[00:00.000 --> 00:02.880]  Headlines editors are Randy Zimmerman and Nell Abram.
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[00:21.780 --> 00:24.360]  That's fsrn.org.
[00:24.860 --> 00:27.260]  In Los Angeles, I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:31.750 --> 00:34.470]  And in New York, this is WBAI, New York.
[00:34.650 --> 00:35.650]  Time for Off the Hook.
[00:40.850 --> 00:45.270]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:46.290 --> 00:50.730]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:51.450 --> 00:53.570]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:56.510 --> 00:59.010]  Diddly bump for the best, expect the worst.
[00:59.670 --> 01:01.550]  I hope that's understood.
[01:01.790 --> 01:02.490]  One diddly bump!
[01:34.580 --> 01:35.780]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:35.880 --> 01:36.780]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:36.880 --> 01:38.760]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for this hour.
[01:38.760 --> 01:40.980]  We haven't been on the air for the last three weeks.
[01:41.080 --> 01:44.100]  Last time we were on the air, we were in the middle of a fundraiser.
[01:44.400 --> 01:45.520]  We were on for a single hour.
[01:45.660 --> 01:47.820]  We raised about $2,700, which is great.
[01:47.960 --> 01:49.760]  Thanks so much to all you people who pledged.
[01:50.680 --> 01:53.680]  And, of course, now the important part is paying the pledge.
[01:53.900 --> 01:56.840]  But hopefully you all know how to do that.
[01:57.700 --> 02:02.140]  Another programming note, we're not going to be on next week because of a Black History Month special.
[02:03.380 --> 02:07.080]  So we're going to have to pack a lot of material into this hour that we have right now.
[02:07.080 --> 02:10.100]  Boy, do we have a lot to talk about because so much has been going on.
[02:12.040 --> 02:14.500]  Let's start with the corporate stuff first.
[02:14.720 --> 02:18.820]  We've had all kinds of craziness going on in the news.
[02:18.820 --> 02:19.700]  You might have heard about it.
[02:19.740 --> 02:20.520]  You might have read about it.
[02:22.180 --> 02:22.980]  Merger mania.
[02:23.880 --> 02:26.900]  And, boy, we thought we saw it before.
[02:27.680 --> 02:29.560]  But it's going crazy now.
[02:29.760 --> 02:31.140]  It's simply out of control.
[02:32.500 --> 02:34.040]  Bernie, you're down there in Philadelphia.
[02:34.040 --> 02:35.580]  You've been following this thing like a hawk.
[02:35.660 --> 02:37.460]  Tell us, what's the latest?
[02:37.460 --> 02:40.040]  Who's buying who and who owns what?
[02:40.500 --> 02:44.240]  You know, you turn your backs on the telecom companies.
[02:44.680 --> 02:47.260]  We turn our backs on them for, what, two or three weeks?
[02:47.380 --> 02:49.040]  And look what they do behind our backs.
[02:49.580 --> 02:53.220]  They just go in this crazy buying spree of each other.
[02:53.380 --> 02:54.640]  It's a crazy quilt.
[02:55.440 --> 03:01.200]  So, you know, we've got Verizon purchasing MCI.
[03:02.940 --> 03:08.140]  We've got AT&T now being purchased by SBC.
[03:08.700 --> 03:13.680]  It's like all the baby bells are eating Ma Bell up.
[03:14.480 --> 03:17.080]  It's like, it's going full circle.
[03:17.200 --> 03:26.420]  I came up with a term, okay, because I figured, you know, this all started back in the early 80s when Ma Bell was broken up and you had the baby bells, known as the Aura Box.
[03:26.560 --> 03:29.620]  You had 9X and U.S.
[03:29.720 --> 03:32.220]  West and all, you know, all these different companies that have since been...
[03:32.220 --> 03:32.820]  Can you name all seven of them?
[03:33.220 --> 03:34.020]  Okay, I can try.
[03:35.260 --> 03:39.180]  9X, Southwestern Bell, Bell South, Ameritech, U.S.
[03:39.400 --> 03:42.240]  West, and...
[03:42.240 --> 03:42.580]  Pac-Bell.
[03:42.800 --> 03:43.420]  Pac-Bell.
[03:43.580 --> 03:44.540]  Wait, is it Pac-Bell?
[03:45.360 --> 03:46.000]  Pacific Telesis.
[03:46.060 --> 03:46.780]  Pacific Telesis.
[03:46.880 --> 03:47.160]  That was it.
[03:47.160 --> 03:47.780]  I knew it was a weird one.
[03:47.940 --> 03:49.120]  Is that all of them or is there another one?
[03:50.020 --> 03:53.980]  What is now SBC was originally Southwestern Bell Corporation.
[03:54.680 --> 03:55.100]  Right, okay.
[03:55.180 --> 03:56.300]  I named Southwestern Bell.
[03:56.460 --> 03:56.680]  Okay.
[03:56.940 --> 03:57.200]  All right.
[03:57.500 --> 03:58.640]  Did you leave out Bell Atlantic?
[03:58.940 --> 04:00.280]  Well, Bell Atlantic...
[04:00.280 --> 04:00.920]  That's right.
[04:01.020 --> 04:01.420]  That was one of them.
[04:01.560 --> 04:02.580]  Bell Atlantic was one of them too.
[04:02.820 --> 04:03.400]  No, no, Bell...
[04:03.400 --> 04:05.860]  Ameritech, 9X, Bell Atlantic...
[04:05.860 --> 04:06.260]  Okay, yeah.
[04:06.340 --> 04:08.800]  Pacific Telesis, Bell South, U.S.
[04:08.860 --> 04:11.680]  West, and Southwestern Bell were the original seven baby bells.
[04:11.780 --> 04:14.920]  And we've seen 9X fall into Bell Atlantic.
[04:15.120 --> 04:16.700]  We've seen Bell Atlantic fall into Verizon.
[04:17.040 --> 04:18.520]  Now Verizon taking over MCI.
[04:18.520 --> 04:22.720]  But the term I came up with, because they were baby bells...
[04:22.720 --> 04:27.500]  Now the baby bell has sort of swallowed up the mother bell of AT&T.
[04:28.260 --> 04:31.880]  I was going to say teen bells because, you know, they're sort of growing up.
[04:31.940 --> 04:33.840]  But I realize now they're more than 20 years old.
[04:34.000 --> 04:35.120]  So that doesn't work either.
[04:35.280 --> 04:38.800]  So I was thinking young bell would be a good phrase.
[04:38.800 --> 04:45.740]  But I noticed that an FCC commissioner already came up with a phrase, and this is probably the one that's going to stick, even though it doesn't make any sense, of Papa Bell.
[04:46.060 --> 04:49.300]  And I'm just thinking, you know, these bells are only about 20 years old.
[04:49.480 --> 04:51.900]  How could they be Papas unless they're promiscuous?
[04:52.400 --> 04:52.880]  You know?
[04:52.940 --> 04:53.560]  They are promiscuous.
[04:53.660 --> 04:53.900]  Yeah.
[04:53.900 --> 04:57.480]  So I don't know what they're trying to say, the FCC people there, Jim.
[04:57.820 --> 04:58.940]  How about Oedipus Bell?
[05:00.020 --> 05:05.400]  I think they'll fly over the head of most people, but it's interesting, though.
[05:05.960 --> 05:06.400]  Yeah.
[05:06.780 --> 05:11.400]  Anyway, so Bernie, what else can you tell us about who owns what and who's buying who?
[05:11.400 --> 05:20.620]  It's almost hard to know where to approach this from, because I tried to draw a map of what's been going on since 1984 with all these buyouts and mergers.
[05:21.280 --> 05:22.960]  It's just this crazy quilt.
[05:23.360 --> 05:28.900]  The bottom line is this is not really good news for the consumer, because there'll be far less choices.
[05:29.560 --> 05:38.380]  And the big thing to me is that the long-distance industry has basically ceased this now.
[05:39.440 --> 05:45.240]  And that's just a mind-boggling concept, that long-distance, as we know it, is pretty much gone.
[05:47.080 --> 05:50.940]  All long-distance companies are being purchased by local exchange carriers.
[05:51.480 --> 05:57.120]  But also, the cost of phone calls, though, for long-distance is pretty much the same as a local call, too.
[05:57.240 --> 05:58.840]  So does that not make some degree of sense?
[05:59.120 --> 05:59.820]  It does.
[06:00.000 --> 06:03.780]  But, you know, we've always, you know, our whole lives, we've thought of a long-distance call.
[06:03.900 --> 06:08.960]  You know, you and I remember, and many of our listeners, listeners shoot, probably remember, oh, it's a long-distance call.
[06:09.100 --> 06:09.480]  I gotta...
[06:09.480 --> 06:10.300]  Don't disturb me.
[06:10.380 --> 06:11.300]  I'm on a long-distance call.
[06:11.400 --> 06:12.080]  Like, it's expensive.
[06:12.320 --> 06:13.660]  I'm on long-distance to Chicago.
[06:13.860 --> 06:13.940]  Yeah.
[06:15.120 --> 06:15.520]  Oh, yes.
[06:15.520 --> 06:19.800]  And now it's virtually the cost of a local call, sometimes less than a local call.
[06:20.000 --> 06:24.620]  Sometimes it's free if you're using, you know, voice over IP or Skype or something like that.
[06:24.700 --> 06:25.480]  Well, that's another thing.
[06:25.640 --> 06:29.860]  Now, don't those companies qualify as long-distance companies that are independent from all this?
[06:30.180 --> 06:36.900]  Well, not in a conventional sense, because they're not deemed by the FCC as long-distance carriers.
[06:37.640 --> 06:40.960]  They're not telecommunication services yet.
[06:41.120 --> 06:42.580]  So, that may change.
[06:42.580 --> 06:45.200]  But the FCC does not consider them long-distance companies.
[06:45.440 --> 06:46.540]  So, by their...
[06:46.540 --> 06:51.320]  By the legal definition that matters from a regulatory standpoint, they're not long-distance companies.
[06:52.780 --> 06:53.000]  Okay.
[06:54.180 --> 06:58.080]  So, anything else as far as this buying binge?
[06:58.520 --> 07:03.920]  Well, we recently covered Sprint's purchase of Nextel.
[07:04.140 --> 07:07.620]  So, the wireless companies are merging as well.
[07:08.120 --> 07:25.000]  And last year, people remember, as correctly predicted on the show, that Singular purchased AT&T Wireless, which AT&T spun off a few years ago, their own... they spun off their wireless division, and it was gobbled up by... who did I just say?
[07:25.120 --> 07:25.300]  Singular.
[07:25.300 --> 07:25.960]  I can't keep track of this.
[07:26.080 --> 07:26.400]  Singular.
[07:26.500 --> 07:26.860]  Thank you, Singular.
[07:27.900 --> 07:35.980]  Which, Singular was... why don't you name the predecessors of those other GSM carriers?
[07:35.980 --> 07:47.840]  You know, it used to be that we'd memorize the names of kings and presidents and things like that, but I think American school kids now are memorizing corporations and who's, you know, divided up into which... which kingdom.
[07:48.220 --> 07:51.200]  The dynastic lineages of the various...
[07:51.200 --> 07:52.680]  It really... it's a book right there.
[07:52.800 --> 07:53.600]  It really is.
[07:53.840 --> 07:56.100]  And some entire technologies are going away, too.
[07:56.600 --> 08:04.260]  IDEN, which is the protocol, the base technology behind Nextel with its... with its push-to-talk feature.
[08:05.700 --> 08:10.780]  Sprint, which just bought Nextel, is going to just phase that out.
[08:10.900 --> 08:18.820]  So everybody who has an Nextel phone now will have to get rid of their phone within, I think, two or three years, because Sprint is phasing out.
[08:19.760 --> 08:21.200]  They may be getting new phones anyway.
[08:21.300 --> 08:21.620]  Hold on.
[08:21.660 --> 08:21.860]  Hold on.
[08:21.940 --> 08:22.300]  Open the window.
[08:22.660 --> 08:25.900]  I want to hear the mass amount of cursing that's going on in the city right now.
[08:26.860 --> 08:27.700]  Oh, it's out there.
[08:27.760 --> 08:28.140]  It's out there.
[08:28.380 --> 08:31.840]  People are reacting with disbelief and anger and shock and outrage.
