[00:00.510 --> 00:04.090]  I'm Sputnik Hilambi in Hyderabad for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:13.510 --> 00:17.690]  Free Speech Radio News is produced at WBAI by Kata Mesta.
[00:18.150 --> 00:23.390]  Headlines editors from WMNF in Tampa, Florida are Randy Zimmerman and Nell Abrams.
[00:23.630 --> 00:25.730]  Our DC editor is Josh Chaffin.
[00:26.110 --> 00:31.310]  Technical producers at KPFA in Berkeley are Jade Paget-Seekins and Pauline Bartalone.
[00:31.750 --> 00:34.910]  We have production assistants from Carlos Fawada and Rosalind Fay.
[00:34.910 --> 00:38.210]  We have web support from Vanessa Tate and Leslie Holmes.
[00:38.470 --> 00:42.950]  You can go to our website at www.ffrn.org.
[00:43.110 --> 00:44.370]  I'm Deepa Fernandez.
[00:45.630 --> 00:47.850]  This is WBAI in New York.
[00:48.090 --> 00:49.130]  Off the Hook is next.
[00:54.510 --> 00:59.090]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I rip it off the wall.
[00:59.930 --> 01:04.590]  I cut myself all shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:05.270 --> 01:07.210]  We're turning at much worse.
[01:24.850 --> 01:25.410]  Good evening.
[01:26.170 --> 01:27.010]  Emmanuel, are you there?
[01:27.790 --> 01:28.210]  I'm here.
[01:28.310 --> 01:29.110]  You know, I didn't hear a theme.
[01:30.030 --> 01:30.590]  It's, uh...
[01:30.590 --> 01:31.290]  Well, you didn't hear a theme?
[01:31.370 --> 01:31.950]  It's playing here.
[01:32.330 --> 01:32.890]  That's interesting.
[01:33.030 --> 01:37.990]  And let's see a button on there that makes it so that we can't hear going out.
[01:39.550 --> 01:40.930]  But, yes, I'm here.
[01:41.290 --> 01:41.870]  Are you there?
[01:42.910 --> 01:43.530]  Yeah, we're here.
[01:43.990 --> 01:44.550]  Okay, great.
[01:44.630 --> 01:45.490]  That's where they're supposed to be.
[01:45.550 --> 01:47.110]  And I think Bernie's on the line with this as well.
[01:47.230 --> 01:47.510]  Is that right?
[01:47.870 --> 01:48.550]  I'm here also.
[01:48.670 --> 01:49.070]  Hello, Jeff.
[01:49.630 --> 01:50.350]  How you doing, Ed?
[01:50.690 --> 01:51.050]  Pretty good.
[01:54.770 --> 01:56.870]  The modern marvel of technology we have here tonight.
[01:57.190 --> 02:00.010]  I'm down here in Atlanta, Atlanta, Georgia.
[02:00.090 --> 02:07.750]  In fact, if you ever watch the news network CNN, you'll know that they have a program called Talk Back 5.
[02:07.910 --> 02:09.910]  Right now, I'm pretty much on that set.
[02:11.430 --> 02:13.770]  That set happens to be in the middle of a mall.
[02:14.130 --> 02:15.790]  It's a food court right next to it.
[02:16.590 --> 02:23.410]  I'm kind of known that watching the TV program, which I think is on every afternoon around the same time as BAI Talk Back is on.
[02:23.510 --> 02:24.590]  I don't know who got the title first.
[02:24.970 --> 02:25.950]  Are you on camera?
[02:26.610 --> 02:28.910]  I'm not on camera because the cameras have all been put away.
[02:29.430 --> 02:33.750]  It's nighttime down here, and they only do the show for one hour a day.
[02:34.370 --> 02:46.870]  But I say this because if anyone is in Atlanta and they want to come and be part of the Mitnick Liberation Tour, well, feel free to come down to the CNN building and come to where I Talk Back is.
[02:46.930 --> 02:50.630]  Actually, I'm in the food court right now, right next to the Talk Back area.
[02:51.550 --> 03:10.330]  And this is, of course, part of the Mitnick Liberation Tour that's taking place over the next few weeks, Kevin Mitnick will be released of all obligation as far as having to report to the government his whereabouts and permission to travel and not being allowed to use a computer on the Internet.
[03:10.450 --> 03:13.950]  That all comes to a screeching halt on January 20th.
[03:14.490 --> 03:15.890]  At least that's what we hope.
[03:16.330 --> 03:28.550]  Well, last time this happened, a number of years ago, it was, I believe, less than 30 days when federal authorities decided that Kevin had violated his probation and went after him.
[03:28.590 --> 03:34.970]  And, of course, that started the whole series of years on the run, followed by five years in prison.
[03:36.470 --> 03:44.110]  What's currently going to be a closed chapter in history once these three years of supervised release following those five years of prison comes to an end.
[03:45.190 --> 03:52.030]  So basically what we're doing is we're going across the country, kind of retracing the steps that we took when we filmed Freedom of Downtime.
[03:52.430 --> 03:57.410]  We're going to a bunch of other places as well, culminating in California on the 20th.
[03:58.190 --> 04:06.110]  So we'll be filming selections for the DVD, the Freedom of Downtime DVD, which everybody has been clamoring about ever since the video came out.
[04:06.730 --> 04:10.050]  But the DVD won't be done until we finish filming the new segments.
[04:11.470 --> 04:16.150]  And then we'll be heading back east in the northern part of the country.
[04:16.370 --> 04:17.990]  But right now we're in Atlanta.
[04:17.990 --> 04:22.350]  Atlanta will be in Orleans tomorrow and various other places.
[04:22.390 --> 04:34.890]  If you want to meet up with the caravan or whatever it is you want to call it, right now it's only one vehicle, so it's not much of a caravan, you can email us at downtime, as in Freedom of Downtime, just the word downtime, at 2600.com.
[04:34.890 --> 04:36.010]  Let us know where you are.
[04:36.190 --> 04:40.830]  And if you have to be on the same line that we're traveling down, we'll try to get both of us.
[04:41.650 --> 04:43.750]  Again, apologies to the people we haven't met up.
[04:43.750 --> 04:48.770]  I know we've gotten so much mail from people that wanted to meet up with us.
[04:48.910 --> 04:50.450]  In fact, some of you have demanded to meet up with us.
[04:51.510 --> 04:56.590]  We missed at least one parade in our honor, and it's because we didn't go down that interstate.
[04:56.590 --> 04:58.910]  We went down another one, and we're sorry about that misunderstanding.
[05:00.850 --> 05:01.790]  But we'll try.
[05:01.870 --> 05:05.810]  We'll try our best to meet up with the caravan or in that area.
[05:06.270 --> 05:08.110]  Again, we appreciate all the mail that we've been getting.
[05:12.370 --> 05:15.830]  We should warn you, Emanuel, that your audio is chomping in and out.
[05:16.750 --> 05:19.670]  Is it bad enough to be distracting to anyone who might be listening?
[05:20.950 --> 05:24.090]  It's distracting to me, but I don't know about other listeners.
[05:24.550 --> 05:26.070]  Well, you have a low tolerance for audio.
[05:26.190 --> 05:26.510]  I know that.
[05:27.450 --> 05:29.630]  No, Emanuel, he has a very high tolerance.
[05:29.870 --> 05:31.150]  I've worked in the car with him.
[05:31.210 --> 05:33.010]  It's amazing what he will listen to and put up with.
[05:33.150 --> 05:36.590]  You don't like listening to short waves, Jeff, because it fades in and out.
[05:36.590 --> 05:37.210]  But I think that's...
[05:37.210 --> 05:37.950]  Okay, okay.
[05:38.210 --> 05:41.930]  Now, these two guys travel together in Europe, and they're not each other's throats ever since.
[05:44.530 --> 05:45.250]  So, let's...
[05:45.810 --> 05:47.950]  If you want, I can call back on my GSM phone.
[05:48.750 --> 05:49.110]  I...
[05:49.110 --> 05:50.090]  Talk to you guys.
[05:50.310 --> 05:51.570]  I would do it, Emanuel.
[05:51.710 --> 05:52.690]  You did sound a lot better.
[05:53.250 --> 05:54.590]  I sound a lot better on the GSM phone.
[05:54.710 --> 05:54.850]  Yes.
[05:54.850 --> 05:57.130]  Okay, well, this is a good thing for listeners to know.
[05:57.370 --> 06:01.990]  Right now, I'm talking to you on a Sprint PTS phone, otherwise known as a TAPI phone.
[06:02.590 --> 06:09.210]  And I'll be talking to you in a moment on a GSM phone, and we'll see how that works.
[06:09.510 --> 06:11.630]  So, the next time you hear, we'll be hanging up.
[06:12.350 --> 06:14.970]  Hopefully, soon after that, you'll hear me again on the board.
[06:15.030 --> 06:17.390]  And there is somebody there that can press all the little buttons, right?
[06:17.730 --> 06:18.070]  Yeah.
[06:18.550 --> 06:21.510]  Okay, well, here I go, and here I come again.
[06:21.850 --> 06:22.170]  Okay.
[06:24.210 --> 06:25.350]  All right, well, we're...
[06:25.350 --> 06:28.170]  We'll keep our fingers crossed that none of us gets dropped.
[06:28.990 --> 06:30.390]  No, you should be fine.
[06:30.570 --> 06:32.150]  We've got two engineers in here now.
[06:32.410 --> 06:32.750]  Ah.
[06:34.630 --> 06:36.190]  A whole contingent of engineers.
[06:36.590 --> 06:40.090]  So, how has it been for you since you've been back?
[06:40.090 --> 06:41.910]  You had quite a harrowing experience.
[06:41.910 --> 06:45.070]  I finally landed safely at JFK from Amsterdam.
[06:45.630 --> 06:52.950]  Listeners who might not have heard last week's show, somewhere over the British Isles, my KLM flight developed a steering problem.
[06:53.150 --> 06:54.910]  The steering failed on the airplane.
[06:55.090 --> 06:56.950]  And they had to switch to manual steering.
[06:57.090 --> 06:59.090]  It's kind of like your power steering and your car failing.
[06:59.770 --> 07:07.950]  And they had to slowly turn around back over the North Sea and dump nearly all their fuel in the North Sea and then land in Amsterdam.
[07:07.950 --> 07:10.350]  And it delayed my arrival by several hours.
[07:10.470 --> 07:13.750]  So, I couldn't be in the studio as I'd hoped to last week.
[07:14.110 --> 07:15.170]  And now I'm in Philadelphia.
[07:15.510 --> 07:16.730]  So, yeah, that was an adventure.
[07:17.890 --> 07:19.270]  And it sounds like...
[07:19.270 --> 07:21.350]  I'm returning now, and I'm on a GSM phone.
[07:21.470 --> 07:22.050]  I don't know if you can hear me.
[07:22.290 --> 07:23.230]  Yes, yes, we can.
[07:23.350 --> 07:24.170]  We can also hear...
[07:24.170 --> 07:24.330]  Can I sound better?
[07:25.070 --> 07:25.430]  Yes.
[07:27.070 --> 07:27.730]  Much better.
[07:28.390 --> 07:30.150]  We can understand every word you're saying.
[07:30.450 --> 07:31.710]  And hear the passing traffic.
[07:33.130 --> 07:34.450]  Okay, I'm not hearing anything.
