[00:00.000 --> 00:05.940]  Police in Islamabad chased and beat up a poor scavenger near the venue of the conference.
[00:06.280 --> 00:09.180]  They say he was trying to tear away a banner.
[00:09.460 --> 00:18.300]  This weeping man said he did not know what was happening and he did not think it was wrong to wrap around a piece of cloth hanging on the roadside.
[00:18.540 --> 00:21.160]  The bruised man was shivering with cold.
[00:21.420 --> 00:25.440]  For Free Speech Radio News, I'm Masrur Hussain in Islamabad.
[00:27.000 --> 00:36.700]  Free Speech Radio News is produced at Pacifica Station's WBAI in New York and KPFA in Berkeley and community radio station WMNF in Tampa, Florida.
[00:37.280 --> 00:40.120]  The newscast is produced by Katta Mesta and Simba Russo.
[00:40.720 --> 00:43.140]  Headlines editors are Randy Zimmerman and Nell Abram.
[00:43.540 --> 00:45.620]  Our DC editor is Mitch Jesserich.
[00:45.820 --> 00:51.660]  The technical production team is Jade Padgett-Seekens, Pauline Bartalone, Mick Million and Lindsay Benedict.
[00:52.260 --> 00:54.160]  FSRN is a worker-run collective.
[00:54.160 --> 00:59.940]  And for more information, visit our website at www.fsrn.org.
[01:00.380 --> 01:02.700]  In New York, I'm Deepa Fernandes.
[01:04.560 --> 01:08.420]  And it's one minute after seven o'clock time once again for Off The Hook.
[01:13.580 --> 01:35.460]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would But we'll be born for the best, expect the worst I hope that's understood But we'll be born
[02:09.250 --> 02:10.150]  And a good evening to everybody.
[02:10.270 --> 02:10.890]  The program's Off The Hook.
[02:11.010 --> 02:15.290]  Emmanuel Goldstein back in New York after wandering around Europe for the last couple of weeks.
[02:15.410 --> 02:16.690]  And boy, that was a lot of fun.
[02:17.610 --> 02:18.590]  Redhack is here as well.
[02:18.650 --> 02:20.130]  He was wandering around as well.
[02:20.250 --> 02:20.750]  So it was Mitch.
[02:21.610 --> 02:22.150]  Fun, huh?
[02:22.470 --> 02:22.690]  Yeah.
[02:22.830 --> 02:23.770]  Quite a place over there.
[02:24.110 --> 02:25.090]  It is, it is.
[02:25.090 --> 02:25.590]  I warned you.
[02:25.750 --> 02:27.410]  I'm sad to be back.
[02:27.810 --> 02:28.970]  I'm happy to be back.
[02:29.110 --> 02:30.850]  I'm happy to be back, but I'm sad to be away.
[02:31.130 --> 02:34.530]  Yeah, well, you don't have to face all sorts of laws you didn't have to face over there.
[02:34.730 --> 02:35.470]  Actually, I do.
[02:35.730 --> 02:36.730]  Well, yeah.
[02:37.370 --> 02:38.750]  Oh boy, you don't know.
[02:39.090 --> 02:41.450]  There's just all kinds of craziness going on here.
[02:41.610 --> 02:43.570]  But you know, there's also a lot of good going on here as well.
[02:43.570 --> 02:47.550]  And there's a lot of good people and a lot of people that want to change things and fix things.
[02:48.030 --> 02:49.230]  And I see similarities.
[02:49.590 --> 02:51.410]  And I think we, I think there's hope.
[02:51.810 --> 02:52.710]  I don't want to sound too optimistic.
[02:54.230 --> 02:55.830]  But, well, you know, you know how it is.
[02:55.910 --> 02:57.670]  Bernie, you're speaking of the Voice of Optimism.
[02:57.770 --> 02:58.350]  You're there in Philadelphia.
[03:00.150 --> 03:00.630]  Aren't you?
[03:00.910 --> 03:01.210]  Yes, sir.
[03:01.670 --> 03:02.050]  Uh-oh.
[03:02.530 --> 03:03.150]  Did we lose Bernie?
[03:04.150 --> 03:06.190]  Bernie is speaking to us on a Sprint PCS phone.
[03:06.870 --> 03:10.790]  And you know what happens when, well, his light is still on, isn't it?
[03:10.990 --> 03:11.530]  Yes, sir.
[03:12.330 --> 03:13.230]  Okay, it's there.
[03:13.230 --> 03:15.350]  I don't know, Mike, what you think you're going to do by walking over here.
[03:15.750 --> 03:16.850]  The phone light is on.
[03:17.450 --> 03:18.250]  Are you going to press that button?
[03:18.330 --> 03:19.690]  If you press that button, you're going to hang up on it.
[03:19.730 --> 03:20.910]  Well, he could be just being silent.
[03:21.910 --> 03:22.730]  Well, now you've done it.
[03:23.850 --> 03:24.910]  Well, he's gone now.
[03:27.550 --> 03:28.690]  I don't know what that accomplished.
[03:30.070 --> 03:31.930]  All right, well, now we have to call him all over again.
[03:32.010 --> 03:33.370]  It just sounds very amateuristic.
[03:33.530 --> 03:38.530]  And, you know, people call in to complain that we rustle papers around and throw things at each other and don't know what we're doing.
[03:38.950 --> 03:39.650]  You have the number, right?
[03:40.310 --> 03:40.870]  It's 215.
[03:41.050 --> 03:41.250]  Okay.
[03:41.490 --> 03:41.810]  You got it?
[03:41.930 --> 03:42.270]  All right.
[03:44.150 --> 03:44.510]  Okay.
[03:44.750 --> 03:46.070]  No, no, everything's under control here.
[03:46.150 --> 03:47.830]  No need to panic.
[03:49.530 --> 03:54.430]  Bernie will be joining us in Philadelphia momentarily with all kinds of other important information.
[03:55.010 --> 03:59.130]  But I got to say, you know, coming back into this country, you guys came a little earlier.
[03:59.890 --> 04:01.110]  You came what day?
[04:01.270 --> 04:03.270]  Oh, did you come after their new fingerprinting?
[04:03.270 --> 04:03.670]  Yes.
[04:05.090 --> 04:06.210]  That's what I wanted to talk about.
[04:06.490 --> 04:07.510]  That's what I wanted to talk about.
[04:07.710 --> 04:12.710]  I came yesterday into the country and the fingerprinting thing started on Monday.
[04:13.350 --> 04:15.830]  Now, for those who don't know, do we have them?
[04:18.210 --> 04:19.910]  You hung up on them as soon as you connected.
[04:20.190 --> 04:22.150]  You have to put them on hold first and then hang up.
[04:22.890 --> 04:23.150]  All right.
[04:23.950 --> 04:26.350]  Anyway, yes, the fingerprinting thing started...
[04:26.350 --> 04:26.710]  Oh, yes.
[04:26.890 --> 04:27.850]  You want the magic code.
[04:28.090 --> 04:28.430]  All right.
[04:28.790 --> 04:29.630]  There we go.
[04:30.650 --> 04:31.010]  There.
[04:31.130 --> 04:31.550]  Print it out.
[04:33.410 --> 04:33.770]  Okay.
[04:34.350 --> 04:34.710]  Yes.
[04:34.850 --> 04:36.330]  So, the fingerprinting thing started on Monday.
[04:36.910 --> 04:45.510]  And that's only for certain people from certain countries have to have their fingers fingerprinted and their picture taken.
[04:45.550 --> 04:49.330]  I have all kinds of information that I printed out before getting here.
[04:49.450 --> 05:01.610]  But I just want to say that when I came in yesterday, it was just kind of freaky seeing these machines all hooked up to every single exit line or entrance line to the United States.
[05:01.670 --> 05:02.230]  Is Bernie on now?
[05:02.370 --> 05:02.850]  Bernie, are you there?
[05:03.550 --> 05:04.310]  I'm here.
[05:04.510 --> 05:05.230]  What happened to you?
[05:05.230 --> 05:08.050]  Well, you were summarily dumped by Sprint PTS, I guess.
[05:08.410 --> 05:12.410]  Well, they must have an inkling of what I'm about to say about their company today.
[05:12.890 --> 05:13.290]  Okay.
[05:13.570 --> 05:15.330]  I have some things to say about them as well.
[05:15.810 --> 05:19.030]  A whole agenda of material to get out tonight.
[05:19.190 --> 05:20.690]  But right now, I'm talking about the U.S.
[05:20.790 --> 05:22.730]  visit program, which I assume you're familiar with, Bernie.
[05:23.650 --> 05:26.970]  I had been following this, but I guess you just missed it by a hair, didn't you?
[05:26.970 --> 05:27.890]  No, I didn't just miss it.
[05:27.930 --> 05:29.290]  I actually saw it by a hair.
[05:29.470 --> 05:30.050]  Oh, good.
[05:30.190 --> 05:32.650]  It started on Monday, and I arrived on Tuesday.
[05:32.650 --> 05:39.470]  So, yes, I saw all the little fingerprint devices set up in every little corridor that you go through to get into the country.
[05:39.590 --> 05:41.790]  Obviously, I didn't have to do it because they don't want my fingerprint.
[05:41.790 --> 05:42.690]  They already have it, I guess.
[05:43.150 --> 05:50.310]  But this is for particular countries that aren't part of the Visa Waiver Program, I believe it's called.
[05:51.630 --> 05:56.730]  And lots of you from those countries, I know you'd be interested to know if you have to...
[05:56.730 --> 05:59.010]  28 countries, I think it is.
[05:59.070 --> 05:59.710]  Here are the countries.
[05:59.930 --> 06:01.370]  These countries don't have to worry.
[06:01.370 --> 06:20.250]  Andorra, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino.
[06:20.690 --> 06:22.590]  I mean, some of these countries, why are they even by the counting them?
[06:22.670 --> 06:24.570]  San Marino is about as big as our radio station.
[06:24.870 --> 06:27.610]  Well, that's why they don't need to get fingerprinted.
[06:28.090 --> 06:28.690]  Exactly.
[06:28.810 --> 06:29.530]  They already know everybody.
[06:29.530 --> 06:36.550]  Uh, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.
[06:36.730 --> 06:38.310]  These are the ones that are exempt from...
[06:38.310 --> 06:39.490]  These are all exempt, yes.
[06:39.610 --> 06:40.430]  It's 27 of them.
[06:40.570 --> 06:47.230]  Um, for citizens with the unrestricted right of permanent abode in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man.
[06:47.810 --> 06:50.190]  Uh, I, I guess those people don't have to worry either.
[06:50.390 --> 06:52.370]  Do they take their picture with a webcam, too?
[06:52.830 --> 06:53.230]  Um...
[06:53.230 --> 06:54.470]  Or something, some sort of...
[06:54.470 --> 06:55.430]  Yes, they do.
[06:55.590 --> 07:02.810]  Because as we were coming back, they had that set up, and we were asking ourselves, why they had a camera they weren't using, uh, at each...
[07:02.810 --> 07:07.830]  Yeah, the person I was traveling with, in fact, noticed that right away, and, and, and saw the, the little webcam thing there.
[07:08.010 --> 07:09.070]  And I said, boy, that thing...
[07:09.070 --> 07:11.130]  He thought that thing was set up to permanently record.
[07:11.250 --> 07:11.490]  Exactly.
[07:11.730 --> 07:12.910]  That's what we thought on the way back.
[07:12.950 --> 07:17.410]  Yeah, not just the photo, but to record everything that you do, and say, and think, and, et cetera.
[07:17.410 --> 07:21.790]  I noticed two countries that are missing from this particular list are Canada and Mexico.
[07:22.850 --> 07:24.470]  Do you notice I didn't say those, those countries?
[07:24.830 --> 07:26.030]  I think there's a reason for that.
[07:26.130 --> 07:31.750]  I think they're exempt because they're land-border countries, and I think land-border countries for now are, are, are, um, exempt.
[07:32.610 --> 07:41.090]  Um, but, uh, if you look at, uh, if you go to www.dhs.gov, which is Department of Homeland Security, uh, dot gov. By the way, hi, uh, Jeff.
[07:41.210 --> 07:41.750]  I didn't say hi to you.
