[00:00.000 --> 00:04.180]  The complex is listed as part of Korczak's expanded plan for the site.
[00:04.540 --> 00:08.460]  The sculptor's widow, Ruth, and seven of his children work at the memorial.
[00:09.060 --> 00:14.100]  And Jolkowski's view on the controversy the memorial has caused in Indian country is direct.
[00:14.660 --> 00:16.900]  Well, you're not going to please everybody.
[00:17.140 --> 00:18.120]  I don't care what you do.
[00:18.200 --> 00:19.220]  You're not going to please everybody.
[00:19.360 --> 00:27.660]  The problem, according to Crazy Horse descendant Elaine Quiver, is that Henry Standing Bear had no right to petition Jolkowski to create the mountain carving in the first place.
[00:27.660 --> 00:32.280]  Quiver says Lakota culture dictates consensus from family members on such a decision.
[00:32.700 --> 00:35.100]  Quiver adds that no one bothered to ask the decision...
[00:35.100 --> 00:36.700]  Okay, I gotta cut in here.
[00:36.780 --> 00:38.240]  It's two minutes after seven o'clock time.
[00:38.700 --> 00:39.960]  Two minutes ago for off the hook.
[00:40.220 --> 00:42.240]  Maybe free speech radio news will start on time next week.
[00:42.460 --> 00:43.160]  We'll see.
[00:48.760 --> 00:53.080]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:54.140 --> 00:58.540]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:59.580 --> 01:01.340]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:02.240 --> 01:03.900]  But if they could, they would.
[01:04.160 --> 01:06.800]  But Billy Bump would the best expect the worst.
[01:07.680 --> 01:09.320]  I hope that's understood.
[01:09.700 --> 01:10.360]  But Billy Bump!
[01:25.690 --> 01:26.650]  And a good evening to everybody.
[01:26.750 --> 01:27.570]  The program is off the hook.
[01:28.750 --> 01:31.970]  Can you imagine what would happen to me if I stayed two minutes into the personal computer show?
[01:32.570 --> 01:33.810]  No, I don't want to even think about it.
[01:33.870 --> 01:35.050]  Do you know what those guys would do to me?
[01:35.250 --> 01:36.030]  Do you have any idea?
[01:36.270 --> 01:36.790]  And they're big.
[01:36.790 --> 01:41.870]  I get dirty looks starting at 7.30, you know, that I'm not preparing to leave.
[01:42.170 --> 01:43.070]  They'd call in the feds.
[01:43.330 --> 01:44.350]  They would call in the feds.
[01:44.350 --> 01:45.730]  And they have the phone numbers, too.
[01:45.770 --> 01:47.650]  It would be a terrorist act on your part.
[01:47.950 --> 01:48.750]  Yeah, it could be.
[01:48.850 --> 01:49.150]  It could be.
[01:49.290 --> 01:58.350]  But if you're upset by the fact that story got faded down two minutes late, you can tune in again tonight at, I believe, 11.30 when we repeat it.
[01:59.130 --> 02:00.170]  I believe we repeat it.
[02:00.530 --> 02:02.830]  And then some other show can cut it off.
[02:03.630 --> 02:04.750]  It just might happen.
[02:04.770 --> 02:06.190]  I don't know if it starts late again.
[02:06.990 --> 02:11.510]  Anyway, this is WBAI, where time really doesn't matter all that much, except when it gets ridiculous.
[02:13.190 --> 02:14.430]  And this is Off the Hook.
[02:14.550 --> 02:15.590]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:15.790 --> 02:17.010]  Jeff over there.
[02:17.330 --> 02:18.290]  And Mike.
[02:18.710 --> 02:19.030]  Hi.
[02:19.190 --> 02:19.610]  Red Hack.
[02:20.370 --> 02:20.730]  Jim.
[02:21.950 --> 02:24.690]  And a cast of thousands in various other places.
[02:24.710 --> 02:30.390]  And we have all kinds of interesting things to talk about tonight and some special guests and things like that.
[02:31.890 --> 02:40.430]  Well, it's been a week of more talk about terrorist alerts and patriot acts and things like that.
[02:40.430 --> 02:49.730]  But, you know, the color-coded system is undergoing some changes.
[02:50.150 --> 02:51.170]  That's the system...
[02:51.170 --> 02:52.130]  What color are we at right now, Mike?
[02:52.350 --> 02:53.310]  I think we're at yellow.
[02:53.570 --> 02:54.030]  We're at yellow.
[02:54.350 --> 02:56.370]  Well, what's going to happen?
[02:56.390 --> 02:58.970]  We're not going to be able to change to orange quite so easily anymore.
[03:00.050 --> 03:08.210]  According to the New York Times, the color-coded terrorism alert system, which some people have been harshly criticizing...
[03:08.730 --> 03:10.310]  I can't imagine who...
[03:10.310 --> 03:15.650]  It's being revamped to make it far more difficult for the government to justify raising the threat level.
[03:16.590 --> 03:20.310]  So that means next time we hear that it's orange, we better be really scared.
[03:21.690 --> 03:22.570]  I will be.
[03:22.830 --> 03:24.350]  I'm already scared at yellow.
[03:24.570 --> 03:26.370]  Yeah, well, the alert level is not yellow.
[03:26.390 --> 03:27.270]  They verify that.
[03:27.270 --> 03:30.670]  It represents an elevated threat, the midpoint, and the five-color scheme.
[03:32.090 --> 03:39.130]  Apparently, now it's going to be raised only if there's credible, detailed evidence of an imminent terrorist attack on American soil.
[03:39.670 --> 03:42.190]  Now, you wonder, what would red be then, you know?
[03:42.630 --> 03:44.170]  Red would be a terrorist attack in progress.
[03:44.330 --> 03:48.970]  I mean, that means while something is happening, someone's got to take the time to change the color, you know?
[03:49.370 --> 03:50.870]  Instead of ducking for cover...
[03:50.870 --> 03:52.650]  Oh, excuse me, we're now at red, everybody.
[03:53.110 --> 03:55.550]  While all-out war is breaking up.
[03:55.550 --> 03:58.610]  You underestimate the number of government bureaucrats that exist.
[03:58.890 --> 03:59.610]  Yeah, yeah.
[04:00.970 --> 04:02.290]  What if it's not terrorism?
[04:02.410 --> 04:04.330]  What if it's just like an invasion by another country?
[04:04.610 --> 04:06.830]  Because when we invade other countries, we don't consider that terrorism.
[04:07.030 --> 04:08.170]  We consider it a justifiable raid.
[04:08.290 --> 04:12.530]  Now, I'm not saying that any other country has the right to raid us, or a justifiable reason.
[04:12.690 --> 04:13.630]  But they might someday.
[04:14.090 --> 04:17.110]  Is that going to be cause to raise the terror alert?
[04:17.210 --> 04:18.010]  Is it terror, then?
[04:18.010 --> 04:22.130]  Well, as you know, the winners are freedom fighters, the losers are terrorists.
[04:22.470 --> 04:23.350]  That's right, that's right.
[04:25.610 --> 04:27.950]  Well, anyway, the color-coded system...
[04:27.950 --> 04:29.390]  Does anybody know when it was introduced?
[04:29.670 --> 04:31.250]  Some people think it was September 2001.
[04:31.430 --> 04:31.830]  They're wrong.
[04:33.890 --> 04:34.770]  Why don't you tell us?
[04:34.830 --> 04:35.570]  August 2001.
[04:36.670 --> 04:36.930]  Oh.
[04:37.030 --> 04:38.550]  I just want to see the look on your face now.
[04:38.630 --> 04:39.590]  Did you actually believe that, Jim?
[04:40.010 --> 04:40.670]  Oh, it's live?
[04:41.650 --> 04:43.190]  Wow, okay, I still have it.
[04:43.590 --> 04:45.570]  No, March 2002.
[04:46.830 --> 04:51.690]  And known formally as the Homeland Security Advisory System.
[04:52.510 --> 04:55.730]  And it's been criticized for having unnecessarily confused and alarmed the public.
[04:57.170 --> 04:58.550]  Unnecessarily confusing and alarming.
[04:59.010 --> 05:00.810]  I think it's just funny, myself.
[05:01.490 --> 05:04.010]  It's been the funniest part of all this, actually.
[05:04.370 --> 05:06.930]  Apart from the occasional things that Ashcroft and Bush say.
[05:07.650 --> 05:09.310]  Ashcroft, oh boy, he's fit to be tied.
[05:09.310 --> 05:14.630]  But he's apparently been hearing all the things that people have been saying about the Patriot Act.
[05:14.990 --> 05:21.390]  You know, all the confusion that has been taking place over the past however long.
[05:21.610 --> 05:24.190]  Even some of the states are rebelling, aren't they?
[05:24.350 --> 05:25.850]  Oh, yeah, yeah, that's been happening for a while, too.
[05:26.410 --> 05:29.310]  But he denounced it all as hysteria.
[05:29.990 --> 05:31.290]  Yeah, the contention...
[05:31.290 --> 05:33.290]  It's funny how librarians are always the first ones to get named.
[05:33.470 --> 05:39.070]  The contention by some librarians, some librarians, they're causing all the problems, just some librarians out there.
[05:39.310 --> 05:40.690]  And civil liberties groups.
[05:42.330 --> 05:43.850]  But the librarians come first.
[05:45.290 --> 05:51.490]  He takes exception to the contention that the FBI can use a new anti-terror law to snoop into Americans' reading habits.
[05:52.750 --> 05:56.650]  In a speech Monday to an American Restaurant Association conference...
[05:56.650 --> 05:57.010]  What?
[05:57.950 --> 05:59.790]  He's playing the safe audiences.
[06:00.530 --> 06:06.650]  Who in an American Restaurant Association audience is going to stand up and say, John Ashcroft, you Nazi, what you're doing to our country is horrible.
[06:06.650 --> 06:08.850]  Well, you know, they've changed the name of French dressing.
[06:09.090 --> 06:11.730]  Why is he even talking to restaurateurs anyway?
[06:11.870 --> 06:14.790]  I mean, what does Homeland Security have to do with this?
[06:15.850 --> 06:24.730]  You remember the Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh and his followers spraying salmonella on salad bars in Washington or Oregon?
[06:25.930 --> 06:28.850]  You know, I one forgot about that, but...
[06:28.850 --> 06:29.630]  It actually happened.
[06:30.310 --> 06:30.690]  Okay.
[06:30.890 --> 06:43.850]  Well, anyway, so he was talking to these people in the Restaurant Association, saying that others are being wrongly led to believe that libraries have been surrounded by the FBI with agents dressed in raincoats, dark suits, and sunglasses.
[06:43.850 --> 06:45.590]  I don't think the librarians ever said that.
[06:45.770 --> 06:46.950]  I didn't think those people were FBI.
[06:46.950 --> 06:50.370]  They stopped everyone and interrogated everyone like Joe Friday.
[06:52.070 --> 06:56.630]  Now, you may have thought, with all this hysteria and hyperbole, something had to be wrong.
[06:57.130 --> 07:02.330]  See, you know it's Ashcroft speaking, not Bush, when he uses a word like hyperbole, which Bush would have to look up.
[07:02.790 --> 07:05.650]  Do we at the Justice Department really care what you are reading?
[07:06.290 --> 07:06.690]  No.
[07:07.470 --> 07:09.030]  Well, that sounds kind of nasty, doesn't it?
[07:09.030 --> 07:10.530]  They don't care.
