on the radio about how to find stuff on the internet that you would be amazed you just can't find with normal search engines so listeners might want to check out searchlores.org And you mentioned the CCC site of course that
[27:57.460 --> 28:22.940]  site being ccc.de And you probably mentioned the Blinken Lights panel discussion that was pretty good Yes well of course it was totally in German but the film was in English and the film was very entertaining and we're going to get a copy of that and hopefully show it at the next POPE conference There was a workshop on constructing your own low-power FM transmitter and there were about a dozen
[28:22.940 --> 28:43.160]  people actually building one-watt FM broadcast band transmitters there and they'll be taking them home and setting up low-power radio stations in their neighborhoods so that was heartening Now that's something I wanted to talk to you about Bernie because as you know I'm embarking on a I think it's going to be a four-week cross-country tour from the Kevin Midnick Liberation Tour,
[28:43.220 --> 28:44.040]  that's what we're calling it.
[28:44.380 --> 28:52.140]  And I have an iPod that has 40 gigs of music on it, but no way to plug into the CD player, which is in the rental car.
[28:52.520 --> 29:03.060]  So we may need to build or have a one-watt transmitter to transmit the signal from the iPod to the car radio so we can listen to all kinds of music all the way over.
[29:03.180 --> 29:09.680]  Well, unless the iPod is about a mile away from the radio, you're not going to need a watt.
[29:09.820 --> 29:11.080]  That's huge overkill.
[29:11.220 --> 29:17.980]  You could get by with, like, 10 or 20 milliwatts to get a few feet away to the car radio.
[29:18.180 --> 29:23.560]  There's a company called C-Crane, which has some really excellent radio products, including shortwave radios.
[29:24.700 --> 29:26.200]  C-Crane.com.
[29:26.300 --> 29:29.140]  That's C-C-R-A-N-E.com.
[29:29.280 --> 29:32.860]  They sell a miniature FM broadcast transmitter.
[29:32.920 --> 29:35.740]  It's only about 100 milliwatts, but it's a really nice design.
[29:35.740 --> 29:41.080]  They designed it and had it made by a company called Sanjian, which makes good shortwave receivers.
[29:42.100 --> 29:43.680]  It has digital tuning.
[29:43.800 --> 29:47.420]  You can select what frequency on the FM broadcast band you want with an LCD display.
[29:48.020 --> 29:56.000]  And it's got a little whip antenna that pulls up, and it just plugs into the headphone jack on your iPod or any other kind of consumer audio product.
[29:56.220 --> 30:04.660]  And it'll transmit an FM signal, you know, far enough away, at least if you're in a vehicle like the 2600 band, you have no problem picking it up on the car radio.
[30:05.140 --> 30:06.720]  So that may be your solution.
[30:06.740 --> 30:08.980]  I have one of those things I can lend it to you for the trip, if you'd like.
[30:09.440 --> 30:11.040]  Yeah, then we'll stop down there in Philadelphia.
[30:11.200 --> 30:16.240]  In fact, I think the first part of our journey will take us through Philadelphia and down into the southern part of the United States.
[30:16.920 --> 30:28.820]  And if anybody wants to meet up or do something along the way, please email us at the addresses downtime, as in freedomdowntime, at 2600.com.
[30:28.820 --> 30:33.740]  We'll try to coordinate, maybe passing through some 2600 meeting sites or whatever.
[30:34.780 --> 30:35.600]  Again, it starts next week.
[30:35.600 --> 30:47.120]  It might be interesting for listeners, if there was a map on the 2600.com website showing the location of the 2600 van as it goes through the Kevin Midnick Liberation Tour.
[30:47.440 --> 30:53.180]  You know, and if we were in Germany, that would be so easy to coordinate because we'd have all these people doing this.
[30:53.300 --> 30:56.580]  I know in the United States it's going to be almost impossible to even get a net connection.
[30:56.580 --> 30:57.960]  But we'll try.
[30:58.080 --> 31:00.720]  We'll try to do the best we can in our limited abilities.
[31:01.520 --> 31:10.960]  I'm standing here in this 747 jet looking at an emergency exit door, and there's a big sign that says, Worldwide KLM Reliability.
[31:13.000 --> 31:17.480]  Now, Bernie, do you mean you're walking around the cabin talking on the phone right now?
[31:18.220 --> 31:27.160]  Actually, this particular piece of equipment, a 747-400, doesn't have the newer phones that are in each seat handle, armrest.
[31:27.480 --> 31:31.920]  These are phones you have to get up over near the bathroom and use.
[31:32.300 --> 31:32.740]  Oh.
[31:34.220 --> 31:39.160]  So you have all kinds of people pushing past you to get to the restroom.
[31:39.560 --> 31:40.780]  Actually, it's not too bad.
[31:41.200 --> 31:43.660]  People are just kind of tired, so they're all sitting down.
[31:43.660 --> 31:50.280]  This particular phone is an Aircom satellite phone, which is apparently run by France Telecom.
[31:52.540 --> 32:03.320]  And it says here the model number is Telstra Corporation KLM4-200017-00R2.
[32:03.800 --> 32:05.440]  There's a couple other numbers after that.
[32:05.540 --> 32:06.800]  I'm trying to find out...
[32:06.800 --> 32:13.680]  Jeff, when I called you on your cell phone just before the show to say I'd be calling in about 20 after the hour, did any caller ID information come up on your phone?
[32:13.880 --> 32:14.540]  No, none at all.
[32:15.580 --> 32:16.640]  What, did it just say no ID?
[32:16.920 --> 32:18.000]  No, like a restricted number.
[32:19.160 --> 32:20.100]  But you got a restricted number?
[32:21.400 --> 32:23.500]  Well, that's different than no number at all.
[32:23.880 --> 32:24.560]  I'm sorry.
[32:25.040 --> 32:28.160]  But there was alpha, no numeric.
[32:28.960 --> 32:30.000]  What did the alpha say?
[32:31.160 --> 32:31.560]  Restricted.
[32:32.700 --> 32:33.440]  Oh, oh, okay.
[32:35.620 --> 32:40.260]  Jeff, when you get a call that doesn't have caller ID, does it say restricted or does it say not available or something?