[07:41.870 --> 07:42.390]  And I noticed.
[07:42.510 --> 07:44.330]  I thought maybe you were mad because I hadn't been around for two weeks.
[07:44.330 --> 07:47.510]  And, Mike, well, you've been out gallivanting throughout, uh, where have you been?
[07:48.110 --> 07:48.430]  Out.
[07:49.370 --> 07:49.870]  Just out?
[07:49.970 --> 07:50.490]  Okay, fine.
[07:51.510 --> 07:52.130]  Don't tell me.
[07:52.350 --> 07:55.010]  And, Mike, uh, of course, uh, you've been, uh, holding the fort down here.
[07:55.250 --> 07:55.570]  Yeah.
[07:55.970 --> 07:56.970]  Keeping things under control.
[07:57.610 --> 07:58.070]  Attempting to.
[07:58.230 --> 07:58.470]  All right.
[07:58.810 --> 08:01.610]  Well, last week's show got pretty out of hand with all the fireworks, uh, in Amsterdam.
[08:01.610 --> 08:05.430]  Look, there was nothing I could do with the fireworks for, like, thousands of miles away.
[08:05.630 --> 08:06.650]  They were, they were.
[08:07.510 --> 08:09.030]  But they felt like they were right next to me.
[08:10.170 --> 08:11.230]  Probably because I was right there.
[08:11.870 --> 08:13.850]  Um, but, okay, continuing with the, uh, U.S.
[08:13.970 --> 08:16.330]  visit, um, um, program, which is a silly name.
[08:16.430 --> 08:17.270]  It looks like a phone number.
[08:17.410 --> 08:20.450]  They have it at the bottom of their, um, of their, uh, signs.
[08:21.190 --> 08:23.830]  And I was kind of upset because, you know, you can't take pictures.
[08:24.090 --> 08:28.970]  Very clearly they say no cameras, uh, no cell phones, and no smoking.
[08:29.230 --> 08:30.590]  Those are three things you can't do there.
[08:32.330 --> 08:38.630]  Um, if you go to their website and print out all kinds of interesting things, you'll have all the facts that you could possibly, um, possibly need.
[08:40.030 --> 08:49.270]  Um, as far as how this, uh, how this particular thing got started, the tragic acts of September 11, 2001, increased the urgency to create a comprehensive entry-exit system.
[08:49.850 --> 08:54.490]  And the Congress passed two important acts that have a significant impact on the U.S.
[08:54.570 --> 08:55.250]  visit program.
[08:55.550 --> 09:09.810]  Uh, in the USA Patriot Act, Congress expressed a requirement for, quote, speed, unquote, in the implementation, and included the requirement that the White House Office of Homeland Security, OHS, be consulted with respect to the establishment of the entry and exit program.
[09:09.970 --> 09:16.990]  The Patriot Act also introduced the concept of biometrics to establish a technology standard that would be used in the development of the U.S.
[09:17.050 --> 09:17.650]  visit system.
[09:17.750 --> 09:20.330]  So biometrics are a very important aspect to all of this.
[09:20.890 --> 09:31.030]  Uh, the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act expanded on the USA Patriot Act and the Data Management Improvement Act by directly, uh, directing increased requirements for U.S.
[09:31.330 --> 09:36.690]  visit system integration interoperability with other law enforcement and intelligence systems, biometrics, and accessibility.
[09:37.150 --> 09:39.590]  It all sounds pretty scary and high-tech.
[09:41.310 --> 09:47.130]  Um, what they are doing is, uh, checking, um, people as they come in, checking when they go out, too.
[09:47.290 --> 09:50.590]  People, uh, people have to, uh, do this as they leave as well.
[09:50.650 --> 09:53.410]  It's called, uh, the checking out part of this whole thing.
[09:54.090 --> 09:55.850]  Uh, now, specific classes, who's exempt?
[09:55.990 --> 10:02.250]  Specific classes of diplomats and some other officials are exempt from biometric enrollment under U.S.
[10:02.350 --> 10:02.610]  visit.
[10:03.350 --> 10:05.370]  And, uh, here's some other interesting things.
[10:05.530 --> 10:09.890]  Uh, there are also other exemptions, such as visitors under the age of 14.
[10:10.750 --> 10:11.290]  That's right.
[10:11.390 --> 10:14.910]  Now, Cata operatives out there, start them young, you know, and they'll all get in.
[10:15.010 --> 10:16.990]  Or, or over age 79.
[10:17.930 --> 10:26.750]  So, you can see a whole wide range of people trying to get into the country now, under age 14 and over age 79, that, uh, will have no way of tracking.
[10:27.670 --> 10:28.610]  They're exempt from the U.S.
[10:28.670 --> 10:29.370]  visit procedures.
[10:29.370 --> 10:29.750]  The U.S.
[10:29.750 --> 10:31.330]  visit program will initially apply...
[10:32.250 --> 10:32.690]  Initially...
[10:32.690 --> 10:34.030]  They, they, they throw these in here.
[10:34.590 --> 10:35.090]  The U.S.
[10:35.110 --> 10:45.370]  visit program will initially apply only to foreign visitors seeking admission on non-immigrant visas and will not include visitors seeking admission under the visa waiver program or lawful permanent residence, green card holders.
[10:45.930 --> 10:47.090]  Uh, at this time, the U.S.
[10:47.310 --> 10:51.630]  visit program will not apply to foreign visitors seeking entry at land border ports of entry.
[10:51.790 --> 10:52.990]  Again, at this time.
[10:53.190 --> 10:55.890]  What, what if you turn 14 while you're over here?
[10:56.370 --> 10:57.970]  I guess you're in a lot of trouble then.
[10:58.290 --> 11:00.110]  Because you'll be exiting without entering.
[11:00.330 --> 11:03.130]  So anyone could come in through Canada or Mexico...
[11:03.130 --> 11:04.110]  That's the thing, yeah.
[11:04.250 --> 11:07.470]  You could come in through the land border countries and not have to go through this.
[11:07.770 --> 11:08.850]  Now, one other question.
[11:09.030 --> 11:11.090]  The diplomats are exempt from this?
[11:11.370 --> 11:13.050]  I imagine so, because they're always coming and going.
[11:13.290 --> 11:15.370]  Yes, but what difference would it make?
[11:15.450 --> 11:18.070]  I mean, is it just because it's embarrassing or rude to do this to people?
[11:18.390 --> 11:19.510]  Diplomats get away with all kinds of things.
[11:19.650 --> 11:21.210]  They can park their cars in all kinds of places.
[11:21.370 --> 11:22.410]  They don't have to deal with...
[11:22.410 --> 11:24.770]  They have diplomatic pouches that they can have all kinds of things in.
[11:24.770 --> 11:27.830]  Yeah, they don't have to worry about that.
[11:28.090 --> 11:30.190]  I was just wondering why the exemption, that's all.
[11:30.930 --> 11:32.590]  There's also a bunch of deadlines here.
[11:32.690 --> 11:38.810]  Deadlines for completing a comprehensive automated entry-exit program at all ports of entries, known as POS, P-O-E's.
[11:39.110 --> 11:48.590]  The law requires that an automated entry-slash-exit program be implemented at air and seaports by December 31, 2003.
[11:49.190 --> 11:53.510]  The 50 busiest land ports of entry by December 31, 2004.
[11:53.510 --> 11:56.470]  So, the land ports are not exempt for long.
[11:56.650 --> 12:00.170]  And all points of entry by December 31, 2005.
[12:01.490 --> 12:03.410]  What fingerprint scanners were they using?
[12:03.510 --> 12:03.950]  Did you see?
[12:04.170 --> 12:05.690]  Well, I didn't really get a chance to play with it.
[12:05.750 --> 12:06.890]  They kind of were watching me.
[12:07.130 --> 12:16.330]  I think I remember seeing something about being able to fool commercial fingerprint scanners with gelatin that was molded a certain way for it to not get a right scan.
[12:16.330 --> 12:18.070]  Well, you know, I imagine...
[12:18.070 --> 12:19.830]  I mean, they're easy to fool.
[12:21.790 --> 12:25.650]  Well, they have all kinds of people watching everything you do.
[12:25.830 --> 12:30.110]  There's, you know, one-way mirrors and parabolic microphones and things like that.
[12:30.110 --> 12:33.110]  So, I don't know if that's the best place to experiment with that kind of a thing.
[12:33.370 --> 12:40.830]  Well, I'm just saying that it would probably be not too difficult to fool a fingerprint scanner if someone really wanted to.
[12:40.830 --> 12:47.410]  I'm handing you the official thing that they have on their website that has all kinds of nice little diagrams, too.
[12:47.550 --> 12:48.910]  The graphics were great on the next page.
[12:48.990 --> 12:49.430]  The graphics.
[12:49.590 --> 12:50.810]  They just love these graphics.
[12:50.890 --> 12:55.310]  These are the same ones that they had for, you know, the danger of terrorist attack things.
[12:55.530 --> 12:59.830]  You know, I'm looking at these graphics, and I don't understand at all what's going on.
[13:00.690 --> 13:07.470]  It's basically people allowing people into the country and keeping people online and people putting their fingers in the places we're told.
[13:07.470 --> 13:13.750]  I'm telling you, if I didn't speak English, I would not be able to follow those graphics to know what I was supposed to do.
[13:13.870 --> 13:17.190]  I want a graphic that shows what happens if you don't pass their tests.
[13:17.390 --> 13:18.590]  Oh, that's the one with the gun, don't you see it?
[13:18.630 --> 13:19.250]  Oh, cool.
[13:19.590 --> 13:19.990]  No, no.
[13:21.330 --> 13:28.250]  Okay, so anyway, by October 26, 2004, countries...
[13:28.250 --> 13:29.030]  Listen to this.
[13:29.070 --> 13:47.730]  Countries in the Visa Waiver Program, those are the ones we just mentioned, they're mandated by the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act to certify that they have programs to issue their nationals machine-readable passports that incorporate biometric identifiers that comply with standards issued by the International Civil Aviation Organization.
[13:47.730 --> 13:49.010]  That's ICAO.
[13:49.190 --> 13:57.710]  In addition, by the same time, the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Secretary of State must issue only machine-readable documents that use biometrics.
[13:58.170 --> 13:58.630]  Very.
[13:58.990 --> 14:00.670]  It's very scary, Bernie, very scary.
[14:00.670 --> 14:02.970]  On January 5, 2004, two days ago, U.S.
[14:03.230 --> 14:14.990]  Visit will begin piloting one alternative departure confirmation system, which will be an automated self-service kiosk where visitors with visas will scan their travel documents and repeat the digital finger-scanning process on this inkless device.
[14:15.470 --> 14:16.850]  In 2004, U.S.
[14:16.930 --> 14:21.690]  Visit will pilot other alternatives for exit and, after an evaluation, select the most effective process.
[14:24.210 --> 14:31.690]  There's a bunch of questions here that people obviously would want to ask, such as, well, what does the word biometric mean, for one thing?
[14:32.190 --> 14:33.450]  Biometric, according to U.S.
[14:33.530 --> 14:44.290]  Homeland Security, is a measurable physical characteristic or personal behavioral trait used to recognize the identity or verify the claimed identity of an enrollee.
[14:44.810 --> 14:53.830]  Among the features that can be measured are face, fingerprints, hand geometry, hand writing, iris, retinal, vein, and voice.
[14:53.830 --> 14:55.310]  How does vein work?
[14:55.470 --> 14:56.310]  What are they...
[14:56.310 --> 14:58.090]  They shoot you up with something?
[14:58.650 --> 15:00.310]  Bernie, any idea on what vein is?
[15:01.050 --> 15:01.790]  That was retinal?
[15:01.810 --> 15:05.630]  Maybe it measures how vein you are or not, whether you smile on the camera.
[15:05.810 --> 15:07.890]  But really, this can be boiled down to three words.
[15:08.030 --> 15:09.370]  Machine-readable humans.
[15:09.870 --> 15:10.730]  Yeah, pretty much.
[15:11.450 --> 15:17.810]  Biometric technologies are the basis of an extensive array of highly secure identification and personal verification solutions.
[15:22.110 --> 15:25.110]  And, yeah, you know, it just goes on and on on their website here.
