[00:00.000 --> 00:13.380]  We are going to monitor what the Air Force Academy is doing about this, and we're going to speak to witnesses and people who were involved in getting attacked or being discriminated against.
[00:13.760 --> 00:19.180]  We will work with our attorneys at Americans United and see what our options are.
[00:19.360 --> 00:22.020]  We may even sue the Air Force Academy.
[00:22.260 --> 00:26.860]  In Colorado Springs, Colorado, I'm Maria Cecile Collier for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:27.520 --> 00:35.660]  Free Speech Radio News is produced at Pacifica Station's WBAI in New York, KPFK in Los Angeles, and KPFA in Berkeley.
[00:35.900 --> 00:40.540]  And this is radio station WBAI in New York, where it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:49.560 --> 01:50.580]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:50.700 --> 01:51.540]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:52.800 --> 02:04.760]  Amanda Goldstein here with you for the next hour or so with a special fundraising edition, an extra fundraising edition, if you will.
[02:05.160 --> 02:07.860]  We had our fundraiser a couple of weeks ago here on the station.
[02:08.000 --> 02:10.360]  We did great, thanks to everybody who called in.
[02:10.440 --> 02:18.380]  But we've received a number of emails from people and phone calls and visits even that people wanted to pledge and they missed the show.
[02:18.380 --> 02:19.420]  Well, now is your chance.
[02:19.580 --> 02:22.360]  We'll be giving you details in just a few moments.
[02:23.000 --> 02:25.360]  We have a full cast of characters tonight.
[02:26.200 --> 02:27.480]  I use that term pretty lightly.
[02:27.600 --> 02:28.120]  Jim is here.
[02:28.320 --> 02:28.460]  Hello.
[02:28.820 --> 02:29.820]  And Mike.
[02:30.280 --> 02:30.660]  Hi.
[02:30.860 --> 02:31.220]  Redbird.
[02:31.400 --> 02:31.620]  Walter.
[02:32.200 --> 02:32.520]  Good evening.
[02:32.660 --> 02:33.200]  Junce is here.
[02:33.760 --> 02:34.080]  Hello.
[02:34.720 --> 02:36.200]  Joining us on the phone, Bernie S.
[02:36.340 --> 02:36.860]  from Philadelphia.
[02:38.760 --> 02:39.200]  Greetings.
[02:39.200 --> 02:42.040]  I'm just recovering from my sunburn at the Dayton Ham Mansion.
[02:42.040 --> 02:44.460]  And Rob from Amsterdam also joins us.
[02:45.060 --> 02:45.800]  Hello there.
[02:46.180 --> 02:48.620]  And you're on a very strange phone connection of some sort.
[02:49.280 --> 02:54.200]  Redhakt is on his way back from New Orleans and Arseny is at the Kraftwerk concert.
[02:54.380 --> 02:54.920]  You bastard.
[02:56.960 --> 03:02.020]  But that aside, yes, we had an interesting time out in Dayton, Bernie.
[03:02.280 --> 03:06.520]  We certainly tore up the town, I guess.
[03:07.620 --> 03:09.540]  Any highlights that you'd like to recount?
[03:10.460 --> 03:15.200]  It's just great meeting hundreds or thousands, really thousands of people who...
[03:15.200 --> 03:16.300]  You met thousands of people?
[03:16.760 --> 03:19.040]  Well, there were probably 20 or 30,000 people there.
[03:19.100 --> 03:21.400]  I'm sure thousands of people stopped by the 2600 van.
[03:21.560 --> 03:25.300]  And it's just good to talk with readers and listeners to the show in person.
[03:25.640 --> 03:27.960]  It's just a lot of fun meeting kindred spirits.
[03:28.540 --> 03:30.400]  Yeah, we did meet a lot of kindred spirits.
[03:30.840 --> 03:34.320]  And we got to wander around the town.
[03:34.320 --> 03:39.740]  We saw Star Wars and had all kinds of fun occasions.
[03:39.860 --> 03:41.140]  Redbird, you were there, too, for the first time.
[03:41.240 --> 03:42.080]  What are your impressions?
[03:42.520 --> 03:43.700]  They don't have sidewalks.
[03:44.500 --> 03:45.500]  Dayton doesn't have sidewalks.
[03:45.500 --> 03:46.880]  You know, I never thought of that, but you're right.
[03:47.060 --> 03:47.600]  It's true.
[03:47.780 --> 03:49.440]  We had to walk from one mall to another.
[03:49.620 --> 03:53.680]  And it was not possible unless you wanted to, you know, jump on plants and whatnot.
[03:53.900 --> 03:54.080]  Uh-huh.
[03:54.420 --> 03:57.500]  But, oh, yeah, there's all kinds of neat, cheap stuff that you can grab there.
[03:57.500 --> 04:00.120]  And it's definitely a one-of-a-kind experience.
[04:00.320 --> 04:00.920]  At the Hamvention.
[04:01.080 --> 04:02.060]  At the Hamvention, not just in Dayton.
[04:02.060 --> 04:03.220]  No, not just in a random place.
[04:03.220 --> 04:07.140]  You can grab cheap stuff in Dayton, I'm sure, but we didn't do that.
[04:07.600 --> 04:14.440]  And, of course, we want to thank our friend Lurit out there in Dayton for showing us around and keeping us safe because it's a very dangerous place sometimes.
[04:14.560 --> 04:15.560]  Yes, it was very fun.
[04:15.720 --> 04:15.920]  Yeah.
[04:16.580 --> 04:20.220]  So you guys all walked away with radios and scanners and things like that?
[04:20.340 --> 04:21.260]  And radiation detectors.
[04:21.340 --> 04:22.700]  Walter, you got something, too, didn't you?
[04:22.760 --> 04:26.860]  Yeah, I got a survey meter, an old civil defense survey meter.
[04:27.180 --> 04:28.160]  A survey meter?
[04:28.240 --> 04:28.460]  Yes.
[04:28.580 --> 04:31.520]  Is that something that they use for polls or something?
[04:31.520 --> 04:33.020]  It's like the Nielsen device.
[04:33.300 --> 04:33.460]  Uh-huh.
[04:33.560 --> 04:36.180]  It's something, well, something like the Nielsen device.
[04:36.180 --> 04:38.180]  It measures radiation exposure.
[04:38.480 --> 04:39.380]  Radiation exposure?
[04:39.560 --> 04:39.600]  Yeah.
[04:39.800 --> 04:40.700]  Oh, that's very trendy.
[04:40.980 --> 04:42.560]  What have you found so far?
[04:42.820 --> 04:44.300]  I actually haven't found anything.
[04:44.300 --> 04:45.400]  I've been very disappointed.
[04:45.400 --> 04:50.000]  I've been walking around the city with this device, and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary.
[04:50.220 --> 04:52.820]  Everything looks not radioactive to me.
[04:53.180 --> 04:55.600]  Only you would be disappointed by a result like that.
[04:55.700 --> 04:56.440]  Very disappointed.
[04:56.440 --> 04:59.860]  But you found, you once found radiation in your dishes, is that right?
[05:00.000 --> 05:00.440]  Yeah, yeah.
[05:00.520 --> 05:07.020]  A lot of old, you know, dishes, things like that, and bathroom tiles, specifically.
[05:08.300 --> 05:09.940]  Bathroom tiles are radioactive.
[05:10.180 --> 05:11.860]  Why in God's name would they be radioactive?
[05:12.140 --> 05:12.860]  My sister's bathroom.
[05:13.460 --> 05:19.540]  Uranium oxides have this nice yellow color, and they use them to glaze bathroom tiles and dishes.
[05:19.880 --> 05:22.380]  You know, your survey meter has this nice yellow color.
[05:22.380 --> 05:22.860]  It does.
[05:26.140 --> 05:26.500]  Yeah.
[05:27.080 --> 05:29.540]  That's it sitting on the table, and it looks like a traffic light almost.
[05:29.720 --> 05:29.920]  Yeah.
[05:30.080 --> 05:30.400]  It's pretty big.
[05:30.580 --> 05:31.220]  It's very noticeable.
[05:31.960 --> 05:33.780]  So I don't want to scare anyone on the subway.
[05:33.860 --> 05:34.880]  I kept it in my bag.
[05:35.100 --> 05:39.500]  You know, I was just thinking, walking around the subway with that device, my goodness.
[05:39.840 --> 05:40.000]  Yeah.
[05:40.140 --> 05:49.280]  It's too bad this is radio, because this picture, this big rectangular device, almost a foot in length and half that in width, maybe a little smaller than that.
[05:49.400 --> 05:50.720]  It screams radiation.
[05:50.980 --> 05:51.340]  It does.
[05:51.460 --> 05:52.220]  What's on the front?
[05:53.220 --> 05:54.040]  Oh, my goodness.
[05:54.160 --> 05:57.880]  It's like a handle coming out, and a little round dial with a meter.
[05:58.080 --> 06:01.560]  Oh, and it's got this really cool civil defense logo on the side from, you know, the 60s or so.
[06:01.660 --> 06:05.840]  So after this show, we're going to go over to the New York Stock Exchange and get the cops nervous.
[06:05.980 --> 06:06.920]  We'll take a survey.
[06:07.020 --> 06:09.220]  You know, they get nervous without the device.
[06:10.140 --> 06:10.820]  Oh, boy.
[06:11.180 --> 06:14.620]  Have you done anything else with it besides scare people?
[06:15.460 --> 06:16.680]  Yeah, I've been looking around.
[06:16.780 --> 06:18.640]  My sister had radioactive bathroom tiles.
[06:18.800 --> 06:21.980]  It's true that a lot of, you know, Fiesta Ware is famous for this.
[06:21.980 --> 06:22.680]  It was glazed.
[06:22.940 --> 06:26.640]  The glaze, the coloring of the glaze was a, was, had uranium in it.
[06:26.960 --> 06:29.220]  So plates, dishes are radioactive.
[06:29.680 --> 06:35.440]  I actually had a friend who had a kind of heirloom dishes from her grandmother that were radioactive.
[06:36.240 --> 06:40.140]  And you got those dishes for a song, I believe, after she wanted to get rid of them.
[06:40.140 --> 06:40.420]  Oh, yes.
[06:42.320 --> 06:44.740]  And the best thing about them is they keep your food warm.
[06:46.100 --> 06:49.720]  It's a great negotiating tool there to get something for cheap.
[06:49.940 --> 06:50.300]  Oh, yeah.
[06:50.380 --> 06:51.580]  Your car is radioactive.
[06:52.400 --> 06:53.480]  Take it off my hands.
[06:54.080 --> 06:56.260]  Now, Junt, you also attended Dayton.
[06:56.520 --> 06:57.880]  Any comments from you?
[06:58.120 --> 06:58.920]  I was surprised.
[06:59.000 --> 07:01.100]  I didn't realize it would be as much fun as it was.
[07:01.420 --> 07:02.940]  I figured, you know, Dayton...
