[00:00.000 --> 00:04.600]  In Washington, D.C., I'm Selena Masuda, sitting in for Outa Bogato.
[00:11.000 --> 00:14.700]  And it's just approaching 7 o'clock here on WBAI New York.
[00:14.860 --> 00:16.060]  Time then for Off the Hook.
[00:21.070 --> 00:26.990]  And you know it's WBAI New York because the CD players are not quite working.
[00:27.190 --> 00:27.650]  There they go.
[01:58.490 --> 02:00.970]  And the name of the program is Off the Hook.
[02:00.970 --> 02:03.710]  I am Mike and I'm joined here in the studio by Jim.
[02:03.850 --> 02:04.190]  Hello!
[02:04.630 --> 02:05.450]  And Arseny.
[02:05.630 --> 02:05.890]  Hi.
[02:06.190 --> 02:06.870]  And Walter.
[02:07.270 --> 02:07.530]  Yo.
[02:08.250 --> 02:09.830]  On the phone is Bernie S.
[02:09.970 --> 02:10.490]  in Philadelphia.
[02:14.150 --> 02:17.150]  And Emanuel joins us from Brooklyn or somewhere.
[02:18.010 --> 02:19.350]  No, not exactly Brooklyn.
[02:19.550 --> 02:20.870]  Where are you getting your information from?
[02:21.010 --> 02:21.950]  Well, I call Brooklyn.
[02:22.290 --> 02:23.190]  No, I'm in Berlin.
[02:23.530 --> 02:23.970]  Berlin.
[02:25.030 --> 02:27.350]  It begins with the same letter, I guess, and the same number of syllables.
[02:27.550 --> 02:28.850]  But other than that, it's quite different.
[02:29.870 --> 02:39.030]  I'm at the 22nd Chaos Communications Congress, which is basically a computer hacker gathering that's been taking place since 1984.
[02:39.030 --> 02:42.430]  1984 in either Hamburg or Berlin.
[02:43.190 --> 02:45.490]  And this year has been pretty amazing so far.
[02:45.790 --> 02:49.770]  They've actually extended it this year from three days to four days.
[02:49.950 --> 02:53.570]  So it's running the 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th.
[02:54.090 --> 02:56.850]  So it just keeps getting bigger and bigger every year.
[02:57.210 --> 03:01.850]  And I guess, you know, the sky's the limit as far as this kind of thing goes.
[03:02.590 --> 03:04.210]  What are some of the things they have there?
[03:05.270 --> 03:08.430]  Well, they have an incredible amount of bandwidth.
[03:08.430 --> 03:10.730]  In fact, that's how we're talking to you right now.
[03:12.250 --> 03:22.510]  We basically have one of the deck phones that they are known for using at these things, which are basically little PBXs that are inside organizations.
[03:23.030 --> 03:27.670]  And we're routing the call over the Internet using a local number in New York City.
[03:27.810 --> 03:28.650]  This isn't costing us a penny.
[03:28.970 --> 03:30.710]  So you're hearing my voice over the Internet.
[03:30.710 --> 03:33.710]  There have been all kinds of panels.
[03:33.890 --> 03:34.830]  There's over 100 panels.
[03:34.990 --> 03:57.090]  There's all sorts of gatherings of people talking to each other, trading information displays, robotic displays, blinking lights displays, you know, all that kind of stuff that we've gotten so accustomed to just by going to either the Congresses or the once-every-four-year hacker outdoor events that take place in Germany.
[03:57.270 --> 04:00.270]  And, of course, on the other two years, they take place in Holland.
[04:01.150 --> 04:12.650]  So it's basically, you know, just the usual gathering of minds from all around the world, mostly Europe, of course, because most Americans don't make that trek out to Germany.
[04:12.650 --> 04:15.390]  It's too bad, too, because the few who have...
[04:15.890 --> 04:23.810]  Well, maybe a few isn't quite the right word, but there are a few dozens who have, I think, are realizing how cool it is.
[04:26.720 --> 04:28.760]  So you're with some Americans, then?
[04:29.480 --> 04:30.400]  There are Americans here.
[04:30.440 --> 04:32.640]  In fact, I'd like to pass you on to a couple.
[04:33.940 --> 04:37.540]  Redbird is here, and he's going to give you his impressions of what's going on.
[04:38.360 --> 04:39.220]  Hello, Redbird.
[04:39.680 --> 04:40.460]  Hi, I'm...
[04:40.460 --> 04:40.640]  Oh.
[04:41.240 --> 04:41.840]  Hey, guys.
[04:42.040 --> 04:42.440]  How are you?
[04:42.880 --> 04:43.380]  Pretty good.
[04:44.040 --> 04:45.820]  What are you seeing in Germany?
[04:45.820 --> 04:49.100]  Oh, I'm seeing the CCC.
[04:49.520 --> 04:51.340]  I've been at, you know, started yesterday.
[04:51.560 --> 04:52.540]  It's really fun.
[04:52.640 --> 04:56.780]  It's nice to get away from a lot of the American nonsense that's been going on lately.
[04:57.240 --> 05:03.640]  But, yeah, there's, you know, nothing too special to report as far as flight stuff.
[05:03.840 --> 05:10.360]  We've always had interesting stories that have to do with security at the airport terminal, and nothing too intense this time.
[05:10.480 --> 05:14.800]  It seemed actually pretty lax compared to the last couple of times that I flew.
[05:14.800 --> 05:16.640]  Did you bring your scissors with you?
[05:17.540 --> 05:18.380]  I did not.
[05:19.140 --> 05:20.860]  I tried to play cool.
[05:20.980 --> 05:24.580]  I didn't, you know, I'm kind of tired of dealing with the TSA agents.
[05:24.860 --> 05:27.660]  But I had kind of a funny conflict this time.
[05:29.160 --> 05:33.980]  The guy was kind of shouting, okay, we ask that you take off your sneakers and your jacket.
[05:34.800 --> 05:37.360]  And so I didn't take off my sneakers.
[05:37.500 --> 05:39.320]  But I put my jacket through the x-ray machine.
[05:39.460 --> 05:40.620]  I kind of walked past him.
[05:40.620 --> 05:46.880]  And he got in my face, and he was like, oh, you know, sneakers, jacket, x-ray machine, you know, put them all in.
[05:48.140 --> 05:54.960]  And I kind of walked past, and he starts telling me in Spanish to put my shoes in the x-ray machine.
[05:55.980 --> 05:57.920]  And I obviously didn't understand that.
[05:58.040 --> 06:00.080]  And then he starts joking around.
[06:00.080 --> 06:01.120]  He had a pretty good sense of humor.
[06:01.260 --> 06:04.660]  He goes, okay, things on your feet for $400.
[06:04.660 --> 06:06.020]  Put them in the x-ray machine.
[06:06.660 --> 06:09.980]  So, you know, it seemed a lot more laid back.
[06:10.100 --> 06:11.660]  I didn't really have too much of a conflict there.
[06:12.960 --> 06:14.060]  But the conference is great.
[06:14.160 --> 06:15.260]  Everybody here is very friendly.
[06:15.840 --> 06:18.120]  You know, you come into Amsterdam.
[06:18.200 --> 06:21.100]  I flew into Holland.
[06:21.740 --> 06:24.000]  And, you know, I flew into the country.
[06:24.660 --> 06:25.480]  It's very great.
[06:25.820 --> 06:27.580]  You seem to have cut out for a moment there.
[06:27.780 --> 06:28.960]  Oh, sorry about that.
[06:29.100 --> 06:30.620]  I can't really tell from here.
[06:30.620 --> 06:33.220]  But the conference is going great.
[06:33.220 --> 06:35.960]  There's all sorts of interesting talks going on.
[06:36.040 --> 06:40.820]  There's all sorts of neat little things that people come up with and, you know, have on display.
[06:41.060 --> 06:44.840]  And, you know, just walking around, you find all sorts of neat things.
[06:44.980 --> 06:47.940]  And it's really fun.
[06:48.980 --> 06:49.560]  All right.
[06:49.800 --> 06:50.840]  Anything else to add?
[06:51.400 --> 06:52.240]  Not too much.
[06:52.700 --> 06:54.760]  Junts is actually here for the first time.
[06:55.180 --> 06:57.760]  I don't know if you want to ask him some questions.
[06:57.920 --> 06:59.020]  He's kind of a newcomer.
[06:59.020 --> 07:02.140]  I've already been to three conferences, so I kind of have a...
[07:03.060 --> 07:06.940]  He probably has a better perspective than me of what's going on.
[07:07.040 --> 07:08.120]  But first, I'll give you back to Emmanuel.
[07:08.280 --> 07:09.820]  I'm getting all sorts of hand motions here.
[07:09.900 --> 07:10.320]  Hold on one second.
[07:10.920 --> 07:12.900]  Well, actually, I wanted to ask Redbird a couple of questions.
[07:13.140 --> 07:16.660]  I know he gave a panel at this conference.
[07:17.300 --> 07:19.420]  And, Redbird, tell us something about the panel that you gave.
[07:19.540 --> 07:20.300]  What was it called?
[07:20.340 --> 07:21.240]  What kind of reaction did he get?
[07:22.520 --> 07:25.040]  The panel was called Magnetic Stripe Technology.
[07:25.040 --> 07:39.240]  And I basically talked about MagStripe stuff that I've been working on lately, the MTA, you know, how you can make your own reader, and all sorts of things involved in reverse engineering, proprietary Magnetic Stripe formats and stuff like that.
[07:39.300 --> 07:42.780]  And it was one of the hour-long lectures that were given in one of the four rooms here.
[07:42.920 --> 07:46.220]  So you have a lot of options as far as what sort of lectures you want to attend.
