[00:00.000 --> 00:06.300]  Zephyr Hill's city manager, Steve Spina, was the only white person at the meeting who spoke for civil rights.
[00:06.640 --> 00:13.220]  He asked the council to examine its actions in the light of history and implored the city council to keep the MLK designation.
[00:13.600 --> 00:18.380]  And there's this elephant in this room that we try to dance around and talk around and walk around.
[00:18.720 --> 00:24.020]  But whether we choose to face it will determine where we go because we have to face it.
[00:24.180 --> 00:25.880]  It's not just Zephyr Hill's problem.
[00:26.060 --> 00:27.420]  It's a national problem.
[00:27.420 --> 00:33.480]  If the street signs and names were only in the black neighborhood, then we would have done nothing.
[00:33.740 --> 00:34.660]  It would have been hollow.
[00:35.560 --> 00:40.780]  Metaphorically, we would be saying, stay in your place and we will stay in our place.
[00:41.220 --> 00:44.500]  Changing the street name will not end this issue.
[00:44.940 --> 00:54.480]  All it will do is shift the anger and frustration from the west side of the railroad tracks back to the east side of the railroad tracks.
[00:54.480 --> 00:59.880]  For Free Speech Radio News, this is Mark Antokas from WMNF in Tampa.
[01:02.340 --> 01:04.260]  This is Free Speech Radio News.
[01:04.500 --> 01:05.460]  I'm Deepa Fernandes.
[01:09.280 --> 01:12.260]  And this is radio station WBAI in New York.
[01:12.460 --> 01:13.340]  It's 7.01.
[01:13.540 --> 01:14.420]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:19.810 --> 01:21.630]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:22.070 --> 01:24.130]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:25.250 --> 01:27.110]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:27.770 --> 01:29.670]  Now I can't make a cough.
[01:30.510 --> 01:32.450]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:33.210 --> 01:35.010]  But if they could, they would.
[01:35.250 --> 01:37.930]  But they live on for the best, expect the worst.
[01:38.650 --> 01:40.410]  I hope that's understood.
[01:40.630 --> 01:41.470]  But they live on!
[02:11.460 --> 02:12.720]  And very good evening to everybody.
[02:12.800 --> 02:13.620]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:13.740 --> 02:14.800]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:14.800 --> 02:18.980]  I'm rather flustered because I had to run in here at the top speed.
[02:20.220 --> 02:24.960]  And Jim, I'm going to hold you responsible because you're the only one with even slight ties to the MTA.
[02:25.420 --> 02:26.440]  They're very slight.
[02:26.700 --> 02:27.360]  Yeah, I know.
[02:27.460 --> 02:28.400]  They ended years ago.
[02:29.420 --> 02:31.480]  That's true, but they existed in the first place.
[02:32.020 --> 02:32.840]  Explain something to me.
[02:32.880 --> 02:35.560]  What does it mean when no bus comes for 35 minutes?
[02:35.620 --> 02:36.900]  You're standing there like an idiot.
[02:37.200 --> 02:39.740]  All these people come and then they go again and they do something else.
[02:39.840 --> 02:40.880]  And no bus comes ever.
[02:41.320 --> 02:42.600]  15 buses going uptown.
[02:42.700 --> 02:43.560]  No buses coming downtown.
[02:43.560 --> 02:44.360]  No explanation.
[02:44.640 --> 02:45.080]  No answers.
[02:45.080 --> 02:49.980]  I would guess at that point that there's something going on on the street, which may or may not be the MTA's fault.
[02:50.160 --> 02:50.780]  Probably not.
[02:51.000 --> 02:52.240]  But you'll never hear about it.
[02:52.340 --> 02:53.380]  You'll never get an apology.
[02:53.640 --> 02:55.880]  How would you possibly hear about it if there are no buses there?
[02:55.880 --> 02:56.680]  In London...
[02:56.680 --> 02:57.260]  If they're rerouting it.
[02:57.260 --> 03:02.800]  In London, every subway station, they write personal apologies on blackboards saying, I'm so sorry that there was an inconvenience.
[03:02.920 --> 03:04.160]  I'm the station manager, blah, blah, blah.
[03:04.200 --> 03:05.320]  They take it very seriously.
[03:05.520 --> 03:06.780]  And here, I'm never going to hear a thing.
[03:06.920 --> 03:10.800]  I had to walk all the way over to 2nd Avenue, catch a bus, which wound up making a U-turn.
[03:11.140 --> 03:14.300]  One of those big buses, those double buses, the guy went the wrong way.
[03:14.620 --> 03:16.200]  He said, sorry, passengers, I went the wrong way.
[03:16.240 --> 03:18.000]  And he makes a big U-turn on Allen Street.
[03:18.140 --> 03:18.960]  Well, you got an apology.
[03:20.080 --> 03:21.120]  That wasn't what I was looking for.
[03:21.140 --> 03:22.480]  I had to take a cab after that.
[03:23.040 --> 03:25.220]  Somebody owes me $5, all right?
[03:25.220 --> 03:26.060]  And we're going to figure out who.
[03:26.960 --> 03:29.860]  Okay, Lynn joins us from, where are you, in Switzerland?
[03:30.940 --> 03:31.420]  Yes.
[03:31.720 --> 03:33.700]  And you're talking on, what are you talking on?
[03:34.380 --> 03:34.860]  Vonage.
[03:35.280 --> 03:36.200]  Vonage, wow.
[03:36.360 --> 03:37.640]  This is something.
[03:37.780 --> 03:38.820]  How much is this actually costing?
[03:40.780 --> 03:45.260]  500 minutes a month are included in Hervis.
[03:46.500 --> 03:49.080]  500 minutes included in Hervis, okay.
[03:49.860 --> 03:51.680]  Well, you know, it's not perfect.
[03:52.480 --> 03:54.480]  No, I get it that much so far.
[03:55.140 --> 03:57.400]  So, right now, what are you talking into?
[03:58.260 --> 04:05.020]  I have a boom mic into the laptop, similar to what we played around with last week.
[04:05.380 --> 04:07.900]  That same setup that we played around with last week.
[04:08.160 --> 04:13.040]  On the except that, Durek and not in the studio.
[04:13.040 --> 04:13.880]  Mm-hmm.
[04:14.580 --> 04:22.800]  And I'm paying six francs, Swiss francs, an hour to connect to the hotel wireless network.
[04:23.640 --> 04:27.080]  You're paying more to connect to the hotel's network than you are to make the actual phone call?
[04:27.720 --> 04:28.920]  Well, yeah, pretty much.
[04:29.400 --> 04:29.840]  Interesting.
[04:31.080 --> 04:33.460]  Yeah, broadband is very expensive here.
[04:33.680 --> 04:33.940]  Mm-hmm.
[04:33.940 --> 04:37.160]  But it also exists there in a lot more places, doesn't it?
[04:37.880 --> 04:48.580]  Yeah, and another thing I noticed on a slight tangent is that cell sites are much less conspicuous than they are in the state.
[04:48.580 --> 04:56.760]  They're much more... you know, you don't have those big towers with a 12-foot standoff and 4-foot-tall antennas.
[04:57.260 --> 05:02.600]  You have a pole with three antennas all the way around on the same level.
[05:02.840 --> 05:03.740]  Not 12.
[05:04.380 --> 05:06.700]  Yeah, and they're hidden a lot better.
[05:06.820 --> 05:09.940]  They hide them in the church bells and various other places that are high up.
[05:10.520 --> 05:14.940]  Yeah, they must have much better zoning, but... and, you know, and the coverage is better.
[05:15.360 --> 05:15.600]  Mm-hmm.
[05:17.620 --> 05:20.480]  Well, that's certainly true of GSM coverage over there.
[05:20.660 --> 05:22.960]  We have a new GSM convert in the studio with us.
[05:23.040 --> 05:24.160]  Mike, you have made the switch.
[05:24.300 --> 05:25.660]  You no longer are with Sprint PCS.
[05:25.720 --> 05:26.260]  Is that correct?
[05:26.880 --> 05:28.680]  As of about half an hour ago, yes.
[05:28.820 --> 05:30.300]  Okay, so CNN got that right, at least.
[05:30.540 --> 05:30.700]  Yeah.
[05:30.920 --> 05:36.760]  All right, so where did you land in the cell phone contest here?
[05:37.000 --> 05:38.460]  I'm on AT&T now.
[05:38.640 --> 05:39.500]  AT&T Wireless?
[05:39.800 --> 05:40.020]  Yes.
[05:40.180 --> 05:40.460]  Okay.
[05:40.740 --> 05:41.880]  I guess that goes without saying.
[05:42.340 --> 05:45.060]  So you're using GSM, AT&T's GSM?
[05:45.060 --> 05:45.700]  Correct.
[05:46.020 --> 05:46.240]  Okay.
[05:46.900 --> 05:47.140]  Now...
[05:47.140 --> 05:48.660]  I'm curious, which phone did you get?
[05:49.040 --> 05:51.740]  I have a Nokia 3200.
[05:53.020 --> 05:55.320]  They tend to have the coolest phones.
[05:56.920 --> 05:58.680]  Oh, Lynn, Lynn, you there?
[06:00.040 --> 06:01.840]  Oh, crap, is that sounding bad?
[06:02.100 --> 06:04.180]  No, you just dropped out for about three seconds.
[06:04.900 --> 06:05.420]  Why?
[06:05.520 --> 06:06.460]  What are you afraid of?
[06:08.060 --> 06:12.880]  No, they have the best actual cell phones available to choose from.
[06:14.820 --> 06:19.020]  You know, T-Mobile doesn't have the most current phones, and that's who I'm with.
[06:19.620 --> 06:20.300]  Oh, I see.
[06:20.380 --> 06:20.560]  Okay.
[06:22.100 --> 06:25.960]  Well, okay, now, Mike here has a phone that...
[06:25.960 --> 06:30.320]  It's a tri-band phone, but it's not tri-band in the way that I'm familiar with.
[06:30.560 --> 06:31.320]  It gets...
[06:31.320 --> 06:33.480]  Well, tell us what frequencies it transmits on.
[06:33.480 --> 06:42.440]  It has the 850 megahertz band, which is formerly the amps, the analog band, and in addition has 1800 and 1900.
[06:42.880 --> 06:45.560]  So only one of those works in Europe, and two of them work here.
[06:45.700 --> 06:45.980]  Yes.
[06:46.360 --> 06:47.740]  Which is the exact opposite of what I have.
[06:47.820 --> 06:50.000]  I have 900, 1800, and 1900.
[06:50.200 --> 06:51.000]  Lynn, are you familiar with this?
[06:51.560 --> 06:52.260]  Yeah, yeah.
[06:52.400 --> 06:57.540]  In fact, some of the newer phones are actually quad-band, cover all of the bands.
[06:57.540 --> 07:05.700]  But, yeah, mine is my cell phone that I'm using now, but is tri-band like yours, Emanuel, 918.
[07:06.620 --> 07:08.460]  Well, now, who would use the 850?
[07:08.620 --> 07:10.340]  What services operate there?
[07:10.980 --> 07:20.000]  It's interesting that he got a phone from 8T that operates on 850, because Singular operates on 850.
[07:23.240 --> 07:28.700]  As you know, AT&T and Singular are trying to merge.
