[00:00.000 --> 00:01.720]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:22.610 --> 01:23.730]  And good evening.
[01:23.850 --> 01:25.070]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:25.890 --> 01:27.870]  This is Red Act here, sitting in for a manual.
[01:27.870 --> 01:29.950]  I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
[01:30.230 --> 01:30.730]  Hi there.
[01:31.190 --> 01:33.390]  By Redbird, sorry.
[01:33.570 --> 01:34.050]  Good evening.
[01:34.230 --> 01:34.610]  Arseny.
[01:34.830 --> 01:35.130]  Hi.
[01:35.510 --> 01:36.150]  And Walter.
[01:36.490 --> 01:36.670]  Hey.
[01:36.930 --> 01:38.790]  And on the phone we have Bernie S.
[01:38.930 --> 01:39.730]  in Philadelphia.
[01:40.470 --> 01:41.610]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[01:41.970 --> 01:46.010]  You'll notice that one person that we don't have, who we always have, is Emanuel.
[01:47.090 --> 01:52.090]  As the listeners know, he was traveling all around the world, kept going east.
[01:52.950 --> 01:53.950]  So he went too far?
[01:53.950 --> 02:00.030]  He was in Long Island, and you know, as people know, he does another show on Long Island.
[02:00.170 --> 02:05.690]  And apparently, all this going east, he couldn't come back west for tonight's show.
[02:05.690 --> 02:11.090]  So I'm sure he will be back next time to explain what that's all about.
[02:12.770 --> 02:17.610]  Next time will not be next week or the week after, but the week after that.
[02:18.650 --> 02:25.630]  WBAI is in fundraising mode, as you know, and so we'll be talking a little bit about that throughout the show.
[02:26.530 --> 02:29.770]  And so we encourage you to pledge.
[02:30.610 --> 02:32.830]  Let's start with a news story.
[02:33.490 --> 02:36.590]  This news story comes from Wilmington.
[02:36.930 --> 02:40.130]  The Delaware Supreme Court made a good decision.
[02:40.130 --> 02:45.870]  I think they declined to unmask a blogger, as the headline in the Times put it.
[02:47.050 --> 03:00.830]  The Delaware Supreme Court has ruled that if an elected official claims he has been defamed by an anonymous blogger, he cannot use a lawsuit to unmask the writer unless he has substantial evidence to prove his claim.
[03:00.830 --> 03:08.070]  So what happened is this person wrote on the internet something really only slightly nasty.
[03:08.310 --> 03:17.730]  He has an obvious mental deterioration about the mayor of this, sorry, a councilman in Smyrna, Delaware.
[03:18.470 --> 03:25.350]  And he sued this councilman in Smyrna to have the, to find out who it was.
[03:25.350 --> 03:30.570]  And this person anonymously put in a petition saying, no, don't say who I am.
[03:30.970 --> 03:37.090]  And the Delaware Supreme Court agrees that the right to free speech holds, even on the internet.
[03:37.430 --> 03:39.110]  So a bit of good news out of Delaware.
[03:39.410 --> 03:40.590]  This is a state court decision?
[03:40.830 --> 03:42.810]  Yes, it's the Delaware Supreme Court.
[03:43.190 --> 03:43.490]  Ah.
[03:44.110 --> 03:45.610]  Well, that's good anywhere in Delaware.
[03:46.770 --> 03:50.810]  So if you're, uh, want to criticize politicians, Delaware's the place to do it.
[03:52.950 --> 03:55.270]  Uh, any, uh, any further news?
[03:56.930 --> 04:00.990]  Well, there's the big story around New York and, uh, or, or lack thereof.
[04:02.350 --> 04:12.550]  Let's get to that, uh, you, you mean the story that I have that New York officials are increasing security on city subways after word of a credible security threat.
[04:12.730 --> 04:14.250]  That's from October 6th.
[04:14.870 --> 04:16.130]  No, that's not the story.
[04:17.050 --> 04:18.890]  I'm reading it right here in the Wall Street Journal.
[04:19.170 --> 04:20.530]  Oh, well, it must be true.
[04:22.270 --> 04:25.210]  Well, they were quoted, that's a quote, credible threat.
[04:25.210 --> 04:26.510]  And who was quoted as saying that?
[04:27.750 --> 04:28.430]  I don't know.
[04:28.710 --> 04:30.030]  Representative Peter King.
[04:30.530 --> 04:33.550]  Ah, well, maybe they shouldn't quote him anymore.
[04:34.230 --> 04:41.330]  Newsday reported that the threat was said to be timed to the Jewish high holidays and the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
[04:41.650 --> 04:43.070]  What, this sounds very credible.
[04:44.450 --> 04:54.750]  Well, sure, anybody can make up a convincing lie, uh, especially when there's an eager, eager audience that wants to hear it, but, so what's the story on this story?
[04:56.350 --> 04:57.410]  Why don't you tell us?
[04:58.350 --> 05:04.150]  Well, I think, uh, many of our listeners have already heard that, uh, the, uh, the U.S.
[05:04.230 --> 05:16.450]  government has admitted that this was a hoax, um, perpetrated by one of their less than reliable informants, although he has apparently been reliable about half the time with other things.
[05:16.910 --> 05:21.070]  But, uh, they did some investigation, uh, in Iraq.
[05:21.250 --> 05:22.570]  This was an Iraqi informant.
[05:23.110 --> 05:36.070]  Um, and the three people he, this informant identified, uh, were given lie detector tests and, uh, and, uh, uh, had no, uh, no access to anyone in New York or forged documents or anything.
[05:36.330 --> 05:43.490]  And, uh, so, uh, I believe it was a defense intelligence agency decided that this was, uh, not credible at all.
[05:44.130 --> 05:48.270]  But, uh, this is what you get when you give raw intelligence to politicians.
[05:49.290 --> 05:56.070]  Uh, raw intelligence is stuff that hasn't been, uh, vetted or, or cleared as, as having any reliability.
[05:56.630 --> 06:03.850]  And, uh, apparently that got to Bloomberg and, uh, he started, uh, going on a, what would you call it?
[06:04.790 --> 06:11.550]  I, I mean, I think Bloomberg, uh, may have even known that this was all a bunch of, uh, nonsense.
[06:11.910 --> 06:17.270]  But, uh, as people may know, uh, Bloomberg is running for re-election in a little bit less than a month.
[06:17.350 --> 06:20.830]  And I think he wanted to appear, uh, appear strong.
[06:21.070 --> 06:22.410]  I mean, it worked for Bush.
[06:22.670 --> 06:22.910]  Uh.
[06:22.910 --> 06:24.070]  Uh, he did.
[06:24.170 --> 06:25.990]  He did look, he did look strong on television.
[06:25.990 --> 06:28.350]  I heard him, uh, make some comment about it.
[06:28.470 --> 06:33.170]  It's easy for some analysts in Washington to, to, uh, uh, look at data.
[06:33.510 --> 06:41.430]  But, uh, when you're here in New York and have to protect, uh, real lives, um, you've got to take charge or something to that effect.
[06:41.610 --> 06:42.930]  And look, he looks successful.
[06:43.090 --> 06:45.090]  There was no bombing of the subway this weekend.
[06:45.190 --> 06:45.450]  Yes.
[06:45.590 --> 06:46.630]  He is a very good mayor.
[06:46.830 --> 06:47.970]  In fact, you should vote for him.
[06:48.850 --> 06:51.230]  Well, thank you, uh, thank you, Mayor Bloomberg.
[06:51.230 --> 06:55.350]  But, uh, it's very, uh, very strange.
[06:56.230 --> 07:04.230]  And at the expense of, uh, this, this, uh, this fear-mongering was at the expense of, uh, I wonder how many people's constitutional rights.
[07:05.730 --> 07:07.590]  Uh, a lot of people.
[07:07.730 --> 07:13.630]  We have, I have this, uh, know your rights from the, uh, New York Civil Liberties Union.
[07:13.630 --> 07:23.530]  And they have on their website, uh, this kind of, uh, interesting contrast between the stated search policy and, uh, what your rights actually are.
[07:24.710 --> 07:33.630]  And, uh, you know, the stated search policy is that bags will be searched on the subways, on commuter trains, and possibly on buses and ferries.
[07:33.890 --> 07:38.870]  Bags will be searched before people go through the turnstile or on the platform boarding the train.
[07:39.490 --> 07:48.310]  And, uh, the NYCLU wants you to know that it is illegal for the police to search your bags without individualized suspicion that you are involved in criminal activity.
[07:48.910 --> 07:50.230]  It's called probable cause.
[07:50.830 --> 07:55.050]  And, uh, it's dying a very slow, painful death.
[07:55.270 --> 07:56.070]  Probable cause.
[07:56.170 --> 08:02.550]  Now, the problem is if they search you on the platform as opposed to before you enter the subway, you have no chance to say you want to leave without losing your fare.
[08:02.970 --> 08:04.910]  They seem not to be doing that.
[08:05.090 --> 08:06.050]  I haven't seen it done.
[08:06.550 --> 08:08.690]  I'm sure you've seen more than I have, though.
[08:08.770 --> 08:24.970]  What I haven't actually seen is all that much searching of late, uh, there was this very misleadingly worded, uh, release from the police department that got picked up by the major papers where they said there were going to be police in every station due to this heightened terror alert.
[08:25.630 --> 08:31.550]  Uh, and if you didn't read it carefully, you would think that they were going to be searching people in every station.
[08:31.550 --> 08:36.950]  Whereas in, in many stations, all they were doing was just kind of standing around looking tough and not searching anyone.
[08:37.430 --> 08:38.950]  Did anyone here get searched?
[08:39.110 --> 08:42.430]  I didn't get searched or, you know, have any problem getting on the subway.
