[00:00.520 --> 00:01.540]  Stewart stood up.
[00:01.720 --> 00:04.960]  She's in the dock now for vigorously defending her client.
[00:05.180 --> 00:06.200]  She needs your help.
[00:06.360 --> 00:15.260]  We invite you to come down Monday through Thursday, Federal Court, 40 Center Street, in the Ceremonial Courtroom, which some of us call the Show Trial Courtroom.
[00:15.660 --> 00:18.760]  We at Law & Disorder thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:19.040 --> 00:22.560]  I'm Heidi Bogosian, Executive Director of the National Lawyers Guild.
[00:22.800 --> 00:26.200]  I'm Michael Ratner, President of the Center for Constitutional Rights.
[00:26.440 --> 00:29.360]  And I'm Michael Stephen Smith, New York City Attorney and Author.
[00:34.810 --> 00:41.730]  You've been listening to a special version of Law & Disorder produced by Jeff Brady with help from Jackson Allers.
[00:45.920 --> 00:51.020]  And now coming up is a special edition of Off the Hook.
[00:55.050 --> 00:59.590]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:00.510 --> 01:05.090]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:05.710 --> 01:10.430]  We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:10.710 --> 01:13.350]  From Diddley Bom for the best, expect the worst.
[01:13.890 --> 01:15.850]  I hope that's understood.
[01:16.050 --> 01:16.830]  From Diddley Bom!
[01:37.410 --> 01:43.310]  And a very good evening to everybody from the Hotel Pennsylvania, New York.
[01:53.530 --> 02:04.630]  We're live on WBAI New York, and we're live here at the hotel at the Fifth Hope Conference here in New York City, which began with a bang this morning and has been going ever since.
[02:05.430 --> 02:06.730]  Tons of people have shown up.
[02:06.850 --> 02:08.530]  We've had all kinds of good talks all throughout the day.
[02:08.750 --> 02:14.030]  And now a special edition of our weekly radio program coming to you live here for the next two hours.
[02:14.470 --> 02:18.630]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein, and we have up here on the panel with us...
[02:18.630 --> 02:19.310]  Gosh.
[02:19.490 --> 02:20.490]  Well, Bernie, you're here live.
[02:20.490 --> 02:21.070]  How are you doing?
[02:21.530 --> 02:22.070]  Say hi.
[02:22.170 --> 02:22.870]  You're usually on the phone.
[02:23.310 --> 02:25.990]  I probably sound much better not over Sprint PCS.
[02:31.380 --> 02:33.840]  Can we get this opportunity again?
[02:33.900 --> 02:35.780]  Can we get a rousing chorus of Sprint Sucks?
[02:36.520 --> 02:37.520]  Sprint Sucks!
[02:38.280 --> 02:39.080]  All right, there you go.
[02:40.180 --> 02:42.080]  I hope some Sprint executive is listening.
[02:44.100 --> 02:45.300]  And Porkchop is here.
[02:45.620 --> 02:46.260]  Say hi, Porkchop.
[02:46.420 --> 02:46.940]  Hello, everyone.
[02:47.740 --> 02:48.500]  And Mike.
[02:48.880 --> 02:49.580]  Hey there.
[02:50.120 --> 02:50.580]  Red Hacked.
[02:50.900 --> 02:51.440]  What's up?
[02:52.180 --> 02:53.320]  And who are we here for you, Jeff?
[02:53.720 --> 02:54.480]  Yes, good evening.
[02:54.780 --> 02:55.240]  And Jim.
[02:55.500 --> 02:55.980]  Hello.
[02:56.340 --> 02:56.960]  And Laszlo.
[02:57.140 --> 02:57.400]  Hello.
[02:57.680 --> 02:57.960]  Okay.
[02:58.840 --> 03:02.140]  Well, basically, what we're going to do tonight is we'll talk for a little bit ourselves.
[03:02.380 --> 03:05.580]  We have a whole bunch of special guests who will be popping up.
[03:05.640 --> 03:07.540]  Of course, I have bright lights on me, so I can't see anything.
[03:07.780 --> 03:11.040]  So the people out there managing the special guests come up.
[03:12.340 --> 03:13.640]  Okay, now I have sunglasses on.
[03:13.720 --> 03:14.700]  I really can't see a thing.
[03:14.820 --> 03:15.520]  That's like...
[03:17.740 --> 03:20.500]  Just lead them up, and we'll put them on.
[03:20.660 --> 03:22.300]  And we'll take questions from the audience.
[03:22.340 --> 03:28.560]  I don't think we can take questions on the phone tonight because, well, we have limited intelligence, and there's only so much we can do at once.
[03:29.340 --> 03:30.540]  Sorry, it's just the way it goes.
[03:32.080 --> 03:36.040]  This is kind of a momentous occasion for us because so many things have happened at once.
[03:36.600 --> 03:40.260]  This is the 20th anniversary of 2600 Magazine, if you can believe that.
[03:49.170 --> 04:03.570]  And I'll tell you, if when we started this thing back in 1984 by sneaking into offices late at night and Xeroxing pieces of paper so we could send them to about 20 people, if I ever thought at that time it was going to get to the stage where we were seen on newsstands and on the radio and having conferences,
[04:03.570 --> 04:05.710]  I never, ever would have believed it.
[04:07.270 --> 04:14.770]  But here we are, and it's the 10th anniversary of our first conference, which was called Hackers on Planet Earth, back in 1994, in this very space.
[04:15.510 --> 04:17.130]  How many of you were here for that?
[04:17.950 --> 04:18.750]  Oh, good number.
[04:18.910 --> 04:19.250]  Good number.
[04:19.410 --> 04:20.130]  The rest of you can clap.
[04:20.150 --> 04:20.490]  Go ahead.
[04:26.270 --> 04:28.870]  So, yeah, it's a milestone as far as that goes.
[04:29.410 --> 04:36.250]  And then, of course, yesterday, actually today, officially the Freedom Downtime DVD finally was released.
[04:36.910 --> 04:37.870]  So, that's...
[04:40.470 --> 04:43.790]  Now, this is only how many years after it was filmed?
[04:44.070 --> 04:48.050]  Well, it was filmed, the actual footage was taken in 1998.
[04:48.330 --> 04:51.210]  And yes, they made Star Wars in less time, I realize that.
[04:52.550 --> 04:57.610]  We had time to edit the thing, and of course, we did some more shooting, and we waited until Kevin was out of prison.
[04:58.110 --> 05:02.410]  But the DVD, we've actually added a whole lot of features, and new languages, and things like that.
[05:03.470 --> 05:06.030]  Actually, Portshot, maybe you can address the whole editing process.
[05:06.190 --> 05:07.290]  That sure took a long time, didn't it?
[05:07.410 --> 05:09.410]  The editing process took a very long time.
[05:10.110 --> 05:11.810]  It's amazing from...
[05:12.350 --> 05:14.470]  We had a huge machine at the time.
[05:14.590 --> 05:27.430]  At the time, we had, I think it was a 100 gigabyte RAID array, and another 100 gigabytes of non-RAID storage, and a really fast 333 megahertz Macintosh.
[05:27.430 --> 05:31.990]  Running, I think it was like OSH, I think we'd just gone from 7 to 8, or something like that.
[05:32.110 --> 05:33.290]  It was one of the upgrades.
[05:33.570 --> 05:34.090]  It's a G3.
[05:34.090 --> 05:34.770]  It was really nice.
[05:34.930 --> 05:35.990]  It was a very nice machine.
[05:35.990 --> 05:38.470]  It was the biggest machine I had ever used in my life.
[05:39.650 --> 05:42.390]  And now I have a 1 terabyte array, and you know.
[05:43.410 --> 05:44.970]  But we're not editing movies, you know?
[05:45.010 --> 05:45.610]  That's the thing.
[05:45.730 --> 05:49.850]  We're editing movies on these pieces of equipment that, at the time, were state-of-the-art.
[05:50.090 --> 05:56.770]  When we made the movie, we didn't know how we were going to edit it, because we certainly couldn't afford the professional editing systems.
[05:56.810 --> 05:58.150]  We couldn't even afford to rent them.
[05:58.670 --> 05:59.750]  So we had no idea.
[05:59.970 --> 06:06.010]  And then this program called EditDV came along, and we sure learned a lot about that program and its limitations.
[06:06.350 --> 06:08.370]  It was good, and it was bad at the same time.
[06:08.490 --> 06:09.530]  It was good that we got our stuff done.
[06:09.530 --> 06:11.670]  It was bad that it had bugs at every turn.
[06:11.870 --> 06:14.510]  It gave us hope, and then took it away.
[06:14.510 --> 06:20.490]  But the important thing is, we got through it and finished it, and hopefully it all works.
[06:20.610 --> 06:22.030]  So enjoy if you get a copy.
[06:22.830 --> 06:27.010]  So there's that milestone, and of course, just having Kevin Mitnick here for the first time ever.
[06:35.480 --> 06:36.480]  Let me tell you the story.
[06:37.540 --> 06:41.840]  1994, at the first conference at the Hotel Pennsylvania, Kevin was on the run.
[06:42.280 --> 06:47.380]  He was being pursued by the FBI and all kinds of law enforcement agencies for violating his probation.
[06:47.640 --> 06:49.020]  And he didn't want to go back to prison.
[06:49.020 --> 06:51.460]  Didn't want to go back to the eight-month solitary type of a thing.
[06:51.660 --> 06:57.460]  So he was living a double life and having somebody else's name, I think, in North Carolina at that point.
[06:58.140 --> 06:59.640]  And he would call occasionally.
[06:59.680 --> 07:05.360]  While we were having our first conference, he would call us on the wall phones of the hotel.
[07:05.380 --> 07:07.840]  I don't know how he transferred himself to the wall phones, but he did it.
[07:08.340 --> 07:11.460]  And he would ask how the conference was going, and boy, I really wish I could be there.
[07:11.560 --> 07:12.800]  Too bad I'm not there, you know.
[07:12.900 --> 07:15.040]  But if I showed up, of course, they'd arrest me on the spot.
[07:15.540 --> 07:15.860]  Emmanuel?
[07:16.100 --> 07:16.280]  Yes.
[07:16.280 --> 07:23.340]  You may recall that we had a lot of people wearing Kevin Mitnick masks at our first HOPE conference here in 94.
[07:23.760 --> 07:24.860]  Did you make those masks?
[07:24.940 --> 07:25.320]  I did.
[07:26.320 --> 07:27.700]  They were actually...
[07:28.440 --> 07:30.220]  Kevin, I apologize for you.
[07:30.320 --> 07:32.440]  I had to take that picture of you from the New York Times.
[07:32.800 --> 07:34.560]  And it was the only picture I could get of you.
[07:34.940 --> 07:38.960]  And this was after the whole Agent Steele arrest at...
[07:38.960 --> 07:39.900]  What was that, DEF CON?
[07:40.100 --> 07:40.480]  They were looking...
[07:40.480 --> 07:42.400]  The FBI was looking for you and arrested the wrong guy.
[07:42.400 --> 07:46.620]  No, that actually was the electronic privacy or something.
[07:46.960 --> 07:47.360]  Okay.
[07:47.780 --> 07:48.740]  Some other conference.
[07:48.980 --> 07:49.860]  They were all there.
[07:50.040 --> 07:51.840]  It wasn't a hacker conference.
[07:51.960 --> 07:53.440]  It was a computer privacy conference.
[07:54.160 --> 07:57.760]  And the FBI actually tried to make some arrests there.
[07:57.900 --> 08:02.380]  So the person they arrested had a similar sounding name to Kevin's handle.
[08:02.500 --> 08:03.280]  What was the...
[08:03.280 --> 08:04.360]  Here's the thing, okay.
[08:04.520 --> 08:07.960]  There were three people that got interrogated there.
[08:08.200 --> 08:10.320]  Actually, it was called Computers, Freedom, and Privacy.
[08:10.320 --> 08:12.040]  And about the only thing they had was computers.
[08:12.460 --> 08:13.860]  They didn't have the freedom or the privacy.
[08:14.040 --> 08:15.140]  It took place in Chicago.
[08:15.800 --> 08:18.680]  And three people were harassed.
[08:18.720 --> 08:20.840]  And this was the first we had heard that Kevin was on the run.
[08:21.660 --> 08:26.620]  A person who looked like Kevin, who lived in New York, was questioned right away.
[08:26.740 --> 08:28.320]  These people are real keystone cops.
[08:28.480 --> 08:30.020]  Someone looked like Kevin, they got questioned.
[08:30.740 --> 08:39.640]  This guy who looked like Agent Steele, Agent Steele being a federal informant that had been trying to get Kevin arrested for years, but then had also gone on the run himself.
[08:40.520 --> 08:42.160]  Somebody who looked like him was questioned.
[08:42.320 --> 08:47.220]  And they actually asked if they could see his leg, because Agent Steele has a wooden leg, apparently.
[08:47.680 --> 08:49.980]  So that was their way of knowing if it was him or not.
[08:50.120 --> 08:56.200]  And then, the best one, they questioned our own Robert Steele, ex-CIA intelligence expert.
[08:56.200 --> 08:57.020]  Our first speaker today.
[08:57.240 --> 08:58.620]  Who was going to be on the show, I believe.
[08:59.560 --> 09:01.500]  And he was Agent Steele, I guess.
[09:01.580 --> 09:02.620]  And they got confused.
[09:03.800 --> 09:05.720]  They thought it was the other Agent Steele.
[09:05.720 --> 09:06.360]  Well, I don't know.
[09:07.020 --> 09:11.320]  So, yeah, they came and they questioned a whole lot of people, but they never found Kevin.
[09:12.020 --> 09:15.220]  In 1997, of course, they did find Kevin later, but not at that time.
[09:15.820 --> 09:16.220]  1997...
[09:16.220 --> 09:23.900]  To help the FBI with their search, we had many people wearing Kevin Mitnick masks here, just to show that a lot of people look like Kevin.
[09:24.180 --> 09:25.240]  That's right, that's right.
[09:25.840 --> 09:34.560]  I remember, in fact, Robert Steele was giving the keynote speech back then, 1994, and about eight of you came up with the masks, and he got really scared seeing this happen.
[09:35.020 --> 09:36.260]  It's on video, too, somewhere.
[09:37.220 --> 09:38.660]  1997 was Beyond Hope.
[09:38.800 --> 09:39.880]  How many of you were at Beyond Hope?
[09:40.660 --> 09:41.720]  Okay, good.
[09:42.060 --> 09:44.460]  That's a, you know, a handful, but it's a good handful.
[09:45.160 --> 09:46.220]  He was in prison then.
[09:46.340 --> 09:49.140]  Again, he called us on my cell phone, somehow collect.
[09:49.140 --> 09:52.120]  I don't know how he did that, but said, you know, it's too bad.
[09:52.120 --> 09:52.980]  I wish I was there.
[09:53.200 --> 09:54.940]  Same thing, same speech, different scenery.
[09:56.200 --> 09:58.740]  And then in 2000, he was out of prison.
[09:58.940 --> 10:00.720]  He had been released in January of 2000.
[10:01.420 --> 10:03.580]  And, in fact, we had the premiere of Freedom Downtime.
[10:03.620 --> 10:05.240]  How many of you were at the premiere of Freedom Downtime?
[10:05.320 --> 10:06.320]  That six-hour marathon.
[10:08.440 --> 10:15.080]  Most of it was trying to figure out how to get the video to work properly, but once we did that, that was a very rare version because we only showed that version once.
[10:15.080 --> 10:16.540]  We did some further editing after that.
[10:16.600 --> 10:17.000]  Right, Portshaw?
[10:17.180 --> 10:21.640]  Yeah, we cut out a few scenes to shorten it a little bit, a couple of the unnecessary bits.
[10:21.800 --> 10:25.000]  Yeah, but a lot of those scenes are back in the DVD, so you can see it there if you want.
[10:25.760 --> 10:28.860]  Again, Kevin was invited to attend the premiere of the film.
[10:29.040 --> 10:34.660]  They wouldn't let him do that as part of a supervised release, so, again, I got the call from him saying he wished he could be here, but couldn't.
[10:35.100 --> 10:36.580]  And then same thing in 2002.
[10:36.940 --> 10:38.040]  They wouldn't let him travel.
[10:38.880 --> 10:41.340]  His supervised release ran out in January of 2003.
[10:41.500 --> 10:42.660]  Here we are in 2004.
[10:43.260 --> 10:45.820]  Nothing stopped him from being here, and he gave a great keynote this afternoon.
[10:46.400 --> 10:50.620]  And, boy, you know, I've seen keynotes here, and I don't think I've ever seen one as packed.
[10:50.620 --> 10:55.560]  We had all three rooms in a row just packed with people, and it was great.
[10:56.160 --> 10:58.180]  So that's what we've been at so far.
[10:58.300 --> 11:01.460]  We've had a whole lot of other talks as well, and a whole lot more scheduled.
[11:01.680 --> 11:10.660]  So if you're out there listening in radio land and you want to come down, it's not too late to book a plane ticket or just run down the street if you're in New York already and come to the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[11:10.660 --> 11:13.920]  It's across the street from Madison Square Garden and Penn Station.
[11:14.340 --> 11:18.720]  And there's a whole weekend left, Friday and Saturday, and Sunday, too.
[11:19.040 --> 11:20.260]  We still have things going on until midnight.
[11:20.960 --> 11:21.800]  And we have the movie room.
[11:21.900 --> 11:24.600]  Red Hack, tell us about the movie room that's going on all night long.
[11:25.320 --> 11:30.700]  Well, the movie room, we've been running movies, documentaries, all sorts of films all day.
[11:30.940 --> 11:34.720]  I've seen quite a few people in there, and they seem to have enjoyed the films.
[11:35.540 --> 11:36.800]  Overnight, we'll still be running.
[11:37.380 --> 11:40.960]  From 2.30 to 8, we will be taking requests.
[11:41.240 --> 11:50.260]  You can, you know, if you have a movie with you or if you'd like to see something that you missed or, you know, anything that you'd like to request, you can come by and say, you know, I'm awake.
[11:52.300 --> 11:53.540]  Could you play this for it?
[11:53.680 --> 11:55.080]  And we'll play it for you.
[11:55.460 --> 11:56.480]  But Red Hack, I'm confused.
[11:56.620 --> 12:00.580]  Are there so many films that we can actually run this thing 24 hours?
[12:01.180 --> 12:02.340]  Yeah, there's a ton of films.
[12:03.140 --> 12:04.140]  You know, we...
[12:04.140 --> 12:04.860]  What kind of things?
[12:04.900 --> 12:05.780]  What have we shown so far?
[12:05.960 --> 12:12.760]  Well, so far, we've shown Hippies from Hell, which is a documentary about a Dutch group.
[12:13.040 --> 12:13.840]  A lot of...
[12:13.840 --> 12:15.900]  Actually, a bunch of the people here were in it.
[12:17.180 --> 12:20.840]  Also, we've shown a Norwegian film, NYC Hackers.
[12:22.280 --> 12:23.240]  What else have we shown?
[12:23.660 --> 12:26.220]  We're going to be showing Revolution OS tomorrow.
[12:27.100 --> 12:28.720]  We're going to be showing...
[12:29.880 --> 12:30.920]  Pirate Video 9.
[12:31.020 --> 12:32.680]  Pirate Video 9 tomorrow when we get it.
[12:32.900 --> 12:34.860]  It's coming on a train from Amtrak right now.
[12:35.340 --> 12:46.960]  We have a documentary that was filmed at H2K2, but it's on its server in Austria on a 600 megabyte DIVX image.
[12:47.160 --> 12:51.840]  If anyone at the conference can volunteer to download that and burn it onto a CD, we can show that tomorrow.
[12:53.660 --> 13:00.940]  Also, we have tonight at midnight a bunch of interesting movies that you gave, one of them being Ma Bell and Her Delinquent Children.
[13:01.180 --> 13:02.480]  You want to elaborate a bit on that?
[13:02.780 --> 13:04.140]  Ma Bell and Her Delinquent Children.
[13:04.300 --> 13:06.500]  Someone gave that to us at the first HOPE conference.
[13:06.760 --> 13:12.560]  And it's a great film about 10 minutes long just about phone freaks back in the early 70s.
[13:12.840 --> 13:16.340]  You know, rotary phones and blue boxes and that kind of thing.
[13:16.780 --> 13:19.540]  And it's amazing how much hasn't changed.
[13:19.640 --> 13:21.920]  It's also amazing, of course, how much has changed over the years.
[13:22.100 --> 13:25.340]  But that's a real study of the past.
[13:25.440 --> 13:31.980]  And I think it's also why it shows it's so important to document things and to record this unique culture that we're a part of.
[13:32.460 --> 13:36.160]  And I'm just glad we're all here to share that experience.
[13:36.520 --> 13:38.100]  Let's move over to the other side of the panel here.
[13:38.340 --> 13:41.880]  And, well, Laszlo, it's been a while since we've seen you on the radio.
[13:42.260 --> 13:42.700]  Correct.
[13:43.320 --> 13:47.040]  What's new in the world of corporate radio, which is what you're generally a part of?
[13:48.060 --> 13:53.580]  Well, some of the scary things that are happening, sometimes I'm interviewed on morning radio shows.
[13:55.120 --> 14:15.940]  And some of the morning shows are just kind of disappearing because the radio stations are suspending people for improper speech, afraid that if an FCC ruling does go through, that, you know, people will think that they're not actually trying to crack down on this.
[14:16.240 --> 14:19.160]  And so these people, these DJs, just disappear.
[14:20.060 --> 14:24.380]  And then they suddenly come back and they're not allowed to talk about why they were gone.
[14:24.600 --> 14:27.260]  Like, maybe they just joke that they were in rehab or something.
[14:27.700 --> 14:32.040]  So what, they take them to room 101 and then they come back and they're all cured.
[14:32.240 --> 14:32.820]  Is that what works?
