[00:00.000 --> 00:07.260]  ...ring to a ceasefire and to demobilize their 12,000 fighters by 2006 in exchange for negotiations.
[00:07.680 --> 00:17.960]  But during the last two years, 92 Conquamos have been assassinated and the AUC is believed to be responsible for 70% of those killings.
[00:18.380 --> 00:23.160]  Freddy Arias' brother, Jaime Arias, who is the elected governor of the Conquamos.
[00:25.980 --> 00:36.940]  It's clear to us that the assassination was to silence the Conquamo indigenous organization so that we don't continue denouncing the atrocities and the extermination we've been experiencing.
[00:37.480 --> 00:47.240]  These armed actors want to make us submit, by blood and fire, to their interests that aren't political but economic, that involve strategic resources like water and biodiversity.
[00:47.480 --> 00:51.760]  So this is a clear message that those who speak will be killed.
[00:53.720 --> 01:05.760]  At the Army's batallon in the city of Valle Dupar, where Freddy Arias was killed, Lieutenant Colonel Figueroa says that, as far as he knows, the AUC was responsible for killing Arias.
[01:06.120 --> 01:22.680]  Colonel Figueroa also says that he has never been informed of an official AUC ceasefire and that, in his region, AUC and guerrilla operations continue as normal, striving for an economic and territorial control of the region.
[01:25.820 --> 01:37.660]  Maybe on television, you see a process of negotiation, or that the AUC and government are talking, but I've never received an official document saying that the self-defense forces have declared a ceasefire.
[01:40.060 --> 01:45.840]  Last April, the paramilitaries killed some 30 Wayu Indians who live on the peninsula of the Guajira.
[01:46.180 --> 01:51.120]  Because of the massacre, more than 600 Wayu fled across the border into Venezuela.
[01:51.120 --> 02:01.980]  Carmen Bascan is Wayu, and explains that the Wayu people live in family clans on the Guajira Peninsula that is divided between Colombia and Venezuela.
[02:02.360 --> 02:20.960]  There had never been armed actors among the Wayu, but Bascan says that the paramilitaries came three years ago, committing violence in an effort to displace people and control the Wayu land that encompasses uncontrolled border territory between Colombia and Venezuela.
[02:21.860 --> 02:25.320]  Bascan's family, or clan, has 179 members.
[02:25.580 --> 02:30.940]  During the last three years, more than 26 people from her family have been killed.
[02:31.220 --> 02:36.460]  My uncle and grandfather were killed.
[02:36.460 --> 02:39.920]  They were chased in three cars by armed men with guns of war.
[02:39.920 --> 02:45.320]  It was the paramilitaries that killed my uncle and grandfather, with the objective of controlling their land.
[02:45.500 --> 02:48.240]  This territory has been my family's for all of our lives.
[02:48.240 --> 02:52.000]  My family can't return to the land because the paramilitaries won't let them.
[02:52.180 --> 02:53.200]  They have to ask permission.
[02:53.700 --> 02:57.560]  They couldn't go out to certain parts of the village because they suffered threats and persecution.
[03:00.000 --> 03:16.660]  While Bascan and other indigenous leaders denounced the murders being authorized by AUC leaders sitting at the negotiating table, on September 27th, Colombia Media released taped conversations between the government peace commissioner, Luis Carlos Restrepo,
[03:16.940 --> 03:29.080]  and AUC leaders, where the peace commissioner appears to be telling leaders that he had downplayed reports of AUC murders in the zone where talks are taking place.
[03:29.260 --> 03:32.680]  From Bogota, I'm Nicole Carson for Free Speech Radio News.
[03:35.040 --> 03:37.080]  This is Free Speech Radio News.
[03:37.340 --> 03:38.320]  I'm Deepa Fernandes.
[03:42.040 --> 03:46.880]  And at 7.01, you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[03:47.100 --> 03:48.920]  It's time for Off the Hook.
[03:54.200 --> 04:16.080]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Funded me bomb But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood Funded me bomb
[04:41.670 --> 04:44.110]  Pizza Palace Guaranteed hot in 30 minutes or it's free.
[04:44.230 --> 04:44.650]  This is Mary.
[04:44.730 --> 04:45.370]  May I take your order?
[04:45.570 --> 04:46.570]  Hi, Mary.
[04:46.990 --> 04:48.150]  Yes, I'd like to order.
[04:48.390 --> 04:49.170]  Is this Mr. Kelly?
[04:49.770 --> 04:50.230]  Yes.
[04:50.590 --> 04:51.650]  Thank you for calling again, sir.
[04:52.070 --> 04:57.770]  I share your national identification number is 610-204-999-8-45-54610.
[04:57.770 --> 04:58.370]  Is that correct?
[04:58.590 --> 04:59.530]  Uh, yes.
[04:59.530 --> 05:00.650]  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
[05:00.910 --> 05:03.010]  I see you live at 736 Montrose Corp.
[05:03.030 --> 05:04.150]  But you're calling from your cell phone.
[05:04.230 --> 05:04.690]  Are you at home?
[05:04.870 --> 05:06.330]  I'm just leaving work, but I'm...
[05:06.330 --> 05:07.830]  Oh, we can deliver to Bob's Auto Supply.
[05:07.970 --> 05:09.730]  That's at 175 Lincoln Avenue, yes?
[05:09.830 --> 05:10.050]  No.
[05:10.370 --> 05:11.390]  I'm on my way home.
[05:11.890 --> 05:13.210]  How do you know all this stuff?
[05:13.390 --> 05:14.950]  We just got wired into the system, sir.
[05:15.230 --> 05:15.550]  Oh.
[05:16.470 --> 05:19.130]  Well, I'd like to order a couple of your double meat special pizzas.
[05:19.470 --> 05:19.950]  Sure thing.
[05:20.250 --> 05:22.010]  There'll be a new $20 charge for those, sir.
[05:22.310 --> 05:22.970]  What do you mean?
[05:23.570 --> 05:27.890]  Sir, the system shows me that your medical records indicate that you have high blood pressure and extremely high cholesterol.
[05:28.290 --> 05:34.770]  Luckily, we have a new agreement with your national health care provider that allows us to sell you double meat pies as long as you agree to waive all future claims of liability.
[05:34.970 --> 05:35.230]  What?
[05:35.450 --> 05:36.030]  Do you agree, sir?
[05:36.210 --> 05:38.870]  You can sign the form when we deliver, but there is a charge for processing.
[05:39.010 --> 05:40.390]  The total is $67 even.
[05:40.930 --> 05:41.330]  $67?
[05:41.970 --> 05:46.950]  Well, that includes the delivery surcharge of $15 to cover the added risk to our driver of traveling through an orange zone.
[05:47.210 --> 05:48.770]  I live in an orange zone?
[05:48.870 --> 05:49.390]  Now you do.
[05:49.670 --> 05:51.950]  Looks like there was another robbery on Montrose yesterday.
[05:52.750 --> 05:53.090]  Hmm.
[05:53.710 --> 05:57.910]  You could save $48 if you ordered our special Sprout submarine combo and picked it up yourself.
[05:58.310 --> 05:59.390]  Comes with tofu sticks.
[05:59.510 --> 06:00.850]  Those are very tasty, sir.
[06:00.970 --> 06:01.710]  Good value, too.
[06:01.710 --> 06:02.990]  But I want double meat.
[06:03.570 --> 06:06.030]  Well, I'm sure you can afford the $67, then.
[06:06.310 --> 06:07.830]  You just bought those tickets to Hawaii.
[06:08.050 --> 06:08.870]  They weren't cheap, eh?
[06:09.630 --> 06:10.050]  Oh.
[06:10.490 --> 06:14.050]  But I see you checked out the budget beach bomb at the library last week.
[06:14.610 --> 06:14.970]  Hmm.
[06:15.530 --> 06:16.450]  Up to you, sir.
[06:16.570 --> 06:17.450]  All right, all right.
[06:17.770 --> 06:19.650]  I'll get the Sprout subs.
[06:19.910 --> 06:20.650]  Good choice, sir.
[06:21.150 --> 06:22.950]  Gotta watch that waste if you're hitting the beach, eh?
[06:23.770 --> 06:24.650]  42 inches.
[06:25.210 --> 06:25.630]  Wow.
[06:26.350 --> 06:29.310]  Man, I'd say tofu and sprouts is, like, required.
[06:29.450 --> 06:30.290]  That's how much?
[06:30.290 --> 06:34.550]  Just between you and me, there's a $3 off coupon in this month's Total Men's Fitness magazine.
[06:34.810 --> 06:36.370]  Your wife, Betty, subscribes to that, right?
[06:36.910 --> 06:39.230]  Anyhow, clip that and it's $19.99 even.
[06:39.830 --> 06:42.330]  Whoa, looks like you maxed out on all your credit cards.
[06:42.530 --> 06:43.330]  Bring cash, okay?
[06:44.570 --> 06:45.010]  Okay.
[06:46.370 --> 06:51.330]  And that comes to us courtesy of a website called prisonplanet.com.
[06:51.350 --> 06:58.530]  In fact, I'll give you the exact URL for this nightmare scenario, which I'm sure people listening in the future will wonder what we're talking about because this happens every day.
[06:58.530 --> 07:11.550]  www.prisonplanet.com slash articles slash August 2004 slash 260804perspective.htm And you can play that to your heart's content.
[07:11.930 --> 07:12.890]  Bernie, what do you think of that?
[07:13.050 --> 07:13.510]  Frightening, huh?
[07:14.090 --> 07:14.570]  Great stuff.
[07:14.950 --> 07:15.550]  Yeah, yeah.
[07:17.610 --> 07:19.310]  And it's the kind of thing that happens.
[07:19.490 --> 07:19.770]  Sorry?
[07:19.890 --> 07:24.390]  I remember the first time that ever happened to me was years ago when I had an American Express card.
[07:24.390 --> 07:26.030]  This was probably like six, seven years ago.
[07:26.030 --> 07:29.570]  More than that, actually, nine years ago, before I was put away.
[07:29.770 --> 07:34.190]  And I called American Express, and I knew who I was when I called.
[07:34.190 --> 07:38.030]  I just called the 800 number, and I didn't have caller...
[07:38.030 --> 07:39.630]  This was before caller ID.
[07:40.570 --> 07:46.810]  And apparently that freaked out so many customers when they would answer the phone and say, hello, Mr. Bernie S, or whatever.
[07:47.050 --> 07:49.630]  They stopped doing it because it was just freaking them out.
[07:49.630 --> 07:51.350]  But now it just comes up in the screen, and they know.
[07:52.350 --> 07:52.670]  Yeah.
[07:53.110 --> 07:58.670]  And years ago, when we first started talking about caller ID, I think people were afraid this kind of thing would happen all the time.
[07:58.890 --> 08:01.590]  It happens, but it happens in more insidious ways.
[08:02.290 --> 08:05.090]  And this is a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what?
[08:05.090 --> 08:10.430]  All that information is accessible, or it will be accessible, to all kinds of people who have no right to know about it.
[08:10.950 --> 08:19.770]  So it's something to think about when you're checking out in the supermarket and you give them your customer ID number, and they know everything that you've been buying.
[08:20.070 --> 08:21.210]  It's kind of frightening.
[08:21.490 --> 08:23.530]  In the future, there will be free tofu sticks.
[08:23.690 --> 08:24.290]  Sounds good to me.
[08:24.490 --> 08:25.170]  Well, yeah.
[08:25.170 --> 08:30.150]  I guess they can reel you in with that, but I don't know.
[08:30.210 --> 08:31.230]  It's just not enough somehow.
[08:31.670 --> 08:34.670]  I got this interesting bit of trivia, too.
