[00:00.880 --> 00:08.400]  The Federation of Church and States Executive Director, Barry Lynn, says the initiative violates constitutional barriers.
[00:08.560 --> 00:11.260]  Lynn cites a speech Bush gave in New Orleans.
[00:11.460 --> 00:18.620]  Where he said that he wanted to fund programs that saved Americans one soul at a time.
[00:18.960 --> 00:20.440]  One soul at a time.
[00:20.600 --> 00:23.020]  I mean, does he think he's the theologian in chief?
[00:23.240 --> 00:30.150]  But now he seems to feel that it is his responsibility to save the souls of Americans using tax dollars.
[00:30.150 --> 00:33.440]  And in that same speech, he picked up a Bible.
[00:33.480 --> 00:40.800]  And he said, this is the rule book that these groups, meaning the groups that were receiving money from the faith-based initiative, should follow.
[00:40.800 --> 00:43.180]  That they didn't have to worry about government rules.
[00:43.500 --> 00:59.300]  In addition to the White House office, Centers for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives have been placed by executive order in nine federal government departments, including the Departments of Education, Justice, Labor, and Agency for International Development.
[00:59.300 --> 01:02.880]  States are also encouraged to set up their own offices.
[01:03.500 --> 01:06.740]  AU's Lynn gives his version of the meaning behind the initiative.
[01:07.310 --> 01:13.740]  Increasingly, they become hostile to almost any group that is not clearly in line with kind of evangelical Christian principles.
[01:14.070 --> 01:20.070]  Other critics say the initiative is part of a larger effort to privatize services and shrink the government.
[01:20.070 --> 01:27.840]  Or that it is aimed at voters, reinforcing Bush's core constituency while hoping to broaden appeal to African-American voters.
[01:28.070 --> 01:33.820]  For Free Speech Radio News, in collaboration with Anastasia Gnezdytskaya, I am Jenny Johnson.
[01:34.160 --> 01:39.010]  And this is radio station WBAI New York, where it's two minutes after seven o'clock.
[01:39.860 --> 01:40.860]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:44.240 --> 02:05.940]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would But if they could, they would But if they'd bump, they'd best expect the worst I hope that's understood But if they'd bump
[02:11.400 --> 02:12.620]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:12.620 --> 02:13.540]  All right, the program's Off the Hook.
[02:14.080 --> 02:16.740]  Manuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday night.
[02:16.940 --> 02:23.120]  I want to start off by, first of all, thanking a whole lot of people for the support that they've shown over the past...
[02:23.120 --> 02:24.580]  Well, I guess it's been a week now.
[02:25.500 --> 02:38.420]  In case you didn't hear, I got swept up in the, what was it, 1,821 people that were arrested last week, Tuesday night is when it all started.
[02:38.420 --> 02:41.600]  And this is kind of, this is kind of what it sounded like.
[02:42.380 --> 02:48.420]  All right, this is Union Square Park, where people are chanting, go home, George Bush has got to go, or something like that.
[02:48.820 --> 02:55.920]  And then there was this amazing band, this amazing marching band that just sort of took up the sound and started marching all around.
[02:56.780 --> 02:58.320]  And, and, and they were really great.
[02:58.480 --> 02:59.040]  They were amazing.
[03:02.060 --> 03:10.020]  And all these people started to, um, to follow them, uh, up the, um, east, uh, east side of, uh, Park Avenue.
[03:10.220 --> 03:11.900]  Is it called Park Avenue when it's next to Union Square?
[03:11.980 --> 03:14.200]  I don't know, but it's, it's that road that turns into Park Avenue.
[03:15.960 --> 03:21.660]  And, and what happened was, um, people basically started to, uh, follow this band.
[03:22.980 --> 03:28.580]  Now, I had been in Union Square Park, uh, pretty much, uh, for, uh, I guess an hour and a half or so.
[03:28.660 --> 03:35.240]  I had been at World Trade Center, uh, covering a, uh, a march by War Resisters League.
[03:36.280 --> 03:40.260]  Apparently they were going to march up to the Garden by way of Union Square.
[03:42.200 --> 03:43.540]  I just want to take in this sound.
[03:43.640 --> 03:44.440]  It's bringing back such memories.
[03:56.460 --> 04:04.940]  And, um, I had been down there at, uh, at, um, World Trade Center, um, just basically videoing and, and, uh, getting sound and things like that.
[04:05.320 --> 04:14.020]  And when the march was about to take off, when people were about to start walking up the sidewalk, I, uh, I, I figured, you know, I'm going to meet these people up at, uh, Union Square.
[04:14.460 --> 04:17.160]  Because they're marching up Broadway, uh, on the sidewalk.
[04:17.320 --> 04:18.060]  They're only marching in the street.
[04:18.200 --> 04:19.020]  They're marching on the sidewalk.
[04:19.020 --> 04:24.020]  And it just seemed very, um, I don't want to say boring, but just very, uh, well-planned.
[04:24.320 --> 04:32.580]  Uh, that, uh, you know, nothing, nothing was, uh, really going to, uh, happen as far as, um, uh, conflict or anything like that.
[04:33.040 --> 04:38.700]  Uh, it's basically just, it was just going to be, uh, a calm, orderly procession up the sidewalk.
[04:39.100 --> 04:41.520]  Up until, uh, Union Square and then Madison Square Garden.
[04:41.660 --> 04:43.840]  So I hopped on the subway and went up to Union Square.
[04:43.860 --> 04:47.240]  It wasn't until much later that I found out that all of those people were arrested.
[04:47.240 --> 04:50.540]  All those people were arrested shortly after the march started.
[04:50.700 --> 04:54.480]  And in rather bizarre ways, uh, they were led by the police.
[04:54.680 --> 04:56.740]  They were told to, to stay on the sidewalk.
[04:57.040 --> 04:58.500]  They were told, uh, where to cross.
[04:58.620 --> 05:01.180]  They were told what side street to go down.
[05:01.320 --> 05:04.200]  And as soon as they went down that side street, the side street was surrounded.
[05:04.200 --> 05:06.700]  And everybody on the side street was arrested.
[05:07.020 --> 05:14.220]  It sounds so bizarre and so crazy, and I wouldn't have believed it, except I was about to see it for myself up at Union Square.
[05:15.060 --> 05:22.540]  Once people started to follow the band, it in turn was directed down 16th Street.
[05:22.760 --> 05:26.480]  16th Street between Union Square and Irving Place.
[05:27.420 --> 05:32.440]  And this is where things started to get kind of weird and crazy.
[05:33.300 --> 05:41.040]  The band and people marched down the street, and police didn't seem to be able to stop.
[05:41.160 --> 05:42.160]  I mean, there were police everywhere.
[05:42.300 --> 05:44.020]  There were police all around Union Square.
[05:44.180 --> 05:47.960]  It's amazing to me that they weren't able to prevent this thing from happening in the first place.
[05:47.960 --> 05:54.200]  But it went along up 16th Street, and that's where the police decided to block it with their scooters.
[05:54.580 --> 06:01.360]  They blocked 16th Street right at Irving Place, and nobody was able to get past at that point.
[06:01.360 --> 06:04.700]  Now, what happened then was rather interesting.
[06:04.920 --> 06:14.220]  This is the first of three opportunities, I'm going to put that in quotes, to leave for the media, for press.
[06:14.220 --> 06:16.840]  Now, this is what the first one sounded like.
[06:16.900 --> 06:27.380]  This is as soon as people, or as soon as I, reached 16th Street and Irving Place, that's when that orange netting was rolled out.
[06:27.480 --> 06:35.660]  The police this year discovered that they could use this construction netting that we've seen for years to actually pan in protesters.
[06:35.660 --> 06:41.720]  So, that's what was seen all over the place in the city this past week.
[06:41.880 --> 06:50.480]  So, this is what happened when the netting was unraveled, and the press was given an opportunity to leave.
[06:51.840 --> 06:53.000]  And the netting is out.
[06:53.220 --> 06:54.280]  Put up the net, you can't get out.
[06:54.400 --> 06:54.660]  Let's go.
[06:54.800 --> 06:56.260]  From the press, let's go.
[06:56.400 --> 06:56.760]  Get out.
[06:57.220 --> 06:58.320]  From the press, get out.
[07:01.580 --> 07:03.540]  They didn't give us much time, did they?
[07:05.420 --> 07:10.500]  We had about three seconds to get out if we were the press, and nobody could move that fast.
[07:15.870 --> 07:17.690]  And that's, in fact, the case.
[07:18.010 --> 07:23.590]  What happened was, the netting was laid out, and that cop, as you heard, said, press, get out.
[07:23.650 --> 07:27.850]  But then he turned around and left immediately, and the video caught this.
[07:28.050 --> 07:32.010]  Nobody was able to leave because the netting was completely covering the street.
[07:32.010 --> 07:37.110]  And I saw one member of the press trying to get in, and she was turned away.
[07:37.890 --> 07:41.110]  But nobody was able to get out because it just happened so fast.
[07:41.490 --> 07:49.550]  And there was no warning that something else was going to be happening, that there was going to be arrest or anything like that, or not even an order to disperse.
[07:49.610 --> 07:53.210]  There was never an order to disperse, not at World Trade Center, not at 16th Street.
[07:53.210 --> 08:02.130]  So a little later on, maybe about ten minutes in, was another offer given to members of the media.
[08:02.310 --> 08:05.950]  This was when it became apparent that arrests were going to be made.
[08:06.470 --> 08:09.110]  People were corralled onto the sidewalks.
[08:09.170 --> 08:12.570]  The police took over the street, and everybody else was on the sidewalk.
[08:12.830 --> 08:18.530]  At this point, the other side of 16th Street was also blocked, so people could not go either direction.
[08:18.530 --> 08:20.590]  They were kind of just pushed back onto the sidewalk.
[08:20.850 --> 08:25.990]  And that's when the next offer for press people to leave was made.
[08:26.090 --> 08:29.870]  And I decided this is a good opportunity to take advantage of that.
[08:29.990 --> 08:31.230]  I had IndyMedia credentials.
[08:31.230 --> 08:37.150]  I did not have the NYPD credentials because, quite frankly, I don't qualify for it.
[08:37.230 --> 08:38.210]  I can't get that.
[08:38.430 --> 08:40.730]  Most people who are journalists cannot get that.
[08:40.730 --> 08:50.470]  There are all kinds of requirements, all kinds of ridiculous things that you have to prove and demonstrate that simply is not possible for anything other than the corporate media.