[14:33.140 --> 14:45.460]  So Disney's been doing this and talking to radio DJs, the ones that are left, that, you know, because Clear Channel has these radio farms where it's moo, you know, and you just introduce songs and all the sound files go out to, like, Idaho and Kentucky.
[14:47.660 --> 15:10.660]  But a lot of people in radio are really nervous about the new proposed fines for indecency because it's changing to fining broadcast companies to fining individual broadcasters which means if Emanuel Goldstein says something that offends somebody out there this evening and they send in a complaint to the FCC...
[15:10.660 --> 15:12.180]  I already have when I said my name.
[15:12.360 --> 15:21.340]  Emanuel Goldstein, it won't be the radio station that gets served, it'll be Emanuel to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[15:21.340 --> 15:22.780]  So there's...
[15:22.780 --> 15:24.180]  a lot of people in...
[15:24.180 --> 15:32.980]  some of the cool people that are left in commercial radio right now are extremely concerned about this and both Democrats and Republicans are on board with it.
[15:33.260 --> 15:40.140]  So I think that's going to cause some serious shake-ups and more censorship in the media.
[15:41.940 --> 15:44.040]  Jim, you were here at the very first...
[15:44.040 --> 15:46.080]  Tell us something about your talk back in 1994.
[15:47.460 --> 15:49.340]  Oh, boy, I was so young.
[15:49.340 --> 15:51.500]  How many of you remember Jim at the first Hope?
[15:51.800 --> 15:56.600]  Or under my previous alias, Red Balaclava, about the Metro Cards?
[15:56.720 --> 15:58.360]  He tried to hide, we all knew who he was.
[15:58.880 --> 16:01.640]  Even in the New York Times with a bag over your head we knew who you were.
[16:01.780 --> 16:04.260]  It wasn't a bag, it was a balaclava, a ski mask.
[16:05.400 --> 16:09.860]  I mean, we've all seen you after a late night with a bag over your head, so naturally you assume.
[16:09.940 --> 16:10.400]  But anyway...
[16:10.400 --> 16:10.780]  With your wife.
[16:11.260 --> 16:12.400]  Yeah, I...
[16:13.740 --> 16:14.140]  Joke.
[16:14.240 --> 16:15.760]  Enough of our dirty laundry.
[16:16.080 --> 16:19.180]  Yeah, it's great being here for the fifth time around.
[16:20.820 --> 16:21.700]  And, uh...
[16:21.700 --> 16:22.280]  I don't know.
[16:22.680 --> 16:25.540]  Well, back then you were talking about the new Metro Card.
[16:25.680 --> 16:26.500]  The new Metro Card.
[16:26.760 --> 16:28.260]  Yeah, the subway system here in New York City.
[16:28.900 --> 16:31.060]  And how insecure it was?
[16:31.260 --> 16:32.360]  How it would never work, maybe?
[16:32.520 --> 16:32.860]  Or...
[16:32.860 --> 16:39.400]  We had our beliefs about its security, some of which were accurate, some of which were inaccurate.
[16:39.880 --> 16:42.400]  Essentially, it boils down to what I said way back then.
[16:42.400 --> 16:47.280]  If you want to get one ride out of a Metro Card, you pretty much can with almost no trouble.
[16:47.660 --> 16:48.140]  Uh...
[16:48.140 --> 16:49.500]  Every so often, you, uh...
[16:49.500 --> 16:53.360]  You hear about people getting busted for bending a Metro Card and using it for one ride.
[16:53.780 --> 16:54.640]  Or, uh...
[16:54.640 --> 17:09.120]  As recently happened at a station near Central Park, somebody who is bending discarded Metro Cards and selling the rides to tourists at half price got into a little altercation with his competition and ended up in a box-cutter fight.
[17:11.660 --> 17:13.020]  Well, so, uh...
[17:13.020 --> 17:13.900]  Yeah, it sounds interesting.
[17:14.220 --> 17:20.800]  And the other side of Metro Cards is also something that I spoke about at the first hope, which is that if you decide to, uh...
[17:20.800 --> 17:23.120]  go on a crime spree, uh...
[17:23.120 --> 17:24.180]  don't take, uh...
[17:24.180 --> 17:29.500]  don't take the subway or at least don't use a Metro Card, although now you can't do otherwise because they can be tracked.
[17:29.760 --> 17:30.960]  And there's, uh...
[17:30.960 --> 17:38.720]  at least two cases of murders that were cracked by the fact fell apart when they checked the guy's Metro Card.
[17:39.180 --> 17:41.660]  So if you kill somebody you should jump the turnstile.
[17:41.740 --> 17:43.420]  Jump the turnstile if you kill somebody, right.
[17:43.620 --> 17:44.300]  Don't, uh...
[17:44.300 --> 17:47.760]  don't have your card say, oh, yes, ten minutes after the killing he, uh...
[17:47.760 --> 17:50.400]  he was on the lam at the station where the murder occurred.
[17:50.700 --> 17:55.240]  Well, of course, all you have to do is get a Metro Card that went through a turnstile at a certain time.
[17:55.340 --> 18:02.620]  You could probably make quite a lot of money in the criminal underground by selling Metro Cards that were used at certain times that are convenient to the criminal.
[18:02.840 --> 18:03.760]  And, uh, you know...
[18:04.400 --> 18:06.380]  Like, you know, did you kill somebody at this time?
[18:06.600 --> 18:10.580]  Wouldn't it be nice if you had a Metro Card that showed that you were in Brooklyn at this time instead?
[18:10.820 --> 18:15.520]  We're planning at the 6th Hope to have a booth in which we will sell alibi, uh...
[18:15.520 --> 18:16.200]  what Metro Cards?
[18:16.440 --> 18:19.020]  I'm just saying it's an idea, you know, we should explore it.
[18:19.200 --> 18:19.940]  Alibi Cards.
[18:20.480 --> 18:21.140]  Jeff, welcome.
[18:21.560 --> 18:21.940]  Thank you.
[18:22.180 --> 18:22.540]  Thank you.
[18:23.300 --> 18:26.120]  Tell us, uh, tell us your recollections of hope and other things.
[18:26.160 --> 18:27.540]  This is actually my third.
[18:28.200 --> 18:31.100]  The first time I, uh, I came, it was very interesting.
[18:31.380 --> 18:39.400]  I, uh, helped to set up the whole first day and, uh, uh, at the end of the day, they said, somebody's just, just got here now and he needs some help.
[18:39.520 --> 18:40.140]  Who wants to go?
[18:40.300 --> 18:41.460]  So I, I, I'll go.
[18:41.640 --> 18:44.940]  I went downstairs and that was the first time I met Bernie S.
[18:45.100 --> 18:49.520]  And he had the, uh, the little machine that we were going to print all of the badges that year.
[18:49.980 --> 18:54.580]  And we were literally, I was up all night just printing badges.
[18:54.820 --> 18:56.520]  It took 90 seconds per badge.
[18:56.840 --> 19:02.640]  And Bernie had the room so I insisted at 4.30 go to bed, you know, I can, I can sit up with this.
[19:02.800 --> 19:04.060]  I already missed my buses.
[19:04.620 --> 19:08.180]  But, uh, we, we spent a lot of time and, uh, we had some fun.
[19:08.720 --> 19:08.940]  Yeah.
[19:09.140 --> 19:10.500]  I think I've got one in my wallet too.
[19:10.780 --> 19:11.460]  Well, now you have two.
[19:11.600 --> 19:12.200]  This is, yeah.
[19:12.440 --> 19:17.800]  The, how many of you have the, uh, the collection, all the different badges and things?
[19:18.100 --> 19:19.360]  Yeah, we try to make it different every year.
[19:19.440 --> 19:20.320]  This year we have armbands.
[19:20.460 --> 19:21.780]  So, who expected that?
[19:23.280 --> 19:25.580]  Everyone's asking, what's the card going to be like this year?
[19:25.720 --> 19:27.060]  How, how high tech are you going to go?
[19:27.160 --> 19:32.260]  Well, we went the other direction and, uh, we, uh, we have Velcro, uh, arm bands.
[19:32.400 --> 19:33.540]  Mike, maybe you can say something.
[19:33.720 --> 19:36.160]  No, no less difficult to procure than some high tech solution.
[19:36.260 --> 19:40.460]  Yeah, I mean, basically we were told at certain points that this is impossible to make.
[19:40.720 --> 19:42.820]  You want to tell us something about the saga that you went through?
[19:43.280 --> 19:50.180]  First of all, there are no companies apparently in the United States or anywhere that manufacture armbands just as, as a stock line item.
[19:50.180 --> 19:59.600]  Um, so, you know, finding a factory that would do this, there's a, there's a, a type, a segment of the garment industry called a cutting room.
[19:59.980 --> 20:11.520]  Uh, I obtained the phone number of a cutting room and called them up and said, uh, I would like to buy you some fabric and have you cut it for me into armband sized pieces and was told, no, we don't do that.
[20:11.720 --> 20:18.160]  So if anyone can explain to me what a cutting room does, if not cut fabric, I would really like to know.
[20:18.900 --> 20:24.880]  And, and, and so this whole thing, uh, until we finally found a small factory that was willing to manufacture them for us.
[20:25.080 --> 20:28.900]  And, uh, then we had them printed and they're on your arms today if you're here.
[20:29.740 --> 20:32.500]  It's actually, uh, Mike did a whole lot more than that.
[20:32.680 --> 20:43.220]  Uh, spending weeks and weeks, uh, tracking down various vendors, trying, finding lost packages at one point and, uh, just getting people to do things that they're supposed to do in the first place and getting them to do them right.
[20:43.440 --> 20:48.940]  So, um, UPS still thinks that, uh, parks, uh, one of the six boxes of armbands is lost.
[20:49.240 --> 20:53.840]  So, uh, yeah, if you're wearing an armband from that lost box, you know, UPS owes you money for it.
[20:54.520 --> 20:54.740]  Yeah.
[20:56.160 --> 20:57.380]  Um, what else?
[20:57.720 --> 20:59.660]  Well, I guess, um, maybe, go ahead, Jim.
[20:59.940 --> 21:06.400]  I, I have something that sort of relates to, to our, our previous hope conferences and, and is current as well.
[21:06.780 --> 21:17.360]  Do you remember the good old days where the phone company and the defense department would send out notices saying the hackers are having a convention batting down the hatches?
[21:17.780 --> 21:19.460]  You remember those, don't you, Emmanuel?
[21:19.460 --> 21:20.820]  Well, it happened last time, too.
[21:21.140 --> 21:21.340]  Right.
[21:21.340 --> 21:22.660]  I expect it to happen again this time.
[21:22.800 --> 21:32.080]  Well, well, I did, I did some looking on the net earlier today and yesterday, hoping to find what the latest, uh, alert was about.
[21:32.080 --> 21:36.060]  And it turns out, I can't find any alert about us.
[21:36.340 --> 21:40.900]  However, I do know what the defense department is afraid of now.
[21:41.360 --> 21:42.740]  Would you like to see it?
[21:43.380 --> 21:43.720]  Yes.
[21:45.060 --> 21:46.160]  I think so.
[21:47.220 --> 21:47.840]  Coke cans.
[21:48.540 --> 21:49.400]  Oh, yes.
[21:53.180 --> 21:56.080]  You're, you're referring, of course, to the, uh, whole GPS thing.
[21:56.120 --> 21:57.240]  Ah, yes.
[21:57.380 --> 21:57.920]  Yes, indeed.
[21:57.920 --> 22:00.140]  I mean, we spoke about this a few months ago.
[22:00.500 --> 22:01.960]  Coca-Cola has a contest.
[22:02.860 --> 22:05.020]  Well, that's, that's not one of them.
[22:05.200 --> 22:05.800]  Or not a winner.
[22:07.800 --> 22:09.860]  Everybody who drinks Coca-Cola is a winner.
[22:11.080 --> 22:12.140]  That's my Coke.
[22:12.280 --> 22:12.760]  Don't drink it.
[22:13.100 --> 22:13.220]  Oh.
[22:14.240 --> 22:19.060]  Coca-Cola has a contest where they have 120 cans, uh, nationwide.
[22:20.320 --> 22:22.940]  We, we were speculating on what this was.
[22:23.120 --> 22:26.200]  Bernie and I were sure it was some sort of RFID with a GPS.
[22:26.540 --> 22:27.660]  It's a cell phone.
[22:28.060 --> 22:31.940]  They've put a cell phone with an auto dialer in 120 Coke cans.
[22:32.140 --> 22:34.980]  And what happens is you can only talk to Coca-Cola.
[22:35.240 --> 22:46.540]  And at that point, they say, okay, sometime in the next three weeks, at any time, at any place, we will swoop in, perhaps with a helicopter, because it's more impressive when we film it.
[22:48.080 --> 22:50.340]  And, and give you some incredible gift.
[22:50.640 --> 22:52.960]  Maybe an SUV, maybe, I don't know what.
[22:53.420 --> 23:01.400]  Well, it turns out that the Defense Information Systems agency's, uh, agency thinks that this is a high security risk.
[23:02.840 --> 23:10.360]  Because, heaven knows, they could swoop in on a member of, uh, DISA, or whatever the acronym is pronounced, in a secure area.
[23:10.360 --> 23:15.520]  And you can't have Coca-Cola and its helicopters over Area 51, for sure.
[23:17.700 --> 23:26.880]  So now, they've sent out a memo telling everyone to treat cans of Coke as if they were any sort of two-way radio.
[23:27.140 --> 23:29.000]  The same security measures.
[23:30.120 --> 23:32.480]  So, this is what they spend their time worrying about, huh?
[23:32.620 --> 23:35.420]  They don't have to worry about us bringing them down.
[23:35.620 --> 23:37.000]  They could do it themselves.
[23:37.460 --> 23:39.800]  But it, it would be fun to see the U.S.
[23:39.900 --> 23:42.440]  military and Coca-Cola like in a big firefight, though.
[23:42.560 --> 23:43.400]  That, that...
[23:49.120 --> 23:50.860]  I think, I think Coke might win.
[23:51.320 --> 23:51.340]  Right?
[23:52.560 --> 23:53.380]  Um, there was a, uh...
[23:53.380 --> 23:55.620]  There was a story about Wi-Fi in the Defense Department.
[23:55.720 --> 23:56.420]  Is that what you're going to talk about?
[23:56.460 --> 24:00.260]  No, there was a similar story a few years ago during the big Furby craze.
[24:00.340 --> 24:06.340]  Remember those little, horrible little dolls that could, like, record what you were saying and play them back in weird intonations?
[24:06.340 --> 24:12.920]  Uh, the National Security Agency and the CIA were very upset that, uh, their employees were bringing Furbies into their office.
[24:13.160 --> 24:18.320]  And the Furbies are recording classified information and blurting it out in weird intonations.
[24:18.900 --> 24:23.980]  So, uh, that's another case where the, uh, our government is very afraid of these common items.
[24:24.180 --> 24:26.200]  But what happened in the last week or so?
[24:26.320 --> 24:35.000]  There was something involving wireless, uh, communication and the Defense Department realizing that, hey, they can, they can get this outside the building in the parking lot.
[24:35.060 --> 24:36.000]  How do we turn this off?
[24:36.740 --> 24:42.020]  Uh, you're referring to the Department of Homeland Security and set up a Wi-Fi network to connect from one building to another.
[24:42.300 --> 24:50.620]  One engineer or employee decided to access his, uh, network in a new building that he couldn't access after he moved.
[24:50.660 --> 24:57.760]  So he set up a Wi-Fi link and, uh, it was open and unencrypted and Department of Homeland Security is insecure as all get out.
[24:59.360 --> 25:02.200]  So what, did they shut it down or are they just passing memos around?
[25:02.520 --> 25:04.680]  Well, I imagine after it was on CNN they shut it down.
[25:04.840 --> 25:05.200]  But...
[25:06.520 --> 25:07.460]  You never know.
[25:07.740 --> 25:10.000]  You don't have so much confidence in their abilities.
[25:11.220 --> 25:14.660]  Um, so, uh, does anybody else have a story they'd like to, uh, make reference to?
[25:14.780 --> 25:21.860]  Or something perhaps that, uh, is a memorable story of the past, say, year or two years since we were, uh, here at the last conference.
[25:22.840 --> 25:23.120]  Nobody?
[25:23.620 --> 25:24.700]  Boy, it's just like being on the air.
[25:26.420 --> 25:29.020]  Okay, well, I have some letters that I can read from people who have written in.
[25:29.460 --> 25:32.380]  Um, how many of you have written in to Off the Hook ever in your lives?
[25:32.640 --> 25:33.220]  Oh, look at that.
[25:33.320 --> 25:34.260]  That's our audience right there.
[25:36.380 --> 25:37.880]  Okay, you're a little more enthusiastic there.
[25:37.880 --> 25:42.000]  Uh, OTH at 2600.com is, uh, our address.
[25:42.740 --> 25:45.780]  And our show is usually heard Wednesday nights from 7 to 8 p.m.
[25:46.100 --> 25:47.320]  on WBAI New York.
[25:47.760 --> 25:51.220]  Uh, and we're on now until 10 o'clock also on WBAI New York.
[25:51.320 --> 25:52.920]  And let's hear it for WBAI, you know?
[26:00.920 --> 26:01.320]  Amazing.
[26:02.540 --> 26:09.240]  Where else could you possibly do a show like Off the Hook and so many of the other programs that they have on a weekly basis?
[26:09.740 --> 26:11.600]  Uh, we're very lucky here in New York.
[26:11.700 --> 26:21.600]  I know a lot of you are from different parts of the world, different parts of the country where stations like BAI do not exist and where you just treat it to the same clear channel crap coming from all different angles, right, Les?
[26:21.640 --> 26:24.860]  Look, some cities have, like, every single station owned by the same people.
[26:25.020 --> 26:25.920]  It's horrendous.
[26:26.040 --> 26:26.500]  It's unbelievable.
[26:26.520 --> 26:28.600]  And then you get satellite radio and they own part of that, too.
[26:29.220 --> 26:29.660]  Emmanuel?
[26:29.940 --> 26:30.580]  They own everything.
[26:30.620 --> 26:42.660]  There was actually a town out in the Midwest where there was an emergency situation and the police couldn't get in contact with anyone in any of the six radio stations because they were operated by one person who was out to lunch or something.
[26:42.880 --> 26:43.280]  Unbelievable.
[26:43.280 --> 26:49.820]  But here we have in New York, we have a station that has all kinds of interesting things, always live people there.
[26:49.940 --> 26:53.980]  There are definitely live people right now at the radio station manning this broadcast, thank you, by the way.
[26:55.100 --> 26:58.100]  So, as long as there's a station like WBAI in New York, there is hope.
[26:58.140 --> 27:01.740]  And I urge everybody here to join the station one way or another.
[27:02.780 --> 27:13.320]  For 25 bucks, you can be a member of the station and not only that, you can vote and move ahead in a particular direction so that the station doesn't fall off track like it did a couple of years ago because that's always a threat.
[27:14.080 --> 27:20.080]  And believe me, when you have a 50,000 watt station in the middle of the FM dial in New York City, a lot of people want that kind of control.
[27:20.540 --> 27:21.360]  A lot of people.
[27:21.520 --> 27:22.740]  So, we're lucky.
[27:22.820 --> 27:25.700]  We're lucky we have this resource and I hope we fight hard to protect it.
[27:26.680 --> 27:29.160]  So, yeah, we're being broadcast live over the radio station.
[27:29.320 --> 27:30.200]  I sure hope we are.
[27:30.400 --> 27:31.540]  Have we verified that?
[27:32.080 --> 27:32.980]  We are being...
[27:32.980 --> 27:33.760]  Okay, good, good.
[27:33.920 --> 27:36.460]  You should mention to Emmanuel that this is also...
[27:36.460 --> 27:38.780]  The call letters are 99.5...
[27:38.780 --> 27:40.100]  Not the call letters, the frequency.
[27:40.880 --> 27:43.520]  It's simulcast on shortwave, 7415.
[27:44.060 --> 27:45.040]  Not right now, though, is it?
[27:45.180 --> 27:45.840]  Is it on right now?
[27:45.960 --> 27:46.160]  No.
[27:46.460 --> 27:46.980]  It's not on tonight.
[27:46.980 --> 27:47.540]  No, it's not.
[27:47.760 --> 27:49.880]  No, but there is a shortwave station that simulcast our signal.
[27:49.880 --> 27:50.520]  On Wednesdays.
[27:50.620 --> 27:55.600]  And we always get letters from people, maybe some of you are here that want to simulcast the radio station as well.
[27:55.760 --> 27:57.340]  They're off the hook on Wednesday nights.
[27:57.500 --> 27:59.620]  And, of course, there's no problem doing that at all.
[27:59.680 --> 28:04.120]  You don't have to get certified letters from us or lawyers giving permission or anything like that.
[28:04.240 --> 28:06.180]  If you want to simulcast, go right ahead.
[28:06.180 --> 28:10.340]  As long as, you know, you give credit to the show and to the station, that's not a problem at all.
[28:10.500 --> 28:11.840]  And you don't play commercials in between.
[28:12.120 --> 28:12.880]  Don't play commercials.
[28:13.180 --> 28:15.560]  The audio streaming is taking care of.
[28:15.760 --> 28:17.460]  Junes is sitting right there, but it won't come out.
[28:17.460 --> 28:19.320]  Junes, you're going to be our first celebrity guest.
[28:19.420 --> 28:19.740]  Come on up.
[28:23.450 --> 28:27.850]  The great thing about what Junes does is that we get to have callers.
[28:27.910 --> 28:30.290]  I mean, we have callers from all around the world and it's just kind of...
[28:30.290 --> 28:35.150]  It's great to get an outside perspective when we're talking about, you know, local topics.
[28:35.970 --> 28:44.270]  If you ever listen to the station over the internet, it's most likely because of Junes' efforts that you're able to do that week after week.
[28:44.310 --> 28:46.790]  He just makes sure that we stay on.
[28:48.250 --> 28:48.870]  You're welcome.
