[00:01.160 --> 00:06.620]  Activists and supporters hope this will bring about a final victory for equal rights for women.
[00:06.820 --> 00:10.940]  In St. Petersburg, Florida, for Free Speech Radio News, I'm Beth Wolfe.
[00:18.330 --> 00:24.510]  It's 6.59 and 48 seconds coming up on WBAI here in New York, 99.5 FM.
[00:25.050 --> 00:29.670]  In a few seconds, stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:35.040 --> 00:39.500]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:40.540 --> 00:45.000]  I've got myself all shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:45.980 --> 00:53.320]  We couldn't get much worse, but did we bounce as I said it straight for worse?
[00:53.840 --> 00:56.840]  I hope that's understood, but did we bounce?
[01:39.640 --> 01:44.200]  Good evening, and welcome to Off the Hook.
[01:45.380 --> 01:46.620]  Emmanuel, are you there?
[01:46.620 --> 01:47.520]  I'm here.
[01:47.620 --> 01:48.220]  Can you hear me now?
[01:49.100 --> 01:49.700]  We can.
[01:50.260 --> 01:50.560]  Okay.
[01:50.900 --> 01:51.720]  I can't hear a thing.
[01:52.320 --> 01:53.540]  Jeff can, but we can.
[01:54.160 --> 01:54.980]  We hear him.
[01:55.060 --> 01:55.700]  Who can't hear?
[01:55.860 --> 01:56.560]  Okay, I can.
[01:56.640 --> 01:57.180]  I've got it now.
[01:57.560 --> 01:58.220]  You can hear?
[01:58.360 --> 01:59.140]  Yes, I can hear.
[01:59.480 --> 02:00.740]  Now the listeners can't hear, though.
[02:01.180 --> 02:03.220]  Well, that's their problem.
[02:03.520 --> 02:05.000]  Oh, no, they're just not listening.
[02:05.120 --> 02:05.560]  I get it.
[02:05.640 --> 02:05.860]  Okay.
[02:06.080 --> 02:06.480]  Well, hey.
[02:07.020 --> 02:08.920]  All right, another week of Off the Hook is on the air.
[02:09.660 --> 02:17.460]  I'm here in Monterey, California, on the way down to Los Angeles, sitting in the car again, because it's probably the safest place to be.
[02:18.320 --> 02:19.580]  I told you on a cell phone.
[02:20.180 --> 02:21.980]  What did I miss in New York this week?
[02:22.000 --> 02:23.260]  I understand it's pretty cold.
[02:23.720 --> 02:24.780]  It's cold and windy.
[02:25.280 --> 02:25.940]  Well, that's good.
[02:26.100 --> 02:28.480]  If it were 20 degrees warmer, it would be cold.
[02:28.480 --> 02:29.640]  It's freezing.
[02:30.040 --> 02:31.180]  It's, like, below freezing.
[02:31.400 --> 02:32.680]  It's 12 degrees Fahrenheit.
[02:33.060 --> 02:33.960]  Well, wait a minute, wait a minute.
[02:34.220 --> 02:39.840]  Nostradamus said that when Kevin Mitnick was finally off probation, it would be colder than a witch's, you know what.
[02:40.000 --> 02:42.020]  And, damn it, if that prediction ain't true.
[02:42.720 --> 02:44.580]  Well, what you've mentioned is, in fact, true.
[02:44.720 --> 02:47.360]  Kevin Mitnick is off supervised release, we're happy to say.
[02:47.980 --> 02:50.480]  And do I hear a round of applause over there in New York?
[02:51.620 --> 02:52.020]  Okay.
[02:52.800 --> 02:53.740]  I thought so.
[02:55.160 --> 03:01.040]  Well, it's great because I was with him in the Bay Area, which is where the event took place.
[03:01.140 --> 03:02.200]  Good over the piece of Tech TV.
[03:02.720 --> 03:03.840]  Some of you may have seen it.
[03:03.900 --> 03:04.700]  Some of you may not have.
[03:04.820 --> 03:06.240]  And I don't know who's better off.
[03:07.160 --> 03:08.380]  It was a fine show.
[03:09.160 --> 03:11.040]  It was a bit of fun.
[03:11.620 --> 03:15.760]  In fact, let me pick up this other line because it's Kevin calling right now.
[03:16.100 --> 03:17.140]  I'll give you a man for a few minutes.
[03:17.480 --> 03:17.840]  Okay.
[03:19.400 --> 03:19.940]  Let's see.
[03:20.040 --> 03:21.780]  We can talk about a bunch of things.
[03:22.480 --> 03:27.240]  We've got DVD John is facing a retrial.
[03:27.400 --> 03:34.100]  Even though last week we reported that he was going to be acquitted on all counts, he's now going to...
[03:34.100 --> 03:37.940]  They're actually going to come back and try and get him again.
[03:38.240 --> 03:41.520]  This is our Norwegian friend who invented DECSS?
[03:42.060 --> 03:43.120]  That's who it is.
[03:43.260 --> 03:45.720]  This has been going on for a long time, hasn't it?
[03:45.920 --> 03:46.200]  Yes.
[03:46.380 --> 03:48.660]  This started when he was, what, 16?
[03:48.840 --> 03:49.720]  Now he's 19?
[03:49.720 --> 03:50.520]  He's 19.
[03:51.480 --> 03:57.660]  And the thing that amazed me is when I printed the picture, I took pictures of him at H2K2.
[03:58.060 --> 04:02.420]  And later, when I printed the picture out, I mean, you can tell he's matured so much.
[04:02.580 --> 04:03.420]  He's grown.
[04:04.780 --> 04:05.920]  It's been a long time.
[04:06.180 --> 04:07.500]  Is he facing the same charges?
[04:08.040 --> 04:09.200]  You know these things last week?
[04:09.240 --> 04:09.640]  Yes.
[04:09.780 --> 04:10.660]  It's the same charges.
[04:11.160 --> 04:12.360]  Let me just break in here.
[04:12.560 --> 04:12.760]  Sure.
[04:12.800 --> 04:12.940]  Go ahead.
[04:13.140 --> 04:13.680]  Let's talk to Kevin.
[04:13.820 --> 04:15.300]  Kevin is going to be calling in.
[04:15.300 --> 04:16.120]  And we'll just have him.
[04:16.120 --> 04:16.940]  He's on.
[04:17.020 --> 04:17.140]  He's on.
[04:17.140 --> 04:17.320]  He's on.
[04:17.440 --> 04:18.200]  Hey, how are you doing?
[04:18.340 --> 04:19.040]  How are you doing, Emmanuel?
[04:19.480 --> 04:20.160]  Hey, Kevin.
[04:20.240 --> 04:20.600]  How are you doing?
[04:20.700 --> 04:21.700]  Where exactly are you now?
[04:21.840 --> 04:24.960]  I'm in C-Net's studio in San Francisco on 2nd Street.
[04:25.500 --> 04:26.720]  Ah, so you're still in San Francisco.
[04:26.740 --> 04:28.720]  We were going to race down to Los Angeles.
[04:28.860 --> 04:30.060]  We're taking the Pacific Coast Highway.
[04:30.320 --> 04:31.480]  You were going to take Route 5.
[04:32.360 --> 04:32.720]  Yeah.
[04:32.940 --> 04:37.480]  So, in fact, after the show, Darcy is on her way here.
[04:38.000 --> 04:40.700]  And then we're going to drive down to Los Angeles.
[04:41.460 --> 04:41.700]  Uh-huh.
[04:42.320 --> 04:42.520]  Wow.
[04:42.640 --> 04:47.500]  You'll probably still win, though, because if you could have been on the Pacific Coast Highway, it's a very slow road.
[04:48.040 --> 04:49.700]  But very scenic at the same time.
[04:49.920 --> 04:52.920]  Yeah, but it's raining in San Francisco, so I'm not looking forward to the drive.
[04:52.920 --> 04:54.400]  I wish I could just hop on an airplane.
[04:55.080 --> 04:57.400]  It's clear in Monterey, but the city seems to be burning.
[04:58.660 --> 04:59.840]  What's going on with that?
[05:00.220 --> 05:01.400]  Hey, guess what I'm doing now.
[05:01.680 --> 05:02.540]  What are you doing now?
[05:02.640 --> 05:03.700]  I'm checking my e-mail.
[05:04.480 --> 05:04.760]  Wow.
[05:05.000 --> 05:06.060]  That's a great thing.
[05:06.060 --> 05:09.360]  The fact that you can just check the e-mail, you know, it's for the first time.
[05:09.820 --> 05:11.380]  What sites have you been to so far, Kevin?
[05:11.660 --> 05:21.520]  Well, yesterday, of course, on Tech TV, I went to my girlfriend's website, www.labmistress.com.
[05:21.640 --> 05:24.440]  I went to 2600.com.
[05:24.580 --> 05:25.960]  Have you heard that website, 2600?
[05:26.040 --> 05:26.840]  You should check it out, Emmanuel.
[05:27.340 --> 05:28.420]  It's very controversial.
[05:28.680 --> 05:31.500]  I don't know if my net nanny might not let me get there.
[05:32.000 --> 05:33.300]  Well, you know, it's funny.
[05:33.300 --> 05:42.940]  My publisher, John Wiley & Sons, actually, their IT department blocks people from accessing Free Cabin because they say it's an anarchist website.
[05:46.180 --> 05:47.440]  Can you believe it?
[05:48.920 --> 05:50.440]  What's up with this anarchy?
[05:52.200 --> 05:53.940]  It's all over the place.
[05:54.360 --> 05:59.860]  Yeah, so anyway, I went to a number of different sites.
[06:00.040 --> 06:19.000]  I went to Slashdot, went to Google, checked my e-mail, went to Trigger Street, went to Security Focus, PacketStorm Security, Joy of Tech, all these different sites out there, and, you know, I want to know where all the cool stuff is.
[06:19.380 --> 06:20.280]  Kevin, the question...
[06:20.280 --> 06:23.420]  You guys in New York, you guys in New York must have an idea of where all the cool stuff is, right?
[06:24.220 --> 06:24.580]  Outside.