[07:30.360 --> 07:30.760]  Yes.
[07:30.980 --> 07:33.420]  Well, I will say, Lynn, that you certainly sound like you're overseas.
[07:33.780 --> 07:44.360]  Yeah, you know, that's something I miss from the old days, is when you talk to somebody overseas, you used to hear the sound of the ocean, you know, underneath them, and all these other noises, which I don't understand what they were either.
[07:44.360 --> 07:52.520]  But you would know that you were talking to somebody long distance, you hear all kinds of tweets and chirps and things like that, and now it just sounds like you're right next door.
[07:52.620 --> 07:54.860]  But in this case, Lynn, you definitely sound like you're far away.
[07:55.420 --> 08:01.280]  So, in other words, what you're saying is, if you're in Europe, maybe Vonage is not the place to talk to you.
[08:01.360 --> 08:01.920]  Well, it depends.
[08:02.100 --> 08:05.100]  You know, if the price is right, this is certainly a good way to communicate.
[08:05.260 --> 08:12.720]  But if, like, say, for instance, you're transmitting ransom demands or something like that, where you have to get the message just right, I wouldn't recommend this.
[08:12.800 --> 08:14.200]  I'd go with the landline or something.
[08:15.580 --> 08:17.620]  Yeah, if you're the...
[08:17.620 --> 08:19.280]  Let's try something else, Jay.
[08:19.440 --> 08:22.340]  I always try this when there's a satellite delay or a cell phone delay.
[08:22.520 --> 08:24.760]  We're going to see how much the delay actually is.
[08:25.220 --> 08:28.300]  Lynn, what I'm going to ask you to do is, I'm going to count down three, two, and one.
[08:28.800 --> 08:35.180]  And if you could say one the same time you think I'm going to say one, we can see how much of a delay there actually is.
[08:35.780 --> 08:36.100]  Okay.
[08:36.380 --> 08:37.080]  All right, here we go.
[08:38.020 --> 08:39.760]  Three, two, one.
[08:40.020 --> 08:40.380]  One.
[08:40.600 --> 08:43.420]  All right, so we can see there's about a half-second delay there, I'd say.
[08:44.360 --> 08:44.680]  Okay.
[08:45.000 --> 08:48.300]  Now, I can also call you on the cell, although it's 65...
[08:49.940 --> 08:52.220]  65-something, I would imagine you said.
[08:52.840 --> 08:53.140]  A minute.
[08:53.660 --> 08:54.660]  65 cents a minute.
[08:55.980 --> 09:10.420]  I was going to say that, Lynn, you really should not be working for that radio station in Cuba that has the legendary history of just reading numbers in Spanish because that was a never-ending series of five numbers.
[09:10.780 --> 09:13.840]  And frankly, we wouldn't be hearing five numbers at all.
[09:14.020 --> 09:18.300]  You're dropping out like every third number it would be, would you think?
[09:18.560 --> 09:18.960]  Probably.
[09:19.160 --> 09:19.340]  Yeah.
[09:19.360 --> 09:20.100]  Probably something like that.
[09:21.240 --> 09:23.600]  So it's fascinating trying to figure out exactly what you're saying.
[09:24.260 --> 09:25.980]  Lynn, is there any frustration on your part?
[09:26.040 --> 09:29.620]  Are you saying things and not getting through, or is it pretty much the way we're hearing it?
[09:30.400 --> 09:31.700]  I'm hearing you totally.
[09:31.920 --> 09:32.100]  Okay.
[09:32.240 --> 09:32.700]  Well, that's good.
[09:32.700 --> 09:33.520]  At least it works in that direction.
[09:33.540 --> 09:34.240]  It works in that direction.
[09:34.360 --> 09:34.780]  Yeah, that's good.
[09:35.120 --> 09:35.320]  All right.
[09:35.360 --> 09:36.720]  Let's go over some of the news.
[09:36.760 --> 09:40.280]  You know, I was so flustered I didn't get a chance to call Bernie, so if Bernie's out there, please call us.
[09:41.260 --> 09:45.480]  I won't be happy to put you on, but boy, what a nightmare that was.
[09:46.440 --> 09:48.820]  Sometimes things just go wrong, you know, heading downtown.
[09:49.400 --> 09:49.960]  Don't know why.
[09:50.000 --> 09:50.680]  No particular reason.
[09:51.460 --> 09:51.780]  Okay.
[09:51.780 --> 09:56.160]  Here's a story that really struck me, and it's very troubling.
[09:56.880 --> 10:08.860]  Not long after the terrorist attacks of September 11th, a group of Muslim students led by a Saudi Arabian doctoral candidate held a candlelight vigil in the small college town of Moscow, Idaho, and condemned the attacks as an affront to Islam.
[10:09.200 --> 10:21.640]  Today, that graduate student, Sami Omar al-Hasayan, is on trial in a heavily guarded courtroom in Boise, Idaho, accused of plotting to aid and maintain Islamic websites that promote jihad.
[10:22.160 --> 10:33.580]  As a webmaster to several Islamic organizations, Mr. Hasayan helped to maintain internet sites with links to groups that praise suicide bombings in Chechnya and in Israel, but he himself does not hold those views, his lawyer said.
[10:33.720 --> 10:39.300]  His role was like that of a technical editor, they said, arguing that he could not be held criminally liable for what others wrote.
[10:39.560 --> 10:45.640]  Civil Libertarians say the case poses a landmark test of what people can do or whom they can associate with in the age of terror alerts.
[10:45.640 --> 10:57.720]  is one of the few times anyone has been prosecuted under language in the anti-terrorism law known as the USA Patriot Act, which makes it a crime to provide expert guidance or assistance to groups deemed as terrorists.
[10:57.880 --> 11:00.340]  Now, I find this to be extremely frightening.
[11:00.480 --> 11:00.940]  Imagine that.
[11:01.020 --> 11:09.540]  You have to pretty much know what the motives are, the people that you're working with, and make sure that they don't violate anything in the Patriot Act.
[11:09.700 --> 11:12.420]  I mean, am I overreacting here, or is this something to really be concerned about?
[11:12.580 --> 11:12.880]  Jim?
[11:13.080 --> 11:14.700]  No, I don't think you're overreacting.
[11:14.700 --> 11:19.680]  In fact, I find it ironic that you and I both have this as our lead article.
[11:21.340 --> 11:38.600]  The article goes on to state that a Georgetown University law professor named David Cull, who testified in a similar case, obviously in an appeals court, pointed out that if you fix a fax machine owned by a terrorist group under the law, you could be locked up.
[11:38.740 --> 11:39.840]  That's very scary.
[11:40.080 --> 11:41.620]  What if you come and fix their phone line?
[11:41.700 --> 11:42.540]  What if you're the phone company?
[11:42.640 --> 11:43.660]  Where does this end?
[11:43.860 --> 11:44.260]  Exactly.
[11:44.700 --> 11:56.500]  Now, you know, is it something, is it a bad thing to have these organizations on the web, where you can maybe learn more about them and understand their motives and possibly even apprehend them if you're so inclined?
[11:57.220 --> 12:01.560]  Maybe having them on the net where they're not operating in complete secrecy.
[12:02.100 --> 12:06.420]  I'm not saying, you know, anything involving a terrorist group could be a good thing, but maybe it's not such a bad thing.
[12:07.120 --> 12:21.500]  So if I say that I support the fact that terrorist groups have websites where they can, we can at least have some chance of understanding what's behind them, well then, isn't that one step away from saying that if something breaks, I'm going to tell them how to fix it?
[12:21.500 --> 12:29.380]  Well now, that's kind of interesting because you could make a case that a website that, well, let's make it very close to home.
[12:29.560 --> 12:37.760]  A website that would advocate the overthrow by violent means of the United States government might be ruled illegal because it's in the Constitution.
[12:37.760 --> 12:41.260]  You can't violently overthrow, advocate the overthrow of the U.S.
[12:41.340 --> 12:42.400]  government by violent means.
[12:44.200 --> 12:47.100]  But you also have the free speech argument.
[12:47.520 --> 12:55.420]  So if somebody says that if the government becomes such and such, it should be overthrown by violent means, that would be perfectly okay.
[12:55.680 --> 13:07.020]  But the point is this, if that site is okay, if you then start providing expertise to that site, that's what the Patriot Act starts interfering with.
[13:07.200 --> 13:15.040]  Not with the freedom of speech, but with the assisting of technical means to the saying of the speech.
[13:15.200 --> 13:17.840]  It becomes a very murky, very tangled web.
[13:17.920 --> 13:18.480]  Extremely murky.
[13:18.600 --> 13:20.840]  What happens if, what is technical knowledge?
[13:21.020 --> 13:27.060]  I mean, is giving them a phone number to connect their internet systems to, is that considered technical expertise?
[13:27.280 --> 13:27.920]  Where do you draw the line?
[13:27.940 --> 13:31.400]  Any of our listeners who work in tech support for a large ISP had better watch out.
[13:31.580 --> 13:49.080]  Yeah, if somebody comes up and says that they can't get their webpage up and you help them along and you suddenly discover the webpage says, you know, help support our Mu'edin in Iraq or, you know, send money to this address, whoops, you're in trouble.
[13:49.300 --> 13:53.340]  Listen to what a retired professor of computer sciences, John Dickinson said.
[13:53.380 --> 13:57.320]  He was Mr. Hussein's doctoral advisor at the University of Idaho.
[13:57.580 --> 14:00.900]  It's an illustration of how much power the government can bring against somebody.
[14:01.040 --> 14:02.040]  It should scare anybody.
[14:02.320 --> 14:07.660]  He said he was interviewed by the FBI for several hours after Mr. Hussein's arrest back in February 2003.
[14:07.920 --> 14:10.140]  Funny I haven't heard about this until now.
[14:10.700 --> 14:16.260]  They kept saying his PhD program was a front and that the person I knew was only the tip of this monstrous iceberg.
[14:16.420 --> 14:20.760]  But I've yet to hear one thing the government has said since then that has made me question his innocence.
[14:21.840 --> 14:24.460]  So it's the same old story.
[14:24.460 --> 14:32.080]  You know, they, they provide, it's a theme of the Bush administration, no evidence, just a lot of talk and well, just believe us, trust us.
[14:32.600 --> 14:35.620]  And maybe you'll forget about it when the truth finally comes out.
[14:35.800 --> 14:51.620]  In the indictment, the government charged that Mr. Hussein provided computer advice and assistance, communications facilities and financial instruments and services that assisted in the creation and maintenance of internet websites and other internet medium intended to recruit and raise funds for violent jihad,
[14:52.020 --> 14:53.900]  particularly in Palestine and Chechnya.
[14:54.620 --> 14:55.820]  Now, interesting thing.
[14:56.480 --> 14:58.040]  There's all kinds of ways you can look at this.
[14:58.100 --> 15:03.440]  First of all, is a site that's affiliated with a particular group necessarily being used for violent overthrow?
[15:03.760 --> 15:12.180]  And then the second question you could ask is, well, if it's okay to support one side in a violent conflict, why is it not okay to support another side in the violent conflict?
[15:12.260 --> 15:17.080]  I'm sure if I said that I want to give money to Israel's army, nobody would stop me.