[28:53.360 --> 28:55.000]  Doesn't he do the archiving as well?
[28:55.320 --> 28:55.700]  Yes.
[28:55.700 --> 28:56.420]  Yes, actually.
[28:56.600 --> 28:57.280]  Every week.
[28:57.920 --> 28:59.360]  How does it all work?
[29:00.240 --> 29:01.360]  How does it all work?
[29:01.640 --> 29:04.120]  Oh, it's very magical and hard to understand.
[29:05.280 --> 29:06.620]  No, it's really simple, actually.
[29:06.900 --> 29:15.200]  I have a radio at home that feeds into a computer and that computer turns it into an MP3 file and sends it off to a server in Colorado somewhere.
[29:15.820 --> 29:20.040]  And we have a bunch of other servers that grab that signal and spread it out all over the world.
[29:20.160 --> 29:25.540]  And when you connect to one of those servers, you're listening to the stream and it's originating from my home.
[29:26.200 --> 29:27.040]  It's that simple.
[29:30.900 --> 29:37.900]  Now, a commercial radio station, that kind of thing would cost huge amounts of money and probably wouldn't work as well.
[29:38.640 --> 29:39.100]  Probably.
[29:39.420 --> 29:42.680]  And, you know, in the hacker spirit, we just make it work somehow.
[29:42.760 --> 29:43.560]  And there was a while...
[29:43.560 --> 29:50.120]  There was quite a period of time where Junst was responsible for the 24-7 simulcasting of BAI over the internet.
[29:50.420 --> 29:56.440]  And that was during a very critical period in our history where we had to get the word out to people all throughout the world as to what was happening at the station.
[29:57.140 --> 29:58.000]  So, um...
[29:58.000 --> 29:58.240]  Yeah.
[29:58.680 --> 30:02.660]  That was a dark period where people needed to know what was going on.
[30:02.860 --> 30:06.220]  And so we put up the stream 24-7 and that really helped out.
[30:06.520 --> 30:13.980]  And I should probably mention that we do all this with donated bandwidth, donated servers, and we're always looking for more.
[30:13.980 --> 30:19.820]  So, if you've got a big pipe out there you're willing to let us use, let me know.
[30:20.600 --> 30:22.580]  Email OTH at 2600.com.
[30:23.500 --> 30:24.700]  We're just fine Junst.
[30:24.700 --> 30:25.220]  He's right there.
[30:25.300 --> 30:25.580]  Yes.
[30:25.680 --> 30:34.280]  And on top of all of that, there's every show that we've ever done, I think, online at 2600.com slash off the hook.
[30:34.320 --> 30:37.060]  And you can go and listen to the whole history of this show.
[30:38.340 --> 30:41.640]  What's the current capacity of all this magic that you do?
[30:42.580 --> 30:52.060]  At the current rates that we're streaming, we can, well, we have probably enough to handle anywhere between 600 to 1,000 listeners at once.
[30:52.360 --> 30:55.900]  And we get a pretty good percentage of that on a daily basis anyway.
[30:56.720 --> 31:04.020]  Anytime there's an emergency or any, you know, war coverage from Iraq or whatever, that jumps up to almost beyond what we can handle.
[31:04.220 --> 31:07.060]  So, again, if you can help us out, we really appreciate it.
[31:08.400 --> 31:12.160]  We have Shapeshifter here who does the layout of the 2600 magazine.
[31:16.140 --> 31:16.940]  How's it going?
[31:18.520 --> 31:24.360]  And I learned four years ago just how much he's actually worth when the U.S.
[31:24.460 --> 31:30.220]  government held him for half a million dollars bail at the Republican convention in Philadelphia.
[31:30.620 --> 31:34.600]  How many of you saw his talk in 2000 at H2K about the RNC?
[31:35.340 --> 31:37.720]  It was a very small room so it couldn't have been too many of you.
[31:38.560 --> 31:45.840]  Yeah, and down there, Shapeshifter, maybe you can tell the very quick story as to what happened to you when you went down there.
[31:46.020 --> 31:47.240]  Or you lived down in Philadelphia.
[31:47.400 --> 31:47.940]  What happened to you?
[31:47.980 --> 31:48.820]  In Philadelphia, you mean?
[31:48.820 --> 31:50.020]  Yeah, in Philadelphia at the convention.
[31:50.680 --> 31:54.580]  What did you do that made it worthwhile to lock you up for half a million dollars bail?
[31:54.780 --> 32:02.040]  Well, I helped organize some of the protests beforehand and during the actual convention, I couldn't get near any of the protests.
[32:02.480 --> 32:06.180]  Nowhere close because the Philadelphia police did such a good job of shutting down the city.
[32:08.360 --> 32:09.320]  So, uh...
[32:10.360 --> 32:22.420]  Anyway, I couldn't get anywhere near the protest and I was charged with organizing and leading protests and they said that I had this amazing superhuman ability of where I pointed people would follow.
[32:23.940 --> 32:28.260]  I also had this other amazing ability of not being able to be caught in videotape.
[32:29.580 --> 32:30.960]  We saw the evidence though.
[32:31.040 --> 32:39.700]  We saw the evidence of you walking walking down the street with a cell phone talking to somebody and I think it was me you were talking to because I was in Philadelphia that day telling you what was going on.
[32:40.100 --> 32:41.020]  Does Zoe want to say something?
[32:41.280 --> 32:41.800]  Want to say hello?
[32:41.920 --> 32:42.060]  No?
[32:43.020 --> 32:44.960]  No, she wants to eat the microphone.
[32:45.140 --> 32:45.520]  Oh, okay.
[32:48.320 --> 32:49.040]  So, uh...
[32:49.040 --> 32:53.900]  they used that as evidence that you were a threat and had you locked away for about a week, right?
[32:54.920 --> 32:59.860]  My first major charge was possession of an instrument of crime which was the cell phone, in fact.
[33:00.080 --> 33:03.960]  How many of you remember the cover of 2600 with the cell phone and the handcuffs?
[33:06.220 --> 33:07.760]  His hands, his, uh...
[33:08.340 --> 33:10.280]  I think we bought the handcuffs, right?
[33:10.940 --> 33:12.140]  And was it your cell phone?
[33:12.300 --> 33:15.440]  Uh, it was one of the cell phones that we were using for communications...
[33:15.440 --> 33:16.200]  Nextel phones.
[33:16.380 --> 33:17.100]  Yes, Nextel.
[33:17.200 --> 33:17.780]  It's very dangerous.
[33:18.120 --> 33:20.640]  Yeah, well, they were listening in on the Nextel phones I believe.
[33:21.100 --> 33:22.340]  Uh, I think somewhat, yeah.
[33:22.340 --> 33:26.800]  Yeah, so if you plan on communicating surreptitiously, perhaps that's not the best option.
[33:26.900 --> 33:27.080]  Yes.
[33:27.460 --> 33:32.660]  Uh, one of their favorite ways of listening in is tackling one of the people holding it and then they're on your network group.
[33:35.160 --> 33:36.340]  Low tech, but it works.
[33:36.460 --> 33:40.080]  I think maybe what you need is a crypto phone to, uh, communicate with everyone else.
[33:40.300 --> 33:41.240]  Yeah, crypto phones.
[33:41.460 --> 33:43.080]  They can talk to you then, too.
[33:43.540 --> 33:43.760]  Yeah.
[33:44.400 --> 33:46.220]  Uh, so tell us about the talk you're giving this year.
[33:46.520 --> 33:54.420]  Uh, this talk I gave this year is about mayhem and mischief, how I can join the fun and adding to the chaos at the, uh, RNC, um...
[33:54.420 --> 33:55.380]  Wait, you just gave the talk?
[33:55.560 --> 33:56.420]  Uh, yes.
[33:56.680 --> 33:57.220]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[33:57.340 --> 33:59.060]  You just gave the talk in the other room, so it's over now.
[33:59.160 --> 33:59.600]  Sorry, folks.
[34:00.820 --> 34:02.080]  But it'll be available on video.
[34:03.660 --> 34:04.640]  Tell us how it went.
[34:05.300 --> 34:05.700]  What's it?
[34:05.780 --> 34:08.080]  Tell us how it went since nobody here saw it, since we were all in here.
[34:08.560 --> 34:09.440]  Uh, I think it went okay.
[34:09.760 --> 34:10.220]  Uh, I don't know.
[34:10.240 --> 34:11.020]  Was anybody in there?
[34:11.220 --> 34:11.560]  I was there.
[34:12.180 --> 34:12.620]  All right.
[34:14.820 --> 34:17.020]  You know, it was during the preparation for this show.
[34:17.140 --> 34:17.540]  It was before.
[34:17.720 --> 34:20.420]  The room was packed, so you had plenty of people.
[34:21.120 --> 34:21.440]  Okay.
[34:21.960 --> 34:26.540]  And it was, uh, basically we're talking about the Republican Convention coming here in another month or so.
[34:27.220 --> 34:29.920]  And, uh, what kinds of things that they're planning.
[34:30.380 --> 34:33.280]  What kinds of things are people planning to, uh, to counter that?
[34:33.840 --> 34:34.960]  What kinds of demonstrations?
[34:35.460 --> 34:37.980]  Uh, I mean, they're sealing off the whole, this whole area.
[34:38.120 --> 34:39.860]  We're in the frozen zone right now, aren't we?
[34:40.020 --> 34:40.220]  Yep.
[34:40.360 --> 34:42.920]  I heard estimates of around, like, 500,000 people.
[34:43.200 --> 34:50.820]  And, uh, there's going to be marches, you know, uh, you know, big rah-rah marches where, you know, thousands, hundreds of thousands of people march.
[34:51.460 --> 34:52.180]  Nineteen blocks.
[34:52.520 --> 34:55.000]  Nineteen blocks will be cordoned off, I heard on the radio yesterday.
[34:55.260 --> 34:55.760]  Nineteen blocks?
[34:55.900 --> 34:56.340]  That's a lot.
[34:56.560 --> 34:57.220]  Nineteen blocks.
[34:57.400 --> 34:58.220]  That is a lot.
[34:58.320 --> 34:59.220]  I don't know how they're going to do that.
[34:59.300 --> 35:02.740]  Is there a free speech zone where we are permitted to express our opinions?
[35:03.580 --> 35:06.600]  I heard that too, but stay away from the post-protest pens.
[35:06.880 --> 35:08.820]  It sucks to be trapped inside one of them.
[35:08.880 --> 35:12.040]  Tell us about what a protest pen is for those of us who have never protested before.
[35:12.240 --> 35:13.740]  Uh, we might be doing that this summer.
[35:13.980 --> 35:18.580]  That's where they funnel you in, they cordon you off, and, uh, nobody pays attention to you.
[35:21.200 --> 35:23.960]  Well, Shapeshifter, thank you so much for your efforts and for everything you've done.
[35:24.760 --> 35:25.280]  Thank you.
[35:30.560 --> 35:31.720]  And, uh, Greg Newby is here.
[35:31.840 --> 35:32.320]  Greg, say hi.
[35:32.660 --> 35:32.840]  Hey.
[35:33.240 --> 35:40.480]  Greg is a person, uh, walking around, uh, organizing speakers, getting them to the right places on time, so if you're a speaker, this is one of the guys you have to talk to.
[35:40.980 --> 35:43.720]  Um, and Greg, you've been helping organize the conference too.
[35:43.820 --> 35:44.920]  How do you think it's going so far?
[35:45.380 --> 35:45.760]  I have.
[35:45.840 --> 35:49.720]  It's been, uh, uh, a long, uh, trip, right?
[35:49.900 --> 35:51.920]  A lot of, uh, a lot of emails, a lot of effort.
[35:52.360 --> 35:59.140]  Uh, like, uh, the previous ones, uh, the Hope Conference is a virtual, essentially a virtually, uh, we're put on by a virtual organization.
[35:59.380 --> 36:12.800]  You know, we're, we're a lot of people doing day jobs and spending a lot of time with email and, uh, making all kinds of plans and then it comes together and what we discover is that all of our incredible efforts, you know, a lot of hours, a lot of messages,
[36:13.040 --> 36:22.280]  some phone calls, stuff like that, are really a fraction of the effort that goes in by the speakers and then by the, um, volunteers that help out during the show.
[36:22.360 --> 36:25.880]  So it's just a, uh, you know, you put in a lot and you get out a whole lot more.
[36:26.300 --> 36:28.640]  And Greg came all the way from Alaska to be here.
[36:28.840 --> 36:29.340]  Isn't that something?
[36:29.900 --> 36:30.120]  Whoa.
[36:31.400 --> 36:31.760]  And...
[36:35.340 --> 36:38.660]  His house is like burning down as we speak, but he's here anyway.
[36:39.040 --> 36:39.140]  Fire and...
[36:39.140 --> 36:42.940]  I said there's these wildfires going on in Alaska a few miles from his house, but, uh, it's okay.
[36:42.940 --> 36:53.940]  We should point out to the radio listeners that this is such a high-class conference that Greg is wearing an electric blue zoot suit with a blue hat.
[36:54.160 --> 36:55.880]  This man is dressed to the nines.
[36:56.120 --> 37:00.400]  If this was 1944 Los Angeles, he could have Lana Turner tonight.
[37:01.960 --> 37:03.760]  Yeah, but did you see the wingtips?
[37:06.800 --> 37:07.520]  All right.
[37:07.700 --> 37:08.760]  This is radio after all.
[37:08.980 --> 37:11.480]  During the blackout, he could have Lana Turner tonight.
[37:13.580 --> 37:17.920]  Okay, well, uh, so, Greg, um, uh, who else is back here?
[37:18.020 --> 37:18.340]  We have Kevin.
[37:18.500 --> 37:18.680]  Kevin.
[37:19.140 --> 37:19.760]  Step up, Kevin.
[37:20.780 --> 37:21.620]  Kevin Mitnick.
[37:23.900 --> 37:24.660]  Hi, everybody.
[37:27.360 --> 37:30.260]  And you gave a terrific talk before.
[37:30.720 --> 37:31.340]  Thank you.
[37:31.420 --> 37:31.940]  Standing ovation.
[37:32.440 --> 37:32.680]  Amazing.
[37:32.960 --> 37:35.440]  You had the whole place packed all the way to the back, and, uh...
[37:35.440 --> 37:37.760]  That was great to do it in front of a great audience.
[37:38.040 --> 37:38.260]  Yeah.
[37:38.380 --> 37:38.580]  Yeah.
[37:38.980 --> 37:40.080]  Well, like I mentioned before...
[37:40.080 --> 37:42.460]  It was the first time actually doing that type of talk, too, so I actually had a...
[37:42.460 --> 37:46.140]  Well, usually, the talks you give usually to a corporate audience.
[37:46.320 --> 37:47.480]  Yeah, corporate-type stuff.
[37:47.700 --> 37:47.840]  Uh-huh.
[37:47.840 --> 37:48.020]  Yeah.
[37:48.260 --> 37:50.820]  Yeah, so, uh, not quite as enthusiastic a crowd.
[37:51.180 --> 37:51.540]  No.
[37:51.860 --> 37:56.040]  And certainly not the kind of people who were demonstrating against having you locked up for all those years.
[37:56.340 --> 38:01.040]  Well, I mean, the last one I did was, like, in front of the RCMP in Canada, so it was kind of awkward, right?
[38:02.680 --> 38:03.600]  They bring their horses?
[38:04.440 --> 38:04.880]  No.
[38:06.320 --> 38:08.920]  So, uh, what else has been going on with you in the conference?
[38:09.180 --> 38:12.520]  Have you been going to other panels, uh, walking around the hotel?
[38:12.880 --> 38:13.280]  What's been going on?
[38:13.280 --> 38:19.040]  Just, uh, well, today I actually just slept in because I was kind of tired from being from the West Coast and...
[38:29.020 --> 38:50.540]  The telephone was ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would But they live on But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood But they live on
[40:19.210 --> 40:30.870]  From England to Poland Every step across the ocean The ruling class system is in a mess Oh yes What does Marx have to do with democracy and human liberation?
[40:31.150 --> 40:52.890]  It is becoming obvious to many people that capitalism is an obstacle to the kind of democracy we want And more and more social justice activists are turning again to Marxism From Thursday, July 8th through Sunday, July 11th 9.30 to 6.30 Brecht Forum will hold its 27th annual four-day Marxist intensive study Teachers include Sophia Quintero Stanley Aronowitz Horace Campbell Bill Fletcher Christian
[40:52.890 --> 41:17.750]  Parenti Annette Rubenstein and many others Through lectures, readings, and lively discussion in a non-sectarian and open-minded environment participants will further develop an analysis that can help them think more strategically and act more effectively Brecht Forum is located at 122 West 27th Street on the 10th floor in Manhattan For more information call 212-242-4201 That's 212-242-4201 The
[41:17.750 --> 41:35.810]  work has been demanded more pay And Robert Steele Robert Steele is here our first keynote Come on up, Robert Let's have a hug for the audience Yeah, well, you know John Kerry can do that shit Can I pat you on the ass?
[41:38.850 --> 42:00.290]  Sorry Go on the radio Don't forget I apologize Right Listen, Janet Jackson No, you don't want to go there It's really not worth doing So you were here for the first conference in 1994 Wearing sunglasses with strobe lights talking about the Reichstag coming in You were ahead of your time Well,
[42:00.350 --> 42:06.590]  it's funny because that first that first talk we were playing a jellobee off for a speech while you were He doesn't like me, does he?
[42:06.750 --> 42:30.110]  Well, you know different people have different ways of communicating We've never met We've never hugged You will He arrives tonight I'm leaving tomorrow It's planned out so well But 1994 you gave a talk I think it was in the room next door and that was the keynote And look how big it's gotten We've gotten We have three floors now You guys have become mainstream I mean,
[42:30.210 --> 42:39.050]  for people to show up at 10 in the morning I mean, you know something's going on here and to run on time So what have you been up to the last couple of years since we had you here last?
[42:39.470 --> 43:07.350]  I'm surviving And as I said this morning for those of you that slept in Collective intelligence Google on collective intelligence in quotes and you will discover the wisdom of the crowd The public is starting to come into its own The internet is in fact enabling people to come together at every level in every location and put together more information better information than the liars in the
[43:07.350 --> 43:23.290]  government and the liars in the corporation So you now have the power of information but only if you structure yourself Only if you self-organize I'm sorry if that sounds like a commercial but I'm not selling anything Get your act together And you're speaking for like four hours tomorrow,
[43:23.450 --> 43:23.690]  correct?
[43:23.970 --> 43:43.250]  No, I'm not speaking for four hours tomorrow I'm giving two 30-minute briefs on everything that's screwed up in intelligence Senator Roberts I just did a press release while I was in my room a few hours ago Senator Roberts got 10% of it right He missed the other 90% My press release covers that The thing is you're going to be taking questions and that's why it's going to go four hours That's
[43:43.250 --> 43:50.230]  exactly right It will go four hours and at midnight if any of you are interested we'll have a panel on crushing New York
[43:56.210 --> 43:58.250]  Now, exactly what do you mean by that?
[43:58.510 --> 44:04.110]  Well, let's start with the 1920s water system Oh, you know about that, huh?
[44:04.410 --> 44:11.910]  Yes If that is somehow incapacitated and a fire starts in one of these tenements Did you read that article in the New Yorker?
[44:11.930 --> 44:14.170]  This city burns down You read that article, didn't you?
[44:14.210 --> 44:18.330]  Yeah, and then let's go from there to the plague Did you say the plague?
[44:18.710 --> 44:21.890]  Yes Do you mean the plague?
[44:22.550 --> 44:51.410]  After the plague we can go to Giuliani's new girlfriend Well, tell us I'm sorry that was a cheap shot I don't think he'll be vice president Tell us about the water system and its inherent weakness At the risk of being serious There's a very very important book by a guy named Charles Perra I think it is called Normal Accidents Dealing with High-Risk Technologies And what he says this is a standard
[44:51.410 --> 45:00.510]  book in all masters of public administration courses Simple systems have single points of failure that are easy to diagnose and easy to fix.
[45:01.690 --> 45:07.930]  Complex systems have multiple points of failure that interact in strange and incomprehensible ways on the way down.
[45:08.090 --> 45:10.730]  And they're almost impossible to diagnose and fix.
[45:11.210 --> 45:20.290]  We have a constellation of complex systems, all of which were designed for acts of God, not acts of man.
[45:20.290 --> 45:28.950]  Again, the minute you introduce suicidal terrorism and billions of seriously pissed off Muslims, you are in deep...
[45:29.970 --> 45:30.770]  Thank you, Robert.
[45:31.050 --> 45:32.350]  Nice having you, as always.
[45:33.370 --> 45:34.490]  Yes, we caught it.
[45:34.890 --> 45:37.510]  And you're speaking tomorrow night, is that correct?
[45:37.750 --> 45:39.450]  At 10 o'clock in the evening.
[45:39.710 --> 45:40.090]  All right.
[45:40.470 --> 45:40.810]  All right.
[45:40.870 --> 45:41.130]  Great to have you back.
[45:41.130 --> 45:41.890]  I'm dismissed now.
[45:42.070 --> 45:42.470]  Thank you.
[45:42.550 --> 45:43.830]  Well, you know, we have to move on.
[45:44.010 --> 45:44.370]  All right.
[45:44.750 --> 45:45.510]  God bless you.
[45:45.650 --> 45:47.070]  What you're doing is really worthwhile.
[45:47.370 --> 45:47.670]  Thank you.
[45:47.750 --> 45:48.290]  Thank you for coming.
[45:48.650 --> 45:49.190]  Robert Steele.
[45:54.650 --> 45:58.210]  Is there anybody else on the guest list that we... I can't see.
[45:58.330 --> 45:59.270]  I have this brilliant light.
[45:59.670 --> 46:00.510]  Rob is coming up?
[46:00.690 --> 46:01.270]  In a minute.
[46:01.350 --> 46:02.030]  Okay, in a minute.