[32:40.260 --> 32:42.740]  It does say restricted number.
[32:43.260 --> 32:44.080]  Those are the words.
[32:44.400 --> 32:45.840]  It says restricted number no matter what?
[32:46.140 --> 32:46.340]  Yeah.
[32:46.840 --> 32:49.180]  Okay, well then it probably wasn't available.
[32:50.460 --> 32:53.960]  Because my Scrimpies S phone never says restricted ID.
[32:54.100 --> 32:55.040]  It just says no ID.
[32:57.020 --> 32:58.340]  I use Verizon.
[32:58.520 --> 33:00.040]  They have a different system or set up.
[33:00.040 --> 33:01.360]  The GSM phone I have...
[33:01.360 --> 33:06.160]  By the way, it's great to have a GSM phone that works both in the United States and in Europe.
[33:06.560 --> 33:10.160]  You simply switch to a different frequency and it works just the same.
[33:10.260 --> 33:14.800]  The only problem, the only drawback is it costs a dollar a minute to talk on it, which is why I'm not talking on it now.
[33:15.460 --> 33:17.260]  But it's nice to be able to get calls from people.
[33:18.200 --> 33:19.540]  You know, you're complaining, Emmanuel.
[33:19.540 --> 33:21.220]  This is costing $12 a minute.
[33:21.420 --> 33:22.200]  Oh, my goodness.
[33:22.840 --> 33:23.160]  Wow.
[33:25.300 --> 33:29.000]  Well, bring it back to KLM because, you know, you were supposed to be in the studio.
[33:29.480 --> 33:30.460]  Instead, you're over Scotland.
[33:30.460 --> 33:30.800]  I should...
[33:31.260 --> 33:31.620]  Yeah.
[33:31.860 --> 33:36.280]  I'm going to raise hell with their writing letters to the president of the company about this.
[33:36.380 --> 33:37.220]  This is not a good thing.
[33:37.400 --> 33:39.020]  Bernie, this is twice now.
[33:39.160 --> 33:40.980]  You were going to come back with me.
[33:41.060 --> 33:41.760]  You bailed on that.
[33:41.880 --> 33:42.940]  You were going to be in the studio.
[33:43.180 --> 33:44.080]  You didn't make it.
[33:44.440 --> 33:45.020]  What's next?
[33:45.220 --> 33:45.560]  I know.
[33:45.660 --> 33:46.760]  I'm just letting you down.
[33:46.780 --> 33:47.220]  I'm sorry.
[33:48.840 --> 33:53.360]  We should have just plodded on without any steering and ended up in Iceland or something.
[33:53.920 --> 33:56.840]  Have they given the passengers anything for the trouble?
[33:57.000 --> 33:58.060]  An extra crackers or something?
[33:58.060 --> 33:58.320]  Oh, yeah.
[33:58.400 --> 33:58.760]  It was great.
[33:58.920 --> 34:10.280]  Yeah, they gave everybody a nice envelope when they got off the first failed plane, which contained a $3 KLM slash Sprint calling card.
[34:11.740 --> 34:12.540]  So people...
[34:12.540 --> 34:18.280]  Which you could call people back in the States and say, hey, on this flight, it was delayed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[34:18.520 --> 34:19.160]  But there was...
[34:19.160 --> 34:22.560]  They herded us off the plane into this little corral, the secured area.
[34:23.020 --> 34:24.920]  Security wouldn't let us get past this corral.
[34:26.240 --> 34:28.060]  And for security reasons, obviously.
[34:28.560 --> 34:31.760]  And there was only one payphone in this corral.
[34:31.940 --> 34:38.860]  So you had, you know, like 100-some passengers all trying to use one phone with a three-minute phone card, which was a complete disaster.
[34:39.500 --> 34:42.820]  And then a few hours later, and they couldn't have access to any other phone.
[34:42.980 --> 34:43.720]  So that was a waste.
[34:43.860 --> 34:46.100]  So we finally got on the replacement plane hours later.
[34:47.180 --> 34:49.740]  People tried to use them on the airplane satellite phone.
[34:49.900 --> 34:51.820]  But they didn't work on the airplane satellite phone.
[34:51.940 --> 34:56.180]  They're only, you know, they're prepaid calling cards for use on a, you know, on a payphone.
[34:56.600 --> 34:58.560]  So there are a whole lot of people upset about that.
[34:59.140 --> 35:02.380]  I can imagine there'll be quite a few angry conversations when you finally land.
[35:05.560 --> 35:08.340]  And we'll be getting back in the wee hours of the morning.
[35:08.500 --> 35:14.900]  I've got to, actually, this flight, I've got to pick up my car and drive back to Philadelphia after I land.
[35:14.900 --> 35:16.360]  So this is going to be a long night.
[35:17.260 --> 35:17.960]  Then I have to work tomorrow.
[35:18.200 --> 35:19.680]  And you're not even going to the right airport, are you?
[35:19.760 --> 35:21.600]  You're crossing a totally different airport than where you're landing.
[35:21.740 --> 35:23.440]  I'm going to, right, I'm going to JFK.
[35:23.640 --> 35:29.300]  And then I have to take, I'll probably just, the trains are running that late, you know, I'm just going to take a cab, I think.
[35:29.380 --> 35:30.220]  Don't you think that's the best way?
[35:30.520 --> 35:36.580]  Well, you know, I would say that KLM should probably front the cost of a cab, you know, to New York airport.
[35:36.880 --> 35:38.040]  But then again, I'm not there.
[35:39.120 --> 35:40.180]  I'll worry about that later.
[35:40.180 --> 35:45.460]  I have to get from JFK to Newark after I land and then drive, then find the car in the piles.
[35:45.560 --> 35:46.700]  Is there still a lot of snow in New York?
[35:47.140 --> 35:47.460]  No.
[35:48.560 --> 35:50.400]  No, it's pretty much cleared up.
[35:50.660 --> 35:51.780]  That sounded like the voice of Jim.
[35:52.000 --> 35:52.780]  It is, Jim.
[35:52.880 --> 35:53.300]  Yes, indeed.