[15:17.260 --> 15:18.480]  Nobody would call me a terrorist.
[15:18.600 --> 15:19.840]  However, you would stop me.
[15:19.900 --> 15:20.000]  Okay.
[15:20.120 --> 15:24.220]  But if I did that, if I announced, if I just said, look, where can I give my money?
[15:24.360 --> 15:24.580]  Fine.
[15:24.740 --> 15:28.820]  But if I went to the other side and said, you know, I think these, these Palestinians are getting a raw deal.
[15:29.120 --> 15:31.880]  How do I help them build an army so that they can fight back?
[15:32.120 --> 15:33.360]  Then I'm suddenly a terrorist.
[15:33.360 --> 15:34.400]  And that's just not right.
[15:34.680 --> 15:37.380]  You know, I can see, you know, in your own country, maybe.
[15:38.040 --> 15:40.440]  Although these days I kind of have doubts with that too.
[15:41.620 --> 15:42.380]  Lynn, any thoughts on this?
[15:44.860 --> 15:45.740]  Lynn, are you still there?
[15:47.520 --> 15:47.880]  Okay.
[15:48.240 --> 15:49.220]  Maybe they've gotten to him.
[15:49.300 --> 15:50.800]  I hope we didn't insult him.
[15:51.060 --> 15:51.880]  I don't think so.
[15:51.920 --> 15:53.080]  Say bad things about his phone.
[15:53.220 --> 15:55.540]  I don't, I don't think, uh, people are that sensitive about their phones.
[15:55.680 --> 16:00.980]  Well, Lynn, if you're there, uh, just chime in anytime and hopefully we'll hear your audio over ours.
[16:01.600 --> 16:03.840]  Um, let's give him two seconds to respond.
[16:05.320 --> 16:06.160]  No, he's not there.
[16:06.780 --> 16:07.980]  The phone is still lit though.
[16:08.100 --> 16:08.680]  The phone is still it.
[16:08.860 --> 16:15.300]  So, um, maybe it's the same thing that happened to us in Germany last year where I was talking for a good 20 minutes, not realizing that I wasn't on the air.
[16:15.820 --> 16:16.680]  Um, okay.
[16:16.800 --> 16:28.920]  Continuing along, uh, with the crazy things that are going on today, uh, secret service agents have questioned a high school student about anti-war drawings he did for an art class, one of which depicted President Bush's head on a stick.
[16:29.380 --> 16:35.860]  Another pencil and ink drawing portrayed Bush as a devil launching a missile with a caption reading, end the war on terrorism.
[16:36.280 --> 16:43.600]  The 15 year old boy's art teacher at Prosser High School turned the drawings over to the school administrators who notified police who called the secret service.
[16:44.000 --> 16:49.780]  Uh, we involve the police anytime we have a concern, said, uh, Superintendent Ray Tolkesher.
[16:50.260 --> 16:53.260]  Uh, secret service agents identified the kid on Friday.
[16:53.620 --> 16:54.340]  Uh, he wasn't arrested.
[16:54.440 --> 16:55.220]  He hasn't been identified.
[16:55.520 --> 17:00.560]  The school district has disciplined him, they say, but district officials refused to say what they did.
[17:00.960 --> 17:04.540]  And, um, they, um, they said he wasn't suspended, however.
[17:04.740 --> 17:08.080]  The artwork was apparently part of an assignment to keep a notebook of drawings.
[17:08.620 --> 17:13.880]  Uh, the drawing that drew the most notice showed a man in what appeared to be Middle Eastern style clothing holding a rifle.
[17:14.060 --> 17:16.880]  He was also holding a stick with an oversized head of the president on it.
[17:17.180 --> 17:20.140]  The student said the head was enlarged because it was intended to be an effigy.
[17:21.060 --> 17:23.940]  So, uh, the, the caption called for an end to the war in Iraq.
[17:25.220 --> 17:34.240]  Um, according to, um, the family friend, if this 15 year old kid in, uh, in, uh, Prosser, Washington is perceived as a threat to the president.
[17:34.460 --> 17:36.060]  And we are in fact living in 1984.
[17:37.240 --> 17:40.780]  However, uh, the police chief said, from what I saw, school officials were right to be concerned.
[17:41.080 --> 17:41.340]  I don't know.
[17:41.740 --> 17:45.380]  Draw a picture of the president, uh, being burned in effigy or hung in effigy or whatever.
[17:45.560 --> 17:48.040]  And, you know, pencil and paper drawing.
[17:48.420 --> 17:55.580]  Isn't there an artist in New York that used to go around with a giant oversized Giuliani head possibly with a Hitler mustache on it?
[17:55.600 --> 18:00.320]  I think that, that was, that's not necessarily something that is, uh, considered bad.
[18:01.360 --> 18:13.180]  Well, no, but the point is this, you know, if, if, if it's, if the secret service gets involved when it's the president, you would think that the city police would get involved when it's the mayor and it starts becoming a little ridiculous.
[18:13.440 --> 18:15.840]  The whole thing, you have to really know when to draw the line here.
[18:15.920 --> 18:25.020]  I think somebody drawing a picture on a piece of paper as a school project is not really, you know, even if he holds those beliefs, uh, is he really somebody that's going to be able to carry them out?
[18:25.220 --> 18:29.400]  I think the secret service really needs something to do with its time.
[18:29.520 --> 18:31.220]  Well, they're chasing after hackers, isn't that something?
[18:31.400 --> 18:31.720]  I mean...
[18:31.720 --> 18:33.640]  We thought that would keep them occupied, but apparently not.
[18:33.900 --> 18:34.720]  Mm-hmm.
[18:35.100 --> 18:44.360]  They've got all these resources to, like, protect the president, and, you know, there's really only a few people who want to kill the president, and most of them don't have the means.
[18:44.560 --> 18:47.400]  And they've got all these agents with really nothing else to do.
[18:47.660 --> 18:47.840]  Mm-hmm.
[18:48.180 --> 18:57.500]  Actually, a bounty was issued on the head of, uh, of Rumsfeld, I think Bush, too, on behalf of various, uh, groups over in Iraq and, uh, in that part of the world.
[18:57.840 --> 19:00.060]  Uh, I think that was announced on the, on the TV today.
[19:00.380 --> 19:00.540]  Oh.
[19:00.900 --> 19:03.320]  Uh, so no doubt that will, uh, get all kinds of reaction.
[19:03.380 --> 19:10.000]  Of course, um, people in the United States, I'm told, are ineligible for this, because just transferring the money to start with would be a real pain.
[19:10.980 --> 19:11.520]  I see.
[19:11.700 --> 19:12.780]  But other reasons as well.
[19:13.600 --> 19:18.300]  Uh, okay, Lynn, we have to ask you now if you're, if you're there to speak up.
[19:18.960 --> 19:19.320]  Yes.
[19:19.500 --> 19:20.040]  Oh, there you are.
[19:20.140 --> 19:20.300]  Okay.
[19:20.700 --> 19:21.760]  Did you disappear for a while?
[19:22.380 --> 19:22.920]  Oh, no.
[19:23.040 --> 19:24.200]  I was just listening quietly.
[19:24.540 --> 19:25.980]  Even when we asked you to say something.
[19:26.820 --> 19:35.620]  Well, at, at that point, actually, I, I may have been trying to figure out how long the delay was from here to air by listening to the stream at the same time.
[19:36.140 --> 19:36.140]  Okay.
[19:36.260 --> 19:36.420]  Yeah.
[19:36.580 --> 19:36.700]  Yeah.
[19:36.800 --> 19:37.640]  I, I, I could see that.
[19:38.260 --> 19:42.920]  Um, interestingly enough, it's about the same as it was in the studio, which is about three and a half minutes.
[19:43.980 --> 19:44.340]  Yeah.
[19:44.440 --> 19:44.960]  About that.
[19:45.080 --> 19:45.820]  Well, it's about four.
[19:46.180 --> 19:46.540]  Wow.
[19:46.720 --> 19:47.600]  For 30 seconds.
[19:49.180 --> 19:49.540]  Interesting.
[19:49.920 --> 19:51.100]  Um, okay.
[19:51.200 --> 19:55.720]  Well, this was, I did have one thing to tell, uh, the tank issue.
[19:55.900 --> 19:57.020]  I found out some information.
[19:57.520 --> 19:58.000]  Okay.
[19:58.080 --> 19:58.100]  Okay.
[19:58.120 --> 19:58.300]  Go ahead.
[19:59.440 --> 20:01.640]  Um, I hope you can decipher.
[20:02.280 --> 20:13.220]  Basically, the, uh, I think that I spoke to here said, told me that well-informed best government requested that from the Swiss.
[20:15.180 --> 20:18.140]  What were the U S where the U S government requested from the Swiss government?
[20:18.920 --> 20:24.320]  He, the tank escort or the, Oh, the tank, the tank that Bernie S saw on the airplane.
[20:24.320 --> 20:26.140]  Um, did you, did you see the tank?
[20:27.100 --> 20:28.340]  Um, apparently not.
[20:28.800 --> 20:32.320]  Apparently, it's American and continent.
[20:32.660 --> 20:33.520]  I didn't fly them.
[20:33.720 --> 20:33.940]  Okay.
[20:34.020 --> 20:38.540]  I was able to get from that, that only American and continental have the tank and, and Lynn did not fly them.
[20:38.640 --> 20:39.360]  Is that, is that correct, Lynn?
[20:40.080 --> 20:40.320]  Yeah.
[20:40.400 --> 20:41.040]  And United.
[20:41.360 --> 20:41.660]  Okay.
[20:41.980 --> 20:43.120]  And United has them as well.
[20:43.360 --> 20:44.500]  See, this is, this is kind of cool.
[20:44.600 --> 20:48.040]  We can, we can get the message out of maybe two thirds of what he's saying.
[20:49.760 --> 20:53.080]  It's a, it's a skill on kind of like talking on ham radio.
[20:53.160 --> 20:54.140]  It's exactly like that.
[20:54.220 --> 20:54.300]  Yeah.
[20:54.400 --> 20:56.000]  And it's like learning Morse code or something.
[20:56.200 --> 20:56.840]  So, okay.
[20:56.880 --> 21:00.540]  But you did in fact confirm that that little tank exists that greets some airplanes in Switzerland.
[21:01.160 --> 21:01.560]  Yes.
[21:01.960 --> 21:02.160]  All right.
[21:02.240 --> 21:03.420]  And, and what was it for again?
[21:05.240 --> 21:08.500]  West government requested it for additional security.
[21:09.520 --> 21:10.000]  Uh-huh.
[21:10.180 --> 21:12.040]  And they didn't explain what that meant or anything.
[21:13.260 --> 21:16.200]  Oh, the, the guy that I talked to said that was all that he really knew.
[21:16.520 --> 21:17.680]  He did know about it.
[21:18.060 --> 21:18.260]  Okay.
[21:18.760 --> 21:19.020]  All right.
[21:19.080 --> 21:20.200]  Well, that's, that's definitely something.
[21:20.380 --> 21:24.740]  And, uh, I'm sure that's, uh, of interest to anybody who will be traveling to, uh, to Switzerland via air.
[21:25.420 --> 21:26.500]  Um, okay.