[46:02.150 --> 46:04.990]  So we have Rob to look forward to, who just presented the crypto phone.
[46:05.710 --> 46:06.850]  How many of you are at that panel?
[46:07.390 --> 46:08.570]  That was pretty interesting, wasn't it?
[46:09.530 --> 46:09.950]  All right.
[46:12.010 --> 46:18.430]  Bernie, tell us something, because you probably know more about the whole crypto phone system than others up here.
[46:18.730 --> 46:22.770]  Tell us if this is something that is likely to work, something that we're likely to use.
[46:22.790 --> 46:23.770]  It definitely works.
[46:24.350 --> 46:35.010]  This is a system whereby private individuals can now, almost for the first time in this country, communicate securely between one another.
[46:35.330 --> 46:50.970]  I could call any member of this audience, and they could call me on a pair of phones that were modified by Rob's group in the Netherlands to encrypt your conversation in real time, both ways, with a fairly secure algorithm.
[46:50.970 --> 46:59.510]  And it uses a GSM standard, which a lot of carriers here in this country use now.
[47:00.450 --> 47:06.290]  The cost is coming down, and you can play with this technology yourself for free using the free client software.
[47:06.290 --> 47:15.390]  If you go to cryptophone.de, you can download that program, play with it, communicate securely by voice with anyone else over the internet.
[47:16.930 --> 47:19.870]  And you can explore... you can also communicate with one of the phones.
[47:19.950 --> 47:24.050]  So if only one person has a phone, you can communicate with them with a PC.
[47:24.210 --> 47:25.450]  Over the POTS line, not the internet.
[47:25.650 --> 47:26.750]  It makes a data call.
[47:26.750 --> 47:27.390]  That's right, I'm sorry.
[47:27.530 --> 47:29.790]  It makes a data call over a POTS line, not over the internet.
[47:30.290 --> 47:31.370]  Thank you for correcting that.
[47:32.130 --> 47:37.170]  It's really exciting, because up until now, there's been a lot of secure phones, supposedly secure.
[47:37.390 --> 47:38.650]  None of them are really that secure.
[47:38.850 --> 47:42.430]  This is as secure as private sector has ever come up with.
[47:42.670 --> 47:44.770]  And these guys really owe a lot...
[47:44.770 --> 47:49.830]  We owe a lot to them for doing all this work to do this, because they think privacy is important, and so do we.
[47:49.830 --> 48:00.670]  I'm sure law enforcement intelligence agencies take a very dim view of this, but so far, encryption has not been outlawed, and we should use it as much as we can until it is, and then maybe on some.
[48:00.670 --> 48:08.590]  Well, the interesting thing about it is that in Europe, it's kind of... I mean, especially in Germany, they accept this, because especially in European countries, they have a lot of economic espionage.
[48:08.730 --> 48:16.530]  So the companies there actually like encryption, because it'll keep the other companies there... the other companies are spying on them.
[48:17.310 --> 48:17.970]  Good point.
[48:17.970 --> 48:23.290]  Yeah, economic espionage is very big in Europe, also in this country, just a lot of economic spying going on.
[48:23.450 --> 48:35.650]  But whatever, whether it's the government or industrial, corporate espionage you're worried about, if you have a company with a technology you're worried about being stolen, this is a very valuable tool to have.
[48:35.670 --> 48:38.110]  And up until now, you really didn't have access to it.
[48:38.210 --> 48:39.990]  So kudos to these guys.
[48:41.390 --> 48:50.450]  Speaking of kudos, there are many kudos owed to our resident designer and artist, Jen, who has come up with the incredible design we have here at the time.
[48:57.210 --> 49:04.750]  Jen, can you tell us something about the whole thought process that went into creating this artistic thing that's going on?
[49:04.750 --> 49:15.130]  I'm sorry, I've been up too long, my words are failing me, but if you've been to the hopes of the past, I think you will have noticed that this one has more artwork going on than ever before, and that's because we have Jen.
[49:16.010 --> 49:18.530]  Jen, well, it's about time somebody brought design to 2600.
[49:21.650 --> 49:22.890]  Well, you know, anyway.
[49:23.170 --> 49:34.370]  So, yeah, basically, I have a band, I'm a friend of a band back home in Colorado called The Frenchman, and they have a song.
[49:34.590 --> 49:39.070]  And one of the lines in the song is, I'm into fascism for the fashion.
[49:40.510 --> 49:43.370]  And that was sort of my motto with this whole thing.
[49:43.370 --> 49:53.290]  What I wanted to do was talk about, make a statement about police state and how corporations propaganda is everywhere now.
[49:53.290 --> 49:58.870]  And I just wanted to bring that in with heathfuls of irony all over the place.
[49:58.870 --> 50:21.430]  So what you see in this room is homage to some fascist photographs I found from the Nazi Party rallies and from Democratic National Conventions in 1861 and some, or 1860, and some other old vintage photographs I found.
[50:21.430 --> 50:25.930]  And I came up with just a simple scheme to recreate it with spray paint.
[50:26.930 --> 50:27.950]  And here it is.
[50:28.610 --> 50:33.610]  So we have tall, skinny red banners and scalloping and all kinds of fancy...
[50:36.630 --> 50:39.390]  If you're out there in Radioland, this looks like V.I.
[50:39.490 --> 50:40.550]  Lennon's funeral in here.
[50:40.570 --> 50:49.310]  Now, some of your work, Jen, was deemed too controversial for 7th Avenue, where we have some nice windows that were showing one of your paintings.
[50:49.310 --> 50:51.050]  Do you maybe want to describe that?
[50:51.390 --> 50:53.350]  Yeah, I've finally been censored.
[51:00.860 --> 51:05.700]  For the front windows of the Hotel Pennsylvania, the very big windows are facing 7th Avenue.
[51:05.960 --> 51:11.680]  And I came up with two canvases, which I did paintings, oil on canvas, you know, Van Gogh style.
[51:12.880 --> 51:18.600]  And one depicted an astronaut on planet Earth holding an upside down flag.
[51:19.460 --> 51:21.380]  So that's a sign of dissent.
[51:21.580 --> 51:23.440]  The flag has 51 stars on it.
[51:24.020 --> 51:27.780]  In the astronaut's mask is the monolith from 2001.
[51:28.260 --> 51:32.720]  And the whole idea is this is a hacker on planet Earth.
[51:32.720 --> 51:35.420]  He's raising the flag of dissent and distress.
[51:36.980 --> 51:42.400]  The 51 star, you know, represents our international policy lately.
[51:45.380 --> 51:48.300]  And apparently this is too controversial for New York City.
[51:48.300 --> 51:48.660]  Well, people...
[51:48.660 --> 51:54.100]  I talked to some people at the hotel and, I mean, they basically have to answer to upper management.
[51:54.340 --> 52:01.320]  But what was happening apparently were people were walking by on the sidewalk and they were horribly disturbed by seeing such a display.
[52:01.320 --> 52:03.140]  And they actually were calling the hotel.
[52:03.240 --> 52:07.400]  They were calling the hotel long after we took them down, too, saying that they were still disturbed by it.
[52:07.560 --> 52:13.880]  I don't know what they expected us to do at that point, but they wanted us to do something, go back in time and fix it.
[52:14.700 --> 52:17.260]  But the posters are still up, just not in the window.
[52:17.400 --> 52:18.080]  Just not in the window.
[52:18.340 --> 52:20.780]  We have all kinds of other posters we're putting up as well.
[52:21.160 --> 52:27.820]  In addition to Jen, we have an artist from Quebec who made all the Big Brother posters that you see all over the place as well.
[52:27.960 --> 52:28.780]  Which are awesome.
[52:28.920 --> 52:29.740]  They're incredible.
[52:29.740 --> 52:30.420]  They really are.
[52:30.500 --> 52:30.980]  See you around?
[52:30.980 --> 52:32.060]  The one in back of me right now.
[52:32.580 --> 52:33.980]  No, it's not Hitler.
[52:33.980 --> 52:34.660]  It's Big Brother.
[52:34.800 --> 52:37.060]  He's got a mustache, but I just want to make that clear.
[52:37.400 --> 52:38.860]  He keeps staring at me.
[52:39.280 --> 52:40.520]  He's creeping me out.
[52:40.880 --> 52:41.920]  No matter where you're from.
[52:42.020 --> 52:42.440]  He's protecting you.
[52:42.440 --> 52:42.920]  He's protecting you.
[52:43.200 --> 52:48.040]  I think the Big Brother was also a subject of some concern, actually.
[52:48.040 --> 52:57.160]  If you go up the main elevators in the hotel and head up to the 18th floor, if you look straight down the hallway, you can see straight into one of the rooms.
[52:58.040 --> 53:00.800]  And the banner is right on the back of the room.
[53:00.800 --> 53:06.740]  And you can clearly see that there are, you know, all these red banners coming down, red and black, you know, very common, very scary.
[53:07.240 --> 53:13.800]  And the hotel expressed a little concern about it and asked us to kind of keep the doors shut.
[53:17.880 --> 53:26.320]  So, this artwork has made quite an impact, not only on us thinking, wow, that's great, this communism for the fashions as it is.
[53:26.760 --> 53:28.840]  But it's made an impression on other people as well.
[53:29.840 --> 53:39.720]  And if you want to see Jen's artwork with the upside down flag, if you go to hope.net on the homepage for this conference, you can see what caused all the controversy.
[53:41.040 --> 53:49.540]  And if you come to the conference, you can see even more controversy as we bring you panels until Sunday night with, I guess, things that people will be talking about for quite some time.
[53:50.880 --> 53:52.840]  So, yeah, we have artwork here.
[53:52.960 --> 53:55.300]  We have all kinds of technical talks.
[53:55.400 --> 54:03.560]  We've got great keynote speakers and a whole lot of fun as far as the crowd, just the people that show up to these things.
[54:03.640 --> 54:08.040]  It's really cool to see some of you after not having seen these for the last couple of years.
[54:08.680 --> 54:19.120]  So, again, if people are out there that want to come to the conference, it's taking place at the Hotel Pennsylvania for the next few days over the weekend, right across the street from Madison Square Garden and Penn Station.
[54:19.520 --> 54:22.860]  And more information at www.hope.net.
[54:23.820 --> 54:28.820]  You're listening to a live two-hour radio broadcast of Off the Hook on WBAI New York.
[54:30.140 --> 54:31.520]  And is there anyone else?
[54:31.660 --> 54:33.040]  Laszlo, you have Rob there.
[54:33.180 --> 54:35.760]  Yeah, we have organizers from other hacker conventions.
[54:35.920 --> 54:37.000]  Organizers from other hacker conventions.
[54:37.080 --> 54:40.000]  Well, Rob, tell us something about your hacker conventions over in Holland.
[54:40.100 --> 54:40.860]  Can people see Rob?
[54:47.350 --> 54:53.270]  I organized a hacker convention in 2001 in Amsterdam where I helped organize it together with a bunch of other people.
[54:54.470 --> 54:55.410]  And that was fun.
[54:55.990 --> 54:56.890]  You were there.
[54:57.050 --> 54:57.550]  I was there.
[54:57.790 --> 54:58.350]  I remember it.
[54:59.410 --> 55:08.630]  We do our conventions out on fields in the open with big tents and sort of as a camping trip more than as a big city thing, which is different.
[55:08.890 --> 55:11.390]  There's less people just stepping in off the street.
[55:11.390 --> 55:13.450]  It's more of an in-crowd thing.
[55:13.890 --> 55:16.090]  But it's different because everybody's camping out.
[55:16.210 --> 55:17.170]  They're much closer together.
[55:17.170 --> 55:20.350]  It's fun in a different but also very funny way.
[55:20.830 --> 55:24.510]  How many of you went to that conference or one of the hacker camps?
[55:25.550 --> 55:25.930]  A few.
[55:26.190 --> 55:26.790]  But you know what?
[55:26.870 --> 55:29.390]  A lot of you should go because they really are a lot of fun.
[55:29.510 --> 55:30.010]  They really are.
[55:30.090 --> 55:31.350]  It is amazing.
[55:31.730 --> 55:39.090]  I was able to go to HAL and to the CCC camp this past summer and it was unbelievable.
[55:39.590 --> 55:40.290]  They're incredible.
[55:40.770 --> 55:44.490]  Being at HAL, I think I actually gained a lot by actually camping out.
[55:44.490 --> 55:47.090]  And I stayed out in a tent, actually donated by ROP.
[55:48.230 --> 55:49.910]  And it was amazing.
[55:50.110 --> 55:56.730]  It was probably one of the most memorable hacker events I've ever been to.
[55:57.330 --> 56:00.510]  Even just the infrastructure that goes into it with all the...
[56:00.510 --> 56:03.630]  There's power generators and there's network running all over the place.
[56:03.990 --> 56:11.290]  Kind of like here but kind of on a different level since the campsites were just in different areas and everybody was getting...
[56:11.290 --> 56:12.330]  It was just amazing.
[56:12.510 --> 56:15.590]  Something you have to see to believe and see to understand.
[56:15.890 --> 56:23.150]  It's really weird seeing all these tents with like cables going in and just the glow inside.
[56:23.150 --> 56:25.850]  And you walk by tents and people are just sitting there going...
[56:27.410 --> 56:29.950]  They're talking to each other on IRC, tent to tent.
[56:30.130 --> 56:30.830]  It's really...
[56:31.430 --> 56:33.790]  Kind of pathetic in some ways but also kind of interesting.
[56:34.390 --> 56:35.370]  That was pretty intense.
[56:35.710 --> 56:36.670]  How many of you...
[56:37.610 --> 56:39.070]  I was gonna do that.
[56:39.970 --> 56:46.170]  How many of you have ever camped out and had Wi-Fi access faster than what you have at home on your broadband?
[56:46.810 --> 56:49.910]  I don't know how you guys get the access that you get but...
[56:49.910 --> 56:52.350]  Didn't they have a microwave link to Berlin?
[56:53.610 --> 56:54.050]  I think so.
[56:54.890 --> 56:57.590]  I think at CCC camp there was a link to Berlin, wasn't there?
[56:57.930 --> 56:59.570]  Yeah, there was a radio link.
[56:59.570 --> 57:03.010]  I think it was 144 or two times 144 megabits.
[57:03.010 --> 57:03.570]  Mm-hmm.
[57:03.710 --> 57:03.990]  Mm-hmm.
[57:04.710 --> 57:05.110]  We...
[57:05.110 --> 57:12.250]  At our Hal thing, we had a gigabit and we had another gigabit spare from the university that we were on their campus.
[57:12.850 --> 57:13.610]  So we...
[57:13.610 --> 57:14.630]  We had a lot of bandwidth.
[57:15.970 --> 57:21.010]  And we have the network thing down to the point where people would set up their tents and as they were setting it...
[57:21.010 --> 57:25.770]  As they were still busy setting it up, somebody would walk up and say, Hey, I got a network cable for you.
[57:25.850 --> 57:26.810]  It's already plugged in.
[57:26.890 --> 57:27.750]  It's 100 megabits.
[57:27.910 --> 57:31.810]  If you're running servers or something, let me know because then I can plug it into a gigabit port.
[57:35.210 --> 57:35.690]  And...
[57:35.690 --> 57:37.270]  That was sort of funny.
[57:37.430 --> 57:38.150]  It was interesting.
[57:38.370 --> 57:44.730]  People got really like the 400 megabits worth of throughput in their tent, which really thrilled them.
[57:44.930 --> 57:50.610]  But the Germans gave us a challenge last year because their camp actually looked much cooler.
[57:50.610 --> 57:53.010]  Their camp looked really... Talk about artwork.
[57:53.190 --> 57:54.070]  They really had a lot going on.
[57:54.070 --> 57:55.190]  They did amazing artwork.
[57:55.490 --> 58:00.850]  At night, they had all these light projections on the tents and really psychedelic stuff happening with lights.
[58:00.990 --> 58:04.990]  And they had an alien craft landing place and rockets put up.
[58:05.130 --> 58:10.630]  And loads and loads of these plasma lights half buried in the ground.
[58:10.810 --> 58:11.770]  So at night, you sort of...
[58:11.770 --> 58:15.510]  There's suddenly this field with all these half balls sticking out of the ground.
[58:15.850 --> 58:17.130]  It was amazing.
[58:17.550 --> 58:19.510]  Smoke machines, lasers...
[58:19.510 --> 58:23.610]  By the way, it's 9 o'clock and this is WBAI New York.
[58:23.770 --> 58:28.750]  And it's also the Hotel Pennsylvania New York where we're broadcasting live from the Fifth Hope Conference.
[58:29.550 --> 58:31.330]  And again, still time to get down here.
[58:31.410 --> 58:32.990]  A lot going on all weekend long.
[58:34.150 --> 58:36.010]  www.hope.net for more information.
[58:36.190 --> 58:39.910]  Or just come by Hotel Pennsylvania across the street from Penn Station.
[58:40.230 --> 58:41.730]  Now, Rob, I have to say, you know...
[58:41.730 --> 58:41.750]  And this is the second one.
[00:00.380 --> 00:09.200]  By the way, it's 9 o'clock, and this is WBAI New York, and it's also the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York, where we're broadcasting live from the Fifth Hope Conference.
[00:09.880 --> 00:11.760]  And, again, still time to get down here.
[00:11.840 --> 00:13.420]  A lot of going on all weekend long.
[00:14.820 --> 00:20.360]  www.hope.net for more information, or just come by Hotel Pennsylvania across the street from Penn Station.
[00:20.600 --> 00:27.940]  Now, Rob, I have to say, you know, the first conference that I went to in Europe was the Galactic Hacker Party in 1989.
[00:28.620 --> 00:29.620]  Boy, were we young.
[00:29.620 --> 00:38.740]  I have to say, that conference, that conference just inspired me as a person to just do more, because I just saw so many people from around the world who were so cool and so into things.
[00:39.860 --> 00:43.820]  And from that point, I started thinking, well, you know, how can we do something like this in the States?
[00:44.400 --> 00:48.000]  And, you know, in 1993, I went to, what was it, HEU?
[00:48.700 --> 00:49.880]  Hacking at the End of the Universe.
[00:49.900 --> 00:55.480]  Hacking at the End of the Universe, which was another, it was a campsite thing, the first one of those.
[00:56.180 --> 01:01.960]  And, again, you know, after four years, I said to myself, you know, we've got to be able to do something like this in the States.
[01:03.400 --> 01:07.300]  And, fortunately, the next year, we were able to get together with a bunch of people, yourself being one of them.
[01:07.640 --> 01:10.480]  And we organized the first conference here, Hackers on Planet Earth.
[01:10.580 --> 01:16.420]  But, you know, none of it would have happened were it not for the conferences in Europe that so many of us were inspired by.
[01:16.420 --> 01:22.480]  So I think we owe you all a great debt of thanks for putting on those conferences and getting us here.
[01:29.050 --> 01:31.610]  Do you remember GHP, Galactic Hacker Party?
[01:31.750 --> 01:33.530]  That was in the Paradiso in Amsterdam.
[01:34.070 --> 01:39.810]  Yeah, Paradiso is, you have to picture, an old church building, complete with everything.
[01:40.990 --> 01:43.550]  The, what is it, the stained glass windows, everything.
[01:45.250 --> 01:47.450]  And completely turned into a rock temple.
[01:47.730 --> 01:48.710]  The stones played there.
[01:48.830 --> 01:49.810]  They record videos there.
[01:49.810 --> 01:50.830]  Bowie comes there.
[01:51.090 --> 01:51.850]  Even though there's only...
[01:51.850 --> 01:56.750]  It has only a capacity of, what, 1,000, 1,500 people.
[01:56.950 --> 02:00.050]  But all the big bands still like to come there because that's where they started.
[02:00.070 --> 02:01.110]  It was one of those things.
[02:01.210 --> 02:09.990]  And we completely turned it into a hacker thing, much like this hotel in 89, when people really had no idea what this was and what hacking was.
[02:10.110 --> 02:19.510]  And suddenly, all their microphone cables through the building, all their audio cables through the building were turned into Ethernet cables or serial cables or whatever we used back then.
[02:19.810 --> 02:20.870]  It was weird.
[02:21.030 --> 02:21.410]  It was funny.
[02:21.990 --> 02:22.090]  Yeah.
[02:22.370 --> 02:23.810]  Now, you're planning something for next year.
[02:24.070 --> 02:24.890]  Tell us something about that.
[02:25.790 --> 02:28.790]  We're still in this sort of planning phase.
[02:28.790 --> 02:30.970]  We're still working on what it is exactly that we do.
[02:31.050 --> 02:32.630]  We have no location for it yet.
[02:32.630 --> 02:36.650]  But we do plan to do something next year in the summer in Holland.
[02:37.070 --> 02:38.230]  We just don't know what yet.
[02:38.970 --> 02:39.350]  Great.
[02:39.350 --> 02:41.710]  Every four years, something happens in Holland.
[02:41.970 --> 02:43.290]  And on the other...
[02:43.290 --> 02:45.270]  Every four years, something happens in Germany.
[02:45.470 --> 02:45.970]  And in between...
[02:45.970 --> 02:46.410]  Every two years.
[02:46.610 --> 02:50.130]  One year before us, every two years, there's something in Germany.
[02:50.690 --> 02:50.930]  Yeah.
[02:51.010 --> 02:52.090]  That's sort of what I was trying to say.
[02:52.250 --> 02:55.190]  But basically, you're next in Holland.
[02:55.410 --> 02:57.930]  Then we'll have another conference in 2006, most likely.
[02:58.090 --> 02:59.770]  Then in 2007, we'll be Germany.
[03:00.430 --> 03:01.390]  2008, us again.
[03:01.490 --> 03:02.970]  And then 2009, and it'll be you again.
[03:03.650 --> 03:04.310]  Something like that.
[03:04.310 --> 03:04.950]  Something like that.
[03:05.410 --> 03:09.150]  There's sort of a long galactic cycle developing here.
[03:09.330 --> 03:10.290]  But if you have a country...