[07:46.460 --> 07:47.840]  And, you know, it went really well.
[07:47.840 --> 07:54.320]  Well, it's always great when you finish the lecture to see what kind of people come up with you with different suggestions and different ideas.
[07:54.540 --> 08:06.280]  And actually, about 10 or 20 minutes before I got on the phone here, someone came up to me and, you know, started discussing all sorts of new algorithms that he had thought up for decoding the MagStripe stuff.
[08:06.400 --> 08:12.120]  And it's just always great to see, you know, different perspectives on the work that you've done and new ideas and stuff like that.
[08:12.240 --> 08:14.760]  So that's always what I look forward to at these conferences.
[08:16.140 --> 08:16.660]  All right.
[08:17.320 --> 08:18.600]  Redbird mentioned that Junts is here.
[08:18.680 --> 08:21.640]  Junts is in Germany and Europe, in fact, for the first time.
[08:22.080 --> 08:26.000]  And I'd like to ask him a couple of things about his experiences here.
[08:27.000 --> 08:28.600]  What's it like being here for the first time?
[08:29.720 --> 08:31.080]  Well, it's actually very exciting.
[08:31.260 --> 08:32.180]  I'm having a good time.
[08:32.880 --> 08:33.660]  Yeah, they mentioned...
[08:33.660 --> 08:35.740]  A lot of people are mentioning this is my first time out of the country.
[08:35.740 --> 08:38.940]  And I realize that I've been missing a lot all this time.
[08:39.620 --> 08:41.100]  All the stories are true.
[08:41.520 --> 08:44.860]  People aren't crazy in the rest of the world, like they are back home.
[08:46.820 --> 08:49.820]  But, yeah, the conference is going well.
[08:50.720 --> 08:53.960]  Everything's very laid back, but yet well organized.
[08:54.320 --> 08:57.920]  Nobody's, like, running around with their head cut off, screaming for things to get done.
[08:58.100 --> 08:59.060]  Why isn't this done?
[08:59.100 --> 08:59.520]  Why isn't that?
[08:59.640 --> 09:01.900]  Everything seems to be going pretty well.
[09:02.100 --> 09:03.060]  I'm enjoying myself.
[09:03.360 --> 09:09.220]  And, yeah, just being over here in this part of the world, it has a calming effect on you.
[09:09.220 --> 09:12.220]  So, maybe it's being away from work, too.
[09:12.400 --> 09:15.620]  But, so how are things back home for you guys?
[09:15.960 --> 09:16.600]  Everything's well?
[09:16.940 --> 09:17.440]  They're well.
[09:17.620 --> 09:18.160]  I'm not sure.
[09:18.240 --> 09:21.500]  How are the people listening over the Internet in your absence?
[09:21.700 --> 09:22.560]  I was just going to ask.
[09:23.340 --> 09:26.080]  Yeah, well, the last I checked, it was still running.
[09:26.080 --> 09:27.460]  So, hopefully, that's still the case.
[09:28.320 --> 09:28.660]  All right.
[09:28.660 --> 09:31.020]  Well, we have a lot of confidence in our volunteers.
[09:32.340 --> 09:33.200]  Yes, yes.
[09:34.260 --> 09:36.300]  Fortunately, it's fairly automatic.
[09:36.300 --> 09:39.120]  So, I don't have to be there tending to it 24-7.
[09:39.340 --> 09:43.900]  And I just hope it hasn't gone down between the last time I checked in and now.
[09:44.000 --> 09:45.520]  But I don't think it did.
[09:45.600 --> 09:46.260]  I think we'll be all right.
[09:47.020 --> 09:51.400]  But, yeah, you guys, every time I'm on the show, I'm usually begging for people to give us bandwidth.
[09:51.600 --> 09:54.080]  So, I'm not much of a talker.
[09:54.540 --> 09:56.800]  This is very surreal for me.
[09:57.080 --> 09:58.180]  Why don't you do that now?
[09:59.040 --> 10:04.840]  Well, you know, if anyone out there wants to give us bandwidth, we can always use it.
[10:05.820 --> 10:09.420]  It feels kind of funny begging from it from halfway around the world.
[10:09.960 --> 10:15.720]  But, you know, email us, or email me, junes at 2600.com.
[10:15.860 --> 10:17.960]  You can find my address, the spelling, on the website.
[10:19.620 --> 10:20.020]  Sorry.
[10:20.120 --> 10:20.420]  I'm sorry.
[10:20.420 --> 10:24.520]  You could also email all of us at O-T-H at 2600.com.
[10:24.820 --> 10:27.040]  Yes, that's probably easier to remember.
[10:27.460 --> 10:29.260]  But, yeah, we can always use help.
[10:29.920 --> 10:32.400]  And maybe I'll hand it off back to Emmanuel.
[10:33.280 --> 10:33.800]  All right.
[10:33.940 --> 10:34.240]  Thank you.
[10:35.500 --> 10:39.000]  We're standing here in a corridor, a very busy corridor, in fact.
[10:39.840 --> 10:43.780]  It's about 1.10, 1.15 or so in the morning.
[10:43.960 --> 10:45.980]  But this place is still packed full of people.
[10:47.160 --> 10:56.640]  There's a room just on the inside where you can get all kinds of food and drink and hang out on the network, watch videos.
[10:57.600 --> 11:00.960]  It's just incredibly cool.
[11:01.220 --> 11:02.420]  You know, laid back.
[11:02.660 --> 11:09.040]  Everybody just sort of doing their own thing and seeing each other and hanging out and going outside.
[11:11.700 --> 11:14.620]  And it's something that I guess I've gotten used to.
[11:14.620 --> 11:24.560]  And as June said, it does have a calming effect just being here in this society where things just get done and people don't seem to stress out over various things.
[11:24.600 --> 11:27.300]  And I just wish more people would experience that.
[11:28.540 --> 11:29.140]  All right.
[11:29.260 --> 11:33.500]  Any other stuff you want to share with us from Germany or should we discuss something?
[11:33.700 --> 11:35.260]  Yeah, well, there's people constantly coming by.
[11:35.400 --> 11:37.500]  We have someone else who's here now.
[11:37.500 --> 11:42.840]  Now, Jacob Aplum, who did a presentation earlier today, was it?
[11:43.040 --> 11:43.180]  Yeah.
[11:43.540 --> 11:43.960]  Okay.
[11:44.020 --> 11:49.680]  He's going to tell us something about what it was he was talking about and his impressions of the conference as well.
[11:50.880 --> 11:54.820]  So, so far, my impressions of the conference are pretty positive.
[11:54.820 --> 11:57.640]  I find this place to be just really enlightening.
[11:57.640 --> 12:07.300]  We've got conversations and open dialogue about politics, community, engaging people who aren't a part of this simple, like, you know, scope of the, quote-unquote, hacker world.
[12:07.620 --> 12:14.260]  We've got everything from, like, hardware art to live music and performances and video projects and social justice issues.
[12:14.260 --> 12:17.000]  And it actually has a really amazing gender balance.
[12:17.860 --> 12:19.360]  It's quite, quite awesome.
[12:19.840 --> 12:27.940]  And today my talk was about traveling into war-torn Iraq and into post-Katrina Houston and New Orleans.
[12:28.640 --> 12:42.880]  So I just discussed the techniques that I used in order to get into Iraq, crossing over the Turkish border, into Kurdistan of Iraq, and what kind of things I needed to do in order to help out in Houston and to help out in New Orleans.
[12:44.500 --> 12:47.140]  Do you want to share maybe briefly some of that with our listeners?
[12:48.040 --> 12:56.740]  Well, as far as crossing over into Iraq, do a lot of research and make some really good contacts because it's kind of dangerous and you could end up with your head cut off.
[12:58.080 --> 13:13.900]  As far as the post-Katrina, work with volunteer organizations that are helping people out and they'll provide you with the documentation you need in order to get across military checkpoints and whatever they don't provide you with, you just need to act like you're in charge.
[13:13.900 --> 13:16.000]  And social engineering will get you the rest of the way.
[13:17.380 --> 13:17.920]  All right.
[13:18.100 --> 13:18.800]  Well, thank you.
[13:19.300 --> 13:19.980]  Yeah, absolutely.
[13:20.120 --> 13:20.580]  Here's a manual.
[13:22.360 --> 13:22.720]  Okay.
[13:22.800 --> 13:23.460]  Thank you very much, Jacob.
[13:24.180 --> 13:27.320]  Hopefully, we'll see you at Hope in New York during panels like that.
[13:27.320 --> 13:39.180]  There are all kinds of really cool panels like the Black Ops of TCPIP or the collateral damage caused by spam and virus filtering.
[13:39.600 --> 13:41.900]  You know, it just goes on and on.
[13:42.000 --> 13:46.340]  And you sort of regret not being able to see all the panels because there are just so many good ones.
[13:46.720 --> 13:50.800]  And, you know, the panels are only a part of the conference.
[13:51.180 --> 13:54.880]  Another part of the conference, which has been absolutely incredible, is the network.
[13:54.880 --> 14:03.240]  And, in fact, our friend Rob is here from Holland, who actually has taken a commanding lead in the network this year.
[14:04.140 --> 14:05.500]  And, coincidentally, it's working.
[14:05.960 --> 14:07.020]  It's working really well.
[14:07.340 --> 14:09.260]  Here's Rob to tell you something about what's going on.
[14:10.300 --> 14:10.900]  Hey, there.
[14:11.180 --> 14:11.520]  Hi, Rob.
[14:12.120 --> 14:13.660]  Actually, I haven't been doing that much.
[14:14.200 --> 14:16.200]  Other people have been doing all the work, really.