[08:34.770 --> 08:36.190]  Actually, it turns out it's a bit late.
[08:36.310 --> 08:38.750]  This is the third annual Nigerian email conference.
[08:38.990 --> 08:39.750]  Did you hear about this?
[08:40.270 --> 08:41.230]  Write better emails.
[08:41.690 --> 08:42.130]  Yeah.
[08:43.210 --> 08:46.970]  And this is organized by Mr. Laurent Mepete Kabila.
[08:47.830 --> 08:52.370]  He presents to us an urgent and confidential request of our attendance at the third annual...
[08:52.370 --> 08:54.370]  He's related to Joseph, I assume?
[08:54.730 --> 08:55.170]  Probably.
[08:55.390 --> 08:57.770]  I think his brother was the...
[08:57.770 --> 08:58.130]  Okay.
[08:58.270 --> 08:58.810]  Something or other.
[08:58.890 --> 08:59.130]  Prince.
[08:59.370 --> 08:59.730]  Yeah.
[09:00.250 --> 09:06.950]  Anyway, it's over, like I said, but I figured it might be nice to go over some of the things that were discussed.
[09:07.410 --> 09:11.310]  Like most Nigerians, you're probably finding that it's increasingly difficult to earn a decent living from email.
[09:12.090 --> 09:15.050]  That's why you need to attend the third annual Nigerian email conference.
[09:16.210 --> 09:18.110]  This conference is an investment in your future.
[09:18.250 --> 09:21.450]  Learn to take advantage of modern technology and make a great deal of money with very little effort.
[09:21.890 --> 09:25.410]  If you have any questions, please contact me, and I will send you a proposal that may be of interest to you.
[09:25.410 --> 09:29.290]  I await your response by return while assuring you that the transaction is absolutely risk-free.
[09:29.510 --> 09:30.110]  Well, okay.
[09:30.450 --> 09:31.190]  Never mind all that.
[09:31.270 --> 09:33.490]  But some of the things that they actually talked about.
[09:33.690 --> 09:40.370]  There is a lively debate between Lady Miriam Abacha and Mr. Godwin Ayathalam.
[09:40.530 --> 09:42.710]  And I'm probably mangling these names, and I apologize to them for this.
[09:42.890 --> 09:46.090]  The topic was the effectiveness of using all uppercase characters.
[09:47.610 --> 09:54.450]  In practical discussion, Malam Ahmad Abacha answers the question, are 10 million emails a day too many?
[09:55.230 --> 09:59.310]  Find out how banking systems throughout the world operate with special emphasis on money transfers.
[10:00.090 --> 10:03.190]  Soliciting via cell phone text messaging, can it work?
[10:05.570 --> 10:07.670]  Grammatical errors, what's the optimal number?
[10:09.110 --> 10:13.190]  And finally, a roundtable discussion is email now Nigeria's top export.
[10:13.410 --> 10:15.050]  Well, I'm sure there'll be another one of these.
[10:15.050 --> 10:18.290]  This took place last November, November 7th through 9th, 2003.
[10:19.290 --> 10:23.590]  And it was a bargain too, only $995 per attendee to attend this thing.
[10:23.750 --> 10:29.830]  So I'll pass this around if you guys are interested in perhaps chartering a plane, heading over there for next time.
[10:29.870 --> 10:31.630]  If it's annual, it's going to be coming up.
[10:31.770 --> 10:32.430]  You'd think.
[10:32.450 --> 10:38.230]  But, you know, I searched all over the site, and I could not find any more details on what's coming up this...
[10:38.230 --> 10:40.630]  Maybe it's a biannual thing, every two years.
[10:40.850 --> 10:44.070]  Does this $995, does that include airfare?
[10:44.070 --> 10:50.130]  You know, I'm not affiliated with it officially, so I can't really say what the money goes towards.
[10:50.350 --> 10:52.230]  Because if it includes airfare, it's not a bad deal.
[10:52.230 --> 10:52.930]  I don't think it does.
[10:53.110 --> 10:53.930]  No, I don't think it does.
[10:53.970 --> 10:54.970]  What about kidney removal?
[10:55.710 --> 11:00.370]  I think you're in the wrong story for that particular scenario.
[11:00.770 --> 11:01.790]  Anyway, moving on.
[11:02.630 --> 11:08.110]  The American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit against the Secret Service.
[11:08.290 --> 11:14.990]  The headline reads, Secret Service and White House charged with violating free speech rights in ACLU lawsuit.
[11:15.910 --> 11:17.850]  I mean, isn't that what they're for, Bernie?
[11:18.770 --> 11:18.970]  You know?
[11:18.990 --> 11:20.610]  In my experience, it's their forte.
[11:20.890 --> 11:25.870]  I don't understand why the ACLU is suing them for doing what they're supposed to be doing, violating free speech rights.
[11:25.890 --> 11:28.310]  That's what I always understood them to be all about.
[11:28.310 --> 11:41.110]  They basically filed a lawsuit against the Secret Service and Greg Jenkins, deputy assistant to the president and director of White House Advance, on behalf of a West Virginia couple who were arrested.
[11:41.110 --> 11:42.090]  Do you hear about this?
[11:42.270 --> 11:51.330]  They were arrested at a 4th of July presidential appearance at the state capitol in West Virginia because they were wearing t-shirts critical of the president.
[11:51.810 --> 11:54.050]  Now, these weren't obscene t-shirts.
[11:54.050 --> 11:57.170]  These weren't things that would make you cover your eyes.
[11:57.170 --> 12:02.250]  They simply had the word Bush with a line through it, which I guess, you know, that word might make some people...
[12:02.250 --> 12:03.110]  I'm going to cover my eyes for that.
[12:03.110 --> 12:03.950]  I don't want to see it.
[12:04.870 --> 12:11.690]  This is a simple case at ACLU's senior staff attorney, Chris Hansen, who is the lead counsel in the case.
[12:11.810 --> 12:17.190]  Two Americans went to see their president and to express their disagreement with his policies respectfully and peacefully.
[12:17.490 --> 12:19.730]  They were arrested at the direction of federal officials.
[12:19.730 --> 12:23.810]  This is precisely what the First Amendment was adopted to prevent.
[12:24.530 --> 12:25.730]  Makes sense to me.
[12:26.850 --> 12:37.870]  Although the couple stood peacefully on the public grounds with the rest of the audience, two men believed to be working for the Secret Service or White House approached the ranks and demanded that...
[12:37.870 --> 12:39.490]  Oh, the couple's name is...
[12:39.490 --> 12:40.330]  Did I give their name?
[12:40.430 --> 12:41.050]  No, they're the ranks.
[12:41.190 --> 12:42.350]  Jeff Rank and his wife, Nicole.
[12:43.790 --> 12:57.150]  They approached them and demanded that they remove or cover their t-shirts when the couple refused the officials instruct the city police to arrest Jeff and Nicole, causing them to be removed from the Capitol grounds in handcuffs, jailed for one to two hours,
[12:57.170 --> 12:58.530]  and charged with trespassing.
[12:59.430 --> 13:03.970]  Nicole Rank was also temporarily suspended from her work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
[13:04.650 --> 13:09.410]  We wanted to see the president speak and express our disagreement in what little way we could, said Nicole Rank.
[13:11.050 --> 13:14.370]  We never imagined that we would end up in jail because of a homemade t-shirt.
[13:14.510 --> 13:22.170]  You know, what's interesting here is that the local authorities would simply do whatever the Secret Service told them to do.
[13:22.410 --> 13:24.330]  Bernie, doesn't that strike you as a bit shocking?
[13:24.610 --> 13:34.730]  Not just local authorities, but even local shopping mall guards have been known to do unconstitutional things that the Secret Service is bidding.
[13:34.890 --> 13:38.830]  And certain court officials, too, as far as I can recall, judges and district attorneys.
[13:38.830 --> 13:42.690]  I'm trying to remember the exact case, but I remember somebody I know was a victim of that once.
[13:42.830 --> 13:43.670]  Yeah, that sounds familiar.
[13:45.630 --> 13:51.370]  Secret Service tells you to do things, and I guess a lot of weak-minded people will do them.
[13:51.530 --> 14:08.550]  It's amazing that they just seem to have this aura about them, like they're the superfly cops, that all the other lower-echelon law enforcement people just so much wish they were one of these guys that they'll do anything to please them.
[14:08.770 --> 14:18.210]  And I've seen that look in other law enforcement officials' eyes when they're talking to a Secret Service agent, and they're just enamored with the whole concept.
[14:18.390 --> 14:18.690]  It's just...
[14:18.690 --> 14:19.210]  It's amazing.
[14:20.830 --> 14:22.450]  You know, there is an aura about them.
[14:22.530 --> 14:30.630]  I wouldn't define it as that kind of an aura, but there certainly is an aura that I see, and I guess it's an aura that other people see and react in different ways.
[14:30.730 --> 14:31.630]  But it's troubling.
[14:32.190 --> 14:34.370]  You know, Emmanuel, you mentioned the ACLU.
[14:34.530 --> 14:36.090]  They had a court victory today.
[14:36.310 --> 14:36.770]  Did they?
[14:37.130 --> 14:37.390]  Yeah.
[14:37.870 --> 14:37.970]  Yeah.
[14:37.970 --> 14:59.390]  Today, a federal court struck down an entire Patriot Act provision that gives the government unchecked authority to issue, quote, national security letters, end quote, to obtain sensitive customer records from Internet service providers and other businesses without judicial oversight.
[14:59.690 --> 15:14.270]  And the court, which the judge said democracy abhors undue secrecy, also found that a broad gag provision in the law was constituted unconstitutional prior restraint on free speech.
[15:14.370 --> 15:30.830]  That's the part that said the secret the Internet service provider employees couldn't tell anybody that they'd receive one of these national security letters telling them to cough up some confidential data about one of their customers without any judicial oversight.
[15:31.030 --> 15:32.050]  So this is a victory.
[15:32.350 --> 15:42.210]  And it's kind of ironic that the Patriot Act is trying the people behind the Patriot Act are trying to expand it now and yet federal courts are striking down provisions of it as unconstitutional.
[15:42.470 --> 15:44.470]  So they still use doing some good stuff out there.
[15:44.510 --> 15:46.850]  Now, there's talk of expanding the Patriot Act.
[15:46.950 --> 15:48.990]  Now, isn't the Patriot Act up for renewal?
[15:49.550 --> 15:49.970]  Next year.
[15:50.210 --> 15:54.350]  Now, it seems like that should be the discussion whether or not this was a good idea in the first place.
[15:54.750 --> 15:56.970]  You know, not expanding upon it.
[15:57.430 --> 15:58.750]  You know, what happened to that first debate?
[15:59.710 --> 16:06.070]  That was the main reason I think a lot of people voted for that there was this sunset provision which was only three years.
[16:07.390 --> 16:14.030]  Well, that's another thing to pay attention to when you vote next month or in November.
[16:14.210 --> 16:17.110]  Except who is taking a stand against the Patriot Act?
[16:17.250 --> 16:18.130]  That's a good point.
[16:18.370 --> 16:20.390]  Well, we know where this president stands.
[16:20.750 --> 16:21.170]  Okay.
[16:21.390 --> 16:27.190]  So we just, you know, there's like there's the evil you know and there's what you don't know.
[16:28.170 --> 16:33.270]  Yeah, at this point, you know, I'd go for rule by Martians because anything's got to be better.
[16:34.470 --> 16:36.610]  But it'll be interesting the next couple of months anyway.
[16:37.090 --> 16:37.310]  Very.
[16:37.870 --> 16:39.410]  Okay, we have new U.S.
[16:39.470 --> 16:41.830]  travel restrictions that have been put into place.