[08:50.730 --> 08:53.730]  And we can go into that a little later, if we must.
[08:55.050 --> 08:56.510]  It's kind of a catch-22.
[08:56.730 --> 08:59.330]  Anyway, this is what happened during the second opportunity.
[09:01.110 --> 09:04.810]  All right, I'm going to attempt to use my IndyMedia press credentials to get the hell out of here.
[09:16.750 --> 09:17.870]  Back in.
[09:18.710 --> 09:19.810]  Back in.
[09:20.470 --> 09:21.630]  Back in.
[09:23.030 --> 09:23.590]  Back in.
[09:23.590 --> 09:24.130]  Back in.
[09:24.330 --> 09:24.930]  You said press.
[09:25.330 --> 09:26.030]  You're not press.
[09:26.250 --> 09:26.550]  Back in.
[09:26.870 --> 09:27.630]  I work for a radio station.
[09:27.630 --> 09:28.390]  Back in.
[09:29.610 --> 09:30.610]  Back in.
[09:32.690 --> 09:33.630]  What do you call this?
[09:33.630 --> 09:35.110]  Are you arresting eyewitnesses as well?
[09:35.230 --> 09:35.910]  Okay, we're not press.
[09:36.030 --> 09:36.590]  We just found out.
[09:38.490 --> 09:44.190]  Now, what's interesting there is you heard that guy saying back in, you're not press.
[09:44.470 --> 09:46.050]  He didn't even look at anything.
[09:46.210 --> 09:49.530]  He didn't give anybody the opportunity to present ID of any sort.
[09:49.690 --> 09:51.770]  He was basically judging people by the way they looked.
[09:52.490 --> 09:53.050]  All right?
[09:53.250 --> 09:54.310]  You're not press.
[09:54.570 --> 09:55.830]  He could tell that just by looking at me.
[09:55.930 --> 09:56.530]  I'm not press.
[09:56.690 --> 09:56.930]  Wow.
[09:57.350 --> 09:59.590]  Well, gee whiz, I wonder what else he can tell about me.
[10:01.750 --> 10:04.950]  It was shortly after that that I filed a report here on this radio station.
[10:05.150 --> 10:09.150]  I don't know if I was press when I did that or not, but it got out.
[10:09.830 --> 10:14.590]  All right, here's the last actual offer.
[10:15.530 --> 10:17.610]  This was probably the most direct one.
[10:17.810 --> 10:20.630]  This is where I actually had a conversation with somebody.
[10:21.390 --> 10:25.770]  And he asked if I had that magic card that the corporate media gets.
[10:25.870 --> 10:29.050]  And, of course, I don't have that kind of card because it's impossible for us to get that.
[10:29.170 --> 10:30.570]  We've tried.
[10:30.570 --> 10:35.990]  In fact, John Young from Cryptom.org, if anybody should get a press card, it's that guy.
[10:36.290 --> 10:40.470]  He was rejected because... I guess because he...
[10:40.470 --> 10:41.850]  All kinds of ridiculous reasons.
[10:42.190 --> 10:47.010]  You have to demonstrate the ability to... or the need to be behind police lines.
[10:47.250 --> 10:49.130]  Now, how do you demonstrate that?
[10:49.350 --> 10:53.350]  How do you demonstrate that, especially when you weren't behind the police line at the time?
[10:53.350 --> 10:57.810]  Well, we can go on about this for hours, the ridiculousness of that particular requirement.
[10:58.190 --> 11:06.130]  In any event, here's the final exchange between the police and myself as far as getting out of there.
[11:07.090 --> 11:09.310]  Is there anybody else here with NYPD credentials?
[11:09.510 --> 11:09.690]  It's you.
[11:09.810 --> 11:10.330]  Step forward.
[11:10.670 --> 11:11.710]  You should have listened to the police.
[11:13.290 --> 11:13.690]  What?
[11:14.270 --> 11:17.010]  Do you have credentials, sir?
[11:17.210 --> 11:19.830]  If you have credentials, I can move you to a press area.
[11:20.210 --> 11:20.950]  Okay, thank you.
[11:21.050 --> 11:22.010]  I'd appreciate that.
[11:22.430 --> 11:23.370]  That is not valid.
[11:23.570 --> 11:24.110]  The first credential.
[11:24.230 --> 11:25.730]  My company is recognized by...
[11:25.730 --> 11:29.010]  Professor Pretorio, if you can share my credentials, I will move you to a press area.
[11:29.990 --> 11:30.970]  You have nothing.
[11:32.850 --> 11:34.950]  You have nothing to show me that you are left looking at press?
[11:35.030 --> 11:35.750]  I have a credential.
[11:36.030 --> 11:39.830]  If you show it to me, I will gladly let you go to a press area.
[11:40.350 --> 11:41.330]  You can take this...
[11:41.330 --> 11:45.150]  ... belt...
[11:45.150 --> 11:46.390]  Sit down...
[11:48.230 --> 11:48.590]  Erstаст...
[11:48.590 --> 11:49.090]  Sit down.
[11:49.630 --> 11:51.010]  Everybody, sit down.
[11:53.710 --> 11:55.010]  Everybody, sit down.
[11:55.270 --> 11:57.470]  Step up, step up.
[12:01.550 --> 12:02.070]  Everybody,
[12:05.670 --> 12:05.970]  sit down.
[12:06.810 --> 12:09.570]  Sit down, sir.
[12:14.190 --> 12:15.470]  They're holding us hostage.
[12:15.990 --> 12:18.070]  They didn't give us any way out of here.
[12:18.590 --> 12:21.730]  They're excusing to accept any kind of ID as press.
[12:22.850 --> 12:26.030]  And they're throwing people face-first down on the ground.
[12:28.290 --> 12:29.490]  I'm a member of the media.
[12:29.590 --> 12:30.870]  I've got media credentials.
[12:31.590 --> 12:33.830]  Who do you work for?
[12:34.130 --> 12:35.190]  WBAI and Indy Media.
[12:35.470 --> 12:37.010]  Do you have an NYPD press card?
[12:37.290 --> 12:37.310]  No.
[12:37.670 --> 12:37.930]  Sorry.
[12:39.930 --> 12:41.530]  Well, I'm not media, apparently.
[12:42.910 --> 12:44.370]  I'm standing on a sidewalk.
[12:44.570 --> 12:45.770]  They won't let me leave the sidewalk.
[12:45.770 --> 12:47.350]  I'm not even blocking a street.
[12:49.450 --> 12:54.990]  And it was, I guess, right about then that the gravity of the situation started to become apparent.
[12:55.690 --> 12:58.470]  And I've got to tell you, it was pretty upsetting.
[12:59.170 --> 13:01.910]  That's about when I filed the report on WBA.
[13:01.910 --> 13:07.010]  I want to play that only because that kind of sums up things and will save me the time of having to sum it up all over again.
[13:07.930 --> 13:11.650]  And then we'll talk to some other people that were down there as well.
[13:11.650 --> 13:19.550]  And if you were down there, if you were one of the 1800 plus that wound up in the pier or in the tombs, I'd also like to hear from you tonight.
[13:19.850 --> 13:29.790]  Because I know this is important to discuss this event, discuss what happened to us, and basically come together in that sense.
[13:31.030 --> 13:34.490]  I find it to be very healing to be able to talk to other people who were through this.
[13:34.490 --> 13:38.350]  And it certainly was a traumatic event for many of us.
[13:38.630 --> 13:43.490]  All right, this is how it sounded on WBAI on that evening, August 31st.
[13:44.490 --> 13:53.410]  And when Bill Clinton, in his 1992 presidential campaign, faced a critical cash problem...
[13:55.590 --> 13:59.830]  We are going to break in here for just a minute for some breaking news.
[14:00.430 --> 14:04.290]  David Okuto will be speaking with Emanuel Goldstein.
[14:04.970 --> 14:12.230]  Yes, we've got lots of reports from police actions, police melees, so to speak, throughout town.
[14:12.370 --> 14:13.610]  Emanuel, are you with us?
[14:14.070 --> 14:15.170]  Yeah, I am right now.
[14:15.370 --> 14:25.270]  What happened was about 45 minutes ago, a boisterous crowd of a few hundred people broke away from Union Square and started marching down 16th Street, apparently catching the cops unawares.
[14:25.910 --> 14:29.330]  They scrambled, set up a bunch of motorcycles to block the road.
[14:29.790 --> 14:34.270]  And then they proceeded to pan everybody in, including those people like me who are on the sidewalk.
[14:34.970 --> 14:36.970]  We were given no opportunity to leave.
[14:37.710 --> 14:43.150]  They shouted obscenities at us for not leaving when we had the chance, whenever that was.
[14:43.150 --> 14:49.290]  When I showed them my media press credentials, they said that's not press, that's not media.
[14:50.010 --> 14:58.030]  And they've been jumping into the crowd, grabbing people at random, it seems, throwing them face down on the ground, people who are not resisting, and hauling them away.
[14:58.130 --> 15:03.430]  And right now, there are hundreds of us just waiting for whatever happens next.
[15:04.190 --> 15:06.790]  Emanuel, what street, what corner are you on?
[15:06.790 --> 15:10.450]  This is on 16th Street, just of Union Square.
[15:11.350 --> 15:13.770]  And are you essentially penned?
[15:13.850 --> 15:16.490]  Can you move, get out of that area?
[15:16.790 --> 15:18.330]  I've tried to leave several times.
[15:18.330 --> 15:24.330]  I've said on media, I have a video camera, I have a tape recorder, I have credentials, media credentials.
[15:24.930 --> 15:27.510]  They say none of that is valid, and I have to stay here.
[15:27.590 --> 15:28.750]  Basically, I'm being held hostage.
[15:28.750 --> 15:36.670]  I'm walking on a city sidewalk, being told that I can't leave, and that I have to be arrested now, because I'm on this sidewalk.
[15:36.830 --> 15:38.110]  I never even set foot into the street.
[15:38.230 --> 15:39.410]  That's the incredible part.
[15:39.730 --> 15:43.330]  Could you take a guess as to how many people are entrapped at this point?
[15:45.330 --> 15:47.630]  It's hard to say, because they forced us all to sit down.
[15:47.770 --> 15:49.830]  Of course, I don't know what would happen if I disobeyed them at this point.
[15:50.630 --> 15:53.230]  But they're asking us all to sit down, or telling us, rather, to sit down.
[15:54.030 --> 15:56.530]  I would estimate there are several hundred people still on this block.
