[00:02.350 --> 00:13.530]  Free Speech Radio News is produced at Pacifica Stations, WBAI in New York, KPFA in Berkeley, KPFK in L.A., and Community Radio Station WMNF in Tampa, Florida.
[00:14.030 --> 00:17.170]  The newscast is produced by Monica Lopez and Simba Russo.
[00:17.530 --> 00:20.170]  Headlines editors are Randy Zimmerman and Nell Abram.
[00:20.510 --> 00:22.410]  DC editor is Mitch Jezerich.
[00:22.610 --> 00:28.130]  Our technical production team is Jade Padgett-Seekins, Pauline Bartolone, Mick Millen, and Lindsay Benedict.
[00:28.530 --> 00:30.650]  We have technical assistance from Eric Klein.
[00:30.870 --> 00:32.070]  I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:34.630 --> 00:37.550]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York.
[00:37.770 --> 00:39.090]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:39.790 --> 00:42.670]  Time for a special recovery edition of Off the Hook.
[00:44.150 --> 00:48.650]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:49.590 --> 00:54.190]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[00:54.750 --> 00:59.490]  We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:58.690 --> 02:02.670]  And getting to everybody, the program is off the hook, and here we are.
[02:02.750 --> 02:03.190]  We made it.
[02:03.290 --> 02:07.010]  It's a couple of days after the Fifth Hope Conference.
[02:07.890 --> 02:09.850]  And boy, I don't know.
[02:09.910 --> 02:11.390]  How do you wrap something like that up?
[02:12.330 --> 02:13.490]  Studio full of people again.
[02:13.770 --> 02:14.610]  Probably more on the way.
[02:14.950 --> 02:15.310]  Bernie S.
[02:15.350 --> 02:15.830]  on the phone.
[02:16.830 --> 02:18.550]  Bernie, okay, let's start with you.
[02:19.710 --> 02:21.350]  How do you put it into words?
[02:23.950 --> 02:25.330]  It's beyond words, Emmanuel.
[02:25.470 --> 02:27.370]  I had to sleep 13 hours last night, by the way.
[02:27.450 --> 02:31.090]  I did the catch-up, because there was no time to sleep for this conference.
[02:31.230 --> 02:32.510]  It was just so amazing.
[02:34.310 --> 02:35.210]  It's beyond words.
[02:35.410 --> 02:40.430]  There were thousands of guests, about 100 different panel discussions.
[02:40.590 --> 02:44.550]  I was just at my lawyer's office showing him the list of all the panel discussions we had.
[02:44.650 --> 02:46.370]  He said, damn, I wish I knew about this.
[02:46.370 --> 02:46.970]  I should have gone.
[02:47.770 --> 02:48.530]  Yeah, you know...
[02:48.530 --> 02:49.990]  He's not a technical person at all.
[02:50.210 --> 02:52.550]  So many people came that were not technical people.
[02:52.590 --> 02:58.950]  I had a great time just going from panel to panel and seeing all the different things that were happening, the movies downstairs.
[02:59.590 --> 03:00.870]  I even got to ride a Segway.
[03:01.010 --> 03:01.570]  Boy, that was fun.
[03:02.050 --> 03:03.110]  Mike, you didn't ride a Segway, did you?
[03:03.110 --> 03:03.750]  You hate Segways.
[03:03.910 --> 03:05.090]  No, I don't like Segways.
[03:05.190 --> 03:06.330]  But you've never been on one.
[03:06.490 --> 03:07.630]  Well, I'll have to try it next time.
[03:07.690 --> 03:11.190]  I've got to say, after riding one, I don't think I want to ride one again, because they were kind of...
[03:11.610 --> 03:12.690]  It was kind of confusing.
[03:13.570 --> 03:14.890]  I got to ride the Segway.
[03:15.010 --> 03:15.970]  I enjoyed it thoroughly.
[03:16.090 --> 03:16.250]  Really?
[03:16.450 --> 03:18.910]  Yeah, but I'm a motorcycle kind of guy, so it was two wheels.
[03:19.090 --> 03:23.310]  But when you stepped off the thing, didn't everything seem to be sort of moving still?
[03:24.170 --> 03:26.810]  I was staggering around, like a drunken sailor.
[03:26.810 --> 03:29.270]  I'm all for two wheels, just not the motorized part.
[03:30.070 --> 03:31.390]  Redhike, you're bobbing your head up and down.
[03:31.470 --> 03:32.150]  Do you have something to say?
[03:33.790 --> 03:34.110]  No.
[03:34.290 --> 03:42.710]  Well, I got to ride it, too, and I didn't feel like the world was moving, but I felt unstable when I was on it, just because it's weird.
[03:43.570 --> 03:45.090]  You felt unstable when you were on it?
[03:45.090 --> 03:46.330]  You're not balancing yourself.
[03:46.410 --> 03:47.650]  It's balancing you.
[03:47.930 --> 03:49.710]  Yeah, like I felt like it was moving back and forth.
[03:50.290 --> 03:52.850]  I guess, but you know, the Earth is moving back and forth all the time.
[03:53.150 --> 03:53.930]  Do you ever think about that?
[03:54.410 --> 03:54.550]  No.
[03:54.550 --> 03:55.630]  All right, well...
[03:55.630 --> 03:56.930]  It's moving forth, not back.
[03:57.150 --> 03:58.130]  Well, it's moving all over the place.
[03:58.170 --> 03:58.750]  But never mind that.
[03:58.870 --> 04:00.310]  We're getting into a tangent there.
[04:01.090 --> 04:06.450]  Well, Bernie, what were some of the highlights for you besides segues and speakers and things?
[04:06.510 --> 04:07.550]  Any other anecdotes?
[04:07.990 --> 04:12.630]  Well, someone being interested in the law, I was really interested in the different legal panels.
[04:12.630 --> 04:31.890]  We had several lawyers, PhDs, and other people who have been on both sides of the law who were talking about all these technologies that affect all of our lives and how different regulations and laws affect their use and affect people who use these technologies that we all really have to use these days.
[04:32.810 --> 04:41.590]  So, it's really an eye-opener to see how the law really affects all of us and how we're sort of vulnerable to a lot of things we might not be aware of.
[04:42.230 --> 04:43.890]  I didn't get to see a whole lot of panels.
[04:44.170 --> 04:46.490]  I wasn't even all the way there for the ones I was on.
[04:48.190 --> 04:52.890]  But it's something I want to catch up on in the next few weeks, months, however long it takes.
[04:52.890 --> 05:01.470]  I think we're going to have, thanks to the genius of Ethan, who's one of our video people, we'll be able to get that up faster, the audio up faster.
[05:02.650 --> 05:05.610]  Redhack, maybe you could enlighten us on that a little bit because you're running the movie room.
[05:05.830 --> 05:14.350]  Yeah, we were able to simulcast the keynotes and even the social engineering panel downstairs while they were happening.
[05:14.350 --> 05:25.810]  And what Ethan did was basically he had machines upstairs that were receiving input from the cameras, and they were making them into MPEGs.
[05:27.050 --> 05:37.570]  And then, remotely, he was able to go into them and have them netcat, basically just, he put the file accessible on a port, and then the other side, it was, as though it was just catting as if it was...
[05:37.570 --> 05:38.490]  Netcat or netcast?
[05:38.730 --> 05:39.130]  Netcat.
[05:39.210 --> 05:39.610]  Netcat, okay.
[05:39.630 --> 05:43.430]  It comes from the cat tool under Unix, which is concatenate.
[05:43.430 --> 05:55.250]  But, basically, he was able to, as if it was a local file, read this and then show it wherever he wanted, wherever he had a client computer set up to do this.
[05:55.450 --> 05:55.690]  Wow.
[05:55.850 --> 06:00.330]  Sounds like we had people writing programs on stage that we needed to randomize at the end.
[06:00.470 --> 06:07.250]  Bernie, that was kind of your domain there where we were trying to give away prizes during the closing ceremonies, and we couldn't figure out a way to randomize the numbers.
[06:07.250 --> 06:13.970]  So, someone came up and actually, in, what is it, DOS shell or something, wrote this script that would do it for us?
[06:15.150 --> 06:18.530]  And it generated random numbers on the fly for us, and it came in very handy.
[06:18.850 --> 06:34.890]  I've got to point out that the work that RedHack was just referring to allowed hundreds more attendees to see live our keynote speakers and the social engineering panel in our terrific movie room, which was large in and of itself, and held an overflowing audience.
[06:35.250 --> 06:40.850]  I was down there watching Wozniak speak in the movie room, and it was packed.
[06:41.010 --> 06:42.590]  It went all the way well past the curtains.
[06:42.790 --> 06:44.370]  People were gazing in from the street.
[06:44.530 --> 06:50.950]  It helped a lot, because actually, I spoke to a friend afterwards who told me he wasn't able to see a Nick speech because it was so packed.
[06:51.610 --> 06:57.830]  So, we didn't have it set up at that point, but by the next day's keynote, we did, and we were able to accommodate the extra people.
[06:57.830 --> 07:01.350]  I was in back of the stage for the Mitnick speech.
[07:01.510 --> 07:02.450]  That was the first keynote.
[07:02.590 --> 07:02.970]  We had three.
[07:03.130 --> 07:04.290]  We had Kevin Mitnick on Friday.
[07:04.450 --> 07:07.430]  We had Steve Wozniak on Saturday, Jello Biafra on Sunday.
[07:07.650 --> 07:11.490]  But just standing up there and looking back, it just kept going.
[07:13.670 --> 07:14.930]  And it was amazing.
[07:15.070 --> 07:17.630]  Went through three rooms all the way to the back, and then downstairs, too.
[07:18.470 --> 07:18.890]  Unbelievable.
[07:18.890 --> 07:18.990]  Unbelievable.
[07:19.910 --> 07:24.050]  So, yeah, we had great turnout as far as the different talks.
[07:24.150 --> 07:25.030]  I don't think people were bored.
[07:25.210 --> 07:27.870]  We ran talks until midnight, which we've never done before.
[07:28.310 --> 07:31.470]  And even at that time, we had a lot of people.
[07:31.850 --> 07:35.450]  Shorty's here, and you ran the NOC, the Network Operations Center.
[07:35.950 --> 07:41.890]  And you also had a panel, I think at 11 o'clock at night or 10 o'clock at night or something, about hacker spaces.
[07:42.190 --> 07:43.070]  Yeah, that was on Friday.
[07:43.270 --> 07:44.410]  That was pretty well attended, wasn't it?
[07:44.590 --> 07:45.130]  Yeah, pretty good.
[07:45.130 --> 07:45.470]  Yeah.
[07:45.790 --> 07:49.930]  So, tell us something about, first of all, the NOC, and then something about hacker spaces, too.
[07:50.910 --> 07:54.370]  Well, I was in charge of staffing for the NOC this year.
[07:54.690 --> 07:59.870]  And I guess it's been a problem in the past that there haven't been enough people there to help run things.
[08:00.450 --> 08:05.370]  And Arp had to take care of everything in years past, and he never got any sleep.
[08:05.370 --> 08:06.810]  And there were problems because of that.
[08:07.310 --> 08:12.790]  So, at one of the organizational meetings, somebody said, Hey, maybe we should try to get some volunteers.
[08:13.230 --> 08:15.290]  I said, Hey, I can get you a staff of 30 people.
[08:15.510 --> 08:18.010]  And as soon as I said it, I knew I'm going to regret this.
[08:18.690 --> 08:21.230]  And they said, Yeah, if you can do that, do it.
[08:21.510 --> 08:26.030]  And I went out and I looked for people, and we got a fairly good staff together.
[08:26.150 --> 08:27.850]  We had a lot of people there at any given time.
[08:28.570 --> 08:44.270]  And I think things turned out fairly well because we had a lot of people who not only were there just to be in the NOC and to look cool doing it, but we had a lot of people that really knew what they were doing and put in a lot of technical know-how and independent projects into making the network better.
[08:45.010 --> 08:46.650]  Yeah, and it stayed up.
[08:46.730 --> 08:50.690]  I mean, there were times where it went up and down, but there was always somebody on it, working on it.