[21:26.620 --> 21:32.740]  There was a TV program on last week on frontline, um, involving Richard Clark.
[21:32.900 --> 21:35.200]  That's the guy who blew the whistle on the Bush administration.
[21:35.680 --> 21:41.140]  Uh, he's talking about cyber crime and, um, how that is the next biggest threat.
[21:41.400 --> 21:46.760]  There's, um, there's a, um, I guess a transcript of it on PBS.org.
[21:46.900 --> 21:53.220]  If you go to, uh, the, um, frontline page in there, which just type it in the search bar and I'm sure you'll find it.
[21:53.340 --> 21:58.060]  But basically he was asked, what is the significance of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed's training and background?
[21:58.580 --> 21:59.680]  And here's the answer.
[21:59.780 --> 22:08.100]  We're troubled by the fact that, uh, a number of people related to Al Qaeda, including Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, who was recently arrested and was the chief operating officer.
[22:08.220 --> 22:10.660]  A number of these people have technical backgrounds.
[22:11.340 --> 22:15.080]  Khaled Sheikh Mohammed studied engineering at a university in North Carolina.
[22:15.320 --> 22:19.440]  He was employed for a while at the water ministry in the nation of Qatar and the Persian Gulf.
[22:19.880 --> 22:24.820]  Recently, a student at the University of Idaho was arrested by the FBI for alleged terrorist connections.
[22:24.960 --> 22:26.480]  Is this the same student, do you think?
[22:27.120 --> 22:28.720]  That seems that way, doesn't it?
[22:28.800 --> 22:29.900]  For alleged terrorist connections.
[22:30.160 --> 22:33.060]  And, uh, he was studying in a PhD program on cyber security.
[22:33.300 --> 22:33.520]  Okay.
[22:33.760 --> 22:35.580]  Look at the, uh, connections being made here.
[22:35.740 --> 22:42.000]  So I think similarly to the fact that some of these September 11th hijackers had training in flight training, training in flight training.
[22:42.180 --> 22:42.280]  Okay.
[22:42.600 --> 22:46.680]  Some of the people that we're seeing now related to Al Qaeda had training in computer security.
[22:48.040 --> 22:58.740]  So basically if, uh, if you have training in computer security now, your motives might be looked upon kind of like somebody taking flight training, you know, because you can take down the whole infrastructure.
[22:58.740 --> 22:59.880]  Just like that.
[23:00.040 --> 23:00.580]  Just like that.
[23:00.660 --> 23:03.020]  Well, of course, with a thought, with a glance.
[23:03.700 --> 23:05.140]  He was, he was also asked.
[23:05.220 --> 23:05.460]  Go ahead, Jim.
[23:05.660 --> 23:12.980]  I was just going to say, so they're watching for people who don't want to learn to log on or log off, but just want to learn the intermediate parts.
[23:13.820 --> 23:14.220]  Yeah.
[23:14.440 --> 23:15.980]  That's basically what they're, what they're looking for.
[23:16.200 --> 23:20.380]  Uh, what does this mean as far as attitude towards Al Qaeda's interest in cyber war?
[23:20.820 --> 23:22.920]  Did you know Al Qaeda had interest in cyber war?
[23:23.480 --> 23:23.780]  Yeah.
[23:23.960 --> 23:33.540]  Well, uh, the fact that these people are gathering skills in cyber war capability is very troubling combined with the fact that we know that they're looking on the web for hacking tools.
[23:34.480 --> 23:35.260]  Oh, geez.
[23:35.860 --> 23:37.280]  So that's who those people are.
[23:37.640 --> 23:43.880]  They keep coming onto IRC and talking in that, like, you know, where speak and like looking for the latest, uh, exploits.
[23:44.160 --> 23:45.360]  That's Al Qaeda out there.
[23:45.460 --> 23:45.500]  Wait, wait, wait.
[23:45.560 --> 23:50.460]  I think you're confusing, uh, Al Qaeda with bored illiterate American teenagers.
[23:51.080 --> 23:52.840]  Well, couldn't they be the same thing?
[23:53.300 --> 23:54.120]  Think about it.
[23:54.520 --> 23:55.800]  They infiltrate, you know?
[23:56.440 --> 24:00.660]  I'm not sure which way is infiltrating which way, but that's definitely some infiltration going on here.
[24:01.580 --> 24:04.680]  Um, we know that because we've seized some of their computers.
[24:04.940 --> 24:10.340]  It suggests to me that Al Qaeda may be trying to grow an indigenous cyber warfare capability.
[24:10.680 --> 24:22.380]  I think it suggests that someday we may see Al Qaeda, if it's still alive and operating, use cyberspace as a vehicle for attacking infrastructure, not with bombs, but with... Bites?
[24:22.460 --> 24:23.060]  That's very good.
[24:23.240 --> 24:24.060]  See, you could write this?
[24:24.700 --> 24:27.700]  That's a, that's a, that's a, uh, that's a, uh, soundbite right there.
[24:28.340 --> 24:44.700]  Uh, what's amazing to me is that this guy's going around, uh, talking about, uh, about, uh, wares rooms and, uh, IRC and, and, and, and cybercrime and all that kind of a thing, uh, as, as if that's any, any kind of, uh, remote similarity to the horrors of,
[24:44.760 --> 24:46.000]  uh, actual terrorism.
[24:46.200 --> 24:49.500]  But I think it, it, it gets, um, summed up rather well at the end.
[24:50.080 --> 24:52.640]  Um, and this actually I would take kind of seriously.
[24:53.220 --> 25:02.180]  Um, the question is asked, in a world where there are enormous threats, North Korea, dirty bombs, biological weapons, why should anybody be that concerned over the question of cyber war?
[25:02.320 --> 25:05.880]  His answer, we as a country have put all of our eggs in one basket.
[25:06.120 --> 25:13.560]  The reason that we're successfully dominating the world economically and militarily is because of systems that we have designed and rely upon, which are cyber based.
[25:13.840 --> 25:15.160]  It's our Achilles heel.
[25:15.360 --> 25:17.480]  It's an overused phrase, but it's absolutely true.
[25:17.740 --> 25:20.960]  It could be that in the future people will look back on the American empire.
[25:21.280 --> 25:30.620]  The can't believe he's talking like this, the economic empire and the military empire and say they didn't realize that they were building their whole empire on a fragile base.
[25:30.780 --> 25:35.460]  They had changed that base from brick and mortar to bits and bytes and they never fortified it.
[25:35.660 --> 25:39.400]  Therefore, some enemy someday was able to come around and knock the whole empire over.
[25:39.660 --> 25:40.640]  That is the fear.
[25:41.420 --> 25:50.920]  Well, you know, I'm not buying into the fear part of this, but I am buying into the ignorance part where people design systems and they, they don't have any kind of backup.
[25:51.160 --> 25:53.460]  They don't have any kind of, uh, of redundancy.
[25:53.980 --> 26:02.780]  And if they are attacked on a particular level, if they lose some bit of data or just have some kind of an accident, uh, they, they really wind up losing out pretty much.
[26:02.940 --> 26:10.500]  And to have any kind of critical infrastructure dependent on such a thing, I think is a big mistake without any kind of redundancy or, uh, or backing up.
[26:12.600 --> 26:13.040]  Okay.
[26:13.240 --> 26:14.680]  I assume everybody agrees with that then.
[26:14.780 --> 26:18.820]  So I'm going to move on to the, uh, news release that we got from the Department of Justice.
[26:19.100 --> 26:22.840]  Justice Department announces international internet piracy sweep.
[26:22.940 --> 26:23.840]  This happened last week.
[26:23.940 --> 26:29.640]  It was called Operation Fastlink, the largest global enforcement action ever undertaken against online piracy.
[26:30.120 --> 26:40.680]  Attorney General John Ashcroft announced the most far reaching and aggressive enforcement action ever undertaken against organizations involved in illegal intellectual property piracy over the internet.
[26:41.260 --> 26:42.260]  That's a mouthful.
[26:42.640 --> 26:55.220]  Uh, beginning, uh, on, uh, Wednesday morning of last week, law enforcement from 10 countries and the United States conducted over 120 searches worldwide to dismantle some of the most well-known and prolific online piracy organizations.
[26:55.840 --> 26:58.240]  What are the most well-known piracy organizations?
[26:58.800 --> 26:59.840]  Does anybody know?
[27:00.160 --> 27:01.660]  I guess they're not that well-known.
[27:01.800 --> 27:02.540]  It must not be.
[27:03.380 --> 27:07.140]  Uh, intellectual property theft is a global problem that hurts economies around the world.
[27:07.420 --> 27:10.620]  Uh, to be effective, we must respond globally, Ashcroft said.
[27:10.740 --> 27:18.420]  In the past 24 hours, working closely with our foreign law enforcement counterparts, we have moved aggressively to strike at the very core of the international online piracy world.
[27:18.860 --> 27:20.720]  Is this really the most important thing they could be doing?
[27:21.820 --> 27:22.460]  I don't know.
[27:22.640 --> 27:34.200]  The amount of international coordination and cooperation in this effort is unprecedented and will send a clear and unmistakable message to those individuals and organizations dedicated to piracy that they will no longer be protected by geographic boundaries.
[27:34.520 --> 27:38.600]  We are committed to combating this theft and will pursue those thieves regardless of their location.
[27:39.520 --> 27:40.340]  Well then.
[27:41.200 --> 27:51.740]  In addition to attacking piracy globally, Operation Fast Link struck at all facets of the illegal software, game, movie, and music trade online, which is commonly referred to as the wares scene.
[27:51.880 --> 27:53.980]  And yes, they did spell it with a Z.
[27:54.840 --> 28:01.420]  In the Department of Justice news release, they are heretofore referring to wares as W-A-R-E-Z.
[28:01.720 --> 28:04.360]  I think that is the fourth sign of the apocalypse.
[28:04.420 --> 28:05.200]  I think so, too.
[28:05.380 --> 28:05.920]  I think so.
[28:05.960 --> 28:09.700]  I think that's also a sign of victory for the pirates that they got the Justice Department to say wares.
[28:09.860 --> 28:11.560]  So let's just move on and do something else.
[28:12.480 --> 28:13.080]  Oh, boy.
[28:13.120 --> 28:19.760]  The investigations focused on individuals and organizations known as wares release groups that specialize in the internet distribution of pirated materials.
[28:21.020 --> 28:35.100]  And the ongoing investigations were assisted by various intellectual property trade associations, including the Business Software Alliance, the Entertainment Software Association, the Motion Picture Association of America, and the Recording Industry Association of America.
[28:36.380 --> 28:40.180]  Speaking of lawsuits and threats, Mike, you've gotten yourself into a bit of a jam here.
[28:40.180 --> 28:40.680]  What's going on?
[28:40.680 --> 28:41.000]  Yes.
[28:41.720 --> 29:00.860]  A listener emailed us the other day saying that their website, which exposes the biomedical testing corporation, Covance, and shows some of their abuse of monkeys and primates, and it's got photos and videos and all that.
[29:02.420 --> 29:04.040]  How did they get these photos and videos?
[29:04.040 --> 29:13.180]  Uh, someone, uh, signed an employment agreement, I guess, and went in and took photos and then, uh, released them to, to the animal rights folks.
