[00:00.000 --> 00:03.280]  You can call, get some advice from Fair Housing Council.
[00:03.420 --> 00:04.280]  You can call, talk to us.
[00:04.420 --> 00:05.800]  We will tell you what your rights are.
[00:06.020 --> 00:10.020]  For now, members of the coalition hope the judge will stop the ordinance temporarily.
[00:10.740 --> 00:17.480]  Two weeks ago, a federal judge blocked a similar law in Pennsylvania because he found that it was harmful for landowners and immigrant tenants.
[00:17.960 --> 00:23.500]  The Pennsylvania decision has raised the hopes of San Diego activists that their case will take a similar path.
[00:23.920 --> 00:27.300]  For Free Speech Radio News, this is Alonso Rivera in San Diego.
[00:28.160 --> 00:33.200]  You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News from KPFK in Los Angeles, I'm Al Abogado.
[00:35.900 --> 00:39.080]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:39.280 --> 00:44.440]  The time is just about 7 o'clock, which means once again, it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:01.170 --> 01:02.410]  Couldn't get much worse,
[01:05.720 --> 01:07.960]  they bombed for the best, it's back the worst.
[01:08.680 --> 01:11.480]  I hope that's understood, but didn't it go?
[01:47.990 --> 01:49.050]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:49.190 --> 01:50.770]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:50.870 --> 01:53.990]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[01:54.330 --> 01:56.290]  Joined this week by Redbird.
[01:56.470 --> 01:56.870]  Good evening.
[01:57.490 --> 01:57.950]  Arseny.
[01:58.170 --> 01:58.330]  Hello.
[01:58.630 --> 01:58.990]  Jim.
[01:59.370 --> 01:59.610]  Hi.
[01:59.790 --> 02:00.230]  Bernie S.
[02:00.330 --> 02:01.090]  down there in Philadelphia.
[02:01.690 --> 02:03.350]  Live from 30th Street Station.
[02:03.350 --> 02:04.850]  Oh, you're standing in a train station.
[02:04.930 --> 02:05.310]  Good for you.
[02:05.410 --> 02:06.750]  I'm sitting at the train station.
[02:07.110 --> 02:11.870]  And other assorted guests may be wandering in and talking to us about various things.
[02:13.130 --> 02:19.790]  We have all sorts of special events to talk about, special happenings.
[02:19.890 --> 02:21.610]  I guess the most important is tomorrow night.
[02:22.030 --> 02:28.290]  The Hope Conference concludes several months after it began over in New Jersey.
[02:28.630 --> 02:30.530]  And we expect to see you there.
[02:30.690 --> 02:31.450]  It's free admission.
[02:31.450 --> 02:36.490]  And we're going to tell you everything you need to know about how to get there, what it's going to be all about, and all that.
[02:36.670 --> 02:40.770]  I want to thank everybody for writing in with their voting adventures.
[02:40.790 --> 02:42.290]  Let's go over a couple of those.
[02:42.670 --> 02:49.550]  I'd like to know if anyone here has any new chapters in electronic voting or anything else that you might have done last week.
[02:50.250 --> 02:58.310]  This reader writes in, in Muskegon County in Ohio, it was required that everyone showed a picture ID before being allowed to sign their name.
[02:58.310 --> 03:01.670]  The address on my driver's license was different from my actual address.
[03:02.010 --> 03:04.050]  This is the second year of voting in this precinct.
[03:04.130 --> 03:06.190]  They almost didn't let me or my wife vote.
[03:06.470 --> 03:07.850]  I believe our machines were deballed.
[03:08.190 --> 03:10.410]  There was a smart card given to me to vote.
[03:10.530 --> 03:11.810]  It was programmed by one individual.
[03:11.970 --> 03:15.790]  And I never thought to ask how I knew it was different from the others.
[03:16.250 --> 03:18.150]  It was easy to see how others were voting.
[03:18.390 --> 03:22.030]  There was a paper printer that showed how you voted after you were complete.
[03:22.030 --> 03:25.270]  These were covered and scrolled forward when you were done.
[03:25.690 --> 03:27.830]  You could not see how the last person voted.
[03:28.150 --> 03:29.370]  That's from Matt.
[03:29.650 --> 03:31.790]  Call sign KC8BEW.
[03:32.010 --> 03:32.790]  Is that a call sign?
[03:33.010 --> 03:33.190]  Yep.
[03:33.430 --> 03:33.590]  Okay.
[03:33.770 --> 03:35.310]  Seems like there's too many letters in there.
[03:35.530 --> 03:35.950]  No, that's fine.
[03:36.070 --> 03:36.410]  That's fine?
[03:36.550 --> 03:36.690]  Okay.
[03:38.510 --> 03:39.590]  Here's another letter.
[03:41.250 --> 03:43.710]  Dear Off the Hook, I'm a long-time listener, magazine subscriber.
[03:43.930 --> 03:50.470]  Listening to and reading your recent election and e-voting stories made me think I should let you know how it works here in Australia.
[03:50.470 --> 04:06.670]  If you're born here and go to school like normal, then when you turn 18, you are automatically added to the local electoral roll and sent a letter to confirm this, outlining your responsibility to vote and also outlining the penalties for not voting.
[04:07.030 --> 04:07.630]  That's right.
[04:07.730 --> 04:08.750]  Penalties for not voting.
[04:09.050 --> 04:10.510]  Good luck having that around here.
[04:10.930 --> 04:15.290]  You then turn up at the local voting booth on Election Day, which is always a Saturday.
[04:15.670 --> 04:16.570]  That's good, too.
[04:16.570 --> 04:20.690]  From 8 until 6 at the local schools, where you walk in through a few...
[04:20.690 --> 04:22.370]  I don't know what this word is.
[04:24.170 --> 04:24.610]  Sprilkers?
[04:24.910 --> 04:28.010]  S-P-R-U-I-L-K-E-R-S?
[04:28.210 --> 04:29.710]  Is that some kind of Australian word?
[04:30.950 --> 04:31.390]  Sprilkers.
[04:31.530 --> 04:31.670]  Okay.
[04:31.750 --> 04:33.370]  You walk in through a few of those.
[04:33.930 --> 04:35.030]  They're people, apparently.
[04:35.030 --> 04:41.310]  They're handing out how-to-vote cards for different parties, and they mosey on over to a desk.
[04:41.310 --> 04:45.390]  If you get there at the right time, there is no queue, which means line in Australian.
[04:45.890 --> 04:48.850]  And they never ask your name and address.
[04:48.850 --> 04:50.870]  They ask if you have voted already today.
[04:51.430 --> 04:52.870]  They never ask for any ID.
[04:53.150 --> 04:55.670]  Then the nice volunteer crosses your name out and hands you the voting papers.
[04:55.670 --> 04:59.730]  Two papers are handed out, a large white one in our last election.
[04:59.730 --> 05:05.750]  This was 600 millimeters wide, two feet, and a small green one around the size of 2600 magazine.