[07:34.590 --> 07:35.330]  I just heard Jim's...
[07:35.330 --> 07:35.810]  For some reason.
[07:37.330 --> 07:38.790]  Try to get into a quiet place.
[07:39.070 --> 07:39.470]  Okay.
[07:39.650 --> 07:40.490]  Well, I'm in a...
[07:40.990 --> 07:42.450]  Can't get very quiet around here.
[07:43.230 --> 07:44.570]  Well, tell the people to stop chewing.
[07:44.790 --> 07:45.370]  I'll try.
[07:49.960 --> 07:51.260]  All right, we've got you back.
[07:51.460 --> 07:53.020]  Where do you want to start, Emmanuel?
[07:54.100 --> 07:54.980]  Well, let's see.
[07:56.180 --> 07:57.060]  Where do we start?
[07:57.200 --> 07:58.560]  Well, Bernie, you just told your story.
[07:58.560 --> 08:01.220]  Now, there's nothing...
[08:01.220 --> 08:03.160]  No more details have come out.
[08:03.320 --> 08:10.360]  Well, I did contact KLM's American Division, which is Northwest Airlines.
[08:10.560 --> 08:15.740]  And I spoke today with a Christy Cody in press relations.
[08:16.000 --> 08:17.540]  Not to be fused with Christy Cody.
[08:19.000 --> 08:23.740]  And Christy tells me it's going to be difficult to get that information right away.
[08:23.740 --> 08:33.300]  But she promises me that in the next week she'll find out exactly what went wrong with the airplane, why the steering failed, and why they had to dump all the fuel into the North Sea.
[08:34.380 --> 08:35.700]  So that'll be interesting.
[08:35.920 --> 08:39.920]  I'm kind of curious because the rest of the passengers and myself really weren't...
[08:39.920 --> 08:44.580]  didn't feel like we were filled in onto what was really going on with that flight.
[08:44.580 --> 08:46.520]  Are they going to cover your call?
[08:47.400 --> 08:48.740]  Well, that's kind of interesting.
[08:49.480 --> 09:00.380]  As you may know, I called to relate the story from the satellite phone on the 747 airplane because I didn't get to New York when I was supposed to.
[09:00.380 --> 09:06.560]  And that call at $11.95 a minute probably cost a few hundred dollars.
[09:07.640 --> 09:16.660]  So after I landed, I thought, well, KLM is going to have to pay for this because it's their fault I didn't get to the WBAI studios on time.
[09:16.900 --> 09:25.480]  And just to be sure they didn't take this money from my Visa debit card account, I canceled my card.
[09:28.120 --> 09:31.140]  And it'll be a little more interesting now to see how this is resolved.
[09:31.380 --> 09:34.700]  I'm sure once they had the money, then it would be much more difficult to get it back.
[09:36.880 --> 09:40.200]  So they hadn't actually taken the money out of your account by the time you landed?
[09:40.580 --> 09:48.940]  Well, as of two days after New Year's, I guess the 3rd of January, they had not tried to build my account.
[09:49.640 --> 09:53.880]  And that's when I canceled the account, figuring, well, if they haven't built it yet, I'm not going to let them.
[09:55.400 --> 09:57.320]  So I don't know if these things are...
[09:57.320 --> 09:59.380]  Apparently they're not instantaneously billed.
[09:59.560 --> 10:00.800]  But we'll see what happens.
[10:00.800 --> 10:07.640]  If I get a call from my bank saying, hey, these people want several hundred dollars for a phone call, then I'll know they're trying to get the money.
[10:07.940 --> 10:13.160]  Well, I should point out, Bernie, that KLM is the airline you flew on.
[10:13.260 --> 10:16.000]  I'm sure the people that processed the call are not the airline.
[10:16.200 --> 10:22.620]  So they're going to be not really all that concerned with the fact that the flight was diverted and dumped fuel.
[10:22.620 --> 10:31.300]  But I'm quite sure that KLM gets a large cut of these calls, or they wouldn't allow these phones to be on their planes.
[10:32.680 --> 10:35.040]  Yeah, that's certainly true.
[10:36.180 --> 10:39.080]  So we'll see that people are taking care of it as they should be.
[10:40.380 --> 10:45.140]  Well, they should at least tell people what happened, because you reported this yesterday, rather last week.
[10:45.580 --> 10:53.000]  And I looked around, a lot of our listeners looked around, and we couldn't find any information on this KLM flight that had all these problems.
[10:53.340 --> 11:00.720]  By the way, it was KLM flight 643 leaving Amsterdam to JFK on New Year's Day.
[11:00.980 --> 11:05.880]  Yeah, and I have to kind of echo the words of all the people who wrote in to us after the Michael McGinnis story.
[11:06.240 --> 11:07.560]  You know, where's your proof, Bernie?
[11:07.720 --> 11:08.800]  I mean, did this really happen to you?
[11:08.840 --> 11:09.600]  Or are you putting us on?
[11:10.120 --> 11:11.320]  You know, I mean...
[11:11.860 --> 11:14.020]  Well, I have a few hundred witnesses, so that's great.
[11:14.100 --> 11:14.700]  Well, where are they?
[11:14.760 --> 11:16.680]  Are they in the studio, or they're not for the microphone?
[11:17.380 --> 11:18.280]  What are their names?
[11:18.360 --> 11:18.800]  Where are they from?
[11:18.920 --> 11:19.460]  Who are these people?
[11:19.500 --> 11:19.900]  Where are they?
[11:19.980 --> 11:20.920]  I haven't heard a word from them.
[11:21.060 --> 11:21.580]  Do you have numbers?
[11:22.060 --> 11:22.280]  Yeah.
[11:22.940 --> 11:25.440]  You see, it's very easy to perpetuate myths on the media.
[11:25.680 --> 11:27.780]  Have you guys been following this whole clone situation?
[11:29.220 --> 11:29.760]  Yes, we have.
[11:29.760 --> 11:30.220]  Oh, it's great.
[11:30.360 --> 11:48.080]  Yeah, we actually saw, while we were in Germany, Jeff and I watched on television the initial press conference with the re-aliens discussing this, and then we watched the follow-up story the day after, where this guy in a spaceman suit and a ponytail got on camera.
[11:48.160 --> 11:48.700]  It was pretty good.
[11:49.040 --> 12:01.760]  I just don't understand how these guys can go on international television and have reported that they had cloned a human being and really not provide a shred of evidence.
[12:02.040 --> 12:02.940]  Nothing at all.
[12:03.380 --> 12:05.300]  Better than that, they were denounced by the Pope.
[12:06.340 --> 12:10.320]  Well, the fact that they were denounced by the Pope means the Pope heard about it.
[12:10.400 --> 12:11.500]  You know, it's really not hard.
[12:12.180 --> 12:19.880]  And if it was reported to the Pope, then that means that, you know, someone in the Vatican took it seriously enough to actually say, well, this isn't just an Onion News report.
[12:19.940 --> 12:20.800]  This is real.
[12:21.800 --> 12:27.340]  You know, if that French doctor woman didn't look like an alien the way she does, I don't think she would have gotten a minute of airtime.
[12:27.680 --> 12:28.420]  There's your proof.
[12:28.680 --> 12:30.280]  I don't think we have to get nasty about it.
[12:30.380 --> 12:35.180]  But, you know, the question remains, how do such things get reported as news?
[12:35.760 --> 12:38.960]  And, you know, when people ask, where's the proof?
[12:39.060 --> 12:45.500]  That's the best example I can think of, because everybody reported that story and nobody had any proof.
[12:45.660 --> 12:49.560]  So why report things when it's such an outrageous thing in the first place?
[12:49.560 --> 12:56.920]  And, you know, the people have kind of a history of, well, lunacy, I guess, is the best way of phrasing it.
[12:57.060 --> 12:58.720]  And just no evidence.
[12:58.980 --> 13:00.240]  You know, it's kind of bizarre.
[13:02.240 --> 13:06.320]  But I wanted to mention an airplane story that I had, too.
[13:06.780 --> 13:10.940]  It involved, when I got back, my flight over the ocean was pretty smooth.
[13:11.800 --> 13:20.500]  Because of the way I got my ticket, I had to fly into Washington and then fly from Washington back to Newark, which was the opposite of what I did on the way over there.
[13:20.920 --> 13:26.900]  On the way from Washington to Newark, and I was also flying an airline that's technically bankrupt.
[13:28.180 --> 13:29.340]  Maybe more or less, too.
[13:29.940 --> 13:30.640]  I'm sorry?
[13:30.900 --> 13:31.620]  Which one?
[13:31.920 --> 13:32.320]  United.
[13:32.800 --> 13:33.420]  Oh, okay.
[13:33.680 --> 13:35.240]  Yeah, more recently bankrupt airline.
[13:35.920 --> 13:41.900]  And the planes that they used to get from Washington to Newark are rather small, to put it lightly.
[13:43.020 --> 13:48.160]  And we looked out the window and saw the plane, and this was a plane that had propellers.
[13:48.580 --> 13:54.280]  And it was amazing to watch the reaction of people as they came to check in and saw the plane.
[13:54.480 --> 14:00.020]  You know, we were actually like, oh my God, I'm not getting on that thing, you know, and how does that thing fly in the first place?
[14:00.880 --> 14:02.760]  It was, you know, funny watching.
[14:02.880 --> 14:04.380]  Of course, they all got on in the end anyway.
[14:05.100 --> 14:08.620]  But people were just very nervous getting on this thing that looked old.
[14:08.660 --> 14:09.280]  And it wasn't old.
[14:09.400 --> 14:10.120]  That was the funny thing.
[14:10.120 --> 14:20.240]  It was built in the 90s, and it's probably, I was told by many, many people with, you know, a good background in such things, that these planes are as safe as planes can possibly be.
[14:20.740 --> 14:26.340]  So, of course, today, that very type of plane is what crashed in Charlotte, North Carolina.
[14:27.280 --> 14:34.940]  And it really kind of made it very uneasy because, you know, I looked at the model of it, and it was, you know, exactly the same as far as I can tell.
[14:35.000 --> 14:36.800]  I'm not really an expert on that kind of a thing.
[14:37.560 --> 14:41.320]  I was sitting in the very front seat next to the door.
[14:41.720 --> 14:44.480]  You could touch the door with your hand.
[14:44.640 --> 14:46.720]  And it's, you know, the door that's on the opposite side of the plane.
[14:46.900 --> 14:50.020]  You could hear the pilots, you know, talking to each other.
[14:52.060 --> 14:54.580]  And it was, you know, very nerve-wracking.
[14:54.680 --> 14:56.860]  It was only a 40-minute flight, but it was a very nerve-wracking flight.
[14:56.860 --> 15:04.340]  But to make it even more coincidental, I happened to be in Greenville, South Carolina.
[15:04.500 --> 15:06.880]  That's where I spent the night last night.
[15:07.060 --> 15:11.960]  And Greenville, South Carolina is where the plane that crashed this morning was headed.
[15:12.700 --> 15:15.960]  So it's a small town, and they're dealing with a lot of tragedy to that.
[15:19.460 --> 15:24.180]  What were your opinions, or what were your feelings when you landed back in the United States, Emmanuel?
[15:24.380 --> 15:29.820]  I mean, I felt a very different feeling when I landed in New York than I did when I landed in Amsterdam.
[15:30.520 --> 15:36.000]  Well, I mean, I always feel different when I'm beginning a trip, and I feel different when I'm ending a trip.