[16:42.990 --> 16:49.930]  That's what we've been telling you about for a few months now where basically you have to get your fingerprints taken or one fingerprint taken.
[16:50.090 --> 16:52.130]  This has been going on for some countries.
[16:52.130 --> 16:54.910]  Now I believe it's going on for everybody?
[16:55.170 --> 16:55.810]  Almost everybody?
[16:55.810 --> 17:01.150]  All the countries that were all the citizens of countries that were previously excluded under the U.S.
[17:01.450 --> 17:12.950]  visa waiver program now must also be fingerprinted and have the facial you know photographs taken upon entry into this country.
[17:13.030 --> 17:13.670]  There's quite a list.
[17:13.810 --> 17:16.750]  I've got a list of about 20 countries here who have now been added to this.
[17:17.090 --> 17:23.330]  Well, since we have listeners around the world why don't you read those countries so they can moan out and in great pain together.
[17:23.630 --> 17:25.450]  Well, it's just every country, right?
[17:26.610 --> 17:27.570]  Well, um...
[17:27.570 --> 17:28.230]  Except Canada.
[17:29.070 --> 17:30.570]  Yep, Canada's not on this.
[17:30.930 --> 17:33.090]  Well, why don't you read off those 20 countries anyway?
[17:33.190 --> 17:34.290]  Mexico's not in here either.
[17:34.530 --> 17:34.710]  Really?
[17:34.890 --> 17:35.330]  So, anyhow...
[17:35.330 --> 17:36.150]  Those are land-border countries.
[17:36.290 --> 17:41.430]  All the citizens from the following countries must now be...
[17:41.430 --> 17:42.430]  or as of...
[17:42.430 --> 17:42.990]  what is it?
[17:43.050 --> 17:49.550]  A couple days from now must be fingerprinted and have facial photographs taken of them.
[17:49.870 --> 18:08.050]  Andorra, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, and that's one of your favorites.
[18:08.190 --> 18:12.410]  Yeah, you know, I was hoping that would last for a while longer, but I guess that door has been closed.
[18:13.550 --> 18:25.430]  Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, otherwise known as Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, I was going to say San Marino, so I never escaped.
[18:26.650 --> 18:27.130]  Okay.
[18:27.830 --> 18:34.110]  Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.
[18:34.830 --> 18:36.250]  I thought they were our friends.
[18:37.430 --> 18:38.310]  Nobody's our friends.
[18:38.590 --> 18:39.150]  I guess not.
[18:39.350 --> 18:46.530]  Now, the rest of the world already had to get fingerprinted, so now these guys are included too, so now it's basically everyone has to get fingerprinted.
[18:46.530 --> 18:49.170]  And we'll probably have to get fingerprinted if we go over there in retaliation.
[18:49.870 --> 18:51.070]  That could be happening.
[18:51.190 --> 18:52.070]  That's what happened with Brazil.
[18:52.590 --> 18:55.810]  Well, actually, it started to happen with Brazil, and didn't we tell them to stop?
[18:56.110 --> 18:56.750]  And maybe they...
[18:56.750 --> 18:57.810]  And they finally stopped.
[18:57.890 --> 18:59.050]  Yeah, I mean, I don't know why...
[18:59.050 --> 19:01.450]  I admire them for standing up for a little while, at least.
[19:01.570 --> 19:04.850]  Why the rest of the world listens to what this country says?
[19:04.850 --> 19:06.050]  I don't get it, you know?
[19:08.210 --> 19:09.470]  Anyway, this is called the U.S.
[19:09.590 --> 19:10.370]  Visit Program.
[19:10.990 --> 19:11.870]  That's right, the U.S.
[19:11.990 --> 19:12.550]  Visit Program.
[19:12.770 --> 19:14.090]  It's meant to deter visiting.
[19:14.170 --> 19:14.810]  Yeah, if anything.
[19:15.910 --> 19:22.010]  It basically says that it will add an average of just 15 seconds to entry checks and will enhance security.
[19:22.150 --> 19:29.530]  I'd like to know, you know, I was fingerprinted recently through one of these inkless machines, and it took about a half hour to get it working right.
[19:29.530 --> 19:32.050]  So I really doubt this 15-second figure.
[19:32.150 --> 19:35.630]  Even if they have only one finger, it's still going to take a bit longer than that.
[19:35.970 --> 19:46.850]  Well, you know, I just had a test done recently at my doctor's at an annual physical, and they had to check my prostate with the digital exam, and that took less than 15 seconds, too, but it was still really unpleasant.
[19:46.850 --> 19:49.150]  Why don't they do that instead?
[19:49.470 --> 19:53.730]  Everybody that comes in gets a free prostate exam, which takes less than 15 seconds.
[19:53.730 --> 20:05.550]  I'm sure there's some identifier in there that's unique to every person, so you can file that away, you know, and I don't know, I just think it would be killing two birds with one stone instead of this.
[20:06.350 --> 20:06.770]  All right.
[20:06.950 --> 20:23.890]  Anyway, I'm looking at this now, and it says the biometric data will be stored in databases along with personal information such as full name, date of birth, citizenship, sex, and passport number, and can be accessed by border, consular, immigration, and law enforcement officials.
[20:23.890 --> 20:27.570]  It's that last group that really kind of worries me because it's so vague.
[20:27.910 --> 20:28.670]  It could be anybody.
[20:28.850 --> 20:30.570]  It could be campus security, law enforcement officials.
[20:30.610 --> 20:31.110]  What does that mean?
[20:31.170 --> 20:32.670]  How do they access it?
[20:32.730 --> 20:34.810]  What tells them they can't access certain things?
[20:35.390 --> 20:39.190]  and just where are these databases stored and what kind of encryption do they use?
[20:39.190 --> 20:40.270]  What is it going to do for them?
[20:40.370 --> 20:41.010]  I mean, great.
[20:41.150 --> 20:43.090]  Now you've got pictures of everyone that came in.
[20:43.230 --> 20:46.290]  So if they do something, you can, you know, identify them later.
[20:46.290 --> 20:49.590]  I don't understand what this is going to solve having their fingerprint.
[20:49.590 --> 20:59.450]  Well, it keeps people like Cat Stevens out, I guess, because if they see somebody that they really, you know, have suspicions about, maybe they can be quicker turning them away.
[20:59.550 --> 21:01.270]  They kept him out just fine without the fingerprinting.
[21:01.530 --> 21:02.410]  No, he got to Maine.
[21:02.410 --> 21:04.090]  He made it all the way to Maine.
[21:04.730 --> 21:04.850]  Yeah.
[21:05.170 --> 21:05.350]  Leo.
[21:05.830 --> 21:15.490]  Well, there's two things that I don't understand, which is, well, the first thing is that it's, I think it's meant to solve the problem of just checking the terror lists just by name.
[21:15.890 --> 21:19.710]  The terror lists are not, like, updated and stuff.
[21:19.930 --> 21:23.310]  But the second thing I don't understand reading the website of the U.S.
[21:23.310 --> 21:26.730]  visit program is it says entry ports and exit ports.
[21:27.010 --> 21:41.010]  And the program will be made, is going to be put into entry ports from people entering the country and also exit ports like LaGuardia, which is, it's a bloody place in Newark airport and a few other airports.
[21:41.310 --> 21:45.030]  But I don't understand why they'll be doing it to people who are exiting the country.
[21:45.170 --> 21:47.650]  Maybe I'm not understanding the explanation.
[21:48.010 --> 21:52.410]  The reason that they're doing the exit ports is to make sure you don't overstay your visa.
[21:53.310 --> 21:54.930]  That's, that's the thinking behind that.
[21:55.030 --> 21:59.530]  Well, they're going to, they're going to take your fingerprint when you leave as well is what you're saying.
[21:59.530 --> 22:01.910]  It gives you the day that you entered, the day that you left.
[22:01.910 --> 22:04.090]  You have a visa for 90 days, you leave at 91.
[22:04.310 --> 22:06.550]  Uh-oh, next time you try to come in, you're not going to be allowed.
[22:06.850 --> 22:10.310]  Or they can just arrest you and lock you up before you escape the country.
[22:10.850 --> 22:12.790]  For staying one day and now you're leaving.
[22:13.570 --> 22:17.470]  And then you can never come back again because you violated your, your, your stay.
[22:19.530 --> 22:34.550]  Well, if, um, if your telephone number, uh, is, eight, seven, eight, uh, four, seven, four, eight, your telephone number spells US visit.
[22:34.710 --> 22:36.470]  And that means you can have all kinds of fun.
[22:36.810 --> 22:39.530]  So, um, let us know if that's your phone number.
[22:39.890 --> 22:41.550]  And maybe they have that number somewhere.
[22:41.710 --> 22:43.930]  Maybe you can call them and find out all kinds of other information.
[22:43.930 --> 22:46.910]  We don't have any phone numbers for them, but, uh, do we have a website even?
[22:47.630 --> 22:48.410]  Leo, you have a website.
[22:48.470 --> 22:48.770]  What's the website?
[22:48.850 --> 22:50.750]  I can get to you in a better minute.
[22:50.890 --> 22:53.470]  When you say yes, I figure you mean now, not later.
[22:53.590 --> 22:53.710]  Okay.
[22:53.750 --> 22:55.550]  I have some, I have a URL here.
[22:55.690 --> 23:05.330]  If you go to, uh, dhs.gov, DHS as in Department of Homeland Security, dhs.gov, uh, you can, uh, you can stop looking.
[23:05.430 --> 23:06.130]  Bernie already has it.
[23:06.330 --> 23:06.750]  There you go.
[23:07.550 --> 23:08.890]  No, I'm saying go ahead, Bernie.
[23:13.950 --> 23:14.450]  U.S.
[23:14.470 --> 23:21.130]  visit and you will find several paragraphs of, including the list that I just read on the air of, uh, what's going on.
[23:21.230 --> 23:28.930]  It says also that there, uh, this is currently, uh, in place at 115 airports and 14 seaports.
[23:29.470 --> 23:30.690]  I guess that's where the boats come in.
[23:30.690 --> 23:31.490]  Yeah, boats come in too.
[23:31.710 --> 23:32.010]  Yeah.
[23:32.210 --> 23:32.590]  They still have it.
[23:32.750 --> 23:34.370]  Uh, and even a spaceport, I believe.
[23:34.890 --> 23:35.610]  That would be nice.
[23:35.750 --> 23:37.110]  Yeah, well, we're preparing for the future.
[23:38.010 --> 23:40.570]  Uh, last, uh, last week we were talking about the Netherlands a little bit
[23:43.930 --> 23:46.910]  of mail concerning some of the negative changes that are happening.
[23:47.070 --> 23:57.130]  After the September 11th attacks in the U.S., Dutch intelligence claimed to have uncovered a series of Islamic terrorist plots, prompting many people in, in Holland to wonder, are we next?
[23:57.410 --> 24:09.270]  The terror fears have spawned a raft of harsh security measures, from forcing citizens over 13 to carry identity cards, to authorizing police to stop and search people with no apparent cause.
[24:09.490 --> 24:14.490]  Uh, and these, uh, these things, of course, challenge the image of the Netherlands as one of the world's most progressive nations.
[24:14.830 --> 24:18.130]  Some people are already talking about a serious erosion of civil liberties.
[24:18.330 --> 24:24.770]  The government is playing a game of panic football, where they move from one expansion of the law to another in reaction to the latest development.
[24:25.010 --> 24:31.710]  That, according to Jessica Silversmith, a spokesman for the National Anti-Discrimination Bureau, which is a non-government organization.
[24:31.950 --> 24:33.510]  There's no equivalent to the U.S.
[24:33.650 --> 24:38.330]  Patriot Act in Europe, but most countries have taken anti-terrorism steps that curtail civil liberties.