[15:56.530 --> 15:58.750]  There were many more a half-hour ago.
[15:59.890 --> 16:01.410]  Quite a few have been arrested already.
[16:01.850 --> 16:03.810]  I don't know what's happening anywhere else.
[16:04.150 --> 16:05.730]  They've done a good job of isolating us.
[16:05.890 --> 16:07.890]  Yeah, I've gotten reports in the newsroom.
[16:08.150 --> 16:16.410]  At Herald Square, numbers of people have been pepper sprayed and put into police vans at this moment at Herald Square.
[16:16.730 --> 16:20.430]  Has there been use of any pepper spray or anything else where you are?
[16:20.690 --> 16:23.590]  Yes, we have pepper spray on the south side of the street.
[16:23.610 --> 16:25.690]  I'm on the north side of the street, so I'm fairly lucky.
[16:25.690 --> 16:27.550]  But they were using pepper spray.
[16:27.730 --> 16:28.690]  And it was very bizarre.
[16:28.830 --> 16:30.950]  There was one person with a big chaining mask.
[16:31.170 --> 16:35.250]  The police lunged at him, and apparently were just going to throw him down, too.
[16:35.670 --> 16:38.910]  But a bunch of protesters surrounded him and said that he wasn't doing anything wrong.
[16:38.910 --> 16:39.850]  He was just standing there.
[16:40.030 --> 16:45.350]  And I guess the sheer mass of people who were doing that was enough to get the cops to back off.
[16:45.730 --> 16:48.970]  So he was very surprised and grateful that that happened.
[16:48.970 --> 16:51.310]  Of course, it may just be a temporary reprieve.
[16:51.660 --> 16:52.690]  We're all still here.
[16:53.550 --> 17:01.770]  And are you being guarded by numerous police or restrained by physical barriers?
[17:02.270 --> 17:04.630]  We're being restrained by physical police right now.
[17:04.750 --> 17:06.210]  They're surrounding us on all corners.
[17:06.410 --> 17:07.910]  They're even up on top of the buildings.
[17:07.910 --> 17:11.130]  I don't know what they think we're going to do, if we're going to fly out of here or something.
[17:11.170 --> 17:12.370]  But they're looking down on us.
[17:14.150 --> 17:18.310]  Basically, this is a complete overreaction to a situation of people simply walking down the street.
[17:18.310 --> 17:23.490]  People would have dispersed normally and the street is completely blocked off now because of all the police.
[17:23.830 --> 17:26.710]  I don't understand the mentality behind this at all.
[17:26.950 --> 17:34.290]  It was just kind of a celebration, people chanting and drums beating and reporters running alongside recording it all.
[17:34.630 --> 17:38.330]  And then all of a sudden, they just decided to do this to us.
[17:38.450 --> 17:39.890]  I don't understand it.
[17:40.170 --> 17:42.610]  Do you have any legal observers on site?
[17:43.550 --> 17:45.790]  I don't see the fluorescent green hats.
[17:45.790 --> 17:46.990]  I'm sure they're around someplace.
[17:48.630 --> 17:51.390]  I'm confident we'll be looked after and there's a lot of friendly people here.
[17:51.430 --> 17:52.410]  So I'm not worried about that.
[17:52.590 --> 17:55.510]  I am worried about being grabbed and drunk face first down on the ground.
[17:55.630 --> 17:56.330]  That's not very nice.
[17:56.510 --> 17:57.650]  I don't know why they're doing that.
[17:57.730 --> 17:58.390]  There's no reason to.
[17:58.890 --> 17:59.150]  Yes.
[17:59.390 --> 18:06.550]  And are you able to just have any kind of communication with any of the officers there?
[18:06.670 --> 18:09.470]  Is there any way to open up dialogue at all?
[18:09.930 --> 18:11.810]  They just basically stare straight ahead.
[18:11.890 --> 18:16.470]  A number of people have tried to engage them in dialogue, but the most they'll say is that they're just following orders.
[18:16.790 --> 18:25.510]  I don't think it's the exact word, but that's pretty much the mindset of what they're saying right now, that they're just doing what they're told to do.
[18:25.850 --> 18:33.790]  The thing is, you know, they look rather friendly when they're just staring at you, but when they go into motion, all of a sudden something comes over them and they just kind of...
[18:34.510 --> 18:36.350]  They just get really, really aggressive.
[18:36.350 --> 18:37.150]  They grab people.
[18:37.290 --> 18:38.230]  They throw them down.
[18:38.790 --> 18:41.190]  It's a real transition and very frightening to see.
[18:41.830 --> 18:44.750]  And are there any injuries at this point?
[18:44.770 --> 18:48.910]  You said some people have been handled rather terribly at this point.
[18:48.910 --> 18:50.990]  Do you know if anybody's in need of medical attention?
[18:51.250 --> 18:54.190]  I can't imagine people not being injured after seeing what happened to them.
[18:54.330 --> 18:57.830]  Of course, once they're injured, they're taken away, so I don't know how badly they're injured.
[18:58.270 --> 18:59.710]  But it didn't look very good.
[18:59.830 --> 19:05.390]  They're surrounded by police when they're thrown to the ground, and then we don't see them anymore after that.
[19:05.390 --> 19:12.230]  Oh, so they are taken, and you don't know if they're being taken to medical, any kind of ambulance.
[19:12.230 --> 19:15.150]  They were just put in the police vans, as far as you could tell?
[19:15.370 --> 19:17.410]  I haven't seen what they're being taken away in.
[19:17.490 --> 19:21.270]  As far as I know, they're being hustled down to the end of the block, and then something happens to them there.
[19:21.350 --> 19:22.150]  That's out of our sight.
[19:22.330 --> 19:27.690]  Yeah, in Herald Square, the pepper sprayed victims are being placed in the vans without any water.
[19:27.690 --> 19:33.850]  So whatever water the folks who are being placed in the vans may have is all they have with them.
[19:34.810 --> 19:38.670]  Is there anyone else there, or anything you would like to add at this point?
[19:40.250 --> 19:46.290]  Just that there's a lot of people here, and we could really use support, I guess, from the rest of the city.
[19:46.630 --> 19:47.930]  These people weren't doing anything.
[19:48.070 --> 19:51.590]  They were simply marching down the street, chanting, banging drums.
[19:51.610 --> 19:52.590]  It was no big deal.
[19:52.590 --> 19:58.370]  And I was thinking the police were doing a good job making the situation go peacefully.
[19:58.370 --> 20:00.090]  They were up until that point, for the most part.
[20:00.650 --> 20:02.290]  But this is a complete overreaction.
[20:02.510 --> 20:03.430]  A complete overreaction.
[20:03.470 --> 20:04.910]  And I don't know what they helped to gain from it.
[20:05.130 --> 20:08.530]  They've blocked the traffic far worse than the demonstrators ever could have.
[20:08.870 --> 20:10.110]  They've scared a lot of people.
[20:10.110 --> 20:15.270]  They're going to be processing hundreds and hundreds of people for many hours to come.
[20:15.390 --> 20:15.790]  Yes.
[20:16.010 --> 20:17.210]  It makes no sense.
[20:17.210 --> 20:37.710]  Well, yeah, you can only surmise that it's just intimidation and harassment because I think they do realize that there are very many people who are willing to get as close as they could possibly get to the garden to express their outrage at this situation that the Republicans have imposed on the city and the country and the world.
[20:37.930 --> 20:41.750]  So I think we can read as to why it's happening.
[20:41.750 --> 20:51.170]  The question is, why aren't there enough officers who will see through it and be more, in a human fashion, responding to the protesters?
[20:51.250 --> 20:55.050]  Is there anyone else there you would like to get on the phone, or should we sign off right now, Emmanuel?
[20:55.790 --> 20:57.810]  I think I probably should go.
[20:57.930 --> 20:59.430]  I don't really know any of these people.
[21:00.310 --> 21:03.470]  And they all seem to be rather concerned with their well-being right now.
[21:03.490 --> 21:06.610]  I don't want to burden them any further by putting them on a radio station.
[21:06.730 --> 21:08.770]  But I'll try to stay in touch.
[21:08.770 --> 21:10.730]  I have two phones.
[21:10.730 --> 21:14.630]  One of them I'm hiding on my person, so hopefully they won't find that one.
[21:14.910 --> 21:15.230]  Okay.
[21:15.230 --> 21:17.910]  But I'll try to continue to communicate throughout the night if it's possible.
[21:18.210 --> 21:18.730]  Okay, great.
[21:18.730 --> 21:20.870]  You have the newsroom number, correct?
[21:22.570 --> 21:24.710]  I don't, but next can probably give it to me.
[21:24.950 --> 21:25.570]  Okay, great.
[21:25.730 --> 21:26.930]  Hang on, Emmanuel.
[21:27.170 --> 21:29.470]  And we'll sign off, but we'll stay on.
[21:29.530 --> 21:30.570]  We'll speak to you off air.
[21:31.090 --> 21:31.570]  Thanks.
[21:31.850 --> 21:32.190]  Thank you.
[21:32.450 --> 21:33.130]  Yes, thank you.
[21:33.130 --> 21:35.550]  And stay tuned for more breaking news.
[21:40.730 --> 21:41.210]  One week ago.
[21:41.490 --> 21:42.450]  One week and a day ago.
[21:43.270 --> 21:53.470]  From that point, what they did was, after we were sitting on the street for, I guess, a couple of hours, which is kind of difficult to do when you've got your hands tied tightly behind your back.
[21:54.330 --> 21:57.970]  They put us on, this is interesting, a borrowed city bus.
[21:58.510 --> 22:02.790]  Yeah, it wasn't one of those NYPD buses, it was a real city bus, real MTA bus.
[22:02.850 --> 22:08.470]  And it said on the front, emergency, call police, in that little flashing sign.
[22:08.750 --> 22:15.350]  I don't know when you would actually call the police when you saw a bus that said that, but maybe if the bus was stolen or something, it says that, I don't know.
[22:15.350 --> 22:27.190]  So, in any event, we were all loaded onto that bus and driven over to Pier 57, over on the Hudson River, where we spent the next 12 hours or so.
[22:27.370 --> 22:41.970]  And, you know, I gotta say, it was very nice being with a thousand other people that were keeping each other strong, taking care of each other, looking out for each other's needs, cheering every time a new busload of people came.
[22:41.970 --> 22:54.870]  I gotta tell you, that in itself was just an amazing thing right there, to get off the bus in this huge building, seeing lines and lines of people waiting for something we didn't know what.
