[00:00.000 --> 00:07.440]  Last week, Congress accused the FDA of not demanding negative drug trial data that was withheld by a pharmaceutical corporation.
[00:07.900 --> 00:15.200]  Karen Menzies earlier testified before the panel, and she said she was hopeful about these most recent recommendations to the FDA.
[00:15.540 --> 00:19.360]  I can't help but say it's been a long time coming, but thank God it's finally coming.
[00:19.900 --> 00:26.840]  And I hope that ultimately what FDA does ultimately is consistent with what the PDAC is requesting, because that didn't happen the last time.
[00:26.840 --> 00:32.840]  So I hope FDA is successful in enforcing against the drug companies the warnings that are being recommended.
[00:33.060 --> 00:40.500]  The FDA will be advised to place the strongest warnings given to medications on the following nine drugs when prescribed to children.
[00:40.840 --> 00:48.160]  Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Welbutrin, Celexa, Luvox, Serzone, and Remeron.
[00:48.660 --> 00:50.900]  Jenny Johnson, Free Speech Radio News.
[00:51.200 --> 00:56.520]  There is growing outrage in South Dakota over the policy of removing children from their families.
[00:56.520 --> 01:00.100]  A policy that seems to harshly impact native families.
[01:00.340 --> 01:14.900]  A newly formed grassroots multiracial women's group, Voice of Women, is bringing attention to the welfare of South Dakota children who are removed from their families by the state's Department of Social Services, or DSS, when their parents turn to the DSS for help.
[01:15.180 --> 01:20.200]  Parents are finding themselves being prosecuted and charged with neglect or abuse of their own children.
[01:20.200 --> 01:25.000]  Of particular concern is how these actions are impacting the Indian Child Welfare Act.
[01:25.280 --> 01:28.280]  FSRN correspondent Jim Kent reports.
[01:28.620 --> 01:34.240]  The South Dakota Department of Social Services looking for adoptive and foster homes for Native American children.
[01:34.240 --> 01:37.260]  They need you, 343-2598.
[01:37.660 --> 01:44.120]  An advertisement airs every day on South Dakota public radio stations seeking homes for American Indian children.
[01:44.480 --> 01:53.420]  According to spokesperson Virginia Wiesler, the state's Department of Social Services is required to make every effort to place Indian children in good homes.
[01:53.420 --> 01:55.660]  The Indian Child Welfare Act is federal law.
[01:55.840 --> 01:58.920]  We have to make good faith efforts to follow it.
[01:59.140 --> 02:02.940]  We do have a problem because we don't have enough Native American foster homes.
[02:03.280 --> 02:10.640]  And so when you're placing children and you're wanting to place with a Native American foster home, that can be a problem because we don't have those resources.
[02:10.880 --> 02:17.760]  But the real problem, says Voice of Women founder Gwen Caldwell, isn't the lack of available Indian foster and adoptive homes.
[02:17.920 --> 02:20.260]  The problem, she notes, is the system.
[02:20.260 --> 02:26.700]  Every effort is supposed to be made in order to place these children among their people.
[02:26.740 --> 02:29.780]  And that is absolutely not happening.
[02:30.040 --> 02:36.900]  They use things like, oh, we can't place the child with the grandmother because they'll still have contact with the parent.
[02:37.260 --> 02:47.760]  You know, you can't believe the stories that we hear about why Indian Child Welfare Act cannot be applied in these cases.
[02:47.760 --> 02:54.300]  And yet they go to court and say every reasonable effort has been made to follow the Indian Child Welfare Act.
[02:54.480 --> 03:04.040]  According to the Indian Child Welfare Act, if suitable family members can't be located to place a child, the state must then turn to the family's tribe for possible placement.
[03:04.040 --> 03:09.900]  Should that fail, then each of the state's tribes must be contacted for assistance in placing the child.
[03:10.180 --> 03:20.780]  With Indian children comprising 65% of those in the social services system against the South Dakota population share of 13%, Caldwell's concerns are easily recognized.
[03:20.780 --> 03:28.700]  Moreover, even Regina Wiesler admits the number of Indian children being fostered out to Indian homes is a bit lopsided.
[03:29.080 --> 03:32.080]  We only have 69 Native American foster families.
[03:32.800 --> 03:36.140]  And that's not very many out of 774.
[03:36.500 --> 03:38.720]  So why the disparity in the system?
[03:39.240 --> 03:44.740]  Caldwell and the dozens of women who filed reports with the Voice of Women group share the same response.
[03:44.740 --> 03:45.420]  Money.
[03:45.760 --> 03:47.820]  Money is absolutely the only motive.
[03:48.100 --> 03:51.780]  From $4,000 to $6,000 a month per child.
[03:52.180 --> 03:56.280]  Okay, we're going to have to fade this down because unfortunately the news started horrendously late yet again.
[03:56.620 --> 03:59.420]  And sorry, we just can't do this now.
[03:59.620 --> 04:00.340]  It's time for Off the Hook.
[04:00.460 --> 04:02.540]  The news will be heard again tonight at 11 o'clock.
[04:07.780 --> 04:12.160]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[04:13.200 --> 04:17.650]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[04:18.380 --> 04:23.030]  We couldn't get much worse, they would.
[04:23.330 --> 04:25.910]  From Billy Bump, but the best is back for worse.
[04:26.610 --> 04:28.430]  I hope that's understood.
[04:28.590 --> 04:29.530]  From Billy Bump!
[04:49.530 --> 04:50.890]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[04:50.890 --> 04:52.550]  The program is Off the Hook.
[04:52.670 --> 04:57.050]  We come your way every Wednesday night from around 7 o'clock until 8 o'clock.
[04:57.370 --> 05:01.570]  Talking about technology, among other things.
[05:01.790 --> 05:05.810]  Last week, of course, we were talking about what happened at the Republican Convention.
[05:05.810 --> 05:07.670]  And we're still going to be talking about that to a degree.
[05:08.650 --> 05:12.770]  We, once again, welcome phone calls from people who were involved in what happened.
[05:12.830 --> 05:15.170]  It's an important part of the whole healing process.
[05:16.010 --> 05:18.170]  Phone number 212-209-2900.
[05:18.250 --> 05:20.150]  We'll be taking calls just a little bit later.
[05:21.630 --> 05:30.130]  And in case you didn't know, I was one of the 1800 plus that was taken into custody and subjected to the whims of the state, as it were.
[05:30.430 --> 05:31.770]  And, wow.
[05:32.430 --> 05:36.030]  It still takes time to recover from all this.
[05:36.470 --> 05:44.410]  I've got all kinds of recollections, evidence of sorts, in the form of video, audio, photographs, things like that.
[05:45.090 --> 05:50.550]  It's up on our website, www.2600.com, slash rnc...
[05:51.270 --> 05:53.170]  I think 2004, is it?
[05:53.370 --> 05:53.510]  Okay.
[05:54.170 --> 05:54.570]  Yeah.
[05:54.910 --> 05:55.310]  rnc2004.
[05:55.450 --> 05:55.930]  It's all up there.
[05:56.270 --> 05:57.650]  It'll take you a long time to read.
[05:58.190 --> 05:59.830]  So maybe you want to do that after the show.
[05:59.830 --> 06:03.650]  But we would like to hear your feedback on that, as well as many other things.
[06:04.230 --> 06:11.350]  And we thank the people who wrote in with comments, suggestions, their experiences, things like that.
[06:11.830 --> 06:21.610]  I've been combing the net, looking for all kinds of other experiences that people were subjected to during that whole week.
[06:22.190 --> 06:25.210]  It's amazing how many of them are so similar.
[06:25.690 --> 06:28.650]  How many little details get remembered by different people.
[06:28.910 --> 06:32.670]  Or things that you might have forgotten about, that all of a sudden it's jarred in your head.
[06:32.750 --> 06:33.430]  Oh yeah, you know.
[06:33.610 --> 06:35.090]  That is where that happened.
[06:35.170 --> 06:37.390]  That is where that particular exchange took place.
[06:37.390 --> 06:42.690]  Or that's where these particular objects were in the tombs or at the pier.
[06:43.510 --> 06:46.290]  And it just all comes rushing back to you.
[06:46.770 --> 06:48.030]  I think that's important.
[06:48.030 --> 06:51.950]  I think for those people that have been through this, it's important to try to remember it all.
[06:52.030 --> 06:54.150]  I know a lot of us would like to just forget it all.
[06:54.390 --> 06:55.650]  But it's not going away.
[06:55.790 --> 06:58.250]  It's not something that we can just wipe away.
[06:59.430 --> 07:01.330]  Many of us have to go back to court.
[07:01.770 --> 07:05.810]  My court date is October 1st, which happens to be also the day of the next 2600 meeting.
[07:05.870 --> 07:06.790]  So I guess that will be convenient.
[07:07.750 --> 07:10.050]  But many of them are coming before that.
[07:10.410 --> 07:13.690]  Many of them are happening in, I think, a week or so.
[07:14.250 --> 07:15.710]  So we're going to be following that.
[07:15.710 --> 07:18.630]  And we'll hopefully be speaking with people who are part of that process.
[07:20.010 --> 07:21.990]  And, you know, seeing what happens.
[07:22.170 --> 07:23.530]  What happens to them.
[07:23.650 --> 07:29.210]  What happens to the entire judicial process as it unfolds.
[07:31.350 --> 07:32.930]  It's crazy to speak of.
[07:33.030 --> 07:35.090]  And Bernie, you're joining us this week from Philadelphia.
[07:35.090 --> 07:35.750]  How are you doing?
[07:36.290 --> 07:36.590]  Hi.
[07:37.010 --> 07:41.790]  It harkens back to four years ago here in Philly where we had our own RNC.
[07:42.550 --> 07:42.970]  Yeah.
[07:43.650 --> 07:48.790]  But although I've got to admit, this was far better documented by your work.
[07:49.770 --> 07:51.450]  So you're really to be commended.
[07:51.670 --> 07:52.270]  Well, thank you.
[07:52.350 --> 07:52.850]  Thank you very much.
[07:52.970 --> 07:56.550]  Unfortunately, they didn't see me as a journalist when they arrested me.
[07:56.550 --> 08:04.290]  But maybe this will prove to them that, yes, I was in fact there to document and to record and to capture images and things like that.
[08:05.210 --> 08:11.870]  A number of people wrote in with the link to the NYPD press pass that you're supposed to have.
[08:11.870 --> 08:13.050]  Let me just point out a couple of things.
[08:13.510 --> 08:20.350]  I will never, as long as the universe is alive, be allowed to get that particular press pass.
[08:20.470 --> 08:20.610]  Why?
[08:20.750 --> 08:25.650]  Because I won't be able to demonstrate a need to get behind police barricades on a regular basis.
[08:26.190 --> 08:33.830]  Usually the people who need to do that are people who have a full-time beat that have to cover news stories.
[08:33.830 --> 08:38.790]  If somebody jumps off a roof or something, they have to be there to take a picture of the body or something.
[08:38.790 --> 08:46.210]  You know, people who have a demonstrated need to bring news to people around the clock and get behind police lines.
[08:46.330 --> 08:47.370]  That's not what this was about.
[08:47.430 --> 08:49.210]  And I wasn't even trying to get behind police lines.
[08:49.330 --> 08:51.730]  The police formed a circle around all of us.
[08:52.390 --> 08:55.210]  And what does this say for anybody who's out of town?