[06:26.660 --> 06:32.780]  Actually, the notion that there's interesting things on the Internet has actually just been a lie, and now you've uncovered it, Kevin.
[06:32.820 --> 06:33.500]  It's a conspiracy.
[06:33.740 --> 06:37.700]  We did it to entertain you during those long years incarcerated and...
[06:37.700 --> 06:37.900]  Right, right.
[06:38.280 --> 06:42.400]  So Clifford Stoll with his silicon snake oil, it was all true.
[06:42.400 --> 06:42.840]  Yes.
[06:43.800 --> 06:44.760]  We have a question.
[06:45.060 --> 06:46.760]  Did you Google your own name yet?
[06:47.960 --> 06:49.340]  I did on news.
[06:49.340 --> 06:52.000]  I didn't do the Google on the regular one.
[06:52.020 --> 06:53.400]  I did that yesterday in the studio.
[06:53.800 --> 07:04.460]  And actually, last night, you know, Emmanuel and other friends, Dave and all of us, were out for dinner, and then as soon as we got back to the hotel, you know, after you guys left, you know, I kind of crashed.
[07:04.580 --> 07:05.080]  I was exhausted.
[07:05.940 --> 07:07.200]  I was working on two hours sleep.
[07:07.500 --> 07:09.920]  I didn't even get to open my new present Wiles gave me.
[07:10.240 --> 07:11.540]  Oh, it was a great present, too.
[07:11.540 --> 07:14.240]  We went to Steve Wozniak, and what did he get you?
[07:14.740 --> 07:16.580]  A brand-new titanium notebook.
[07:17.540 --> 07:17.940]  Wow.
[07:18.880 --> 07:19.360]  Not bad.
[07:19.520 --> 07:19.980]  We got you a nice present, too.
[07:20.040 --> 07:21.900]  I guess who's going to commandeer that notebook.
[07:22.720 --> 07:24.220]  We got you a very nice present, too.
[07:24.700 --> 07:26.280]  Oh, yeah, the takedown.
[07:28.340 --> 07:30.260]  Not the takedown that we may know of.
[07:30.420 --> 07:30.920]  This is a new...
[07:30.920 --> 07:31.880]  The Mafia takedown.
[07:32.140 --> 07:35.320]  Apparently, there's a new book called Takedown that's about the Mafia.
[07:35.900 --> 07:36.160]  Yeah.
[07:36.540 --> 07:38.700]  So they've used the title for a different book now.
[07:38.700 --> 07:40.160]  So that era is over.
[07:43.550 --> 07:45.290]  So, Kevin, how does it feel?
[07:45.410 --> 07:46.310]  I mean, what else have you been doing?
[07:47.190 --> 07:50.210]  Well, I've been doing a lot of media interviews today.
[07:50.210 --> 07:54.070]  I kind of, for the first day, kind of slept in.
[07:54.390 --> 07:56.310]  And it's kind of, you know...
[07:56.310 --> 07:59.750]  I'm still in this strange space where it's, like, hard to believe it's all over.
[07:59.930 --> 08:16.430]  Because I always figured at the last moment, you know, the government would have issued a warrant because I didn't file a piece of paperwork in time or something, you know, ultra-technical that I did or did not do, and they would try to, you know, keep me under their thumb.
[08:17.570 --> 08:20.270]  And it's good to know that it's all over.
[08:20.330 --> 08:26.530]  It's hard to believe it because this nightmare began on December 7th of 1988, and it's finally over.
[08:26.690 --> 08:30.490]  Not that I don't have any fault for it, but that, you know, it's been a nightmare.
[08:31.150 --> 08:32.190]  Well, welcome back.
[08:32.530 --> 08:46.750]  And I think that's a very important point, is that you do acknowledge some blame for some of the things that you've done, but in no way, I think, most rational people would believe that the kind of treatment you've gotten is in any way warranted.
[08:46.890 --> 08:53.690]  There are a number of people these days, though, that say, well, if you commit a crime, you must be punished, and anything short of death, I think, is acceptable.
[08:54.870 --> 08:58.250]  Yeah, it's like getting a death sentence for a traffic ticket.
[08:58.850 --> 09:03.890]  It, you know, of course, everybody knows I won the scapegoat sweepstakes, and I was pretty much railroaded.
[09:04.390 --> 09:20.970]  Not that, it's never been my claim that, you know, I was innocent and I didn't deserve to be punished, but how, you know, how John Markoff of the New York Times libeled me on the front pages and claimed that I had done these things I never had done, how the FBI was upset because they couldn't find me,
[09:21.130 --> 09:35.030]  and how, you know, overzealous prosecutors, you know, built this case up like I was the biggest, you know, industrial spy of the world when, when, you know, those, my case wasn't really about that.
[09:35.230 --> 09:38.450]  It wasn't about industrial espionage.
[09:38.610 --> 09:46.850]  I was snipping and looking at software, which was illegal, that I wasn't supposed to look at, so I could learn about security vulnerabilities.
[09:47.410 --> 09:59.490]  I admit that I exercised extremely poor judgment, but then again, I don't think it was the type of actions that should have landed me in a federal prison for four and a half years without a trial and without a bail hearing.
[10:00.890 --> 10:06.190]  There's one thing I'd like to touch upon, concerns the show that we did yesterday on Tech TV.
[10:06.630 --> 10:19.490]  We didn't really get much of a chance to get a good roundtable discussion going, but one of the comments that I think you were kind of encouraged to make was the message to today's kids saying not to hack.
[10:19.970 --> 10:24.810]  And to be honest, it kind of bugged me a little because, I mean, there's good hacking and there's bad hacking.
[10:25.450 --> 10:29.590]  What I think Leo meant, though, is I thought he meant like, you know, bad hacking.
[10:29.790 --> 10:31.330]  And that is true.
[10:31.550 --> 10:38.530]  I think that subject needed to be explored more into depth because what is the definition of hacking?
[10:38.990 --> 10:54.630]  And of course, where I was coming from is I didn't want people to follow my footsteps and, you know, break into companies' computers that they're not supposed to be in and then end up in the same boat that I ended up in because I kind of learned learned the hard way.
[10:55.010 --> 10:58.270]  And I went through a lot of trials and tribulations.
[10:58.270 --> 11:01.490]  I lost a lot of years out of my life.
[11:01.730 --> 11:06.670]  And I just don't want anyone to, you know, suffer the same consequences that I had to go through.
[11:07.130 --> 11:08.750]  What do you consider good hacking to be?
[11:09.670 --> 11:22.470]  Good hacking is, you know, if you want to learn about vulnerabilities and exploit them, you know, you can basically set up your own computer network or, you know, or a group of people could set it up where you're trying to hack into each other's boxes.
[11:24.170 --> 11:43.710]  You know, in other words, trying to circumvent security or trying to use it to your expertise at, you know, finding security vulnerabilities to do pen testing, you know, and make a living to take things apart, to stretch technology, to do things that the technology wasn't originally intended to do,
[11:43.870 --> 11:48.310]  and learn about the systems and how everything works.
[11:48.530 --> 11:55.330]  That, you know, kind of information about the inner workings of stuff, I think, is always interesting to know.
[11:55.430 --> 12:00.370]  And the pursuit of knowledge is something that, you know, that I'm a proponent of.
[12:01.790 --> 12:07.470]  Kevin, what else have you been forbidden from doing over the past three years since you were released from prison?
[12:07.470 --> 12:08.270]  Kevin Oh, wow.
[12:08.350 --> 12:09.750]  I mean, the list goes on.
[12:09.930 --> 12:26.550]  I couldn't possess or use any technology such as cell phones, computers, a PDA, a personal organizer, or anything that could act as or that could access a computer system or a network.
[12:26.730 --> 12:30.950]  Couldn't work in any business where I'd have access to a computer.
[12:31.190 --> 12:33.930]  Couldn't work for any technology-based company.
[12:34.190 --> 12:40.030]  Could not act as an advisor or consultant to anybody that used a computer.
[12:40.610 --> 12:56.410]  I mean, they basically, when I first was released, I was approached by a number of different companies that wanted me to, you know, do public speaking or to write articles on, you know, my opinion about, you know, technology and security.
[12:56.570 --> 13:10.290]  And the government, even at that time, had forbidden me, you know, had forbidden me from doing that, basically saying, well, you can't do that because you're acting as an advisor or consultant, so therefore you can't even speak about or write about technology,
[13:10.650 --> 13:10.990]  period.
[13:11.370 --> 13:26.130]  And then I had to retain an attorney and go back to court in June of 2000 to clarify that, you know, the probation department was interpreting these conditions of release very broadly.
[13:26.470 --> 13:30.290]  And it was pretty much preventing me from doing anything.
[13:30.650 --> 13:47.410]  And what ended up happening is the judge in the case did not rule for me or for the government, but basically told the probation department they had to evaluate anything I wanted, you know, any type of job opportunities on a case-by-case basis, and because they were simply just doing a blanket denial of everything.
[13:47.970 --> 13:57.650]  And what happened from that hearing is the probation department, you know, became a little bit more reasonable and started letting me do some things.
[13:57.650 --> 14:01.590]  And as time went on, they relaxed even more and more.
[14:01.930 --> 14:08.950]  So, just, you know, now I can actually, you know, go buy a ticket and go fly to Carbo San Luca.
[14:09.310 --> 14:10.830]  You know, I mean, I couldn't do that before.
[14:10.930 --> 14:12.930]  I couldn't, you know, I couldn't travel, you know, freely.
[14:13.230 --> 14:16.750]  I couldn't associate with any, you know, with certain people.
[14:18.150 --> 14:22.970]  It was just the conditions were the most onerous.
[14:23.230 --> 14:37.310]  I, from what my attorney tells me, that was handed down to any defendant, you know, within technology, about, you know, basically saying you couldn't possess, use, speak about, or write about technology is a pretty, is a pretty significant restriction.
[14:37.570 --> 14:40.730]  And did I read that you've been able to go on job interviews now?
[14:41.190 --> 14:47.530]  Yeah, I actually went on my first one on Monday at a large company in Santa Clara.
[14:48.210 --> 14:52.390]  And, and I'm still in talks with them.