[07:02.940 --> 07:03.780]  Hanging out with us.
[07:03.880 --> 07:05.080]  No matter where you go, it's going to be fun.
[07:05.180 --> 07:07.240]  Everyone I'm told where I was going, they're like, well, what's in Dayton?
[07:08.060 --> 07:09.000]  Why are you going there?
[07:09.120 --> 07:10.060]  But I had a really good time.
[07:10.360 --> 07:11.440]  I think I'm a lifer now.
[07:11.740 --> 07:17.060]  Even the trip back where we had to stop on I-78 for over an hour and watch as something happened up the road.
[07:17.140 --> 07:17.680]  That was interesting.
[07:17.820 --> 07:18.360]  That was fun.
[07:18.540 --> 07:18.740]  Yeah.
[07:19.040 --> 07:19.460]  But...
[07:19.460 --> 07:21.880]  And congratulations to Walt who got his license there.
[07:22.000 --> 07:23.900]  I got my FCC license at Dayton.
[07:24.220 --> 07:24.600]  Your FCC?
[07:24.760 --> 07:25.280]  Your ham license?
[07:26.020 --> 07:29.960]  I'm licensed by the FCC to transmit on the amateur bands.
[07:30.160 --> 07:32.080]  Well, then go ahead and transmit away.
[07:32.380 --> 07:33.140]  Not here, though.
[07:34.480 --> 07:34.900]  Okay.
[07:36.300 --> 07:39.820]  Any other thoughts on Dayton before we move on to other subject matter?
[07:41.760 --> 07:42.280]  No.
[07:42.520 --> 07:42.700]  Okay.
[07:43.060 --> 07:44.880]  Well, Rob from Amsterdam joins us.
[07:44.960 --> 07:57.280]  And if you've been reading the 2600 website recently, you might have noticed a story there about a problem that has come up with regards to the upcoming What the Hack conference in July.
[07:58.300 --> 07:59.580]  Now, there have been updates.
[07:59.760 --> 08:01.360]  There's all kinds of details to fill in.
[08:01.360 --> 08:02.520]  And so I'll just let Rob do that.
[08:02.640 --> 08:05.460]  Tell us what happened and what's happening now.
[08:06.620 --> 08:07.140]  Okay.
[08:07.280 --> 08:07.800]  Can you hear me?
[08:08.180 --> 08:09.100]  I hear you just fine.
[08:09.780 --> 08:10.300]  Okay.
[08:10.900 --> 08:12.880]  We're organizing the What the Hack conference.
[08:13.480 --> 08:15.980]  Your listeners may know a little bit about it.
[08:16.900 --> 08:27.660]  It's a continuation of these every four-year conferences that we've been doing mostly since 1989, and every edition has seen its problems.
[08:27.660 --> 08:33.580]  Every edition has seen its sort of antagonism with the Dutch authorities.
[08:34.020 --> 08:46.000]  In 93, they tried to sort of antagonize the people that were renting the campsite to us, which is sort of the Dutch Automobile Association, I guess you would call them.
[08:46.000 --> 09:01.260]  In 97, the National Forest Service, the Dutch National Forest Service, got a visit from people that said they would be accomplices to any crime that could possibly be committed there, which the National Forest Service said, no, we won't be.
[09:01.700 --> 09:02.160]  Sorry.
[09:03.240 --> 09:15.940]  Then in 2001, they tried the same thing with the university, and now they're trying it with the Boxtel municipality, where this estate is, where we're going to be having this year's edition.
[09:18.160 --> 09:33.180]  What we've received from the mayor of that municipality is a nice letter that says, in light of the fact that there is grave fear that this event will endanger law and order as well as public safety, I, in my capacity as an authorized official, am here with informing you that I will not issue such a permit,
[09:33.520 --> 09:37.340]  which we felt was sort of uncalled for.
[09:37.860 --> 09:52.520]  So we organized a small protest, wrote some letters, got other people to write lots of letters, and I think we're in the process of resolving it.
[09:52.760 --> 10:01.840]  In fact, tomorrow, which is a mere nine hours from now, I'll be having a meeting with these people.
[10:02.080 --> 10:10.200]  And we're going to straighten the last sort of details out, and I expect to have a permit for the event in my hands really soon.
[10:10.420 --> 10:12.460]  Now, Raph, you say this happens every time.
[10:13.560 --> 10:17.760]  Is there a reason why it happens, I don't want to say at the last minute, but pretty close?
[10:17.900 --> 10:19.340]  You know, we're two months away from this thing.
[10:19.900 --> 10:21.260]  Is this a tactic of theirs?
[10:22.120 --> 10:23.600]  Last time it happened much closer.
[10:23.820 --> 10:34.320]  Last time it was two weeks before the event that they tried to scare the College of Deans of the university into becoming accomplices again to all these horrible crimes that we would be committing.
[10:34.940 --> 10:37.080]  And how many horrible crimes did you actually commit?
[10:37.860 --> 10:39.380]  Well, that's the fun thing.
[10:39.500 --> 10:42.100]  We haven't had any incidents since 1989.
[10:42.160 --> 10:48.220]  We have a 16-year incident-free event, which bothers them to no end.
[10:48.220 --> 10:53.700]  And I should point out, that's simply because that's when you started the events, not that there was a horrible crime in 1989.
[10:54.380 --> 10:55.200]  No, no, no, no.
[10:55.600 --> 11:00.480]  We've started the events in 1989, and we haven't had any incidents since our inception.
[11:00.820 --> 11:01.000]  Okay.
[11:01.960 --> 11:15.880]  They've been sending ever more cyber cops to look at us, to study what we do, to sit around and show that the Dutch state cares about law and order.
[11:16.300 --> 11:21.880]  But much to their dismay, they haven't been able to uncover any crimes.
[11:22.420 --> 11:26.860]  And I think the realization just won't set that we're not committing any.
[11:27.540 --> 11:28.040]  Mm-hmm.
[11:28.340 --> 11:36.480]  Well, now, of course, we all have a perception of the Netherlands as a very sort of a liberal oasis where you can pretty much do whatever you want.
[11:36.600 --> 11:37.420]  Everyone's all laid back.
[11:37.420 --> 11:38.440]  There are no problems whatsoever.
[11:38.860 --> 11:40.680]  Are we mistaken in that assumption?
[11:42.420 --> 11:56.040]  I would advise anyone with those sort of ideas in their head to read up on the last 10 years of Dutch history, because whatever was there that resembles that is going down the tubes really, really, really fast.
[11:57.120 --> 11:57.840]  Mm-hmm.
[11:58.460 --> 12:05.080]  Well, you guys just had an election today, actually, where I think a lot of people said no to the current government.
[12:05.080 --> 12:05.940]  Is that true?
[12:06.980 --> 12:14.860]  Well, it was a referendum, actually, on whether or not we should ratify the treaty that is mistakenly called the European Constitution.
[12:16.440 --> 12:26.760]  And people voted overwhelmingly, in fact, voted no, which is more seen as a statement against the current government than it is as a statement against this particular treaty.
[12:28.220 --> 12:38.840]  Now, are those people who are against the government because they're not clamping down enough on law and order, or people more along your lines?
[12:40.400 --> 12:47.860]  Well, that's the weird thing about a referendum, where you can only say yes and no, is usually the opposition to whatever the government point of view.
[12:47.980 --> 12:49.760]  The government is a coalition from the center.
[12:49.980 --> 12:55.120]  So the opposition comes from the two extremes, left and right of that center.
[12:55.720 --> 12:58.940]  So it's really hard to say what that no means.
[12:59.060 --> 13:06.600]  In France, it's more clear that the no, because they had a referendum about a week ago, and it was also the outcome was also no.
[13:06.820 --> 13:11.960]  And there you can sort of say, well, that's linked to xenophobia.
[13:12.400 --> 13:13.780]  It's more coming from the right.
[13:13.940 --> 13:19.920]  It's Front National, which is the sort of extreme right in France.
[13:20.400 --> 13:24.880]  And here, I would guess you would say it's more from the left.
[13:25.660 --> 13:27.580]  So it's hard to say what it means.
[13:28.560 --> 13:34.960]  Well, the thing is, people are expressing themselves, and hopefully that will lead you in a positive direction.
[13:35.780 --> 13:42.880]  But with regards to this kind of event that's coming up in July, you've had several of them.
[13:43.120 --> 13:45.940]  You've always been challenged close to the last minute.
[13:47.100 --> 13:48.680]  What can we expect to happen next?
[13:50.900 --> 13:59.180]  Well, my fear is sort of that that for lack of any any crimes being committed there, at some point, they'll just make crimes happen there.
[14:00.160 --> 14:00.920]  How so?
[14:02.100 --> 14:07.680]  Well, we've they've tried really, really hard to to stick crimes to us.
[14:07.780 --> 14:18.000]  They've tried really hard to look at everything that was happening to sort of beg system administrators to please report whatever they saw that they even thought was suspicious that could be coming from us.
[14:19.540 --> 14:26.260]  And and my fear is they'll just send somebody to do something horrible and then sort of point the finger at all of us and say, see, they're evil hackers.
[14:27.180 --> 14:28.980]  But that didn't happen in the past.
[14:29.680 --> 14:31.180]  That did not happen in the past.
[14:31.300 --> 14:39.800]  No, but they I think sort of my my general feeling is they're sort of tired of looking at us really, really closely to see if we maybe commit crimes.
[14:40.500 --> 15:02.540]  So either they should by now have accepted the fact that we don't commit any, that we're just there to learn from each other and that the word hacker just means so much more and that this is not, in fact, about causing World War three, but that this is about sharing and it's about some some political issues that it's about whether or not the content industry owns it all.
[15:02.780 --> 15:05.700]  It's about European software patents.
[15:06.760 --> 15:08.060]  It's about all these things.
[15:08.540 --> 15:13.120]  And either they should have gotten that by now or they're just out to get us.
[15:13.300 --> 15:16.280]  And I'm I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist.
[15:16.360 --> 15:18.780]  I don't really want to believe that my government's out to get me.
[15:19.340 --> 15:24.700]  It's just that it becomes harder and harder to see what the objective could be otherwise.
[15:24.900 --> 15:26.720]  Well, do you think it's limited to just your government?
[15:29.840 --> 15:32.820]  I think this thing is is mostly limited to my government.
[15:33.020 --> 15:42.900]  Yeah, this this the opposition to this particular conference is is is some people in Dutch government being either scared or you could you could think of all sorts of things.
[15:43.040 --> 15:53.100]  You could think of people just not wanting to have to go here with a bunch of cyber cops at the end of July because they want to be on a campsite in France.
[15:54.360 --> 15:59.180]  It doesn't have to be a complicated conspiracy, but it's abuse of power.
[15:59.280 --> 15:59.840]  That's for sure.
[16:00.980 --> 16:04.360]  So now, what do you say to the people that want to go to this thing?
