[00:00.000 --> 00:01.100]  WBAI.
[00:01.320 --> 00:03.400]  212-209-2950.
[00:03.620 --> 00:13.220]  Next week on Tuesday, we will be having an extended WBAI evening news premium program where we'll be asking for your support.
[00:13.220 --> 00:19.360]  And we have our WBAI premium package on domestic spying that we offered at the last fundraising drive.
[00:19.360 --> 00:20.160]  That's up again.
[00:20.360 --> 00:22.820]  And, of course, you know that issue has not gone away.
[00:23.020 --> 00:25.080]  212-209-2950.
[00:25.080 --> 00:27.940]  It is now 7 o'clock plus 20 seconds.
[00:27.940 --> 00:31.640]  It is time to go to the off-the-hook folks.
[00:31.640 --> 00:33.480]  And we thank those who have called.
[00:33.620 --> 00:36.260]  Those who haven't, please pick up that phone and dial it right now.
[00:36.420 --> 00:37.560]  Thank you and good night.
[00:38.300 --> 00:42.120]  And it's 7 o'clock, which means it's time for Off the Hook.
[00:48.200 --> 00:52.660]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.640 --> 00:58.100]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[00:58.780 --> 01:00.900]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.580 --> 01:03.440]  But if they could, they would.
[01:03.720 --> 01:04.440]  Bon-di-li-bom.
[01:04.540 --> 01:06.340]  But the best, expect the worst.
[01:07.020 --> 01:08.840]  I hope that's understood.
[01:09.060 --> 01:09.880]  Bon-di-li-bo!
[01:47.060 --> 01:48.180]  And we're getting to everybody.
[01:48.300 --> 01:50.080]  The program is off the hook.
[01:51.320 --> 01:55.120]  We somehow survived the elements outside.
[01:55.280 --> 02:06.920]  I had a real interesting journey into New York today because there was tornadoes and thunderstorms and traffic, all sorts of other natural disasters.
[02:08.120 --> 02:15.330]  But I just walked in here like three or four minutes ago and we're all still running around trying to get things.
[02:15.390 --> 02:15.880]  It's figured out.
[02:16.450 --> 02:17.320]  Red Hecht, you're here.
[02:17.440 --> 02:19.220]  Thanks very much for getting everything going.
[02:19.440 --> 02:19.820]  No problem.
[02:20.100 --> 02:20.820]  Except for you, Mike.
[02:20.940 --> 02:21.660]  Mike is not going.
[02:21.770 --> 02:22.070]  Hold on.
[02:22.200 --> 02:23.060]  Let's try that.
[02:23.200 --> 02:23.620]  Try it now.
[02:23.740 --> 02:24.160]  No problem.
[02:24.240 --> 02:24.640]  Ah, there we go.
[02:24.940 --> 02:26.880]  I think lightning hit the building I was in.
[02:27.220 --> 02:27.600]  Do you really?
[02:27.800 --> 02:30.200]  Well, I didn't see a flash and I felt shaking.
[02:30.450 --> 02:31.010]  Very strong shaking.
[02:31.010 --> 02:31.660]  Well, there were bolts.
[02:31.770 --> 02:36.120]  I was on the Grand Central Parkway and there were lightning bolts coming down to the left and to the right.
[02:36.180 --> 02:36.860]  It was kind of frightening.
[02:37.180 --> 02:38.220]  In fact, it was very frightening.
[02:38.760 --> 02:43.260]  My favorite part of the whole storm was when I couldn't see the next building over because the rain was so thick.
[02:43.260 --> 02:45.320]  It's usually like in the blizzard, not a rain.
[02:45.320 --> 02:51.240]  We have someone from Sleepy Hollow who has come in special because your town got hit by a tornado today, right?
[02:51.620 --> 02:52.200]  Yes, it did.
[02:52.260 --> 02:52.560]  It did.
[02:53.080 --> 02:54.320]  The microphone is for speaking in.
[02:55.240 --> 02:56.800]  And you must be traumatized, right?
[02:56.940 --> 02:58.200]  I'm quite traumatized.
[02:58.330 --> 02:58.800]  Oh, wow.
[03:00.140 --> 03:19.440]  So, yeah, we have tornadoes and we have thunderstorms and we have traffic jams, but none of that is going to stop us from coming on the air tonight and asking for money because this is the special summer mini fundraiser, which means we ask for it for shorter periods of time.
[03:19.440 --> 03:22.060]  But we're going to be asking for this hour as well.
[03:22.060 --> 03:25.420]  So, we have with us Mike over there.
[03:25.700 --> 03:26.090]  Hi there.
[03:26.260 --> 03:28.760]  Is that empty chair next to you supposed to be filled with somebody or...?
[03:28.760 --> 03:29.140]  I don't know.
[03:29.200 --> 03:30.240]  There was a lot of chaos.
[03:30.320 --> 03:31.080]  Yeah, everyone's running around.
[03:32.400 --> 03:33.900]  Okay, well, I see Arseny over there.
[03:34.080 --> 03:34.240]  Hi.
[03:34.500 --> 03:35.460]  Jim, you're in a new place.
[03:36.350 --> 03:39.800]  The headphone jack has disappeared from my traditional spot.
[03:40.460 --> 03:42.860]  I guess you have to follow the headphone jack.
[03:43.000 --> 03:43.700]  You have to adapt.
[03:43.830 --> 03:44.830]  That's what hackers do.
[03:44.980 --> 03:46.000]  And, of course, Red Hacked over there.
[03:46.060 --> 03:47.540]  Bernie S., I assume this is Bernie S.
[03:47.560 --> 03:49.300]  you called because you made the phone call, Mike.
[03:49.300 --> 03:52.680]  Yes, I talked to someone who sounded very much like Bernie S.
[03:52.680 --> 03:53.710]  Is this, in fact, Bernie S.
[03:53.760 --> 03:54.300]  on the other line?
[03:54.590 --> 03:55.210]  It is, indeed.
[03:55.920 --> 03:57.120]  It does sound like him.
[03:57.540 --> 03:58.090]  Well, that's me.
[03:58.210 --> 04:02.270]  And I'm intrigued that this is the storm before the hope.
[04:03.880 --> 04:05.740]  You could put it that way, I guess, yes.
[04:06.770 --> 04:11.180]  Lightning bolts and quite a prelude to what's going to be happening about a week from now.
[04:11.330 --> 04:12.800]  About a week and two days from now.
[04:12.940 --> 04:15.200]  Yeah, you'd think that's something.
[04:15.330 --> 04:17.980]  Boy, way till New York sees what we unleash on them.
[04:18.710 --> 04:20.800]  More info, www.hope.net.
[04:20.860 --> 04:22.060]  You can't pre-register anymore.
[04:22.060 --> 04:22.770]  We warned you.
[04:22.940 --> 04:23.420]  It's over.
[04:23.880 --> 04:25.620]  Now you can only go to the door.
[04:25.920 --> 04:27.060]  You can only go to the door.
[04:28.060 --> 04:31.200]  I believe you can still register for vendor tables.
[04:31.330 --> 04:32.620]  We have a couple of those left.
[04:32.820 --> 04:33.520]  Is that how it works?
[04:33.620 --> 04:34.500]  We're running out.
[04:34.500 --> 04:37.880]  But if you like to vend things, then hope is a...
[04:37.880 --> 04:38.940]  What does that mean, vend things?
[04:39.770 --> 04:40.180]  Sell.
[04:40.740 --> 04:41.020]  Sell.
[04:41.090 --> 04:43.760]  I know what the word vend means, but what are we referring to it as?
[04:44.240 --> 04:44.820]  This is silly.
[04:44.900 --> 04:45.380]  I know the answer.
[04:45.500 --> 04:47.200]  I'm just kind of putting it out there.
[04:47.200 --> 04:53.400]  What kinds of people would you expect to be vendors at a hacker convention, I guess is the way to say it.
[04:53.560 --> 04:59.400]  Well, really anyone who has something that they think they either want to sell our attendees or tell our attendees about.
[04:59.650 --> 05:00.880]  And it's really...
[05:00.880 --> 05:06.000]  We have some very well-positioned tables where folks can display their wares.
[05:06.580 --> 05:09.230]  It's always a very interesting crowd that comes.
[05:10.140 --> 05:15.290]  So I think we hope to have some interesting vendors for them to talk to.
[05:15.290 --> 05:15.590]  Yeah.
[05:15.770 --> 05:29.460]  So if you have something that computer hackers or corporate spies or privatize, international espionage type people, or teenage kids, you know, that's pretty much our crowd.
[05:29.520 --> 05:31.460]  And lots of other people coming off the streets.
[05:31.880 --> 05:40.400]  So if you think you have something that might appeal to them, by all means, write to vendors at 2600.com and ask for more information.
[05:40.400 --> 05:46.960]  I believe also on our website, there's more detailed information, such as how much it costs and things like that, that we don't talk about over the radio.
[05:47.760 --> 05:48.340]  Hope.net.
[05:48.500 --> 05:49.780]  www.hope.net.
[05:50.220 --> 05:51.760]  And just look for all that information.
[05:51.760 --> 05:52.730]  It's all there somewhere.
[05:53.420 --> 05:56.350]  If you can't find it, you could always email and we'll reply.
[05:56.620 --> 05:56.760]  Yeah.
[05:57.000 --> 05:57.720]  Email works.
[05:57.820 --> 05:58.080]  Definitely.
[05:58.380 --> 05:59.290]  We tested it.
[05:59.960 --> 06:00.380]  Yes, Arsene.
[06:00.560 --> 06:03.840]  Well, the other thing is, there's also openings for press registration.
[06:03.980 --> 06:06.040]  We haven't gotten that much press yet.
[06:06.040 --> 06:14.880]  So we'd like to have more, you can send an email to press at 2600.com if you're with the press, and then we'll see what we can do.
[06:15.000 --> 06:18.350]  Please send your name, who you work for, and what your assignment is.
[06:18.480 --> 06:23.580]  And if you have like a photographer or someone, a camera person, please include that information too.
[06:24.100 --> 06:27.580]  And we'd also like to have some press before the damn thing starts, you know.
[06:27.920 --> 06:34.960]  That way, maybe we'll get some people that wouldn't know about Hope ordinarily to come on down as well and participate.
[06:34.960 --> 06:38.280]  We have Jello Biafra doing his usual Sunday afternoon thing.
[06:38.480 --> 06:42.540]  We have Michael Hort, the founder of Project Gutenberg.
[06:42.700 --> 06:48.440]  And of course, we have Richard Stallman on Friday, doing the Friday keynote.
[06:48.640 --> 06:56.100]  Kevin Mitnick, fiber optic, and I guess about 100 more people that would just take forever to list.
[06:56.230 --> 06:59.160]  But really, a lot of interesting people, a lot of really cool panels and talks.
[06:59.840 --> 07:00.520]  That's true.
[07:01.180 --> 07:01.560]  So, yeah.
[07:01.960 --> 07:03.920]  So, come on down.
[07:04.120 --> 07:05.040]  I want to hear from you.
[07:05.140 --> 07:08.420]  And I believe we're scheduled next week, even though we have a fundraiser going on.
[07:08.540 --> 07:14.120]  So, hopefully, we'll have a bunch of people in the studio next week, pre-Hope, the pre-Hope show that we usually do every two years.
[07:14.260 --> 07:18.290]  I hope that the people will pledge tonight so we don't have to spend so much time on it next week.
[07:18.380 --> 07:18.920]  Wouldn't that be nice?
[07:18.920 --> 07:22.120]  Okay, the number is 212-209-2950.
[07:23.320 --> 07:25.850]  That is our telephone number to pledge.
[07:26.200 --> 07:29.620]  And we have all sorts of interesting things for people to pledge for.
[07:29.780 --> 07:35.790]  And just a reminder, this is to keep the radio station here, to keep the radio station going so that you can do what you're doing right now.
[07:35.960 --> 07:37.060]  Listen to us.
[07:37.220 --> 07:40.400]  Listen to us and get something out of it.
[07:40.460 --> 07:42.480]  If you've gotten something out of it over the past...
[07:42.480 --> 07:43.260]  However many...
[07:43.260 --> 07:43.790]  Bernie, you okay?
[07:44.520 --> 07:45.080]  I'm here.
[07:45.180 --> 07:45.380]  All right.
[07:45.620 --> 07:46.340]  You made a funny sound.
[07:46.340 --> 07:53.480]  Over the past couple of years, or past couple of decades, we've been talking about all sorts of interesting things in the hacker world, the world of technology.
[07:53.480 --> 07:54.940]  It's all changed so much.
[07:55.080 --> 07:59.850]  So if you've gotten anything out of that, or if you'd like to get something out of that in the future, please give a call.
[07:59.960 --> 08:01.350]  212-209-2950.