[03:10.290 --> 03:18.570]  If you have a city or a country that is under your control and you wish to do hacker conferences, feel free to break this cycle and somehow do cool stuff that is not part of this.
[03:18.570 --> 03:19.290]  Open to any country.
[03:19.510 --> 03:20.290]  So, yeah, please.
[03:20.490 --> 03:21.510]  You know, Togo, whatever.
[03:21.630 --> 03:23.350]  Just come to us and...
[03:23.350 --> 03:28.890]  Your homework assignment is to come up with an algorithm that explains this, the Olympics, and the presidential election.
[03:32.000 --> 03:38.000]  You know, I was wondering, what would have happened if we had scheduled our conference for, say, oh, I don't know, late August in this hotel.
[03:38.780 --> 03:39.740]  And we had done it.
[03:39.900 --> 03:43.320]  We had done it before the Republicans had decided when to schedule theirs.
[03:43.560 --> 03:45.200]  And, you know, next time...
[03:45.200 --> 03:46.280]  It would have been preempted.
[03:46.620 --> 03:51.500]  2008, I think I'm going to try and schedule it so it really messes up their schedule.
[03:52.380 --> 03:53.520]  This is the ultimate hack.
[03:59.400 --> 04:01.000]  No, they'll just kick us out.
[04:01.220 --> 04:02.140]  They don't want to start us.
[04:02.400 --> 04:05.200]  You know there were Republicans, like, floating around the hotel yesterday.
[04:05.200 --> 04:05.960]  Yeah, every so often.
[04:05.960 --> 04:11.160]  Every so often, Republicans come in to check the phone lines because they've installed a whole bunch of phone lines here, too, for the convention.
[04:11.520 --> 04:13.240]  Unlike ours, theirs might work.
[04:13.420 --> 04:14.220]  Yeah, theirs are working.
[04:15.740 --> 04:18.500]  No, I remember during setup yesterday, it was like a spectacle.
[04:18.700 --> 04:18.860]  Yeah.
[04:19.140 --> 04:21.540]  The Republicans were here, and everyone had to take a picture.
[04:21.740 --> 04:22.740]  All these people with suits.
[04:23.100 --> 04:24.200]  Fat people with suits.
[04:24.320 --> 04:26.540]  These are the phone outlets marked RNC.
[04:26.740 --> 04:27.980]  Don't tamper with them.
[04:28.080 --> 04:28.940]  Don't do anything with them.
[04:29.080 --> 04:29.940]  They are for the Republicans.
[04:30.080 --> 04:30.780]  They're booby-trapped.
[04:32.100 --> 04:33.100]  We got there first.
[04:36.220 --> 04:39.800]  Okay, so as many of you as possible, please come to the thing in Holland next year.
[04:39.960 --> 04:41.780]  When is the announcement going to be made as far as...
[04:41.780 --> 04:42.400]  Is there a name yet?
[04:43.280 --> 04:46.720]  There's not a real name yet, and we're still working on everything.
[04:46.940 --> 04:48.440]  So, no, there's nothing definitive yet.
[04:49.000 --> 04:50.760]  Okay, well, keep listening.
[04:50.880 --> 04:52.260]  They will be soon, and it's always great.
[04:52.320 --> 04:52.460]  Stay tuned.
[04:53.060 --> 04:53.480]  All right.
[04:53.780 --> 04:55.020]  Is there anybody else that we...
[04:55.020 --> 04:56.680]  You know, Emmanuel, I think I saw...
[04:56.680 --> 04:59.540]  He's behind the column now, but I think Dan Morgan is over there.
[04:59.640 --> 05:00.360]  Is Dan Morgan over there?
[05:00.360 --> 05:02.220]  Well, did I see him up to the stage?
[05:03.580 --> 05:04.420]  Is he over there?
[05:04.820 --> 05:05.960]  Or were you hallucinating?
[05:06.340 --> 05:07.420]  No, it was a while ago.
[05:07.560 --> 05:08.220]  He may have walked away.
[05:08.420 --> 05:09.260]  Well, Dan Morgan was here.
[05:09.480 --> 05:17.420]  He was on a panel before talking about when corporations attack, along with a bunch of other people that have had similar tales of woe.
[05:17.960 --> 05:21.960]  And, well, I mean, that was quite a story, what happened to him.
[05:21.960 --> 05:27.080]  He ran Satellite Watch News and was driven out of business by the powers that be.
[05:27.080 --> 05:31.920]  And it's great to have him here in New York, too, where he can tell a story to a receptive audience.
[05:32.360 --> 05:36.700]  There are a lot of stories out there to tell, and we're trying to bring as many of them to you as possible.
[05:37.080 --> 05:40.320]  So that's one of them, and I'm sure there'll be more throughout the weekend.
[05:40.620 --> 05:46.140]  Once again, you can see his video tomorrow, provided it makes it here through Amtrak, and see exactly what he was doing.
[05:46.700 --> 05:48.040]  Bernie, tell us something about this video.
[05:48.200 --> 05:50.080]  This is the direct...
[05:50.080 --> 05:53.440]  Pirate Video 9, the DBS hack.
[05:53.640 --> 05:55.560]  Dan spoke about this earlier today.
[05:56.480 --> 06:07.640]  It's a really interesting documentary that covers the cat and mouse game that was going on between Satellite TV hackers and DirecTV and other satellite programming providers.
[06:11.340 --> 06:16.380]  Technology countermeasures and electronic counter-countermeasures and electronic counter-countermeasures.
[06:16.520 --> 06:17.940]  It went back and forth and back and forth.
[06:17.940 --> 06:26.980]  DirecTV would figure out some way to prevent people from downloading the signal and decrypting it, and the hackers would figure out a way around that, and then another counter-measure.
[06:27.120 --> 06:28.180]  It just went back and forth.
[06:29.060 --> 06:34.180]  And Dan did a great job documenting this whole saga, and it's very entertaining, too.
[06:34.300 --> 06:38.740]  It had a lot of human story behind it as well.
[06:38.740 --> 06:53.720]  And that video, an hour long, which we're going to show here tomorrow in the movie room, is part of what got Dan Morgan shut down by DirecTV, owned by General Motors and Hughes Aerospace.
[06:54.620 --> 07:04.260]  And there was nothing in the video that specifically said how to receive satellite programming without paying for it.
[07:04.260 --> 07:07.900]  It was a documentary that explained what was going on in the community.
[07:08.080 --> 07:09.240]  And it's really fascinating.
[07:09.240 --> 07:14.520]  So everybody who's here should try to catch this film tomorrow in the movie room, and the schedule's posted on the door.
[07:14.880 --> 07:17.180]  This is something that can happen to anybody, really.
[07:17.180 --> 07:25.000]  Anybody that messes with information and gets a large corporation angry for just saying the truth.
[07:25.000 --> 07:31.660]  What's interesting is the corporation, DirecTV, was not even an American company.
[07:31.900 --> 07:33.280]  I mean, it was an American company.
[07:33.340 --> 07:51.360]  Houston, a lot of companies that were doing this were in Canada, and a lot of companies were raided in Canada at the behest of an American corporation who got the world Canadian man of police to raid dozens and dozens of people who were hacking the satellite signal.
[07:51.360 --> 07:52.920]  And it was really an interesting precedent.
[07:53.420 --> 08:03.700]  What he pointed out in the film was that the Royal Canadian Man of Police themselves were watching DirecTV on their side of the border, which DirecTV specifically prohibited.
[08:04.560 --> 08:07.280]  So it's kind of a lot of interesting irony in the film.
[08:07.440 --> 08:08.200]  It's worth checking out.
[08:09.100 --> 08:09.360]  Okay.
[08:09.420 --> 08:10.860]  It'll be taking place in the movie room.
[08:11.000 --> 08:12.800]  Red Hack, do you want to tell us a little more about the movie room again?
[08:13.440 --> 08:15.580]  Well, I mean, it's running 24 hours.
[08:15.680 --> 08:16.620]  The schedule's on the door.
[08:16.800 --> 08:18.120]  A lot of interesting documentaries.
[08:18.460 --> 08:20.880]  I'm watching a lot of things I've never seen before.
[08:20.880 --> 08:23.540]  I'm having a great time with it, so I think all of you would, too.
[08:23.900 --> 08:24.820]  We were showing...
[08:24.820 --> 08:26.980]  I have the back open so that you can see what's going on.
[08:27.040 --> 08:29.220]  If it catches your eye, come in and sit down for a bit.
[08:29.640 --> 08:34.540]  Yeah, I saw a lot of people crowded by the entrance looking in, but they seemed afraid to go in.
[08:34.880 --> 08:35.880]  So don't be afraid.
[08:36.060 --> 08:39.040]  You know, they were showing North Korean propaganda films before.
[08:39.980 --> 08:41.440]  And they're in English for some reason.
[08:42.140 --> 08:44.020]  One of our friends from Holland brought this over.
[08:44.020 --> 08:50.880]  Emmanuel, I enjoyed the scene of the parade in Pyongyang with one million people marching.
[08:51.120 --> 08:52.040]  It was just awesome seeing this.
[08:52.040 --> 08:53.500]  They even had coordination with...
[08:53.500 --> 08:55.260]  They were all holding up different colored things.
[08:55.480 --> 08:58.140]  Flipping their colored flags in perfect synchronization.
[08:58.320 --> 08:59.320]  I don't know how they managed it.
[08:59.400 --> 08:59.660]  It would spell things out.
[08:59.880 --> 09:00.680]  That's enthusiasm.
[09:00.980 --> 09:03.120]  That's, you know, the kind of enthusiasm that we should have.
[09:03.200 --> 09:04.880]  People coming into the film room to see that.
[09:05.500 --> 09:07.540]  That's, yeah, it's a lot of fun.
[09:07.680 --> 09:09.180]  So, yes, not just hacker films.
[09:09.180 --> 09:13.240]  It's all kinds of different things that we all might be interested in.
[09:13.240 --> 09:14.620]  But, again, it's running all night long.
[09:14.620 --> 09:17.320]  And we'll have all kinds of surprises and fun things.
[09:17.460 --> 09:19.740]  And maybe rebroadcast some of the talks up here.
[09:19.820 --> 09:20.560]  We'll see if we can do that.
[09:20.680 --> 09:21.020]  Oh, yeah.
[09:21.420 --> 09:21.700]  All right.
[09:23.040 --> 09:24.600]  So, is anybody else up here?
[09:25.280 --> 09:26.640]  Okay, Dan Morgan's not here, then.
[09:27.380 --> 09:28.820]  You know, I thought I saw him before.
[09:29.120 --> 09:30.520]  Adam Parto's on his way up.
[09:30.860 --> 09:31.740]  Chris, who's over there.
[09:31.800 --> 09:34.820]  I don't know if you can even leave the board for a moment to come up here.
[09:35.360 --> 09:38.000]  It's Chris, our AV guy, who saved the day for us.
[09:38.000 --> 09:39.300]  Oh, he's got a microphone.
[09:44.330 --> 09:46.610]  So, we can talk to him without him leaving his board.
[09:46.730 --> 09:47.330]  That's even better.
[09:47.530 --> 09:48.150]  He has a microphone.
[09:48.610 --> 09:49.870]  Chris, do you have a microphone that works up there?
[09:51.230 --> 09:51.970]  I guess not.
[09:52.930 --> 09:53.650]  Okay, well...
[09:53.650 --> 09:54.570]  The only sound...
[09:54.570 --> 09:56.230]  I've always given him something to work on now.
[09:59.030 --> 10:01.750]  Okay, well, when you get that working, just butt in and say hi.
[10:01.750 --> 10:06.690]  And we can ask you some questions about AV and how it all works and sometimes doesn't.
[10:07.690 --> 10:11.770]  But, yeah, it's no small task getting this whole place set up and running.
[10:12.730 --> 10:13.810]  Okay, this is working.
[10:13.810 --> 10:14.410]  Oh, there he is.
[10:14.630 --> 10:19.370]  Chris, so you have a whole lot of people helping out, setting things up.
[10:20.310 --> 10:21.670]  Everything up and running so far?
[10:21.850 --> 10:23.390]  Yeah, so far things are going great.
[10:23.850 --> 10:31.850]  What really made the difference this time is we've got a whole lot of great volunteers that have just been doing a phenomenal job and working, you know, 12 hours straight.
[10:32.410 --> 10:38.610]  We worked for setting up yesterday from 8 in the morning until a little after midnight last night.
[10:39.070 --> 10:44.210]  And then the same people came back at 7.30 in the morning and were working until a couple hours ago.
[10:44.590 --> 10:50.450]  You might think it's an easy thing, getting microphones and sound and the picture working.
[10:50.850 --> 10:51.550]  It's not.
[10:51.570 --> 10:56.090]  It takes a lot of coordination and a lot of ability that I certainly don't have.
[10:56.090 --> 11:05.470]  And so I'm extremely happy that there are people out there willing to sacrifice their valuable time, come down here, help us out, get this thing set up, and just make it all run so smoothly.
[11:05.730 --> 11:08.090]  So, again, Chris, thank you so much for all you've done.
[11:08.450 --> 11:08.690]  Thank you.
[11:13.480 --> 11:15.680]  And do you still need any volunteers?
[11:16.520 --> 11:29.920]  Yes, we still need some people to help run the cameras, especially anyone who wants to see several programs in the B-track and would not mind running cameras while they're doing it and has experience running camcorders as well.
[11:30.380 --> 11:33.000]  That would be great because we're still short on people there.
[11:33.060 --> 11:38.800]  And we have a lot of people we've already used, you know, 10 hours today, and we have them slated to work most of the day tomorrow.
[11:38.800 --> 11:40.960]  So it would be great if we could spread the work around a little more.
[11:41.320 --> 11:44.080]  Yeah, we don't want anybody to burn out working too many hours.
[11:44.300 --> 11:44.980]  So, again, if you can help out...
[11:44.980 --> 11:45.780]  No, we did that last time.
[11:46.660 --> 11:51.620]  If you can help out, go see Chris after the show, and I'm certain that your efforts will be appreciated.
[11:52.580 --> 11:56.480]  So, yeah, volunteers in general are what make the HOPE conferences happen.
[11:57.260 --> 11:58.840]  There are so many aspects to it.
[11:58.960 --> 12:04.660]  And, of course, this time we had all kinds of design work as well, people staying up late into the night just decorating the place, making it look really cool.
[12:05.060 --> 12:15.620]  We have network people, people that help organize the speakers and make sure that everybody is where they're supposed to be, people making sure that the cameras are working, and all kinds of other things.
[12:15.740 --> 12:18.860]  So, yeah, it's not just what you see on stage.
[12:18.860 --> 12:22.220]  There's a whole lot that goes into this, and it takes months of planning.
[12:22.780 --> 12:24.080]  And it's a lot of fun, though.
[12:24.140 --> 12:26.960]  It's a lot of fun to have it all happen and to have people hear.
[12:28.720 --> 12:30.600]  Okay, so I've read along long enough about that.
[12:31.040 --> 12:36.760]  We're going to take questions at about 9.30, I guess, if people want to line up to the microphone.
[12:36.760 --> 12:40.000]  It's 9.10 now, according to this clock.
[12:40.020 --> 12:42.280]  So we have about 20 minutes before we do that.
[12:42.280 --> 12:51.220]  So if there's anyone else that we have to talk to as far as speakers or guests or anybody else, please bring them on up.
[12:51.340 --> 12:55.580]  The guy in charge of networking is coming up.
[12:55.580 --> 12:56.160]  Oh, networking.
[12:56.300 --> 12:56.580]  Okay, good.
[12:56.800 --> 12:57.960]  He's about to leave for the day.
[12:58.040 --> 12:59.680]  He hasn't slept since he got here.
[13:00.200 --> 13:03.320]  So he's on his way up, and hopefully he won't fall asleep in the elevator.
[13:03.400 --> 13:04.900]  He'll be able to tell us what's going to happen.
[13:04.900 --> 13:07.100]  We'll see somebody going up and down and not getting off the elevator.
[13:07.220 --> 13:08.020]  It might be our networking guy.
[13:08.480 --> 13:12.420]  You know, you mentioned taking questions, and I saw Rebel in the audience just itching.
[13:14.060 --> 13:15.260]  Well, we'll take his question.
[13:15.420 --> 13:18.600]  He can go down to the other side of the building, and we'll take it from there.
[13:18.920 --> 13:19.440]  Only kidding.
[13:19.840 --> 13:20.880]  We'll take questions from...
[13:20.880 --> 13:22.080]  Tonight, we'll let him call in.
[13:27.400 --> 13:28.900]  Let's see how many phones he has.
[13:30.020 --> 13:30.500]  All right.
[13:31.100 --> 13:31.900]  I'll read some mail.
[13:32.000 --> 13:33.440]  Read some listener mail, and...
[13:33.960 --> 13:34.580]  Oh, is that...
[13:34.580 --> 13:35.400]  I see Adam coming in.
[13:35.460 --> 13:36.080]  Yeah, there he is.
[13:37.040 --> 13:41.080]  Well, I'll read a couple of pieces of mail, and we'll get him set up and ask him what's going on.
[13:41.660 --> 13:43.380]  Dear Off the Hook, I love your show, your magazine.
[13:43.580 --> 13:45.400]  For a few weeks now, I've been working at a desk job.
[13:45.500 --> 13:48.300]  Your archive shows get me through the day.
[13:48.620 --> 13:52.180]  I laugh, I cry, I shake my fist at the MPAA and the rest of corporate America.
[13:52.420 --> 13:57.040]  I'm over in Vancouver, Canada, so whenever I hear about the laws, you guys are charged with breaking.
[13:57.160 --> 14:01.080]  I look them up on the web, since most of the time, I don't know how they would apply to me here in Canada.
[14:01.780 --> 14:04.480]  So thanks for making my mental gears turn.
[14:05.220 --> 14:05.780]  Signed, Lee.
[14:06.120 --> 14:14.660]  And we get letters like this all the time from people that are just happy to hear us on the radio and listen to us in all kinds of different places all around the world.
[14:15.520 --> 14:24.980]  And again, you know, having us on the net, having us being broadcast over the web, various other radio stations, shortwave, just getting out to more and more people.
[14:25.100 --> 14:25.860]  That makes all the difference.
[14:26.040 --> 14:30.060]  When we started the show back in 1988, we just had the radio station.
[14:30.200 --> 14:33.600]  And, you know, it's kind of silly to say we just had because that's a big deal.
[14:33.900 --> 14:37.740]  50,000-watt radio station, middle of New York City, and in the middle of the commercial band.
[14:38.160 --> 14:39.660]  That's a lot of people right there.
[14:39.780 --> 14:46.020]  But since then, due to the efforts of many people, like the people here, we've reached so many more.
[14:46.180 --> 14:54.040]  And it's made such a big difference because we can get calls from London and from Australia and from all over the place that we never could have reached before.
[14:54.340 --> 15:04.060]  And Porkchop, actually, you were instrumental back in 1997 in getting us to actually start archiving our shows and bringing real audio into the picture.
[15:04.060 --> 15:05.000]  We had never done that before.
[15:05.160 --> 15:09.380]  We had just broadcast the show on the station and that was it.
[15:09.500 --> 15:11.180]  You know, he couldn't listen to a show in the past.
[15:12.260 --> 15:14.340]  What was the process leading up to all that?
[15:14.460 --> 15:15.520]  That was more or less...
[15:16.840 --> 15:34.640]  Back in Beyond Hope, when we had Beyond Hope at the Puck building down on Houston Street, somebody wanted a high-end computer to encode for real audio to bring the stream over to another distribution server and everybody could hear the conference live.
[15:34.640 --> 15:35.680]  And it was a great idea.
[15:36.140 --> 15:43.620]  And I had a brand new 100 megahertz machine and so I donated it and we ran the stream off of it.
[15:43.740 --> 15:48.460]  And then when the conference was over, I said, hey, I can do this for the radio show every week.
[15:48.600 --> 15:49.620]  And so I did.
[15:50.620 --> 15:57.180]  With another group, my group and June's group is basically the same group of people that's been constantly...
[15:57.180 --> 15:58.700]  New people have been coming in.
[15:58.740 --> 16:00.100]  Old people have died out.
[16:01.740 --> 16:20.360]  And basically we had, I think the first couple of weeks we had 40 listener capacity and we actually got 30 or 40 listeners up to, I think, when I stopped doing it, back when we started doing the film, was we had a capacity of about 450 real audio listeners.
[16:20.620 --> 16:22.540]  And we were just starting with the MP3 thing.
[16:22.640 --> 16:28.280]  Of course now, real audio is a lot less cool than it was or there are more cool things instead of real audio.
[16:29.160 --> 16:32.060]  So we've gone from real audio to MP3.
[16:32.880 --> 16:35.960]  But yeah, that was new stuff for us.
[16:36.060 --> 16:37.280]  New stuff for BAI too.
[16:37.620 --> 16:39.020]  New stuff for radio shows in general.
[16:39.500 --> 16:44.480]  I think it's indicative of the whole hacker spirit to just come up to somebody and say, you know, I can do this.
[16:44.600 --> 16:49.560]  I can make this happen that we haven't done yet, that we didn't think we could do easily.
[16:50.340 --> 16:51.800]  And Porkchop made it happen.
[16:51.920 --> 16:53.880]  And then more people started helping out.
[16:54.040 --> 17:01.680]  And that pretty much brought us to the point where, you know, the radio station streams all the time and we stream all the shows and we have an incredible archive of shows.
[17:01.820 --> 17:16.100]  And I like occasionally just putting on an old show from, say, 10, 15 years ago and just hearing how things were different and how the phone system sounded different when you connect calls, you heard all kinds of things you don't hear anymore, different kinds of rings,
[17:16.360 --> 17:20.300]  clicks on the way get the connection, the overall quality of the phone line.
[17:20.580 --> 17:24.300]  So a lot has happened and I'm sure a lot will happen in the years ahead.