[24:38.910 --> 24:45.670]  England, for instance, has held foreign suspects without charge, while Germany began religious profiling of suspects in the days after September 11th.
[24:45.770 --> 24:52.330]  And of course, we all know what's going on in France with the laws against wearing headdresses and things like that.
[24:53.010 --> 24:55.310]  They have a history of attacks from Algerian dissidents.
[24:55.630 --> 25:00.750]  Several judges have wiretapping powers similar to those granted to prosecutors under new Dutch laws.
[25:01.010 --> 25:12.590]  But the new power of the law enforcement agencies seems an odd fit in the Netherlands, a country with a let-live attitude that was the first to tolerate marijuana use and to legalize euthanasia and gay marriage.
[25:12.590 --> 25:20.910]  so something to keep an eye on as civil liberties slip further away from us all around the world.
[25:21.170 --> 25:36.390]  Do you think, Emmanuel, that I've read that the Dutch people, while they have a very much live-and-let-live attitude, they also seem to trust their government much more than say we do in this country.
[25:36.390 --> 25:38.610]  I think up until now they had reason to.
[25:38.910 --> 25:43.710]  Now I'm beginning to really be very suspicious as to what the motives might be here.
[25:44.110 --> 25:50.350]  And I think it's up to the people there to slap them across the face and bring them back to reality.
[25:50.490 --> 25:53.710]  Of course, it's up to us to do that here and we've been woefully negligent in that.
[25:54.390 --> 25:55.650]  Hopefully, it's not too late.
[25:55.830 --> 26:02.330]  But that's the only way really to change things is to let the fury of the masses be known.
[26:03.050 --> 26:07.730]  I don't mean to sound so strident there but it needs to be said.
[26:08.370 --> 26:18.190]  I have to say though, I'm really trying very hard as you've been talking to figure out the connection between gay marriage and wiretap powers and I'm just not seeing it at all.
[26:18.430 --> 26:19.170]  But that's okay.
[26:19.410 --> 26:22.710]  Well, I don't think anyone was saying there's a link between those two things.
[26:22.950 --> 26:27.310]  The article said that Netherlands has gay marriage and therefore it's anomalous that they have wiretap laws.
[26:27.450 --> 26:28.830]  I just don't see the analogy at all.
[26:28.910 --> 26:32.190]  Well, one implies tolerance one implies control.
[26:32.410 --> 26:34.390]  Usually the things don't go hand in hand.
[26:34.570 --> 26:34.950]  Usually.
[26:35.210 --> 26:39.630]  Countries that tend to be more tolerant tend to be less totalitarian.
[26:40.410 --> 26:41.010]  Right?
[26:41.350 --> 26:47.030]  And countries that allow certain things tend to frown on other things.
[26:47.490 --> 26:48.750]  Just seems to work that way.
[26:49.470 --> 27:01.690]  Speaking of fingerprints, identity thieves and other criminals may be easier to track with a new fingerprinting system that police in Lafayette, I believe this is in Kentucky, that's a problem in these local papers.
[27:01.850 --> 27:04.150]  They don't feel the need to tell you where they are.
[27:04.370 --> 27:07.190]  It's from the Lafayette Daily Advertiser, wherever that's published.
[27:08.310 --> 27:10.290]  And of course, the dateline just says Lafayette.
[27:10.930 --> 27:20.050]  They're going to have small fingerprint pads that police officers will use at the scene of a traffic stop where there is doubt about the person's identity.
[27:20.550 --> 27:26.430]  Yeah, they say identity theft and people giving false names to law enforcement is common in Lafayette.
[27:26.990 --> 27:34.870]  sometimes that can mean an innocent person's name is used by someone who gets arrested and when they don't show up for court, officers arrest a person who didn't do anything wrong.
[27:35.590 --> 27:48.390]  So, the solution is to fingerprint everybody on the scene of anything that they feel they need to fingerprint them that and you know, there's really the fact that people are tolerating this is very problematic here.
[27:48.490 --> 27:54.310]  You used to only be fingerprinted when you were in jail, when you allegedly had committed a crime of some sort.
[27:54.990 --> 27:57.990]  Now, everybody's getting fingerprinted for the most trivial of things.
[27:58.170 --> 27:59.570]  These were donated by banks.
[27:59.770 --> 28:00.590]  Banks had these.
[28:00.830 --> 28:05.810]  You know, banks used them lots of times to prove that you're the person you say you are when you want to cash a check.
[28:05.990 --> 28:10.810]  Well, now the banks are donating to the cops and the cops are using them in the streets.
[28:10.810 --> 28:17.030]  I have a related story, but first on that, the banks actually would associate your fingerprint with the check.
[28:17.190 --> 28:21.950]  So then if there was a problem, they'd go back and they'd have a print to start searching for.
[28:22.070 --> 28:23.810]  Not for you to prove who you were.
[28:23.910 --> 28:26.390]  They didn't actually check it until after something happened.
[28:27.110 --> 28:28.150]  Related story.
[28:28.670 --> 28:31.970]  Apparently in New York State, there's a loophole in the DMV.
[28:32.270 --> 28:38.910]  If you have a driver's license, let's say the example they give is James Smith date of birth 8276.
[28:39.330 --> 28:43.050]  If you present your ID as James A.
[28:43.290 --> 28:52.610]  Smith, born August the 2nd, 1976, with an out-of-state license, the system will consider you two different people.
[28:52.790 --> 28:54.750]  This has been known by truckers for years.
[28:54.750 --> 28:56.390]  They have multiple state licenses.
[28:56.390 --> 29:00.890]  They present one until they get a certain number of tickets, and then they present another one.
[29:01.930 --> 29:05.510]  So now they're telling the cops to look for this.
[29:06.190 --> 29:23.630]  And among other things that they're telling the cops in New York to do is examine the vehicle operator's documents to determine if the person stopped has multiple IDs showing other names, addresses, or dates of birth, and to invoice any documents suggesting a person may be using two or more identities.
[29:25.090 --> 29:28.130]  So that may be of interest to somebody or other in here.
[29:28.730 --> 29:29.430]  In where?
[29:29.530 --> 29:29.730]  Here?
[29:29.910 --> 29:30.350]  In this room?
[29:30.770 --> 29:31.410]  I don't know.
[29:32.530 --> 29:32.970]  Interesting.
[29:33.190 --> 29:33.630]  Very interesting.
[29:34.210 --> 29:35.750]  Seems like they're cracking down on everything.
[29:36.150 --> 29:36.430]  Yes, Bernie.
[29:36.530 --> 29:47.990]  One news item, Emanuel, and that is the FCC, which is one of those interesting regulatory bodies of our government who actually does listen to the public in some cases.
[29:47.990 --> 30:10.110]  is they have just launched a notice of proposed rulemaking, which means they're going to take public comments on a new move to, by Congress, to require this CALEA, you know, Communications Act for Law Enforcement Assistance, to cover voice-over IP services.
[30:10.230 --> 30:18.510]  And for people not familiar with CALEA, that was the 1994 law that mandated surveillance back doors in U.S.
[30:18.610 --> 30:37.730]  telephone networks so that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies could ostensibly start listening right away to phone calls as soon as they got a court order, although there was no real oversight to, like, you know, before they had to go to the central office of the phone company with a warrant and then the phone company would hook them up.
[30:38.070 --> 30:45.550]  Now, you know, it's like nobody looking over the shoulder of the FBI saying, you know, don't type in that phone number on the keyboard before you get the warrant.
[30:45.730 --> 30:52.030]  But in any case, this is going to be expanded to include voice-over IP services or the government would like.
[30:52.330 --> 30:55.950]  And the FCC is requesting public comments on this.
[30:56.030 --> 31:07.610]  So if you don't want your Internet phone calls to be more easily tapped as your wirelines are currently, you can fill out a form on the FCC's website and express your opinion.
[31:07.730 --> 31:15.770]  There's a very long URL for that on the FCC's website, but if you write to oth.2600.com, we will send it to you.
[31:15.970 --> 31:18.010]  Is it really too long to read over the air?
[31:18.350 --> 31:19.310]  It's really long.
[31:19.490 --> 31:22.950]  It's like over 150 characters.
[31:24.830 --> 31:28.730]  Why don't you feed it into tinyurl.com and come up with a tinyurl?
[31:28.910 --> 31:31.010]  That would be a good thing to do, but I didn't have time.
[31:31.170 --> 31:31.490]  Oh, okay.
[31:31.770 --> 31:31.970]  All right.
[31:32.010 --> 31:37.270]  Well, maybe one of our listeners will contact you, get the URL, and then next week we'll have a tiny URL to read.
[31:37.530 --> 31:37.850]  Okay.
[31:38.690 --> 31:40.130]  Bernie, you know my email address.
[31:40.150 --> 31:41.990]  Mail me the URL and I'll convert it.
[31:42.370 --> 31:42.690]  Okay.
[31:43.850 --> 31:47.790]  You can do it right now and you could run out into the hallway and come back and turn it up at the end of the show.
[31:48.870 --> 31:50.610]  It could mean a difference between...
[31:50.610 --> 31:50.910]  Oh, never mind.
[31:52.650 --> 31:56.070]  Anyway, yes, you can send us an email, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[31:56.290 --> 31:58.310]  Many people do and they don't regret it.
[31:58.770 --> 32:06.610]  They're happy to have expressed themselves and to have said what's on their mind and we're going to read some of what you've said to us.
[32:06.690 --> 32:09.230]  In fact, that's the risk that you take when you send us mail.
[32:09.490 --> 32:10.530]  We might read it over the air.
[32:10.870 --> 32:13.110]  We won't read your real name or anything like that unless you tell us to.
[32:13.270 --> 32:13.410]  Jim.
[32:13.710 --> 32:18.810]  Before you do that, I just want to mention a website I've come across which this show really...
[32:19.790 --> 32:23.210]  Everything we've talked about at security, this is the website to amuse us.
[32:23.210 --> 32:25.890]  It's called stupidsecurity.com.
[32:26.030 --> 32:26.910]  I've just come across it.
[32:27.030 --> 32:34.230]  It discusses airlines, TSA, computers, anything that is extremely stupid and hilarious is on this site.
[32:34.830 --> 32:37.170]  I just want to recommend it to our listenership.
[32:37.510 --> 32:38.550]  Stupidsecurity.com.
[32:38.930 --> 32:39.630]  Very funny.
[32:39.810 --> 32:41.390]  Stuff we've mentioned in the past.
[32:41.770 --> 32:43.250]  Stuff we should mention in the future.
[32:43.470 --> 32:46.030]  You know, you lean to the right a bit, I believe.
[32:46.310 --> 32:48.310]  Well, not the right I'll lean to the left.
[32:48.410 --> 32:49.030]  Okay, whatever.
[32:49.530 --> 32:52.870]  Do you know what's going on with these yellow ribbons on all the vehicles all over the place?
[32:52.870 --> 32:54.350]  I'm seeing them everywhere I go.
[32:54.470 --> 32:55.490]  You mean painted on cars?
[32:55.650 --> 32:56.210]  They're not painted.
[32:56.310 --> 32:57.470]  They're stuck on cars, I think.
[32:57.890 --> 32:59.410]  They're on the side.
[32:59.530 --> 33:00.070]  They're on doors.
[33:00.070 --> 33:01.050]  They're on bumpers.
[33:01.150 --> 33:02.290]  They're everywhere on cars.
[33:02.290 --> 33:02.830]  I'm seeing...
[33:02.830 --> 33:04.150]  And they all say support our troops.
[33:04.270 --> 33:05.690]  But who's putting these on cars?
[33:05.850 --> 33:06.450]  They're everywhere.
[33:06.690 --> 33:07.450]  I've seen them.