[05:05.910 --> 05:06.270]  How convenient.
[05:06.590 --> 05:17.110]  You take your papers over to a cardboard booth, really high-tech over there in Australia, and fill them out a little awkwardly with a large one, then fold it up into a square and pop into cardboard boxes.
[05:17.330 --> 05:17.490]  Okay.
[05:19.070 --> 05:22.350]  Obviously, Australia has a very different system than we have.
[05:22.350 --> 05:25.510]  They say it's open to many simple hacks, but it doesn't really happen to any extent.
[05:25.510 --> 05:27.870]  A lot of unfilled papers and invalid votes, though.
[05:28.990 --> 05:30.410]  Thanks, Bredo, for writing in.
[05:31.150 --> 05:32.410]  We got a letter from Sweden.
[05:32.610 --> 05:36.170]  I'm listening to you people wondering what happens with the envelopes with votes and things.
[05:36.430 --> 05:38.230]  I don't know how anything works in the U.S.
[05:38.270 --> 05:39.210]  We don't either, believe me.
[05:39.290 --> 05:40.510]  It's a miracle how anything works.
[05:40.690 --> 05:44.130]  But it sounds like it works very much like when you vote in advance here in Sweden.
[05:44.330 --> 05:47.250]  And I know everything about that, so I can tell you how it might work.
[05:47.570 --> 05:51.310]  This is probably completely useless information, but I don't have anything better to do.
[05:51.310 --> 05:52.830]  These are usually our best letters.
[05:53.350 --> 06:02.670]  In Sweden, everyone old enough to vote gets a piece of paper in the mail which contains their name and a bunch of numbers that mean nothing to them but are important behind the scenes.
[06:02.830 --> 06:10.990]  Then, if you want to vote but can't or won't do it on the actual voting day, you take a piece of paper with a party name on it and put it in a secret envelope.
[06:11.190 --> 06:17.110]  The secret envelope is placed in a windowed envelope together with the aforementioned piece of paper with important numbers on them.
[06:17.110 --> 06:24.130]  The people behind the scenes look at the numbers and know at what voting location you would have voted if you hadn't voted in advance.
[06:24.310 --> 06:25.810]  The envelope is sent there.
[06:26.230 --> 06:31.750]  On the voting day, human beings receive secret envelopes from people who come in and put them in a box.
[06:31.870 --> 06:39.210]  When the room is empty for a while, the human beings have time to take care of the windowed envelopes they have received with votes in advance.
[06:39.430 --> 06:42.910]  They open the windowed envelope and look at those mysterious numbers.
[06:44.530 --> 06:49.310]  One of those numbers tells them where to find this person in the long list of people who are eligible to vote at this location.
[06:49.370 --> 06:54.430]  If the person is not on the list, it's usually because the windowed envelope was accidentally sent to the wrong location.
[06:54.430 --> 06:59.270]  They are then sent to some central voting base where they correct all kinds of things that could possibly go wrong.
[06:59.450 --> 07:08.270]  If the person is on the list, then the people behind the scenes take the secret envelope, put it in the box with everyone's votes, and mark the person in the list as having voted.
[07:09.390 --> 07:21.030]  Interestingly enough, the votes are at the end of the voting day, counted by hand by these poor people behind the scenes, then sent off to the central location where they are counted again by another poor bunch of people behind the scenes.
[07:21.110 --> 07:21.930]  See, that's what we don't have.
[07:21.990 --> 07:25.510]  We don't have these poor people behind the scenes that are counting and recounting.
[07:25.730 --> 07:33.070]  And actually, if I remember correctly, the votes are also counted by some kind of vote counting machines, but that's more behind the scenes than I am, so I'm not sure.
[07:33.450 --> 07:41.710]  And by the way, to be allowed to vote in Sweden, you must be 18 years old and a Swedish citizen, And you must have lived in Sweden at some point during the course of your life.
[07:41.910 --> 07:44.070]  You get to vote if you're a convicted criminal.
[07:44.230 --> 07:45.690]  You get to vote if you're black.
[07:45.930 --> 07:48.830]  And you even get to vote if you're not voting for the current government.
[07:48.830 --> 07:49.670]  It's awesome.
[07:49.950 --> 07:51.270]  We ought to try that someday.
[07:51.930 --> 07:52.550]  Yes, Jim.
[07:52.850 --> 07:58.090]  Well, actually, that does sound an awful lot like descriptions I've read of the absentee ballot system here in the U.S.
[08:00.190 --> 08:01.130]  Here's another letter.
[08:01.350 --> 08:03.670]  I was listening to your discussion about how voting machines work.
[08:03.850 --> 08:07.710]  I was an election day worker in New York City on 9-11-2001.
[08:08.370 --> 08:11.570]  Remember, that was election day here in New York City, September 11th.
[08:11.590 --> 08:13.170]  Yeah, primary day, and they had to postpone it.
[08:13.610 --> 08:15.850]  The tally mechanism is 100% mechanical.
[08:15.970 --> 08:16.930]  No electricity is needed.
[08:17.230 --> 08:18.890]  The cord is just for the lights.
[08:18.950 --> 08:21.490]  Well, I saw two cords, so there's another cord there for something else.
[08:22.050 --> 08:24.030]  The colored lights are used in primaries.
[08:24.150 --> 08:28.530]  In New York State, the primary elections are only for people enrolled in a particular party.
[08:28.630 --> 08:31.010]  Maybe that second cord was for the primary lights, which I didn't see.
[08:31.590 --> 08:34.070]  People can only vote for candidates in their enrolled party.
[08:34.090 --> 08:38.190]  When you sign in at the table, they give you a card indicating which party you're in.
[08:38.370 --> 08:41.930]  That card is then handed to the officer sitting next to the right-hand side of the machine.
[08:42.010 --> 08:44.190]  They then move the party lever to your party.
[08:44.570 --> 08:47.510]  The lights on top then indicate which party they selected.
[08:47.710 --> 08:51.370]  That person is also in charge of the officer's control handle.
[08:51.610 --> 08:54.830]  That's a small lever on that same side of the machine near the back.
[08:54.830 --> 09:00.550]  If it's not pressed down, the big red voting lever inside the booth cannot be moved to the voting position.
[09:01.010 --> 09:02.190]  And that's from Dan.
[09:02.330 --> 09:03.270]  Thank you very much for that information.
[09:03.510 --> 09:06.990]  My question is, that little lever in the back, you just touched that?
[09:07.010 --> 09:07.710]  Is it that simple?
[09:07.910 --> 09:11.270]  Can someone simply reach around and vote twice if the other person doesn't notice?
[09:11.590 --> 09:13.390]  I imagine that kind of thing could happen.
[09:13.530 --> 09:14.090]  What do you think, Bernie?
[09:15.410 --> 09:18.170]  I think it could be accidentally bumped or something.
[09:18.930 --> 09:20.430]  The people in the other party.
[09:21.190 --> 09:22.330]  I don't think it's that easy.