[22:55.370 --> 22:59.170]  And the first thing that happens when we get off are people cheering us.
[23:00.050 --> 23:11.230]  It just turned what could have been a nightmarish situation into just a pretty damn unpleasant one, but certainly made all the difference, and that's what made all those hours go by.
[23:11.230 --> 23:17.610]  Now, of course, the 12 hours at Pier 57 were just the beginning, and we had no idea what was ahead of us.
[23:17.690 --> 23:22.310]  And that was, I guess, part of the theme of this whole thing was that they wouldn't tell you what was going to happen next, or they'd lie to you.
[23:22.390 --> 23:25.330]  They'd say all kinds of things that simply were not true.
[23:28.430 --> 23:36.230]  And that after a while, at first it was funny, but after a while it really got under your skin, because you have to ask yourself, well, when am I going to get out of here?
[23:36.330 --> 23:38.170]  I've been in over a day, you know?
[23:38.290 --> 23:41.010]  And some people are saying you won't get out until the weekend.
[23:41.130 --> 23:42.850]  Some people are saying whenever we feel like letting you out.
[23:42.910 --> 23:45.090]  Some people are saying, oh, you'll be out in an hour.
[23:46.670 --> 23:49.970]  After a while, it just kind of really gets to you.
[23:50.150 --> 23:51.970]  And a lot of people were reacting in very bad ways.
[23:52.050 --> 24:02.890]  And, of course, we didn't have access to things that people should have access to, things like food, things like adequate restroom facilities, things like a lawyer, perhaps.
[24:03.510 --> 24:03.870]  None of that.
[24:03.950 --> 24:06.150]  People were asking the police for legal advice.
[24:06.930 --> 24:13.590]  They were asking the cops for legal advice because there was nobody else to ask, and nobody there knew exactly what was going to happen.
[24:14.370 --> 24:17.070]  Sure, there were a couple of people who had knowledge.
[24:17.370 --> 24:21.330]  In fact, they even arrested some National Lawyers Guild people with the fluorescent green hats.
[24:22.970 --> 24:25.070]  But not everybody had that information.
[24:25.870 --> 24:28.530]  And there were all kinds of abuses of your rights.
[24:28.590 --> 24:30.370]  You know, I was never even told I was arrested.
[24:31.490 --> 24:32.690]  That was never even said to me.
[24:32.770 --> 24:34.430]  And, of course, I never got my Miranda rights.
[24:34.470 --> 24:36.670]  I think that's sort of out of fashion now anyway.
[24:37.690 --> 24:43.250]  The only formality that I ever got was the fingerprint machine.
[24:43.370 --> 24:45.630]  And, oh, God, that fingerprint machine is...
[24:45.630 --> 24:47.990]  For anyone who was through it, you know what a nightmare it is.
[24:48.150 --> 24:50.390]  It takes about 20 minutes for them to get all of your fingers.
[24:50.390 --> 24:53.970]  And the machine keeps rejecting fingers and detecting things that aren't there.
[24:54.110 --> 25:01.970]  And the cop that's doing it, the cop that's holding your hand and pressing it onto this machine, is getting pissed off at you for the machine not working.
[25:01.970 --> 25:05.670]  You know, I mean, there's just so many ways you can press your thumb down on a machine.
[25:06.450 --> 25:08.330]  You know, you can't really get that wrong.
[25:08.690 --> 25:11.430]  But they treat you like you're doing something wrong.
[25:11.530 --> 25:12.490]  And I think that's sort of the theme.
[25:12.590 --> 25:14.350]  No matter what, you're doing something wrong.
[25:14.430 --> 25:18.510]  They make you empty all of the things in your pocket onto the ground.
[25:18.890 --> 25:20.590]  And then they tell you to get moving.
[25:20.710 --> 25:22.730]  Of course, you have to pick the stuff up off the ground.
[25:22.730 --> 25:25.230]  And they yell at you for not moving when they say to move.
[25:25.550 --> 25:28.350]  You know, it's degrading.
[25:28.510 --> 25:33.190]  And I see people being, you know, starting to lose their confidence.
[25:33.430 --> 25:37.190]  Starting to act the way they want you to act.
[25:38.150 --> 25:42.570]  And the whole thing really is just very annoying and angering.
[25:42.670 --> 25:48.250]  And it still hasn't completely left my system.
[25:48.630 --> 25:51.670]  And I've heard from a number of people who are feeling all kinds of things.
[25:51.670 --> 26:00.710]  At first, my initial reaction after getting out of there on Thursday morning was kind of just a stunned disbelief.
[26:01.110 --> 26:03.050]  Just not knowing where to go next.
[26:03.370 --> 26:08.250]  Of course, where I had to go next was another line where I had to wait two and a half hours to get my possessions back.
[26:08.390 --> 26:09.550]  Fortunately, I did get them back.
[26:09.670 --> 26:14.610]  But after that, just kind of like wandering around the city, taking in things.
[26:14.730 --> 26:17.330]  I mean, yeah, I was only in there for, you know, less than two days.
[26:17.490 --> 26:20.650]  But it still is a very traumatizing experience.
[26:20.650 --> 26:24.350]  You can't forget that there are people in far worse conditions.
[26:24.510 --> 26:26.070]  You can't forget what happened in Russia.
[26:26.230 --> 26:29.350]  You can't forget people that are in prison for a very long period of time.
[26:29.530 --> 26:33.470]  You can't forget people that don't have the benefit of having a thousand other inmates cheering them on.
[26:34.410 --> 26:42.210]  And with all of that, with all of that in mind, to still be traumatized makes you realize what a traumatizing experience it is.
[26:42.370 --> 26:44.530]  What a traumatizing experience it's meant to be.
[26:45.030 --> 26:54.370]  And how these dehumanizing conditions are used as a weapon by these cops to put people in line.
[26:57.570 --> 26:59.930]  And it got to a lot of us.
[27:01.150 --> 27:02.650]  Of course, the story isn't over.
[27:03.030 --> 27:06.390]  We're going to be doing all kinds of things in the future with this.
[27:06.470 --> 27:09.030]  We have all kinds of evidence, all kinds of documentation.
[27:11.250 --> 27:13.210]  And legal teams are moving forward.
[27:13.590 --> 27:14.590]  And that's a good thing.
[27:14.590 --> 27:20.130]  I would like to issue, though, a challenge to anyone out there.
[27:20.210 --> 27:22.750]  First of all, I do want to hear from anybody who has swept up.
[27:22.910 --> 27:23.710]  I do want to hear from you.
[27:23.810 --> 27:27.850]  I think it's important that you express yourself and get it out.
[27:28.570 --> 27:30.470]  If not on the radio, then to somebody.
[27:31.590 --> 27:35.170]  But I'd also like to issue a challenge to cops out there.
[27:35.850 --> 27:38.430]  Now, I met a lot of cops in the past week.
[27:39.090 --> 27:41.190]  More than I think I've ever wanted to meet in my life.
[27:41.350 --> 27:43.450]  But some of them were decent people.
[27:43.450 --> 27:44.530]  Some of them were very nice.
[27:44.630 --> 27:45.550]  Some of them were sympathetic.
[27:45.910 --> 27:50.970]  Some of them would actually loosen your handcuffs when they were too tight and the blood was being cut off.
[27:51.090 --> 27:54.150]  Some of them would actually bring an aspirin to somebody whose head was splitting.
[27:54.810 --> 27:59.430]  Or some of them would actually let you use the bathroom if you couldn't hold it in any longer.
[28:00.130 --> 28:02.990]  I would say most ignored you.
[28:03.150 --> 28:05.410]  Most just simply walked on by like they didn't hear a thing.
[28:05.490 --> 28:06.910]  But there were some decent people there.
[28:07.230 --> 28:07.750]  You know what?
[28:07.770 --> 28:08.190]  I don't care.
[28:08.290 --> 28:12.110]  If you're decent or not decent or whatever you think you are, if you're a cop, I'd like to hear from you.
[28:12.110 --> 28:21.810]  I'd like to hear an explanation as to how these orders came down, to sweep people up off the street, like it's Brazil or something, where you sweep up the homeless and dump them in the ocean.
[28:22.570 --> 28:24.690]  I'd like to know, where did that come from?
[28:24.810 --> 28:34.350]  What was going through your mind when you were given these orders, when you were arresting people that absolutely you could tell were not part of something illegal?
[28:35.010 --> 28:40.090]  People walking down the street, people coming home from work, people delivering food, people trying to find the subway.
[28:40.710 --> 28:42.390]  Yes, there were demonstrators too.
[28:42.710 --> 28:44.050]  Were they violent demonstrators?
[28:44.150 --> 28:47.730]  Were they doing something illegal other than marching down the street or even a sidewalk?
[28:48.630 --> 28:49.710]  You know, I'd like to hear.
[28:49.850 --> 28:51.630]  I'd like to hear how you justify that.
[28:54.270 --> 28:54.750]  All right.
[28:55.170 --> 29:00.350]  One more thing I just want to play, and then we're going to have somebody on the phone who's been waiting.
[29:01.090 --> 29:03.950]  I was able to get a phone call out when I was in Pier 57.
[29:04.930 --> 29:06.890]  First of all, I had all kinds of things on me.
[29:08.390 --> 29:12.850]  They didn't really do a good job getting things off of our person.
[29:13.050 --> 29:20.370]  So what I figured out was that if you waited on line for the bathroom, the porta-potties that they had set up there, it was a long line.
[29:20.450 --> 29:23.470]  But if you waited on line, first of all, you could get your handcuffs clipped.
[29:23.590 --> 29:27.210]  They were the plastic kind, which I think are pretty damn uncomfortable.
[29:28.190 --> 29:29.330]  And they were very tight.
[29:30.170 --> 29:32.770]  Having them clipped alone would be a relief.
[29:33.170 --> 29:40.670]  But going into the porta-potty, I would be able to use my two phones and my camera, my digital camera, which I still had on me.
[29:40.730 --> 29:43.470]  So I was able to use all of those things.
[29:43.510 --> 29:51.010]  I made a phone call out from inside that thing to another phone of mine and just left a message.
[29:51.010 --> 29:54.010]  Now, most of it got garbled because I was using Verizon.
[29:54.750 --> 29:58.550]  And Verizon Wireless apparently doesn't penetrate prisons very well.
[29:59.110 --> 30:03.750]  But this is part of my observations at that particular point.