[33:07.830 --> 33:09.910]  They're painted on the cars that I've seen.
[33:10.110 --> 33:12.610]  They look like roughly half of an infinity sign, correct?
[33:12.770 --> 33:15.330]  They look like one of those Jesus fishes except they're yellow ribbons.
[33:15.330 --> 33:16.290]  Yeah, or like that, yes.
[33:16.910 --> 33:17.990]  And yes, they...
[33:17.990 --> 33:18.410]  There's a lot more of them lately.
[33:18.590 --> 33:19.550]  They don't all say...
[33:19.550 --> 33:22.170]  In the last two weeks, I've seen millions of them.
[33:22.230 --> 33:22.790]  What's going on?
[33:22.790 --> 33:24.030]  Who is organizing this?
[33:24.110 --> 33:24.810]  That's what I want to know.
[33:24.950 --> 33:25.450]  I don't know.
[33:25.770 --> 33:33.670]  I was driving around the Poconos this past weekend, hiking, and I saw these on a lot of cars in a small town called Jim Thorpe.
[33:33.730 --> 33:36.190]  It was just an amazing number of cars that had these yellow ribbons.
[33:36.250 --> 33:39.570]  Well, they're all over Long Island, too, and I saw a couple in the city, so...
[33:39.570 --> 33:41.170]  They don't all say support our troops.
[33:41.390 --> 33:44.970]  Some say remember the Twin Towers, remember the World Trade Center.
[33:45.330 --> 33:56.310]  Which leads me, since not only are they different, troops versus World Trade Center, but since some say World Trade Center and Twin Towers, that suggests that's not a monolithic organization.
[33:56.590 --> 33:59.690]  But yeah, most of them, they would pick one or the other.
[33:59.690 --> 34:01.550]  Well, some of them are red, white, and blue, and some of them are yellow.
[34:01.770 --> 34:06.870]  Right, which leads me to think that it's like the car dealership offering this is an extra thing.
[34:06.930 --> 34:09.510]  No, because these are on old cars and pickup trucks and all kinds of...
[34:09.510 --> 34:09.550]  Really?
[34:09.570 --> 34:10.190]  It's got to be decals.
[34:10.190 --> 34:13.450]  What I'm wondering, though, is just the organization behind this is phenomenal.
[34:13.650 --> 34:14.670]  I mean, my hat's off to them.
[34:14.670 --> 34:22.390]  I just would like to know who's doing it and how they're getting out there so quickly and why nobody else seems to be having this kind of an effect.
[34:22.630 --> 34:27.010]  I'd like to see one of the stickers of, you know, I have a few ideas for some.
[34:27.070 --> 34:30.850]  If you have this on your car, call us up and let us know where you got it.
[34:30.910 --> 34:34.470]  My idea is to have a red ribbon that says, bring them home.
[34:34.890 --> 34:35.850]  You know, that would be nice.
[34:36.030 --> 34:37.090]  It doesn't have to be red.
[34:37.210 --> 34:37.750]  It could be green.
[34:37.890 --> 34:41.230]  But, you know, just something like that to express a different sentiment.
[34:41.230 --> 34:45.150]  Because I'm sick of this whole gung-ho attitude that never seems to accomplish anything.
[34:45.470 --> 34:46.150]  Anyway, that's my...
[34:46.150 --> 34:47.290]  Red ribbons are already taken.
[34:47.450 --> 34:47.890]  They're for AIDS.
[34:49.430 --> 34:49.790]  Damn.
[34:50.110 --> 34:50.310]  All right.
[34:50.410 --> 34:52.310]  Well, we'll have to come up with a new color.
[34:52.730 --> 34:58.490]  What would a sticker look like that would just say, support our constitution or what's left of it?
[34:58.790 --> 35:00.590]  It would have to be pretty big for you to be able to read it.
[35:00.630 --> 35:00.670]  It would look like a scroll.
[35:01.510 --> 35:01.670]  Yeah.
[35:01.870 --> 35:02.770]  Like a picture of a scroll?
[35:02.950 --> 35:03.310]  Portsmouth.
[35:03.490 --> 35:04.250]  See, that's our problem.
[35:12.470 --> 35:18.590]  There's a piece of legislation coming up for a vote tomorrow in the Senate called the Induce Act.
[35:18.830 --> 35:28.670]  The Induce Act would criminalize file sharing and actually allow people who are on Kazar or whatever to be thrown in jail.
[35:29.330 --> 35:34.830]  So if you oppose this act, call your senators tomorrow morning because they're voting on it tomorrow.
[35:35.090 --> 35:36.970]  Why do we always find out about these things at the last minute?
[35:36.970 --> 35:37.890]  Well, actually, this was...
[35:37.890 --> 35:53.610]  I called them today and both said they had, as of this moment, both New York state senators said they had, as of this moment, no position on the issue, which is a bit odd because Senator Clinton is listed as one of the co-sponsors of the act.
[35:53.690 --> 35:54.790]  And she's probably listening right now.
[35:54.790 --> 35:56.110]  She's in our listening range.
[35:56.210 --> 35:58.450]  So Senator Clinton, vote no.
[35:58.870 --> 35:59.210]  All right.
[36:00.310 --> 36:03.230]  Let's read some of this mail and our phone number, 212-209-2900.
[36:03.330 --> 36:04.410]  Let's take some phone calls as well.
[36:04.410 --> 36:21.910]  So I thought you might like to hear that Takedown, remember that movie that we were protesting years ago, has been categorized in the comedy section of my local DVD place and almost every other store I've been to with a nice large sticker of printed comedy stuck to the front of the cover.
[36:23.230 --> 36:24.730]  Might make for a good photo.
[36:24.910 --> 36:25.350]  Definitely would.
[36:25.470 --> 36:31.190]  And that comes from someone whose name I can't really pronounce, Legoy Man, I believe, from Perth, Western Australia.
[36:31.370 --> 36:32.810]  Thanks very much for that letter.
[36:32.810 --> 36:39.150]  And of course, Takedown has finally been released in this country, and the name of it is Trackdown now.
[36:39.270 --> 36:39.770]  Two words.
[36:40.050 --> 36:41.530]  Just renamed it Trackdown.
[36:41.650 --> 36:43.770]  I guess they don't want people to realize it's the same film.
[36:43.910 --> 36:44.370]  But beware.
[36:44.510 --> 36:48.110]  You know, if you're in the video store and you see this film about Kevin Mitnick, they call it Trackdown.
[36:48.290 --> 36:49.570]  It really is Takedown.
[36:49.650 --> 36:50.170]  No difference.
[36:50.750 --> 36:53.490]  Are there any special features on the DVD manual?
[36:53.730 --> 36:55.010]  I mean, I don't know if you have a copy.
[36:55.010 --> 37:00.990]  Well, I don't have a copy, but the one I did have from the past was actually an Australian DVD, and it didn't have anything.
[37:01.190 --> 37:03.590]  It didn't have any behind-the-scenes features or anything like that.
[37:03.690 --> 37:05.410]  But, you know, they're different from country to country.
[37:05.650 --> 37:12.250]  I really want to see that scene where Kevin Mitnick hit Shimomura over the head with a garbage can.
[37:12.250 --> 37:14.030]  Well, you won't see that because that was taken out of the script.
[37:14.110 --> 37:15.850]  That's one of the few things we were able to get taken out.
[37:15.850 --> 37:17.310]  They revised it.
[37:17.310 --> 37:23.910]  They revised it so that Kevin got somebody else to hit him, used his social engineering skills.
[37:23.910 --> 37:27.450]  But, you know, it never happened because he never even met Shimomura until he was already arrested.
[37:28.030 --> 37:29.190]  Okay, continuing with Mail.
[37:29.310 --> 37:37.790]  I believe in our right to the freedom of speech and have come to accept that your radio program will continue to insult and belittle me and my beliefs for no apparent reason from time to time.
[37:38.010 --> 37:40.890]  Would you consider airing an Islam is stupid song?
[37:40.890 --> 37:48.350]  I guess this is a reference to our playing Christianity is stupid last week when we had Mark Hussler from Negative Land in.
[37:48.750 --> 38:01.570]  You know, if there's a song called Islam is Stupid, then yes, we'll play it if it's a decent song and funny and, you know, non-offensive as I consider Christianity is stupid to be and not because I think Christianity is stupid because the song, if you listen to it,
[38:01.890 --> 38:03.570]  is an interesting piece.
[38:10.890 --> 38:11.910]  It's taken out of context.
[38:12.110 --> 38:16.730]  Yeah, it's only taken out of context, but, you know, it's an interesting art piece, I think.
[38:16.950 --> 38:21.310]  Anyway, this person wants to know, would you expect or be afraid of retaliation from followers of such a peaceful religion?
[38:21.470 --> 38:22.270]  I'll say it right now.
[38:22.330 --> 38:22.990]  Islam is stupid.
[38:23.130 --> 38:23.290]  There.
[38:23.630 --> 38:27.330]  And so is Buddhism, Judaism, Atheism, Catholicism.
[38:27.490 --> 38:28.290]  They're all stupid.
[38:28.290 --> 38:29.370]  All these organized religions.
[38:30.450 --> 38:33.550]  Atheism is an organized religion because it relies on faith.
[38:33.850 --> 38:34.870]  Faith that there's no God.
[38:34.970 --> 38:35.330]  Same thing.
[38:36.430 --> 38:36.770]  Anyway.
[38:37.570 --> 38:38.070]  That's why we like you.
[38:38.070 --> 38:39.510]  Have I gotten everybody upset yet?
[38:39.510 --> 38:40.410]  Because I'm really trying.
[38:40.410 --> 38:41.510]  Did you get jews?
[38:42.410 --> 38:44.330]  Judaism, I think, would cover that, yeah.
[38:45.330 --> 38:45.890]  Animism?
[38:46.150 --> 38:46.470]  Anyway.
[38:47.230 --> 38:47.790]  Shamanism?
[38:47.870 --> 38:53.230]  I hope that covers everything and dispels any doubt that we're picking.
[38:53.430 --> 39:05.330]  The reason why you may see us criticizing the dominant religion more and America more is because we're here, you know, and it's always easier to criticize that which you're familiar with.
[39:05.430 --> 39:09.870]  So I would expect people in other places where other customs are more prevalent.
[39:10.410 --> 39:13.950]  That they would, you know, take a critical eye towards those.
[39:14.230 --> 39:15.290]  It's only fair, right?
[39:15.890 --> 39:16.890]  Unless they don't care.
[39:17.870 --> 39:24.590]  Since you were talking about airport security briefly on the last show, on my recent flight via Philadelphia, I was asked, what is your occupation?
[39:25.090 --> 39:29.950]  But the second question was, are you or have you ever been a member of any terrorist organization?
[39:31.450 --> 39:32.270]  That's amazing.
[39:32.590 --> 39:34.410]  How do you answer a question like that?
[39:35.130 --> 39:35.670]  You know?
[39:35.850 --> 39:36.090]  No.
[39:36.330 --> 39:38.330]  Well, I guess no is the right answer, but thank you.
[39:38.330 --> 39:45.210]  I bet all the Al-Qaeda members would have said yes if only someone had thought to ask them.
[39:46.150 --> 39:46.550]  Yeah.
[39:46.870 --> 39:48.850]  Because, you know, lying is wrong.
[39:49.650 --> 39:51.330]  I was once asked by...
[39:51.330 --> 39:52.350]  This is not a joke.
[39:52.530 --> 39:59.610]  I was once asked by a law enforcement officer, by a police officer, if I was asked, are you a pathological liar?
[40:01.570 --> 40:02.530]  This is a true story.
[40:02.670 --> 40:03.070]  I was asked that question by a police officer.