[15:36.600 --> 15:41.980]  When I get back to the United States, I don't know, I guess I feel kind of cocky, because I know they have to let me in.
[15:42.660 --> 15:47.500]  I know eventually, no matter what they put me through, and I'm sorry for all the noise, but they're cleaning the tables next to me.
[15:49.440 --> 15:57.180]  But I know that they might ask me a lot of questions, they might search my luggage, they might do all kinds of things, but in the end, they have to let me in.
[15:58.020 --> 16:01.200]  So I'm sort of content to be a witness to what it is that they do.
[16:01.360 --> 16:08.300]  This particular trip back, I don't think I've gone through so many security points.
[16:10.160 --> 16:14.100]  As this, I mean, I went through three in Amsterdam just to get on the plane.
[16:15.100 --> 16:20.440]  Getting off in Washington, D.C., the first thing they do is make you go through a metal detector.
[16:20.660 --> 16:23.320]  When you get off the plane, this is transferring to another flight.
[16:23.400 --> 16:24.780]  But, I mean, I've never done that before.
[16:25.260 --> 16:30.620]  Then, of course, there was customs and, you know, all kinds of border patrol people.
[16:31.360 --> 16:33.240]  I even ran into a Beagle.
[16:33.680 --> 16:38.000]  They had a Beagle there, part of the Agriculture Department, Beagle Patrol.
[16:39.580 --> 16:44.840]  But that goes around sniffing your bags to make sure you don't bring any unauthorized food in.
[16:45.680 --> 16:52.360]  And, of course, there are the drug dogs and the bomb dogs and all kinds of other animals that are scrutinizing you as you walk through the airport.
[16:52.740 --> 16:54.540]  Next time, you can travel with some dog biscuits.
[16:55.140 --> 16:56.260]  Well, yeah, I'm not sure.
[16:56.280 --> 16:57.200]  I think they're immune to that.
[16:57.820 --> 17:03.380]  But, you know, it's just interesting to see all the different precautions that are taking place.
[17:04.900 --> 17:07.120]  You know, I didn't really feel singled out this time.
[17:07.400 --> 17:08.360]  I wasn't...
[17:08.360 --> 17:11.420]  The guy that asked me a lot of questions, he was trying to trip me up.
[17:11.500 --> 17:12.060]  It was kind of funny.
[17:12.240 --> 17:16.280]  He asked me where I was, how many days I was there.
[17:16.920 --> 17:20.180]  And then, well, if you were there that many days, how could you have been gone this long?
[17:20.280 --> 17:21.480]  And, of course, I hadn't asked for everything out there.
[17:21.560 --> 17:23.080]  I was in Berlin for this amount of time.
[17:23.080 --> 17:24.480]  I was in Amsterdam for this amount of time.
[17:25.480 --> 17:27.540]  And then he wanted to know why my bag was so small.
[17:27.920 --> 17:31.860]  I said, well, don't bring, you know, a whole lot of clothes with me.
[17:32.120 --> 17:33.860]  You don't have to drag the chairs like that, people.
[17:34.540 --> 17:35.100]  I'm sorry.
[17:35.700 --> 17:37.600]  People here are just dragging all the chairs around.
[17:39.420 --> 17:42.060]  And, you know, basically, he was looking for something to trip me up on.
[17:42.180 --> 17:43.140]  And he couldn't find it.
[17:43.200 --> 17:45.280]  And he just basically said, okay, go ahead.
[17:46.280 --> 17:49.760]  Until he really wanted me to be questioned further and searched.
[17:50.120 --> 17:52.120]  And he really said, you know, I felt sorry for him.
[17:52.180 --> 17:58.160]  He seemed so upset that I was going to get away with what I was doing, like just trying to get back into the country.
[17:59.700 --> 18:00.460]  Shame on you.
[18:02.100 --> 18:02.520]  Yeah.
[18:02.660 --> 18:10.580]  I was questioned by customs as I came back because I had something to declare, namely some tulips that I purchased in Amsterdam.
[18:11.020 --> 18:13.080]  You know, I knew that was going to be a problem.
[18:16.480 --> 18:19.080]  Well, I managed to get them into the country.
[18:20.340 --> 18:21.060]  Uh-huh.
[18:22.160 --> 18:29.420]  I purchased some tulips that may or may not have been approved for import to the United States.
[18:30.100 --> 18:36.100]  And then I also purchased some other tulips that were definitely approved for purchase.
[18:37.040 --> 18:42.560]  And, uh, in any case, uh, I managed to convince the customs people that they were all approved.
[18:44.320 --> 18:46.180]  Bernie, didn't you do that the last time we went?
[18:46.620 --> 18:47.400]  No, I didn't.
[18:47.500 --> 18:48.100]  You didn't bring...
[18:48.100 --> 18:50.360]  Yeah, no, I did bring back tulips the last time I was in Amsterdam.
[18:50.520 --> 18:50.900]  That's right.
[18:51.060 --> 18:52.160]  And those were approved, though.
[18:52.160 --> 19:00.400]  But this time I brought some back that weren't approved with some that were approved and managed to convince the two nice customs gentlemen that they were both approved.
[19:00.960 --> 19:03.320]  And I bought them from the same guy, I said.
[19:04.140 --> 19:05.220]  So that was kind of interesting.
[19:05.320 --> 19:09.740]  They also were kind of interested in some candies that I purchased at a store.
[19:09.860 --> 19:14.440]  Do you remember the candies that I purchased, the chocolate bars and gummy treats I purchased in manual?
[19:15.280 --> 19:21.040]  Uh, not specifically, but I was exposed to a lot of that kind of thing over there and it all kind of merges into one big mess.
[19:21.040 --> 19:25.380]  Well, these were the, uh, these were the, uh, let's see if I still have a bar here.
[19:26.000 --> 19:27.300]  Uh, it was Hempy Gummies.
[19:29.520 --> 19:32.200]  You know, this is a technical radio program.
[19:32.200 --> 19:34.340]  I was pointing out right now, we talk about issues of technology.
[19:34.500 --> 19:36.740]  And right now we're talking about gummy bears and things.
[19:36.780 --> 19:37.240]  That's true.
[19:37.380 --> 19:42.040]  Well, these were, uh, uh, gummy bears were, but they were actually gummy marijuana leaves.
[19:42.760 --> 19:47.860]  And also, uh, a chocolate bar that had, that it was like 8% uh, hemp seeds.
[19:48.760 --> 19:57.440]  Let me just point out for all the, uh, the parents and federal officials that are listening, when you say they were made of marijuana leaves, it was basically a symbol of a marijuana leaf, right?
[19:57.480 --> 19:58.880]  No, they were, they were not made of marijuana leaves.
[19:58.980 --> 20:00.200]  They were shaped like marijuana leaves.
[20:00.400 --> 20:00.980]  Shaped like marijuana, okay.
[20:01.220 --> 20:01.840]  I want to make sure that's...
[20:01.840 --> 20:03.240]  There was no marijuana in these.
[20:03.360 --> 20:08.600]  But there was hemp, uh, I don't know if there was actually any hemp content in the, uh, in the gummy, in the gummy treats.
[20:08.680 --> 20:12.500]  I'm looking here at the ingredients, but it's all in, uh, in Dutch.
[20:12.500 --> 20:13.760]  So I can't make it out.
[20:14.820 --> 20:22.080]  But the chocolate bars, which had big marijuana leaf on the package, had hemp seeds in them, which are supposed to be really good for you.
[20:22.220 --> 20:26.940]  So I bought a whole case of them back to give away as sort of a gift for people.
[20:27.160 --> 20:30.040]  I thought that was kind of interesting, because you don't find them at the 7-Eleven here anyway.
[20:31.340 --> 20:32.740]  And Customs wanted to know...
[20:32.740 --> 20:35.360]  They actually opened one up and looked at it and smelled it.
[20:36.200 --> 20:38.560]  And I said, well, there's no actual marijuana in them.
[20:38.720 --> 20:42.020]  And finally they let me take them in.
[20:43.800 --> 20:46.220]  I think they must still be illegal under the DMCA.
[20:47.060 --> 20:47.600]  Out of them.
[20:48.440 --> 20:53.100]  Speaking of which, we have some very good news as far as the ECSS program.
[20:53.220 --> 21:01.200]  We're going to get to that as soon as we finish talking about any other things that might be left over from our recent voice in the Chaos Communications Congress.
[21:02.240 --> 21:06.620]  Incidentally, the Chaos Communications Camp is taking place this summer.
[21:07.060 --> 21:09.140]  The date is still being firmed up.
[21:09.780 --> 21:13.700]  It's going to be sometime in either late July, early August, or both.
[21:14.180 --> 21:15.460]  And it'll be taking place in Germany.
[21:15.640 --> 21:18.800]  It'll be similar to the one I think that took place four years ago.
[21:20.200 --> 21:28.000]  And we're encouraging people to go over there and just learn a lot, experience a different culture, and bring some of it back with you, as we did.
[21:28.000 --> 21:33.580]  It's always a thing to get out of the country for a little while and experience these things and share the information.
[21:34.440 --> 21:38.760]  And, of course, we're looking for ideas for our next conference, which is also scheduled for 2004.
[21:40.620 --> 21:46.040]  So we're always open to people who have ideas and who have other ways of doing the same.
[21:47.720 --> 21:50.460]  Emmanuel, your phone is starting to make different noises now.
[21:50.480 --> 21:51.100]  How's your battery?
[21:51.860 --> 21:52.820]  My battery is just great.
[21:52.880 --> 21:54.240]  What kind of noises is it making?
[21:55.040 --> 21:56.200]  It's almost a honking.
[21:57.160 --> 21:57.960]  A honking.
[21:58.080 --> 22:03.300]  Well, you know, I think the people in the mall here are deliberately dragging every single chair they can find.
[22:03.320 --> 22:06.380]  You know that noise that food court chairs make when they drag them?
[22:06.620 --> 22:07.600]  On the tile, sure.
[22:07.780 --> 22:09.000]  Yeah, that's what they're doing right now.
[22:09.080 --> 22:11.560]  And they're very dedicated to hearing that.
[22:12.480 --> 22:15.600]  I'm giving them a real dirty look now, and they seem to have stopped for the moment.
[22:16.480 --> 22:17.720]  Is my phone still honking?
[22:18.300 --> 22:21.400]  It's doing a funny kind of cutout with a little hum with it.
[22:22.080 --> 22:23.920]  I'll just call back on the other line if you want me to.
[22:24.240 --> 22:24.780]  No, no, no.
[22:24.860 --> 22:25.560]  This is much better.
[22:25.760 --> 22:26.360]  No, stay with this.
[22:26.360 --> 22:26.760]  Better than that.
[22:26.820 --> 22:26.980]  Okay.
[22:27.040 --> 22:28.740]  As long as the battery is good, stay with it.
[22:28.960 --> 22:29.560]  Oh, the battery is fine.
[22:29.860 --> 22:31.720]  I should also point out that I...
[22:31.720 --> 22:32.160]  I'm sorry.
[22:32.220 --> 22:32.560]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[22:32.800 --> 22:42.180]  I was going to say, listeners may wonder why background noise sounds so very strange when they're talking to somebody on a cellular phone or a PCS phone.
[22:42.620 --> 22:53.900]  And that's because there's a device called a vocoder, which really digitizes your speech and compresses it using algorithms that try to model your voice.