[08:01.480 --> 08:03.780]  And Mike will tell us some of the things you can pledge for.
[08:04.000 --> 08:05.320]  Well, among...
[08:05.320 --> 08:12.230]  Besides just keeping the radio station alive, which is probably the most important thing, the basic membership is $25.
[08:12.790 --> 08:15.480]  And that, as I said, keeps the radio station alive.
[08:15.480 --> 08:16.560]  Life keeps us on the air.
[08:16.880 --> 08:28.100]  If you pledge $60 or more, you can get your choice of a WBAI mug, a WBAI tote bag, or a WBAI baseball cap.
[08:28.960 --> 08:32.040]  If I'm not mistaken, those mugs can be used for coffee or tea.
[08:32.580 --> 08:32.860]  Water.
[08:33.500 --> 08:34.160]  Fruit juice.
[08:34.640 --> 08:35.000]  Milk.
[08:35.400 --> 08:36.460]  In a mug?
[08:36.620 --> 08:37.120]  We can do that.
[08:37.280 --> 08:37.420]  Soda.
[08:38.340 --> 08:39.680]  Well, yeah, but come on.
[08:39.720 --> 08:40.290]  That's not normal.
[08:40.860 --> 08:41.220]  What?
[08:41.320 --> 08:43.240]  I drink milk out of a mug all the time.
[08:43.240 --> 08:45.320]  Bernie, that's more information than I needed to hear.
[08:46.900 --> 08:48.320]  Mugs are for coffee and for tea.
[08:48.600 --> 08:50.380]  How can you put milk and soda in them?
[08:50.700 --> 08:51.120]  Root beer.
[08:51.800 --> 08:54.000]  Sometimes I put a little bit of tea in my milk.
[08:54.240 --> 08:55.520]  You're just trying to get me upset now.
[08:55.520 --> 08:57.140]  What do you put mug root beer into?
[08:57.400 --> 08:58.060]  I don't.
[08:58.100 --> 08:59.160]  I don't even talk about it.
[09:00.320 --> 09:01.320]  It's self-evident.
[09:01.960 --> 09:03.960]  Are we appealing to people who have...
[09:03.960 --> 09:04.980]  It's clearly beyond you.
[09:05.140 --> 09:07.000]  ...independent minds that do what they want to do?
[09:07.000 --> 09:09.260]  The kind of people that we want to call in?
[09:09.460 --> 09:10.420]  Whoa, wait a moment.
[09:10.660 --> 09:13.240]  Mug root beer in a mug is what I would support.
[09:13.380 --> 09:14.800]  A very conservative approach.
[09:15.720 --> 09:16.120]  Yeah.
[09:16.120 --> 09:19.760]  You can use this mug however you want, and you can get it for only $60.
[09:20.280 --> 09:22.000]  I have a few uses for it in mind right now.
[09:22.760 --> 09:24.300]  212-209-2950.
[09:24.500 --> 09:24.820]  Look at that.
[09:24.920 --> 09:26.000]  Zero calls on the line.
[09:26.120 --> 09:26.960]  This is really effective.
[09:28.340 --> 09:30.580]  Let's get those phone calls coming in.
[09:30.700 --> 09:32.060]  Come on, you root beer drinkers.
[09:32.520 --> 09:33.600]  There's more premiums.
[09:33.660 --> 09:34.900]  Maybe they want to know the full list.
[09:35.000 --> 09:35.900]  But wait, there's more.
[09:35.900 --> 09:36.540]  There's more.
[09:36.820 --> 09:42.460]  In addition, for $60, you could choose to have a t-shirt, medium, large, or extra large.
[09:42.600 --> 09:46.100]  If you want double extra large, it's $10 more, which is $70.
[09:46.760 --> 09:55.500]  Or if you want to pledge $125 or more, you will get the WBAI gold package, which includes a hat, a mug, and a tote bag.
[09:55.600 --> 10:03.060]  So you can maybe put the hat and the mug in the tote bag to carry them to where your tea or root beer or whatever is stored.
[10:03.160 --> 10:04.820]  Or you can put your root beer in the tote bag.
[10:04.820 --> 10:06.040]  You can carry that around.
[10:06.440 --> 10:07.880]  If you don't want to put it in the mug.
[10:07.980 --> 10:08.680]  Do whatever you want.
[10:08.860 --> 10:09.980]  You can balance it on your head.
[10:10.160 --> 10:10.500]  It's your life.
[10:10.700 --> 10:12.200]  212-209-2950.
[10:12.360 --> 10:13.880]  But the one thing that you're not doing is calling.
[10:14.160 --> 10:14.980]  All right, there's one call.
[10:15.380 --> 10:17.020]  But we can certainly have more than that.
[10:17.080 --> 10:18.760]  We have, what, 15 lines there?
[10:19.100 --> 10:21.140]  And there's a bunch of volunteers back there.
[10:21.140 --> 10:21.800]  A whole bunch.
[10:21.940 --> 10:22.800]  A whole bunch of volunteers.
[10:23.440 --> 10:26.040]  They've come in special just to field your phone calls.
[10:26.100 --> 10:26.840]  Two calls on the line.
[10:26.940 --> 10:27.060]  Great.
[10:27.060 --> 10:28.780]  212-209-2950.
[10:29.200 --> 10:42.840]  Remember, the most important reason, even if we had nothing, nothing to give you but our voices and opinions and news stories and phone-in shows, that hopefully would be enough for you to call in to say, yeah, that's a good idea.
[10:42.960 --> 10:43.520]  Keep it going.
[10:43.520 --> 10:48.400]  But we try to put together all these little packages as incentives to get you to call in as well.
[10:48.740 --> 10:51.700]  So that's a very important aspect to it all as well.
[10:51.820 --> 10:53.800]  212-209-2950.
[10:53.880 --> 10:55.260]  Three phone calls on the line.
[10:56.000 --> 10:57.840]  How many people are down there in the tally room?
[10:57.980 --> 10:58.700]  Oh, more than three.
[10:58.840 --> 10:59.300]  More than three.
[10:59.440 --> 11:00.900]  So we need more than three calls.
[11:01.860 --> 11:02.840]  And yes, Arsene.
[11:02.960 --> 11:04.620]  I was just in there, actually.
[11:04.960 --> 11:12.980]  I wanted to help out, but the show before us, which is the news, doesn't really get that many calls, so all the people in there are really bored.
[11:13.340 --> 11:14.460]  So the least you can do...
[11:14.460 --> 11:15.020]  Are you dissing the news?
[11:15.200 --> 11:15.700]  I'm just...
[11:15.700 --> 11:16.960]  You know, the news is the news.
[11:17.000 --> 11:17.620]  Oh, my God.
[11:17.620 --> 11:21.280]  But I'm just saying that people there are pretty bored, and if you want to entertain them, at least...
[11:21.280 --> 11:22.980]  Going to start a war between the shows now.
[11:23.680 --> 11:25.000]  So we have to top the news.
[11:25.140 --> 11:25.780]  Is that what the...
[11:25.780 --> 11:26.260]  Well, yeah, yeah.
[11:26.400 --> 11:27.740]  But according to you, that's not too hard.
[11:27.980 --> 11:31.520]  No, but I mean, I'm saying for the people, the volunteers' sake.
[11:32.360 --> 11:34.180]  Look at the gestures I'm getting from the newsroom.
[11:34.980 --> 11:36.600]  212-209-2950.
[11:37.480 --> 11:38.600]  You can speak to them later.
[11:39.200 --> 11:42.880]  Three calls remain on the line, and hopefully more calls are being placed.
[11:42.980 --> 11:43.720]  Even as we speak.
[11:43.880 --> 11:45.180]  212-209-2950.
[11:45.440 --> 11:50.940]  And of course, you can call if you're listening to us in the future or online when it's a little bit delayed.
[11:51.300 --> 11:53.600]  But please try to call now so that we see.
[11:53.780 --> 11:58.460]  We see that phone light up, and we know that there are people out there, and that matters to them, and we can get on with our show.
[11:58.640 --> 11:59.920]  Can you even pledge online, I think?
[12:00.400 --> 12:01.260]  You can do that, too.
[12:01.380 --> 12:06.840]  If you're sophisticated, you can go to WBAI.org and click a few things, and you'll be pledging online before you know it.
[12:06.920 --> 12:10.300]  Although the disadvantage is that the volunteers don't get entertained if you do that.
[12:10.300 --> 12:15.460]  Yeah, that's true, and neither do we, because we don't see you clicking online, and that's...
[12:15.460 --> 12:16.260]  They should work on that.
[12:16.920 --> 12:20.500]  I understand they are, but not during this hour.
[12:21.860 --> 12:23.580]  Okay, 212-209-2950.
[12:23.600 --> 12:23.940]  You know what?
[12:23.940 --> 12:29.340]  I'll be ready to go on with the show and talk about news items and things like that if I see just one more phone call come in.
[12:29.480 --> 12:31.800]  So this is an indication of the power of the individual.
[12:32.000 --> 12:32.540]  One person.
[12:33.020 --> 12:33.300]  One person.
[12:33.380 --> 12:34.400]  And not just make the phone ring.
[12:34.620 --> 12:41.920]  Call up, talk to the people, give your name and statistics or whatever, and pledge however much you can afford to pledge.
[12:42.460 --> 12:43.500]  That's the deal.
[12:43.600 --> 12:45.280]  212-209-2950.
[12:46.060 --> 12:51.300]  We're down to two calls because somebody has already made their pledge, and it's quick, it's easy, it's pleasant.
[12:52.320 --> 12:53.060]  It really is.
[12:53.060 --> 12:54.160]  They're nice people that volunteer.
[12:54.300 --> 12:54.720]  Very nice people.
[12:54.720 --> 12:55.040]  They're nice to talk to.
[12:55.260 --> 12:56.440]  Okay, is that...
[12:56.440 --> 12:57.300]  I see the phone ringing.
[12:57.540 --> 13:07.140]  I see when the phone picks up and the person stays on the line for longer than the period you would stay on the line if someone just hung up on you, then we'll see where the show.
[13:07.300 --> 13:09.080]  I'd say it's probably about, what, 15 seconds or so?
[13:09.260 --> 13:10.080]  That's about right.
[13:10.360 --> 13:10.560]  Yeah.
[13:10.700 --> 13:13.800]  How long do you stay on the phone, Bernie, when someone calls you without saying anything?
[13:14.800 --> 13:16.080]  Less than 15 seconds.
[13:16.200 --> 13:17.020]  Less than 15 seconds.
[13:17.200 --> 13:17.940]  I'm very patient.
[13:17.940 --> 13:23.980]  I usually stay on for a couple of minutes just making sure that they haven't fallen down or something or, you know, need help in some way.
[13:24.680 --> 13:25.520]  It could happen.
[13:25.660 --> 13:27.300]  It could be a pocket call.
[13:27.440 --> 13:28.160]  Sometimes it does happen.
[13:28.240 --> 13:33.760]  Sometimes you get a pocket call where someone's walking around with their cell phone and it dials you because it's speed dialing and it hits a two or something.
[13:34.280 --> 13:44.180]  Those calls, Emmanuel, those I stay on the line for because especially if it doesn't show in the caller ID whose pocket call it is, you can hear them walking.
[13:44.180 --> 13:50.640]  They sound like Astro Boy walking because you can hear the sound, the sound as the phone rubs around in their pocket.
[13:50.840 --> 13:51.060]  Yes.
[13:51.060 --> 13:56.760]  I stay on the phone as long as I can and listen to the background conversation, see if I can figure out who's calling.
[13:56.920 --> 13:57.080]  Yeah.
[13:57.160 --> 13:59.780]  If the caller ID didn't already tell you that, sometimes it doesn't.
[14:00.080 --> 14:00.440]  Yeah.
[14:00.540 --> 14:01.060]  But sometimes it doesn't.
[14:01.100 --> 14:02.320]  So it's kind of fun to listen.
[14:02.420 --> 14:04.420]  Or if you know who's calling, it's kind of fun to listen.
[14:04.880 --> 14:09.740]  I've done that before and somebody called me accidentally who showed me their caller ID and who they were.
[14:09.940 --> 14:11.300]  Then I called them back the next day.
[14:11.320 --> 14:15.580]  I said, oh, I heard that you had done such and such.
[14:15.860 --> 14:17.160]  And they were like, how did you know that?
[14:18.400 --> 14:20.760]  I've caught people talking about me while they're doing this.
[14:20.980 --> 14:21.460]  I had a manual.
[14:21.460 --> 14:23.740]  I can't believe I have to deal with it.
[14:24.160 --> 14:25.540]  Such a pain in the ass, you know.
[14:25.700 --> 14:27.240]  And I confront them with this later.
[14:27.380 --> 14:28.640]  I say, hey, I know what you said about me.
[14:28.720 --> 14:29.520]  How do I know?