[07:11.470 --> 07:20.450]  A portion of the Patriot Act passed shortly after the 2001 terror attacks gives federal authorities access to library, bookstore, and other business records as part of terrorism investigations.
[07:20.970 --> 07:27.210]  Some libraries have been purging their records more frequently and posting signs warning that the records could be checked by the FBI.
[07:28.070 --> 07:34.330]  The provision has drawn a legal challenge in the federal lawsuit filed in July by the American Civil Liberties Union and Islamic groups.
[07:36.850 --> 07:41.130]  I hope the ALA, the American Library Association, is in on it.
[07:41.870 --> 07:43.510]  I imagine they would be.
[07:44.010 --> 07:55.890]  Ashcroft is saying that subpoenas of library records are closely scrutinized by federal judges and the FBI, with 11,000 agents, could never begin to monitor the reading habits of millions of library patrons, even if it wanted to.
[07:56.490 --> 07:57.710]  They'd need more staff.
[07:58.510 --> 08:01.630]  But they could certainly cover all the Muslims in America pretty easily.
[08:01.650 --> 08:02.210]  They could do that.
[08:02.350 --> 08:03.490]  They could get some computers.
[08:03.490 --> 08:07.610]  Yeah, the computer to just check, you know, maybe a blacklist of books.
[08:08.190 --> 08:08.830]  That would be...
[08:08.830 --> 08:09.810]  And those are...
[08:09.810 --> 08:10.570]  A blacklist of books, yeah.
[08:10.570 --> 08:12.090]  Those are only the books that are checked out.
[08:12.210 --> 08:16.290]  If you go in, pull it off the shelf, sit down, read what you want, make your copies, and go.
[08:16.510 --> 08:19.410]  Yeah, but what about that technology that tracks where the thing is?
[08:19.570 --> 08:21.170]  You know, what they're using in stores now.
[08:21.470 --> 08:22.610]  I'll tell you where the merchandise is.
[08:22.910 --> 08:23.710]  The RFID.
[08:23.950 --> 08:24.730]  Yeah, the RFID.
[08:24.910 --> 08:25.850]  They put that on a book.
[08:25.890 --> 08:29.830]  As soon as the book leaves the shelf, a little buzzer goes off, and, you know, a camera goes on.
[08:31.030 --> 08:32.170]  It's entirely possible.
[08:32.330 --> 08:32.890]  You know it is.
[08:32.890 --> 08:35.070]  Things that we're looking at today were not possible 20 years ago.
[08:35.250 --> 08:38.890]  Just to allay paranoia, there's no evidence that that's happening yet, but wait a year.
[08:39.130 --> 08:39.950]  Well, you know, someone...
[08:39.950 --> 08:42.710]  I was at the 2600 meeting in Prague that I was at this September.
[08:43.010 --> 08:45.630]  I had a very interesting discussion with somebody about cell phones.
[08:45.870 --> 08:50.570]  And about what can be done with proximity technology.
[08:51.710 --> 09:02.570]  With all the governments being interested in being able to find where people are calling from, because people call in bomb threats or, you know, calling to harass somebody, you need to know exactly where they are.
[09:02.570 --> 09:15.530]  Well, what happens at the next WTO rally, or the rally, you know, against the Republican convention here in New York in September of 2004, everybody's cell phone is basically a way of locating you.
[09:15.530 --> 09:18.450]  And a signal could be sent out to see who was there.
[09:18.830 --> 09:21.070]  And arrests could be, you know, issued later.
[09:22.330 --> 09:33.890]  If somebody, if a bank gets robbed, for instance, you can find out with this technology who was there, what phone numbers were on the street, even if they were turned off, from what I understand.
[09:34.170 --> 09:35.710]  Time to switch to walkie-talkies.
[09:35.830 --> 09:35.970]  Yeah.
[09:36.090 --> 09:39.730]  Actually, not if they're turned off, even if they're not being used, even if they're just in your pocket.
[09:41.410 --> 09:47.970]  But I'm told that the newer phones, the newer phones can receive signals when they are turned off, so that's something to look into.
[09:47.970 --> 09:51.010]  Sort of like a wake-on-land kind of thing?
[09:51.250 --> 09:51.730]  Could be.
[09:51.830 --> 09:54.670]  The only real protection is to take the battery out.
[09:55.150 --> 09:58.850]  That might not be true, but it certainly is something they would like to have.
[09:59.270 --> 10:02.890]  Imagine that, you know, what better way to track people than something that everyone wants to carry?
[10:03.510 --> 10:04.290]  Namely a phone.
[10:05.790 --> 10:08.770]  So, yeah, that's pretty scary technology right there.
[10:09.790 --> 10:11.770]  But here's the sound bite.
[10:11.890 --> 10:13.410]  You ready for the sound bite from John Ashcroft?
[10:13.610 --> 10:15.150]  The hysteria is ridiculous.
[10:15.890 --> 10:17.390]  Our job is not.
[10:20.270 --> 10:23.210]  And that's the latest from down there.
[10:24.730 --> 10:27.710]  Now, we've gotten quite a number of...
[10:27.710 --> 10:33.230]  Mike, what was the story we got where everybody kept sending us over and over again about the Patriot Act?
[10:33.470 --> 10:34.930]  The Patriot Act...
[10:35.550 --> 10:40.130]  I want anyone in the room who's surprised to raise their hand after I say this.
[10:40.310 --> 10:44.770]  The Patriot Act is being used not only against terrorists, but against common criminals.
[10:45.010 --> 10:45.990]  Is there any surprise?
[10:47.030 --> 10:47.450]  No.
[10:47.990 --> 10:48.830]  No, I don't think so.
[10:48.930 --> 10:49.070]  No.
[10:49.170 --> 10:49.450]  I don't think so.
[10:50.090 --> 10:50.850]  Well, okay.
[10:51.130 --> 11:00.550]  Now, doesn't this sort of fly in the face of what Ashcroft is saying about how, you know, we're not going to be spying or doing things against millions of people, only the people that are of interest in terrorist investigations?
[11:00.830 --> 11:05.830]  Well, I mean, the Patriot Act is supposedly only for people that are being investigated in terrorist type things, right?
[11:05.830 --> 11:06.270]  Wait, wait, wait.
[11:06.390 --> 11:09.590]  Are you calling John Ashcroft, our attorney general, a liar?
[11:09.670 --> 11:10.050]  Not yet.
[11:10.210 --> 11:10.550]  Not yet.
[11:10.650 --> 11:13.390]  What I'm doing right now is gathering the evidence in order to be able to do that.
[11:13.510 --> 11:14.950]  He's just saying he's fibbing.
[11:15.150 --> 11:17.050]  I'm just trying to figure out where he's coming from now.
[11:17.210 --> 11:25.330]  He says in one breath that, you know, only the people who are, you know, guilty of various crimes should worry about this.
[11:25.330 --> 11:31.390]  But now anybody who's guilty of any crime or even suspected of any crime can be targeted by the Patriot Act.
[11:31.610 --> 11:33.970]  I don't think they were saying this when they first introduced this legislation.
[11:34.570 --> 11:35.110]  Were they?
[11:35.310 --> 11:35.470]  No.
[11:35.530 --> 11:36.410]  No, they weren't saying this then.
[11:37.250 --> 11:38.830]  Well, okay, let's see what the story says.
[11:39.290 --> 11:53.190]  The two years, in the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al-Qaeda sales, but on people charged with common crimes.
[11:53.190 --> 12:03.250]  The Justice Department has used the authority given to it by the USA Patriot Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists, and drug dealers.
[12:04.070 --> 12:06.690]  Well, you know, drug dealers, they fund terrorism, right?
[12:07.230 --> 12:09.050]  Yeah, unless they're incorporated.
[12:09.730 --> 12:21.730]  Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.
[12:22.370 --> 12:23.610]  That's going to leave a mark.
[12:24.270 --> 12:26.570]  Yeah, well, you know, I don't know.
[12:27.090 --> 12:28.850]  That's a weird case right there.
[12:29.070 --> 12:37.110]  A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a metamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons.
[12:37.810 --> 12:38.950]  Oh, that's interesting.
[12:39.310 --> 12:40.350]  Chemical weapons.
[12:41.030 --> 12:41.530]  Metamphetamine.
[12:41.630 --> 12:42.090]  Oh, my goodness.
[12:42.450 --> 12:48.130]  If convicted, he could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.
[12:50.250 --> 13:02.090]  Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury and contains toxic chemicals.
[13:02.850 --> 13:05.870]  Boy, wouldn't aspirin qualify for that, then?
[13:06.190 --> 13:07.350]  He's actually...
[13:07.350 --> 13:08.490]  Why is he going to mic work with us?
[13:08.610 --> 13:08.830]  Go ahead.
[13:08.910 --> 13:09.050]  Sorry.
[13:09.150 --> 13:22.510]  He's actually being charged with that because in the process of making methamphetamines, a lot of toxic chemicals are released and apparently can get into the ground and the water and...
[13:22.510 --> 13:24.830]  Well, then they should be charging all of corporate America with that.
[13:24.830 --> 13:28.130]  I was just going to say, there's an opportunity here that's not being taken.
[13:28.130 --> 13:31.730]  We can go after polluters with the Patriot Act.
[13:32.030 --> 13:32.270]  Yeah.
[13:32.270 --> 13:33.110]  I mean, look at Bhopal.
[13:33.230 --> 13:36.750]  You know, what happened there is a good example of what can take place.
[13:37.230 --> 13:38.210]  It's a state law.
[13:38.330 --> 13:39.990]  It's not the Patriot Act in that case.
[13:40.810 --> 13:42.970]  That's actually a cheap shot the reporters taking.
[13:43.450 --> 13:45.370]  This would be Bhopal, Indiana or what?
[13:45.670 --> 13:46.090]  India.
[13:46.710 --> 13:46.870]  Ah.
[13:47.350 --> 13:47.690]  Yeah.
[13:49.350 --> 13:51.110]  What, you're saying this isn't the Patriot Act?
[13:51.210 --> 13:51.350]  Yeah.
[13:51.470 --> 13:55.110]  It says in the first sentence about that case that it's a state law.
[13:56.930 --> 13:57.350]  Yeah.
[13:57.570 --> 13:58.070]  Reread it.
[13:58.750 --> 13:59.770]  In the first paragraph.
[14:00.150 --> 14:00.690]  Well, no.
[14:01.290 --> 14:02.090]  You find it.
[14:02.270 --> 14:03.250]  I'm trying to go through this.
[14:03.510 --> 14:18.230]  Let's also not forget about Sherman Austin, who we've mentioned on this show before of Raisethefist.com, who just started a year-long prison term for hosting a website that he apparently didn't even write, which contained information about how to manufacture bombs.
[14:18.750 --> 14:20.330]  Not even very good information.
[14:20.370 --> 14:27.290]  And the actual law that he was charged under was involved him, or something to do with intent.
[14:27.290 --> 14:32.270]  So it was intent of distributing the information, or the intent to cause violence or something.
[14:32.390 --> 14:33.610]  But you can't really prove intent.
[14:34.070 --> 14:40.250]  Now, I understand he's not having a good time in prison right now, either, being targeted by white supremacists and things like that.
[14:40.410 --> 14:40.670]  Yeah.
[14:42.190 --> 14:43.890]  I mean, it's the kind of thing that happens to you in prison.
[14:45.070 --> 14:46.130]  People shouldn't act surprised.
[14:46.130 --> 14:47.630]  Like, oh my God, we didn't think that was going to happen.