[08:43.190 --> 08:48.090]  No, I, I haven't, uh, I haven't even seen them really searching people, uh, in quite some time.
[08:48.550 --> 08:54.530]  There were a lot of photo ops, I think, uh, that I saw on television of people, people's, uh, bags being searched.
[08:54.710 --> 09:00.890]  But, um, I wonder if those were just done for the camera or to intimidate people or wonder how much searching was actually happening.
[09:01.210 --> 09:04.890]  I mean, I'm sure, uh, some was, but...
[09:05.570 --> 09:12.890]  I mean, as we've pointed out time and time again that these searches will not catch, uh, a terrorist with half a brain.
[09:14.030 --> 09:19.410]  I did see a lot of, uh, you know, police cars in front of large stations, you know, with their lights flashing.
[09:19.630 --> 09:22.450]  So it was a big, uh, show, at least.
[09:22.750 --> 09:23.910]  That'll stop the terrorists.
[09:25.010 --> 09:27.910]  Maybe these terrorists are, like, afraid of light or something.
[09:28.110 --> 09:28.570]  What's the word?
[09:28.570 --> 09:31.690]  They could be epileptic, and then they could just have seizures right in the street.
[09:33.310 --> 09:35.270]  Anything is, uh, possible.
[09:36.790 --> 09:38.450]  Um, I do...
[09:38.450 --> 09:44.150]  We did mention at the top of the hour that this is a, uh, fundraising week for WBAI.
[09:44.470 --> 09:50.790]  Uh, as the regular listeners know, we do this every so often to really keep this place going.
[09:51.050 --> 09:53.770]  Uh, it's all, uh, supported by contributions.
[09:53.770 --> 09:56.550]  We don't get any, uh, big government funding.
[09:56.550 --> 09:58.750]  Uh, we don't take advertising.
[09:59.210 --> 10:08.830]  Uh, so it's really the, the calls of the people, uh, like our listeners who really help us keep on the air and keep all the other valuable programs on the station on the air.
[10:09.130 --> 10:15.490]  Uh, the number to call to pledge is, uh, 212-209-2950.
[10:15.970 --> 10:20.010]  That's, of course, country code one, if you're calling from outside of the country.
[10:20.330 --> 10:25.090]  The, uh, the people in the tally room always really like it when we get calls from outside the country.
[10:25.090 --> 10:29.130]  Uh, so again, the number is 212-209-2950.
[10:29.670 --> 10:33.390]  Uh, and we have, uh, three sort of levels of premium available.
[10:33.890 --> 10:39.890]  Uh, really, everyone who pledges really supports keeping this show on the air and keeping the station on the air.
[10:39.970 --> 10:42.850]  And that's really the primary reason for pledging.
[10:42.970 --> 10:44.850]  But we also like to thank you for your pledge.
[10:45.030 --> 10:46.530]  And so we give you these gifts.
[10:46.830 --> 11:03.690]  Uh, anyone who pledges $25 or more gets in addition to membership in the station, which allows them to, uh, vote in the elections for the station board, they get a, uh, a smashing off-the-hook t-shirt, uh, which is, uh, I guess no one here is wearing one right now.
[11:04.370 --> 11:06.210]  Uh, it's, it's black.
[11:06.630 --> 11:07.550]  It's available anywhere else.
[11:07.730 --> 11:09.210]  No, you can't buy this online.
[11:09.210 --> 11:12.470]  You can't buy it anywhere except by calling us, uh, to pledge.
[11:13.490 --> 11:17.050]  Um, so that's really for everyone who pledges $25 and up.
[11:17.290 --> 11:27.890]  If you pledge $50, in addition to getting that t-shirt, you'll get a $2,600 sweatshirt, and the $2,600 sweatshirt, uh, is being worn by three people in this room right now.
[11:28.170 --> 11:30.090]  That's how great a shirt it is.
[11:30.290 --> 11:32.190]  It's great for, uh, days like this.
[11:32.470 --> 11:35.070]  You know, it protected, uh, me from the cold and the rain.
[11:36.910 --> 11:37.710]  And, uh...
[11:37.710 --> 11:38.650]  It's a hoodie, isn't it?
[11:38.770 --> 11:39.190]  It's a hoodie.
[11:39.650 --> 11:41.090]  It's a very attractive hoodie.
[11:41.310 --> 11:41.950]  It's very stylish.
[11:42.690 --> 11:51.590]  It has a, like, it has a special kind of, uh, pass-through pocket in the middle, in the front that you can, uh, conceal objects in and run your hands through.
[11:51.730 --> 11:52.170]  It's pretty good.
[11:52.170 --> 12:03.490]  It says $2,600 on the front, and on the back is this kind of very intimidating government seal-type logo, which I believe, uh, you, Bernie S, have actually used on occasion to intimidate people.
[12:03.730 --> 12:05.490]  Actually, that was honestly not my intent.
[12:05.650 --> 12:14.170]  It was just a chilly day, and it just turned out we were looking for a pirate radio station, and the people who saw it, uh, at the station, uh, might have thought we were federal...
[12:15.530 --> 12:15.930]  federales.
[12:16.230 --> 12:19.250]  So, um, but honestly, that was not my intent to intimidate anyone.
[12:19.470 --> 12:20.170]  It was unintended.
[12:20.710 --> 12:21.030]  Unintended.
[12:21.370 --> 12:23.590]  So even unintended, you can intimidate people.
[12:23.870 --> 12:24.270]  But it, but it worked.
[12:24.430 --> 12:29.110]  I mean, they, they moved the station to another frequency and, uh, stopped interfering with, uh, WUSB.
[12:29.330 --> 12:32.470]  So that was, uh, that was our goal, and, uh, they were very nice about it.
[12:33.010 --> 12:33.430]  All right.
[12:33.930 --> 12:40.490]  And if you pledge, uh, so that's for your pledge of $50 or more, you can get this very, uh, very useful in many ways sweatshirt.
[12:40.850 --> 12:41.410]  Powerful.
[12:41.730 --> 12:42.850]  Powerful sweatshirt.
[12:43.030 --> 12:52.110]  And if you pledge $75, you will get, uh, an, a DVD-ROM, uh, with all the off-the-hook shows ever in MP3 format.
[12:52.330 --> 12:57.570]  And this is a new edition, uh, which will include the shows through the end of 2005.
[12:57.570 --> 13:00.050]  So you won't get it before the end of the year.
[13:00.150 --> 13:07.130]  But, uh, when you do get it, it will have every show ever from the, the very first shows, uh, through the end of 2005.
[13:07.390 --> 13:13.570]  And this is the sort of, uh, resource that, uh, we can make available here.
[13:13.870 --> 13:28.410]  Because, uh, you know, computer technology, as we cover, just keeps, uh, expanding and expanding until the point where we can store so much audio on this disc that you, you really would need a lot of time to listen to it all.
[13:28.870 --> 13:30.550]  Stick that in your MP3 player.
[13:31.930 --> 13:34.170]  It's actually two discs, two DVDs.
[13:34.270 --> 13:34.970]  Two DVDs.
[13:35.090 --> 13:37.510]  So you get, not one, but two.
[13:39.110 --> 13:40.090]  Wow, I didn't know that.
[13:40.290 --> 13:42.890]  I thought they had the technology to put it on one DVD now.
[13:43.190 --> 13:44.530]  No, I think we're doing two this time.
[13:44.710 --> 13:45.090]  Oh, okay.
[13:45.170 --> 13:49.250]  So much, it's so much data, it requires two DVD ROMs to fit on.
[13:49.650 --> 13:50.570]  That's really something.
[13:51.350 --> 13:53.850]  Uh, and you can really hear the, the history of the show.
[13:53.990 --> 14:00.030]  You can hear, uh, Bernie asks a lot of your, uh, experiences chronicled on WBAI.
[14:00.410 --> 14:01.350]  You can hear...
[14:01.350 --> 14:01.870]  It's a theme.
[14:02.030 --> 14:03.250]  We have different people's tours.
[14:03.250 --> 14:12.390]  I mean, whether someone is touring the world or touring the, uh, federal prison systems or touring whatever, um, touring hacker conferences in different places.
[14:12.630 --> 14:18.730]  Um, it's just sort of a, uh, an amazing log of, uh, of information.
[14:18.730 --> 14:21.210]  It's, uh, really fun to go back and listen to.
[14:21.410 --> 14:25.330]  And I know we have a lot of new listeners from this whole, uh, podcasting craze.
[14:25.970 --> 14:30.290]  So, you probably haven't heard some of the earlier shows yet, if you're new to the show.
[14:30.290 --> 14:33.590]  So, and this is your chance to really get them all on one disc.
[14:35.590 --> 14:36.030]  It's...
[14:36.030 --> 14:51.470]  And to see where we, where we, it's, you know, it's kind of hard to get a perspective of where we are unless you look at where we've been with technology and politics and culture and how all these things are interconnected and the law and, uh, different legal battles and successes and failures.
[14:51.470 --> 14:59.390]  Um, unless you can look back a few years and see, uh, see, see this, it's, uh, it's difficult to, to see the grand picture.
[14:59.590 --> 15:07.630]  So it's really useful to look back and listen to what was going on a few years ago, five years, 10 years, 15 or more.
[15:07.690 --> 15:08.590]  How far does this go back?
[15:08.970 --> 15:10.910]  I'm not sure exactly, but it's pretty far.
[15:13.930 --> 15:14.630]  Good stuff.
[15:15.210 --> 15:19.910]  Uh, so again, the number to call is 212-209-2950.
[15:20.530 --> 15:25.630]  And, uh, we have no calls on the line at the moment, which is really, uh, not good.