[30:04.970 --> 30:10.970]  New message Tuesday, August 31st, 1149 p.m.
[30:11.250 --> 30:12.370]  Hey, this is Emmanuel.
[30:12.670 --> 30:17.610]  I'm calling from the porta-potty of the detention cell, Pier 57.
[30:18.490 --> 30:28.130]  They took us here on a burner-up New York City bus, and they brought us into this huge area where there's people lined up to be processed.
[30:29.890 --> 30:33.350]  There's other people in other cells that cheer everybody who comes in.
[30:33.610 --> 30:42.770]  Then they put you in this massive room with hundreds and hundreds of people with your hands tied behind your back, excruciating.
[30:43.750 --> 30:46.850]  And the only way to get that taken care of is to wait online.
[30:48.170 --> 30:50.190]  Okay, this is where the signal kind of breaks up for a little while.
[30:51.270 --> 30:54.970]  Basically, I'm discussing what it was like to wait online and all that kind of thing.
[30:55.290 --> 30:56.550]  And what happens...
[30:57.670 --> 31:00.950]  I'm not sure if this is picked up here or a little later on.
[31:01.830 --> 31:08.170]  But what happens is this amazing cheer starts to, or chant begins, across the prison.
[31:08.310 --> 31:12.050]  And you can hear people just chanting, let us go.
[31:31.810 --> 31:40.950]  I'm going to turn my phone off, so that they and I are able to look at my phone numbers.
[31:45.700 --> 31:49.920]  Okay, and that's what that message conveyed, pretty much.
[31:50.000 --> 32:02.760]  Not anything really earth-shattering, but I was trying everything I could to get out to the outside world and to just bypass the system however they set it up.
[32:03.300 --> 32:06.360]  Now, that's actually one of the very short things.
[32:06.460 --> 32:11.860]  I was able to hold a digital camera up to that very same port-a-potty and record outside.
[32:11.860 --> 32:14.900]  And I think it captured the chant just a little bit better.
[32:15.040 --> 32:16.520]  It was pretty much done at the same time.
[32:16.540 --> 32:20.720]  You hear it starting off kind of low and then getting louder and louder.
[32:45.090 --> 32:48.510]  And there were about a thousand people chanting, let us go at that point.
[32:48.850 --> 33:05.010]  Okay, we're joined on the phone now by Shapeshifter, otherwise known as Terrence, who four years ago at the Republican Convention in 2000 was held on a half-a-million-dollar bail for walking down the street and talking on a cell phone.
[33:05.770 --> 33:06.490]  Terrence, are you with us?
[33:06.710 --> 33:07.370]  Yes, I am.
[33:07.950 --> 33:13.650]  Well, you know, it's kind of funny how four years ago it was you and this year it was me, along with a whole lot of others.
[33:14.250 --> 33:16.470]  Of course, I didn't suffer nearly as much as you did.
[33:16.470 --> 33:23.790]  You were held for almost a week and held as one of the co-conspirators, I guess, one of the masterminds behind God knows what.
[33:23.790 --> 33:25.770]  Alleged ringleader and sidekick.
[33:26.170 --> 33:26.470]  Yeah.
[33:26.930 --> 33:31.750]  The thing that's inspiring in your case was that you actually were able to win.
[33:31.950 --> 33:36.250]  You not only were able to have them drop the charges, but you were able to...
[33:36.250 --> 33:38.310]  How far did you manage to get with them?
[33:40.070 --> 33:58.490]  Well, first, my initial trial, I was convicted of two very minor charges, and since they're only misdemeanors, I was able to appeal that, and three months down the line, I was able to have a trial, and the judge threw it out before the jury could decide.
[33:59.630 --> 34:04.670]  He said that there wasn't enough evidence even to go further on, and he threw it out of court.
[34:05.690 --> 34:11.090]  He said that the prosecution's evidence was underwhelming, to say the least.
[34:12.910 --> 34:16.290]  Yeah, and certainly that's the case here as well.
[34:16.630 --> 34:16.810]  Yeah.
[34:17.030 --> 34:20.590]  Actually, I wanted to mention that I was...
[34:21.110 --> 34:31.250]  Actually, one of the many who was not convicted during the RNC trials, they arrested over 400 people, and less than 5% of people were convicted of any charges at all.
[34:32.670 --> 34:35.210]  And they're all minor charges, all misdemeanors.
[34:35.250 --> 34:44.730]  And it seems like it's the same basic tactic, just get people off the street, you know, let the convention happen, and then try to forget about it afterwards.
[34:45.010 --> 34:45.370]  Absolutely.
[34:45.650 --> 34:46.730]  I think, you know, what happened...
[34:46.730 --> 34:49.750]  Do you know how many people were arrested total for the RNC in Philadelphia?
[34:51.050 --> 34:51.490]  420.
[34:51.790 --> 34:52.230]  420.
[34:52.470 --> 34:54.010]  Well, this time it's more than double that.
[34:55.130 --> 34:56.930]  Actually, quite a bit more than that.
[34:57.830 --> 34:59.850]  But my math is off more than four times.
[35:01.010 --> 35:02.050]  My math is...
[35:02.050 --> 35:02.670]  Four times?
[35:02.830 --> 35:03.050]  Thank you.
[35:05.110 --> 35:07.570]  So I think there's going to be a bit more fallout.
[35:07.810 --> 35:08.730]  You know, I don't think...
[35:08.730 --> 35:09.470]  I don't think...
[35:09.470 --> 35:10.310]  This is a prediction.
[35:10.810 --> 35:11.830]  Take it for what it's worth.
[35:12.010 --> 35:15.090]  I don't think we're ever going to see a Republican National Convention in this city again.
[35:15.510 --> 35:16.470]  I should hope not.
[35:16.670 --> 35:19.150]  And I think this may have also been the death knell for the Olympics.
[35:19.830 --> 35:20.570]  Let's hope so.
[35:23.610 --> 35:25.770]  Anyway, Terrence, I do want to take some phone calls.
[35:25.810 --> 35:35.470]  I wanted to briefly ask you, You were involved in another project during this Republican Convention that involved monitoring the police.
[35:35.570 --> 35:36.430]  Could you tell us something about that?
[35:36.830 --> 35:45.570]  I was part of this group called the New York Comms Collective and we were sending out text message updates to protesters at the height of the protest we had.
[35:45.750 --> 35:49.570]  Over 900 people signed up to our update list.
[35:49.790 --> 35:51.450]  Including quite a number of cops, I would imagine.
[35:51.650 --> 35:52.390]  Oh, I'm sure.
[35:52.550 --> 35:54.930]  And media and a lot of protesters.
[35:56.130 --> 36:00.490]  And I was muttering, muttering, moderating police.
[36:02.490 --> 36:05.570]  You were basically listening to scanners and reporting what you were hearing.
[36:05.830 --> 36:07.070]  What were some of the things that you heard?
[36:07.450 --> 36:08.310]  Some of the things...
[36:08.310 --> 36:09.510]  Well, they were very disorganized.
[36:10.630 --> 36:14.570]  One of the things, the more interesting things, they were talking over each other a whole lot.
[36:14.610 --> 36:16.230]  So it was kind of hard to differentiate.
[36:16.230 --> 36:18.050]  The police were talking over each other?
[36:18.310 --> 36:18.490]  Yes.
[36:18.790 --> 36:22.230]  They kept on announcing that they were on the air and not saying afterwards.
[36:22.490 --> 36:29.530]  So that happened like every two or three transmissions was some lieutenant saying, this is lieutenant so-and-so on the air.
[36:31.350 --> 36:34.130]  What, they just felt the need to do a station identification or something?
[36:34.230 --> 36:37.550]  Yeah, they just were feeling lonely that day.
[36:37.630 --> 36:38.130]  I don't know.
[36:38.370 --> 36:39.750]  They weren't that busy that day.
[36:39.750 --> 36:49.850]  But the more interesting things we found on this other frequency, which was more the inspectors and the undercover cops who were dispatching the mobile field forces.
[36:49.850 --> 36:51.730]  They were following around, protesters around.
[36:51.930 --> 37:00.370]  And one of the things that they were doing is they were very nervous any time legal observers were gathering because they thought that was an indication that something was going to happen.
[37:00.370 --> 37:03.210]  So they were paying very close attention to them.
[37:03.310 --> 37:07.190]  And that's probably one of the reasons why quite a few of them got swept up.
[37:08.290 --> 37:12.070]  Were there any priceless remarks that you overheard?
[37:13.410 --> 37:19.470]  Well, there's quite a few protesters who were injured and being arrested preemptively.
[37:20.810 --> 37:23.310]  There's lots of reports of unconscious people.
[37:24.690 --> 37:29.570]  You know, no indication of how they became unconscious, but just that they were unconscious.
[37:30.750 --> 37:31.930]  But they called them people.
[37:32.030 --> 37:38.590]  When we were in the tombs, they would chain us together in groups of five to be transported from one place to another.
[37:38.710 --> 37:39.830]  And you never knew where you were.
[37:39.990 --> 37:40.850]  It was such a labyrinth.
[37:41.230 --> 37:44.190]  But basically, they would refer to us as bodies.
[37:44.490 --> 37:45.750]  They would never refer to us as people.
[37:45.910 --> 37:48.370]  Just, I got five bodies coming down the hall.
[37:48.550 --> 37:49.310]  I was like, good God.
[37:49.870 --> 37:54.250]  What a horrible way to live, to express yourself.
[37:54.250 --> 38:03.630]  And, you know, I got to say, this didn't do very much to weld citizen and police relations.
[38:03.750 --> 38:08.190]  I went out of there with a lot of bitterness, a lot of bad feelings towards them.
[38:09.050 --> 38:13.310]  Now, Redhack, you lent your scanner for this purpose.
[38:13.630 --> 38:14.390]  Yeah, I did.
[38:14.470 --> 38:20.150]  I have a ham radio that can wideband receive.
[38:20.530 --> 38:22.010]  Which you got at Dayton, I believe.
[38:22.130 --> 38:22.410]  I did.
[38:22.510 --> 38:23.570]  At Bernie S's behest.
[38:24.370 --> 38:31.430]  Just by pressing two buttons on it when you turn it on, it can do wideband reception, which, among other things, can pick up police frequencies.
[38:32.390 --> 38:35.810]  I mean, you have to know what the frequencies are, but that's pretty much public information.
[38:35.910 --> 38:36.370]  Yeah, it is.
[38:37.550 --> 38:40.790]  And I believe people were able to actually record this.