[14:29.620 --> 14:30.760]  Because I have ears everywhere.
[14:30.920 --> 14:31.320]  That's how.
[14:31.700 --> 14:32.900]  And then they're really paranoid.
[14:33.040 --> 14:34.820]  They don't speak to me again and everybody wins.
[14:35.850 --> 14:36.960]  212-209-2950.
[14:37.100 --> 14:37.880]  Okay, we've got a bunch of calls.
[14:37.880 --> 14:39.600]  So thank you very much, everybody, for calling in.
[14:39.700 --> 14:44.960]  And please keep the calls coming in during the hour as we proceed with various news events.
[14:45.060 --> 14:52.220]  Now, I don't have as much together as I should because of all the craziness going on this afternoon with weather and things like that.
[14:52.260 --> 14:53.440]  But there are some interesting things.
[14:54.700 --> 14:58.980]  This story, did you see the story that was actually in Wired News written by our friend Kevin Paulson?
[14:59.220 --> 15:01.920]  Great headline, Crazy Long Hacker Sentence Upheld.
[15:02.400 --> 15:03.220]  What does that mean?
[15:03.280 --> 15:08.120]  Well, I just think anytime you can get the word crazy long into a headline, you've succeeded in some way.
[15:08.920 --> 15:10.780]  It basically has to do with...
[15:10.780 --> 15:11.900]  Uh-oh, where's the story?
[15:12.900 --> 15:14.060]  The crazy long...
[15:14.060 --> 15:15.980]  Was the hacker crazy long or the sentence?
[15:16.180 --> 15:17.320]  I assume the sentence.
[15:17.880 --> 15:19.040]  I assume the sentence.
[15:19.720 --> 15:20.440]  No, hold on.
[15:20.480 --> 15:21.080]  That's something else.
[15:21.680 --> 15:23.660]  Well, I'm going to keep looking for this.
[15:24.340 --> 15:26.100]  But let me go to another...
[15:26.100 --> 15:27.240]  Boy, this is embarrassing.
[15:27.660 --> 15:29.000]  It was here when I got here.
[15:29.100 --> 15:29.980]  I don't know...
[15:31.120 --> 15:33.060]  Shows you how disorganized we are these days.
[15:34.100 --> 15:37.860]  There's another Wired story I'll go to instead about the webbangers.
[15:38.280 --> 15:39.140]  You hear about this?
[15:39.220 --> 15:40.400]  Is it the new phrase out there?
[15:40.640 --> 15:41.860]  What is a webbanger?
[15:42.020 --> 15:44.380]  They're gangs who stake net turf.
[15:44.800 --> 15:46.340]  What is a net turf?
[15:46.900 --> 15:49.120]  I thought it was Spider-Man gone bad.
[15:49.280 --> 15:51.400]  I'll just read the way it sounds in the story.
[15:51.520 --> 16:03.620]  Some of the country's most notorious street gangs have become web-savvy, showcasing illegal exploits, making threats, and honoring killed and jailed members on digital turf.
[16:03.900 --> 16:04.400]  Oh, no.
[16:04.980 --> 16:09.060]  Crips, Bloods, MS-13, 18th Street, and others.
[16:10.000 --> 16:10.820]  18th Street?
[16:10.900 --> 16:11.880]  That's the name of a gang?
[16:12.120 --> 16:15.920]  They were profiled on television on Channel 13 last night.
[16:16.220 --> 16:16.480]  Mm-hmm.
[16:16.660 --> 16:17.020]  18th?
[16:17.020 --> 16:18.760]  Is it our 18th Street or is it another city?
[16:19.060 --> 16:21.100]  It's in, I think, California somewhere.
[16:21.840 --> 16:23.540]  Oh, our 18th Street's better than theirs.
[16:23.540 --> 16:25.100]  But not as tough, probably.
[16:25.700 --> 16:25.920]  They're at war with...
[16:25.920 --> 16:26.320]  MS-13.
[16:27.040 --> 16:27.600]  Yeah, that's right.
[16:27.700 --> 16:28.440]  They're at war with MS-13.
[16:28.600 --> 16:31.480]  How do you guys know what gangs are at war with...
[16:31.480 --> 16:36.440]  Bernie and I have our fingers on the pulse of this city, man.
[16:36.600 --> 16:37.040]  Several...
[16:37.040 --> 16:38.080]  You're behind the times.
[16:38.760 --> 16:40.480]  These are times I'm proud to be behind, though.
[16:40.860 --> 16:41.460]  Believe me.
[16:43.240 --> 16:43.680]  Wow.
[16:43.860 --> 16:44.080]  Okay.
[16:44.200 --> 16:46.340]  Well, then that explains that, at least.
[16:46.760 --> 16:51.140]  These gangs and others have staked claims on various corners of cyberspace.
[16:51.140 --> 17:01.980]  Web bangers are posting potentially incriminating photos of members holding guns, messages taunting other gangs, and boasts of illegal exploits on personal websites and social networking sites.
[17:02.720 --> 17:14.140]  I'm just being real and I ain't got nothing to hide, said Christopher Casper Flowers, a professed member of the 18th Street gang, with facial tattoos of 18 and 666.
[17:15.260 --> 17:16.320]  That's badass.
[17:16.710 --> 17:17.640]  On the internet?
[17:18.160 --> 17:18.860]  On the face.
[17:18.860 --> 17:20.800]  I guess his face is on the internet.
[17:21.040 --> 17:22.250]  That's the only thing I can think of.
[17:22.600 --> 17:23.160]  That's terrible.
[17:23.800 --> 17:27.160]  The main 18th Street gang website has a link to Casper's World.
[17:27.320 --> 17:28.820]  I don't explain what Casper's World is.
[17:29.080 --> 17:30.540]  It must be Casper's website.
[17:31.210 --> 17:31.620]  Yeah.
[17:31.880 --> 17:33.360]  Casper with the 18 on his face.
[17:33.460 --> 17:33.920]  I suppose.
[17:34.730 --> 17:39.490]  You know what's sad is I can't find that story at all about the crazy long hacker sentence.
[17:39.560 --> 17:39.940]  I'm sorry.
[17:40.140 --> 17:41.040]  I thought I had it.
[17:41.100 --> 17:41.560]  I really did.
[17:41.680 --> 17:43.680]  But apparently it got lost somewhere.
[17:43.820 --> 17:45.310]  Can you reconstruct it from memory?
[17:45.310 --> 17:52.400]  Well, maybe one of you guys can go on the interweb and find it with that headline and we can read it off the computer monitor.
[17:52.790 --> 17:54.840]  But, you know, I think maybe the story is good enough.
[17:56.070 --> 17:57.990]  That, you know, crazy long hacker sentence.
[17:58.970 --> 18:01.230]  Just saying that is worth anything.
[18:02.200 --> 18:03.360]  Speaking of the interweb.
[18:03.360 --> 18:04.860]  Yes, Bernie first and Jim.
[18:06.960 --> 18:14.470]  I have a similar, not a similar story, but along the same lines of a hacker prosecution going on.
[18:14.660 --> 18:18.710]  You may recall a few weeks ago we were discussing the case of Gary McKinnon.
[18:19.010 --> 18:20.900]  He was the hacker.
[18:21.120 --> 18:22.050]  The UFO guy from England.
[18:22.470 --> 18:22.960]  Exactly.
[18:23.200 --> 18:25.550]  A British hacker who apparently hacked into a U.S.
[18:25.920 --> 18:29.310]  military and NASA computers looking for evidence of UFOs.
[18:29.310 --> 18:33.700]  And he was going to be extradited, and he was extradited, I believe, to the U.S.
[18:33.840 --> 18:54.880]  Well, I don't know if people are looking at the news the past day or two, but Tony Blair's Labor Party and the opposition party are both up in arms about this extradition treaty that they have with the U.S., saying that there's no way anybody should be extradited on the fast track because these three bankers who were involved with the Enron,
[18:55.010 --> 18:57.880]  allegedly involved with the Enron scandal, are going to be extradited.
[18:58.140 --> 19:01.810]  And they're making a lot of noise about, we can't have these people extradited on the fast track.
[19:01.810 --> 19:04.940]  Well, that's what happened to Gary McKinnon, and who was talking for him?
[19:06.010 --> 19:15.250]  It's very interesting, this treaty, because it was supposed to be a treaty between the United States and the United Kingdom where terrorism suspects could be extradited quickly.
[19:15.660 --> 19:20.340]  But as we've seen, what they're using this for is hackers and bankers and other people who aren't terrorists.
[19:20.510 --> 19:25.200]  And the really interesting thing is that the United States Senate never ratified the treaty.
[19:25.440 --> 19:27.790]  So it's a unidirectional treaty.
[19:28.200 --> 19:35.270]  Only people can be extradited from the United Kingdom to the United States with this new process, not the other way around.
[19:35.470 --> 19:40.070]  And for some reason, no one thought this was bad until bankers were affected.
[19:40.600 --> 19:40.750]  Yep.
[19:42.030 --> 19:42.400]  Interesting.
[19:42.510 --> 19:44.860]  So you bring bankers into the mix and all of a sudden logic prevails?
[19:45.030 --> 19:45.920]  I don't know.
[19:46.120 --> 19:46.360]  Okay.
[19:46.470 --> 19:47.730]  That's something to keep in mind.
[19:48.460 --> 19:49.510]  Thanks, Redhack.
[19:49.570 --> 19:50.270]  You found the story.
[19:50.490 --> 19:52.290]  And Jim, first, your comments and we'll get back to you.
[19:52.530 --> 19:57.770]  I was going to say, the one article just like you, the one article I wanted is the article I didn't bring.
[19:57.960 --> 20:09.640]  But someone who voted against the net neutrality bill in the Senate made a statement in an article and was quoted as saying more or less that his office attempted to send emails the other day.
[20:09.960 --> 20:12.790]  But, and I paraphrase it, but it's close enough to count.
[20:13.530 --> 20:18.680]  Too many people were sending too many internets at the same time and it took forever to get out.
[20:18.860 --> 20:21.440]  And that's why he voted against the net neutrality bill.
[20:21.920 --> 20:24.120]  Too many people were sending too many internets?
[20:24.270 --> 20:28.620]  I swear to you, if that is not a quote, it is close enough to count.
[20:28.940 --> 20:30.530]  We're going to search for too many internets.
[20:30.770 --> 20:31.730]  You want to do this now, Redhack?
[20:31.880 --> 20:32.660]  We can't do it now.
[20:32.660 --> 20:33.640]  We've still got the story to read.
[20:33.640 --> 20:34.660]  Well, we can open two windows.
[20:35.010 --> 20:36.790]  How are you going to read the story while he's searching?
[20:36.790 --> 20:37.200]  I won't.
[20:37.290 --> 20:37.920]  I'll do something else.
[20:38.050 --> 20:40.030]  Watch how I go back to the street gang story.
[20:40.230 --> 20:40.880]  It's a New York Times article.
[20:40.880 --> 20:43.920]  There's still a couple of really cool quotes here.
[20:44.470 --> 20:50.750]  In order to understand any subculture, be it Al-Qaeda, witches, devil worshippers, or gangs, you have to be able to know their own language.
[20:51.230 --> 20:54.050]  That's according to one of the investigators looking into these guys.
[20:54.250 --> 21:00.030]  The tendency for gang members to brag about their exploits on webpages, such as the popular networking site...
[21:00.960 --> 21:01.360]  MySpace?
[21:01.550 --> 21:01.920]  MySpace.
[21:02.050 --> 21:02.550]  Very good, Jim.
[21:02.840 --> 21:04.120]  You do know about gang culture.
[21:07.160 --> 21:11.730]  MySpace.com, they have some of those... In some cases, they have helped investigate how investigators make arrests.
[21:11.920 --> 21:19.960]  Chicago police recently arrested a teenager accused of spraying his gang nickname on a church by tracing the moniker to his MySpace.com account.
[21:20.180 --> 21:23.530]  His online profile included his address, photo, and real name.
[21:24.400 --> 21:27.660]  These are not intellectual geniuses here, obviously.
[21:27.770 --> 21:31.470]  And everybody is putting their whole lives on the internet in some way.
[21:31.640 --> 21:35.420]  Do you know the MySpace is the number one website in the United States now, apparently?
[21:35.420 --> 21:36.550]  I just heard that today.
[21:36.880 --> 21:37.920]  More than Google.
[21:37.920 --> 21:39.180]  More than Google?
[21:39.420 --> 21:39.570]  Wow.
[21:39.730 --> 21:39.840]  Yep.
[21:40.200 --> 21:45.380]  That's... So people are reading other people's blogs and diaries more than they're searching for something.
[21:45.840 --> 21:46.120]  Mm-hmm.
[21:46.440 --> 21:48.340]  I think it's people just looking at each other's pictures.