[29:13.460 --> 29:13.800]  Okay.
[29:14.040 --> 29:15.300]  And what did these photos show exactly?
[29:15.720 --> 29:28.520]  Uh, they show, uh, Covance employees, um, you know, uh, overdosing animals and, uh, you know, cutting them open and all kinds of nasty stuff like that.
[29:28.720 --> 29:28.960]  Mm-hmm.
[29:28.960 --> 29:28.960]  Yeah.
[29:29.460 --> 29:36.180]  And, uh, Covance understandably doesn't like these photographs, but illogically they think that they can prevent their spread.
[29:36.700 --> 29:49.340]  And so they've started to, um, to threaten the websites that host these photographs, which anyone who's familiar with the internet knows just makes more and more people want to mirror it.
[29:49.480 --> 29:51.940]  And so I decided to become one of those people.
[29:52.420 --> 30:15.380]  And, uh, so now on my website, I have a copy of these photographs and, uh, unsurprisingly my ISP and my DNS providers, uh, got emails from this guy, uh, Thomas de Weerd, W-E-E-R-D, who's in the Netherlands, uh, alleging that I violate all these crazy EU laws and it's,
[30:15.500 --> 30:19.060]  it's, uh, and, uh, asking them to shut down my service.
[30:20.700 --> 30:21.140]  Really?
[30:21.380 --> 30:21.500]  Yeah.
[30:21.520 --> 30:22.600]  And have they reacted to that yet?
[30:22.820 --> 30:28.780]  Well, uh, I was using a secondary DNS provider, uh, who was in France.
[30:29.220 --> 30:30.760]  And they were a free provider.
[30:31.040 --> 30:34.960]  And they, they sent a response saying, look, we don't control the content of this website.
[30:34.960 --> 30:35.920]  We just do the DNS.
[30:36.420 --> 30:44.400]  And they got this kind of nasty letter in response, threatening basically to sue if, if they don't stop providing my DNS.
[30:45.180 --> 30:53.440]  They're saying that providing DNS opens you up to, to liability if they don't like what the person using the DNS is doing with it.
[30:53.460 --> 30:54.220]  That's what they say.
[30:54.440 --> 31:04.120]  And of course, even assuming they're wrong, uh, you know, this is a, an, a small free DNS service who already loses money just providing the service.
[31:04.300 --> 31:06.000]  They certainly can't afford to hire lawyers.
[31:06.980 --> 31:21.980]  So, uh, they, I, I am now in the search for an alternate DNS provider, uh, which may or may not become moot because they're also sending letters to my ISP, uh, asking them to cease providing me service.
[31:23.080 --> 31:30.080]  Just because you're hosting pictures of abused animals in a laboratory that somebody broke their, their confidence agreement by taking.
[31:30.300 --> 31:30.460]  Right.
[31:30.740 --> 31:30.960]  All right.
[31:31.060 --> 31:34.760]  Well, I want to tell people how to get to the site before, uh, they come down hard on us.
[31:34.760 --> 31:46.200]  We, we, we should, we should probably let them get to another site other than Mike's because they may sue you for having the site name and address put over the air.
[31:46.520 --> 31:47.820]  You really think that might happen?
[31:47.920 --> 31:50.360]  If they're crazy enough to sue a DNS provider, yes.
[31:50.520 --> 31:50.740]  Okay.
[31:50.900 --> 31:51.760]  Let's give out the address then.
[31:52.340 --> 31:52.560]  Sure.
[31:52.700 --> 31:56.040]  Uh, well, my, my website is mlcastle.net.
[31:56.200 --> 32:03.120]  And, uh, if you add slash covance, C-O-V-A-N-C-E to that, you'll go directly to the site.
[32:03.460 --> 32:08.920]  Or if you search for it on my homepage, you can also see the threat letter and my response, uh, there too.
[32:09.360 --> 32:09.760]  Okay.
[32:10.060 --> 32:19.880]  And, uh, if, if, if that doesn't, if that stops working while I'm on the radio or something, uh, you can also Google for covance undercover and there's some other mirrors out there.
[32:19.880 --> 32:19.960]  Okay.
[32:19.980 --> 32:22.520]  Because I don't think Ariel Sharon has declared you, you an enemy yet.
[32:22.520 --> 32:24.580]  So there's not gonna be a missile lobbed at your ISP.
[32:24.800 --> 32:25.800]  Well, hopefully not.
[32:25.960 --> 32:26.220]  All right.
[32:27.440 --> 32:28.500]  But, uh, just be careful.
[32:28.500 --> 32:36.880]  The interesting thing about this, of course, is that they allege I'm in violation of all kinds of EU and German laws and they reference court cases in Germany and all this.
[32:37.140 --> 32:38.040]  Uh, but U.S.
[32:38.060 --> 32:38.740]  laws are different.
[32:38.920 --> 32:46.160]  And especially in the, in the case of defamation and that sort of thing, you can get away with a lot more in this country than you can in Germany.
[32:46.660 --> 32:49.700]  So I'm still waiting for them to explain what U.S.
[32:49.760 --> 32:50.600]  law is being violated.
[32:50.840 --> 32:51.580]  Well, that's the thing.
[32:51.640 --> 33:00.080]  You know, when, when you have all these treaties and, uh, similarity of laws are all around the globe, you can violate something in Germany and somebody in the United States will prosecute you for it.
[33:00.120 --> 33:03.800]  That's the dream, that there will be this kind of global injustice system.
[33:03.800 --> 33:08.580]  Uh, and soon we won't be able to say anything that wouldn't make it past the, uh, Chinese or Cuban censors.
[33:09.960 --> 33:11.320]  Looking forward to this very much.
[33:12.460 --> 33:13.400]  Uh, all right.
[33:13.460 --> 33:14.260]  Well, best of luck with that.
[33:14.380 --> 33:19.440]  Is there anything else that you want to pass on to us as far as, uh, anything that was said in the threat specifically or...
[33:19.440 --> 33:21.020]  Um, no, it's just very silly.
[33:21.400 --> 33:22.780]  How did you initially hear about this?
[33:23.060 --> 33:26.600]  Uh, we got an email, the, the off the hook, uh, email address.
[33:26.600 --> 33:29.520]  And I, uh, have some friends who are animal rights activists.
[33:29.740 --> 33:32.220]  So I was intrigued enough by the issue to participate.
[33:33.240 --> 33:39.880]  Um, if anyone else wants to, to join the club, I also have a zip file available so you can put up your own mirrors.
[33:40.320 --> 33:47.500]  I find it amazing what, what, how things have progressed over the years where, you know, such a threat would have been unheard of maybe even five years ago.
[33:47.760 --> 33:48.860]  And now it's run of the mill.
[33:48.980 --> 33:50.060]  It's the kind of thing you see all the time.
[33:50.620 --> 33:51.380]  It's really sad.
[33:51.740 --> 34:02.140]  The one thing I did do is the, the original website had the, uh, phone numbers of some of the, uh, executives and even some of the, like, lab techs who work.
[34:02.220 --> 34:08.680]  And I removed those from my copy, um, out of, out of politeness to those individuals.
[34:09.300 --> 34:15.080]  Well, that's, that was a nice thing, I think, because that's, you know, that's kind of, uh, that could be seen as harassment.
[34:15.320 --> 34:17.340]  So, uh, you made a value judgment there.
[34:17.340 --> 34:18.160]  Maybe they don't know about that.
[34:18.240 --> 34:19.480]  Maybe that's the part they're really upset about.
[34:19.680 --> 34:24.160]  Well, there, that, uh, the, their original complaint, uh, goes up to F.
[34:24.360 --> 34:25.140]  There's six parts.
[34:25.260 --> 34:25.440]  Okay.
[34:25.440 --> 34:28.100]  And only part A is about those phone numbers.
[34:28.100 --> 34:29.800]  So what are the other, what's B through F about?
[34:30.000 --> 34:33.760]  Uh, B is unlawful publication of video images and photos.
[34:34.140 --> 34:34.480]  Uh-huh.
[34:34.960 --> 34:36.740]  C is unlawful accusations.
[34:37.900 --> 34:39.340]  An unlawful accusation?
[34:39.500 --> 34:39.680]  Yeah.
[34:39.840 --> 34:41.840]  Well, isn't that what they're doing to you?
[34:42.000 --> 34:42.600]  I mean...
[34:42.600 --> 34:43.920]  Maybe I should counter Sue.
[34:44.500 --> 34:44.700]  In our opinion, I would be, yeah.
[34:45.080 --> 34:47.360]  D is trademark infringement, which is my favorite.
[34:47.360 --> 34:50.500]  How are you infringing their trademark by taking pictures of tortured animals?
[34:50.720 --> 34:52.280]  Is that something they have a trademark of?
[34:52.280 --> 34:56.800]  They allege that use of the word Covance in any context, uh, infringes their trademark.
[34:57.000 --> 34:57.560]  Is that so?
[34:57.740 --> 35:00.060]  Which is, of course, not true, but it's what they allege.
[35:00.140 --> 35:01.260]  Covance is spelled how again?
[35:01.440 --> 35:03.840]  C-O-V-A-N-C-E.
[35:04.020 --> 35:05.000]  What's their website, do you know?
[35:05.320 --> 35:07.080]  Uh, their website is Covance.com.
[35:07.240 --> 35:07.880]  .com, interesting.
[35:08.040 --> 35:10.720]  And you'll see, actually, that they're headquartered in Princeton, New Jersey.
[35:11.160 --> 35:14.660]  So why they need Dutch people to come after me is kind of curious.
[35:14.760 --> 35:15.640]  They could be listening right now.
[35:15.700 --> 35:16.320]  They could be listening.
[35:16.380 --> 35:17.140]  Princeton, New Jersey.
[35:17.360 --> 35:18.340]  Hi, Covance employees.
[35:18.740 --> 35:19.360]  Ah, boy.
[35:19.580 --> 35:21.420]  E, E, by the way, is abuse.
[35:21.580 --> 35:24.160]  And F is the formal notice and removal request.
[35:25.060 --> 35:25.500]  What?
[35:25.780 --> 35:27.400]  A removal request is a charge?
[35:27.660 --> 35:28.320]  That's F.
[35:28.440 --> 35:28.920]  I don't know.
[35:29.020 --> 35:29.840]  Section F.
[35:30.520 --> 35:31.200]  All right, Jim, yes.
[35:31.340 --> 35:37.380]  I was just going to say, if there's a hacker or a stripper out there looking for a nom de guerre, Covance, is it?
[35:38.200 --> 35:40.460]  Yeah, I suppose, uh, you could say that.
[35:41.120 --> 35:42.500]  Um, interesting.
[35:43.900 --> 35:46.400]  Well, um, best of luck with that, Mike.
[35:46.400 --> 35:47.420]  You can keep us updated.
[35:48.900 --> 35:50.240]  Uh, Lynn, are you still there with us in Switzerland?
[35:50.920 --> 35:51.360]  Oh, yeah.
[35:51.720 --> 35:51.880]  Okay.
[35:52.360 --> 35:54.300]  What, uh, what, what time is it over there, by the way?
[35:56.480 --> 35:58.780]  Uh, 35 in the morning.
[35:59.400 --> 36:00.300]  Something in the morning.