[38:41.010 --> 38:41.890]  Is that right, Terrence?
[38:42.550 --> 38:42.950]  Yeah.
[38:43.530 --> 38:47.890]  Somewhere around there's a tape of some of the recordings.
[38:48.270 --> 38:57.750]  Now, one of the classic things that I wish we got recorded was one of the police officers saying, oh, we have a protester injured, and their response was,
[39:00.950 --> 39:05.110]  you know, F-U exclamation mark them.
[39:05.710 --> 39:08.990]  So, they were injured and they were just like, well, it doesn't matter.
[39:10.130 --> 39:14.810]  You know, I saw that attitude reflected quite a bit inside the system as well.
[39:15.010 --> 39:22.350]  You know, they seem to be under the impression that people all chose to be arrested or all were out to do something bad.
[39:22.550 --> 39:30.570]  They just could not accept that, A, they made mistakes, and, B, what these people were doing was not so bad, not bad at all.
[39:32.150 --> 39:37.070]  So, Terrence, is there any risk in doing this, recording the police or monitoring the police?
[39:37.450 --> 39:40.730]  There's actually tons of people who stream it live.
[39:41.290 --> 39:43.430]  There's a couple of websites that were happening.
[39:43.590 --> 39:48.010]  I don't know the URLs offhand, but they were streaming it.
[39:48.150 --> 39:49.790]  And I don't think so.
[39:50.210 --> 39:57.150]  It's kind of, you know, if you're on the airwaves, it's kind of public information unless, you know, the military is encrypted and whatnot.
[39:58.470 --> 40:00.350]  And it's not encrypted, it's not...
[40:00.350 --> 40:05.610]  No, in New York, they were having trouble with their digital system years ago and went back to analog.
[40:06.110 --> 40:09.050]  Seeing the way they operate, I'm not surprised they were having trouble with it.
[40:09.150 --> 40:11.350]  They could not keep track of anything.
[40:11.430 --> 40:14.950]  They couldn't keep track of our stuff, of where we were, where they were.
[40:14.950 --> 40:17.370]  I saw police getting lost inside the buildings.
[40:19.010 --> 40:24.930]  You would hear these priceless conversations, like, I tried to go to the ninth floor, but the elevator doesn't go there.
[40:24.970 --> 40:25.810]  No, you can't get to nine.
[40:25.930 --> 40:28.050]  That way you have to go up to ten and then take the staircase down.
[40:29.530 --> 40:36.490]  One of the other funny things that happened on the radio is they are having such a hard time communicating to each other that they gave out their cell phone numbers.
[40:36.510 --> 40:37.470]  Oh, that's brilliant.
[40:37.750 --> 40:38.370]  Over the air.
[40:38.570 --> 40:39.290]  That's brilliant.
[40:40.570 --> 40:40.930]  Unbelievable.
[40:41.270 --> 40:41.510]  All right.
[40:42.270 --> 40:44.170]  So that's probably on the tape somewhere, too.
[40:44.950 --> 40:50.930]  Well, Terrence, listen, I want to thank you for your efforts and just for the support you showed during all the hard times.
[40:51.130 --> 40:53.350]  And anything else you want to add?
[40:53.970 --> 41:04.210]  Oh, just that one of the things that probably happened is that will come out later is that the city of New York probably has an insurance policy guarding against civil liberties violations.
[41:04.210 --> 41:13.550]  That's probably one of the reasons they felt that they had a license to go ahead and arrest people preemptively, which the city of Philadelphia had a $10 million insurance policy.
[41:14.550 --> 41:18.610]  So it will be interesting to see what comes out later on in the legal proceedings.
[41:19.070 --> 41:21.270]  I suspect their premiums may be going up.
[41:22.030 --> 41:22.570]  All right.
[41:22.690 --> 41:23.850]  Thanks again, Terrence.
[41:24.050 --> 41:24.310]  All right.
[41:24.410 --> 41:24.650]  Thank you.
[41:24.870 --> 41:26.510]  It was actually interesting to see.
[41:26.510 --> 41:33.290]  I went to a protest the day after the day after the judge made his ruling against the city.
[41:33.950 --> 41:43.250]  And even though several times the police told us that if we didn't leave right away, this was during George Bush's speech, that if we didn't leave by a certain time, they would start arresting everyone.
[41:43.690 --> 41:47.350]  They always backed down and just didn't do it.
[41:47.450 --> 41:54.810]  That's 180 degrees different than what happened the days before because you, first of all, got a warning saying, if you don't do this, you will be arrested.
[41:54.810 --> 41:56.430]  You know, a conditional if-then statement.
[41:57.350 --> 42:00.050]  Now, we got no such warning at all.
[42:00.190 --> 42:03.570]  Now, it's interesting, too, because what happened in your case was... that was on Thursday?
[42:03.930 --> 42:04.710]  Thursday night, yeah.
[42:04.710 --> 42:05.690]  The last day of the convention.
[42:06.170 --> 42:07.730]  I don't know if you could tell this.
[42:07.810 --> 42:17.810]  And by the way, our phone number for any cops or people that were part of this whole dragnet thing to call up 212-209-2900 and please make your remarks as brief as possible as we have limited time.
[42:21.110 --> 42:21.990]  It's basically...
[42:23.230 --> 42:30.310]  We were not given any kind of warning, obviously, Thursday, when you were given warning.
[42:30.490 --> 42:31.130]  That was the last day.
[42:31.210 --> 42:37.990]  Throughout the city, throughout the city, you could sort of feel this, especially in Union Square, but throughout the city, just sort of like...
[42:37.990 --> 42:42.450]  Imagine the city surrounded by hostile tanks, all right?
[42:42.510 --> 42:43.830]  Sort of an invading army.
[42:44.170 --> 42:49.010]  And now imagine that something has happened, something has been worked out, and the tanks are leaving.
[42:49.250 --> 42:50.290]  The tanks are pulling away.
[42:50.550 --> 42:51.430]  That is the feeling.
[42:51.430 --> 42:53.310]  I certainly had that feeling on Thursday night.
[42:53.470 --> 42:55.770]  It just seemed like everybody was backing down.
[42:56.110 --> 42:58.650]  Everybody was calming down.
[42:59.110 --> 43:00.790]  A huge sigh of relief.
[43:01.910 --> 43:06.290]  And just a really bizarre way for the whole thing to end.
[43:06.470 --> 43:10.070]  And I also have to thank the people of New York just for showing incredible support.
[43:10.270 --> 43:20.110]  Everywhere I went, there were signs of people sympathetic or just hostile to this whole occupation that took place over the whole last week or so.
[43:21.970 --> 43:25.710]  Well, let's take some phone calls and see who's out there.
[43:25.890 --> 43:26.430]  And good evening.
[43:26.510 --> 43:26.750]  You're on.
[43:27.670 --> 43:29.310]  Good evening, sir.
[43:29.630 --> 43:33.450]  One point about 9 inches...
[43:33.450 --> 43:35.290]  Rebel, you're not fooling anybody but yourself.
[43:35.990 --> 43:36.670]  Good evening.
[43:36.770 --> 43:37.230]  You're on the air.
[43:38.090 --> 43:38.770]  Hey, how you doing?
[43:38.890 --> 43:39.090]  Okay.
[43:39.650 --> 43:40.910]  Listen, I want to ask you...
[43:40.910 --> 43:41.870]  Well, just mention something.
[43:41.930 --> 43:42.690]  I'm not a cop.
[43:43.150 --> 43:47.670]  I wasn't there, but it goes like this, all right?
[43:47.790 --> 43:52.770]  You don't want to be the mayor of the city when something happens to the president.
[43:53.710 --> 43:54.590]  So I'm...
[43:55.210 --> 43:56.810]  I got it on pretty good authority.
[43:57.010 --> 43:57.450]  Actually, I'm sorry.
[43:57.490 --> 43:58.030]  I take that back.
[43:58.110 --> 43:59.090]  I'm just guessing.
[43:59.170 --> 43:59.430]  Okay.
[43:59.710 --> 44:12.750]  They were told, okay, make these people go away, okay, we'll deal with the lawsuits later and all kinds of nonsense that's going on later, make it safe for the Republicans, okay, and that's pretty much it.
[44:12.830 --> 44:13.670]  They'll deal with you later.
[44:13.670 --> 44:14.750]  Well, let me just ask you a question.
[44:14.910 --> 44:15.750]  How do people...
[44:15.750 --> 44:27.350]  How do a bunch of people in a marching band on 16th Street in any way threaten the president many blocks up on the west side inside Madison Square Garden?
[44:27.410 --> 44:28.430]  He wasn't even there yet.
[44:28.490 --> 44:29.110]  And he wasn't even there.
[44:29.190 --> 44:35.470]  I would think he would have to worry more about the people around him inside the garden rather than the people that are outside downtown.
[44:35.750 --> 44:35.950]  Mike?
[44:36.050 --> 44:48.010]  You know, I can actually answer that question because I saw a copy of the document that the police officers were given about how to prepare and what to expect during the Republican Convention.
[44:48.310 --> 45:03.690]  And there was a section in this document about marching bands and how the protesters allegedly used marching bands and apparently, and neither I nor any of the, you know, people who have been doing activism for years knew this, but apparently the police know this,
[45:03.850 --> 45:08.190]  that a drumbeat speeding up is the signal to attack.
[45:08.190 --> 45:08.270]  attack.
[45:08.590 --> 45:09.610]  Oh my God.
[45:10.910 --> 45:12.210]  If I had only known.
[45:12.290 --> 45:14.230]  If you had only known you would have attacked, right?
[45:14.370 --> 45:16.950]  You know, well they didn't speed up the beat either, I don't think.
[45:17.690 --> 45:18.790]  What do all the horns mean?
[45:18.850 --> 45:19.510]  Do they have symbols?
[45:19.710 --> 45:21.030]  That wasn't clear.
[45:21.350 --> 45:21.810]  Well, okay.
[45:23.010 --> 45:24.570]  There was a really good piece.
[45:24.670 --> 45:31.430]  First of all, I have to give credit to New York One as a station that did a tremendous job covering this.
[45:32.690 --> 45:42.270]  They were the only station that I could see that was covering the protests and updating people on what was going on inside Pier 57 and just talking about other actions that were taking place throughout the city.
[45:42.970 --> 45:44.990]  And, you know, that's what media should be doing.
[45:45.130 --> 45:45.430]  All right.