[08:32.720 --> 08:33.040]  Yes.
[08:33.140 --> 08:37.020]  If you have a Nextel phone, you will have to get rid of it pretty soon.
[08:37.760 --> 08:42.480]  And is Sprint going to provide these new phones free of charge, or do they expect them to pay for them?
[08:42.720 --> 08:43.560]  That's a good question.
[08:43.940 --> 08:47.140]  They're going to have to make some kind of concession, I imagine, or they're going to lose customers.
[08:47.420 --> 08:52.340]  I mean, if I were a Nextel customer and Sprint said, well, you've got to buy a new phone if you want to stay with it, I'd just say, well, fine.
[08:52.340 --> 08:53.180]  I'll go to somebody else.
[08:53.340 --> 08:54.560]  I'm going to have to buy a new phone anyway.
[08:55.920 --> 09:01.400]  Apart from changing the technology, though, is that going to mean something for the way the system operates?
[09:01.580 --> 09:06.240]  Will Nextel users still be able to annoy people sitting next to them on trains by talking on two-way radios?
[09:06.400 --> 09:22.100]  It will be even more annoying, because the CDMA technology that Sprint uses... I mean, Sprint has a similar push-a-talk technology now that they've come out with, but the latency is much greater than the iDen technology, which Motorola developed and is used by Nextel.
[09:22.300 --> 09:36.280]  So it's not instantaneous now with Nextel, but it adds like a half a second to a whole second to each push-a-talk thing with Sprint's version of push-a-talk.
[09:36.440 --> 09:52.460]  So the latency is getting worse, and they keep compressing the vocoders down to like... When these PCS services started, the vocoders were sampling our voices at like 13 kilobits per second, which sounded pretty good back in like 97, 98, when these digital phone services started.
[09:52.680 --> 10:01.520]  But now as the phones come out, new phones come out, the cell phone companies are saying, oh, we want this phone to have a lower sampling rate.
[10:01.580 --> 10:13.520]  So now the vocoders are down about 4 kilobits per second, which is why cell phone calls, like this Sprint PCS call, doesn't sound as good as anywhere near as good as a landline or as an old analog phone.
[10:13.740 --> 10:22.440]  Now this phone may sound better than most because it's a six-year-old handset, and I just have refused to get rid of it because it has a slow vocoder, which is better.
[10:22.880 --> 10:24.920]  But one of these days, I'm going to have to get a new phone.
[10:25.560 --> 10:30.660]  Well, now if you continue to take care of the phone the way you do, I've seen how you baby that thing.
[10:30.960 --> 10:32.820]  Yeah, it's wrapped up in scotch tape right now.
[10:32.820 --> 10:34.220]  It's really an unbelievable sight.
[10:34.700 --> 10:50.000]  Now, Bernie, moving along to other topics, you sent a package up to Redbird in the past couple of weeks with all kinds of interesting little tokens and devices and things that you brought back from your trip to Thailand.
[10:50.180 --> 10:56.400]  Now, Redbird, maybe you could give us a slight guide to some of these things and ask any questions of Bernie as to just what these things are.
[10:56.680 --> 11:00.100]  Well, I got it in the mail today, so I haven't had that much time to look over everything.
[11:00.300 --> 11:03.560]  But there's quite a few cards here.
[11:05.040 --> 11:09.960]  I guess I'll just mention what's here, and Bernie can describe them better because I haven't had that much time to look over them.
[11:10.380 --> 11:11.760]  A lot of transit things there.
[11:11.760 --> 11:11.940]  Right.
[11:12.000 --> 11:17.660]  There's two transit cards that, they're the exact same size as Metro cards without the notch.
[11:19.360 --> 11:20.480]  But they have the hole.
[11:20.560 --> 11:26.080]  Right, but they have the hole, so do Metro cards, and that's used for the machine to feed them into.
[11:26.580 --> 11:26.740]  Okay.
[11:26.820 --> 11:35.800]  And there's something very interesting about these cards is that you, at first glance, they just look like standard plastic cards, nothing special about them except, you know, they're printed on.
[11:35.900 --> 11:39.420]  But the magnetic stripes on both of the cards are very well concealed.
[11:39.420 --> 11:43.360]  You can barely see them on one card, and on the other card, you can't see them at all.
[11:43.900 --> 11:46.220]  Yeah, you showed me this before, and it's unbelievable.
[11:46.380 --> 11:49.860]  There is, you know, I would swear there is no magnetic stripe on that card.
[11:50.480 --> 11:52.660]  How are we able to find out that that was a magnetic stripe?
[11:52.840 --> 12:00.340]  If I run it through a reader, I have a reader that I described before with an audio interface, and you're able to hear that there's actually data on it.
[12:00.360 --> 12:01.380]  Is that what that is right there, a reader?
[12:01.620 --> 12:02.560]  Why don't you run it through the reader?
[12:02.740 --> 12:08.220]  First, run something through the reader that doesn't have a magnetic stripe on it, and we can hear the sound that it doesn't make.
[12:08.220 --> 12:08.740]  All right.
[12:08.900 --> 12:09.380]  Well, let's see.
[12:10.720 --> 12:12.680]  First, let me... Let's hold up the microphone there.
[12:13.540 --> 12:13.780]  Oh, wait.
[12:13.840 --> 12:14.340]  Did you just do it?
[12:14.480 --> 12:14.780]  Oh, okay.
[12:14.840 --> 12:15.480]  Do it now.
[12:16.000 --> 12:16.320]  Okay.
[12:16.960 --> 12:17.780]  You held it away from the mic.
[12:17.840 --> 12:18.000]  Go ahead.
[12:18.220 --> 12:20.520]  Here's something without the magnetic stripe.
[12:21.840 --> 12:22.160]  Okay.
[12:22.160 --> 12:23.700]  You can hear the card moving back and forth.
[12:23.840 --> 12:25.740]  Now, here's what it sounds like with a magnetic stripe.
[12:27.300 --> 12:27.620]  Okay.
[12:27.800 --> 12:28.560]  Interesting sound there.
[12:28.580 --> 12:29.160]  What is that sound?
[12:29.280 --> 12:30.400]  Well, that's FSK.
[12:30.680 --> 12:40.980]  So if any ham radio operators or any similar field has ever heard, you know, transmission of FSK data, that's what it sounds like.
[12:41.140 --> 12:42.260]  What is an FSK?
[12:42.940 --> 12:43.440]  Excuse me?
[12:44.120 --> 12:45.040]  Frequency shift keying.
[12:45.140 --> 12:45.500]  Right, right.
[12:46.020 --> 12:47.980]  So... It's like two tones that switch back and forth.
[12:48.060 --> 12:48.220]  Exactly.
[12:48.280 --> 12:49.820]  High tone and a low tone.
[12:49.940 --> 12:52.500]  One is a one and one is a zero and you've got your binary data.
[12:52.720 --> 12:54.620]  Now, you were rubbing the card back and forth.
[12:54.780 --> 12:55.420]  I was doing it back and forth.
[12:55.540 --> 12:56.920]  Can you just do it one way?
[12:57.040 --> 12:58.700]  Then we can hear what the actual thing sounds like.
[12:58.840 --> 12:58.880]  Sure.
[13:01.000 --> 13:01.320]  Okay.
[13:01.420 --> 13:03.000]  That's what it should sound like.
[13:03.160 --> 13:04.400]  Now, what kind of data is in there?
[13:04.900 --> 13:07.940]  It's... All it is is a string of binary zeros and ones.
[13:07.940 --> 13:10.080]  So from there, you would have to decode further.
[13:10.640 --> 13:13.460]  For these cards, there's no standard that I know of.
[13:13.500 --> 13:14.360]  I can't decode them yet.
[13:14.480 --> 13:19.000]  But for standard credit cards, you would have something such as... Take my MetroCard.
[13:19.080 --> 13:19.640]  Rub that through there.
[13:19.880 --> 13:20.860]  I wonder what that sounds like.
[13:22.600 --> 13:23.600]  This is my MetroCard.
[13:23.820 --> 13:24.180]  Go ahead.
[13:28.230 --> 13:28.590]  Wow.
[13:28.750 --> 13:28.930]  Okay.
[13:29.490 --> 13:30.070]  That's... All right.
[13:30.210 --> 13:30.490]  Interesting.
[13:31.570 --> 13:33.450]  So what else did Bernie send you in that little pack?
[13:33.530 --> 13:34.530]  Give me the MetroCard back, please.
[13:34.790 --> 13:35.150]  Yes, yes.
[13:35.390 --> 13:35.850]  Thank you.
[13:37.230 --> 13:37.730]  All right.
[13:38.590 --> 13:38.950]  Yes.
[13:38.990 --> 13:39.950]  What else did Bernie send you?
[13:39.950 --> 13:40.370]  All right.
[13:40.510 --> 13:43.990]  So continuing with the transit stuff, he sent an RFID token.
[13:44.630 --> 13:46.490]  And I don't know anything about this token.
[13:46.550 --> 13:50.410]  It's a black... It's just a black circle, basically.
[13:50.490 --> 13:54.010]  It looks like a cheap piece of plastic, you know, cutout.
[13:54.130 --> 13:55.970]  Something you'd use in a board game, maybe.
[13:56.030 --> 13:56.790]  Or a poker chip.
[13:57.050 --> 13:57.930]  Yeah, maybe a poker chip.
[13:58.050 --> 13:59.870]  Bernie, you never returned my backgammon set.
[13:59.970 --> 14:00.730]  That looks like a piece of it.
[14:00.730 --> 14:02.950]  I think it just... I think to me it looks like a tiddlywink.
[14:03.090 --> 14:05.230]  It's property of the BM... You didn't return that set, either.
[14:05.230 --> 14:07.390]  It's property of the BMC.
[14:08.650 --> 14:11.130]  BMC, it says on it, in very faint type.
[14:11.330 --> 14:13.310]  Are you reading a Thai language, or is that written in English?
[14:13.350 --> 14:14.350]  No, that is written in English.
[14:14.510 --> 14:14.770]  Okay.
[14:14.890 --> 14:16.630]  I did not learn Thai just for this show.
[14:16.830 --> 14:19.530]  It's the Bangkok Metro Company.
[14:19.810 --> 14:20.010]  All right.
[14:20.130 --> 14:25.010]  So now tell us, what is the purpose of this mysterious black thing, Brian?
[14:25.010 --> 14:26.530]  You get on the subway with it.
[14:26.750 --> 14:32.230]  It's just like an old New York City subway token, except it's an RFID transceiver.
[14:32.510 --> 14:35.330]  You don't have to drop it in the machine.
[14:35.330 --> 14:41.710]  You just sort of hold it near the turnstile, and it reads... That's what it sounds like when you drop it on the table.
[14:41.870 --> 14:42.390]  Do that again.
[14:43.790 --> 14:45.090]  It's a plastic tiddlywink.
[14:45.170 --> 14:45.810]  Yeah, that's what it is.
[14:46.290 --> 14:49.070]  So you hold on to this thing, you don't actually drop it into anything?
[14:49.390 --> 14:49.750]  Right.
[14:50.290 --> 14:54.210]  You just wave it... And the fare is deducted from it somehow?
[14:55.810 --> 14:56.090]  Apparently.
[14:56.390 --> 15:01.090]  Now, I haven't figured out how these things work, but you get on, and then when you get off, you've got to wave it again.
[15:01.510 --> 15:01.790]  Okay.
[15:02.090 --> 15:03.050]  Or you can't get out.
[15:03.190 --> 15:04.850]  Could be a future project.
[15:05.230 --> 15:08.930]  What, you have to actually hold the thing up in the air and wave it, or does it stay in your pocket?
[15:08.950 --> 15:10.030]  No, actually, no, that's true.
[15:10.150 --> 15:13.290]  On the way out, you've got to put it in the machine, and it takes it away from you.
[15:13.530 --> 15:13.810]  Ah.
[15:14.710 --> 15:15.930]  So you can only get on with it.
[15:16.010 --> 15:17.170]  You get off, you've got to give it back.
[15:17.810 --> 15:18.090]  Fascinating.
[15:18.490 --> 15:23.650]  And they have people, they have guards standing by the turnstile to make sure you give it back and don't jump over it.
[15:24.370 --> 15:24.810]  Wow.