[14:16.860 --> 14:18.640]  But it's working remarkably well.
[14:18.740 --> 14:19.880]  We have got the wireless working.
[14:19.880 --> 14:26.820]  We found a commercial vendor, actually, to replace the stuff that we've been doing in previous years with OpenBSD boxes.
[14:27.860 --> 14:31.520]  And this commercial software is relatively well-built.
[14:31.540 --> 14:33.460]  And it detects road access points.
[14:33.480 --> 14:41.720]  And it does all sorts of neat things, which apparently can keep 400 or 500 people on the network and can keep all the interference from happening.
[14:41.720 --> 14:42.640]  And it's really nice.
[14:43.060 --> 14:45.400]  And the wired network's really working really well.
[14:45.500 --> 14:47.480]  And we got tons of bandwidth out of this place.
[14:47.480 --> 14:48.860]  In fact, we got too much bandwidth.
[14:49.720 --> 14:51.800]  We're trying to force people to use more.
[14:51.960 --> 14:52.900]  We're putting posters up.
[14:53.060 --> 14:54.360]  We're asking people to file share.
[14:54.820 --> 15:00.980]  But we're not getting people to use more than maybe half a gigabit of the 20 gigabits that we got out of this place.
[15:02.560 --> 15:05.260]  That's a lot for our listeners who may not know.
[15:05.680 --> 15:11.100]  Yeah, it got sort of to the point of ridiculous when they were asking all their provider friends to help out.
[15:11.240 --> 15:16.100]  And everybody was sort of trying to top each other in coming up with the coolest bandwidth offers.
[15:16.100 --> 15:23.360]  So eventually we ended up with two 10 gigabit links out of the place, which is, by all accounts, insane.
[15:23.540 --> 15:26.300]  It's just the only reason we're doing it is because we can, really.
[15:26.660 --> 15:30.160]  There's no rational reason for having 20 gigabits out of a building.
[15:30.520 --> 15:37.520]  And in many ways, it's really weird because there's mid-sized continents that don't have this amount of bandwidth.
[15:38.700 --> 15:39.440]  But it's fun.
[15:40.080 --> 15:50.780]  I know that I've been trying to get, in New York, three megabits, and it's very hard, which is one 3 out of 20,000 part.
[15:51.360 --> 16:02.180]  Yeah, but the hacker community over here is fairly well infiltrated in the world of internet exchange points, providers, vendors of all sorts of networking and switching gear.
[16:02.180 --> 16:09.260]  So we have fairly little trouble getting insane amounts of gear, which doesn't always lead to a functioning network.
[16:09.460 --> 16:16.160]  You can actually have too many people that know about this stuff and too many people trying to fix every little problem and fixing each other's fixes.
[16:16.880 --> 16:18.340]  So it really depends.
[16:18.340 --> 16:19.320]  But we're having fun.
[16:19.580 --> 16:20.960]  And this time it's all working.
[16:21.580 --> 16:22.100]  All right.
[16:22.140 --> 16:22.640]  Hello, Rob.
[16:23.320 --> 16:23.800]  Yeah.
[16:24.720 --> 16:25.900]  This is at Bernie S.
[16:25.960 --> 16:26.400]  in Philadelphia.
[16:26.400 --> 16:34.160]  Is there a website where our listeners can see what sort of things are going on at the Chaos Computer Club conference?
[16:34.860 --> 16:39.960]  Yeah, the easiest thing is just to do Chaos and 22C3 in Google.
[16:40.500 --> 16:42.820]  That will get you anything about this Congress.
[16:42.980 --> 16:44.540]  It will also get you some of the news pages.
[16:45.800 --> 16:48.080]  So 22C3 is one word, and then Chaos.
[16:48.320 --> 16:49.860]  That gets you all the relevant stuff.
[16:50.960 --> 16:51.420]  Great.
[16:51.760 --> 16:56.120]  And that being the 22nd annual Congress, correct?
[16:56.560 --> 16:58.180]  This is the 22nd, yes.
[16:58.320 --> 17:01.520]  I've only been here since the 4th.
[17:01.780 --> 17:04.640]  So I've actually only been to 18 of them.
[17:05.460 --> 17:06.640]  A newcomer, then.
[17:07.080 --> 17:08.000]  Yeah, I'm a newcomer.
[17:08.980 --> 17:13.160]  No, but it's a strong tradition, and it's an important tradition.
[17:14.240 --> 17:19.320]  This has been there all along since 1984, which is the same year the 2600 started publishing.
[17:20.040 --> 17:22.400]  And it's a very important tradition.
[17:22.400 --> 17:23.920]  This Congress needs to continue.
[17:24.080 --> 17:24.800]  It needs to live.
[17:24.980 --> 17:26.500]  And it's very much alive, too.
[17:27.200 --> 17:30.300]  Last year was way too full, and the building was way too smoky.
[17:30.820 --> 17:34.920]  Most people don't realize this, but 90% of German hackers smoke.
[17:35.340 --> 17:37.200]  So this building was completely...
[17:37.200 --> 17:39.440]  You could basically cut blocks out of the air here.
[17:40.380 --> 17:42.940]  And I left the building almost puking.
[17:43.120 --> 17:44.920]  And many people did, including smokers.
[17:45.100 --> 17:50.020]  So this year, it's a little quieter, I think, mostly because people weren't that comfortable last year.
[17:50.340 --> 17:51.940]  And it's very, very nice.
[17:52.120 --> 17:52.680]  It's very...
[17:52.680 --> 17:57.760]  I've actually had many, many, many useful conversations and interesting conversations.
[17:58.000 --> 17:59.540]  And, yeah, it's important.
[18:00.700 --> 18:04.700]  I did a nice lecture yesterday, or a nice, really, a not-so-nice lecture.
[18:04.880 --> 18:25.240]  I did a lecture under the title, We Lost the War, basically trying to sort of provoke people a little bit into realizing all the stuff that has gone wrong here, and in the world in general, and trying to convince people that if they were to remain productive as activists,
[18:25.240 --> 18:47.200]  they have to realize that even if not a war, a really, really, really large number of very, very important battles have been lost, and that they may need to change the way they are active, the way they see themselves as activists, and that we have to pull together sort of a speech that was demotivating and motivating at the same time,
[18:47.340 --> 18:53.960]  sort of trying to create a watershed moment where people start realizing that it's not the fluffy world anymore that we used to live in.
[18:54.480 --> 18:58.100]  That was sort of my... my yesterday was very much into that thing.
[18:58.440 --> 19:07.160]  And now I'm sort of idling along because there's no network problems for us to solve, and my lecture is already done, so I'm just enjoying myself and talking to all these people.
[19:07.760 --> 19:09.320]  Anything else you've been working on?
[19:09.360 --> 19:12.480]  I know you always have a lot of interesting projects going on.
[19:13.860 --> 19:15.920]  I've been working on mesh networking.
[19:15.960 --> 19:17.900]  That's my sort of hobby project.
[19:18.840 --> 19:29.320]  Just unencrypted, crazy, cheapo, $50 routers that you can use to connect to each other, and then as long as one is connected to the Internet, everybody has a network.
[19:29.760 --> 19:33.620]  But that's my little hobby project, and I'm going to be doing some other crypto stuff soon.
[19:34.760 --> 19:39.440]  But Emmanuel seems to be motioning that he wants the phone back, so I guess I'll say bye and talk to you later.
[19:39.800 --> 19:40.360]  Okay, bye.
[19:40.940 --> 19:41.160]  Bye.
[19:41.160 --> 19:43.560]  Well, actually, I just wanted to ask Rob a question.
[19:43.780 --> 19:44.580]  I didn't want you to leave.
[19:44.680 --> 19:45.060]  Come back, Rob.
[19:45.160 --> 19:45.420]  Come back.
[19:45.760 --> 19:46.100]  Okay.
[19:46.720 --> 20:02.160]  No, it was about your lecture yesterday because I noticed it got quite a lot of kind of passionate response from members of the audience, and I wondered if you have any second thoughts on perhaps the title, saying that we lost the war, perhaps maybe we might lose the war,
[20:02.220 --> 20:07.220]  or we're losing some battles, or just maybe something to give us some hope that all is not lost.
[20:09.280 --> 20:17.540]  Well, in one way, yes, because the press picked up on it in a very negative way, like almost we scored a point in our own goal.
[20:18.460 --> 20:20.420]  However, it got a lot of people thinking.
[20:20.660 --> 20:25.000]  Everybody's still talking about it today, and I wonder if that would have been the case if we had given it any other title.
[20:25.340 --> 20:26.240]  People are shaken.
[20:26.720 --> 20:29.740]  Obviously, people are going, what's going on?
[20:29.820 --> 20:33.480]  Or they're completely upset, or they feel it's not true.
[20:33.480 --> 20:37.140]  And I'd rather have 500 people fighting me that it's not true.
[20:37.220 --> 20:39.900]  Well, then my answer is then, prove that it's not true.
[20:40.280 --> 20:41.100]  Go for it.
[20:41.160 --> 20:44.320]  And we've been trying not to make it a negative-only thing.
[20:44.320 --> 20:50.980]  We've been trying to point to what we feel is successful activism, what you can still do, how you should be doing it.
[20:51.480 --> 21:01.340]  We've been trying to sort of put forward models for the future, models of what we think you can do, and what would fit certain types of personalities.
[21:01.740 --> 21:04.060]  So it wasn't a completely negative thing.
[21:04.240 --> 21:06.420]  Just the title was very negative to get people to think.
[21:09.180 --> 21:09.540]  Okay.
[21:09.680 --> 21:11.380]  Well, Rob, it's always good to see you.
[21:11.520 --> 21:13.900]  And, of course, we'll be seeing you in New York for the H.O.P.