[08:55.430 --> 09:02.190]  Do you have to get a press pass for every single police department in the country to avoid this kind of thing?
[09:02.330 --> 09:03.250]  It's nonsense.
[09:03.610 --> 09:04.370]  It's utter nonsense.
[09:06.110 --> 09:08.970]  The card I had from the Indian Media Center should have been enough.
[09:09.350 --> 09:12.170]  If not that, then certainly all the equipment that I had on me.
[09:12.490 --> 09:17.170]  And if not that, certainly the fact that I wasn't marching in the street or causing any kind of disruption whatsoever.
[09:17.310 --> 09:20.270]  Or the fact that they never gave any kind of order to disperse.
[09:21.830 --> 09:25.410]  I've seen this said so many times by so many people.
[09:26.370 --> 09:27.330]  It's unbelievable.
[09:27.550 --> 09:34.190]  And I would imagine the people in City Hall are a bit worried right now because they've really put themselves in a very bad position.
[09:34.390 --> 09:36.990]  I know there was a city council meeting today at 10 a.m.
[09:37.250 --> 09:44.210]  And you know, I thought that our illustrious Time Warner cable system would actually play today's hearing.
[09:44.450 --> 09:48.050]  Unfortunately, they played last week's hearing at 10 a.m.
[09:48.170 --> 09:48.270]  today.
[09:48.270 --> 09:51.950]  So I have a tape of last week's hearing instead of today's.
[09:51.970 --> 09:54.170]  If anybody was at today's hearing, please give us a call.
[09:54.270 --> 09:55.070]  We'd like to know what happened.
[09:55.190 --> 10:02.910]  But there was supposedly all kinds of questions raised as to just what happened last week, the actions of the police, the actions of the government.
[10:05.130 --> 10:09.650]  And I guess, you know, we'll find out one way or another just what steps are going to be taken.
[10:11.870 --> 10:12.210]  Emmanuel?
[10:12.450 --> 10:13.130]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[10:13.530 --> 10:19.110]  It would be worth hearing from our listeners as to what the requirements are in their cities.
[10:19.290 --> 10:23.650]  I mean, people who are not in New York who listen to Off the Hook, which we know there are many.
[10:24.970 --> 10:34.310]  Probably it would be instructional to find out what different municipalities and towns and so forth, what their requirements are for press passes.
[10:34.310 --> 10:44.730]  Here in Philadelphia, I've researched it, and you have to be a full-time paid reporter for some major news organization.
[10:44.730 --> 10:53.070]  And, you know, most people who report are not full-time employees of whatever media outlet they report for.
[10:53.170 --> 11:00.630]  There's a lot of stringers and part-time freelance reporters, and you just don't qualify for a press pass that way.
[11:00.770 --> 11:01.310]  Mm-hmm.
[11:01.370 --> 11:03.230]  And I'll certainly never get paid.
[11:03.870 --> 11:04.350]  Right.
[11:04.350 --> 11:05.330]  So what does that say?
[11:05.430 --> 11:16.230]  It says that people who do this because they want to do it, they're the ones that should be kept out, whereas the people who are doing it because it's their job and they get paid, they're the only ones that are qualified.
[11:16.390 --> 11:17.370]  It makes no sense.
[11:17.750 --> 11:20.190]  It's tied to money, to finance.
[11:20.390 --> 11:33.370]  It says you must be a full-time employee of the organization, which has to be, obviously, a profit-based organization, if it can afford to pay people full-time to report.
[11:33.370 --> 11:41.230]  So I think that really gets to the heart of what, you know, how this is limiting the type of reporting that's happening.
[11:41.410 --> 11:49.970]  But you see, in this particular case, in the past what had happened was if you did not have an NYPD press card, you couldn't get to a particular story.
[11:49.970 --> 11:53.830]  You were prevented from having access to a particular area.
[11:53.850 --> 11:56.430]  And, for instance, I couldn't walk near Madison Square Garden.
[11:56.430 --> 11:58.410]  That's kind of the thing that I would expect to have happen.
[11:58.410 --> 12:06.070]  But now it's been elevated a step so that you could get arrested now if you don't have the particular card that the NYPD issues you.
[12:06.490 --> 12:17.390]  It seems like a very unhealthy step, a way of selectively picking out those people that shouldn't be in a particular part of the city and they can just swoop down and get everybody at the same time.
[12:17.390 --> 12:30.230]  And I should also point out, Emmanuel, that I have learned that law enforcement takes almost a fearful approach to press passes aren't those belonging to corporate media types.
[12:30.290 --> 12:38.030]  I personally was held without bail for two reasons, as argued by the U.S.
[12:38.070 --> 12:38.410]  government.
[12:38.410 --> 12:44.110]  And one was that I had a press card that was false identification.
[12:44.410 --> 12:53.470]  Basically it was a press card that said press on one side and pull on the other side in deference to the Three Stooges episode where these guys tried to get into the ball game using press passes.
[12:53.730 --> 12:56.310]  And it had my picture and it said Bernie S.
[12:56.370 --> 12:56.630]  on it.
[12:56.650 --> 13:04.610]  And on the other side it said, in an age of disinformation, anyone and everyone is qualified to report the news.
[13:05.090 --> 13:19.290]  And that was one of that and the books that were in my home were the two arguments used to argue that I was, one, a risk of flight because I had false identification, and two, that I was a danger to community because of the content of books I had in my possession.
[13:19.410 --> 13:31.030]  So I've learned that the government takes a very dim view of anything that doesn't strike them as an official press card belonging to some corporate media organization.
[13:31.030 --> 13:38.390]  Well, I think if there was ever an opportunity to fight that particular perception, this is it.
[13:38.570 --> 13:48.510]  This is definitely an instance where they not only didn't honor the press passes of independent media, but they punished you because you had those press passes on you.
[13:49.710 --> 13:53.590]  And the amazing thing is that it was documented so well.
[13:53.590 --> 14:02.850]  I saw in the news last night that, and this was reported actually beforehand too, somebody in one of the apartments above what was going on on 16th Street was filming the whole thing.
[14:03.070 --> 14:05.110]  He was leaning out of his window and filming.
[14:05.590 --> 14:06.750]  And it's amazing.
[14:06.870 --> 14:18.350]  It's amazing the things that he captured because what I've noticed in all the accounts that I've been reading and all the people who have been speaking and calling into the radio shows and writing to us, nobody's making anything up.
[14:18.350 --> 14:20.090]  Everything they're telling is what happened.
[14:20.350 --> 14:25.370]  And the people who were there behaved in a very admirable way.
[14:26.310 --> 14:33.870]  They listened to everything that was told to them, they followed all the instructions, yet they were still punished for actions that they did not, for the most part, commit.
[14:35.370 --> 14:45.470]  So I think there's definitely a good opportunity here to make some significant changes and for some significant heads to roll too, because they need to.
[14:47.010 --> 14:49.810]  Again, our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[14:49.850 --> 14:57.870]  If you're listening to this later on and you can't call us, we prefer to hear from you right now, 212-209-2900 if you were there, if you have a story to tell.
[14:58.130 --> 15:06.990]  And I also, I have the challenge remains for anybody from the police department to call us as well and explain just what was going on.
[15:07.230 --> 15:08.690]  You know, what kind of orders were you given?
[15:08.830 --> 15:09.750]  Did you follow those orders?
[15:09.910 --> 15:11.050]  Were you part of this whole thing?
[15:11.050 --> 15:12.690]  Do you feel you did the right thing?
[15:13.110 --> 15:14.990]  Are you aware of the way people were treated?
[15:15.150 --> 15:17.010]  Are you aware of how long people were held for?
[15:17.930 --> 15:19.430]  Do you think this was a success?
[15:20.170 --> 15:27.930]  We got a letter from someone who is not on the NYPD but has been a police officer for over 12 years.
[15:27.950 --> 15:37.490]  We also got a call on the other radio station from someone who was not an NYPD cop but somebody who was from a different jurisdiction who said that this kind of thing probably wouldn't happen where he works.
[15:37.570 --> 15:38.010]  Well, I don't know.
[15:38.630 --> 15:43.690]  At this stage, I have to say, when the orders come down, people seem to follow them without question.
[15:44.230 --> 15:48.910]  That's part of the way the organization is made up, you know, that military structure.
[15:49.970 --> 15:54.790]  Anyway, let me read you what this guy said and we can comment on that a little bit and maybe get some other thoughts.
[15:55.710 --> 16:01.690]  First off, the right of protesting and freedom to do it must be guaranteed whether it is 10 people or 250,000 people.
[16:02.070 --> 16:10.490]  I listened to your story and from your point of view, I can see how one would make their opinion based on your contact with the NYPD and their slow processing and lack of empathy.
[16:11.010 --> 16:12.510]  Let's look at it from their point.
[16:12.710 --> 16:16.550]  Let's put the whole terrorism issue on the back burner and just go with demonstration.
[16:16.550 --> 16:21.770]  In mass numbers or small demonstrations, you have the propensity for violence.
[16:22.310 --> 16:26.230]  Not every protester is a happy citizen or lawful.
[16:26.370 --> 16:28.850]  So the NYPD has to take this into account.
[16:28.850 --> 16:33.490]  Remember, in a grouping, a riot can break out very easy.
[16:34.290 --> 16:37.950]  That's why they cut off in groups and use nets to contain it.
[16:38.230 --> 16:46.130]  It's not that the protesters are bad people, but take heat, lack of food, and close proximity to each other and you've got ingredients for riot.
[16:46.750 --> 16:51.110]  Remember, a fight between two people can erupt and charge through grouping of people, i.e.
[16:51.270 --> 16:51.710]  Woodstock.
[16:52.470 --> 17:00.170]  As a police department, you still have calls for service, murders, rapes, burglaries, and the whole array of NYC problems that still go on while you were protesting.
[17:00.370 --> 17:05.570]  No police department in the world can be 100% effective or able to please everyone with this much going on.
[17:05.810 --> 17:08.310]  Now add the terror threat and, boy, you are overwhelmed.
[17:08.570 --> 17:14.030]  Try supervising this mess and try to be all to everyone and call every shot correctly as it is happening.
[17:15.210 --> 17:16.890]  A lot of what-ifs there, you know?
[17:17.150 --> 17:17.950]  Redhack, you got something?
[17:17.950 --> 17:23.790]  If I could just make one comment about what he said about propensity for violence and rioting and all that.
[17:24.430 --> 17:32.670]  I remember when I was at one of the anti-war rallies, they basically, what the police did, you know, it was just, you know, it was a large rally in the streets.
[17:33.090 --> 17:34.810]  This wasn't during the RNC, this was before.
[17:35.590 --> 17:42.510]  And they basically cordoned everyone off into smaller groups and, you know, kind of packed them all in between barriers.
[17:42.510 --> 17:47.050]  And up until that happened, everything, you know, was going nicely.
[17:47.250 --> 17:52.230]  It was like the protest on the 29th.
[17:52.230 --> 17:52.930]  The 29th, yeah.
[17:53.790 --> 17:58.670]  You know, and it was just nice and everyone was there and, you know, sharing their opinion.
[17:58.830 --> 18:06.990]  And then as soon as they kind of did break everyone up and caged them in, that's when people started to get, you know, upset.
[18:06.990 --> 18:17.050]  So I felt that during that, at that time, it was them, they were actually creating more of a problem.