[22:53.900 --> 22:59.720]  When you're hearing someone on a digital cell phone or a PCS phone, you're not actually hearing their voice.
[22:59.860 --> 23:03.780]  You're hearing a mathematical representation of their speech.
[23:04.140 --> 23:10.040]  And the vocoder is valiantly trying to convert these background sounds into human speech.
[23:10.040 --> 23:14.000]  And that's why it distorts them so much and makes them sound really, really weird.
[23:16.040 --> 23:17.320]  Thank you, Mr. Roboto.
[23:18.820 --> 23:21.800]  That was a nice little lesson in telephony there.
[23:21.880 --> 23:24.040]  And that is, of course, the case.
[23:24.220 --> 23:26.960]  You know, it's electronic representation.
[23:27.140 --> 23:32.040]  And I guess my electronic representation at the moment wants to make a honking noise while I speak.
[23:32.560 --> 23:50.220]  Emmanuel, before we move on to John Johansson, the one thing I did want to bring up that we didn't get a chance to talk about last week was Bernie and I went to the Checkpoint Charlie Museum, which was basically a collection of everything that everyone used to get past the Berlin Wall.
[23:50.560 --> 24:00.420]  All the cars, homemade ultralights, every system, every way, every tunnel, everything was covered that they used to get out.
[24:00.540 --> 24:04.640]  And it dawned on me about halfway through this thing that this was East Germany's Hacker Museum.
[24:05.200 --> 24:11.500]  And it was just a fantastic collection of stories and vehicles, all kinds of things.
[24:11.640 --> 24:15.480]  If anyone is there and ever has the chance, you have to put that on your list.
[24:15.640 --> 24:16.860]  It is a must-see.
[24:17.820 --> 24:19.660]  We spent a couple of hours there.
[24:19.780 --> 24:20.460]  It was really fascinating.
[24:20.680 --> 24:21.660]  They had to throw me out.
[24:23.200 --> 24:25.980]  Yeah, well, Berlin itself is just a fascinating city to be in.
[24:26.140 --> 24:27.200]  So many things to see.
[24:27.320 --> 24:28.740]  Such a mixture of the old and the new.
[24:29.280 --> 24:31.420]  And, of course, a lot of recent history as well.
[24:32.580 --> 24:34.040]  So, yes, I recommend that.
[24:34.100 --> 24:36.260]  I've never been to that actual museum myself.
[24:36.480 --> 24:39.020]  But I was at the original Check of Charlie in 1989.
[24:39.040 --> 24:40.560]  And that was quite a sight, too.
[24:41.340 --> 24:43.060]  Jeff asked me the question as we left.
[24:43.240 --> 24:46.020]  He said, Bernie, did any of that move you?
[24:46.200 --> 24:54.940]  I mean, were you able to feel anything, seeing how these people tried to escape under the watchful eye of armed guards?
[24:55.180 --> 25:04.140]  And I said, well, yeah, Jeff, I can actually relate to being behind barbed wire fences with people toting machine guns and that sort of thing.
[25:06.000 --> 25:10.140]  So, yeah, I could definitely relate to how those people felt behind the wall.
[25:10.900 --> 25:28.320]  You know, it's also interesting, too, Bernie, you talked to me earlier today concerning such things, concerning people who have been in prison, specifically Kevin Mitnick, where he's been under the watchful eye of the Fed since he was released in January of 2000.
[25:29.560 --> 25:31.920]  And you mentioned something that was rather disturbing.
[25:32.060 --> 25:32.920]  Do you want to share that with the listeners?
[25:32.920 --> 25:59.200]  Yeah, this week in Philadelphia, where this is the seat of the Federal Third Circuit Court, a federal ruling was made that said that federal probation officers are now permitted to require people under federal probation to undergo polygraph examinations at any time for any reason.
[26:00.280 --> 26:08.680]  And this brings up some interesting questions with regard to self-incrimination and it opens up a whole can of worms.
[26:09.000 --> 26:28.380]  So, I think Kevin Mitnick is lucky that he's getting off of federal probation very soon because it sounds like it's getting even more oppressive where, you know, your right to refuse a polygraph is not allowed under federal law now if you're under federal probation.
[26:30.100 --> 26:34.420]  So, good thing that he's getting out, but I'm not happy about this happening for other people.
[26:34.880 --> 26:35.860]  Well, it's interesting.
[26:36.140 --> 26:45.940]  You know, federal probation, or probation in general, seems to be kind of an experiment of citizens living in a free society, a quote-unquote free society, with no rights whatsoever.
[26:45.940 --> 26:51.600]  No right to vote, no right to privacy, all kinds of things, no right to travel.
[26:52.240 --> 26:54.780]  And I think this is just another step in that direction.
[26:54.920 --> 27:00.060]  And eventually, as threats increase, these things are applied to more and more of the general population.
[27:00.440 --> 27:05.820]  There are over one million people in this country who are under some form of probation or parole.
[27:06.020 --> 27:07.900]  And the term probation may...
[27:07.900 --> 27:10.920]  It's sort of a misnomer, I think, under the federal system.
[27:10.920 --> 27:19.380]  There is no such thing as federal parole during the whole truth and sentencing thing in the mid to late 80s, during the war on drugs hysteria, when that was beginning.
[27:21.100 --> 27:22.820]  Federal parole was done away with.
[27:23.060 --> 27:25.320]  And it then required that all...
[27:25.320 --> 27:25.720]  The U.S.
[27:25.780 --> 27:32.240]  Sentencing Commission then required that people would serve their entire sentence or, like, 90-some percent of their sentence in prison.
[27:32.240 --> 27:39.960]  And then they would serve an additional sentence of several years of supervised release, which is kind of like being in prison without the bars.
[27:40.620 --> 27:43.120]  And that's what federal probation is referred to.
[27:43.300 --> 27:47.120]  Even though it's really, for all intents and purposes, it is parole.
[27:47.460 --> 27:51.000]  But it's like parole on top of the entire sentence you already served.
[27:51.260 --> 27:52.260]  But they call it probation.
[27:54.420 --> 27:54.900]  Yeah.
[27:55.040 --> 28:04.120]  And the average person sees this as just further punishment for some kind of a crime and forgets that the sentence has been served.
[28:04.620 --> 28:07.080]  And the person is supposed to be put back into society.
[28:07.080 --> 28:12.020]  Yet, we seem to be increasingly believing that the person must be punished until the day they die.
[28:12.700 --> 28:22.620]  And it's really unfortunate and sad to see society turn into something like this, where there's really no chance at all to make your life better.
[28:22.840 --> 28:36.680]  I think, you know, we have to really take our hats off to Kevin for turning things around despite that, despite the difficulty, the hardness of actually making a living with all the conditions that were put on him.
[28:37.360 --> 28:47.940]  And I think being in very good shape, putting out a book, testifying before Congress, dealing with a lot of personal tragedy also in the last three years, it's a real inspiration.
[28:48.140 --> 28:58.780]  And I just hope that he's left alone until he's truly free and he gets to actually experience the joy of traveling, the joy of using the Internet.
[28:58.780 --> 29:05.720]  I don't know how much of a joy that is anymore, but it's something he hasn't been able to do since before he was locked up.
[29:06.140 --> 29:08.840]  And I'm sure it's changed quite a bit in his eyes.
[29:10.480 --> 29:12.280]  It's going to be a whole new world for him.
[29:13.080 --> 29:13.840]  Yeah, yeah.
[29:16.020 --> 29:17.760]  I can't under...
[29:17.760 --> 29:26.000]  Well, I can't describe enough for people what it's like to be out under that after you've been under it for several years.
[29:26.280 --> 29:30.460]  And Kevin will have been under this for about, what is it, eight years now?
[29:30.820 --> 29:34.120]  Well, he was in prison for five years, unsupervised release for three.
[29:34.300 --> 29:37.780]  But don't forget, before that, he was on the run for a couple of years.
[29:38.920 --> 29:42.780]  Before that, he was unsupervised release for three years.
[29:43.280 --> 29:45.880]  That's the one they determined that he had violated.
[29:46.120 --> 29:52.780]  And before that, he was in prison for, I believe, a year or 18 months, rather, eight months of which was in solitary confinement.
[29:53.020 --> 29:57.180]  And of course, that's what led to his going on the run when he found out they were after him the second time.
[29:57.640 --> 29:59.140]  So, you know, it's a long time.
[29:59.140 --> 30:05.620]  He has not actually had a day of freedom, of real freedom, where he can do whatever he wants, you know, within the law, obviously, since 1988.
[30:06.320 --> 30:12.840]  1988, this is the guy that, you know, hasn't been accused ever of stealing anything, intentionally causing any kind of damage.
[30:12.980 --> 30:16.340]  It's basically, you know, poking his nose in places he probably shouldn't poke his nose.
[30:16.460 --> 30:17.840]  And I think I do that all the time.
[30:19.240 --> 30:21.080]  I'm always on the verge of getting in trouble.
[30:21.200 --> 30:25.140]  You know, in fact, I was in a place called Fredericksburg, Virginia yesterday.
[30:25.520 --> 30:27.240]  And I thought I was about to get arrested there.
[30:27.740 --> 30:28.940]  I had no idea why.
[30:29.060 --> 30:31.660]  I was in this really cheapo motel.
[30:32.640 --> 30:33.420]  Ah, what the heck.
[30:33.960 --> 30:35.580]  It's a Days Inn.
[30:35.700 --> 30:36.520]  No, it wasn't Days Inn.
[30:36.540 --> 30:37.180]  It was the Best Western.
[30:37.560 --> 30:39.920]  And the rooms are really cheap.
[30:40.020 --> 30:40.780]  They're like 20 bucks.
[30:41.340 --> 30:45.760]  And all I remember is, all night long, people were pounding on the door.
[30:45.880 --> 30:46.600]  The phone was ringing.
[30:46.740 --> 30:48.160]  It was really kind of weird.
[30:48.540 --> 30:51.140]  And finally in the morning, you know, I decided to answer the door.
[30:51.560 --> 30:53.420]  I looked at a little peephole and there's this guy there.
[30:53.520 --> 30:54.260]  He looks like a sheriff.
[30:54.460 --> 30:57.860]  You know, he's got the glasses and he's got like, you know, the grim look on his face.
[30:58.460 --> 31:01.480]  So I open the door a crack and say, yeah, what do you want?
[31:02.940 --> 31:06.200]  And he says, what are you doing in there?
[31:08.300 --> 31:09.100]  I'm waking up.
[31:09.200 --> 31:09.920]  I'm trying to wake up.
[31:10.600 --> 31:11.700]  What do you mean, what am I doing in here?
[31:11.760 --> 31:14.240]  So I have no record of you being in this room.
[31:14.500 --> 31:16.200]  Like, well, I'm in this room.
[31:19.360 --> 31:23.060]  According to the motel records, there's nobody supposed to be in here.
[31:23.340 --> 31:25.540]  And, you know, I said to him, well, that's your problem, isn't it?
[31:25.860 --> 31:27.400]  I paid for a room here.
[31:27.420 --> 31:29.840]  I've got a little key that says I'm supposed to be in here.
[31:30.220 --> 31:37.780]  Apparently they messed up and they assigned the room to the wrong people, which explained why other people were trying to get into it in the middle of the night.