[36:01.280 --> 36:01.720]  35.
[36:02.300 --> 36:03.060]  I've got the 35.
[36:03.320 --> 36:04.220]  What 35 is it?
[36:05.060 --> 36:05.440]  One.
[36:05.740 --> 36:07.220]  1.35 in the morning.
[36:07.540 --> 36:07.980]  Okay.
[36:08.160 --> 36:13.540]  Well, that's, uh, we appreciate you, uh, spending time with us, uh, while, uh, while you're over there.
[36:14.140 --> 36:15.880]  Um, are you in a public place?
[36:16.100 --> 36:16.400]  Are you letting me...
[36:17.740 --> 36:20.360]  Are people staring at you as if you've got two heads or anything?
[36:20.980 --> 36:22.760]  No, I'm, I'm, I'm in the...
[36:23.920 --> 36:28.220]  Okay, well, Lynn is in something, and, uh, I hope, I hope you're, uh...
[36:28.220 --> 36:30.700]  It's only about, you're only getting about half.
[36:32.300 --> 36:34.140]  We're getting half of whatever you said it was.
[36:34.260 --> 36:34.480]  Yeah.
[36:35.480 --> 36:40.160]  I, I think we might also be stepping on you a little bit, too, because when we talk, it steps on you a second later.
[36:42.960 --> 36:44.360]  Yeah, sometimes more, too.
[36:44.880 --> 36:46.160]  Um, okay.
[36:46.540 --> 36:48.640]  Yeah, I always hear him, though, when I'm talking, which is kind of funny.
[36:49.180 --> 36:50.640]  It's kind of like the BAI phone system.
[36:51.280 --> 37:02.960]  Uh, okay, speaking of weirdness on the net, um, this, uh, listener wrote in, named Master Key, writing in to tell us, I found, uh, what appears to be a government, uh, streaming radio station on Homeland Security.
[37:02.960 --> 37:06.760]  It's called www.homelanddefenseradio.com.
[37:06.760 --> 37:17.520]  Um, now, I, I did some looking into this, and, in fact, there is, uh, a website there, at homelanddefenseradio.com, and they do have a, a streaming, uh, station of sorts.
[37:17.540 --> 37:19.000]  I'm trying to get it to play right now.
[37:19.300 --> 37:26.500]  Uh, it's loading, um, it's loading Windows Media Player and are immediately crashing, which is not what Windows Media Player is supposed to do.
[37:26.620 --> 37:27.260]  It's what it does.
[37:27.260 --> 37:28.880]  It's what it does, but it's not what it's supposed to do.
[37:29.040 --> 37:33.600]  I was wondering, Mike, if you could take a trip over here and see if you can figure out how to play this through some alternate means.
[37:33.700 --> 37:36.020]  I'd just like to, uh, kind of hear what these people are saying.
[37:36.020 --> 37:38.500]  But, basically, this is not part of the government.
[37:39.180 --> 37:47.640]  Uh, homelanddefenseradio.com is a 24-hour national live internet broadcast providing time-sensitive information to the homeland defense community.
[37:47.920 --> 37:50.000]  And I'm reading their, their webpage now.
[37:50.580 --> 38:03.120]  As the, uh, only broadcast outlet dedicated exclusively to homeland security at the federal, state, and local levels, homelanddefenseradio.com provides information and news that is targeted to homeland security decision makers.
[38:04.200 --> 38:05.580]  Wouldn't that be terrorist, too?
[38:05.580 --> 38:09.600]  I mean, they're the ones that sort of make decisions that, that directly involve homeland security.
[38:10.380 --> 38:11.220]  All right, I won't pursue that.
[38:11.460 --> 38:24.760]  Homeland Defense Radio has partnered with Homeland Defense Journal, Wireless Communications Association, International, and Associated Press, uh, to bring you unparalleled news, information, and resources to a national homeland defense audience.
[38:24.880 --> 38:27.460]  You get the feeling these are a bunch of people out to make money off of this.
[38:27.880 --> 38:29.360]  And that's really what this is all about.
[38:29.980 --> 38:33.260]  Uh, this combination ensures accurate, high-level information.
[38:33.260 --> 38:33.760]  Yes, Mike.
[38:34.060 --> 38:34.760]  Got it to play?
[38:34.900 --> 38:35.060]  Okay.
[38:35.620 --> 38:36.440]  Uh, it's playing now.
[38:37.040 --> 38:39.740]  All right, let's just bring it up, uh, if I can figure out which button to press.
[38:39.880 --> 38:41.280]  ...added to their level of safety.
[38:41.460 --> 38:46.060]  The troops are trading in their old vehicles for 150 new up-armored Humvees.
[38:46.220 --> 38:51.040]  The Humvees come complete with the added armor protection of bulletproof windows and air conditioning.
[38:51.460 --> 38:56.100]  First-cap officials say the up-armored vehicles are essential to units patrolling the streets of Baghdad.
[38:56.100 --> 38:56.580]  Yes, Jim.
[38:56.800 --> 38:58.300]  That woman is way too cheery.
[38:58.620 --> 39:02.640]  ...priorities of army leaders to help protect soldiers serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
[39:03.060 --> 39:04.620]  Well, a glorious victory is at hand.
[39:04.620 --> 39:05.440]  You do know that, don't you?
[39:05.700 --> 39:06.440]  ...millions of dollars...
[39:06.440 --> 39:08.900]  All right, so that's, that's what the website sounds like.
[39:09.140 --> 39:10.300]  ...deploy, how do small...
[39:10.300 --> 39:13.280]  And I guess they just kind of, uh, do all kinds of features.
[39:13.840 --> 39:16.520]  ...Germany to find out how Operation Iraqi Freedom...
[39:16.520 --> 39:26.700]  When, when, when I, when I asked this before, basically it was, um, it was an ad for a conference that was coming up about, uh, Homeland Security, which it probably cost a few thousand dollars to get into.
[39:28.120 --> 39:29.300]  Uh, it's interesting.
[39:29.540 --> 39:30.160]  It's interesting.
[39:30.320 --> 39:32.940]  I, I suggest people listen to it so they find out what these guys are up to.
[39:33.100 --> 39:36.200]  But, uh, it's, uh, it's not government programming.
[39:36.460 --> 39:42.520]  It is propaganda of the sort, but, uh, definitely, uh, something you have to take with, uh, a pillar of salt.
[39:43.520 --> 39:44.080]  All right.
[39:44.440 --> 39:51.400]  Um, someone else wrote in to ask us, uh, why we hated PayPal so much or why specifically why I hated PayPal so much.
[39:51.860 --> 39:53.620]  Um, they never had any problems with it?
[39:53.920 --> 40:04.260]  Well, I direct you to the webpage paypalsucks.com, which is an amazing site with all kinds of updated, uh, gripes and experiences.
[40:04.760 --> 40:08.760]  Um, just to read a little bit about what, uh, what the site stands for.
[40:09.140 --> 40:11.700]  So, what's wrong with PayPal and why is this site here?
[40:11.960 --> 40:17.000]  PayPal Sucks is an anti-PayPal site to expose the nightmare of doing business, the PayPal way.
[40:17.260 --> 40:21.820]  Post your complaints, troubles, fraud stories, lawsuits, and other dissatisfaction in the forums.
[40:22.000 --> 40:26.500]  Read the links and FAQ pages for help in resolving your PayPal troubles and complaints.
[40:26.640 --> 40:33.580]  Read the options page to find an alternative to PayPal, perhaps even get yourself, uh, your own merchant account to access credit cards directly.
[40:33.820 --> 40:46.380]  Uh, to enumerate the complaints, according to PayPal, accepting their terms of service means you waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws and you may not issue a chargeback for unauthorized use of your credit card and PayPal account.
[40:46.600 --> 40:47.460]  Is this legal?
[40:47.640 --> 40:50.060]  We don't know, but it's how PayPal operates.
[40:50.520 --> 40:53.660]  See, uh, the credit card waiver page for more information.
[40:53.880 --> 40:55.660]  Uh, their customer service is horrible.
[40:55.800 --> 41:01.440]  They hide their telephone number intentionally by their own admission and only provides support via form emails.
[41:01.620 --> 41:02.700]  How many companies do that today?
[41:02.880 --> 41:03.420]  Quite a lot.
[41:04.200 --> 41:09.560]  Uh, as for the, uh, customer service, they say they intentionally make the phone number very difficult to find in order to save costs.
[41:10.020 --> 41:13.700]  Uh, if you have a problem, you are at their mercy and you will eventually have a problem.
[41:13.840 --> 41:20.000]  Their number can be found by clicking on help at the bottom of the page and then contact us at the bottom left of their page.
[41:20.440 --> 41:27.540]  Then, customer support inquiries near the middle of the page, then service center under the help by phone towards the bottom middle of the page.
[41:27.540 --> 41:36.880]  There you will find their non-toll-free number or you can click on their FAQ page or on our FAQ page rather and it's right at the top plus their toll-free numbers as well.
[41:37.840 --> 41:42.380]  Uh, their terms of service are not completely disclosed upon sign-up and some key conditions are not disclosed.
[41:42.720 --> 41:47.120]  In no place do they openly tell potential members that their money is 100% at risk.
[41:47.280 --> 41:54.920]  That PayPal can, will, and has in the past completely cleaned out customers' accounts including your checking and savings account with no appeals process available.
[41:55.420 --> 42:00.740]  If PayPal feels your actions are questionable, PayPal is the investigator, judge, jury, and executioner.
[42:00.920 --> 42:03.900]  Telling your side of what happened in most cases seems to be irrelevant.
[42:04.120 --> 42:09.980]  They also refuse to provide you with the details of their investigation and withhold documents they relied upon to make their decisions.
[42:10.300 --> 42:13.960]  Your only contact will be an email that says, thank you for contacting PayPal.
[42:14.160 --> 42:16.880]  We apologize for the delay in responding to your service request.
[42:17.100 --> 42:19.960]  After review, the decision has been made to keep your account locked.
[42:20.180 --> 42:21.780]  This decision cannot be appealed.
[42:21.940 --> 42:24.400]  If you have any further questions, please reply to this email.
[42:24.820 --> 42:26.920]  And that will be it as far as PayPal is concerned.
[42:26.920 --> 42:29.500]  You can email back but you'll just get more of the same.
[42:30.280 --> 42:43.860]  If you are a bona fide upstanding individual with hundreds of successful transactions but someone pays you with a stolen credit card, your account by PayPal's own admission is immediately flagged as being criminal behavior and any money in that account is confiscated.
[42:44.000 --> 42:48.460]  If a customer disputes the charge, the same thing happens and you'll probably get the email above.
[42:49.280 --> 42:54.220]  PayPal's fees for credit card funding are now up to 2.9% plus 35 cents per transaction.
[42:54.500 --> 42:56.740]  A money order costs 50 cents to a dollar.
[42:56.900 --> 43:00.420]  The bank charges most businesses 5 cents to 12 cents per check.
[43:00.580 --> 43:03.200]  A good credit card merchant account is about 2.3%.
[43:03.820 --> 43:06.600]  Plus you can contest chargebacks and you have merchant rights.
[43:06.940 --> 43:09.820]  On a $100 item, PayPal's fee is over $3.