[18:17.070 --> 18:19.590]  They instigated the problem by treating people like cattle.
[18:19.870 --> 18:19.950]  Right.
[18:20.130 --> 18:20.310]  Yeah.
[18:20.830 --> 18:25.790]  Another problem with current tactics.
[18:26.050 --> 18:33.890]  The new tactics by the police department lead one to believe that you're being or about to be put under arrest or at least the likelihood increases.
[18:33.890 --> 18:39.450]  So by cordoning people off, of course, everybody gets a bit trepidatious, antsy.
[18:39.650 --> 18:43.850]  They're fearful of an imminent series of arrests coming, including themselves.
[18:44.590 --> 18:47.890]  So I think it's counterproductive for the police to actually do that.
[18:48.850 --> 18:49.630]  Continuing here.
[18:49.890 --> 18:51.750]  You are the lowly police officer.
[18:51.870 --> 18:54.110]  You are the lowest paid officer in the tri-state area.
[18:54.230 --> 18:55.330]  You are working without a contract.
[18:55.330 --> 18:59.150]  You are forced to work 12 to 14 hours a day, plus a commute during the convention.
[18:59.150 --> 19:03.870]  You are either tired or caffeined up, and you are in an area which is not your normal work area.
[19:03.870 --> 19:05.350]  That is the processing room.
[19:05.630 --> 19:07.770]  You have people chanting, let us go.
[19:08.050 --> 19:11.070]  You are handed poor processing equipment that never works well.
[19:11.210 --> 19:14.970]  You also have a 30-pound gun belt on, and that does wonders for your lower back.
[19:15.130 --> 19:20.010]  Your home precinct is the Bronx, where you get spit on while at your calls just because you're a cop.
[19:20.430 --> 19:23.510]  Now go out and try and be 100% and try to be understanding of everyone.
[19:23.710 --> 19:28.850]  You now see a person near a subway, and you read his activity wrong, and you make a mistake and lock up someone innocently.
[19:28.910 --> 19:31.510]  You get sued and have internal affairs on you.
[19:32.130 --> 19:33.610]  So you sat there for 30 hours.
[19:33.710 --> 19:39.230]  Remember the police officer has 20 more years of that much fun, and when he retires, he looks forward to having a heart attack within six years of retirement.
[19:39.430 --> 19:40.550]  Can you walk that line?
[19:41.390 --> 19:41.910]  Signed Peter.
[19:41.910 --> 19:46.390]  Well, Peter, you know, I sympathize with all the hardships and problems that cops face.
[19:47.310 --> 19:57.990]  But at some point you have to look at the actions and wonder how much of it is because of the policies, because of the orders that you're given, that it works out this way.
[19:58.170 --> 20:04.390]  That you are underpaid and underappreciated and not liked by the people you're supposedly protecting.
[20:05.050 --> 20:18.190]  Can you honestly believe that anyone, anyone of those 1,800 people that had to suffer through this crap for however many days that they were forced to go through it, do you think they're going to respect police after this?
[20:18.270 --> 20:23.350]  Do you think they're going to honor them and trust them ever again?
[20:23.830 --> 20:25.670]  A lot of damage was done here.
[20:25.870 --> 20:26.810]  A lot of damage.
[20:27.070 --> 20:27.570]  And Emmanuel?
[20:27.830 --> 20:28.050]  Yes.
[20:28.050 --> 20:44.410]  Another point is that even if you put all fairness aside and put all sympathies for the police who were undoubtedly overworked, underpaid, etc., that their primary responsibility is to uphold the law.
[20:44.610 --> 20:47.110]  And the highest law of the land is the Constitution.
[20:47.550 --> 20:52.790]  And the Constitution says you cannot be arrested without probable cause.
[20:52.790 --> 20:58.110]  And there was none in most of these cases, in my opinion, and probably yours.
[20:58.190 --> 20:58.510]  You were there.
[20:58.590 --> 20:58.990]  What do you think?
[20:59.210 --> 21:08.090]  Well, I heard a number of instances where police would say to somebody, we're arresting you now because of what you're going to do later.
[21:08.650 --> 21:08.990]  Right.
[21:09.210 --> 21:10.990]  It was pre-crime.
[21:11.890 --> 21:14.390]  They were predicting what people were likely to do.
[21:14.690 --> 21:17.790]  And I think they also targeted a lot of people based on what they look like.
[21:17.790 --> 21:23.450]  If you recall last week, we played the excerpt where the policeman told me I wasn't pressed without ever looking at any ID.
[21:23.770 --> 21:24.610]  He just said, you're not pressed.
[21:24.730 --> 21:26.450]  He could tell by my face I wasn't pressed.
[21:27.130 --> 21:28.150]  That kind of a thing.
[21:28.470 --> 21:37.250]  And probable cause is probable cause that a crime has occurred, not is might occur or is likely to occur.
[21:37.490 --> 21:38.730]  It has occurred.
[21:38.970 --> 21:40.430]  That's what the Supreme Court has said.
[21:40.570 --> 21:42.210]  And that's the highest law of the land.
[21:42.350 --> 21:44.950]  And the police are responsible for enforcing the law.
[21:45.070 --> 21:46.430]  And that's the most powerful law.
[21:46.430 --> 21:48.970]  And it seems like the law was broken in this case.
[21:49.810 --> 21:51.110]  And it's funny because...
[21:51.110 --> 21:52.650]  By law enforcement.
[21:52.930 --> 21:54.430]  All the self-righteous people.
[21:54.570 --> 21:58.590]  And I hear so much of the self-righteousness out there.
[22:00.670 --> 22:03.390]  They say, if you break the law, you got to pay the price.
[22:03.510 --> 22:07.530]  Well, you know, many of us are not the ones who broke the law.
[22:07.730 --> 22:12.510]  Yeah, there were some people who sat down in front of something, you know, engaged in civil disobedience.
[22:12.790 --> 22:13.130]  Whatever.
[22:13.310 --> 22:14.790]  You know, it's still not that big a deal.
[22:14.790 --> 22:17.890]  It still didn't cause mayhem and panic in the streets.
[22:17.950 --> 22:19.790]  It's a simple act of civil disobedience.
[22:19.870 --> 22:23.830]  Yeah, so you held a poster up in front of the lion at the public library.
[22:24.150 --> 22:24.770]  Big deal.
[22:25.290 --> 22:29.250]  People, most New Yorkers, I think, would be able to get through the day knowing that happened.
[22:29.670 --> 22:31.730]  Not a big major incident.
[22:32.250 --> 22:37.070]  So, yeah, there were a couple of people who did something that technically was a violation.
[22:37.130 --> 22:39.670]  The vast majority of people, however, did not.
[22:40.170 --> 22:42.390]  And, yeah, the law was broken.
[22:42.490 --> 22:50.730]  Most definitely when their rights were stepped on and they were taken into custody and held prisoner for three, sometimes even more days.
[22:51.330 --> 22:52.530]  Let's read a couple of letters.
[22:52.810 --> 22:54.890]  Again, our phone number, 202-209-2900.
[22:55.090 --> 22:55.910]  We'll take some phone calls.
[22:56.290 --> 23:00.730]  I was taken by the police with you at East 16th Street on August 31st.
[23:01.250 --> 23:03.490]  I was kept for 46 hours.
[23:03.850 --> 23:13.030]  And when I was finally released Thursday evening, I retrieved my audio recorder and got a few interviews with other people recently let go and waiting to get their stuff back.
[23:13.210 --> 23:18.770]  I posted the interviews, which I digitized and converted to OGG files to the IMC site.
[23:18.790 --> 23:22.570]  I recently heard last week's off the hook and figured I'd email you the link for the interviews.
[23:23.490 --> 23:37.730]  And that link is nyc.indymedia.org, indymedia spelled I-N-D-Y-M-E-D-I-A, slash newswire, slash display, slash 118550, slash index.php.
[23:38.210 --> 23:43.050]  And there are a number of people who have posted all kinds of interesting things on there.
[23:43.050 --> 23:56.810]  You kind of have to weed through a lot of garbage to get to it, too, because I just have all kinds of problems with the open newswire system that IMC has, where anybody can overwhelm the system by posting all kinds of garbage.
[23:56.970 --> 24:03.590]  So you have to really look for the gems and then wade through all the crap that people post trying to drown them out.
[24:06.230 --> 24:06.890]  Here's another letter.
[24:06.930 --> 24:10.450]  I was walking around Tuesday night, the night you were arrested, and I saw how the cops were forming.
[24:10.450 --> 24:12.190]  I thought it was strange and meant something.
[24:12.710 --> 24:15.150]  Anyway, I called RNC Legal.
[24:15.510 --> 24:18.070]  I imagine they mean the National Lawyers Guild.
[24:18.370 --> 24:21.370]  And they said they were on the case, that they knew about the roundup.
[24:22.110 --> 24:24.770]  You know the cops do not have to read you Miranda rights.
[24:24.930 --> 24:27.510]  Once you're cuffed, you know your Miranda rights.
[24:28.390 --> 24:29.150]  Great reports.
[24:29.270 --> 24:31.210]  Fantastic that you managed to keep one cell phone.
[24:31.290 --> 24:33.030]  And miraculously, you got all your property back.
[24:33.670 --> 24:34.370]  Great reports.
[24:34.470 --> 24:34.990]  Glad you're out.
[24:35.110 --> 24:38.390]  Hope you feel okay after the dismal conditions at Pier 57, signed Holly.
[24:38.530 --> 24:40.330]  Thanks very much for the encouraging words.
[24:40.810 --> 24:44.450]  And you know, I gotta say, Pier 57 was a garbage pit.
[24:44.650 --> 24:51.430]  It had all kinds of stains on the ground and all kinds of horrible fumes and just bad conditions.
[24:51.510 --> 24:57.550]  But I would have preferred to stay there than what they did to us at the tombs because that place was vile.
[24:57.750 --> 25:01.930]  That's where people get sent whenever they're picked up and processed in the system.
[25:02.450 --> 25:04.330]  And we spent most of our time there.
[25:04.330 --> 25:06.630]  So that was a nightmare.
[25:07.790 --> 25:10.590]  And a lot of people, you know, it takes time to recover from this.
[25:10.790 --> 25:20.950]  And of course, Bernie, you know, what happened to us pales in comparison to what happened to you, what happened to Kevin, what happened to Fiber, and what happened to people throughout this country and throughout the world.
[25:21.570 --> 25:34.190]  And it makes me wonder, you know, how much of this can people, can average people take if you can get so, so screwed up after just a couple of days of it to go through it for years, decades even.
[25:34.190 --> 25:36.650]  Well, you just have to extrapolate it by a few hundred times.
[25:37.570 --> 25:39.290]  Well, I'm curious.
[25:39.450 --> 25:43.190]  Not to diminish it all, because what you went through was truly traumatic, I'm sure.
[25:44.210 --> 25:52.390]  One of the things that's really unfortunate about this manual is there will undoubtedly be lawsuits against the city for violations of people's rights.
[25:52.910 --> 26:06.470]  But what happened here in Philly is very similar to the RNC here four years ago, and that there were lawsuits, and what happens is that the city taxpayers end up having to pay for those lawsuits.
[26:07.310 --> 26:19.170]  Never the people who were truly responsible for breaking the law or violating people's rights, as clearly occurred in Philadelphia and clearly occurred in New York recently.