[31:38.660 --> 31:42.760]  But the way that they acted, they treated us like we were criminals.
[31:43.040 --> 31:51.780]  Like there are all these people wandering around Virginia trying to, like, you know, hole up in a $24 motel room for the night.
[31:52.500 --> 31:58.100]  You know, and I really felt at that point that these people were about to kick the door in and drag us away.
[31:58.240 --> 31:59.680]  And we didn't understand what the crime was.
[32:00.260 --> 32:03.080]  It's very easy for these things to get out of control.
[32:03.300 --> 32:07.240]  I mean, I found that out by luck in that particular situation.
[32:07.740 --> 32:11.740]  Um, it was all straightened out in the end, but, uh, it was, it was, it was scary.
[32:11.880 --> 32:17.160]  You know, it's scary having somebody pounding on your door and, uh, demand to know what you're doing in a place where you think you have some privacy.
[32:20.900 --> 32:21.220]  Wow.
[32:21.360 --> 32:22.420]  I'm glad that worked out.
[32:22.840 --> 32:23.740]  Well, I guess it did.
[32:23.840 --> 32:25.600]  I mean, you know, that happened on the first night.
[32:26.220 --> 32:29.500]  The second night we wound up in a town that, uh, experienced a plane crash.
[32:29.820 --> 32:31.380]  Who knows what's going to happen on the third night.
[32:31.600 --> 32:34.540]  So, um, it's an adventure to be sure.
[32:34.820 --> 32:36.080]  And, uh, we'll, we'll see what happens.
[32:36.540 --> 32:45.820]  Uh, but now the, the important news is of course, uh, John Johansson, uh, in Norway, uh, the writer of the, uh, the ECSS program, the alleged writer of the ECSS program.
[32:46.080 --> 32:54.280]  If you recall, when, um, when 2600 was put on trial back in 2000, uh, it was this program that was at the center of everything.
[32:55.040 --> 33:00.480]  Uh, John Johansson actually, uh, came over for the H2K conference and testified at the trial.
[33:00.840 --> 33:02.760]  Um, and of course we lost that.
[33:02.860 --> 33:03.640]  We lost that case.
[33:04.080 --> 33:05.320]  Uh, thanks to judge Kaplan.
[33:06.020 --> 33:10.240]  Uh, um, it was, it's a different story over in Norway though.
[33:10.500 --> 33:16.860]  Uh, he had a trial over there, uh, after, after all this pressure from the MPAA, uh, he actually was facing criminal charges.
[33:17.520 --> 33:21.860]  Um, and, uh, this past week he was, um, he was acquitted of all charges.
[33:22.020 --> 33:23.340]  I don't have the details in front of me.
[33:23.440 --> 33:25.060]  I, I, I believe you guys in the studio do though.
[33:25.420 --> 33:26.580]  Yeah, I have some details here.
[33:26.820 --> 33:44.520]  Uh, what's, what's interesting is that, uh, according to the, uh, Afton Poston, which is a news from Norway in English, uh, the court determined that it is not illegal to use DECSS code to watch DVD films obtained by legal means.
[33:45.400 --> 33:50.240]  So evidently you can still, you can still use that program there in that country.
[33:51.360 --> 33:53.500]  Now, when they say... Go ahead.
[33:53.800 --> 33:55.580]  I'm sorry, it's just such a simple statement.
[33:55.720 --> 33:57.140]  Can you, can you read that again, Jeff?
[33:57.160 --> 33:57.260]  Sure.
[33:57.460 --> 34:02.120]  It's a step, it seems to make so much sense, it's so logical, yet that's not the law in this country.
[34:02.860 --> 34:10.620]  The court determined that it is not illegal to use the DECSS code to watch DVD films obtained by legal means.
[34:11.120 --> 34:16.080]  Yeah, I mean, that's something that should be put up and, you know, hung on, on walls inside frames.
[34:16.720 --> 34:19.520]  You know, it's, uh, it's a simple, logical statement.
[34:19.780 --> 34:26.220]  And at no point during our situation did we ever advocate people obtaining DVDs through illegal means.
[34:26.840 --> 34:34.980]  Uh, this was always a program that was written so that people could use the DVDs that they obtained legally on the platform of their choice.
[34:35.320 --> 34:36.760]  That was the purpose of the program.
[34:36.880 --> 34:41.620]  Now, I heard a report last night on the DVC, which is rebroadcast on, uh, on NPR stations.
[34:42.140 --> 34:44.100]  Um, and I heard a report about this.
[34:44.520 --> 34:46.500]  And I have to say, it was woefully inaccurate.
[34:46.780 --> 34:57.060]  They, they said that, uh, DECSS was all about copying DVDs and that the Hollywood studios were upset because now they think the same thing's going to happen to them because, uh, you know, that, that's happened to them with MP3s.
[34:57.440 --> 35:06.320]  And they completely missed the, the real point of the story in that this gives consumers control over the technology that they have a legal right to.
[35:06.620 --> 35:07.920]  Uh, it's all about fair use.
[35:08.040 --> 35:10.040]  It's all about, uh, you know, across platforms.
[35:10.440 --> 35:12.540]  Uh, they understood that over there.
[35:12.680 --> 35:13.260]  They got it.
[35:13.460 --> 35:16.320]  You know, they, they, they seem to understand that in almost every place.
[35:16.780 --> 35:19.540]  And, uh, we need to, we need to make sure they understand it here.
[35:19.700 --> 35:36.480]  What I thought was fascinating about this whole legal process is that there was an actual delay in the process while they looked for a judge who was competent to understand the technology, which, uh, so they didn't have to deal with all these metaphors of digital crowbars and whatnot that we had over here.
[35:36.480 --> 35:40.560]  So I think, you know, when you actually understand what's going on, the, the, the answer is pretty clear.
[35:41.080 --> 35:47.740]  But, um, when you don't understand, you know, you, you're, you're faced with all these competing metaphors and it's hard to know who's right.
[35:48.340 --> 35:48.700]  Right.
[35:49.040 --> 35:49.240]  Yeah.
[35:49.260 --> 35:51.240]  You know, I had trouble with a lot of the metaphors myself.
[35:51.540 --> 35:55.180]  Uh, you know, when you speak in metaphors, you don't always get the point across.
[35:55.260 --> 35:56.320]  In fact, you very rarely do.
[35:56.960 --> 36:04.540]  Um, I'm very impressed with the Norwegian system where they actually spent the time to go out and make sure they got somebody who understood the technology.
[36:04.540 --> 36:06.560]  I think we can learn so much from that.
[36:07.240 --> 36:10.380]  Um, and let's hope that, um, that we fight this battle.
[36:10.740 --> 36:14.500]  Uh, this battle is fought and won so that we don't have to keep going through this.
[36:14.680 --> 36:29.100]  And this, uh, this victory was, was after the, uh, the, uh, the plaintiff, the prosecution, uh, had, had many times changed during the, during the trial changed, uh, what was it?
[36:29.160 --> 36:33.840]  They changed, uh, what they were charging him with or changed evidence, uh, how many times?
[36:36.500 --> 36:37.860]  Uh, gee, that's a good question.
[36:38.460 --> 36:39.940]  But you heard about that, Emmanuel.
[36:40.280 --> 36:41.500]  It was, uh, several times.
[36:42.000 --> 36:42.180]  Yeah.
[36:42.380 --> 36:47.240]  Well, I mean, they were, they were looking for just the right way to, uh, you know, to approach, to approach, uh, John Johansson.
[36:47.820 --> 36:54.240]  Um, and I, I don't think the people that were prosecuting really understood the technology themselves or what it was all about.
[36:54.540 --> 37:00.900]  Uh, and I, you know, I, I, I get that feeling increasingly talking to people, uh, who are sort of on the other side.
[37:01.000 --> 37:04.640]  They don't really, you know, they, they really believe it's about piracy.
[37:04.820 --> 37:08.620]  It's about copying, but, uh, the world has been pulled over their eyes.
[37:08.920 --> 37:11.300]  And once they understand what it's really about, it's different.
[37:11.400 --> 37:25.560]  The laws, uh, the laws there in, uh, in Norway are apparently, uh, uh, uh, the consumer laws are much more in favor of the consumer than of corporations as opposed to the other way around, which is the case in this country.
[37:27.180 --> 37:30.220]  The, uh, the register had, uh, an interesting article as well.
[37:30.500 --> 37:39.920]  Uh, they start off with saying the entertainment lobby has failed to persuade a Norwegian court to convict a teenager for creating a utility for playing back DVDs on his own computer.
[37:40.340 --> 37:42.040]  You know, I love the register.
[37:42.200 --> 37:43.220]  They always get it right.
[37:43.340 --> 37:44.660]  They understand what they're talking about.
[37:44.860 --> 37:46.960]  They've got that right sense of, uh, humor.
[37:47.520 --> 37:50.100]  You know, why can't there be more like the register?
[37:51.560 --> 37:52.140]  I'm sorry.
[37:52.220 --> 37:52.980]  I just had to say that.
[37:53.100 --> 37:53.260]  Yeah.
[37:53.380 --> 38:09.100]  The third, the third paragraph goes on to say Norwegian prosecutors acting largely on the behest of the Motion Picture Association of America argued in court that Johansson acted, uh, illegally in sharing his DECSS tool with others and distributing it via the internet.
[38:09.260 --> 38:13.400]  They claimed the DECSS utility made it easier to pirate DVDs.
[38:14.900 --> 38:15.380]  Hmm.
[38:16.180 --> 38:16.520]  Yeah.
[38:16.740 --> 38:25.240]  Of course, we're still enjoying from posting the DECSS code on our website, uh, because of the, uh, the outcome of the case that we were tried for back in 2000.
[38:25.940 --> 38:30.960]  I look forward to the day when that's overturned and when, uh, we don't have such silliness to worry about.
[38:31.400 --> 38:35.260]  Uh, it's, it's going to involve people standing up though and, uh, and, and fighting.
[38:35.500 --> 38:39.940]  You know, we, we don't make any progress by, um, by shying away from these things.
[38:40.060 --> 38:52.600]  And that sort of ties into the point I was trying to make last week with regards to people that we met overseas, wanting them to come here to the United States to our conferences to help, uh, help us with various issues, discussions and things like that.
[38:53.160 --> 39:00.940]  Most of the people that we talked to, um, uh, me, Jeff, Bernie, when we were over there expressed great fear coming to the United States for any reason.
[39:01.160 --> 39:04.220]  Uh, and that's the reputation that the states are, are getting.
[39:04.500 --> 39:08.660]  And it's really unfortunate and, uh, and, and harmful to all of us.
[39:08.960 --> 39:17.340]  We need to make sure people aren't afraid to come here, that they are willing to stand up for things that we believe are, are sacred rights.
[39:18.000 --> 39:23.380]  And, uh, we have to understand that if we don't do this, then we just lose the rights by default.
[39:23.780 --> 39:27.280]  So, you know, I speak to everybody over there who, uh, is expressing fear.
[39:27.680 --> 39:34.980]  Yes, you know, we're, we're afraid to, uh, there are things to be concerned about, but, um, but not addressing them is probably the worst thing we can do.
[39:36.840 --> 39:43.000]  And Emmanuel, one of the things you need to do is mention that you're, the, uh, you're listening to WBAI in New York.
[39:44.320 --> 39:44.720]  That's right.
[39:45.020 --> 39:47.360]  99.5 FM.