[15:24.990 --> 15:31.470]  Does anybody, any wise guys out there, you know, paint them white or something, or pretty much follow the rules?
[15:31.750 --> 15:31.990]  Yeah.
[15:32.290 --> 15:32.570]  Even red.
[15:33.810 --> 15:34.450]  What else?
[15:34.490 --> 15:36.290]  What else is in that little magical package there?
[15:36.370 --> 15:37.130]  We have some currency.
[15:37.430 --> 15:38.330]  Oh, you sent money.
[15:39.190 --> 15:39.630]  Interesting.
[15:39.970 --> 15:46.030]  The 50 baht note that there is there, that their currency is the baht, and a baht is worth about two and a half cents.
[15:46.410 --> 15:47.610]  And there's a 50 baht note there.
[15:47.750 --> 15:53.250]  It's the only one of all the denominations that has a clear part of the bill.
[15:53.470 --> 15:56.190]  The bill, the note, actually has a transparent section.
[15:56.350 --> 15:56.710]  Isn't that neat?
[15:56.870 --> 15:57.770]  I noticed.
[15:58.050 --> 16:00.150]  In fact, Redbird's looking at me through it right now.
[16:00.890 --> 16:01.950]  What's the purpose of that?
[16:03.250 --> 16:06.590]  I thought it might be a hologram or something, because I held it up to the light.
[16:06.750 --> 16:10.350]  I didn't expose it to a laser to see if it would, you know, show up a hologram.
[16:10.350 --> 16:10.730]  Uh-huh.
[16:10.810 --> 16:12.530]  Why don't you put it in your microwave oven and see what happens?
[16:13.670 --> 16:15.310]  That would be a bad idea, maybe.
[16:15.590 --> 16:19.070]  It's also... the bill is sort of like a plasticky material.
[16:19.330 --> 16:20.350]  It's not made of a fabric.
[16:20.610 --> 16:22.810]  You know, it seems really like plastic, doesn't it?
[16:23.010 --> 16:23.610]  Yeah, it does.
[16:23.830 --> 16:28.490]  The hull is almost oval-shaped, although not quite.
[16:28.490 --> 16:35.110]  It looks like it was made from some very small French curves, if you remember that, those of you who took mechanical drawing.
[16:35.570 --> 16:41.250]  It's about the size and area of a dime, sort of elongated, and I can see almost nothing on it.
[16:41.350 --> 16:42.850]  There's a 50 on it.
[16:43.310 --> 16:43.870]  Is there really?
[16:44.030 --> 16:44.730]  Oh, yeah.
[16:44.970 --> 16:44.970]  5-0.
[16:45.030 --> 16:45.470]  How about that?
[16:45.510 --> 16:45.890]  Now I see that.
[16:46.070 --> 16:47.590]  Boy, foreign money is so cool.
[16:48.310 --> 16:50.930]  They really... they spend a lot of time working these things out.
[16:50.970 --> 16:55.170]  And there's an interesting watermark above it that there's a rather blank field around it.
[16:55.210 --> 16:58.810]  It's a very bluish note with a sort of red decoration.
[16:58.810 --> 17:00.670]  I have no idea what that represents on it.
[17:00.770 --> 17:01.930]  Now, that's a 50-bott note.
[17:02.350 --> 17:03.070]  So that's like a dollar and a quarter.
[17:03.070 --> 17:03.890]  Picture of the king on there.
[17:03.890 --> 17:04.650]  Picture of the king.
[17:04.790 --> 17:05.190]  That's who that is.
[17:05.290 --> 17:05.410]  Okay.
[17:05.890 --> 17:07.670]  Pictures of the king everywhere in Thailand.
[17:07.890 --> 17:10.450]  Everywhere you go, especially Bangkok, there's huge pictures of the king.
[17:10.630 --> 17:10.950]  Everywhere.
[17:11.130 --> 17:12.090]  He's the king, you know?
[17:12.230 --> 17:14.070]  That's part of being a king is getting a picture up everywhere.
[17:14.130 --> 17:14.710]  Good to be the king.
[17:14.890 --> 17:15.050]  Yeah.
[17:16.270 --> 17:17.670]  So, okay, that's a 50-bott note.
[17:17.790 --> 17:26.530]  Now, some of us went out to a Thai place last week, and as part of the Chinese New Year celebration, which I couldn't quite figure out, they handed everybody money.
[17:27.030 --> 17:27.570]  What was it?
[17:27.630 --> 17:28.290]  A 20-bott note?
[17:28.410 --> 17:29.110]  It was a 20-bott note.
[17:29.250 --> 17:30.430]  It looks very similar to this.
[17:30.590 --> 17:31.330]  But smaller, right?
[17:31.390 --> 17:31.550]  Right.
[17:31.890 --> 17:32.050]  Yeah.
[17:32.750 --> 17:33.570]  Without the whole...
[17:33.570 --> 17:34.150]  And no whole.
[17:34.250 --> 17:36.270]  40-some cents worth of money.
[17:36.390 --> 17:39.210]  It was a nice gesture, you know, giving customers money.
[17:39.550 --> 17:41.670]  Now, there's a 10-bott coin there.
[17:41.710 --> 17:43.210]  Which I think you sent us, yes.
[17:43.310 --> 17:43.470]  Yes.
[17:43.870 --> 17:44.130]  Okay.
[17:44.850 --> 17:45.610]  Who has it?
[17:45.830 --> 17:46.310]  I do.
[17:46.430 --> 17:49.330]  It seems like normal money, or what we would consider normal money.
[17:49.330 --> 17:53.290]  And it has a picture of a watt or temple on the reverse of it.
[17:53.390 --> 18:00.950]  And there aren't a lot of currencies around the world that have pictures of religious institutions on their money.
[18:01.610 --> 18:05.430]  It's got the same kind of color scheme as a euro, or it's got silver on the outside.
[18:05.610 --> 18:09.830]  Well, which is, yeah, silver on the outside, gold on the inside, which is something that we don't have here, which I think would be really cool if we did.
[18:10.030 --> 18:14.170]  Instead of making all these dollar coins look like quarters, you know, a little imagination.
[18:15.310 --> 18:18.670]  Wow, well, that's definitely an interesting package there.
[18:18.830 --> 18:25.150]  So, I guess we'll learn something from the way they encode their metro cards, or whatever they're called.
[18:25.410 --> 18:27.330]  There should be an elephant pass in there as well.
[18:27.550 --> 18:29.170]  That's what I thought was the most interesting.
[18:29.450 --> 18:30.750]  What is that, a slow pass?
[18:31.610 --> 18:32.230]  It's an elephant pass.
[18:32.230 --> 18:32.850]  A pass for your elephant?
[18:33.630 --> 18:36.690]  It's a very thin piece of yellow paper that, I mean...
[18:36.690 --> 18:38.490]  It's not actually for an elephant, Bernie, is it?
[18:39.410 --> 18:40.470]  It's to get a...
[18:40.470 --> 18:45.710]  It's to ride from one part of the island of Ko Chang to another part on an elephant.
[18:45.790 --> 18:47.010]  Oh, my God.
[18:47.010 --> 18:47.550]  You're kidding.
[18:47.630 --> 18:49.070]  You need a ticket to ride an elephant.
[18:49.770 --> 18:52.090]  It's just like a subway pass or a subway token.
[18:52.270 --> 18:55.590]  You buy your passes, and you just hand it to a guy, and you get on the envelope.
[18:55.710 --> 18:57.270]  No, you get on the elephant.
[18:57.850 --> 18:58.730]  Let me see this thing.
[18:58.750 --> 19:00.290]  And he takes you to the other side of the island.
[19:00.450 --> 19:01.170]  Bernie, if I...
[19:01.170 --> 19:02.830]  There's a picture of an elephant on it and everything.
[19:02.990 --> 19:03.250]  Wow.
[19:04.330 --> 19:07.110]  If I bring my own elephant, do I still have to pay?
[19:08.490 --> 19:10.230]  I think they'd probably let you go for free.
[19:10.610 --> 19:12.290]  But Ko Chang...
[19:12.290 --> 19:13.970]  Good luck checking that on the airplane.
[19:15.270 --> 19:18.530]  Ko Chang in Thai means elephant island.
[19:18.790 --> 19:21.030]  Ko means island, and Chang means elephant.
[19:21.270 --> 19:22.870]  So it's the island of elephants.
[19:23.090 --> 19:24.490]  And there's a lot of elephants in Ko Chang.
[19:24.710 --> 19:28.210]  Is it like a bus where lots of people get on the elephant?
[19:28.230 --> 19:29.150]  Or is it just you?
[19:29.310 --> 19:29.950]  Is there a driver?
[19:30.070 --> 19:30.490]  How does it work?
[19:30.610 --> 19:32.370]  Only one person can ride an elephant at once, right?
[19:32.510 --> 19:35.590]  So they have a bunch of elephants in a stable, and there's a path through the jungle.
[19:35.810 --> 19:37.530]  It's a pretty rural place, actually.
[19:37.530 --> 19:38.570]  It's not a metropolitan.
[19:38.870 --> 19:41.810]  I didn't picture it being a metropolitan place with a bunch of elephants walking around.
[19:42.090 --> 19:44.230]  Although right in the city of Bangkok, I...
[19:44.230 --> 19:44.850]  Twice...
[19:44.850 --> 19:45.290]  Well, let's see.
[19:45.330 --> 19:48.970]  In Bangkok once, I was dining, and then right on the street, an elephant came walking down the street.
[19:49.270 --> 19:57.490]  And then I was down in southern Thailand in a place called Suratami, and I was just walking down the street, and there was an elephant going down the street.
[19:57.490 --> 20:00.170]  I assume these elephants are escorted by somebody.
[20:00.270 --> 20:01.310]  They're not just wandering on their own.
[20:01.790 --> 20:05.370]  They all have a... I think they call it a hut-hut.
[20:05.510 --> 20:07.970]  The guy who sits on top and...
[20:07.970 --> 20:08.330]  All right.
[20:09.010 --> 20:10.810]  Now, the guy... it also includes a guy.
[20:10.950 --> 20:17.310]  So when you present your elephant pass, you get on this sort of wooden seat that's on top of the elephant.
[20:17.570 --> 20:21.290]  And then the hut-hut tells the elephant where to go.
[20:21.430 --> 20:25.690]  And this particular hut-hut was singing to the elephant the whole time, which I thought was pretty interesting.
[20:25.810 --> 20:26.650]  He didn't hit him once.
[20:26.690 --> 20:27.650]  He just sang to the elephant.
[20:27.770 --> 20:30.230]  So it's just you and the hut-hut on the elephant?
[20:30.230 --> 20:30.370]  Yeah.
[20:30.730 --> 20:30.910]  Okay.
[20:31.630 --> 20:34.510]  He sang Britney Spears to punish the elephant, I would imagine.
[20:34.990 --> 20:35.630]  Only kidding.
[20:35.730 --> 20:36.130]  Only kidding.
[20:36.290 --> 20:36.410]  Yeah.
[20:37.130 --> 20:37.810]  Or am I?
[20:38.450 --> 20:38.890]  Okay, so...
[20:38.890 --> 20:39.590]  Back to technology.
[20:39.930 --> 20:40.590]  Yes, technology.
[20:40.970 --> 20:41.310]  Okay.
[20:41.550 --> 20:46.850]  Well, there's a phone card in here, which doesn't look particularly special to me, except that it's foreign.
[20:47.450 --> 20:51.450]  It looks like a Canadian phone card, actually, with a smart chip and...
[20:51.450 --> 20:52.010]  A smart card.
[20:52.050 --> 20:53.170]  Anything special about this?
[20:53.470 --> 20:58.170]  No, it was just a phone card I used while I was there, and I used it up, and I thought it was interesting to save.
[20:58.670 --> 21:02.410]  And then there's another hole-punched past it.
[21:02.410 --> 21:04.530]  I'm not sure what this is for, because I can't read it.
[21:05.210 --> 21:06.950]  It's a piece of paper with a hole in the middle of it.
[21:07.130 --> 21:08.130]  Well, it's...
[21:08.130 --> 21:10.290]  Well, that's from the Bangkok Railway.
[21:10.470 --> 21:19.970]  I took that from... I took the Bangkok Railway... not the Bangkok, the Thai Railway system, from southern Thailand all the way up to Bangkok, which was like a nine-hour train ride.