[21:48.960 --> 21:50.470]  Or listening to each other's music.
[21:50.680 --> 21:50.860]  Yeah.
[21:51.140 --> 21:52.220]  Less the blogs.
[21:53.340 --> 21:53.660]  I don't know.
[21:53.660 --> 21:55.740]  Can people explain to me why MySpace?
[21:55.880 --> 21:57.000]  It's really terrible.
[21:57.550 --> 21:58.700]  Yeah, it's ugly site.
[21:58.900 --> 21:59.360]  It's ugly.
[21:59.600 --> 22:02.020]  It's talking about extended network.
[22:02.220 --> 22:06.040]  Every time I visit someone, they're in my extended network, even though I'm not on the site.
[22:06.040 --> 22:07.680]  I don't want to be in anyone's extended network.
[22:07.880 --> 22:08.660]  You can't get out.
[22:08.900 --> 22:11.140]  I'm nervous enough being on someone's buddy list.
[22:11.460 --> 22:13.380]  It's just too crazy.
[22:14.380 --> 22:15.240]  No, you can't get out.
[22:15.310 --> 22:15.540]  You're right.
[22:15.700 --> 22:17.120]  And MySpace is only one of them.
[22:17.380 --> 22:18.380]  MySpace is only one of them.
[22:18.460 --> 22:20.420]  You have the Facebook.
[22:20.740 --> 22:22.290]  You've got the LiveJournal.
[22:22.550 --> 22:23.240]  There's a million others.
[22:23.420 --> 22:28.550]  But most of these sites, for all their problems, are at least less ugly than MySpace.
[22:28.810 --> 22:31.600]  The users don't have a say in how it actually looks in the end.
[22:31.740 --> 22:32.960]  They have a very limited say.
[22:32.960 --> 22:33.500]  Well, no, no.
[22:33.600 --> 22:35.100]  You can put all this crazy JavaScript.
[22:35.100 --> 22:39.790]  So when you go to someone's site, they can have like a million things fly out at you.
[22:39.920 --> 22:41.900]  And the colors are hideous.
[22:42.070 --> 22:46.240]  And there's things flying everywhere to the point that the website just crashes your browser.
[22:46.680 --> 22:48.100]  So yeah, you can edit it.
[22:48.760 --> 22:49.600]  Well, it's interesting.
[22:49.810 --> 22:54.440]  I think virtually every aspect of society now is on the net in some form.
[22:54.620 --> 22:57.140]  Is there anybody that we can think of who is not on the net?
[22:57.640 --> 23:02.680]  As a group of people, a particular business, a particular lifestyle, anything?
[23:03.480 --> 23:03.840]  Amish?
[23:04.070 --> 23:04.260]  Yeah.
[23:04.420 --> 23:05.810]  Most of the world that can't afford to date.
[23:05.810 --> 23:07.260]  No, I'm talking about in this country.
[23:07.520 --> 23:07.680]  Oh.
[23:08.050 --> 23:08.740]  In this country?
[23:08.880 --> 23:09.050]  Yeah.
[23:09.310 --> 23:09.660]  Amish.
[23:09.660 --> 23:13.000]  Amish is... that might be... is the Amish people, they're not on the net at all?
[23:13.040 --> 23:17.880]  Well, but some of them like sell things on the internet, even if they use intermediaries.
[23:18.300 --> 23:21.020]  Well, if there are any Amish listeners out there, we'd like to know.
[23:21.200 --> 23:22.310]  You can tell us about that.
[23:22.540 --> 23:29.880]  One thing I've always wanted to know, though, what is the biggest business out there that does not have a net presence?
[23:30.520 --> 23:31.500]  Does anybody know?
[23:31.720 --> 23:33.400]  What do you mean by net presence?
[23:33.480 --> 23:34.180]  They don't have a website.
[23:34.780 --> 23:37.440]  Now, you mean an individual company or you mean a whole industry?
[23:37.760 --> 23:42.040]  Well, I mean the biggest business that does not have a website at all.
[23:42.400 --> 23:47.810]  Like, for instance, if Chevrolet didn't have a website, they'd be pretty big.
[23:47.980 --> 23:51.260]  If 7-Eleven didn't have a website, there must be something out there.
[23:51.660 --> 23:54.500]  Does Waffle House have a website?
[23:54.500 --> 23:54.980]  They must.
[23:55.570 --> 24:01.860]  But, you know, somebody out there that just has refused to get on the bus and join everybody else.
[24:02.020 --> 24:02.540]  I'm sorry, Bernie, what?
[24:03.560 --> 24:03.880]  Shoeshiners.
[24:04.780 --> 24:07.200]  But that's not a real organized...
[24:07.200 --> 24:10.570]  An individual shoeshiner is rather small, so that's what Emmanuel's getting at here.
[24:10.700 --> 24:15.480]  If there's a shoeshiner chain of some sort, which I don't think there is, and they weren't on the net...
[24:15.480 --> 24:17.200]  How would you find out about it if they're not on the net?
[24:17.240 --> 24:17.940]  Yeah, that's the thing.
[24:18.070 --> 24:20.810]  Well, I guess you have to know something and say, what's your website?
[24:20.900 --> 24:23.780]  And they look at you blankly and say, we don't use that.
[24:23.900 --> 24:25.310]  We don't use that kind of talk around here.
[24:25.310 --> 24:31.200]  You could figure out, because Forbes and Fortune tend to publish a list of large companies.
[24:31.200 --> 24:34.380]  You just keep going down the list until you find one with no website.
[24:34.480 --> 24:36.400]  I maintain you will make it all the way down to the bottom of the list.
[24:36.400 --> 24:36.760]  I think you're right.
[24:36.880 --> 24:38.020]  500 at least, yes.
[24:38.140 --> 24:40.240]  You'll waste a lot of time because they're all on there.
[24:40.260 --> 24:41.700]  I think everybody is on there.
[24:42.040 --> 24:45.940]  And, yeah, I guess you can go to, you know, Tibet or something and find a company that's not on there.
[24:45.980 --> 24:49.520]  But I'm talking about things that we're familiar with here in our limited culture.
[24:49.540 --> 24:50.260]  Organized crime?
[24:50.840 --> 24:52.780]  They probably have websites, too.
[24:53.040 --> 24:54.700]  They have websites devoted to them.
[24:54.700 --> 24:56.000]  We just heard about the gangs.
[24:56.240 --> 24:56.380]  Yeah.
[24:56.940 --> 24:57.660]  Mob.org.
[24:57.780 --> 24:58.540]  We're talking about, you know, the...
[24:58.540 --> 24:59.050]  Mob .org?
[24:59.400 --> 25:03.160]  The putatively Italian American mob.
[25:03.540 --> 25:04.880]  Well, all right.
[25:05.240 --> 25:07.220]  If you know something, please write us.
[25:07.340 --> 25:09.160]  O-T-H at 2600.com.
[25:09.280 --> 25:10.540]  Okay, I've stalled long enough, Red Hacked.
[25:10.570 --> 25:11.380]  I've got to read that story now.
[25:11.380 --> 25:11.810]  What are you reading?
[25:12.000 --> 25:12.360]  Slashdot?
[25:12.360 --> 25:15.360]  I saw the article on Slashdot, but surprising...
[25:15.360 --> 25:20.680]  Not surprisingly, it's harder to find a specific article on net neutrality than on the words crazy long.
[25:21.740 --> 25:22.600]  Well, okay.
[25:22.700 --> 25:23.900]  But we found the crazy long story.
[25:24.220 --> 25:26.620]  But maybe we'll find the other one later.
[25:26.840 --> 25:27.920]  That's the sound of the monitor.
[25:28.620 --> 25:29.340]  What's the moving?
[25:29.920 --> 25:32.940]  Nothing I like than Frankenstein surplus equipment.
[25:33.100 --> 25:34.000]  It's a very old monitor.
[25:34.120 --> 25:34.960]  Let's move a little bit more.
[25:35.220 --> 25:36.120]  Nearly 200 years.
[25:37.200 --> 25:38.160]  There we go.
[25:38.480 --> 25:38.880]  Okay, that's about right.
[25:38.880 --> 25:40.500]  What is the monitor operating?
[25:41.580 --> 25:42.380]  It's just...
[25:42.380 --> 25:42.810]  It needs oil.
[25:42.900 --> 25:43.180]  That's all.
[25:43.380 --> 25:54.340]  A federal appeals court upheld a nine-year prison term Monday for a hacker who tried and failed to steal customer credit card numbers from the Lowe's chain of home improvement stores.
[25:55.000 --> 25:56.310]  Now, I'm sure they have a website.
[25:56.480 --> 25:57.940]  That's an example right there.
[25:58.260 --> 26:02.020]  Okay, this guy tried and failed to steal customer credit card numbers.
[26:04.400 --> 26:16.550]  Brian Salcedo, 23 years old, has been in custody since 2003 when an FBI stakeout caught him and a partner breaking into several Lowe's networks over an unsecured Wi-Fi connection at a suburban Detroit store.
[26:16.680 --> 26:18.360]  I think we might have even heard about this back then.
[26:18.520 --> 26:19.000]  Yes.
[26:19.240 --> 26:24.200]  Under Monday's ruling, Salcedo will not be eligible for release until May 2011.
[26:25.700 --> 26:26.620]  You okay, Bernie?
[26:26.660 --> 26:29.550]  You keep making these weird sounds that sound sort of like our monitor.
[26:29.550 --> 26:32.540]  That's my tongue sticking out because this is such an outrageous story.
[26:32.720 --> 26:32.940]  Okay.
[26:33.140 --> 26:35.520]  Yeah, and your eyes protruding cartoon style.
[26:36.050 --> 26:36.960]  Assistant U.S.
[26:37.040 --> 26:42.380]  Attorney Matthew Martens, who prosecuted the case, said the sentence is long but appropriate.
[26:42.380 --> 26:48.660]  I hope it achieves not only justice in this case, but deterrence to other people thinking about doing something similar.
[26:49.360 --> 26:57.290]  Salcedo's partner in the border of CAPER, 22-year-old Adam Botbill, has less than two months left on a sentence of 26 months for his role in the plot.
[26:57.290 --> 27:02.240]  After serving most of that time in custody, Botbill is now in a halfway house in Detroit.
[27:02.660 --> 27:15.200]  According to court records, Botbill stumbled across the unsecured wireless network at the Southfield, Michigan, Lowe's in the spring of 2003, while he and the roommate were war-driving the area in search of Wi-Fi hotspots.
[27:15.840 --> 27:22.290]  He returned six months later with Salcedo, who was on the last month of a three-year probation term from a juvenile computer crime conviction.
[27:22.790 --> 27:31.040]  Together, the pair discovered they could jump from the Southfield Lowe's to the company's central data center in North Carolina, and from there to the local networks at stores around the country.
[27:31.600 --> 27:35.720]  Lowe's detected the intrusions and called in the FBI, who staked out the store parking lot.
[27:36.040 --> 27:43.740]  The agents eventually spotted Botbill's Pontiac Grand Prix, bristling with antennas and occupied by two young men typing on laptops.
[27:44.120 --> 27:53.960]  The agents watched them work for 20 minutes, then trailed them to a Little Caesars pizza restaurant and a local multiplex, while Lowe's security team worked to figure out what the hackers had done.
[27:55.040 --> 28:10.140]  They discovered that at two of the stores in Long Beach, California and Gainesville, Florida, the pair had modified a proprietary piece of software called TCP Credit that Lowe's used to handle credit card transactions, changing the program so it would stash customers' credit card numbers where the hackers could retrieve them later.
[28:10.550 --> 28:14.160]  The program had collected only six credit card numbers when it was discovered.
[28:15.200 --> 28:26.640]  Although there's no evidence either man saw a single stolen credit card number, and despite cooperating to help Lowe's boosted security after his arrest, Saucedo was sentenced to what the government described at the time as the longest U.S.
[28:26.780 --> 28:28.720]  prison term for a hacker in history.
[28:28.790 --> 28:33.960]  I have a feeling, Bernie, we have something to talk about at the Hackers in Prison panel this year at Hope.
[28:34.050 --> 28:35.140]  This is an incredible story.
[28:35.570 --> 28:42.100]  Lots of interesting stories from behind bars, or from people who've been there for hacking-related things.
[28:42.520 --> 28:45.240]  Myself, Phiber Optik, and Kevin Mitnick.
[28:45.360 --> 28:47.600]  But let me guess something here, Emanuel.
[28:47.880 --> 28:53.780]  The guy that only got a few months, as opposed to the guy who got the longest sentence in U.S.
[28:53.920 --> 28:55.550]  history for hacking several years.
[28:56.980 --> 29:01.160]  The guy who did a few months, let me guess, did he give the other guy up?
[29:01.940 --> 29:03.400]  Well, I don't know if it says that here.