[14:52.670 --> 14:53.930]  And we'll see what happens.
[14:54.170 --> 15:14.190]  I started Defensive Thinking, which is a, which is a computer security company that really concentrates on raising security awareness through, you know, developing seminars and conferences and doing, you know, on-site presentations and also security assessments like vulnerability assessments and pen testing and wireless security.
[15:14.410 --> 15:22.690]  So that's kind of the core competencies that myself and my business were pretty much offering the community.
[15:23.510 --> 15:30.590]  And at this point, you know, it, you know, we were launching the company in October at the time that my book was published, The Art of Deception.
[15:31.190 --> 15:36.770]  But what ended up happening is I went on this long book tour and I was gone for about a month and a half.
[15:36.890 --> 15:39.710]  And then I got back right smack dab in the middle of the holidays.
[15:40.350 --> 15:43.290]  And now, and now here it is January in the first couple of weeks.
[15:43.430 --> 15:56.930]  And then this whole thing with getting off, you know, probation, so we decided to wait till my probation was over because if we had obtained any contracts with any clients while I was still on probation, everything would have been under government scrutiny.
[15:57.510 --> 16:06.390]  And who, if you're, if your business out there, for example, wanted a security assessment, you know, would you necessarily want to tell the government that, you know, what you're doing?
[16:06.550 --> 16:13.410]  You know, people usually want to keep that information about their, you know, security posture or that they're even having their security looked at.
[16:13.590 --> 16:14.450]  They want to keep it private.
[16:14.910 --> 16:17.450]  And isn't that, uh, defensive thinking.com?
[16:17.810 --> 16:23.370]  Yeah, that's the website for the, the company is called Defensive Thinking, but our website is, uh, at, uh, defensive thinking.com.
[16:24.110 --> 16:29.470]  Okay, but I don't know if, uh, if anyone hasn't checked it out, you guys, you guys really should check out my, uh, the book, The Art of Deception.
[16:29.630 --> 16:41.450]  I think it's, uh, I think it's like the social engineering Bible and how to, uh, recognize, uh, these type of attacks so people become more, uh, they're more in a position to recognize if, uh, anybody's trying to dupe them.
[16:41.450 --> 16:55.350]  Um, but the truth be known, I myself was social engineered by an AP reporter back in June who told me that my publisher had wanted him to interview me immediately and I didn't check it out.
[16:55.490 --> 17:00.170]  I didn't verify that he was telling me the truth and it turned out he wasn't and I granted him the interview.
[17:00.190 --> 17:02.670]  So I was kind of duped, uh, myself.
[17:02.950 --> 17:13.490]  So even if you, you know about these techniques, if you don't spend the time to, uh, to, to, to question and to verify things, you know, you could end up on the losing end of the stick.
[17:13.750 --> 17:16.010]  Did that become part of the story that he had dipped you?
[17:16.570 --> 17:16.930]  No.
[17:17.110 --> 17:20.350]  I mean, he didn't tell me that, you know, of course he didn't reveal that in his story.
[17:20.490 --> 17:20.950]  He was the writer.
[17:21.650 --> 17:21.910]  Uh-huh.
[17:22.030 --> 17:23.010]  You don't know his name, do you?
[17:23.210 --> 17:24.150]  Yeah, John Crane.
[17:24.650 --> 17:25.830]  Okay, well now at least we know that.
[17:26.090 --> 17:31.710]  But Kevin, I was wondering, have you seen the piece in yesterday's New York Times concerning the sentencing guidelines and how Yeah.
[17:31.830 --> 17:32.410]  Yes, I did.
[17:32.570 --> 17:47.010]  You're talking about the piece, um, that went to, uh, whether, you know, about the, the, the, the, the, the, the federal appellate courts had ruled that imposing a restriction against, uh, imposing a restriction that a defendant can't use the internet is overbroad.
[17:47.450 --> 17:49.710]  And it's with respect to child pornography cases.
[17:50.350 --> 17:50.750]  Yeah.
[17:50.890 --> 17:51.650]  Among other cases.
[17:51.890 --> 17:53.070]  And it had your picture in there too.
[17:53.210 --> 17:54.170]  It was talking about your case.
[17:54.330 --> 17:58.850]  And it's just interesting how this is becoming an issue now, three years after you were...
[17:58.850 --> 18:05.830]  No, it's the day I get off this, this, this restriction is when it becomes, when a federal appellate court ruled that it was overbroad.
[18:05.970 --> 18:08.230]  But that wasn't in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
[18:08.330 --> 18:13.190]  I actually appealed by conditions of, you know, supervised release to the Ninth Circuit.
[18:13.330 --> 18:15.210]  And the Ninth Circuit held that they were reasonable.
[18:15.550 --> 18:19.070]  Uh, to this day, I don't believe the conditions were reasonable.
[18:19.350 --> 18:34.530]  Uh, and I think what speaks to that is two separate, um, circuits in the federal system have decided that imposing an internet restriction is just too over, you know, it's just too broad because the internet is intertwined in our daily lives and our work.
[18:34.730 --> 18:43.790]  I mean, um, how many jobs out there, you know, at least in the professional environment, require use of the internet in some way?
[18:43.950 --> 18:44.950]  A great majority of them.
[18:45.090 --> 19:00.950]  Kind of, the internet to me is, is, is, is important as, you know, as analogous to a telephone, a pen, you know, money.
[19:01.210 --> 19:12.710]  And to basically, uh, you know, have a blanket restriction on somebody's use of the internet, I believe was overbroad, I believe a, a more, uh, reasonable, uh, restriction would have been monitored use.
[19:12.890 --> 19:18.370]  So you'd have to subject your internet use to monitoring by the federal probation department.
[19:19.510 --> 19:26.570]  Kevin, did you have any close calls during the three years where you almost use the internet by accident or a machine that was connected?
[19:26.930 --> 19:27.010]  Yeah, right.
[19:28.390 --> 19:31.670]  Yeah, like one day I was sitting there typing and then, you know, up came Google.
[19:31.810 --> 19:32.290]  I'm just kidding.
[19:33.030 --> 19:33.030]  Um,
[19:36.330 --> 19:37.030]  that's a good one.
[19:37.050 --> 19:37.530]  I like that.
[19:38.070 --> 19:40.050]  Uh, no, I didn't come up with any close calls.
[19:40.650 --> 19:41.890]  Um, good answer.
[19:42.410 --> 19:42.770]  What?
[19:42.970 --> 19:43.590]  Good answer.
[19:43.990 --> 19:45.530]  Yeah, no, there was no close calls.
[19:45.690 --> 19:52.250]  I, uh, I, I didn't want to, uh, risk, uh, in any way violating my conditions of supervised release.
[19:52.410 --> 20:11.690]  And I, uh, I was very cautious and even to the point of a little bit of paranoia, um, because the conditions were so broad and I knew there were so many people in, in the department of justice that made their name off of making the, you know, uh, making the example out of me that they would love nothing better,
[20:11.690 --> 20:18.150]  but to see me, you know, back into the system again so they can say, see, see, he really is a bad guy.
[20:18.350 --> 20:24.890]  So I had to be, you know, extra cautious and, uh, and everything that I did.
[20:24.990 --> 20:41.470]  Like, for example, when I had, uh, my talk show on KFI in LA, um, I had to depend on other people to access the internet on my behalf, but the prosecutors were so, they, they wrote my condition so broadly that I actually had a condition that I couldn't access computers through third parties.
[20:41.870 --> 20:42.070]  Okay.
[20:42.330 --> 20:43.070]  So get this.
[20:43.410 --> 20:45.430]  Imagine I just go up to the ticket counter at United.
[20:45.810 --> 20:52.090]  I talked to the nice, uh, lovely clerk, clerk behind the counter and I need a ticket to go somewhere.
[20:52.110 --> 20:55.290]  And she accesses United Airlines computers to print me out my ticket.
[20:55.570 --> 20:57.970]  Now, did I violate my, my supervised release?
[20:58.310 --> 21:01.790]  You know, so, I mean, that's how broadly it could have been interpreted.
[21:02.070 --> 21:14.390]  So when I was doing my radio show, I actually told, you know, I actually asked my probation officer, I said, Hey, you know, is this cool for my producer and people that are trying to get the materials for, to access the internet on my behalf?
[21:14.590 --> 21:16.730]  And, you know, they didn't find a problem with it.
[21:16.850 --> 21:17.830]  So that's how I did it.
[21:18.530 --> 21:21.130]  It sounded like your probation officer was not as bad as he could have been.
[21:21.350 --> 21:26.610]  No, I actually had a, a guy that was, uh, uh, genuinely, um, fair.
[21:27.030 --> 21:33.570]  The, but the people above him, uh, were very, uh, were prosecutorial oriented.
[21:33.970 --> 21:35.590]  In other words, this guy wasn't a prosecutor.
[21:35.730 --> 21:43.870]  This guy was very reasonable and really wanted to help, you know, um, you know, help you move forward and get, get the probation period over with.
[21:44.070 --> 21:54.850]  But the people above him were very, uh, prosecutor oriented, you know, like, uh, uh, had had the mindset, just make, uh, make, you know, the probationer's time as rough as possible.
[21:55.210 --> 21:59.290]  But fortunately, I, uh, didn't have that type of, you know, probation officer.
[22:00.670 --> 22:02.110]  Bernie, uh, I'm sorry, Bernie.
[22:02.730 --> 22:08.810]  Uh, uh, Kevin, uh, you're going to be, uh, uh, able to travel wherever you want to go now.
[22:09.130 --> 22:09.550]  Is that right?
[22:10.210 --> 22:13.950]  Uh, uh, anywhere, um, anywhere in the world.
[22:14.430 --> 22:15.350]  Do you have any plans?
[22:16.130 --> 22:21.010]  Um, actually, I'm going to, uh, Texas on February 18th.
[22:21.070 --> 22:24.130]  I'm going to Houston because I'm on a webcast for NetIQ.
[22:24.390 --> 22:27.010]  I think it's going to actually be a webcast on their, on their website.