[15:26.730 --> 15:30.950]  So please call today, uh, 212-209-2950.
[15:31.590 --> 15:34.970]  Again, uh, every pledge, 25 and up, gets the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[15:35.650 --> 15:40.670]  Uh, $50 gets the very useful, uh, $2,600 sweatshirt.
[15:40.890 --> 15:45.510]  And $75 gets you the Off the Hook DVD-ROM with every show ever.
[15:46.130 --> 15:55.530]  And a lot of times, we always get email, uh, after the, after we do these shows, from people who say, you know, I really want these premiums, can I still get it?
[15:55.570 --> 15:57.110]  And the answer is, no, you can't.
[15:57.430 --> 16:06.230]  This is the only, this hour between 7 and 8 o'clock Eastern Time, uh, is the only time you, you can call up and get the Off the Hook premiums.
[16:06.270 --> 16:10.830]  You can still pledge online if you want to support the station, uh, which we of course encourage you to do.
[16:11.290 --> 16:20.050]  But unless you call today, 212-209-2950, you will not be able to get these premiums, and it will really be, uh, a loss.
[16:23.640 --> 16:26.160]  Speaking of losses, I want to mention, uh, a loss tonight.
[16:26.160 --> 16:42.120]  This is kind of sad, but, uh, uh, uh, an ACLU lawyer here in Philadelphia, uh, who's actually the direct, legal director here, uh, at the Philadelphia ACLU office, uh, Stephan Presser, has been, uh, working, uh, hard for many years for, uh, civil rights.
[16:42.580 --> 16:56.520]  And, uh, he is the lawyer who's largely responsible for the defeat of the, uh, Communications Decency Act, uh, and its successor, which, uh, basically, uh, was to outlaw, uh, uh, indecency on the net.
[16:56.600 --> 16:59.800]  The problem is that the government chose not to define the word indecency.
[16:59.960 --> 17:08.680]  So basically anything that someone didn't like on the internet could be, uh, ruled, uh, a criminal offense to, uh, to post.
[17:09.140 --> 17:13.660]  Um, fortunately, Stephan Presser was successful in, uh, getting that law struck down.
[17:13.940 --> 17:32.970]  He was also largely responsible for, uh, keeping a, uh, a low-power FM station here in Philadelphia, radio mutiny, uh, several years ago on the air through five separate FCC visits, uh, up until the last one where the FCC brought armed federal marshals to shut down this community FM station,
[17:33.160 --> 17:35.470]  which was well-loved here in Philadelphia.
[17:35.640 --> 17:40.180]  That must have been quite a sight, armed federal marshals at one of these sort of small radio stations.
[17:40.180 --> 17:44.280]  It was actually fortunate and, and I think planned by the FCC.
[17:44.820 --> 17:52.800]  The chief of enforcement from the FCC came up from Washington himself with armed federal marshals and timed it when nobody would be at the station, um, early that evening.
[17:52.990 --> 17:55.460]  I don't think they wanted a confrontation because it could have been ugly.
[17:55.700 --> 18:00.580]  So they came, uh, before, uh, we were to go on the air that night or whoever was going to go on the air that night.
[18:01.750 --> 18:04.700]  And no one we know would be involved in illegal activity.
[18:05.780 --> 18:12.120]  And, uh, that, uh, all the, uh, all the equipment was, uh, ripped out and the antenna was, uh, brought down.
[18:12.270 --> 18:21.790]  And, uh, it was a, it was a sad day, but, uh, the station got a lot of important messages out and Stefan Presser was largely responsible for keeping that station on the air and for doing a lot of other important things in Philadelphia.
[18:21.860 --> 18:33.050]  So I'd just like to, uh, uh, mention that, uh, uh, uh, he's not no longer with us, but, uh, we hope that other, uh, other people carry on his mission because, uh, he did a lot of important work.
[18:34.140 --> 18:34.920]  All right.
[18:35.620 --> 18:40.880]  Um, again, the number to call the pledge is 212-209-2950.
[18:41.530 --> 18:49.620]  Uh, another story in the news, this is from, uh, Boston, Massachusetts, where the lawmakers there are debating a cell phone rights bill.
[18:49.790 --> 18:50.470]  What do you think of that?
[18:51.200 --> 18:51.860]  Good idea.
[18:52.200 --> 18:52.770]  Good idea.
[18:53.660 --> 19:03.880]  Uh, the first in the nation cell phone bill of rights is up for debate today on Beacon Hill, which is where the Massachusetts legislature meets, uh, today being October 4th, when this story was written.
[19:04.120 --> 19:11.620]  The bill would address common cell phone annoyances by fixing dead zones, shortening contracts to one year, and offering bills that customers can understand.
[19:11.990 --> 19:16.140]  Senate sponsor Jarrett Barrios calls it a lemon law for cell phones.
[19:16.440 --> 19:21.460]  He says people spend so much on cell phones that it's only fair that people know what to expect from their service.
[19:21.880 --> 19:28.180]  House sponsor David Linsky says that the bill simply offers protection similar to those provided by the landline industry.
[19:28.810 --> 19:31.360]  Industry sponsors say they'll fight the bill.
[19:31.530 --> 19:38.080]  They say the regulation isn't necessary because the industry is so competitive, it has to adjust to community, consumer demands.
[19:38.470 --> 19:40.730]  They also... Go ahead.
[19:41.080 --> 19:41.810]  It hasn't.
[19:41.900 --> 19:43.860]  The industry has not adjusted to consumer demands.
[19:44.140 --> 19:57.620]  I think almost everybody would demand, uh, that they not be charged, uh, extra fees for, for items that were not included in, uh, their monthly, uh, monthly quoted bill.
[19:57.770 --> 20:05.100]  And there's, and I think a large percentage of every, you know, a big chunk of everybody's bill, if you look at the itemization, uh, is not what they were promised they would pay each month.
[20:05.340 --> 20:10.960]  And the, uh, these cell phone companies are simply passing on things like taxes that they have to pay.
[20:11.250 --> 20:16.470]  And it's all these pass-through charges that were, are not revealed to you when you sign a contract.
[20:16.470 --> 20:18.140]  And it's, uh, very unfair.
[20:18.140 --> 20:23.310]  And I think they should be wrapped into the monthly, uh, charge that you're quoted.
[20:23.730 --> 20:26.860]  Um, but that would be included in this cell phone bill of rights.
[20:26.990 --> 20:32.120]  Unfortunately, this is just being proposed in Massachusetts, but I'd like to see some federal legislation along these lines.
[20:32.400 --> 20:40.990]  What the industry sponsors, I guess, are saying is that some companies will drop nationwide plans for Massachusetts consumers if the bill passes.
[20:41.440 --> 20:44.230]  That I would really be kind of amused to see.
[20:44.960 --> 20:49.640]  Uh, it seems the opposite of the industry responding to consumer demands.
[20:49.770 --> 21:00.790]  If whole states suddenly couldn't get cell phones, it seems like it would create a great market for one company that could comply with these laws, which are really pretty reasonable to, to continue to do business in there.
[21:01.180 --> 21:06.200]  Threatening consumers is not actually meeting their demands, in my opinion, but whatever.
[21:08.250 --> 21:10.790]  Uh, so that is that story.
[21:11.510 --> 21:23.880]  Um, I think we'll, we'll go in a minute to this, uh, very special phone call that we can make to a very remote location, more remote, I guess, than anywhere that, uh, was on Emmanuel's tour.
[21:24.420 --> 21:26.750]  So let's, uh, set that phone call up.
[21:27.120 --> 21:31.160]  And while we do, we just want to remind you that the pledge lines are open.
[21:31.310 --> 21:34.360]  It's 212-209-2950.
[21:34.990 --> 21:39.250]  Again, the premiums are for 25 and up, the off the hook t-shirt.
[21:39.810 --> 21:44.310]  Uh, for $50, you get the very, very useful 2600 sweatshirt.
[21:44.900 --> 21:52.700]  And for $75, you get the off the hook DVD ROM, the new edition, which will go through the end of 2005.
[21:53.340 --> 22:02.220]  Uh, one other issue we should cover is we, we often get emails when we do these pledge drives from people who pledged at a previous time, uh, to say they haven't got their premium yet.
[22:02.340 --> 22:03.600]  Please email us about it.
[22:03.840 --> 22:09.460]  O-T-H at 2600.com, which is where you can also email if you have any comments about the show.
[22:10.540 --> 22:15.140]  And if you, uh, if you didn't get it, we will look into it.
[22:15.240 --> 22:16.740]  Sometimes things take a bit of time.
[22:16.900 --> 22:18.280]  It's a non-profit organization.
[22:18.980 --> 22:24.080]  Sometimes, uh, things get lost in the shuffle, but we will look into it and you will get your premiums.
[22:24.340 --> 22:27.080]  Please let us know and we'll make sure to take care of that.
[22:27.360 --> 22:33.290]  Of course, this only goes if you did actually pay your pledge, but, uh, our listeners are mostly honest people.
[22:34.050 --> 22:37.640]  So I think we have our special guest on the line with us.
[22:38.000 --> 22:39.120]  Uh, is this Christian?
[22:40.280 --> 22:41.080]  Yes, hello.
[22:41.310 --> 22:41.640]  Hello.
[22:41.940 --> 22:42.960]  Where are you, Christian?
[22:44.080 --> 22:55.920]  I am, uh, sitting in a nine foot by eleven foot room called the Black Box, uh, which is the only indoor spot to sit down and have a cigarette and a drink at the South Pole.
[22:55.920 --> 22:56.960]  The South Pole?
[22:57.500 --> 22:59.340]  The actual South Pole.
[23:00.000 --> 23:00.920]  Not just Antarctica.