[26:19.890 --> 26:22.510]  The ones who were responsible never have to pay.
[26:22.510 --> 26:24.150]  They're just not held accountable.
[26:24.350 --> 26:26.290]  And the city taxpayers have to foot the bill.
[26:26.290 --> 26:27.750]  That's just grossly unfair.
[26:28.030 --> 26:29.170]  And then they get upset at us.
[26:29.330 --> 26:29.770]  Yeah!
[26:30.350 --> 26:32.210]  We're the ones that caused them the money.
[26:32.430 --> 26:34.750]  We're the ones that tied up the traffic.
[26:34.970 --> 26:38.690]  We're the ones that caused all the mayhem and the fear that was in the streets for that week.
[26:38.810 --> 26:39.790]  Like a big shell game.
[26:39.890 --> 26:42.950]  It's really, really interesting how this plays out.
[26:43.030 --> 26:47.850]  The only way to win is to stay home and not talk to anybody and not say anything, not express your opinion.
[26:48.630 --> 26:49.210]  All right.
[26:49.270 --> 26:50.290]  Let's take a phone call.
[26:50.430 --> 26:52.790]  We have a bunch more things to read.
[26:53.790 --> 26:55.250]  212-209-2900.
[26:55.250 --> 26:55.850]  212-209-2900.
[26:55.850 --> 26:56.170]  And good evening.
[26:56.290 --> 26:56.470]  You're on.
[26:57.230 --> 26:57.450]  Okay.
[26:58.830 --> 27:01.510]  BI phone system is, as usual, performing up to standards.
[27:01.670 --> 27:01.930]  Good evening.
[27:02.030 --> 27:02.330]  You're on.
[27:02.810 --> 27:03.030]  Hello?
[27:03.310 --> 27:03.650]  Go ahead.
[27:03.870 --> 27:04.090]  Yeah.
[27:04.230 --> 27:05.350]  As to the police...
[27:05.770 --> 27:06.590]  Let me turn the radio down.
[27:06.590 --> 27:06.790]  Yeah.
[27:06.830 --> 27:07.510]  Police turn the radio down.
[27:07.750 --> 27:12.790]  As to the police and what they have to go through and stuff like that, that's a job that they were chosen.
[27:12.950 --> 27:14.350]  They weren't drafted.
[27:14.770 --> 27:15.050]  Mm-hmm.
[27:15.050 --> 27:16.830]  So they chose to do that work.
[27:17.190 --> 27:24.330]  And you say that they did a lot of damage over this past thing with the Republican National Convention.
[27:24.610 --> 27:30.670]  Well, can you imagine the damage that they've done, which is why a lot of black people look at them the way they do?
[27:31.030 --> 27:31.390]  Mm-hmm.
[27:31.390 --> 27:36.450]  First-hand experience of things far worse than what would happen out there, because I was out there taking photos.
[27:36.630 --> 27:37.530]  I'm 38 years old.
[27:37.670 --> 27:39.510]  I grew up in a housing project in Brooklyn.
[27:39.690 --> 27:50.370]  And I tell you, if I had a digital camera then, tops Rodney King and everything, the behavior in our communities was, and to a large degree still is, atrocious.
[27:51.530 --> 27:54.890]  So they might be nice guys in Long Island and Westchester when they go home.
[27:55.030 --> 27:55.310]  Mm-hmm.
[27:55.310 --> 27:59.850]  When they come to where we live at, where they work, where they're supposed to protect us, I mean, I don't trust them.
[27:59.910 --> 28:00.950]  I don't trust them at all.
[28:01.070 --> 28:04.570]  And I think that the only good cop is a cop who, I mean, you're a cop.
[28:04.650 --> 28:11.150]  You investigate crime, yet all of these cops, and no one ever knows of what goes on in their precinct.
[28:11.690 --> 28:11.950]  Mm-hmm.
[28:12.110 --> 28:23.030]  Yeah, I very much am opposed to importing people from other parts of the region into the inner city to patrol, because they have a distorted view of what that is like.
[28:23.230 --> 28:30.690]  And, of course, the people in that community don't know who these people are and look at them as outsiders, which they are.
[28:31.190 --> 28:35.590]  I think the people that need to patrol communities are people that come from the communities.
[28:35.890 --> 28:41.810]  Isn't it amazing how few unarmed citizens have been shot by black police officers?
[28:42.050 --> 28:44.730]  You would think that they're not confronted by these people.
[28:44.970 --> 28:45.310]  Mm-hmm.
[28:45.550 --> 28:48.510]  That they're not confronted by the same people that these white cops are.
[28:48.510 --> 28:50.790]  Like, the cop that shot that kid on the rooftop.
[28:51.110 --> 28:53.710]  I can tell you that if that was a black cop, that wouldn't have happened.
[28:54.230 --> 29:05.590]  Well, you know, one thing I've learned from this experience is that the males and the females are just as bad as far as not caring about the prisoners.
[29:06.330 --> 29:09.430]  And, sorry to say, blacks and whites are just as bad as well.
[29:10.070 --> 29:14.610]  That's what I noticed inside the system, that they didn't care on an equal level.
[29:14.610 --> 29:16.390]  Oh, no, no, no, that's true.
[29:16.490 --> 29:19.970]  Once you're in there, but I'm talking about their behavior on the streets.
[29:20.330 --> 29:24.630]  And the reason that people have the attitudes towards the police that they do.
[29:24.810 --> 29:33.590]  Because, like I said, and I mentioned this before when I called in on other radio shows, this is before there were 15-year-olds carrying Uzis.
[29:33.590 --> 29:35.330]  This is before crack.
[29:35.830 --> 29:44.070]  So if their behavior was atrocious then, you know, so the excuse of the drugs on the street and the crime, the young kids with the gun, you know, it doesn't watch with me.
[29:44.170 --> 29:47.510]  Because before that existed, they were behaving the same way they do.
[29:48.130 --> 29:48.550]  All right.
[29:48.630 --> 29:49.190]  Thanks for your call.
[29:49.370 --> 29:49.570]  All right.
[29:49.630 --> 29:49.850]  Bye-bye.
[29:51.210 --> 29:52.930]  212-209-2900.
[29:53.730 --> 29:54.310]  And go ahead.
[29:54.370 --> 29:54.730]  You're on the air.
[29:56.190 --> 30:00.230]  Yes, Lenin pointed out the police are the armed fists of the bourgeois state.
[30:01.430 --> 30:05.090]  And it is... so that's the basic thing with the police.
[30:05.650 --> 30:12.130]  And when strikers go on strike, the police are there to help the bosses break their picket lines, etc.
[30:13.250 --> 30:14.670]  Yeah, that's their job, I guess.
[30:14.790 --> 30:18.470]  That's what their society has dictated that they do.
[30:18.630 --> 30:19.130]  It's crazy.
[30:19.530 --> 30:20.010]  Precisely.
[30:20.010 --> 30:22.230]  And that's why we say P-B-A-K-K-K.
[30:22.610 --> 30:23.130]  All right.
[30:23.270 --> 30:23.810]  Thanks for your call.
[30:24.910 --> 30:25.870]  And good evening.
[30:25.990 --> 30:26.330]  You're on the air.
[30:27.910 --> 30:28.550]  Go ahead.
[30:29.230 --> 30:29.670]  Emmanuel?
[30:30.090 --> 30:30.350]  Go ahead.
[30:30.410 --> 30:30.590]  Yes.
[30:30.950 --> 30:31.390]  Hi.
[30:32.350 --> 30:38.370]  I was listening when you were being arrested on the car, in the car radio.
[30:38.670 --> 30:40.870]  And I empathize with you and I hear you.
[30:41.350 --> 30:41.970]  I had a...
[30:41.970 --> 30:42.190]  Right.
[30:42.190 --> 30:44.350]  You weren't listening to the police radio when I was being arrested.
[30:44.530 --> 30:45.110]  No, I was listening...
[30:45.110 --> 30:48.310]  No, you were talking on a cell and you were talking to...
[30:48.310 --> 30:51.010]  Oh, you were listening to WBAI live.
[30:51.210 --> 30:51.370]  Okay.
[30:51.510 --> 30:51.710]  Yes.
[30:51.970 --> 30:52.310]  Exactly.
[30:52.670 --> 30:52.810]  All right.
[30:53.810 --> 30:58.230]  And I said, oh my goodness, he's going to go through what I experienced just last year.
[30:58.230 --> 31:00.090]  And I just want to share something very quickly.
[31:00.270 --> 31:00.450]  Okay.
[31:00.650 --> 31:02.090]  They do what they call sweets.
[31:03.130 --> 31:09.190]  And I found myself at the wrong place at the wrong time, I guess.
[31:09.690 --> 31:10.930]  I live in New Jersey.
[31:11.010 --> 31:16.050]  I'm a BAI listener and donor or sponsor.
[31:16.270 --> 31:21.950]  Long story short, I was waiting at a red light somewhere in the Bronx coming from work.
[31:22.850 --> 31:24.770]  And a cop just stopped me and says, pull over.
[31:25.950 --> 31:27.890]  And I looked at him and said, what can I do for you?
[31:27.970 --> 31:28.830]  He said, show me your papers.
[31:28.930 --> 31:30.070]  I show him all my papers.
[31:30.470 --> 31:31.830]  He said, I'll be back in a moment.
[31:32.330 --> 31:34.310]  Comes back, he said, get out of the car, you're under arrest.
[31:35.770 --> 31:38.550]  He claimed that I had a ticket from 1986.
[32:02.370 --> 32:06.590]  They arrested you for not paying a ticket in 1986.
[32:07.930 --> 32:09.390]  How long were you in the system for?
[32:10.570 --> 32:11.850]  About 36 hours.
[32:11.950 --> 32:15.970]  They kept telling me, it's going to be only the cop that arrested me.
[32:16.030 --> 32:22.530]  Then after he checked me out, he talked to me, and he engaged me, he realized that I'm not a criminal.
[32:22.990 --> 32:26.430]  But I think that he had some shred of conscience.
[32:27.070 --> 32:30.350]  And I said to him, you know, you've just made my life super difficult, sir.
[32:30.490 --> 32:34.170]  You know, my family, my wife, my kids, it was horrendous.
[32:34.170 --> 32:42.970]  And if I don't have the time, because obviously I'm on the radio, but if you know what it is to go through the stages they put you through, this is in the Bronx.
[32:43.810 --> 32:49.770]  And to make a long story short, 30, I don't know, near 38 hours later, I'm in front of a judge.
[32:50.010 --> 32:51.730]  And they break you down.
[32:52.390 --> 33:00.410]  If not, at the last minute, I told my wife, get any lawyer in the room, get any lawyer in the room, give him whatever he wants, get me the hell out of here.
[33:00.590 --> 33:04.950]  Because they said, look, you're going to get a death ticket, you'll go away, it's going to be okay, it's not going to be a problem, go away.
[33:05.130 --> 33:08.590]  But they kept me there telling me, that's going to be another six hours, it's going to be another six hours.
[33:08.750 --> 33:10.270]  I don't want to talk about the food.
[33:10.270 --> 33:20.130]  I want to talk about a cell that you were in, like sardines, and you were treated like, not even subhumans, you were treated like animals.
[33:21.010 --> 33:25.530]  And now I realize why people hate these guys so much.
[33:25.710 --> 33:31.450]  And, you know, the argument that there's good cops, there's bad cops, you know, that's a very weak argument.