[09:22.470 --> 09:29.010]  But I do remember when I was a kid and our elementary school was actually one of the storage locations for these huge voting machines that they had.
[09:29.090 --> 09:30.310]  These big mechanical voting machines.
[09:30.490 --> 09:35.930]  And so every once in a while we would have like school elections for, I don't know, stupid stuff that didn't actually matter.
[09:36.050 --> 09:38.430]  But we would be able to use the mechanical voting machines for that.
[09:38.590 --> 09:39.770]  Which I thought was pretty cool.
[09:40.150 --> 09:46.110]  And they're definitely freestanding and don't require any electricity because they had them in the middle of the gym with no wires or anything like that.
[09:46.230 --> 09:47.370]  But it's pretty cool.
[09:49.190 --> 09:50.150]  Here's another letter.
[09:50.230 --> 09:55.650]  I've been trying to call in the last two shows with this info, but never have been able to get my call picked up during the time the system allows the phone to ring.
[09:55.750 --> 09:56.690]  We apologize for that.
[09:56.790 --> 10:00.910]  We know a lot of people try to reach us and they can't get through because Verizon cuts you off.
[10:01.010 --> 10:01.850]  Somebody cuts you off.
[10:01.930 --> 10:03.230]  I'm not sure which phone company actually does it.
[10:03.630 --> 10:04.990]  It might be a long-distance company.
[10:05.130 --> 10:08.270]  They cut off after 10 rings maybe and that's not enough.
[10:08.810 --> 10:09.930]  You just got to keep trying.
[10:10.230 --> 10:10.890]  Perseverance wins.
[10:11.130 --> 10:17.510]  Anyway, I'm one of your shortwave listeners via WBCQ and I've heard about this on Radio Netherlands via shortwave a few weeks ago.
[10:17.650 --> 10:26.210]  The Dutch have had to pull a specific type of voting machine out of service because it was discovered that these machines emitted an RF signal that varied with the vote cast.
[10:26.570 --> 10:28.090]  So they were no longer secure.
[10:29.430 --> 10:33.190]  That's fascinating that you could actually see what somebody voted by reading that.
[10:33.190 --> 10:37.350]  You can reconstruct the image on a CRT based on the RF emitted by them as well.
[10:37.510 --> 10:38.230]  So it's the same concept.
[10:38.410 --> 10:40.730]  And thank you, Will, from St. Louis for writing in with that.
[10:40.970 --> 10:45.070]  But basically, okay, these Debald machines, they have CRTs, correct?
[10:45.970 --> 10:47.590]  They probably have LCD panels.
[10:47.670 --> 10:48.990]  You think they have all LCD panels?
[10:49.230 --> 10:49.910]  I would guess.
[10:50.030 --> 10:50.170]  Okay.
[10:50.230 --> 10:51.870]  Well, you've used electronic voting machines.
[10:51.870 --> 10:53.070]  I don't know if it was Debald or not.
[10:53.510 --> 10:54.910]  I really couldn't find a company.
[10:55.210 --> 10:56.650]  But the screen was an LCD screen?
[10:56.650 --> 10:56.970]  No, no, no.
[10:56.970 --> 10:59.230]  The screen was actually just paper.
[10:59.230 --> 11:02.970]  And then there were, like, little membrane carbon contact buttons behind them.
[11:03.870 --> 11:04.310]  Okay.
[11:04.510 --> 11:05.350]  So you would push that.
[11:05.350 --> 11:09.070]  And then you would get a little, like, faint green X.
[11:09.130 --> 11:12.910]  And then at the bottom, there was an LCD screen that showed who you voted for.
[11:13.850 --> 11:14.290]  Fascinating.
[11:15.370 --> 11:16.170]  Let's see.
[11:16.730 --> 11:17.870]  Here's one more letter.
[11:17.930 --> 11:20.670]  And this one is very interesting.
[11:21.130 --> 11:22.830]  This is the first time I voted electronically.
[11:22.830 --> 11:24.590]  It went as well as I predicted.
[11:24.590 --> 11:25.570]  And that's in quotes.
[11:26.650 --> 11:31.590]  One was to sign the registered voter logbook, which turned out to be the only bit of paper in the place.
[11:31.870 --> 11:47.610]  Once approved, the woman at the second station punched some numbers on the small keyboard of a handheld device the size of a pocket calculator, squinted at the tiny display, poked the membrane keys again, and eventually satisfied, she pulled out and handed me a smart card.
[11:48.290 --> 11:55.970]  Lined up in the middle of the room with no curtains or other effective means of privacy were what looked like three plastic TV trays on tripods.
[11:55.970 --> 11:58.850]  Certainly not the substantial voting machines I expected.
[11:59.050 --> 12:08.490]  I went to the one not in use and feeling like a future loser on Jeopardy, facing not Alex, but six scowling election workers and a constable.
[12:08.670 --> 12:21.290]  I studied the Diebold's typing paper size color touch screen and the little drawing showing how to insert the smart card with its postage stamp size pattern of gold contacts a bit left of center on its face.
[12:21.570 --> 12:26.970]  Twice I inserted the card, oriented as directed, and twice the machine beeped, clunked, and ejected it.
[12:27.050 --> 12:30.150]  I looked up at the panel of inquisitors and shrugged.
[12:30.150 --> 12:34.870]  One came over, tried the card with the same result, and told me to use the next machine.
[12:35.150 --> 12:46.570]  While this second voting computer was accepting my card and displaying the ballot instructions, the election worker gave up on the previous machine and closed its dark gray eight inch plastic side doors over the display.
[12:46.930 --> 12:47.870]  It was dead.
[12:48.130 --> 12:53.690]  On my working machine, the touch screen was easy to read, sensitive to touch, and responded instantly.
[12:54.130 --> 12:58.910]  At the bottom of the display were touch screen buttons for instructions, back, and next.
[12:59.650 --> 13:05.470]  Nowhere near as intuitive and convenient as the previous large paper ballots one could read and work in any order, but adequate.
[13:05.750 --> 13:17.350]  When I finished the ballot screen, toggling my selections on and off a couple of times to see how things worked, and pushed next, the machine presented a summary for me to study and confirm, or to go back to make changes.
[13:17.490 --> 13:26.690]  By this time, I had noticed the third of three LEDs on the left edge of the machine lit when I poked anything on the screen and went out approximately 10 seconds later.
[13:27.370 --> 13:29.490]  I assumed the election workers could see it too.
[13:29.670 --> 13:29.870]  Great.
[13:30.030 --> 13:30.610]  More pressure.
[13:31.290 --> 13:39.030]  This didn't help me figure out the unclear confirmation screen, which looked almost identical to the ballot, but it seemed there were some races with no candidate checked.
[13:39.090 --> 13:44.450]  I touched a blank voting box, and the machine immediately flipped back to the original ballot display.
[13:45.150 --> 13:45.690]  All right.
[13:45.690 --> 13:58.550]  I admitted I was getting nervous and impatient, so I looked that screen over, toggled one vote to make sure it still worked, then pushed next, and ignored the verification screen by immediately touching the new submit vote button at the bottom of the display.