[40:03.070 --> 40:03.930]  What a great question.
[40:04.190 --> 40:05.210]  How are you supposed to answer that?
[40:05.690 --> 40:07.410]  I just said, uh...
[40:09.470 --> 40:13.610]  If you had said yes, he probably would have exploded, because, you know...
[40:15.690 --> 40:16.310]  That's amazing.
[40:16.530 --> 40:17.830]  That guy was really messing with you.
[40:18.870 --> 40:19.970]  I don't think he...
[40:19.970 --> 40:23.270]  I know, but he didn't realize that it was a really stupid question.
[40:24.150 --> 40:25.910]  Or he didn't understand the conflict there.
[40:26.010 --> 40:26.990]  He didn't understand his own question.
[40:27.010 --> 40:27.670]  I can believe that.
[40:28.130 --> 40:34.510]  Having been a guest of the NYPD, I can believe anything with regards to the way they operate or any department like that.
[40:34.690 --> 40:40.710]  Oh, by the way, this Friday, it's quite possible that people in New York City are going to hear a very loud noise.
[40:42.210 --> 40:43.830]  I just would like to explain that now.
[40:43.950 --> 40:49.890]  That noise will probably be me saying something like, hell no, or no way, or something like that when I'm offered an ACD in court.
[40:50.250 --> 40:57.650]  I am pleading not guilty this Friday for the charges or the charge of disorderly conduct.
[40:57.650 --> 41:03.090]  For standing on a sidewalk that I was charged with and put in jail for 34 hours or so.
[41:03.430 --> 41:04.310]  What's an ACD?
[41:04.450 --> 41:06.790]  It's adjournment and contemplation of dismissal.
[41:07.150 --> 41:20.790]  And if you really can't make it to court, if you live in Bombay or something, and it's really hard to, oh, if you're going to lose your job or something, you know, it's the right thing to do for you.
[41:20.870 --> 41:27.010]  And you shouldn't feel guilty about it because, you know, you have to think of yourself and the people around you primarily.
[41:27.630 --> 41:35.210]  But for somebody like me who is in New York and is willing to spend the time to make a case, that is completely unacceptable.
[41:35.710 --> 41:38.650]  And I'll be fighting this thing to the bitter end, whenever that may be.
[41:38.810 --> 41:42.730]  So the first date is this Friday, 9.30 in the morning, I'm expected to be there.
[41:42.810 --> 41:46.830]  In fact, I'm all jet lagged because I've been training to wake up in the morning over the last week.
[41:46.930 --> 41:48.810]  And I, you know, I just don't know how people do this.
[41:49.930 --> 41:53.930]  So Friday, I'm probably just going to show up in court and say those words.
[41:54.170 --> 41:55.430]  I'll try to keep my voice down.
[41:55.970 --> 41:57.870]  But I'm going to be given another date then.
[41:57.870 --> 41:59.190]  And I'm not sure what happens on that date.
[41:59.190 --> 42:01.190]  But it progresses really, really slowly.
[42:02.190 --> 42:05.610]  Worst case scenario, they drop the charges and I don't get to present my case.
[42:05.610 --> 42:06.710]  That would really suck.
[42:06.870 --> 42:10.210]  But hopefully, hopefully we'll get to have our day in court.
[42:11.770 --> 42:14.410]  Okay, let's go to some more letters and we'll take some phone calls in a moment.
[42:14.650 --> 42:15.510]  Here's an interesting one.
[42:15.930 --> 42:25.350]  Listening to the archived off the hook of July 23rd, 2003, I wondered if your view of John Gilmore's suspected terrorist button incident has changed in light of...
[42:25.350 --> 42:25.890]  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[42:25.970 --> 42:30.090]  I thought we had a promise not to talk about John Gilmore anymore on this show.
[42:30.090 --> 42:30.770]  I'm reading the letter.
[42:31.030 --> 42:31.890]  It's an interesting point.
[42:32.030 --> 42:33.110]  I'd like to address it.
[42:34.150 --> 42:35.250]  I wonder if you're...
[42:35.250 --> 42:37.050]  Since when don't we address controversial things?
[42:37.190 --> 42:38.450]  Since when do we shy away from that?
[42:38.830 --> 42:39.430]  I'm surprised at you.
[42:39.490 --> 42:41.150]  When we discuss a button for 20 minutes.
[42:41.190 --> 42:42.550]  Well, we're not going to discuss a button.
[42:42.690 --> 42:44.330]  Instead, we're going to discuss discussing the button.
[42:45.050 --> 42:45.850]  Good God.
[42:46.610 --> 42:53.450]  Anyway, I wonder if your view of John Gilmore's suspected terrorist button incident has changed in light of your recent experiences at the GOP convention.
[42:53.450 --> 42:58.290]  Your argument that, yes, he has the right to wear the button, but if it makes others uncomfortable, dot, dot, dot.
[42:58.390 --> 43:03.390]  One could say that, yes, you have the right to protest at the GOP convention, but doing so will make some uncomfortable.
[43:03.390 --> 43:04.730]  It's best that you just don't do it.
[43:04.770 --> 43:05.910]  In other words, take off the button.
[43:06.310 --> 43:11.550]  Let me, first of all, clear up something which I really shouldn't have to clear up because I've said it so many times.
[43:11.550 --> 43:12.970]  I wasn't protesting, damn it.
[43:13.010 --> 43:14.050]  I was standing on the sidewalk.
[43:14.210 --> 43:18.730]  I was holding a microphone and a camera, and that's what I was arrested for, not for protesting.
[43:18.730 --> 43:26.450]  Now, it doesn't really make a difference as far as the point that's being made here, but I think it's important as far as my particular case.
[43:26.630 --> 43:29.370]  Let me continue with the letter before I address the points here.
[43:30.250 --> 43:32.210]  One could say, okay, I read that part.
[43:32.290 --> 43:39.630]  Your comment that while a button might stimulate conversation and thought in some that might not otherwise think of such issues, it wouldn't work with an airplane full of people.
[43:39.630 --> 43:45.850]  Makes me wonder if you think that a group of marchers carrying signs might stimulate talk and reflection, but not with a nation full of people.
[43:46.670 --> 43:49.630]  Well, you know, I have to say it's a completely different scenario.
[43:49.630 --> 43:56.250]  When you're on board an airplane, which is flying 45,000 feet above the ocean, you know, it's a controlled environment.
[43:56.510 --> 44:03.770]  It's part of an organization that basically can decide when to kick people out.
[44:03.870 --> 44:06.550]  Like, you know, I'd like to wear a paper bag over my head.
[44:06.550 --> 44:08.930]  I feel that's, you know, an appropriate fashion statement.
[44:09.070 --> 44:18.890]  But I understand if I go even to McDonald's, they might decide that that's not an appropriate look for one of their customers and, you know, say, please either take the bag off or leave this, leave our store.
[44:19.270 --> 44:26.410]  You know, it's, it's a completely different thing than exercising your, your, your freedom of speech in a street, in a public street, in a city.
[44:26.690 --> 44:31.390]  That's, if somebody had said, take off the button in a street, it'd be completely different.
[44:31.610 --> 44:35.050]  Obviously, that's the kind of thing that, uh, you know, you have to object to.
[44:35.790 --> 44:43.050]  And, you know, you wouldn't stage a demonstration on a 747 either because it would probably upset people and cause all kinds of mayhem.
[44:43.290 --> 44:44.410]  Yes, you have the right to do it.
[44:44.470 --> 44:45.350]  You have the right to speak.
[44:45.550 --> 44:47.030]  You have the right to do all kinds of things.
[44:47.130 --> 44:56.030]  But in certain situations, you have to, uh, realize that somebody's in charge of a controlled environment and either listen to them or go somewhere else.
[44:56.150 --> 44:56.290]  Jim?
[44:56.470 --> 45:00.590]  I just want to point, uh, bring something up as a thought experiment for everyone.
[45:00.870 --> 45:02.990]  Uh, no discussion expected on this show.
[45:03.550 --> 45:07.230]  Uh, suppose you're on an airplane and you see somebody with a t-shirt.
[45:07.370 --> 45:08.690]  Suppose you, Emmanuel, are on an airplane.
[45:08.690 --> 45:14.730]  And you see somebody with a t-shirt that says Emmanuel Goldstein and there's a big red circle around it, a big red slash through it.
[45:14.870 --> 45:16.270]  Would that make you feel uncomfortable?
[45:16.270 --> 45:17.470]  Should they take that shirt off?
[45:17.770 --> 45:19.530]  Suppose you're out in the middle of the street.
[45:19.630 --> 45:20.550]  You see the same shirt.
[45:21.830 --> 45:24.410]  What if you're running for president and you see the same shirt?
[45:24.510 --> 45:25.910]  Does that make you feel uncomfortable?
[45:26.390 --> 45:27.470]  That's a weak analogy.
[45:27.790 --> 45:28.070]  I mean...
[45:28.070 --> 45:28.870]  It's not an analogy.
[45:28.870 --> 45:30.010]  This is a thought experiment.
[45:30.150 --> 45:30.430]  Okay.
[45:30.570 --> 45:31.950]  Well, you know, it's...
[45:31.950 --> 45:33.670]  I don't know what you expect me to say.
[45:33.690 --> 45:37.710]  Of course, a shirt is expressing an opinion about a particular person, you know.
[45:37.710 --> 45:38.350]  Exactly.
[45:38.650 --> 45:38.790]  Right.
[45:38.950 --> 45:42.770]  But if the shirt's saying, I might blow up the airplane and you're on an airplane, that, you know, that's a little different.
[45:42.870 --> 45:43.330]  That's different.
[45:43.470 --> 45:45.750]  We don't have that shirt in either case.
[45:45.870 --> 45:47.350]  We don't have that shirt as a shirt.
[45:47.450 --> 45:48.710]  We don't have that shirt as a button.
[45:50.150 --> 45:50.490]  Okay.
[45:51.010 --> 45:52.430]  I see Mike's point now.
[45:52.710 --> 45:53.890]  We're just going to get onto this.
[45:53.890 --> 45:54.650]  Yeah, let's skip the button.
[45:54.710 --> 45:55.570]  Crazy scenarios here.
[45:55.570 --> 46:00.050]  I just wanted to address that letter because, you know, I thought some things needed to be cleared up.
[46:08.550 --> 46:13.390]  And find it hard to believe you were so traumatized by the event you voluntarily attended in New York City recently.
[46:13.730 --> 46:14.130]  Again.
[46:15.010 --> 46:15.410]  Again.
[46:15.410 --> 46:19.610]  You know, why do people insist on thinking that I was part of a protest when I wasn't?
[46:19.650 --> 46:21.750]  It's amazing how people just believe this.
[46:22.170 --> 46:32.670]  What would have happened to your civil liberties if even one relatively minor terrorist attack had occurred in or around New York City, or any other major city for that matter, at any time during, before, or after the RNC convention?
[46:32.670 --> 46:39.350]  What would have happened to the half million protesters if there had been a poison gas attack on the subway system that goes near the convention center?
[46:39.570 --> 46:47.330]  A protester with a backpack filled with gas canisters could have made their way onto the subway, except for the fact that there were so many police looking to abridge your civil rights.
[46:47.510 --> 46:48.110]  Get real.
[46:48.590 --> 46:49.930]  Did anybody see a point flyby?
[46:50.130 --> 46:52.230]  Because I'm looking for one in there somewhere.
[46:52.770 --> 46:59.570]  You make it sound like 33 hours on the pier was equivalent to 10 years in the Gulag, or six years in the POW camp in Hanover, or even three years at Gitmo.
[47:00.690 --> 47:02.870]  Yeah, I really tried to make that point.