[39:48.360 --> 39:48.840]  In stereo.
[39:49.180 --> 39:50.280]  In stereo, yes.
[39:50.420 --> 39:51.300]  We have to get it all right.
[39:51.500 --> 39:52.520]  The full amount of watts.
[39:53.180 --> 39:53.380]  Uh-huh.
[39:54.100 --> 39:54.940]  Um, yeah.
[39:55.300 --> 39:59.600]  So, um, I guess we should, uh, maybe take phone calls, uh, 212-209-2900.
[39:59.760 --> 40:04.180]  Is that, is that, are there any other, uh, issues on the table that we need to discuss?
[40:04.440 --> 40:12.320]  We have a bit of news, uh, here, here in this country, there was what we think is, is good news in the California DVD case.
[40:12.580 --> 40:14.620]  Uh, Seraph, do you understand it at all?
[40:14.780 --> 40:17.260]  Well, it's a little confusing, but I'll, I'll do as best as I can.
[40:17.640 --> 40:24.040]  Um, there's a project called Livid, and this is one of the good legitimate uses of, uh, the DCSS code.
[40:24.040 --> 40:32.600]  It's a group of people who are attempting to make a, uh, piece of software that will let you play your DVDs on a Linux operating system.
[40:33.060 --> 40:50.380]  And of course, the DVD CCA, which controls, um, the content scrambling system, has thus far prevented that system from being licensed to, um, software makers, um, unless they're writing the software for a mainstream operating system, uh, Mac OS or Windows or something like that.
[40:51.140 --> 40:57.320]  And, um, so here's this, uh, here's this guy, Matthew Pavlovich, who's working on this project.
[40:57.620 --> 41:04.320]  And he's been, um, blocked from, um, I guess, distributing DCSS-related code on his website.
[41:05.040 --> 41:05.920]  Something like that.
[41:06.040 --> 41:06.720]  Something like that.
[41:06.800 --> 41:08.420]  By, by Sandra Day O'Connor.
[41:09.040 --> 41:09.100]  Right.
[41:09.200 --> 41:10.940]  Herself, who can apparently do such things.
[41:11.120 --> 41:13.120]  Yeah, you, you thought there were, uh, a few justices.
[41:13.320 --> 41:14.760]  Are, aren't there more than one nowadays?
[41:15.300 --> 41:15.940]  There's a bunch.
[41:16.080 --> 41:18.300]  But, you know, my understanding... Thank you very much.
[41:18.560 --> 41:23.800]  Uh, my understanding is that, um, um, he, he was not enjoined from actually posting the code.
[41:24.040 --> 41:27.620]  He was being threatened with a lawsuit, uh, by the DVD CCA.
[41:27.800 --> 41:30.720]  And what he was doing was challenging their jurisdiction.
[41:31.500 --> 41:35.600]  Uh, I believe the court ruled that, uh, yes, in fact, they do have jurisdiction.
[41:35.740 --> 41:38.600]  An appeals court ruled that no, no, in fact, they don't.
[41:38.820 --> 41:49.240]  Uh, what Sandra Day, what Sandra Day O'Connor did was, uh, step in and say, hold on a second while I look this over and find out if they, in fact, really do have, uh, jurisdiction over him.
[41:49.420 --> 41:53.340]  And a few days later, uh, she said, yeah, okay, whatever.
[41:54.060 --> 41:56.000]  Uh, I'm not sure if it quite does work.
[41:56.060 --> 41:56.200]  Right.
[41:56.300 --> 42:03.100]  And, and now she's thrown out to stay and he's willing to, uh, or he's capable now of, I guess, um, using the code whoever he pleases.
[42:03.680 --> 42:09.440]  Well, uh, temporarily until, until the, until the case is decided in, in, I think he's in, uh, where is he in Texas?
[42:09.440 --> 42:11.600]  I believe he's in some state other than California.
[42:12.220 --> 42:33.760]  Uh, what, what the DVD CCA alleged, uh, that Pavlovich did is they, they said that he misappropriated its trade secrets by posting the DCSS program on the livid website because, and they, they quote, uh, DCSS program embodies uses or substantial derivation of confidential proprietary information with the DVD CCA licenses.
[42:34.240 --> 42:37.720]  Now this, this, this, this, the federal day O'Connor decision was not about that at all.
[42:37.860 --> 42:39.020]  It was just about jurisdiction.
[42:39.620 --> 42:50.860]  And, and the, the, uh, DVD CCA, CCA tried to put all these cases under California law so they could just, you know, sue everybody in one jurisdiction and make it much easier for them.
[42:50.940 --> 43:00.260]  And this is a victory from a legal standpoint that it doesn't let the emotion picture you should get away with suing people on the other side of the country to make it very difficult for them for the defend themselves.
[43:01.520 --> 43:11.460]  It was, um, interesting too, because listening to, um, various, um, radio reports of this, uh, it was reported as a defeat for the DVD industry.
[43:12.020 --> 43:16.760]  And, uh, this before the John Johansson defeat for the DVD industry.
[43:17.240 --> 43:24.820]  So, um, to the average consumer, it appears that the, um, the picture, uh, industry is, uh, suffering some legal defeats.
[43:27.060 --> 43:28.580]  Well, let's hope that trend continues.
[43:29.160 --> 43:29.640]  Jim.
[43:29.820 --> 43:30.020]  Yeah.
[43:30.160 --> 43:31.780]  For the, for the right reasons, for the right reasons.
[43:31.840 --> 43:41.000]  Of course, you know, we all, uh, believe that, uh, people who put things out are entitled to, uh, you know, to, um, to benefit from their artistic work.
[43:41.220 --> 43:43.500]  But, uh, what, that's not what we've been seeing in this particular case.
[43:43.600 --> 43:47.700]  We've been seeing all kinds of horrible, uh, twisting of that, uh, of that theory.
[43:48.360 --> 43:52.380]  So, uh, I, uh, I, I think we're moving in the right direction, but there's a lot of work left to be done.
[43:53.480 --> 43:56.300]  Emmanuel, uh, Jim had an interesting, uh, article with him.
[43:56.520 --> 44:04.380]  Yeah, this is pretty much, uh, uh, uh, just, uh, relating to, uh, an apparent crime, but there's a little hidden paragraph that's of interest.
[44:04.660 --> 44:16.220]  Uh, from last Friday's Times, uh, 19-year-old, uh, University of Chicago, Chicago student, was arrested in L.A., charged with stealing trade secrets from DirecTV, the nation's leading satellite TV provider.
[44:16.480 --> 44:20.580]  Uh, he was working for a law firm, Jones, Day, Revis, and Pogue.
[44:20.740 --> 44:28.640]  His name is Igor Serabriani, a sophomore at University of Chicago, and he, uh, copied a number of, uh, documents.
[44:28.820 --> 44:31.340]  He was working for an independent documents imaging company.
[44:31.340 --> 44:37.720]  He posted these on websites devoted to hacking, uh, smart cards for satellite TV.
[44:38.320 --> 44:42.580]  Uh, but the interesting paragraph is, uh, as follows.
[44:43.300 --> 44:48.700]  Uh, satellite piracy is a huge underground industry, estimated only tens of millions of dollars.
[44:49.000 --> 44:57.060]  Many of the pirate vendors are based in Canada, where until this year, the legal status of pirating American satellite television was ambiguous.
[44:58.480 --> 45:05.380]  Uh, that's, uh, bad news for a number of people who, uh, may, uh, get their, uh, satellite TV from Canada, would it not be?
[45:06.060 --> 45:23.380]  Uh, no, actually, it's the other way around because, um, uh, in Canada, they, uh, they issued a ruling, uh, concerning people who are receiving American satellite channels, uh, by, by pirating, um, uh, cards or even by using, uh, gray, gray area type of,
[45:23.560 --> 45:25.740]  uh, of systems where you have an American address.
[45:26.120 --> 45:27.880]  They said that that's something that's not legal.
[45:28.160 --> 45:31.400]  Uh, I believe no such case has been ruled on in the United States yet.
[45:31.580 --> 45:37.820]  So basically, if you're receiving an American signal from DirecTV edition network over Canada, you are technically breaking the law.
[45:38.800 --> 45:41.800]  But what if, what if you're receiving Canadian signal in the U.S.
[45:41.880 --> 45:43.020]  by using a Canadian address?
[45:43.220 --> 45:46.140]  Well, like I said, I don't think that's specifically been ruled upon yet.
[45:46.320 --> 45:57.700]  It's, uh, if you, if you take the logic of, uh, of various industries, I'm sure you'll reach the conclusion that they're going to say that's illegal as well, just like they say skipping commercials is equivalent to theft.
[45:58.360 --> 46:01.080]  So it's, um, it's not much of a reach for them to reach that conclusion.
[46:01.300 --> 46:07.200]  It's just not very many people in the United States are actually going to the effort of trying to receive Canadian signals.
[46:07.240 --> 46:09.560]  And I'm just one of those rare people that are doing that.
[46:11.080 --> 46:11.480]  Okay.
[46:12.700 --> 46:14.120]  But that is a very interesting case.
[46:14.260 --> 46:21.680]  And the problem I have with that, this guy took documents that he had access to, uh, inside of his job, if I understand correctly.
[46:21.800 --> 46:21.920]  Right.
[46:22.400 --> 46:26.660]  And, uh, use proprietary knowledge or, or access to this information.
[46:27.320 --> 46:33.280]  It's not the same thing as, uh, as coming across the information someplace or spreading the knowledge, uh, itself.
[46:33.500 --> 46:33.820]  Right.
[46:34.040 --> 46:47.220]  Uh, for instance, if somebody were to send us a whole lot of information on how direct TV works and how their system can be defeated, obviously we would print that information because we print a hacker magazine and, uh, we would not hesitate to do something like that.
[46:47.280 --> 46:48.740]  And that's true of just about any system.
[46:49.100 --> 47:02.600]  Uh, if, if, um, if they came after us, uh, and, and charged us with the kind of things that charging this guy with, I think it'd be a very different story because you're not talking about accessing documents that, uh, that you really shouldn't be accessing.
[47:02.920 --> 47:06.800]  Uh, you're talking about things that have been given to you by an anonymous source.
[47:07.320 --> 47:08.960]  So it's, it's a different type of a thing.
[47:09.700 --> 47:12.480]  And isn't there some irony, irony in this case as well?
[47:12.720 --> 47:26.180]  Uh, wasn't direct TV or it's a parent company accused of, uh, sharing or, or, or facilitating the sharing of information on how its competitors, the satellite TV system could be cracked?
[47:27.040 --> 47:28.060]  That I had not heard.
[47:28.300 --> 47:32.460]  Uh, well, they only have one competitor on this network and they, they've been trying to merge with them.
[47:32.620 --> 47:34.760]  So I don't, I don't quite know where that stands.
[47:37.120 --> 47:38.800]  Are you ready to take some calls Emmanuel?
[47:39.020 --> 47:39.740]  Yes, I think we should.
[47:39.980 --> 47:40.700]  I, I, I, again, I'm sorry.
[47:40.800 --> 47:41.960]  I don't know how badly the noises.
[47:42.060 --> 47:44.880]  These people are, are going nuts, moving the chairs around.
[47:45.080 --> 47:48.760]  Um, I've, I've been watching them and they, they keep cleaning the same tables.