[33:31.510 --> 33:39.510]  Because when you're in that system and you see how people act, and if you're a part of that, my mother said to me, show me who you're with and I'll show you who you are.
[33:40.270 --> 33:44.110]  We're living in a police state and it's getting worse, and it's horrible.
[33:44.390 --> 33:47.790]  This happened to me last year, and I feel like it happened yesterday.
[33:48.370 --> 33:52.830]  I am 53 years old, and it was the worst day of my life.
[33:53.870 --> 33:56.150]  That's a half a century to fathom such a statement.
[33:56.310 --> 33:56.470]  Yeah.
[33:56.630 --> 33:57.850]  With that, I leave you, Emmanuel.
[33:58.090 --> 34:01.890]  I hope that you solve your problem and that you sue them and you can garner something.
[34:02.090 --> 34:03.530]  They ain't giving me diddly squat.
[34:04.390 --> 34:04.890]  All right.
[34:05.050 --> 34:08.690]  Well, thanks so much for expressing your story, and I hope that you've come through this okay.
[34:08.690 --> 34:08.710]  Okay.
[34:09.330 --> 34:10.390]  From your mouth to God's ear.
[34:10.470 --> 34:10.970]  Good luck to you.
[34:11.110 --> 34:11.390]  All right.
[34:11.450 --> 34:11.710]  Take care.
[34:11.810 --> 34:11.910]  Bye.
[34:12.350 --> 34:14.770]  You have to wonder how many stories like that there are out there.
[34:14.830 --> 34:16.770]  How many people have gone through this hell.
[34:16.890 --> 34:21.250]  And, you know, my perception has changed so much because of this.
[34:21.850 --> 34:24.930]  You know, what he said about good cops and bad cops.
[34:25.030 --> 34:36.170]  Yeah, you know, you don't feel that way anymore after seeing what they do, how the whole machine operates, how they really don't care at all once you're in there, how they treat you in a subhuman way.
[34:36.170 --> 34:38.710]  I mean, I heard people who were really in pain.
[34:38.710 --> 34:41.250]  I got through this relatively unscathed.
[34:41.330 --> 34:42.170]  I wasn't sick.
[34:42.470 --> 34:45.190]  I wasn't in real pain.
[34:45.190 --> 34:49.210]  I mean, I couldn't use my wrist for several days because of the handcuffs.
[34:49.650 --> 34:56.270]  But there were people in far worse shape, far worse shape physically, mentally, people who needed medication who were not getting them.
[34:56.370 --> 34:59.470]  It was 24 hours before anybody even asked us if we had any medical conditions.
[35:00.430 --> 35:04.610]  So you have to wonder, what kind of scar is that kind of thing that's going to leave?
[35:05.190 --> 35:05.590]  Emmanuel?
[35:05.870 --> 35:06.270]  Yes, Bernie?
[35:06.630 --> 35:10.450]  Did you get the impression that some police officers...
[35:10.450 --> 35:17.830]  I'm sure there were definitely police officers there who have a sense of conscience and fairness and so forth.
[35:17.930 --> 35:19.250]  I mean, they're individuals like all of us.
[35:20.410 --> 35:33.350]  You get the sensation that some people, some officers who may have felt that way also felt more strongly that they had to show a unified front for their colleague police officers.
[35:33.530 --> 35:35.770]  Yeah, I mean, it's that blue line.
[35:36.130 --> 35:38.530]  Police stand up for each other right or wrong.
[35:38.710 --> 35:39.810]  And this is a good instance of that.
[35:39.870 --> 35:55.130]  I mean, if a cop shoots somebody, all the other police run to his defense, assuming he's correct before any facts are made known, he's allowed to not talk to anybody for a period of time and all kinds of craziness that normal citizens would never have the luxury of.
[35:55.930 --> 36:04.010]  So yeah, in this particular situation where we were all confined to this area, a lot of cops, I think, knew this is not right.
[36:04.010 --> 36:06.290]  This isn't really what I signed on for.
[36:06.430 --> 36:08.270]  And this isn't what the United States should be all about.
[36:08.930 --> 36:10.530]  But we got to stick together.
[36:10.650 --> 36:11.650]  We got to stick together.
[36:11.650 --> 36:15.210]  We got to do it for, you know, the benefit of the police force.
[36:15.690 --> 36:17.690]  And it'll all sort itself out in the end.
[36:18.310 --> 36:20.350]  And I don't think it's going to work out that way.
[36:21.270 --> 36:23.370]  All right, let's read a couple more letters and take some more phone calls.
[36:23.430 --> 36:24.850]  212-209-2900.
[36:25.070 --> 36:30.210]  And I'd especially like to hear from people who went through events during the RNC.
[36:30.450 --> 36:35.510]  And again, the invitation is open for anybody from the police department that would like to give us some insight.
[36:36.650 --> 36:40.910]  From John, John, I wonder if the police can say that you are not pressed for no good reason.
[36:41.030 --> 36:43.170]  Are we allowed to say you are not a police officer?
[36:43.530 --> 36:46.250]  Well, you're welcome to give it a try.
[36:47.410 --> 36:48.010]  Good luck.
[36:48.170 --> 36:52.090]  Yeah, you see, I continued being pressed after they told me I wasn't pressed.
[36:52.190 --> 36:55.630]  And I think they would continue being a police officer if I told them they weren't one.
[36:55.810 --> 36:58.210]  In fact, they might even become two police officers at that point.
[36:59.470 --> 37:02.850]  This person wrote in, taking a bit of offense to something I said last week.
[37:02.910 --> 37:03.810]  Let me clear this up.
[37:03.890 --> 37:04.730]  I'm a Brazilian listener.
[37:04.850 --> 37:05.450]  I've written before.
[37:06.290 --> 37:09.990]  Emmanuel's remark about Brazil last show was very stereotypical and insulting.
[37:10.030 --> 37:11.510]  I think what happened in New York was a shame.
[37:11.610 --> 37:14.290]  In Brazil, similar things have happened during public manifestations.
[37:14.530 --> 37:17.150]  Even worse, though I never experienced any.
[37:17.150 --> 37:19.650]  That's because the last time it happened, I wasn't even born.
[37:19.650 --> 37:23.590]  It was during the dictatorship that was planned, supported, and financed by the USA.
[37:23.890 --> 37:25.750]  Okay, well, let me just clear this up here.
[37:25.750 --> 37:31.690]  What I said was people getting, I believe, swooped off the sidewalk and dumped into the ocean.
[37:31.870 --> 37:32.910]  You know, homeless people.
[37:33.310 --> 37:35.350]  That has happened in Brazil in the past.
[37:35.350 --> 37:36.650]  Yes, not in the present.
[37:36.750 --> 37:38.490]  Brazil has made tremendous strides.
[37:38.730 --> 37:46.710]  They have a new president for the last year or so who is committed to changing things in a positive way.
[37:47.130 --> 37:48.610]  And I sure hope it works.
[37:48.890 --> 37:49.970]  I sure hope it works.
[37:50.090 --> 37:54.690]  They had, I believe, the first peaceful transition of power in a long, long time.
[37:54.690 --> 37:57.210]  But you can't forget the history.
[37:57.410 --> 37:58.530]  You can't forget the past.
[37:58.690 --> 38:01.730]  You can't forget the many people who died and were murdered.
[38:02.810 --> 38:14.930]  Tens of thousands of homeless kids were murdered in Sao Paulo alone in the course of a year back in the 70s and the 80s, I believe.
[38:15.690 --> 38:19.830]  So, you know, this kind of thing is not something you immediately erase.
[38:19.990 --> 38:22.370]  Yes, I'm aware of the tremendous strides being made.
[38:22.370 --> 38:26.270]  And I don't mean to impugn the Brazilian people in any way because I know people are trying there.
[38:26.390 --> 38:28.610]  But to this day, there exists death squads.
[38:28.750 --> 38:31.030]  There exists people who go around murdering homeless people.
[38:33.730 --> 38:37.110]  And whether it's related to the government or not, I know it's not related to the current government.
[38:37.110 --> 38:41.970]  But there are certainly paramilitary forces and all kinds of horrors that are going on.
[38:42.290 --> 38:49.450]  But, yeah, you know, I think one day people will be saying things like that about the United States if they are not already because of the things that are going on.
[38:50.050 --> 38:53.510]  And even if it changes, it takes a while for the perception to change.
[38:53.630 --> 38:55.890]  So, again, I'm sorry if I offended anybody with that.
[38:56.850 --> 39:05.730]  But, you know, I've been offending a lot of people lately because, you know, when you go through something like this, you just kind of stop caring and you sort of just lash out.
[39:06.490 --> 39:08.230]  So, apologies if anybody I've lashed out at.
[39:08.330 --> 39:09.150]  I'm sorry, Bernie, go ahead.
[39:09.250 --> 39:11.570]  We had another news item from Brazil as well, didn't we?
[39:11.830 --> 39:14.990]  Yeah, apparently it's the home of hackers now.
[39:15.710 --> 39:24.330]  This was a story that was on BBC saying that Brazil is the world hacking capital, the global capital for computer hacking and internet fraud.
[39:24.330 --> 39:25.730]  Of course, the two go hand in hand.
[39:26.590 --> 39:32.570]  Some 500 experts from around the world are attending the first international conference to combat electronic crime.
[39:32.810 --> 39:34.890]  I didn't know that they never did that before.
[39:35.950 --> 39:41.030]  Brazil is home to eight out of ten of the world's hackers, according to federal police at the conference.
[39:41.230 --> 39:43.830]  Well, that's what the federal police of Brazil say.
[39:45.310 --> 39:50.430]  Within Brazil, the amount of money lost in internet financial fraud outstrips that lost through bank robberies.
[39:50.630 --> 39:56.770]  Well, you know, I wonder, maybe Nigeria now is going to be the home of hackers, if they consider the Nigerian scam to be a hack.
[39:56.930 --> 39:59.550]  I don't think that ever works, the scam.
[39:59.790 --> 40:00.550]  Actually, it does.
[40:00.550 --> 40:05.350]  I'm sure there are some people out there that have fallen for every internet scam there is.
[40:06.550 --> 40:08.770]  I can't imagine it working very often, though.
[40:08.890 --> 40:10.810]  So they better get a lot out of it.
[40:11.090 --> 40:15.330]  Many of the hackers work in groups with names like Breaking Your Security or Virtual Hell.
[40:15.750 --> 40:19.110]  The explosion in hacking is blamed in part on weak legislation.
[40:19.310 --> 40:24.370]  Hacking itself is not a crime in Brazil, so police have to prove fraud has taken place in order to prosecute.
[40:24.370 --> 40:25.210]  What's wrong with that?
[40:25.590 --> 40:26.590]  What's wrong with that?
[40:26.810 --> 40:28.010]  I mean, it's fraud has...
[40:28.850 --> 40:30.030]  It's nothing should...
[40:30.030 --> 40:34.590]  I mean, you know, they say computer hacking and all that.
[40:34.750 --> 40:37.370]  People should go to jail for electronic abuse.
[40:37.490 --> 40:43.370]  I mean, if you abuse it, if you abuse the things you know how to do, then, yeah.
[40:43.630 --> 40:44.170]  That's different.
[40:44.250 --> 40:44.970]  That's different, right.
[40:45.190 --> 40:51.410]  But for exploring and, you know, toying around with, there's nothing wrong with that.