[16:04.480 --> 16:08.760]  People who have already bought tickets, people who are considering buying tickets?
[16:09.780 --> 16:13.720]  Oh, we've had massive tons of support, and it's going to happen.
[16:14.220 --> 16:18.080]  We've pretty much resolved our issue with with the with the Boxtel local council.
[16:19.660 --> 16:30.960]  Dave Boxtel over the past week and a half has been answering media calls from all over the world, literally, from the New York Times to all the Dutch national newspapers.
[16:30.960 --> 16:32.140]  They were on the radio.
[16:32.360 --> 16:33.000]  They were everywhere.
[16:35.220 --> 16:39.360]  And they want out, and they they want this thing to happen.
[16:39.760 --> 16:45.500]  As they say on their own website, they have additional information now, and they're looking at our application favorably.
[16:46.360 --> 16:51.220]  And it is my impression that they're doing everything now to help us to get this permit really quickly.
[16:51.780 --> 16:53.860]  Okay, so that's that's that's good.
[16:54.580 --> 16:56.240]  We've received lots of support.
[16:56.380 --> 17:03.720]  Members of Parliament have written writers, journalists, professors, people from all walks of life.
[17:03.880 --> 17:18.000]  I spoke to I only spoke briefly, but I spoke to a general practitioner, a doctor from Denmark, who on the very first day that we put out a press release had been on the phone with the mayor of Boxtel for over an hour.
[17:18.380 --> 17:22.560]  How does a doctor in Denmark call the mayor of a town in Netherlands?
[17:22.560 --> 17:24.740]  That that was my question exactly.
[17:25.000 --> 17:37.260]  But apparently, this this doctor in Denmark that I don't know, and spent an hour on the phone with the mayor of Boxtel, telling him that he was indeed also going to this to this to this to this conference.
[17:37.500 --> 17:39.360]  This is the hacking GP.
[17:41.280 --> 17:53.380]  He was also going to this conference and that he was in no way an evil hacker and sort of describing what he sort of his whole background and educating the mayor in as to what kind of people we are.
[17:54.340 --> 17:56.400]  And I think that's all been helpful.
[17:56.600 --> 18:00.380]  I think I think the Boxtel municipality has gotten the message.
[18:01.040 --> 18:01.980]  That's that's amazing.
[18:02.160 --> 18:05.940]  I do want to meet this doctor from Denmark that was able to have this long conversation with the mayor.
[18:06.260 --> 18:14.160]  Things like that are pretty unheard of here, where you can actually reach a government official and talk to them and engage them in conversation for a lengthy period of time.
[18:15.380 --> 18:18.360]  But I agree, I think it's going to take place.
[18:18.500 --> 18:19.500]  I think it's going to be a great success.
[18:19.500 --> 18:27.880]  It's just a shame that we always have to have these hassles from from some uninformed people that that think it's just going to be complete madness and mayhem.
[18:30.520 --> 18:31.960]  Yeah, yeah, I agree.
[18:32.540 --> 18:35.840]  We have the same thing here in the states, of course, when we do the whole conferences, but they always happen.
[18:35.940 --> 18:39.480]  You know, we always you don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but a lot does.
[18:40.100 --> 18:44.020]  And in the end, we always figure out a way to make it happen.
[18:45.640 --> 18:49.400]  Okay, Rob, I have to apologize now, because what we have to do is beg for money on the air.
[18:50.020 --> 18:53.480]  And unfortunately, that's a necessary part of our survival.
[18:54.860 --> 18:57.100]  And that's what keeps this radio station alive.
[18:57.300 --> 19:00.240]  So let me quickly tell people what we have available.
[19:00.520 --> 19:07.420]  And again, this is only available for this this airtime period between seven and 8pm here in New York City.
[19:07.600 --> 19:11.000]  So after eight o'clock, you will not be able to get these premiums.
[19:11.100 --> 19:13.360]  All right, you'll still be a pleasure to the radio station.
[19:13.560 --> 19:14.260]  But for different things.
[19:14.380 --> 19:16.440]  Yes, Jim, it's available outside of New York City, though.
[19:17.160 --> 19:17.640]  Wait a minute, it's available.
[19:17.740 --> 19:20.460]  You said it's available only between seven and eight in New York City.
[19:20.640 --> 19:21.880]  No, I was referring to the time in New York City.
[19:22.000 --> 19:22.200]  Yes.
[19:22.300 --> 19:23.520]  No, of course, it's available anywhere.
[19:23.720 --> 19:24.760]  You can be on Pluto, it doesn't matter.
[19:25.060 --> 19:31.040]  As long as you call us within the next 40 minutes, I'd say 212-209-2950.
[19:31.160 --> 19:32.260]  Let me tell you what we have.
[19:32.840 --> 19:34.380]  Will we pay the shipping to Pluto?
[19:35.440 --> 19:37.060]  Well, yeah, if you calculate it.
[19:37.160 --> 19:37.680]  Sure, why not?
[19:37.840 --> 19:38.140]  All right.
[19:39.760 --> 19:41.580]  We have a bunch of different things.
[19:41.680 --> 19:45.000]  First of all, everybody who pledges $25 or above gets what, Mike?
[19:45.500 --> 19:46.940]  They get an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[19:47.020 --> 19:47.400]  That's right.
[19:47.740 --> 19:49.540]  None of you are wearing an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[19:49.540 --> 19:50.220]  I'm surprised.
[19:50.480 --> 19:51.180]  I'm stunned.
[19:51.720 --> 19:52.420]  I'm shocked.
[19:53.060 --> 19:55.200]  Maybe on the phone, Bernie, are you wearing one?
[19:56.620 --> 19:58.940]  I'm not wearing one tonight, but I wore one last week.
[19:59.220 --> 20:02.480]  You know, you could have lied so easily and told me you were wearing one.
[20:02.700 --> 20:10.480]  I wore one to a radio transmitter reconstruction project this weekend, and people were familiar with the show.
[20:11.160 --> 20:11.520]  Okay.
[20:11.520 --> 20:13.340]  Well, that's the kind of thing that happens.
[20:13.340 --> 20:17.220]  If you wear the shirt, people come up to you and talk to you and say, why?
[20:17.480 --> 20:18.240]  What is that?
[20:19.700 --> 20:21.500]  And you can have conversations like that, too.
[20:21.800 --> 20:23.140]  212-209-2950.
[20:23.280 --> 20:25.320]  That's for every pledge of $25 or above, but it gets better.
[20:25.720 --> 20:26.720]  It gets much better.
[20:26.840 --> 20:31.860]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get the off-the-hook DVD.
[20:32.280 --> 20:41.600]  Now, what that is, that's a special DVD that has every single radio show that we've done between the years 1988 and the end of 2004, last year.
[20:42.220 --> 20:43.640]  They're in MP3 format.
[20:43.800 --> 20:48.540]  And yes, they are all available on the web, but it would take you the better part of a lifetime to download them all.
[20:48.980 --> 20:50.600]  Well, maybe not, but a long time.
[20:50.600 --> 20:52.160]  It's a real pain to do that.
[20:52.720 --> 20:57.020]  Here, we have them all on one disc, on one DVD.
[20:57.680 --> 21:01.120]  And you can listen to any show you want in that period of time.
[21:01.260 --> 21:02.440]  That's for a pledge of $75.
[21:02.760 --> 21:03.580]  And you also get the shirt.
[21:03.740 --> 21:04.760]  You also get the shirt with that.
[21:04.900 --> 21:10.560]  You could remix the shows into something even more exciting if you want.
[21:10.560 --> 21:11.660]  Yeah, that's called fair use.
[21:11.800 --> 21:13.840]  I think so, while wearing the shirt.
[21:14.540 --> 21:16.380]  Yeah, you could go crazy with that.
[21:17.180 --> 21:18.040]  Okay, even more.
[21:18.400 --> 21:21.640]  If you want to pledge $100, you have a choice.
[21:21.640 --> 21:23.360]  There's two things you can get for a $100 pledge.
[21:23.540 --> 21:30.720]  You can get a copy of the Freedom Downtime DVD, and that is an autographed, a special autographed copy of this.
[21:30.840 --> 21:33.300]  We were selling these at Dayton, and they were very, very popular.
[21:33.720 --> 21:34.480]  Extremely popular.
[21:35.440 --> 21:41.520]  You will get a Freedom Downtime DVD signed by myself and Kevin Mitnick, along with the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[21:42.080 --> 21:43.440]  That's for a pledge of $100.
[21:43.640 --> 21:53.880]  Freedom Downtime, of course, being the documentary that we made a couple of years ago, concerning the whole Kevin Mitnick story, concerning the hacker world, traveling across the country, all kinds of fun things like that.
[21:54.700 --> 21:56.640]  Also, for $100, you have this choice.
[21:56.760 --> 22:00.820]  You can get the new Kevin Mitnick book, which is The Art of Intrusion.
[22:00.920 --> 22:05.560]  In fact, I have a couple of words about The Art of Intrusion from a local newspaper in just a moment.
[22:05.860 --> 22:08.080]  That book will be signed by Kevin Mitnick.
[22:08.080 --> 22:09.040]  That's for a pledge of $100.
[22:09.560 --> 22:12.960]  And again, you get the $2,600 t-shirt on top.
[22:12.980 --> 22:15.500]  Not $2,600, the Off the Hook t-shirt on top of that.
[22:16.220 --> 22:30.940]  Now, if you want everything, you want the DVD, you want the book, you want the Off the Hook DVD as well, Off the Hook Freedom Downtime, Art of Deception, I'm sorry, Art of Intrusion, and the Off the Hook t-shirt for a pledge of $150, you can get it all.
[22:31.620 --> 22:34.120]  All right, 212-209-2950.
[22:34.640 --> 22:35.980]  That is our phone number.
[22:36.240 --> 22:39.380]  And we have a room full of volunteers down in the tally room.
[22:40.000 --> 22:47.460]  People who have sacrificed their Wednesday evening to be down here to take phone calls to keep this radio station going.
[22:47.780 --> 22:54.680]  And we've donated all this material to the radio station so that we can help incite you to call.
[22:54.860 --> 22:56.740]  I see one caller on the line, and that's good.
[22:56.860 --> 23:02.040]  But we know that there are a lot more out of you than a lot more of you out there than just one person.
[23:02.180 --> 23:04.420]  212-209-2950.
[23:04.600 --> 23:05.460]  Two quick things.
[23:05.660 --> 23:20.360]  First of all, not only do you get the premium, when you pledge, but you also have the satisfaction of helping support esoteric thoughts, ideas, and facts that are presented on this show, Off the Hook, and have been for the last 15 some odd years.
[23:20.840 --> 23:26.060]  And secondly, in with those premiums, there's a hidden virtual premium when you get the DVD.
[23:26.420 --> 23:28.740]  You can enter the DVD Easter egg contest.
[23:28.960 --> 23:29.360]  That's right.