[15:25.870 --> 15:30.170]  And, of course, one of the questions that I imagine is on everybody's minds, will U.S.
[15:30.270 --> 15:32.310]  citizens be required to submit biometric data?
[15:32.390 --> 15:33.930]  The answer to this is a very firm no.
[15:34.290 --> 15:34.830]  U.S.
[15:35.190 --> 15:39.730]  citizens will not be required to be digitally finger-scanned or photographed upon entering the United States.
[15:39.790 --> 15:41.930]  However, U.S.
[15:42.370 --> 16:06.550]  citizens wishing to participate in the dedicated commuter lane, DCL, well, I guess that's kind of like EasyPass if you're coming into the country, DCL programs such as Sentry, that's spelled S-E-N-T-R-I, and Nexus, N-E-X-U-S, I don't know, or the facilitated processing programs may voluntarily submit biographic and biometric data to facilitate their travel.
[16:06.970 --> 16:12.990]  The Department of State will begin issuing machine-readable United States passports that include digital technology in the future.
[16:13.290 --> 16:26.590]  Facial recognition, which involves electronically calibrated measurements of a person's face to verify identity, was selected by ICAO as the globally interoperable biometric for identity verification in travel documents.
[16:26.770 --> 16:30.810]  That no is a total lie, and they know it, because as soon as the U.S.
[16:30.910 --> 16:34.070]  starts implementing these systems, all the countries to which U.S.
[16:34.130 --> 16:38.110]  citizens may want to travel are going to implement similar systems.
[16:38.310 --> 16:38.870]  Like Brazil.
[16:39.050 --> 16:40.270]  Brazil has already started.
[16:40.410 --> 16:40.610]  Yeah.
[16:41.730 --> 16:44.810]  And we're going to have to get biometrics all over the place.
[16:45.070 --> 16:47.630]  Yeah, and they're going to share the information with different governments.
[16:47.830 --> 16:48.710]  Interpol will get involved.
[16:48.830 --> 16:49.590]  Everyone's going to have a good time.
[16:49.670 --> 16:54.330]  Did the people traveling, or the terrorists on September 11th, did they have forged U.S.
[16:54.510 --> 16:56.110]  passports, or was it some other country's passport?
[16:56.210 --> 16:56.950]  Well, that's the other thing.
[16:57.190 --> 16:58.590]  Because if they had a forged U.S.
[16:58.770 --> 17:02.730]  passport, and it looked good enough, then they wouldn't be scanned, they wouldn't have their picture taken.
[17:03.330 --> 17:03.690]  Nobody...
[17:03.690 --> 17:06.570]  I don't remember them scanning my passport at the airport.
[17:06.810 --> 17:07.530]  But here's the thing.
[17:07.630 --> 17:19.650]  Even if they have their fingerprints taken, and their faces scanned, and their veins punctured, or whatever it is they're going to do to them, you know, if the person still wants to be a terrorist, they're going to be a terrorist, and people are going to know who they are.
[17:19.950 --> 17:21.790]  You know, this doesn't really change anything.
[17:21.930 --> 17:23.070]  This only...
[17:23.070 --> 17:24.410]  What are they comparing this list to?
[17:24.510 --> 17:28.330]  How do they know these people are suspects until they do something suspicious?
[17:28.330 --> 17:33.530]  Many times, people don't do something suspicious until after they're already in the place that they're going to do something suspicious.
[17:33.690 --> 17:34.810]  So it doesn't accomplish anything.
[17:34.910 --> 17:38.450]  It just basically takes a whole lot of innocent people and categorizes them all.
[17:38.470 --> 17:40.150]  And it gives a false sense of security.
[17:40.590 --> 17:41.650]  Yeah, and that's what it's all about.
[17:44.250 --> 17:45.310]  Okay, what else?
[17:45.490 --> 17:46.230]  Something very interesting.
[17:46.410 --> 17:47.230]  You mentioned Brazil.
[17:48.730 --> 17:50.730]  This I saw in a CNN story today.
[17:51.790 --> 17:52.390]  U.S.
[17:52.510 --> 17:54.530]  tells Brazil to change security programs.
[17:56.150 --> 17:56.970]  Oh, yes.
[17:57.230 --> 17:57.330]  What?
[17:57.330 --> 18:07.930]  Brazil, of course, is responding to the fact that the United States now requires all of its citizens, or just about all of its citizens, to be fingerprinted when they come into our country.
[18:07.930 --> 18:11.030]  Well, now they say, okay, we're going to require the same thing of you.
[18:11.830 --> 18:13.090]  Well, the U.S.
[18:13.190 --> 18:17.110]  State Department has changed its stance on a new Brazilian security process for U.S.
[18:17.450 --> 18:18.790]  citizens entering the South American nation.
[18:19.190 --> 18:24.430]  Washington is now urging Brazil to alter its new process of fingerprinting and photographing U.S.
[18:24.510 --> 18:24.770]  visitors.
[18:25.450 --> 18:31.790]  We have told the Brazilians that we think that these are measures that provide tremendous inconvenience to travelers and that they need to be changed.
[18:32.850 --> 18:35.430]  That's according to State Department spokesman Richard Boucher.
[18:36.570 --> 18:38.450]  Don't these people hear what they say?
[18:40.030 --> 18:43.890]  Yeah, it provides tremendous inconvenience to travelers and they need to be changed.
[18:43.890 --> 18:47.630]  When we do it, though, it's like, oh, it's only going to add 10 seconds to your trip.
[18:47.910 --> 18:50.250]  Well, we've got God's mandate on it, so it's okay.
[18:50.510 --> 18:53.190]  Just last week, his deputy, J.
[18:53.330 --> 18:56.390]  Adam Errolis, said the United States understood Brazil's new policy.
[18:56.590 --> 18:59.330]  This is their sovereign right to do it if they want to.
[18:59.870 --> 19:03.110]  Brazil's program began after a similar process was announced for the United States.
[19:03.910 --> 19:04.470]  The U.S.
[19:04.530 --> 19:06.190]  visit program began on January 5th.
[19:06.250 --> 19:10.350]  Applied to any visitor, including Brazilians, who are required to have visas to enter the United States.
[19:10.910 --> 19:13.350]  And visitors from most European nations are excluded.
[19:13.930 --> 19:16.950]  This is going to affect people coming over for the HOPE conference in July, obviously.
[19:17.170 --> 19:21.770]  A lot of people are going to be very nervous and upset about having their fingerprints scanned by the U.S.
[19:21.870 --> 19:22.150]  government.
[19:22.750 --> 19:25.070]  And, you know, it's a hard thing to address.
[19:25.630 --> 19:32.090]  Because, you know, we really want to have people come over here, but at the same time, we don't want people to be, you know, treated like criminals.
[19:32.850 --> 19:37.090]  But sometimes you have to fight these things, and the only way to fight them is to be around to fight them.
[19:38.550 --> 19:39.130]  I don't know.
[19:39.930 --> 19:45.910]  It's a scary world we live in, but that's where it stands at this particular point in time.
[19:46.070 --> 19:46.690]  But it was interesting.
[19:46.810 --> 19:48.650]  You guys notice anything else interesting coming into the country?
[19:50.110 --> 19:52.030]  Any other security things?
[19:52.170 --> 19:54.050]  I have to say, security at Heathrow wasn't very good.
[19:54.190 --> 19:57.910]  I flew out of Heathrow, and, of course, that's where all the commotion is happening these days.
[19:57.970 --> 19:59.430]  That's where they're canceling flights left and right.
[20:00.550 --> 20:03.770]  They led us through one security checkpoint, which was fine.
[20:04.070 --> 20:12.370]  And then they have all these restaurants and sushi bars and things on the inside where they have sharp objects that you could easily get into the airplane at that point.
[20:12.390 --> 20:13.030]  So, I don't know.
[20:13.070 --> 20:13.910]  I don't know what they're trying to prove.
[20:15.170 --> 20:16.930]  It was kind of interesting.
[20:17.250 --> 20:19.170]  As long as you didn't have a bomb in your shoe here.
[20:19.470 --> 20:20.350]  And that's another thing.
[20:20.450 --> 20:24.350]  You know, you notice this in the United States side when you're getting on, prohibited items.
[20:24.350 --> 20:25.930]  And one of the prohibited items is a bomb.
[20:26.270 --> 20:28.410]  A little circle with a fuse.
[20:28.870 --> 20:30.070]  Don't bring this on board.
[20:30.750 --> 20:32.810]  As if you'd be carrying that in the first place.
[20:33.610 --> 20:37.490]  You know, then I was going to care about the sign if you were carrying it.
[20:38.110 --> 20:39.650]  I mean, isn't that a joke about a bomb?
[20:39.890 --> 20:40.910]  That's what it sounds like.
[20:41.310 --> 20:45.510]  There was a flight that was canceled or a flight that was held back for a few hours recently.
[20:45.830 --> 20:49.310]  Just think just yesterday, a woman boarded the plane and all kinds of...
[20:49.310 --> 20:51.410]  or went through security and all kinds of alarms went off.
[20:51.590 --> 20:53.090]  She thought she had a bomb in her coat.
[20:53.090 --> 20:57.590]  So, she had one of these electric coats, you know, like you can buy these electric socks that heat up.
[20:57.830 --> 21:04.270]  She had a coat that had wires running through it and the plane was delayed for several hours as they had to examine his coat.
[21:04.610 --> 21:06.650]  That was the motorcycle jacket, right?
[21:07.170 --> 21:09.570]  I don't know if it was a motorcycle jacket, but it was electrically heated.
[21:09.670 --> 21:10.630]  It might have been a motorcycle jacket.
[21:10.650 --> 21:11.810]  Those are commercially made.
[21:11.810 --> 21:15.290]  You actually plug it right into the motorcycle so you can stay warm while you're riding.
[21:15.930 --> 21:16.830]  That's probably what it was.
[21:16.950 --> 21:18.310]  And she wanted to wear this on a plane?
[21:19.250 --> 21:20.790]  Well, it was just her normal jacket.
[21:20.930 --> 21:21.370]  I guess.
[21:21.510 --> 21:22.110]  Okay, well...
[21:22.110 --> 21:23.710]  Maybe she'll plug it in in the plane, too.
[21:24.770 --> 21:26.050]  Well, that's kind of interesting.
[21:26.510 --> 21:30.950]  Okay, so that's it as far as airline travel and security and things like that.
[21:31.010 --> 21:34.170]  But it is kind of funny and weird and stressful for a lot of people.
[21:34.310 --> 21:35.190]  We like to hear stories.
[21:35.350 --> 21:40.790]  And you can mail us othat2600.com Let us know what's going on on your end.
[21:41.110 --> 21:42.610]  I lost my phone over in Europe.
[21:42.810 --> 21:44.650]  Yes, my GSM phone is history.
[21:45.350 --> 21:48.750]  It fell out of my pocket at some point over there in Amsterdam.
[21:49.250 --> 21:50.790]  Sorry, we didn't see it on the tram.
[21:50.790 --> 21:51.990]  Didn't make sure to look, though.
[21:52.270 --> 21:53.330]  Well, you wouldn't have seen another tram.
[21:53.490 --> 21:57.270]  I found out, of course, that I expect this would happen.
[21:57.530 --> 22:00.890]  It probably didn't hit the ground before somebody grabbed it.
[22:00.990 --> 22:06.390]  And I looked at my T-Mobile online statement and sure enough, there were calls made on it after I lost it.
[22:06.470 --> 22:14.350]  And I contacted some of my friends over in Amsterdam to see maybe they could call those numbers and find out if they could social engineer the person to give the phone back.
[22:14.350 --> 22:21.770]  It turns out all the phone numbers called are sex lines that have premium charges attached to them.
[22:21.790 --> 22:23.650]  And I've got to tell you right now, I'm not paying for that.
[22:23.790 --> 22:25.110]  I am not paying those charges.
[22:25.110 --> 22:28.030]  And I'll tell you why I'm not paying those charges because I tried.
[22:28.110 --> 22:30.470]  I tried to turn my phone off from over there.
[22:30.630 --> 22:32.230]  I connected to the T-Mobile website.
[22:32.270 --> 22:34.770]  I even had a friend of mine from here call them.