[35:53.460 --> 35:53.940]  How are you doing?
[35:54.300 --> 35:54.960]  Oh, hello, Jim.
[35:55.220 --> 35:55.900]  Wish you were here.
[35:57.340 --> 35:58.100]  I don't.
[35:59.580 --> 36:02.820]  That's the journey from hell, Bernie, as is currently embarking on.
[36:03.720 --> 36:04.520]  One of many.
[36:05.300 --> 36:07.560]  Well, at least you had fun in Amsterdam last night.
[36:07.680 --> 36:09.000]  Was that not a fun time?
[36:09.700 --> 36:10.900]  Oh, that was incredible.
[36:11.160 --> 36:14.880]  I mean, it's just, New Year's Eve in Amsterdam is just unreal.
[36:15.120 --> 36:23.020]  There's a, I don't know if you've already mentioned this, but people there buy their own fireworks and set them off just, you know, in the crowds.
[36:23.480 --> 36:38.720]  According to one of my gracious hosts there, Sasha, he told me he did some research on the web and found out that Amsterdam citizens spent about 60 million euros, that's about $60 million, this year on fireworks just for New Year's Eve.
[36:40.540 --> 36:49.580]  And the result, the result is that it's probably the most amazing display of distributed pyrotechnics I've ever seen.
[36:49.820 --> 36:51.140]  And it goes on for hours.
[36:51.520 --> 36:52.200]  Yes.
[36:52.360 --> 37:10.340]  As you know, and despite the thousands of people setting off rockets and Roman candles and firecrackers and other things amidst huge crowds, I saw not a single police officer, no firefighters, no fires, no injuries.
[37:10.340 --> 37:16.420]  I mean, if Americans tried that, police in riot gear would be busting heads big time.
[37:16.640 --> 37:32.400]  Well, what I said to you last night, Bernie, was if a bunch of people had maybe assembled at Times Square and done what the people here in Amsterdam had done, namely set off fireworks en masse, I think the police would open fire on the crowd itself.
[37:33.100 --> 37:35.940]  But, by the same token, we said there were no arrests, no injuries.
[37:36.220 --> 37:38.700]  The same thing does happen in New York with large crowds.
[37:38.860 --> 37:41.280]  I was in Times Square, and there were no arrests.
[37:41.380 --> 37:42.140]  There were no injuries.
[37:42.300 --> 37:43.120]  Everybody was happy.
[37:43.200 --> 37:44.120]  Everybody was well-behaved.
[37:44.240 --> 37:48.960]  I don't think it's because of the Wall of Blue with heavy armaments surrounding them.
[37:49.000 --> 37:54.560]  I think it's because people are generally cooperative, and they do want to look out for each other.
[37:54.640 --> 38:01.440]  But when it's reinforcing your head over and over again that we're evil, that we need to be taken care of, that we're immature, we start to behave that way.
[38:01.440 --> 38:02.560]  And that's a big mistake.
[38:03.420 --> 38:09.940]  I think you said something once years ago that really stuck in my mind, Emmanuel, and that is, if you treat people like criminals, they'll act like criminals.
[38:10.840 --> 38:11.160]  Absolutely.
[38:13.540 --> 38:14.940]  And the same goes for many other things.
[38:15.960 --> 38:18.140]  People were not acting like criminals in Amsterdam.
[38:18.160 --> 38:20.360]  They were acting like they were just having a good time.
[38:20.480 --> 38:25.840]  Maybe a few of them were going over the top a little bit, but they weren't doing anything malicious.
[38:27.040 --> 38:31.200]  No, there were people, you know, a little rambunctious, a little loud, you know, but you deal with it.
[38:31.440 --> 38:32.100]  You know, you compensate.
[38:32.460 --> 38:34.540]  And everybody kind of works it out in the end.
[38:34.660 --> 38:36.200]  I'm sure there are some troublemakers.
[38:36.360 --> 38:37.640]  I'm sure there are some altercations.
[38:38.620 --> 38:42.180]  But nothing to speak of that, you know, would mar the situation.
[38:42.600 --> 38:45.140]  And, you know, today the city is normal.
[38:45.360 --> 38:46.400]  You know, just like a regular day.
[38:47.240 --> 38:48.580]  I didn't see a single fight.
[38:49.920 --> 38:52.240]  Yeah, I saw an argument later on.
[38:52.300 --> 38:56.260]  The only time I saw police was well after, like maybe four or five hours after midnight.
[38:56.260 --> 38:59.500]  There were some police and two people were arguing.
[38:59.660 --> 39:04.060]  That was the only thing I saw the whole night as far as actual police.
[39:04.060 --> 39:08.220]  I saw a few cars and trucks, some police cars and trucks, but that was it as far as actual police involvement.
[39:09.300 --> 39:19.320]  Speaking of fireworks, Jeff, when you were in the eastern half of Germany a couple days ago, didn't you notice that the German post office was actually selling fireworks?
[39:19.320 --> 39:23.200]  Yeah, I wanted to get a letter off to a business there.
[39:23.240 --> 39:31.980]  And I walked into the post office and the line, the queue for everyone to go and buy their stamps had baskets.
[39:32.320 --> 39:38.280]  There were two separate displays of baskets of fireworks sold in their post office.
[39:38.580 --> 39:40.040]  I couldn't believe it.
[39:40.420 --> 39:42.940]  Well, in the United States, we give away guns with bank accounts.
[39:43.820 --> 39:46.040]  What kind of fireworks are we talking about, Jeff?
[39:46.120 --> 39:47.580]  Like rockets and...
[39:47.580 --> 39:57.180]  Yeah, the biggest thing that they get a kick out of there were the assortment of just bottle rockets, all different sizes, different reports and things that went on with it.
[39:57.240 --> 39:59.980]  And they averaged about one euro each.
[39:59.980 --> 40:07.820]  Every package I looked at had maybe 19 rockets, all different sizes, and the cost for the whole thing was 19 euros.
[40:09.260 --> 40:09.660]  Wow.
[40:09.760 --> 40:10.100]  Not bad.
[40:10.180 --> 40:10.720]  Not bad at all.