[13:58.710 --> 14:05.090]  The screen assured me that my vote had been counted, but I didn't read it all because the smart card popped out at the same time.
[14:05.310 --> 14:05.750]  Hooray.
[14:05.950 --> 14:06.810]  Free at last.
[14:06.950 --> 14:14.650]  I turned in the card and left, glad it was over, hoping my vote had actually been recorded, and wondering what happened to the votes on the machine that failed.
[14:14.830 --> 14:19.210]  There was no way to know with that printed receipt that I could take or even see through a little window.
[14:19.550 --> 14:24.950]  I doubt there is a secret one kept internally either because I heard nothing and the machines were too thin to enclose a roll of paper.
[14:25.270 --> 14:26.610]  So my conclusion is this.
[14:26.730 --> 14:29.070]  Bring back the optically scanned paper ballots.
[14:29.310 --> 14:32.890]  On those, everything was there to study at leisure inside a curtain booth.
[14:33.050 --> 14:39.930]  They don't break down, leaving a crowd pressuring those at the two remaining machines and provided an original to recount.
[14:40.150 --> 14:48.110]  I also suspect that electronic voting will make most people uncomfortable enough to vote the straight ticket rather than take the time and trouble to select individuals.
[14:48.370 --> 14:53.070]  If so, this benefits the parties and not us." Thank you, Bob, for that letter.
[14:53.270 --> 14:53.730]  It really...
[14:53.730 --> 14:59.290]  Now, it's funny because he's more comfortable with the ballots that you mark on paper and then have scanned.
[14:59.430 --> 15:01.570]  But you saw Hacking Democracy, right?
[15:01.750 --> 15:07.090]  And that was the specific machine that Diebold manufactures that they were able to hack.
[15:07.270 --> 15:10.190]  They were able to make it look as if, you know, the other party had won.
[15:10.390 --> 15:16.330]  Yeah, you know, I'm beginning to think just regular paper ballots might be the way to go.
[15:17.950 --> 15:18.970]  Go ahead, Bernie, first.
[15:19.450 --> 15:29.850]  It's worth noting that Bob, that listener who wrote in that detailed description of his voting experience, he is an engineer who designs and builds computers and has done so for decades.
[15:30.230 --> 15:33.930]  And he was far more comfortable with the paper ballots.
[15:35.810 --> 15:45.910]  Why can't they just make the mechanical machines also count your vote electronically so you have, you get a paper and it's also counted by some mainframe at every voting facility?
[15:46.530 --> 15:50.070]  Yeah, I don't understand the logic behind not having redundancy.
[15:51.010 --> 15:54.770]  Unless the reason is that invariably you will have problems.
[15:54.770 --> 16:02.350]  You will have counts that don't match up and that's going to simply make the electronic voting not as appealing to the people who buy that.
[16:02.350 --> 16:05.330]  The thing is you have to convince the people that a recount is actually necessary.
[16:05.330 --> 16:15.710]  And I think that's probably the hardest part, especially when, you know, you have computers that are spitting out definitive answers and having a recount would delay the results by, you know, a number of days and really piss a lot of people off.
[16:15.710 --> 16:29.530]  I think at the very least, every single election we have, whether it's in a school for a school election or for the president of the United States, at least for the first decade or so of playing with these electronic voting machines, we count every election twice using two different methods.
[16:29.750 --> 16:32.230]  And they don't add up exactly to the vote.
[16:32.350 --> 16:33.670]  We find out why.
[16:33.830 --> 16:36.110]  And we keep going until we get it right.
[16:36.310 --> 16:37.610]  And we keep monitoring it.
[16:37.690 --> 16:37.950]  Yes, Jim.
[16:38.170 --> 16:48.490]  Well, first of all, I think that this letter indicates that the next advance in understanding voting machines would be if somebody actually took a little hidden camera in so we could see what these screens look like.
[16:48.550 --> 16:54.010]  So we could see the difficulties, so we could see the screen go blank when the smart card pops up and things like that.
[16:54.370 --> 16:58.350]  And you would think that at this point, we've now exhausted everything about voting machines.
[16:58.350 --> 17:06.350]  But no, there's another opportunity for New Yorkers and people within the sound of my voice who can get to New York to see voting machines.
[17:06.350 --> 17:11.750]  The Board of Elections, this Friday, is going to have a public demonstration.
[17:12.750 --> 17:14.230]  First of all, I'm going to give you the address.
[17:14.390 --> 17:21.950]  It's going to be at Hostos Community College in the Bronx in what's called the Savoy Multipurpose Room.
[17:22.190 --> 17:23.810]  Savoy is S-A-V-O-Y.
[17:23.810 --> 17:24.810]  Multi-purpose room.
[17:24.990 --> 17:26.570]  Obviously can be used for many purposes.
[17:26.910 --> 17:30.870]  It's located at 120 Walton Avenue in the Bronx.
[17:31.470 --> 17:36.610]  There's a phone number for directions, I presume, 718-518-4444.
[17:37.830 --> 17:42.410]  Four manufacturers are going to demonstrate about 10 machines.
[17:42.410 --> 17:47.710]  They're each given an hour, half hour for the demonstration and half hour for questions and comments.
[17:48.030 --> 17:52.970]  And there's going to be a machine in the atrium available for public trial.
[17:53.210 --> 17:54.990]  The other machine will be in the auditorium.
[17:55.130 --> 17:57.990]  Is that a half hour of questions and comments for each machine?
[17:58.330 --> 18:05.910]  Half hour of demonstration followed by, I figure, a half hour because this is running this Friday between 5 and 10 p.m.
[18:06.370 --> 18:10.590]  at 120 Walton Avenue, Hostos Community College, Savoy Multipurpose Room.
[18:10.590 --> 18:14.650]  Hey, you know, that was a good hour, especially for people like us, between 5 and 10 p.m.
[18:14.690 --> 18:15.410]  on a Friday night.
[18:15.510 --> 18:18.150]  I was thinking this could be a fun field trip for us.
[18:18.210 --> 18:19.250]  It certainly could be.
[18:19.510 --> 18:20.930]  Now, do we get to actually play with these machines?
[18:20.930 --> 18:25.410]  We get to play with the machine in the atrium, not the auditorium.
[18:25.450 --> 18:26.850]  The auditorium is going to be up on stage.
[18:27.050 --> 18:29.410]  There are going to be manufacturers, representatives there.
[18:29.670 --> 18:33.070]  Each vendor will have a half hour presentation followed by questions and answers.
[18:33.330 --> 18:33.510]  All right.
[18:33.550 --> 18:34.210]  This sounds like fun.
[18:34.330 --> 18:36.530]  Now, give us... tell us how to get there by mass transit.
[18:36.650 --> 18:37.390]  I don't know offhand.
[18:37.850 --> 18:39.370]  You used to work for the MTA.
[18:39.750 --> 18:41.090]  Isn't that ingrained in your head?