[21:20.390 --> 21:23.110]  And that was the slip of paper they gave me when I got on the train.
[21:23.290 --> 21:28.370]  It seems like the most high-tech thing here are the cards and the RFID chip.
[21:28.430 --> 21:30.690]  Everything else is very low-tech.
[21:31.330 --> 21:31.610]  Yep.
[21:31.850 --> 21:38.330]  It was an interesting contrast in that country of really low-tech stuff and amazingly high-tech stuff.
[21:38.450 --> 21:39.890]  And there didn't seem to be any in-between.
[21:40.690 --> 21:41.210]  All right.
[21:41.290 --> 21:55.690]  Well, listen, if listeners out there have similar packages to send us, guides to various transit systems or strange tickets, feel free to mail them to us here at the radio station, off the hook here at WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York.
[21:55.930 --> 21:58.010]  1-0-0-0-5.
[21:58.490 --> 21:58.970]  All right.
[21:59.250 --> 22:00.270]  And... Yes, Jim?
[22:00.270 --> 22:02.130]  I got a quick thing about RFID chips.
[22:02.550 --> 22:09.110]  Steve Wynn, the casino mogul, is going to be opening a new casino in Las Vegas later this year.
[22:09.370 --> 22:14.590]  And the buzz on the Internet is that the chips there will be RFID chips as well.
[22:14.830 --> 22:20.310]  So anybody who goes to the opening, mail us a chip or two, the cheap ones, of course, unless you're feeling generous.
[22:20.430 --> 22:22.330]  Not at all surprised they're integrating that technology there.
[22:22.470 --> 22:24.250]  I was going to say I'll take the expensive ones.
[22:26.890 --> 22:27.250]  Okay.
[22:27.250 --> 22:32.050]  I mentioned we went to this Thai place, and Redbird and I had quite an adventure afterwards.
[22:32.230 --> 22:33.130]  Do you want to tell the story?
[22:33.290 --> 22:34.830]  I already told the story on the other radio station.
[22:35.030 --> 22:35.510]  Oh, you did?
[22:35.610 --> 22:35.790]  Yeah.
[22:36.110 --> 22:37.270]  You can start the story.
[22:37.350 --> 22:37.790]  I'll start.
[22:37.850 --> 22:40.310]  You might be able to tell it better, but you were driving.
[22:40.650 --> 22:41.190]  I was driving.
[22:41.270 --> 22:41.450]  Okay.
[22:41.670 --> 22:42.470]  Okay, we were driving.
[22:42.470 --> 22:46.750]  We were driving innocently enough across 14th Street heading eastbound, right?
[22:46.750 --> 22:47.050]  Heading east, right.
[22:47.050 --> 22:47.270]  Okay.
[22:47.490 --> 22:48.130]  Take it from there.
[22:48.310 --> 22:49.510]  We're sitting at a red light.
[22:49.810 --> 22:50.450]  Everything's fine.
[22:50.590 --> 22:53.350]  And the sky just comes flying past through the red light.
[22:54.250 --> 22:56.150]  Across the street, they would be dead.
[22:56.270 --> 22:56.550]  In a car.
[22:56.750 --> 22:57.650]  He was flying in a car.
[22:57.730 --> 22:58.070]  Right, in a car, right.
[22:59.670 --> 23:00.810]  And what did he do?
[23:00.870 --> 23:05.830]  He fishtailed out of control or something and smashed his cab behind us.
[23:05.930 --> 23:10.670]  He managed to somehow hit the cab behind us with his rear because he was fishtailing.
[23:10.850 --> 23:12.410]  And he just hit him really hard.
[23:12.750 --> 23:16.150]  And you have no idea if somebody is killed or hurt or whatever.
[23:16.150 --> 23:17.130]  It was very loud.
[23:17.370 --> 23:17.650]  Very loud.
[23:17.670 --> 23:21.090]  So you immediately made a U-turn and see if we can help anybody.
[23:21.090 --> 23:24.330]  And the guy took off in this car that just couldn't drive.
[23:24.530 --> 23:27.010]  I mean, it was completely destroyed.
[23:27.190 --> 23:29.050]  The trunk was hanging off practically.
[23:29.630 --> 23:32.630]  The trunk was bobbing open and his bumper was dragging on the ground.
[23:32.670 --> 23:33.270]  Dragging on the ground.
[23:33.490 --> 23:35.870]  And tons of smoke coming out of the back.
[23:36.250 --> 23:38.750]  So you chased him, really.
[23:38.890 --> 23:40.610]  I was involved in a high-speed...
[23:40.610 --> 23:42.890]  Well, medium-speed chase across town.
[23:43.110 --> 23:43.330]  Right.
[23:43.490 --> 23:44.770]  Running through red lights and everything.
[23:44.910 --> 23:47.510]  Of course, he was running through red lights without slowing down.
[23:47.510 --> 23:50.750]  We at least were able to make sure nobody was coming before we ran the red light.
[23:50.950 --> 23:54.310]  But all we wanted was a cop to find this guy.
[23:54.430 --> 23:57.310]  And it's amazing how there are cops everywhere.
[23:57.370 --> 23:59.790]  We passed cops on 14th Street when we were chasing him.
[23:59.850 --> 24:01.090]  Yeah, but they were drinking beer on the steps.
[24:01.210 --> 24:04.090]  I mean one's in cars, one's on patrol, that kind of thing.
[24:04.430 --> 24:08.070]  And you see them everywhere, but honestly, we couldn't find them.
[24:08.250 --> 24:11.110]  So anyway, I called the cops, 911.
[24:12.130 --> 24:14.450]  From an AT&T wireless phone, right?
[24:14.610 --> 24:15.750]  Singular or AT&T.
[24:15.890 --> 24:16.030]  Okay.
[24:17.230 --> 24:19.050]  And okay, so they answer the phone.
[24:19.450 --> 24:21.450]  And I'm like, I want to report this accident.
[24:21.730 --> 24:25.110]  It was a very, very loud, dramatic accident.
[24:26.390 --> 24:29.890]  And so anyway, I tell the operator that we're chasing the guy.
[24:30.010 --> 24:31.010]  We're trying to get a license plate.
[24:31.270 --> 24:32.530]  And she stays on the phone with me.
[24:32.590 --> 24:33.970]  And I tell her where we are exactly.
[24:35.330 --> 24:37.550]  Every time we pass a block, I'm like, okay, we're here now.
[24:37.670 --> 24:37.930]  We're here now.
[24:37.950 --> 24:38.770]  And we had to go down.
[24:38.850 --> 24:39.710]  Side Street's this guy.
[24:39.810 --> 24:41.390]  I don't know if he knew that we were following him.
[24:41.650 --> 24:43.650]  But he wasn't going straight across 14th Street.
[24:43.650 --> 24:46.330]  He ducked down, went down the side street into the meatpacking district.
[24:46.530 --> 24:49.070]  And we were behind him pretty close most of the time.
[24:49.130 --> 24:50.090]  But sometimes we fell back.
[24:50.370 --> 24:51.930]  One time, there was a guy got in the way.
[24:51.990 --> 24:55.270]  And I had to actually pull over a car by flashing my lights and beeping my horn.
[24:55.310 --> 24:56.510]  And I actually got him to pull over.
[24:56.570 --> 24:57.150]  I was kind of surprised.
[24:57.390 --> 24:58.270]  And we zipped ahead.
[24:58.410 --> 25:01.490]  And we were finally able to get the plate that way by zipping ahead.
[25:01.490 --> 25:03.150]  So anyway, we caught up to him, got the plate.
[25:03.290 --> 25:04.770]  You know, I read it to her, you know, twice.
[25:04.870 --> 25:06.190]  The second time, she was actually kind of rude.
[25:06.250 --> 25:07.570]  She was like, I have this information already.
[25:07.590 --> 25:08.250]  I'm like, okay.
[25:08.990 --> 25:10.490]  So he continues down.
[25:10.630 --> 25:13.650]  And she basically, you know, she sounded completely disinterested.
[25:13.810 --> 25:15.450]  She's like, okay, you know, a cop is on the way, whatever.
[25:15.690 --> 25:16.910]  So anyway, I hand up the phone with her.
[25:16.990 --> 25:17.530]  And I called again.
[25:17.650 --> 25:18.710]  I got another operator.
[25:18.990 --> 25:21.030]  And I read the plate again to this operator.
[25:21.810 --> 25:25.090]  And this is actually kind of an important point that I read the plate so many times.
[25:25.990 --> 25:27.130]  So he, what is he?
[25:27.210 --> 25:29.530]  He pulls down 10th Avenue or something, pulls over.
[25:30.290 --> 25:34.170]  Him and two passengers get out of the car and rip the bumper off.
[25:34.470 --> 25:35.850]  It must have really been annoying them.
[25:35.890 --> 25:37.470]  And also, the car is belching smoke.
[25:37.710 --> 25:37.870]  Yes.
[25:37.870 --> 25:41.230]  So when we did lose it, it was easy to find again by just simply following the smell.
[25:41.410 --> 25:41.570]  Right.
[25:42.070 --> 25:44.750]  And all the people, pedestrians are looking, what's going on here?
[25:44.890 --> 25:46.870]  This person is making all this smoke and noise.
[25:47.050 --> 25:51.170]  And, you know, all we wanted to do was make sure the person was, you know, didn't leave the scene of an accident.
[25:51.390 --> 25:52.990]  We didn't know if somebody was killed or what.
[25:53.790 --> 25:55.550]  And we're trying to get the information to the cops.
[25:55.670 --> 25:58.910]  It was so frustrating now because we figure, you know, we're telling them where we are.
[25:59.650 --> 26:01.070]  And usually, they respond.
[26:01.310 --> 26:05.710]  Didn't you see on the way in today, like 40 or 50 cops going down the West Side Highway?
[26:05.890 --> 26:07.770]  There were a whole lot of cops going down the West Side Highway.
[26:08.050 --> 26:10.730]  Somebody had to tell them to show up to do something.
[26:10.970 --> 26:12.770]  And they, you know, how did that work?
[26:12.890 --> 26:15.210]  How did the cops show up for that event and not ours?
[26:15.370 --> 26:21.990]  Well, I think if I would have said, you know, I spotted some weapons of mass destruction in the backseat, they would have come...
[26:23.730 --> 26:28.870]  But anyway, it was very frustrating because we got all the way up to the Lincoln Tunnel, which is, I think, where we finally lost them.
[26:28.970 --> 26:34.210]  And, you know, I was on the phone with the operator the whole time and just no cops in sight at all.
[26:34.290 --> 26:37.490]  I mean, we were running red lights, so we should have gotten pulled over.
[26:37.590 --> 26:39.190]  But there were nothing anywhere.
[26:39.490 --> 26:41.490]  That would have been an interesting conversation if we got pulled over.
[26:42.010 --> 26:43.710]  But, yeah, you know, maybe that's the secret.
[26:43.870 --> 26:45.190]  I was theorizing on the other show.
[26:45.190 --> 26:47.750]  It's like, if you call in a crime, maybe they'll call the cops, flee.
[26:48.050 --> 26:49.750]  And that's when you can get away with things.
[26:49.930 --> 26:51.250]  Because, boy, we didn't see...
[26:51.250 --> 26:53.250]  And, you know, you always see cops everywhere.
[26:53.350 --> 26:54.910]  You didn't see a single one that whole time.
[26:54.930 --> 26:56.950]  And that whole thing must have lasted, like, 20, 25 minutes.
[26:57.170 --> 26:57.490]  Right, right.
[26:57.590 --> 26:59.510]  Finally, we made it all the way back to the accident scene.
[26:59.530 --> 27:00.270]  There was a cop there.
[27:00.550 --> 27:01.910]  And he didn't have the license plate.
[27:01.910 --> 27:08.470]  He didn't have the license plate number, which I thought was very bizarre because I was like, I told two different operators the license plate number, like, three times.
[27:08.490 --> 27:09.390]  Why don't you have it?
[27:09.430 --> 27:12.250]  And he was just like, you know, I guess the information isn't synced up yet.
[27:12.250 --> 27:18.250]  And he's writing the information we're giving him on a magazine, not on an official police report.
[27:18.250 --> 27:19.450]  He's writing it on a magazine.