[29:03.880 --> 29:07.440]  I don't see reference to that, but these things happen all the time.
[29:08.220 --> 29:09.280]  These things happen all the time.
[29:09.620 --> 29:13.810]  When people get prosecuted, they say whatever they have to say to stay free.
[29:14.000 --> 29:20.020]  It sounds like the one guy who got the longer sentence was already on probation, so they tend not to like that.
[29:20.200 --> 29:22.040]  Yeah, and they're demonizing him for that.
[29:22.100 --> 29:27.540]  But the thing that strikes me about this case is that there is no evidence of what their intent was.
[29:27.720 --> 29:29.520]  Maybe they were seeing if they could just do this.
[29:29.660 --> 29:32.200]  Maybe, you know, is it possible to get all these credit card numbers?
[29:33.740 --> 29:35.050]  It could be seen as a challenge.
[29:35.240 --> 29:40.280]  The fact that they never even saw a credit card number, let alone ever used one, that's very different.
[29:40.540 --> 29:47.040]  I mean, if someone goes on a crime spree and downloads all these credit card numbers and starts spending willy-nilly, well, then you have something.
[29:47.160 --> 29:53.280]  But in this case, you just have somebody using an unsecured wireless network, getting behind the corporate security.
[29:53.280 --> 29:59.550]  I think that's a good thing to try because you're learning something, you're showing them that they don't have any security, and they cooperated.
[29:59.640 --> 30:02.180]  They cooperated with these guys and showed them how to improve their system.
[30:02.700 --> 30:05.120]  So, okay, they were collecting credit card numbers.
[30:05.310 --> 30:10.310]  Well, maybe that's what you have to do to show people that their system is not secure.
[30:10.540 --> 30:11.310]  Look what I can get.
[30:11.600 --> 30:13.980]  And shock them into improving something.
[30:14.420 --> 30:19.570]  I'm not saying that's necessarily what they were doing, but I don't see any evidence that they weren't doing that.
[30:19.720 --> 30:20.660]  Not in this story anyway.
[30:23.730 --> 30:25.510]  Okay, well, I guess everybody agrees with me then.
[30:26.590 --> 30:30.170]  Okay, so that's Kevin Paulson's story in Wired.
[30:30.410 --> 30:32.370]  Crazy long hacker sentence upheld.
[30:32.490 --> 30:33.870]  That's... it's a sad story.
[30:34.050 --> 30:35.270]  And I don't know.
[30:35.490 --> 30:39.870]  I sense this is like another Mitnick type of a deal where someone's just demonized.
[30:40.770 --> 30:46.930]  Well, the US Attorney did say he's just trying to make an example of this guy, and he hopes it's a deterrent to other people.
[30:47.150 --> 30:49.370]  Are these things deterrents to other people?
[30:49.550 --> 30:52.090]  They're really into saying deterrent in this place.
[30:52.290 --> 31:03.630]  I remember I attended the sentencing hearing of Adrian Lamo some time ago, and the judge was really into how this would be a deterrent for all kinds of other people who weren't involved.
[31:03.630 --> 31:07.450]  If you want to send a message, get on the television and talk and send a message that way.
[31:07.550 --> 31:11.510]  But don't use people as your mediums for sending messages because it doesn't work.
[31:11.810 --> 31:13.910]  You'll say, oh, I'm not that stupid.
[31:13.910 --> 31:14.890]  I won't do it that way.
[31:14.970 --> 31:15.970]  I'll do it differently.
[31:16.570 --> 31:24.150]  And there's also all kinds of sort of rebellious reactions to people who punish other people.
[31:24.310 --> 31:26.270]  And they come back and say, well, you know what?
[31:26.270 --> 31:27.850]  I'm going to do it anyway, and I'll show you.
[31:28.530 --> 31:29.410]  It doesn't work.
[31:29.550 --> 31:34.970]  He's sending messages by sentencing people to unfair prison terms just has never worked as far as I can see.
[31:35.290 --> 31:38.470]  Even the death penalty has been proven not to be a deterrent.
[31:40.090 --> 31:40.730]  Well, yeah.
[31:41.670 --> 31:43.450]  I guess we can open that whole debate as well.
[31:43.890 --> 31:54.730]  So, I mean, if electrocution or dying in the gas chamber is not a deterrent to committing crimes, how could this possibly be a deterrent?
[31:54.750 --> 31:56.450]  Well, those people certainly don't commit the crimes again.
[31:56.570 --> 31:57.950]  But yeah, other people do.
[31:58.590 --> 32:05.630]  Well, a deterrent from the standpoint of they're not alive anymore to commit crimes, but a deterrent to keep other people from doing that.
[32:05.870 --> 32:06.610]  It doesn't.
[32:06.690 --> 32:07.130]  It doesn't work.
[32:08.510 --> 32:08.910]  Okay.
[32:09.010 --> 32:10.090]  Moving on to another story.
[32:10.150 --> 32:13.930]  By the way, our pledge line is open 212-209-2950.
[32:14.090 --> 32:15.350]  I see we only have $230.
[32:16.150 --> 32:16.970]  That's not enough.
[32:17.110 --> 32:17.870]  Well, I mean, it's good.
[32:17.870 --> 32:19.730]  I appreciate all the people calling in with pledges.
[32:19.970 --> 32:21.470]  But we need more than that, folks.
[32:21.510 --> 32:25.490]  We need to get into the quadruple digits here, at least, for this hour.
[32:25.490 --> 32:27.310]  I know a lot of fundraisers.
[32:27.470 --> 32:32.190]  I know the station is in, you know, severe financial shape or whatever you want to call it.
[32:32.230 --> 32:37.350]  But we're still on the air and we're still broadcasting all kinds of provocative material.
[32:37.570 --> 32:41.930]  And as long as that's happening, we hope that you'll be there for us as well.
[32:42.050 --> 32:43.650]  212-209-2950.
[32:43.930 --> 32:44.950]  All different pledge levels.
[32:45.110 --> 32:49.090]  Ask the tally coordinators as you call in.
[32:49.610 --> 32:50.550]  Here's a story.
[32:51.610 --> 32:55.570]  State taxpayer data has been lost in the mail.
[32:56.270 --> 33:02.830]  Public and private tax information for about 2,400 individuals and roughly 48,000 businesses around the state.
[33:03.130 --> 33:04.270]  What state is this?
[33:04.490 --> 33:06.230]  State of Minnesota, I'm sorry, is missing.
[33:06.630 --> 33:08.350]  That's according to the Department of Revenue.
[33:08.630 --> 33:16.510]  The information was on a data tape in a package that was lost last month after being mailed by the department's Brainerd Regional Office.
[33:17.310 --> 33:18.710]  This is unacceptable.
[33:19.410 --> 33:24.090]  Sort of Revenue Commissioner Dan Solomon said, this is a nightmare for me.
[33:24.310 --> 33:26.790]  It's something every tax commissioner worries about.
[33:27.350 --> 33:31.270]  He said there is no indication that the package was stolen, but that scenario has not been ruled out.
[33:31.370 --> 33:31.630]  The U.S.
[33:31.730 --> 33:33.570]  Postal Service is conducting an investigation.
[33:33.710 --> 33:37.590]  We're treating it now as if it were stolen, said a spokesman for the post office.
[33:37.990 --> 33:46.110]  The information contained on the tape could easily open the door to identity theft because it contains the individual's names, their addresses, and social security numbers.
[33:46.630 --> 33:57.030]  Now that, to me, is a much bigger privacy invasion than somebody logging in in a parking lot and seeing if they can get your credit card number or just a list of credit card numbers that a store isn't protecting adequately.
[33:57.490 --> 33:59.850]  This kind of thing we hear about way too often.
[34:00.150 --> 34:01.950]  It seems like every week something like this is happening.
[34:02.090 --> 34:07.410]  The guy says he spends all his time thinking about it, but clearly he's not thinking that hard about ways to prevent it.
[34:07.410 --> 34:08.710]  No, apparently not.
[34:08.910 --> 34:10.830]  And nobody ever gets in trouble for this kind of thing.
[34:10.830 --> 34:13.870]  They just, you know, offer you free credit monitoring for a year.
[34:14.030 --> 34:14.230]  Yeah.
[34:14.730 --> 34:14.890]  Yeah.
[34:15.170 --> 34:17.610]  And nobody complains about that either.
[34:17.930 --> 34:21.450]  I think that this should really be like a liability.
[34:21.770 --> 34:33.310]  I mean, if the Postal Service is liable for, I guess, your package being destroyed to some degree, then they should also be liable for losing like very important stuff.
[34:33.590 --> 34:34.590]  And get this.
[34:34.730 --> 34:41.510]  This is the third time in less than a year that sensitive taxpayer information in Minnesota has been lost.
[34:41.650 --> 34:48.070]  An auditor's laptop was stolen and a portable hard drive was stolen from the purse of a department employee.
[34:48.370 --> 34:55.450]  Why in God's name are they carrying information about citizens in their purses and on hard drives?
[34:55.550 --> 34:56.770]  Unencrypted, I might add.
[34:56.770 --> 34:58.530]  I assume it's unencrypted.
[34:58.730 --> 34:59.770]  It's unencrypted, right?
[35:00.010 --> 35:00.550]  Of course.
[35:00.690 --> 35:01.770]  Don't give them too much credit.
[35:01.950 --> 35:02.050]  Yeah.
[35:02.290 --> 35:07.850]  You know, you have better security in corporate environments with their information the government has anyway.
[35:08.090 --> 35:08.990]  Some corporations.
[35:09.530 --> 35:12.730]  Well, the... You have better security in preteen environments.
[35:12.730 --> 35:17.070]  If anybody who's computer savvy and understands the first thing about how to keep data private.
[35:17.670 --> 35:20.050]  At WBAI, we keep your data private.
[35:20.350 --> 35:20.910]  That's true.
[35:21.070 --> 35:21.470]  That's true.
[35:21.530 --> 35:21.750]  We do.
[35:21.830 --> 35:30.410]  We don't go sending it out into postal oblivion and having anybody able to find it, be able to read your personal information.
[35:30.550 --> 35:34.090]  I did find the quote that... Oh, you found the quote?
[35:34.210 --> 35:34.390]  Yeah.
[35:34.690 --> 35:35.330]  Oh, good for you.
[35:35.650 --> 35:37.650]  Oh, this is Senator Ted Stevens.
[35:37.670 --> 35:40.090]  Oh, he's one of my favorites from Alaska.
[35:40.510 --> 35:40.930]  Okay.
[35:40.990 --> 35:41.690]  Here's the quote then.
[35:41.910 --> 35:47.570]  There's one company now you can sign up and you can get a movie delivered to your house daily by delivery service.
[35:48.390 --> 35:48.750]  Okay.
[35:49.110 --> 35:51.470]  He's reading some sort of, uh, I guess, scenario here.
[35:51.850 --> 35:53.330]  And currently it comes to your house.
[35:53.470 --> 35:57.390]  It gets put in the mailbox when you get home and you change your order, but you pay for that, right?
[35:58.010 --> 35:59.150]  Why is he talking like this?
[35:59.430 --> 36:00.430]  What does that mean?
[36:01.470 --> 36:01.830]  Man.
[36:02.010 --> 36:06.310]  Uh, but this service is now going to go through the internet and there's an asterisk next to that.
[36:06.710 --> 36:08.510]  Uh, go all the way down to the bottom.
[36:09.150 --> 36:15.750]  Uh, a little internet forensic works work explains why the internet took five days to travel from the Senator's staff to his inbox.
[36:16.130 --> 36:16.250]  Okay.
[36:17.310 --> 36:17.710]  Okay.
[36:17.810 --> 36:20.550]  Someone's, uh, someone on Wired is apparently analyzing this.
[36:20.590 --> 36:22.070]  This, this service is not going through the internet.
[36:22.110 --> 36:29.950]  And what you do is you just go to a place on the internet and you order your movie and guess what you can order 10 of them delivered to you and the delivery charge is free.
[36:30.430 --> 36:34.210]  And it's all one sentence with no commas, 10 of them streaming across that internet.
[36:34.410 --> 36:36.070]  And what happens to your own personal internet?
[36:36.470 --> 36:41.830]  I just, the other day got an internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday.
[36:42.110 --> 36:42.950]  And I just got it yesterday.
[36:43.330 --> 36:43.770]  Why?
[36:45.170 --> 36:49.330]  Because it got tangled up with all these things going on the internet commercially.
[36:50.150 --> 36:51.530]  So you want to talk about the consumer.
[36:51.670 --> 36:52.670]  Let's talk about you and me.
[36:52.830 --> 36:56.230]  We use this internet to communicate and we aren't using it for commercial purposes.
[36:56.470 --> 36:58.410]  We aren't earning anything by going on that internet.
[36:58.730 --> 37:02.070]  Now I'm not saying you have to, or you want to discriminate against those people.