[18:41.250 --> 18:41.690]  Well, no.
[18:41.930 --> 18:42.690]  Hopstop.com.
[18:43.890 --> 18:44.530]  Hopstop.com.
[18:44.530 --> 18:45.750]  Or MTA.info.
[18:45.770 --> 18:46.410]  What's the address?
[18:46.510 --> 18:46.890]  Give us the address.
[18:46.890 --> 18:50.070]  Once again, it's 120 Walton Avenue in the Bronx.
[18:51.210 --> 18:54.970]  This is Hostos Community College, H-O-S-T-O-S.
[18:55.190 --> 18:57.550]  The Savoy Multipurpose Room.
[18:58.530 --> 19:06.750]  What's going to be shown is the Avanti Vote Tracker EVC-308FF, which is a touchscreen DRE, whatever that is.
[19:07.410 --> 19:10.950]  The ES&S Model 100 Optical Scan.
[19:11.170 --> 19:14.610]  And the ES&S AutoMark, which is a ballot marking device.
[19:15.370 --> 19:17.610]  The Debold AccuVote OS.
[19:17.750 --> 19:18.490]  Oh, I'm so there.
[19:18.730 --> 19:19.570]  Which is an...
[19:19.570 --> 19:21.370]  Someone from Debold is going to be there.
[19:21.450 --> 19:22.350]  And the machine's going to be there.
[19:22.390 --> 19:23.730]  And we're going to get to touch the machine.
[19:24.470 --> 19:25.090]  Oh, this is great.
[19:25.270 --> 19:28.150]  And the AutoMark VAT, which is a ballot marking device.
[19:29.290 --> 19:33.350]  Sequoia is going to have the AVC Advantage Plus touchscreen DRE.
[19:33.670 --> 19:37.010]  And the Sequoia Optech Insight, which is an optical stand.
[19:37.570 --> 19:44.350]  And after this, on November 21st, which is a Tuesday, I believe.
[19:44.430 --> 19:44.810]  Next Tuesday.
[19:45.370 --> 19:49.950]  At 4 p.m., the Board of Ed will have open public hearings at 4 p.m.
[19:50.110 --> 19:50.830]  In the same place?
[19:50.970 --> 19:51.730]  No, no, no.
[19:51.890 --> 19:55.330]  At their offices at 42 Broadway, 6th floor.
[19:56.170 --> 20:01.990]  The Board of Ed gives a number for questions about this whole event, which, thank God, is toll-free.
[20:04.310 --> 20:08.090]  866-868-3692.
[20:08.470 --> 20:12.790]  That's 866-868-3692.
[20:13.090 --> 20:20.210]  Once again, this is going to be Hostos Community College this Friday, two days from today, November 17th, 5 p.m.
[20:20.310 --> 20:21.470]  on until 10 p.m.
[20:22.050 --> 20:26.570]  The Savoy Multipurpose Room, 120 Walton Avenue, the Bronx.
[20:27.570 --> 20:28.110]  All right.
[20:28.610 --> 20:29.770]  We hope to see you there.
[20:29.850 --> 20:30.010]  Yeah.
[20:30.090 --> 20:32.910]  A lot of off-the-hook listeners, I think, should show up to this.
[20:33.070 --> 20:34.970]  And that's two days of fun activities.
[20:35.150 --> 20:40.450]  We could try to make this part of the HOPE Conference, which actually concludes tomorrow night with the Steve Rambam talk.
[20:40.450 --> 20:41.590]  This could be a HOPE field trip.
[20:41.610 --> 20:42.670]  It could be a HOPE field trip.
[20:42.670 --> 20:47.450]  And hopefully we can get a lot of people at the talk tomorrow night to come by that as well.
[20:47.650 --> 20:47.890]  All right.
[20:47.950 --> 20:58.410]  We're going to have Steve Rambam on in just a couple of minutes talking about what he's going to be doing tomorrow night as well as answering listener questions about privacy and all sorts of other scary things.
[20:58.570 --> 21:01.610]  And Jim, remember to mention this one more time before we go off the air.
[21:01.670 --> 21:01.870]  Okay.
[21:01.970 --> 21:02.650]  I've got another copy.
[21:02.770 --> 21:03.010]  All right.
[21:03.070 --> 21:03.210]  Good.
[21:04.030 --> 21:05.490]  We also got a lot of mail.
[21:05.490 --> 21:08.490]  I'm just going to read a couple of pieces here from something we did last week.
[21:08.550 --> 21:11.450]  You guys remember we played a little joke.
[21:13.710 --> 21:20.250]  We played an excerpt from a 9-11 conspiracy film, except it wasn't really an excerpt from the 9-11 conspiracy film.
[21:20.370 --> 21:23.390]  It was something that billed itself as loose change.
[21:23.550 --> 21:24.930]  It sounded exactly like loose change.
[21:25.030 --> 21:34.010]  But, you know, you really should have known when the conclusions were that the United States government is actually Israel and that the World Trade Center was attacked by horses, that that was sort of a joke.
[21:34.110 --> 21:41.950]  But, you know, the reaction we got from some people shows either not really a sense of humor or profound naivete...
[21:42.570 --> 21:43.430]  How do you say that word?
[21:44.370 --> 21:44.650]  Naivete...
[21:44.650 --> 21:46.230]  I can't say the word, but you know what I mean.
[21:46.670 --> 21:46.950]  Naiveness.
[21:47.270 --> 21:47.550]  Naivete.
[21:47.950 --> 21:48.230]  Naivete.
[21:48.310 --> 21:49.290]  For some reason, I can't say it.
[21:49.290 --> 21:50.570]  But, no, you're supposed to say naivete.
[21:50.750 --> 21:51.890]  I think that's how you're supposed to say it.
[21:51.970 --> 21:54.070]  But you had to expect this because it happens every time.
[21:54.370 --> 21:54.630]  Yeah.
[21:54.770 --> 21:57.810]  You know, I expected more of the first type of response and less of the second.
[21:57.910 --> 21:59.750]  But, anyway, listen to part of the first response.
[21:59.870 --> 22:02.710]  I'm only going to read the part before it gets into all caps.
[22:04.590 --> 22:09.630]  I was disgusted with your promotion of 9-11 truth disinfo on your pathetic show this evening.
[22:09.750 --> 22:10.830]  What planet do you live on?
[22:10.970 --> 22:14.690]  How dare you trivialize the attempts of getting to the truth?
[22:15.150 --> 22:16.570]  Well, you know, it's called humor.
[22:16.570 --> 22:22.730]  And if you can't show a sense of humor in anything you're involved in, I have to question what you're involved in in the first place.
[22:22.970 --> 22:27.730]  Anyway, perhaps you are surrounded by people who are afraid to follow it to its ultimate conclusion.
[22:28.070 --> 22:32.350]  Better to dismiss it and attempt to discredit it without actually investigating it for yourself.
[22:32.750 --> 22:35.450]  Did you even read my mail that I sent you before in all caps?