[14:47.710 --> 14:49.710]  When you sentence somebody to prison, you're sentencing them to hell.
[14:50.390 --> 14:55.690]  Back to the Patriot Act and how it's not applicable in one of these examples given in that story.
[14:55.690 --> 14:57.390]  I read again that paragraph that you read.
[14:57.590 --> 15:04.870]  A North Carolina County prosecutor charged a man accused of running a metamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law.
[15:04.990 --> 15:05.790]  Ah, a new state law.
[15:05.870 --> 15:06.030]  Okay.
[15:06.110 --> 15:07.670]  Barring the manufacture of chemical weapons.
[15:08.730 --> 15:11.810]  Now, is this designed after the Patriot Act?
[15:11.810 --> 15:12.990]  I would guess so.
[15:13.430 --> 15:15.010]  Okay, well then it doesn't really make that much difference.
[15:15.170 --> 15:17.530]  He could have been charged under the Patriot Act by a federal prosecutor, right?
[15:18.290 --> 15:21.730]  Because a state prosecutor can't charge you under a federal crime.
[15:22.070 --> 15:22.910]  I mean, I'm not really sure.
[15:22.970 --> 15:23.910]  Right, right, right, right, right, right.
[15:25.190 --> 15:30.730]  State prosecutors enforce state laws, prosecute for state laws, federal prosecutors for federal laws.
[15:31.870 --> 15:51.610]  If you listened to last week's show, you may have heard that we actually called the Recording Industry of America and reached the mailbox of the president, and we asked them a question concerning whether it was okay for us to download music that we had already paid for.
[15:54.850 --> 15:56.110]  Or implied it, anyway.
[15:56.690 --> 16:07.550]  But the question I had was, if you've already bought the music on vinyl and you have not bought it on CD, does that mean that it's okay for you to download it and have a digital format?
[16:08.210 --> 16:12.630]  And, well, this is what we have gotten from the Recording Industry of America.
[16:12.990 --> 16:15.510]  We gave them our email address, and this is the reply that we got.
[16:19.200 --> 16:19.980]  Yes, that's right.
[16:20.240 --> 16:20.980]  Absolutely nothing.
[16:21.240 --> 16:23.100]  It's a silence, no reply at all.
[16:23.320 --> 16:26.080]  I was just going to say, did you see something that I didn't?
[16:26.160 --> 16:26.440]  No, no.
[16:26.440 --> 16:27.280]  I'm on the same list.
[16:27.440 --> 16:29.360]  We got... and, you know, we know the mail is going through, too.
[16:29.520 --> 16:31.440]  We asked them to... it was a simple question, you know?
[16:31.740 --> 16:34.460]  And why... if they're adamant against it, they should say no.
[16:34.560 --> 16:37.520]  And if they're... if they're... if they think it's okay, well, then, you know, they should say yes.
[16:37.880 --> 16:38.640]  Simple as that.
[16:38.640 --> 16:40.120]  And, um, they didn't.
[16:41.180 --> 16:41.920]  They didn't say anything.
[16:42.040 --> 16:42.800]  So how do you interpret that?
[16:43.920 --> 16:44.240]  Hmm.
[16:45.800 --> 16:46.320]  Not good.
[16:46.480 --> 16:47.540]  No, I don't know how to interpret that.
[16:47.600 --> 16:47.960]  I really don't.
[16:48.460 --> 16:50.520]  Uh, so, uh, you might want to ask them that question, too.
[16:50.560 --> 16:54.720]  I think it's a very good question, because, um, why should you have to buy the same thing twice?
[16:55.080 --> 16:55.520]  You know?
[16:56.100 --> 16:57.740]  It's... it's... it's completely...
[16:58.740 --> 16:59.560]  It's completely wrong.
[16:59.800 --> 17:00.920]  They changed the technology.
[17:01.000 --> 17:03.480]  What, they're going to make new CDs that don't work in our current CD players?
[17:03.960 --> 17:05.860]  And, uh, you know, you're going to have to buy it a third time.
[17:06.420 --> 17:07.080]  This is great.
[17:07.220 --> 17:08.620]  You know, they keep making money off the same thing.
[17:08.620 --> 17:10.860]  But, uh, you're not really getting anything new.
[17:11.100 --> 17:13.360]  Well, what would justify, then, having purchased the music?
[17:13.520 --> 17:15.100]  Owning the album or having the receipt?
[17:15.420 --> 17:16.740]  Because I can go to a garage sale.
[17:16.740 --> 17:18.020]  I can buy a ton of music.
[17:18.200 --> 17:18.960]  A ton of vinyl.
[17:19.100 --> 17:20.940]  I think most people want to have the music.
[17:21.100 --> 17:24.040]  They want to have it in some form that they can listen to.
[17:24.200 --> 17:27.920]  And, uh, not some form that's going to be decreed obsolete in a couple of years.
[17:28.340 --> 17:30.120]  You know, that's... that's not the understanding.
[17:30.280 --> 17:33.020]  And when... when you, you know, get that in the first place.
[17:33.960 --> 17:37.800]  And, once again, their phone number would be 1-800-BAD-BEAT.
[17:37.800 --> 17:38.360]  Bad-BEAT.
[17:38.440 --> 17:38.800]  Thank you, Jim.
[17:38.940 --> 17:40.520]  Yes, I totally forgot what the number was about.
[17:41.060 --> 17:41.880]  It's a good number.
[17:41.960 --> 17:45.680]  Now, um, Mike, you, you, uh, you noticed something that NSI is up to this week.
[17:45.800 --> 17:46.860]  What, uh, what exactly are they doing?
[17:46.880 --> 17:47.640]  This is VeriSign.
[17:47.960 --> 17:51.220]  Um, VeriSign is, uh, I don't know.
[17:51.480 --> 17:52.800]  I don't... what... what is VeriSign?
[17:52.820 --> 17:53.640]  Network Solutions, Inc.
[17:53.720 --> 17:54.760]  or... are they the same?
[17:54.760 --> 17:55.800]  One owns the other.
[17:56.100 --> 17:56.380]  Okay.
[17:56.660 --> 17:56.900]  All right.
[17:57.140 --> 18:02.400]  Uh, VeriSign, uh, manages the .com and .net registries.
[18:02.420 --> 18:16.820]  So, if you, uh, are on the internet and you type in, you know, 2600.com, uh, at some point, the... a VeriSign server is involved in determining who knows, you know, where 2600.com is.
[18:17.640 --> 18:30.240]  Well, previously, if you typed in some gobbledygook.com that no one had registered before, you would get an error message, uh, from, from your web browser or whatever saying, you know, I can't figure out what domain you want.
[18:30.360 --> 18:30.760]  Try again.
[18:31.440 --> 18:42.500]  Now, if you type in a .com or .net address that does not exist, you will get a page from VeriSign with advertisements on it, uh, urging you to buy this.
[18:42.820 --> 18:44.700]  And that, that counts as a hit, doesn't it?
[18:44.840 --> 18:45.720]  It counts as a hit?
[18:45.860 --> 18:46.640]  For their advertising.
[18:46.820 --> 18:57.140]  For their advertising, um, it, you know, it takes away all the legitimate, uh, you know, it, it, it, it basically breaks part of the internet.
[18:57.860 --> 18:58.740]  Uh, we were also...
[18:58.740 --> 18:59.340]  I'm sorry, go ahead.
[18:59.460 --> 19:08.680]  We were also talking, uh, a couple weeks ago about this guy who was allegedly, you know, redirecting people who mistyped domains and got charged with something.
[19:08.680 --> 19:13.180]  Now VeriSign is redirecting the whole internet, and I bet they won't get charged with anything.
[19:13.360 --> 19:14.580]  And I still have a problem with that, by the way.
[19:14.580 --> 19:27.060]  We had a, we had a good, like, three-hour discussion after the show about this, and we're still very impassionate about it, but, uh, I don't think the guy should be charged with luring minors at his sexual places just because he, he picked all these popular sites and happened to go to a porn site,
[19:27.200 --> 19:27.300]  you know?
[19:27.480 --> 19:27.840]  Regardless?
[19:28.080 --> 19:28.560]  The intent.
[19:28.720 --> 19:29.460]  You gotta look at the intent.
[19:29.660 --> 19:33.460]  Regardless of whether or not he should, if he should, then VeriSign should.
[19:33.560 --> 19:34.160]  Yeah, I agree.
[19:34.320 --> 19:36.220]  But, of course, they're not sending people to pornography, are they?
[19:36.280 --> 19:37.860]  They're sending people to an advertisement, which...
[19:37.860 --> 19:38.040]  Sure.
[19:38.320 --> 19:40.020]  ...to many children can be just as, uh, jarring.
[19:40.380 --> 19:41.620]  But that's what he was doing, too.
[19:41.920 --> 19:42.700]  Yeah, well...
[19:42.700 --> 19:44.860]  He was basically trying to, to just raise his hits.
[19:45.040 --> 19:46.120]  I didn't see the advertising.
[19:46.400 --> 19:46.880]  I'm sure it was.
[19:47.140 --> 19:52.800]  Yeah, you know, who's to say what we consider graphic these days, you know, that's a very low threshold.
[19:53.100 --> 20:08.180]  But I, um, I, I experimented with this myself, and as you can see, uh, when I typed in, Verizon really sucks at a manual on September 17th, 2003.com, to make sure nobody had that address, I went to VeriSign and said, we didn't find that, and there is no website at this address,
[20:08.300 --> 20:14.060]  and then, uh, I, I have an option to search the web, and some popular categories, and then a nice big copyright for VeriSign at the bottom.
[20:14.220 --> 20:17.300]  Let's see if there's anything else in there that, uh, that might be, uh, of interest.
[20:17.420 --> 20:22.300]  But, yeah, so if you type something in that does not exist, it won't say it doesn't exist anymore.
[20:22.300 --> 20:23.280]  It'll go to VeriSign.
[20:23.640 --> 20:28.020]  Um, I did try it, though, on, uh, Explorer, and I wound up going to the MSN search page.
[20:28.400 --> 20:30.140]  Uh, that happens sometimes, too, I guess, right?
[20:30.280 --> 20:31.060]  That's a little strange.
[20:31.200 --> 20:32.140]  Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
[20:32.240 --> 20:38.280]  Maybe we don't have connectivity, because I have a DSL connection that's up 50% of the time, and, well, never mind.
[20:38.480 --> 20:41.380]  So, did you go to any of the popular categories, like home and garden?
[20:41.520 --> 20:43.880]  No, I just printed the page out and was, was done with it.
[20:44.300 --> 20:48.320]  Um, I also have a copy of the, uh, ad from last week's, uh, Wall Street Journal.
[20:48.500 --> 20:49.940]  Goodbye, hackers, hello, customers.
[20:50.580 --> 20:54.800]  Uh, comes from, um, network associates, or, actually, I'm sorry, computer associates.
[20:55.040 --> 20:57.900]  Uh, minimize your risk, maximize your business's potential.
[20:58.120 --> 21:02.860]  E-trust security management software doesn't just secure your business, it enables your business to do more, et cetera, et cetera.
[21:03.260 --> 21:07.800]  But, uh, it's just, uh, pretty funny that, uh, that was a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal last week.
[21:07.900 --> 21:08.540]  Goodbye, hackers.
[21:09.100 --> 21:09.920]  Hello, customers.
[21:11.140 --> 21:12.800]  Um, okay, anything else?
[21:12.880 --> 21:14.340]  Any other, uh, bits of news?