[22:27.570 --> 22:35.190]  Um, and then in March, the beginning of March, I'm going to Poland, uh, to do, uh, a couple of speaking engagements.
[22:35.610 --> 22:38.270]  Um, and then in September, I'm supposed to be going to Brazil.
[22:39.310 --> 22:54.310]  And mind you, I don't like flying, so it's going to be pretty rough to do this, uh, this travel because I really, uh, do not like to be up in, uh, um, these, uh, flying, flying machines that sometimes, uh, end up crashing.
[22:54.650 --> 22:55.310]  Well, it's funny.
[22:55.450 --> 22:57.670]  I, I, I, a lot of hackers I know feel the same way.
[22:57.870 --> 23:00.650]  I think it's because we realize how we don't have control, you know?
[23:00.790 --> 23:05.310]  So we, uh, we feel very uncomfortable and there's always something mechanical that can go wrong.
[23:05.470 --> 23:06.370]  So there's always that fear.
[23:06.570 --> 23:09.910]  And a lot of people feel it's irrational, but the fear is still there.
[23:10.750 --> 23:12.790]  So, um, but I'm looking forward.
[23:12.950 --> 23:18.790]  I know I've never been outside the United States of America, America, except to Tijuana and to Canada.
[23:19.430 --> 23:27.530]  When I was Canada, when I was, uh, when, uh, I was like six, seven years old and it was Tijuana when I was a teenager, but I've never been outside the USA.
[23:27.970 --> 23:32.510]  You might have some problems in Canada from, from experience I had over the summer.
[23:32.870 --> 23:39.630]  Um, um, you, you just might want to check on, uh, if they'll let you in with, with a record or if there's a certain amount of time that has to pass first.
[23:40.150 --> 23:40.730]  Oh, really?
[23:41.270 --> 23:41.430]  Yeah.
[23:41.650 --> 23:43.750]  That's just something to, to think about before you get to the border.
[23:44.410 --> 23:47.570]  Uh, but there are, there are people that, uh, you mentioned you couldn't talk to.
[23:47.630 --> 23:49.070]  Do I imagine anybody with a record?
[23:49.230 --> 23:49.950]  Is that, is that the case?
[23:50.010 --> 23:55.470]  Yeah, I couldn't talk to anybody that was convicted of a felony, for example, uh, without the permission of the probation officer.
[23:55.650 --> 24:03.110]  So, for example, now I could, uh, like for example, my probation officer gave me permission to, you know, talk to Kevin Polson on a couple of occasions.
[24:03.630 --> 24:06.410]  You know, actually meet him when, when I was in San Francisco.
[24:07.350 --> 24:09.710]  Um, lay in, like, for example, Bernie S.
[24:09.950 --> 24:17.370]  Now I could, you know, if I want to, you know, phone him up and, and talk to him, I can talk to him freely and not have to be concerned of, you know, violating any conditions.
[24:17.970 --> 24:19.110]  Hey, Jeff, is that possible?
[24:20.150 --> 24:20.790]  Uh, not yet.
[24:21.050 --> 24:22.970]  No, uh, Bernie S is not called in.
[24:23.370 --> 24:24.150]  Oh, no, no, no.
[24:24.250 --> 24:24.850]  We can call him.
[24:25.450 --> 24:25.850]  All right.
[24:25.970 --> 24:26.570]  Yeah, we can do that.
[24:26.690 --> 24:26.770]  Sure.
[24:26.830 --> 24:27.190]  I'll get him online.
[24:27.650 --> 24:32.070]  We're going to, we're going to bring, uh, Bernie S in and, uh, two of you can actually talk to each other legally.
[24:32.530 --> 24:33.370]  Hey, how about that?
[24:33.590 --> 24:33.830]  Okay.
[24:33.890 --> 24:34.950]  You know, probation too.
[24:35.070 --> 24:35.630]  So that works.
[24:36.070 --> 24:36.250]  Yeah.
[24:36.430 --> 24:36.570]  Yeah.
[24:37.070 --> 24:39.470]  Um, even if he wasn't on probation though, you'd be able to talk to him, right?
[24:39.730 --> 24:39.990]  Yeah.
[24:40.130 --> 24:42.970]  In fact, Louis Dupain, my co-defendant is still on probation.
[24:43.390 --> 24:43.750]  Uh-huh.
[24:43.750 --> 24:44.970]  I could actually call him.
[24:45.610 --> 24:45.970]  Yeah.
[24:46.210 --> 24:46.470]  Yeah.
[24:46.550 --> 24:47.490]  You can call anybody you want.
[24:47.610 --> 24:48.630]  But can they talk back?
[24:48.750 --> 24:49.390]  That's the question.
[24:49.690 --> 24:51.950]  Well, what you're going to do is probably would hang up.
[24:53.170 --> 24:53.530]  Yeah.
[24:54.130 --> 24:59.710]  Well, now I did, I mean, were there any people that tried to talk to you that you weren't allowed to talk to during this period?
[25:00.250 --> 25:11.630]  Um, I actually had people that I spend time with in custody that would call me, like two or three people that were, uh, pretty decent folks that were in, uh, were in Lompoc.
[25:12.030 --> 25:20.770]  Uh, and they, um, they called me a couple of times and, you know, I would just be cordial and say, Hey, let's talk, you know, you know, after my probation's over.
[25:21.130 --> 25:27.650]  I saw a piece in the New York Times magazine that said some guy from Lompoc offered you several million dollars to do something like that?
[25:27.870 --> 25:28.710]  No, no, no, no.
[25:28.710 --> 25:47.070]  When I was in MDC back in 1988, there was this, um, a Colombian drug dealer that had said he had offered me $5 million cash in a briefcase, if it would fit in one, um, that if I could help him escape from federal custody by, you know, rigging the computers or,
[25:47.190 --> 25:53.650]  you know, doing some sort of paper trip, which would get him released early, he would give me $5 million of cash, and that's it.
[25:54.370 --> 25:56.250]  And, uh, of course, I didn't take him up on his offer.
[25:57.170 --> 26:00.390]  Kevin, go ahead and say hello to, uh, Bernie S.
[26:00.870 --> 26:01.530]  Hey, Bernie.
[26:02.110 --> 26:02.870]  Hey, Kevin.
[26:03.210 --> 26:05.970]  It reminds me, you hear so many stories when you're in federal prison.
[26:06.210 --> 26:10.570]  It's like 95% BS, but very entertaining stories.
[26:11.090 --> 26:13.850]  Yeah, but hey, it's good to talk to you finally.
[26:14.130 --> 26:17.230]  Hey, I'm finally, uh, I'm off probation, man.
[26:17.370 --> 26:18.550]  Well, off supervised release.
[26:18.550 --> 26:22.890]  We're actually having, we're actually having, congratulations, we're actually having a legal conversation.
[26:23.230 --> 26:32.530]  You know, before we couldn't talk because of, uh, federal restrictions on, on, uh, you contacting or talking with, communicating with, uh, with convicted felons.
[26:32.710 --> 26:37.730]  So, anyhow, does it feel, uh, does it feel any different?
[26:37.930 --> 26:39.230]  To me, it didn't.
[26:39.330 --> 26:47.030]  It was just sort of anticlimactic, and it took me a while to get used to not being under the thumb of the federal government.
[26:47.110 --> 26:47.770]  How is it for you?
[26:49.010 --> 26:53.870]  Um, it's, it, it kind of like, it doesn't feel that much different.
[26:54.550 --> 26:57.590]  Um, it, it's cool that, uh, well, it does.
[26:57.710 --> 27:07.550]  It's like a great weight lift, being lifted off my shoulders, but at the same time, um, you know, it's, it, it, it, it kind of feels surreal in a sense.
[27:08.190 --> 27:08.870]  I don't know.
[27:09.030 --> 27:11.810]  I mean, how did you feel when it would have finally ended?
[27:11.970 --> 27:16.610]  But then again, you weren't, you weren't like the, the number one target of the DOJ either, so.
[27:16.670 --> 27:17.270]  No, no, no.
[27:17.370 --> 27:19.610]  You weren't the Osama Ben Mitnick of the internet.
[27:20.890 --> 27:22.910]  There's a soundbite for you right there, soundbite.
[27:24.730 --> 27:32.430]  No, I wasn't quite, uh, quite the cause celeb, but, uh, or, uh, or a evil incarnate.
[27:32.830 --> 27:45.250]  But, uh, uh, it did feel surreal after the whole ordeal was officially over, after my three years of supervised release, um, it sort of, sort of dissipated as a whimper.
[27:45.410 --> 27:48.990]  It wasn't like suddenly I felt like there was a million pounds off my shoulders.
[27:49.230 --> 27:56.650]  It just, but, but over the next few weeks after that, then I began to feel, because you're, you're under this great weight for, for years.
[27:56.890 --> 27:58.950]  And in your case, many, many years.
[27:59.510 --> 28:01.930]  And that doesn't just disappear right away.
[28:01.930 --> 28:06.470]  It has a profound effect on your psyche, I think.
[28:06.790 --> 28:12.050]  And it just doesn't evaporate overnight after the papers are signed, you know?
[28:12.330 --> 28:13.090]  So, um...
[28:13.090 --> 28:14.770]  I didn't have to sign any papers, did you?
[28:15.550 --> 28:16.130]  I'm sorry?
[28:16.450 --> 28:18.030]  I didn't have to sign any papers.
[28:18.150 --> 28:18.910]  They gave me a letter.
[28:19.130 --> 28:23.110]  I just got a letter in the mail saying, uh, it was just, it was kind of funny, the letter.
[28:23.250 --> 28:25.590]  It wasn't like, congratulations or anything.
[28:25.710 --> 28:32.490]  It was just like, this letter is to inform you that, uh, uh, your period of supervision release is over, et cetera.
[28:32.630 --> 28:33.050]  It was, it was...
[28:33.050 --> 28:35.490]  I'm expecting a diploma, you know, with a little certificate.
[28:35.690 --> 28:38.470]  I mean, why can't these guys get certificate maker or something?
[28:38.730 --> 28:38.890]  You should.
[28:39.030 --> 28:40.150]  You know, suitable for framing.
[28:40.290 --> 28:41.210]  You should get something.