[22:35.610 --> 22:36.090]  No, you know.
[22:38.090 --> 22:40.030]  All the caps tend to turn us off.
[22:40.130 --> 22:41.650]  But thanks, Matt, for sending that in.
[22:43.150 --> 22:48.430]  Yeah, you know, people assume that we haven't thought this through, that we've reached conclusions.
[22:48.530 --> 22:53.630]  All we're doing is having a little fun, humor, injecting humor into anything.
[22:53.950 --> 22:56.150]  And I think you can do that these days.
[22:56.150 --> 22:57.170]  You're still allowed to, right?
[22:57.250 --> 23:00.090]  I like to think that we poke holes in the poking of holes.
[23:00.290 --> 23:01.230]  We poke holes in everything.
[23:01.510 --> 23:01.710]  Right.
[23:01.710 --> 23:03.790]  And, you know, a lot of people that...
[23:03.790 --> 23:05.870]  I mean, I encourage people to ask all kinds of questions.
[23:06.130 --> 23:13.950]  But the thing that bothers me with a lot of the 9-11 conspiracy people, they accuse you of being closed-minded if you don't reach the same conclusions as they do.
[23:14.070 --> 23:20.430]  And to me, that seems like it's being very closed-minded, assuming that somebody hasn't already thought it through and reached different conclusions.
[23:20.770 --> 23:22.110]  No, you have to be part of a conspiracy.
[23:22.330 --> 23:23.210]  You have to be part of the government.
[23:23.370 --> 23:24.450]  It doesn't work that way.
[23:25.410 --> 23:27.230]  And then we got these kinds of responses.
[23:27.390 --> 23:30.490]  I'd also like to add to my earlier mail.
[23:30.590 --> 23:31.570]  This person wrote two letters, actually.
[23:31.670 --> 23:32.290]  I'm only reading one.
[23:32.550 --> 23:38.490]  And say that I've seen the Loose Chains second edition, and I didn't recognize any of the quotes that you aired.
[23:38.910 --> 23:43.330]  Although, I will agree, they all sounded rather ridiculous.
[23:43.830 --> 23:48.210]  And if this is from the first version of the movie, I'd say the second edition is much more clear and believable.
[23:49.790 --> 23:50.670]  And that's from Grant.
[23:50.830 --> 23:53.610]  Thank you, Grant, for opening up our eyes on that one.
[23:53.670 --> 23:54.650]  And that wasn't the only letter.
[23:54.930 --> 24:00.370]  I heard you play a clip from your version of Loose Chains last night on your show, but did not recognize it at all.
[24:00.490 --> 24:03.870]  I have Loose Chains second edition, and I'm extremely familiar with the narration.
[24:04.070 --> 24:09.330]  The version you have may leave all these questions open-ended because you have an older version.
[24:10.450 --> 24:11.570]  Or a decoy.
[24:11.690 --> 24:12.710]  Okay, yes, you got it.
[24:12.730 --> 24:13.210]  It was a decoy.
[24:13.290 --> 24:14.910]  We even said it was a decoy, for God's sake.
[24:15.410 --> 24:20.250]  Is it also possible you played a clip from another expose and incorrectly identified it as Loose Chains 9-11?
[24:20.310 --> 24:21.530]  It's parody, folks, parody.
[24:22.570 --> 24:23.750]  But thanks for that letter.
[24:23.870 --> 24:26.390]  And if you want to hear the parody, it's hidden on the webpage.
[24:26.390 --> 24:27.090]  Not really hidden.
[24:27.210 --> 24:30.430]  There's, I think, four podcasts on there from Will Franken.
[24:30.630 --> 24:34.690]  So go to www.willfranken, will with two L's, dot com.
[24:34.950 --> 24:37.990]  And yeah, a lot of it's politically incorrect, but so what?
[24:38.150 --> 24:41.150]  It's funny, and we can laugh at all sorts of different things.
[24:41.150 --> 24:49.290]  Okay, as we mentioned, the HOPE Conference officially comes to an end tomorrow night with the rescheduling of the Steve Rambam talk.
[24:51.110 --> 24:51.870]  Privacy is dead.
[24:52.050 --> 24:52.510]  Get over it.
[24:52.590 --> 24:54.070]  Is that the official long name?
[24:54.970 --> 24:57.410]  Steve, you're joining us on the phone tonight, right?
[24:57.990 --> 24:58.610]  Hi, Eric.
[24:58.610 --> 24:59.010]  How are you?
[24:59.130 --> 24:59.270]  Good.
[24:59.290 --> 24:59.610]  How are you?
[24:59.830 --> 25:01.230]  Now, I understand that...
[25:01.230 --> 25:04.150]  By the way, just for the record, it's Rambam.
[25:04.150 --> 25:04.710]  I'm a bomb.
[25:05.790 --> 25:06.190]  Okay.
[25:06.910 --> 25:07.710]  Not Rambam.
[25:07.830 --> 25:11.770]  I've been meaning to ask you that, because you spell it two different ways.
[25:11.770 --> 25:13.870]  You spell it with A's, and you spell it with O's.
[25:13.950 --> 25:15.630]  So you prefer it to be pronounced with the O's?
[25:15.710 --> 25:16.710]  I spell it two different ways.
[25:16.830 --> 25:18.710]  The FBI spells it two different ways.
[25:19.830 --> 25:21.270]  Yeah, all these AKAs.
[25:21.350 --> 25:22.350]  In fact, I got...
[25:22.810 --> 25:24.310]  That's the best they could...
[25:24.310 --> 25:39.310]  I think they wanted to make me seem like a sinister fellow with an alias, and they couldn't come up with a nickname for me like Vinnie the Hook, so the best they could do is Rambam, also known as Rambam.
[25:41.070 --> 25:41.430]  Okay.
[25:41.510 --> 25:43.650]  Well, if you want, we can come up with a name like that if you're...
[25:43.650 --> 25:44.390]  I'm sorry?
[25:44.490 --> 25:47.250]  If you need a nickname, we can easily come up with something like that.
[25:47.450 --> 25:48.490]  We'll work on it.
[25:48.690 --> 25:49.010]  Okay.
[25:49.330 --> 25:50.590]  So now tell us...
[25:50.590 --> 25:52.310]  You're going to be giving the talk tomorrow night.
[25:52.490 --> 25:58.010]  I guess let's first give out the location information for those people that might turn off the radio in the next two minutes.
[25:58.490 --> 26:01.490]  It's tomorrow night between 6 and 9 p.m.
[26:01.650 --> 26:07.570]  at the Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, New Jersey, the Babbia Center Room 122.
[26:07.710 --> 26:11.890]  Now, for those of you in New York that might be panicking, thinking that that's really far away, it's not.
[26:11.990 --> 26:13.510]  It's as close as anything in the city.
[26:13.910 --> 26:14.850]  Hop on the path train.
[26:14.910 --> 26:16.170]  Get on a path train to Hoboken.
[26:16.170 --> 26:17.050]  It's the first stop.