[21:14.020 --> 21:14.380]  Conference.
[21:14.580 --> 21:18.320]  In fact, everybody we've talked to so far will be seeing you in New York at the H.O.P.
[21:18.320 --> 21:18.560]  Conference.
[21:18.740 --> 21:19.540]  One last thing, Rob.
[21:19.800 --> 21:27.660]  Do you think maybe you could give us some words of wisdom, advice to running the conference in the States, something that we could learn from this place?
[21:30.100 --> 21:32.660]  Oh, that's a deep question for so late at night.
[21:34.460 --> 21:37.100]  Words of wisdom for the conference in New York.
[21:38.460 --> 21:40.500]  Yeah, it would be nice if there was more structures.
[21:40.740 --> 21:52.180]  It would be nice if there was more people that started realizing that we need structures, that it's not just Emmanuel doing the conference or the people around Emmanuel, but that we need more groups like that, and that they all need to talk to each other,
[21:52.240 --> 21:54.880]  they all need to pull together, but we need to create structures.
[21:54.880 --> 21:56.580]  We need more people to set stuff up.
[21:58.600 --> 21:58.960]  Okay.
[21:59.200 --> 22:00.100]  Well, thank you so much, Rob.
[22:00.180 --> 22:02.140]  And of course, the planning for HOPE No.
[22:02.220 --> 22:07.560]  6, which takes place on July 21st, 22nd, and 23rd in New York City, is getting underway.
[22:08.160 --> 22:09.620]  And listen to this radio program.
[22:09.760 --> 22:15.720]  Go to the website, www.hope.net, for information as it gets posted in the next few weeks.
[22:16.700 --> 22:24.380]  Before we continue, I just want to make sure that we are still connected to New York, because we did this once before, and we did a 20-minute long piece, without realizing that we were talking to air.
[22:24.380 --> 22:25.680]  Yes, you're still here.
[22:26.060 --> 22:26.880]  Oh, glory be.
[22:27.100 --> 22:29.460]  We keep hearing these occasional touch tones.
[22:29.660 --> 22:31.660]  I'm not sure where they're coming from, but other than that...
[22:31.660 --> 22:38.320]  That's probably coming from our fingers touching the phone as we hand it back and forth, because the keys are just sort of right...
[22:39.380 --> 22:40.180]  What was that?
[22:42.520 --> 22:44.100]  I think this is a demonstration.
[22:44.780 --> 22:45.820]  It seems to be working.
[22:51.340 --> 22:53.040]  That would be German, wouldn't it?
[22:54.560 --> 22:55.040]  Okay.
[22:55.840 --> 22:57.300]  Are we being reconnected?
[22:58.680 --> 22:59.160]  Yes.
[22:59.400 --> 23:00.440]  Yeah, don't do that.
[23:00.720 --> 23:01.460]  I'm sorry.
[23:02.740 --> 23:03.580]  Are we on?
[23:03.880 --> 23:04.820]  Yeah, now you are.
[23:05.140 --> 23:05.500]  Okay.
[23:05.820 --> 23:06.440]  We got some...
[23:06.440 --> 23:09.400]  I don't know what I... I was trying to demonstrate the touch tones that you were hearing.
[23:09.540 --> 23:16.860]  Well, instead what we got was German music with some, like the serendipity singers singing in German or something.
[23:17.340 --> 23:18.100]  German music.
[23:18.320 --> 23:19.400]  Oh, how about that?
[23:19.400 --> 23:20.440]  It was very scary.
[23:20.860 --> 23:21.040]  Okay.
[23:21.120 --> 23:25.120]  Well, I won't do that again, but there's no guarantee that a finger won't hit a key.
[23:25.380 --> 23:30.900]  I think what we're learning is that we should never try and demonstrate why things don't work, because we succeed.
[23:31.400 --> 23:31.600]  Yeah.
[23:32.040 --> 23:34.700]  Things will just not work on their own, and we don't have to demonstrate it.
[23:34.700 --> 23:41.240]  Just listen long enough to our show, to the station, and something is going to break at some point, and you'll hear it live.
[23:41.940 --> 23:45.900]  We have one more person here that we want to talk to, and Tim is here from the Netherlands.
[23:46.480 --> 23:48.500]  He has come to many of these conferences.
[23:48.880 --> 23:50.860]  And Tim, tell us, is this one of the better ones?
[23:52.460 --> 23:53.420]  I think so.
[23:54.240 --> 23:59.500]  Last year was a bit more crowded, but I think it has a nice atmosphere.
[24:00.580 --> 24:02.580]  This year, some changes have been made.
[24:03.200 --> 24:05.040]  The network is working, for one thing.
[24:05.300 --> 24:12.380]  And it takes a bit away of the atmosphere, because if you don't have problems, people start getting bored.
[24:12.380 --> 24:17.660]  And the other thing is, if you don't have network, people actually start talking to each other and socialize.
[24:17.700 --> 24:18.820]  And I think that's a good thing.
[24:19.960 --> 24:20.680]  So, yeah.
[24:22.340 --> 24:25.060]  So less socializing going on, more networking.
[24:26.280 --> 24:29.380]  I'm sorry, you've waited so long to answer that question that I handed the phone back to him.
[24:29.380 --> 24:30.820]  Oh, well, we'll never know the answer.
[24:31.640 --> 24:33.880]  Well, you can ask it again, I'll hand the phone back to him.
[24:33.980 --> 24:34.320]  No, no.
[24:35.220 --> 24:35.820]  I'll get him back.
[24:35.940 --> 24:40.480]  I was just wondering if this means that there's less socializing going on, and more playing on the network.
[24:42.400 --> 24:43.800]  I don't know, to be honest.
[24:44.040 --> 24:49.660]  Because I've been socializing for the last two days, and missing out most of the lectures.
[24:50.080 --> 24:57.700]  Because, you know, you run around here, you run into people, they start talking to you, and then, oh gosh, I missed my lecture again.
[24:58.380 --> 25:03.320]  And so, Rob wasn't able to scare me yesterday, so I'm still happy here.
[25:03.540 --> 25:09.120]  And standing beside him for a couple of minutes also didn't scare me, so that's good.
[25:09.120 --> 25:12.140]  He hasn't been able to scare me yet, I think.
[25:12.360 --> 25:13.340]  We'll have to try harder.
[25:14.140 --> 25:15.340]  Uh, I'll ask him.
[25:17.020 --> 25:18.180]  All right, well, thank you.
[25:18.620 --> 25:19.720]  Okay, thank you too.
[25:21.520 --> 25:23.480]  Actually, Rob did scare me.
[25:23.660 --> 25:24.400]  He shaved his head.
[25:24.840 --> 25:25.580]  Oh, wow.
[25:25.980 --> 25:26.980]  Yeah, so that's...
[25:26.980 --> 25:29.280]  It was kind of scary when I saw him the first time.
[25:29.360 --> 25:31.400]  But he does look good with a completely shaved head.
[25:31.560 --> 25:32.880]  I'm scared just hearing about it.
[25:33.000 --> 25:34.040]  Yeah, all of us.
[25:36.300 --> 25:37.240]  I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.
[25:37.340 --> 25:39.100]  All of us who are scared, just hearing about it.
[25:39.440 --> 25:39.980]  Ah, yes.
[25:40.500 --> 25:44.220]  Um, so, now, that's pretty much everybody who's gathered around here.
[25:44.360 --> 25:51.420]  Of course, I could walk around and give you a tour of the whole place, but I think maybe we should get into some of the news of the day first, if we're even going to do that.
[25:51.580 --> 25:52.880]  You want to be scared then.
[25:52.960 --> 25:54.780]  Uh, yeah, you know, that'll scare us a lot more.
[25:55.300 --> 26:05.140]  Um, and I, you know, something that we neglected to talk about last week because of the, uh, the transit strike, which, for our listeners, has since been settled, and everybody's friends again, and, you know, we got through all that.
[26:05.720 --> 26:08.920]  Um, but something we didn't get to talk about at all was the NSA scandal.
[26:09.320 --> 26:12.000]  And, uh, Bernie, I know you have some information on that.
[26:12.800 --> 26:15.380]  Well, I don't know how much of an NSA scandal it is.
[26:15.480 --> 26:16.840]  It's a White House scandal.
[26:17.180 --> 26:32.340]  Um, anyone who has not been living in a cave, uh, is probably aware that the, uh, president has, uh, authorized, uh, a broad-scale, uh, wiretapping program, uh, a couple of years ago, uh, in this country.
[26:32.620 --> 26:39.940]  And, uh, we're talking about very large amounts of, uh, telephone intercepts in this country.
[26:40.480 --> 26:46.940]  And, uh, the White House has been saying that this is, uh, is done with, uh, a notification of Congress.
[26:46.940 --> 26:56.420]  And I just wanted to read a short quote by, uh, Senator Bob Graham, who was, uh, briefed by the White House on this NSA wiretapping plan about two years ago.
[26:56.680 --> 27:16.020]  And I think it's a good example of, uh, how technological ignorance, which we try to, try to defeat at these conferences that you're at and so forth, technological, uh, ignorance and exploitation by people in position of power is used to commit gross abuses of authority.
[27:16.020 --> 27:17.600]  And here, here's what Senator Bob Graham said.
[27:17.660 --> 27:31.860]  He says, I came out of the room for this briefing with a full sense that we were dealing with a change in technology, but not policy, uh, with new opportunities to intercept overseas calls that passed through U.S.
[27:32.060 --> 27:32.400]  switches.
[27:33.480 --> 27:48.900]  Um, apparently he believed that the eavesdropping would, would, uh, continue to be limited to calls that initiated outside the United States and had a destination outside the United States but were transferred through U.S.-based communication switches.