[47:48.980 --> 47:53.020]  These, these mall guards, they keep cleaning tables that nobody has been sitting at for an hour.
[47:53.220 --> 47:56.360]  They come by every five minutes and, and wipe it off and move the chairs around.
[47:56.600 --> 47:59.800]  It's like they're some kind of robotic, robotic creatures or something.
[47:59.920 --> 48:02.540]  Maybe they're trying to give you undercover, undercover federal agents.
[48:03.300 --> 48:07.480]  Well, I don't know what they're trying to, they'd get a much better signal if they listen to the radio, but, uh, I don't know.
[48:07.720 --> 48:08.920]  Maybe you should buy a burger.
[48:09.760 --> 48:14.360]  Uh, well, I did buy, I bought a sandwich a while ago, but, uh, apparently that's, I have to buy something else now.
[48:15.900 --> 48:16.300]  All right.
[48:16.400 --> 48:21.500]  Let, uh, by the way, do either of you know a Jeff, uh, storm bringer?
[48:22.820 --> 48:24.240]  Uh, yeah, I know a storm bringer.
[48:24.340 --> 48:24.720]  Yeah, we do.
[48:24.780 --> 48:25.320]  We, we both do.
[48:25.620 --> 48:25.900]  Okay.
[48:26.140 --> 48:27.560]  Evidently he's on one of the lines.
[48:27.680 --> 48:28.540]  We don't know which one.
[48:29.120 --> 48:29.440]  Okay.
[48:29.440 --> 48:29.640]  Wow.
[48:29.660 --> 48:30.140]  We get him.
[48:30.300 --> 48:30.560]  Okay.
[48:30.820 --> 48:32.440]  He's, um, he's a, he's a good guy.
[48:32.580 --> 48:33.880]  We've talked to him over the, over the years.
[48:34.180 --> 48:36.500]  Uh, he had an unfortunate run in with the law, I believe.
[48:38.040 --> 48:41.420]  Hopefully, um, hopefully, uh, he'll be, uh, free sometime soon.
[48:41.960 --> 48:42.400]  All right.
[48:42.460 --> 48:44.400]  Let's, uh, let's, let's see if we can't get, get him.
[48:45.180 --> 48:46.200]  Hello, you're on the air.
[48:46.840 --> 48:47.180]  Hello?
[48:47.380 --> 48:47.680]  Hello.
[48:48.020 --> 48:48.220]  Hello.
[48:48.360 --> 48:48.700]  Who's this?
[48:49.260 --> 48:49.980]  My name's Jeff.
[48:50.080 --> 48:50.400]  Who's this?
[48:50.540 --> 48:51.880]  Jeff, this is storm bringer.
[48:52.020 --> 48:52.380]  Okay.
[48:52.780 --> 48:53.260]  We lucked out.
[48:53.280 --> 48:54.320]  I'm on the first try.
[48:54.620 --> 48:55.200]  All righty.
[48:55.280 --> 48:55.640]  Emmanuel.
[48:55.940 --> 48:56.620]  How are you doing?
[48:56.760 --> 48:56.960]  Bernie.
[48:57.240 --> 48:57.260]  Yes.
[48:57.720 --> 48:58.180]  How are you doing?
[48:58.320 --> 48:58.660]  Storm bringer.
[48:58.880 --> 48:59.600]  I'm doing all right.
[48:59.640 --> 49:00.600]  You guys getting my mail?
[49:01.240 --> 49:03.720]  Uh, I got a letter from you and I think Bernie, did you get a letter?
[49:04.160 --> 49:04.520]  Yes.
[49:05.400 --> 49:09.580]  Happy new year, although it's probably not as happy as you'd like it to be where you are.
[49:09.720 --> 49:11.860]  Well, Storm bringer, tell us, tell us where you are.
[49:12.300 --> 49:14.020]  Uh, I'm in federal prison right now.
[49:14.240 --> 49:21.880]  Uh, I'm in here on non, uh, computer related, but it all started from computer related, uh, started over my web server.
[49:25.180 --> 49:44.500]  Um, I had a web server that, uh, broadcasted the local PD in the DC metro area and the local PD got really torqued off and harassed me for years and eventually over a domestic, uh, argument, they came in and, uh, arrested me on trumped up charges and,
[49:44.500 --> 49:48.640]  uh, they found some, uh, other things and, uh, here I sit.
[49:48.840 --> 49:51.060]  But, uh, it was an illegal arrest and all that.
[49:51.400 --> 49:53.080]  What, what kind of time are you looking at?
[49:53.380 --> 49:55.000]  Uh, I got 22 years.
[49:55.460 --> 49:56.080]  Oh my goodness.
[49:56.080 --> 49:57.020]  I'm 22 years.
[49:57.260 --> 49:59.380]  I got three, uh, years in on that right now.
[50:00.220 --> 50:01.940]  Anyways, uh, so much about my life.
[50:02.000 --> 50:09.400]  I just wanted to call and tell, uh, that you guys are doing a really good job with the show and, uh, don't forget about the, uh, little people who are still on the inside.
[50:09.920 --> 50:10.280]  Okay.
[50:10.360 --> 50:17.560]  Well, just remember you always have a voice through us and we're always here for you and we hope we can continue to make things a little bit better for you inside there.
[50:18.120 --> 50:18.480]  Okay.
[50:18.680 --> 50:22.220]  Um, if you guys can send me a letter or manual, I'd like to get a more direct mail path for you.
[50:22.620 --> 50:22.900]  Uh huh.
[50:23.280 --> 50:23.540]  Okay.
[50:23.600 --> 50:25.140]  Well, the one you use does get to me.
[50:25.220 --> 50:27.100]  It's just, I'm not around very often.
[50:28.140 --> 50:29.440]  I'm in Atlanta right now.
[50:29.620 --> 50:33.140]  So, um, it's, uh, it'll be a little while before I actually get back to the office.
[50:33.620 --> 50:33.900]  Okay.
[50:34.020 --> 50:35.540]  I don't want to bring your, uh, air time up.
[50:35.540 --> 50:37.060]  I want to, uh, get some more callers on you.
[50:37.160 --> 50:43.480]  I just wanted to call in and say hello and, uh, tell, uh, Kevin, uh, I wish him luck on, uh, being released on the 20th.
[50:44.040 --> 50:44.320]  Okay.
[50:44.360 --> 50:44.780]  We'll do that.
[50:44.860 --> 50:45.260]  Hang in there.
[50:45.400 --> 50:45.640]  All right.
[50:45.760 --> 50:46.100]  Take care.
[50:46.340 --> 50:47.140]  Good to hear your voice.
[50:47.260 --> 50:47.940]  All right, Bernie.
[50:48.260 --> 50:48.380]  Bye.
[50:48.500 --> 50:48.820]  Take care.
[50:49.080 --> 50:49.140]  Bye.
[50:49.180 --> 50:49.920]  Thanks for calling Jeff.
[50:51.660 --> 50:54.380]  I'm with him at, uh, at summer cons of years past.
[50:54.900 --> 50:58.740]  I should say, uh, Thurmbringer is an extremely knowledgeable radio hacker.
[50:59.060 --> 51:03.160]  Uh, everything to do with, uh, radio, two-way radio, he's, uh, extremely knowledgeable.
[51:03.440 --> 51:12.140]  And, uh, that, uh, unfortunately, uh, earned him some unwanted attention from, uh, certain law enforcement agencies in the Virginia area.
[51:12.360 --> 51:14.200]  That's quite a compliment coming from you.
[51:15.380 --> 51:15.640]  Yeah.
[51:15.740 --> 51:20.020]  Well, I can't hold a candle to Thurmbringer's, uh, radio hacking knowledge.
[51:20.300 --> 51:20.700]  Wow.
[51:21.000 --> 51:22.020]  I've seen him try, too.
[51:23.720 --> 51:24.320]  All right.
[51:25.660 --> 51:26.720]  Hello, you're on the air.
[51:27.780 --> 51:28.120]  Oh, yeah.
[51:28.140 --> 51:28.340]  Hi.
[51:29.020 --> 51:29.780]  How are you doing?
[51:30.480 --> 51:33.660]  Uh, quick compliment and, uh, a quick question.
[51:34.400 --> 51:35.960]  Uh, compliment to 2,600.
[51:37.020 --> 51:43.540]  Um, during one of the fundraisers a couple of times ago, they promised me a shirt and it didn't come.
[51:43.660 --> 51:44.780]  It was maybe out of stock or whatever.
[51:45.040 --> 51:48.260]  Anyway, like two weeks ago in the mail, lo and behold, here comes the shirt.
[51:48.480 --> 51:51.180]  So, I didn't request it or anything and there it was.
[51:51.300 --> 51:57.960]  So, I really have, uh, uh, I couldn't say, uh, anything, uh, but high accolades for 2,600.
[51:58.440 --> 51:59.040]  Well, thanks.
[51:59.120 --> 52:01.700]  You know, it's, it's something, we may be slow sometimes.
[52:02.060 --> 52:03.680]  It may take us a while, but we never forget.
[52:04.140 --> 52:07.960]  In the end, at some point, it might be, you know, months, years down the road sometimes.
[52:08.520 --> 52:13.760]  You know, I got the, uh, H, uh, H double two or whatever it was.
[52:13.880 --> 52:14.900]  This summer, it was fantastic.
[52:15.300 --> 52:16.100]  You got your H2K tickets?
[52:16.260 --> 52:16.860]  Is that what you got?
[52:16.880 --> 52:17.340]  No, no, no.
[52:17.460 --> 52:19.200]  I, I, I, I came, I came down there.
[52:19.320 --> 52:20.200]  It was a real great show.
[52:20.360 --> 52:21.640]  That was, I got there for the whole weekend.
[52:21.820 --> 52:22.360]  That was fantastic.
[52:22.780 --> 52:23.040]  Great.
[52:23.180 --> 52:24.500]  Anyway, uh, quick question.
[52:24.760 --> 52:26.020]  My friend's going to Europe tomorrow.
[52:26.120 --> 52:29.620]  He's got AT&T, uh, uh, uh, uh, what do you call it?
[52:29.720 --> 52:30.220]  Cell phone.
[52:31.320 --> 52:37.640]  Um, is he out of luck or is there an easy way for him to use a cell phone over there like a double billed by two continents?
[52:37.920 --> 52:40.540]  Does he have a GSM, AT&T GSM service?
[52:41.120 --> 52:43.000]  I don't think he signed up for something like that.
[52:43.080 --> 52:44.040]  Is that what's required in order?
[52:44.380 --> 52:47.900]  Yeah, you would need, uh, everything in Europe is GSM, so he would need to have a GSM service.
[52:48.420 --> 53:00.900]  Uh, it's, he's not out of luck because what he can always do is get one of those, uh, disposable phones over there, uh, where basically you pay, you pay about, I think, between $50 and $100 if you get a phone that, uh, that you can use to call anywhere.
[53:01.660 --> 53:05.560]  And, uh, you don't pay for incoming minutes, but someone has to pay to call overseas to call you.
[53:06.120 --> 53:06.700]  Right, right.
[53:07.200 --> 53:07.620]  That's good.
[53:07.740 --> 53:09.060]  I'll use my phone over there.
[53:09.320 --> 53:12.960]  Uh, I have, uh, VoiceStream and I have the, uh, the phone, the time board.
[53:13.280 --> 53:15.540]  Uh, and I was just, uh, it's really good.