[23:00.920 --> 23:01.340]  The only one.
[23:02.640 --> 23:03.740]  No, 90 degrees south.
[23:04.380 --> 23:04.900]  Wow.
[23:05.180 --> 23:06.780]  So what brings you to Antarctica?
[23:08.760 --> 23:13.420]  Um, I'm down here, uh, taking care of one of the science experiments on station for the year.
[23:13.900 --> 23:16.780]  Um, we're, uh, wrapping up a winter right about now.
[23:16.940 --> 23:21.960]  Expecting a first flight of the year in about eight days or so.
[23:22.480 --> 23:23.550]  The weather holds up.
[23:23.760 --> 23:26.260]  Maybe we'll be able to get people in and get us out of here.
[23:26.700 --> 23:32.700]  But, uh, pretty much just, you know, sitting down and, uh, taking care of electronics and computers.
[23:34.080 --> 23:36.620]  How are you able to communicate with us, Christian?
[23:38.020 --> 23:39.900]  Um, excuse me.
[23:40.640 --> 23:50.620]  Um, our communications are limited to about a little under twelve hours a day, uh, going over three, um, actually three NASA leftover satellites.
[23:51.580 --> 23:56.720]  Um, uh, we have Marisat 2, TDRS 1, and GOES 3.
[23:57.020 --> 24:03.180]  Um, they've either been already decommissioned, uh, as of at least 10, 15 years ago.
[24:03.960 --> 24:10.020]  Um, or their, their propellant is either completely expired or running out.
[24:10.580 --> 24:14.120]  So, uh, it's all, it's all satellite-based.
[24:14.520 --> 24:16.440]  Um, we also have iridium phones on station.
[24:16.440 --> 24:19.120]  Uh, the iridium coverage down here is actually pretty good.
[24:19.790 --> 24:20.200]  Um.
[24:20.310 --> 24:27.380]  I hope it's, uh, it's interesting because we, uh, we were speaking with Emmanuel for the past several weeks, uh, on his iridium phone from different parts of the world.
[24:27.780 --> 24:32.620]  And, uh, you sound remarkably better than any of, uh, his calls.
[24:32.790 --> 24:38.740]  I think, uh, the, the, the satellites, uh, or the, the, the satellite phones, the Marisat, or whatever.
[24:38.920 --> 24:40.160]  What satellite are you on right now?
[24:41.100 --> 24:47.040]  Uh, right now I think it's, we have an overlap at the moment of, uh, uh, teacher Samarasat.
[24:48.100 --> 24:59.460]  Because, uh, whatever, uh, whatever phone and, uh, band, uh, codec and bandwidth you're, you're permitted for this call, uh, uh, sounds, uh, almost as clear as a landline.
[24:59.600 --> 25:00.040]  It's very good.
[25:01.180 --> 25:02.660]  Uh, well, that's good to hear.
[25:03.050 --> 25:04.880]  When we called you at the moment...
[25:04.880 --> 25:05.500]  Go ahead.
[25:06.640 --> 25:06.880]  Sorry.
[25:06.980 --> 25:12.500]  At the moment, um, uh, this is a voice over IP connection, um, which is quite nice.
[25:13.180 --> 25:19.040]  Uh, each satellite, uh, you know, assuming that, um, you know, visibility and everything is nice to them.
[25:19.360 --> 25:23.680]  Um, each satellite affords just about a full T1, uh, both ways.
[25:24.290 --> 25:35.100]  Uh, so the voice over IP connections, assuming that there isn't too much network congestion, you know, people grabbing stuff off the internet and stuff like that, uh, voice over IP is actually pretty nice down here.
[25:35.100 --> 25:35.100]  Yeah.
[25:36.700 --> 25:38.520]  How many people are down there with you?
[25:39.810 --> 25:45.000]  Uh, there are 85 other winter rovers for this year, which is, uh, to date the largest winter over population.
[25:45.640 --> 25:50.040]  And usually it's somewhere in the, uh, usually somewhere in like the mid-50s or mid-40s.
[25:50.960 --> 25:53.680]  And what's the window of opportunity to, to come and go?
[25:54.620 --> 25:56.840]  And what methods of transportation do you use?
[25:57.920 --> 26:05.240]  Oh, um, all the flights down here are, uh, uh, um, via LC-130s, which is basically C-130s on skis.
[26:05.960 --> 26:08.600]  Um, flights occur during the summer.
[26:08.760 --> 26:09.680]  Our seasons are reversed.
[26:09.810 --> 26:11.310]  We go by New Zealand seasons.
[26:11.900 --> 26:16.140]  So, uh, summer has actually, is actually almost beginning right now.
[26:16.920 --> 26:21.840]  Um, summer is, summer is kind of weird because the sun's up 24-7.
[26:22.200 --> 26:24.180]  There's one sunrise, one sunset here.
[26:24.720 --> 26:29.220]  So, uh, you know, the sun, while the sun is up, obviously, pilots have enough visibility.
[26:29.220 --> 26:30.120]  It's a little warmer.
[26:30.720 --> 26:34.440]  Um, the weather's a little nicer for them to be able to come in and, you know, leave.
[26:35.020 --> 26:39.200]  But, uh, usually around March is when the station closes for the year.
[26:39.290 --> 26:45.240]  And from March until either late October, early November, uh, there's no in or out, no transportation at all.
[26:45.920 --> 26:49.700]  How long has, uh, IP connectivity been, uh, available there?
[26:50.080 --> 26:52.360]  And, uh, were you there before it was available?
[26:52.360 --> 26:54.400]  And what did people do with their time before then?
[26:56.540 --> 26:59.580]  Uh, we've had IP connectivity here.
[26:59.760 --> 27:08.720]  My understanding is probably at least, I don't know, I'd figure at least five, maybe, uh, maybe a little, maybe a couple more years than that.
[27:09.620 --> 27:16.400]  Um, originally, uh, the, the satellites that are used for down and that, you know, are available for use down here, they come and go.
[27:16.640 --> 27:17.980]  Some of them kind of just die.
[27:19.120 --> 27:23.680]  Um, those three right now is, uh, pretty much dying.
[27:24.020 --> 27:29.550]  Um, sometimes it's unbearably, you know, it's unbearable to use because it, you just, we just can't align it.
[27:29.640 --> 27:31.160]  We're pretty much at the mercy wherever it is.
[27:31.960 --> 27:34.020]  Uh, but it is getting better, it seems.
[27:34.280 --> 27:39.960]  Um, I've heard horror stories from a couple of years ago, uh, about what IP connectivity was like then.
[27:40.580 --> 27:47.550]  Um, before there was any IP connectivity, it was pretty much, uh, uh, ham radio down here.
[27:48.160 --> 27:48.860]  That was it.
[27:49.040 --> 27:54.360]  Other than that, um, there are, there's an unbelievable amount of, uh, beta tapes down here.
[27:55.080 --> 27:58.040]  Uh, it's pretty cool to catch some movies on beta here.
[27:58.340 --> 28:02.380]  Um, a lot of movies, a lot of books, there's a pretty good library down here too.
[28:02.920 --> 28:09.120]  Um, but other than that, you know, I pretty much just sit down and either work or pass the time when you're not working.
[28:09.440 --> 28:11.400]  What, what's the size of the whole complex?
[28:11.400 --> 28:13.160]  And also, what do you use for power?
[28:13.280 --> 28:16.810]  Do you just use generator, gas generators or what's, what's the setup for that?
[28:17.100 --> 28:27.440]  Um, yeah, everything down here runs off of JP8, which is, uh, basically we have, uh, during the summer, there's a big rush not only to move cargo in, but more importantly, they move all the fuel in for the year.
[28:28.160 --> 28:31.460]  Um, everything down here stinks of diesel, literally everything.
[28:31.940 --> 28:33.980]  Um, that's the only smell down here too.
[28:34.200 --> 28:35.700]  You pretty much get used to it after a while.
[28:36.550 --> 28:44.940]  But, um, we have, uh, this contrasts, of course, with the notion of Antarctic has this kind of clean, pure place.
[28:47.480 --> 28:51.240]  Yeah, well, if you ever take a visit to McMurdo, McMurdo station is on the coast.
[28:51.440 --> 28:53.840]  Uh, everybody coming here has to pass due there.
[28:54.240 --> 28:59.340]  Uh, McMurdo, I, actually, actually, I think, uh, there are parts of Manhattan that the streets are cleaner than Mactown.
[29:00.500 --> 29:01.680]  Well, uh, well then.
[29:02.620 --> 29:03.600]  Do they use any special...
[29:03.600 --> 29:04.340]  But anyhow...
[29:04.760 --> 29:11.420]  Um, I'll ask, um, is there any special method you use to keep the diesel from, uh, not gelling up because it's so cold?
[29:13.020 --> 29:15.960]  I actually believe it or not, diesel, uh, diesel will not freeze.
[29:16.290 --> 29:17.500]  Yes, but it doesn't gel?
[29:17.500 --> 29:17.840]  It does.
[29:19.180 --> 29:20.160]  Uh, not really.
[29:20.720 --> 29:22.340]  Not really, which is really odd.
[29:23.040 --> 29:24.790]  Um, well, you would think that it would freeze.
[29:24.960 --> 29:25.960]  Everything else down here does.
[29:26.810 --> 29:30.100]  But, um, in storage, I think it does be become a little thicker.
[29:31.200 --> 29:44.360]  Um, but I'm pretty sure, I'm, I'm almost positive that as it's, as it's actually piped into the power plant, um, we have, uh, heat traces that run along all of the pipes for water and any liquids that move here that keep them warm.
[29:44.440 --> 29:49.860]  I'm, I'm almost positive there are heat traces that probably warm it up a bit before it's actually fed to the generators.