[23:29.420 --> 23:35.380]  The Freedom Downtime DVD Easter egg contest, which I believe has a deadline of September 1st for all entries to be submitted.
[23:35.920 --> 23:42.460]  We have so many Easter eggs on this thing that I think we've lost track of them ourselves, and we're going to have to figure out where they all are.
[23:43.940 --> 23:45.580]  You're guaranteed to find at least one.
[23:45.960 --> 23:47.260]  There's no question about that.
[23:47.840 --> 23:49.480]  And there are many on there.
[23:49.600 --> 23:50.580]  There's a double DVD set.
[23:50.660 --> 23:52.100]  We have all kinds of fun things going on.
[23:52.400 --> 23:55.280]  The rules to the contest are on the website and in the magazine.
[23:56.020 --> 23:59.540]  And the prize is something really wondrous, I think.
[23:59.760 --> 24:01.780]  It's like a lot of stuff.
[24:01.780 --> 24:04.120]  I forget what the prize is, but it's really, really cool.
[24:04.540 --> 24:06.360]  212-209-2950.
[24:06.940 --> 24:14.260]  Again, for a pledge of $100, you'll get that Freedom Downtime DVD signed by Kevin Mitnick and myself.
[24:14.520 --> 24:17.460]  For a pledge of $150, you'll get that, plus everything else we're offering tonight.
[24:17.460 --> 24:24.480]  The Art of Intrusion, the Off the Hook t-shirt, and the Off the Hook DVD collection.
[24:24.780 --> 24:25.880]  Two calls on the line.
[24:25.880 --> 24:27.700]  212-209-2950.
[24:28.080 --> 24:29.420]  Up to $25.
[24:29.760 --> 24:35.040]  We need to raise that substantially in the next hour or so.
[24:35.140 --> 24:38.020]  And again, this is the last time we'll be doing this during the fundraiser.
[24:38.780 --> 24:40.720]  And only about 35 minutes left.
[24:40.860 --> 24:42.300]  212-209-2950.
[24:42.960 --> 24:52.680]  Now, there was a story in the Newark Star Ledger, Newark being over there in New Jersey, all about spoofing caller ID.
[24:53.020 --> 24:55.660]  It was a pretty interesting story, actually.
[24:55.800 --> 24:57.240]  It was a page one story.
[24:57.820 --> 25:06.500]  When a hoax led sharpshooting SWAT teams to shut down a New Brunswick neighborhood last month, the world learned about a dangerous new game called bombing.
[25:07.340 --> 25:08.840]  Yeah, prank phone calls.
[25:08.860 --> 25:09.160]  Wait, wait.
[25:09.260 --> 25:11.440]  Bombing is not a dangerous new game.
[25:12.220 --> 25:14.940]  It's been going on for a long time.
[25:14.940 --> 25:16.600]  In this context, I think it might be.
[25:17.040 --> 25:20.140]  Prank phone calls, once a summer pastime.
[25:20.280 --> 25:22.960]  Actually, I'd make prank phone calls in the winter.
[25:23.020 --> 25:23.780]  I did.
[25:25.460 --> 25:27.860]  They have morphed into a blood sport.
[25:29.480 --> 25:34.860]  Details are still unfolding on how the New Brunswick emergency call and others like it were faked.
[25:35.280 --> 25:42.660]  Experts on privacy and security warn that internet technology and legal loopholes are handing hoaxsters a powerful weapon to dupe everyone.
[25:42.880 --> 25:44.660]  Caller ID spoofing.
[25:45.300 --> 25:52.940]  Now, Kevin Mitnick, the co-author of The Art of Intrusion and a reformed hacker himself, says, you can't trust caller ID.
[25:53.200 --> 25:58.680]  There is no assurance that it is coming from the entity that's displayed on the device.
[25:58.900 --> 26:03.280]  In fact, this was demonstrated at one of our conferences back in 2002, H2K2.
[26:03.560 --> 26:06.500]  We demonstrated how caller ID can be faked.
[26:06.500 --> 26:08.420]  It's getting easier and easier all the time.
[26:08.480 --> 26:09.060]  It sure is.
[26:09.260 --> 26:10.500]  There's companies that do it now.
[26:11.580 --> 26:20.240]  Now, Kevin, basically in this interview, demonstrated it by calling a reporter's cell phone and making it seem as if he was calling from the reporter's office.
[26:20.740 --> 26:23.280]  And the reporter freaked out and ran away.
[26:23.480 --> 26:26.320]  Came back later and finished the article, but the point was made.
[26:27.180 --> 26:31.460]  Now, spoofing 911 calls over conventional phone networks is much harder, they say.
[26:31.640 --> 26:39.720]  They deploy an embedded billing technology called SS7, which automatically links a 911 call with a physical address of the telephone.
[26:40.400 --> 26:43.560]  Not always, but we won't get into that right now.
[26:43.660 --> 26:44.360]  Oh, look at all the calls.
[26:44.520 --> 26:45.700]  About four calls on the line.
[26:45.820 --> 26:47.460]  212-209-2950.
[26:47.660 --> 26:52.440]  Please help bring some support to this radio station and get some really nifty things as well.
[26:54.000 --> 26:58.020]  So yeah, Kevin has been talking quite a bit about this over the last couple of years.
[26:58.160 --> 27:09.160]  In fact, we demonstrated that at the Fifth Hope last year, where I think it was during the social engineering panel, we called up a particular service that allowed us to enter a phone number that we wanted to call from.
[27:09.640 --> 27:11.900]  And we called somebody else's phone number.
[27:11.960 --> 27:13.660]  And sure enough, that's the number we were calling from.
[27:14.280 --> 27:16.460]  So there are companies now that offer this.
[27:17.180 --> 27:18.640]  There are all kinds of different companies.
[27:19.820 --> 27:20.620]  Are you surprised?
[27:20.620 --> 27:21.760]  No.
[27:22.780 --> 27:23.620]  Should I be?
[27:23.800 --> 27:24.420]  I don't know.
[27:25.700 --> 27:29.620]  I'm trying to find the list of companies here.
[27:29.780 --> 27:31.780]  They basically...
[27:31.780 --> 27:32.580]  Okay, Spooftel.
[27:32.700 --> 27:33.820]  Spooftel is one of them.
[27:34.620 --> 27:36.260]  Star 38 is another.
[27:36.360 --> 27:40.000]  Now, Star 38 is interesting because that's only offered to police.
[27:40.580 --> 27:47.300]  Yeah, the police are supposed to use Star 38 to help the good guys hunt the bad guys.
[27:49.360 --> 27:50.840]  Does that say that in the article?
[27:51.040 --> 27:52.940]  That's what Star 38 says.
[27:53.140 --> 28:00.560]  Okay, we call up Spooftel, and we have them call Star 38 for us and give the phone number of the NYPD.
[28:01.600 --> 28:02.480]  Is that going to work?
[28:02.860 --> 28:03.720]  I don't know.
[28:03.860 --> 28:05.760]  I don't know what the phone number of the NYPD is, actually.
[28:07.560 --> 28:14.140]  But yeah, a lot of these companies are popping up, and it's really kind of strange and bizarre to see this happening.
[28:14.960 --> 28:21.540]  Spooftel was born in Vancouver two months ago when a computer security specialist named Ryan Perita got bored.
[28:21.640 --> 28:24.480]  There was no hockey season on TV, and he was looking for something to do.
[28:24.840 --> 28:37.020]  He thought the Star 38 service sounded cool but was miffed it only served cops, so he cooked up Spooftel and says it now has about 800 active users who average between 2,000 and 5,000 minutes a day at a dime per minute.
[28:37.200 --> 28:37.620]  Canadian.
[28:38.460 --> 28:43.080]  He promises to deal swiftly with any reported abuses but defends caller ID spoofing.
[28:43.160 --> 28:44.300]  We're offering a service.
[28:44.480 --> 28:46.920]  If someone is using it illegitimately, what can we do?
[28:47.160 --> 28:48.080]  That's the internet.
[28:48.380 --> 28:49.980]  They still sell crowbars, don't they?
[28:50.120 --> 28:51.560]  They can be used for many different things.
[28:51.740 --> 28:53.960]  I don't see anybody being stopped from selling guns.
[28:54.140 --> 28:57.260]  I would guess more people are killed by guns than from spoofing caller ID.
[28:57.740 --> 28:59.440]  You know, he's probably right about that.
[28:59.580 --> 29:00.640]  I would imagine so.
[29:01.560 --> 29:05.940]  I never heard that analogy before, but yeah, it's pretty interesting.
[29:06.500 --> 29:11.680]  Now, this is all feasible because of free software called Asterisk.
[29:11.980 --> 29:18.500]  It turns a PC with a fast internet connection into a full-fledged telephone system with features that once cost thousands of dollars.
[29:18.960 --> 29:22.120]  The barrier to entry became very low, they said.
[29:22.260 --> 29:29.940]  An Asterisk was hatched in 1999 by Mark Spencer, an Auburn University computer engineering student who was also bored at No Sports on TV.
[29:30.420 --> 29:36.320]  He also ran a tech support business for people using the free open source Linux computer operating system.
[29:36.520 --> 29:37.640]  I needed a phone system.
[29:37.740 --> 29:40.960]  I couldn't afford to buy one, so I decided to make one, recounts Spencer.
[29:41.720 --> 29:43.720]  And well, the rest is history.
[29:43.980 --> 29:46.360]  But yeah, you see sort of how these things develop.
[29:46.700 --> 29:54.680]  People just write their own software, develop technology, and before you know it, you know, the powers that be don't know what to do.
[29:55.800 --> 29:56.840]  That's what it's all about.
[29:56.840 --> 30:06.600]  Yeah, I mean, as they touched on in the article, you used to, in order to do this, you need to control a PBX, which was something that not that many people did.
[30:07.380 --> 30:18.320]  But now with this free software, you know, IP telephony, you can set this up literally for free and make calls for pennies with your choice of caller ID.
[30:18.500 --> 30:20.960]  And it's getting very, very easy.
[30:21.200 --> 30:22.740]  212-209-2950.
[30:22.740 --> 30:23.820]  Keep those calls coming in.
[30:23.880 --> 30:25.240]  We have lots of pledge levels.
[30:25.700 --> 30:30.320]  If you find this conversation interesting, then I think you'll find everything that we're offering tonight interesting.
[30:30.660 --> 30:40.660]  The Freedom Downtime DVD, the Art of Intrusion book, the DVD package with all the off-the-hooks, or it's simply a cool t-shirt that says you listen to off-the-hook.
[30:40.780 --> 30:42.500]  212-209-2950.
[30:42.820 --> 30:49.660]  Now, Rob, you're there in Amsterdam, and you're calling us in an interesting way that I believe takes advantage of some of this technology.
[30:49.780 --> 30:50.580]  Can you describe it for us?
[30:51.820 --> 30:53.300]  I'm using Skype.
[30:53.700 --> 30:57.980]  Skype is a commercial service, which it's its own protocol.