[40:51.530 --> 40:53.050]  You're just learning.
[40:54.690 --> 40:58.010]  Let's get back to a couple of letters here.
[40:58.770 --> 41:01.490]  I sent in an email concerning your treatment.
[41:02.290 --> 41:03.110]  You are a press.
[41:03.310 --> 41:05.530]  Also, I asked them to provide you with correct press credentials.
[41:05.630 --> 41:07.790]  Well, thank you very much for doing that, but I don't think it's going to work.
[41:08.610 --> 41:10.590]  I do listen and get part of my news from you.
[41:10.710 --> 41:11.550]  I will continue to try.
[41:11.730 --> 41:12.150]  Signed, Cal.
[41:12.670 --> 41:13.490]  Thanks for your efforts.
[41:13.630 --> 41:17.630]  But, you know, the Pope could step in here, and I don't think I'd get an NYPD press pass.
[41:17.970 --> 41:20.070]  And even if I did, it doesn't really answer the question.
[41:20.270 --> 41:23.790]  There are lots of people out there who did not deserve to be arrested.
[41:24.370 --> 41:27.950]  And I don't want to claim any kind of privilege that separates me from them.
[41:28.770 --> 41:29.530]  It's not fair.
[41:29.610 --> 41:30.970]  People have the right to stand on the sidewalk.
[41:31.170 --> 41:33.790]  People have the right to document, to video, to record.
[41:34.130 --> 41:37.490]  And I think if anything is going to make a difference here, it's the amount of people who were doing that.
[41:37.650 --> 41:39.390]  You know, the police were doing that, too, in great numbers.
[41:39.910 --> 41:41.430]  I'll bet we'll never see those videos.
[41:41.810 --> 41:53.950]  But so many people, whether they were in apartment buildings or just standing on the sidewalk, staring right back at the cops who are staring at us with their video cameras, getting that out is the most important thing.
[41:54.270 --> 41:57.010]  Getting whatever evidence you have to the National Lawyers Guild.
[41:57.090 --> 41:59.330]  If you have not done so already, please contact them.
[41:59.330 --> 42:06.710]  Go to their webpage, www.nlg.org, and show them what you have.
[42:06.870 --> 42:08.370]  I know people are worried.
[42:08.730 --> 42:12.930]  I noticed the person who was on WNBC, they were very careful not to identify him.
[42:13.050 --> 42:16.390]  People are actually worried about retribution from the police for giving out information.
[42:16.390 --> 42:17.730]  It's a well-founded fear.
[42:18.650 --> 42:24.130]  And if you contact the NLG, I'm sure your anonymity will be protected.
[42:24.630 --> 42:26.390]  So don't worry about that.
[42:26.790 --> 42:27.190]  Emmanuel?
[42:27.450 --> 42:27.650]  Yes.
[42:28.070 --> 42:31.770]  I'm just still trying to understand this press pass concept in New York.
[42:32.010 --> 42:32.930]  You won't.
[42:33.110 --> 42:37.350]  Well, I know it's a futile exercise to try to make sense, but hear me out here.
[42:38.170 --> 42:47.670]  Isn't the justification for a New York City press pass to be able to justify being able to be behind police lines?
[42:47.730 --> 42:48.130]  Is that right?
[42:48.290 --> 42:48.470]  Yes.
[42:48.950 --> 42:49.090]  Okay.
[42:49.310 --> 42:52.470]  Now, were you behind police lines?
[42:52.650 --> 42:56.330]  Were those lines formed without your knowledge?
[42:56.350 --> 42:58.990]  Were there signs posted saying, this is the police line?
[42:59.010 --> 43:00.830]  If you're not pressed, don't go past this.
[43:01.030 --> 43:02.130]  Tell me about these police lines.
[43:02.830 --> 43:04.890]  What happened was there was a street.
[43:05.230 --> 43:12.170]  Imagine, if you will, a peaceful block known as East 16th Street between Union Square and...
[43:14.190 --> 43:15.110]  And what's that?
[43:15.610 --> 43:16.210]  I'm sorry?
[43:16.390 --> 43:16.830]  Lexington?
[43:17.030 --> 43:17.630]  No, not Lexington.
[43:17.730 --> 43:20.430]  I keep forgetting the name of the Irving Place.
[43:20.590 --> 43:21.010]  Irving Place.
[43:21.010 --> 43:21.150]  Yeah.
[43:21.550 --> 43:23.450]  I have mental blocks in my head.
[43:24.250 --> 43:29.410]  And that peaceful street where people were walking down somewhere in the street, somewhere on the sidewalk.
[43:30.170 --> 43:34.150]  But when the police ordered the street clear, the street was cleared.
[43:34.350 --> 43:35.470]  Everybody was on the sidewalk.
[43:36.710 --> 43:38.790]  The police circle then formed.
[43:39.130 --> 43:42.230]  It was not a police line and everybody was inside it at the time.
[43:42.230 --> 43:44.690]  So there was no crossing of any kind of police barricade.
[43:46.310 --> 43:46.710]  All right.
[43:46.870 --> 43:51.830]  So if you had a press pass, then I don't understand.
[43:51.970 --> 43:52.450]  The press pass...
[43:52.450 --> 43:57.650]  Why would having a press pass allow you to get out of that situation if you weren't behind a press...
[43:57.650 --> 43:58.810]  It just doesn't make any sense.
[43:58.810 --> 44:01.810]  Picture, if you will, the press pass being something of an exit visa.
[44:02.030 --> 44:02.490]  Yes.
[44:02.490 --> 44:03.410]  That's what it was.
[44:03.590 --> 44:05.170]  It wasn't actually a press pass.
[44:05.310 --> 44:10.850]  It was a press free pass to get the hell out of there and not cover the story.
[44:11.190 --> 44:11.810]  Oh, exactly.
[44:12.010 --> 44:12.910]  Now you're getting...
[44:12.910 --> 44:13.570]  So it's...
[44:13.570 --> 44:14.110]  Yeah, I guess...
[44:14.110 --> 44:15.210]  We were afraid that people who would...
[44:15.210 --> 44:22.550]  Actual reporters who were rounded up would report very negatively against what happened to them at the hands of police and were let to go.
[44:22.550 --> 44:26.010]  So just to minimize negative press reporting about the incident.
[44:26.210 --> 44:33.170]  A press un-pass is probably a better way of phrasing it because, yeah, the people who took advantage of the offer were no longer covering the story because they had left.
[44:33.430 --> 44:34.030]  There you go.
[44:34.210 --> 44:34.530]  All right.
[44:36.930 --> 44:37.550]  Let's see.
[44:37.570 --> 44:42.190]  I just wanted to tell you that when they arrested people at the RNC, I made sure to tell as many people as I could of the injustice.
[44:42.190 --> 44:45.310]  I've been a fan of 2600, off the wall, off the hook for over a year now.
[44:45.490 --> 44:47.050]  I will help support it as long as I can.
[44:47.190 --> 44:52.030]  Thank you for opening my eyes and giving me ideas that were not being force-fed to me via the media and politics.
[44:53.070 --> 44:55.070]  Signed, Homicidal Mercury of Melbourne, Florida.
[44:55.310 --> 44:58.110]  Thank you very much for that comforting note.
[44:59.270 --> 45:01.130]  This person wants to know what happened to the marching band.
[45:01.230 --> 45:01.810]  Were they detained?
[45:02.130 --> 45:03.510]  I think they were a part of the conspiracy.
[45:03.750 --> 45:04.550]  Just my two cents.
[45:05.190 --> 45:06.310]  Signed, Daniel from Michigan.
[45:06.690 --> 45:08.650]  The marching band, they were amazing.
[45:08.810 --> 45:10.430]  They really were because...
[45:11.570 --> 45:13.970]  Red Hack, you're part of a marching band, but...
[45:13.970 --> 45:14.710]  Well, we...
[45:15.070 --> 45:16.650]  You're part of a school marching band.
[45:16.770 --> 45:17.790]  I don't know if you actually play an instrument.
[45:17.870 --> 45:18.350]  We don't march, though.
[45:18.430 --> 45:18.830]  All right.
[45:19.230 --> 45:19.410]  What?
[45:19.490 --> 45:20.390]  Just a standing band?
[45:20.470 --> 45:21.450]  We run around.
[45:21.670 --> 45:22.370]  A running band.
[45:22.470 --> 45:22.850]  Okay, fine.
[45:23.050 --> 45:26.290]  This was a marching band, but it was a marching band that was under attack.
[45:26.290 --> 45:50.830]  Now, to be able to continue to play music and continue moving while the police are spraying pepper spray and blocking your movements and occasionally grabbing one of your members and destroying your equipment, you know, to be able to continue playing under all of that until literally the last instrument was wrestled out of their hands and smashed on the sidewalk.
[45:50.830 --> 45:54.650]  And by the way, if anyone has any video of that, that would be particularly of interest.
[45:55.110 --> 46:07.610]  Emmanuel, this sounds a lot like the Fife and Drum Corps during the Revolutionary War, you know, where these guys were supposed to, like, lead the troops and so forth, and yet they were picked off by the British.
[46:08.590 --> 46:22.330]  Well, as Mike mentioned last week, as Mike mentioned last week, the police seem to think that the marching band leads a whole lot of people and that an increasing drumbeat means to charge or ridiculous things like that.
[46:22.330 --> 46:30.290]  I'm not sure where they got this from, where they made it up, but they're under all kinds of misconceptions as to what people were doing that week.
[46:30.450 --> 46:31.110]  All kinds.
[46:31.730 --> 46:37.530]  I thought they sounded a lot like the band on the Titanic that kept playing as they were going down.
[46:37.630 --> 46:38.990]  That band was a little more mellow, I think.
[46:39.090 --> 46:44.570]  A little more mellow, but still, I mean, they continued to play, given even knowing what was going to happen.
[46:44.570 --> 46:45.330]  Given the impending doom.
[46:45.750 --> 46:46.810]  All right, let's take some more phone calls.
[46:47.410 --> 46:48.470]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[46:49.650 --> 46:51.250]  Oh, I'm so sorry it didn't work out.
[46:51.390 --> 46:51.870]  Let's try this one.
[46:51.910 --> 46:52.750]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[46:54.370 --> 46:54.850]  Go ahead.
[46:56.190 --> 46:58.750]  All right, that was your opportunity, and it has vanished.
[46:59.490 --> 47:00.630]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:01.450 --> 47:04.050]  Yes, I'd like to play the devil's advocate here.
[47:04.230 --> 47:04.670]  Go right ahead.
[47:05.910 --> 47:23.610]  At the time of the Gulf War, this most recent one, I'm going to say specifically March 19th, I was in Brazilia, and it seems to me the most recent killers of women and children are U.S.
[47:23.730 --> 47:23.970]  troops.
[47:25.630 --> 47:26.370]  All right.
[47:27.410 --> 47:29.170]  When are you going to start playing devil's advocate?
[47:30.070 --> 47:32.290]  Well, in Brazil, they weren't killing anyone.
[47:32.290 --> 47:34.170]  They were demonstrating against the war.
[47:34.330 --> 47:36.310]  I mean, right to the highest levels of their government.
[47:36.690 --> 47:38.210]  Well, they were demonstrating here, too.
[47:38.430 --> 47:38.990]  I mean...
[47:38.990 --> 47:39.310]  Yeah.