[08:50.770 --> 08:54.730]  It was never just sitting there without being repaired or modified in some way.
[08:54.890 --> 08:55.710]  Now, what did we have?
[08:55.710 --> 08:57.090]  We had a wired network.
[08:57.090 --> 08:58.170]  We had public computing.
[08:58.270 --> 08:58.790]  We had wireless.
[08:59.210 --> 08:59.470]  Yeah.
[09:00.230 --> 09:06.910]  The wireless took a large amount of beating just because there were lots of kids there trying to see what they could do.
[09:07.650 --> 09:13.110]  Dragorn was in charge of it, and he did a really good job trying to keep everything up and keep everything stable.
[09:13.690 --> 09:19.310]  He made these custom APs that would counterattack anybody trying to attack the wireless.
[09:19.570 --> 09:25.790]  But at one point, because so many people were attacking it, everything got too saturated and he had to take them down.
[09:25.790 --> 09:30.650]  But compared to in the past, the wireless did really, really well.
[09:31.490 --> 09:34.090]  The wired also did very well.
[09:34.290 --> 09:37.890]  Not as many people used it as the wireless, but it held up.
[09:38.510 --> 09:41.330]  Everything else was fine except for when we had issues with Verizon.
[09:41.810 --> 09:42.950]  Yeah, now tell us something about that.
[09:43.070 --> 09:43.770]  Verizon just what?
[09:44.370 --> 09:45.710]  They installed the T1s.
[09:45.770 --> 09:46.450]  We had two T1s.
[09:46.450 --> 09:47.430]  Thanks to Knack.net.
[09:47.450 --> 09:48.250]  They're always very generous.
[09:48.390 --> 09:49.390]  They give us the bandwidth.
[09:49.690 --> 09:54.450]  But Verizon manages to somehow step in at the last minute and foul it all up.
[09:54.450 --> 10:01.170]  When we got in on Thursday, there were reports that one T1 was not installed and the other T1 was broken.
[10:01.630 --> 10:09.990]  So we were on the phone with various Verizon techs trying to pull in all the favors we could get, trying to get this taken care of sooner.
[10:10.330 --> 10:12.410]  It finally got up sometime on Friday.
[10:12.410 --> 10:18.630]  There were a few ups and downs as things got resolved and a random staff pulled things out of the wall.
[10:18.830 --> 10:21.530]  I think it was a hotel staff member that pulled something out of the wall.
[10:21.790 --> 10:22.790]  Just for the fun of it.
[10:23.270 --> 10:25.850]  Trying to fix it or pointing out where it was.
[10:26.070 --> 10:26.730]  I don't know.
[10:27.050 --> 10:30.890]  But people were running into there and trying to fix things on their own, which caused more problems.
[10:31.110 --> 10:33.830]  But eventually we got it up and it was stable.
[10:34.170 --> 10:38.470]  And the T1s did a very good job for the rest of the conference once they were up and running.
[10:38.590 --> 10:38.990]  Well, that's good.
[10:39.030 --> 10:40.910]  Now tell us something about your talk, about hacker spaces.
[10:41.090 --> 10:45.470]  We had people from all over the world, in fact, talking about various hacker communes.
[10:45.510 --> 10:46.310]  Is that what you want to call it?
[10:47.710 --> 10:50.990]  Other than it turning into a CDC publicity stunt, it went pretty well.
[10:51.170 --> 10:56.870]  You didn't throw White Castle burgers into the crowd, so I think it couldn't have devolved too much from there.
[10:56.950 --> 10:57.110]  No.
[10:57.190 --> 11:02.230]  We had a number of representatives from various places across the country and even elsewhere in the world.
[11:02.230 --> 11:06.070]  I talked on Hacker Halfway House in Brooklyn here.
[11:07.550 --> 11:15.350]  I had a friend come in from the Netherlands, talked about a squatted internet cafe they had started up there.
[11:16.490 --> 11:24.630]  Other people talked about the old loft, New Hack City, Walnut Factory, Hasty Pastry, other places around the country.
[11:25.690 --> 11:38.070]  So, all in all, it was pretty nice to see a perspective, not only of the current projects out there, but little bits of information on how to start up new places and even some historical information like the original loft and how it worked.
[11:38.210 --> 11:42.650]  It's good to have the history there, you know, to have the fact that people are doing this all around the world.
[11:42.930 --> 11:45.650]  And hopefully you guys inspired some more people to...
[11:45.650 --> 11:54.090]  I've already been a part of a few discussions about things to look out for, tips, ways of finding people, things to do when starting up.
[11:54.090 --> 11:59.270]  So, it definitely inspired some people, and other people definitely are out there interested in doing it.
[11:59.330 --> 12:02.350]  A few people I know of out in Seattle are trying it basically right now.
[12:02.710 --> 12:02.930]  Great.
[12:03.450 --> 12:04.810]  Jeff, what highlights for you?
[12:05.610 --> 12:07.810]  Well, there's so many different areas.
[12:07.810 --> 12:18.150]  When you look at the fact that you could see Stephen Wozniak and Kevin Mitnick and Cap'n Crunch sitting at the same table signing things for people as long as they kept coming.
[12:18.410 --> 12:21.430]  I think the last time I saw those three together, it was on a cable show.
[12:21.730 --> 12:23.770]  So, that was almost surreal.
[12:23.770 --> 12:25.510]  I mean, here it was live, right in front of me.
[12:26.110 --> 12:27.930]  And they all enjoy doing it, too.
[12:28.010 --> 12:28.850]  Oh, they...
[12:28.850 --> 12:34.610]  You can tell that they genuinely enjoyed meeting the people that they had so much in common with.
[12:34.750 --> 12:35.230]  Absolutely.
[12:35.810 --> 12:39.630]  The other aspect for me that's kind of exciting is the social aspect.
[12:39.710 --> 12:43.490]  Because I didn't get out to Berlin this year.
[12:43.590 --> 12:46.670]  I didn't get out to the Hamvention.
[12:47.290 --> 12:50.190]  So, Dan Morgan was able to come here this time.
[12:50.350 --> 12:54.050]  And Sasha and Hanukkah, you know, they came over.
[12:54.390 --> 12:58.650]  So, it was kind of good that I got to catch up with a lot of friends and people that I haven't seen in a while.
[12:59.010 --> 13:00.870]  It was great that Dan Morgan could make it.
[13:01.170 --> 13:06.630]  He's been on the radio show a number of times talking about his woes with satellite watch news and DirecTV and all that.
[13:06.630 --> 13:11.850]  And we were able to put him on a panel with other people who had been through similar things and legal people as well.
[13:11.930 --> 13:14.610]  And it was just... it was good to know that he was mixing with this crowd.
[13:14.710 --> 13:18.890]  And they were hearing his story and listening and being a sympathetic ear.
[13:19.650 --> 13:28.530]  And I think that's one of the best things that come out of organizing a conference like this is that you get to bring communities together and see people interact that might not ever have met otherwise.
[13:29.230 --> 13:31.770]  Dan was a little concerned about coming to this conference.
[13:31.930 --> 13:33.430]  He was a little apprehensive.
[13:33.570 --> 13:34.790]  He didn't know what it was going to be all about.
[13:34.790 --> 13:37.950]  He knew that there'd be people receptive to his story.
[13:38.290 --> 13:42.830]  But the last day we had breakfast, Sunday morning... or Monday morning, actually.
[13:43.110 --> 13:45.470]  And he was just blown away.
[13:45.630 --> 13:51.670]  He said, Bernie, I never imagined there'd be so many kindred spirits at something like this.
[13:51.690 --> 13:53.170]  So he got it.
[13:53.510 --> 14:00.550]  And everybody who came to this, I think, walked away thinking they have much more in common with everyone else than they imagined.
[14:00.550 --> 14:05.550]  And also, not just the attendees, not just the speakers, but people just wandering by.
[14:05.710 --> 14:16.610]  I had so many conversations with people that weren't part of the conference, including members of the hotel, staff of the hotel, who really seemed to dig what we were doing and respect our viewpoints and things like that.
[14:16.610 --> 14:18.470]  But there was a guy outside, the hot dog vendor.
[14:18.810 --> 14:20.510]  You know, he was into it.
[14:20.570 --> 14:22.330]  He remembered us from two years ago.
[14:22.570 --> 14:23.170]  Can you imagine that?
[14:23.250 --> 14:30.770]  And remembering specific individual people from two years ago when you have a hot dog stand on the corner of 7th Avenue and right across the street from Penn Station.
[14:31.350 --> 14:32.450]  That says something.
[14:32.510 --> 14:33.970]  And he guarded our van for us.
[14:33.970 --> 14:37.590]  He was watching the van without us ever asking him, just to make sure nobody messed with it.
[14:37.870 --> 14:41.150]  You do have to admit, though, too, that some of us tend to stand out.
[14:41.570 --> 14:42.790]  Some of us do stand out.
[14:42.790 --> 14:44.430]  So we're easy to remember, you know.
[14:44.510 --> 14:44.970]  That's true.
[14:45.270 --> 14:46.650]  And I will remember him in two years.
[14:46.790 --> 14:49.090]  So I guess, in a sense, that does work both ways.
[14:50.210 --> 14:56.590]  But, you know, there were just so many other people that you talked to, that you saw, that seemed to appreciate it.
[14:56.610 --> 14:58.290]  They seemed to be surprised, Mac, this could happen.
[14:58.470 --> 15:03.330]  Now, Jeff, you've been to the Chaos Congress in the past.
[15:03.330 --> 15:04.130]  And the camp.
[15:04.310 --> 15:04.850]  The camp.
[15:04.990 --> 15:05.730]  Hal 2001.
[15:06.090 --> 15:07.370]  How do you compare this?
[15:09.770 --> 15:13.530]  It's two different flavors, but there's so much that is still similar.
[15:13.790 --> 15:15.590]  I mean, you still have the community.
[15:15.950 --> 15:20.610]  You have the way everything works when people come together.
[15:20.810 --> 15:23.670]  And that's what I've seen in both instances.
[15:23.950 --> 15:32.510]  Well, this time in particular, and this is our fifth conference, I think we approached the Dutch way of doing things a lot closer than we ever have before.
[15:32.510 --> 15:40.450]  And what I mean by that is the organizational structure, where we actually had somebody on top of every potential problem at every particular moment.
[15:40.630 --> 15:43.450]  If something happened, someone immediately dealt with it.
[15:43.590 --> 15:52.050]  And especially at the end, when last time we got stuck with, you know, a couple of grand in charges from the AV company because things weren't broken down.
[15:52.130 --> 15:53.430]  A lot of people just, you know, left.
[15:53.590 --> 15:58.430]  And we asked people, please stay around and help us break down so that we can all get out of here at a good time.
[15:58.430 --> 16:07.550]  And it was just unbelievable seeing the number of people getting together, gathering all the chairs and the AV equipment, and hobbits stood up there on stage and showed people how to wrap a wire properly.
[16:08.090 --> 16:10.730]  And we had the whole thing done within the hour.
[16:11.190 --> 16:12.290]  It was unbelievable.
[16:12.490 --> 16:13.450]  We were all stunned by that.
[16:13.590 --> 16:16.970]  So I think that kind of spirit is what typified what happened over the weekend.
[16:17.130 --> 16:23.710]  I think, too, when you still have the same people like Rhodey doing security, and he's got his crew.
[16:23.970 --> 16:25.990]  And so things are just...
[16:25.990 --> 16:28.710]  It's here we are again, you know, doing it.
[16:28.810 --> 16:29.750]  So it works.
[16:30.170 --> 16:30.810]  Yeah, absolutely.
[16:31.190 --> 16:34.590]  Now, I mentioned the Dutch conferences, and we have a couple of Dutch people here.
[16:34.690 --> 16:41.310]  So I guess I should give you the opportunity to correct me if maybe we're not worthy enough of being in that league.
[16:41.370 --> 16:42.350]  I wouldn't say so.
[16:42.510 --> 16:46.770]  I think organization-wise, most stuff went pretty well.
[16:46.770 --> 16:54.770]  So it's some things, but it's always, at the end of a conference, it's like, okay, this should have done, dealt with better, this could have been dealt better with.