[21:15.700 --> 21:16.100]  Nothing?
[21:16.260 --> 21:18.640]  The, uh, the AOL Time Warner thing.
[21:19.120 --> 21:20.580]  Uh, what AOL Time Warner thing?
[21:20.580 --> 21:27.500]  Uh, basically, uh, tomorrow, AOL Time Warner's dropping the AOL from their name, and that's pretty much the whole story.
[21:28.060 --> 21:29.540]  You'd better be right about this, Leo.
[21:29.760 --> 21:30.980]  C-Net reported this, so...
[21:30.980 --> 21:31.360]  All right.
[21:31.620 --> 21:33.540]  Well, C-Net reported it, and it's gotta be true, right?
[21:33.620 --> 21:34.740]  They can't possibly be anywhere there.
[21:35.180 --> 21:36.520]  The other news, uh...
[21:36.520 --> 21:37.100]  Wait, hang on a second.
[21:37.160 --> 21:39.320]  I just want to know what the, uh, ramifications of this are.
[21:39.420 --> 21:43.060]  So that means that when I watch CNN, it's not going to say an AOL Time Warner company anymore?
[21:43.140 --> 21:44.540]  It's going to say a Time Warner company?
[21:44.720 --> 21:44.820]  Is that...
[21:44.820 --> 21:45.840]  Yeah, that's what they're saying.
[21:46.000 --> 21:47.040]  I'm going to turn it on, all right?
[21:47.200 --> 21:47.980]  And, uh...
[21:47.980 --> 21:48.340]  Tomorrow.
[21:48.580 --> 21:49.420]  And Time Warner cable.
[21:49.540 --> 21:51.060]  Well, Time Warner cable was always Time Warner cable.
[21:51.060 --> 21:52.420]  It's not AOL Time Warner cable.
[21:52.740 --> 21:53.540]  What about AOL?
[21:53.660 --> 21:54.160]  What are they going to be called?
[21:54.180 --> 21:56.400]  Well, they always call themselves AOL kind of separately.
[21:56.640 --> 21:57.060]  Oh, okay.
[21:57.120 --> 21:57.480]  That's clever.
[21:57.640 --> 21:57.880]  All right.
[21:58.180 --> 22:00.540]  What I don't understand is they have AOL in Europe.
[22:01.860 --> 22:07.180]  Now, I might be a little thick here, but wouldn't it make more sense to call it, say, EOL or something like that?
[22:07.180 --> 22:08.500]  You know, not AOL?
[22:09.020 --> 22:10.220]  They have it all over the world.
[22:10.360 --> 22:13.020]  But it's not America online if it's not in America.
[22:13.080 --> 22:16.140]  They even have it in China and other countries in Asia.
[22:16.200 --> 22:16.760]  China online.
[22:16.760 --> 22:18.920]  You know, you can experiment with some new names here.
[22:19.040 --> 22:19.820]  It's not very hard.
[22:20.180 --> 22:20.700]  Go ahead, Mike.
[22:20.700 --> 22:29.940]  The other big news story is that the Senate or the House, one of them, has voted to overturn the media ownership regulations at the FCC.
[22:31.360 --> 22:32.600]  Actually, it was the Senate.
[22:32.800 --> 22:33.320]  It was the Senate.
[22:34.040 --> 22:39.400]  And, you know, that's great that they did this, but I don't think they're doing nearly enough.
[22:39.500 --> 22:44.920]  I mean, yeah, okay, this means that one company can't own 45%, but they can't own 35%.
[22:44.920 --> 22:46.720]  So, you know, okay, great.
[22:46.820 --> 22:47.200]  They listened.
[22:47.200 --> 22:50.880]  It's proof that they listen when people really get pissed off, which is what happened this time.
[22:51.100 --> 22:55.320]  But nobody did anything the last time it happened, back in, what was it, 96?
[22:56.140 --> 23:00.600]  And we need to go back beyond that so that there's some chance of fairness.
[23:00.760 --> 23:04.440]  I mean, how many people out there are listening right now in cities that are dominated by Clear Channel?
[23:04.820 --> 23:12.420]  I get mail every day from someone saying their favorite radio station was taken over by Clear Channel, and now they don't play the same things anymore, or, you know, they fired everybody, or...
[23:12.420 --> 23:23.360]  It's just, you know, having the same company own everything kind of puts a crimp on people's Of course, the Senate voted for this, but apparently the House won't, and President Bush will veto it anyway.
[23:23.600 --> 23:24.760]  But, you know, it's a nice gesture.
[23:24.860 --> 23:25.860]  Bush is going to veto this.
[23:25.960 --> 23:27.140]  That's what the predictions are.
[23:27.240 --> 23:27.920]  How about that?
[23:28.020 --> 23:28.160]  Yeah.
[23:28.160 --> 23:31.500]  I wonder if that's going to, uh, maybe affect the popularity rating a little bit.
[23:31.800 --> 23:32.600]  It would be nice.
[23:33.300 --> 23:34.700]  Uh, okay, we have this about Yahoo.
[23:34.840 --> 23:42.440]  The Swedish branch of Yahoo has forwarded their customers to a website which kidnaps modems and gives the customers, uh, enormous bills for web surfing.
[23:42.660 --> 23:43.140]  That's right.
[23:43.580 --> 23:54.120]  Uh, the ad, which is located on Yahoo's homepage, offers an elaborate IQ test, and the ad neglects to inform the user who clicks on the ad, uh, that they're... I think this is a translation because it's really awkwardly written.
[23:54.120 --> 24:03.520]  Uh, it's connected to a different telephone number which, uh, costs 34 kroners... I know what they call it kroners... uh, per minute, and the test takes up to 40 minutes to complete.
[24:03.600 --> 24:05.860]  The result is it is extremely expensive to take the test.
[24:05.980 --> 24:11.240]  The method used is common in the porn industry, and it has, for several years, made big bucks from kidnapping users' modems.
[24:11.460 --> 24:15.440]  Uh, in practice, what happens is that the PC downloads a program which takes control of the modem.
[24:15.600 --> 24:19.960]  The program calls another number than what it usually uses when the price per minute is considerably higher.
[24:20.340 --> 24:24.100]  Uh, according to, uh, Sweden's Yahoo department, they have stopped this.
[24:24.120 --> 24:27.020]  They have stopped this right away, and, uh, that will never happen again.
[24:27.300 --> 24:28.720]  Uh, Sweden doesn't use the Euros, huh?
[24:29.340 --> 24:30.880]  Yeah, well, they had a big election on Sunday.
[24:31.340 --> 24:44.860]  Um, despite the, uh, the, the murder of their popular foreign minister who was, uh, in favor of this, um, the people... even though there was a big sympathy, uh, vote that was a forecast, the people still stuck to, uh, what they believed in, which I think is pretty admirable,
[24:45.060 --> 24:46.540]  and they voted not to join the Euro.
[24:46.540 --> 24:49.360]  Uh, so, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's really something.
[24:49.480 --> 24:59.040]  And to think that, that society, not to get off too, too, too far of the track here, but that kind of society, major politicians and, and leaders of government can walk around without bodyguards.
[24:59.180 --> 25:04.640]  Obviously, they can't really and expect to be safe, but, uh, that's the culture, and people are very upset that that might be coming to an end.
[25:04.700 --> 25:07.420]  Remember, they, they also lost their prime minister about 15 years ago.
[25:07.460 --> 25:08.380]  Oh, probably, yeah.
[25:08.560 --> 25:08.740]  Yeah.
[25:16.540 --> 25:17.240]  No, I really have.
[25:17.340 --> 25:19.800]  It's just, it's just annoying, and I'm hoping someone out there might have an answer for me.
[25:19.880 --> 25:26.420]  Ever since I got back into this country, uh, about a week or so ago, um, my GSM phone has not recognized my phone company.
[25:26.660 --> 25:32.380]  Now, apparently, we mentioned this a few weeks ago, that, that all T, uh, T-Mobile phones started to say T-Mobile, apparently.
[25:32.660 --> 25:35.900]  Instead of saying VoiceStream, they, they, they switched over and started saying T-Mobile.
[25:36.020 --> 25:38.900]  Well, my phone was overseas when this happened, so it missed that little signal.
[25:39.160 --> 25:45.420]  And now, when it came back into this country, it, um, it doesn't recognize the company anymore, so it assumes it's roaming.
[25:45.420 --> 25:48.280]  So my phone just says roaming now, and, uh, I can't get it to stop.
[25:48.360 --> 25:49.000]  I called...
[25:49.000 --> 25:49.360]  Yes.
[25:49.480 --> 25:50.300]  Have you pulled the battery?
[25:50.500 --> 25:51.160]  I pulled the battery.
[25:51.280 --> 25:52.100]  I pulled the SIM card.
[25:52.260 --> 25:54.300]  I, I, I, I tossed it up in the air.
[25:54.380 --> 25:55.100]  I did all kinds of things.
[25:55.880 --> 25:56.740]  Nothing, nothing works.
[25:56.860 --> 25:59.420]  I've even called, I've called Motorola, because it's a Motorola phone.
[25:59.480 --> 26:03.240]  I've called T-Mobile, and nobody has a clue as to what I'm supposed to do.
[26:03.480 --> 26:06.180]  Uh, well, T-Mobile said I should get a new phone, and they had one I could buy.
[26:06.780 --> 26:11.680]  Um, I'd like to know, does anybody here, does anybody here have a GSM phone?
[26:13.020 --> 26:14.920]  Oh, my goodness, no one has a GSM phone.
[26:14.920 --> 26:15.740]  Um, what, what, Jeff?
[26:15.740 --> 26:20.880]  Yeah, I do have a, a, a United States GSM phone that works strictly on that big credit card.
[26:21.000 --> 26:21.520]  I showed it to you.
[26:21.640 --> 26:22.780]  Yeah, but you don't have a little SIM card.
[26:22.900 --> 26:23.160]  You see, no...
[26:23.160 --> 26:24.140]  It has the big SIM card.
[26:24.140 --> 26:24.760]  This is the problem.
[26:25.040 --> 26:32.600]  In, in Europe, anybody, you could walk up to an old lady on the street, she'd have a GSM phone, you could swap SIM cards, and I could see what happens when I put a different SIM card in my...
[26:32.600 --> 26:35.440]  See, I don't know if it's a SIM card that needs updating or the phone that needs updating.
[26:35.560 --> 26:36.020]  I don't know.
[26:36.420 --> 26:38.300]  Until I find somebody I can swap SIMs with.
[26:39.200 --> 26:41.000]  Which, uh, sounds obscene, but it isn't.
[26:41.380 --> 26:44.260]  Um, that's, uh, that's what you can do in Europe very easily.
[26:44.260 --> 26:45.720]  You're not touching my SIM.
[26:46.660 --> 26:49.600]  I did it on a train, you know, with, with, this guy was sitting...
[26:49.600 --> 26:50.780]  Stop laughing, Jim.
[26:50.880 --> 26:52.700]  On a train near Amsterdam, okay?
[26:52.960 --> 26:58.320]  This guy needed, his battery ran out, he needed to make a phone call, he asked if he could swap SIMs, and I said, sure, no problem.
[26:58.400 --> 26:59.580]  He used my phone with his SIM.
[26:59.880 --> 27:00.640]  In Amsterdam?
[27:01.620 --> 27:03.200]  You're swapping SIMs in Amsterdam?
[27:03.520 --> 27:04.180]  Well, it was on a train.