[27:20.050 --> 27:23.310]  You know, you just have to wonder, are these things being taken seriously?
[27:23.410 --> 27:25.630]  Meanwhile, the cab driver is incredibly shaken up.
[27:25.930 --> 27:29.770]  You know, we're trying to comfort him, say, look, we got the guy's, you know, plate and all that.
[27:29.890 --> 27:31.010]  So everything should be okay.
[27:31.010 --> 27:33.650]  But, boy, you know, it's amazing.
[27:34.350 --> 27:38.770]  I guess, you know, we'll get all kinds of letters and calls from people saying, boy, you people are idiots.
[27:39.010 --> 27:39.710]  You shouldn't have done that.
[27:40.010 --> 27:42.170]  The operator seemed very surprised that we were following.
[27:42.630 --> 27:44.570]  I just, you know, it seemed like the thing to do at the time.
[27:44.770 --> 27:46.890]  But it was fun.
[27:46.970 --> 27:47.310]  It was fun.
[27:47.370 --> 27:50.130]  If anybody out there has further information on this, please let us know.
[27:50.210 --> 27:52.250]  We'd like to find out how it all turned out.
[27:52.330 --> 27:54.310]  But there's no way to really know how it turned out.
[27:54.510 --> 27:56.370]  Well, he said he'd call you if he went to trial, right?
[27:56.850 --> 27:58.570]  Yeah, I said I'd testify and all that.
[27:58.650 --> 27:59.930]  But I don't think they're going to call.
[28:00.850 --> 28:02.050]  They're calling for all kinds of other reasons.
[28:02.190 --> 28:03.950]  You know, when they arrested me, they would call all the time.
[28:04.030 --> 28:05.610]  Taking photos, for example, on the subway.
[28:05.810 --> 28:08.870]  And on that subject, I want to welcome Seraph back to the studio.
[28:09.070 --> 28:09.910]  Haven't seen you in a while.
[28:10.390 --> 28:10.670]  I haven't seen you in a while.
[28:12.250 --> 28:13.710]  A bit of trouble in the last couple of months.
[28:13.790 --> 28:14.550]  Tell us what happened to you.
[28:14.770 --> 28:17.810]  Yeah, I know what the police are really spending their time on.
[28:17.910 --> 28:20.170]  And it's fighting real crime like the kinds that I commit.
[28:20.450 --> 28:26.870]  Well, we've always known that you have a secret warehouse where you plan out your latest mischief.
[28:26.930 --> 28:27.570]  What is it this time?
[28:28.730 --> 28:31.550]  Well, I'm a photographer, for those who don't know.
[28:31.910 --> 28:36.190]  And I spend a lot of time wandering around the city looking for weird stuff.
[28:36.330 --> 28:43.370]  Looking for all the hidden architecture and the strange little places that are sort of like the earth, but in New York.
[28:44.230 --> 28:45.270]  And they're hard to find.
[28:46.890 --> 28:56.430]  And so one day, I'm wandering on 26th Street, and I notice that there's an area under construction way over on the east side near the FDR Drive.
[28:57.610 --> 29:04.230]  And so I go wandering over in that direction, and I'm looking for pictures to take, and I see that there's this sort of ramp that goes down.
[29:04.230 --> 29:06.670]  On 26th Street divides, and there's a ramp.
[29:07.510 --> 29:12.450]  And so I go down the ramp, and I go to the bottom of the ramp, and I sort of looked around, and it was pretty dark down there.
[29:13.010 --> 29:18.230]  I decided that there really wasn't enough light to take a photograph, and that it probably wasn't safe to be there either.
[29:18.230 --> 29:20.230]  If there was a car coming out, they might not even see me.
[29:21.070 --> 29:27.930]  And so I turned right back around, and came back up the ramp to go explore further.
[29:28.250 --> 29:31.330]  But I was stopped by a police officer.
[29:31.550 --> 29:31.930]  Okay.
[29:33.070 --> 29:34.670]  And he wanted to know what I was doing.
[29:35.550 --> 29:36.870]  Well, I'm taking photographs.
[29:36.870 --> 29:37.610]  I'm a photographer.
[29:38.790 --> 29:40.470]  Well, that didn't seem to be good enough for him.
[29:40.530 --> 29:42.070]  This was us for a class project, right?
[29:42.350 --> 29:44.230]  Yeah, I'm a full-time photography student.
[29:45.390 --> 29:49.650]  And so he leads me over to two hospital police, who were really just peace officers.
[29:50.510 --> 29:52.470]  And they were the ones who called him in the first place.
[29:53.150 --> 29:54.490]  And they wanted to know what I was doing.
[29:54.630 --> 29:56.050]  Well, I'm a photography student.
[29:56.050 --> 29:56.710]  I'm a photographer.
[29:57.250 --> 29:58.010]  Here's the camera.
[29:58.170 --> 29:59.050]  It belongs to the school.
[29:59.190 --> 29:59.930]  Let me just interrupt you for a second.
[30:00.150 --> 30:03.210]  How long were you actually down that ramp in that area for?
[30:03.210 --> 30:03.430]  Oh.
[30:03.570 --> 30:11.750]  Well, I was in the area, but on public property for, you know, the third time that week, and probably for upwards of an hour.
[30:12.030 --> 30:17.350]  But as far as being in what I later found out was the restricted area, maybe all of 10 seconds.
[30:17.870 --> 30:20.670]  And they were able to call a cop and have him respond, in that amount of time?
[30:20.990 --> 30:22.990]  Well, I think they'd been watching me for a long time.
[30:23.070 --> 30:23.270]  All right.
[30:23.450 --> 30:25.170]  Waiting for me to make my move, so to speak.
[30:25.350 --> 30:25.610]  Okay.
[30:25.790 --> 30:26.630]  So you made your move.
[30:26.750 --> 30:27.350]  I made my move.
[30:27.470 --> 30:28.690]  I stepped over the invisible line.
[30:28.790 --> 30:29.090]  Uh-huh.
[30:29.490 --> 30:35.050]  I looked around, came back, and there were the police waiting for me.
[30:35.870 --> 30:39.390]  And the cop brings me to the hospital police, and they all asked me what I'm doing.
[30:39.510 --> 30:41.050]  And so I gave them a really thorough explanation.
[30:41.050 --> 30:43.150]  I showed them that the camera belonged to the school.
[30:43.930 --> 30:48.450]  I showed them my school ID and my driver's license and all of that stuff.
[30:48.450 --> 30:52.350]  And I thought I was rather convincing because, well, you know, I was telling the truth.
[30:53.030 --> 30:54.450]  Well, what kind of questions were they asking?
[30:55.010 --> 30:56.370]  Well, they said, what were you taking a picture of?
[30:56.390 --> 31:01.090]  And I said, well, I was thinking about taking a picture of this concrete wall, but I think there's not enough light.
[31:02.350 --> 31:04.330]  And, well, what were you doing down there trespassing?
[31:04.710 --> 31:05.650]  I was trespassing?
[31:06.170 --> 31:07.810]  Well, yes, you were on hospital property.
[31:08.670 --> 31:09.910]  Well, how was I to know that?
[31:09.910 --> 31:10.790]  There were no signs.
[31:11.290 --> 31:12.130]  There was no guard.
[31:12.130 --> 31:16.030]  There was no gate that I opened or jumped over.
[31:17.650 --> 31:19.010]  I never saw a sign.
[31:19.670 --> 31:24.570]  Well, they said, because of all of the construction around here, all of the signs have been knocked down.
[31:26.390 --> 31:27.570]  Well, I see.
[31:27.830 --> 31:28.850]  Yes, knocked down.
[31:30.030 --> 31:34.930]  And so I gave them this long explanation of what was going on.
[31:34.990 --> 31:36.890]  They kept asking me the same questions over and over again.
[31:37.970 --> 31:39.190]  Like, who are you working for?
[31:39.890 --> 31:40.830]  Something like that.
[31:41.550 --> 31:43.910]  And, of course, explaining to me what their justification was.
[31:43.910 --> 31:50.790]  I mean, I think that all three of them were rational enough people that they understood that I was a student and they understood essentially what I was doing.
[31:51.730 --> 31:55.170]  I said, if you had problems like this before, and they said yes with the media all the time.
[31:56.450 --> 31:56.750]  Okay.
[31:58.250 --> 32:00.530]  But they nonetheless wanted me to talk to the captain.
[32:00.850 --> 32:06.190]  That was their responsibility, was to bring me back to the captain so that I could talk to the captain and tell him the same story.
[32:06.950 --> 32:10.030]  Well, the captain was that guy from Full Metal Jacket.
[32:10.030 --> 32:10.790]  Oh, boy.
[32:10.970 --> 32:11.150]  Yeah.
[32:12.290 --> 32:15.590]  And he didn't want to hear anything that I wanted to say.
[32:16.030 --> 32:20.510]  All he really wanted to do was to make life difficult for me.
[32:21.630 --> 32:32.730]  And so he started off by showing me the live image from the surveillance camera that had caught me in the first place and asking me if I realized that when I had stepped over the invisible line that I was stepping over an invisible line.
[32:33.750 --> 32:35.470]  Did he use the word invisible line?
[32:35.750 --> 32:36.110]  No.
[32:36.290 --> 32:36.570]  Okay.
[32:36.730 --> 32:36.890]  No.
[32:37.030 --> 32:38.610]  But, you know, he pointed and said, this point.
[32:38.830 --> 32:39.330]  Mm-hmm.
[32:40.090 --> 32:42.370]  I kind of scratched my head and I said, no.
[32:42.530 --> 32:44.770]  And he had a very hard time believing that.
[32:45.730 --> 32:46.870]  And then he sat me down.
[32:47.770 --> 32:50.030]  And he said, we're the New York Police Department.
[32:50.830 --> 32:51.870]  Do you know what that is?
[32:53.810 --> 32:55.330]  Well, I could venture a guess.
[32:55.610 --> 32:55.810]  Yeah.
[32:56.050 --> 32:58.010]  Is this in the hospital or is this in the precinct now?
[32:58.050 --> 33:03.470]  This is in the police department inside the hospital, which is...
[33:03.470 --> 33:05.510]  I don't know exactly what the story is.
[33:06.490 --> 33:17.070]  It's hospital police, but I guess they have a real police sergeant that's sort of like a liaison there to have full power of arrest and to be able to book people and all that stuff.
[33:20.070 --> 33:23.250]  But so he says, do you know what that is in the New York Police Department?
[33:23.470 --> 33:29.030]  And I had to say no, because I just didn't feel like guessing at that moment, I guess.
[33:29.950 --> 33:31.870]  And he said, we're a law enforcement agency.
[33:31.970 --> 33:33.830]  Wait, you said no when he asked what the NY...
[33:33.830 --> 33:34.690]  Well, I don't know if I said no.
[33:34.690 --> 33:36.790]  I think I just kind of scratched my head and looked at him quizzically.
[33:36.970 --> 33:37.250]  Uh-huh.
[33:38.190 --> 33:40.070]  He said, we're a law enforcement agency.
[33:40.930 --> 33:41.150]  Mm-hmm.
[33:41.270 --> 33:42.210]  One of the biggest in the city.
[33:42.370 --> 33:42.650]  Yes.
[33:44.690 --> 33:47.010]  And he said, you know, there's another law enforcement agency.
[33:47.010 --> 33:48.370]  That operates in New York City.
[33:48.610 --> 33:49.510]  Do you know what that is?
[33:50.230 --> 33:50.570]  Al-Qaeda?
[33:53.650 --> 33:55.070]  I would have had a lot of fun with this guy.
[33:55.170 --> 33:56.410]  But okay, what was the answer?
[33:56.490 --> 34:00.950]  Yeah, I was just so fascinated that I just, you know, I kept just gesturing for him to speak more.
[34:01.170 --> 34:01.950]  And I was trying to take...
[34:01.950 --> 34:02.550]  Do go on.
[34:02.770 --> 34:02.930]  Yeah.
[34:05.110 --> 34:05.470]  No.
[34:05.750 --> 34:06.970]  What is the other agency?
[34:07.270 --> 34:10.250]  Well, he said, it's the Department of Home Security.
[34:11.270 --> 34:12.690]  Did he say home security?
[34:12.850 --> 34:13.710]  Home security.