[16:54.890 --> 16:58.370]  But I think that's, yeah, something to take to the next conference.
[16:58.450 --> 17:02.230]  And I think, overall, if we did really good, maybe there's some doubts we have.
[17:02.330 --> 17:04.890]  But most of the people I spoke to really enjoyed it.
[17:04.970 --> 17:08.970]  And that's, I think, the benchmark you need to use.
[17:08.970 --> 17:10.630]  Not like, okay, what did I think of it?
[17:10.710 --> 17:12.070]  But, like, new people coming in.
[17:12.270 --> 17:13.510]  Did I have a good time?
[17:13.750 --> 17:13.850]  Right.
[17:14.130 --> 17:16.390]  Did they notice some stuff didn't work out well?
[17:17.770 --> 17:19.070]  And that's the thing, too.
[17:19.150 --> 17:21.810]  The attendees, they're the ones that matter in the end, of course.
[17:22.770 --> 17:25.210]  You know, we think about what it is we want to do.
[17:25.290 --> 17:27.270]  And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
[17:27.390 --> 17:31.030]  Sometimes some things don't quite pan out the way we expected them to.
[17:31.370 --> 17:36.230]  But in the end, it's those people who came here, how did they, what did they see?
[17:36.310 --> 17:37.410]  What options did they have?
[17:37.490 --> 17:38.570]  Could they go to many different talks?
[17:38.690 --> 17:39.710]  Could they see interesting things?
[17:40.010 --> 17:49.170]  And just talking to people who come here from different parts of the country and realizing how much this means to them, that, to me, is the most inspiring thing of all.
[17:49.270 --> 17:53.410]  Just people who came here from, you know, places like Texas, Ohio, wherever.
[17:55.110 --> 17:59.910]  And being in New York City, for one thing, is kind of intimidating and new to a lot of people.
[18:00.650 --> 18:13.930]  And to be thrilled by that, to see what a cool place New York City can be to somebody who maybe never has been here before, and then to see how we can put a conference like this together and just make it happen over the weekend and work together, resolve any problems,
[18:14.050 --> 18:15.610]  keep things flowing.
[18:15.670 --> 18:22.970]  I think one of the things which really amazed me on Thursday is the amount of people helping and then you volunteering and you talk to them.
[18:23.070 --> 18:25.270]  It's like, okay, did you go to the last conference?
[18:25.450 --> 18:27.450]  And then, no, no, no, it didn't go to the last conference.
[18:27.630 --> 18:29.210]  It's kind of like, okay, why are you...
[18:29.210 --> 18:35.730]  It just kind of amazed me that people are volunteering for a conference to help work on a conference they haven't been to yet.
[18:36.270 --> 18:40.230]  Like, they don't really know what to expect, but they're still volunteering on it already.
[18:40.390 --> 18:42.930]  And that's... I think that atmosphere was really good.
[18:43.070 --> 18:45.510]  In the 2600 community, we've seen this many times.
[18:45.670 --> 18:48.390]  Like, we were able to release the DVD finally.
[18:48.390 --> 18:53.950]  I have a copy of the Freedom Downtime DVD in my hand, and that's what it sounds like when you drop it on the table.
[18:54.910 --> 19:00.310]  And we had people who volunteered time to translate this into 20 different languages all over the world.
[19:00.450 --> 19:00.650]  Yeah, that's true.
[19:00.650 --> 19:04.310]  So people do this kind of thing, and it's really cool to see them come together.
[19:04.890 --> 19:11.150]  That kind of spirit, the spirit here at BAI, where people donate and join the station and, you know, help decide things.
[19:12.170 --> 19:14.450]  It's just very important, very significant.
[19:15.150 --> 19:16.030]  Yeah, Hanukkah, your feelings?
[19:16.330 --> 19:21.570]  I think if you participate in something, it's also a lot more fun than when you're just consuming it.
[19:21.850 --> 19:22.370]  That's right.
[19:22.910 --> 19:23.190]  It definitely is.
[19:23.190 --> 19:26.830]  When you're just being an audience, it's, well, it's interesting.
[19:26.830 --> 19:29.270]  But if you're really a part of it, it just feels better.
[19:30.050 --> 19:31.290]  Yeah, because we did this.
[19:31.370 --> 19:32.090]  We all did this.
[19:32.650 --> 19:34.410]  There were a lot of volunteers, too.
[19:34.650 --> 19:35.170]  There were a lot.
[19:35.290 --> 19:37.230]  I think there were well over 100 volunteers, correct?
[19:37.750 --> 19:39.130]  We had almost 40 people.
[19:39.510 --> 19:41.370]  We had almost 40 people in the knock alone.
[19:41.550 --> 19:41.930]  Oh, really?
[19:42.450 --> 19:43.370]  Not at one time.
[19:43.850 --> 19:44.010]  No.
[19:44.630 --> 19:45.790]  I always saw you guys.
[19:45.910 --> 19:47.110]  You guys were always busy doing something.
[19:47.350 --> 19:49.190]  So 40 in the knock alone.
[19:49.330 --> 19:50.630]  Okay, well, Jeff.
[19:51.030 --> 19:56.030]  That's pretty much how I got my start with you guys, was volunteering at H2K.
[19:56.030 --> 20:03.130]  Hey, that's how I came into this community and got to meet you and the rest of these people.
[20:03.270 --> 20:03.690]  Bernie asked.
[20:04.110 --> 20:06.210]  Printing holographic ID badges all night long.
[20:06.410 --> 20:06.850]  Absolutely.
[20:07.270 --> 20:08.530]  Literally all night long.
[20:08.830 --> 20:11.330]  As I look around the room, I realize that that's how so many people...
[20:11.330 --> 20:13.970]  Red Hacked, you volunteered last conference at Security.
[20:14.650 --> 20:19.830]  And, Mike, you were there when we were protesting against the MPAA outside theaters.
[20:20.850 --> 20:22.830]  It's just everybody comes into this in a different way.
[20:23.510 --> 20:26.490]  Porkchop, of course, who's not here, was part of Beyond Hope.
[20:27.330 --> 20:28.850]  And, yeah, it's really cool.
[20:28.930 --> 20:31.770]  Because every conference, you meet more people and they become part of the community.
[20:31.770 --> 20:35.810]  And then, you know, you work with them and make all kinds of other fun things happen as well.
[20:36.670 --> 20:38.490]  There is one other thing I wanted to mention.
[20:38.490 --> 20:44.810]  The fact that we got to do the radio show Friday night for two hours in front of a live audience like that...
[20:44.810 --> 20:45.370]  That was cool.
[20:45.570 --> 20:46.630]  That was very cool.
[20:46.990 --> 20:47.290]  It was fun.
[20:47.710 --> 20:47.870]  Yeah.
[20:48.570 --> 20:49.190]  There were...
[20:49.190 --> 20:57.310]  I should point this out because I think what we have online right now is we have the feed as we heard it there in the studio.
[20:57.770 --> 20:58.730]  Is that not correct, Mike?
[20:59.050 --> 21:01.010]  No, it seems to be what went over the air.
[21:01.150 --> 21:01.530]  Oh, really?
[21:01.630 --> 21:01.810]  Okay.
[21:02.070 --> 21:03.750]  I listened to the first hour of it.
[21:03.890 --> 21:07.670]  And people are just going to tell us this, so we might as well get it out in the open.
[21:07.670 --> 21:16.310]  There were, I think, two points during the broadcast where our hardware device to connect the hotel to the studio dropped out.
[21:16.430 --> 21:18.970]  And you can hear, like, modem noises if you listen to it.
[21:19.050 --> 21:19.510]  Oh, really?
[21:19.650 --> 21:22.970]  So anyone who can tell us what was going on...
[21:22.970 --> 21:23.770]  Well, I remember.
[21:23.850 --> 21:28.390]  And if you watch the video, when that comes out, you'll see that I'm just sitting there talking about something.
[21:28.750 --> 21:33.390]  And Mike and Porkchop are running around with their hands in the air trying to figure out what's going on.
[21:33.790 --> 21:35.930]  And apparently we had been dumped at that point.
[21:35.930 --> 21:38.410]  Both times, I believe, we were criticizing Verizon, right?
[21:38.710 --> 21:38.910]  Yeah.
[21:39.690 --> 21:50.190]  We should point out that we recovered quickly both times thanks to Guy Montag who was sitting off to the side listening to our off-air signal there at the hotel ballroom.
[21:50.410 --> 21:53.610]  And he would wave his hands widely every time the modem dropped out.
[21:53.710 --> 21:57.890]  And then Mike and Porkchop would jump up and fix it quickly, and we're back on the air.
[21:58.070 --> 21:59.330]  Except for that one time he was stretching.
[21:59.590 --> 22:00.750]  But it was a good test.
[22:00.750 --> 22:07.650]  We should also thank Ken Gale and Tony who were here in the studio and were very helpful in resolving all that.
[22:07.830 --> 22:13.170]  And the station in general just for giving us that two-hour block because it was a lot of fun.
[22:13.230 --> 22:18.430]  It was a lot of fun for all the people that traveled here from all around the world just to see a show live like that.
[22:18.670 --> 22:20.070]  And I think it sounded pretty good.
[22:20.070 --> 22:26.670]  But you'll be able to hear the part, I guess, that was knocked off when we have the audio from the conference up as well.
[22:27.150 --> 22:28.930]  It was so strange, actually.
[22:29.110 --> 22:31.850]  It was very different because here we're in this closed studio and it's just all of us.
[22:31.930 --> 22:34.250]  But when we were out in front of the audience, it felt more like a panel.
[22:34.370 --> 22:37.430]  It didn't really feel like, you know, it wasn't the same environment.
[22:37.550 --> 22:38.490]  It wasn't the radio environment.
[22:38.690 --> 22:39.070]  It was...
[22:39.070 --> 22:45.070]  Yeah, well, having several hundred people, if not more, reacting to the things you're saying is kind of...
[22:45.070 --> 22:47.030]  It does change the dynamic, that's for sure.
[22:47.630 --> 22:48.810]  Jim, how do you feel about everything?
[22:48.810 --> 22:53.890]  I was very impressed having been at all five HOPE conferences.
[22:54.810 --> 22:56.870]  Just a couple words on the radio panel.
[22:57.390 --> 22:58.870]  Yeah, it is very different.
[22:59.070 --> 23:10.850]  When we're in the studio, even though sometimes there's an awful lot of us, it sometimes feels like many other hackers must feel that we're under siege, that we're lonely voices in the wilderness.
[23:11.190 --> 23:24.670]  And to see, you know, 700 to 1,000 people listening and generally applauding at the points where we think we're making a good point sort of reinforces the ideas that we have.
[23:24.810 --> 23:26.390]  And it was great to hear that.
[23:26.490 --> 23:30.690]  It was great to know that there are other kindred souls out there besides ourselves.
[23:31.570 --> 23:34.210]  Yeah, yeah, we definitely felt that magic working there.
[23:35.090 --> 23:36.990]  And hopefully we can do that again, too.
[23:37.050 --> 23:38.150]  Now, Mike, you worked the info desk.
[23:38.290 --> 23:39.250]  How did that go this year?
[23:39.490 --> 23:52.170]  You know, it worked so well that even though I wasn't able to spend a lot of time there, there were a few volunteers who really missed much of the conference just to volunteer and provide information to their fellow attendees.
[23:52.370 --> 23:54.030]  And I want to thank them for that.
[23:55.650 --> 23:57.850]  And it was, you know, it went well.
[23:58.930 --> 24:02.650]  Some of these people are also, I think, going to continue to be involved.
[24:02.890 --> 24:04.330]  So we may see them again soon.
[24:04.510 --> 24:04.990]  Great, great.
[24:05.070 --> 24:09.550]  And, of course, there are people in registration, too, that spent an awful lot of time there welcoming people to the conference.
[24:09.710 --> 24:11.150]  First friendly face they saw.
[24:11.450 --> 24:13.370]  And Junce, in particular, was one of those people.
[24:13.370 --> 24:22.930]  And Carrie, and that's a very important job, you know, getting people into the conference and explaining things to them, giving them the propaganda they needed to survive.