[27:49.240 --> 28:05.320]  And, uh, so basically these senators and, uh, congressmen that were, that were, that were briefed were kind of hoodwinked and, uh, sort of snowballed with, uh, uh, technical verbiage that, uh, they didn't understand and was probably deliberately confusing and not knowing that,
[28:05.320 --> 28:06.920]  uh, this is U.S.
[28:07.160 --> 28:07.760]  U.S.
[28:07.840 --> 28:08.460]  people, U.S.
[28:08.980 --> 28:14.900]  persons, people of the United States are being eavesdropped on, on a, on a really huge scale in this country now.
[28:15.700 --> 28:22.880]  Um, remains to be seen what's going to happen from this, but, uh, I'm glad the mainstream past is, uh, is covering it well and, uh, it deserves following up.
[28:22.880 --> 28:24.340]  Well, they're not covering it that well.
[28:24.340 --> 28:31.540]  As we mentioned last week, the New York Times delayed reporting the story for, uh, I guess an entire year at the request of the government.
[28:32.940 --> 28:33.540]  Bad news.
[28:33.680 --> 28:34.800]  But at least it's public now.
[28:35.300 --> 28:37.500]  And, uh, I think people should be calling the White House.
[28:37.600 --> 28:39.720]  I think people should be calling the National Security Agency.
[28:40.140 --> 28:45.140]  Uh, I have their telephone numbers here if people want to call to find out if they had been, uh, wiretapped.
[28:45.260 --> 28:46.480]  I don't think they'll tell you.
[28:47.160 --> 28:50.240]  Well, I think that, uh, phone calls would be in order though.
[28:50.420 --> 29:02.340]  I think if the White House gets a lot of phone calls and the National Security Agency gets a lot of phone calls, it's, uh, I don't know if anybody will take notice, but it certainly can't hurt if people get up in arms about this because it's, uh, it's blatantly illegal.
[29:02.560 --> 29:03.420]  It's unconstitutional.
[29:03.840 --> 29:11.480]  And, uh, the President's excuse for bypassing the courts in this wiretapping was that it's faster and quicker that way.
[29:13.440 --> 29:19.980]  Yeah, we know it's faster and quicker to bypass all the laws, and I'm sure the, uh, the Bush administration would just love to do that.
[29:20.160 --> 29:21.320]  So, yeah, I agree, Bernie.
[29:21.320 --> 29:22.900]  We, we, we should be outraged.
[29:22.980 --> 29:24.120]  We should, uh, speak up.
[29:24.340 --> 29:32.760]  I don't know what people are afraid of, and, um, I've talked to a number of people over here about this kind of thing, and they keep asking, okay, what, you know, what it's going to take to wake Americans up?
[29:33.020 --> 29:45.620]  You know, the torture didn't do it, the invasion didn't do it, the bugging, you know, something has to finally get us angry enough to, um, to speak out loudly and actually get some change.
[29:45.620 --> 29:47.240]  So, please, give out that phone number.
[29:47.820 --> 29:55.760]  Well, the, uh, the White House, their telephone number is area code 202-456-1414.
[29:56.440 --> 30:02.300]  And you want to ask for the comment line, unless you want to speak to a specific executive branch office.
[30:04.060 --> 30:04.380]  Hello?
[30:04.720 --> 30:05.060]  What was that?
[30:05.060 --> 30:05.500]  That wasn't me.
[30:06.100 --> 30:06.500]  Oh, okay.
[30:06.840 --> 30:07.200]  Just heard a beep.
[30:07.800 --> 30:15.960]  The, uh, again, the White House is 202-456-1414 to complain about, uh, or to ask if you've been wiretapped in the past couple of years illegally.
[30:15.960 --> 30:25.200]  And the National Security Agency can be reached at area code 301-688-6524.
[30:25.220 --> 30:29.640]  That's area code 301-688-6524.
[30:29.640 --> 30:39.940]  I recommend that everyone listening call the White House and the National Security Agency and ask whether they've been wiretapped over the past two years without a warrant by the National Security Agency.
[30:39.940 --> 30:51.920]  Apparently many thousands, tens of thousands, possibly, probably millions of calls have been intercepted because these are direct taps into the major switches in this country and the main trunk lines in this country.
[30:52.000 --> 30:54.180]  These aren't just taps on individual lines.
[30:54.340 --> 31:00.420]  This is, this is like tapping all interstate highways of our communication systems as far as telephones go.
[31:01.020 --> 31:02.060]  So, um...
[31:02.060 --> 31:03.000]  Bernie, I have a question.
[31:03.440 --> 31:15.820]  Um, I, I know a lot of people have, have talked about things like Echelon in the past and basically the idea that if you say certain key words, the NSA is instantly going to, uh, start recording.
[31:16.280 --> 31:27.260]  Um, maybe people have become kind of numbed by thinking that way, by thinking that these things are commonplace, and they're saying to themselves, yeah, you know, big deal, this is what they do.
[31:29.100 --> 31:33.460]  Well, maybe, but the fact is that this is grossly illegal.
[31:33.460 --> 31:46.940]  This is against federal law to have your, your privacy invaded without, uh, you know, having your telephone conversations recorded and monitored without, uh, without a court's approval.
[31:47.180 --> 31:57.540]  And there's a court specifically set up for this type of thing, the, uh, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which, uh, will give, has almost never said no.
[31:57.540 --> 32:04.500]  Out of 19,000 applications has said no four times and reconsidered those, those, approve most of them.
[32:04.660 --> 32:09.880]  Yes, I want to apologize to our, our listeners for exaggerating last week when I said they had never.
[32:10.180 --> 32:12.320]  Yeah, there was a huge exaggeration saying they never say no.
[32:12.500 --> 32:14.600]  Four times out of 19,000 times they've said no.
[32:14.720 --> 32:18.040]  And then of those, most, most of them they've, they've reconsidered and said yes.
[32:18.260 --> 32:20.840]  But, uh, there's already a procedure in place for this.
[32:20.840 --> 32:34.200]  And even if the White House doesn't have time to, to go to that court, they're permitted under federal law to get a wiretap right away and go to the court within 72 hours to, uh, to get their warrant.
[32:34.380 --> 32:38.580]  And if they're turned, turned down that warrant, there's a, there's another court of appeal.
[32:38.700 --> 32:39.520]  They can appeal that.
[32:39.680 --> 32:41.620]  And if that doesn't work, they go to the Supreme Court.
[32:41.640 --> 32:44.380]  So they have not gone through the legal procedures they have to.
[32:44.760 --> 32:46.740]  Well, Bernie, I have a question here.
[32:46.820 --> 32:48.840]  Now, this is the secret court you're talking about, correct?
[32:48.840 --> 32:51.540]  Yes, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
[32:51.740 --> 32:59.440]  So we have this secret court that almost always, or in fact really does, always grant the, the request for wiretaps.
[33:00.840 --> 33:04.040]  And that's considered to be the democratic process?
[33:04.200 --> 33:07.340]  I mean, is it really any different than just not having the court at all?
[33:07.760 --> 33:13.460]  Well, a lot of, a lot of lawyers who know this stuff better than I do say that that court in and of itself is unconstitutional.
[33:14.240 --> 33:25.600]  But the fact is it exists, and that the, that the White House is bypassing it is, sort of, lays bare this White House's respect for the law.
[33:25.840 --> 33:38.960]  We hear a lot from this administration about the rule of law, but clearly it has no respect for the law by bypassing this court and wiretapping huge numbers of American telephone conversations without bothering to follow legal procedures.
[33:38.960 --> 33:42.380]  Do we know how the secret court came to be in the first place?
[33:43.540 --> 33:45.300]  It's about 25 years old.
[33:45.460 --> 33:54.820]  It came out after the Vietnam War in response to the government, federal government spying on a lot of citizens that it labeled security risks.
[33:54.960 --> 33:57.820]  And these citizens were primarily anti-war protestors.
[33:58.220 --> 34:10.220]  And it thought that anti-war protestors were a security risk to the country, much as may be going on right now where the White House may consider anti-war protestors today as security risks.
[34:12.020 --> 34:20.220]  So, Congress became aware of the FBI wiretapping a lot of activist groups, anti-war groups, about 25 years ago.
[34:20.580 --> 34:24.480]  And there was a big scandal, just like it's going on now, and I hope it gets bigger.
[34:25.020 --> 34:43.740]  And this special court was put together to sort of make it easier to get the wiretaps, but to at least have some judicial oversight, even if it's just sort of a veneer of authority that really shouldn't be there under the Constitution.
[34:44.040 --> 34:53.440]  But that this White House would bypass even that veneer of legal procedure just shows that it has no respect for the rule of law.
[34:54.980 --> 35:13.560]  The FISA law was set up in response to something that I'm sure you know about Bernie called Project Shamrock, where the NSA would get copies from all of the international telegraph operators of all the cables that went across the seas, that went internationally.
[35:14.020 --> 35:19.340]  And this program was eventually discovered, and people were kind of shocked.
[35:19.340 --> 35:31.000]  And so they set up this kind of wishy-washy court system to, you know, as you said, set up a veneer of oversight.
[35:31.320 --> 35:33.880]  And now even that is being ignored.
[35:35.120 --> 35:36.540]  Because it's faster and quicker.
[35:37.440 --> 35:47.400]  One of the side effects of the whole NSA scandal, of course, is the non-passage by the Senate of the extension of the Patriot Act.
[35:47.900 --> 35:50.800]  Since then, of course, it's been extended for, I believe, one month.
[35:52.100 --> 35:57.980]  But it was originally supposed to be a permanent extension, and that seems to have been a casualty.