[45:45.470 --> 45:49.910]  The rest of the media as far as I could see was just simply propaganda pieces for George W.
[45:50.030 --> 45:55.570]  Bush and the Republicans which is, you know, pretty disgusting when that's what local media turns into.
[45:57.070 --> 45:57.930]  Wait a minute.
[45:58.190 --> 45:59.610]  I can tell you who did a better job.
[45:59.870 --> 46:00.830]  Well, WBAI, of course.
[46:01.070 --> 46:02.610]  And Indy Media as well.
[46:02.730 --> 46:06.010]  If you're going to claim Indy Media as press, you better give them some credit.
[46:06.010 --> 46:13.050]  Yeah, and I was referring specifically to television, you know, because, you know, TV obviously is a big part of all this.
[46:13.630 --> 46:17.330]  And, you know, part of being locked away like that, I'd lose my train of thought.
[46:17.350 --> 46:18.830]  I was making a point about media.
[46:18.830 --> 46:20.810]  I was going to say something and I forget what it was.
[46:20.810 --> 46:21.670]  Oh, well.
[46:23.050 --> 46:24.570]  Hopefully it'll come back to me.
[46:25.110 --> 46:25.370]  Oh, yes.
[46:26.050 --> 46:31.990]  WNBC, actually, Channel 4, had a really good piece I think a day or two before the convention.
[46:32.610 --> 46:37.370]  They aired it on a program called Really, Really Early Today or something like that.
[46:37.650 --> 46:47.250]  And it basically listed all of the things that the police had been told that demonstrators were going to be doing and that the threats that the city was facing and debunked every single one of them.
[46:47.390 --> 46:49.590]  Said how they were all complete nonsense.
[46:50.030 --> 46:51.230]  And I just was impressed.
[46:51.490 --> 46:54.310]  And hopefully somebody recorded that someplace because I'd sure like to see it.
[46:54.530 --> 46:54.730]  All right.
[46:55.530 --> 46:56.110]  Let's take another phone call.
[46:56.170 --> 46:56.430]  Good evening.
[46:56.570 --> 46:56.930]  You're on the air.
[46:57.350 --> 46:58.010]  Good evening.
[46:58.250 --> 46:58.590]  How you doing?
[46:58.970 --> 46:59.270]  Good.
[46:59.670 --> 47:13.790]  I was curious if the organizations which had all these protests, for example, the one on the New York Public Library steps where some innocent people were arrested, have they ever apologized to those innocent people for their part in getting them arrested?
[47:14.190 --> 47:17.130]  You're talking about the organizations staging the protest?
[47:17.370 --> 47:17.430]  Yes.
[47:17.430 --> 47:20.750]  I think the police should be the ones to apologize for arresting innocent people.
[47:20.850 --> 47:33.450]  Well, you know, when you're hanging a banner which you have no paperwork for, no authority, just, you know, hang up on top of the lines of the steps of the main library, you know, the police aren't going to be too happy about that.
[47:33.630 --> 47:33.910]  Okay.
[47:33.990 --> 47:35.550]  You know, you know that there's going to be a reaction.
[47:35.670 --> 47:37.890]  This is the whole civil disobedience thing is about.
[47:38.330 --> 47:42.750]  Provoke the police, create a response, then point your finger and say, look, look, we're being oppressed.
[47:42.750 --> 47:43.730]  Help us, help us.
[47:44.130 --> 47:49.970]  You know, the whole thing you were saying a few minutes ago before about these tanks encircling the city and they're pulling away.
[47:50.370 --> 47:51.930]  I've been born and raised in this city.
[47:52.130 --> 47:54.710]  My family's been in here in this city for over a hundred years.
[47:54.930 --> 47:56.430]  I didn't feel anything like that.
[47:56.590 --> 47:58.310]  You know, I went about my life normally.
[47:58.570 --> 48:02.970]  I went down to Macy's a few hours after they finished that stupid protest on Saturday.
[48:03.270 --> 48:05.050]  And you know what the result of all these protests...
[48:05.050 --> 48:06.930]  I think you mean the one on Sunday with half a million people.
[48:07.030 --> 48:07.890]  Is that the one you're talking about?
[48:09.210 --> 48:10.530]  I believe it was which one?
[48:10.830 --> 48:12.110]  The one, yeah, okay, Sunday.
[48:12.330 --> 48:12.550]  All right.
[48:12.690 --> 48:14.370]  Maybe the stupid one was on Saturday.
[48:14.590 --> 48:15.690]  They were all pretty stupid.
[48:15.690 --> 48:20.530]  Well, you know, if you want to lump everybody together as one train of thought, let me tell you something.
[48:20.930 --> 48:36.610]  Inside prison or whatever you want to call it, jail or what, I don't want to belittle people who really are in prison, but inside the holding facilities that we were held in for about 33 hours or me and myself held in 33 hours, I met so many different people with different philosophies,
[48:36.770 --> 48:37.390]  different opinions.
[48:37.570 --> 48:43.210]  People were arguing and debating to lump everybody together and say, oh, you all believe one thing.
[48:43.370 --> 48:44.750]  It's just, it's nonsense.
[48:45.150 --> 48:45.390]  All right?
[48:45.390 --> 48:47.070]  That's not how it is at all.
[48:47.230 --> 48:51.410]  There are people there saying, oh, this is, this is like a concentration camp.
[48:51.410 --> 48:53.150]  This is just like that prison in Iraq.
[48:53.270 --> 48:54.490]  And other people say, what are you, nuts?
[48:54.570 --> 48:55.490]  It's nothing like that.
[48:55.690 --> 48:56.450]  Good Lord.
[48:56.610 --> 48:57.790]  You know, this is not the Holocaust.
[48:57.790 --> 49:03.890]  Us, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're victims here, but come on, get a hold of yourself.
[49:04.050 --> 49:05.950]  Let's be rational, reasonable people.
[49:06.650 --> 49:14.910]  And, you know, I just think the, a lot of protesters get painted with a very broad brush as being lunatics because there are a couple of lunatics in their midst.
[49:15.190 --> 49:17.990]  And I, I just don't think that that's, uh, that's at all fair.
[49:18.570 --> 49:23.230]  And to, to, to blame the protesters for what happened to, to people who weren't protesting?
[49:23.390 --> 49:24.170]  No, I, I'm sorry.
[49:24.510 --> 49:26.450]  Protesting is, is a right.
[49:26.610 --> 49:28.130]  You have the right to protest.
[49:28.570 --> 49:28.930]  Okay.
[49:29.030 --> 49:29.610]  And okay.
[49:29.670 --> 49:31.530]  Maybe you don't have a permit to hang that banner.
[49:31.870 --> 49:32.230]  Fine.
[49:32.350 --> 49:36.410]  You know, you, you, you, you pay whatever penalty there is for not having a permit to do something.
[49:36.950 --> 49:43.510]  Doesn't give the police carte blanche to go after everybody in an attempt to just, uh, capture a couple.
[49:44.150 --> 49:44.530]  All right.
[49:44.530 --> 49:46.750]  I'm getting kind of, kind of fed up with that mentality too.
[49:46.750 --> 49:48.690]  Jim, you had, uh, something to contribute here.
[49:48.830 --> 49:50.750]  Well, I was, I was going to say a number of things.
[49:50.930 --> 50:03.410]  Uh, first of all, I know I'm paraphrasing, but I, I think I remember the piece of the conference, constitution that says that the right of the peace of the people to peaceably assemble for redress of grievances shall not be abridged.
[50:04.050 --> 50:07.470]  Uh, and our caller seems to somehow forget that.
[50:07.810 --> 50:11.310]  Secondly, I saw a lot of film of that, uh, protest on the library.
[50:11.450 --> 50:30.070]  The police managed to identify the two women who unfurled the banner on the lion, managed to go in and make a surgical strike and arrest just those two, and then suddenly decided to arrest everybody on the steps, including people who blatantly had no connection to the protest.
[50:30.070 --> 50:35.690]  People who had just, uh, gone up on the steps to look, uh, press.
[50:35.950 --> 50:44.070]  They, uh, were grabbing people who were pressed who then, on film, on, on tape that I saw on television, identified themselves with their press card and got out of that.
[50:45.650 --> 50:48.870]  Uh, I, I, I find, I find the attitude unbelievable.
[50:48.970 --> 50:59.270]  Now, uh, I, I, I too come from a family, part of whom have been in this city for a hundred years, uh, having left Greece, uh, to avoid, uh, oppression.
[50:59.270 --> 51:00.170]  This kind of, this kind of thing.
[51:00.570 --> 51:02.070]  Yeah, to avoid this kind of thing.
[51:02.410 --> 51:06.890]  So, uh, you know, don't, don't get on your, on your high horse about nativism.
[51:08.490 --> 51:09.130]  Uh, okay.
[51:09.230 --> 51:10.130]  I, I, I'm just stunned.
[51:10.370 --> 51:11.970]  I, I, I, I, words, words have failed me.
[51:12.090 --> 51:15.890]  Yeah, I, I, you know, I find that to be the case amongst just about everybody I've talked to.
[51:15.990 --> 51:17.390]  It's got nothing to do with politics anymore.
[51:18.370 --> 51:22.990]  This was a massive screw up on the part of the Bloomberg administration.
[51:24.010 --> 51:29.670]  And, uh, you know, first of all, I, you know, a lot of people would want an apology.
[51:30.090 --> 51:30.970]  He's not going to do that.
[51:31.090 --> 51:32.170]  He's not going to give people an apology.
[51:32.710 --> 51:33.570]  It'll never happen.
[51:33.970 --> 51:34.410]  All right.
[51:34.470 --> 51:37.030]  Bloomberg has gone on record as praising the police department.
[51:37.250 --> 51:39.130]  I don't know what alternate universe he lives in.
[51:39.370 --> 51:41.970]  A plus, uh, rating there.
[51:42.270 --> 51:43.990]  Uh, I want my goddamn coupon.
[51:44.170 --> 51:52.290]  I never got one, you know, for being a peaceful protester on Sunday, which I was, you know, Sunday I protested, you know, along with half a million other people.
[51:52.490 --> 51:58.830]  And, uh, and the rest of the time I was filming and trying to get interviews and things like that and, uh, never got my damn coupon.
[51:58.830 --> 51:59.730]  But never mind that.
[52:00.150 --> 52:03.390]  Thing is, you know, there has to be a reaction to this.
[52:03.510 --> 52:05.450]  We cannot just let this go by.
[52:05.590 --> 52:08.990]  This was a massive abuse of so many people's rights.