[24:23.330 --> 24:30.230]  There were only five of us in the movie room, so keeping that working, you know, around the clock was an interesting experience.
[24:30.390 --> 24:33.150]  A team here in the studio, he helped me with that.
[24:34.010 --> 24:36.870]  And, I mean, it worked out really well, and people really liked it.
[24:36.930 --> 24:39.190]  I mean, we got a round of applause at the end, so...
[24:39.190 --> 24:40.510]  It was a great movie room.
[24:41.050 --> 24:43.110]  I think we should do this conference again.
[24:43.110 --> 24:44.690]  We should definitely have another big movie room.
[24:45.090 --> 24:54.450]  It was really cool, because you walk into the conference, and the first thing you see is a big screen with all kinds of interesting things playing, whether it's a hacker documentary or North Korean propaganda.
[24:54.450 --> 24:55.390]  Do we have that, Sasha?
[24:55.690 --> 24:58.810]  I think that they showed it as the opening movie, yeah.
[24:59.050 --> 24:59.290]  Uh-huh.
[24:59.410 --> 24:59.770]  It's kind of...
[24:59.770 --> 25:01.610]  Well, I have a copy of it now, thanks to you.
[25:01.770 --> 25:02.330]  Yes, you do.
[25:02.430 --> 25:05.270]  And I've got to tell you, there is nothing more interesting than watching.
[25:05.690 --> 25:09.410]  It's in English, North Korean propaganda, a 15-minute film, I think.
[25:10.310 --> 25:11.770]  It's about half an hour, I think.
[25:11.770 --> 25:14.170]  All right, so it's about maybe seven minutes per season.
[25:14.290 --> 25:14.430]  Yeah.
[25:16.070 --> 25:20.370]  And basically, everyone's just so happy, and just showing this on a big screen in English.
[25:20.650 --> 25:22.350]  Yeah, kind of scary happy in a way, though.
[25:22.490 --> 25:23.310]  It's just like...
[25:23.310 --> 25:31.610]  Well, and of course, we'd be remiss not to acknowledge Jen's amazing work on the artwork that was a part of this conference.
[25:31.610 --> 25:40.490]  One thing you may have noticed coming here this year was that there were just so many more decorations and a theme to the whole thing.
[25:40.670 --> 25:50.690]  We had the whole propaganda theme going from the beginning, but we also had banners and posters and flags and draperies and all kinds of things.
[25:50.690 --> 25:51.970]  And it just... it flowed.
[25:52.050 --> 25:52.370]  It worked.
[25:52.710 --> 26:07.930]  I just wanted to say, I didn't realize kind of how well it worked until the day after the conference I saw a photograph in the New York Times of Steve Wozniak standing in front of this bright red Big Brother is Watching You banner with the 2600 seal in front of the podium.
[26:07.930 --> 26:16.050]  And, you know, I had seen this scene several times throughout the conference, but just seeing this photograph in the New York Times, just wow.
[26:16.290 --> 26:20.390]  Yeah, I was kind of pinching myself on that one as well, because... I don't know.
[26:20.410 --> 26:21.330]  Is it still available online?
[26:21.390 --> 26:22.050]  Can people still see that?
[26:22.110 --> 26:22.630]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[26:22.830 --> 26:23.110]  Okay.
[26:23.270 --> 26:27.450]  If you... you can dig up the link either through the Times website or through our wiki.
[26:27.970 --> 26:35.170]  Okay, and we're going to be posting all the media links or local stories that we'll copy over, as well as all the pictures.
[26:35.170 --> 26:37.950]  If you have pictures, please send them to us.
[26:39.110 --> 26:40.990]  Gosh, you know, I was going to set up an email address.
[26:41.150 --> 26:41.690]  I'll tell you what.
[26:42.230 --> 26:45.390]  I'll set up an email address within 24 hours of this show.
[26:45.590 --> 26:46.150]  What should we call it?
[26:46.250 --> 26:47.190]  5H-something.
[26:47.790 --> 26:48.150]  Pictures.
[26:48.770 --> 26:50.390]  Well, it should be for more than just pictures.
[26:50.510 --> 26:52.410]  It should be for descriptions, you know.
[26:52.410 --> 26:52.770]  Links.
[26:53.650 --> 26:54.370]  5H-post.
[26:54.470 --> 26:54.910]  I like that.
[26:55.130 --> 26:55.310]  Okay.
[26:55.490 --> 26:57.310]  5H-post at 2600.com.
[26:58.310 --> 26:58.770]  Mail that.
[26:58.890 --> 26:59.510]  Don't mail it now.
[26:59.630 --> 27:00.230]  It'll bounce.
[27:00.390 --> 27:06.310]  But within 24 hours of this radio program, which is right now on June 14th, it's at 7.27 p.m.
[27:06.990 --> 27:07.430]  Eastern Time.
[27:08.350 --> 27:18.930]  Just wanted to say, one thing that is available now that has not been announced until right now is a lot of people have asked about where they can get copies of some of the artwork at the conference.
[27:19.290 --> 27:22.690]  So that has been posted to the website, but there's no links to it yet.
[27:22.930 --> 27:31.990]  However, if you go to hope.net slash art, you'll see an actually very ugly page considering the amount of beautiful artwork that's available from there.
[27:32.430 --> 27:38.070]  And you can download a lot of the propaganda and some of the logos that we used at the conference.
[27:38.390 --> 27:42.950]  Do we have a link to the guy that did the Big Brother poster?
[27:43.270 --> 27:44.290]  Yeah, he's on there.
[27:44.690 --> 27:45.970]  His name is Frederic.
[27:46.090 --> 27:46.850]  He's from Montreal.
[27:46.850 --> 27:49.650]  And his website is 1984comic.com.
[27:49.770 --> 27:52.330]  And in the time that you said that sentence, I loaded that picture.
[27:52.510 --> 27:54.150]  And Big Brother is now watching me.
[27:54.430 --> 27:54.610]  Yeah.
[27:56.050 --> 27:57.050]  And well, he should.
[27:58.190 --> 27:58.530]  All right.
[27:59.270 --> 28:00.130]  Now he's watching all of you.
[28:00.530 --> 28:00.890]  Yeah, Shorty.
[28:01.070 --> 28:05.730]  Oh, we now have one of those banners, the big red banners hanging in our living room.
[28:06.470 --> 28:08.550]  And it's kind of creepy and there's already people talking about...
[28:08.550 --> 28:10.330]  Doesn't it feel really comfortable, though?
[28:10.470 --> 28:14.810]  Yeah, people are starting to really go, eh, maybe we shouldn't hang that right there.
[28:16.890 --> 28:17.690]  It's, um...
[28:17.690 --> 28:20.250]  I think it's a memory of the weekend, but, um...
[28:20.250 --> 28:24.110]  By the way, thank you to the guy that let me buy it from you for $20.
[28:24.530 --> 28:25.210]  I appreciate it.
[28:25.250 --> 28:26.170]  We should have given it to you.
[28:26.930 --> 28:28.270]  But we certainly should have given it to Jim.
[28:28.970 --> 28:30.270]  We'll work that out afterwards.
[28:30.270 --> 28:40.730]  Oh, while we're on this subject, someone, unfortunately I don't remember who, showed me a photo they had taken of the police department's Atlas team in front of the two Big Brother posters.
[28:40.990 --> 28:41.390]  The what team?
[28:41.750 --> 28:45.730]  These are the heavily armed police department guys.
[28:45.870 --> 28:49.310]  The M-16s, the helmets, the large flak jackets.
[28:49.310 --> 28:50.910]  Were they there for us, or...?
[28:50.910 --> 28:57.350]  Well, they were in front of the Hotel Pennsylvania after Jim's original pictures had been censored.
[28:57.430 --> 28:57.790]  Oh, yes.
[28:57.790 --> 29:00.710]  And the Big Brother watching you posters went through the window.
[29:00.850 --> 29:02.010]  It is a classic photo.
[29:02.370 --> 29:03.150]  Where is it?
[29:03.470 --> 29:05.030]  Please send us a link to it.
[29:05.230 --> 29:06.190]  Send us that photo.
[29:07.110 --> 29:09.250]  Yeah, we want to post all the photos this year.
[29:09.330 --> 29:13.530]  One thing we haven't been very good at in years past is getting post-conference material up quickly.
[29:13.770 --> 29:17.050]  I think this year we had the staff where we can really do that and do a good job at it.
[29:17.130 --> 29:18.970]  So that's one thing I would certainly like to see.
[29:18.970 --> 29:27.670]  But yeah, Jim's original artwork, which was amazing, it was a man standing on the moon with an upside-down flag and George W.
[29:27.850 --> 29:29.290]  Bush with a clown outfit.
[29:29.290 --> 29:30.910]  This is not propaganda, it said.
[29:31.130 --> 29:36.810]  And this was the size of these huge windows on 7th Avenue right across the street from Penn Station.
[29:37.370 --> 29:41.450]  And people, lots and lots of people, thousands of people walked by this thing and saw it.
[29:41.490 --> 29:44.850]  And I guess a few of them got perturbed and complained to the hotel.
[29:44.850 --> 29:49.970]  And since technically the hotel hadn't approved that artwork, they asked us to put it someplace else.
[29:50.370 --> 30:01.010]  This is actually kind of Warwellian in that the approval process then existed and they told us that the approval process had always existed when no one we know ever heard of it before.
[30:01.350 --> 30:05.770]  Well, in all fairness, they did approve the Big Brother thing.
[30:05.950 --> 30:06.610]  Because I showed it to them.
[30:06.750 --> 30:09.570]  I didn't show them the other thing for a simple reason that it hadn't arrived yet.
[30:09.570 --> 30:12.690]  So, when it arrived, we put that in the window.
[30:13.010 --> 30:16.550]  And I guess the thing is, people kept calling after it had been taken down to complain.
[30:16.850 --> 30:18.250]  You know, it was really kind of funny.
[30:18.370 --> 30:20.590]  And the hotel people saw how ridiculous it was.
[30:20.690 --> 30:22.430]  They just didn't want, you know, bad publicity from that.
[30:22.490 --> 30:24.190]  It was fine because we just put it someplace else.
[30:24.390 --> 30:27.250]  No, the hotel people, I don't want to make them sound bad.
[30:27.350 --> 30:29.430]  They were great with that and with the whole conference.
[30:29.750 --> 30:30.590]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[30:32.270 --> 30:33.610]  And we, of course, have feedback.
[30:33.890 --> 30:34.850]  We're going to read some of the feedback.
[30:34.850 --> 30:44.210]  But we'd like to hear from you, our listeners, 212-209-2900, if you were there, part of this in some way, your feelings, your impressions, your questions, that kind of thing.
[30:45.110 --> 30:46.510]  Should I read this one?
[30:46.610 --> 30:48.170]  Because this is a funny letter, the one we got.
[30:48.810 --> 30:48.950]  Okay.
[30:49.310 --> 30:50.090]  Funny is always good.
[30:50.330 --> 30:52.030]  Because this was actually sent off the hook.
[30:52.350 --> 30:53.730]  We're getting all kinds of feedback.
[30:54.150 --> 30:57.310]  I guess we'll spend the next few weeks going through that occasionally.
[30:57.450 --> 31:00.850]  But I'd really like to hear live from people that have been part of this as well.
[31:01.070 --> 31:03.050]  And, of course, media coverage.
[31:03.050 --> 31:05.210]  If you find any of the media coverage, let us know about that.
[31:05.310 --> 31:07.890]  But this person took exception to some of the things we were doing.
[31:08.070 --> 31:10.050]  Let's go over this point by point.
[31:10.670 --> 31:19.590]  To the kind people at Off the Hook, since when did a conference where a bunch of geeks who like to tinker with electronics got together for a weekend of fun turn into something political?
[31:20.510 --> 31:21.630]  Well, it's funny.
[31:21.730 --> 31:25.770]  Adam, who's not here, wrote a response to this, just to that sentence.
[31:26.050 --> 31:27.290]  And it was just so...
[31:27.290 --> 31:33.890]  We should preface this, by the way, by pointing out that Adam is not one of the more political members of our group, I think it's fair to say.