[35:57.980 --> 36:01.120]  So might we already be seeing some positive effects to this?
[36:01.880 --> 36:04.500]  Actually, I think it was five or six months it was extended.
[36:04.740 --> 36:06.120]  But yes, you're absolutely right.
[36:06.140 --> 36:23.240]  I think the timing of this, even though the New York Times is about a year late in breaking the story, at the request of the White House, of all things, the fact that this story came out just before the Patriot Act reauthorization was taking place, had a clear political effect.
[36:23.240 --> 36:26.980]  And I think the White House has a black eye on this.
[36:27.100 --> 36:33.920]  And we need to look very carefully in five or six months when the Patriot Act is up for renewal to make sure that this is not forgotten.
[36:34.120 --> 36:36.500]  I just want to read a bit from a document.
[36:36.740 --> 36:43.340]  This document comes courtesy of the Federation of American Scientists, which did a lot of great work on these sorts of issues.
[36:43.540 --> 36:52.220]  This is a declassified but formerly secret document about the mistakes that are made under these FISA wiretaps.
[36:52.220 --> 37:01.620]  And just one example from this document is that a field office secured a FISA order which authorized the coverage, which I guess means tapping, of a target's cell phone.
[37:02.040 --> 37:10.000]  Unknown to the field office, sometime after the order, the target gave up his cell phone, and the target's cell phone number was assigned by the cell phone carrier to a new person.
[37:10.260 --> 37:15.500]  This new owner spoke a language other than the language spoken by the original target.
[37:15.500 --> 37:23.200]  And so when the language specialist listened to the FISA tape and heard a new language, the specialist reported it to the agent working the case.
[37:23.340 --> 37:29.660]  However, nothing was done for a substantial period of time, and timely report was not made to FBI headquarters.
[37:29.660 --> 37:37.880]  The owner of the cell phone number, the new owner of the cell phone number, was therefore the target of unauthorized electronic surveillance for a substantial period of time.
[37:38.040 --> 37:45.040]  And this is just, it goes up to a couple pages, this document, of just a few errors.
[37:45.380 --> 37:50.660]  These aren't even the legitimate things where they're spying on people without permission.
[37:50.840 --> 37:51.980]  They're just being careless.
[37:51.980 --> 37:57.020]  There's a good quote from our attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez.
[37:57.960 --> 38:16.720]  He said that this congressional measure that gave the president power to act out in wartime, gave the president the authority to, quote, engage in this kind of signals intelligence.
[38:17.000 --> 38:21.380]  That's a term of art in the intelligence community, signals intelligence.
[38:22.420 --> 38:25.360]  And that indicates that they're doing this on a broad scale.
[38:25.540 --> 38:38.560]  When you're talking about signals intelligence, you're talking about digital data on a large scale, analyzing data signals, which is what telephone calls become when they're sent over trunk lines, that sort of thing.
[38:40.140 --> 38:48.260]  If the attorney general was referring to individual phone calls, he would have been referring to what's called communications intelligence, not signals intelligence.
[38:48.840 --> 38:51.800]  Communications intelligence is monitoring a single conversation.
[38:52.080 --> 39:11.080]  So the terminology SIGINT, S-I-G-I-N-T, that the attorney general used, instead of using the term comment, communications intelligence, that's an interesting little slip of the tongue indicating that this is really done on a much larger scale than just individual phone calls being intercepted.
[39:13.020 --> 39:24.660]  All right, well, now that we've scared everybody, I guess maybe it's time to give us phone numbers out one more time for people to call up and demand some knowledge from the people who supposedly represent us.
[39:24.660 --> 39:28.180]  Okay, the White House, again, their telephone number is...
[39:28.180 --> 39:34.060]  The main switchboard at the White House is 202-456-1414.
[39:34.700 --> 39:44.040]  And the National Security Agency's telephone number is area code 301-688-6524.
[39:44.040 --> 39:46.540]  I urge our listeners to call both of those numbers.
[39:47.120 --> 39:55.300]  Demand to know if their telephone conversations were illegally wiretapped over the past two years under this new NSA program.
[39:55.880 --> 39:57.500]  It's not only telephone calls, too.
[39:57.520 --> 39:59.060]  It's also e-mails, correct?
[39:59.340 --> 40:02.000]  Yes, e-mails and really all manner of...
[40:02.000 --> 40:06.440]  There's not a lot of telegram traffic going on, but that as well, as Mike had mentioned.
[40:07.320 --> 40:10.000]  E-mail traffic, basically all electronic traffic.
[40:10.160 --> 40:15.800]  Telephone conversations seem to be what was bypassed.
[40:15.940 --> 40:24.820]  There was a rule that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court does not address electronic communications other than voice, I don't believe.
[40:24.920 --> 40:29.320]  It might address telegraph, but it doesn't really address e-mail, because the court was established before e-mail existed.
[40:30.520 --> 40:36.360]  That was really the leapfrog, the bypassing of the legal procedures as pertains to phone calls.
[40:36.440 --> 40:39.800]  Yes, e-mails are being intercepted en masse as well.
[40:40.660 --> 40:41.380]  All right.
[40:41.840 --> 40:46.280]  I'd like to take some phone calls, but first, there's a couple other stories we should get to.
[40:47.160 --> 40:50.420]  Along these lines, something is happening in the United Kingdom.
[40:51.040 --> 40:57.900]  Britain is going to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded.
[40:58.300 --> 41:03.180]  A new national surveillance system is going to hold the records for at least two years.
[41:03.180 --> 41:10.080]  Basically, what they're going to be doing is using a network of cameras that automatically read every passing license plate number.
[41:10.340 --> 41:19.440]  And the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movement so that the police and security services can analyze any journey a driver has made over several years.
[41:19.440 --> 41:20.580]  Oh, my God.
[41:20.700 --> 41:23.120]  This is like easy pass everywhere.
[41:23.800 --> 41:32.800]  And they'll be able to say, okay, you went to the store at 2.30 at this time, so maybe you could have killed this person, or maybe you could have been at this meeting, or God knows what.
[41:32.980 --> 41:38.280]  My biggest fear is that the public in England won't object strongly enough.
[41:38.280 --> 41:41.120]  This will become something that is a way of life.
[41:41.260 --> 41:45.480]  And as all things happen, once it starts in one country, it's going to move to other countries.
[41:45.720 --> 41:48.200]  And before you know it, it'll be as common as caller ID.
[41:49.460 --> 41:55.800]  One thing that's interesting about this system is, again, it violates the laws of the country in which it's being proposed.
[41:55.800 --> 42:04.240]  Because the UK has something called the Data Protection Act, which is supposed to limit the data that is collected on individuals.
[42:04.440 --> 42:08.980]  And if this program goes forward, then it will, of course, contravene that law.
[42:10.080 --> 42:23.580]  For listeners who don't really comprehend the scope of this program in the UK, this is going to store the details of 35 million license plate reads per day.
[42:23.580 --> 42:26.800]  So this is like OCR, optical character recognition technology.
[42:27.520 --> 42:33.200]  35 million hits a day they're going to record and store in this database for years, apparently.
[42:33.460 --> 42:38.440]  And what the UK government is trying to do is do pattern analysis.
[42:38.920 --> 42:46.380]  Basically, look and see what license plates were in the vicinity of other license plates at certain times.
[42:46.380 --> 42:55.920]  And they can build these interesting data structures using techniques called data mining to establish patterns of who's associating with whom.
[42:56.120 --> 43:09.340]  And that's what the NSA and the White House are doing, too, with this wiretapping program is, even without listening to the calls, they can determine by what numbers call which other numbers on what frequency and how often and when, that sort of thing.
[43:09.340 --> 43:13.820]  They can build patterns of behavior to see, to establish group activity.
[43:14.040 --> 43:23.020]  Like, you and I would talk, perhaps, and the group maybe that are on this radio show could talk with each other and they could establish that, hey, all these people are communicating about something.
[43:23.100 --> 43:23.800]  There must be a group.
[43:23.880 --> 43:24.340]  There must be a group.
[43:24.640 --> 43:24.720]  There must be something.
[43:25.440 --> 43:27.160]  That sort of thing is what's going on.
[43:27.160 --> 43:38.820]  And, you know, if nothing else, Bernie, that's something that can definitely be used to practice those skills, to hone in on the data mining abilities of various entities.
[43:39.220 --> 43:53.680]  They're taking something which I would consider to be not too essential, you know, something that they could sort of mess around with for a couple of years and sort of get better at it and then use it for something they really want to use it for, like,
[43:53.680 --> 44:03.860]  you know, monitoring every single phone line in every single country and figuring out who's talking to which suspicious people and what kind of...
[44:04.480 --> 44:05.040]  Hello?
[44:05.520 --> 44:07.740]  I just see this as a very troubling step.
[44:08.280 --> 44:10.040]  You cut out for a moment there.
[44:12.480 --> 44:14.160]  I'm sure you could fill in the blanks.
[44:14.800 --> 44:15.140]  Indeed.
[44:16.360 --> 44:20.320]  Well, I hope it got people sufficiently upset about this and that they called the White House and the NSA.
[44:20.640 --> 44:25.040]  And, of course, if your phone's not currently being tapped, then, well, maybe this will get you on the list.
[44:25.820 --> 44:28.620]  We have a couple of letters that we'd like to read.
[44:28.940 --> 44:34.200]  Again, our email address is OTH at 2600.com.
[44:34.760 --> 44:38.120]  And, please, if any part of me cuts out, fill in the blanks again.
[44:38.120 --> 44:42.400]  Our snail mail address is off the hook.
[44:42.660 --> 44:48.160]  Care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street.
[44:48.720 --> 44:49.680]  10th floor.