[40:10.720 --> 40:13.440]  You can buy them from the local government and set them off.
[40:13.540 --> 40:15.000]  Because the government runs the post office there, right?
[40:15.140 --> 40:15.340]  Yeah.
[40:15.340 --> 40:16.600]  They also had...
[40:16.600 --> 40:17.100]  Look...
[40:17.100 --> 40:23.900]  Every shop that wanted to, basically, is allowed to sell fireworks three or four days before New Year's.
[40:24.000 --> 40:25.300]  So you had the locksmith.
[40:25.540 --> 40:29.420]  You had a stationary store right by our hotel.
[40:29.680 --> 40:40.580]  Those were two of the things that we had to see that were just brought this stuff in, put posters up in the window, and then little big banners outside to let you know that this is what they were selling.
[40:41.560 --> 40:46.400]  Apparently, they handled them more safely than the stores do in Mexico.
[40:47.500 --> 40:48.780]  I heard about that.
[40:48.940 --> 40:51.060]  I heard that there were some problems there.
[40:51.820 --> 40:53.080]  Well, not just problems.
[40:53.220 --> 40:57.440]  Some 30-some people died at a fireworks store in Mexico.
[40:57.620 --> 41:02.600]  And I saw a video of this at CNN while I was waiting in the airport for my next flight.
[41:02.780 --> 41:04.220]  And it was hideous.
[41:04.220 --> 41:08.860]  I mean, you remember what Amsterdam was last night, Emmanuel.
[41:09.580 --> 41:13.880]  Imagine that all shrunk down into a store with a bunch of people into it.
[41:14.240 --> 41:14.480]  Yeah.
[41:14.580 --> 41:15.120]  No, that's...
[41:15.120 --> 41:16.980]  You obviously have to be somewhat responsible.
[41:17.220 --> 41:21.520]  And it doesn't seem like down in Mexico they were very responsible as far as that particular situation goes.
[41:21.900 --> 41:23.060]  So that's a real tragedy.
[41:24.140 --> 41:29.300]  We were talking, though, about the technology in Germany and the differences in culture.
[41:29.300 --> 41:41.440]  One thing that I thought didn't work quite so well, but maybe it's just because of my upbringing, on the actual subway trains, the way you buy a ticket is so incredibly confusing.
[41:41.620 --> 41:44.700]  And I think a lot of us were just kind of wandering around in a daze.
[41:45.180 --> 41:50.080]  I remember you, Jeff, in particular, had some problems.
[41:50.180 --> 41:52.560]  I mean, we actually all had problems, but...
[41:52.560 --> 42:02.000]  Yeah, but you know, speaking about the differences, one of the things that we need to do here that they're letting me know is that I've got to give the ID here that this is WBAI in New York.
[42:02.420 --> 42:05.020]  Oh, yes, of course, because it's 41 minutes after the hour.
[42:05.440 --> 42:05.800]  Exactly.
[42:06.000 --> 42:08.300]  So I want to make sure we get that in.
[42:09.920 --> 42:10.380]  But...
[42:10.380 --> 42:13.600]  I'd like to ID this satellite transmitter.
[42:14.040 --> 42:14.700]  This is a...
[42:14.700 --> 42:15.840]  I'd like to ID...
[42:15.840 --> 42:17.360]  This is a French Telecom...
[42:18.840 --> 42:26.340]  Telstra Corporation, KLM4, 2017-OOR2, 30,000 feet over the North Atlantic.
[42:26.500 --> 42:31.260]  And I'm speaking on an Alcatel hotel phone, which has a very interesting feature.
[42:31.640 --> 42:35.960]  If you call another room, it displays the guest's name.
[42:36.160 --> 42:38.820]  So if you call somebody at random, you find out who they are.
[42:39.160 --> 42:39.860]  Isn't that nice?
[42:41.480 --> 42:41.840]  Interesting.
[42:41.960 --> 42:43.520]  You dial the room number and it says their name?
[42:43.640 --> 42:44.300]  It says their name.
[42:44.320 --> 42:45.900]  So it's a great way to stalk people.
[42:46.060 --> 42:46.300]  Yeah.
[42:46.300 --> 42:47.180]  To figure out who's in what room.
[42:47.760 --> 42:48.400]  Oh, man.
[42:48.540 --> 42:51.060]  Is it like a synthesized voice thing, then, I guess?
[42:51.220 --> 42:54.340]  No, it's an LCD display on top of the phone.
[42:54.340 --> 42:55.360]  Oh, it shows...
[42:55.360 --> 42:56.400]  Okay, it shows up in text.
[42:56.700 --> 42:58.020]  You called me right now.
[42:58.020 --> 43:00.260]  So right now, it just says on the phone thing, it says external.
[43:00.720 --> 43:01.500]  That's all it knows about you.
[43:02.580 --> 43:04.460]  Speaking of text, wasn't...
[43:04.460 --> 43:11.960]  I first experienced European TV teletext this past week.
[43:12.080 --> 43:12.920]  Wasn't that pretty amazing?
[43:13.200 --> 43:13.640]  Yes.
[43:14.220 --> 43:15.820]  Teletext has been around for many years.
[43:15.940 --> 43:18.880]  In fact, a lot of American networks have it.
[43:18.880 --> 43:24.800]  You can go to cnn.com slash text, I believe, and you'll see exactly how it works.
[43:25.160 --> 43:30.700]  In Europe, you simply hit the text button on your remote control, and you have a whole world of options.
[43:30.860 --> 43:37.840]  You enter three-digit numbers, and you get all kinds of things from news headlines to TV schedules to lottery numbers, and this is over the air.
[43:37.940 --> 43:38.800]  Anybody can do this.
[43:40.480 --> 43:42.340]  Teletext has actually been around for about 20 years.
[43:42.340 --> 43:49.920]  In fact, the first Teletext keyboard I've ever seen was in your house, Emmanuel, back in the 80s.
[43:50.240 --> 43:58.840]  I don't know if it was yours or somebody else's in the house, but it was actually an AT&T Teletext keyboard, and I don't know what service it used or whatever, or where it came from.
[43:59.000 --> 44:02.240]  And before that, France had the Minitels, which was back in the 70s.