[26:17.410 --> 26:18.570]  And you simply...
[26:18.570 --> 26:18.950]  What, Arsene?
[26:19.010 --> 26:20.630]  You make a right turn and walk down the street?
[26:20.990 --> 26:22.370]  You don't even have to make a right turn.
[26:22.470 --> 26:23.550]  You just kind of go straight.
[26:23.990 --> 26:24.330]  Okay.
[26:24.470 --> 26:25.310]  Follow the Hudson North.
[26:25.690 --> 26:26.490]  Follow the Hudson...
[26:26.490 --> 26:28.670]  Just walk along the Hudson River and it's that easy.
[26:29.010 --> 26:31.750]  And we'll have people there guiding you to make sure you get to the right place.
[26:31.750 --> 26:34.510]  But it's almost impossible to not get there.
[26:34.630 --> 26:35.990]  What time is this tomorrow?
[26:36.130 --> 26:36.730]  Between 6 and 9.
[26:36.790 --> 26:36.950]  Ah.
[26:37.190 --> 26:37.450]  Yes.
[26:37.910 --> 26:42.810]  And I believe we're going to be starting around 6, 6.30 and going...
[26:42.810 --> 26:44.390]  taking questions and things like that.
[26:44.450 --> 26:44.910]  Is that right, Steve?
[26:45.750 --> 26:46.110]  Correct.
[26:46.110 --> 26:50.870]  And I will add, I've done a quick reconnaissance of the location.
[26:51.050 --> 26:56.430]  And it's actually easier to get to from Manhattan than it is to get to Brooklyn from Manhattan.
[26:56.910 --> 26:57.590]  Yeah, that's true.
[26:57.590 --> 26:58.570]  And cheaper, too.
[26:58.730 --> 27:01.790]  It only costs $1.50 by path train as opposed to $2 to get to Brooklyn.
[27:01.870 --> 27:03.190]  Well, take the ferry.
[27:03.310 --> 27:04.050]  I took the ferry.
[27:04.190 --> 27:05.210]  It was a lot more fun.
[27:05.470 --> 27:06.550]  Where do you catch the ferry?
[27:07.630 --> 27:08.770]  By the Intrepid.
[27:08.770 --> 27:16.730]  Okay, so if you see the military ship mired in the mud there, hop on a ferry, and you'll be in Hoboken in no time.
[27:17.250 --> 27:19.310]  Hopefully not a metaphor for the convention.
[27:19.770 --> 27:24.750]  Now, Steve, you were scheduled to give a talk at the Hope Conference.
[27:24.770 --> 27:25.850]  We've all heard about this.
[27:25.990 --> 27:30.710]  You were picked up by federal authorities mere moments before you were supposed to give this talk.
[27:31.130 --> 27:41.090]  And your name has been cleared, and we're going to give the talk anyway, free of charge, because we believe in dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's and doing what we say we're going to do.
[27:41.170 --> 27:44.430]  So I really want to hand it to you for actually sticking through on all this.
[27:45.510 --> 27:48.610]  Well, let me expand on what you just said.
[27:48.770 --> 28:06.870]  First of all, not only was my name cleared, but I was told earlier this week that the prosecutor that authorized my arrest has been given the Department of Justice equivalent treatment sort of along the lines of being transferred to Siberia.
[28:06.870 --> 28:14.730]  She was removed from the case and is now in places or points unknown.
[28:14.730 --> 28:17.550]  She's disappeared off the face of the earth.
[28:17.850 --> 28:19.170]  And you had nothing to do with that, right?
[28:19.950 --> 28:20.470]  No.
[28:20.850 --> 28:21.350]  All right.
[28:21.970 --> 28:26.990]  It makes it a little harder to serve my lawsuit on her, but no, I didn't.
[28:27.250 --> 28:29.350]  Well, if anybody should be able to find her, it's you.
[28:30.450 --> 28:31.950]  I would hope so.
[28:31.950 --> 28:37.870]  Now, in addition, Steve, you're going to be giving out the information on your victim, right?
[28:38.750 --> 28:39.350]  Correct.
[28:39.950 --> 28:49.130]  Rick Dakin, who is a pretty brave fellow, he is an author and a journalist.
[28:49.230 --> 28:55.430]  He's, in fact, currently writing a phenomenal book on the hacker community.
[28:56.790 --> 29:04.210]  He contacted me before the original convention date and volunteered to let me invade his privacy.
[29:04.910 --> 29:15.190]  And he signed what has to be the most remarkably foolhardy legal release you've ever seen in your life.
[29:15.330 --> 29:16.890]  In fact, it's such an amazing release.
[29:16.890 --> 29:20.350]  We're going to put it up on the screen during the presentation tomorrow.
[29:22.190 --> 29:30.410]  Because he was so cooperative, we were able to do an in-depth and comprehensive investigation on him.
[29:30.470 --> 29:36.170]  And we came up in four and a half hours of work with close to 900 pages of information.
[29:36.170 --> 29:41.890]  And what we've done is we've put this together in a keynote presentation that's going to...
[29:41.890 --> 29:44.550]  We're going to walk you through it rather quickly on the screen.
[29:45.110 --> 29:57.030]  And I think it's going to demonstrate to everybody in a very understandable and very dramatic way just how much information there is out there on the average person.
[29:57.030 --> 30:15.590]  Not just where you live and where you work and where you shop, but how you vote and what your religion is and what your political orientation is and what type of books you like to read and everything that that implies and what movies you watch and what music you listen to.
[30:15.590 --> 30:33.310]  And if you use... if you download podcasts, well, then what radio shows you listen to and who your friends are and what restaurants you eat in and what brand of coffee you like to drink and so on and so forth.
[30:34.030 --> 30:35.890]  Truly remarkable things.
[30:36.090 --> 30:49.910]  And I've got to say, besides Rick being an incredibly brave and cooperative fellow, he was the perfect subject because this is somebody who spent a lot of his time online.
[30:49.950 --> 30:51.690]  He's got a blog.
[30:51.690 --> 30:55.070]  He's got a presence on the net.
[30:55.230 --> 31:02.150]  And we were able to use that and expand outwards to find out pretty much everything there is to know about the guy.
[31:02.510 --> 31:04.290]  Well, that's incredible.
[31:04.330 --> 31:05.890]  And you did this in four and a half hours.
[31:05.890 --> 31:09.550]  Imagine what somebody could do if they really devoted a lot of time to this.
[31:09.550 --> 31:10.230]  Right.
[31:10.350 --> 31:17.470]  And we didn't do all of the basic, you know, investigations 101 type things.
[31:17.630 --> 31:21.810]  We didn't do a trash run on his house and steal his garbage.
[31:22.110 --> 31:24.070]  We didn't put him under surveillance.
[31:24.070 --> 31:32.450]  We didn't... we didn't actually pick up the phone or visit any of his friends in person and say, tell us about this guy.
[31:32.950 --> 31:36.170]  This is the information that's going to be shown tomorrow.