[29:51.620 --> 29:58.480]  What are some of the experiments, uh, you've been involved with and, and what are some of the more interesting ones that, uh, you've, uh, seen or heard about there?
[29:59.780 --> 30:06.980]  Well, um, there's, uh, we have a couple of seismic, seismic experiments here, um, which is interesting.
[30:07.180 --> 30:12.420]  I was just talking to the science tech for, uh, the seismic stuff, uh, the other day.
[30:12.980 --> 30:19.160]  And, um, she had gotten massive amounts of data about the, uh, the recent earthquake in India and Pakistan.
[30:19.790 --> 30:27.780]  Uh, and we were feeling, um, well, she was picking up, uh, aftershocks from it here, uh, good 24 to 36 hours later.
[30:28.940 --> 30:30.540]  Um, that's pretty interesting.
[30:31.660 --> 30:38.080]  Um, there are, most of them here, uh, are, uh, radio, um, radio experiments.
[30:38.720 --> 30:46.340]  Uh, this is actually a pretty good spot to observe, um, all types of cosmic stuff going on and whatnot.
[30:46.740 --> 30:48.680]  Uh, but it's not a good optical site.
[30:49.810 --> 30:53.810]  So she would think it would be, but yeah, for the most part.
[30:54.160 --> 31:07.860]  Uh, there's an experiment down here called Amanda, which is a neutrino telescope that has, um, a bunch of modules that are, uh, that are frozen in about a kilometer below the surface of the ice.
[31:07.880 --> 31:12.780]  And, uh, they pretty much use the earth as a filter to pick up neutrinos passing through it.
[31:13.920 --> 31:21.280]  Um, there's another one here, uh, astro, which is a submillimeter telescope, some submillimeter radio telescope.
[31:21.700 --> 31:23.460]  Um, a couple of smaller projects.
[31:26.600 --> 31:28.900]  Now you, I guess the sun is up now.
[31:30.600 --> 31:34.760]  I'm sorry, but the sun, you can see it now or maybe not inside.
[31:34.880 --> 31:37.220]  It came up, it came up about a month ago.
[31:37.660 --> 31:42.620]  And so before that you were in complete darkness for six months, yes, sir.
[31:43.200 --> 31:46.020]  That, that, I would imagine that would be kind of depressing, no?
[31:47.420 --> 31:53.840]  Um, actually, actually one thing I've, I've found here is if you have good people around, it's pretty nice.
[31:54.200 --> 32:05.740]  Uh, during the winter, I mean, sure, you know, the sun's down and, you know, because of a lack of vitamin D and whatnot, you're going to naturally try and become, you know, physically you're, you're more prone to depression.
[32:06.340 --> 32:14.220]  But, um, outside during the, during the winter, uh, there are tons of really nice bright aurora that you can see super clear.
[32:14.500 --> 32:17.900]  Sometimes they fill up, you know, probably about a half to three quarters of the sky.
[32:18.380 --> 32:21.180]  Um, the stars here are incredibly bright.
[32:21.600 --> 32:29.680]  You know, you, I've, I've never seen so many stars in my life at once, uh, to the point where you just see kind of patches of, they look like clouds.
[32:29.840 --> 32:31.140]  There's so many, they're so dense.
[32:32.140 --> 32:33.280]  The night's pretty nice.
[32:33.760 --> 32:34.310]  I think.
[32:34.310 --> 32:44.000]  Are there any, are there any web, are there any websites that, uh, that describe, uh, your station there and, uh, experiments and anything else about, uh, that?
[32:45.200 --> 32:45.980]  Oh, certainly.
[32:46.500 --> 32:58.640]  Um, you can Google a bunch and find out, you know, you'll get a good number of hits usually from, uh, from people who've either been down for the summer or for the winter, uh, that have put their experiences up and whatnot.
[32:58.960 --> 33:06.660]  There's one really good site, uh, southpolestation.com, which is run by a gentleman by the name of Bill Spindler, who he's wintering this year.
[33:07.600 --> 33:10.940]  Um, he, uh, he's a, he's a big history buff in this place.
[33:11.080 --> 33:13.540]  His first time down here, I think was in 76 or something.
[33:14.360 --> 33:15.940]  And this is his first year back.
[33:16.520 --> 33:26.040]  Uh, he has tons of photos, tons of, you know, um, uh, stories and stuff like that accounts from other winter overs, pretty much going back to the history.
[33:26.620 --> 33:34.420]  Um, you know, recounting the history of this place back to the very old station, which I remember correctly was established in the, the mid fifties or late fifties.
[33:35.520 --> 33:38.550]  Um, where else?
[33:39.600 --> 33:40.680]  USAP.gov.
[33:41.280 --> 33:42.860]  I believe that might be public.
[33:43.280 --> 33:47.100]  Um, that's the United, I'm sorry, USAP.gov.
[33:47.480 --> 33:49.420]  That's the United States and Arctic program.
[33:50.860 --> 33:55.700]  Uh, there's a, the agency that, uh, operates all of the stations here on the continent.
[33:56.880 --> 34:03.050]  Um, if anybody's looking for a job, uh, you can go to, well, you're looking for a job.
[34:03.860 --> 34:05.140]  You have one of two routes.
[34:05.260 --> 34:12.700]  You can either, um, go through Raytheon Polar Services Corporation, RPSC, uh, which I believe should be RPSC.com.
[34:13.440 --> 34:19.120]  Um, their jobs are listed on a site called Rayjobs, R-A-Y-J-O-B-S.com.
[34:19.920 --> 34:25.050]  Um, they handle most of the, you know, the operational logistics, the logistical stuff here.
[34:25.550 --> 34:33.820]  Um, a lot of trades people down here, uh, you know, obviously people working in the galley, cooks and dishwashers and stuff like that.
[34:34.540 --> 34:47.660]  Um, the other route is to try and find one of the projects that are operating down here, which are usually, um, are usually handled by universities in the States and, uh, try and get in touch with them.
[34:47.900 --> 34:55.200]  They had, you know, they send people down all the time, either on a research, uh, capacity or there's a project at the moment called IceCube, which is under construction.
[34:55.740 --> 34:58.200]  It'll be under construction for about the next seven or ten years.
[34:58.380 --> 35:01.080]  They need, you know, all types of people for that also.
[35:02.300 --> 35:13.080]  Um, you, I think probably from, from reading softpolestation.com, you can probably get a good idea of the projects that are operational down here and then link them to the universities that, uh, that operate them.
[35:13.260 --> 35:22.700]  The ones off the top of my head, uh, are, I believe, University of Delaware, Harvard, uh, University of Chicago, and, uh, University of Wisconsin.
[35:25.040 --> 35:25.640]  Wow.
[35:26.060 --> 35:26.580]  Thanks.
[35:28.060 --> 35:30.860]  Um, is there a way for tourists to go down there?
[35:33.660 --> 35:34.580]  Actually, yeah.
[35:34.940 --> 35:36.440]  Um, it's kind of difficult, though.
[35:37.540 --> 35:49.920]  Uh, you either, I think, I, I heard something over the summer about how, uh, for about $20,000 you can actually hop on a flight and come down here, stay for about an hour and then leave.
[35:52.140 --> 35:52.540]  Um...
[35:52.540 --> 35:53.500]  Expensive hour.
[35:54.960 --> 35:55.360]  Yeah.
[35:55.560 --> 35:56.100]  Pretty much.
[35:57.220 --> 36:01.060]  Um, most of the tourists that come here, believe it or not, get here on their own.
[36:01.460 --> 36:06.780]  Uh, they either ski across the continent, um, or they're part of an expedition that comes across the continent.
[36:07.380 --> 36:14.360]  Uh, there was somebody over the, over this past summer that I believe, if I remember correctly, uh, she skied across, or he, I can't remember.
[36:15.140 --> 36:20.400]  But, uh, the problem is if you come here as a tourist, they can't let you into the station, and, uh, they won't feed you.
[36:21.700 --> 36:23.320]  That's kind of mean after all that.
[36:23.580 --> 36:24.640]  What if you're really hungry?
[36:24.640 --> 36:25.100]  I think so.
[36:26.660 --> 36:31.540]  Uh, well, if you're almost, you know, if you're almost dying, I think they'll, they'll take care of you.
[36:31.780 --> 36:38.000]  But, um, I think the NSF has had a big push to try and discourage people from coming down here and just hanging out.
[36:38.260 --> 36:41.460]  I mean, not that many people would do it anyway, but...
[36:41.460 --> 36:42.060]  Hmm.
[36:42.340 --> 36:47.140]  Well, what, what kind of diplomatic, uh, boundaries, I guess, uh, are there in the South Pole?
[36:47.940 --> 36:50.220]  Is it, you can just pretty much go there?
[36:50.320 --> 36:51.860]  Is there like a border patrol or something?
[36:53.520 --> 37:01.360]  Um, well, in all honesty, if you can get here, um, there's plenty of space for you to wander around and nobody's really going to notice.
[37:02.260 --> 37:13.220]  Um, uh, the continent is ruled by, uh, a treaty called the Antarctic Treaty, which basically says that, uh, all the signatories agree that nobody can lay any claim to the land down here.
[37:13.760 --> 37:19.520]  So, at least, you know, various countries have their own, um, stations and whatnot around the continent.
[37:19.800 --> 37:23.080]  Um, they're not supposed to be sovereign territory of that country.
[37:23.260 --> 37:28.420]  So, technically, I would, I would assume that, you know, it's an open country.
[37:28.420 --> 37:32.720]  You can, you know, if you can get yourself down here and survive, I think survival is the harder part.