[44:02.320 --> 44:04.140]  They had a similar kind of thing.
[44:04.840 --> 44:09.960]  So, you know, sometimes Americans seem to be so far behind in implementing technology.
[44:09.960 --> 44:11.480]  I don't think our technology is poor.
[44:11.480 --> 44:20.880]  I just think there's a lot of bureaucratic and government nonsense that prevents good technology from being implemented, and I think this TV Teletext is a good example.
[44:20.880 --> 44:26.820]  You can bring up all kinds of information on your TV screen with your remote control using this.
[44:27.040 --> 44:32.640]  Well, I think one of the biggest problems is that we have conflicting standards, and we consider that to be competition.
[44:32.900 --> 44:43.440]  Rather than have four or five GSM companies in a single city, we have four or five different ways of making phone calls, all requiring a separate kind of handset.
[44:43.540 --> 44:43.740]  All incompatible.
[44:43.980 --> 44:45.940]  Yeah, all incompatible for each other, so...
[44:45.940 --> 44:46.140]  All incompatible.
[44:46.480 --> 44:48.260]  I don't consider that to be really competition.
[44:48.360 --> 44:50.440]  That's kind of just a big inconvenience to the consumer.
[44:51.540 --> 44:51.940]  We'll...
[44:51.940 --> 44:56.720]  Speaking of competition, I just wanted to mention that I mentioned to you the other day, and the listeners might want to know.
[44:56.720 --> 45:04.860]  So, at least with Sprint PCS, apparently, cellular number or PCS number portability has gone into effect.
[45:05.880 --> 45:07.360]  Yes, we heard that last week.
[45:08.380 --> 45:08.880]  Okay, good.
[45:08.900 --> 45:10.320]  I didn't know if that was on the show or not, but that's...
[45:10.320 --> 45:15.360]  Yeah, we did hear that portability does seem to be in effect, and I'd like to be able to test that.
[45:15.360 --> 45:17.280]  It means I can finally get rid of Sprint and keep my number.
[45:18.360 --> 45:19.140]  Yes, that would be...
[45:19.140 --> 45:26.460]  I think that was one of the main things people stopped switching cell phone carriers because they didn't want to give up their number, so maybe this will help the competition.
[45:27.420 --> 45:27.720]  That's right.
[45:28.220 --> 45:32.520]  Bernie, you're still over the Atlantic Ocean somewhere, or are you still over Scotland, or any idea?
[45:32.660 --> 45:34.740]  I hope so, but they turned off the interactive mat.
[45:34.880 --> 45:38.880]  Maybe somebody can call in and tell me where I am.
[45:39.080 --> 45:40.140]  I just look out the window.
[45:40.260 --> 45:40.840]  It's all black.
[45:41.120 --> 45:42.480]  Well, that's probably because it's nighttime.
[45:43.640 --> 45:47.820]  And is it true that this call is actually costing you so far over $250?
[45:49.180 --> 45:50.420]  Have you done the math so far?
[45:50.760 --> 45:51.580]  Not exactly.
[45:51.680 --> 45:52.540]  It's just a rough estimate.
[45:53.260 --> 45:55.980]  It could be, but consider my employer paid for my...
[45:56.000 --> 45:57.220]  I tripped to the CCC Congress.
[45:57.420 --> 46:01.220]  I consider this just money I would have spent on it anyway had they not paid for it.
[46:01.260 --> 46:03.400]  But this phone call will cost more than the airfare, probably.
[46:04.500 --> 46:08.340]  Well, this is all going in my letter to KLM as to...
[46:09.240 --> 46:12.440]  You know, I should have been back in New York and doing this in person.
[46:12.440 --> 46:13.780]  So this is a...
[46:13.780 --> 46:17.660]  I'm going to call on to task, and I'm handing this gift of a phone bill to KLM.
[46:17.840 --> 46:23.000]  Another note that off-the-hook participants are not dedicated because this is a...
[46:23.000 --> 46:26.280]  I thought paying a dollar a minute would be dedication if I decided to do that.
[46:26.360 --> 46:27.840]  But this is unbelievable.
[46:28.020 --> 46:29.240]  $14 an hour...
[46:29.240 --> 46:30.140]  Or a minute, rather.
[46:31.600 --> 46:32.520]  $12 a minute.
[46:32.900 --> 46:33.660]  Oh, $12 a minute.
[46:33.660 --> 46:34.520]  It's described here.
[46:34.800 --> 46:36.720]  It says calls cost U.S.
[46:37.180 --> 46:41.740]  $590 per 30-second increment, and there is a minimum charge of one minute per call.
[46:42.200 --> 46:42.800]  I see.
[46:44.200 --> 46:46.640]  Well, this will be a historic call for sure.
[46:48.060 --> 46:54.900]  We want to take phone calls from our listeners as well, but is there anyone else in the studio that has stories they want to share with us?
[46:55.120 --> 46:56.020]  And we'll take some phone calls?
[46:56.180 --> 46:56.380]  Yeah.
[46:57.380 --> 46:58.180]  Alex is here.
[46:58.720 --> 46:59.440]  Alex, how are you doing?
[46:59.580 --> 47:00.260]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[47:00.380 --> 47:00.740]  How are you doing?
[47:00.740 --> 47:04.400]  I'm doing pretty good here in Amsterdam, and Bernie over the Atlantic Ocean somewhere.
[47:04.500 --> 47:05.680]  I can't believe Bernie's story.
[47:05.820 --> 47:06.740]  It's absolutely incredible.
[47:07.740 --> 47:10.540]  I had a really interesting article I'd like to share with people.
[47:10.780 --> 47:20.480]  It was in last week's Village Voice, and it actually goes back to something we were talking about before, relative to potential visitors being really hesitant about coming to the United States.
[47:20.660 --> 47:23.420]  I guess something that you've experienced over this last week that you've been gone.
[47:23.980 --> 47:29.280]  The article is actually called Crossing Sores with General Ashcroft, and it's about the Bill of Rights.
[47:29.280 --> 47:31.740]  You know, why is there no Bill of Rights Defense Committee?