[28:41.490 --> 28:42.110]  Don't you think?
[28:42.310 --> 28:44.590]  Like, I mean, this costs you how much?
[28:44.790 --> 28:53.490]  And you don't even get, you just get this lame letter, it wasn't even mailed certified or anything, this lame letter in the mail saying, all right, this is, uh, you, you finished this.
[28:54.670 --> 29:00.830]  Hey, Eric, I just was looking at an email, and somebody wants to know where I got the t-shirt I was wearing on Tech TV.
[29:01.570 --> 29:03.190]  Oh, the H2K t-shirt.
[29:03.350 --> 29:05.070]  Yes, well, we do have a few of those left.
[29:05.290 --> 29:07.950]  Uh, you can go to the H2K t-shirt site, and you might be able to find something.
[29:09.170 --> 29:11.070]  Yeah, I'll send them an email back.
[29:11.290 --> 29:15.630]  I was realizing how, you know, uh, we've had four conferences, and not one of them.
[29:15.630 --> 29:18.370]  You've been able to attend because of, uh, legal problems.
[29:18.590 --> 29:27.170]  We started back in 1994, and here it is 2003, and every single one of those, uh, you've either been on the run or in prison or on supervised release.
[29:27.650 --> 29:32.730]  So now, finally, assuming we have a conference next year, you'll be able to attend, and I look forward to that.
[29:32.730 --> 29:34.170]  And we definitely want him...
[29:34.650 --> 29:37.350]  We definitely want Kevin on the social engineering panel.
[29:38.770 --> 29:40.910]  Okay, Bernie, you say you want him on the social engineering panel?
[29:41.290 --> 29:41.690]  Absolutely.
[29:42.370 --> 29:43.410]  And Kevin, what were you saying?
[29:43.910 --> 29:51.650]  No, I was just reading my email, and this, uh, this obvious... this person is obviously not happy with me, so he wrote me this very nasty email.
[29:51.910 --> 29:53.950]  The title of it was Jail Waits.
[29:54.030 --> 29:54.570]  Do you want to hear it?
[29:54.930 --> 29:55.270]  Sure.
[29:55.430 --> 29:56.650]  Uh, as long as it's clean.
[29:56.970 --> 29:59.810]  Yeah, no, it doesn't have the seven words you can't say on TV.
[30:00.690 --> 30:03.530]  He goes, you're an obvious sociopath.
[30:03.730 --> 30:08.570]  Whatever damage you do to your life isn't important as long as you are in the limelight with other geeks.
[30:08.930 --> 30:16.870]  I personally have nothing against you, but when you make certain enemies, just remember that the one that suffers, you're the one that suffers, not them.
[30:17.090 --> 30:21.170]  You're cool now that you're off supervision, but you are never free once you're in the system.
[30:21.370 --> 30:22.950]  You will always be watched.
[30:23.130 --> 30:24.590]  They have broken your spirit.
[30:24.910 --> 30:26.370]  Don't rest on your laurels.
[30:26.510 --> 30:30.310]  Do something else more useful to the world than pursuing your own amusement.
[30:30.590 --> 30:32.090]  Uh, yada, yada.
[30:32.490 --> 30:41.730]  Um, I admire anyone that gets over on any people, but always remember that you are the one that pays while others look and cheer you on in a lonely jail cell.
[30:43.370 --> 30:44.710]  You know, that's depressing.
[30:44.750 --> 30:45.670]  The only part about...
[30:45.670 --> 30:47.310]  What does this guy think say?
[30:47.490 --> 30:48.530]  Broken my spirit.
[30:48.690 --> 30:50.030]  He's calling you a sociopath.
[30:50.030 --> 30:55.990]  This guy doesn't know probably anything about my case or about my persona or my psychological makeup.
[30:56.150 --> 31:03.470]  And here, this guy's an expert to comment and send me this, you know, this obviously discouraging email.
[31:03.850 --> 31:04.590]  Right about right there.
[31:04.590 --> 31:07.170]  What I had a problem with was saying your spirit is broken.
[31:07.270 --> 31:09.170]  He'd have no way of knowing if your spirit is broken or not.
[31:09.310 --> 31:11.510]  But there are some pretty good warnings in there.
[31:11.730 --> 31:13.050]  Yeah, they are always watching.
[31:13.130 --> 31:13.770]  They are always there.
[31:13.810 --> 31:14.590]  You are in the system.
[31:15.150 --> 31:19.450]  But, you know, an increasing number of us are these days, and it's just a sad fact of life.
[31:20.310 --> 31:25.170]  And I think, you know, you're educated enough to, you know, to be able to watch right back.
[31:26.050 --> 31:27.510]  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[31:27.730 --> 31:33.970]  Like, if it's just because my supervised release is over, I don't think the... I think the government will even watch me more closely now.
[31:35.210 --> 31:37.430]  And, you know, there's really nothing I can do about it.
[31:38.030 --> 31:42.270]  I'm not worried about it because I'm not, you know, doing anything that would put me in jeopardy.
[31:42.350 --> 31:52.170]  But the problem is, is sometimes they can manufacture things that others have done, and they want to, you know, place blame, they need a scapegoat.
[31:52.410 --> 32:00.650]  And it's a scary situation that if you're a target of any federal law enforcement agency, they can really make your life miserable.
[32:00.650 --> 32:03.390]  And I think you could really comment on that, Bernie.
[32:03.390 --> 32:27.090]  Well, yeah, or they could write a new law that makes previous legal actions illegal, and then go back and cite all these actions you did, which occurred prior to the enactment of the statute you're charged with violating, and still use that as evidence against you.
[32:27.170 --> 32:29.430]  I mean, that's happened to me, and it's happened to other people.
[32:29.550 --> 32:30.110]  It's amazing.
[32:30.470 --> 32:35.350]  But basically, if they really want to lock you up, they'll find a way to lock you up.
[32:35.670 --> 32:46.150]  No, all they have to do is, if they really don't like you, they just have an agent go plant some coke in your car, and then when you're pulled over, you know, it's over, because it's just simple proving possession.
[32:46.610 --> 32:50.750]  Or more commonly, many cases don't even involve any physical evidence at all.
[32:50.850 --> 32:54.750]  It just involves the testimony of another person against you.
[32:55.450 --> 32:59.510]  Or they can just run you off the road while you're driving down the Pacific Coast Highway.
[33:00.690 --> 33:08.330]  Gentlemen, let me break in for a second and let everyone know that they're listening to WBAI-FM in New York at 99.5.
[33:08.930 --> 33:19.410]  Now, Kevin, I had a question, and a lot of people have asked this, concerning if you were to get in trouble again, does the three-strikes law apply to you in California?
[33:19.410 --> 33:27.710]  Well, number one, I'm not going to get in trouble again, due to my own actions, because I'm, you know, I'm not going to be breaking the law now or in the future.
[33:27.970 --> 33:38.690]  But if I were, I live in the state of California, and the three-strikes law, as it is now, is the first two felonies have to be violent crimes.
[33:39.070 --> 33:44.250]  And then the third one could be any felony, and then they could lock you up for, you know, 25 years to life.
[33:44.470 --> 33:45.750]  That doesn't apply to me.
[33:45.750 --> 33:52.930]  I've never been convicted of a violent felony or, you know, what they call, there's another term for it.
[33:52.930 --> 33:59.890]  It either has to be violent or a special, you know, circumstance felony, like, for instance, first-degree burglary, for example.
[34:01.750 --> 34:03.630]  And so that doesn't apply to me.
[34:03.770 --> 34:06.990]  In the federal system, it doesn't apply either.
[34:06.990 --> 34:16.070]  So, note that the three-strikes law does not apply to anybody that has been convicted of computer-hacking-related crimes.
[34:16.110 --> 34:30.990]  But if, you know, for example, a defendant has been convicted of two prior violent or special circumstances felonies and then gets busted for, you know, a fraud-related offense, then, you know, then they could be.
[34:31.450 --> 34:45.050]  There's another thing, or it could, not that this will ever happen, but in the federal system, the United States Sentencing Commission has come up with this, I'm sure you're very familiar with this table, Kevin, the scoring table in the back of the sentencing guide.
[34:45.310 --> 34:46.970]  Yeah, I'm very familiar with that.
[34:47.110 --> 34:54.310]  The base offense level and all the enhancements and prior history scores and all.
[34:54.390 --> 34:58.630]  It's an amazing chart and table that I think is imprinted in my brain.
[34:58.630 --> 35:17.570]  And the bottom line is, depending on how many previous points you've earned in their game, they can award you with greater sentences in the future based on not necessarily what you're charged with now, but what you've been charged with and convicted of in the past.
[35:17.850 --> 35:28.810]  Now, this is what's scary about the federal system, and this is where I think it's really reprehensible, is the thing, there's a term called relevant conduct.
[35:29.270 --> 35:34.450]  So imagine this, you're a defendant and you're charged with four counts of wire fraud.
[35:34.710 --> 35:39.950]  And let's say on each count of wire fraud, the victim claims there's $100,000 worth of loss.
[35:40.090 --> 35:41.270]  Okay, this is an example.
[35:42.210 --> 35:48.890]  Let's say you go to a jury trial, okay, and you win the trial except for one count.
[35:48.890 --> 36:06.170]  If you're found not guilty on three and you're convicted of one, did you know when the federal judge sentences you, they could look at the other three that you were acquitted of, and if they believe that more probably than not that you had did those crimes,
[36:06.390 --> 36:11.950]  the judge could sentence you as if you've been convicted of all four crimes.
[36:12.450 --> 36:13.850]  That's how the federal system works.
[36:13.850 --> 36:18.290]  And the rules of evidence don't apply at the sentencing stage.
[36:18.570 --> 36:21.690]  The evidentiary rules just do not apply at the sentencing.
[36:21.810 --> 36:35.270]  They can bring up, like in my case, and I'm sure your case, they brought up all this stuff that just really had nothing to do with anything, but just to demonize at the sentencing stage to make it appear to the judge that you're really dangerous and all that,
[36:35.530 --> 36:36.950]  just to up the sentence.