[37:33.400 --> 37:36.520]  Um, then, you know, you're free to do pretty much whatever you want here.
[37:38.280 --> 37:38.640]  Hmm.
[37:41.160 --> 37:41.600]  All right.
[37:42.120 --> 37:43.440]  Uh, anything else, uh, Bernie?
[37:45.020 --> 37:46.440]  I just wanted to thank Christian.
[37:47.440 --> 37:54.280]  Excuse me, I just wanted to thank Christian for, for, uh, for listening to the show and for, uh, letting us call you down there.
[37:54.280 --> 37:58.960]  And, um, it's really been amazing to hear, uh, hear about what goes on in the South Pole.
[37:59.280 --> 38:00.520]  We'll be checking out the websites.
[38:00.720 --> 38:01.560]  When are you coming back?
[38:02.780 --> 38:04.260]  Uh, I should be back.
[38:04.420 --> 38:09.580]  Actually, I should be back in, uh, the New York area, hopefully by the middle of November.
[38:11.040 --> 38:11.400]  Hmm.
[38:12.160 --> 38:13.820]  I've got a little more time to go down here.
[38:14.400 --> 38:17.320]  Give us a call again, uh, uh, when you get back.
[38:17.460 --> 38:19.020]  We'd like to hear, uh, how things went.
[38:20.360 --> 38:21.480]  Hey, no problem at all.
[38:21.660 --> 38:23.540]  I want to thank you guys too for putting on the show.
[38:23.680 --> 38:27.740]  I mean, I've been listening to the show for about 15 years now.
[38:27.860 --> 38:37.700]  And, you know, I had mentioned, and I think the first email I sent regarding this, I'd mentioned that, you know, it's been really nice to be able to grab the shows while I'm down here and actually still continue to listen to them.
[38:39.620 --> 38:40.140]  All right.
[38:40.260 --> 38:42.880]  Well, thank you so much for, uh, for joining us.
[38:42.880 --> 38:49.880]  Uh, this may be one of the, uh, longest, uh, distance calls we've placed on the show.
[38:49.880 --> 38:52.060]  And for us, that's quite a feat.
[38:52.960 --> 38:58.360]  Um, and do you have any kind of closing words for us or?
[39:00.560 --> 39:08.220]  Um, no, I suppose I, you know, enjoy the good food and, uh, the good weather while, you know, up there.
[39:08.380 --> 39:10.340]  I'm certainly looking forward to having some of it again.
[39:12.180 --> 39:12.700]  All right.
[39:12.700 --> 39:12.720]  All right.
[39:12.920 --> 39:14.540]  Thanks so much for joining us.
[39:14.560 --> 39:14.980]  Bye, Christian.
[39:15.080 --> 39:15.220]  Thanks.
[39:15.280 --> 39:17.100]  Thanks for having me.
[39:17.160 --> 39:17.740]  You guys have a good night.
[39:18.120 --> 39:18.480]  Bye.
[39:19.760 --> 39:23.600]  And where else besides WBAI are you going to hear a phone call like that?
[39:24.520 --> 39:25.400]  Nowhere that I know.
[39:25.800 --> 39:30.980]  So please, if you have, uh, if you, if you are enjoying this program, please, uh, call in and pledge.
[39:31.180 --> 39:34.700]  The number again is 212-209-2950.
[39:35.200 --> 39:37.320]  And, uh, maybe Mike, you can go over the premiums again.
[39:38.220 --> 39:38.580]  Sure.
[39:38.920 --> 39:39.900]  Uh, I didn't.
[39:39.900 --> 39:41.720]  They're right in front of you, but...
[39:41.720 --> 39:42.540]  I could do it as well.
[39:42.920 --> 39:48.200]  The, anyone who pledges $25 and more gets in addition to their membership to WBAI.
[39:48.360 --> 39:51.090]  They get the off the hook t-shirt, which is very fashionable.
[39:51.740 --> 39:55.440]  Although I guess no one here is, uh, maybe for a warmer weather.
[39:55.600 --> 39:58.340]  It could be under one, one, one of three of our sweaters.
[39:58.520 --> 39:59.140]  It's true.
[40:00.120 --> 40:09.760]  Um, if you want these sweatshirts, which are so popular among the off the hook staff, there are 50, you can get them, uh, and thanks for your pledge of $50.
[40:10.920 --> 40:14.960]  And if you pledge $75 or more, you can always pledge more.
[40:15.160 --> 40:21.160]  You will get the off the hook DVD-ROM, the new edition, including all shoes through the end of this year.
[40:21.820 --> 40:27.860]  And if you're really special, we'll send it to you before the end of the year and you can hear the future, but, uh, that may not happen.
[40:27.860 --> 40:31.380]  And as long as they pledge over $25, they get the t-shirt, right?
[40:31.480 --> 40:34.060]  So if they pledge $50, they get the sweatshirt and the t-shirt, right?
[40:34.260 --> 40:34.640]  Exactly.
[40:34.640 --> 40:35.920]  You can get a whole wardrobe.
[40:37.200 --> 40:40.480]  And in addition, your support keeps the station going.
[40:40.980 --> 40:44.060]  And I know a lot of our listeners may only listen to this show.
[40:44.260 --> 40:52.860]  It's the only show they listen to on WBAI, but those listeners are really missing out, uh, because there's a lot of great content on this station.
[40:53.460 --> 41:06.420]  And if you compare it to a lot of the other stations that are popping up in the city, like these silly new Jack FM stations and all that, where they're completely automated and there's no, no personality and it's, you know, very junky.
[41:07.180 --> 41:11.720]  You know, this station broadcasts a lot of content that's very, you know, local to the area.
[41:11.840 --> 41:15.620]  You know, you really feel like it's a, it's a local station really benefiting the community.
[41:15.720 --> 41:18.660]  And you don't get that with any of the other stations in the city, really.
[41:18.840 --> 41:21.560]  Say what you will about WBAI, it is not automated.
[41:21.900 --> 41:25.600]  There are people here because these machines are really not capable of being automated.
[41:25.600 --> 41:30.860]  And while we're here, we like to say things, uh, that machines really aren't capable of saying.
[41:32.740 --> 41:36.540]  And so again, the number is 212-209-2950.
[41:36.540 --> 41:38.160]  We have one call on the line.
[41:38.160 --> 41:43.540]  We had some calls, uh, earlier, but we really, you know, need your support to keep going.
[41:43.800 --> 41:48.920]  And, you know, there's, there's really no other way for us to do it.
[41:48.920 --> 41:54.300]  But, uh, if we could, like a lot of start, a lot of, a lot of stations will play advertisements.
[41:54.300 --> 41:57.420]  Most stations in this country will play advertisements.
[41:58.080 --> 42:06.780]  And what's interesting about the business model of these commercial stations is that the product is not airtime.
[42:06.900 --> 42:08.760]  The product is the ears of listeners.
[42:08.760 --> 42:19.700]  So stations in the commercial world are judged by how many listener ears they can get to sell soap or whatever it is.
[42:19.860 --> 42:21.700]  Apple computers, whatever it is.
[42:23.240 --> 42:25.240]  The listener ear is the product.
[42:25.560 --> 42:27.340]  Here on WBAI, that's not the way it works.
[42:27.580 --> 42:28.480]  There is no product.
[42:28.780 --> 42:29.840]  We just do radio.
[42:29.900 --> 42:32.100]  And we do radio that we think people want to hear.
[42:32.540 --> 42:36.000]  And we're totally free of this, uh, corporate control.
[42:36.160 --> 42:43.920]  So we know it's a little, perhaps, annoying to have to listen to us beg for money, uh, every once in a while.
[42:44.560 --> 42:48.660]  And we know that you'd rather just let us get back to our programming.
[42:49.140 --> 42:51.720]  And you wish they wouldn't do these, uh, specials.
[42:52.000 --> 42:54.400]  But it's really the only way for us to support ourselves.
[42:54.400 --> 43:07.360]  And if you compare the amount of time we spend on these fund drives to the amount of time that commercial stations spend on advertising over and over the same products, I'm sure you'll find that we really come out quite okay.
[43:08.440 --> 43:13.500]  Probably much less time, uh, dedicated to, uh, to, um, trying to fundraise.
[43:13.580 --> 43:21.520]  And I would say WBAI is, uh, very different than, uh, most public radio stations, which, uh, have corporate underwriting.
[43:21.920 --> 43:22.140]  And...
[43:22.140 --> 43:22.880]  They have commercials.
[43:23.100 --> 43:23.600]  Just say it.
[43:24.400 --> 43:24.560]  Great.
[43:24.700 --> 43:27.160]  They call it corporate, uh, corporate, uh, underwriting.
[43:27.360 --> 43:31.020]  But, uh, you and I, and everybody else really generally knows it's commercials.
[43:31.700 --> 43:34.060]  Um, so you don't have that with WBAI.
[43:34.220 --> 43:39.900]  You will not hear any commercial product or company, um, promoted on the station.
[43:39.900 --> 43:41.260]  And there's a good reason for that.
[43:41.380 --> 43:56.860]  That has to do with objectivity, um, and content control, which, uh, commercial stations and even public stations, uh, won't even admit to, uh, uh, changing their content based on their sponsors.
[43:56.860 --> 43:58.160]  But it happens.
[43:58.480 --> 43:58.940]  But it happens.
[43:58.940 --> 44:00.720]  And it does not happen at WBAI.
[44:00.840 --> 44:11.740]  This is really the only independent station you're going to, one of the few independent stations you're going to hear in this country that is not, um, somehow beholden to commercial interests.
[44:11.740 --> 44:13.360]  And that's really worth a lot.
[44:13.600 --> 44:19.400]  And, uh, if you enjoy what you're listening to on this station now and maybe at other times, um, please give us a call.