[31:34.070 --> 31:35.970]  Well, I've never gotten into a political discussion, but you're probably right.
[31:36.350 --> 31:36.450]  Yeah.
[31:37.050 --> 31:38.390]  But he was dead on on this.
[31:38.510 --> 31:40.150]  His reply was... or response.
[31:41.090 --> 31:45.070]  I think that happened when the government began to outlaw our abilities to tinker with electronics.
[31:45.210 --> 31:46.030]  But I could be wrong.
[31:48.870 --> 31:49.750]  Continuing with the letter here.
[31:49.810 --> 31:57.670]  I've been to a lot of conferences, and given the nature of some of the articles in 2600 and the political views of a lot of you, I was a little nervous coming to the Fifth Hope as a Republican.
[31:58.150 --> 32:01.690]  I know a lot of people in this group disagree with my political views, and that's fine.
[32:01.770 --> 32:06.650]  I'll debate with anyone if they'd like, but I don't really bring it up at places like this because, to me, it's not relevant.
[32:06.890 --> 32:08.670]  There will always be people that disagree with me.
[32:08.870 --> 32:11.010]  If there wasn't, politics wouldn't exist.
[32:11.170 --> 32:13.070]  But this year, it was just over the top.
[32:13.190 --> 32:15.590]  This is a hacker conference, people, not a Kerry rally.
[32:15.810 --> 32:17.710]  If you want Jell-O as your keynote, fine.
[32:17.710 --> 32:21.370]  You can sit and listen to his talk, and I'll chill in the network room and talk to everyone else.
[32:21.650 --> 32:24.250]  I don't care if you have speakers that talk about hacking the RNC.
[32:24.550 --> 32:26.290]  That's why there are more than one track.
[32:26.290 --> 32:27.370]  I can go to something different.
[32:27.590 --> 32:38.950]  But the signs everywhere I went, the American flag desecrated on the 18th floor, the friggin' movie room with Kim Jong-il screaming, and the anti-Bush videos streaming every hour.
[32:39.470 --> 32:40.690]  WTF is that?
[32:41.010 --> 32:46.090]  I'm not going to get into the politics about how hypocritical the posters were.
[32:46.250 --> 32:48.210]  I'm pissed because they were just unnecessary.
[32:48.510 --> 32:52.430]  There should have been posters of computers, technology, all the things that go along with it.
[32:52.670 --> 32:56.270]  The movie room was a great idea, but it should have been showing 24-7 hacker movies.
[32:56.290 --> 32:59.970]  War games, antitrust, and pie were replaced...
[33:00.490 --> 33:01.850]  Hold on, I'll have you a chance.
[33:02.130 --> 33:05.810]  ...were replaced by idiotic clips of Bush saying the word terrorism.
[33:06.110 --> 33:09.110]  I felt like hacking was an afterthought to planning this conference.
[33:09.450 --> 33:12.430]  I absolutely loved H2K2, but all...
[33:12.430 --> 33:15.150]  I think H2K2 was more political, actually, but never mind that.
[33:15.430 --> 33:18.070]  All in all, I left the Fifth Hope with a bad taste in my mouth.
[33:18.070 --> 33:22.910]  I felt like politics outweighed the hacking and that I was considered the enemy because of my political views.
[33:23.190 --> 33:27.770]  I have my car covered in Bush stickers, but I also have it covered in Free Kevin and various EFF stickers.
[33:28.010 --> 33:32.250]  For all your talk about free speech, the Stop the RNC posters seem to contradict that.
[33:32.470 --> 33:41.130]  I'm as Republican as you can get, but I don't want the DNC stopped because opposing views are what this country was founded on and what makes it so great.
[33:41.670 --> 33:50.310]  Since the next hope won't be in an election year, I really hope that the focus is where it needs to be and you guys get your priorities straight and you put a lot of thought into what this conference is really supposed to be about.
[33:50.510 --> 33:51.450]  Signed, CTS.
[33:52.270 --> 33:54.330]  Just a response to the movie room statement.
[33:55.590 --> 33:59.550]  Basically, I mean, most of the stuff I showed wasn't political in nature.
[33:59.810 --> 34:00.390]  It was...
[34:00.390 --> 34:06.370]  We had documentaries, all sorts of documentaries, and a lot of them were interesting.
[34:06.550 --> 34:08.810]  We had old phone clips, things like that.
[34:09.890 --> 34:10.970]  But those people had long...
[34:10.970 --> 34:18.450]  And also, there was an open call for movies, so if someone didn't bring...
[34:18.450 --> 34:21.830]  I mean, if someone had brought me a video, I would have shown it.
[34:21.930 --> 34:26.430]  But I showed what was given to me, and I...
[34:26.430 --> 34:28.770]  But there was a lot of technical stuff.
[34:28.850 --> 34:29.590]  Yeah, there certainly was.
[34:29.650 --> 34:31.270]  It was mostly technical.
[34:31.430 --> 34:32.670]  You were showing Brazil.
[34:33.170 --> 34:33.370]  Yeah.
[34:35.270 --> 34:41.690]  Insofar as the posters and banners and things like that, that's just, you know, the theme of the whole conference was propaganda.
[34:42.250 --> 34:51.930]  Now, you know, we had pro-government propaganda, which, of course, people are going to say was being sarcastic, and you have anti-government propaganda, which people are going to say was our true feelings.
[34:52.090 --> 34:54.610]  So how do you win a situation like that when your theme is propaganda?
[34:54.830 --> 34:56.490]  You know, nothing we show is going to satisfy them.
[34:57.170 --> 34:57.630]  One last...
[34:57.630 --> 35:00.530]  And, you know, the propaganda thing is, like, it's important.
[35:00.530 --> 35:05.290]  In this day and age, I don't think we've ever been, you know, been hit with so much of it at one time.
[35:05.610 --> 35:06.350]  One last thing.
[35:06.510 --> 35:07.630]  I actually...
[35:08.190 --> 35:15.130]  Some of the movies that he mentioned were discussed, and we might have shown, but I really wanted to shy away from the commercial stuff and the people that someone...
[35:15.130 --> 35:17.190]  The things that people can go out and rent.
[35:17.790 --> 35:21.130]  And I really wanted to show things that you wouldn't normally see.
[35:21.290 --> 35:21.390]  Right.
[35:21.550 --> 35:21.910]  So...
[35:21.910 --> 35:22.090]  Right.
[35:22.590 --> 35:23.390]  And things like what...
[35:23.390 --> 35:25.630]  As for whether or not they're classic movies...
[35:26.590 --> 35:28.550]  Yeah, it's not about showing...
[35:28.550 --> 35:31.950]  It's about making you think and seeing things that you would never see anyplace else.
[35:32.170 --> 35:33.730]  That's kind of what it's all about.
[35:33.990 --> 35:45.630]  You're not going to be able to rent a big parade from North Korea with Kim Jong-il applauding one million people in the parade.
[35:45.990 --> 35:48.490]  And to start, I think the guy got the wrong idea.
[35:48.690 --> 35:54.570]  We were not, like, saying that we like North Korea, we like the form of government.
[35:55.630 --> 36:02.770]  We were saying that here's a great example of propaganda in a decade where we're getting more propaganda than ever.
[36:02.930 --> 36:04.790]  So if you want to see propaganda, this is...
[36:04.790 --> 36:12.410]  Seeing another country's propaganda is a good example and a good way to look at your own country's propaganda in perspective.
[36:12.750 --> 36:13.030]  Right.
[36:13.070 --> 36:14.590]  And you cannot get things like that.
[36:14.690 --> 36:15.550]  You won't see it on TV.
[36:15.550 --> 36:24.510]  You can't even get the Kim Jong-il thing at Kim's Video, which initially was owned by Kim Jong-il, but I'm not going to get into that right now, because that's a long story.
[36:26.110 --> 36:29.750]  But, I don't know, I think people might be thinking a little too seriously about this.
[36:30.050 --> 36:30.550]  There are many...
[36:30.550 --> 36:33.130]  Jim, I think you mentioned a couple of times you're a Republican.
[36:33.470 --> 36:37.790]  I was going to say, you know, I thought I sent that letter anonymously instead of under an alias.
[36:37.930 --> 36:40.010]  Why, did you feel uncomfortable with all the propaganda things?
[36:40.130 --> 36:41.030]  A little self-conscious, perhaps?
[36:41.530 --> 36:43.690]  Not as far as that correspondent went.
[36:43.690 --> 36:59.610]  But, I thought that, yes, it was a shade over the top, and I would agree with you on, gee, the theme of the conference was propaganda, except it was never stated, it was never explicitly said that the theme of the conference was propaganda.
[37:00.150 --> 37:02.110]  Instead, you're greeted by all this stuff.
[37:03.290 --> 37:12.570]  Artistic, much of it, but then there was the ad hoc, out of the newspaper, blatant anti-Republican, anti-Bush stuff.
[37:13.090 --> 37:24.550]  Literally, stuff taken out of newspapers and taped on the walls, as opposed to stuff that someone worked on with Photoshop or whatever, had printed up, and then had taped on the walls.
[37:24.550 --> 37:29.070]  There were things put up by attendees that, you know, weren't necessarily things we were putting up.
[37:29.190 --> 37:30.190]  All kinds of things were being put up.
[37:30.350 --> 37:35.970]  There was a Christian Hacker Association where we're putting up things, you know, all kinds of different views were being represented.
[37:35.970 --> 37:44.530]  I just have one thing to say, and that is, to the folks who put up things and have them taken down, it's probably because you used the wrong kind of tape.
[37:44.810 --> 37:51.990]  Yeah, you didn't come to the tape workshop that we held earlier, where we all held hands and figured out what kind of tape was best to use in the hotel.
[37:52.190 --> 37:53.510]  They have rules and regulations.
[37:53.810 --> 37:56.810]  Yeah, only art tape is allowed at the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[37:57.030 --> 37:58.010]  The kind that doesn't stick.
[37:58.250 --> 37:59.730]  Right, but it did stick for us.
[37:59.750 --> 38:01.170]  It stuck for a little while.
[38:01.330 --> 38:06.190]  I used the right kind of tape hanging stuff up, and it still tore chunks of paint down in places.
[38:07.170 --> 38:07.610]  Yeah.
[38:07.610 --> 38:07.610]  Yeah.
[38:08.930 --> 38:09.370]  All right.
[38:10.350 --> 38:14.190]  Anyway, 212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[38:14.290 --> 38:15.130]  Were you at the Fifth Hope?
[38:15.330 --> 38:16.710]  And what kind of experience?
[38:16.910 --> 38:19.050]  You know, we did have ready.gov posters.
[38:19.310 --> 38:21.670]  I mean, that wasn't a liberal thing.
[38:22.410 --> 38:22.690]  That's right.
[38:22.710 --> 38:23.190]  We took the room.
[38:23.190 --> 38:25.950]  I thought somebody made those things until somebody told me they were real.
[38:26.130 --> 38:26.930]  Yeah, me too.
[38:27.130 --> 38:29.950]  Well, Mike, actually, let's tell the story about how we found those in the first place.
[38:29.950 --> 38:33.450]  Yeah, the America Prepared Campaign, Inc.
[38:33.510 --> 38:41.350]  is a private institution which thinks that all Americans should know about ready.gov, Tom Rich's website about disaster preparedness.
[38:41.590 --> 38:51.790]  And they feel this so strongly that they poster their posters on construction sites next to the, you know, the movie posters and all that stuff.
[38:51.930 --> 38:55.430]  So I was walking around the city one day and saw these and kind of did a double take.
[38:55.570 --> 38:58.490]  You know, what's ready.gov doing on the construction sites.
[38:58.690 --> 39:00.310]  There's a picture of a flashlight or something.
[39:00.490 --> 39:00.490]  Right.
[39:00.530 --> 39:05.570]  All the, you know, I think there's eight of them, eight things that you need to be prepared in case of a disaster.
[39:06.110 --> 39:07.310]  Good advice, I guess.
[39:08.850 --> 39:14.350]  And so I called them up and said that we would like copies of your posters for display at our conference.
[39:14.730 --> 39:18.070]  And they were, they really went out of their way to be helpful to me.