[22:35.170 --> 22:36.830]  Do you know what they say if you lose your phone?
[22:37.330 --> 22:38.270]  Do you know what they say to do?
[22:38.910 --> 22:44.750]  They say if you lose your phone call 1-800-937-8997 to report the lost phone.
[22:44.950 --> 22:45.830]  Call it immediately.
[22:46.670 --> 22:52.670]  Well, when you're in the Netherlands you can't call 1-800-937-8997.
[22:52.710 --> 22:54.150]  You can't do that at all.
[22:54.410 --> 22:56.910]  And there's no means to report this on the website.
[22:57.710 --> 23:14.170]  And they wouldn't tell my friend here in the United States how I could call them in the Netherlands unless he gave them my social security number to prove that it was really somebody that was authorized to have that information as if that's information that they have to prove to give out in the first place.
[23:14.270 --> 23:21.150]  So I wasn't able to report my phone as lost or stolen therefore those calls were made and I'm not responsible for them.
[23:21.350 --> 23:22.690]  There's going to be a big fight about this.
[23:22.910 --> 23:47.030]  But something else too if you go to their website and I'm sure if I looked around a lot on their website I could have found numbers in the Netherlands as well but you know we just didn't have all that much time to browse the web looking for phone numbers they say if you lose a phone or a device don't worry T-Mobile will disable any lost device and your data is always safely stored on the service.
[23:47.910 --> 23:49.170]  Now what do they mean by this?
[23:49.230 --> 23:50.730]  How can my data be stored on the service?
[23:50.870 --> 23:55.670]  My data in my SIM card is certainly not stored in their service and my data on my phone is not stored on their service.
[23:55.830 --> 23:57.430]  Bernie do you have any idea what that could mean?
[23:58.110 --> 23:59.350]  It doesn't make any sense.
[23:59.650 --> 24:00.710]  Makes no sense at all.
[24:01.750 --> 24:04.970]  I'm going to insist that they give me back my data too and see what they do.
[24:06.010 --> 24:07.750]  You just keep right on insisting.
[24:07.830 --> 24:10.590]  Well I'm going to have a big fight that's going to go on for a very long time.
[24:10.710 --> 24:11.210]  I know that.
[24:11.550 --> 24:13.070]  I'm sure we're going to hear about it too.
[24:13.690 --> 24:14.010]  Yeah.
[24:14.690 --> 24:16.570]  So yeah I'm in the market for a new phone now.
[24:16.670 --> 24:25.310]  In fact I think I've picked out a good phone that I'm going to get but first we have to settle this issue and I have to get a new SIM that has the same phone number it's going to be a lot of fun.
[24:27.490 --> 24:30.510]  So yeah that's a deal with my GSM phone.
[24:30.610 --> 24:34.910]  My other phone, my Spring PCS phone, my, look at this, it's broken again.
[24:35.270 --> 24:36.630]  It has the two bars on the screen.
[24:37.870 --> 24:40.090]  Aren't you due for switching over any minute now?
[24:40.790 --> 24:41.370]  I'm sorry?
[24:41.810 --> 24:48.390]  Aren't you due to Yeah, my contract expires on January 10th which is only a couple days away.
[24:48.470 --> 24:49.790]  On January 11th, I'm going to give it a day.
[24:50.030 --> 24:52.090]  January 11th, I am going to a new company.
[24:53.510 --> 24:57.070]  And I think, you know, I was looking, doing some research into this.
[24:57.190 --> 25:03.270]  Consumer Reports has a new guide out on various wireless phone carriers.
[25:03.750 --> 25:06.570]  And right now I'm sort of leaning towards Verizon Wireless.
[25:07.370 --> 25:09.030]  Yeah, I know, it's a big step.
[25:09.510 --> 25:12.190]  So I'd like to know if people out there have had experience with this.
[25:12.250 --> 25:14.490]  And of course I'll be sharing my experiences with them.
[25:14.750 --> 25:19.830]  But the important thing is to just get away from this crappy service that I have with Sprint PCS.
[25:20.070 --> 25:20.750]  The phone too.
[25:20.930 --> 25:21.910]  Yeah, you have Verizon Wireless.
[25:22.090 --> 25:22.730]  I have Verizon.
[25:22.790 --> 25:23.630]  Well, tell us all about it.
[25:25.430 --> 25:28.670]  Don't, don't, if you need your messages immediately, it's not good.
[25:28.850 --> 25:31.410]  I've gotten messages literally days later.
[25:31.530 --> 25:32.290]  Okay, all right.
[25:32.450 --> 25:32.770]  Days.
[25:33.830 --> 25:35.350]  We've had that with Sprint, haven't we, Bernie?
[25:36.170 --> 25:36.510]  Occasionally.
[25:36.610 --> 25:39.890]  It used to be chronic and it's less of a problem now, but it happens occasionally.
[25:40.270 --> 25:40.490]  Okay.
[25:40.870 --> 25:41.430]  Anything else?
[25:42.850 --> 25:46.750]  They have good service, but, well, I mean, I got my phone a couple of years ago.
[25:51.250 --> 25:52.130]  I didn't even know.
[25:52.290 --> 25:54.410]  Jeff, you don't have...
[25:54.410 --> 25:55.190]  No, I've got singular.
[25:55.550 --> 25:55.770]  Okay.
[25:56.130 --> 25:56.790]  I'm surrounded.
[25:57.330 --> 25:57.630]  All right.
[25:58.870 --> 26:03.690]  But, I mean, it's got good coverage, but that's about it.
[26:03.710 --> 26:05.850]  Coverage is kind of important on a wireless phone.
[26:05.990 --> 26:09.350]  And to be honest, I have noticed since I've had the phone, the coverage has gotten better.
[26:10.030 --> 26:12.750]  I was not able to use the phone in my house.
[26:12.850 --> 26:13.570]  I had to go outside.
[26:13.990 --> 26:16.250]  Well, you know, that makes sense because they're building towers.
[26:16.450 --> 26:16.890]  It should get there.
[26:17.550 --> 26:18.870]  Sprint dismantling towers?
[26:18.870 --> 26:19.690]  What's going on with them?
[26:19.730 --> 26:20.350]  What's their excuse?
[26:21.550 --> 26:24.070]  They're not building towers and they're selling more and more phones.
[26:24.250 --> 26:24.850]  I guess that's it.
[26:25.090 --> 26:29.990]  Well, no, I mean, it's got good coverage, but it's more expensive than others and only works in the U.S.
[26:31.110 --> 26:32.870]  Those are my two problems with it.
[26:33.010 --> 26:33.190]  Yeah.
[26:33.590 --> 26:39.690]  And as we mentioned last week, Verizon Wireless has just figured out how to send messages to Vodafone overseas, which I guess is a good thing.
[26:39.830 --> 26:43.910]  Even though, Mike, I was able to send messages to you, no problem, on Sprint PCS from overseas.
[26:44.250 --> 26:45.590]  That's apparently not possible.
[26:46.090 --> 26:47.630]  Well, it's difficult.
[26:47.790 --> 26:49.310]  It's difficult to get the information.
[26:50.650 --> 26:56.810]  Okay, so that's the update as far as that goes and our little phone educational sojourns are continuing.
[26:57.290 --> 27:07.130]  Now, Bernie, you have some rather disturbing information concerning someone who was, I guess, a caller to this radio program only a couple of weeks ago.
[27:07.230 --> 27:08.110]  You want to tell us what's going on?
[27:08.630 --> 27:17.890]  Apparently, one of our callers, who's by the name Stormbringer, was under federal government electronic surveillance while he called into the show.
[27:19.970 --> 27:23.630]  Stormbringer, who called in, I believe, on our Christmas Eve show, wasn't it?
[27:25.230 --> 27:29.650]  Although this incident report that he mailed me a copy of seems to have a couple of errors in it.
[27:31.370 --> 27:35.730]  Stormbringer's in federal prison right now, and he's probably the best radio hacker I know.
[27:37.050 --> 27:42.050]  And he called into the show Christmas Eve, I think, and New Year's Eve also, or a couple weeks ago.
[27:42.190 --> 27:44.670]  It was actually before Christmas Eve he called in.
[27:45.010 --> 27:46.670]  Okay, the week before that perhaps?
[27:46.750 --> 27:47.150]  The week before, yeah.
[27:47.330 --> 27:48.490]  Well, he called in twice, I remember.
[27:48.790 --> 27:51.650]  He called in to ask a question of Ropp.
[27:51.890 --> 27:54.810]  That was on Christmas Eve because we were all sitting in Amsterdam.
[27:55.330 --> 27:59.390]  And I remember it was so cool because we had so many people on the phone at the same time.
[28:00.030 --> 28:07.030]  and he called in to the radio station and was asking Ropp a question about the crypto phone.
[28:07.310 --> 28:07.710]  Right.
[28:07.870 --> 28:12.070]  And it was just so cool to have all these people being able to share ideas and communicate.
[28:12.690 --> 28:14.510]  And he had called once before that as well.
[28:15.150 --> 28:22.450]  Well, apparently the federal Bureau of Prisons did not take kindly to his calling into the show.
[28:22.450 --> 28:28.050]  And I have an incident report from the Department of Justice that Stormbringer somehow got to me.
[28:28.270 --> 28:36.610]  And there's a short paragraph here I can read on the air describing what they found when they used electronic surveillance against Stormbringer.
[28:37.330 --> 28:38.290]  Please, go ahead.
[28:38.410 --> 28:39.130]  Okay, here it goes.
[28:39.270 --> 28:43.610]  A description of incident date December 29th, 03, time 10 a.m.
[28:43.770 --> 28:45.570]  when staff became aware of incident.
[28:46.030 --> 28:55.870]  On December 29th, 2003, while monitoring inmate phone calls, I monitored a call placed by inmate Smith, number 44684-083.
[28:56.730 --> 29:02.630]  Smith placed the call on December 17th, 2003, at 747 p.m.
[29:02.630 --> 29:12.270]  to telephone number 212-209-2900, listed as a friend named Emanuel Goldstein, which was learned to be a radio talk show host.
[29:13.290 --> 29:27.910]  Inmate Smith gave a phone interview with Mr. Goldstein, which gave details of his incarceration, his website address, his address in which listeners were to respond to him with the address of FCI Cumberland, which is the federal prison where he's located.
[29:28.670 --> 29:43.830]  Once inmate Smith gave this information, a third-party caller who was also on the line at the same time identified himself as Bernie and gave a registry number, a BOP registry number, of 48616-066.
[29:44.750 --> 29:46.770]  Actually, I was mistaken about that when I gave it.
[29:46.930 --> 29:47.490]  I was close.
[29:47.490 --> 29:48.670]  You gave the wrong number?
[29:48.890 --> 29:50.930]  I own an apology to someone.
[29:51.030 --> 29:51.750]  I'll read on further.
[29:52.150 --> 29:59.270]  The BOP registered number was traced to a former Fairton FCI inmate by the name of Ronald Jones.
[29:59.430 --> 29:59.930]  Oh, no.
[30:00.470 --> 30:01.210]  Poor Ronald.
[30:01.490 --> 30:02.170]  Wait a minute.
[30:02.250 --> 30:04.790]  You gave the wrong number and they went and they traced it to the other...
[30:04.790 --> 30:07.010]  I'm slightly dyslexic, Emanuel.
[30:07.690 --> 30:17.990]  My Bureau of Prisons, Federal Bureau of Prisons inmate number is 48919-066 for you electronics eavesdroppers out there, not 48616.
[30:17.990 --> 30:21.490]  So I owe a big apology to Ronald Jones, whoever he may be.
[30:21.510 --> 30:24.550]  Is he still in FCI Fairton or is he out looking for you?
[30:24.730 --> 30:29.810]  I went on to BOP.gov, which is the Bureau of Prisons website.
[30:29.890 --> 30:32.490]  They have an inmate locator on that website.
[30:32.910 --> 30:36.270]  And I looked myself up to find out what my number was after I read this.
[30:36.370 --> 30:37.410]  It's like, I thought that was my number.
[30:37.990 --> 30:39.970]  And it's actually 48919.
[30:40.490 --> 30:42.650]  Six of the nines are upside down and that's how I...