[30:58.180 --> 31:05.920]  It doesn't do one of the standard protocols, such as SIP, which is what Asterisk uses internally if you hook phones to it.
[31:06.540 --> 31:11.080]  But Skype is nice because it works really well in most cases.
[31:11.080 --> 31:12.880]  I've had some choppy phone conversations.
[31:12.880 --> 31:17.920]  In fact, I think we've had one yesterday or the day before where I was really hard to understand.
[31:18.160 --> 31:25.420]  Yeah, there were these long silences, and I wasn't sure if you were thinking about what I had said or if you had fallen asleep or something like that, and then all of a sudden, there you were again.
[31:26.840 --> 31:29.660]  Yeah, it can get a little choppy on some days.
[31:29.660 --> 31:31.020]  It's like the weather.
[31:31.140 --> 31:33.360]  You have a good Skype day or a bad Skype day.
[31:34.420 --> 31:38.160]  But mostly, the system has been treating me very well.
[31:39.040 --> 31:42.780]  I've been making most of my phone calls lately over Skype.
[31:43.040 --> 31:45.180]  Also, back to Holland, back to anywhere.
[31:45.380 --> 31:47.240]  You don't even know where the calls come out.
[31:48.100 --> 31:51.300]  So, I don't really have an outgoing caller ID because it's not sent.
[31:51.440 --> 31:53.020]  It's withheld by the system.
[31:53.220 --> 31:55.500]  Well, actually, every time you call, I get a bunch of zeros.
[31:55.840 --> 31:59.200]  I get, I think, three zeros, a one and a two, all kinds of weird numbers.
[31:59.300 --> 32:00.120]  But it's always the same.
[32:02.140 --> 32:02.940]  Yeah, it could be.
[32:03.340 --> 32:04.480]  It really depends.
[32:04.960 --> 32:07.580]  People in Holland report getting withheld caller IDs.
[32:07.940 --> 32:10.780]  People in Germany see either withheld or also zeros.
[32:11.780 --> 32:13.060]  So, it's really strange.
[32:13.220 --> 32:15.380]  But I like it a lot.
[32:15.500 --> 32:16.420]  I like Skype.
[32:16.580 --> 32:17.560]  I like the way it works.
[32:19.380 --> 32:21.880]  They claim it's encrypted if you call within Skype.
[32:22.000 --> 32:25.680]  So, if you call another Skype user, it's, it's, at least it's free and they claim it's encrypted.
[32:26.040 --> 32:34.640]  Although, they say they will work with authorities to hand over the call content if they feel the authorities are justified in requesting that content.
[32:34.640 --> 32:41.120]  Well, when you say hand over the content, do you mean the, just the data as to when the call was made or do they actually save the content of the call?
[32:42.800 --> 32:47.880]  I think it says in the privacy statement that they will actually participate with authorities.
[32:48.680 --> 32:55.820]  It doesn't really say words that make you feel good, like warrant or judicial process or anything, but they will...
[32:55.820 --> 32:57.280]  Those are all words from the 70s.
[32:57.420 --> 32:58.440]  We don't use those words anymore.
[32:59.360 --> 33:00.540]  No, I noticed.
[33:00.740 --> 33:02.200]  No, the same thing is happening here.
[33:02.320 --> 33:08.040]  But anyway, they will work with the authorities to hand over anything up to even the content of the calls.
[33:09.320 --> 33:13.080]  So, now, if somebody is interested in using Skype, how would they get started?
[33:13.260 --> 33:14.060]  What do they need to have?
[33:15.460 --> 33:22.000]  They would need to have either a Windows machine or a Macintosh machine or a Linux machine.
[33:22.440 --> 33:28.860]  And they would need to be able to browse to www.skype.com and get the software.
[33:30.460 --> 33:30.860]  Okay.
[33:31.040 --> 33:31.680]  And it's all free.
[33:31.880 --> 33:32.280]  I guess we should spell it out.
[33:32.300 --> 33:32.920]  The software is free.
[33:33.500 --> 33:42.220]  You just need to pay for outgoing credits if you want to make outgoing calls or you need to pay a subscription fee if you want what they call a Skype info number.
[33:43.100 --> 33:45.100]  What's the full spelling of Skype, Mike?
[33:45.840 --> 33:48.040]  Is it S-K-Y-P-E?
[33:49.320 --> 33:49.840]  Yeah.
[33:50.220 --> 33:50.460]  Okay.
[33:51.300 --> 33:53.500]  Now, if you're on the phone with us...
[33:53.500 --> 33:54.120]  There's also other services.
[33:54.140 --> 33:54.960]  You see there's a delay.
[33:55.220 --> 33:59.200]  This is the nightline effect where you talk over somebody and they talk over you, you know?
[33:59.660 --> 34:01.180]  So, there's a slight delay, right, Rob?
[34:01.860 --> 34:03.420]  There is a slight delay, yes.
[34:03.800 --> 34:11.160]  I was going to say, there's also another service called Vonage, V-O-N-A-G-E, which does provide SIP.
[34:11.280 --> 34:13.600]  So, it's the real standard IP telephony.
[34:13.720 --> 34:20.700]  And they actually give you a small box made by Cisco that you put in your home and you just plug your regular analog telephone into it.
[34:20.960 --> 34:23.340]  And then it just feels like phone service.
[34:23.340 --> 34:24.420]  So, you can get that box.
[34:24.680 --> 34:38.540]  For instance, if you live here in Amsterdam, you can get somebody in America to get that box for you, put it on your desk in Amsterdam, and then you have this phone number in Connecticut or wherever, in whatever area code you want a phone number in in the U.S.
[34:38.820 --> 34:40.800]  And it just rings on your desk in Amsterdam.
[34:41.500 --> 34:45.160]  Now, is the same service, is that offered in Europe anywhere?
[34:47.280 --> 34:49.920]  I think it's also offered for German phone numbers.
[34:49.920 --> 34:52.580]  I don't know of anybody doing that with Dutch phone numbers.
[34:52.580 --> 34:55.580]  So, theoretically, I could have a German phone number in the United States.
[34:56.940 --> 34:59.580]  Yes, you could have a German phone number in the United States, correct.
[35:03.020 --> 35:03.380]  Okay.
[35:03.380 --> 35:03.740]  Interesting.
[35:04.540 --> 35:08.820]  So, yeah, we're really moving in all kinds of interesting directions with technology.
[35:08.820 --> 35:13.040]  This is stuff that would have been unheard of 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, maybe.
[35:14.180 --> 35:19.820]  If you're on for the entire hour, Rob, from Amsterdam, talking to us here in New York, how much do you think it will cost you?
[35:22.220 --> 35:23.820]  1.7 Euro cents.
[35:24.040 --> 35:26.360]  So, that's about maybe $2 cents per minute.
[35:26.360 --> 35:27.920]  So, that's times 60.
[35:28.080 --> 35:29.020]  So, that's $1.20.
[35:29.440 --> 35:30.560]  For the entire hour.
[35:31.160 --> 35:31.580]  Wow.
[35:31.640 --> 35:32.620]  For the entire hour, yeah.
[35:32.620 --> 35:34.260]  When we first started this show, it would have been about a minute.
[35:34.260 --> 35:35.060]  I was on five minutes before.
[35:35.420 --> 35:35.780]  Yeah.
[35:35.900 --> 35:36.680]  It would have been about a minute.
[35:36.940 --> 35:40.560]  That would have been the cost when we started the show back in the late 80s.
[35:41.380 --> 35:41.800]  Unbelievable.
[35:41.800 --> 35:42.440]  Yeah.
[35:42.440 --> 35:43.260]  From your end.
[35:43.360 --> 35:48.360]  From my end, it was about, what, $7 or $8 a minute calling you.
[35:51.840 --> 35:52.280]  Fascinating.
[35:52.280 --> 36:00.560]  Well, again, the phone calls... I know this is a riveting conversation here, but it's important that we keep the pledge lines lively.
[36:00.560 --> 36:02.340]  We have a room full of people down there.
[36:02.880 --> 36:13.580]  Please call us, support the radio station, keep... talk of technology, talk of hackers, all kinds of interesting back and forth conversation, questions, answers.
[36:13.880 --> 36:17.760]  Keep all that on the air by calling in, pledging your support.
[36:17.860 --> 36:19.660]  212-209-2950.
[36:19.880 --> 36:22.220]  Again, we have several levels of support.
[36:22.560 --> 36:26.660]  Everybody gets a off-the-hook t-shirt for a pledge of 25 and above.
[36:26.900 --> 36:32.960]  For 75, you'll get the off-the-hook complete set of audio files on one DVD.
[36:33.780 --> 36:40.900]  For 100 bucks, you'll get your choice of a Freedom Downtime DVD, an autographed Freedom Downtime DVD, or an autographed Kevin Mitnick book.
[36:41.120 --> 36:43.320]  And for $150, you'll get everything.
[36:43.580 --> 36:46.300]  212-209-2950.
[36:46.640 --> 36:49.500]  And we know a lot of people are listening outside the US as well.
[36:49.560 --> 36:50.560]  We welcome your calls.
[36:51.220 --> 36:57.640]  And use whatever phone method you have to call us, whether it's Skype, whether it's Vonage, whether it's just plain old Verizon.
[36:58.460 --> 37:02.620]  You can even, if you want, spoof caller ID when calling us, although I don't think we'll know.
[37:02.740 --> 37:03.900]  We don't have caller ID here.
[37:04.000 --> 37:04.700]  It's amazing.
[37:04.920 --> 37:06.780]  I don't think there's a single phone here that has caller ID.
[37:07.320 --> 37:12.220]  So I'd like to play, have all kinds of experiments, but it's not possible.
[37:13.300 --> 37:18.400]  Also, the caller ID would not be very convincing on the radio if the people in the studio were looking at it.
[37:18.460 --> 37:19.940]  If it was speaking caller ID, it would.
[37:20.260 --> 37:20.740]  Do they have that?
[37:20.760 --> 37:22.020]  They have speaking caller ID, yes.
[37:22.120 --> 37:22.900]  Jim, have you played with it?
[37:22.900 --> 37:27.620]  I know someone, excuse me, I have a friend who is blind and has this.
[37:27.920 --> 37:32.440]  And it's just, reads aloud the numbers in a mechanical voice.
[37:32.600 --> 37:33.700]  And singing caller ID?
[37:33.940 --> 37:35.220]  Well, not singing, speaking.
[37:35.480 --> 37:38.020]  All right, that's an idea I came up with, and it has yet to be implemented.
[37:38.140 --> 37:40.660]  I don't know what the delay is, but I think singing caller ID is a good idea.
[37:41.020 --> 37:42.740]  And there's a video caller ID also.
[37:42.980 --> 37:43.780]  How does that work?
[37:44.220 --> 37:53.380]  Well, I think we demonstrated it at the H2K2 conference in conjunction to show how well the caller ID spoofing worked.