[34:13.950 --> 34:14.930]  He didn't even get that right?
[34:15.170 --> 34:15.410]  Right.
[34:15.710 --> 34:16.070]  Okay.
[34:16.070 --> 34:16.750]  All right.
[34:16.990 --> 34:21.390]  So I look at him and weighing my options, I say, homeland?
[34:22.650 --> 34:23.690]  And he says, that's right.
[34:24.910 --> 34:25.690]  That's what I said.
[34:26.170 --> 34:35.990]  And I'm going to call them now and you're going to be transferred to federal authorities because you're here being a terrorist.
[34:36.310 --> 34:37.650]  He said that one way or another.
[34:39.370 --> 34:40.710]  He used the word terrorist.
[34:41.730 --> 34:46.130]  He said that what I was doing was potentially a terrorist activity.
[34:46.690 --> 34:49.870]  Taking a picture or walking down a ramp by Bellevue.
[34:50.050 --> 34:52.790]  Now, this was in mid-November.
[34:52.970 --> 35:05.270]  So this was during the time when a lot of what was in the news was about what we were doing to hospitals in Fallujah, how we had taken them over, possibly with the express purpose of preventing information about casualties from getting out of Fallujah.
[35:06.170 --> 35:17.930]  And the imagined terrorist response to our wrongdoing over there or potential wrongdoing over there was that hospitals were the target of the week.
[35:18.850 --> 35:19.370]  Okay.
[35:19.370 --> 35:20.630]  So it wasn't Citigroup that week.
[35:20.630 --> 35:21.190]  It was hospitals.
[35:21.210 --> 35:21.450]  All right.
[35:21.470 --> 35:21.950]  It was hospitals.
[35:21.950 --> 35:25.370]  So I picked the wrong day to be near a hospital.
[35:26.530 --> 35:27.070]  Who knows?
[35:27.110 --> 35:29.350]  If I'd been injured on that day, I could have really been in trouble.
[35:29.990 --> 35:30.890]  Yes, I guess so.
[35:31.990 --> 35:32.450]  All right.
[35:32.510 --> 35:34.210]  So you're sitting there in the hospital.
[35:34.210 --> 35:35.370]  They're threatening to...
[35:35.370 --> 35:35.730]  They're in the hospital.
[35:35.730 --> 35:37.430]  And he says, have a seat.
[35:38.190 --> 35:39.450]  I'm calling Homeland Security.
[35:40.470 --> 35:42.390]  He spent a lot of time tinkering with that phone.
[35:42.790 --> 35:44.130]  I really don't know what he was doing.
[35:44.410 --> 35:45.670]  He never got through to anybody.
[35:47.090 --> 35:49.070]  And he seemed to eventually give up.
[35:49.610 --> 35:50.070]  Uh-huh.
[35:50.070 --> 35:52.090]  And then he sat me down and he gave me a little speech.
[35:53.590 --> 35:57.890]  He said, do you know that this nation is in a state of war?
[35:59.130 --> 35:59.610]  No.
[35:59.870 --> 36:00.050]  Really?
[36:01.050 --> 36:03.050]  A war against reason and logic.
[36:03.230 --> 36:04.290]  Yeah, something like that.
[36:04.770 --> 36:05.250]  Okay.
[36:05.530 --> 36:06.270]  I said, yes.
[36:06.790 --> 36:13.890]  He said, do you know that this entire nation is in a state of code yellow?
[36:16.130 --> 36:19.190]  And I said, well, you know, I didn't know that specifically.
[36:19.190 --> 36:21.090]  Which color we were at.
[36:21.250 --> 36:23.250]  But sure, I believe you.
[36:23.950 --> 36:26.150]  Do you know that New York City is in a state of code orange?
[36:27.030 --> 36:27.710]  Well, yes.
[36:28.870 --> 36:31.750]  Do you think that Homeland Security is a joke?
[36:32.790 --> 36:34.790]  Now, at this point, I really couldn't restrain myself.
[36:34.910 --> 36:36.810]  And I laughed pretty hard.
[36:37.710 --> 36:38.890]  That would be a yes, then.
[36:39.030 --> 36:39.230]  Yeah.
[36:40.130 --> 36:40.950]  And I said, yes.
[36:41.510 --> 36:42.070]  Yes, I do.
[36:42.470 --> 36:43.950]  No, you didn't actually say, yes, I do.
[36:44.950 --> 36:46.150]  Did you really say that to him?
[36:47.130 --> 36:48.430]  Do I think Homeland Security is a joke?
[36:48.470 --> 36:48.730]  Oh, no.
[36:48.790 --> 36:50.050]  I know you're telling me you think it's a joke.
[36:50.130 --> 36:52.050]  But did you actually say that to a New York City police officer?
[36:52.090 --> 36:53.290]  You think Homeland Security is a joke?
[36:53.450 --> 36:54.290]  Well, I laughed.
[36:54.290 --> 36:55.990]  I laughed, and I said...
[36:55.990 --> 36:58.210]  And I was trying to agree with his sentiment.
[36:58.310 --> 36:59.450]  And so what I said was, yeah.
[37:01.050 --> 37:02.450]  Oh, he must have loved that.
[37:02.710 --> 37:05.810]  And I don't even know if he caught it, because I didn't get any kind of rise from him or anything.
[37:06.010 --> 37:06.250]  Okay.
[37:07.110 --> 37:07.510]  But...
[37:07.930 --> 37:09.250]  So what happened next?
[37:09.810 --> 37:21.370]  And so he, after being unable to reach Homeland Security, decided that he was just going to give me the standard brand of NYPD justice and have them book me for trespassing.
[37:21.570 --> 37:41.430]  But not before he took the film from my camera with the intent, the stated intent, of getting it processed so that he could send the processed film to the Department of Homeland Security for analysis because what I was taking a picture of was clearly something of great consequence here.
[37:42.710 --> 37:43.230]  Unbelievable.
[37:43.610 --> 37:43.910]  Mm-hmm.
[37:44.050 --> 37:46.970]  And so this resulted in you having to go to court.
[37:47.210 --> 37:47.590]  Right.
[37:47.590 --> 37:51.190]  So I went to court about a month ago for the first time.
[37:51.870 --> 37:58.330]  And it's the kind of day in court where most of the people there are there for really minor stuff.
[37:58.490 --> 38:11.570]  They've exposed themselves making love in the park or they've sold a cigarette without a tax stamp or there was this really fascinating old blind fishmonger who was there who had...
[38:11.570 --> 38:12.290]  We have fishmongers?
[38:12.350 --> 38:12.930]  I didn't know that.
[38:13.110 --> 38:13.350]  Yeah.
[38:13.450 --> 38:13.890]  Oh, wow.
[38:14.010 --> 38:15.250]  Yeah, New York fishmongers.
[38:15.390 --> 38:15.610]  Okay.
[38:15.610 --> 38:17.870]  And there was something wrong with his loading dock.
[38:19.370 --> 38:22.170]  It's probably, you know, as old as...
[38:22.170 --> 38:24.590]  You know, you probably built it when he was a teenager or something.
[38:25.370 --> 38:26.690]  And it just wasn't up to spec.
[38:26.750 --> 38:28.990]  And one after another, these people are dismissed.
[38:29.270 --> 38:29.870]  And then there's you.
[38:30.670 --> 38:36.830]  With, you know, a clever reprimand from, you know, an 80-something-year-old nice Jewish judge.
[38:37.910 --> 38:39.290]  Okay, now there's you, the terrorist.
[38:39.290 --> 38:45.470]  And now there's me and I come up there and immediately the court attorney jumps up next to me and tells me not to say a word.
[38:46.110 --> 38:47.990]  He says, anything that you have to say, you say to me.
[38:49.210 --> 38:57.830]  And the judge takes a look at the police report, reads the charges, passes the police report over to the court attorney.
[38:57.830 --> 39:00.750]  And the attorney reads it to me.
[39:00.910 --> 39:08.990]  And it says, to paraphrase, essentially, that I entered an area of the hospital requiring identification.
[39:09.730 --> 39:10.730]  A ramp.
[39:11.650 --> 39:12.670]  Okay, fine.
[39:12.990 --> 39:14.690]  And the open mouth to a garage.
[39:15.290 --> 39:15.950]  Uh-huh.
[39:16.430 --> 39:17.390]  A sidewalk.
[39:17.910 --> 39:20.190]  This is an area requiring identification.
[39:20.410 --> 39:21.550]  That's an interesting statement.
[39:21.810 --> 39:24.790]  It doesn't mean that there was a guard there asking for ID.
[39:25.070 --> 39:25.230]  Right.
[39:25.230 --> 39:26.710]  It's more of an abstract concept.
[39:27.070 --> 39:29.250]  You know, this area requires identification.
[39:29.710 --> 39:32.350]  For the sake of our listeners, this is 26th Street?
[39:32.570 --> 39:34.950]  This is 26th Street east of 1st Avenue.
[39:34.990 --> 39:40.610]  If you walk east from the corner of 26th Street and 1st Avenue, there's a construction zone and 26th Street splits.
[39:40.990 --> 39:47.070]  And at some point along there, and I'm not even still sure exactly where it is, it becomes private property.
[39:47.230 --> 39:51.390]  And as of just this last weekend, there are still no signs.
[39:51.650 --> 39:52.530]  There's still no guard.
[39:52.630 --> 39:53.350]  There's still no gate.
[39:53.350 --> 39:55.990]  There's nothing to indicate that it's anything but a public place.
[39:56.070 --> 39:56.570]  This is fascinating.
[39:56.690 --> 39:57.790]  I want to have a look at this area.
[39:57.990 --> 39:59.630]  I'm sure a lot of our listeners want to have a look at it too.
[39:59.750 --> 40:00.850]  Maybe take some pictures too.
[40:00.890 --> 40:02.970]  Maybe we can arrange to have a whole bunch of people come by.
[40:03.150 --> 40:04.270]  Yeah, this is unbelievable.
[40:04.750 --> 40:07.590]  So anyway, I want to take some phone calls, but tell us what happened today.
[40:07.690 --> 40:08.850]  Today was your second appearance.
[40:09.050 --> 40:11.630]  Today was the final hearing, and it was a little bit like being in Las Vegas.
[40:12.890 --> 40:13.670]  I got there.
[40:13.850 --> 40:21.930]  They read the charges against me again, and the judge was just extremely aggressive and wanted me to plead guilty to disorderly conduct.
[40:22.230 --> 40:23.090]  Disorderly conduct?
[40:23.270 --> 40:23.450]  Right.
[40:24.470 --> 40:26.010]  To plea bargain down.
[40:27.050 --> 40:27.650]  Yes, Mike.
[40:27.770 --> 40:35.590]  Disorderly conduct, for folks who don't know, is basically what you get charged with when you haven't really done anything wrong, but they feel the need to charge you with something.
[40:35.770 --> 40:40.310]  It's an incredibly vague statute, and it basically means like making the police unhappy.
[40:40.510 --> 40:42.090]  That's kind of what I did.
[40:42.190 --> 40:45.490]  Yeah, it's what people do all the time, and sometimes they get charged with it.
[40:45.490 --> 40:46.350]  What did I do?
[40:46.470 --> 40:47.050]  Well, you were there.
[40:47.370 --> 40:47.730]  Okay.
[40:48.110 --> 40:48.750]  Disorderly conduct.
[40:49.010 --> 40:49.130]  Okay.
[40:49.370 --> 40:56.230]  So he would not listen to reason, wouldn't look at the photographs that I had brought, wouldn't read the letters from the people at my school, nothing at all.
[40:56.410 --> 40:56.510]  Really?
[40:57.050 --> 40:58.910]  He said, you didn't have permission to be there.
[40:58.990 --> 41:00.230]  You were somewhere that you shouldn't have been.
[41:01.790 --> 41:12.470]  And the deal that I'm offering you is for you to plea bargain down to disorderly conduct, and you'll be let go with a couple hundred dollar fine, and of course the unwritten fine print is, and you'll be a convicted criminal.
[41:12.670 --> 41:13.090]  Uh-huh.
[41:13.550 --> 41:30.890]  And so I scratched my head about this for a minute, and I thought, well, you know, it's either that, or I take my chances and possibly am found innocent, or possibly face the maximum charges for the trespassing statute that I allegedly violated, which involves a fine that's greater than the sum of my bank account,
[41:31.590 --> 41:32.690]  and prison time.