[30:43.170 --> 30:44.490]  That's how my brain works.
[30:44.590 --> 30:45.690]  It's upside down half the time.
[30:45.870 --> 30:49.630]  And I also looked up Ronald Jones and he is 48616-066.
[30:49.870 --> 30:57.690]  He's a 49-year-old black male and he was released a while ago so he's no longer under there.
[30:57.810 --> 31:01.130]  Maybe he's still under federal supervision.
[31:01.130 --> 31:01.790]  I don't know.
[31:01.910 --> 31:03.970]  But apology to Ronald Jones if you're listening.
[31:04.570 --> 31:07.530]  I did not mean to give you your prisoner number out and get you in any trouble.
[31:07.730 --> 31:09.990]  And talk about it for all this amount of time today, too.
[31:10.390 --> 31:11.390]  So let's move on.
[31:13.170 --> 31:20.790]  So, anyway, this is in violation of Bureau of Prisons Code Number 297, 299, and 327.
[31:20.790 --> 31:23.350]  and one of them is very serious.
[31:23.550 --> 31:31.330]  It says 299 is conduct which disrupts or interferes with the security or orderly running of the institution or the Bureau of Prisons.
[31:31.930 --> 31:35.130]  Conduct must be of the high-severity nature.
[31:35.650 --> 31:40.330]  This charge is to be used only when another charge of high-severity is not applicable.
[31:40.790 --> 31:49.250]  And according to Stormbringer, one of the recommendations is to revoke his telephone privileges for one year.
[31:49.710 --> 31:50.910]  This is insane.
[31:51.310 --> 31:53.050]  You're talking about conduct.
[31:53.150 --> 31:54.130]  What kind of conduct?
[31:54.330 --> 31:56.170]  All he did was call in.
[31:56.390 --> 31:57.490]  What's the conduct?
[31:58.770 --> 32:04.750]  And they also refer to third-party calling.
[32:05.010 --> 32:06.190]  Well, he just called in to the...
[32:06.190 --> 32:09.770]  Apparently referring to me as the third-party caller.
[32:10.230 --> 32:11.930]  Apparently he can't have a conference call.
[32:12.490 --> 32:14.950]  We were the ones having a conference call, not him.
[32:15.010 --> 32:15.690]  Exactly, not him.
[32:15.710 --> 32:18.250]  He had no control over us bringing other people into the conversation.
[32:18.290 --> 32:19.530]  I mean, you could have been in the studio.
[32:19.670 --> 32:20.530]  What difference would it have made?
[32:20.650 --> 32:21.050]  Exactly.
[32:21.370 --> 32:22.730]  Well, they don't seem to care.
[32:23.550 --> 32:28.170]  And it says unauthorized contact with the public and unauthorized contact with the media.
[32:29.510 --> 32:29.910]  Hmm.
[32:31.670 --> 32:32.070]  Well...
[32:32.070 --> 32:34.930]  Is he not allowed to talk to the media?
[32:35.370 --> 32:35.770]  That's...
[32:35.770 --> 32:36.730]  I actually...
[32:36.730 --> 32:39.050]  I got a letter from him, too, which I just got tonight.
[32:40.830 --> 32:47.670]  And he says it is news to me about having to have the warden's approval to do a radio interview or even call a radio station.
[32:47.670 --> 32:57.690]  There is nothing listed in my inmate handbook other than I can mail the media through snail mail and have it sanctioned as legal materials.
[32:58.110 --> 33:03.510]  Even the right to communicate is a protected First Amendment right and in the law books under Jackson versus Goodwin.
[33:04.590 --> 33:05.490]  And he can...
[33:05.490 --> 33:09.170]  Plus a number of other cases he's turning into a lawyer in there like many prisoners do.
[33:09.170 --> 33:14.010]  I plan on fighting this from internally all the way through the court system.
[33:14.270 --> 33:22.150]  The way things went down and the remark by the investigator we don't want people interviewing which might upset people.
[33:22.490 --> 33:23.230]  Oh, no.
[33:23.370 --> 33:28.150]  We don't want militia people showing up at the front gate raising hell.
[33:28.610 --> 33:52.950]  Now, he mentioned the word militia and that according to Stormbringer tells him the ATF might be behind this as they think I'm in a militia maybe the switch militia the freak militia maybe even the 2600 militia the investigator they were searching my cell was the same one who had something to do with my incoming legal documentation being confiscated a few months back all this may be coincidence
[33:52.950 --> 34:04.310]  but the whole picture looks as if they are trying to keep me from fighting my case and that certainly is something I'm sure you can identify Oh, that seems to be a standard operating procedure for high-profile prisoners.
[34:05.290 --> 34:07.450]  I find this case to be unbelievable.
[34:07.550 --> 34:19.030]  I know a lot of people would have problems because the actual charges are not related to hacking or the kinds of things that we usually cover has to do with weapons possession.
[34:19.030 --> 34:26.450]  But, you know, it's such a bogus charge what they seem to have gotten him on to give this guy... how many months in prison, Bernie?
[34:27.630 --> 34:28.670]  260, I believe.
[34:28.810 --> 34:34.350]  260 months in prison because there were weapons in his house that didn't even belong to him.
[34:34.810 --> 34:35.730]  Wasn't even his house.
[34:35.890 --> 34:36.670]  Wasn't even his house.
[34:36.810 --> 34:39.870]  So it's... you know, you might think that this is a violation.
[34:40.030 --> 34:41.230]  Maybe it is some sort of a violation.
[34:41.230 --> 34:44.910]  But that kind of a sentence, it seems like they're getting him for something else.
[34:45.150 --> 34:46.850]  Something that they couldn't get him on the first time.
[34:47.850 --> 34:52.970]  And they... this country pretty much tolerates weapons possession of all kinds of maniacs.
[34:53.070 --> 34:56.310]  So I just somehow don't think that that's what they're throwing the book at him for.
[34:56.450 --> 34:58.730]  And I know Wes Stormbringer, and he's not a maniac.
[34:59.270 --> 35:03.210]  He's a lot of things, but he's not... he's not someone who's... who's prone to violence.
[35:03.510 --> 35:03.730]  Mm-hmm.
[35:03.970 --> 35:08.370]  And I went to his website, and right there, right on the front page, he's even got a link to a Bible.
[35:09.790 --> 35:11.810]  Well, I mean, he wouldn't be the first person to link to a Bible.
[35:12.050 --> 35:14.050]  No, I wouldn't be a maniac if he was a maniac, but...
[35:14.050 --> 35:14.350]  No, no, no.
[35:14.530 --> 35:14.930]  Not that...
[35:14.930 --> 35:16.250]  Plenty of maniacs link to Bibles.
[35:16.490 --> 35:16.650]  That's true.
[35:16.810 --> 35:19.770]  Some might even claim that it's more common than in the general population.
[35:20.970 --> 35:22.470]  Well, in any event, what is his website?
[35:22.890 --> 35:23.210]  It's...
[35:23.810 --> 35:24.130]  www...
[35:24.130 --> 35:28.010]  www.nabestormbringer.tv www.nabestormbringer.tv Why .tv?
[35:29.190 --> 35:31.030]  Maybe www.nabestormbringer.com was taken.
[35:31.270 --> 35:31.650]  Oh, okay.
[35:31.890 --> 35:32.150]  Well...
[35:32.150 --> 35:32.790]  All right.
[35:32.870 --> 35:36.790]  Well, let's keep our fingers crossed that this all works out and that we hear from him again.
[35:37.410 --> 35:41.050]  It just bothers me when we're told that we're not allowed to speak to this person.
[35:41.310 --> 35:42.590]  You know, this person can't call us.
[35:42.650 --> 35:43.770]  It's illegal for him to call us.
[35:43.850 --> 35:44.110]  Why?
[35:44.330 --> 35:45.130]  What did he say?
[35:45.130 --> 35:54.690]  He wrote in his letter to me, Emmanuel, that the Bureau of Prisons blocked the WBI phone number in their phone system, so he can no longer call.
[35:54.870 --> 35:56.310]  Oh, and I guess nobody can call.
[35:57.090 --> 36:06.250]  Well, it wasn't clear whether they blocked... they can block... they blocked it just from him calling that number or for all prisoners in that institution or other institutions.
[36:06.250 --> 36:08.270]  Maybe they have some master do-not-call list.
[36:10.110 --> 36:15.250]  But in any case, it's on one of those do-not-call lists, and he can't call, and maybe other people can't call either.
[36:15.370 --> 36:16.230]  So that would be interesting.
[36:16.630 --> 36:23.310]  If any other Bureau of Prisons inmates are listening, try calling that number, 212-209-2900.
[36:24.050 --> 36:25.390]  Actually, you have to be on the list, though.
[36:25.470 --> 36:28.810]  You have to be on... you have to submit a list of friends and family members.
[36:28.970 --> 36:30.290]  And what's wrong with the list he submitted?
[36:30.390 --> 36:35.350]  He submitted me as a friend, which I am, and someone that I've known for many years.
[36:35.350 --> 36:37.850]  Because there's absolutely nothing wrong with what he did at all.
[36:38.690 --> 36:42.770]  And this is something I think that we need to object to in the strongest terms.
[36:42.970 --> 36:45.610]  Can they only call out, or can we call in?
[36:45.750 --> 36:46.910]  We can never call in.
[36:46.970 --> 36:47.430]  We can never call in.
[36:47.430 --> 36:48.330]  We can never call prisoners.
[36:48.610 --> 36:49.750]  That would be something if we could.
[36:49.890 --> 36:52.830]  I was surprised that he was able to actually call us without it being a collect call.
[36:52.890 --> 36:55.870]  It was able to be a prepaid calling card type of a thing.
[36:56.570 --> 36:57.450]  So that was interesting.
[36:58.050 --> 37:00.010]  But Bernie, how do you think this happened in the first place?
[37:00.430 --> 37:02.510]  Were they actually listening to him live, do you think?
[37:03.510 --> 37:03.830]  No.
[37:04.050 --> 37:04.970]  I have a theory.
[37:05.350 --> 37:11.310]  If you read the complaint, the description of the incident, it says on December 29th, while monitoring inmate phone calls, I monitored a call.
[37:11.610 --> 37:17.070]  So the call apparently took place on November 17th.
[37:17.470 --> 37:22.450]  So they listened to it, what, 12 days after it happened.
[37:23.070 --> 37:28.510]  So somehow they found out that this call took place, or they just randomly go through the tapes.
[37:28.570 --> 37:30.050]  I do know that they're all taped.
[37:30.150 --> 37:31.050]  Or actually, they don't go on tape.
[37:31.050 --> 37:36.790]  They go to some big hard drive at the prison that records all inmate communication through the phone system.
[37:36.930 --> 37:42.910]  And then if there's something later they want to go back and play, they can find out the number that was called and play the whole thing back.
[37:43.170 --> 37:48.770]  I have a theory that someone in law enforcement was listening to WBAI, which we know has happened before.
[37:48.770 --> 37:54.390]  In my case, the Secret Service was listening and tried to strong-arm WBAI and giving up to the tape of the show.
[37:56.330 --> 38:07.050]  But in any case, I think someone in law enforcement heard the show and called the Bureau of Prisons and said, Inmate Smith, number 44684-083, is making an unauthorized call.
[38:07.170 --> 38:08.070]  Check this guy out.
[38:08.310 --> 38:11.190]  And then it took them a few days to figure out how to play it back, and they did.
[38:11.590 --> 38:13.290]  Or they were just playing it back randomly.
[38:13.290 --> 38:14.510]  But I don't think so.
[38:15.930 --> 38:16.170]  Interesting.
[38:17.290 --> 38:18.410]  Do you want to give out his address?
[38:18.570 --> 38:19.990]  Do you have his address so people can send him?
[38:20.650 --> 38:21.750]  I believe so.
[38:22.890 --> 38:23.290]  Oof.
[38:23.570 --> 38:26.070]  Yeah, it's on this letter here.
[38:26.170 --> 38:26.630]  Here we go.
[38:28.830 --> 38:29.230]  Oh.
[38:29.670 --> 38:30.390]  On the envelope.
[38:30.510 --> 38:30.790]  Here we go.