[17:24.300 --> 17:30.940]  So it's good to be paying attention so that you know when things are changing and playing with the technology as much as possible.
[17:31.860 --> 17:38.420]  Adam is here and he has been putting together the network downstairs and, well, working tirelessly.
[17:45.910 --> 17:46.410]  Thanks.
[17:47.090 --> 17:49.170]  I've been up since 11 a.m.
[17:49.270 --> 17:56.550]  yesterday, so I have a pretty decent brain capacity but I'm losing motor skills in my mouth so I don't talk so well right now.
[17:57.150 --> 18:03.010]  And I don't usually talk and do public speaking that well either so we'll see how this goes.
[18:04.290 --> 18:26.670]  But the big news is that after about, I guess, eight hours of constant pestering in social engineering by Gothchik, she berated Verizon and MCI into actually dealing with the T1 issues we were having and as of about half an hour ago we have both T1s up and running.
[18:26.930 --> 18:27.310]  All right.
[18:30.350 --> 18:32.150]  We all know it's important to the geeks.
[18:34.190 --> 18:40.950]  It's amazing how every time no matter how far in advance we plan it out Verizon always comes through in the end and screws it up.
[18:42.610 --> 18:43.770]  Well, that's what they do.
[18:43.930 --> 18:48.250]  You know, it seems that way and that's why the European hacker conferences work so well because they don't have Verizon.
[18:50.190 --> 18:52.370]  Try to buy a good T1 Verizon area.
[18:53.050 --> 18:53.910]  Dan Morgan is here.
[18:54.550 --> 18:55.110]  Dan, thank you.
[18:55.270 --> 18:55.990]  Welcome to New York.
[18:58.870 --> 19:00.150]  It's so good to have you here.
[19:00.270 --> 19:00.810]  Much fun.
[19:01.030 --> 19:02.070]  I've really enjoyed myself.
[19:02.350 --> 19:02.510]  Yeah.
[19:02.670 --> 19:04.950]  I've actually gotten some peace and quiet for the last six hours.
[19:06.210 --> 19:08.510]  Tell us some of the things that you talked about on your panel.
[19:08.630 --> 19:13.030]  Well, we talked about publishing a satellite magazine and meeting up with DirecTV.
[19:13.590 --> 19:16.670]  We published Satellite Hacker's Guide newsletter.
[19:17.050 --> 19:18.610]  I guess a newsletter is a good thing to say.
[19:28.890 --> 19:32.810]  New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and beyond.
[19:33.010 --> 19:36.810]  Get ready for a close encounter of the only kind.
[19:37.110 --> 19:44.030]  As the Midnight Ravers present on Friday, July 9th, 2004 on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[19:44.170 --> 19:45.210]  Talk about the power of love now.
[19:45.470 --> 19:46.930]  Intimate encounters.
[19:47.610 --> 19:49.470]  I'm going to tell you what love can do.
[19:49.770 --> 19:51.910]  Ballads of pure, soulful emotion.
[19:52.410 --> 19:56.350]  This show is guaranteed to warm your heart and bring joy to your soul.
[19:56.890 --> 20:09.690]  So snuggle up and get intimate with someone you love and join the Midnight Ravers Friday, July 9th, 2004 on WBAI 99.5 FM from 12 midnight to 3 a.m.
[20:09.810 --> 20:13.590]  as they present Intimate Encounters.
[20:14.470 --> 20:18.390]  3 hours of pure, unadulterated balance of soul.
[20:18.530 --> 20:24.250]  The Midnight Ravers where every show is a special.
[20:25.550 --> 20:27.470]  I'm talking about the power of love now.
[20:32.390 --> 20:34.850]  They don't like what someone is saying.
[20:35.510 --> 20:36.930]  Always support 2600.
[20:37.210 --> 20:40.410]  They do one hell of a great job and I'm very proud of Emmanuel on the team.
[20:40.830 --> 20:43.630]  Everybody involved did a real great job and thank you very much for your efforts.
[20:52.290 --> 21:01.870]  It's really an honor to have people like Dan here who understand the importance of speaking up and very often pay a very dear price for that.
[21:02.350 --> 21:06.810]  But I think we're all here to support him and support each other in those endeavors.
[21:07.130 --> 21:11.210]  You know, Emmanuel, right after you made that statement about Verizon sucking, the ISDN line went dark.
[21:11.390 --> 21:11.850]  Oh!
[21:13.170 --> 21:14.790]  For 60 seconds, it's back.
[21:14.970 --> 21:15.330]  All right.
[21:15.510 --> 21:16.970]  But watch what you say, they're listening.
[21:18.690 --> 21:21.910]  By the way, we should talk about how we're connected tonight to the radio station.
[21:22.030 --> 21:23.230]  Mike, you want to tell us something about this?
[21:23.310 --> 21:23.490]  Sure.
[21:23.530 --> 21:26.090]  We don't actually have an ISDN, Leslo.
[21:26.190 --> 21:28.290]  We have two analog phone lines.
[21:28.390 --> 21:30.950]  I guess we're using one analog phone line in this new device
[21:49.130 --> 21:51.390]  and when it works, it works pretty well.
[21:51.670 --> 21:56.810]  This is the second time tonight that we've had about a minute where we have to go run over the machine and kick it.
[21:58.510 --> 22:00.470]  But it's pretty neat technology.
[22:00.970 --> 22:01.270]  Yeah.
[22:01.370 --> 22:03.370]  In 1997, we used a Zephyr unit.
[22:03.570 --> 22:11.310]  We had ISDN line installed at the Puck building downtown and we connected to the ISDN number at the radio station.
[22:11.910 --> 22:16.930]  But this time, we're using regular POTS line and that's a first for us to be able to do that.
[22:16.930 --> 22:24.250]  And it also means that theoretically anybody with a phone line can get FM quality sound if they connect to an ISDN line.
[22:24.570 --> 22:28.930]  So it's getting to the stage where phone sound, I think, can improve quite a bit.
[22:29.110 --> 22:31.570]  And I don't know, you could have your own FM...
[22:31.570 --> 22:33.970]  Imagine talking to somebody on the phone and it doesn't sound like they're on the phone.
[22:34.030 --> 22:38.810]  I think one day that will be the ancient past where, you know, you sound like...
[22:38.810 --> 22:39.770]  You know, the Sprint sound.
[22:39.930 --> 22:40.750]  That's what I'm talking about.
[22:41.870 --> 22:45.470]  That will be a thing of the past and it'll sound like you're talking to somebody right next to you.
[22:47.190 --> 22:49.550]  Okay, I guess we're ready to take some questions.
[22:49.670 --> 22:55.290]  So if people want to line up and, you know, make like you're calling in, I guess that means Rebel will be first.
[22:55.670 --> 22:56.030]  So...
[22:56.750 --> 22:58.470]  Just stand right next to the microphone there.
[22:58.590 --> 23:00.470]  I'm going to read one more letter, though, before...
[23:00.470 --> 23:01.510]  I'm going to hold the microphone.
[23:01.630 --> 23:03.310]  Wait for the phone lines to start lighting up.
[23:04.350 --> 23:08.610]  I used to get telemarketing calls from a live person until I signed up for the Do Not Call list.
[23:08.890 --> 23:12.650]  Ever since I did that, the live people stopped calling and I now get calls from recordings.
[23:12.650 --> 23:23.610]  I have anonymous call rejection and call intercept on my line, but that doesn't work because I get calls on my caller ID with the number 802-034-7800.
[23:24.170 --> 23:25.790]  I may have to change my number.
[23:26.010 --> 23:27.890]  I tried call trace and that didn't work.
[23:28.050 --> 23:29.330]  Signed, John from Brooklyn.
[23:30.050 --> 23:41.510]  Well, John, what you're seeing is manipulation of caller ID data where basically any number can be sent and it's a number the 034 exchange cannot be dialed so you can't call them back.
[23:42.130 --> 23:45.650]  They are sending probably the area card 802, which I believe is Vermont.
[23:46.190 --> 23:46.890]  It's Utah.
[23:47.090 --> 23:47.550]  I'm sorry, Utah.
[23:48.070 --> 23:48.830]  That's 801.
[23:49.630 --> 23:50.490]  802 is Vermont?
[23:50.810 --> 23:51.050]  All right.
[23:51.330 --> 23:52.550]  Isn't 802 the Caribbean?
[23:53.370 --> 23:53.770]  No, that's...
[23:53.770 --> 23:54.790]  All right, 802 is somewhere.
[23:55.210 --> 23:56.430]  Yeah, 809 is the Caribbean.
[23:56.550 --> 23:57.470]  My question is...
[23:57.470 --> 23:57.930]  What is it, a test?
[23:58.150 --> 23:59.970]  No, 802 is Vermont.
[23:59.970 --> 24:03.330]  Okay, so probably the telemarketer is in Vermont somewhere.
[24:05.210 --> 24:08.250]  And they're messing with the rest of the numbers.
[24:08.370 --> 24:11.610]  But wait, what use is a telemarketing call if you can't contact them?
[24:11.990 --> 24:13.570]  I mean, how are you going to buy their product?
[24:13.710 --> 24:16.110]  pick up the phone and talk to them and buy their product when they annoy you.
[24:16.390 --> 24:17.950]  They don't want to be annoyed by you.
[24:19.730 --> 24:24.530]  But when we get telemarketing numbers, we generally spread them around so you can bother them whenever you want.
[24:24.570 --> 24:26.250]  And I'm sure lots of people will want to do that.
[24:27.170 --> 24:30.470]  This kind of thing is tough because they are sending caller ID.
[24:31.190 --> 24:34.010]  But, you know, the call trace thing is another rip-off.
[24:34.170 --> 24:40.430]  And I imagine he dialed star 5-7 or something and paid $1.50 for the right to report them or something like that.
[24:40.570 --> 24:41.590]  You don't have to go that route.
[24:41.730 --> 24:44.830]  You can go to the call the annoyance bureau that they're required to maintain.
[24:46.110 --> 24:50.090]  And they'll do it for free and they'll track down the number that called you and make them stop.
[24:51.170 --> 24:54.130]  All right, let's take our first listener phone call.
[24:54.390 --> 24:55.810]  And good evening, you're on the air.
[24:55.850 --> 24:58.710]  Guess who the first person is to talk.
[24:58.870 --> 24:59.470]  I don't know, Rebel.
[24:59.470 --> 25:01.770]  Rebel, how many phone lines do you have when you call us?
[25:01.890 --> 25:02.190]  50?
[25:02.750 --> 25:03.110]  60?
[25:03.810 --> 25:04.410]  How many?
[25:05.310 --> 25:06.630]  Rebel's documenting this, by the way.
[25:06.710 --> 25:08.070]  He's got his own camera crew.
[25:09.670 --> 25:10.990]  Do you have a question this week?
[25:11.090 --> 25:11.870]  Yeah, I'd like to mention it.
[25:11.870 --> 25:12.930]  You have it written down, okay.
[25:13.170 --> 25:13.570]  Of course.
[25:15.090 --> 25:16.310]  All right, that's...
[25:16.310 --> 25:23.990]  The best part is I asked him earlier how many times he's been on the show because he's got to have like little ticks on his bedpost that he marks off.
[25:24.170 --> 25:28.590]  He told us when the 10th anniversary was and we marked that well by I think being preempted, so...
[25:28.590 --> 25:34.590]  I'd like to mention that you can bill calls to your cell phone.
[25:34.650 --> 25:40.370]  I'm going to be speaking tomorrow at 8, at around this time, at 8 o'clock tomorrow night.
[25:40.650 --> 25:42.310]  In A-R-E-S-C, third track.
[25:42.790 --> 25:49.610]  But something else I wanted to mention, people who want to talk who have not been scheduled, you can sign up for the third track downstairs, I believe, or is it...
[25:49.610 --> 25:51.690]  No, you can sign up right outside Area C.
[25:51.870 --> 25:55.110]  There's three giant blue pieces of poster board and a Sharpie.
[25:55.190 --> 25:56.310]  Don't steal the Sharpie, please.
[25:56.450 --> 25:56.570]  Yeah.
[25:56.790 --> 25:57.970]  And just sign up.
[25:58.390 --> 26:03.170]  Yeah, and then we'll publicize that throughout the whole conference so people will know to come to your talk or to avoid your talk.
[26:03.470 --> 26:04.250]  Go ahead.
[26:04.670 --> 26:07.550]  I noticed that you can bill calls to your cell phone.
[26:07.550 --> 26:17.510]  I have a 917-9449 exchange and I could just go to any Verizon phone here in the New York City area and bill a third number call or collect call to my cell phone.
[26:17.630 --> 26:20.730]  This can only work on local calls, not long distance.
[26:21.030 --> 26:23.510]  You can do third number billing to your cell number.
[26:23.910 --> 26:26.950]  Any 917-449 exchange will accept that number.
[26:26.950 --> 26:27.450]  What company is that?
[26:28.250 --> 26:30.430]  917-449 is the Sprint PCS Exchange.
[26:30.630 --> 26:32.250]  I just social engineered that information out of him.
[26:32.330 --> 26:33.470]  Now I know what his phone company is.
[26:33.630 --> 26:34.430]  Sprint PCS.
[26:34.550 --> 26:35.210]  That's what he is, huh?
[26:35.430 --> 26:40.130]  Now, also, they'll have to try to dance away from that, I know, but, uh...
[26:40.130 --> 26:40.250]  Okay.
[26:40.530 --> 26:42.070]  No, calling cards don't work anymore.
[26:42.210 --> 26:42.590]  When you...
[26:42.590 --> 26:44.230]  You used to be able to use your...
[26:44.230 --> 26:44.590]  Wait, wait, wait.
[26:44.590 --> 26:45.430]  Let's stick on this for a second.
[26:45.530 --> 26:51.790]  So what you're saying is anybody with a Sprint PCS phone may be susceptible to somebody third-party billing just by...
[26:51.790 --> 26:53.010]  Well, no, they call for acceptance.
[26:53.190 --> 26:55.050]  The thing is that they can be called...
[26:55.050 --> 26:56.670]  My cell phone can be called collect.
[26:56.670 --> 26:57.950]  I can accept a collect call.
[26:58.570 --> 26:59.790]  I can charge...
[26:59.790 --> 27:00.730]  Let's say, information.
[27:01.230 --> 27:03.230]  Information costs money from Verizon pay phones.
[27:03.750 --> 27:10.630]  You call 0, area code 212, or anywhere in the New York City area, and then 555-1212.
[27:11.010 --> 27:14.650]  You bill it to your cell phone, pick up your cell phone, and accept the charges.
[27:15.470 --> 27:17.550]  But don't you wind up paying for it on the cell phone?
[27:17.670 --> 27:18.070]  No.
[27:18.270 --> 27:19.350]  I've been doing this for...
[27:19.350 --> 27:19.830]  Oh, wait.
[27:19.850 --> 27:21.010]  That's the other part you didn't mention.
[27:21.090 --> 27:22.250]  You don't actually get the bill?
[27:22.490 --> 27:22.830]  No.
[27:23.010 --> 27:23.310]  Oh.
[27:24.270 --> 27:26.090]  Well, that's an important little fact there.
[27:26.210 --> 27:26.450]  Okay.
[27:26.670 --> 27:27.050]  I'm sorry?
[27:30.250 --> 27:30.970]  Gee whiz.
[27:31.170 --> 27:31.890]  That is something.
[27:32.110 --> 27:36.170]  Well, I know back when Kevin was in prison, we figured out a way that he could call.
[27:36.350 --> 27:37.490]  Kevin, do you remember how we did this?
[27:38.190 --> 27:39.890]  You would call my cell phone somewhere.
[27:40.010 --> 27:42.510]  If you looked at Freedom Downtown, you'll see I'm talking to her on my cell phone.
[27:43.010 --> 27:44.850]  And you're not supposed to be able to do that, right?
[27:44.890 --> 27:47.590]  You're not supposed to be able to call cell phones from prison because you have to call collect.
[27:47.830 --> 27:50.130]  No, what I used to do is have somebody three-way you in.
[27:50.330 --> 27:50.690]  Uh-huh.
[27:51.210 --> 27:51.490]  Right?
[27:51.670 --> 27:53.110]  So, because I'd call somebody...
[27:53.110 --> 27:57.310]  I could only call collect, and then I'd have that person and I'd call three-way to...
[27:57.310 --> 27:58.110]  I don't like that.
[27:58.330 --> 27:59.050]  No, no, no.
[27:59.070 --> 28:00.390]  That's actually a rule violation.
[28:00.510 --> 28:05.250]  I got busted for it a couple times and they, you know, they write you up and they give you like extra duty.
[28:05.730 --> 28:08.190]  You get a thing called a shot for doing so.
[28:08.670 --> 28:09.790]  You got the shot?
[28:09.990 --> 28:10.110]  What?
[28:10.310 --> 28:12.870]  That's the terminology in the Bureau of Prisons.
[28:12.990 --> 28:13.890]  They call it a shot.
[28:14.290 --> 28:15.690]  It's like an incident report.
[28:16.310 --> 28:17.410]  Yeah, they're on like...
[28:17.410 --> 28:19.090]  It's a welcome to the jungle out there.
[28:19.310 --> 28:20.730]  So, um...
[28:20.730 --> 28:21.570]  So many cell phones.
[28:22.470 --> 28:23.190]  So, anyway.
[28:26.010 --> 28:27.110]  They frown on it.
[28:27.910 --> 28:28.290]  But...
[28:28.290 --> 28:35.790]  And I knew that when I was in custody they used to monitor my calls all the time and I used to do three-ways all the time but they didn't do anything about it.
[28:35.950 --> 28:41.730]  I think they were more interested in what the conversation was going to be rather than the rule being violated.
[28:42.450 --> 28:45.230]  Yeah, we used to do that regularly when Bernie was in prison.
[28:45.390 --> 28:46.110]  He would call me.
[28:46.810 --> 28:47.570]  Remember Bernie?
[28:48.170 --> 28:51.390]  Yes, I would call some special number that was set up, wouldn't I?
[28:51.530 --> 28:53.130]  You would call me.
[28:53.410 --> 28:54.990]  Are we supposed to be revealing all this?
[28:55.730 --> 28:56.050]  Well...
[28:56.050 --> 28:57.830]  The Statue of Invitations has run out, I hope?
[28:58.250 --> 28:58.850]  Well, I don't know.
[28:58.870 --> 28:59.790]  I'm still in probation.
[29:00.310 --> 29:02.030]  I'm the only one who could probably get in trouble about now.
[29:02.150 --> 29:02.910]  All right, cover your ears.
[29:03.390 --> 29:06.610]  So, you would call a number that would do what exactly?
[29:06.650 --> 29:11.690]  I would call a special number that I think would be forwarded to the studio.
[29:12.130 --> 29:12.750]  We did it.
[29:12.770 --> 29:13.450]  We did it manually.
[29:13.830 --> 29:18.610]  And I would have to call Collect because that's the only way you can make calls from prison, most prisons anyway.
[29:19.330 --> 29:23.310]  So, I had to make these Collect calls and almost in a week it really kept me going.
[29:23.310 --> 29:27.830]  Calling almost every weekend off the hook and getting feedback and support from people really kept me alive, frankly.
[29:27.970 --> 29:35.530]  We had two lines and what we did was on one line we called the special studio number, the other line you called us Collect and then we just freewayed it.
[29:35.530 --> 29:36.290]  And it worked very well.
[29:36.450 --> 29:46.490]  There was a period, I don't know if it was you, Fiber, or Kevin, where you could call a cell phone directly, Collect, and we would never get the bill.
[29:46.810 --> 29:47.550]  Yeah, I called you.
[29:47.550 --> 29:48.110]  That was Kevin.
[29:48.370 --> 29:49.010]  Was that you, Kevin?
[29:49.570 --> 29:52.870]  Yeah, I called you Collect a few times and for some reason you wouldn't get the bill.
[29:52.930 --> 29:53.410]  I don't know why.
[29:53.530 --> 30:01.750]  I mean, you know, I would gladly pay the bill but apparently their billing system wasn't set up so that it could handle that for some reason and then that got turned off.
[30:01.930 --> 30:26.030]  Yeah, something interesting when I first got arrested in Raleigh, North Carolina in 95, they put me in this county jail in Smithfield, North Carolina and somehow they have these private companies that would put in these prison-type telephones and one of the other guys accidentally dialed like a 113 and it dropped them into a dial tone and from that dial tone they can call anywhere in the world for
[30:26.030 --> 30:27.010]  free, right?
[30:27.210 --> 30:36.950]  So everybody was using it except me because if I was using it it was to start a nuclear war but if anyone else was using it it's, you know, making a free phone call so I always called Collect.
[30:38.610 --> 30:40.470]  Wow, how come you didn't discover the 113?
[30:41.430 --> 30:45.870]  Because I decided it would be it wouldn't be a good idea to be playing on the telephone.
[30:46.790 --> 30:47.230]  Yes.
[30:48.330 --> 30:50.070]  Did you program the 113?
[30:50.170 --> 30:50.870]  Did you set it up?
[30:52.030 --> 30:54.030]  I don't think the Statue of Limitations is wrong.
[30:54.090 --> 30:54.510]  Oh, okay.
[30:55.030 --> 30:56.450]  Next hope we'll talk about that.
[30:57.970 --> 31:00.310]  Oh, another question but make it fast there's people waiting.
[31:00.970 --> 31:05.510]  I'd also like to mention that there are 800 numbers that are being taken over by sex lines.
[31:05.610 --> 31:22.690]  In other words if you dial 1-800-NYCT-BUS like New York City Transit Bus or 1-800-GET-DIGITAL or one of those 1-800-VANITY numbers it goes to the same number and I'm going to be demonstrating that on my talk tomorrow at 8.
[31:22.990 --> 31:26.950]  It goes to the same recording which I'll be playing tomorrow at 8.
[31:26.950 --> 31:28.930]  And people can ask you questions there, right?
[31:28.990 --> 31:29.110]  Yeah.