[36:37.110 --> 36:43.530]  And that's a common tactic in the federal system, and it's just, you know, it's a by-the-book procedure, but...
[36:43.530 --> 36:44.610]  Yeah, that's how they get tie agreements.
[36:44.990 --> 36:45.330]  Sure.
[36:45.670 --> 36:54.750]  Yeah, because what they do, they'll charge you with, like, 90 different crimes, and only if you get convicted of one of them, you get sentenced as if you committed all of them.
[36:54.890 --> 36:56.770]  What if you get convicted of a misdemeanor?
[36:58.290 --> 37:00.650]  If you're charged with, like, four felonies and a misdemeanor?
[37:00.710 --> 37:00.850]  Mm-hmm.
[37:01.510 --> 37:04.050]  I don't know if the sentencing guidelines apply on misdemeanors.
[37:04.270 --> 37:04.830]  They do.
[37:04.950 --> 37:07.790]  There aren't a lot of federal misdemeanors, but there are.
[37:07.930 --> 37:12.150]  There are misdemeanors in the federal system.
[37:12.610 --> 37:19.530]  And the same situation applies as far as rules of evidence not applying at the sentencing stage.
[37:19.530 --> 37:39.090]  So if you're tried and convicted or you plead guilty of a misdemeanor in federal court, any other conduct, even conduct related to offenses that you were found not guilty of, alleged offenses that you were found not guilty of, can be used against you in the sentencing phase of the misdemeanor.
[37:39.090 --> 37:40.550]  So it makes no sense.
[37:40.650 --> 37:42.230]  It's not logical, but it's how it works.
[37:42.650 --> 37:49.310]  Bernie, just to put a more concrete face on this, if I recall correctly, you got into extra trouble because of dental amalgam?
[37:50.330 --> 37:51.990]  Or was that totally thrown out?
[37:53.170 --> 38:10.550]  Well, I wasn't charged with this, but one of the things that was thrown up repeatedly by the Secret Service in my case was that they told the judge that they found a substance in my home that was raided that they believed to have been C4 plastic explosives.
[38:10.790 --> 38:14.410]  And they said, well, it turned out not to be the fact that it might have been concerning them greatly.
[38:14.410 --> 38:16.970]  And they brought that up to two different judges in my case.
[38:17.410 --> 38:20.130]  And first of all, there was nothing dangerous in my house at all.
[38:20.210 --> 38:22.470]  There was no explosives or anything dangerous.
[38:22.670 --> 38:32.850]  But just bringing up that sort of thing, even though I wasn't charged with what it turned out to be dental putty, because the house I was renting had been owned by two dentists.
[38:32.990 --> 38:34.830]  They were husband and wife dentists who had died.
[38:34.830 --> 38:44.750]  And there was a dental chair and all these dentures and things in the basement and chemicals related to dentistry, including this cans of this mashed potato stuff they put in their mouth and they make molds of your teeth.
[38:44.950 --> 38:46.210]  And they thought it was C4.
[38:46.590 --> 38:48.110]  Well, it turned out not to be.
[38:48.150 --> 38:50.970]  And they knew that very shortly afterwards after they analyzed it.
[38:51.030 --> 38:53.550]  But months later, they brought that up as a specter.
[38:53.650 --> 38:55.770]  And I'm sure they did the same thing in Kevin's case.
[38:55.870 --> 38:59.110]  They just bring up these specters of things that really don't have any basis in facts.
[38:59.150 --> 39:00.410]  Well, wait a second, Bernie.
[39:00.410 --> 39:09.250]  I mean, the prosecutors did state, if I was in federal's attention and could get access to one of those collect-only pay phones, then I could start an equaler strike.
[39:09.410 --> 39:09.690]  I mean...
[39:09.690 --> 39:10.050]  There you go.
[39:11.090 --> 39:20.510]  Or didn't they say, didn't they say that possessing the information that was on your hard drive, which was encrypted, if they gave it to you, it would be just like possessing a gun.
[39:20.690 --> 39:21.850]  And didn't the judge say, that's right?
[39:22.250 --> 39:22.830]  Right, right.
[39:22.950 --> 39:31.110]  And in fact, what my attorney wanted to prove is some of the crimes they charged me with that others had committed them and just sent me the information.
[39:31.510 --> 39:32.630]  But I kept...
[39:32.630 --> 39:34.810]  You know, I had a practice of keeping a lot of stuff encrypted.
[39:36.450 --> 39:43.550]  And what my attorney wanted to do was get the government to turn over all the materials that they seized from me, which they're supposed to do.
[39:43.810 --> 39:47.130]  And then I would be encrypted for the lawyer so we can go through it.
[39:47.190 --> 39:50.610]  And the prosecution basically said, we can't give them the encrypted materials.
[39:50.710 --> 39:51.630]  We don't know what's there.
[39:51.770 --> 39:54.170]  It might be of national security significance.
[39:54.490 --> 39:58.410]  And unless he's going to give us the key, we're not going to give him the encrypted materials.
[39:59.130 --> 40:17.810]  And surprisingly, without any thought into the matter of the constitutional implications of forcing me to, you know, essentially give up the key that might incriminate me in other matters, the judge basically said, unless you give up the key, we're not ordering the government to turn over the files.
[40:18.010 --> 40:25.050]  When I read your brief, when I read your lawyer's motion on that, I thought you had an extremely strong constitutional argument on that.
[40:25.050 --> 40:30.670]  But it just, as you know, the Constitution just doesn't carry a lot of water in federal court.
[40:30.910 --> 40:33.470]  But didn't the prosecutor, didn't the U.S.
[40:33.530 --> 40:38.710]  attorney in your case equate the encrypted information on your hard drive, giving that to you?
[40:38.790 --> 40:40.530]  Didn't they equate that with giving you a gun?
[40:40.690 --> 40:41.810]  And didn't the judge agree with that?
[40:41.850 --> 40:41.950]  No.
[40:42.070 --> 40:46.390]  No, they actually said that giving me a computer was like giving a hitman a machine gun.
[40:46.390 --> 40:47.030]  Okay.
[40:48.230 --> 40:56.070]  They equated your discovery materials, which are required to be given to you under federal law.
[40:56.290 --> 41:01.210]  They equated following the law, giving you your discovery material while you were locked in.
[41:01.230 --> 41:04.930]  They equated that with giving you a tool of violence, didn't they?
[41:05.310 --> 41:05.670]  Yes.
[41:06.690 --> 41:07.210]  Amazing.
[41:07.210 --> 41:08.230]  Yeah, I mean...
[41:08.230 --> 41:09.150]  I love the analogy.
[41:09.270 --> 41:10.310]  The analogy is a good question.
[41:11.530 --> 41:14.970]  I mean, I'm so glad I'm out of the system.
[41:16.010 --> 41:18.830]  And I can put this behind me and just move forward.
[41:19.830 --> 41:21.270]  And it's been a long time.
[41:21.430 --> 41:26.390]  Again, it's been over, you know, 15 years that I've been dealing, you know, with...
[41:26.390 --> 41:45.190]  You know, the first case was, you know, when I had been able to hack into digital equipment corporations, EZNet, and then another hacking partner of mine and I, we moved a copy of a program that was an automated hacker that DEC used internally to test its own security.
[41:45.370 --> 41:54.310]  And we moved the VMS source code over to USC so we could look through the code and read the source to try to spot security vulnerabilities.
[41:57.290 --> 42:07.250]  And that was the basis for the, you know, first case against me was essentially, you know, accessing their proprietary source code.
[42:07.550 --> 42:10.230]  And that all was in December of 88.
[42:10.230 --> 42:22.130]  And finally, you know, on January 21st of, you know, 2003, or January 21st, mind you, that this, you know, this whole ordeal is over with.
[42:24.190 --> 42:32.970]  Guys, I'd love to hear you two talk all night long because you have so many stories, but I'd like to take some phone calls, and that means we won't be able to keep burning on because of the way our phone system is configured.
[42:33.590 --> 42:34.110]  Kick me off.
[42:34.770 --> 42:42.970]  Yeah, I think, I look forward to many weeks in the future where we all talk together and bring some more people in that haven't been allowed to talk to each other.
[42:43.090 --> 42:43.770]  It's really great to...
[42:43.770 --> 43:00.530]  Well, at the next conference we have, Emanuel, we won't have to put up barricades between myself, Kevin, or Fiber, which you recall we had to do at H2K, put up actually physical barriers because we weren't allowed to talk to each other, but we sat on the same panel nonetheless.
[43:01.230 --> 43:02.810]  Actually, that was beyond hope, I believe.
[43:03.010 --> 43:03.330]  That's right.
[43:03.390 --> 43:04.050]  It was beyond hope.
[43:04.090 --> 43:04.490]  My mistake.
[43:04.990 --> 43:05.210]  Yeah.
[43:06.130 --> 43:10.570]  But, yeah, we had to put a barrier between you and Fiberoptic because he was still on Supervised Release, I believe.
[43:10.770 --> 43:11.030]  Right.
[43:12.170 --> 43:13.350]  Or you were still on...
[43:13.350 --> 43:14.430]  Some of them was on Supervised Release.
[43:14.610 --> 43:14.850]  I don't know.
[43:18.670 --> 43:20.090]  Or I would have gone directly to jail.
[43:20.230 --> 43:27.730]  So we put up these cardboard barriers so we could still sit on the same panel and talk to address audience questions without talking to each other.
[43:27.830 --> 43:31.010]  But we could talk to you and then you could talk to the other person and back and forth.
[43:31.130 --> 43:31.310]  Whatever.
[43:31.770 --> 43:34.370]  It's just so silly, all this stuff.
[43:34.890 --> 43:35.210]  Yeah.
[43:35.230 --> 43:38.050]  It's just great to hear you two talk together for the first time on the show.
[43:38.670 --> 43:40.510]  And I will talk to you many times.
[43:42.030 --> 43:44.970]  But, Bernie, we're going to bid you adieu and take some phone calls from the listeners.
[43:45.810 --> 43:47.130]  212-209-2900.
[43:47.890 --> 43:48.910]  Congratulations again, Kevin.