[38:30.950 --> 38:31.030]  Okay.
[38:32.130 --> 38:32.930]  William K.
[38:33.210 --> 38:38.990]  Smith, number 44684-083.
[38:38.990 --> 38:51.110]  It's 44684-083, FCI, Cumberland, Unit A, P.O.
[38:51.130 --> 38:58.870]  Box 1000, Cumberland, Maryland, 21501.
[38:59.030 --> 39:05.210]  And please write him a letter, because from personal experience, that really makes your day.
[39:05.210 --> 39:11.010]  It's a very despairing place to be, and your emotions are magnified about ten times.
[39:11.210 --> 39:13.350]  So getting a letter really makes your day.
[39:14.010 --> 39:15.450]  Yeah, it certainly does.
[39:16.850 --> 39:19.450]  And, I mean, is he going to get in trouble for getting letters now?
[39:19.610 --> 39:20.610]  That's what I have to wonder.
[39:21.730 --> 39:28.570]  Well, all the incoming mail is read, so listeners who are writing, please don't send him any escape plans or anything like that.
[39:29.250 --> 39:31.470]  Yeah, no files and cakes and things like that.
[39:32.570 --> 39:34.910]  It's, you know, you're under surveillance every which way.
[39:35.450 --> 39:41.130]  I mean, when I was there in a federal prison a few years ago, there was a birdhouse out in the recreation yard that had TV cameras in it.
[39:41.550 --> 39:43.570]  So you just can't get away from it.
[39:43.630 --> 39:44.050]  It's everywhere.
[39:45.090 --> 39:45.470]  Unbelievable.
[39:45.690 --> 39:54.970]  212-209-2900 is our phone number as we wake up to the sobering realities of the real world, which unfortunately get weirder every day.
[39:55.790 --> 40:01.690]  If there's anything you want to share with us, any questions or comments, if we're off the hook, that's number to call.
[40:01.790 --> 40:04.190]  212-209-2900.
[40:04.410 --> 40:05.990]  But don't call if you're in prison.
[40:06.170 --> 40:09.570]  Well, no, do call if you're in prison because you need to communicate as well.
[40:09.710 --> 40:11.370]  I mean, I don't see any problem with that.
[40:11.510 --> 40:22.110]  If they're going to get everybody in trouble who calls from prison, then we should make this a massive type of a thing where everybody is getting in trouble at the same time and it becomes an issue as to whether...
[40:22.110 --> 40:24.230]  How many times did I call in from prison, Emanuel?
[40:24.530 --> 40:26.010]  An unlimited number of times, I think.
[40:26.010 --> 40:26.970]  It must have been a hundred times.
[40:27.070 --> 40:27.770]  It was a lot.
[40:28.650 --> 40:29.410]  Not too many.
[40:29.570 --> 40:30.150]  No, it was fine.
[40:30.270 --> 40:34.210]  But, you know, that's how we stayed in touch with what was going on with you.
[40:34.470 --> 40:37.670]  You know, and you would not have been able to get the word out were it not for that.
[40:38.310 --> 40:39.070]  That's very true.
[40:39.390 --> 40:48.970]  So I'm a little curious as to why they're disciplining Stormbringer for doing exactly what I did several years ago repeatedly.
[40:49.950 --> 40:53.930]  It sounds like selective enforcement and who knows.
[40:54.190 --> 40:54.390]  Yeah.
[40:54.530 --> 40:54.650]  All right.
[40:54.730 --> 40:55.310]  Let's take some phone calls.
[40:55.390 --> 40:56.830]  212-209-2900.
[40:57.610 --> 40:58.630]  How about we go over there?
[40:59.370 --> 40:59.870]  And good evening.
[41:00.010 --> 41:00.510]  You're on the air.
[41:01.590 --> 41:02.170]  Go ahead.
[41:02.530 --> 41:03.510]  Hey, I've got a question.
[41:03.650 --> 41:04.990]  I donated back around September...
[41:05.590 --> 41:06.270]  Excuse me, October.
[41:06.530 --> 41:06.790]  Uh-huh.
[41:06.910 --> 41:10.090]  The $125 premium.
[41:10.370 --> 41:11.690]  And you haven't gotten anything yet, right?
[41:11.950 --> 41:12.510]  You're correct.
[41:12.690 --> 41:12.810]  Okay.
[41:12.950 --> 41:13.690]  That's our fault.
[41:13.810 --> 41:18.410]  We have to deliver the materials to WBAI, which I just got back.
[41:18.410 --> 41:21.170]  Heck, I'm probably going to do it myself later this week.
[41:21.550 --> 41:21.910]  Okay.
[41:22.010 --> 41:26.030]  So once that happens, it should be sent out soon after that.
[41:26.210 --> 41:30.030]  And if you don't get something in the next few weeks, definitely send me an email.
[41:30.410 --> 41:30.750]  Okay.
[41:30.990 --> 41:31.250]  All right?
[41:31.430 --> 41:31.850]  Thanks a lot.
[41:31.910 --> 41:32.270]  Love the show.
[41:32.430 --> 41:32.670]  Thanks.
[41:32.910 --> 41:33.050]  Bye.
[41:33.550 --> 41:36.290]  And I guess that serves anybody who did donate during that period.
[41:36.450 --> 41:37.610]  We always get to people.
[41:37.750 --> 41:38.950]  It just sometimes takes a little while.
[41:39.390 --> 41:41.830]  It's just our nature, I guess.
[41:41.950 --> 41:44.190]  But we do appreciate everybody supporting the show.
[41:44.970 --> 41:45.730]  Let's go over here.
[41:46.150 --> 41:46.730]  Good evening.
[41:46.990 --> 41:47.410]  Good evening.
[41:47.470 --> 41:47.930]  You're on the air.
[41:48.410 --> 41:49.490]  I'm doing exactly what I'm doing.
[41:49.490 --> 41:49.970]  Go ahead.
[41:50.730 --> 41:51.070]  Hello?
[41:51.350 --> 41:51.870]  Yes, you're on.
[41:52.210 --> 41:52.810]  Hey, great.
[41:54.350 --> 41:56.450]  I'm calling from Seattle, so I'm a little bit...
[41:56.950 --> 41:59.310]  I'm listening on the stream, so I'm out of sync here.
[41:59.470 --> 41:59.650]  Okay.
[41:59.710 --> 42:00.810]  Well, don't listen to them while you're talking.
[42:00.950 --> 42:01.870]  Otherwise, you'll get probably confused.
[42:01.870 --> 42:01.930]  Yeah, all right.
[42:01.970 --> 42:03.690]  I'm kind of getting away from the radio here.
[42:04.030 --> 42:04.270]  Yeah.
[42:04.270 --> 42:06.970]  Hey, I've got...
[42:06.970 --> 42:20.610]  I changed my telephone number from the Sprint service to AT&T Wireless, and I made that request back in November 25th.
[42:20.710 --> 42:22.990]  Wait, did you change your phone number or just your service?
[42:23.150 --> 42:24.150]  Sorry, I've changed...
[42:24.150 --> 42:28.770]  I took my number from Sprint to AT&T.
[42:29.430 --> 42:30.210]  Yeah, sorry.
[42:31.150 --> 42:31.550]  And...
[42:31.550 --> 42:32.810]  You could do that back in November?
[42:33.430 --> 42:34.990]  Yeah, November 25th.
[42:35.090 --> 42:35.790]  That's when it started.
[42:36.050 --> 42:36.450]  That's when it started.
[42:36.650 --> 42:37.130]  That's when it was.
[42:37.270 --> 42:38.270]  You were one of the first people.
[42:38.270 --> 42:43.330]  Because I got this really nice, sort of, what do they call it, GPS phone?
[42:43.850 --> 42:44.330]  GPRS.
[42:44.610 --> 42:45.110]  Yeah, yeah.
[42:45.250 --> 42:48.510]  And it basically, the Sprint system doesn't support that kind of phone.
[42:48.790 --> 42:49.090]  Okay.
[42:49.570 --> 43:01.990]  But anyway, so I have the Sprint phone, and I still get my calls in on Sprint, and Sprint and AT&T are not talking.
[43:02.250 --> 43:03.270]  I mean, I have been...
[43:03.270 --> 43:06.850]  I'm on the phone every day with these guys, and it's like a two-hour wait.
[43:07.010 --> 43:08.110]  You're like a marriage counselor.
[43:08.270 --> 43:08.510]  I know.
[43:08.870 --> 43:10.350]  They've been having trouble for years.
[43:10.630 --> 43:11.390]  They don't speak to each other.
[43:11.710 --> 43:11.950]  I mean, it's like...
[43:11.950 --> 43:12.170]  Yeah.
[43:12.710 --> 43:17.830]  And I mean, to this date, I am still getting my calls in on the Sprint phone.
[43:17.990 --> 43:23.130]  I could use the AT&T phone, which I'm using right now, because they told me...
[43:23.130 --> 43:23.470]  Wait a minute.
[43:23.470 --> 43:26.170]  ...that they're not going to charge me until they get the whole service.
[43:26.310 --> 43:27.250]  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[43:27.330 --> 43:36.350]  You mean you can make calls on your AT&T phone, and your phone number shows up as caller ID, but if you call that number, it goes to the Sprint phone?
[43:36.530 --> 43:36.890]  Yeah.
[43:37.350 --> 43:37.770]  Weird.
[43:37.770 --> 43:38.910]  That is weird.
[43:39.670 --> 43:39.930]  Yeah.
[43:40.150 --> 43:40.890]  Oh, my goodness.
[43:40.910 --> 43:41.830]  What's going on here?
[43:41.970 --> 43:43.110]  What happens if you call yourself?
[43:43.330 --> 43:43.510]  Yeah.
[43:43.610 --> 43:45.010]  Can you call yourself from the other phone?
[43:45.350 --> 43:46.410]  Well, I haven't tried that.
[43:46.590 --> 43:47.130]  You haven't tried?
[43:47.210 --> 43:48.010]  You have to try that.
[43:48.490 --> 43:49.930]  It's the first thing I try.
[43:50.910 --> 43:53.950]  Firstly, honestly, I'm just a rookie out here.
[43:53.950 --> 44:03.550]  But I just want to let people know that it's just, if they're doing something like that, it's an absolute nightmare to, I know some people might have it better than others.
[44:03.690 --> 44:09.950]  Well, I'm going to be one of those people as of next week when I dump Sprint, and I've said it publicly, I will dump them on Sunday.
[44:10.930 --> 44:12.950]  Should I switch to AT&T just for the fun of it?
[44:13.070 --> 44:13.490]  Find out what happens.
[44:14.010 --> 44:14.730]  Well, you know.
[44:14.810 --> 44:19.850]  You know, if you want to torture yourself, but they have what they call a port administrator.
[44:20.710 --> 44:21.750]  A port administrator.
[44:22.030 --> 44:23.310]  Yeah, a port administrator.
[44:23.730 --> 44:25.730]  If you do it, you'll get to know that real well.
[44:25.730 --> 44:28.570]  And you usually get somebody in India, I think, you know.
[44:28.690 --> 44:29.270]  Right, of course.
[44:29.370 --> 44:32.850]  That just cares less about, you know, your plight.
[44:33.050 --> 44:38.790]  And you just can't believe what it's, you know, what kind of hassle it's become.
[44:38.830 --> 44:48.230]  But I guess the only upside is the AT&T people have told me that they're not going to bill me until I get, you know, the full service.
[44:48.470 --> 44:49.250]  So, you know.
[44:49.970 --> 44:52.630]  I'm making this call on their nickel, so...
[44:52.630 --> 44:56.390]  I have a suggestion if you want to feel better then, just to help your frustration.
[44:56.690 --> 44:59.430]  Go ahead and call yourself and leave the phones open.
[45:00.490 --> 45:01.930]  Just let me go all the time.
[45:02.290 --> 45:02.530]  Wow.
[45:03.210 --> 45:08.790]  Well, anyway, I just wanted to let people know that it's been a tough go for me.
[45:09.250 --> 45:15.070]  And I don't know what it is about it, but they just don't seem to want to talk to one another.
[45:15.150 --> 45:16.710]  Well, you shouldn't have to be the go-between.