[37:53.420 --> 37:55.700]  We were able to project it on a big video screen.
[37:55.900 --> 38:01.540]  And it basically overlays the caller ID digits over any video source.
[38:01.740 --> 38:07.800]  So, like, you know, your TV set, you can run it in series with your cable box or your TiVo or your DVD player or whatever.
[38:08.240 --> 38:16.140]  And when the call comes in over your phone line, a little pop-up window at the bottom of the screen comes up with the caller ID, name, and number, which is kind of neat.
[38:16.440 --> 38:17.340]  Although it could be annoying.
[38:17.620 --> 38:20.580]  I imagine it would be very annoying after a while, especially if you get a lot of phone calls.
[38:21.720 --> 38:22.840]  Well, you can always turn it off.
[38:24.040 --> 38:25.900]  You can always turn off your TV, for that matter.
[38:25.980 --> 38:26.720]  Yeah, that's true, too.
[38:27.280 --> 38:27.820]  Definitely true.
[38:27.900 --> 38:28.740]  We did a lot of that in Dayton.
[38:29.540 --> 38:31.660]  Yeah, in fact, you want to talk about that a little bit?
[38:31.780 --> 38:34.440]  Again, one more time, the phone number, 212-209-2950.
[38:34.440 --> 38:35.480]  We have one call on the line.
[38:35.560 --> 38:36.440]  Let's make that five.
[38:36.800 --> 38:37.460]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[38:38.360 --> 38:50.720]  Oh, as far as turning off TVs, yeah, a bunch of us, they're came into the possession of small electronic devices, which will shut off TV sets in their vicinity.
[38:51.080 --> 39:00.120]  And we found giant video screens in movie theaters that mysteriously were shutting off, and store windows, and all kinds of places.
[39:00.420 --> 39:05.500]  Wherever there was a TV screen, they were just mysteriously just shutting down.
[39:05.940 --> 39:11.500]  And I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, because the TV-Gone devices are pretty neat.
[39:11.660 --> 39:17.540]  But yeah, we've all played with them now since you had a bunch of them in Dayton, and we were walking around the streets.
[39:17.880 --> 39:18.940]  And yeah, they are fun.
[39:19.040 --> 39:29.520]  But you know, I got to tell you, after walking around the streets of New York with one of these things, it's also very frustrating because there's so much you want to do, and I just wish they were more powerful.
[39:29.660 --> 39:36.420]  I was in one of those big mega stores yesterday, or actually two days ago, and I was trying to get all their TV sets.
[39:36.540 --> 39:37.020]  I really was.
[39:37.120 --> 39:38.520]  But it took a very long time.
[39:38.680 --> 39:43.000]  I was able to get maybe two at once, and I had to wait for it to recycle, get two more.
[39:43.180 --> 39:44.940]  I had to be fairly close to the sets.
[39:45.580 --> 39:53.360]  And you know, this thing would be so great if it was more powerful like your standard TV remote that has, you know, I guess, AAA batteries, which means it would have to be bigger.
[39:53.920 --> 40:00.900]  But the other thing that I find annoying is that you don't know what stage it's in, in the whole cycling phase.
[40:01.200 --> 40:04.700]  Every time you hit this thing, it cycles through all of the possible codes.
[40:05.440 --> 40:10.920]  And that means that it's going to eventually hit the vast majority of TV sets.
[40:11.060 --> 40:24.600]  But let's say you hit it, and you're not sure if you're at the right angle, and you want to like, you know, reposition yourself and hit it again, you're not sure if, you know, 60 seconds have passed, or 50 seconds, or however long it takes, and there's no way to really tell.
[40:24.820 --> 40:28.480]  So I've spent a lot of time just sort of like standing somewhere waiting for something to happen.
[40:28.700 --> 40:29.880]  And eventually it happens, usually.
[40:30.500 --> 40:35.200]  But other times, it's just, you know, you're frustrated because you want it to be better.
[40:35.640 --> 40:37.020]  I have noticed that too.
[40:37.200 --> 40:43.760]  And on the way back from Dayton, Walter was kind enough to drive Redbird and myself back.
[40:43.960 --> 41:02.300]  We were discussing a way to increase the infrared output of one of these devices with an array of high brightness infrared LEDs, like maybe 20 or 30 LEDs, which would be sort of like an infrared flamethrower from the standpoint of infrared.
[41:02.600 --> 41:04.800]  So I think we're going to work on that.
[41:04.940 --> 41:14.420]  I already have a whole bunch of high output infrared LEDs, and we're going to experiment with that and see how many hundreds of feet we can work this from.
[41:14.420 --> 41:24.360]  Yeah, now you're talking because that's the kind of thing that, you know, I had fun walking up to one of those display windows that have big screen TVs that they leave on all night long.
[41:24.520 --> 41:25.380]  And that's easy.
[41:25.460 --> 41:26.460]  You walk right up to it.
[41:26.540 --> 41:27.460]  And you stand there for a second.
[41:27.600 --> 41:29.340]  And you turn the thing off and you walk up to the next one.
[41:29.820 --> 41:30.920]  You know, that's that's great.
[41:31.120 --> 41:36.480]  But if you like energy, yeah, you're saving energy and you know, light pollution, all that kind of thing.
[41:36.620 --> 41:43.260]  But let's say you're in a bar, you know, and you just do the TV is annoying You kind of have to get fairly close and noticeable.
[41:43.560 --> 41:46.700]  And it's risky to your health, among other things.
[41:47.440 --> 41:49.260]  But yeah, it's a great idea.
[41:49.480 --> 41:58.740]  Not only does it turn them off in closed storefront windows, but it also turns them on, which can probably freak out the people once they open the store again.
[41:58.900 --> 41:59.020]  Yeah.
[41:59.080 --> 42:00.640]  Rob, do you have anything like this in your country?
[42:02.560 --> 42:07.640]  I know lots of people that have gotten this TV BeGone device, which I think is what you're talking about.
[42:07.720 --> 42:07.900]  Yes.
[42:10.360 --> 42:27.120]  But we were thinking about something similar years and years ago with sort of a hat with lots of very bright infrared LEDs, just like what Bernie was cooking up, and put it all in a hat so they were shining in all directions and transmitting off all the time.
[42:27.680 --> 42:32.220]  And you could also build it in the shape of a gun, so you could actually shoot the TV to turn it off.
[42:32.440 --> 42:34.440]  Yeah, that would be very popular here in New York.
[42:36.640 --> 42:38.960]  We have no end of conversation about that, I'm sure.
[42:40.140 --> 42:44.920]  The MTA has a solution for this that they put on every single LED screen that they have in the subway.
[42:45.060 --> 42:45.420]  Black tape.
[42:45.620 --> 42:46.120]  Which is duct tape.
[42:46.200 --> 42:46.400]  Yeah.
[42:46.640 --> 42:47.180]  Oh, this is duct tape.
[42:47.240 --> 42:47.320]  Yeah.
[42:48.100 --> 42:49.320]  And that's what you have to do.
[42:49.380 --> 42:51.080]  But I imagine, how are people going to deal with this?
[42:51.140 --> 42:53.020]  I mean, yeah, we're playing with this technology.
[42:53.020 --> 42:59.300]  We're figuring out ways of turning things off because they're annoying, and they really are annoying and intrusive in many situations.
[43:00.220 --> 43:03.320]  But how are people going to respond to this?
[43:03.420 --> 43:07.820]  How do you make the technology so that somebody can't just come in and turn off your TV set whenever they feel like it?
[43:08.980 --> 43:09.660]  No ideas?
[43:10.320 --> 43:11.480]  Duct tape works very well.
[43:11.740 --> 43:13.300]  Yeah, but then you can't do it yourself.
[43:13.380 --> 43:17.120]  You put a little individual code on each remote.
[43:17.120 --> 43:22.540]  A pin code that you have to program the first time you introduce a remote to your TV set.
[43:22.600 --> 43:25.860]  A universal remote, you have to enter a four-digit pin code or something like that.
[43:25.960 --> 43:29.460]  And then that remote is allowed to turn off and on your TV set.
[43:29.560 --> 43:36.120]  Well, even more interestingly, that code is transmitted to the TV, and it's transmitted with every command.
[43:36.380 --> 43:46.040]  So in other words, every code would have, let's say, for argument's sake, one, two, three, four, and then off, which would be whatever other digit it is for off.
[43:46.180 --> 43:50.900]  A different digit for louder, a different digit for softer, a different digit for channel up, channel down.
[43:51.000 --> 43:52.320]  But it would be unique for every remote.
[43:52.560 --> 43:52.760]  Right.
[43:52.940 --> 43:55.900]  But keep in mind that people don't even program their VCR clocks.
[43:56.620 --> 43:57.900]  But some people do.
[43:58.060 --> 43:58.780]  That's the point.
[43:59.000 --> 44:00.680]  So some people would do this to the remote.
[44:00.880 --> 44:04.360]  Those that don't do it to the remote, you can turn it off with TV BeGone.
[44:04.600 --> 44:06.260]  Those that do do it, they're protected.
[44:06.700 --> 44:08.960]  You're real fancy with a challenge response system.
[44:10.000 --> 44:12.960]  Yeah, well, you know, it's evolution.
[44:13.320 --> 44:14.180]  That's what it's all about.
[44:15.020 --> 44:15.740]  All right.
[44:15.980 --> 44:16.500]  Again.
[44:16.720 --> 44:18.740]  Fingerprint recognition on the remote.
[44:19.180 --> 44:19.900]  Fingerprint recognition.
[44:20.020 --> 44:20.380]  There you go.
[44:20.560 --> 44:20.880]  The fingerprints.
[44:21.140 --> 44:23.700]  You know, we were given fingerprints for a reason.
[44:23.860 --> 44:26.600]  And that's for verification so the government knows where you are.
[44:26.740 --> 44:27.920]  No, no, no.
[44:28.000 --> 44:29.580]  That's not why we're given fingerprints.
[44:29.760 --> 44:31.460]  We're given fingerprints for libraries.
[44:32.140 --> 44:34.060]  Well, the government runs the libraries, right?
[44:34.220 --> 44:42.720]  In Naperville, Illinois, they're installing fingerprint scanners on 130 library computers this summer to prevent unauthorized users.
[44:43.320 --> 44:44.240]  The library...
[44:44.240 --> 44:44.540]  Wait, wait, wait.
[44:44.540 --> 44:44.780]  What do you mean?
[44:44.940 --> 44:45.840]  Unauthorized users?
[44:46.100 --> 44:47.160]  What is an unauthorized user in the library?
[44:47.160 --> 44:48.820]  That's what I couldn't figure out, you know?
[44:50.400 --> 44:58.940]  But anyway, the spokesman for the library named Mark West said, a fingerprint is just a barcode, but it's built in.
[44:59.200 --> 45:06.820]  You know, he may be, you know, on acid saying that, but he does have a point because it's unique for every person.