[31:29.390 --> 31:29.590]  Good.
[31:30.330 --> 31:30.550]  All right.
[31:32.790 --> 31:33.670]  Next question.
[31:35.510 --> 31:41.870]  Hi, I'm Hartman from Louisville, Kentucky and I was wondering what are some of the specials on the Freedom Downtime DVD?
[31:42.650 --> 31:47.250]  Specifically, do you have that one screensaver looking thing with all the media icons?
[31:48.430 --> 31:49.770]  Wait, I'm not sure what you're asking.
[31:50.270 --> 31:54.030]  When you were talking about the media there's a bunch of icons.
[31:54.030 --> 31:55.070]  A bunch of the media.
[31:56.030 --> 31:56.370]  Exactly.
[31:57.370 --> 31:58.970]  Freedom's Greatest Hope or something like that.
[31:59.030 --> 32:00.550]  Yeah, what are you asking how we did that?
[32:00.690 --> 32:01.430]  ABC Rotating.
[32:01.450 --> 32:04.490]  If you have like that as a screensaver or something.
[32:04.510 --> 32:06.990]  That's actually a really good idea which I never thought of before.
[32:07.130 --> 32:09.290]  No, we did that inside of EditDV.
[32:09.450 --> 32:11.710]  That was an effect done in there.
[32:11.970 --> 32:13.290]  That's not actually a screensaver.
[32:14.170 --> 32:15.250]  But that's a good idea.
[32:15.370 --> 32:15.870]  That's a good idea.
[32:15.990 --> 32:19.370]  But you know, so many of them have consolidated since then that it would be a lot smaller than it was.
[32:19.370 --> 32:20.530]  You know, all these different entities.
[32:21.390 --> 32:23.590]  But yeah, it's a cool effect.
[32:23.770 --> 32:25.830]  There are a lot of really good specials on that disc.
[32:25.950 --> 32:29.270]  And one I really do want to point out because it was actually really amazing.
[32:29.470 --> 32:30.670]  Our friend Bernie S.
[32:30.750 --> 32:33.310]  here nearly took out the head of the mafia in Philadelphia.
[32:34.370 --> 32:35.770]  That's a story on the DVD.
[32:36.010 --> 32:36.710]  You can tell it briefly.
[32:36.710 --> 32:39.490]  He told this great, great version of the story.
[32:39.510 --> 32:42.350]  I don't want him to tell it here because it took him half an hour to do it before.
[32:42.590 --> 32:44.190]  But there's this half hour section on the DVD.
[32:44.610 --> 32:47.570]  When I was sitting there I was just hanging on every word.
[32:47.650 --> 32:48.770]  And you really have to see it.
[32:48.850 --> 32:49.350]  It's on the second.
[32:50.330 --> 32:53.770]  I think the second disc is as long as the movie itself, isn't it?
[32:54.330 --> 32:58.910]  We have something like three hours of deleted material or material we didn't use.
[32:59.270 --> 33:00.770]  And some of it is just priceless.
[33:00.770 --> 33:02.550]  But it had nothing to do with the subject matter.
[33:02.870 --> 33:08.950]  Like for instance, we did this whole tour of foundation imaging in California because we were friends with some people over there.
[33:09.090 --> 33:10.810]  And they just took us on this incredible tour.
[33:10.970 --> 33:22.690]  And they're talking about all their high-tech equipment which really isn't that high-tech by today's standards and how it takes hours and hours and hours to render a single frame and just things that have changed so much.
[33:22.810 --> 33:30.590]  I mean, TV shows were being rendered on Amigas back then and now you have the equivalent of Craze doing it.
[33:30.990 --> 33:34.510]  It's unbelievable just going on this tour and seeing how things changed.
[33:35.410 --> 33:36.810]  And so we included it there.
[33:36.990 --> 33:41.030]  It really had nothing to do with Kevin's story but we filmed it anyway and saved it for now.
[33:41.850 --> 33:42.510]  Thank you.
[33:42.790 --> 33:42.950]  All right.
[33:43.510 --> 33:44.250]  Next question.
[33:45.250 --> 33:45.810]  Hi, I'm Mike.
[33:45.950 --> 33:46.490]  I'm from Ottawa.
[33:46.990 --> 33:47.710]  Ottawa, Canada.
[33:47.890 --> 33:48.290]  Yeah, absolutely.
[33:49.550 --> 33:56.870]  Just kind of an inquiry as to what your thoughts are on the recent ruling of SOCAN versus Canadian ISPs.
[33:57.790 --> 34:10.550]  SOCAN, if some people here don't know, is the Canadian equivalent of the RIAA and how they were trying to, so much as what RIAA did was gather information from the ISPs as to who was downloading and it's still ongoing today.
[34:11.210 --> 34:16.430]  The ISPs fought this to maintain the privacy of their users and they won.
[34:17.150 --> 34:24.850]  I remember that and that was a good thing and I remember also hearing was it Paul Martin, the new Prime Minister who said that they were going to fix this?
[34:25.050 --> 34:25.370]  Absolutely.
[34:25.730 --> 34:25.950]  Uh-huh.
[34:26.370 --> 34:27.990]  So what exactly does that mean?
[34:28.070 --> 34:29.450]  Are you going to change the rules?
[34:29.830 --> 34:29.950]  What?
[34:30.590 --> 34:31.390]  It depends.
[34:31.990 --> 34:40.650]  I mean, Paul Martin is no longer a majority government, a minority government so, I mean, they'll go to Parliament but I guess it's up to the courts to decide from that.
[34:40.950 --> 34:46.030]  How do people in Canada generally view what's going on in this country regarding MPAA, RIAA, that kind of thing?
[34:46.210 --> 34:51.670]  Is it something that they shake their heads at or something that is a few months delayed up there?
[34:53.150 --> 35:01.570]  Oh, we get the news very quickly and we do get your news as well but our views on it are being light.
[35:03.730 --> 35:09.190]  We're a bit scared of it because oftentimes Canada will often mimic the USA as far as policies are concerned.
[35:09.190 --> 35:10.870]  Is it delayed as far as...
[35:10.870 --> 35:11.850]  It is delayed.
[35:12.210 --> 35:20.130]  I mean, we are usually in a year or a year and a half behind as far as policies are concerned but I'm not sure.
[35:20.270 --> 35:22.770]  I mean, a lot of things could change in the next year or so.
[35:24.250 --> 35:26.710]  So do you feel safe downloading music up there?
[35:26.890 --> 35:27.230]  Absolutely.
[35:27.450 --> 35:27.770]  You do?
[35:27.950 --> 35:28.350]  Absolutely.
[35:28.710 --> 35:29.750]  I understand.
[35:29.950 --> 35:31.490]  I'm reading the policy from...
[35:31.490 --> 35:40.910]  I use Rogers Internet which is a cable distributor and the policy then they do not share any of the public information for any reason.
[35:42.290 --> 35:43.830]  So it's pretty safe.
[35:44.330 --> 35:47.210]  Of course, the written policy often differs from what they actually do.
[35:47.690 --> 35:47.950]  Yeah.
[35:48.870 --> 35:49.050]  Okay.
[35:49.850 --> 35:51.570]  I'm asking you the questions but what's...
[35:51.570 --> 35:59.010]  Does the NPA have any kind of power over people there as far as...
[35:59.950 --> 36:00.970]  None whatsoever.
[36:01.290 --> 36:01.730]  None whatsoever.
[36:01.890 --> 36:01.990]  No.
[36:02.310 --> 36:04.510]  They are...
[36:08.330 --> 36:11.130]  I guess the NPA is...
[36:11.910 --> 36:16.510]  They have sort of a branch of it or was...
[36:16.510 --> 36:23.130]  The SOCAN which is the equivalent of the NPA was somewhat founded by the NPA but aside from that they are totally independent.
[36:24.090 --> 36:24.530]  so...
[36:24.530 --> 36:25.070]  All right.
[36:25.150 --> 36:26.590]  Canada, our same neighbors to the north.
[36:26.730 --> 36:27.010]  Thank you.
[36:27.190 --> 36:27.450]  Thank you.
[36:31.860 --> 36:33.800]  There's a lot of Canadians at this conference.
[36:33.860 --> 36:34.300]  I know you.
[36:34.680 --> 36:34.920]  Yeah.
[36:35.060 --> 36:35.240]  Hi.
[36:35.380 --> 36:36.120]  I'm Risk Taker.
[36:36.260 --> 36:36.880]  I'm from Germany.
[36:37.360 --> 36:41.200]  And Risk Taker here did the translation of Freedom Downtime into German on the DVD.
[36:48.310 --> 36:53.830]  You mentioned earlier how Satellite Watch magazine was shut down and how that could happen to anybody.
[36:54.850 --> 36:58.750]  Do you have an explanation why that hasn't happened to 2600 yet?
[37:00.190 --> 37:01.970]  You know, Dan, what do you think?
[37:02.250 --> 37:03.390]  Are we due for this kind of a thing?
[37:04.450 --> 37:05.430]  You've been lucky.
[37:06.870 --> 37:07.970]  I have a lot of friends.
[37:08.650 --> 37:21.810]  Actually, it's a wonderful thing and as a matter of fact if anything, unlike myself, when I got popped, I was doing talk radio, did a show every Wednesday night about satellite, you know, the big hacking topic there.
[37:21.810 --> 37:23.490]  I do a radio show every Wednesday night too.
[37:23.630 --> 37:26.950]  It's amazing how this hacking magazine's radio show...
[37:26.950 --> 37:27.350]  Anyway.
[37:27.670 --> 37:33.810]  Anyway, I was kind of in a niche hacking business.
[37:34.010 --> 37:35.350]  Satellite TV is really niche-y.
[37:35.510 --> 37:36.670]  It's very small.
[37:37.130 --> 37:44.150]  So your actual subscriber base probably hasn't grown to a tenth of years or didn't grow to a tenth of years.
[37:45.330 --> 37:47.190]  This is a different type of hacking here.
[37:47.290 --> 37:48.490]  It's a very diversified...
[37:48.490 --> 37:49.910]  2600 is very diversified.
[37:49.910 --> 37:50.470]  I wasn't.
[37:51.010 --> 37:56.530]  Everybody promised money and God bless a few that did donate and pretty substantial.
[37:56.670 --> 38:00.950]  I mean, to the tune of $5,000 and we needed about a million dollars to win that thing.
[38:01.190 --> 38:02.690]  But anyway, at least someone did.
[38:02.930 --> 38:11.650]  If he ever does get in trouble, reach deep, protect what you have because when his print media is gone, who's the next one?
[38:12.010 --> 38:17.090]  Is there any more that do what 2600 has done for everybody here?
[38:17.210 --> 38:17.950]  I don't think so.
[38:18.290 --> 38:29.170]  Well, you know, I have to say, we were attacked back in 2000 by the MPAA who sued us simply for having the DECSS code on our website.
[38:30.390 --> 38:32.130]  And, you know, it was scary.
[38:32.130 --> 38:44.090]  But I was never really afraid because so many people were there supporting us, not the least of which, of course, being the Electronic Frontier Foundation who stood up and provided us with lawyers and defense and all that kind of a thing.
[38:44.790 --> 38:53.750]  And while we lost the case and we lost the appeal, I think we won the war because we got the word out about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[38:53.850 --> 38:56.930]  And now, if you say DMCA, a lot of people know about it.
[38:57.010 --> 38:58.790]  And nobody knew about it before that.
[38:59.050 --> 39:04.470]  So I think there'll be a better candidate for someone who can actually overturn this law in the future.
[39:04.830 --> 39:07.930]  And I'm just happy that we were able to play a part in getting to that stage.
[39:08.130 --> 39:10.950]  And yeah, you know, they could have done all kinds of horrible things to us.
[39:11.410 --> 39:21.870]  But I never doubted for a moment that there weren't enough people around to really make a big stink and to just be there when we needed them for whatever emotional support, whatever was needed.
[39:22.430 --> 39:25.210]  So yeah, what Dan says definitely makes a lot of sense.
[39:25.350 --> 39:36.470]  And I think if we were focused on just one thing, for instance, if we just focused on computers or just focused on, say, Vax VMS and nothing else, yeah, maybe, you know, it would be easier to attack us just for that.
[39:36.570 --> 39:52.370]  But since we focused on so many different things and since hacking encompasses such a wide variety of subject matter, you know, we all understand the importance of it continuing even if we don't necessarily understand the material that's being defended or presented.
[39:52.930 --> 40:02.330]  So I think once we get all these different people under one roof and we agree that this kind of a thing is good, that's a lot of strength there and I think we see that around today.
[40:02.970 --> 40:04.250]  So, yes, Jeff.
[40:04.550 --> 40:05.290]  Yeah, quick question.
[40:05.430 --> 40:07.930]  And we talked about the magazine, we talked about about the radio show.
[40:08.190 --> 40:16.810]  I'm just curious because this is kind of a first for me, but how many people are here because of the magazine and then how many people are here because of the radio show?
[40:17.270 --> 40:19.290]  So just, how many people are here because of the magazine?
[40:19.410 --> 40:19.990]  Just put your hand up.
[40:20.070 --> 40:20.610]  I'm curious.
[40:21.590 --> 40:24.210]  The people in Radioland, boy, you can see that.
[40:24.310 --> 40:24.750]  That's something.
[40:25.810 --> 40:28.230]  Okay, now, who's here because of the radio show?
[40:29.950 --> 40:31.430]  You can't put your hand up twice.
[40:31.470 --> 40:32.210]  Yeah, what's up with that?
[40:32.490 --> 40:34.570]  No, they put up their other hand.
[40:34.670 --> 40:35.050]  Did you see that?
[40:35.050 --> 40:35.490]  Yes, yes.
[40:36.650 --> 40:37.610]  This guy didn't.
[40:38.490 --> 40:42.190]  Well, I'd say it's a little more for the magazine, but a fair number.
[40:42.470 --> 40:45.810]  See, we don't get to see what's going on when we do the radio show, so this is kind of fun.
[40:45.910 --> 40:48.030]  How many people are here because of the Village Voice article this week?
[40:49.250 --> 40:49.610]  Well.
[40:51.570 --> 40:53.090]  I guess we know who reads what.
[40:54.610 --> 40:57.030]  And then you've got to ask how many lawyers are in the audience.
[40:57.650 --> 40:58.350]  Well, let's not.
[40:58.830 --> 41:01.370]  Well, I've been on a lynch mob or anything like that.
[41:01.370 --> 41:02.150]  For a number of years.
[41:02.150 --> 41:05.790]  How many are here because they want to be a groupie for anybody on this panel?
[41:07.830 --> 41:08.730]  Your hands up!
[41:08.890 --> 41:09.390]  Your hands up!
[41:10.170 --> 41:10.950]  Did you see that?
[41:11.450 --> 41:11.810]  Okay.
[41:12.610 --> 41:13.350]  Well, are you finished?
[41:13.430 --> 41:14.370]  Do you have another question?
[41:14.450 --> 41:15.050]  Yeah, no, I'll finish.
[41:15.190 --> 41:15.470]  Thank you.
[41:15.910 --> 41:16.510]  Okay, thanks.
[41:16.670 --> 41:17.150]  Thanks again.
[41:22.740 --> 41:25.980]  Also, I just want to say a word for all the people who helped out on the DVD.
[41:26.200 --> 41:27.160]  We had so many people.
[41:27.360 --> 41:32.060]  We have 20 languages that were translated on that thing.
[41:33.640 --> 41:34.640]  24 subtitle tracks.
[41:34.720 --> 41:35.320]  You figure it out.
[41:37.660 --> 41:44.480]  And basically, what that means is people, and sometimes more than one person per language, got together and did the translation.
[41:44.840 --> 41:48.400]  And, you know, I don't know where the language is, so I don't know how hard it is.
[41:48.400 --> 41:55.560]  But I imagine it's not an easy task to sit there and go through all these words and get them right and make sure that it makes sense in a different language.
[41:55.980 --> 42:01.940]  So, I'd like to think this opens up to a lot more people to enjoy the film, understand the hacker culture a bit.
[42:02.780 --> 42:03.220]  Yes?
[42:03.360 --> 42:04.840]  Hi, I'm Dan from Albany.
[42:05.160 --> 42:09.580]  The last couple of Grand Theft Auto games have featured voice performances by some of you.
[42:09.940 --> 42:13.120]  And as luck would have it, there's another installation due out this year.
[42:13.280 --> 42:14.620]  Can we expect another cameo?
[42:15.140 --> 42:22.140]  Well, Laszlo, I think you're the person to ask this question, because you're the one responsible for what happened in the past.
[42:22.400 --> 42:23.720]  I have no official comment.
[42:26.820 --> 42:32.940]  Well, for those who don't know, Laszlo got Bernie S onto, what was it, Grand Theft Auto 3?
[42:33.760 --> 42:34.340]  Grand Theft Auto 3.
[42:34.340 --> 42:35.740]  Yes, he was in Grand Theft Auto 3.
[42:35.900 --> 42:37.260]  And I was in, which one?
[42:37.400 --> 42:37.900]  Vice City.
[42:38.020 --> 42:38.340]  Vice City.
[42:38.380 --> 42:38.960]  Have you played it?
[42:39.080 --> 42:44.000]  I don't have the necessary equipment to play it, and I don't have the time to play it, but I'd love to say that.
[42:44.560 --> 42:56.200]  One of the most interesting parts of Grand Theft Auto 3, as far as the part that Laszlo got me on, was we were able to hack the game from the standpoint of, I was able to shout, Free Kevin!
[42:56.700 --> 42:57.340]  In the game!
[42:57.680 --> 42:59.100]  There is a Free Kevin reference.
[43:04.350 --> 43:05.050]  That's true.
[43:06.830 --> 43:11.710]  That message got out into a whole lot of different TV shows, where they wanted to show a hacker in his room.
[43:11.870 --> 43:14.050]  What was that TV show on WB that did that?
[43:14.970 --> 43:15.490]  Dawson's Creek?
[43:15.690 --> 43:16.890]  No, it wasn't Dawson's Creek.
[43:17.370 --> 43:18.330]  Well, Felicity?
[43:18.490 --> 43:19.130]  What's the other show?
[43:19.430 --> 43:20.810]  Yeah, Felicity, I think that was it.
[43:21.170 --> 43:22.510]  Free Kevin sticker on the wall.
[43:22.650 --> 43:25.030]  And, you know, you just see these things in the weirdest places.
[43:25.270 --> 43:29.630]  And, you know, sometimes they ask permission, which you don't need to do, but it's just, it's kind of cool that message got out.
[43:30.170 --> 43:37.550]  I have to think, though, one of the weirdest places I ever saw that message get out was in a cable and wireless advertisement.
[43:38.090 --> 43:42.450]  I think we printed this for a free phone service, so that you could call your friends.
[43:42.970 --> 43:50.370]  And they were saying, you know, the person's name, and it said, Free Kevin, meaning you could call Kevin for free, but it was the same typeface and the same color.
[43:51.130 --> 43:53.910]  And then there was a Forbes magazine, wasn't there?
[43:54.510 --> 43:58.830]  We, there's always media hacking, there's unintentional media hacking with the 2600.
[43:59.050 --> 44:04.070]  Forbes magazine, there was a cover of 2600 probably back in 98, wasn't it?
[44:04.610 --> 44:05.570]  Oh, the subway.
[44:05.750 --> 44:12.130]  Yeah, the City Corp 51st and Lexington subway stop, where these big LED signs...
[44:12.130 --> 44:13.750]  It's the one where all the people are coming up the escalator.
[44:14.790 --> 44:16.650]  And there's a sign above them.
[44:16.830 --> 44:19.170]  There's these big LED signs above the escalators.
[44:19.290 --> 44:25.150]  And someone hacked into those signs to say the hacker quarterly and what issue was coming up.
[44:25.390 --> 44:34.150]  And somehow somebody took a picture of that and ended up on all the TV news stations in New York, like these hackers hacked the signs.
[44:34.310 --> 44:39.350]  Anyhow, somebody took that picture and I happened to know her.
[44:39.490 --> 44:42.390]  And I said, why don't you call AP and see if they want to buy your picture?
[44:42.490 --> 44:44.630]  Because she was a fledgling photographer.
[44:44.630 --> 44:45.930]  She'd never sold any of her work.
[44:46.110 --> 44:48.970]  So she went over to AP and they bought her photographs.
[44:50.050 --> 44:54.210]  So they just ended up in the Associated Press photo database.
[44:54.210 --> 45:02.450]  And Forbes magazine, a few years later, put it in some article about the economy, not realizing that it said the hacker quarterly and what volume and issue it was.
[45:02.610 --> 45:05.230]  So it was just amazing how this stuff ends up.
[45:06.390 --> 45:09.630]  Is the statute of limitations over on that yet, do you think?
[45:09.970 --> 45:10.930]  It was all coincidence.
[45:11.130 --> 45:14.150]  I don't know, you know, I'm not taking responsibility for anything.
[45:14.330 --> 45:24.990]  Okay, but just imagine, if you will, someone trying to hack a sign on an escalator, trying to enter whatever code and typing in a message while moving backwards at the same time.
[45:25.290 --> 45:33.810]  You know, trying to beat the rush hour because the people knew that the rush hour was going to start and all these people were going to come up the stairs and that was the cover.
[45:33.930 --> 45:35.290]  Whoever did it was truly crazy.
[45:35.410 --> 45:36.030]  It was something.
[45:36.410 --> 45:37.190]  It was genius.
[45:37.690 --> 45:38.130]  Emmanuel.
[45:39.410 --> 45:42.170]  But someone asked where I showed up in the other...
[45:42.170 --> 45:42.890]  I'm on the radio.
[45:42.890 --> 45:46.990]  So if you're stealing a car and you're listening to the radio, which I would never do.
[45:47.990 --> 45:49.830]  If you steal a car, you have to concentrate.
[45:49.930 --> 45:50.630]  Never turn on the radio.
[45:50.970 --> 45:51.610]  Oh, man, he won't.