[47:39.550 --> 47:40.070]  It was...
[47:40.450 --> 47:42.070]  I don't know that we're disagreeing.
[47:42.130 --> 47:44.030]  I mean, it was a government sanctioned.
[47:44.490 --> 47:45.190]  So, wait a minute.
[47:45.290 --> 47:45.550]  U.S.
[47:45.650 --> 47:47.170]  troops are killing Brazilian women and children?
[47:47.170 --> 47:47.430]  No, wait.
[47:47.550 --> 47:49.390]  I think we're really getting mixed up here.
[47:49.530 --> 47:49.850]  No, no.
[47:49.870 --> 47:50.470]  I'm saying...
[47:50.470 --> 47:51.050]  I'm saying...
[47:51.050 --> 47:56.730]  What I'm saying is that Brazil isn't the only place that targets women and children.
[47:56.910 --> 47:57.210]  All right?
[47:57.430 --> 47:57.810]  Oh, no.
[47:57.910 --> 47:58.310]  Of course not.
[47:58.390 --> 48:00.950]  If you want to go back in history, let's crucify the Italians.
[48:01.210 --> 48:02.710]  Because they crucified people.
[48:03.170 --> 48:03.610]  Didn't they?
[48:03.990 --> 48:04.690]  Well, yeah.
[48:04.910 --> 48:05.650]  But, you know, I'm...
[48:05.650 --> 48:05.830]  Okay.
[48:05.830 --> 48:08.710]  I simply made an off-the-cuff remark.
[48:08.930 --> 48:10.730]  The goss and the busy goss and all them.
[48:10.890 --> 48:11.170]  Mm-hmm.
[48:11.610 --> 48:11.890]  All right?
[48:11.990 --> 48:13.630]  I mean, things change and times change.
[48:13.690 --> 48:14.710]  Things change, yes.
[48:14.850 --> 48:16.810]  And I'm very happy things are changing there.
[48:17.410 --> 48:20.570]  And maybe, maybe in another month, things will change here, too.
[48:21.030 --> 48:22.410]  I think we'll need more than a month.
[48:22.550 --> 48:24.670]  Let's not go back in the past at all.
[48:24.790 --> 48:26.970]  Let's just live in the present.
[48:27.190 --> 48:30.590]  So, if you get away with a crime, 30 seconds later, you're free and clear.
[48:30.770 --> 48:32.550]  I mean, which argument do you want to make?
[48:32.570 --> 48:33.570]  You can't make both.
[48:33.570 --> 48:36.690]  You're making the argument that once it's in the past, it doesn't matter.
[48:36.810 --> 48:37.630]  Let's start a new argument.
[48:37.850 --> 48:38.210]  Good evening.
[48:38.450 --> 48:39.110]  You're on the air.
[48:40.610 --> 48:41.250]  Go ahead.
[48:42.310 --> 48:47.550]  Emmanuel, I called you a moment ago, and I just want to add one more thing about my experience with the system.
[48:47.610 --> 48:49.530]  I can imagine some right-wing reactionary.
[48:49.750 --> 48:51.850]  Well, how come you didn't pay his goddamn ticket?
[48:52.190 --> 48:54.270]  Turns out, I did pay that ticket.
[48:54.590 --> 48:58.210]  He still said, how many of you guys have receipts from 1986?
[49:00.110 --> 49:02.550]  I don't have receipts from last month, so...
[49:02.550 --> 49:02.870]  Thank you.
[49:03.250 --> 49:04.550]  And I couldn't prove it.
[49:04.970 --> 49:07.090]  They had me physically by the nuts.
[49:07.370 --> 49:07.770]  All right.
[49:07.870 --> 49:11.650]  I could do nothing, and I wanted to share that with you, because I don't want to see all those...
[49:11.650 --> 49:14.430]  Oh, well, if he would have paid his ticket, he would have never got stopped by the cop.
[49:14.570 --> 49:15.670]  I did pay the ticket.
[49:15.890 --> 49:16.090]  Yeah.
[49:16.090 --> 49:20.310]  And I couldn't prove it, and I got stuck, and that was a long story.
[49:20.510 --> 49:20.930]  All right.
[49:21.050 --> 49:21.350]  Sir.
[49:21.730 --> 49:22.910]  Thanks for telling the story.
[49:23.110 --> 49:24.290]  I couldn't help it.
[49:24.330 --> 49:38.830]  I feel it, and I know that it's just horrible going through that system, and it needs some kind of revamping and some kind of smart policing, because I'm not an anarchist.
[49:38.830 --> 49:40.130]  I know we need police.
[49:41.210 --> 49:41.930]  Thanks again.
[49:42.070 --> 49:45.490]  Let's give some other people a chance to tell any stories they may have.
[49:45.590 --> 49:45.910]  Good evening.
[49:46.150 --> 49:46.730]  You're on the air.
[49:47.750 --> 49:48.110]  Hello?
[49:48.250 --> 49:49.610]  Oh, you really need to turn that radio down.
[49:50.630 --> 49:51.250]  You got it.
[49:51.270 --> 49:51.490]  Hold on.
[49:52.310 --> 49:53.410]  You have no screener.
[49:54.690 --> 49:55.210]  What's that?
[49:55.730 --> 49:56.870]  You have no screener.
[49:56.930 --> 49:57.730]  I didn't know I was up.
[49:58.030 --> 49:58.950]  I am the screener.
[49:59.030 --> 50:00.650]  I'm the screener, and I'm also the host.
[50:01.250 --> 50:02.370]  It's two jobs in one.
[50:02.750 --> 50:03.050]  Very good.
[50:03.270 --> 50:07.790]  The band, just for more information about the band, the band is called the Infernal Noise Brigade.
[50:08.410 --> 50:09.330]  Infernal Noise Brigade?
[50:09.630 --> 50:11.850]  The band that was on 15th Street with you guys?
[50:11.990 --> 50:12.230]  Yes.
[50:12.650 --> 50:13.770]  A friend of mine was with you guys.
[50:13.850 --> 50:18.390]  In fact, just to correct any idea about a conspiracy, the band was all arrested.
[50:18.790 --> 50:21.350]  They're very well-seasoned protesters.
[50:21.670 --> 50:27.530]  They're usually at the front, and they started in WTO riot protests in Seattle.
[50:29.210 --> 50:30.210]  Four years ago, maybe?
[50:30.350 --> 50:30.530]  Right.
[50:30.710 --> 50:31.050]  1999.
[50:31.850 --> 50:32.050]  Right.
[50:33.110 --> 50:35.270]  So they had nothing to do with the police.
[50:35.290 --> 50:37.510]  I think that's what that person, Mike, was...
[50:37.510 --> 50:39.710]  I think that was suggested in jest.
[50:39.730 --> 50:42.030]  I don't think anyone could think that the band was part of a conspiracy.
[50:42.570 --> 50:42.930]  Good.
[50:43.090 --> 50:44.390]  And I didn't catch that when you said it.
[50:44.390 --> 50:51.410]  Yeah, I think the police, on the other hand, probably think the band is part of an international anarchist conspiracy and was planning on leveling the city that day.
[50:52.170 --> 50:55.050]  Yeah, I heard a couple of cops that did like that band, actually.
[50:55.330 --> 50:56.110]  They thought they were good.
[50:56.350 --> 50:56.990]  They were good.
[50:57.070 --> 50:57.590]  They were great.
[50:57.950 --> 50:58.950]  Yeah, they're usually terrific.
[50:59.030 --> 51:00.310]  I didn't actually see them that day.
[51:00.430 --> 51:08.870]  I mean, personally, I don't see anything wrong with taking a band and marching down the street and, you know, coming back to the park, which I think is what was going to happen anyway.
[51:09.270 --> 51:10.610]  Oh, it should happen every day.
[51:11.070 --> 51:13.270]  Yeah, it was kind of a festive occasion.
[51:13.270 --> 51:14.370]  Everybody was smiling.
[51:14.570 --> 51:16.550]  If you look at the video, I made a video.
[51:16.770 --> 51:17.510]  It's up on the website.
[51:17.890 --> 51:21.430]  You'll see the people, as they were walking, they weren't running.
[51:21.430 --> 51:22.950]  They weren't freaking out.
[51:23.010 --> 51:26.050]  They were basically just sort of hanging out on a nice, pleasant day.
[51:26.250 --> 51:27.950]  It's sort of like a street fair.
[51:28.070 --> 51:31.470]  Yeah, it wasn't an authorized street fair, but most of the people had no way of knowing that.
[51:31.470 --> 51:35.970]  Oh, no, it's clear that their tactic was preemptive, just to keep people...
[51:35.970 --> 51:39.230]  Anytime a large group moved, they surrounded them anywhere.
[51:39.490 --> 51:41.850]  It happened uptown, Union Square.
[51:41.990 --> 51:43.190]  It happened down at World Trade Center.
[51:43.430 --> 51:44.790]  It was a preemptive tactic.
[51:44.990 --> 51:46.090]  Yes, absolutely.
[51:46.390 --> 51:47.090]  Thanks for your call.
[51:47.450 --> 51:49.610]  They didn't have a sound permit.
[51:50.310 --> 51:51.090]  Too loud.
[51:51.830 --> 51:57.410]  When you don't have a sound permit, that means you can't get, you know, speakers and things, but you can make noise.
[51:57.410 --> 52:03.870]  Well, the band I'm in, we play every year on the steps of the post office on April 15th.
[52:03.910 --> 52:04.210]  Uh-huh.
[52:04.970 --> 52:09.550]  And I was there last year, and every year, apparently, we get turned away because we don't have a permit to play loudly.
[52:10.210 --> 52:10.510]  Really?
[52:10.810 --> 52:11.030]  Yeah.
[52:11.330 --> 52:12.750]  We get sent away after a song.
[52:12.750 --> 52:14.210]  Do you need a permit to speak loudly?
[52:15.230 --> 52:19.010]  Actually, what we did, we put our instruments down last time and shouted all our parts.
[52:19.430 --> 52:19.950]  What'd they do?
[52:20.030 --> 52:20.550]  They were confused.
[52:20.550 --> 52:21.290]  They didn't do anything.
[52:21.770 --> 52:24.490]  They were looking in the books, trying to find a statute to charge you with it.
[52:24.630 --> 52:25.830]  But at least they would do that, you know?
[52:27.410 --> 52:29.270]  Go away, and we're going to sort it out later.
[52:29.570 --> 52:30.250]  Leo, did you have something?
[52:30.650 --> 52:38.090]  I was just going to say that, remember that the decibel level for loud noise was something like of a really loud motorcycle.
[52:38.810 --> 52:42.330]  So I can't imagine a marching band would be louder than that.
[52:42.490 --> 52:43.990]  If you stuck your head in the drum, maybe.
[52:44.210 --> 52:49.450]  Well, no, I can assure you that a marching band can be louder than a motorcycle.
[52:49.450 --> 52:50.850]  It depends where you're standing, though.
[52:51.010 --> 52:51.470]  It really does.
[52:51.470 --> 52:52.830]  Lots of horns and drums are...
[52:52.830 --> 52:57.790]  But regardless, that 150 decibel thing that the police wheeled out, that's...
[52:58.270 --> 52:59.590]  Oh, you're talking about the sound weapon?
[52:59.750 --> 53:01.790]  The sound weapon, yeah, on the Hummer.
[53:01.890 --> 53:04.070]  I'll send you links to the pictures of that.