[44:19.500 --> 44:20.080]  What's that number again?
[44:20.080 --> 44:24.580]  The number again, you should know it by now, is 212-209-2950.
[44:24.840 --> 44:28.620]  And I want to mention that we have received a message, uh, from Emmanuel.
[44:29.060 --> 44:34.820]  He, he writes, uh, that he will explain all in two weeks, but actually three weeks is when we'll next be on.
[44:35.120 --> 44:37.460]  Uh, greetings to everyone from the abyss.
[44:37.720 --> 44:38.820]  Please pledge your support.
[44:39.200 --> 44:43.560]  And again, the number is 212-209-2950.
[44:44.620 --> 44:53.180]  Uh, and, uh, we will also shortly be taking phone calls on 209-2900, uh, 2900.
[44:53.560 --> 44:55.660]  And you can be on the air at that number.
[44:55.820 --> 44:59.680]  Uh, but we also ask you to call 209-2950.
[45:00.020 --> 45:08.560]  And all these numbers are, of course, in the area code 212 and the country code 1, uh, to pledge your support to the station.
[45:09.620 --> 45:11.900]  Uh, do you have any other news, Bernie?
[45:12.900 --> 45:19.160]  Um, well, um, I think we should still keep talking about the station and, and, and take some calls.
[45:19.220 --> 45:24.520]  But we did have one interesting, uh, email from a, a listener who is a, a college professor of engineering.
[45:24.920 --> 45:31.200]  Uh, and he was asking about, uh, amateur satellites, which, uh, which we mentioned, uh, on the air, uh, recently.
[45:31.920 --> 45:40.920]  And, um, uh, many of, uh, many of the staffers at Off the Hook and the 2600 are, or happen to be ham radio operators or amateur radio operators.
[45:41.160 --> 45:44.560]  And, uh, uh, uh, Red, uh, Redbird there is one.
[45:44.660 --> 45:48.320]  And, uh, maybe Redbird, could you, could you speak a few words about what amateur satellites are about?
[45:48.440 --> 45:52.260]  And maybe a website where people can learn more about amateur satellites and what they're for?
[45:52.460 --> 45:52.760]  Sure.
[45:53.020 --> 45:57.460]  Well, uh, amateur radio operators, I guess, are, are interested in all sorts of forms of radio communication.
[45:57.880 --> 46:03.060]  And, uh, and there are, uh, many groups of people who are, uh, interested in satellite communication.
[46:03.320 --> 46:09.980]  So, so, uh, quite a few satellites have been launched, um, which were put together and developed by amateur radio operators and all that.
[46:10.440 --> 46:12.740]  And, uh, and, uh, and, and are used to relay messages.
[46:12.940 --> 46:20.780]  Uh, so you'll have, you know, these satellites pass over and maybe a window of opportunity of, you know, 15, 20 minutes or so when you can actually contact them.
[46:21.220 --> 46:33.460]  And, uh, and, you know, you can, you can, you can do digital modes, you can do voice modes and relay messages and make all sorts of, uh, long distance contacts that, uh, would otherwise be more difficult on the higher frequencies.
[46:33.880 --> 46:36.720]  So, uh, it is a very interesting form of communication.
[46:36.940 --> 46:39.600]  I guess that's, uh, that's what you wanted, a summary of it.
[46:39.720 --> 46:40.560]  So, there you go.
[46:40.980 --> 46:42.380]  And it's absolutely free.
[46:42.820 --> 46:43.260]  Absolutely.
[46:43.880 --> 46:47.860]  So, um, there's a, uh, there's a good website, uh, amsat.org.
[46:47.860 --> 46:52.700]  It's the, uh, uh, a, uh, alpha, Mary, the era, alpha, tango.
[46:52.920 --> 46:55.380]  That's A-M-S-A-T for the rest of us.
[46:55.660 --> 46:55.880]  Yes.
[46:56.860 --> 47:04.580]  Um, and, uh, another site about amateur radio is A-R-R-L.org, the, uh, American Radio Relay League.
[47:04.980 --> 47:07.440]  Um, both sites have a lot of good information about amateur radio.
[47:07.640 --> 47:10.400]  And, uh, we just had a long satellite call tonight.
[47:10.580 --> 47:17.140]  And, uh, as Christian mentioned, uh, when, uh, when this, when other forms of communication aren't working, they, uh, they use amateur radio.
[47:17.140 --> 47:26.820]  So, it's a, it's an amazing, uh, very much like, uh, listener-supported, uh, WBAI in that, uh, there's no corporate, uh, infrastructure supporting it.
[47:27.240 --> 47:28.360]  So, um...
[47:28.360 --> 47:32.100]  There is no infrastructure supporting it except, uh, you know...
[47:32.100 --> 47:34.660]  Government regulation, perhaps.
[47:35.440 --> 47:35.920]  Possibly.
[47:36.220 --> 47:38.620]  Can you call the South Pole with the amateur radio?
[47:38.760 --> 47:41.240]  You would absolutely be able to talk to the South Pole.
[47:41.660 --> 47:44.200]  So, if the voice-over IP fails...
[47:44.200 --> 47:47.680]  Depending on propagation, but, you know, in technical difficulties, maybe.
[47:48.020 --> 47:48.080]  Huh.
[47:49.340 --> 47:53.360]  Again, the number to call to pledge is 212-209-2950.
[47:53.540 --> 47:55.740]  I think we'll take, uh, phone calls in a few minutes.
[47:55.900 --> 48:00.820]  So, if you'd like to be on the air, uh, 212-209-2900.
[48:01.320 --> 48:02.740]  And why not call both numbers?
[48:02.840 --> 48:03.460]  It's kind of fun.
[48:05.020 --> 48:05.440]  Um...
[48:05.440 --> 48:06.620]  We can't take their pledge.
[48:06.900 --> 48:07.320]  No.
[48:07.560 --> 48:09.780]  Don't give your credit card number out over the air.
[48:10.160 --> 48:11.240]  It's unwise.
[48:12.280 --> 48:14.880]  Uh, again, there's really...
[48:14.880 --> 48:16.620]  You know, we, we say this over and over again.
[48:16.700 --> 48:17.800]  We sound like a broken record.
[48:17.960 --> 48:19.100]  But it's really the truth.
[48:19.280 --> 48:23.760]  That there's no other place that you can hear radio like we do.
[48:25.140 --> 48:27.540]  Anywhere, except for the few stations that carry us.
[48:27.660 --> 48:30.260]  Anywhere in the country, anywhere in the world, as far as I know.
[48:30.720 --> 48:39.640]  Uh, and only a station like WBAI would give us the support to, you know, to give a bunch of hackers an hour on the radio every week.
[48:40.260 --> 48:43.400]  And that's why this station is such a unique place.
[48:43.660 --> 48:46.880]  People like us, uh, are always being put on the radio.
[48:47.340 --> 48:54.240]  There's a, a new youth show, or not new, but new time slot youth show, that is kind of exciting, called Rise Up Radio.
[48:54.580 --> 48:55.460]  And they're here.
[48:55.720 --> 49:01.240]  And all these, uh, programs that come from WBAI, that can't be heard anywhere else.
[49:01.240 --> 49:04.180]  And in a lot of cases, nothing like them can be heard anywhere else.
[49:04.340 --> 49:10.360]  So to keep these going, again, the number is 212-209-2950.
[49:10.620 --> 49:14.520]  Uh, we have some people who did already call that number, and we want to thank them.
[49:16.400 --> 49:16.840]  Um...
[49:16.840 --> 49:19.780]  Alright, uh, thank you Eric from Union City, New Jersey.
[49:20.320 --> 49:21.500]  Jeffrey from Brooklyn.
[49:22.160 --> 49:25.240]  Uh, Ronald from Man, New York.
[49:26.500 --> 49:29.880]  Uh, Alberto from San Francisco, California.
[49:30.100 --> 49:31.560]  That's, that's a nice long distance pledge.
[49:32.120 --> 49:34.300]  Uh, Michael from Man, New York again.
[49:34.380 --> 49:35.180]  That, that's Manhattan.
[49:35.480 --> 49:35.760]  Oh.
[49:36.440 --> 49:37.740]  I'm, I'm a little out of it.
[49:38.020 --> 49:38.740]  No, it's okay.
[49:40.740 --> 49:43.280]  And, uh, Redbird has handed me this one.
[49:43.440 --> 49:45.740]  This is, uh, Kuja from Farmingdale, New York.
[49:45.740 --> 49:47.320]  Also called the pledge.
[49:47.620 --> 49:51.340]  And always there's people who call and pledge and won't let us read their name on the air.
[49:51.540 --> 49:54.560]  I guess they want to rename anonymous, uh, they're afraid of.
[49:55.040 --> 49:57.760]  Who might, uh, hear that they have pledged.
[49:58.180 --> 49:59.320]  And that's okay, too.
[49:59.500 --> 50:02.540]  You can, if you want to be read on the air, you better call really quickly.
[50:02.880 --> 50:04.840]  Uh, 212-209-2950.
[50:05.340 --> 50:07.000]  Because there's not a lot of time left.
[50:07.420 --> 50:12.460]  Uh, but some people whose, not only their names, but their voices will be on the air, are calling us.
[50:12.640 --> 50:15.200]  Uh, if you want to pledge, 209-2950.
[50:15.200 --> 50:16.900]  So, and let's take a call.
[50:17.260 --> 50:17.560]  All right.
[50:18.460 --> 50:20.040]  And good evening, you're on the...
[50:20.040 --> 50:21.140]  No, I guess they're not.
[50:21.720 --> 50:23.200]  Uh, good evening, you're on the air.