[27:04.480 --> 27:05.560]  It was on a train.
[27:05.720 --> 27:06.500]  You know...
[27:06.500 --> 27:07.760]  But the only, okay, there is a side effect.
[27:07.880 --> 27:09.860]  There is a side effect that people don't realize, all right?
[27:09.960 --> 27:17.340]  And that is that, uh, apparently this happens if you, if you let someone else's SIM go into your phone, and then you put your SIM back...
[27:17.340 --> 27:18.580]  Are you going to be okay, Jeff?
[27:18.580 --> 27:19.000]  Are you going to be okay, Jeff?
[27:19.000 --> 27:19.620]  Side effects.
[27:19.700 --> 27:25.620]  No, the biggest problem, the biggest problem is that apparently your last ten, uh, numbers that you dialed get wiped out.
[27:25.980 --> 27:31.060]  So you're, you're, what you called, I think it's some kind of security thing, or maybe it's a bug, I'm not sure.
[27:31.200 --> 27:40.600]  So, maybe if people out there who do have more than one GSM phone could experiment and tell me if they get the same thing happening, that's a possible bad thing to do if you were going to have someone else's SIM in your phone.
[27:40.600 --> 27:45.340]  You might lose numbers, not numbers in the phone book, but, uh, numbers of the last ones called.
[27:45.480 --> 27:46.620]  Well, let's go back to your problem.
[27:46.740 --> 27:49.300]  So, this roaming, is it going to do anything more to you?
[27:49.380 --> 27:50.820]  Is it going to cost you more money?
[27:50.820 --> 27:54.240]  I don't see how it can, because it's, this isn't a phone company thing, this is a phone thing.
[27:54.300 --> 28:02.040]  My phone is confused, my phone doesn't recognize the name T-Mobile, it's looking for VoiceStream, and, uh, it just assumes, since it's getting a different phone company, that it's roaming.
[28:02.220 --> 28:03.400]  I think that's all that's going to happen.
[28:03.420 --> 28:05.140]  You're still able to make and receive calls?
[28:05.360 --> 28:07.480]  Yeah, but, you know, I've noticed the signal isn't as good.
[28:07.480 --> 28:10.800]  It tends to go out quicker, and I'm wondering if that might be because it thinks it's roaming.
[28:10.960 --> 28:11.400]  I'm not sure.
[28:11.560 --> 28:14.600]  It might not, you know, be as eager to latch onto this network.
[28:14.860 --> 28:25.500]  See, I don't know about, for, for GSM phones, but for the phone company I use, they have a number that you call, and it updates, you know, the, the phone on what, what areas are roaming, or, like, what...
[28:25.500 --> 28:27.880]  Yeah, you should, it should work on the firmware that way.
[28:28.040 --> 28:28.880]  Yeah, well, that's what I need.
[28:28.920 --> 28:32.940]  I need a firmware upgrade, and, uh, no one can figure out a way to send me for that.
[28:33.380 --> 28:36.260]  So, if anybody has any suggestions, please, OTH at 2600.com.
[28:36.260 --> 28:37.820]  Okay, that's enough about that.
[28:38.040 --> 28:48.620]  Uh, we have on the phone with us, uh, Adrian Lamos, who, uh, we were talking about last week as being the, um, um, the hacker who was, uh, charged with, uh, breaking into the New York Times.
[28:49.620 --> 28:54.020]  In fact, I'll, I'll read the, the story as it came out on Monday from the Associated Press.
[28:54.360 --> 29:06.880]  Uh, a hacker charged with breaking into the New York Times computer system illegally accessing more than $300,000 in information services was released on $250,000 bail Friday and told to avoid computers.
[29:07.700 --> 29:08.180]  Yeah.
[29:08.460 --> 29:14.080]  Uh, a federal judge, uh, ordered Adrian to remain at his parents' home in California until his case is resolved.
[29:14.300 --> 29:18.420]  Uh, he's permitted to use a computer only to search for a job or education opportunities.
[29:18.800 --> 29:31.140]  Uh, he appeared in federal court, uh, last Thursday following his California arrest, um, which claimed that he altered the Times' databases between February and April 2002, causing the New York Times company damages exceeding $25,000.
[29:31.140 --> 29:40.800]  We read some, uh, interesting, uh, um, facts about the case, uh, last week, especially, uh, that, uh, this had been widely publicized before these charges were ever brought.
[29:40.860 --> 29:47.800]  In fact, uh, um, when, uh, when he allegedly did this, uh, he, he talked to reporters very openly.
[29:48.520 --> 29:54.440]  And, um, the New York Times, who you think would respect something about, you know, talking to reporters openly, decided to charge him instead.
[29:54.480 --> 29:56.460]  I think that's pretty, uh, pretty interesting.
[29:56.460 --> 30:02.400]  Uh, anyway, he is, uh, charged with intentionally accessing a protected computer without authorization.
[30:02.860 --> 30:03.720]  It's pretty funny.
[30:03.860 --> 30:05.140]  Obviously, it wasn't, uh, that protected.
[30:05.380 --> 30:06.120]  But never mind.
[30:06.240 --> 30:09.920]  Uh, using unauthorized access devices with intent to defraud.
[30:10.060 --> 30:17.060]  Uh, an FBI affidavit accused him of adding his name, cell phone number, and email address to the Times op-ed contributor list.
[30:17.620 --> 30:20.220]  Not exactly the act of somebody who's trying to, uh, trying to hide.
[30:20.220 --> 30:26.320]  And, uh, it's administrative database listing his area of expertise as computer hacking, national security, communications, intelligence.
[30:26.840 --> 30:28.980]  Uh, and then, this is interesting, too.
[30:29.100 --> 30:37.120]  They, they went on, uh, to say that, uh, he used the Times' LexisNexis account to obtain more than $300,000 worth of electronic information services.
[30:37.480 --> 30:43.660]  Uh, among other things, uh, he, uh, is alleged to have used it to search for mentions of his own name and exploits, according to the affidavit.
[30:43.720 --> 30:49.820]  Kind of reminds me of the Kevin Mitnick thing where he was searching for his own name in New York Times reporter John Markov's mailbox, and look what happened there.
[30:49.820 --> 30:52.520]  Mess with the New York Times, and this is the kind of thing that happens to you.
[30:52.760 --> 30:53.560]  It's unbelievable.
[30:54.140 --> 31:01.080]  Um, we had, uh, an interesting letter from somebody who wrote in with some, some facts about this, too, or some opinions, I guess.
[31:01.300 --> 31:09.680]  Uh, I'd like to make something aware to you regarding the allegation brought against Adrian Limo, uh, specifically the LexisNexis, supposed $300,000 he apparently spent.
[31:10.280 --> 31:16.140]  Um, the way I'm reading it, the cost is $475 a week if you subscribe to all of their products.
[31:16.820 --> 31:19.480]  That's according to the official complaint filed by the FBI.
[31:20.360 --> 31:26.180]  Um, and he allegedly accessed the LexisNexis database from February 20th through March 20th of 2002.
[31:26.820 --> 31:30.860]  That's four weeks, and according to my math, that's $1,900, not $300,000.
[31:31.500 --> 31:37.560]  Uh, perhaps some of the libraries are not available under the pay-by-week plan, so it would then cost from $1 to $12 per query.
[31:37.560 --> 31:40.380]  Uh, let's use a worst-case scenario and say $12.
[31:40.740 --> 31:45.420]  Adrian would have had to do a minimum of 25,000 lookups to rack up a $300,000 bill.
[31:45.760 --> 31:52.220]  Uh, considering the FBI agent reviewed the log files, in quotes, of all the LexisNexis searches, I don't think there were thousands of searches.
[31:52.760 --> 31:59.020]  Uh, but since neither Adrian or the New York Times would have otherwise paid to do those searches, the actual amount lost is zero.
[31:59.460 --> 32:06.540]  I'm sure LexisNexis waived the bill for those accounts, unless they're trying to trump up the damages, specifically to make a case against him, and that is my fear.
[32:06.540 --> 32:11.360]  I'm afraid the New York Times asked LexisNexis to send them a $300,000 bill for those accounts.
[32:11.520 --> 32:14.420]  What a perfect way to make it look like Adrian really caused damage.
[32:15.440 --> 32:24.940]  Well, Adrian joins us now from his parents' home in California, where he has been told to stay and not go anywhere or use computers unless he's trying to find a job or get educational opportunities.
[32:25.200 --> 32:26.360]  Adrian, how are you holding out?
[32:27.380 --> 32:28.600]  As well as can be expected.
[32:28.960 --> 32:35.360]  It's been a stressful time for everybody involved, but it's also been positive in some ways.
[32:35.760 --> 32:35.920]  Mm-hmm.
[32:35.980 --> 32:48.560]  I know, I understand since, uh, and this is something I ask our listeners to understand as well, since you are facing charges, uh, that, uh, there's probably a lot of things you're not able to talk about, uh, specific things, things that we'd like to ask you,
[32:48.680 --> 32:48.880]  certainly.
[32:49.480 --> 32:56.620]  Uh, so we'll, uh, we'll have to kind of tiptoe around those issues and, and, and talk in generalities as much as possible.
[32:57.040 --> 32:59.660]  Uh, tell us something about your history in the hacker world.
[32:59.900 --> 33:02.180]  How, uh, how long have you been involved?
[33:02.280 --> 33:04.560]  What kinds of, uh, of, of people have you talked to?
[33:04.660 --> 33:06.160]  What kinds of things have you learned, et cetera?
[33:07.080 --> 33:19.600]  I'd say, really, that I've always been involved, and I don't really characterize myself as a hacker, per se, in that that has connotations that tend to relate to computers, and I don't consider myself a computer-specific person.
[33:19.680 --> 33:31.620]  Some of the things that I do touch on computers, but, really, I think that it's about how I look at things and about how I approach things, and that scales beyond computers to really any complex system, which would include the world that we live in.
[33:32.240 --> 33:37.260]  So, it's not something that I took up in my teens so much as something that was really sort of innate to me.
[33:37.700 --> 33:48.880]  You've probably become very aware, though, over the years as the, the media definition of what a hacker is, and, um, and, and various inaccuracies, unfairnesses, that kind of thing that, uh, that have come about as a result of that, right?
[33:49.720 --> 33:56.580]  Yes, and I don't think that I have standing to tell anybody else what the definition of hacker is, or really that they should think that I am a hacker.
[33:56.920 --> 34:01.440]  I've never tried to sell what I do or allegedly do as hacking.
[34:01.840 --> 34:09.420]  I, it's, for me, really just about making the most of what's presented to me and about the places that I've found myself in, and being in the right place at the right time.
[34:09.580 --> 34:13.400]  Can you give us an example of that that, uh, doesn't relate to this case?
[34:14.600 --> 34:18.740]  Sure, and I think that it scales to a lot of the things that I do.
[34:19.080 --> 34:22.480]  Um, I was in Philadelphia not too terribly long ago.
[34:22.720 --> 34:26.180]  I was with a group of friends, and we were exploring an abandoned factory.
[34:26.540 --> 34:31.780]  It was a pretty large factory complex, um, easy to get lost in, and lo and behold, we did get lost.
[34:32.340 --> 34:40.460]  We stumbled out on the far side of the complex without a clear idea of how to get back to where we had started, and this was really very much urban wasteland.
[34:40.820 --> 34:46.640]  Um, lots of big hulking, decaying machines, just various things littering the landscape, and no people to speak of.