[39:18.210 --> 39:23.970]  They sent me to their advertising agency where I could pick up, you know, lots and lots of copies of all their posters.
[39:24.170 --> 39:26.310]  And they were, they were very kind to provide those.
[39:26.310 --> 39:26.310]  Yes.
[39:26.770 --> 39:27.430]  Yeah, they were.
[39:27.590 --> 39:29.050]  And, but the posters are kind of weird.
[39:29.150 --> 39:36.810]  I was convinced it was some kind of art project because they just had these, these strange pictures of various objects and how this will help keep you safe.
[39:37.030 --> 39:39.310]  You know, the pliers was a good one.
[39:39.390 --> 39:39.930]  The pliers.
[39:40.110 --> 39:40.210]  Yeah.
[39:40.310 --> 39:42.510]  I mean, americaprepared.org.
[39:42.630 --> 39:50.630]  But not only that, the people behind this, you know, people in the entertainment business were somehow connected to this.
[39:50.890 --> 39:59.690]  Uh, Stephen Brill, who formerly the, the media comment person is, is the, uh, chair of the americaprepared campaign, Inc.
[39:59.970 --> 40:01.550]  Harvey Weinstein is part of this.
[40:01.790 --> 40:02.870]  Everyone's behind it, man.
[40:03.090 --> 40:03.530]  Yeah.
[40:03.670 --> 40:06.370]  So, uh, that, that kind of thing really, really makes you think.
[40:06.490 --> 40:14.070]  But in any event, if you're uncomfortable, well, you know, that's life, but you, you could always go to, uh, a panel and hear different views.
[40:14.410 --> 40:17.170]  Certainly the people giving the talks were not all the same mindset.
[40:18.030 --> 40:21.990]  So, um, maybe the passageways that got you there had things you disagreed with.
[40:22.230 --> 40:24.630]  Imagine how we feel every day walking down the street.
[40:24.990 --> 40:31.770]  Because we have to hold our noses and cover our eyes because of all the, uh, the ugly things that are, we're being exposed to constantly.
[40:32.010 --> 40:32.910]  I want to, propaganda.
[40:33.090 --> 40:34.550]  I want to thank the attendees.
[40:34.790 --> 40:37.550]  We had, uh, slightly over 2,000 attendees.
[40:38.110 --> 40:46.510]  And, you know, all but, I think, one or two of these attendees did not vandalize the telescreens showing Sienna in the hotel elevators.
[40:46.610 --> 40:48.730]  And that took a tremendous amount of self-control.
[40:49.250 --> 40:51.810]  Yeah, you know, that, uh, something does have to be said about that.
[40:51.970 --> 40:54.730]  Because there are idiots in any, in any group of people.
[40:54.850 --> 40:57.630]  And when you have more than a couple of thousand people, there are going to be a couple of idiots.
[40:57.750 --> 40:58.850]  I'm assuming there are idiots.
[40:58.970 --> 41:00.030]  They might have been someone else's idiots.
[41:00.210 --> 41:11.070]  But the thing is, once, once it became clear that somebody was running around doing something they shouldn't be doing, other people stepped in and helped out and, and brought it to a close and fixed whatever problem there was.
[41:11.610 --> 41:13.570]  And that's, uh, a testament to, uh, to the community.
[41:13.690 --> 41:20.950]  Uh, I saw some clever solutions that people had, such as cutting out, uh, the center of a piece of paper and then putting, writing on that and putting that around the screen.
[41:21.170 --> 41:22.670]  Yeah, no, that's not what we're talking about at all.
[41:22.790 --> 41:24.270]  Which is making a statement, but not vandalizing.
[41:24.290 --> 41:24.910]  That's not vandalism.
[41:25.050 --> 41:25.190]  No, I know.
[41:25.190 --> 41:26.030]  That's a political statement.
[41:26.050 --> 41:29.190]  I just want to make sure that wasn't, you know, what we, uh, were saying here.
[41:29.230 --> 41:30.510]  It was interpreted that way.
[41:30.810 --> 41:34.710]  Yeah, uh, surrounding the TV set saying, question everything that you, uh, watch.
[41:35.250 --> 41:39.070]  You know, might not have made the hotel very happy, but it does get your viewpoint across and doesn't hurt anybody.
[41:39.070 --> 41:44.970]  But, uh, you know, scrolling graffiti is not exactly, uh, the right way to do anything, uh, in a situation like that.
[41:45.910 --> 41:47.090]  Uh, shall we take some phone calls?
[41:47.170 --> 41:48.670]  212-209-2900.
[41:50.010 --> 41:50.830]  And good evening.
[41:50.970 --> 41:51.190]  You're on.
[41:52.030 --> 41:53.530]  Yes, I enjoyed the conference.
[41:53.830 --> 41:54.970]  I figured you might, Rebel.
[41:55.450 --> 42:08.070]  And I also would like to mention that, um, I'm very disappointed at the New York Post because they did not put my, they interviewed me and they did not put my article, they took a picture of me and everything, they did not put my article in the paper.
[42:08.070 --> 42:09.370]  That wasn't the New York Post, Rebel.
[42:09.630 --> 42:10.510]  That was the government.
[42:11.330 --> 42:11.890]  Next call.
[42:13.070 --> 42:13.710]  Good evening.
[42:14.130 --> 42:14.790]  You're on the air.
[42:15.450 --> 42:16.090]  Hey, what's up, guys?
[42:16.210 --> 42:16.850]  We sent them, too.
[42:17.190 --> 42:18.570]  Uh, yes, uh, what's on your mind?
[42:19.190 --> 42:21.410]  Uh, I just wanted to thank you guys for the conference.
[42:21.530 --> 42:27.510]  I went, uh, for my first time, I wanted to go in 2002 and I couldn't, but, uh, I had an awesome time.
[42:27.770 --> 42:28.370]  Thanks for, uh...
[42:28.370 --> 42:28.550]  Great.
[42:28.990 --> 42:29.670]  Where'd you come from?
[42:30.170 --> 42:30.890]  Uh, Connecticut.
[42:31.150 --> 42:36.170]  I took a bus up and, uh, just stayed for the weekend and, uh, I had a good time.
[42:36.170 --> 42:39.510]  I really enjoyed, uh, a lot of the, uh, I didn't get to see everything.
[42:39.610 --> 42:42.810]  I can't wait for the stuff to go up online because there was a lot of stuff I missed, but, uh...
[42:42.810 --> 42:43.210]  Same here.
[42:43.650 --> 42:47.210]  The, uh, digital rights management thing, uh, I think it was Michael Sims.
[42:47.490 --> 42:54.830]  I wanted to get one comment and he was talking about, um, uh, trusted computing platform and there not being a database and I was waiting to comment.
[42:55.010 --> 43:05.650]  I got just cut off, but there is a database of companies and ship sets that are supporting, uh, trusted computing platform, uh, whatever you, whatever they call it now, Palladium, all that stuff.
[43:05.930 --> 43:09.090]  It's, uh, anti-TCPA.com.
[43:09.850 --> 43:12.710]  And there's like, I don't know, however many companies listed there.
[43:13.830 --> 43:14.610]  Okay, great.
[43:15.530 --> 43:17.070]  That was your, was that your favorite panel?
[43:17.970 --> 43:20.570]  Um, I, I, it's hard to pick a favorite panel.
[43:20.770 --> 43:25.170]  I, uh, uh, I did, I did get to get my, uh, picture with Jello Biafra, which was cool.
[43:25.810 --> 43:26.530]  Great, great.
[43:26.810 --> 43:33.090]  Uh, yeah, I'm, uh, I really enjoyed the, uh, the movie room and, uh, all that stuff.
[43:33.170 --> 43:34.310]  It was just too much to take in.
[43:34.470 --> 43:37.250]  And, uh, I can't wait, like I said, for the stuff to go up online.
[43:37.490 --> 43:42.190]  And, uh, and I got the, finally got the DVD, which was, uh, which was great.
[43:42.350 --> 43:49.490]  My Xbox is having some trouble playing it, but, uh, I don't know if, I don't know if that's my, uh, a buddy of mine's trying out the disc, so.
[43:50.450 --> 43:53.190]  Well, there are, there are some compatibility issues with any DVD.
[43:53.310 --> 44:04.750]  And, and this one is so complex with all different things going on, but if you have any trouble, just let us know and we'll, uh, I, I, I, I think it's probably just, uh, I don't know, my laser could be going out of alignment, but he's going to, uh, burn me off,
[44:04.910 --> 44:08.890]  uh, a copy and see if the copy plays better, but, uh, okay.
[44:08.970 --> 44:09.970]  Let us know about that.
[44:10.350 --> 44:10.670]  Okay.
[44:11.010 --> 44:16.030]  I think there was something else I wanted to say, but I'm completely forgetting it, but, uh, uh, thanks guys.
[44:16.410 --> 44:16.730]  Thanks.
[44:17.590 --> 44:19.350]  212-209-2900.
[44:19.490 --> 44:22.470]  Of course, you can write to us O-T-H at 2600.com.
[44:22.830 --> 44:23.550]  Ann, good evening.
[44:23.650 --> 44:23.990]  You're on the air.
[44:24.330 --> 44:29.970]  Yeah, the British Broadcasting Company interviewed me also, and... Yeah, that was their, their, uh, misfortune as well.
[44:30.050 --> 44:30.310]  Good evening.
[44:30.390 --> 44:30.770]  You're on the air.
[44:32.930 --> 44:33.290]  Okay.
[44:33.290 --> 44:34.010]  Good evening.
[44:34.310 --> 44:34.910]  You're on the air.
[44:35.810 --> 44:36.110]  Uh-oh.
[44:36.570 --> 44:36.930]  Okay.
[44:37.510 --> 44:38.290]  Let's try this one.
[44:38.430 --> 44:38.930]  Good evening.
[44:39.130 --> 44:39.610]  You're on the air.
[44:40.110 --> 44:41.050]  Hey, how's it going?
[44:41.110 --> 44:42.290]  Uh, I was at the show.
[44:42.470 --> 44:51.250]  I'm actually, uh, law professor over here in New Jersey, and I wanted to let you guys know that, uh, do you know who was in the movie room, uh, when I went in?
[44:51.530 --> 44:55.170]  Uh, do you remember Wojo from the Barney Miller show?
[44:55.330 --> 44:56.010]  Wojo Horwitz?
[44:56.390 --> 44:56.750]  Really?
[44:57.230 --> 44:58.290]  He was in the movie room.
[44:58.410 --> 44:58.950]  Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[44:59.070 --> 44:59.250]  Stop.
[44:59.390 --> 44:59.830]  Everybody stop.
[44:59.970 --> 45:00.870]  Wait, wait a second.
[45:00.910 --> 45:04.070]  You mean the actor who plays Wojo Horwitz came to our conference?
[45:04.370 --> 45:04.570]  Yeah.
[45:04.630 --> 45:04.990]  Absolutely.
[45:05.150 --> 45:05.770]  He was in there.
[45:06.310 --> 45:08.230]  Do you mean someone who looks like him was in there?
[45:08.370 --> 45:08.850]  Or was he?
[45:08.850 --> 45:09.290]  No, no, no, no.
[45:09.430 --> 45:11.890]  I mean, Wojo Horwitz was in there.
[45:12.130 --> 45:13.050]  Uh, oh my God.
[45:13.170 --> 45:13.910]  He's my hero.
[45:14.110 --> 45:14.550]  How can I?
[45:14.670 --> 45:14.790]  Oh.
[45:15.150 --> 45:15.510]  I know.
[45:15.630 --> 45:16.130]  I loved him.
[45:16.250 --> 45:16.790]  I loved him.
[45:17.010 --> 45:20.190]  I think, uh, by the way, that we're having a bit of a generation gap here.
[45:20.350 --> 45:23.870]  Well, then, you know, you just simply have to go online or something and find episodes.
[45:24.170 --> 45:25.190]  It's, it's, it's brilliantly written.
[45:25.330 --> 45:27.650]  It's about the, uh, Max Gale, I believe is the actor's name.
[45:27.690 --> 45:27.990]  Max Gale, yeah.