[37:02.290 --> 37:04.190]  The regulatory approach is wrong.
[37:04.350 --> 37:09.990]  Your approach is regulatory in the sense that it says no one can charge anyone for massively invading this world of the internet.
[37:10.250 --> 37:11.150]  No, I'm not finished.
[37:11.730 --> 37:14.570]  I want people to understand my position.
[37:14.570 --> 37:16.130]  I'm not going to take a lot of time.
[37:16.890 --> 37:18.070]  I'm just going to babble on.
[37:18.110 --> 37:18.730]  I don't make any sense.
[37:19.210 --> 37:20.810]  They want to deliver...
[37:20.810 --> 37:22.130]  I'm willing to give him all the time.
[37:22.130 --> 37:23.830]  He needs to fill, explain his position.
[37:24.070 --> 37:24.490]  Yeah, please go on.
[37:24.610 --> 37:27.090]  It's like watching someone fall down the stairs.
[37:27.290 --> 37:27.870]  It's unbelievable.
[37:28.390 --> 37:30.890]  Not that I enjoy doing that, but wow, this is something else.
[37:31.350 --> 37:33.930]  They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the internet.
[37:34.110 --> 37:36.430]  And again, the internet is not something you just dump something on.
[37:36.430 --> 37:37.290]  It's not a truck.
[37:38.690 --> 37:40.090]  It's not a truck.
[37:40.270 --> 37:40.990]  The internet.
[37:42.270 --> 37:43.470]  That is true.
[37:43.830 --> 37:45.310]  Ted Stevens, 2006.
[37:45.850 --> 37:47.530]  The internet is not a truck.
[37:47.630 --> 37:48.190]  It's not a truck.
[37:48.350 --> 37:54.270]  As our listeners can see, the congressmen that vote on the laws that will affect them are very, very well informed.
[37:54.490 --> 37:55.130]  Oh, boy.
[37:55.270 --> 37:56.330]  You want to hear what it is?
[37:56.370 --> 37:56.930]  It's not a truck.
[37:56.930 --> 37:58.110]  It's a series of tubes.
[37:59.470 --> 38:01.750]  And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled.
[38:01.770 --> 38:04.410]  And if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line.
[38:04.410 --> 38:09.590]  It's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.
[38:10.310 --> 38:11.890]  Oh, is this supposed to be a song?
[38:12.030 --> 38:14.030]  Are we reading the lyrics to a song?
[38:14.170 --> 38:15.670]  Because that actually had some meter to it.
[38:16.450 --> 38:16.590]  Hmm.
[38:17.110 --> 38:19.630]  Now we have a separate Department of Defense internet now.
[38:19.770 --> 38:20.650]  Did you know that?
[38:21.490 --> 38:22.690]  Do you know why?
[38:23.030 --> 38:25.330]  Because they have to have theirs delivered immediately.
[38:25.450 --> 38:27.830]  They can't afford getting delayed by other people.
[38:28.170 --> 38:34.310]  I would imagine it's because they want it to be separate from the commercial internet so that they have to have their internet delivered right away.
[38:34.450 --> 38:40.350]  It's probably because they want their internet to work on, like, electrical cables, not these tubes that the rest of us use.
[38:41.470 --> 38:43.730]  But they're having their internet delivered.
[38:43.910 --> 38:44.910]  That's the phrase he's using.
[38:45.090 --> 38:45.270]  Yes.
[38:45.530 --> 38:48.050]  Their internet must be... Did you order this internet?
[38:48.250 --> 38:49.750]  It's by UPS?
[38:49.910 --> 38:49.990]  Yeah.
[38:50.090 --> 38:50.190]  Okay.
[38:50.250 --> 38:56.750]  Now I think these people are arguing whether they should be able to dump all that stuff on the internet or to consider if they should develop a system themselves.
[38:57.470 --> 38:59.590]  This doesn't even make grammatical sense at all.
[38:59.850 --> 39:06.330]  Now I think these people are arguing whether they should be able to dump all that stuff on the internet or to consider if they should develop a system themselves.
[39:07.110 --> 39:10.870]  Times like this, I think you should be able to be fine for grammar, especially if you're a senator.
[39:11.350 --> 39:11.890]  All right.
[39:12.250 --> 39:16.130]  Maybe there is a place for a commercial net, but it's not using what consumers use every day.
[39:16.450 --> 39:20.830]  It's not using the messaging service that is essential to small businesses to our operation of families.
[39:21.090 --> 39:29.210]  The whole concept is that we should not go into this until someone shows that there is something that has been done that really is a violation of net neutrality that hits you and me.
[39:30.530 --> 39:30.970]  End.
[39:31.890 --> 39:36.710]  I want to apologize for making Senator Stevens seem more intelligent than he actually was.
[39:36.930 --> 39:38.810]  Well, they didn't print that whole quote in the Times, I guess.
[39:39.010 --> 39:39.150]  No.
[39:39.930 --> 39:41.870]  So the internet is made out of tubes.
[39:42.130 --> 39:43.090]  That was the part that I've seen.
[39:43.090 --> 39:44.830]  No, the internet is a series of tubes.
[39:45.070 --> 39:47.190]  It's like the French postal system.
[39:47.330 --> 39:52.550]  Remember, they would put the letter in a little enclosure, and they put it in this tube.
[39:52.790 --> 39:57.810]  And a vacuum system throughout the city would send these containers around with people's letters.
[39:58.010 --> 40:00.250]  You know, I hate to tell you, but they had that in New York.
[40:01.070 --> 40:05.030]  I'm sorry, I hate to tell you, they had that in New York as well, up until the 50s.
[40:05.710 --> 40:13.630]  You know, it's interesting to hear him say that his email, I'm assuming an internet is an email, took five days to deliver.
[40:13.830 --> 40:17.990]  And that he attributes that to somebody downloading a movie somewhere.
[40:19.070 --> 40:22.550]  Not technical problems with their server or anything like that.
[40:22.550 --> 40:23.010]  No, no, no, no.
[40:23.550 --> 40:24.930]  Somebody downloaded a movie.
[40:25.090 --> 40:27.210]  My email took five days.
[40:27.690 --> 40:31.190]  Or maybe he just backlogged with spam, and it took him that long to read it.
[40:31.230 --> 40:32.230]  Or angry emails.
[40:32.590 --> 40:38.730]  Actually, some group of people made presentation slides for the speech, and they're really funny.
[40:38.890 --> 40:43.610]  You can probably find them if you Google, like, the senator's name, Stevens, and, like, presentation.
[40:44.550 --> 40:45.770]  And they're really funny.
[40:45.770 --> 40:47.350]  They're, like, pictures of trucks and tubes.
[40:47.610 --> 40:48.830]  Maybe we should present that at Hope.
[40:49.050 --> 40:49.990]  That would be funny.
[40:50.070 --> 40:50.410]  That would be kind of cool.
[40:50.690 --> 40:52.610]  It has struck me that...
[40:54.270 --> 40:56.430]  Oh, gosh, I lost my... Go on.
[40:56.590 --> 40:56.870]  Okay.
[40:57.510 --> 40:59.350]  Someone will strike Jim and get his train back.
[41:00.550 --> 41:01.630]  Here's another story.
[41:01.710 --> 41:03.370]  And, by the way, I'm dismayed at the...
[41:03.370 --> 41:05.930]  I know everyone's riveted by the story of Ted Stevens and the internets.
[41:06.090 --> 41:06.830]  Oh, I got it.
[41:07.110 --> 41:08.090]  Well, I'm into the pitch now.
[41:08.170 --> 41:08.530]  Oh.
[41:08.530 --> 41:16.690]  Please give us a call at 212-209-2950 because the phone lines are dead, and we're still at $230, and we've got to get much higher than that.
[41:16.770 --> 41:19.550]  Mike, what are some of the things the kind folk can get for calling up?
[41:19.570 --> 41:19.690]  Sure.
[41:19.750 --> 41:21.730]  For $25 is the basic membership.
[41:21.910 --> 41:24.510]  Anything above that is, of course, appreciated.
[41:25.050 --> 41:27.590]  By being a basic member, you also get to vote and...
[41:27.590 --> 41:28.170]  You get to vote.
[41:28.290 --> 41:30.650]  You get a membership card, which I...
[41:30.650 --> 41:32.210]  This is the WBAI membership card.
[41:32.210 --> 41:37.570]  The WBAI membership card, which you can show to all your friends, and maybe even some places will give you a discount.
[41:37.570 --> 41:39.390]  When you get pulled over by the cop, show it to them.
[41:39.630 --> 41:40.730]  I don't think that'll help.
[41:40.910 --> 41:42.030]  Laughter is the best medicine.
[41:42.210 --> 41:42.630]  Maybe.
[41:43.030 --> 41:43.290]  All right.
[41:43.430 --> 41:54.450]  But if you pledge $60 or more, we will show our appreciation to you by sending you your choice of a mug, a tote bag, a baseball cap, or a t-shirt in your choice of size.
[41:54.710 --> 41:55.150]  Mm-hmm.
[41:55.610 --> 42:03.050]  And if you pledge $125, we will send you the gold package, which is a hat, a mug, and a tote bag.
[42:03.430 --> 42:03.690]  Okay.
[42:03.690 --> 42:03.770]  Okay.
[42:05.190 --> 42:06.910]  212-209-2950.
[42:07.250 --> 42:07.850]  That's our phone number.
[42:08.130 --> 42:12.950]  We have one call on the line, and there's a lot of really cool things.
[42:13.350 --> 42:14.350]  Yeah, I see the one call on the line.
[42:14.410 --> 42:14.670]  Two calls.
[42:14.710 --> 42:15.330]  Two calls on the line.
[42:15.450 --> 42:16.070]  Okay, good, good.
[42:16.170 --> 42:16.510]  Two calls.
[42:17.470 --> 42:18.670]  212-209-2950.
[42:18.670 --> 42:20.310]  Let's bring that number up.
[42:20.350 --> 42:22.410]  And, of course, there's no limit to what you can pledge.
[42:22.410 --> 42:24.970]  We have all sorts of things down there, all sorts of...
[42:24.970 --> 42:27.030]  You just basically read a few things.
[42:27.290 --> 42:28.190]  There's more than that, right?
[42:28.670 --> 42:29.470]  There's many more.
[42:29.650 --> 42:29.970]  Many more.
[42:30.010 --> 42:30.410]  Oh, my God.
[42:30.550 --> 42:31.610]  Hundreds, thousands of pages.
[42:31.610 --> 42:38.210]  And you can pledge online, because so far, net neutrality is still in existence, even though it hasn't been legislated.
[42:38.370 --> 42:39.670]  We won't see you if you pledge online.
[42:39.830 --> 42:42.150]  Pledge by calling now, and we'll see that number go up.
[42:42.230 --> 42:43.310]  Which is much better for us.
[42:43.390 --> 42:43.650]  Yes.
[42:43.810 --> 42:45.150]  And for the volunteers.
[42:45.370 --> 42:46.830]  That's a much more social experience.
[42:46.830 --> 42:47.130]  It is.
[42:47.130 --> 42:47.370]  All around.
[42:47.470 --> 42:47.770]  It is.
[42:48.570 --> 42:50.070]  212-209-2950.
[42:50.310 --> 42:52.630]  Mike, why don't you pick something at random from the back of that page?
[42:52.630 --> 42:53.030]  Oh, my God.
[42:53.410 --> 42:54.070]  Another premium.
[42:54.310 --> 42:56.190]  Just to give an example of the other kinds of things we have.
[42:56.330 --> 43:00.170]  There's a CD called From Protest to Resistance, Iraq Veterans Against War.
[43:00.170 --> 43:00.890]  There you go.
[43:01.830 --> 43:04.570]  If you want to hear that, that's there for you.
[43:04.890 --> 43:05.250]  Yeah.
[43:05.450 --> 43:06.610]  But there's many other things, too.
[43:06.710 --> 43:07.410]  There's so many things.
[43:07.710 --> 43:09.370]  CDs and DVDs and...
[43:09.370 --> 43:10.590]  A book by Greg Palast.
[43:10.710 --> 43:10.750]  Books.
[43:10.770 --> 43:11.550]  Our Madhouse.
[43:11.730 --> 43:12.150]  There you go.
[43:12.550 --> 43:14.310]  And it's a poster of Greg Palast right behind you.
[43:14.390 --> 43:15.730]  So it's sort of thematic.
[43:16.110 --> 43:18.550]  A poster for the very book that you can get by pledge.
[43:18.670 --> 43:19.670]  It all ties in.
[43:19.950 --> 43:21.210]  And people will see it.
[43:21.250 --> 43:24.550]  You have these cool things and think better of you as a result.
[43:24.550 --> 43:26.830]  212-209-2950.