[43:09.960 --> 43:14.020]  At one time, PayPal was the cheapest way to send money but they are now one of the most expensive.
[43:14.220 --> 43:16.960]  Plus, you're totally at their mercy in regards to chargebacks.
[43:17.560 --> 43:21.080]  PayPal's fees for non-credit card funding are the same as for credit cards.
[43:21.260 --> 43:23.400]  This is the single biggest rip-off on their site.
[43:23.600 --> 43:27.500]  We understand PayPal charging a fee when you fund your account with a credit card.
[43:27.600 --> 43:29.600]  After all, they are being charged by Visa MasterCard.
[43:30.000 --> 43:32.340]  And we understand there is a lot of fraud with credit card funding.
[43:32.460 --> 43:36.740]  However, most of the money sent within the PayPal system no longer comes from credit card funding.
[43:36.740 --> 43:43.140]  However, money spent from PayPal account to PayPal account is subject to the exact same fees credit card purchases are.
[43:43.340 --> 43:46.700]  This money has been in the system for years and is quote-unquote clean.
[43:46.940 --> 43:51.580]  That is, there are no fees at all to PayPal and there is almost no fraud at all with this money.
[43:51.660 --> 43:55.680]  But PayPal charges the same fees to transactions with non-credit card funds.
[43:55.840 --> 43:57.760]  Thus, every transaction makes a killing for them.
[43:58.480 --> 44:00.200]  And there's just so much more material here.
[44:00.440 --> 44:03.120]  I don't want to go on and get too much more of a link.
[44:03.200 --> 44:04.240]  Do you have their 800 number?
[44:04.580 --> 44:09.620]  I can get it by following those instructions or simply going to paypalsucks.com.
[44:10.020 --> 44:11.760]  I just thought we'd say it on the air if we knew it.
[44:11.780 --> 44:13.000]  If you would make another trip over here.
[44:13.240 --> 44:18.460]  Let's have Homeland Defense Security Radio come up for a second.
[44:18.660 --> 44:19.380]  No, no, no.
[44:19.440 --> 44:20.500]  I've got something humorous.
[44:20.980 --> 44:21.920]  This isn't humorous?
[44:21.920 --> 44:27.240]  You know, I was there on 9-11 with our previous Governor Gilmore and I've been in the job...
[44:27.240 --> 44:27.860]  Okay, go ahead, Jim.
[44:28.240 --> 44:28.660]  Well, okay.
[44:28.800 --> 44:30.620]  I think it's humorous.
[44:30.740 --> 44:33.280]  You remember the Sherpas of Distinction exploit?
[44:34.140 --> 44:35.320]  You'll have to refresh my memory.
[44:35.500 --> 44:44.560]  Okay, back at NotWork, IBM had a commercial that said pretty much that anybody could and should get a website and they had a Sherpa in the Himalayas.
[44:44.660 --> 44:45.520]  What do you mean back at NotWork?
[44:46.260 --> 44:47.420]  NotWork Development Labs?
[44:47.640 --> 44:48.800]  They had a commercial in there?
[44:48.800 --> 44:55.460]  Well, they had a commercial and one of our friends at NotWork went and got Sherpas of Distinction because...
[44:55.460 --> 44:57.060]  .com because IBM did not.
[44:57.560 --> 45:08.020]  So I was watching television last night and I noticed on 24 they mentioned SylviaImports.com and they also mentioned 257.211.16.5.
[45:08.300 --> 45:10.700]  Well, it turns out that they didn't make that mistake.
[45:11.100 --> 45:13.320]  SylviaImports.com has a cute little message.
[45:13.620 --> 45:15.540]  I don't know what 257 has.
[45:16.320 --> 45:18.240]  It doesn't come up on a web page.
[45:18.240 --> 45:24.300]  However, Law & Order SVU has CatchingTheTrain.com and that's up for grabs.
[45:24.580 --> 45:30.500]  The show said it was a suicide assistance site but it's still an unregistered domain name.
[45:30.640 --> 45:32.040]  So if you are interested...
[45:32.040 --> 45:32.760]  What was the name of that show?
[45:33.020 --> 45:35.680]  Law & Order SVU Special Victims Unit.
[45:36.140 --> 45:37.420]  I always thought that was SUV.
[45:37.780 --> 45:39.080]  It was about idiots driving cars.
[45:39.380 --> 45:39.860]  No?
[45:40.580 --> 45:41.060]  Okay.
[45:41.220 --> 45:42.620]  I don't watch it so I don't know.
[45:42.680 --> 45:47.060]  So they put up and they're all CatchingTheTrain.com but there's no website associated.
[45:47.700 --> 45:48.100]  Okay.
[45:48.180 --> 45:51.020]  We have the toll-free number but let's verify first that it works.
[45:51.100 --> 45:51.840]  Lynn, are you still there?
[45:53.080 --> 45:53.440]  Okay.
[45:53.660 --> 45:54.720]  We heard the S of your yes.
[45:55.040 --> 46:03.540]  So we're going to three-way you to a dial tone here so don't be concerned but it might bring back memories of home because that's what the dial tone sounds like over here.
[46:03.700 --> 46:07.780]  And we're going to try this toll-free number before we give it out to make sure it's accurate.
[46:08.360 --> 46:08.920]  All right.
[46:17.790 --> 46:18.990]  Nobody can decode that, right?
[46:19.510 --> 46:19.910]  Okay.
[46:25.160 --> 46:26.080]  Welcome to PayPal.
[46:26.480 --> 46:26.820]  Okay.
[46:27.040 --> 46:28.640]  I think we got him.
[46:28.760 --> 46:29.120]  We got him.
[46:29.280 --> 46:29.520]  Okay.
[46:29.700 --> 46:32.400]  So let's get back to Lynn over here.
[46:34.160 --> 46:34.800]  Lynn, are you there?
[46:36.540 --> 46:36.880]  Okay.
[46:36.920 --> 46:38.660]  We didn't even hear the S that time but I think you're there.
[46:39.640 --> 46:39.980]  Okay.
[46:40.100 --> 46:43.460]  So the number is 888-221-1161.
[46:44.200 --> 46:44.680]  All right.
[46:44.780 --> 46:47.560]  That is PayPal's toll-free number so now you know how to reach them.
[46:48.600 --> 47:03.980]  Their regular number in case they disconnect that at the end of this hour 650-864-8000 and you can also reach them at a bunch of other numbers but they're all put on paypalsucks.com and I had my own personal experience with them.
[47:04.040 --> 47:04.620]  I won't get into that.
[47:04.700 --> 47:07.860]  I talked about it on the radio already but that's what led me to...
[47:07.860 --> 47:16.280]  I didn't know anybody else was complaining about them at the time and I found out there was a whole civilization of people out there that had horrible experiences and lost a lot of money.
[47:16.400 --> 47:23.980]  So that's the answer the long answer to the question as to why we criticized them last week.
[47:24.480 --> 47:26.080]  Okay, shall we take phone calls?
[47:26.620 --> 47:27.040]  We should.
[47:27.300 --> 47:28.380]  Alright, I'm sorry, your mic is on.
[47:29.200 --> 47:30.020]  Yeah, we should.
[47:30.500 --> 47:42.100]  212-209-2900 is our phone number and Lynn is with us from Switzerland talking to us over Vonage and you can hear him occasionally too.
[47:42.260 --> 47:42.840]  Bad for them.
[47:43.080 --> 47:43.760]  What was that?
[47:45.180 --> 47:47.140]  Really a good ad for them if you want.
[47:48.340 --> 48:00.220]  That's not the best of ads, no, I'm sure they could probably come up with a better one but, well, I mean, when you think of what we're doing here, you're communicating with us over the net through foreign countries and paying very little for it.
[48:02.040 --> 48:08.700]  So we shouldn't be complaining even when we can't hear each other, we shouldn't be complaining about that and hopefully this will be a lot better in the future.
[48:08.980 --> 48:10.840]  You know, I cannot talk to you for free.
[48:11.560 --> 48:11.880]  Yeah.
[48:12.080 --> 48:14.000]  You know, a lot of people paid a lot more money.
[48:15.400 --> 48:22.880]  I think what he's trying to say is a lot of people paid a lot more money back in the early days of the phone company and they got worse service and still do to this day sometimes.
[48:24.880 --> 48:25.200]  Yeah.
[48:25.460 --> 48:25.660]  Okay.
[48:25.680 --> 48:26.480]  Not hearing any no's.
[48:26.580 --> 48:27.500]  I think that's what he was saying.
[48:29.020 --> 48:30.320]  Let's take some calls here.
[48:30.440 --> 48:31.960]  212-209-2900.
[48:32.140 --> 48:32.520]  And good evening.
[48:32.640 --> 48:33.180]  You're on Off the Hook.
[48:33.720 --> 48:34.000]  Yeah.
[48:34.160 --> 48:36.540]  I have a question regarding hamburger meat.
[48:37.600 --> 48:38.160]  Hamburger meat?
[48:38.640 --> 48:38.960]  Yeah.
[48:39.160 --> 48:39.740]  I want to know.
[48:39.820 --> 48:42.880]  I have a thermometer and I have it in some hamburger meat right now.
[48:43.080 --> 48:44.680]  I think we're getting the Z100 listeners again.
[48:45.620 --> 48:47.100]  Move your dial a little bit to the right.
[48:47.360 --> 48:48.240]  That's all you got to do.
[48:49.340 --> 48:49.760]  All right?
[48:49.860 --> 48:52.760]  I just want to know how warm I should make this meat.
[48:53.920 --> 48:56.220]  Well, I think 155 degrees.
[48:57.720 --> 48:58.360]  155 degrees.
[48:59.480 --> 49:00.740]  Lynn, how did you happen to know that?
[49:02.180 --> 49:02.700]  Don't ask.
[49:02.800 --> 49:03.000]  All right.
[49:03.060 --> 49:03.740]  I'm not going to ask.
[49:04.040 --> 49:05.260]  I'm not going to thank you for that call, sir.
[49:05.460 --> 49:05.800]  Thank you.
[49:06.000 --> 49:07.180]  Is that Celsius or Fahrenheit?
[49:07.180 --> 49:07.600]  Oh, no.
[49:07.680 --> 49:08.360]  I lost Lynn.
[49:08.820 --> 49:09.420]  You know why?
[49:09.480 --> 49:10.820]  Because Lynn wasn't on the special line.
[49:11.120 --> 49:11.860]  Oh, my goodness.
[49:11.980 --> 49:13.160]  It's going to take him three minutes to hear this.
[49:13.920 --> 49:16.440]  Well, you know, there's nothing I can do about that, unfortunately.
[49:16.700 --> 49:18.440]  We'll never know if that was Celsius or Fahrenheit.
[49:18.660 --> 49:20.460]  If we get another cooking question, we're doomed.
[49:20.700 --> 49:20.880]  Yeah.
[49:21.460 --> 49:21.920]  Sorry, Lynn.
[49:22.060 --> 49:22.840]  I'm really sorry about that.
[49:23.700 --> 49:24.260]  Oh, well.
[49:24.360 --> 49:24.600]  Good evening.
[49:24.680 --> 49:25.080]  You're on the air.
[49:25.940 --> 49:26.560]  Go ahead.