[43:49.170 --> 43:50.130]  Hey, thanks a lot, Bernie.
[43:50.390 --> 43:56.290]  I mean, and the other wonderful thing, it cost me a great deal of money, was the amateur radio license.
[43:56.510 --> 43:57.630]  I was just going to say that.
[43:57.790 --> 44:01.150]  You're now, again, you've got your ham license renewed.
[44:01.350 --> 44:04.770]  And I think you have the most expensive ham radio license ever in existence.
[44:05.090 --> 44:05.550]  Oh, yeah.
[44:05.630 --> 44:16.230]  And I might as well tell everybody listening that actually before I was allowed to use the internet, my girlfriend had relisted the laptops I used during my hacking heyday.
[44:16.810 --> 44:19.130]  These are the laptops that the FBI seized.
[44:19.310 --> 44:25.410]  And that was the subject of this, you know, four-and-a-half-year-long fight while I sat in prison.
[44:25.730 --> 44:33.610]  And we listed those laptops among the first one that I used to access the internet and write the book on and the OK900 phone.
[44:34.270 --> 44:41.950]  And then we listed, like, you know, 20 copies of the new book that I wrote, you know, that will be autographed with whatever you want.
[44:42.070 --> 44:46.490]  And we listed those on eBay a couple days ago.
[44:46.790 --> 44:52.130]  So, and what the purpose is, is, you know, it's not that I'm, you know, trying to get a windfall of cash.
[44:52.310 --> 44:59.690]  I'm trying to raise enough money to pay off the communications lawyer that defended me against the FCC recently.
[45:00.030 --> 45:10.710]  So, if anybody's interested, you can go to eBay or go to freecabin.com or defensivethinking.com and there's a little banner that says Buy Mitnick Memorabilia.
[45:10.950 --> 45:12.310]  If you click on it, you can see it all.
[45:13.570 --> 45:13.950]  Okay.
[45:14.110 --> 45:19.050]  Well, I hope nobody else has to go through all those hoops just to get their ham radio license renewed.
[45:19.170 --> 45:20.010]  That was really ridiculous.
[45:21.110 --> 45:21.830]  And you know what?
[45:21.910 --> 45:35.730]  I've got to tell you, this is so interesting, is Louis DePayne, my co-defendant, who was convicted in precisely the same case, just recently renewed his ham license several months before my hearing, like I believe it was like in May of 2002.
[45:36.030 --> 45:39.570]  The FCC didn't even blink an eye, right?
[45:39.570 --> 45:42.790]  So, it shows you that I was being subjected to a double standard here.
[45:42.930 --> 45:47.690]  And that FBI spy, what was that guy's name that got convicted three or four years ago for being the most...
[45:47.690 --> 45:47.990]  Hanson?
[45:48.370 --> 45:49.250]  Yeah, Robert Hanson.
[45:49.330 --> 45:50.410]  He was a licensed ham as well.
[45:50.430 --> 45:52.530]  They didn't take his ham license away from him.
[45:52.530 --> 45:57.630]  And he would supposedly cause more national security damage than any other person in the history of the country.
[45:57.870 --> 46:00.650]  But it's just that double standard.
[46:00.810 --> 46:01.230]  It's incredible.
[46:02.010 --> 46:05.370]  Of course, he can't really do much in the way of broadcasting from prison, can he?
[46:05.850 --> 46:07.010]  Well, you never know.
[46:07.590 --> 46:08.590]  Yeah, there you go.
[46:09.410 --> 46:10.710]  Okay, Bernie, thanks again.
[46:10.890 --> 46:11.970]  We've got to take some phone calls.
[46:12.270 --> 46:12.770]  Take care.
[46:12.830 --> 46:13.070]  Bye-bye.
[46:13.930 --> 46:14.290]  So long.
[46:14.750 --> 46:15.010]  All right.
[46:15.130 --> 46:19.090]  Our lines are ringing here at 212-209-2900.
[46:19.450 --> 46:19.730]  Okay.
[46:19.930 --> 46:20.490]  Let's take some calls.
[46:20.710 --> 46:21.270]  All right.
[46:23.130 --> 46:24.330]  Hello, you're on the air.
[46:24.950 --> 46:27.810]  Yes, I have a question to Kevin Mitnick.
[46:27.970 --> 46:31.590]  He just said that he's going to, with some lectures to Poland.
[46:31.890 --> 46:37.370]  Could you tell me we're in Poland so I could refer my relatives to hear you?
[46:38.250 --> 46:41.290]  It's a company that's sponsoring it, and it's in Warsaw.
[46:41.610 --> 46:41.870]  Yes.
[46:41.990 --> 46:49.450]  And if you email me at kmitnick at defensivethinking.com, I'll be happy to provide you that information.
[46:49.450 --> 46:53.510]  A kmitnickdefensivethinking.com.
[46:53.630 --> 46:53.890]  Okay.
[46:54.010 --> 46:54.670]  Thank you very much.
[46:54.870 --> 46:55.170]  All right.
[46:55.310 --> 46:56.390]  Hey, Eric, that reminds...
[46:56.390 --> 47:02.690]  I mean, Emmanuel, that reminds me, I'm going to need a 2600.com account.
[47:03.050 --> 47:03.450]  So I'm officially...
[47:04.010 --> 47:08.730]  Yeah, well, you already have a 2600.com account, but it's so filled with spam, we're going to have to make you a second account.
[47:08.870 --> 47:09.390]  There you go.
[47:09.390 --> 47:17.410]  And in fact, if any of our system administrators are listening, that's an instruction to give me a call as soon as possible so we can set that up.
[47:17.550 --> 47:19.690]  And yeah, we look forward to having you on the system.
[47:20.270 --> 47:30.050]  And Emmanuel, one of the things I wanted to get through tonight was that we need to let our listeners out in Chicago know that the Illegal Art Exhibition is going to open up very soon.
[47:30.570 --> 47:38.350]  And anyone interested should go to illegal-art.org and find out exactly where that's going to be.
[47:39.150 --> 47:41.670]  Okay, and that was a great deal of fun in New York when we went to that one.
[47:41.830 --> 47:42.370]  Oh, yes.
[47:42.570 --> 47:46.570]  Maybe I'll stop by on the way back, you know, because we're going back in the northern part of the country.
[47:46.890 --> 47:48.910]  And let me just give people that information, too.
[47:49.330 --> 47:52.070]  We're heading down to the southern part of California.
[47:52.070 --> 47:56.690]  We'll be heading back up to the northern part, looping around the northern part of the country and heading back that way.
[47:56.830 --> 47:58.990]  I have a lot of adventures to tell, but not this week.
[47:58.990 --> 47:59.750]  We'll tell them next week.
[47:59.790 --> 48:00.890]  I have information on I-19.
[48:00.930 --> 48:02.930]  We'll get into that in weeks ahead.
[48:03.390 --> 48:12.350]  If anyone wants to email us and meet up with the returning Mitnick Liberation Caravan, Ben, the address is downtime at 2600.com.
[48:12.510 --> 48:16.450]  That's downtime as in freedom, downtime without the freedom at 2600.com.
[48:16.710 --> 48:17.650]  So we'll take some more calls.
[48:17.810 --> 48:18.030]  All right.
[48:18.110 --> 48:21.650]  And it might be a good idea to actually deliberately go to that show because they are...
[48:21.650 --> 48:27.490]  There was an article in the Times on the 7th, and they're basically expecting some legal action this time.
[48:27.510 --> 48:28.330]  So it should be interesting.
[48:29.450 --> 48:29.710]  Okay.
[48:30.610 --> 48:31.050]  Hello.
[48:31.190 --> 48:31.650]  You're on the air.
[48:32.270 --> 48:33.270]  Oh, no, you're not.
[48:34.170 --> 48:36.070]  Kevin, you can whistle something and make that go away.
[48:37.270 --> 48:38.990]  Like whistle 2600, right?
[48:40.350 --> 48:40.790]  Hello.
[48:40.810 --> 48:41.430]  You're on the air.
[48:41.850 --> 48:42.170]  Hi.
[48:42.350 --> 48:42.770]  It's Sandra.
[48:43.510 --> 48:45.050]  Welcome to freedom, Kevin.
[48:45.790 --> 48:46.210]  Thank you.
[48:46.570 --> 48:56.530]  The late, great Phil Berrigan, while he was still alive, of course, said that everybody should spend time in prison.
[48:57.850 --> 49:04.030]  Everyone, especially middle class, should spend time in prison so they could know about the prison and justice system.
[49:04.150 --> 49:05.730]  And would you like to comment on that?
[49:05.870 --> 49:06.990]  I'll listen off to you.
[49:08.970 --> 49:14.410]  Well, I don't think that everyone should sit in prison, you know, to experience the experience.
[49:14.410 --> 49:29.610]  What I do think is if you're a federal law enforcement officer or a judge, that they should be required to spend like a week in a real lockup to experience what they're sending people that are, you know, convicted of crime so they understand the impact that it has on their lives.
[49:29.750 --> 49:40.370]  Just like a law enforcement officer has to be maced or pepper sprayed before they could be actually issued the equipment or the permit to do it to others.
[49:40.810 --> 49:44.370]  People should know prison is not a nice place at all.
[49:44.470 --> 49:49.330]  I think a lot of people think that prisons are country clubs, and they're not.
[49:49.470 --> 49:50.830]  I've never seen one that is.
[49:51.410 --> 49:58.350]  I'm sure, you know, there might be some that exist for, you know, government prisoners, people who are in the government who are accused of all kinds of things.
[49:58.550 --> 49:59.530]  They might get it easier.
[49:59.530 --> 50:00.410]  I don't know for sure.
[50:00.710 --> 50:04.530]  But people need to realize what's really involved in the day-to-day experiences.
[50:04.530 --> 50:06.110]  That people like you have had to go up to.
[50:08.910 --> 50:09.990]  Hello, you're on the air.
[50:10.730 --> 50:11.330]  Good evening.
[50:11.890 --> 50:12.450]  Good evening.
[50:12.650 --> 50:14.030]  I'd like to ask a question.
[50:14.310 --> 50:23.910]  Now, you brought up a very good point there about how the system is sort of like locked you out of computers and database systems.