[45:16.710 --> 45:19.130]  You should just have to call one company and say, I want you now.
[45:19.250 --> 45:20.010]  You can deal with it.
[45:20.070 --> 45:21.410]  Get me my phone number.
[45:21.570 --> 45:22.350]  Well, that's...
[45:22.350 --> 45:25.530]  Well, that's what I finally started doing.
[45:26.150 --> 45:29.670]  And I talked to the people at the AT&T wireless store.
[45:30.030 --> 45:34.730]  And the guy was going, well, you know, you're going to have to start calling them because they call them every day, you know.
[45:34.850 --> 45:38.230]  I haven't gotten to the point where I'm calling them twice a day, but I'm just about there.
[45:38.670 --> 45:41.610]  And he says, you know, he says, well, I call you.
[45:42.010 --> 45:43.030]  We've given you the port...
[45:43.030 --> 45:46.170]  I said, the port administration number says, well, I've been doing that.
[45:46.230 --> 45:52.970]  I did that for over a month, waiting two hours just to even talk to somebody and hearing, oh, yes, you're going to have your number.
[45:53.230 --> 45:54.190]  You know, we'll just do it.
[45:54.210 --> 45:55.270]  It'll be 12 hours.
[45:55.450 --> 45:59.590]  And you'll, you know, and I never, nobody ever calls me back and it never seems to work.
[46:00.430 --> 46:05.950]  So, you know, so I started calling the store, the people who got me the service and said, oh, yeah, and the phone.
[46:06.350 --> 46:07.710]  Yeah, we can take care of you.
[46:07.850 --> 46:08.610]  And I just...
[46:09.170 --> 46:14.190]  So I call them every day and they're starting to get tired of me for sure.
[46:14.350 --> 46:16.350]  But, you know, what else can a person do?
[46:16.550 --> 46:16.970]  Yeah, yeah.
[46:17.150 --> 46:22.930]  Now, what you described as far as the symptoms where one phone rings, one phone can make the calls, is that consistent?
[46:23.190 --> 46:24.490]  Does it happen that way every time?
[46:25.010 --> 46:25.210]  Yeah.
[46:25.790 --> 46:26.110]  Wow.
[46:26.590 --> 46:29.490]  And can you still make calls on your sprint phone?
[46:29.590 --> 46:31.670]  Yeah, I can call out on the sprint phone.
[46:31.870 --> 46:33.210]  And that shows up at the same number?
[46:33.850 --> 46:34.210]  Yeah.
[46:34.710 --> 46:36.210]  They both show up at the same phone number?
[46:36.550 --> 46:36.910]  Right.
[46:37.090 --> 46:37.350]  Wow.
[46:37.870 --> 46:39.590]  I mean, yeah, I can call out.
[46:39.890 --> 46:42.590]  It's almost worth it just to have this happen, you know, to switch.
[46:42.890 --> 46:44.270]  Can you make two calls at once?
[46:44.550 --> 46:44.910]  Yeah.
[46:45.090 --> 46:46.430]  What happens if you make two calls at once?
[46:46.910 --> 46:47.670]  Well, that's weird.
[46:47.890 --> 46:48.810]  I'll have to try again.
[46:49.510 --> 46:49.970]  All right.
[46:50.150 --> 46:51.870]  You have some work to do.
[46:52.050 --> 46:52.570]  Yeah, I do.
[46:52.570 --> 46:53.350]  We're giving you homework.
[46:53.590 --> 46:54.670]  You can have some fun with it.
[46:54.750 --> 46:55.630]  Yeah, very much.
[46:55.850 --> 46:56.010]  All right.
[46:56.010 --> 46:56.990]  Let us know what happens, okay?
[46:57.410 --> 46:57.770]  Okay.
[46:57.930 --> 46:59.350]  Well, enjoy your show.
[46:59.350 --> 46:59.910]  Thanks a lot.
[47:00.090 --> 47:00.290]  Thanks.
[47:00.630 --> 47:04.790]  And I sure enjoy our listeners because this is something I really...
[47:04.790 --> 47:05.450]  Wow.
[47:05.570 --> 47:07.510]  Portability sounds like more fun than I ever dreamed.
[47:08.250 --> 47:11.290]  Email us your experiences, OTH at 2600.com.
[47:11.410 --> 47:12.250]  We'd certainly like to hear them.
[47:12.750 --> 47:14.530]  Let's go all the way up here now.
[47:14.830 --> 47:15.210]  And what do you think?
[47:15.210 --> 47:16.070]  That's a great alibi.
[47:16.270 --> 47:16.650]  Yes.
[47:16.790 --> 47:25.050]  You know, like if you're under, like, surveillance or something, you could say, well, obviously, I was here, and I couldn't have been over there where I made this...
[47:25.050 --> 47:25.790]  Good evening.
[47:25.850 --> 47:26.290]  You're on the air.
[47:26.670 --> 47:27.210]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[47:27.410 --> 47:27.730]  Go ahead.
[47:28.070 --> 47:28.250]  Hi.
[47:29.030 --> 47:30.150]  I have a couple of questions.
[47:30.470 --> 47:31.690]  I'm calling from Canada again.
[47:31.690 --> 47:32.970]  I called in a couple of weeks ago.
[47:33.110 --> 47:33.590]  Oh, Canada.
[47:33.630 --> 47:33.970]  Yes.
[47:34.930 --> 47:50.050]  Well, since then, I've been in the United States, and I've flown a number of times, but one of my things that I don't understand about the airplanes is, when you fly, why do you turn off all electrical devices when they're taking off and landing?
[47:50.570 --> 47:51.470]  Well, that was interesting.
[47:51.630 --> 47:56.970]  You know, yesterday, in fact, when we were taking off, they said, please turn your cell phones off because we're refueling.
[47:57.170 --> 48:05.130]  And it reminded me of the signs they put up in gas stations where they say, don't use your cellular phone in the gas station because, I guess, a spark or something could cause all kinds of problems.
[48:05.290 --> 48:06.530]  Bernie, does this make any sense to you?
[48:07.430 --> 48:07.790]  Ludicrous.
[48:08.090 --> 48:08.410]  Uh-huh.
[48:08.410 --> 48:25.390]  Um, the ostensible reason for this is the avionics equipment on board the aircraft, the navigational equipment and communications equipment, um, ostensibly being interfered with by stray signals coming out of electronic devices known as harmonics.
[48:25.950 --> 48:36.950]  Um, but as far as cell phones use, there has never, ever been any documented case of a cell phone causing, um, interference to avionics on a plane.
[48:36.950 --> 48:40.150]  And they've done all kinds of studies, and they haven't proven it.
[48:40.290 --> 48:45.430]  I believe that it's a way to keep people, uh, using the expensive airplane phones.
[48:46.210 --> 48:51.030]  You know, the time I called into the show, it was like a $300 call from the North, the North Atlantic.
[48:51.250 --> 48:51.590]  Yes.
[48:51.990 --> 48:55.710]  Um, I think they wanted people to use them instead of their cell phones, is what I think.
[48:55.830 --> 49:00.150]  Of course, your cell phone, once you get above a certain altitude, your cell phone won't work anymore because you're too far away from the system.
[49:00.150 --> 49:03.730]  But, um, there's never been any proof that this is a problem.
[49:03.910 --> 49:06.830]  It's just sort of a, like, well, it could be a problem, so let's just ban them.
[49:07.410 --> 49:09.870]  And that's the one thing you can't turn on during the flight.
[49:10.010 --> 49:15.130]  Everything else, laptops, et cetera, you can, you can, uh, turn on while you're flying.
[49:15.130 --> 49:18.010]  Can you use a wireless network with a few laptops on an airplane?
[49:18.230 --> 49:19.530]  They don't allow anything with an antenna.
[49:19.630 --> 49:19.930]  But yes.
[49:20.730 --> 49:21.090]  Theoretically...
[49:21.090 --> 49:21.390]  Uh-huh.
[49:21.630 --> 49:24.590]  But sometimes, some laptops just do that by default, don't they?
[49:24.930 --> 49:27.790]  One of my students did it with, with another passenger on the plane.
[49:27.790 --> 49:29.890]  Did that other passenger know he was doing it?
[49:29.930 --> 49:30.230]  Yes, yes.
[49:30.330 --> 49:34.090]  It was worked out ahead of time, and they, uh, they were sharing files and things, and it was great.
[49:34.350 --> 49:34.770]  They had a ball.
[49:35.650 --> 49:35.870]  Wow.
[49:36.230 --> 49:37.030]  That's good to know.
[49:38.170 --> 49:39.210]  But, I mean, theoretically...
[49:39.210 --> 49:44.750]  I think they only do it, I think they only put that, say, you can't do that during, uh, takeoff and landing.
[49:44.910 --> 49:49.130]  Once you're in flight, I don't think, I don't think the flight crew generally has a problem with that.
[49:49.270 --> 49:54.450]  And if the, it used to be that if the pilot gave you permission, you could use whatever you wanted whenever.
[49:54.450 --> 50:01.990]  But now that the pilots are locked behind a barricaded door, um, I guess they're not going to come out and say, yeah, you can use your, your whatever now.
[50:02.250 --> 50:10.330]  Well, the flight crew might not have a problem with it, but I do remember when we were on the plane, uh, they did say anything with an antenna you can't use throughout the duration of the flight.
[50:11.330 --> 50:15.790]  So, they had radios and cell phones, things like that.
[50:15.950 --> 50:19.610]  Uh, but most of these people are probably not trained in antenna detection.
[50:19.950 --> 50:20.350]  Right.
[50:21.350 --> 50:22.690]  All right, any other questions, caller?
[50:23.090 --> 50:24.710]  Uh, well, one more question.
[50:24.870 --> 50:24.990]  Yes.
[50:25.390 --> 50:31.450]  It's a bit random, but a little while ago, um, on one of your shows, you were talking about how your voice got onto Vice City.
[50:32.150 --> 50:33.630]  Oh, boy, yes, Vice City.
[50:33.810 --> 50:36.930]  Do you know, uh, where on that, or which character, or...
[50:36.930 --> 50:41.090]  All I know is, because I, I haven't played the game myself, because I don't have a PlayStation.
[50:41.650 --> 50:41.970]  Right.
[50:42.130 --> 50:45.390]  Even, even on the airplane I was going back on, I was just supposed to have PlayStations.
[50:45.510 --> 50:46.110]  Mine was broken.
[50:46.530 --> 50:47.990]  So, I wasn't even able to play things there.
[50:48.590 --> 50:49.170]  Uh, I...
[50:49.170 --> 50:50.250]  Red Hecht, do you know where it is exactly?
[50:50.390 --> 50:50.870]  Yes, I've heard it.
[50:50.870 --> 50:53.830]  Um, I don't, I thought it was the original one, not Vice City.
[50:53.910 --> 50:54.650]  I could be wrong, though.
[50:54.810 --> 50:55.970]  No, it's, it's, it's the latest one.
[50:56.030 --> 50:56.570]  Is it Vice City?
[50:56.690 --> 50:56.750]  Yeah.
[50:56.750 --> 50:56.850]  Okay.
[50:57.330 --> 51:00.490]  Uh, it, it's one of the, um, it's the talk radio show, I think.
[51:00.610 --> 51:00.790]  Uh-huh.
[51:00.890 --> 51:02.230]  And you're a caller on it.
[51:02.410 --> 51:02.650]  Yeah.
[51:02.790 --> 51:03.870]  You call into the show.
[51:04.090 --> 51:05.630]  Now, Bernie's on the one before that.
[51:05.750 --> 51:07.070]  Bernie's on the previous version, right, Bernie?
[51:07.310 --> 51:09.010]  It's, uh, Grand Theft Auto 3.
[51:09.270 --> 51:09.390]  Yeah.
[51:09.390 --> 51:16.350]  On, on that one, there's a, as you're driving the stolen car around and changing radio stations, there's a call-in show called Chatterbox.
[51:16.570 --> 51:16.730]  Yeah.
[51:16.730 --> 51:19.350]  And I'm one of the irate callers to that show.
[51:19.490 --> 51:23.010]  Now, it's a similar thing with, I haven't seen either of them, because I don't have a video game either.