[45:06.820 --> 45:10.660]  I said this at H, what was it, H2K, you know?
[45:10.780 --> 45:12.640]  It's the mark of the beast on the right hand.
[45:13.580 --> 45:15.580]  It's the sign of the apocalypse, you know?
[45:15.700 --> 45:18.340]  I did that tongue-in-cheek, totally tongue-in-cheek.
[45:18.460 --> 45:23.520]  I'm starting to believe it when you get idiots from the Naperville, Illinois library saying it for real.
[45:24.920 --> 45:27.860]  Usually librarians are pretty open-minded, but this one is not.
[45:28.360 --> 45:29.660]  I couldn't believe it when I read it.
[45:29.760 --> 45:30.700]  I still can't believe it.
[45:31.480 --> 45:32.020]  All right.
[45:32.160 --> 45:34.040]  Well, I can't believe there's no calls on the line.
[45:34.120 --> 45:35.860]  Actually, there's one, but we need more.
[45:35.960 --> 45:37.580]  212-209-2950.
[45:37.580 --> 45:38.880]  We have $480.
[45:38.920 --> 45:43.620]  I hope they haven't added up all the numbers yet because we really should be breaking 1,000 in this hour.
[45:44.520 --> 45:45.780]  212-209-2950.
[45:46.000 --> 45:49.280]  We're offering a lot of interesting things, and they won't be available after 8 o'clock.
[45:49.380 --> 45:57.700]  In the next 14 minutes, they will be gone, and then we won't be on again with another fundraiser for the foreseeable future.
[45:57.840 --> 45:59.380]  Now, Mike, you have some names of people to thank.
[45:59.380 --> 46:04.020]  Yes, and the names belong to people who we want to thank.
[46:04.040 --> 46:05.320]  People are our best contributors.
[46:05.560 --> 46:10.680]  Yes, and these folks are James, who is in Springville, Indiana.
[46:11.120 --> 46:11.520]  Cool.
[46:12.100 --> 46:13.920]  Mark, who is in Rawway, New Jersey.
[46:15.400 --> 46:18.220]  Kevin, who is in Monroe Township, also in New Jersey.
[46:18.520 --> 46:20.480]  We always get a strong New Jersey response.
[46:20.740 --> 46:21.760]  Yeah, come on, New York people.
[46:22.600 --> 46:23.360]  Let's do something about this.
[46:23.360 --> 46:24.060]  Yeah, and to the east.
[46:24.140 --> 46:25.360]  You know, Long Island, where are you guys?
[46:25.420 --> 46:25.720]  Connecticut.
[46:25.720 --> 46:26.700]  We know you're out there.
[46:26.700 --> 46:31.520]  And we have Anthony from North Augusta in South Carolina.
[46:31.720 --> 46:33.120]  Okay, that's down there.
[46:33.320 --> 46:33.500]  Yep.
[46:33.760 --> 46:36.440]  We have Jeffrey from Kirkland, Washington.
[46:36.700 --> 46:37.640]  That's way out there.
[46:38.140 --> 46:38.480]  Indeed.
[46:39.140 --> 46:43.820]  We have Gregory from Scotch Plains, New Jersey.
[46:43.980 --> 46:44.680]  Again, New Jersey.
[46:44.900 --> 46:45.360]  New Jersey.
[46:45.600 --> 46:46.480]  There's nothing wrong with New Jersey.
[46:46.520 --> 46:47.240]  Nothing wrong with New Jersey.
[46:47.240 --> 46:48.140]  No, I wouldn't go that far.
[46:49.560 --> 46:51.700]  There's Brad from Madison Heights, Michigan.
[46:52.440 --> 46:54.120]  And Earl from Vernon, Connecticut.
[46:54.580 --> 46:58.900]  Am I right in hearing you that there's not a single New York contributor there?
[46:58.900 --> 46:59.320]  I think so.
[46:59.440 --> 46:59.980]  I think you're right.
[47:00.080 --> 47:01.860]  There's no one in that list from New York.
[47:01.860 --> 47:02.960]  There's something wrong here.
[47:03.020 --> 47:03.780]  Something seriously wrong.
[47:03.900 --> 47:07.520]  Nobody from New York has called in to support this radio show.
[47:07.640 --> 47:14.480]  Not that we don't love our New Jersey listeners, but, you know, we would have to, like, change focus of the show to appeal to a more New Jersey.
[47:14.480 --> 47:17.280]  I mean, should we just turn the transmitter and point it west, you know?
[47:17.380 --> 47:18.320]  Maybe that's what we have to do.
[47:18.820 --> 47:20.620]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[47:20.840 --> 47:21.540]  Come on, New Yorkers.
[47:21.560 --> 47:23.140]  Your honor has been challenged here.
[47:23.640 --> 47:25.060]  We need to hear from more people.
[47:25.340 --> 47:26.280]  And New England, too.
[47:26.340 --> 47:27.200]  We've got a Connecticut person.
[47:27.200 --> 47:27.640]  That's great.
[47:27.780 --> 47:28.020]  Okay.
[47:28.340 --> 47:30.300]  And we're getting people from South Carolina and Washington.
[47:30.620 --> 47:31.880]  Nobody from out of the country yet, though.
[47:32.380 --> 47:32.740]  No.
[47:33.020 --> 47:33.180]  All right.
[47:33.200 --> 47:34.260]  Unless they're being anonymous.
[47:34.440 --> 47:35.520]  There's always all these anonymous people.
[47:35.520 --> 47:35.940]  That's true.
[47:36.080 --> 47:38.300]  There are anonymous people that don't like their names being read.
[47:39.000 --> 47:41.360]  But, again, you have 12 minutes to call us.
[47:41.420 --> 47:43.660]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[47:43.660 --> 47:47.300]  So, Off the Hook has been on the air since 1988 in one form or another.
[47:47.480 --> 47:52.440]  And we've tried to cover technology, developing technology in all sorts of interesting ways.
[47:53.360 --> 48:00.580]  And throughout the years, I've been spending a lot of time listening to the old radio programs, neatening them up, archiving them, that kind of thing.
[48:00.840 --> 48:11.220]  And just the history that we have covered over the years, just the way things sound differently, just the way people are, the events that we've been a part of, the governments that have changed, the world events that have happened.
[48:11.740 --> 48:13.580]  It's a fascinating time capsule.
[48:13.660 --> 48:15.940]  And this radio station has made all that possible.
[48:16.080 --> 48:20.460]  Rob, I've heard your voice a number of times on radio shows dating back to the 80s.
[48:20.940 --> 48:24.500]  And we're always talking about something interesting, something that's changing in the world.
[48:24.720 --> 48:28.060]  And it's just, it's really cool to be able to just sort of check in and hear that.
[48:31.070 --> 48:32.770]  Yeah, there's been some interesting stuff.
[48:32.990 --> 48:34.590]  There's been some interesting events.
[48:35.170 --> 48:41.170]  And of course, Bernie, we heard your whole story back in the mid-90s when you were incarcerated and going through hell.
[48:41.690 --> 48:45.470]  Well, that certainly made for some riveting listening as well.
[48:46.630 --> 48:48.810]  I felt like I was riveted to the floor, actually.
[48:49.410 --> 48:53.150]  Well, I think that was one of the suggestions that they were imposing sentence on you.
[48:54.090 --> 48:57.530]  So, yeah, you know, that's part of the whole off-the-hook package.
[48:57.870 --> 49:01.670]  Every single show from 1988 to 2004, pledge of $75.
[49:01.670 --> 49:03.610]  212-209-2950.
[49:04.230 --> 49:23.230]  But more importantly, your call keeps the radio station on the air and keeps this radio show possible for the foreseeable future until they come for us, which will probably be one of these days when we cross over the line and say something we're not supposed to say or talk about technology that they don't want us to know about.
[49:23.510 --> 49:25.470]  Well, they've already come for us, haven't they, maybe?
[49:25.590 --> 49:26.530]  Yeah, but they couldn't find us.
[49:26.770 --> 49:31.350]  Well, they've come for us many times, and they end up going away.
[49:31.350 --> 49:32.610]  And actually, don't they?
[49:32.850 --> 49:33.410]  Yeah, they do.
[49:33.510 --> 49:34.970]  They do, because we have a lot of friends.
[49:34.970 --> 49:35.790]  We have people out there.
[49:35.830 --> 49:36.350]  We have our listeners.
[49:36.490 --> 49:37.030]  We have our readers.
[49:37.250 --> 49:42.090]  We have people who support us, who just know what is right and what is wrong.
[49:42.230 --> 49:43.610]  And those are the people we're here for.
[49:44.810 --> 49:49.530]  So, if you have not already called up, please do so now, because strength is in numbers.
[49:49.650 --> 49:53.030]  And that's the only reason this place exists, is because of listeners.
[49:53.190 --> 49:55.210]  Now, we don't have commercials in this radio station.
[49:55.230 --> 49:57.370]  And it's annoying, I know, to hear people begging for money.
[49:57.390 --> 49:59.190]  And it's really annoying to be begging for money.
[49:59.590 --> 50:00.570]  But it's essential.
[50:01.350 --> 50:04.590]  We'd be off the air, and this station would be another Clear Channel station.
[50:04.810 --> 50:06.530]  And let me just say something about Clear Channel.
[50:06.670 --> 50:11.330]  There was a story that came out very recently about Radio Free Ohio.
[50:11.910 --> 50:15.910]  Now, everybody thought Radio Free Ohio was a pirate radio station.
[50:16.070 --> 50:23.930]  For weeks, it sounded as if amateurs had been bleeding their voices into the broadcast of stations in Akron, Ohio, owned by Clear Channel, owned by Clear Channel, the corporate radio giant.
[50:24.170 --> 50:34.090]  At the website, www.radiofreeohio.com, there was a manifesto about corporate-controlled music playlists that took potshots at several local Clear Channel stations.
[50:34.150 --> 50:38.390]  But there was no information about who had posted the screed or what exactly Radio Free Ohio was.
[50:38.790 --> 50:45.290]  Last week, it came out that Radio Free Ohio was not a prank on Clear Channel, but in fact, a prank by Clear Channel.
[50:45.290 --> 50:46.290]  Yeah.
[50:47.170 --> 50:47.270]  Yeah.
[50:47.270 --> 50:54.590]  So, an AM station the company owns in Akron is switching formats from sports talk to, quote-unquote, progressive talk.
[50:54.750 --> 50:59.190]  And Clear Channel would very much like anyone suspicious of corporate media to tune in.
[51:00.010 --> 51:09.210]  Now, I mean, you know, where else but in the United States can you have corporate radio operating a station that's anti-corporate radio?
[51:09.210 --> 51:12.990]  It's a mirror image of the elections that we have in this country.
[51:13.010 --> 51:15.110]  I think they're giving them a little bit too much credit.
[51:15.270 --> 51:17.910]  You're saying it's a station that is actually anti-corporate radio.
[51:17.990 --> 51:22.290]  It's a station that purports to be anti-corporate radio, which is a key difference.