[44:50.320 --> 44:51.100]  New York.
[44:51.660 --> 44:52.360]  New York.
[44:52.680 --> 44:55.460]  1-0-0-0-5.
[44:56.180 --> 44:57.760]  That went surprisingly smoothly.
[44:58.600 --> 44:59.580]  This is Emanuel Gosti.
[44:59.580 --> 45:04.680]  I'm standing in Berlin at the 22nd Annual Chaos Communications Congress.
[45:05.540 --> 45:06.920]  It's a snowy night outside.
[45:06.920 --> 45:14.660]  I'm staring out the window and standing in the corridor where hackers from all over the world keep passing by looking at us with curiosity.
[45:15.240 --> 45:19.520]  A couple of thousand people here, even at this hour, which is about almost 2 o'clock in the morning.
[45:20.500 --> 45:22.840]  Let's read a couple of letters, then we'll go to some phone calls.
[45:22.840 --> 45:25.520]  It's 212-209-2900.
[45:26.200 --> 45:30.740]  This person writes in with a website that they're scared of.
[45:30.880 --> 45:38.480]  It's called www.tndatabase.com, T-N as in telephone number, database.com.
[45:38.480 --> 45:50.940]  What you do is you plug in your area code and your exchange and also the first two numbers of the last four digits of the phone number.
[45:50.980 --> 45:55.240]  And it will tell you who owns that particular phone number.
[45:55.280 --> 45:57.340]  Not the subscriber, but the phone company.
[45:57.500 --> 46:02.020]  And it will also say how many records exist on that phone number.
[46:02.020 --> 46:07.100]  I'm not sure about that last part, but everything up until that point is fairly harmless.
[46:07.100 --> 46:14.160]  And I noticed this site is run by someone who's involved with phone enthusiasm, let's put it that way.
[46:14.460 --> 46:25.420]  So I think what we have here is a fairly harmless database that just kind of maps out prefixes, tells you various exchanges are owned by certain phone companies.
[46:25.580 --> 46:27.920]  Of course, that doesn't really mean much anymore with portability.
[46:28.680 --> 46:35.180]  One exchange can be owned by... or a phone number in an exchange can be owned by many different phone companies.
[46:35.820 --> 46:40.560]  But I guess it could scare people, especially that last part that says how many records exist on a phone number.
[46:40.620 --> 46:42.220]  I haven't yet been able to figure out what that means.
[46:42.300 --> 46:44.020]  Has anyone else played with this at all?
[46:44.120 --> 46:56.640]  My guess is that it doesn't mean anything because I took a look at it and I noticed that every possible ten-digit number was in there, including numbers that start with 911 and other things that couldn't possibly be valid.
[46:56.640 --> 47:00.980]  And they all had varying numbers of this records functionality.
[47:01.580 --> 47:13.180]  Well, I think the list was generated by simply making every possible number that could exist, regardless of whether or not 911 would never be an exchange.
[47:13.440 --> 47:18.440]  But the exchanges that do exist, I found to be, for the most part, correct.
[47:18.680 --> 47:21.140]  Except for the fact that portability has made it all rather useless.
[47:21.140 --> 47:33.540]  For instance, if you look at a particular exchange in 917, you might see Sprint PCS as the owner, or you might see Verizon Wireless as the owner, but incorrectly to list every single number in that exchange as the owner.
[47:33.820 --> 47:35.880]  And, of course, that's no longer true.
[47:36.240 --> 47:39.740]  It would have been useful a couple of years ago, and I'm sure that's when this list first came about.
[47:39.920 --> 47:41.500]  But it's nothing to be scared of.
[47:42.560 --> 47:49.180]  You could easily make the same list by chopping off the last four digits, and it would, as far as I can tell, contain just as much information.
[47:49.860 --> 47:51.260]  You're probably right about that.
[47:51.460 --> 48:00.940]  Something that's of much more concern, though, comes to us from another listener, Bug Dave, who writes in saying, this isn't the first time I've run into this.
[48:01.060 --> 48:07.000]  When trying to view a trailer for the movie Grandma's Boy, it asks me to type in personal information.
[48:07.300 --> 48:15.820]  No matter what fake info I type in, it doesn't let me view the trailer, and responds with an error that says your information cannot be verified against our databases.
[48:16.220 --> 48:24.980]  And just to give a little background here, this is a trailer for a movie that's rated R, and I believe you have to, according to them, you have to be above a certain age to be able to view the trailer.
[48:27.000 --> 48:32.540]  Now, he continues, I don't really want to enter my real information here, but I'm tempted to see if it would work.
[48:33.420 --> 48:34.940]  Well, I can tell you...
[48:36.320 --> 48:38.340]  I don't know what you can... what can you tell us?
[48:39.220 --> 48:39.740]  I'm sorry?
[48:39.940 --> 48:42.320]  You cut out, so I was wondering what you can tell us.
[48:42.640 --> 48:52.100]  Okay, well, basically, we experimented with this a little bit over here, and we discovered that, yes, in fact, there is some kind of database being looked up here.
[48:52.100 --> 49:01.660]  We put in fake information, put in a fake name, a real zip code, a real birth date, and got the same message that this writer says he got.
[49:01.900 --> 49:11.420]  And then we found some poor sucker who didn't mind giving out his real information straight off a driver's license with real name, date of birth, and zip code.
[49:11.420 --> 49:13.000]  And sure enough, we were let in.
[49:13.340 --> 49:18.740]  This movie company, I'm not sure which movie company it is, but you can go there,
[49:21.940 --> 49:32.840]  www.grandmasboymovie.com, G-R-A-N-D-M-A-S-B-O-Y-M-O-V-I-E.com, and you'll see for yourself that it asks you for a name, a zip code, and a birth date.
[49:32.840 --> 49:40.980]  If you give it a real set of information that comes right off a driver's license someplace, you'll get in.
[49:41.020 --> 49:42.680]  If you don't, you won't get in.
[49:42.840 --> 49:47.560]  So we have, apparently, Hollywood tapping into the Department of Motor Vehicles.
[49:47.680 --> 49:49.720]  I mean, that's what I would guess this is.
[49:49.720 --> 49:52.660]  I can't imagine where else this information could be coming from.
[49:52.760 --> 49:59.620]  And I just wonder, who gave them this information, who gave them the right to have this information and to be able to look it up like this?
[49:59.620 --> 50:00.820]  It's really, really scary.
[50:00.820 --> 50:04.840]  Rental car companies have been doing this for several years now.
[50:04.980 --> 50:11.560]  Rental car companies have, apparently, direct access to DMV databases across the United States.
[50:12.000 --> 50:14.240]  So they've been verifying this stuff as well.
[50:14.740 --> 50:25.260]  So, apparently, the state governments just don't care about their citizens' privacy and are just selling this private information to corporations.
[50:25.260 --> 50:38.040]  But, you know, Bernie, it's a big difference between a movie company and a company that rents cars when they want to know, I guess, you know, if the person really has a license and if the information on it is correct.
[50:38.100 --> 50:41.240]  I'm not saying that's necessarily right either.
[50:41.700 --> 50:46.400]  But it's a big step to suddenly have this information on an entertainment site.
[50:46.400 --> 50:52.940]  It just definitely doesn't fall under the need to know that driving does.
[50:54.540 --> 50:58.540]  We're swiftly running out of time here, so I'm wondering if we should take a few phone calls.
[50:58.740 --> 50:59.860]  Let's take some phone calls.
[50:59.860 --> 51:06.060]  The number here is 212-209-2900 and we are in country code 1, if you're not.
[51:06.980 --> 51:09.720]  So we'll just wait a moment for people to start calling.
[51:10.760 --> 51:13.380]  And we'll start over here.
[51:13.480 --> 51:14.240]  Hello, you're on the air.
[51:15.120 --> 51:16.320]  Hey, how is everybody?
[51:17.060 --> 51:21.920]  Well, Emmanuel, isn't it nice to be in a country that isn't full of fundamentalist fascist freaks?
[51:22.720 --> 51:25.020]  Well, thanks for your report back on the conference.
[51:25.020 --> 51:30.480]  And, you know, your friend that you put on, I forgot his name, Red Burt, I'm not sure, the one who depressed everybody.
[51:31.140 --> 51:36.040]  But I thought he was making some valuable points about creating structures that activists can use.
[51:36.620 --> 51:47.420]  And, you know, actually, indie media was supposed to be a structure like that supporting resistance movements and a global sort of space for strategy and mobilization and invention.
[51:47.720 --> 51:55.020]  But, unfortunately, the feds and authorities also recognize the value and potential of the network and really worked to compromise it.
[51:55.580 --> 51:59.400]  And, you know, consensus was supposed to be some kind of a safeguard.
[51:59.420 --> 52:06.020]  But authoritarian tendencies and people who are more interested in power took over in some cases.
[52:06.220 --> 52:09.280]  And, well, in tech speak, the user interface has become really flawed.
[52:09.500 --> 52:15.220]  And that makes it hard to have a viable network, which we, as your friend said, need more than ever in these times.
[52:15.500 --> 52:16.820]  So I just wanted to make that point.
[52:16.840 --> 52:20.600]  It's too bad, especially here in New York, that's been a problem with the indie media here.
[52:20.600 --> 52:22.760]  Is there indie media in Europe?
[52:24.100 --> 52:25.420]  I think she said New York.
[52:26.300 --> 52:28.320]  Yeah, indie media is a global structure, yes.
[52:28.760 --> 52:33.180]  Yeah, but do indie media organizations in Europe operate differently?
[52:33.340 --> 52:42.360]  Because we know that hacker conferences organizations work differently, somewhat better, perhaps, in Europe.