[53:04.210 --> 53:04.770]  People put it up.
[53:04.770 --> 53:06.790]  Why don't you just look on the site, and you'll see my pictures of that.
[53:06.910 --> 53:07.750]  Actually, you know what?
[53:07.750 --> 53:09.670]  Those pictures aren't up yet, because that was on the 29th.
[53:09.790 --> 53:11.050]  But they will be up, I promise.
[53:11.610 --> 53:14.950]  Yeah, a lot of people saw that, and it was kind of intimidating.
[53:15.570 --> 53:16.030]  Good evening.
[53:16.130 --> 53:16.590]  You're on the air.
[53:17.890 --> 53:18.210]  Hello.
[53:18.210 --> 53:18.870]  How are you doing?
[53:19.450 --> 53:19.650]  Hi.
[53:20.270 --> 53:22.330]  I'm really sorry to hear that you got arrested.
[53:22.730 --> 53:23.090]  Thanks.
[53:24.130 --> 53:35.850]  I was just calling in because I marched in the big giant one on Sunday with half a million people, and I didn't see a whole lot of arrests, but I heard, you know, the entire week of arrests.
[53:36.090 --> 53:43.190]  And I just thought it was interesting that not very many people got arrested during the giant day, and all these massive arrests happened on the other days.
[53:43.790 --> 53:50.310]  And it seemed like that the police were just out to arrest people and fill up that bus terminal, you know?
[53:50.490 --> 53:52.370]  It's like they had to do something, right?
[53:52.570 --> 53:59.370]  Well, it's interesting how the mayor said, or the police commissioner, or maybe both, said that they were prepared to make 1,000 arrests a day.
[53:59.430 --> 53:59.850]  And what did they do?
[53:59.890 --> 54:01.510]  They made 1,000 arrests in a day.
[54:01.910 --> 54:04.390]  You know, almost like they were testing out that system.
[54:04.650 --> 54:12.630]  I think if they had moved on Sunday against a lot of people, they would have had a situation completely out of control, because there were half a million people there.
[54:12.790 --> 54:13.730]  Who did they move against?
[54:13.830 --> 54:16.850]  They did make arrests, especially in the Times Square area later that night.
[54:17.210 --> 54:21.030]  But nothing, nothing like what they did on the days following it.
[54:21.030 --> 54:28.790]  I guess they figured, you know, it's a weekday, there are less witnesses, less people will support these crazy people that are trying to shut down the city.
[54:29.450 --> 54:31.930]  And I think they made the wrong gamble there.
[54:31.930 --> 54:37.530]  What you have to remember, though, is that the protests that were later in the week, a lot of them were not permitted.
[54:37.750 --> 54:47.150]  Now, I don't agree with the fact that you need to get a permit for a protest, but, you know, these mass arrests were mainly, you know, he was walking down the street where they were not permitted to have a protest.
[54:47.630 --> 54:51.690]  Now, I mean, it's terrible that you shouldn't need to get a permit to have a protest.
[54:53.150 --> 54:58.390]  That doesn't make any sense that someone has to allow you to voice your opinion, but that's the way it is.
[54:58.390 --> 55:05.330]  And it's sort of like, they say, well, you have free speech, because we're giving you the chance to have free speech, but you have to go through us first.
[55:05.510 --> 55:11.050]  But, you know, there's one instance that I read somewhere, I think it was on Indy Media, there's so many accounts that are being posted.
[55:11.470 --> 55:16.770]  But this was apparently a place where somebody was said to maybe be demonstrating.
[55:17.210 --> 55:18.910]  There was so much media there.
[55:19.350 --> 55:21.810]  Every network was represented, every local station was represented.
[55:21.990 --> 55:26.730]  There were so many police there, every kind, you know, riot helmets, scooters, helicopters.
[55:26.730 --> 55:30.570]  There was one protester, one protester showed up.
[55:30.870 --> 55:37.950]  And the police went up to this protester with the mobs of media and cops around said, you're blocking the sidewalk.
[55:38.250 --> 55:39.610]  They arrested her.
[55:39.790 --> 55:41.090]  They arrested her.
[55:41.190 --> 55:42.230]  This really happened.
[55:42.830 --> 55:48.210]  That's just, it boggles the imagination, what these orders were that they were following.
[55:48.210 --> 55:50.830]  Well, I also just wanted to say, am I still on the air?
[55:50.970 --> 55:51.350]  Yes, go ahead.
[55:51.570 --> 55:52.050]  I'm sorry.
[55:52.530 --> 55:58.670]  That I marched in the big peace protest last February also, and also in the World Economic Forum march.
[55:58.850 --> 56:05.870]  And both of those times, people were herded into pens and stopped, even though those protests were permitted.
[56:06.190 --> 56:08.990]  And that didn't get a whole lot of coverage whatsoever.
[56:09.830 --> 56:15.610]  And also, I saw horses trampling people at the No Blood for Oil 1 last February 15th.
[56:15.670 --> 56:19.370]  And I mean, there was people getting trampled by horses, like right and left.
[56:19.450 --> 56:22.790]  And I didn't hear a whole lot about that on the media after that either.
[56:22.790 --> 56:31.910]  So I'm just glad that you guys are reporting this, you know, this whole last RNC thing, because it was so much larger than anything I would have ever imagined.
[56:31.910 --> 56:33.650]  And it's very exciting.
[56:33.890 --> 56:36.450]  But I just, you know, hope everybody out there knows that.
[56:36.450 --> 56:41.710]  You know what else is very therapeutic for those people who were involved, just to be able to express themselves somehow.
[56:41.850 --> 56:48.870]  And I urge everybody who has not already done so, either talk to a friend, write something down, express yourself somehow.
[56:48.990 --> 56:50.770]  The worst thing you can do is bottle this up.
[56:50.830 --> 56:56.570]  Because what happened to you, in all likelihood, I think in 99% of the cases was a complete injustice.
[56:57.450 --> 57:01.230]  And you're probably feeling something very painful as a result of that.
[57:01.390 --> 57:03.230]  And it's not good to keep it inside.
[57:03.230 --> 57:07.470]  I feel much better having, A, talk to people, and B, written it all down.
[57:07.750 --> 57:10.810]  And I hope people go to the website, look it over, and please comment.
[57:10.930 --> 57:12.410]  I'd like to hear people's comments on it.
[57:12.430 --> 57:15.270]  I know it's a lot of reading, a lot of pictures, and a lot of video to go through.
[57:15.410 --> 57:18.270]  But it's important, I think, that we look through all this.
[57:19.190 --> 57:25.170]  Again, it's www.2600.com slash rnc2000... 2004?
[57:25.410 --> 57:25.670]  Was that it?
[57:25.670 --> 57:27.110]  I think... I'm pretty sure it's rnc2000.
[57:27.110 --> 57:28.110]  I don't even know.
[57:28.190 --> 57:30.230]  But it's linked on the main page.
[57:30.470 --> 57:32.490]  And there's just a lot there.
[57:32.530 --> 57:34.270]  I tried to recount everything that happened.
[57:34.770 --> 57:40.330]  And Bernie, just in closing, that's important, isn't it, to try to remember everything that took place?
[57:40.330 --> 57:44.490]  If you don't document everything while it's fresh in your mind, you're going to forget crucial facts.
[57:44.650 --> 57:52.250]  And so, as a good reporter, I think you... I mean, I think you were an actual reporter in documenting this stuff in real time, as you were there.
[57:52.390 --> 57:57.070]  I mean, both audio, video, and then as soon as you were able to write, you wrote it all down.
[57:57.150 --> 57:58.190]  I had three things on my shoulder.
[57:58.530 --> 57:59.430]  I was impressed.
[57:59.710 --> 58:00.670]  I've got to ask you, Emmanuel.
[58:00.850 --> 58:10.310]  If people had had pairs of scissors with them, you know, the harmless con that aren't pointy on the end you get when you're in kindergarten, could they have cut through this mesh netting stuff?
[58:10.310 --> 58:11.890]  And, like, freed people?
[58:12.090 --> 58:12.530]  Well, yeah.
[58:12.590 --> 58:15.150]  It's not like the cops would have just stood there and let them do it, though.
[58:15.770 --> 58:15.950]  Ah.
[58:16.070 --> 58:17.470]  Well, I mean, if everybody had scissors.
[58:17.710 --> 58:18.490]  I'm just wondering.
[58:18.710 --> 58:23.770]  The orange netting really wasn't something that kept people from escaping.
[58:23.890 --> 58:26.930]  What kept people from escaping were the big, mean cops that were standing next to it.
[58:27.430 --> 58:27.630]  Okay.
[58:28.110 --> 58:28.570]  All right.
[58:28.650 --> 58:32.630]  Thanks very much for being here, and thanks, everybody, for writing to us.
[58:32.990 --> 58:37.830]  Again, our web address or our email address, othat2600.com.
[58:38.850 --> 58:43.310]  And please let us know what happened to you, any feedback that you might have.
[58:43.710 --> 58:46.430]  And whatever you do, please keep telling your story.
[58:46.570 --> 58:47.370]  Let people know what's happening.
[58:47.910 --> 58:50.610]  We'll be back again next week, hopefully talking about other things as well.
[58:50.970 --> 58:53.710]  Until then, Emmanuel Goldstein, for everybody else, have yourselves a good night.
[59:24.450 --> 59:25.830]  We'll be back again next week.
[59:52.630 --> 59:55.830]  Came back again next week.
[59:57.570 --> 01:00:02.470]  I'm still alive to tell my story.
[01:00:05.330 --> 01:00:10.590]  Early, early this morning, I arose from my slumber.
[01:00:10.890 --> 01:00:17.670]  And when I looked through my belly button window, they were all around, all around.
[01:00:17.950 --> 01:00:25.730]  I see no faces, I hear a mouse voices ordering everybody just what to do.
[01:00:25.830 --> 01:00:27.870]  You can make a move now.
[01:00:31.550 --> 01:00:36.690]  Is then I remember, Gigi and a baby brother.
[01:00:38.210 --> 01:00:40.970]  How they would suffer so fast.
[01:00:41.370 --> 01:00:43.310]  I'm the only breadwinner.
[01:00:43.630 --> 01:00:46.850]  Was when I still threw fence and over the wall.
[01:00:47.090 --> 01:00:50.130]  And there he was standing so big and tall.
[01:00:50.490 --> 01:00:52.970]  Said don't make a move as I shoot you.
[01:00:53.910 --> 01:00:56.550]  He'll never see the dust of my shoes.
[01:00:57.050 --> 01:00:59.710]  He'll never see the lights of my shoes.
[01:01:00.030 --> 01:01:02.450]  And I've got to be raised.
[01:01:02.850 --> 01:01:03.990]  I'm still alive.
[01:01:03.990 --> 01:01:07.230]  You keep your glory.
[01:01:07.590 --> 01:01:08.050]  Yeah.
[01:01:09.170 --> 01:01:10.370]  I'm still alive.
[01:01:11.730 --> 01:01:13.850]  That's my story.
[01:01:14.990 --> 01:01:16.970]  I'm still alive.
[01:01:21.470 --> 01:01:23.330]  I'm still alive.
[01:01:23.330 --> 01:01:23.770]  And we are back.
[01:01:23.910 --> 01:01:24.430]  We are back.
[01:01:24.770 --> 01:01:25.010]  We are back.