[45:52.810 --> 45:56.170]  The freak Kevin sticker on Felicity was the work of J.J.
[45:56.310 --> 45:58.090]  Abrams, who's also created Alias.
[45:58.450 --> 46:06.950]  And he contacted me when I was a KFI talk show host and said, Hey, I've been watching your case for all these years, and would you come on Alias and play an FBI agent?
[46:07.550 --> 46:07.910]  Right?
[46:12.890 --> 46:18.530]  He was a CIA agent in a very small role in the fifth episode, but that's why he put the freak Kevin bumper sticker on the show.
[46:19.370 --> 46:20.370]  So it's pretty cool.
[46:20.530 --> 46:21.350]  Yeah, definitely.
[46:21.650 --> 46:22.030]  Next question.
[46:24.470 --> 46:27.870]  I do Albuquerque from Albuquerque Westside.
[46:28.350 --> 46:35.910]  If I may digress to caller ID, Quest has been ripping people off for $2.95 a month with a thing called security screen.
[46:36.130 --> 46:42.490]  You can break through it with the complicated acts of optiverting or using a calling card.
[46:42.490 --> 46:45.250]  And, of course, spoofing your caller ID at the same time.
[46:45.850 --> 46:48.490]  And also, what was common...
[46:49.890 --> 46:55.550]  What the community had a common agreement of what was Flex Annie is now...
[46:56.690 --> 47:02.370]  It has come out that it is CPN, call party number, and you can hear all about that in Default Radio Episode 31.
[47:03.190 --> 47:04.770]  So it's changed.
[47:05.110 --> 47:05.830]  Everything's changed.
[47:05.970 --> 47:08.150]  That's from Strom Carlson and some others.
[47:08.410 --> 47:12.550]  Can you just tell us, for the people listening, maybe people who don't know, opt diverting.
[47:12.730 --> 47:15.050]  Give us an example of what that means exactly.
[47:15.690 --> 47:19.090]  Going through an operator, local opt, 1010, 288, many ways.
[47:19.330 --> 47:20.890]  Getting them to connect a call for you.
[47:21.030 --> 47:21.530]  That's right.
[47:21.650 --> 47:23.150]  And very often, they don't want to do that.
[47:23.250 --> 47:26.330]  They say they're not allowed to do that, or they can't, but usually they can, right?
[47:26.330 --> 47:27.070]  I'm special.
[47:27.310 --> 47:28.250]  I'm visually impaired.
[47:28.690 --> 47:33.690]  And, yeah, so again, Quest has been ripping people off for a long, long time, 295 months.
[47:33.830 --> 47:34.590]  They're just...
[47:34.590 --> 47:35.990]  And tell us something about Default Radio.
[47:36.150 --> 47:36.410]  What's that?
[47:36.810 --> 47:37.650]  Defaultradio.com.
[47:37.810 --> 47:39.050]  That's Lucky 225.
[47:40.310 --> 47:41.410]  Decoder was on there.
[47:41.970 --> 47:42.950]  I was on last day.
[47:43.810 --> 47:44.690]  Very good show.
[47:44.890 --> 47:46.070]  Lots of good freaking information.
[47:46.370 --> 47:46.810]  Good stuff.
[47:47.930 --> 47:48.130]  Okay.
[47:48.230 --> 47:48.490]  Thank you.
[47:48.650 --> 47:48.990]  Thank you.
[47:53.530 --> 47:53.930]  Leo.
[47:54.130 --> 47:55.770]  Leo has a voice heard on the radio sometimes.
[47:55.930 --> 47:56.070]  Yeah.
[47:56.350 --> 47:57.170]  You have a question for us.
[47:57.450 --> 48:03.170]  Well, actually, it's a few comments, but I'll just mention opt diverting really fast right now because he mentioned it.
[48:03.610 --> 48:07.230]  What you do is call 1010-288-0.
[48:07.470 --> 48:08.930]  Here's the AT&T long distance.
[48:09.610 --> 48:12.110]  Then call a Bell South number, which I don't remember.
[48:12.330 --> 48:17.310]  And when you call Bell South using 1010-288, your NEI gets not...
[48:17.310 --> 48:20.190]  From what I understand, does not get passed to Bell South.
[48:20.510 --> 48:22.750]  So the Bell South asks you what number you're calling from.
[48:22.970 --> 48:31.290]  You give them any number that's, like, you know, 10 digits, and that's the NEI that they send out, which is why I keep getting phone calls from the White House Situation Room.
[48:31.290 --> 48:33.490]  Everyone always does the White House.
[48:33.670 --> 48:36.670]  It's the first number anyone ever programs in when they want to send a fake number.
[48:36.690 --> 48:38.470]  It's the most recognizable number of them all.
[48:39.250 --> 48:40.350]  Do you know what the number is?
[48:40.830 --> 48:42.430]  It's 024-something.
[48:44.430 --> 48:45.290]  I'm impressed.
[48:45.630 --> 48:45.990]  Thank you.
[48:46.510 --> 48:47.370]  465-something.
[48:47.590 --> 48:47.990]  But anyway...
[48:47.990 --> 48:49.630]  202-456-1414.
[48:51.390 --> 48:53.690]  The thing is, also, the Coke cans...
[48:53.690 --> 48:58.290]  I was reading some article that mentioned that Coca-Cola said they cannot be...
[48:59.450 --> 49:07.650]  the cans with the cellular phone inside look different and they're heavier than the normal cans, which makes me wonder how it's a contest that's random.
[49:08.290 --> 49:10.610]  I mean, if somebody behind me can probably answer that.
[49:11.110 --> 49:12.610]  Hang on, you guys step up to the microphone.
[49:12.930 --> 49:13.050]  Yeah.
[49:13.370 --> 49:13.590]  All right.
[49:15.150 --> 49:18.450]  The Coke contest is actually only in case quantities.
[49:18.510 --> 49:24.810]  When you get a case of 12 cans of Coke, you open it up and one of the cans will be the special cell phone can.
[49:24.810 --> 49:30.430]  And you can't tell until you've actually opened the case which case contains the cell phone.
[49:31.750 --> 49:36.590]  Also, in relation to that, the Furbies, they do not record your voice.
[49:36.610 --> 49:44.710]  It's actually just random sounds that they produce and how they know when you're speaking to them is that it sees the amplitude of a sound.
[49:44.850 --> 49:49.670]  So in other words, if you make a loud sound, they respond and the NSA didn't know about that.
[49:49.810 --> 49:53.350]  They thought that they recorded your voice and therefore banned it as a book.
[49:53.350 --> 50:01.230]  Well, they were actually concerned that someone could have hacked a Furby and changed the code in it to actually record classified information.
[50:01.230 --> 50:01.970]  They were that paranoid.
[50:02.110 --> 50:03.150]  But I guess you've got to be careful.
[50:03.730 --> 50:04.010]  Oh, yeah.
[50:04.330 --> 50:08.650]  And one more question which is how do people set up to be volunteers?
[50:08.970 --> 50:09.730]  Where do they go?
[50:10.050 --> 50:11.510]  How do people become volunteers?
[50:11.730 --> 50:12.670]  Mike, do you want to address that?
[50:13.270 --> 50:14.870]  They find Carrie who is...
[50:14.870 --> 50:15.490]  Is Carrie around?
[50:16.210 --> 50:16.650]  Probably...
[50:16.650 --> 50:17.570]  I think she was over there.
[50:17.730 --> 50:18.370]  Is Carrie here somewhere?
[50:19.570 --> 50:20.930]  We're seeing down a registration.
[50:21.290 --> 50:21.610]  She's probably...
[50:21.610 --> 50:24.510]  Carrie is a blonde woman and one of the stars of Freedom Downtime.
[50:24.810 --> 50:25.270]  That's right.
[50:25.810 --> 50:26.950]  But you can also...
[50:26.950 --> 50:27.750]  Can you go to the information desk?
[50:27.810 --> 50:28.770]  Yeah, come to the info desk.
[50:28.930 --> 50:33.610]  If you come to the info desk, I'll make you volunteer for the info desk, which is a wonderful place to volunteer.
[50:34.210 --> 50:36.010]  So all you out there...
[50:36.010 --> 50:38.010]  Yeah, we really do need people at the info desk.
[50:38.170 --> 50:43.090]  And the importance of that area is that people are here from out of town.
[50:43.290 --> 50:44.310]  They don't know where to go.
[50:44.550 --> 50:46.030]  They don't even know where to go in the building sometimes.
[50:46.650 --> 50:49.430]  So they need a friendly face to help them.
[50:49.730 --> 50:52.450]  And the faces there are friendly enough, but they're sparse.
[50:52.590 --> 50:53.370]  So we need more of them.
[50:53.570 --> 50:57.210]  I'm unfriendly, so we need people to counterbalance me.
[50:57.270 --> 50:59.690]  We're going to be a lot busier tomorrow than we are today.
[50:59.830 --> 51:01.230]  A lot of people work Fridays.
[51:01.410 --> 51:03.750]  They can't come here, but we're looking forward to meeting them tomorrow.
[51:04.010 --> 51:06.970]  So we need as many volunteers as possible to handle this rush.
[51:07.150 --> 51:07.970]  So please help out.
[51:08.110 --> 51:08.230]  Thanks.
[51:08.470 --> 51:09.890]  Area 3, come to the info desk.
[51:10.130 --> 51:12.630]  And the Phone Losers panel is today at 11.
[51:12.970 --> 51:13.670]  Just plugging in.
[51:13.670 --> 51:14.950]  Cleo's on the Phone Losers panel.
[51:15.430 --> 51:16.050]  All right.
[51:16.730 --> 51:17.430]  See you there.
[51:20.430 --> 51:20.870]  Yes.
[51:21.210 --> 51:21.590]  Hi.
[51:21.790 --> 51:22.490]  My name's Michael.
[51:22.490 --> 51:24.290]  I'm another Canadian from Ottawa.
[51:25.630 --> 51:33.810]  And a colleague and I have actually been trying to educate the politicians in Canada to make sure that Paul Martin doesn't fix this, as he said.
[51:34.150 --> 51:35.870]  I just wanted to clarify...
[51:35.870 --> 51:36.910]  Can I interrupt?
[51:37.170 --> 51:39.790]  You have politicians who are capable of being educated?
[51:40.070 --> 51:41.410]  I don't understand that as an American.
[51:41.430 --> 51:43.030]  Remains to be determined, actually.
[51:43.210 --> 51:52.590]  One of the interesting things is that in our recent election, there was a roll-up to who would be the leader.
[51:53.030 --> 52:07.010]  And the woman who lost the race was in charge of Heritage Canada, who was in charge of all of the laws involving what the record companies are going to take from you.
[52:07.810 --> 52:08.990]  So, she lost.
[52:08.990 --> 52:09.570]  She's out.
[52:09.710 --> 52:11.230]  She's not even in there.
[52:11.230 --> 52:13.870]  So, they owned her and she's not...
[52:13.870 --> 52:15.250]  doesn't have any power now.
[52:15.390 --> 52:18.930]  So, I don't know exactly where that power is going to go and it remains determined.
[52:19.450 --> 52:24.030]  But just to be clear, SOCAN is actually not the group that you think it is.
[52:24.170 --> 52:26.110]  It's not the Canadian version of the RII.
[52:26.110 --> 52:33.430]  There is a group called C-R-I-A, CRIA, and they're the people that are the Canadian version of that.
[52:33.590 --> 52:37.530]  They're the people that have tried to have get...
[52:37.530 --> 52:40.910]  again, get IP addresses of people of customer information.
[52:41.530 --> 52:45.270]  The case with SOCAN is actually even more bizarre than you'd imagine.
[52:45.570 --> 52:46.810]  The case with SOCAN...
[52:46.810 --> 52:55.550]  SOCAN is a group in Canada that originally listens to radio stations or actually makes you submit playlists, collects money from radio stations and redistributes to artists.
[52:56.110 --> 52:57.230]  Not independent artists.
[52:57.450 --> 52:58.110]  It's not real artists.
[52:58.310 --> 52:59.670]  It's just record companies, really.
[53:00.250 --> 53:01.090]  But, anyway.
[53:01.550 --> 53:05.190]  And we've had for some years a media levy.
[53:05.430 --> 53:09.950]  So you buy a blank hard drive or a blank tape or a blank DVD or CD.
[53:10.250 --> 53:11.490]  You pay a certain amount.
[53:11.610 --> 53:14.290]  It goes to SOCAN and SOCAN redistributes it.
[53:14.850 --> 53:20.830]  Since you already paid the fine, doing the crime is legal in Canada.
[53:21.050 --> 53:23.730]  That's why you can, quote, download...
[53:23.730 --> 53:29.390]  And I put that in quotes because TCPIP doesn't really have any concept of upload and download.
[53:29.550 --> 53:30.370]  They're all connections.
[53:30.710 --> 53:33.550]  And the politicians don't get that.
[53:34.050 --> 53:34.650]  Okay?
[53:34.890 --> 53:36.090]  So that's a real question.
[53:36.270 --> 53:37.610]  What is an upload?
[53:38.170 --> 53:41.110]  It turns out that an upload is illegal in Canada.
[53:41.390 --> 53:44.990]  So it's illegal to rip off an artist and give their stuff away.
[53:45.670 --> 53:54.410]  But it's okay to borrow someone's CD and copy it as long as you are downloading not uploading.
[53:54.610 --> 54:00.130]  And if you can figure out the difference between those two, you have a future in law in Ottawa.
[54:01.170 --> 54:01.610]  Okay?
[54:02.070 --> 54:03.490]  But just wanted to add...
[54:03.490 --> 54:13.630]  So we have this weird situation in Canada where SOCAN, having lost a particular battle that they just fought to get information from ISPs.
[54:13.750 --> 54:16.610]  And ISPs have been said, we're common carriers, blah, blah, blah.
[54:16.690 --> 54:18.170]  We don't have to give this out to you.
[54:18.750 --> 54:28.090]  SOCAN is about to say, aha, therefore, you have to pay us a subscriber fee for every one of your subscribers.
[54:28.830 --> 54:31.330]  So it's kind of we're between a rock and a hard place.
[54:31.470 --> 54:33.890]  If CREO run wins, we can't download.
[54:34.330 --> 54:39.250]  If SOCAN wins, we have to pay for the privilege even if we're not downloading.
[54:39.990 --> 54:41.470]  So we'll see what's going to happen.
[54:41.930 --> 54:42.450]  Okay.
[54:42.630 --> 54:44.030]  This also reminds me of something else.
[54:44.130 --> 54:47.990]  It's an example of how government doesn't get it when they make laws.
[54:48.150 --> 54:50.470]  And that's this concept of IP portability.
[54:50.630 --> 54:56.770]  You heard about this where basically you have the right to your IP if you switch to a different service.
[54:56.950 --> 55:02.130]  And that kind of a thing, it's just, it's going to break things like you would not believe.
[55:02.350 --> 55:03.610]  It's not like a phone number.
[55:04.990 --> 55:18.930]  I guess if we have more time we can talk about that It reminds me of when Congress back when it was the early part of the century they legislated that pi shall equal a finite number because it was too complicated to work with.
[55:19.050 --> 55:20.410]  Yeah, I swear.
[55:20.630 --> 55:22.450]  I read this in a book of little known facts.
[55:22.650 --> 55:23.670]  It wasn't Congress.
[55:23.870 --> 55:26.130]  It was, I believe, the Illinois State Legislature.
[55:26.310 --> 55:28.450]  I know it was one of the I states It was Kansas.
[55:28.830 --> 55:29.030]  Indiana?
[55:29.430 --> 55:30.030]  You're right.
[55:30.230 --> 55:31.250]  Indiana, aren't you?
[55:33.390 --> 55:35.170]  Okay, Adam has something to add.
[55:35.450 --> 55:46.870]  Just on the subject of the IP portability issue, the provider that brought us the internet, NAC, they have been sued for a customer that wanted to keep his address space.
[55:47.130 --> 56:11.410]  I actually filed a testimony stating about how this goes against every architectural design of the internet and we encourage people to actually if you know about these cases to actually file testimonies with the lawyers that are, you know, handling the defense of these cases because a judge that says that you can actually port that IP address to a different ISP,
[56:11.690 --> 56:13.970]  you know, how can the judge make that kind of judgment?
[56:15.550 --> 56:17.510]  You bring up an important point.
[56:17.610 --> 56:22.070]  Alex and folks at NAC.net, they're providing our connectivity as they have for the past few cons.
[56:22.330 --> 56:24.770]  I think they deserve a good round of applause just for their generosity.
[56:31.700 --> 56:34.520]  All right, we only have a couple of minutes left so let's quickly rebel.
[56:34.520 --> 56:38.040]  you've already been up so people who have not been up, you can ask us afterwards.
[56:38.380 --> 56:38.680]  The song.
[56:38.940 --> 56:41.040]  People, play the song during your panel.
[56:42.520 --> 56:44.360]  We don't have time for songs right now.
[56:45.140 --> 56:46.180]  You've already been up.
[56:46.820 --> 56:47.460]  Go ahead.
[56:48.080 --> 56:50.100]  Yeah, I had a question for Kevin.
[56:50.780 --> 56:52.820]  Can I ask a question?
[56:53.060 --> 56:53.380]  Sure.
[56:53.620 --> 56:53.840]  Go ahead.
[56:54.420 --> 57:00.500]  Yeah, you were actually in the Screensavers recently, actually not recently, but like what, three months ago?
[57:01.680 --> 57:02.680]  The Screensavers show?
[57:02.840 --> 57:02.860]  Yeah.
[57:03.300 --> 57:04.080]  I'm on there a lot.
[57:04.340 --> 57:04.720]  Yes.
[57:04.780 --> 57:06.220]  I don't know which episode you're talking about.
[57:06.580 --> 57:19.360]  There was an episode where you actually got on the internet the first time and you call and you defraud the caller ID and they've been asking all over the forums how you did it.
[57:19.440 --> 57:26.040]  Was it a Watts extension or was it like an ISDN PRI connection?
[57:26.360 --> 57:28.440]  Oh, you're talking about the spoofing the caller ID?
[57:28.660 --> 57:28.840]  yes.
[57:29.560 --> 57:55.100]  Oh, well, there's a particular company that has a telephony developer community and I was able to work with another friend of mine and we wrote an XML script, a voice XML script so we could basically through their site and we're able to basically punch in through DTMF the number that we're calling and the number we're calling from.
[57:55.120 --> 57:59.500]  It's our script that's running and their equipment actually spoofs the caller ID for us.
[58:00.060 --> 58:00.400]  Oh, okay.
[58:00.600 --> 58:02.400]  You know exactly what equipment they have?
[58:02.900 --> 58:06.280]  I don't want to say publicly right now but you can come and talk to me privately.
[58:06.980 --> 58:07.320]  no problem.
[58:07.700 --> 58:09.480]  We have time for just one more question.
[58:09.640 --> 58:14.060]  I also wanted to welcome Cheshire Catalyst here who has been closely working on registration.
[58:17.080 --> 58:17.660]  Thank you.
[58:19.080 --> 58:21.340]  And Cheshire, you've been at every one of our conferences, correct?
[58:22.080 --> 58:24.480]  Yes, this is my fifth HOPE conference.
[58:24.720 --> 58:29.920]  I've been here a lot and two years ago when I was here I actually got something accomplished by being here.
[58:31.280 --> 58:34.380]  Verizon Telephone was not able to be found under directory assistance.
[58:34.840 --> 58:45.320]  And two weeks after I got back to work, about the time it takes for a local listen to migrate up to the national directory where I and my best friends and my direct resistance call center lived, Verizon worked.
[58:45.440 --> 58:46.580]  We could find their number.
[58:47.220 --> 58:54.080]  So I figured why should I be the only one to have the access to the internet like this through these streaming servers and what have you?
[58:54.580 --> 58:56.020]  Sunday morning at 10 a.m.
[58:56.020 --> 58:57.700]  is Cheshire's Rants.
[58:58.260 --> 59:16.220]  You will get 45 seconds to rant on anything you want which will then be on the HOPE Convention website and you'll be able to give me a hyperlink for us to then link from that website to where the subject of your rant is but you'll only have 45 seconds to rant on mic.
[59:16.560 --> 59:19.540]  That's Sunday afternoon I mean Sunday morning 10 a.m.
[59:19.680 --> 59:20.540]  right here area A.
[59:20.700 --> 59:22.380]  Very quick question and we're out of here.
[59:22.940 --> 59:23.580]  Hopefully we have time.
[59:23.700 --> 59:26.660]  It's kind of a complex question but make it really simple.
[59:27.120 --> 59:35.360]  What is the ethical and legal defense for being able to distribute the code for copying DVD copyrighted content?
[59:35.960 --> 59:48.900]  Oh boy You ask that with 10 seconds left in the cell Essentially it's the same as the ability to use your VCR If you can use your VCR legally you should be able to copy your DVDs Is that our theme right here?
[59:49.000 --> 01:00:01.280]  I believe it is That means it's time for us to leave you tonight in this special We have theme music back at the studio There it is A big thank you to the
[01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:19.360]  people back at the station WBAI and we'll be back with another edition of Off the Hook next Wednesday night at 7 Come to the conference here at the Hotel Pennsylvania www.hope.net Good night
[01:01:40.940 --> 01:01:55.640]  Hello, I'm David Rothenberg One of the real battles in the fight against crime and arena rarely discussed is what happens to a man or woman when they are released from jail or prison Where will they live, earn a living, function in society after being institutionalized?
[01:01:55.780 --> 01:02:15.600]  We'll be exploring that in a special edition of Wake Up Call Tuesday, July 13th I'll be joined by Stanley Richards who has experienced all of those transitional hazards and together we'll talk with men and women who are overcoming the blockade that faces them when they return to society Join us on Tuesday morning July 13th from 6 to 9 a.m.
[01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:24.920]  for a special Wake Up Call program Coming Home It's the real battle against crime and creating hope for a forgotten and ignored population Oh, no!