[49:27.560 --> 49:28.000]  Yes, hi.
[49:28.180 --> 49:28.300]  Hi.
[49:29.100 --> 49:38.520]  As far as PayPal goes for protecting oneself as a buyer when sending money on PayPal, there is a way to do it.
[49:39.440 --> 49:45.240]  It does risk the loss of the account, but it's better than losing the money.
[49:46.260 --> 49:46.680]  Okay.
[49:46.680 --> 49:50.460]  If you pay...
[49:50.460 --> 50:10.420]  If you have a bank account registered with PayPal and a credit card as the backup funding source, and basically the bank account is near zero balance, any payment that you make with that bank account winds up getting kicked back to the credit card.
[50:11.480 --> 50:22.780]  And it takes them a couple of days to put through the EFT and figure out that in fact they can't take the money from the bank account and they're going to have to take it from the credit card.
[50:23.140 --> 50:23.300]  Okay.
[50:23.780 --> 50:34.800]  And that gives you a window of time during which if the transaction's going south, you can remove the credit card information from their site.
[50:35.940 --> 50:37.340]  And they won't have a copy of it?
[50:38.760 --> 50:40.720]  They don't wind up charging the card.
[50:42.540 --> 50:42.960]  Okay.
[50:43.300 --> 50:44.520]  They will freeze the account.
[50:45.180 --> 50:48.740]  Are you sure they don't wind up charging the card though because that information was on their site?
[50:49.100 --> 50:50.320]  Been there, done that.
[50:50.560 --> 50:50.760]  Really?
[50:50.900 --> 50:51.100]  Okay.
[50:51.320 --> 50:51.540]  Yes.
[50:52.040 --> 50:54.140]  Well, maybe you won't be able to do it again after they hear this.
[50:54.140 --> 50:54.760]  No, you can't.
[50:55.480 --> 51:07.840]  Well, the account does wind up getting frozen, but if it was a sizable transaction, it's worth protecting yourself.
[51:08.380 --> 51:09.640]  And that's what it's all about.
[51:09.800 --> 51:11.880]  We're not talking about ways to defraud them, obviously.
[51:12.060 --> 51:15.620]  We're talking about ways to protect yourself as an individual either selling or buying.
[51:16.440 --> 51:25.140]  And it's just very frustrating when you realize that these guys take control of money that you've put into this and that is yours.
[51:25.540 --> 51:26.020]  Exactly.
[51:26.220 --> 51:26.780]  Very frustrating.
[51:27.080 --> 51:27.220]  All right.
[51:27.320 --> 51:28.460]  Thanks for the suggestion.
[51:28.960 --> 51:29.300]  All right.
[51:29.600 --> 51:29.820]  Bye.
[51:30.140 --> 51:31.140]  And let's
[51:34.800 --> 51:35.280]  who's this?
[51:36.060 --> 51:37.680]  This is Peter coming from Queens.
[51:37.900 --> 51:38.200]  Okay.
[51:38.220 --> 51:39.360]  Sound like you're coming from far away.
[51:40.220 --> 51:42.200]  No, I'm using this style.
[51:43.000 --> 51:50.300]  I have Vonage also, but by default, the Vonage is set to low quality on their website.
[51:50.300 --> 51:53.760]  I mean, you could change the setting.
[51:55.140 --> 52:05.580]  Sign on to their website and go into your account and you could set the quality to high, which requires, I believe, 90k upload.
[52:05.940 --> 52:15.040]  And I've been using that, communicating with people from China and it was better than any long distance carrier that I had before.
[52:15.300 --> 52:18.000]  And there's no additional charge to do this?
[52:18.200 --> 52:19.120]  No, no.
[52:19.120 --> 52:31.040]  Actually, you just sign on to the website, go into your account, and under the control panel, you could set the quality of the device, ATA.
[52:31.540 --> 52:38.880]  And after you do that, you unplug the device and plug it back in to update itself, and the quality is perfect.
[52:39.160 --> 52:44.840]  Okay, well, if Lin is out there listening, I don't have time to do it this time, but I'm sure he already did, but we'll see if that makes any difference.
[52:45.020 --> 52:46.120]  Thanks for the suggestion.
[52:46.480 --> 52:47.060]  No problem.
[52:47.520 --> 52:53.700]  Of course, if you have limited bandwidth, they could have a net effect of reducing the quality as packets get dropped.
[52:54.040 --> 52:56.840]  Yeah, well, of course, you have to have sufficient bandwidth to do this in the first place.
[52:57.120 --> 52:59.820]  A lot of people don't have sufficient bandwidth to even do low quality.
[53:00.920 --> 53:02.280]  So I guess it depends.
[53:02.920 --> 53:03.720]  I've been trying...
[53:03.840 --> 53:05.520]  they'll have to use telephones to make their phone calls.
[53:05.720 --> 53:06.260]  Yeah, they will.
[53:07.220 --> 53:20.720]  I've been trying to get a Vonage number in Canada, because you can get virtual numbers up in Canada, which means that people can call you on a Canadian number and it'll go to you, but you can't get an actual phone number that will go to other people with a Canadian area code.
[53:21.180 --> 53:29.140]  Now, I'm trying to create sort of a dual citizenship thing here, so I can make phone calls from my house and make like I'm in Canada.
[53:29.280 --> 53:31.140]  You know, I think it's just kind of cool, and I want to see if I can do it.
[53:31.240 --> 53:42.720]  So I went to Vonage.ca, which is the Canadian equivalent of Vonage.com, and there they have the exact opposite where you can only get Canadian phone numbers, but you can only get virtual United States numbers.
[53:42.820 --> 53:49.960]  In other words, you can call a United States number and be routed to somebody in Canada, however, they cannot call you and make it appear they're in the States.
[53:50.180 --> 54:03.200]  However, if I'm able to fool them somehow into thinking that I'm in Canada, I can get a Canadian phone number, and I'm not sure yet if it'll work here, if there's some kind of incompatibility or something might get tripped up someplace.
[54:03.640 --> 54:17.140]  But I didn't get very far because on the page where you register, you have to enter your credit card information, and unfortunately, the billing address for the credit card must also be in Canada, not just the shipping address where they send you your special piece of equipment,
[54:17.300 --> 54:19.460]  but the billing address cannot be in the United States.
[54:19.820 --> 54:26.160]  I tried putting it in anyway, you know, and seeing if it just might go through and got flagged by the computer.
[54:26.160 --> 54:27.640]  I tried putting in the U.S.
[54:27.740 --> 54:32.700]  zip code and it just threw it right back because the zip code had no letters in it.
[54:33.180 --> 54:35.320]  And I called them and they said, nope, sorry, we can't do that.
[54:35.540 --> 54:39.300]  So if anybody knows a way around that, I'd be curious to know if that's possible.
[54:39.500 --> 54:43.980]  Well, you can probably buy one of these prepaid debit type things in Canada.
[54:44.820 --> 54:45.220]  Okay.
[54:45.480 --> 54:46.540]  Yeah, that's been suggested too.
[54:46.880 --> 54:47.900]  How would that work exactly?
[54:48.140 --> 54:48.620]  I don't know.
[54:48.860 --> 54:49.560]  Oh, okay.
[54:49.820 --> 54:54.680]  Well, I think the way it works is you just buy a credit card of sorts.
[54:55.340 --> 55:01.020]  You pay in advance for it and it operates just like a credit card and you can set your address to be almost anywhere.
[55:01.420 --> 55:02.540]  I think that's how it works.
[55:02.580 --> 55:05.340]  I've never done it, but I'm curious if that can actually work.
[55:05.400 --> 55:07.300]  The only disadvantage with that is you have to keep it filled.
[55:07.520 --> 55:12.820]  You can't have a monthly billing cycle dipping into this thing if the money's not there.
[55:13.720 --> 55:14.040]  All right.
[55:14.140 --> 55:14.740]  So you got a phone call.
[55:14.820 --> 55:15.120]  Good evening.
[55:15.120 --> 55:15.760]  You're on the air.
[55:17.460 --> 55:18.040]  Go ahead.
[55:19.760 --> 55:20.160]  Yes.
[55:20.380 --> 55:20.800]  Is this Lynn?
[55:21.660 --> 55:22.760]  I got back through.
[55:22.920 --> 55:23.140]  Wow.
[55:23.200 --> 55:23.960]  How about that?
[55:24.040 --> 55:27.280]  Well, you know, you have enough time to say goodbye and all that because we're about out of time.
[55:27.620 --> 55:29.580]  I'm sorry about that hanging up on you before.
[55:30.080 --> 55:30.780]  No problem.
[55:30.980 --> 55:35.060]  One of the things I just heard the guy say about adjusting the bandwidth.
[55:35.320 --> 55:36.800]  Cannot do that on the soft phone.
[55:36.980 --> 55:37.580]  I already tried it.
[55:37.800 --> 55:38.880]  Can't do it on the soft phone.
[55:39.340 --> 55:39.620]  Nope.
[55:40.300 --> 55:40.660]  Okay.
[55:41.360 --> 55:44.420]  You know, it works a lot better from home on TA.
[55:44.420 --> 55:45.300]  I don't know why.
[55:45.940 --> 55:50.480]  I was going to say, too, you sound a lot better, but then you started not sounding as good.
[55:51.480 --> 55:52.460]  Good night, everybody.
[55:52.740 --> 55:52.980]  All right.
[55:53.080 --> 55:53.460]  Thanks, Lynn.
[55:53.640 --> 55:54.120]  Lynn.
[55:54.220 --> 55:54.860]  Sorry, I keep calling you Lynn.
[55:55.220 --> 55:58.720]  Thanks for calling in and demonstrating this for us.
[55:58.820 --> 56:01.220]  And hopefully we'll hear from you when you're back in the States.
[56:02.140 --> 56:02.720]  All right.
[56:03.140 --> 56:10.160]  And that's Lynn talking to us from somewhere in Switzerland where tanks greet airplanes and other fun things happen.
[56:10.920 --> 56:12.080]  And that's it for us for this week.
[56:12.200 --> 56:13.420]  Stay tuned for the personal computer show.
[56:13.740 --> 56:16.880]  By the way, a few of us are going to be at the Trenton Computer Festival this Saturday.
[56:17.420 --> 56:19.240]  I think we're giving a talk at one o'clock or something.
[56:19.680 --> 56:20.840]  So hopefully we'll see you there.
[56:21.020 --> 56:21.980]  If not, next week.
[56:22.280 --> 56:22.840]  Have a good night.
[56:22.840 --> 56:45.460]  We'll be right back.
[56:52.840 --> 56:57.460]  My life left it between Ceuta and Gibraltar.
[56:57.860 --> 57:02.500]  I am a ray in the sea, phantasm in the sea.
[57:03.720 --> 57:08.220]  My life is prohibited, says the authority.
[57:09.680 --> 57:14.880]  I'm only going with my pain, only my condemnation.
[57:14.880 --> 57:19.800]  Correr in my destiny, for not taking paper.
[57:20.700 --> 57:25.440]  I'm lost in the heart of the great Babylon.
[57:26.000 --> 57:31.660]  They say in the clandestine, I am the quebralei.
[57:31.800 --> 57:37.260]  Black man, clandestine, peruano, clandestine.