[34:47.340 --> 34:54.820]  We saw a white car in Victoria parked up against an intersection that seemed to be taking an interest in us, but instead of approaching us, it drove away.
[34:55.440 --> 35:01.580]  We operated under the assumption that it was probably a cough, and they were probably going back to get a uniformed, uh, backup, just because that's what they tend to do.
[35:02.260 --> 35:08.160]  And for the sake of, uh, a non sequitur, we decided to walk towards them instead of away from them.
[35:08.780 --> 35:14.720]  And when we got to the intersections that they had been at, we heard what sounded at the time like a loud quacking noise.
[35:15.500 --> 35:28.700]  And I was curious about what it was, and I walked around until I eventually ran it down, and it was coming from a storm drain, and it was not in fact quacking, but turned out to be a very hoarse kitten that was at the bottom of a storm drain with no visible way to get out.
[35:28.780 --> 35:29.280]  My goodness.
[35:29.980 --> 35:41.180]  And, uh, I was concerned, and I walked around trying to find some way to get it out, and nothing immediately presented itself, but a actual real police cruiser did turn up, and it spotlighted us.
[35:41.660 --> 35:48.720]  And, you know, I figure if you're going to be, you're being spotlighted, odds are they're about to stop you, and there's really only one thing that you can do then, and that's stop them first.
[35:48.860 --> 35:55.780]  So I flagged them down and, uh, told them, you know, middle of nowhere, kitten, kitten unhappy, help us, that sort of thing.
[35:55.880 --> 35:57.160]  And they didn't believe there was a kitten.
[35:57.320 --> 35:58.440]  Show us this kitten, they said.
[35:58.980 --> 36:01.700]  And we showed them the kitten, and they sure were surprised.
[36:02.060 --> 36:10.820]  And fast forward to two hours later, we have three other cruisers in one van, and the van finally gets there, and it has sort of a noose on a stick with which to get the kitten out.
[36:11.440 --> 36:18.820]  And they pulled the kitten out, we put it in a discarded juice pitcher, and we eventually ended up naming him Alibi, although my friend insists on calling him Drano.
[36:19.640 --> 36:23.300]  And to me, that's really an example of how many of these things come about for me.
[36:23.300 --> 36:32.800]  If I had really just walked by any of these things, if I had chosen to not explore them, if I chose them to just take the easy way and keep going, odds are we never would have found it.
[36:32.960 --> 36:33.980]  We would have had a boring evening.
[36:34.180 --> 36:38.260]  At worst, you might have ended up in police custody, and the kitten probably would have died down there in that drain.
[36:39.360 --> 36:46.920]  So, basically, what you're saying is that whenever an opportunity to explore something presents itself, you take it and you get led to all kinds of other things.
[36:47.620 --> 36:59.340]  That's pretty much the case, and I really think that I find myself places for a reason, that these things happen for a reason, and that none of these ventures that I find myself in are ever wasted, and that really, nothing that anybody does is ever really wasted.
[37:00.360 --> 37:04.780]  Well, it sounds like good karma all around, but, of course, there are those people that don't get it.
[37:05.140 --> 37:14.400]  There are those people that think that what you're doing is something akin to terrorism, and that you don't have any business being in some place that you don't have specific permission to be in.
[37:14.400 --> 37:15.720]  How do you respond to people like that?
[37:16.280 --> 37:23.020]  Well, yes, I was trespassing in that abandoned factory, and, you know, I could have been brought up on trespassing charges if somebody had desired to do so.
[37:23.820 --> 37:32.080]  And actions do have consequences in that respect, but I don't think that if there is a point to life that that point is to avoid all possible danger.
[37:32.300 --> 37:42.380]  I think that the things that we find ourselves around are here for a reason, and to me it would sort of be intellectual fiduciary misconduct to not follow up on these sorts of opportunities.
[37:43.080 --> 37:48.580]  And I know that there are some people that will feel that it's wrong, and it's a risk that I'm willing to take.
[37:49.380 --> 37:55.200]  Had I been brought up on trespassing charges in that factory that night, I think that it would have been worth it.
[37:55.480 --> 38:05.140]  I've seen some things that I think speak to whatever innate sense of discovery that our ancestors must have had when they sighted new land that nobody had been to before.
[38:05.700 --> 38:08.040]  And I'd really hate to live my life without that.
[38:09.680 --> 38:13.680]  Well, minus all the bad things I brought with them, but yes, I see the point you're making.
[38:14.100 --> 38:20.480]  Um, now, um, how long have you been, um, involved in this kind of a thing for your entire life?
[38:21.140 --> 38:25.080]  I, it's not something that I really picked up one day and took on as a hobby.
[38:25.340 --> 38:33.720]  It's, for me, what I do in this respect is less about being a part-time interest and less about being some sort of hobby and closer to being about religion for me.
[38:34.080 --> 38:46.740]  I believe very strongly that I found myself in the right place at the right time, and that even if I don't necessarily understand why things have happened to me, that they will work out for the best somehow, even if I don't ever see necessarily how.
[38:47.240 --> 38:50.540]  And I, I have faith that these things aren't wasted.
[38:50.740 --> 38:54.200]  So do you, do you carry that over to your current situation as well?
[38:55.060 --> 38:55.720]  I do.
[38:56.040 --> 39:09.740]  Um, I believe that despite the hardship that it's brought onto me and my family, that ultimately in some way it will prove to be positive and that it will help really in its own way contribute to the world at large.
[39:11.540 --> 39:16.300]  What, what kind of response have you, uh, gotten so far, uh, in general from, from people?
[39:17.620 --> 39:20.760]  So far, the response has been overwhelmingly positive.
[39:21.300 --> 39:26.060]  Um, I don't really get to check my email very much, although I am now permitted to use email.
[39:26.300 --> 39:28.840]  I don't really have occasion to do it very often.
[39:28.840 --> 39:32.640]  So my mailbox frequently fills up and things get lost and it's very sad for everyone.
[39:32.920 --> 39:38.480]  But to date, I haven't ever gotten a single negative email about what I do or allegedly do.
[39:39.020 --> 39:44.720]  Um, I know that there are people that disagree with it, but oddly enough, not a single one has ever taken a moment to email me.
[39:44.860 --> 39:47.440]  And I'm sure that after the show, one of them probably will.
[39:47.500 --> 39:57.560]  I was going to say, I'm sure you're going to get, uh, quite a few after the show because I know there are people out there that, uh, well, the mentality that I always run into is that, uh, you know, uh, well, he broke the law.
[39:57.660 --> 40:09.000]  And of course, you know, I got to put an allegedly in front of that in this particular case, but you know, for somebody that, uh, um, claims to have done something, well, let's just take the, the trespassing case with the factory, uh, while you broke the law,
[40:09.180 --> 40:11.120]  you have to, you have to pay the price for breaking the law.
[40:11.300 --> 40:15.080]  I just seem to hear that all the time now for any kind of transgression whatsoever.
[40:15.280 --> 40:19.100]  And I want to ask these people, you know, have you ever, uh, say had a drink under 21?
[40:19.200 --> 40:24.640]  Maybe do you want to go to prison for that or whatever, you know, go a mile above 55, you know, in a, in a speed limit zone.
[40:24.940 --> 40:30.800]  Uh, it's, it seems like we've become obsessed with laws and we've forgotten about, uh, what is right and what is wrong.
[40:32.420 --> 40:33.500]  You just don't coincide.
[40:34.900 --> 40:51.900]  Well, I'm, I'm not a jurist and I, I don't know if I really have standing to opine on laws that I didn't get to see into the head of the writer for, but it is complicated and it's frequently hard to know what to do and what will be considered right and what people will smack you down for.
[40:52.240 --> 40:56.520]  And I, I think really all we can do right now is take it as it comes and try to make the best of it.
[40:56.820 --> 40:59.540]  We're on the phone with, uh, Adrian Lamo out in California.
[40:59.660 --> 41:02.200]  He's been in charge with hacking into the New York times.
[41:02.580 --> 41:09.560]  Uh, and of course I'm, I have to use the terminology that was used, uh, in the, in the, uh, media and the prosecution and all that kind of a thing.
[41:09.740 --> 41:19.340]  Um, uh, and basically is there, is there anything you can say about that case or, um, is it, you want to just, uh, not say anything about, I'm not sure what particular position you're in.
[41:20.700 --> 41:24.000]  Um, I really don't know a lot about the future right now.
[41:24.200 --> 41:26.080]  There's a lot of things that could go a number of ways.
[41:26.320 --> 41:26.380]  Right.
[41:26.480 --> 41:29.980]  And it, in some ways is scary.
[41:30.160 --> 41:34.100]  I don't know where it will go, but I think that faith will manage.
[41:34.300 --> 41:36.620]  I have faith that things will work themselves out somehow.
[41:37.680 --> 41:41.180]  Um, we're taking phone calls two and two two zero nine two nine hundred.
[41:41.880 --> 41:43.240]  Adrian, I've got a quick question.
[41:43.540 --> 41:46.280]  Um, what, uh, what is your typing speed?
[41:47.040 --> 41:53.060]  You know, I've never actually timed it, but I am one of those people that always gets funny looks when I'm in a computer lab somewhere.
[41:53.300 --> 41:56.120]  I, I sort of have to two typing modes.
[41:56.260 --> 42:00.740]  One of the ones is more relaxed, really, and generally unremarkable.
[42:00.880 --> 42:07.480]  And a friend of mine referred to the other one as attack typing, whereby you really fear for the keyboard and wonder if it's going to stand up to the strength.
[42:07.840 --> 42:07.980]  Okay.
[42:08.060 --> 42:14.060]  Because I was particularly distressed last week with the, the amounts, uh, that, that they were charging you with the LexisNexis account.
[42:14.380 --> 42:21.880]  Um, it, it, I couldn't imagine how someone could rack that up without getting any sleep and not having friends or, and help.
[42:22.840 --> 42:23.260]  Yeah.
[42:23.460 --> 42:24.680]  It's, uh, it's pretty amazing.
[42:24.820 --> 42:31.520]  $300,000, uh, that, uh, that, they're, they're charging you with, uh, with taking, uh, in, in, in searches and things like that.
[42:31.600 --> 42:33.740]  Of course, LexisNexis is, uh, very expensive.
[42:34.000 --> 42:40.600]  Uh, you guys over here in college, uh, Columbia, NYU, and, and Mike from Columbia, you, uh, you all had LexisNexis access, didn't you?
[42:40.740 --> 42:42.200]  They turned it off for me yesterday.
[42:42.380 --> 42:42.860]  They did?
[42:43.020 --> 42:43.200]  Yeah.
[42:43.460 --> 42:43.680]  Wow.
[42:43.780 --> 42:45.280]  They're cracking down on everybody, I guess.
[42:45.400 --> 42:47.760]  Well, yeah, I'm no longer there, so it's kind of fair.
[42:47.940 --> 42:51.060]  Did you get a discount on $300,000, or did you have to pay the full amount?
[42:51.780 --> 42:56.560]  You know, uh, I don't know exactly what they pay, but I'm sure it wasn't quite that much.
[42:56.680 --> 42:56.840]  Uh-huh.
[42:57.260 --> 42:57.860]  It's amazing.
[42:57.960 --> 43:02.600]  When, when you have a product where you can just pretty much price it yourself and say, well, yeah, a million dollars is what this cost.
[43:02.940 --> 43:07.540]  And, you know, the, the prosecutor will just write it down and say, oh, okay, this person did this, so that means a million dollars.