[45:28.190 --> 45:31.390]  Did you, did you actually talk to him and confirm that it was Max Gale?
[45:31.550 --> 45:45.950]  Yeah, because actually my girlfriend recognized him at, this is bizarre, but anyway, she recognized him as the, uh, as Kruger from George Costanza's boss, Kruger on Seinfeld.
[45:46.150 --> 45:48.990]  And I was like, oh, you know, you know, you're right.
[45:49.230 --> 45:49.710]  Wait a minute.
[45:49.770 --> 45:50.510]  He's that too?
[45:50.850 --> 45:51.110]  Yeah.
[45:51.250 --> 45:51.370]  Yeah.
[45:51.570 --> 45:52.750]  And then I was like, wait a minute.
[45:52.770 --> 45:53.470]  Oh my goodness.
[45:54.010 --> 45:56.850]  That's Wojo from, uh, from Barney Miller.
[45:56.990 --> 46:02.450]  And I went over and I was talking, he is well into hacking, which completely blew me away.
[46:02.850 --> 46:03.170]  Yeah.
[46:03.590 --> 46:04.970]  We're flabbergasted here.
[46:05.170 --> 46:05.810]  My days made.
[46:05.910 --> 46:07.270]  What movie were you watching at the time?
[46:07.870 --> 46:08.410]  Oh, geez.
[46:08.630 --> 46:11.010]  I, uh, I have no idea what the hell it was.
[46:12.070 --> 46:13.190]  Um, I don't know.
[46:13.290 --> 46:16.410]  She was probably watching and I was passing through and, and caught up with it.
[46:16.590 --> 46:18.850]  But, uh, yeah, he was there.
[46:19.150 --> 46:20.650]  That's, uh, you never know who you're going to run into.
[46:20.890 --> 46:21.490]  No, you never do.
[46:22.110 --> 46:22.710]  Bizarre, right?
[46:23.150 --> 46:25.830]  But you know, I have to say, it's probably the last person I would have expected to see there.
[46:26.210 --> 46:26.530]  Absolutely.
[46:26.850 --> 46:29.510]  Well, well, Jehowitz, if you're out there listening or, you know, it's your real name.
[46:29.830 --> 46:31.110]  Uh, thanks for coming.
[46:31.930 --> 46:32.330]  Yeah.
[46:32.910 --> 46:33.050]  Yeah.
[46:33.790 --> 46:34.110]  Boy.
[46:34.330 --> 46:34.570]  Good stuff.
[46:34.690 --> 46:35.710]  Hey guys, great show.
[46:35.830 --> 46:36.070]  All right.
[46:36.150 --> 46:36.350]  Thanks.
[46:36.390 --> 46:38.810]  Uh, thanks for calling for letting us know that.
[46:39.010 --> 46:41.490]  I guess everybody has a surprising moment at the conference.
[46:41.690 --> 46:42.730]  Oh, here's a surprising moment.
[46:42.890 --> 46:43.810]  I don't know if you guys are aware of this.
[46:43.870 --> 46:45.670]  I wanted to mention at the closing ceremonies, but I forgot.
[46:46.070 --> 46:50.330]  Uh, but, uh, you might've seen shapeshifter, uh, uh, walking around with his kid.
[46:50.530 --> 46:54.250]  Uh, he's, he's got a really adorable, uh, baby daughter, uh, named Zoe.
[46:54.750 --> 46:57.690]  She took her first steps during the lock picking panel.
[46:58.610 --> 47:00.010]  It was really something.
[47:00.230 --> 47:02.290]  I think a number of people saw it, the first steps ever.
[47:02.470 --> 47:03.450]  And that's when, when they occurred.
[47:03.630 --> 47:03.970]  It's yes.
[47:04.110 --> 47:06.090]  Well, she was infatuated with Barry.
[47:06.250 --> 47:08.650]  She saw him up there and just wanted to get closer.
[47:08.830 --> 47:09.910]  I thought she was running the other way.
[47:10.270 --> 47:11.390]  No, no, no, no.
[47:11.650 --> 47:13.750]  No, that's, that's, that's really, uh, that's great.
[47:14.530 --> 47:14.890]  Okay.
[47:14.890 --> 47:17.250]  212-209-2900.
[47:17.370 --> 47:17.650]  Good evening.
[47:17.770 --> 47:17.990]  You're on.
[47:19.070 --> 47:20.090]  Hi, my name is Max.
[47:20.390 --> 47:20.850]  How you doing?
[47:21.030 --> 47:21.550]  Where are you calling from?
[47:22.070 --> 47:23.550]  I'm calling from, uh, Connecticut.
[47:24.410 --> 47:24.950]  What's on your mind?
[47:25.350 --> 47:29.430]  Uh, I was at the, uh, H2K and, uh, I mean the fifth hope.
[47:29.750 --> 47:33.490]  No, at the, I was at the one two years ago and the fifth hope.
[47:33.850 --> 47:37.870]  And I'm, uh, especially interested in the social engineering contest.
[47:38.690 --> 47:40.750]  Oh, you mean this one, the one we just did?
[47:40.890 --> 47:41.130]  Yeah.
[47:41.310 --> 47:41.810]  Oh boy.
[47:41.970 --> 47:48.110]  And I'm just wondering why, uh, why you guys were unable to dial out to certain numbers again?
[47:48.270 --> 47:48.910]  I don't know.
[47:49.010 --> 47:53.830]  That was interesting because we tried calling an 800 number and it said this number cannot be called from your area.
[47:54.010 --> 47:59.490]  And it was an 800 number for something that we definitely should have been able to reach without any kind of a problem.
[48:00.090 --> 48:00.950]  Uh, it was easy.
[48:01.130 --> 48:04.110]  I did test it Friday morning, um, or Thursday night rather.
[48:04.310 --> 48:06.070]  And we were able to call 800 numbers then.
[48:06.190 --> 48:07.050]  So something changed.
[48:07.210 --> 48:11.050]  I was trying to call MasterCard and American Express and I could not get through that way.
[48:11.230 --> 48:11.370]  Yeah.
[48:11.510 --> 48:15.350]  It appeared that, uh, we used a calling card though to call 800 numbers and that worked out.
[48:15.490 --> 48:21.490]  It also appeared that when you picked up the phone, there was some type of touch tones or noises coming on the line as well.
[48:21.870 --> 48:23.250]  Was that you by any chance?
[48:24.610 --> 48:25.830]  Somebody was calling in.
[48:25.950 --> 48:27.750]  Someone found out the phone number and was calling in.
[48:27.970 --> 48:29.590]  I'm wondering if it's our caller, Emmanuel.
[48:29.750 --> 48:30.790]  Why would you, why would you wonder that?
[48:30.870 --> 48:31.550]  I wonder why.
[48:31.890 --> 48:32.290]  Oh, gee.
[48:32.630 --> 48:33.770]  Do you guys know each other?
[48:33.890 --> 48:34.750]  Is that what's going on here?
[48:35.050 --> 48:36.450]  It was easy to figure out.
[48:36.650 --> 48:39.190]  So, uh, I just kept hanging up on that person on the social engineering.
[48:39.190 --> 48:40.450]  Well, he just hung up on us.
[48:40.550 --> 48:40.670]  Yes.
[48:41.050 --> 48:43.850]  Well, okay, Bernie, why'd you tell us the story since you obviously knew that was the person?
[48:44.490 --> 48:46.450]  Um, well, I guess probably it was sound of voice.
[48:46.590 --> 48:47.770]  You could tell he was probably involved.
[48:47.950 --> 48:49.070]  The sound of the voice?
[48:49.550 --> 48:55.670]  During our social engineering panel, besides having to use a calling card to call the internet numbers, which was a quick workaround network fine.
[48:55.850 --> 49:02.370]  When we first went off hook for you to make your first call, Emmanuel, uh, there was somebody playing, uh, Mary had a little lamb with touch tones.
[49:02.790 --> 49:09.410]  So I thought, uh-huh, somebody, somebody plugged the phone into one of our jacks and did a, and an anac and I got the number back.
[49:09.550 --> 49:16.610]  So at, before each call after that, I would, I would take the line off hook and hang up right away and then go off hook again, then get our dial tones.
[49:16.770 --> 49:17.590]  You could make your calls.
[49:17.870 --> 49:21.730]  So we basically just kept hanging up on the guy and it was fine once you figured out what was happening.
[49:22.030 --> 49:24.270]  We also had two lines so we could switch from one to the other.
[49:24.550 --> 49:28.510]  So it made his life a little bit more difficult, but yeah, you know, I should point out a couple of things.
[49:28.710 --> 49:30.290]  Uh, we did, uh, three things.
[49:30.370 --> 49:31.690]  Well, we had a great panel this year.
[49:31.790 --> 49:36.650]  We had, uh, Cheshire Catalyst, we had Kevin Mitnick, uh, and, uh, who else was on that panel?
[49:36.730 --> 49:37.950]  Wasn't there another person on the panel?
[49:38.370 --> 49:38.970]  I'm forgetting.
[49:39.670 --> 49:42.110]  Well, me, yeah, I know that, but I thought there were four people.
[49:42.570 --> 49:42.930]  Bernie.
[49:43.130 --> 49:43.490]  Bernie.
[49:43.610 --> 49:44.230]  I'm sorry, Bernie.
[49:45.550 --> 49:47.750]  I just, because you were talking to me right now, I forgot.
[49:48.330 --> 49:51.370]  Um, but we tried, uh, uh, was it three different things?
[49:51.490 --> 49:54.630]  The first thing was, um, uh, Taco Bell.
[49:55.250 --> 50:00.910]  Um, basically just at random, uh, we called a, uh, Taco Bell, um, I think downtown.
[50:01.210 --> 50:02.450]  Well, we called a couple to get information.
[50:02.590 --> 50:04.790]  We wanted to find out what their, what kind of cash register they had.
[50:05.190 --> 50:11.650]  And then we called one and we told them that, uh, apparently just like, just like last time, they had been having trouble with their cash register.
[50:11.730 --> 50:13.770]  In fact, someone had talked to them about it earlier.
[50:14.290 --> 50:15.930]  And so this must happen a lot.
[50:16.110 --> 50:27.350]  We asked them to, um, uh, to simply not use their cash register, not use any of the cash registers so that we could send a firmware upgrade through the phone lines that they weren't connected to.
[50:27.930 --> 50:30.090]  And, uh, and, and fix everything that way.
[50:30.210 --> 50:37.970]  So we convinced them between the hour of nine and nine Oh five on Sunday night, not to use any of the cash registers.
[50:38.950 --> 50:40.490]  And, uh, they agreed to this.
[50:40.790 --> 50:43.670]  Actually people after the conference went down with video cameras.
[50:43.810 --> 50:48.330]  Turns out they, they had to be prodded a little bit because they, they forgot at nine o'clock.
[50:48.430 --> 50:50.610]  So someone else called them and said, uh, it's nine o'clock.
[50:50.730 --> 50:54.850]  And they said, Oh, and they, they just stopped using the cash registers for five minutes.
[50:54.930 --> 50:55.590]  There's video.
[50:56.130 --> 50:57.030]  There really is.
[50:57.210 --> 50:59.570]  So that was one example of, uh, social engineering.
[50:59.850 --> 51:03.090]  Uh, the other thing was, uh, that's right.
[51:03.150 --> 51:03.750]  The video store.
[51:03.830 --> 51:18.570]  I called the video store and I was very angry because I, I'd gotten a phone call saying that, uh, that I had been charged for something and I just picked a name at random, picked a, an initial, got someone else's first name because he started rattling off all the people with the last name of Jones.
[51:19.130 --> 51:24.010]  And I was able to get both that person's phone number and that person's address given to me by the video store.
[51:24.750 --> 51:27.450]  Uh, and finally, uh, there was, uh, American Express.
[51:27.810 --> 51:36.930]  Uh, we, we called American Express and we wanted to get the number, the direct number for a call center in India, you know, so that we could call them directly and bypass the 800 number and pay a lot of money.
[51:37.450 --> 51:42.210]  Uh, so that kind of information they don't give out and we had to be transferred all over the place in order to get that.