[50:24.870 --> 50:34.790]  I was wondering, how could they take away these things, which in turn, they're trying to put a lock on your mind, in a sense.
[50:34.890 --> 50:39.830]  Well, they can't stop anybody from thinking, you know, I don't think they have the thought police yet.
[50:39.830 --> 50:40.490]  Do they, Emmanuel?
[50:42.090 --> 50:44.450]  Not that I see, but then again, it could be invisible.
[50:44.670 --> 50:45.630]  They're working on it.
[50:45.810 --> 50:50.490]  But what they tried to do, or what their intentions were, was to keep me away from technology.
[50:50.910 --> 50:54.390]  Their theory is that they keep me away from technology and protects the public.
[50:56.270 --> 51:03.170]  Of course, I didn't agree with their assessment, but I understood the reasoning that they had.
[51:03.310 --> 51:06.950]  But they can't stop, you know, people from, you know, thinking.
[51:07.430 --> 51:13.250]  You know, that's just, I mean, what they could do is maybe encourage a different line of thinking.
[51:13.390 --> 51:15.750]  But what they did with me was purely punitive.
[51:16.010 --> 51:24.810]  And when you're on supervised release, you know, you already suffer a great punishment of being away from your family and away from your life for a certain period of time.
[51:25.150 --> 51:31.770]  And supervised release is all about reintegrating you into the community so you become a productive member of society.
[51:32.110 --> 51:39.430]  In my case, the approach they took is this guy, you know, is we just have to keep him away from technology.
[51:39.890 --> 51:43.070]  And it didn't matter about a successful integration.
[51:43.350 --> 51:48.690]  Fortunately, I was able to take the, you know, bull by the horns and become successful.
[51:49.250 --> 51:51.590]  But that was really no thanks to the federal government.
[51:51.770 --> 51:52.710]  That was really...
[51:52.710 --> 51:57.950]  Well, my probation officer, the guys that actually supervised me directly, were actually helpful.
[51:58.270 --> 52:00.370]  And they weren't mean-spirited.
[52:00.730 --> 52:11.390]  I could have really been unfortunate and got a probation officer who was new, right, you know, a new employee that wanted to really make a name for himself about being, you know, a big tough guy.
[52:11.550 --> 52:13.090]  Fortunately, that didn't happen in my case.
[52:13.090 --> 52:19.730]  Yeah, but what about if you sat down and wrote a program and code saying...
[52:19.730 --> 52:20.830]  Well, that was against my probation.
[52:20.970 --> 52:21.470]  I couldn't do it.
[52:21.750 --> 52:25.390]  So in a sense that you were almost barred from writing because...
[52:25.390 --> 52:26.890]  Oh, I still can't write my story.
[52:26.890 --> 52:40.910]  I can't write my autobiography and profit even to this date, which I intend to challenge because as one of the things I had assigned with the federal government was an assignment agreement that basically said I wouldn't profit off telling the Kevin Mitnick story in any medium,
[52:41.110 --> 52:48.790]  be it a book, a magazine, a newspaper article, a feature film, a movie of the week, a period.
[52:49.070 --> 52:52.330]  And if I didn't sign that agreement, they were going to keep me in jail.
[52:52.690 --> 52:55.010]  And so now I intend to challenge that.
[52:55.190 --> 53:00.310]  The problem is it would be another expensive legal fight because the federal government, the U.S.
[53:00.390 --> 53:07.270]  Attorney's Office, has, you know, pretty much a bottomless pit of money to do whatever they want, I guess within reason, though.
[53:07.810 --> 53:12.870]  And on the other hand, if I were to fight this, it would probably cost, you know, a lot of money.
[53:14.130 --> 53:26.110]  And even if I prevailed, the amount I would earn from, you know, being able to do my story might not be enough to cover the legal bills that it would take to fight for my right to speak freely.
[53:26.630 --> 53:27.570]  You know, that's what it's about.
[53:27.710 --> 53:28.770]  It's about the freedom of speech.
[53:28.970 --> 53:38.830]  Yeah, but I mean, in a sense that you're being denied the right to write a bibliography or an essay, which in turn is your personal writing, which is...
[53:38.830 --> 53:40.750]  Well, I'm not being denied the ability to write.
[53:40.850 --> 53:42.490]  I'm being denied the...
[53:42.490 --> 53:44.430]  I'm being disadvantaged by the...
[53:44.430 --> 53:49.410]  Economically disadvantaged by the government saying, you can write what you want, but you can't make any money doing it.
[53:50.790 --> 53:52.790]  Okay, let's move on to another call, okay?
[53:53.430 --> 53:53.810]  Okay.
[53:54.330 --> 53:55.310]  Thanks, sir, for the next question.
[53:55.650 --> 54:08.430]  And, Kevin, does it work like a business where you're, you know, basically you've got bills to pay, does it come out that, okay, now you've got $10 profit, that you can't make, but at least you can pay off, you know, thousands of dollars of bills, or no?
[54:08.910 --> 54:10.130]  You just can't make any money.
[54:10.210 --> 54:21.590]  I haven't tested it yet, but basically, I can tell you, if I were to come out with like a Kevin Mitnick movie, like kind of like the Catch Me If You Can, the Frank Abagnale, which I really love that title.
[54:21.710 --> 54:22.230]  It was very clever.
[54:23.690 --> 54:29.450]  Certainly, they would try to seize any profits, and the Civil Division of the U.S.
[54:29.710 --> 54:35.450]  Attorney's Office would, you know, try to seize any money, to allegedly pay off the victims, in my case.
[54:35.670 --> 54:44.410]  And that's a very interesting issue, because the government, to make me into the, you know, Osama bin Mitnick of the Internet, had claimed that I caused these humongous losses.
[54:44.570 --> 54:46.450]  Now, surely I did cause some loss.
[54:46.550 --> 54:51.370]  I don't know if it was $5,000, $10,000, or $500,000, which I'm sorry for, and which I shouldn't have done.
[54:51.570 --> 55:08.750]  But at the same time, what they had done is, under the federal sentencing guidelines, when you're busted for, you're convicted of a fraud or a theft-related crime, basically, how they determine your sentence is, they pick a sentencing guideline based on the value of the property taken or destroyed,
[55:09.070 --> 55:11.030]  which, when it's tangible, it makes sense.
[55:11.030 --> 55:17.030]  Because if you steal a car, well, the value of the car is really, kind of equates to the loss.
[55:17.130 --> 55:17.710]  It makes sense.
[55:18.030 --> 55:30.970]  But in the case of information, because I looked at, or I accessed, without permission, source code, just by accessing the source code, did I deprive these companies of the value of the source code.
[55:31.090 --> 55:41.250]  And that's the, then the government basically took a guideline that applied to tangible, tangible objects, and applied it to information.
[55:41.490 --> 56:00.410]  So they had claimed by just me looking at or moving a copy of source code to like, you know, Solaris or to SGI, you know, or whatever, even like, for example, Windows, which wasn't the case in my case, that I had somehow deprived these companies of their original R&D investment to make these products.
[56:00.690 --> 56:03.710]  And I was never accused of using it, disclosing it.
[56:03.830 --> 56:07.610]  I was just, you know, accused of breaching the confidentiality by looking at it.
[56:07.690 --> 56:21.130]  And that's how the government was able to create such a boo-ha-ha that it caused these millions and millions of dollars of loss by simply taking the position, by me looking at information that now, that information is now rendered useless.
[56:22.110 --> 56:23.230]  Jeff, do we have time for one more call?
[56:24.250 --> 56:25.510]  I'm getting a head shake.
[56:26.190 --> 56:27.050]  I'm getting a no.
[56:27.430 --> 56:28.770]  Up and down, or side to side?
[56:28.870 --> 56:29.910]  Side to side, no.
[56:30.010 --> 56:30.770]  We are, unfortunately.
[56:31.650 --> 56:35.810]  All right, well, Kevin Mitnick, it's been great having you on the show, and great having you talk to Bernie S.
[56:36.690 --> 56:37.090]  Congratulations.
[56:37.750 --> 56:54.730]  Hey, and Eric, I got to thank you for the support, your support, the support, of 2,600 and many, many others out there that have really stood behind me during this long ordeal with the criminal justice system and the federal government.
[56:54.870 --> 57:00.270]  And I just want to thank everyone from the bottom of my heart for their generosity and their support.
[57:00.450 --> 57:06.990]  I mean, it really made a difference in being able to get through this ordeal.
[57:07.750 --> 57:08.390]  All right.
[57:08.770 --> 57:09.850]  Well, you're a real inspiration.
[57:10.050 --> 57:10.450]  Thanks again.
[57:10.530 --> 57:11.410]  We'll talk to you again soon.
[57:11.410 --> 57:12.130]  All righty, Manuel.
[57:12.350 --> 57:13.210]  Have a great night.
[57:21.480 --> 57:26.060]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I'll rip you off the wall.
[57:26.920 --> 57:31.560]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[57:32.340 --> 57:34.200]  We're turning it much worse.
[58:08.030 --> 58:14.910]  Hi, this is Prairie Miller for the WBAI Arts Magazine, Tuesdays at 2 p.m.
[58:14.910 --> 58:23.350]  You're listening to WBAI New York, 99.5 FM, people-supported, corporate-free radio.
[58:23.610 --> 58:27.850]  And here's a filmmaker I spoke to who likes what we're doing.
[58:28.230 --> 58:35.090]  Hi, this is Michael Moore, and I want to tell all the people listening to WBAI to hang in there, keep the struggle going.
[58:35.430 --> 58:36.350]  Things are looking better.
[58:36.350 --> 58:40.030]  The more crooks in corporate America we can put in jail, the better.
[58:40.610 --> 58:44.030]  And the rest of the country is with us now, so let's get organizing.
[58:44.410 --> 58:48.230]  I think people now are finally getting the message, and it's a very positive thing.
[58:48.350 --> 58:51.390]  It's a very... I'm very optimistic of change occurring.
[58:51.670 --> 58:53.390]  It's up to us now to do the organizing.
[58:53.390 --> 58:53.590]  Thank you.