[47:32.020 --> 47:36.660]  And it has to deal specifically with the USA Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act.
[47:37.800 --> 47:38.500]  Excuse me.
[47:38.720 --> 47:46.100]  And basically, what it details is that Eugene, Oregon, is one of the first cities...
[47:46.100 --> 47:46.980]  Actually, let me read this to you.
[47:47.040 --> 48:02.560]  Eugene city councilors gave in to a stampede of constituents Monday night, surprising even themselves by voting unanimously at an impassioned meeting to make Eugene, the 15th city in the United States, and the first in Oregon to formally seek reform or repeal the USA Patriot Act,
[48:02.980 --> 48:04.600]  which is a pretty amazing step.
[48:05.040 --> 48:24.120]  And what they're doing is requiring law enforcement officials to report to the Eugene city council about different kinds of human rights violations, different search warrants that they've executed, wiretafts, just about everything that is done via the USA Patriot Act is required to be reported to the Eugene city council.
[48:24.560 --> 48:33.540]  And what it actually accomplishes is, in the absence of judicial oversight, the citizens, the city council, the constituents themselves have demanded this.
[48:33.780 --> 48:45.200]  And it seems like it's a real refreshing piece of news to be reading today, you know, when so many people are just bowing down to the federal government, you know, saying that this is the way things ought to be, this is the way things need to be.
[48:45.980 --> 48:47.900]  It's glad... I'm really glad to hear that.
[48:48.100 --> 48:54.020]  You know, all the way across the country, we have really dedicated individuals that are saying, no, this is not the way it's going to be.
[48:54.240 --> 48:55.900]  And we demand that you repeal this.
[48:55.960 --> 48:59.600]  We demand that you tell us who's being detained, why they're being detained, how you got them detained.
[48:59.960 --> 49:00.960]  We want to see the evidence.
[49:01.180 --> 49:06.220]  And I think, you know, if more people did this, less people would be afraid to come to the United States.
[49:06.440 --> 49:08.020]  Yeah, and I think it's very inspirational.
[49:08.960 --> 49:09.980]  I'm sorry, I think it's very...
[49:09.980 --> 49:14.740]  I imagine the next volley in this battle of words is going to be...
[49:14.740 --> 49:21.220]  A battle of wills is going to be the all-too-overused phrase, national security.
[49:21.480 --> 49:25.780]  And for national security reasons, we can't reveal or won't reveal this information.
[49:26.300 --> 49:30.680]  Well, actually, there's a lawsuit right now that the Eugene City Council is trying to become a party to.
[49:31.420 --> 49:37.900]  It was brought by the ECLU, along with EPIC, who we're all familiar with, Electronic Privacy Information Center.
[49:38.220 --> 49:53.280]  And basically what they're looking to do is, under the Freedom of Information Act, they're looking to get the federal government to disclose why, you know, who and why, under the USA Patriot Act, have been detained.
[49:53.280 --> 49:57.480]  And a federal district court judge in Washington, D.C.
[49:57.540 --> 50:10.260]  has actually ordered the Attorney General, John Atchcroft, to supply the information that these organizations have requested by January 15th, or the government will have to explain why it's not revealing how it's implementing the USA Patriot Act.
[50:11.260 --> 50:17.200]  You know, this is really the only way things will change, is if people stand up and take that chance.
[50:17.860 --> 50:22.900]  You know, you might really piss off somebody, you might make enemies, but it's a fight.
[50:23.060 --> 50:24.920]  If you believe in something, you have to do it.
[50:25.020 --> 50:29.460]  And then, you know, my hat's off to these people who are actually having the guts to go ahead with this.
[50:30.440 --> 50:35.520]  I've heard the Freedom of Information Act was on the chopping block.
[50:37.660 --> 50:46.120]  Well, I've heard that too, but I think there would be a tremendous amount of backlash if it actually did end up on the chopping block.
[50:46.120 --> 50:50.080]  Well, a lot of it is going to be reduced, let's put it that way.
[50:50.260 --> 50:53.220]  It might not disappear in name, but a lot of it will...
[50:53.220 --> 50:54.520]  Well, sure, in effect, absolutely.
[50:54.740 --> 50:54.960]  Exactly.
[50:55.320 --> 50:57.180]  Listen, guys, I really think we should take some phone calls.
[50:57.260 --> 50:58.300]  We have less than 10 minutes.
[50:58.520 --> 50:58.780]  All right.
[50:58.980 --> 51:00.060]  So, Jeff, what do you think?
[51:00.260 --> 51:00.920]  Sure, sure.
[51:01.460 --> 51:02.260]  All right, we'll start.
[51:03.300 --> 51:04.280]  Oh, you're on the air.
[51:04.720 --> 51:05.080]  Yes.
[51:07.000 --> 51:07.760]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[51:07.900 --> 51:08.280]  Hi, Bernie.
[51:08.780 --> 51:09.440]  Hi, Rebel.
[51:09.520 --> 51:10.020]  How are you?
[51:10.220 --> 51:10.580]  Good.
[51:16.120 --> 51:16.500]  Very interesting.
[51:16.740 --> 51:17.180]  I wish...
[51:17.180 --> 51:17.660]  I wish...
[51:17.660 --> 51:18.420]  Can you hear me?
[51:18.680 --> 51:19.680]  Yeah, we hear you just fine.
[51:19.840 --> 51:22.500]  Yeah, I wish I could go to Europe or some other country.
[51:22.620 --> 51:28.580]  The only country I've been to is Mexico and Canada, and, you know, I play with the phones there.
[51:28.700 --> 51:30.200]  But I just wanted to mention that...
[51:30.880 --> 51:33.860]  Remember when I was mentioning about the free information calls?
[51:34.060 --> 51:35.020]  Like it was yesterday.
[51:35.020 --> 51:50.360]  Okay, you can, on these Verizon pay phones that charge you 50 cents, when you're trying to make a local call and put a quarter in and it still asks you, it's all because of a recording, you just dial, just dial zero, have the operator dial the number,
[51:50.440 --> 51:51.800]  she'll ask for 25 cents.
[51:53.320 --> 51:55.560]  Okay, that's a fascinating bulletin.