[41:33.830 --> 41:42.890]  Well, let's, before you tell us what you actually did, let's just have our panel weigh in on what we think you should have done, because I honestly don't know what happened.
[41:42.990 --> 41:43.750]  I don't think anybody here does.
[41:43.850 --> 41:45.370]  Bernie, any insight from you?
[41:46.530 --> 41:55.230]  Well, if I were out on bail or a free man while this trial was pending, I would take it to trial.
[41:55.230 --> 42:05.310]  But if I were locked up behind bars for months, as I was, I would seriously consider whether I wanted just to end this charade and just get it over with as soon as possible.
[42:05.570 --> 42:11.070]  But since you're a free person, Seraph, I would just recommend you take this all the way.
[42:12.130 --> 42:13.050]  Jim, what do you think?
[42:13.510 --> 42:22.210]  Well, you know, as a convicted felon on probation, I would be very trepidatious about being there to start with.
[42:22.210 --> 42:33.850]  But if I was there, I'd be so damn angry at being locked up on a probation violation awaiting this court hearing that I would do my best to fight it and probably end up losing and serving time.
[42:34.530 --> 42:35.910]  But at least I'd live with myself.
[42:36.090 --> 42:36.610]  How about you, Mike?
[42:37.810 --> 42:38.730]  I don't know what I'd do.
[42:38.810 --> 42:40.450]  It's too easy to say when you're not there.
[42:40.830 --> 42:41.490]  That's a good point.
[42:41.650 --> 42:42.170]  That is a good point.
[42:42.210 --> 42:44.370]  You really don't know until you've been through this what it's like.
[42:44.490 --> 42:49.410]  I mean, I can say, like, that I would advise people to fight it, but, like, what I would actually do, I don't know.
[42:49.550 --> 42:55.750]  Now, Redhack, I could easily see you getting into trouble like this, so what would you do if you found yourself in this kind of a situation?
[42:55.990 --> 42:56.550]  I don't know.
[42:56.770 --> 42:57.250]  I have no idea.
[42:57.450 --> 43:00.550]  I haven't been faced with it yet and I don't know if I want to be.
[43:01.130 --> 43:04.430]  Does that mean we're not going to see you taking pictures on city streets anytime soon?
[43:04.930 --> 43:05.490]  We'll see.
[43:06.430 --> 43:06.670]  All right.
[43:06.850 --> 43:07.530]  Redbird, how about you?
[43:08.050 --> 43:10.690]  I tend to agree with exactly what Bernie said.
[43:10.870 --> 43:23.190]  I mean, but also with what Mike said because I'm not in this situation, but if I was, I would, and I was in jail, I would want to get it over with, but if I wasn't, I would probably want to fight it because I wouldn't have, I wouldn't want to have a record that says I was,
[43:23.270 --> 43:25.550]  you know, doing anything wrong because I wasn't.
[43:26.170 --> 43:26.630]  All right.
[43:26.710 --> 43:28.430]  We're going to find out from Serif what he did.
[43:28.530 --> 43:29.230]  Let me give the phone number.
[43:29.370 --> 43:31.830]  63, I'm sorry, I got the wrong area code here.
[43:32.010 --> 43:36.070]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[43:36.170 --> 43:37.470]  212-209-2900.
[43:37.590 --> 43:48.330]  We'll be able to take some phone calls with your feedback on the various things we've been talking about today, whether it's corporate mergers or getting in trouble for taking pictures on city streets.
[43:48.570 --> 43:49.730]  So, Serif, what happened today?
[43:50.070 --> 44:00.810]  Well, this police officer who had just stated without being under oath that the area really was closed to the public is then sworn in as the little trial begins.
[44:00.810 --> 44:02.110]  They call it a bench trial.
[44:03.390 --> 44:08.450]  And the judge asks him, first thing, he says, what did you see the defendant do?
[44:09.470 --> 44:14.330]  And the cop starts some kind of little narrative and the judge interrupts him and says, what did you see him do?
[44:14.510 --> 44:20.270]  And after asking him a few more times and the cop thinking about his oath, he says, well, I wasn't there.
[44:20.450 --> 44:21.470]  I didn't see him do anything.
[44:21.730 --> 44:22.970]  The cop didn't lie.
[44:24.010 --> 44:24.790]  Very nice.
[44:25.070 --> 44:28.610]  And so dismissed right then and there and for the strangest sort of reason.
[44:29.010 --> 44:39.790]  If I had done some really heinous crime and been caught on video, but the cop hadn't actually been there, they wouldn't dismiss that.
[44:40.190 --> 44:42.610]  So in a way, they never even really addressed what happened.
[44:43.590 --> 44:44.490]  Which was nothing.
[44:44.770 --> 44:45.350]  Which was nothing.
[44:45.570 --> 44:50.510]  And, you know, I got my personal justice in that the case was just completely dismissed.
[44:50.890 --> 44:57.010]  But there's no justice in the larger sense in that they totally skirted the issue.
[44:59.970 --> 45:00.490]  Interesting.
[45:00.810 --> 45:03.610]  Now, why didn't they bring the cops who did see you on video?
[45:03.870 --> 45:05.430]  Why didn't they put them on the stand?
[45:06.310 --> 45:07.570]  The hospital cops.
[45:07.670 --> 45:08.290]  The hospital police.
[45:08.450 --> 45:09.850]  I don't know why they weren't there.
[45:10.130 --> 45:12.470]  I suppose that they could have been and that they could have shown the video.
[45:13.030 --> 45:16.890]  But the fact is that the definition of trespassing is...
[45:17.710 --> 45:18.910]  it involves knowledge.
[45:19.110 --> 45:21.490]  You have to know that you're going somewhere that you shouldn't be.
[45:21.810 --> 45:24.250]  Did the judge actually say anything when he dismissed it?
[45:24.310 --> 45:25.290]  Any kind of comment whatsoever?
[45:25.930 --> 45:26.330]  No.
[45:26.550 --> 45:28.970]  He struck his wasting my time with this nonsense?
[45:29.150 --> 45:29.590]  Nothing like that?
[45:29.750 --> 45:29.870]  No.
[45:30.390 --> 45:30.970]  Not at all.
[45:31.210 --> 45:32.570]  It was almost...
[45:32.570 --> 45:42.070]  The whole thing almost just felt like a ploy to try to get some money out of me, a few hundred bucks in fines, and to manipulate the conviction statistics to show another conviction.
[45:42.250 --> 45:46.230]  And if you ever got in trouble with something like this again, boy, you'd be a repeat offender.
[45:46.510 --> 45:46.650]  Yeah.
[45:46.970 --> 45:47.750]  And a real threat.
[45:48.050 --> 45:50.410]  Well, thank God you had enough courage to stand by your convictions.
[45:50.610 --> 45:50.730]  Yeah.
[45:50.990 --> 45:52.790]  And as soon as I put up a fight, it was all over.
[45:53.650 --> 45:54.590]  What did your lawyer say?
[45:54.850 --> 45:56.110]  You had a court appointed lawyer, right?
[45:56.230 --> 45:56.710]  Yeah, that's correct.
[45:56.770 --> 45:59.430]  Was he advising you to go with the plea bargain?
[45:59.730 --> 46:01.590]  He said, I can't give you advice either way.
[46:01.650 --> 46:02.090]  It's up to you.
[46:03.030 --> 46:05.930]  Isn't that what lawyers are supposed to do, give you advice on legal matters?
[46:06.250 --> 46:07.030]  Not when they're free.
[46:08.370 --> 46:09.410]  Bernie, what do you think about all this?
[46:11.390 --> 46:14.850]  What's Raph just brought up is you have to sort of know that you're doing something wrong.
[46:15.090 --> 46:18.890]  That's a legal concept known as men's rea in the N-S-R-E-A.
[46:19.010 --> 46:23.590]  It's a Latin term that means knowing that you're doing something with ill intent.
[46:24.610 --> 46:30.270]  And the fact is in this case, they had no eyewitness present to present eyewitness testimony.
[46:30.630 --> 46:37.310]  So they really didn't have a case unless they brought in someone who witnessed you either live or on video doing that.
[46:37.450 --> 46:42.890]  So I think they took the graceful way out and tried to save face the way they did.
[46:43.130 --> 46:45.570]  It still doesn't seem like the right reason to dismiss.
[46:45.770 --> 46:52.890]  I mean, you know, even if somebody had seen him on videotape taking pictures, there's nothing wrong with that, you know, and that needs to be said at some point.
[46:52.890 --> 46:53.610]  Absolutely.
[46:53.870 --> 46:59.670]  But since there was no one there who had seen it, no one there who had seen it or witnessed it, that wasn't introduced.
[46:59.890 --> 47:00.970]  But it's too bad.
[47:01.230 --> 47:05.090]  And like in your case, Emmanuel, I think that's all resolved, isn't it?
[47:05.550 --> 47:05.830]  Yeah.
[47:06.050 --> 47:07.710]  Well, the city actually dropped...
[47:07.710 --> 47:08.850]  They declined to prosecute.
[47:08.850 --> 47:12.310]  I was one of four people, apparently, that they declined to prosecute.
[47:12.590 --> 47:14.210]  I guess because of all the commotion.
[47:14.470 --> 47:14.810]  It's very dissatisfying.
[47:14.810 --> 47:15.750]  No, it is.
[47:16.670 --> 47:18.230]  A lot of cases go that way.
[47:18.950 --> 47:23.190]  Shapeshifter, our layout artist for 2600, his case was dismissed too.
[47:23.310 --> 47:29.390]  But, you know, you really want your day in court to have all the evidence heard and have it get out aired in the public.
[47:29.590 --> 47:31.330]  But rarely does it actually work.
[47:31.410 --> 47:37.150]  Well, actually, in the case of Shapeshifter, he did get his day in court suing the city and being victorious just about everything he did.
[47:37.250 --> 47:44.290]  I had my day in court by being a witness for somebody else and actually helping that person to have the charges dropped against them.
[47:44.810 --> 47:48.290]  Yeah, you know, also just having the forum to speak out is a very important thing.
[47:48.630 --> 47:49.030]  Yes.
[47:49.290 --> 47:49.590]  All right.
[47:49.870 --> 47:50.910]  Let's take some phone calls.
[47:51.810 --> 47:53.670]  212-209-2900.
[47:53.710 --> 47:55.550]  You're listening to Off the Hook here on WBAI.
[47:56.850 --> 47:57.610]  And good evening.
[47:57.730 --> 47:58.170]  You're on the air.
[47:58.610 --> 47:59.010]  Hi.
[47:59.270 --> 47:59.570]  How are you doing?
[47:59.890 --> 48:02.130]  Thank you for the great show and good work.
[48:02.330 --> 48:02.630]  Thank you.
[48:02.750 --> 48:03.870]  I am a listener supporter.
[48:04.030 --> 48:05.570]  I didn't subscribe during your show.
[48:05.690 --> 48:15.530]  But just a general comment and general thesis about any altercation with the New York City police, especially as they refer to Homeland Security.
[48:17.430 --> 48:23.810]  Anytime you're given a bench warrant or summons to court, if you can afford it, you should go with an attorney.
[48:24.230 --> 48:28.010]  Regardless of whether or not they say, oh, just show up and appear for a bench ticket.
[48:28.150 --> 48:35.330]  Even housing courts, you should, if at all possible, have an attorney to defend and also advocate for your rights.
[48:35.490 --> 48:38.350]  If it's not an attorney, then you should have a legal advisor.
[48:38.350 --> 48:41.330]  You can also call the Center for Constitutional Rights.
[48:41.630 --> 48:44.530]  Any place that will give you the advantage.
[48:44.530 --> 48:49.830]  Because, as you said, you were surprised that the police officer said he didn't, I didn't see him do anything.
[48:50.310 --> 49:03.930]  Actually, the videotape was admissible and the videotape could have been used as evidentiary statement or fact that the young man had been in an area where he was stopped.
[49:03.930 --> 49:09.050]  So, it's real important and I hope everyone understands that that courts are adversarial.
[49:09.490 --> 49:14.610]  And if you don't have an adversary or an advocate with you, then you would sometimes are at disadvantage.
[49:14.910 --> 49:15.530]  So, good luck.