[50:26.380 --> 50:28.120]  Could you turn down your radio, please?
[50:28.740 --> 50:29.560]  I turned it off.
[50:29.880 --> 50:30.340]  Great.
[50:31.020 --> 50:32.100]  Okay, I have two questions.
[50:32.260 --> 50:34.760]  The first about civil rights and subway searches.
[50:35.060 --> 50:35.480]  Mm-hmm.
[50:35.480 --> 50:44.600]  Do you think, uh, that the, uh, searches would be legal if they had first installed some sort of bomb or radiological scanning in it at the entrance of the subway?
[50:44.600 --> 50:46.320]  That would give good due cause.
[50:46.440 --> 50:49.220]  But would the installation as such violate any civil rights?
[50:50.520 --> 50:52.340]  Um, you'd have to ask a lawyer.
[50:53.000 --> 50:57.960]  My intuition is that it would be very hard to make it work, uh, at least anytime soon.
[50:57.960 --> 51:03.060]  So, even before they got to the legal questions, there would be a lot of technical questions to ask.
[51:03.180 --> 51:04.460]  But it is an interesting question.
[51:04.820 --> 51:05.780]  Uh, Bernie, do you have any ideas?
[51:06.540 --> 51:07.840]  Um, I would think not.
[51:07.980 --> 51:22.960]  I think it'd be similar to getting on, uh, airplanes where, uh, um, there's a, there's an interest in, uh, it's not really as invasive a search, um, as somebody rifling through your bag with your hands, uh, sniffing for explosives.
[51:23.720 --> 51:26.460]  Um, I don't have a problem with that and everybody has their own opinions.
[51:26.720 --> 51:31.620]  How about bomb-sniffing dogs at the stations instead of a mechanical device?
[51:32.640 --> 51:34.880]  I've seen bomb-sniffing dogs at the stations.
[51:35.060 --> 51:36.360]  They, they already do it, so...
[51:36.360 --> 51:36.920]  Oh, I see.
[51:37.140 --> 51:37.220]  Yeah.
[51:37.500 --> 51:42.000]  Okay, I had a second question about the, uh, Bill of Rights for, uh, cell phone easers.
[51:42.660 --> 51:56.600]  Uh, wouldn't it, wouldn't you think a provision that would require, like, giving common carrier status to, uh, the various towers, do you think that kind of provision would ultimately help the industry in expanding coverage and lowering their own costs?
[51:56.720 --> 52:01.180]  And do you think that's something that maybe people should call and ask the legislatures to add into the bill?
[52:01.180 --> 52:15.880]  Well, long overdue, uh, I think that the wireless carriers, cell phone carriers, PCS carriers, get away with a lot that they wouldn't be able to get away with if they were under the jurisdiction of their respective, uh, public utility commissions at each state.
[52:16.460 --> 52:19.980]  Um, but they're exempt from that, which, uh, I think is, uh, is wrong.
[52:20.580 --> 52:20.800]  Hmm.
[52:21.020 --> 52:27.100]  But they have a very powerful political lobby, the, uh, CTIA, Cellular Telephone Industry Association.
[52:27.580 --> 52:33.280]  And, uh, they've, they've managed to keep out from under the purview of, uh, any state public utilities commission.
[52:33.660 --> 52:35.460]  So that's one of the problems.
[52:36.100 --> 52:45.320]  Yeah, because that would, you know, it would enhance their ability to compete, uh, by not having no longer, no longer to compete on, uh, on, you know, actual signal availability.
[52:45.320 --> 52:52.060]  Uh, but, you know, instead, uh, improve their service, compete on price, give us, uh, flat data plans that really work.
[52:52.340 --> 53:01.220]  Uh, but on that subject, if I can leave you with just one other question, uh, as far as flat rate data plans are concerned on, uh, cellular carriers, uh, do you have a favorite?
[53:04.200 --> 53:14.140]  Uh, I hear that Verizon has a 60, $60 a month flat rate plan of, uh, EVDO, which is, uh, pretty high bandwidth wireless sprint has one too.
[53:14.320 --> 53:15.880]  That's flat rate about $80 a month.
[53:16.120 --> 53:17.100]  There are others.
[53:17.260 --> 53:20.880]  Um, I'm not promoting or endorsing any of them, but those are two that I know of.
[53:21.040 --> 53:23.060]  Oh, I was hoping for something lower cost.
[53:23.200 --> 53:29.120]  T-Mobile has 20, but, uh, but you get like between 50, 40 and 50 K per second.
[53:29.140 --> 53:29.360]  Yeah.
[53:29.420 --> 53:30.900]  It's a much, much lower speed.
[53:31.020 --> 53:34.000]  You can get megabits per second with the, uh, with EVDO technology.
[53:34.280 --> 53:38.720]  So, uh, you kind of get what you pay for, but in any case you pay a lot more than you should.
[53:39.160 --> 53:39.600]  Okay.
[53:39.980 --> 53:40.860]  Well, Hey, thanks a lot.
[53:41.000 --> 53:45.680]  And, uh, you know, I pledged at an earlier show, but anyway, uh, keep up the good work.
[53:45.780 --> 53:46.360]  Your show's great.
[53:46.520 --> 53:46.920]  Thanks a lot.
[53:47.520 --> 53:48.540]  Thanks for the call.
[53:49.560 --> 53:53.520]  Um, again, the number to call is 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 900.
[53:53.760 --> 53:57.720]  And the number to pledge is still a few minutes left to get the off the hook premiums.
[53:58.280 --> 54:01.100]  Uh, $25 and up is the off the hook t-shirt.
[54:01.480 --> 54:07.320]  Uh, $50 is not only the t-shirt, but also this very handy sweatshirt and $75.
[54:07.320 --> 54:14.540]  In addition to the t-shirt, you get the off the hook DVD ROM, which includes all shows through the end of 2005.
[54:14.940 --> 54:18.800]  And the number to pledge is 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0.
[54:19.000 --> 54:20.640]  Uh, let's take another phone call.
[54:21.720 --> 54:22.600]  And good evening.
[54:22.760 --> 54:23.220]  You're on the air.
[54:24.120 --> 54:24.520]  Hello.
[54:24.880 --> 54:25.200]  Hi.
[54:26.200 --> 54:26.600]  Hi.
[54:26.740 --> 54:27.180]  I'm on the air.
[54:27.400 --> 54:27.680]  Mm-hmm.
[54:28.160 --> 54:28.560]  Oh, okay.
[54:28.560 --> 54:36.660]  I just wanted to comment, uh, uh, because I have a cell phone store regarding the fees and the hidden fees that you guys were talking about before.
[54:37.020 --> 54:37.360]  Mm-hmm.
[54:37.360 --> 54:37.500]  Yes.
[54:38.200 --> 54:40.220]  The majority of it is basically the taxes.
[54:40.580 --> 54:43.560]  There's actually a website I'm driving right now.
[54:43.560 --> 54:44.460]  I don't have it with me.
[54:44.840 --> 54:52.300]  Uh, that's trying to fight the tremendous amount of taxes that, uh, that's imposed on, uh, everybody's bill.
[54:52.300 --> 54:53.500]  Like in New York.
[54:54.120 --> 54:55.980]  Yeah, these are not taxes on you.
[54:56.200 --> 55:00.340]  These are taxes on the, on the companies that are selling services to you.
[55:00.460 --> 55:03.560]  And they don't, they refuse to pay those taxes and just say, you should pay them.
[55:03.920 --> 55:11.680]  Um, and they're not even quoting those, all those extra tax fees that they're imposing on you as part of your monthly, uh, quoted rate.
[55:11.900 --> 55:13.000]  So it's very unfair.
[55:13.000 --> 55:16.880]  And it's, uh, you know, it's one of the things that I think a cell phone bill of rights should include.
[55:17.100 --> 55:19.680]  I, I think it's just another way for government to make more money.
[55:19.680 --> 55:26.240]  It's just like they, they, the tremendous amount of tax they have on cigarettes, gasoline and, uh, alcohol, all these other stuff.
[55:26.560 --> 55:30.240]  They have just stupid amount of tax on cell phone usage.
[55:30.460 --> 55:31.660]  It just doesn't make sense at all.
[55:31.820 --> 55:32.980]  21% in New York.
[55:33.200 --> 55:40.600]  And you can't compare carriers very well either because none of these carriers quote, quote these taxes that are, they're passing through to the consumer.
[55:40.800 --> 55:41.460]  Well, it's the same everywhere.
[55:41.800 --> 55:43.200]  It just depends on your rate.
[55:43.400 --> 55:47.980]  You know, if you have a higher rate plan, you're going to pay obviously more taxes because of the percentage.
[55:48.840 --> 55:49.720]  It's just a mess.
[55:50.260 --> 55:50.420]  Yeah?
[55:50.800 --> 55:50.900]  Yep.
[55:51.500 --> 55:51.640]  All right.
[55:51.640 --> 55:52.180]  Okay, thank you.
[55:52.320 --> 55:52.600]  Thank you.
[55:54.000 --> 55:54.400]  Okay.
[55:54.820 --> 55:57.380]  Um, I guess we're about out of time.
[55:58.780 --> 55:59.180]  So...
[55:59.180 --> 56:03.340]  Again, the number to call the pledge is 212-209-2950.
[56:03.340 --> 56:07.800]  We will not be on the air, uh, next week or the week after, uh, we believe.
[56:07.800 --> 56:12.040]  Of course, everything could change, uh, but we will see you in a few weeks.
[56:12.320 --> 56:17.960]  Uh, and if you want to pledge, again, the number is 212-209-2950.
[56:17.960 --> 56:18.220]  All right.
[56:18.380 --> 56:19.580]  Thank you and, uh, good night.