[51:56.620 --> 51:59.520]  Maybe some more calls will have even more interesting news.
[52:01.200 --> 52:01.840]  Thank you.
[52:04.460 --> 52:05.720]  Hello, you're on the air.
[52:07.340 --> 52:08.300]  They're not there.
[52:08.480 --> 52:09.300]  That brings back memories.
[52:11.060 --> 52:12.300]  Hello, you're on the air.
[52:12.740 --> 52:13.200]  Hi.
[52:14.320 --> 52:15.300]  I wonder...
[52:15.300 --> 52:31.040]  I don't know much about the hacker culture, but I wonder if there are subgroups or internet sites where people who are similarly privileged are trying to help this privileged people elsewhere, I don't know, in Africa or Asia.
[52:34.740 --> 52:42.880]  Or if there's a link on your site, I would like to get in touch with people in Europe or elsewhere who do that kind of work.
[52:44.160 --> 52:48.400]  As far as giving computer equipment to underprivileged people in different parts of the world?
[52:49.580 --> 52:53.500]  Or CDs with valuable programs, at least.
[52:53.620 --> 52:55.240]  You know, that's the least they can do, I guess.
[52:56.520 --> 52:58.280]  I know such organizations exist.
[52:59.340 --> 53:03.980]  We don't actively do that ourselves only because we've got our hands full of all kinds of other things.
[53:04.140 --> 53:05.800]  But I know they're out there.
[53:05.860 --> 53:09.380]  And I know they're probably pretty easy to find on a Google search or something.
[53:13.540 --> 53:15.840]  How would you search for something like that?
[53:16.340 --> 53:20.460]  Look for computer donations, third world, that kind of thing.
[53:21.400 --> 53:28.320]  And I'm sure if a listener out there knows of a particular group, I'm sure they'll call in either this week or in future weeks.
[53:28.540 --> 53:31.840]  So listen to the show and we'll pass that information along if we get it.
[53:32.120 --> 53:32.340]  Okay.
[53:32.400 --> 53:33.480]  May I make a comment also?
[53:34.280 --> 53:53.600]  I hope one day somebody will get in touch with Kung Bushman and will be maybe more surprised with their lack of police enforcement and how they are civilized despite the fact that they carry lethal weapons, most of them, you know, spears.
[53:53.820 --> 53:55.660]  I'm not sure if they still exist, by the way.
[53:55.760 --> 53:58.760]  But, you know, that was one thing that surprised even Europeans.
[53:59.340 --> 54:08.420]  And I, for my part, don't find it impressive that the millions of dollars are spent by Europeans on things that are wasted in one day.
[54:08.820 --> 54:10.140]  But anyhow, that's just me.
[54:10.660 --> 54:10.820]  Okay.
[54:11.100 --> 54:11.340]  All right.
[54:11.480 --> 54:11.840]  Thanks for your opinion.
[54:12.040 --> 54:12.240]  Sure.
[54:12.440 --> 54:12.660]  Thanks.
[54:12.860 --> 54:12.980]  Bye.
[54:13.600 --> 54:18.620]  Hey, Emmanuel, relative to the first half of that conversation, are there 2,600 meetings this Friday?
[54:18.840 --> 54:19.300]  Oh, yes.
[54:19.360 --> 54:19.940]  In fact, there are.
[54:20.380 --> 54:21.960]  I'll be in the New York meeting somehow.
[54:22.260 --> 54:23.920]  I have a similar experience to Bernie.
[54:24.060 --> 54:24.760]  Call the pay phone.
[54:24.940 --> 54:27.300]  I'll be at the New York meeting this Friday.
[54:27.300 --> 54:30.500]  But, yes, the first Friday of every month, 2,600 meetings.
[54:30.780 --> 54:35.880]  Go to www.2,600.com slash meetings, and all the information will be there.
[54:37.280 --> 54:37.760]  Excellent.
[54:38.940 --> 54:39.420]  Okay.
[54:40.520 --> 54:41.000]  Hello.
[54:41.120 --> 54:41.620]  You're on the air.
[54:42.480 --> 54:43.120]  Oh, hello.
[54:43.480 --> 54:44.140]  Let me pull over.
[54:45.100 --> 54:49.260]  Listen, for Bernie, yes, they're doing a tremendous expansion.
[54:49.520 --> 54:53.100]  They're planning for the Northampton County Prison out there in Easton.
[54:53.300 --> 54:55.760]  And to Emmanuel, I think he's in the hotel room there?
[54:55.940 --> 54:56.540]  Yes, I am.
[54:57.060 --> 54:57.300]  Okay.
[54:58.800 --> 55:04.520]  Well, you know, you could always go out to the bar and load up at the bar and then just charge it off to so-and-so in such and such a room.
[55:06.760 --> 55:13.640]  And I might add that in our country, we buy the rockets for the government, and the government shoots them off.
[55:14.640 --> 55:15.240]  That's right.
[55:15.760 --> 55:16.160]  Okay.
[55:16.360 --> 55:16.780]  That's true.
[55:17.100 --> 55:18.220]  So, yeah, an interesting point, though.
[55:18.520 --> 55:24.480]  Here in these countries, you can't do things like get somebody else's hotel key and be trusted.
[55:25.260 --> 55:31.840]  And, yeah, you know, I guess I think like an American in ways like, I can do this, I can rip this person off, it'll be really easy.
[55:32.340 --> 55:36.180]  And the way they think here is, yes, but why would you want to do something like that?
[55:36.240 --> 55:37.380]  It might not be quite that simple.
[55:38.240 --> 55:41.000]  But it's, you know, it's definitely more trusting.
[55:41.780 --> 55:42.080]  Yeah.
[55:42.320 --> 55:45.920]  Well, have a nice vacation over there, or whatever it is, and try to make it as possible.
[55:46.460 --> 55:47.100]  Whatever it is.
[55:47.160 --> 55:47.440]  Thank you.
[55:48.140 --> 55:48.520]  Thanks.
[55:48.660 --> 55:49.060]  Bye-bye now.
[55:52.380 --> 55:53.400]  Hello, you're on the air.