[43:27.090 --> 43:28.210]  We're going to go into some more news.
[43:28.250 --> 43:32.270]  And I really hope when I turn my head again that that number has gone up substantially.
[43:32.650 --> 43:33.710]  Now, Jim, you found your train of thought.
[43:33.710 --> 43:34.490]  I found my train of thought.
[43:34.810 --> 43:44.530]  Even if the senator had it so that commercial sites paid to get their stuff across, it would not be good for him.
[43:44.570 --> 43:45.870]  And he doesn't realize this.
[43:45.870 --> 43:51.890]  Because the people downloading the movies and paying for it, they would still be downloading fast.
[43:51.910 --> 43:54.670]  And his email would still be held up because of it.
[43:54.850 --> 43:59.530]  Well, unless his email company paid the extortion fee to get faster connectivity.
[43:59.750 --> 44:00.370]  Well, perhaps.
[44:00.630 --> 44:01.230]  And faster delivery.
[44:01.550 --> 44:04.350]  Maybe they could just use the money and build the additional tools.
[44:04.430 --> 44:05.810]  Well, you remember he works for the government.
[44:05.810 --> 44:09.030]  So I'm sure he'll be exempt from this whole business.
[44:09.310 --> 44:09.650]  Probably.
[44:09.950 --> 44:10.490]  Yeah, probably.
[44:12.050 --> 44:12.530]  Wow.
[44:12.670 --> 44:13.710]  That's something.
[44:13.710 --> 44:16.910]  I mean, I'll just give you a sobering sense of who's actually making the laws.
[44:17.110 --> 44:20.630]  The problem is probably that the whole internet takes a long time to fit down a tube.
[44:20.830 --> 44:21.570]  So while he's...
[44:21.570 --> 44:22.810]  It's a big tube.
[44:22.990 --> 44:24.130]  It's a very big tube.
[44:24.790 --> 44:25.090]  All right, here's...
[44:25.090 --> 44:27.410]  Emmanuel, in Alaska, we need to...
[44:27.410 --> 44:28.730]  He needs more tubes.
[44:28.950 --> 44:34.230]  And I think he's proposing a federal grant called Tubes to Nowhere.
[44:35.650 --> 44:36.330]  Yeah, well, he's...
[44:36.330 --> 44:38.010]  Kind of like the bridge to nowhere to Alaska?
[44:38.210 --> 44:38.750]  Halfway there.
[44:39.930 --> 44:41.110]  He's in his 70s.
[44:41.250 --> 44:42.270]  Pretty soon he'll need tubes.
[44:42.270 --> 44:43.870]  Okay, enough of that.
[44:45.510 --> 44:56.130]  The State Department is recovering from large-scale computer break-ins worldwide over the past several weeks that appeared to target the headquarters and offices dealing with China and North Korea.
[44:56.870 --> 44:59.670]  Investigators believe hackers stole sensitive U.S.
[44:59.750 --> 45:08.230]  information and passwords and implanted backdoors in unclassified government computers to allow them to return at will, said U.S.
[45:08.310 --> 45:10.490]  officials familiar with the hacking.
[45:10.970 --> 45:17.350]  These people spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the widespread intrusions and a resulting investigation.
[45:17.350 --> 45:18.350]  That doesn't make any sense.
[45:18.530 --> 45:20.870]  Why do they have to be anonymous because of the sensitivity of the information?
[45:21.150 --> 45:21.690]  They don't...
[45:21.690 --> 45:23.270]  The information isn't part of their name, is it?
[45:23.750 --> 45:28.550]  Obviously, this shows that all hacking is being outsourced, too, so, you know, better be careful.
[45:28.890 --> 45:34.490]  Yeah, the break-ins in the State Department's emergency response severely limited Internet access at many locations.
[45:34.490 --> 45:37.530]  This might have been what took Ted Stevens' mail five days to get to him.
[45:37.530 --> 45:42.370]  Including some headquarters offices in Washington, these officials said.
[45:42.470 --> 45:48.650]  Internet connections have been restored across nearly all the departments since the break-ins were recognized in mid-June.
[45:49.030 --> 45:54.890]  The department did detect anomalies... anomalies, I'm sorry, in network traffic.
[45:55.430 --> 46:01.610]  And we thought it prudent to ensure our system's integrity, said department spokesman Curtis Cooper.
[46:01.850 --> 46:03.490]  Go ahead, use my name, I don't care.
[46:04.410 --> 46:10.670]  Asked what information was stolen by the hackers, Cooper said, because the investigation is continuing, I don't think we even know.
[46:11.590 --> 46:25.690]  Tracing the origin of such break-ins is difficult, but employees said to the Associated Press that the hackers appeared to hit computers especially hard at headquarters and inside the Bureau of East Asian and Pacific Affairs, which coordinates diplomacy in countries including China,
[46:25.850 --> 46:27.250]  the Koreas, and Japan.
[46:27.790 --> 46:32.530]  And then, of course, they go into this whole big thing about North Korea launching missiles and how that has to be related somehow.
[46:32.530 --> 46:35.010]  I don't think they have internet in North Korea.
[46:35.150 --> 46:36.230]  No, they don't have internet in North Korea.
[46:36.470 --> 46:36.970]  Bernie, yes.
[46:37.230 --> 46:40.270]  The best quote in this story is the one you almost got to.
[46:40.550 --> 46:48.090]  And it's where it says, the Pentagon warned earlier this year that China's army is emphasizing hacking as an offensive weapon.
[46:48.450 --> 46:57.610]  It cited Chinese military exercises in 2005 that included hacking primarily in first strikes against enemy networks.
[46:57.790 --> 46:59.530]  So hacking is an offensive weapon.
[46:59.530 --> 47:01.270]  And this isn't the first time this has happened.
[47:01.350 --> 47:03.570]  Remember the whole spy plane incident a number of years ago?
[47:03.770 --> 47:07.710]  All of a sudden, Chinese hackers were attacking U.S.
[47:08.230 --> 47:08.550]  interests.
[47:08.550 --> 47:15.330]  And we were being urged by so many people, most of them inside the military, to start attacking Chinese sites.
[47:15.490 --> 47:18.210]  So this is something that militaries of all countries want.
[47:18.410 --> 47:25.010]  They want all these hackers to turn into soldiers and start defending their national interests by destroying other national interests.
[47:25.010 --> 47:27.470]  Same game, just a different headline.
[47:28.470 --> 47:30.470]  Happens every time something occurs in the world.
[47:30.750 --> 47:31.270]  From medium.
[47:31.890 --> 47:32.210]  Yeah.
[47:33.050 --> 47:34.270]  Two calls on the line.
[47:34.570 --> 47:36.470]  212-209-2950.
[47:36.470 --> 47:39.150]  Let's see if we can get five or six calls on the line.
[47:39.230 --> 47:43.450]  We only have a few minutes left, and we'd sure like to see that support come pouring in.
[47:44.230 --> 47:45.530]  Here's a story that's kind of interesting.
[47:45.530 --> 47:45.970]  The U.S.
[47:46.030 --> 47:50.690]  House of Representatives has backed a bill which aims to rein in online gambling.
[47:51.190 --> 47:59.510]  The bill aims to limit internet gambling by making it illegal for U.S.-based banks and credit card firms to make payments to online gambling sites.
[48:00.050 --> 48:06.230]  Estimates suggest the online gaming industry generates $12 billion a year worldwide.
[48:06.490 --> 48:06.750]  Half.
[48:06.890 --> 48:07.970]  Half of that from U.S.
[48:08.070 --> 48:08.430]  gamblers.
[48:09.130 --> 48:19.190]  Critics have attacked the proposals as an outrageous measure, claiming it aims to stir up the more conservative sectors of society ahead of the elections and to boost the Republican Party's chances.
[48:19.210 --> 48:29.870]  However, one of the bill's sponsors, Republican Bob Goodlatte, claimed the plans aim to control a scourge on society which causes innumerable problems.
[48:30.430 --> 48:31.250]  Horseback racing.
[48:31.570 --> 48:32.630]  What about horseback racing?
[48:33.090 --> 48:33.930]  It's exempt.
[48:34.510 --> 48:38.090]  This bill exempts thoroughbred horse racing gambling.
[48:38.530 --> 48:38.910]  Really?
[48:39.270 --> 48:39.530]  Online?
[48:39.710 --> 48:39.890]  Yeah.
[48:40.250 --> 48:40.630]  Online.
[48:40.850 --> 48:41.110]  Wow.
[48:41.910 --> 48:42.490]  Well, that's...
[48:42.490 --> 48:45.490]  They paid extra so they could get exempt.
[48:46.670 --> 48:47.010]  Okay.
[48:47.770 --> 48:48.490]  That's something.
[48:48.610 --> 48:49.130]  Well, I mean, it's...
[48:49.130 --> 48:52.990]  Horse racing, of course, harms all kinds of entities, among them the horses.
[48:53.190 --> 48:53.390]  Yeah.
[48:56.030 --> 48:57.250]  I'm flabbergasted by the whole thing.
[48:57.430 --> 48:59.770]  But the online gambling is interesting.
[48:59.950 --> 49:02.890]  Has anyone ever used an online gambling site in this room?
[49:03.030 --> 49:03.470]  You have, Jim?
[49:03.670 --> 49:03.850]  Yeah.
[49:03.910 --> 49:04.290]  What's it like?
[49:04.290 --> 49:06.550]  You just basically click on something and all your money goes away?
[49:06.650 --> 49:07.070]  Well, okay.
[49:07.090 --> 49:07.710]  I don't gamble.
[49:07.810 --> 49:09.190]  I play poker, which is a little different.
[49:09.370 --> 49:09.710]  Wait a minute.
[49:09.810 --> 49:09.930]  Wait.
[49:09.970 --> 49:10.250]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[49:10.250 --> 49:11.890]  You play poker, that's not gambling?
[49:12.130 --> 49:17.170]  When you're gambling, all outcomes other than the one that's desirous are more likely.
[49:17.450 --> 49:27.010]  When you play poker, ideally, definitely when you have a cinch hand, the outcome that you're betting on is the most likely, or at least you believe it to be the most likely.
[49:27.010 --> 49:30.530]  I like the way he talks, talking about things like this.
[49:30.950 --> 49:31.730]  That's, okay.
[49:31.750 --> 49:32.830]  I'm going to accept that.
[49:32.950 --> 49:33.870]  So, okay, continue.
[49:34.190 --> 49:34.690]  Yeah.
[49:34.910 --> 49:36.790]  It's, it's, it's, they're very simple.
[49:37.070 --> 49:39.950]  You, in most cases, you download software, but not all.
[49:40.110 --> 49:41.370]  Some are Java-based.
[49:41.670 --> 49:51.810]  And it resembles a cartoon version in less dimensions of a casino or a poker game or, or whatever.
[49:51.810 --> 49:59.270]  You, you put money in through PayPal or MasterCard or whatever, and then that's your account.
[49:59.270 --> 50:03.810]  And you say, how much would you like to risk at this poker game at this table at this time?
[50:03.810 --> 50:08.010]  But there's nothing to stop you from basically losing everything you own in this matter.
[50:08.030 --> 50:11.930]  Everything that you have on site, everything that you've, that you've put in.
[50:12.010 --> 50:13.470]  You have a bankroll, so to speak.
[50:13.570 --> 50:13.650]  Right.
[50:13.730 --> 50:15.770]  And you can keep putting things into that bankroll, correct?
[50:15.810 --> 50:20.710]  You can also, in the stock market, buy stocks that go down in value.
[50:20.850 --> 50:27.030]  And then after you've lost your money, put more money into your brokerage account and buy another stock that goes down in value.
[50:27.290 --> 50:29.030]  Yes, you can lose money in many ways.
[50:29.030 --> 50:29.570]  But you don't do it instantly.
[50:30.070 --> 50:32.870]  It takes time for the stock market to crash and for you to lose your investment.
[50:32.870 --> 50:36.130]  And this, you can just click a button, and all of a sudden, there's 20 grand, gone.
[50:36.410 --> 50:36.670]  Wonderful.
[50:36.770 --> 50:37.970]  You can go to Atlantic City.
[50:38.130 --> 50:39.850]  It takes three hours more for all this stuff.
[50:39.850 --> 50:41.630]  Not if you're six years old, you can't.
[50:42.270 --> 50:44.870]  If you're six years old, how are you going to get to your credit card?
[50:45.370 --> 50:47.430]  How do you have a credit card if you're six?
[50:47.590 --> 50:47.970]  You don't.
[50:47.970 --> 50:48.750]  Your parents do.
[50:48.910 --> 50:50.690]  What are your parents doing letting you have your credit card?
[50:51.130 --> 50:54.470]  Look, credit cards left on the kitchen counter one day, and look what happens.
[50:54.570 --> 51:00.890]  This is a case... well, the problem is not that it's wrong in that case from Goodlatte's point of view.