[52:09.530 --> 52:13.250]  And, you know, I, I missed two days because of this.
[52:13.670 --> 52:21.290]  I wasn't able to, uh, to, to, to get a lot of the material I wanted to get, talking to people and covering news items as they were, as they were happening.
[52:21.410 --> 52:23.850]  Let's try to take a couple more phone calls in the brief time we have left.
[52:23.850 --> 52:24.190]  Good evening.
[52:24.330 --> 52:24.530]  You're on.
[52:25.530 --> 52:25.790]  Yeah.
[52:25.870 --> 52:26.150]  Hi.
[52:26.690 --> 52:32.030]  Um, you might recognize my voice because, um, I actually heard it on a recording just a few minutes ago.
[52:32.150 --> 52:34.510]  I'm actually a, I was standing next to you.
[52:35.130 --> 52:40.310]  Um, and I don't know if it's ringing a bell, but I, I am a credentialed journalist.
[52:40.410 --> 52:42.150]  I didn't have my, um, credentials there.
[52:42.370 --> 52:46.990]  I, I heard you talking to the police saying, uh, your organization's recognized or something like that.
[52:46.990 --> 52:47.170]  Exactly.
[52:47.430 --> 52:47.510]  Okay.
[52:47.650 --> 52:48.390]  Tell us the story.
[52:48.590 --> 52:56.190]  Well, I was able to actually talk my way out of that situation by speaking to the commanding officer.
[52:56.230 --> 53:01.050]  But, um, what I do want to say is that I've, you know, I was born in the city.
[53:01.250 --> 53:05.550]  I've, um, been making documentaries and news in the city for 25 years.
[53:06.030 --> 53:16.030]  Um, I've also covered, um, political and social issues and under dictatorships in Haiti, Guatemala, and in various places in South America.
[53:16.410 --> 53:21.830]  I'm shocked and outraged by the infringements on our first amendment rights.
[53:22.010 --> 53:41.730]  And I think that, you know, the one thing I'd like to contribute to this, um, dialogue is I really think that it's very important that the journalistic community get together and begin to address this question of what are or are not, are not credentials.
[53:41.730 --> 53:43.850]  What is the flow of information?
[53:43.850 --> 53:45.430]  Who can cover the flow of information?
[53:45.430 --> 53:49.090]  As you know, we were on the sidewalk.
[53:49.090 --> 53:51.690]  That is the public domain.
[53:52.230 --> 54:03.790]  Uh, the people that were surrounding us were watching actually the protesting taking place and we were documenting, um, the arrest taking place.
[54:03.910 --> 54:07.550]  I, I don't see how that could have been perceived in any other way.
[54:08.310 --> 54:25.710]  Um, and I just think that there are very serious issues here that, you know, the legal community has to get together with the journalistic community and that organizations like Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, uh, in Washington DC and NYACLU and,
[54:25.710 --> 54:39.190]  uh, and various legal organizations really need to take a good hard look at this now while there's a momentum and to really begin to address this question because we're, we're stopping the flow of information and that's a tragedy.
[54:39.190 --> 54:40.350]  I was able to get away.
[54:40.650 --> 54:45.270]  I do work for various international news organizations and I submitted my report.
[54:45.470 --> 54:47.830]  It went out to about a hundred different countries worldwide.
[54:48.350 --> 54:51.830]  If I had been arrested as you were, I would not have been able to do that.
[54:52.550 --> 55:02.830]  And, uh, and I think that that's a tragedy if, you know, not only for yourself, but it would have been a tragedy for me and it's just a tragedy for information in this society in general.
[55:03.970 --> 55:04.110]  All right.
[55:04.230 --> 55:05.990]  Well, thanks, uh, thanks very much for saying that.
[55:06.190 --> 55:06.370]  Okay.
[55:06.470 --> 55:06.930]  Well, thank you.
[55:07.090 --> 55:07.410]  All right.
[55:08.570 --> 55:22.410]  And, uh, yeah, you know, there's so many people that, uh, that were a part of this, this common thing that happened to us on 16th Street and other places as well, Herald Square and World Trade Center and all kinds of other places, the library throughout the city,
[55:22.830 --> 55:24.510]  uh, where people's rights were trampled on.
[55:24.690 --> 55:29.450]  Now, a number of people came here from other parts of the country, other parts of the world.
[55:30.110 --> 55:33.890]  And it's important that people not just let this go.
[55:34.290 --> 55:44.410]  If you were arrested, if you were a part of this, contact the, uh, the New York City Civil Liberties Union, www.nyclu.org.
[55:45.050 --> 55:53.250]  Uh, and there's all kinds of forms to fill out, uh, things to file, uh, as far as, um, uh, class action suits and things like that.
[55:53.430 --> 55:54.530]  Also National Lawyers Guild.
[55:54.630 --> 55:56.290]  Does anybody have their website handy, Mike?
[55:56.450 --> 55:57.070]  You know what that is?
[55:57.510 --> 55:58.430]  NLG.org.
[55:58.510 --> 56:00.090]  It's NLG.org, but there's a New York City one.
[56:00.190 --> 56:01.250]  I guess you can link to it from there.
[56:01.630 --> 56:03.910]  The NLGs basically get two chapters.
[56:04.010 --> 56:05.830]  One of them is New York, so you'll find it.
[56:05.970 --> 56:09.930]  Uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of information still needs to be gathered.
[56:09.950 --> 56:15.050]  If you have, if you have video, if you have audio, uh, we need to, uh, to, to see this.
[56:15.150 --> 56:15.830]  We need to hear this.
[56:15.930 --> 56:17.630]  There could be something in there that would be very helpful.
[56:18.370 --> 56:22.550]  Uh, and, um, there's a, a, a bit of material that I've already posted.
[56:22.550 --> 56:27.690]  I'm going to be posting it on, on 2600 site in the, uh, very near future video, audio, print, that kind of thing.
[56:28.110 --> 56:38.990]  Uh, also, you might be interested in listening to last night's edition of Off the Wall, which is also available on 2600.com because we played a lot more of the actualities that were recorded on site.
[56:39.890 --> 56:41.290]  Um, all right.
[56:41.310 --> 56:43.410]  We're just about out of time, unfortunately.
[56:43.830 --> 56:46.830]  Uh, you can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[56:47.150 --> 56:52.150]  Uh, if you have experiences, if you were there, uh, if you have questions or anything like that, we're here to help.
[56:53.010 --> 56:58.430]  Um, I, Mike, I believe you had an update for the, uh, IMC, the, the hassle that was faced by them.
[56:58.970 --> 57:01.290]  Yeah, I don't know if I can do it in 30 seconds.
[57:01.430 --> 57:02.610]  I'm going to have to give it a try.
[57:03.270 --> 57:17.390]  Um, the Secret Service tried, uh, a few weeks ago to subpoena the records of the New York City Independent Media Center, uh, into revealing who had posted, uh, a list of, uh, the RNC delegates.
[57:17.750 --> 57:19.630]  Um... A list which was already publicly available.
[57:19.630 --> 57:20.890]  A publicly available list.
[57:21.190 --> 57:25.990]  Uh, the Secret Service claimed that, uh, posting it to the New York City in the media site was voter intimidation.
[57:26.330 --> 57:32.810]  Highly ironic, given all the intimidation that the Secret Service does, uh, and in this case, uh... Where does it stand now?
[57:32.970 --> 57:36.070]  The, the, uh, the information simply does not exist.
[57:36.330 --> 57:37.470]  The logs that they're seeking.
[57:37.650 --> 57:38.770]  They do not exist.
[57:38.950 --> 57:39.110]  Right.
[57:39.470 --> 57:45.670]  Uh, and, uh, uh, so the ACLU is representing both the ISP and, uh, some folks from Indy Media.
[57:45.990 --> 57:51.610]  But, uh, uh, you know, the Secret Service, uh, if you stand up to them, they often have no case.
[57:52.050 --> 57:52.630]  All right.
[57:53.570 --> 57:55.270]  And that's where we're going to have to leave it for now.
[57:55.610 --> 57:57.070]  Personal Computer Show is up next.
[57:57.910 --> 57:59.230]  We'll be back again next week.
[57:59.350 --> 58:00.650]  Uh, probably talking about this a bit more.
[58:00.790 --> 58:02.850]  Certainly on Off the Wall next week we'll be talking about it as well.
[58:03.010 --> 58:10.170]  And again, OTH at 2600.com if you have any kind of, um, information, feedback, experiences that you'd like to share.
[58:10.590 --> 58:12.990]  Um, seek out other people that have been through this.
[58:13.130 --> 58:14.550]  It's very helpful, very therapeutic.
[58:15.610 --> 58:18.830]  While we need to get back to our lives, we also need to remember all this.
[58:19.210 --> 58:19.970]  See you next week.
[58:42.780 --> 58:50.160]  We will teach our twisted speech to the unbelievers.
[58:50.660 --> 58:56.900]  We will train our blue-eyed men to the unbelievers.
[01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:38.600]  Hey, we're back.
[01:00:39.120 --> 01:00:42.780]  We being the award-winning personal computer show.
[01:00:43.080 --> 01:00:49.180]  It is 8pm 801 here on WBAI New York 99.5 FM on your stereo dial.
[01:00:49.600 --> 01:00:53.920]  And it is September the 8th already?
[01:00:54.520 --> 01:00:55.460]  2004.
[01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:59.300]  And you're listening to WBAI.
[01:01:00.180 --> 01:01:02.740]  So, everything sounds good here.
[01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:07.120]  Except for, you know, mostly everything.
[01:01:09.020 --> 01:01:12.800]  So, uh, hey, uh, I can hear all that paper in the background.
[01:01:17.160 --> 01:01:17.700]  Yeah.
[01:01:18.080 --> 01:01:20.480]  Yeah, it wasn't on, uh, yet, Mike.
[01:01:20.680 --> 01:01:21.860]  But, uh, you know what?
[01:01:22.040 --> 01:01:24.800]  The Personal
[01:01:28.380 --> 01:01:29.120]  Computer Show.
[01:01:30.620 --> 01:01:31.100]  Stevie?
[01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:32.380]  Stevie, you gotta use your finger.
[01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:33.800]  Uh-huh.
[01:01:34.120 --> 01:01:34.480]  Well...
[01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:35.000]  Press the buttons.
[01:01:35.500 --> 01:01:36.440]  The button, huh?
[01:01:36.560 --> 01:01:37.180]  Well, it's...