[51:42.310 --> 51:48.310]  But eventually they did give us a number and someone from India came up to me afterwards and said, yes, that's definitely a number in that area.
[51:49.350 --> 51:55.470]  So, uh, yeah, social engineering, it's always fun calling people on the phone and, and, and trying to, uh, get them to tell you things they really shouldn't be telling you.
[51:56.370 --> 51:57.690]  Let's, uh, take another phone call.
[51:58.610 --> 51:59.370]  And good evening.
[51:59.510 --> 51:59.950]  You're on the air.
[52:00.410 --> 52:01.130]  Uh, hi.
[52:01.390 --> 52:01.710]  How you doing?
[52:02.050 --> 52:06.150]  Um, uh, first I want to say it was a great, great conference.
[52:06.470 --> 52:07.590]  Uh, had a lot of fun.
[52:07.830 --> 52:12.310]  Never been to one before, but this was a really, you know, fun time.
[52:13.250 --> 52:18.870]  Um, and I'm, I'm wondering about, uh, about the social engineering thing.
[52:19.050 --> 52:23.270]  What was that number you called to, uh, to mask your caller ID?
[52:23.470 --> 52:27.650]  I mean, you're probably not going to tell me the number, but how do you find, find out stuff like that?
[52:27.930 --> 52:35.590]  Well, actually that's, um, it's something that a friend runs, uh, but, uh, people are able to set up things like this.
[52:35.630 --> 52:37.570]  It was, it was basically a phone number that you dial.
[52:37.850 --> 52:40.930]  Uh, it tells you, it asks you for the number you want to call.
[52:41.110 --> 52:45.290]  And then it asks you for the, I believe the phrasing was, uh, the number that you should be calling from.
[52:45.470 --> 52:45.510]  Yeah.
[52:46.010 --> 52:56.530]  And, and what happens is, and we demonstrated this, uh, using our document camera, we focused on a cell phone and you saw that the number that a random person from the audience picked out displayed on the screen.
[52:56.530 --> 53:01.730]  So you could basically convince someone you were someplace else or somebody else very easily.
[53:01.770 --> 53:03.370]  And we just wanted to make that clear.
[53:03.530 --> 53:05.410]  And that's a great tool to have in social engineering.
[53:05.610 --> 53:07.130]  Yeah, that was, that was pretty cool.
[53:07.710 --> 53:07.970]  Yeah.
[53:08.430 --> 53:08.750]  All right.
[53:08.870 --> 53:09.330]  Thanks for your call.
[53:09.970 --> 53:10.410]  Thanks.
[53:10.810 --> 53:12.190]  212-209-2900.
[53:12.490 --> 53:13.070]  And good evening.
[53:13.190 --> 53:13.390]  You're on.
[53:15.970 --> 53:16.530]  Oh, here.
[53:16.610 --> 53:16.890]  Good evening.
[53:17.010 --> 53:17.470]  You're on the air.
[53:18.790 --> 53:20.470]  Uh, Hey Manuel, it's Montag.
[53:20.690 --> 53:21.290]  Hey, how you doing?
[53:21.450 --> 53:22.670]  Uh, your radio, it seems to be on.
[53:22.850 --> 53:24.690]  Wait, I'm turning it off now.
[53:24.810 --> 53:25.030]  Okay.
[53:25.390 --> 53:31.150]  I'm trying to listen to you on shortwave and it's, uh, and I had to put across the room to hear anything.
[53:31.710 --> 53:38.510]  So, uh, anyway, yeah, I had a pretty exciting time on the, on security, not exciting, bad, exciting, fun.
[53:38.690 --> 53:38.950]  Mm-hmm.
[53:39.710 --> 53:40.270]  Well, that's good.
[53:40.430 --> 53:42.010]  Uh, you got a chance to see any, any panels?
[53:42.490 --> 53:43.310]  Uh, let's see.
[53:43.450 --> 53:58.490]  I, uh, got to sit and, uh, monitor your entire panel, uh, as you guys mentioned earlier on the radio, on the live radio, which was kind of distracting because, uh, there was a, um, there was a delay between you guys speaking and the sound in the room.
[53:58.730 --> 53:58.970]  Mm-hmm.
[53:59.150 --> 54:00.850]  Then there's a delay on the radio.
[54:01.270 --> 54:01.470]  Mm-hmm.
[54:01.630 --> 54:06.130]  So, uh, and so I stopped watching you guys and just started listening.
[54:06.350 --> 54:09.290]  And the next thing I know, you guys are pointing at me.
[54:10.350 --> 54:17.710]  And, and, you know, a couple seconds later, something comes through on the radio, cuing me to, uh, you know, take a look.
[54:17.830 --> 54:20.590]  And I waved back at you and went back to my duties.
[54:20.590 --> 54:25.190]  And, uh, and then the other big thing was getting stuck in the elevator with Woz.
[54:25.470 --> 54:25.850]  Wow.
[54:26.030 --> 54:27.190]  How'd you, how'd you manage that?
[54:27.630 --> 54:29.370]  Well, we entered the elevator.
[54:29.610 --> 54:31.950]  I think it was magic, so I suspect Kevin.
[54:32.230 --> 54:36.870]  But, um, the... As long as you didn't push the emergency stop button, I guess that's all that matters.
[54:37.090 --> 54:38.990]  No, we all walked into the elevator.
[54:39.170 --> 54:41.650]  The doors closed and it didn't move anywhere.
[54:41.950 --> 54:49.010]  And, uh, then, uh, Cheshire started, uh, pushing buttons in an intelligent manner and nothing was happening.
[54:49.250 --> 54:54.890]  So then one of the other security guys started putting, pushing buttons in a random manner and that didn't help either.
[54:55.590 --> 55:06.470]  And then finally I made the radio call and then I heard the most panic I've ever heard over those radios at a con at, uh, cause I worked, uh, two years ago too.
[55:06.950 --> 55:17.210]  And, um, the, uh, there's all these panicky people who were outside the elevator and we're all inside just kind of giggling and, you know, making a good time of it.
[55:17.370 --> 55:30.810]  And then finally, uh, I think Psycho got the elevator running again from the outside and then we ended up, uh, using our alternate route to the, uh, uh, to the speaker's room on, uh, through, up the escalator and up the other elevator.
[55:31.030 --> 55:35.610]  We really should give, uh, a lot of credit to Psycho, uh, for, for getting us those radios in the first place.
[55:35.710 --> 55:36.330]  Oh yeah.
[55:36.810 --> 55:38.230]  And there were great radios too.
[55:38.570 --> 55:52.470]  And, uh, let's see the, uh, Kevin was great out of that deal with, uh, Kevin spoofing numbers really does work because he, uh, he called me on my cell phone using my customer's, uh, home phone number.
[55:53.830 --> 55:54.230]  Yeah.
[55:54.310 --> 55:55.670]  So he's always one for the prank there.
[55:55.890 --> 55:57.990]  Guy, listen, we're gonna have to go because we're out of time.
[55:58.130 --> 55:58.310]  Okay.
[55:58.430 --> 55:58.890]  Great show.
[55:59.010 --> 56:00.650]  Thanks so much for all the, all the help you were this weekend.
[56:00.930 --> 56:02.210]  Oh, you're very welcome.
[56:02.410 --> 56:02.710]  Thank you.
[56:02.830 --> 56:02.970]  All right.
[56:03.010 --> 56:03.710]  We'll see you next time.
[56:04.310 --> 56:07.090]  And, uh, yeah, that, that, those radios were great.
[56:07.330 --> 56:13.550]  Uh, it's, it's, it was wonderful to be able to communicate with people, uh, no matter what, that someone on the 18th floor could communicate with somebody on the first floor.
[56:13.690 --> 56:16.850]  In fact, Bernie, I think you walked all the way down to 29th street and were able to still talk to people.
[56:17.070 --> 56:17.350]  Yes.
[56:17.430 --> 56:18.250]  They were highly effective.
[56:18.470 --> 56:23.910]  And we, uh, because we chose the right frequencies, we avoided interference, uh, both deliberate and, uh, accidental.
[56:24.150 --> 56:28.530]  And I should also point out, Psycho was our, uh, on-site EMT for the entire conference.
[56:28.650 --> 56:31.530]  Should anyone, uh, fall ill, uh, we were well-prepared.
[56:31.530 --> 56:33.190]  So we were prepared for everything, it seems.
[56:33.190 --> 56:39.870]  And we also have to give credit to, uh, Chris Petro for, uh, his amazing work in putting together an AV team on very short notice.
[56:40.110 --> 56:41.930]  It worked like a charm this year.
[56:42.090 --> 56:43.810]  No, no problems that I could see.
[56:43.950 --> 56:44.930]  It was set up perfectly.
[56:45.190 --> 56:51.030]  Uh, all the speakers were very happy with it and everything that, uh, we needed to have work seemed to work just, just fine.
[56:51.230 --> 57:02.730]  And of course, uh, no, uh, uh, uh, we also want to make sure that Ethan gets, uh, plenty of credit for that as well for making the, um, um, the signal flow downstairs and all kinds of other cool things too.
[57:02.870 --> 57:07.450]  Like having, uh, an LED display of, uh, what's playing in the movie room right now at this moment.
[57:07.730 --> 57:08.530]  That was kind of neat.
[57:08.850 --> 57:10.230]  So any, any final words from anybody?
[57:10.250 --> 57:11.510]  Because we're, we got to get out of here.
[57:12.830 --> 57:14.470]  I want to thank all the volunteers again.
[57:14.610 --> 57:19.690]  Again, we had well over a hundred people, uh, without whom this conference, uh, simply couldn't have happened.
[57:19.810 --> 57:24.070]  None of them got paid and they all just pitched in to, to make everything flow smoothly.
[57:24.470 --> 57:26.170]  And I think this is our best conference ever.
[57:26.290 --> 57:26.790]  I do too.
[57:26.910 --> 57:27.310]  I really do.
[57:27.390 --> 57:27.650]  Shardy?
[57:28.150 --> 57:29.690]  Sorry about your room getting trashed.
[57:29.790 --> 57:30.290]  Oh yeah.
[57:30.410 --> 57:35.770]  Well that, that kind of thing happens, but we're not going to, uh, we're not going to even worry about spilled milk.
[57:35.990 --> 57:37.990]  Looking forward to, uh, two years from now.
[57:39.030 --> 57:39.350]  Yeah.
[57:39.650 --> 57:39.790]  Yeah.
[57:39.990 --> 57:41.150]  We'll have to figure out what to call that one.
[57:41.750 --> 57:43.250]  Again, thanks everybody who made it possible.
[57:43.670 --> 57:45.590]  Write to us at, uh, what is it, Mike?
[57:45.930 --> 57:48.550]  5H-post Yeah.
[57:48.790 --> 57:50.310]  At 2600.com with your...
[57:50.310 --> 57:51.510]  But wait 24 hours.
[57:51.650 --> 57:52.390]  Wait 24 hours.
[57:52.610 --> 57:56.470]  Uh, let us know your, what happened with, uh, with you at the conference.
[57:56.630 --> 57:59.110]  Any kind of like, uh, you know, observations, things like that.
[57:59.450 --> 58:00.490]  Pictures, whatnot.
[58:00.710 --> 58:02.830]  And we're going to put it all up on the website real soon.
[58:03.150 --> 58:04.670]  Until then, Emmanuel Goldstein, have a good night.
[58:04.850 --> 58:05.550]  Are you united?
[58:07.950 --> 58:08.610]  Be divided.
[58:09.670 --> 58:10.610]  Is the case?
[58:11.370 --> 58:12.230]  Are you united?
[58:12.970 --> 58:15.650]  They will never Be divided
[58:22.830 --> 58:26.670]  Just take a look around you What do you see?
[58:26.930 --> 58:36.930]  Kids with feelings like you and me Understand him He'll understand you For you are him And he is you
[58:42.800 --> 58:56.280]  If the kids If the kids Are united They will never Be divided If the kids Are united They will never Be divided
[59:23.500 --> 59:34.700]  If the kids Are united They will never Be divided If the kids Are united And this is
[59:43.380 --> 59:44.200]  the second one.
[59:44.200 --> 59:45.680]  And this is the second one.