[51:00.890 --> 51:03.970]  The problem is it's wrong because the kid should not have a credit card.
[51:04.110 --> 51:04.830]  Oh, I agree with that.
[51:05.670 --> 51:09.870]  But it just seems like, you know, if you're going to gamble, you should go through something to gamble.
[51:10.090 --> 51:13.370]  Like, by traveling someplace or, you know, doing something in person.
[51:13.370 --> 51:15.110]  Well, this discriminates against the handicap, then.
[51:15.210 --> 51:15.670]  No, it doesn't.
[51:15.770 --> 51:17.490]  Handicapped people can go places.
[51:17.870 --> 51:19.090]  What if you're in an iron lung?
[51:19.290 --> 51:20.630]  Not that I think anybody still is.
[51:20.650 --> 51:21.010]  In an iron lung?
[51:21.010 --> 51:22.010]  Are you really going to be gambling?
[51:22.330 --> 51:24.150]  I mean, I think you have more pressing concerns.
[51:24.790 --> 51:25.530]  Well, never mind.
[51:25.950 --> 51:27.170]  Well, I take your mind off it.
[51:27.770 --> 51:30.790]  If you're a gambling addict, and it's causing...
[51:30.790 --> 51:32.510]  And gambling is causing you problems.
[51:32.730 --> 51:36.350]  I don't think traveling somewhere is going to be very much of a deterrent.
[51:36.950 --> 51:37.330]  Exactly.
[51:37.990 --> 51:41.170]  The problem is there, you know, whether or not it's online.
[51:42.610 --> 51:43.930]  So making it...
[51:43.930 --> 51:47.750]  Whatever they're doing to make it online more difficult or harder or illegal.
[51:48.610 --> 51:52.250]  Well, I mean, whatever they're trying to do, I'm sure, is half-assed and stupid.
[51:52.490 --> 51:53.830]  I'm not defending that.
[51:53.830 --> 52:01.190]  I'm just saying that online gambling makes it very, very easy for people to be completely wiped out very quickly.
[52:01.350 --> 52:03.250]  It's very easy if you go to a casino, too.
[52:03.550 --> 52:05.770]  Well, yeah, but then, you know, you went to the casino.
[52:05.990 --> 52:09.110]  How do you prove that you're the one that actually did all this?
[52:09.190 --> 52:15.030]  You could say, oh, someone hacked into my PayPal account or something, and all of a sudden, all my money is gone.
[52:15.310 --> 52:17.190]  Do you have any kind of recourse if that happens?
[52:18.390 --> 52:19.590]  Ah, we don't know, do we?
[52:20.610 --> 52:22.770]  And so it's a bit more difficult.
[52:23.030 --> 52:24.290]  It's a bit not as clear-cut.
[52:24.350 --> 52:26.690]  You go into a casino and you gamble away your life savings.
[52:26.870 --> 52:28.250]  Yeah, you know, you did it.
[52:28.290 --> 52:28.730]  You went there.
[52:28.810 --> 52:29.810]  There's no question about that.
[52:30.330 --> 52:31.970]  You took the actual actions.
[52:32.610 --> 52:36.390]  It's the offshore gambling that this law is focused on.
[52:37.450 --> 52:41.470]  And it's largely unenforceable, this proposed law.
[52:41.470 --> 52:41.870]  That's true.
[52:41.970 --> 52:42.590]  That's true, it is.
[52:44.710 --> 52:53.970]  So, again, this speaks to what you'd read earlier, that this is political grandstanding to appeal to more conservative types before the election.
[52:54.130 --> 52:55.830]  Although, Jim's a conservative gambler.
[52:56.610 --> 53:00.130]  Well, he's conservative, but I don't know how conservative a gambler he is.
[53:01.570 --> 53:01.910]  Redact.
[53:02.170 --> 53:07.810]  Aha, but if we don't have net neutrality, we could squeeze off those offshore gambling websites.
[53:08.150 --> 53:08.830]  Well, I don't know.
[53:08.890 --> 53:10.530]  This is a collision of worlds here.
[53:10.530 --> 53:18.350]  But, you know, I think there might be some kind of technical solution just to keep it from happening so easily where people can just lose everything like that.
[53:18.390 --> 53:18.610]  I don't know.
[53:18.690 --> 53:20.130]  It just bothers me seeing that happen.
[53:20.310 --> 53:22.250]  It bothers me when I see people buying lottery tickets.
[53:22.370 --> 53:23.770]  It's called personal responsibility.
[53:23.930 --> 53:25.730]  If they want to go to hell in a handbasket, let them.
[53:25.950 --> 53:30.430]  Okay, but if you're going to be personally irresponsible, it should be obvious that it's you being personally irresponsible.
[53:30.490 --> 53:31.370]  That's my only point.
[53:31.550 --> 53:35.790]  And when you're just clicking on mouses and, you know, screens and things like that.
[53:35.790 --> 53:44.870]  We'll have the government regulate the net so that every computer has those fingerprint readers and the notes here.
[53:44.890 --> 53:45.650]  There's a solution right there.
[53:45.710 --> 53:49.010]  Listen, we're just about out of time, and we desperately need some more phone calls.
[53:49.110 --> 53:51.610]  So we have to really beg now.
[53:51.930 --> 53:53.190]  And we're not kidding anymore.
[53:53.490 --> 53:54.630]  We might have been kidding before.
[53:54.710 --> 53:55.390]  We're not kidding now.
[53:55.390 --> 53:58.450]  So 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[53:58.690 --> 54:06.270]  We're in the middle of a pledge drive, the summer pledge drive, the mini-thon that happens every now and then, usually in the summer.
[54:06.450 --> 54:07.810]  Is that what they call it, mini-thon?
[54:07.950 --> 54:08.630]  I think so.
[54:08.770 --> 54:09.190]  I think so.
[54:09.270 --> 54:11.110]  It's not like the usual fundraiser.
[54:11.190 --> 54:13.030]  This is the quickie.
[54:13.350 --> 54:14.570]  Mini-summer drive, it says.
[54:14.690 --> 54:15.470]  Mini-summer drive.
[54:16.330 --> 54:20.370]  So we depend on you, our listeners, to help keep the station going.
[54:20.370 --> 54:22.190]  It takes a lot to keep a station like this going.
[54:22.190 --> 54:27.950]  We're in the middle of New York City, 50,000 watts, getting to four different states, and we have an audience all around the world.
[54:28.130 --> 54:32.010]  And all sorts of history has been made inside these mini-walls.
[54:32.770 --> 54:34.590]  So please keep that going.
[54:34.770 --> 54:37.070]  Keep that momentum going.
[54:37.450 --> 54:39.150]  212-209-2950.
[54:39.410 --> 54:41.830]  Let's run down the categories one more time.
[54:42.050 --> 54:42.350]  Sure.
[54:42.490 --> 54:46.870]  For $25 and up, you get the membership, including the valuable membership card.
[54:47.370 --> 54:56.170]  But if you pledge $60 or more, you will, in addition, get your choice of a WBAI mug, tote bag, baseball cap, or t-shirt.
[54:57.270 --> 55:02.130]  And $125 is the gold package, which is the hat, mug, and tote bag.
[55:02.250 --> 55:05.110]  So if you want everything, $125 is what you pledge.
[55:05.150 --> 55:06.150]  Well, you don't get the t-shirt.
[55:06.290 --> 55:07.010]  You don't get the t-shirt.
[55:07.050 --> 55:07.790]  It's not part of the gold package.
[55:07.830 --> 55:08.730]  How do you get the t-shirt, then?
[55:08.790 --> 55:10.650]  What do you have to do to get the t-shirt in addition to all that?
[55:10.950 --> 55:11.470]  I don't know.
[55:11.530 --> 55:12.870]  Maybe you pledge an additional $60?
[55:13.310 --> 55:14.770]  Is there a gold-plus package?
[55:15.490 --> 55:16.130]  I don't know.
[55:16.210 --> 55:16.810]  It's not on here.
[55:16.970 --> 55:19.790]  This is a conversation you could be having with the people in the tally room right now.
[55:19.850 --> 55:23.710]  And they know the answer is far better than we do because everybody asks them these questions.
[55:24.130 --> 55:25.030]  I hope they do.
[55:25.290 --> 55:26.930]  212-209-2950.
[55:27.110 --> 55:28.510]  There are two people on the line right now.
[55:28.710 --> 55:29.370]  That's not enough.
[55:29.430 --> 55:30.550]  We need to get more than that.
[55:30.690 --> 55:31.530]  We need to get more than that.
[55:31.610 --> 55:33.330]  There are like five or six people down there.
[55:33.850 --> 55:41.930]  And we have 15 lines, so we know we can supply people to our kind tally folks who have showed up tonight.
[55:42.050 --> 55:44.350]  Our tube is very large for receiving pledges.
[55:44.350 --> 55:47.010]  Yes, we have a very large tube on all of our internets.
[55:47.850 --> 55:49.790]  212-209-2950.
[55:51.430 --> 55:53.650]  We have two calls, two more calls coming in.
[55:54.630 --> 55:57.370]  And we certainly want to keep that momentum going.
[55:57.590 --> 56:00.810]  212-209-2950 is the phone number.
[56:00.970 --> 56:03.970]  Country code is 1 if you're outside the United States.
[56:04.150 --> 56:07.230]  Now, keep in mind all the things that we've done over the airwaves over the years here.
[56:07.230 --> 56:14.170]  We've talked about various initiatives that are not good ideas like we did tonight.
[56:14.170 --> 56:17.110]  We've talked about hackers in prison like Bernie.
[56:17.330 --> 56:18.590]  You were once one of them.
[56:18.590 --> 56:22.810]  And we talked about your case every single week and kept people updated.
[56:23.270 --> 56:26.430]  There was a whole Kevin Mitnick story in the fiber optic case.
[56:26.690 --> 56:30.450]  And just watching the technology changing over the years.
[56:30.630 --> 56:32.250]  Our first show was in 1988.
[56:33.290 --> 56:35.590]  And we became a regular series in 1991.
[56:35.650 --> 56:37.010]  We've been going ever since.
[56:37.190 --> 56:39.550]  And there's always something interesting to talk about.
[56:40.070 --> 56:45.890]  And many times our listeners are the ones to bring it to our attention by either calling on the air or sending us something.
[56:46.990 --> 56:50.130]  And it's just been an incredible experience.
[56:50.470 --> 56:52.710]  And imagine if it never happened.
[56:52.970 --> 56:54.410]  Imagine if it wasn't here.
[56:54.710 --> 56:58.130]  Imagine if there was no radio station that would allow you to do this.
[56:58.150 --> 57:00.590]  And there is no other radio station that would allow you to do this.
[57:00.590 --> 57:10.710]  If this station were to go dark tomorrow, there would be no other frequency in all of New York City and probably the surrounding areas where we could just go and have a conversation like we're having now.
[57:10.910 --> 57:12.330]  Now, some of you may say that's a good thing.
[57:12.610 --> 57:18.510]  But I think many of you would prefer to hear us in the weeks and months and years ahead.
[57:18.870 --> 57:21.510]  Well, you can vote in favor of that.
[57:21.610 --> 57:24.610]  You can invest in the radio station by calling and pledging.
[57:24.730 --> 57:25.730]  Anything you can afford.
[57:25.870 --> 57:27.230]  The important thing is the pledge.
[57:27.230 --> 57:32.410]  And whether it's $10 or $1,000, it all adds up.
[57:32.730 --> 57:38.050]  And we will give you back whatever we can as far as tokens of our appreciation.
[57:38.730 --> 57:44.630]  But most importantly, we will give you this radio station's signal continuing into the years.
[57:45.510 --> 57:45.750]  All right.
[57:45.850 --> 57:49.390]  212-209-2950.
[57:50.570 --> 57:54.490]  Let's get some more calls coming in as we fade away.
[57:55.530 --> 57:56.750]  We'll see you next week.
[57:58.730 --> 58:02.350]  www.hope.net for information on the conference.
[58:02.950 --> 58:05.130]  OTH at 2600.com to write us.
[58:05.250 --> 58:05.410]  Good night.
[58:05.410 --> 58:21.690]  The phone in the clouds all blue Lying on an eyedadown Yippee, you can't see me But I can you
[58:26.410 --> 58:41.710]  Blazing in the foggy dew Sitting on a unicorn No fear It can't steal me But I can you
[58:46.280 --> 59:02.370]  Watching buttercups drop the light Sitting on a dandelion Too much I won't touch you But then I fight
[01:00:20.310 --> 01:00:23.020]  Hey, hey, hey, hey.
[01:00:23.580 --> 01:00:31.940]  You're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM on this beautiful summer evening.
[01:00:31.940 --> 01:00:35.460]  And it is July the 12th, 2006.