[49:15.750 --> 49:19.470]  Keep giving up photographs and it's quite interesting and keep up the good work.
[49:19.730 --> 49:20.130]  Thanks.
[49:20.210 --> 49:20.710]  Thanks for your call.
[49:20.870 --> 49:21.030]  Bye.
[49:22.490 --> 49:24.210]  And, good evening.
[49:24.370 --> 49:24.770]  You're on the air.
[49:25.550 --> 49:25.830]  Yes.
[49:26.290 --> 49:30.950]  Well, I think you should sue the police in all these cases for violating your rights.
[49:31.910 --> 49:33.470]  Any thoughts on doing that, Sheriff?
[49:34.010 --> 49:37.710]  Well, I think that unfortunately I ran out of time to do it.
[49:37.990 --> 49:40.570]  I only had 90 days to serve them notice and I didn't.
[49:42.210 --> 49:51.110]  And after talking to a bunch of lawyers, they thought that the burden of proof was too high for it to be worthwhile to put in all the time and effort and money to do it.
[49:51.710 --> 49:53.550]  Though the thought certainly had crossed my mind.
[49:54.130 --> 50:05.410]  Well, I think it's equally important to just let people know what happened and hopefully prevent this from happening again so that people who are confronted with this kind of thing know their rights, know what's correct and what isn't.
[50:06.150 --> 50:07.450]  You know, educate in that way.
[50:07.610 --> 50:08.330]  Any other comments, caller?
[50:08.990 --> 50:16.550]  Well, just that the 14th Amendment guarantees everybody equal protection under the law.
[50:16.650 --> 50:22.850]  That means if you can't afford a lawyer, you still have the right to as much legal representation as anyone else.
[50:24.970 --> 50:29.470]  legal aid is supposed to provide competent representation.
[50:29.670 --> 50:30.770]  In many cases, they do.
[50:30.990 --> 50:33.070]  It's one thing I learned by going through my ordeal.
[50:33.950 --> 50:48.710]  Even if you're not a defendant, even if you want to sue the police or anything like that, according to the 14th Amendment, you have the same rights as someone who could afford a high-powered lawyer.
[50:50.370 --> 50:51.330]  Yeah, no, absolutely.
[50:51.650 --> 50:52.570]  I totally agree.
[50:52.690 --> 50:54.670]  It's just very hard to actually put that into practice sometimes.
[50:54.810 --> 50:58.990]  For instance, when you were arrested, is that proper to say that you were arrested?
[50:59.510 --> 51:01.190]  You know, I'm still not entirely clear on that.
[51:01.290 --> 51:09.130]  Okay, well, when you were given whatever it was you were given, announcing that you're going to sue the police at that point might affect your case.
[51:09.290 --> 51:10.590]  That's something that certainly goes through your head.
[51:10.690 --> 51:14.850]  Maybe you want to wait until it's all resolved before you actually do that.
[51:14.930 --> 51:18.030]  In fact, there might even be a way for you to do that at this point.
[51:18.030 --> 51:19.450]  I need to ask a couple of people.
[51:19.650 --> 51:21.830]  That was something that I had sort of dismissed as a possibility.
[51:21.830 --> 51:27.830]  I always thought of the criminal and civil sides of a situation like this being totally separate.
[51:28.030 --> 51:37.770]  But I heard from one experienced lawyer after another that filing a civil suit really could upset the situation on the criminal side of things, which I found sort of disturbing.
[51:38.210 --> 51:40.490]  Oh, and by the way, I used to be a volunteer at Bellevue.
[51:40.630 --> 51:45.590]  I had my own ID card allowing me to go to different places in the hospital.
[51:45.830 --> 51:46.170]  Uh-huh.
[51:46.290 --> 51:47.630]  Was the ramp one of them?
[51:49.630 --> 51:53.050]  Are you familiar with this ramp that has the point of contention here?
[51:53.770 --> 51:58.530]  Well, the hospital may not be split up the same way it used to be.
[51:58.670 --> 51:58.930]  Uh-huh.
[51:59.730 --> 52:01.810]  I mean, I used to sometimes go in and back entrance.
[52:02.030 --> 52:04.630]  I'm not sure that may not be the place you're talking about.
[52:04.630 --> 52:07.110]  The whole area is being constantly retooled, it seems.
[52:07.470 --> 52:07.590]  Yeah.
[52:07.770 --> 52:12.290]  Right, but anyway, the Bellevue hospital, isn't that owned by the city?
[52:13.550 --> 52:15.070]  Yeah, well, you know, that was another issue.
[52:15.230 --> 52:22.310]  As I said to one of the hospital police when they first picked me up, I said, well, isn't this a city hospital and public in some sense?
[52:22.310 --> 52:26.730]  I mean, I can walk into this hospital if I have a broken leg and you're not going to arrest me for trespassing.
[52:27.510 --> 52:29.470]  But it was the wrong part of the hospital?
[52:30.670 --> 52:31.470]  I suppose.
[52:32.110 --> 52:35.210]  Though I think that people must park there all the time for legitimate reasons.
[52:35.630 --> 52:43.430]  But anyway, what the female hospital police officer said to me was, well, all hospitals are private property.
[52:43.770 --> 52:48.530]  Oh, it's good to know these little facts, you know, like the Department of Home Security and all hospitals are private property.
[52:48.590 --> 52:49.070]  Okay, great.
[52:49.210 --> 52:50.490]  We're learning so much from these people.
[52:50.630 --> 52:52.870]  I say you own the hospital as much as anyone else.
[52:52.950 --> 52:53.110]  Yeah.
[52:53.450 --> 52:58.490]  And also, you have a First Amendment right to freedom of the press to take pictures.
[52:58.810 --> 52:59.430]  Of course.
[52:59.650 --> 52:59.850]  Of course.
[52:59.950 --> 53:04.470]  I mean, these are things that we seem to be giving away, you know, in all this time of war nonsense.
[53:04.790 --> 53:12.450]  And I have a Fourth Amendment right to not have my film taken from me for an alleged offense that does not relate to photography in any way.
[53:12.730 --> 53:14.870]  For all these reasons I say you should sue.
[53:15.210 --> 53:22.650]  But, you know, I see rights being violated all the time and a lot of people just are complacent and I get angry.
[53:22.710 --> 53:23.430]  I get really angry.
[53:23.650 --> 53:23.890]  Yeah.
[53:24.050 --> 53:28.070]  Well, I understand how it works out that way where you're scared you don't know what's going to happen next.
[53:28.690 --> 53:29.710]  Anyway, thanks so much for your call.
[53:29.810 --> 53:30.710]  We're going to try to fit in another one.
[53:30.790 --> 53:31.490]  Bernie, you had something to say?
[53:31.870 --> 53:37.130]  I just wanted to ask Saref, in the interest of full disclosure for the audience, what was the name of the captain?
[53:38.890 --> 53:39.170]  Oh.
[53:40.110 --> 53:43.230]  The full metal jacket guy who gave you all this nonsense.
[53:43.850 --> 53:44.670]  His name escapes me.
[53:44.790 --> 53:47.010]  I have all my court files here with me somewhere.
[53:47.110 --> 53:47.870]  I suppose I could dig it up.
[53:48.310 --> 53:51.870]  Well, if there's interest, we can certainly give all the information out.
[53:51.870 --> 54:03.270]  And if anybody has advice or would like to help out in some way, they can always send us email OTH at 2600.com because we certainly do need to know more about this kind of a case.
[54:03.310 --> 54:04.890]  Let's see if we can fit in one more phone call.
[54:05.110 --> 54:05.490]  Good evening.
[54:05.610 --> 54:05.950]  You're on the air.
[54:07.410 --> 54:07.990]  Hello, guys.
[54:08.050 --> 54:08.490]  How are you doing?
[54:08.610 --> 54:08.990]  How are you doing?
[54:09.390 --> 54:09.950]  Welcome back.
[54:10.090 --> 54:19.430]  Listen, I remember before the fundraising drive, somebody said that text messaging was okay and running during that tsunami.
[54:19.810 --> 54:20.310]  Uh-huh.
[54:20.950 --> 54:21.190]  Okay.
[54:21.370 --> 54:23.590]  I remember on 9-11 I was in Brooklyn.
[54:23.930 --> 54:30.250]  I tried calling everybody home long distance and overseas didn't work except text messaging.
[54:30.450 --> 54:34.430]  I was able to text message my sister in Cairo.
[54:35.230 --> 54:38.810]  Yeah, text messaging does definitely get through sometimes and other things don't.
[54:39.370 --> 54:39.650]  Uh-huh.
[54:39.990 --> 54:46.370]  So I just wanted to mention that maybe, you know, this could be a very good, you know, way of communication in disaster or something like that.
[54:46.370 --> 54:47.010]  Yes, definitely.
[54:47.010 --> 54:56.370]  And for those people who think that sending massive text messages in the case of something like a tsunami would overwhelm the system, there's another type of message that can be sent.
[54:56.670 --> 55:10.010]  It's called, I think, a cell info message or something that's like a massive network announcement that can be made to everybody on the system at once and it doesn't take up nearly as much bandwidth or process or time or whatever.
[55:10.470 --> 55:12.430]  All right, see if we can squeeze in one last quick one here.
[55:12.490 --> 55:12.770]  Good evening.
[55:13.130 --> 55:14.010]  Nope, not you.
[55:14.250 --> 55:15.990]  Let's try over here.
[55:16.330 --> 55:16.850]  And good evening.
[55:16.850 --> 55:17.170]  You're on.
[55:18.310 --> 55:18.710]  Hello?
[55:18.910 --> 55:19.130]  Yes.
[55:19.970 --> 55:20.370]  Hi.
[55:20.450 --> 55:25.390]  I just wanted to get a little more information on what you guys were saying about the merger with Nextel and Sprint.
[55:26.670 --> 55:30.950]  I know you mentioned it in the beginning, but I didn't get to hear the whole thing.
[55:30.950 --> 55:32.070]  What's your specific question?
[55:32.190 --> 55:33.190]  And we have to make this very quick.
[55:33.930 --> 55:35.650]  Just what do you think about the merger?
[55:35.830 --> 55:39.970]  What do you think the services of Nextel is going to change to benefit us?
[55:40.930 --> 55:42.230]  Basically, Bernie, what is it?
[55:42.330 --> 55:44.590]  We don't like all these companies merging.
[55:45.050 --> 55:46.010]  It's bad for the consumer.
[55:46.430 --> 55:47.590]  There's going to be less choices.
[55:47.690 --> 55:56.550]  Whenever there's less choices to the consumer, then the rate, you're less likely to get good service and there's going to be less people to talk to from a customer service standpoint.
[55:56.550 --> 55:58.350]  There's less incentive for them to lower their rates.
[55:58.350 --> 56:05.750]  You're going to have to get a new phone soon because Scrim PCS is making the technology that Nextel used go away.
[56:05.750 --> 56:06.930]  They don't want it anymore.
[56:06.930 --> 56:08.090]  They want to use their technology.
[56:08.370 --> 56:11.910]  And you're going to have to get a new phone and your rates might go up.
[56:12.090 --> 56:15.530]  Let's hear it for fewer jobs, fewer choices, and more money for executives.
[56:15.770 --> 56:20.590]  Yeah, all these things always result in jobs being cut and things being merged together.
[56:21.310 --> 56:31.510]  7,000 people were going to get laid off from one of these mergers this past week employees will probably lose their jobs in this SBC buyout.
[56:31.750 --> 56:36.550]  And you just get these bigger and bigger companies that are ansible to fewer and fewer people.
[56:36.770 --> 56:39.390]  It's interesting to watch but sad to witness.
[56:40.050 --> 56:41.490]  Anyway, that's it for us this week.
[56:41.770 --> 56:51.130]  Off the Hook comes to you every Wednesday night between 7 and 8 o'clock on WBAI New York except for next week and we won't be on but we will be on in two weeks.
[56:51.310 --> 56:55.790]  Again, you can write to us OTH at 2600.com For everybody, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[56:56.110 --> 56:56.910]  Have a good night.
[56:56.910 --> 56:58.110]  Let
[57:28.710 --> 57:31.150]  me get South by the way
[57:35.590 --> 57:37.610]  South by
[58:00.560 --> 58:02.940]  South by the way