[43:07.900 --> 43:18.820]  You know, it, it brings back such memories of, of the Kevin Mitnick case where, uh, where the companies just simply, uh, wrote whatever the, the federal authorities asked them to write as far as how much it damaged them to have somebody look at their source code.
[43:18.980 --> 43:21.240]  Well, yeah, that was like, uh, $750,000.
[43:21.680 --> 43:22.780]  Which they give out for free.
[43:22.920 --> 43:23.920]  No, they give it out for free.
[43:24.120 --> 43:30.440]  And, um, it's, it's, um, it just goes to show you how these numbers can be literally pulled out of thin air.
[43:31.320 --> 43:32.160]  You have to wonder.
[43:32.420 --> 43:34.520]  Adrian, let me ask you, ask you one other question, and we'll take some phone calls.
[43:34.800 --> 43:45.560]  Uh, what advice do you have for people that, um, that might be starting out on something like what you described of a life of exploration, whether it be in computers or in abandoned buildings or, uh, life in general?
[43:48.020 --> 43:49.180]  Any, any advice for them?
[43:50.320 --> 43:55.120]  To have faith that curiosity isn't a crime and that there's always a purpose to exploring.
[43:55.820 --> 43:57.960]  I, that's really the best I can say.
[43:58.440 --> 43:58.720]  Uh-huh.
[43:59.080 --> 44:04.940]  And I, I imagine that this particular turn of events, um, this is as bad as it's gotten for you, right?
[44:04.940 --> 44:11.960]  I mean, uh, you haven't had any other experiences where people misunderstood what you were doing and, uh, and did something nasty in return?
[44:11.960 --> 44:17.880]  This is the first time that I have been accused of crime, uh, in this respect.
[44:18.200 --> 44:25.480]  Are you able to talk about any of the other periods, any of the other, uh, companies that, uh, are allegedly, um, touched by you in some way?
[44:28.120 --> 44:37.440]  Um, I, I really think that probably the best test case for them was Excite at Home, which was really a stellar company to interact with.
[44:37.960 --> 44:44.960]  They, uh, openly acknowledged that the process had caused them no damages, that they weren't interested in pursuing that sort of thing.
[44:44.960 --> 44:47.320]  Can you describe, can you describe what it was that happened with them?
[44:48.280 --> 44:53.480]  Um, I called up their lead network engineer at about, uh, midnight or so.
[44:53.640 --> 44:56.020]  I had some pre-existing context with them, so he knew who I was.
[44:56.180 --> 44:58.640]  And I suggested that perhaps he meet me at Kinko's.
[44:59.240 --> 45:05.340]  And, uh, he came over, uh, he got himself a burger, uh, being the magnanimous person that he is, he got me a burger.
[45:06.180 --> 45:11.840]  Um, this, I, I, I don't itemize the burger in things that companies have given me because it came out of his own pocket.
[45:12.500 --> 45:16.940]  Uh, but, um, I told him, so, um, Excite at Home, they have a network, don't they?
[45:16.960 --> 45:20.660]  And I showed him a few screenshots, printouts, that sort of thing.
[45:20.900 --> 45:23.780]  And his mood rapidly sombered.
[45:24.260 --> 45:30.520]  Um, he was immediately highly concerned, but to his credit, he didn't fly off the handle or anything.
[45:30.620 --> 45:37.780]  He was just very concerned for his network because he has, like many network administrators and rightly so, uh, very territorial approach to his network.
[45:37.940 --> 45:48.240]  And it's, in, in some ways, it feels like the violation of some sort of personal connection when you realize that this network that you've built yourself has had somebody else tooling around on it without your knowledge.
[45:48.520 --> 46:04.360]  But he called the lead security guy at the company and we all headed down to the headquarters and, uh, sat down in the boardroom where I discussed with them the process of the intrusion, how it had happened, what was compromised, how the, how it was compromised.
[46:05.180 --> 46:14.280]  And we reached a resolution that night whereby they asked me what I would do if I wanted to make the system that had originally led to most of the compromise more secure.
[46:14.780 --> 46:20.580]  And I walked, I walked myself down to it, pulled out a pocket knife and cut off the network cable and declared it secure.
[46:21.560 --> 46:23.820]  Um, or at least as secure as could reasonably be.
[46:23.900 --> 46:24.820]  They must've loved that.
[46:25.580 --> 46:33.340]  You know, they probably would have disconnected it themselves, but if they had just disconnected it, some guy would have said, Hey, the server's disconnected and plugged it back in, uh, given how many office employees are.
[46:33.960 --> 46:40.680]  So I, I, I think that that really is probably the best thing that you, you, you can do to secure a network machine under those circumstances.
[46:41.220 --> 46:42.740]  So they eventually fixed the problem.
[46:43.180 --> 46:44.500]  Yes, they fixed it very quickly.
[46:44.640 --> 46:46.340]  They had a long day of conference calls.
[46:46.620 --> 46:50.260]  It was probably a stressful time for them, but they took it very positively.
[46:50.540 --> 46:53.280]  They patched things off as much as they could.
[46:53.580 --> 46:56.040]  And ultimately it was a rewarding experience for everybody.
[46:56.440 --> 47:01.840]  Um, it was one of my first experiences with dealing with a company in that context.
[47:02.000 --> 47:07.540]  And it was really gratifying to know that even though at that time they were the largest cable rider in the U S they still had a sense of humor.
[47:07.720 --> 47:15.380]  They still had a sense of the sardonic and they could still look at it as a learning experience rather than, uh, in something that inherently had to be a confrontation.
[47:15.660 --> 47:19.420]  Now it's interesting that that was mentioned in your indictment as one of the companies, right?
[47:19.540 --> 47:20.720]  That was, uh, that was listed.
[47:21.980 --> 47:24.420]  Yes, it is, uh, something that was alleged in the indictment.
[47:24.460 --> 47:27.440]  I actually have not yet been indicted as of right now as a criminal complaint.
[47:27.640 --> 47:27.860]  Okay.
[47:28.420 --> 47:37.640]  But I mean, this is something that, uh, these people could conceivably be character witnesses for you and yet they're listed in the indictment by the federal government as if they were also joining in on this.
[47:37.720 --> 47:38.500]  So it's very misleading.
[47:39.960 --> 47:43.360]  Well, um, I'm, I'm sure that it, it made sense to them at the time.
[47:43.600 --> 47:47.260]  I, I don't know what their legal strategy is.
[47:47.400 --> 47:47.740]  All right.
[47:47.960 --> 47:48.900]  Let's take some phone calls.
[47:49.020 --> 47:49.980]  We have only a few minutes left.
[47:50.120 --> 47:51.780]  212-209-2900.
[47:51.900 --> 47:52.960]  We're on the phone with Adrian Lemmo.
[47:53.940 --> 47:54.720]  And good evening.
[47:54.880 --> 47:55.300]  You're on the air.
[47:55.840 --> 47:56.000]  Hi.
[47:56.220 --> 47:58.420]  This is a kind of a general question for everyone there.
[47:58.760 --> 48:01.520]  Um, I don't know if you know what an EE bond is.
[48:01.620 --> 48:05.700]  It's those little bonds that those savings bonds that you sometimes get from your aunt Tilly.
[48:05.840 --> 48:06.780]  You know what I'm talking about?
[48:06.960 --> 48:08.760]  The government issues those paper bonds.
[48:09.360 --> 48:09.720]  Okay.
[48:09.760 --> 48:10.880]  Let's make this a quick question then.
[48:10.920 --> 48:11.060]  Okay.
[48:11.120 --> 48:11.920]  The question is this.
[48:12.240 --> 48:14.120]  They're going to put them online.
[48:15.120 --> 48:16.720]  How safe is that going to be?
[48:16.780 --> 48:18.480]  In other words, it's going to be with the treasury.
[48:18.480 --> 48:24.020]  They're going to want your social security number and your rooting number on the bank that you deal with.
[48:24.200 --> 48:25.540]  How safe is that?
[48:26.120 --> 48:27.220]  Adrian, you want to take this one?
[48:27.760 --> 48:29.920]  You know, personally, I don't even have a bank account anymore.
[48:30.060 --> 48:33.760]  Uh, I used to, and I just had enough bad experiences with it.
[48:33.840 --> 48:37.840]  And not all of them even related to electronic fraud, although there was a little bit of that.
[48:38.500 --> 48:46.020]  But personally, I've seen enough about computers to distrust anything that puts my money in a place where computers have control over where it goes.
[48:46.980 --> 48:52.400]  Um, I, I personally would feel more comfortable with a, with a paper bearer bond sitting under my mattress.
[48:52.620 --> 48:57.500]  And I can't speak for everyone, but it's one of those things that there's so many points of failure.
[48:57.660 --> 48:59.460]  I wouldn't want to trust my livelihood to it.
[48:59.480 --> 49:00.840]  Does anybody in the room disagree with this?
[49:01.200 --> 49:02.460]  I don't disagree with it.
[49:02.500 --> 49:14.180]  I would also be kind of wary, especially recently there was sold on eBay to machines to some college student, which held thousands of bank records on them because they were accidentally filed as white.
[49:14.340 --> 49:15.240]  No, they caught that.
[49:15.420 --> 49:16.220]  They almost did that.
[49:16.340 --> 49:17.140]  Oh, they almost sold it?
[49:17.300 --> 49:21.280]  They almost, but how many times didn't they catch it and, uh, and not report it?
[49:21.280 --> 49:24.360]  And if, if the woman's worried, she can just go down to the bank and buy her bonds.
[49:24.520 --> 49:28.140]  You know, if she's, if she's just that much worried that she's got to ask, go down to the bank.
[49:28.320 --> 49:28.580]  All right.
[49:28.700 --> 49:30.100]  Good evening.
[49:30.240 --> 49:30.600]  You're on the air.
[49:31.300 --> 49:32.680]  Yeah, this is off the hooks, Rebel.
[49:32.820 --> 49:33.360]  And you're listening.
[49:33.560 --> 49:34.140]  No, it's not.
[49:43.280 --> 49:44.260]  Oh, hi.
[49:44.660 --> 49:53.580]  I work for a lawyer and I would suggest that Adrian doesn't do any kind of radio interviews like this unless he has his lawyer present when he does it.
[49:54.160 --> 50:00.060]  If the lawyer I work for, one of his clients did something like this, he'd go through the roof.
[50:00.220 --> 50:06.160]  I mean, that's some really good advice to him, not to do interviews like this on the radio without his lawyer present.
[50:06.160 --> 50:07.360]  Well, thanks a lot.
[50:07.680 --> 50:08.720]  No, I agree with that.
[50:09.680 --> 50:10.280]  That's great.
[50:10.280 --> 50:12.400]  Having our listeners call in and tell us to stop talking.
[50:12.500 --> 50:14.020]  That's really nice.
[50:14.120 --> 50:18.440]  Well, I think, Adrian, you thought it through and I think you're using your best judgment here.
[50:19.280 --> 50:21.980]  I think that the benefits outweigh the downsides.
[50:22.180 --> 50:26.220]  I think that 10 years, 20 years down the line, I'm going to be very interested in hearing my own voice.
[50:26.380 --> 50:31.000]  Yeah, and you'll be forever stored in the 2600 archives in the off-the-hook section.
[50:31.180 --> 50:35.780]  And it outweighs any potential punishment you may receive.
[50:36.720 --> 50:39.180]  You can listen to it in solitary 10 years from now.