[52:43.040 --> 52:49.840]  I'm wondering if the indie media groups work better in Europe than they do in the U.S.
[52:49.840 --> 52:52.160]  It's a local collective, isn't it, Emmanuel?
[52:52.420 --> 52:56.500]  And we do have some common principles of unity that are supposed to bind us.
[52:56.620 --> 53:00.840]  But they're not foolproof, and people are able to manipulate and take advantage.
[53:01.020 --> 53:01.400]  It's too bad.
[53:01.480 --> 53:05.720]  We need a viable information network to support resistance movements.
[53:06.040 --> 53:07.500]  So thank you for letting me share that.
[53:07.960 --> 53:08.180]  All right.
[53:08.240 --> 53:08.520]  Well, thank you.
[53:08.520 --> 53:09.080]  Thanks for calling.
[53:10.020 --> 53:13.500]  Mike, did you want to add anything to that as far as the structure in other cities?
[53:14.320 --> 53:27.700]  Well, I can't speak to cities I haven't lived in, but I think the structure of indie media is designed to create a democratic space for people to talk.
[53:27.940 --> 53:37.240]  And there are inevitably conflicts that arise, but I am not certain that I agree with the caller's assertation that things are fundamentally flawed.
[53:37.240 --> 53:43.860]  Well, I think it's very important also to say that, you know, as you say, there are going to be conflicts.
[53:44.080 --> 53:51.900]  There's going to be all sorts of disagreements and things that many hours of discussion will be spent upon.
[53:51.900 --> 54:08.560]  But as Rob was telling us before, you know, with his lecture that the war has been lost, you know, maybe it's better for us to address these issues and, you know, come together and resolve them.
[54:08.580 --> 54:12.780]  Because otherwise we're going to be completely factionalized forever.
[54:12.780 --> 54:15.280]  I think that's been our biggest weakness so far.
[54:15.440 --> 54:17.620]  All these all these nasty things are happening around us.
[54:17.980 --> 54:26.220]  And the vast majority of groups that I'm familiar with, including many at WBAI, spend all the time just fighting amongst themselves.
[54:26.560 --> 54:30.680]  And believe me, the people on the other side, the really evil people love this.
[54:30.680 --> 54:39.300]  They love the fact that so many free thinking people are free thinking to such an extent that they never really get to the big issues.
[54:39.440 --> 54:45.560]  They spend so much time fighting amongst themselves and not really devoting time to fighting the real enemy.
[54:46.420 --> 54:48.100]  All right, let's take another call.
[54:49.540 --> 54:50.620]  Hello, you're on the air.
[54:52.880 --> 54:53.360]  Hello?
[54:53.700 --> 54:54.780]  Yeah, here, here.
[54:55.080 --> 54:57.920]  Oh, what an excellent point, you know.
[54:57.920 --> 55:01.800]  But listen, this is a very important program.
[55:02.140 --> 55:02.580]  Hello?
[55:02.980 --> 55:05.320]  Please turn your radio, down or off.
[55:05.460 --> 55:06.220]  Yes, I just did.
[55:06.600 --> 55:08.860]  You guys have an important role.
[55:08.980 --> 55:16.900]  Now, my question is, first of all, considering that most people didn't understand about Echelon.
[55:16.900 --> 55:23.720]  I mean, people who were reading Nexus magazine knew about it years before, when was it?
[55:23.780 --> 55:27.160]  In the early, about 2000, when CNN did a report on it.
[55:27.220 --> 55:28.700]  But there wasn't much after that.
[55:28.740 --> 55:34.060]  So my suggestion is, is that this is a lot bigger because they already had Echelon.
[55:34.200 --> 55:42.280]  And somebody, perhaps next week, you need to explain that in terms of how they got around the league, the law, by using other countries.
[55:42.280 --> 55:46.620]  So England would spy on us, and Australia would, you know, that type of thing.
[55:46.820 --> 55:49.260]  And also, Emmanuel, let's have a program.
[55:49.540 --> 55:54.140]  When you have call waiting, it's very interesting.
[55:54.140 --> 55:59.320]  I remember Kevin Michnick was on the air with Art Bell, and it was so cool.
[55:59.320 --> 56:04.500]  From where he was, he was able to call one of Art's phones, and it came up the FBI.
[56:04.820 --> 56:08.900]  And all sorts of weird things can come up on your caller ID.
[56:09.020 --> 56:12.660]  So we need to have a program around that.
[56:12.840 --> 56:15.140]  But also, explain to people.
[56:15.140 --> 56:20.060]  I don't think most people understand what Echelon was and how that was going on.
[56:20.360 --> 56:22.380]  And I'll listen over the air.
[56:22.380 --> 56:23.380]  I appreciate you guys.
[56:23.380 --> 56:24.560]  You have an important role.
[56:24.560 --> 56:33.820]  And let us hear about how we can call the White House and the NSA and speak to them about the process of getting our information without getting further into the loop.
[56:33.900 --> 56:34.860]  And I'll listen over the air.
[56:34.920 --> 56:35.160]  Okay.
[56:35.280 --> 56:36.700]  Let us try to answer those questions.
[56:37.320 --> 56:39.200]  Bernie, you want to tackle the Echelon part?
[56:40.220 --> 56:41.220]  Just very briefly.
[56:41.240 --> 56:42.240]  We're almost out of time.
[56:44.500 --> 56:46.300]  We seem to have lost Bernie, actually.
[56:46.840 --> 56:47.640]  Bernie's been lost?
[56:47.740 --> 56:47.920]  Yes.
[56:47.920 --> 56:48.340]  Oh, my goodness.
[56:48.560 --> 56:49.700]  Who would like to tackle Echelon?
[56:49.700 --> 56:58.940]  Well, I think one thing that distinguishes Echelon from the current situation is that the way they got around the law this time was by simply ignoring it.
[56:59.040 --> 57:06.980]  So it's very distinct from going through all kinds of shenanigans to get around the law, as they did with the Echelon program.
[57:07.560 --> 57:09.960]  It's bad enough they changed the law so much.
[57:10.120 --> 57:15.700]  You know, they make things like the Patriot Act, and they're able to just get things they never could have gotten 10 or 20 years ago.
[57:15.700 --> 57:18.620]  But now, you know, they're not even going to bother doing that.
[57:18.780 --> 57:22.000]  They're just going to jump right over it and bypass it.
[57:22.580 --> 57:22.820]  All right.
[57:22.940 --> 57:24.420]  We need to wrap up, I guess.
[57:24.520 --> 57:25.760]  Any closing thoughts for us?
[57:25.900 --> 57:27.560]  Well, let me just quickly answer that other question.
[57:27.720 --> 57:31.460]  Yes, spoofing caller ID is something that's very common, very easy.
[57:31.800 --> 57:34.200]  And, yeah, you can make calls appear to be coming from any place.
[57:34.260 --> 57:36.320]  It's something we've talked about at many of our conferences.
[57:37.200 --> 57:37.800]  Closing thoughts?
[57:37.800 --> 57:41.640]  Well, it's another fun year here at the Chaos Communications Congress in Berlin.
[57:42.440 --> 57:45.740]  If you haven't made it this year, make plans to come next year.
[57:45.940 --> 57:50.900]  I guarantee it will be held on the same days here in Berlin, December 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th.
[57:51.160 --> 57:56.860]  And please make plans to come to our conference in New York City, July 21st, 22nd, and 23rd.
[57:56.960 --> 57:57.580]  It's called HOPE No.
[57:57.700 --> 57:57.940]  6.
[57:58.460 --> 58:01.580]  Information is going to be posted at www.hope.net.
[58:01.600 --> 58:06.740]  We're looking for good speakers, good topics of all sorts, and ideas on things we can do.
[58:06.740 --> 58:10.860]  Alright, I just wanted to thank Ken Gale for engineering for us this week.
[58:11.200 --> 58:13.580]  And we'll see our listeners next week.
[58:13.580 --> 58:14.940]  !
[58:26.880 --> 58:28.280]  Yes!
[58:28.400 --> 58:28.940]  Hey!
[58:34.240 --> 58:34.940]  Hey!
[58:34.940 --> 58:37.380]  Counting out the mighty...
[58:37.380 --> 58:40.000]  ...i meo teo langa.
[58:41.540 --> 58:44.780]  Waka pele pele matehaloto...
[58:44.780 --> 58:46.480]  Uwo, waka malo...
[58:48.340 --> 58:49.140]  Uwo,
[58:53.580 --> 58:55.040]  uwa...
[58:55.040 --> 58:57.920]  Uwa, waka peena peena puti o langa.
[58:58.380 --> 58:59.020]  Anama.
[59:00.200 --> 59:02.540]  Uwo, ulu lepe kaita...
[59:03.260 --> 59:04.480]  Te aloha...
[59:04.480 --> 59:06.640]  Mokea mopele ki teo mighty...
[59:07.200 --> 59:11.240]  Pictures you're życie, this is the second one.
[59:12.100 --> 59:15.260]  It takes all the answers but questions.
[59:19.730 --> 59:22.220]  This is the first one.
[59:26.460 --> 59:31.260]  This is first sentence.
[59:31.260 --> 59:35.840]  And this is the second sentence.
[59:36.460 --> 59:39.300]  And this is the second sentence.
[01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:09.460]  This is the second one.
[01:00:45.170 --> 01:00:48.410]  We are going to die.
[01:00:50.750 --> 01:01:00.470]  Can you aloha?
[01:01:00.470 --> 01:01:01.090]  V.
[01:01:01.290 --> 01:01:01.790]  We are back.
[01:01:06.570 --> 01:01:06.970]  V.
[01:01:06.970 --> 01:01:28.580]  We are back.