[51:23.350 --> 51:28.950]  Well, they say Clear Channel is dedicated to entertaining radio and to getting results for our advertisers.
[51:29.710 --> 51:32.050]  There's a hole in the market here, and we're going to fill it.
[51:32.130 --> 51:33.170]  Everything to them is a market.
[51:33.350 --> 51:38.330]  That's the key is the advertising, and we don't have that, so we can say what we want without having to worry about anything.
[51:38.330 --> 51:40.430]  Yeah, when we say Clear Channel sucks, we mean it.
[51:40.710 --> 51:44.070]  You know, we really do, because we're not trying to sell you something.
[51:44.230 --> 51:49.070]  We're expressing an opinion, and we have phone lines so our listeners can express opinions as well.
[51:49.230 --> 51:53.310]  And that's something you don't really have in Clear Channel land.
[51:53.530 --> 51:55.370]  You have commercials.
[51:55.370 --> 51:56.510]  You have marketing.
[51:57.250 --> 51:59.710]  You have all kinds of fakeness and lying.
[52:00.930 --> 52:09.070]  But, you know, an opinion might get out occasionally, but the only reason the opinion gets out is so they can sell a product and get attention or shock somebody.
[52:09.310 --> 52:10.510]  Here we talk about issues.
[52:10.510 --> 52:11.430]  Here we learn.
[52:11.610 --> 52:12.290]  Here we teach.
[52:13.010 --> 52:16.810]  And if you want to be a part of that, we really do need your help.
[52:16.970 --> 52:18.830]  212-209-2950.
[52:18.830 --> 52:20.270]  We have five calls on the line.
[52:20.270 --> 52:20.970]  Make that six.
[52:22.010 --> 52:26.830]  And we have a whole lot of people down there that are ready to answer your phone call.
[52:26.830 --> 52:33.090]  Again, Pledge of $25 gets you a shirt, Pledge of $150 gets you everything, and there's all kinds of levels in between.
[52:33.450 --> 52:40.050]  I just want to go briefly to a story that we've talked about before on the show, which has had some interesting developments.
[52:41.450 --> 52:46.870]  We've talked about this company called Covance, which, I guess, tests drugs for safety.
[52:47.210 --> 52:58.030]  And in so doing, they seem to manage to abuse a lot of animals, breaking the law in the countries in which they operate generally, and just being kind of not nice to the animals.
[52:59.810 --> 53:04.230]  We talked about some evidence that they did this in Germany.
[53:04.230 --> 53:09.830]  And now, to no one's surprise, an investigation in the United States has found they're doing the same thing here.
[53:11.150 --> 53:21.950]  This group called CovanceCruelty.com is their website, has put this video footage of this animal abuse in Vienna, Virginia, on its website.
[53:22.150 --> 53:23.790]  And this is all a bunch of Americans.
[53:23.790 --> 53:26.790]  Covance, as we've mentioned before, is headquartered in Princeton, New Jersey.
[53:27.830 --> 53:31.170]  And for some reason, they're suing this time in the U.K.
[53:31.270 --> 53:31.590]  courts.
[53:31.810 --> 53:32.910]  They're always suing overseas.
[53:32.910 --> 53:34.650]  They're always suing overseas.
[53:35.750 --> 53:36.770]  So in the U.K.
[53:36.850 --> 53:42.250]  courts, they're trying to get this video out of the U.K., but you can still see it in the U.S.
[53:42.330 --> 53:44.810]  And, you know, we kind of joke why they do this.
[53:44.930 --> 53:52.570]  But their own lawyers in court say that independent advice had been given from the U.S.
[53:53.010 --> 53:58.830]  counsel to the British counsel that placed a question mark over whether injunctive relief could be achieved in the U.S.
[53:59.910 --> 54:02.210]  He described it as debatable under U.S.
[54:02.330 --> 54:10.190]  law as to whether an employer could obtain an injunction acting in this way because of a concern that such relief would infringe the First Amendment of the U.S.
[54:10.290 --> 54:10.630]  Constitution.
[54:10.890 --> 54:15.050]  So here we have the lawyers for Covance saying in court in the U.K.
[54:15.630 --> 54:20.230]  that this sort of thing is quite probably legal in the U.S.
[54:20.230 --> 54:23.230]  and so I would encourage U.S.
[54:23.350 --> 54:32.070]  residents and other people who, you know, might want to go there to check out this footage at...
[54:32.070 --> 54:34.750]  Did they mean for us to see that comment or was that only for the British people?
[54:34.870 --> 54:35.550]  I don't know.
[54:36.150 --> 54:36.430]  Wow.
[54:36.430 --> 54:36.430]  Wow.
[54:36.610 --> 54:38.190]  That's pretty telling right there.
[54:38.430 --> 54:38.590]  Yeah.
[54:38.930 --> 54:40.690]  They usually... they don't say that.
[54:40.810 --> 54:42.370]  So, you know, we do have the First Amendment.
[54:42.550 --> 54:45.770]  We should take advantage of the First Amendment and express views.
[54:45.770 --> 54:50.230]  That's what it's all about because you can see how they really want you not to.
[54:50.370 --> 54:52.270]  And they will go to any length they can.
[54:52.770 --> 54:54.890]  And fortunately, they don't have that ability here.
[54:55.170 --> 54:57.090]  But they would if they could.
[54:57.270 --> 55:00.650]  The original website for the footage is covancecruelty.com.
[55:00.650 --> 55:02.350]  And if you are not in the U.K.
[55:02.430 --> 55:11.230]  and would like to make a copy of this footage, you can come to my website, which is mlcastle.net slash covance.
[55:11.390 --> 55:12.290]  How do you spell covance?
[55:12.430 --> 55:14.510]  C-O-V-A-N-C-E.
[55:15.830 --> 55:18.370]  And there will be a copy.
[55:18.610 --> 55:20.670]  But please don't look at it if you're in the U.K.
[55:20.850 --> 55:22.730]  Now, Rob, have you heard about this over in Holland?
[55:23.970 --> 55:24.850]  No, I haven't.
[55:25.010 --> 55:26.590]  It sounds like an interesting story, though.
[55:26.830 --> 55:27.450]  Yeah, yeah.
[55:27.450 --> 55:34.490]  And it's another thing that we would have never been able to mention if we had advertisers because there are tons of people that are testing these products.
[55:34.690 --> 55:40.810]  And certainly we would have had an advertiser if we were Clear Channel or any other company that would be testing products.
[55:41.070 --> 55:45.290]  Oh, they'd be mad because we're, you know, criticizing what they do.
[55:45.470 --> 55:47.550]  They're very reason for being.
[55:47.810 --> 55:48.570]  Bernie, you had something?
[55:49.550 --> 55:50.910]  Is this the one with the pigs?
[55:52.390 --> 55:53.650]  I think they have everything.
[55:53.710 --> 55:54.830]  They have all kinds of animals.
[55:54.830 --> 55:56.370]  I know they have monkeys.
[55:56.390 --> 55:59.590]  I don't want to say what else they do and don't have because I'm not quite sure.
[55:59.810 --> 56:01.190]  Yeah, we talked about this last year.
[56:02.030 --> 56:05.330]  We wouldn't want to upset our sponsor, Jimmy Dean Sausages.
[56:08.850 --> 56:11.290]  Well, that's more than experimentation on animals.
[56:12.610 --> 56:13.130]  All right.
[56:13.230 --> 56:16.230]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[56:16.230 --> 56:20.230]  If you support anything that you've heard, any of the ideas that we've been expressing.
[56:20.350 --> 56:21.990]  We're pretty much out of time now.
[56:21.990 --> 56:24.810]  Now, we want to thank these people in the minutes left.
[56:25.030 --> 56:30.030]  We want to thank Dan from Neshanik in New Jersey.
[56:30.390 --> 56:31.430]  Another New Jersey, see?
[56:31.530 --> 56:32.230]  Yeah, another one.
[56:32.330 --> 56:37.450]  And we want to thank Lance, who is from Port Saskatchewan, which is in Alberta, Canada.
[56:37.790 --> 56:38.410]  Wait a minute.
[56:38.590 --> 56:40.270]  Port Saskatchewan isn't in Saskatchewan.
[56:40.270 --> 56:43.150]  That's according to this information I have here.
[56:43.310 --> 56:43.670]  Wow.
[56:43.890 --> 56:44.430]  All right.
[56:44.970 --> 56:47.650]  Well, the time is up.
[56:47.810 --> 56:48.630]  We're out of here.
[56:48.630 --> 56:50.170]  You have a couple of minutes.
[56:50.290 --> 56:52.850]  You have a couple of minutes to call in before we're really out of here.
[56:53.150 --> 56:55.610]  212-209-2950.
[56:55.830 --> 56:57.330]  2,600 meetings this Friday.
[56:57.490 --> 56:58.090]  We'll see you there.
[56:58.770 --> 57:00.070]  Please make that phone call.
[57:00.370 --> 57:01.730]  We're speaking to you.
[57:01.950 --> 57:02.390]  Good night.
[57:03.610 --> 57:07.690]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:09.750 --> 57:13.850]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:16.570 --> 57:19.190]  Hockey crew, the latest news.
[57:19.510 --> 57:22.290]  About the boy who was shot and abused.
[57:22.830 --> 57:25.350]  The funny thing is, that's not all.
[57:25.770 --> 57:28.390]  It was your name that was called.
[57:28.390 --> 57:32.190]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:34.250 --> 57:38.310]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:40.930 --> 57:44.010]  Now your cues of being a good man.
[57:44.470 --> 57:46.770]  Take your punch, we did the law of the land.
[57:47.430 --> 57:50.390]  Now let this be a lesson to you.
[57:50.850 --> 57:53.090]  Rooty, I'm talking to you.
[57:53.270 --> 57:56.850]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:58.550 --> 58:03.030]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:35.150 --> 58:40.070]  Yes, it's you that I'm talking to.
[58:41.730 --> 58:46.210]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:47.050 --> 58:48.870]  Pick it up, pick it up, pick it up.
[58:48.890 --> 58:51.490]  You're going around cause it's their mindset.
[58:52.090 --> 58:54.570]  Now did you know you could never win?
[58:54.750 --> 58:57.630]  You had your family, they were running around.
[58:57.910 --> 59:00.770]  Trying to stop you from going down.
[59:00.870 --> 59:04.550]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[59:06.410 --> 59:10.710]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[59:12.130 --> 59:16.870]  Yes, it's you that I'm talking to.
[59:24.470 --> 59:29.150]  Yes, it's you, you, you that I'm talking to.
[59:30.670 --> 59:35.330]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[59:39.180 --> 59:41.140]  Woo, all right.
[59:41.140 --> 59:44.780]  You're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
[59:44.780 --> 59:46.300]  And guess what?
[59:46.460 --> 59:47.300]  We are back.
[59:47.300 --> 59:48.080]  That's right.