[53:15.700 --> 53:18.460]  You're able to switch the frequency and the phone works.
[53:18.780 --> 53:20.060]  Uh, it, it costs money.
[53:20.180 --> 53:26.100]  It costs about, I think, a dollar a minute roaming, but it's a good emergency thing if somebody needs to reach you or if you need to reach somebody else.
[53:26.680 --> 53:35.340]  Uh, so I highly recommend, uh, if you get a GSM provider, get the, uh, the world roaming feature if they have such a thing and make sure you get a phone that can be switched to a different frequency.
[53:35.900 --> 53:36.220]  Right.
[53:36.320 --> 53:38.600]  Well, if he starts traveling worldwide, I'm sure he'll do that.
[53:38.740 --> 53:39.360]  It sounds pretty cool.
[53:39.960 --> 53:40.280]  Yeah.
[53:40.560 --> 53:40.880]  Okay.
[53:40.880 --> 53:42.660]  Just wanted to share that good news.
[53:42.840 --> 53:43.160]  All right.
[53:43.160 --> 53:43.520]  Thanks.
[53:43.860 --> 53:44.100]  Thanks.
[53:46.740 --> 53:47.640]  Hello, you're on the air.
[53:48.160 --> 53:48.560]  Yes.
[53:48.660 --> 53:51.420]  I'm going to summarize what I'm going to say and then I'm going to say it.
[53:51.640 --> 53:53.240]  I'd like to talk about you promise.
[53:53.680 --> 53:59.600]  Then I'd like to talk about, uh, junk mail and, uh, uh, channel 13 and, um, underwriting.
[54:00.140 --> 54:02.660]  Rebel, we don't have enough time to even talk about one of those things.
[54:02.760 --> 54:03.340]  So make it fast.
[54:03.820 --> 54:04.220]  Really fast.
[54:04.800 --> 54:05.340]  Um, all right.
[54:05.360 --> 54:08.380]  I'll talk about, uh, uh, uh, channel 13.
[54:09.640 --> 54:11.740]  I heard that too.
[54:12.140 --> 54:13.680]  Oh, that was, uh, that was, that was me.
[54:14.220 --> 54:15.320]  It's going on also.
[54:16.220 --> 54:16.980]  Aerotones automatically.
[54:17.420 --> 54:20.500]  And then since when does channel 13 accept, uh, commercials?
[54:20.680 --> 54:21.980]  I thought it was a non-commercial station.
[54:22.360 --> 54:32.000]  They've had commercials for quite some time and not, not, not the same kind of commercials that you'd see on channel five, but, uh, they've, they've been adding, uh, they've been pushing the line more and more every year.
[54:32.400 --> 54:35.640]  And it's very distressing, especially considering they, they keep asking for money from people.
[54:35.800 --> 54:41.340]  But it's also, you know, in a way you can't blame them because in this country, so little money is allocated for such things.
[54:41.520 --> 54:46.300]  Uh, if you look at, you know, another land like, uh, like England, for instance, the BBC gets a ton of money.
[54:46.380 --> 54:50.320]  Of course they get it by, by threatening people to pay for their TVs or get arrested.
[54:50.980 --> 54:57.260]  Um, but, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a woefully inadequate, inadequate kind of, uh, uh, kind of television that they provide.
[54:57.480 --> 54:57.920]  And they really, okay.
[54:58.120 --> 55:06.700]  And also I'd like, also I'd like to mention that when I get mailed a junk mail, all you have to do is put return to sender and bring it right back to the post office.
[55:06.940 --> 55:07.820]  You don't have to throw it away.
[55:07.880 --> 55:10.740]  Just put return to sender, bring it right back to the post office.
[55:10.840 --> 55:11.420]  That's what I do.
[55:11.680 --> 55:14.100]  I'd be writing all day if I did that for every piece of my own.
[55:14.720 --> 55:19.000]  Well, also I'd like to play, um, you promise has this thing.
[55:19.220 --> 55:19.580]  I don't know.
[55:19.660 --> 55:20.920]  I don't know if you know about you promise.
[55:21.160 --> 55:24.720]  You see, they have this thing where you have to sign up on the website.
[55:24.720 --> 55:31.720]  It's just a thing to get you to, to give you their name and address and Social Security number so that they can send you junk mail.
[55:31.940 --> 55:33.800]  These things are being advertised now.
[55:34.420 --> 55:39.500]  In order to save for somebody else's college education, join YouPromise.
[55:40.160 --> 55:41.480]  I don't know if you've ever heard this.
[55:42.140 --> 55:43.060]  No, I never have.
[55:43.640 --> 55:49.300]  All right, now let me play you a long greeting that I have to sort the recordings that come on.
[55:49.880 --> 55:53.060]  Jeff, I think it's time to move on to another call.
[55:53.240 --> 55:54.740]  Okay, thank you for your call.
[55:55.220 --> 55:58.340]  As soon as he said long greeting, that was the key for me.
[55:58.340 --> 55:59.640]  All right, we'll take one more.
[55:59.940 --> 56:00.240]  Yeah.
[56:01.160 --> 56:02.160]  Hello, you're on the air.
[56:03.260 --> 56:03.900]  Yeah, hello.
[56:04.360 --> 56:06.220]  Okay, for Emmanuel, very quick.
[56:06.660 --> 56:09.320]  Is Emmanuel who flew back from Washington to Newark?
[56:09.700 --> 56:10.060]  Yes.
[56:10.060 --> 56:10.860]  That was me, yes.
[56:11.240 --> 56:12.940]  Okay, you didn't fly on United.
[56:12.940 --> 56:16.620]  You flew on Atlantic Coast Aviation, which wears a cloak.
[56:16.740 --> 56:18.880]  It makes it appear that it's United Airlines.
[56:19.080 --> 56:22.980]  But it actually says United Express on the plane, but that's Atlantic Coast Aviation.
[56:23.140 --> 56:25.720]  You're absolutely correct, and I stand corrected on that.
[56:25.720 --> 56:29.440]  It's sort of like your affiliates and how they deal with Pacifica.
[56:29.580 --> 56:31.140]  It's not really Pacifica, they're affiliates.
[56:31.440 --> 56:34.880]  Yeah, sort of like that, but it was still scary, no matter who was trying to claim.
[56:35.000 --> 56:44.300]  And for Bernie S., there was a prison guard who was just found guilty out at the Northampton County Prison for embezzling the accounts.
[56:44.840 --> 56:50.760]  So if you were missing a $5 or $10 or $50 or more, or even $500, it was him that did it.
[56:50.760 --> 56:53.420]  He was embezzling money that was sent in for the prisoners.
[56:53.940 --> 56:55.440]  You recall his name?
[56:56.540 --> 57:02.560]  Yeah, well, and he was convicted of embezzling $17,000 out of prisoners' accounts.
[57:02.800 --> 57:04.820]  He's facing, I think, two or three years in jail.
[57:05.200 --> 57:20.720]  You know, I had two prison guards at that facility tell me that they had to use and enjoyed using cloned cellular phones to make free phone calls, which I thought was really ironic, because I was never allowed to have done that, just because that's a software that could be used for that.
[57:20.860 --> 57:22.300]  And I was the one who was behind bars.
[57:23.040 --> 57:23.680]  Yeah, exactly.
[57:24.100 --> 57:26.280]  As this caller said, this was the guy that was doing it.
[57:26.300 --> 57:28.020]  This was the guy that was doing it and got caught.
[57:28.380 --> 57:32.960]  There's probably a lot more prison guards that are doing such things, and you've really got to keep your eyes open.
[57:33.380 --> 57:33.940]  Okay, amen.
[57:34.300 --> 57:36.360]  Okay, and have a nice...
[57:36.360 --> 57:37.140]  I wish I...
[57:37.140 --> 57:41.000]  Guys, give me an email number, or not an email number, but a fax number.
[57:41.140 --> 57:44.660]  I can send you these articles, and when they appear about the Northampton County Prison.
[57:45.180 --> 57:47.000]  Okay, I'll give you a couple of fax numbers.
[57:47.240 --> 57:50.740]  I'll give you a fax number right now, and other email information as we're signing off.
[57:51.220 --> 57:52.280]  Thanks for your call.
[57:53.500 --> 57:55.000]  And I guess, Jeff, we're out of time?
[57:55.200 --> 57:56.220]  Yeah, we're out of time.
[57:56.260 --> 57:59.640]  We've got to go, and we'll talk to you again next week, wherever you are.
[57:59.900 --> 58:00.900]  Let me give the fax number.
[58:01.120 --> 58:01.280]  Go ahead.
[58:01.640 --> 58:05.980]  It's area code 631-474-2677, if you have any interesting things to fax us.
[58:06.200 --> 58:20.600]  Now, for those people who want to meet up with us as the Midnick Liberation Tour continues, Atlanta right now will be heading to New Orleans and points west, and over the country, email downtime, as in freedom, downtime, without the freedom, downtime at 2600.com.
[58:20.720 --> 58:26.760]  Let us know who you are, where you are, how to reach you, and if we're going through your neck of the woods, we'll try and get in touch.
[58:27.560 --> 58:28.320]  Give me the email.
[58:28.540 --> 58:28.780]  Nothing.
[58:29.560 --> 58:30.120]  Excuse me.
[58:30.180 --> 58:30.880]  The area code again?
[58:31.780 --> 58:33.320]  The area code for the fax machine?
[58:33.680 --> 58:33.840]  Yeah.
[58:35.140 --> 58:36.760]  631-474-2677.
[58:38.280 --> 58:38.680]  01.
[58:39.020 --> 58:39.240]  Okay.
[58:39.880 --> 58:40.280]  631.
[58:40.940 --> 58:41.280]  Long Island.
[58:41.600 --> 58:41.840]  3-1.
[58:41.960 --> 58:42.480]  Okay, all right.
[58:42.580 --> 58:43.160]  Everybody's mumbling.
[58:43.300 --> 58:43.860]  Okay, thank you.
[58:45.140 --> 58:45.820]  Bye-bye.
[58:46.440 --> 58:47.920]  Okay, Bernie, we'll see you.
[58:48.080 --> 58:48.700]  We'll talk to you.
[58:48.800 --> 58:49.200]  Take care.
[58:49.660 --> 58:50.040]  Good show.
[58:50.700 --> 58:51.680]  See you next week.
[58:52.000 --> 58:52.420]  All right.
[58:52.820 --> 58:53.300]  Bye-bye.
[59:18.940 --> 59:26.640]  Several centuries after reaching Easter Island, the people had cut down every tree and turned a lush tropical paradise into a desert island.
[59:27.160 --> 59:34.960]  Larry Gonick opened the Cartoon Guide to the Environment with that story, and he'll be on Ecologic Tuesday, January 14th, 11 a.m.
[59:34.960 --> 59:40.140]  Is Easter Island in a microcosm of the planet Earth, or can we reverse that trend?
[59:40.720 --> 59:46.440]  Join me, Ken Gale, and Larry Gonick for conversation and humor on the global environment.
[59:46.840 --> 59:54.060]  Tune in to 99.5 WBAI-FM New York on Tuesday, January 14th at 11 a.m.
[59:54.520 --> 59:54.660]  Tune in.
[59:54.700 --> 59:54.800]  Tune in.
[59:54.820 --> 59:54.860]  Tune in.
[59:54.880 --> 59:54.960]  Tune in.