[50:39.300 --> 50:43.260]  Yeah, and besides, do you really need to pay the lawyer to listen to the conference?
[50:43.280 --> 50:44.280]  That's the whole point.
[50:44.540 --> 50:45.360]  All right, let's take a phone call.
[50:45.440 --> 50:45.700]  Good evening.
[50:45.780 --> 50:46.300]  You're on the air.
[50:47.780 --> 50:48.140]  Hello?
[50:48.420 --> 50:48.820]  Go ahead.
[50:50.900 --> 50:52.620]  Is this the 2600, right?
[50:52.760 --> 50:53.200]  Off the hook.
[50:53.220 --> 50:53.860]  Yes, you're on the air.
[50:53.920 --> 50:54.160]  Go ahead.
[50:55.040 --> 50:59.200]  I want to tell Adrian that we appreciate him and we're supporting him.
[51:00.020 --> 51:00.820]  Where are you calling from?
[51:01.400 --> 51:02.140]  Savannah, Georgia.
[51:02.640 --> 51:03.000]  Okay.
[51:03.840 --> 51:04.820]  Anything else you want to say?
[51:06.020 --> 51:09.640]  Um, the, you know, just, I don't know.
[51:11.220 --> 51:16.340]  The people in the 2600 IRC room told me to call.
[51:16.780 --> 51:17.080]  Okay.
[51:17.860 --> 51:20.980]  Well, if the people in the IRC room tell you to do something, you better do it.
[51:21.080 --> 51:22.460]  So, good move there.
[51:22.640 --> 51:23.400]  Thanks for calling.
[51:23.540 --> 51:25.000]  Let's take another phone call.
[51:25.320 --> 51:25.880]  Good evening.
[51:26.000 --> 51:26.340]  You're on the air.
[51:27.240 --> 51:27.640]  Hello.
[51:27.860 --> 51:28.360]  Yes, go ahead.
[51:28.360 --> 51:38.540]  I just wanted to say, you know, I'm surprised at you comparing what this guy did to someone taking a drink as being against the law.
[51:38.540 --> 51:45.160]  What this guy did is equivalent to coming into your home or coming into a bank.
[51:46.260 --> 51:47.300]  Not physically.
[51:47.300 --> 51:51.860]  You don't have to go in physically to a place to steal something from him.
[51:52.240 --> 51:53.680]  He, this guy is a criminal.
[51:53.980 --> 51:55.220]  He's a screwball.
[51:55.400 --> 51:58.340]  He should get, he, they should cut his fingers off.
[51:58.720 --> 51:59.940]  That's what he should get.
[52:00.180 --> 52:00.780]  Thank you.
[52:01.040 --> 52:07.840]  Oh, thank you for continuing to talk because you, you, you left it so I don't have to say anything to be happy about the side I'm on.
[52:07.980 --> 52:08.520]  Thank you so much.
[52:08.580 --> 52:10.980]  You just got to let people talk and they, they bury themselves.
[52:11.600 --> 52:11.980]  Good evening.
[52:12.080 --> 52:12.560]  You're on the air.
[52:12.920 --> 52:13.440]  All right.
[52:13.540 --> 52:14.500]  That person thought better of me.
[52:14.900 --> 52:15.360]  Good evening.
[52:15.460 --> 52:16.000]  You're on the air.
[52:16.420 --> 52:17.680]  You're listening to New York.
[52:17.820 --> 52:19.640]  Rebel, I'm going to get you.
[52:19.800 --> 52:20.900]  I, I mean, I really am.
[52:21.400 --> 52:21.940]  Good evening.
[52:22.080 --> 52:22.620]  You're on the air.
[52:24.180 --> 52:24.940]  Go ahead, please.
[52:25.540 --> 52:26.220]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[52:26.220 --> 52:32.620]  Did you find out any information about owning previous, like, formats of, of copywritten material?
[52:32.860 --> 52:34.040]  You made that phone call last week?
[52:34.200 --> 52:34.460]  Yes.
[52:34.620 --> 52:35.980]  We, we heard nothing in return.
[52:36.160 --> 52:36.780]  Absolutely nothing.
[52:37.000 --> 52:37.260]  Zilch.
[52:37.380 --> 52:41.320]  So you might want to call the Recording Industry of America at 1-800-BAD-BEAT, was it?
[52:41.460 --> 52:42.020]  Bad-BEAT.
[52:42.120 --> 52:46.700]  And, and ask them yourself if it's okay to download music that you've already bought if it's on vinyl.
[52:46.940 --> 52:48.100]  And then get back to us.
[52:48.460 --> 52:48.640]  Yeah.
[52:48.740 --> 52:49.220]  Okay, thanks.
[52:49.800 --> 52:50.180]  All right.
[52:50.260 --> 52:51.380]  We're just about out of time.
[52:51.620 --> 52:55.480]  So, Adrian, any, any, any, any other thoughts from you?
[52:56.320 --> 53:00.120]  Um, I would like to respond to one of the callers with the hope that they're still listening.
[53:00.300 --> 53:07.120]  And without commenting on the merits of any of the allegations, I think it's important that people remember that I am innocent until proven guilty.
[53:08.060 --> 53:15.520]  But I think that computers and the environments which they create are really an entirely unique situation that can't be effectively analogized in any way.
[53:15.620 --> 53:16.220]  It's not a house.
[53:16.320 --> 53:16.940]  It's not a garage.
[53:17.160 --> 53:17.840]  It's not your car.
[53:17.840 --> 53:19.780]  It's not a thousand mechanics hotwire on your car.
[53:20.220 --> 53:22.580]  It's something that doesn't really have precedent in human history.
[53:22.700 --> 53:24.380]  And I really think it should be parsed as such.
[53:25.060 --> 53:25.680]  Well said.
[53:26.200 --> 53:29.700]  And, uh, I, I wouldn't have taken the time to respond to that person, but I'm glad you did.
[53:30.620 --> 53:32.200]  Adrian, uh, best of luck to you.
[53:32.320 --> 53:33.940]  What's, uh, what, what comes up next for you?
[53:34.740 --> 53:38.440]  Well, I'm back in New York for a hearing in early October.
[53:39.380 --> 53:41.000]  And we'll see how it goes from there.
[53:41.440 --> 53:45.080]  Um, I still have faith that things are going to work themselves out.
[53:46.280 --> 53:46.600]  Okay.
[53:46.700 --> 53:47.540]  Well, let us know when you're in town.
[53:47.680 --> 53:48.000]  Stick around.
[53:48.120 --> 53:50.620]  We can, uh, you know, show you the sights at least.
[53:51.040 --> 53:51.840]  Some of the better sights.
[53:52.240 --> 53:53.600]  And think of the opportunity to be on here.
[53:53.920 --> 53:56.920]  They, they, uh, they made you fly on September 11th, didn't they?
[53:57.100 --> 53:58.220]  Into, into New York.
[53:58.340 --> 53:58.420]  Yes, they did.
[53:58.440 --> 53:59.820]  I wasn't going to say anything about that.
[53:59.960 --> 54:03.700]  I, I, I didn't know if it would be in good taste to complain, but I, that, I, that did prominently occur to me.
[54:03.700 --> 54:14.480]  Well, just, just imagine this, that you, you're being, uh, charged with a crime and the federal government insist that you fly from California to New York on September 11th, uh, to, uh, to, I guess, face those charges.
[54:14.820 --> 54:16.620]  And then you had to fly back on your own expense, right?
[54:17.140 --> 54:23.560]  Actually, they, they, they, they were reasonable enough to, um, allow my return trip to be paid for by the government, for which I am grateful.
[54:23.560 --> 54:23.620]  Oh, okay.
[54:24.040 --> 54:24.620]  That's, that's...
[54:24.620 --> 54:28.480]  They have shown a certain amount of good faith and respects like that so far.
[54:28.620 --> 54:35.200]  And that's one of the things that heartens me, that makes me think that, you know, this may actually be a reasonable situation.
[54:35.420 --> 54:35.820]  All right.
[54:37.780 --> 54:38.400]  Hope alive then.
[54:38.800 --> 54:40.440]  Thanks again for, uh, for being part of the show.
[54:40.600 --> 54:45.200]  And, uh, we'll be, uh, staying in touch with, uh, with this situation and what goes on with it.
[54:45.500 --> 54:46.440]  Manuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[54:46.560 --> 54:48.520]  We'll be back again next week with more fun.
[54:48.860 --> 54:49.080]  Good night.
[55:01.440 --> 55:20.520]  Day after day They send my friends away To mansions cold and grey To mansions cold and grey To the far side of town Where the thin men stalk the streets While the signs stay underground
[55:23.690 --> 55:37.030]  Day after day They tell me I can go They tell me I can blow To the far side of town.
[55:37.470 --> 55:40.630]  Where it's pointless to behind.
[55:41.270 --> 55:44.170]  Cause it's such a long way down.
[55:45.510 --> 55:48.610]  So I tell them that I can fly.
[55:48.950 --> 55:50.190]  I will scream.
[55:50.650 --> 55:52.930]  I will break my arm.
[55:53.850 --> 55:56.630]  I will do me harm.
[55:59.200 --> 56:01.100]  Here I stand.
[56:01.320 --> 56:02.740]  Foot in hand.
[56:03.200 --> 56:04.300]  Talking to me.
[56:04.320 --> 56:05.520]  To my wall.
[56:06.160 --> 56:09.120]  I'm not quite right at all.
[56:09.420 --> 56:10.060]  Am I?
[56:12.200 --> 56:14.220]  Don't set me free.
[56:14.760 --> 56:17.820]  I'm as heavy as could be.
[56:18.280 --> 56:21.320]  Just my lip, we up, my knee.
[56:21.700 --> 56:24.960]  And my EST makes free.
[56:25.320 --> 56:28.120]  Cause I drive to stay here.
[56:29.040 --> 56:31.820]  With all the mad men.
[56:31.820 --> 56:37.380]  That perish when the sad men blow me free.
[56:39.530 --> 56:42.420]  And I'd rather play here.
[56:43.000 --> 56:45.720]  With all the mad men.
[56:46.340 --> 56:48.660]  But I'm quite content.
[56:49.000 --> 56:51.460]  They're all the same as me.
[57:10.450 --> 57:11.910]  Off the hook.
[57:12.770 --> 57:15.170]  Stay tuned for...
[57:16.270 --> 57:17.030]  Five...
[57:17.030 --> 57:17.770]  Six...
[57:17.770 --> 57:19.410]  The Personal Computer Show.
[57:26.770 --> 57:32.290]  The Personal Computer Show will be coming up right after this special message.
[57:35.710 --> 57:50.830]  Renowned scholar, author, and political activist, Dr. Cornel West will be the guest speaker at a special forum sponsored by the People's Organization for Progress, Saturday, September 20th, 7 o'clock p.m., St. Peter Claver Church, 56 Elmwood Avenue, Montclair,
[57:50.990 --> 57:51.430]  New Jersey.
[57:51.430 --> 57:55.990]  The subject of the forum will be connecting the struggles for racial justice and peace.
[57:56.310 --> 58:05.270]  Dr. West currently teaches at Princeton University and is the author of numerous articles and books, including the best-selling Race Matters and the Cornel West Reader.
[58:05.510 --> 58:13.830]  For more information, please call the People's Organization for Progress at 973-801-0001.
[58:13.890 --> 58:18.470]  That's 973-801-0001.
[58:18.470 --> 58:21.590]  That's 973-801-0001.
[58:23.150 --> 58:28.690]  That's 973-801-0001.