[47:03.450 --> 47:06.030]  Give me a break, but the threat of Rikers cooled your jets, huh?
[47:06.190 --> 47:07.550]  How committed are you to protesting?
[47:08.290 --> 47:10.510]  Where were you in the week following 9-11?
[47:10.850 --> 47:13.490]  In New York City or your cozy little apartment drinking your latte?
[47:13.730 --> 47:15.250]  I don't drink latte, damn it.
[47:16.170 --> 47:17.010]  What's wrong with latte?
[47:17.050 --> 47:18.830]  I mean, what's wrong with people who drink and drink latte?
[47:18.830 --> 47:20.330]  Well, I'm just saying all these things.
[47:20.490 --> 47:23.210]  I mean, he's going for the grand slam of getting things wrong here.
[47:23.610 --> 47:34.130]  I feel sorry for you and your crowd, all 1,800 plus of you who were inconvenienced for a few hours, but fed and housed with adequate sanitary facilities provided, and no threat of physical harm or torture in the offing.
[47:34.470 --> 47:39.650]  And by the way, was there likely to have been more freedom of movement if the DNC would have had their convention in NYC?
[47:39.690 --> 47:40.130]  I doubt it.
[47:40.170 --> 47:42.750]  This is a whole Republican-Democrat thing.
[47:42.910 --> 47:44.230]  No, they're both equally bad.
[47:44.230 --> 47:45.330]  I'll answer that question.
[47:45.970 --> 47:52.050]  Thank God, whoever you see him to be, that you live in a country where there are enough police to make a statement to the nuts of the world to stay away from us.
[47:54.830 --> 47:56.530]  I don't know if there's anything I can say to that.
[47:56.770 --> 47:56.950]  No.
[47:57.070 --> 47:57.790]  I really don't.
[47:57.850 --> 47:59.770]  But it just shows you we get mail from all over.
[48:00.310 --> 48:03.270]  And you can send us mail to OTH at 2600.com.
[48:03.870 --> 48:04.970]  We'd like to hear from you.
[48:05.650 --> 48:06.390]  We always do.
[48:07.050 --> 48:08.070]  All right, let's see who's out there.
[48:08.890 --> 48:09.470]  Good evening.
[48:09.490 --> 48:10.010]  You're on the air.
[48:10.730 --> 48:11.110]  Yeah, hi.
[48:11.310 --> 48:11.670]  How you doing?
[48:12.350 --> 48:17.730]  I did not get the complete URL for that audio tape you played at the beginning.
[48:19.310 --> 48:19.870]  I see.
[48:20.350 --> 48:21.650]  And you'd like me to read it again.
[48:22.650 --> 48:27.350]  Well, you can do another 30 hours in the prison if you don't, but...
[48:28.330 --> 48:29.710]  Okay, all right, all right.
[48:29.730 --> 48:31.830]  Read a lot of other nasty letters about that.
[48:31.930 --> 48:33.850]  It's just that now it's under a pile of paper.
[48:34.010 --> 48:34.470]  I have it here.
[48:34.590 --> 48:34.890]  I have it here.
[48:35.010 --> 48:35.310]  I'm going to read it.
[48:35.310 --> 48:41.150]  If you go there, you'll not only hear what you heard, but you'll also see things, which is interesting in and of itself.
[48:41.690 --> 48:53.790]  The URL is www.prisonplanet.com slash articles slash August 2004 slash 260804perspective.htm.
[48:54.070 --> 48:56.030]  This is the problem the first time you gave it.
[48:56.110 --> 48:57.370]  You give it too fast.
[48:57.370 --> 48:58.890]  You need to slow down.
[49:00.230 --> 49:01.450]  This is the last time.
[49:01.610 --> 49:02.430]  I'm going to do it slow.
[49:02.670 --> 49:05.550]  You have to understand, this is FM radio time in New York City.
[49:05.650 --> 49:06.310]  It's very valuable.
[49:06.890 --> 49:19.230]  All right, www.prisonplanet.com slash articles slash, and you thought I was wasting time and a button, August 2004.
[49:21.310 --> 49:22.230]  He's writing it down.
[49:22.470 --> 49:33.290]  Okay, and now the last part, slash 260804perspective, no space or dash or anything like that, .htm.
[49:34.070 --> 49:35.190]  And I hope you got it.
[49:35.190 --> 49:36.690]  I don't care if you didn't anymore.
[49:36.870 --> 49:37.410]  Good evening.
[49:37.530 --> 49:37.970]  You're on the air.
[49:38.990 --> 49:39.610]  Go ahead.
[49:40.490 --> 49:41.050]  Yes, hi.
[49:41.150 --> 49:47.690]  My name is Vanessa, and I spoke with you a few weeks ago concerning my computer and virus on it.
[49:47.910 --> 49:56.750]  And I did, I took your advice and got on the website that we're supposed to clean up the viruses.
[49:57.170 --> 49:59.770]  Are you sure this was us, or it could have been the personal computer show?
[50:01.290 --> 50:03.030]  Oh, yeah, it was a computer show.
[50:03.030 --> 50:05.950]  Okay, well, the personal computer show starts in another 13 minutes.
[50:06.250 --> 50:07.210]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[50:07.270 --> 50:07.730]  Oh, it's okay.
[50:07.930 --> 50:08.670]  No problem at all.
[50:08.770 --> 50:09.270]  All right, okay.
[50:09.430 --> 50:09.610]  Bye-bye.
[50:09.610 --> 50:14.370]  So far, we've given out a URL that didn't need to be given out three times and answered a question for a different show.
[50:14.710 --> 50:16.930]  Let's go over here and see who this call is for.
[50:16.990 --> 50:17.230]  Good evening.
[50:17.350 --> 50:17.670]  You're on the air.
[50:19.130 --> 50:19.570]  Go ahead.
[50:19.570 --> 50:20.030]  I'm on the air.
[50:20.210 --> 50:20.970]  You're on the air.
[50:21.030 --> 50:21.790]  Oh, okay.
[50:22.010 --> 50:23.390]  I'm calling from Brazil.
[50:23.770 --> 50:24.510]  You're kidding.
[50:25.190 --> 50:25.630]  Yeah.
[50:25.950 --> 50:26.390]  Wow.
[50:26.710 --> 50:28.450]  I don't know if you've ever gotten a call from Brazil before.
[50:29.950 --> 50:31.930]  I'm the one who sent the letter.
[50:32.870 --> 50:33.650]  Oh, okay.
[50:33.710 --> 50:34.190]  Okay, yeah.
[50:34.270 --> 50:34.570]  I remember.
[50:35.150 --> 50:36.690]  Yeah, but it's not about that.
[50:36.690 --> 50:38.290]  It's about electronic voting.
[50:38.490 --> 50:38.790]  Okay.
[50:39.070 --> 50:41.810]  Which you have electronic voting down there in Brazil, do you not?
[50:42.350 --> 50:43.590]  Yeah, it's pretty big.
[50:43.590 --> 50:47.290]  It's like a hundred million voters using it.
[50:47.570 --> 50:48.990]  And is it like utopian?
[50:48.990 --> 50:52.170]  Is it like the answer to everybody's problems, electronic voting?
[50:52.710 --> 50:55.890]  Well, since it's a big election, it's good.
[50:56.090 --> 50:59.430]  But, you know, yeah, I think it's good.
[50:59.590 --> 51:03.510]  Well, first of all, how long did it take to count the votes when it wasn't electronic?
[51:07.650 --> 51:09.230]  About two weeks, maybe.
[51:09.230 --> 51:09.630]  Really?
[51:09.910 --> 51:10.750]  Took that long, huh?
[51:11.670 --> 51:12.070]  Interesting.
[51:12.310 --> 51:12.350]  Yeah.
[51:12.350 --> 51:16.470]  Okay, so my next question then is, what kind of safeguards do you have?
[51:16.470 --> 51:21.050]  When you place your vote, how do you know that your vote...
[51:21.050 --> 51:26.070]  Let's say that somebody just was able to make a completely fraudulent result appear.
[51:26.370 --> 51:29.430]  Is there a paper record of some sort that they can go back and check?
[51:30.350 --> 51:40.430]  Well, the machine prints out the number of people who voted for each candidate, but it doesn't print out your name with your vote.
[51:41.390 --> 51:45.690]  Okay, how do you know, though, that that printout isn't also incorrect?
[51:48.670 --> 51:50.470]  Well, you don't.
[51:50.570 --> 51:51.410]  Yeah, you really don't.
[51:52.050 --> 51:53.010]  Of course, you don't...
[51:53.010 --> 51:53.090]  No.
[51:53.090 --> 51:58.990]  You know, in all fairness, with the mechanical polls that we have out here, you don't really know that those are going to tell the right bit of information either.
[51:59.170 --> 52:03.650]  It's just computers are easier to manipulate, you know, a lot cleaner to manipulate.
[52:04.330 --> 52:08.170]  So, and, you know, working with computers, I've seen this happen.
[52:08.770 --> 52:12.250]  And it kind of, you know, makes me worry a little bit when people put their faith in it.
[52:13.770 --> 52:14.910]  Oh, yeah.
[52:15.770 --> 52:17.770]  Well, I think it's a good system.
[52:17.990 --> 52:27.030]  But, you know, I think if you're going to have fraud, you can have it anyway, if you bribe the right person.
[52:28.190 --> 52:28.770]  Well, yes.
[52:28.970 --> 52:30.670]  I mean, that's the American way.
[52:31.430 --> 52:34.650]  But, yeah, you know, it's...
[52:34.650 --> 52:36.450]  Do you know who makes your electronic voting system?
[52:37.770 --> 52:38.650]  I'm sorry, what?
[52:38.730 --> 52:40.990]  Do you know who the company is who makes your electronic voting system?
[52:42.470 --> 52:43.510]  Oh, Unisys.
[52:43.850 --> 52:50.750]  It was a system made just for the electronic voting, the operational system, the software, everything.
[52:51.130 --> 52:51.370]  Uh-huh.
[52:51.770 --> 52:52.630]  And you said Unisys?
[52:54.030 --> 52:54.450]  Unisys.
[52:54.570 --> 52:54.670]  Unisys.
[52:54.670 --> 52:55.790]  Yeah, it's a Brazilian company.
[52:56.670 --> 52:57.090]  Okay.
[52:57.230 --> 52:58.590]  Well, we have a Unisys up here, too.
[52:59.490 --> 53:00.710]  Don't believe it's Brazilian, though.
[53:00.850 --> 53:01.230]  Oh, okay.
[53:01.390 --> 53:02.030]  How do you spell it?
[53:03.950 --> 53:07.750]  U-N-I-S-Y-S.
[53:07.910 --> 53:09.650]  Yeah, that's the same Unisys we have up here.
[53:09.970 --> 53:11.070]  Well, we'll look into this.
[53:11.430 --> 53:12.150]  We'll look into that.
[53:12.150 --> 53:14.290]  Any other observations from Brazil?
[53:16.290 --> 53:17.210]  I guess not.
[53:17.210 --> 53:24.010]  I know quite a bit about how the machines work, but other than that...
[53:24.010 --> 53:25.470]  Well, would you like to write an article about it?
[53:27.770 --> 53:29.690]  Because we'd love to print an article about that.
[53:30.630 --> 53:38.990]  Okay, because I have, like, a security report here, but it's in Portuguese, 51 pages, and it's detailed.
[53:39.530 --> 53:40.030]  Wow.
[53:40.030 --> 53:41.810]  It's open to the public, you know.
[53:42.330 --> 53:46.390]  The electoral court gave it to...
[53:46.390 --> 53:55.210]  gave all the source code and hardware and software to a university, and the university made a security report on the system, and it's open to the public.