[51:23.750 --> 51:28.810]  But, uh, with, uh, Grand Theft Auto Vice City, I think you're on the radio, too.
[51:28.950 --> 51:31.010]  How is it you just end up on the radio wherever you go, Emmanuel?
[51:31.150 --> 51:39.310]  I don't know how that happens, but you know what's really crazy is I used to do a radio show called Chatterbox on, uh, on the other radio station, WUSB, many years ago.
[51:39.430 --> 51:43.070]  I might have taped to that someplace, but that's, uh, that's, that's kind of freaky.
[51:43.070 --> 51:49.210]  And we, we all have this, of course, to our good friend, Laszlo, who has, uh, connections everywhere and, uh, was able to make this all work out.
[51:50.450 --> 51:50.730]  So...
[51:50.730 --> 51:51.250]  Well, thank you very much.
[51:51.350 --> 51:51.530]  All right.
[51:51.650 --> 51:52.630]  Thanks, uh, thanks for those questions.
[51:52.990 --> 51:53.170]  All right.
[51:53.950 --> 51:55.930]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[51:56.410 --> 51:57.950]  Uh, so we have time for a few more calls.
[51:58.070 --> 51:58.710]  Let's go to this one.
[51:58.790 --> 51:59.050]  Good evening.
[51:59.110 --> 51:59.510]  You're on the air.
[52:00.390 --> 52:00.950]  Yes, Emmanuel.
[52:01.190 --> 52:01.870]  Oh, look at this.
[52:01.970 --> 52:02.930]  Friendly voice from the past.
[52:03.070 --> 52:05.190]  Well, that's the present, Rebel, so let's make the most of it.
[52:13.070 --> 52:13.390]  Three lines.
[52:13.570 --> 52:14.130]  Just tell us.
[52:14.250 --> 52:16.590]  Okay, just for the record, how many lines do you have ringing at once?
[52:16.930 --> 52:17.830]  Can you tell us that...
[52:17.830 --> 52:18.830]  I'm using my new spring PCS phone.
[52:18.830 --> 52:21.470]  Can you just tell us how many lines you call at the same time?
[52:22.110 --> 52:24.770]  Let this be a new period of open revelation, all right?
[52:24.930 --> 52:25.930]  What, uh...
[52:25.930 --> 52:27.990]  Okay, I'm calling from my spring PCS phone.
[52:28.050 --> 52:28.650]  Now, what is the...
[52:28.650 --> 52:30.150]  No, you're answering the question.
[52:30.290 --> 52:31.390]  You're evading the question.
[52:31.490 --> 52:31.950]  Just tell us.
[52:32.030 --> 52:32.350]  Okay, I just...
[52:32.350 --> 52:33.550]  What is it, 10, 20?
[52:33.790 --> 52:34.230]  Come on.
[52:34.370 --> 52:34.930]  I was on two.
[52:35.010 --> 52:35.770]  I just got rid of one.
[52:35.930 --> 52:36.670]  All right, two.
[52:36.810 --> 52:37.230]  Now, what is this...
[52:37.230 --> 52:38.270]  Does anybody believe two?
[52:43.070 --> 52:46.830]  The spring PCS phones are not GSM-compatible or something?
[52:47.050 --> 52:47.490]  GSMA?
[52:48.330 --> 52:49.210]  No, GPRS.
[52:49.350 --> 52:49.650]  GPRS.
[52:49.690 --> 52:52.190]  Is that the thing with the E911 locator or something?
[52:52.270 --> 52:54.030]  Because I have a chip in mine.
[52:54.230 --> 52:55.510]  Bernie, why don't you take this one?
[52:55.610 --> 52:56.670]  And Rebel, please listen.
[52:56.950 --> 52:57.110]  Okay.
[52:58.350 --> 53:01.810]  GPRS is associated with GSM phones.
[53:01.930 --> 53:05.250]  It's a way of sending data back and forth.
[53:06.030 --> 53:07.350]  And, uh, GS...
[53:07.350 --> 53:08.570]  The GS...
[53:08.570 --> 53:20.170]  Uh, GPS is what you're thinking of, or there's a, uh, sort of a radio receiver in the phone that allows, uh, your phone to know where it is from military navigational satellites.
[53:20.810 --> 53:27.650]  It also allows, when you call E911, when you call 911, ostensibly, if the system works, they're supposed to be able to tell where you're physically located.
[53:27.870 --> 53:31.010]  So, um, they can find you if you're injured or something.
[53:31.150 --> 53:34.410]  But as we all know, that's really just so they can track everybody where they're going.
[53:34.570 --> 53:38.970]  Now, my phone says it has an E911 or a locator or a GPF chip in it.
[53:39.050 --> 53:39.810]  Is this a chip?
[53:40.310 --> 53:40.850]  Yes, it is.
[53:41.150 --> 53:47.790]  Well, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a GPS global positioning system receiver built into a chip that's in your phone.
[53:47.910 --> 53:54.770]  Not all phones have it, but the, the, the, the carriers are required soon to either have the chip in the phone or use triangulation.
[53:54.770 --> 54:00.210]  In any case, they have to report to the 911 center where your phone is within, like, 100 meters or something.
[54:00.330 --> 54:03.990]  Because I have this, you know, this new Sanyo 4500 or 5500.
[54:04.310 --> 54:05.690]  I paid, like, $200 for it.
[54:05.830 --> 54:06.850]  It's one of the newest ones.
[54:06.850 --> 54:09.290]  And it says it's E911 capable.
[54:09.330 --> 54:10.910]  I guess that means it has the chip in it.
[54:10.910 --> 54:13.670]  Well, you can always call 911 and ask them if they can tell them.
[54:13.690 --> 54:14.550]  Well, I'm not, obviously.
[54:14.730 --> 54:17.270]  Let's not suggest that kind of encounter.
[54:17.610 --> 54:18.350]  It is Rebel we're talking to.
[54:18.410 --> 54:21.130]  Yeah, I know, but I'm thinking of the police, okay?
[54:21.130 --> 54:33.050]  The other thing I want to ask is, when you call things, like, if I was to call from here, like an 800-ANI thing, it would say my number is 917-449 in my number.
[54:33.350 --> 54:40.070]  But if I was to call from, like, Michigan or something, it would sometimes say my number is 917-449.
[54:40.150 --> 54:44.270]  But if I call from another part of Michigan or wherever, it would say the number of a cell site.
[54:44.510 --> 54:45.670]  How does that work?
[54:45.670 --> 54:51.690]  Because I noticed that when I call one ANI readback, it says my number is 917-449.
[54:51.830 --> 54:56.750]  And if I call, like, an AT&T operator, it would say the number of, let's say, the cell tower.
[54:56.850 --> 54:57.730]  I think it's vice versa.
[54:59.050 --> 55:07.710]  Like, whenever I call ANI, like, whenever I call somebody with caller ID, it always says my cell phone number, 917-449, no matter where I am.
[55:07.770 --> 55:08.750]  Well, Bernie, do you have an answer for this?
[55:08.770 --> 55:09.410]  Because we have to move on.
[55:09.630 --> 55:11.570]  Well, the cell site doesn't really have a phone number.
[55:11.570 --> 55:17.010]  I would say that's really a problem with the ANI number you're calling.
[55:17.490 --> 55:19.790]  It's really not ANI, it's ANAC, A-N-A-C.
[55:20.090 --> 55:22.510]  But in any case, keep experimenting.
[55:23.130 --> 55:24.610]  Yeah, that's really what you have to do.
[55:24.690 --> 55:25.950]  Let's take one more.
[55:26.310 --> 55:27.270]  And good evening, you're on the air.
[55:27.950 --> 55:29.110]  Oops, not that one, then.
[55:29.470 --> 55:30.050]  How about this one?
[55:30.070 --> 55:30.950]  That was his little line.
[55:31.110 --> 55:31.490]  Yeah, maybe.
[55:31.670 --> 55:32.750]  Good evening, of the three.
[55:32.850 --> 55:35.830]  This is Tammy calling with Digital Satellite Services at 800.
[55:36.210 --> 55:38.250]  All right, you're not going to give that information out.
[55:38.470 --> 55:39.590]  Let's try...
[55:39.590 --> 55:40.370]  No, let's not try that one.
[55:40.370 --> 55:40.830]  Let's try this one.
[55:40.830 --> 55:41.570]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[55:42.630 --> 55:43.310]  Yes, go ahead.
[55:43.910 --> 55:46.110]  Hi, I just wanted to educate you guys a bit.
[55:46.530 --> 55:49.910]  I've been an RF engineer for Boeing for 27 years.
[55:50.050 --> 55:50.390]  Oh, good.
[55:50.530 --> 55:51.230]  Okay, you're just a person.
[55:51.570 --> 55:57.010]  I wanted to explain to you why devices with antenna are not permitted on airplanes.
[55:57.290 --> 56:02.490]  And it has nothing to do with the preferred use of the airline telephones.
[56:02.550 --> 56:04.230]  Okay, you have about 90 seconds, so make it great.
[56:04.270 --> 56:06.590]  Okay, I'll explain it in the simplest way.
[56:06.730 --> 56:13.670]  Do you guys ever remember the famous episode of Gilligan's Island when he gets hit in the head with a coconut and he starts to receive radio signals from his teeth?
[56:14.050 --> 56:15.210]  I remember that one.
[56:15.290 --> 56:16.070]  Yes, I'm old enough.
[56:16.390 --> 56:16.410]  Okay.
[56:16.430 --> 56:17.850]  Well, it's exactly the same idea.
[56:18.690 --> 56:23.930]  All radio instruments give off RF signals which have harmonics, upper and lower harmonics.
[56:23.930 --> 56:43.890]  Any kind of electrical device, be it the simplest wire and cabling system in an airplane, can be caused to vibrate sympathetically in a harmonic mode with anything that's being transmitted and can actually cause a spark to occur or something else to occur or interrupt a signal or interfere with a signal in some sort of way.
[56:44.050 --> 56:45.430]  So it's not nonsense.
[56:45.430 --> 56:46.470]  It's absolutely true.
[56:46.470 --> 56:50.750]  And it's the most basic principle behind radio transmission and radio reception.
[56:51.010 --> 56:53.810]  And it's the idea of sympathetic harmonic.
[56:54.090 --> 56:58.170]  And it's been understood and known about since radio was born.
[56:58.330 --> 56:59.410]  So it's not made up.
[56:59.550 --> 57:01.310]  It's an actual concern.
[57:01.650 --> 57:01.830]  Okay.
[57:02.610 --> 57:04.230]  In practice, is it real?
[57:04.510 --> 57:05.090]  Probably not.
[57:05.250 --> 57:16.770]  With the grounding that all the systems in the airline have and the outside metal shell that the entire fuselage is encased in, it's probably never going to happen.
[57:17.030 --> 57:20.950]  But the fact is that from a physics standpoint, it definitely could happen.
[57:21.110 --> 57:21.310]  Okay.
[57:21.430 --> 57:22.650]  Listen, thanks very much for the information.
[57:23.050 --> 57:23.390]  You're welcome.
[57:23.530 --> 57:23.770]  All right.
[57:23.850 --> 57:24.150]  Take care.
[57:24.330 --> 57:26.310]  And now I know why I can't have coconuts on the plane.
[57:26.390 --> 57:27.070]  Well, that too.
[57:27.570 --> 57:27.930]  All right.
[57:27.970 --> 57:28.990]  That's going to do it for us tonight.
[57:28.990 --> 57:32.910]  And I want to thank that last caller for calling in and schooling us on that particular subject.
[57:33.370 --> 57:42.770]  Oh, that's the theme for the other radio show that resumes next Tuesday night at 6 on WUSB and also on the internet, www.27.com, Off the Wall.
[57:43.330 --> 57:48.650]  And, of course, we'll be back on Off the Hook next week, Wednesday nights at 7 here on WBAI.
[57:49.070 --> 57:56.090]  Coming up next is the Personal Computer Show, another hour of action-packed adventure having to do with technology.
[57:56.090 --> 57:57.030]  So stay tuned.
[57:57.290 --> 57:58.190]  We'll see you next week.
[57:58.290 --> 57:58.450]  Good night.
[58:01.380 --> 58:02.340]  Good night.