[55:57.220 --> 55:58.200]  Hello, you're on the air.
[56:00.100 --> 56:00.700]  Speak up.
[56:01.160 --> 56:01.300]  Huh?
[56:02.180 --> 56:03.180]  Hello, you're on the air.
[56:03.940 --> 56:04.300]  Hello?
[56:04.740 --> 56:04.940]  Hello.
[56:05.560 --> 56:06.580]  Yes, I'm turning my radio.
[56:06.640 --> 56:07.140]  Turning your radio.
[56:07.280 --> 56:07.420]  Hi.
[56:07.600 --> 56:08.060]  Hi, guys.
[56:08.320 --> 56:08.760]  Hi, guys.
[56:08.960 --> 56:10.300]  Hi, guys.
[56:10.940 --> 56:12.440]  And, you know, I like your program.
[56:12.620 --> 56:14.220]  I listen to it faithfully.
[56:14.880 --> 56:18.580]  I listen to everything that I can catch it.
[56:18.580 --> 56:27.220]  You know, I like the things that you guys discussed, especially when you were talking about the anti-terrorist bills and all that stuff.
[56:27.800 --> 56:35.620]  You know, as I tell people all the time, if you go back in the late days, the late 70s, it was all about the communists, communists.
[56:35.860 --> 56:38.040]  Unfortunately, now it's about the terrorists, terrorists.
[56:38.280 --> 56:41.260]  And, you know, there's still fear in your heart.
[56:41.600 --> 56:46.020]  And if you stop and think, it's all a whole bunch of crap.
[56:46.640 --> 56:48.340]  You know, that's the way I feel, and that's my opinion.
[56:48.580 --> 56:49.960]  I don't think you could have said it better.
[56:50.800 --> 56:52.020]  I'm not lying.
[56:52.220 --> 56:53.060]  You know, that's the way I feel.
[56:53.120 --> 56:58.600]  If you look at it, it's just, you know, read between the lines, as my professor would always say.
[56:59.440 --> 57:03.600]  Not what's in front of you, but read between the lines and see exactly what's going on.
[57:03.760 --> 57:04.740]  Thank you, and that's about it.
[57:04.860 --> 57:05.260]  Thank you.
[57:05.460 --> 57:05.760]  Thanks.
[57:06.660 --> 57:08.000]  That's a heartfelt opinion there.
[57:09.600 --> 57:10.540]  Hello, you're on the air.
[57:11.080 --> 57:12.860]  Oh, I thought we were running out of timing.
[57:12.860 --> 57:15.500]  I mean, can you repeat those sites?
[57:15.900 --> 57:18.960]  They said that the search engines are really not...
[57:18.960 --> 57:19.960]  Yeah, we don't have time for that.
[57:20.020 --> 57:24.620]  If you go to the web and go to offthehook.com, you can actually replay the whole show and get all of them.
[57:24.740 --> 57:24.940]  How's that?
[57:25.500 --> 57:26.680]  Well, we don't have off the hook.
[57:26.680 --> 57:27.000]  I'm sorry.
[57:27.140 --> 57:27.340]  I'm sorry.
[57:27.900 --> 57:28.520]  Correct me then.
[57:29.700 --> 57:32.300]  2600.com slash O-T-H.
[57:32.660 --> 57:33.380]  There you go.
[57:34.340 --> 57:35.220]  That'll get you there.
[57:35.400 --> 57:36.160]  That'll get me where?
[57:36.500 --> 57:40.420]  That'll get you to the radio show that you can hear everything that we said that you missed.
[57:42.100 --> 57:44.930]  2600.com slash O-T-H for offthehook.
[57:46.120 --> 57:47.000]  Yeah, we're out of time.
[57:47.380 --> 57:50.360]  If you still don't have the sites, I mean, you can just somebody write them down on you.
[57:50.360 --> 57:51.680]  Want me to give it out really quickly?
[57:51.760 --> 57:57.200]  Search lores.org, L-O-R-E-S, search lores slash Berlin.htm.
[57:57.880 --> 57:58.940]  That's the search engine.
[57:59.100 --> 57:59.820]  You just spell it.
[57:59.900 --> 58:00.360]  We gotta go.
[58:00.460 --> 58:00.960]  We gotta go.
[58:01.220 --> 58:01.340]  Sorry.
[58:01.600 --> 58:01.960]  Thanks.
[58:02.300 --> 58:03.220]  Bernie, are you still there?
[58:03.420 --> 58:06.200]  No, we lost Bernie a while ago.
[58:06.360 --> 58:07.540]  We probably saved him some money, though.
[58:07.900 --> 58:09.100]  Well, let's hope that's the reason.
[58:10.120 --> 58:13.360]  Okay, well, next week, I guess we'll update everybody on Bernie's fate.
[58:14.230 --> 58:16.180]  And hopefully I'll make it over the ocean, too.
[58:16.870 --> 58:18.540]  And I'll be somewhere else next week.
[58:18.620 --> 58:19.620]  I'm not sure exactly where.
[58:21.160 --> 58:22.340]  Okay, and we'll see you Friday.
[58:22.880 --> 58:24.100]  Well, yeah, I'll be at the meeting Friday.
[58:24.360 --> 58:26.440]  And, Jeff, you'll be in the studio next week, I believe.
[58:26.440 --> 58:27.560]  I hope to, yes.
[58:27.820 --> 58:28.240]  Excellent.
[58:28.840 --> 58:31.800]  Well, thanks, everybody, for all the hard work getting the show on the air.
[58:31.920 --> 58:33.580]  And thanks to all the listeners.
[58:33.980 --> 58:34.960]  We'll see you next week.
[58:41.260 --> 58:56.480]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would
[59:00.960 --> 59:03.000]  Understood But then it moves
[59:57.230 --> 01:00:21.650]  Hello, this is Al Giroux And you are listening to Just as I often do 99.5 WBAI FM Ah, it keeps me happy And this is WBAI New York It's time for the Personal Computer Show Oh, yeah.
[01:00:21.670 --> 01:00:25.970]  Thank you
[01:00:30.520 --> 01:00:31.920]  for listening to That Kova is listening to