[53:55.230 --> 53:58.530]  So I guess that's good.
[53:58.690 --> 53:59.850]  So it's an open-source system?
[54:00.910 --> 54:02.770]  No, it's not.
[54:02.950 --> 54:06.510]  I mean, only the university had access to that to make the report.
[54:06.750 --> 54:07.390]  I see.
[54:07.390 --> 54:08.810]  Is the report online?
[54:10.330 --> 54:11.950]  It is online in Portuguese.
[54:12.610 --> 54:17.070]  If you could email us the URL or tell us what it is now, we'd love to hear.
[54:17.190 --> 54:23.070]  We could try translating it through Babelfish or other online translation services.
[54:23.170 --> 54:25.210]  Or maybe our listener would like to translate it, too.
[54:25.290 --> 54:26.990]  I don't know if you're interested in doing something like that.
[54:27.050 --> 54:28.330]  Well, that seems pretty extensive.
[54:29.130 --> 54:30.590]  I could do that, yeah.
[54:30.890 --> 54:36.630]  Okay, well, it sounds like something that would be of great interest, especially over here where electronic voting is almost at our throats.
[54:37.610 --> 54:38.570]  So, uh...
[54:38.570 --> 54:39.290]  There's probably a hundred...
[54:39.290 --> 54:41.790]  Are you saying a hundred million people vote in Brazil?
[54:42.090 --> 54:43.870]  Or is that the population?
[54:44.670 --> 54:45.270]  No, no.
[54:45.370 --> 54:50.150]  A hundred million people vote and the population is over that because voting is mandatory here.
[54:50.150 --> 54:50.750]  That's more people than...
[54:50.750 --> 54:52.850]  That's a lot more people than vote in the United States.
[54:53.250 --> 54:54.210]  No, it's about the same.
[54:54.910 --> 54:56.550]  Voting is mandatory here.
[54:57.010 --> 54:57.470]  Ah.
[54:57.870 --> 54:58.890]  What if you don't vote?
[54:58.890 --> 54:59.350]  What happens?
[55:01.010 --> 55:04.130]  Well, basically, you pay a 50 cent fine.
[55:04.410 --> 55:11.770]  But until you pay that fine, you have problems getting passports and working in public service and things like that.
[55:12.390 --> 55:12.750]  Interesting.
[55:13.310 --> 55:13.470]  Hmm.
[55:13.630 --> 55:13.890]  Interesting.
[55:14.070 --> 55:14.190]  Yes.
[55:14.250 --> 55:14.690]  Very interesting.
[55:16.390 --> 55:19.270]  Here, they'd probably tell you that you've lost your right to vote.
[55:20.370 --> 55:21.850]  That would be their way of punishing you.
[55:21.890 --> 55:22.450]  Oh, that also, yeah.
[55:22.670 --> 55:22.830]  Yeah.
[55:23.290 --> 55:23.810]  All right.
[55:23.930 --> 55:25.610]  Well, do you have a URL to give us?
[55:27.350 --> 55:30.330]  Oh, www dot...
[55:33.670 --> 55:34.710]  Oh, man.
[55:34.910 --> 55:35.690]  I forgot it.
[55:35.830 --> 55:35.990]  Okay.
[55:36.110 --> 55:37.110]  Well, email it to us.
[55:37.190 --> 55:38.010]  We'll announce it over the radio.
[55:39.290 --> 55:39.910]  Oh, dot...
[55:39.910 --> 55:40.030]  Dot...
[55:40.030 --> 55:43.150]  T-S-E dot com dot P-R.
[55:43.470 --> 55:44.470]  But it's in Portuguese.
[55:44.470 --> 55:46.370]  If you follow the links, you'll get it.
[55:46.470 --> 55:48.890]  I don't have the exact document URL.
[55:49.450 --> 55:49.850]  Okay.
[55:49.910 --> 55:55.510]  Well, we'd definitely be interested in an article about this because electronic voting is definitely something we want to cover.
[55:56.470 --> 55:56.870]  Okay.
[55:57.030 --> 55:57.210]  All right.
[55:57.430 --> 56:00.150]  Thanks so much for your call and best of luck to you down there in Brazil.
[56:01.150 --> 56:01.710]  Thank you.
[56:01.810 --> 56:03.030]  I love your work and the show.
[56:03.130 --> 56:03.430]  Thank you.
[56:03.610 --> 56:04.110]  Thanks for calling.
[56:04.650 --> 56:05.810]  Our first call from Brazil.
[56:05.890 --> 56:06.150]  Yes, Jim.
[56:06.230 --> 56:06.730]  That's impressive.
[56:06.950 --> 56:08.690]  A little bit about voting here.
[56:09.170 --> 56:14.890]  There have been copies of voter registration from New York State in a certain New York newspaper.
[56:15.010 --> 56:15.870]  I can't remember which one.
[56:16.050 --> 56:22.290]  But what strikes me as interesting is now you have to supposedly identify yourself if you register to vote.
[56:22.410 --> 56:28.110]  And what they want is either a photocopy of a government-issued ID or a photocopy of a utility bill.
[56:28.190 --> 56:32.650]  And I'm thinking, gee, with Photoshop, how easy is that to commit fraud with?
[56:33.590 --> 56:34.330]  Not too hard.
[56:34.970 --> 56:35.310]  Good evening.
[56:35.430 --> 56:35.610]  You're on.
[56:35.970 --> 56:36.410]  Oh.
[56:37.010 --> 56:37.850]  What a shame.
[56:38.390 --> 56:39.250]  Let's go over here.
[56:40.470 --> 56:41.230]  And good evening.
[56:41.310 --> 56:41.630]  You're on.
[56:42.670 --> 56:43.110]  Hello?
[56:43.310 --> 56:43.770]  Yes, go ahead.
[56:43.770 --> 56:44.250]  Hi.
[56:44.510 --> 56:45.110]  Two things.
[56:45.370 --> 56:59.470]  One, I think you have talked in the past about the electronic voting in India where they actually used some, you know, pre-manufactured boards instead of some software being loaded on the machines.
[56:59.890 --> 57:08.170]  And at least, you know, the ruling party lost in the election and nobody expressed any unhappiness at fraud, even though there was a lot of concern beforehand.
[57:08.530 --> 57:10.070]  And, you know, also there was...
[57:10.070 --> 57:15.990]  I saw this full-page ad a while ago in the Times by some company that provided the machines for Venezuela.
[57:16.790 --> 57:19.690]  And they said that it was extremely successful.
[57:19.990 --> 57:24.070]  And they provided a paper trail as well, they claimed in the ad.
[57:24.290 --> 57:27.310]  But I didn't see any follow-up stories in the press about it.
[57:27.490 --> 57:33.570]  And I have a separate question to ask you, which is, are you going to talk about cell phones anytime?
[57:34.070 --> 57:36.630]  I noticed that, you know, you've sort of...
[57:36.630 --> 57:37.590]  Well, we talk about cell phones.
[57:37.650 --> 57:38.910]  Is this something you'd like to know about cell phones?
[57:38.910 --> 57:39.390]  Well, no, no.
[57:39.470 --> 57:46.190]  I have a very specific thing having to do with, you know, bugs in the software that does the billing.
[57:47.210 --> 57:56.830]  And over the last three years, I've found, you know, at least two major bugs with my own billing, which one is able to find because they provide all this detailed information.
[57:57.150 --> 57:58.870]  Well, would you like to share with us the specifics?
[57:59.550 --> 58:00.930]  Sure, I don't mind telling you.
[58:01.290 --> 58:08.430]  One of them was a very interesting bug in that all of a sudden, my bill went from $120 to $400.
[58:08.970 --> 58:17.070]  And then when I looked into it, I found that my daughter, who has the main phone, was out of the New York area.
[58:18.390 --> 58:29.530]  And all her calls to and from people who were not in New York were not counted as mobile-to-mobile calls, even though they were Verizon customers.
[58:29.530 --> 58:31.710]  I'm sorry, I should have mentioned it's all Verizon.
[58:31.870 --> 58:32.070]  Okay.
[58:32.470 --> 58:33.930]  And, but it was a cure.
[58:34.090 --> 58:36.790]  And then I went back and looked at previous bills and it's fun.
[58:36.910 --> 58:45.610]  I found that, in fact, going back further, the same thing had happened, except that her travel had not been so much that I had gone over my allowance.
[58:46.610 --> 58:49.590]  And so I'm sort of thrashing it out with them right now.
[58:49.810 --> 58:51.590]  You know, I'm sure they will give me credit finally.
[58:51.830 --> 58:56.170]  Well, it sounds like they charge you a roaming fee or something for being out of the area, even though the same company.
[58:56.170 --> 58:56.790]  No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[58:56.790 --> 58:59.350]  It was just recorded as a non-mobile call.
[59:00.170 --> 59:07.970]  So, but as for the other party's bill, it was recorded as a mobile call because one of them happened to be, you know, my account as well on the West Coast.
[59:08.170 --> 59:16.490]  But it is a very interesting bug in that when she called New York numbers, it was recorded correctly as a mobile call.
[59:17.010 --> 59:17.490]  Interesting.
[59:17.770 --> 59:31.710]  And so if there is some bug, you know, somewhere in their hardware, I guess, which doesn't recognize the call at least from her end as a mobile call, you know, as a in-network, as they call it.
[59:31.730 --> 59:34.270]  Or they're trying to get away with something and figuring nobody's going to notice.
[59:34.610 --> 59:35.070]  That's right.
[59:35.190 --> 59:36.030]  So that's the other possibility.
[59:36.210 --> 59:54.050]  But then I wonder how widespread can, because, you know, I have the ability and time to take this 28-page bill, download it, stick it into an Excel file, and sort it by various fields, and then look for, you know, why my bill is high all of a sudden.
[59:54.090 --> 59:58.170]  Well, I'm glad you're out there doing that, because you're able to catch all kinds of interesting things as a result.
[59:58.370 --> 01:00:00.390]  Right, but then it becomes an individual thing, right?
[01:00:00.470 --> 01:00:04.550]  I mean, it just becomes something they say, okay, we're sorry, we made the mistake.
[01:00:05.690 --> 01:00:11.590]  But, so, are there discussion groups, things like that, that discuss these topics?
[01:00:11.830 --> 01:00:14.190]  Because I want to know how widespread this problem is.
[01:00:14.210 --> 01:00:17.350]  There's all kinds of discussion groups on the web.
[01:00:17.350 --> 01:00:22.450]  If you search in Google for cellular phone discussions, I guess, you'll find all kinds of things.
[01:00:23.590 --> 01:00:25.210]  I don't know the specific one.
[01:00:25.510 --> 01:00:28.370]  Right, but I did some Googling just on Verizon and something.
[01:00:28.630 --> 01:00:33.250]  I just hit some things having to do with the landline, you know, the landline system.
[01:00:33.450 --> 01:00:34.450]  Well, try Verizon Wireless.
[01:00:34.630 --> 01:00:36.830]  Anyway, we're going to have to cut this off because we're out of time.
[01:00:37.290 --> 01:00:42.890]  I want to thank everybody for calling in, and we'll be in touch next week.
[01:00:43.030 --> 01:00:44.610]  Don't forget, meetings are this Friday.
[01:00:45.430 --> 01:00:47.910]  That's 2600 meetings taking place all around the world.
[01:00:47.910 --> 01:00:50.770]  Check www.2600.com slash meetings.
[01:00:50.950 --> 01:00:51.450]  See you next week.
[01:00:51.570 --> 01:00:51.790]  Good night.
[01:00:51.790 --> 01:01:22.310]  Tears on your black veil Return to ransom A point of the fingernail Sends us unhandsome Clean time is over Time to take over While others just talk and talk Somebody is watching...