[31:36.170 --> 31:51.450]  And the picture of Rick that's going to be painted tomorrow was compiled only online, sitting in front of a terminal, doing nothing other than working with a keyboard.
[31:51.610 --> 31:57.090]  No telephone, no field work, no monkey business, nothing illegal, by the way.
[31:57.250 --> 31:59.250]  We didn't get his credit card bills.
[31:59.250 --> 32:00.990]  We didn't get his phone bills.
[32:01.690 --> 32:02.530]  None of that.
[32:02.990 --> 32:12.710]  This is the sort of thing that probably 75% of the people attending tomorrow will know how to do themselves once it's pointed out to them.
[32:12.870 --> 32:16.650]  So it'll be a pretty sobering look at our privacy in this day and age.
[32:17.030 --> 32:20.130]  Not Kevin has stopped in, and I believe you have a question for Steve?
[32:20.450 --> 32:20.770]  Yeah.
[32:21.070 --> 32:27.290]  Now, the methods that you use to obtain this information, could anyone do this, or did you have to have a special license or know-how?
[32:27.290 --> 32:40.250]  Well, I'd say about 75% of the information that we gathered is completely open source, available to anybody with an Internet connection.
[32:40.450 --> 32:50.610]  There is about 25% of the stuff that you do have to have access to closed databases, proprietary databases.
[32:50.830 --> 32:54.550]  But mind you, these aren't governmental databases.
[32:55.130 --> 33:06.950]  These are databases like ChoicePoint or what have you that any Nigerian fraudster with a phony driver's license has typically been able to get access to.
[33:08.430 --> 33:08.930]  Amazing.
[33:09.030 --> 33:15.250]  Now, if you did have access to the government databases, let's say you were some insane person who worked in Homeland Security and you were able to...
[33:15.250 --> 33:20.650]  or somebody in law enforcement that had a vendetta against somebody else, what kind of information are we talking about then?
[33:20.650 --> 33:24.870]  Well, we're actually going to talk about that in great detail tomorrow.
[33:27.770 --> 33:33.910]  The entire landscape of data retrieval and data access changed after 9-11.
[33:34.110 --> 33:52.930]  And what you've got going on now is the government hiring private business to compile intelligence and investigative databases for them, shielding those databases from the public from things like FOIA requests, Freedom of Information Act requests by saying,
[33:53.130 --> 34:02.370]  well, it's not our files, it's a private business's files, and then turning around and using that data to investigate private citizens.
[34:02.850 --> 34:13.250]  So it's no longer a wide separation between government databases and private databases.
[34:13.250 --> 34:16.710]  It sounds like a rather sneaky way for them to get what they want.
[34:17.030 --> 34:18.370]  Well, it's incredibly sneaky.
[34:18.530 --> 34:25.470]  And I will tell you that, you know, there's what I call Rambam's Law of Unintended Data Use.
[34:26.030 --> 34:45.110]  One of the things we're going to be talking about tomorrow is how data that was compiled for one specific, relatively benign purpose again and again and again and again, especially since 9-11, has been taken and used for unintended purposes.
[34:45.470 --> 34:51.450]  And not always purposes that make me or you comfortable.
[34:53.470 --> 34:59.870]  It can be anything from governmental databases falling into the hands of private marketers.
[34:59.870 --> 35:01.230]  I'll give you one example.
[35:02.230 --> 35:04.490]  I assume you've heard of Secure Flight.
[35:05.690 --> 35:07.670]  I've heard that kind of name thrown around.
[35:07.830 --> 35:08.750]  I don't know if I know specifically.
[35:09.150 --> 35:21.010]  There's supposed to be an easy pass lane at the airport where people who are pre-screened are going to have their information and their biometric identifiers on file...
[35:21.010 --> 35:22.890]  This is for frequent travelers, businessmen, people like that.
[35:22.970 --> 35:23.650]  Exactly correct.
[35:23.650 --> 35:28.770]  You're going to be able to take a card, go into a much shorter, much quicker line at the airport.
[35:29.010 --> 35:31.330]  You're not going to have to take your shoes off.
[35:31.530 --> 35:34.630]  You may be allowed more than three ounces of shampoo.
[35:34.910 --> 35:37.810]  And you're going to zip through security onto the plane.
[35:38.150 --> 35:49.750]  Well, it turned out to be, even for this administration, such an outrageous invasion of privacy, the way it was put together, the program was killed.
[35:50.850 --> 35:55.110]  All of the various incarnations of this program are now officially dead.
[35:55.830 --> 36:10.870]  Well, there's a company, and we're going to talk about this in detail tomorrow, there's a company that has turned around and bought up a lot of this information, and they were able to buy it up because it is not a government database.
[36:10.870 --> 36:16.950]  Even though it's going to be used by the government, it's a private database, just as we were talking about.
[36:17.130 --> 36:25.670]  And they are using the secure flight, secure traveler database to develop marketing strategies to frequent travelers.
[36:26.400 --> 36:41.970]  For example, they're going to look in your profile, and if it says that you buy baseball-related items in your credit report, well, the in-flight movie in front of you may be a baseball-related movie.
[36:42.290 --> 36:42.730]  Wow.
[36:44.150 --> 36:51.790]  Well, is this something that the average person is in danger of accepting as a convenience and not seeing as a privacy invasion?
[36:52.050 --> 36:53.210]  It's a done deal.
[36:53.210 --> 36:58.590]  Well, there's no, there's no, you know, the future tense is wrong.
[36:58.790 --> 37:06.930]  The average American has already, you know, just thrown up their hands in disgust and given up on the whole privacy issue.
[37:07.130 --> 37:16.870]  And, you know, I'm not going to be giving my talk tomorrow with any goal in mind.
[37:16.870 --> 37:33.470]  I'm not going to try to convince anyone to either believe that this is a wonderful idea and the government has the right to all of this information and private industry has the right to this information, and on the other hand, I'm not going to be one of the privacy maniacs screaming,
[37:33.670 --> 37:34.550]  the sky is falling.
[37:34.810 --> 37:40.710]  What I'm going to do tomorrow is I'm going to lay this all out there so you can make an...
[37:40.710 --> 37:45.630]  and you're going to be, I think, surprised at how objective a presentation it's going to be.
[37:45.630 --> 37:57.190]  It's going to be very matter-of-fact, in large part thanks to Rick Dakin giving me a guinea pig that I could put a clear example on the screen.
[37:57.790 --> 38:05.230]  I'm going to put all this up there, and I'm going to let people make up their own minds if they're comfortable having all this information out there.
[38:05.290 --> 38:08.490]  Now, a lot of this, by the way, is our own fault.
[38:08.490 --> 38:13.830]  You talk about whether the community at large is accepting of this.
[38:13.830 --> 38:28.390]  In fact, the community at large is facilitating this and accelerating this by putting so much of their personal details out there in digital and grabbable format.
[38:28.590 --> 38:29.190]  Oh, absolutely.
[38:29.190 --> 38:33.390]  I can't tell you the number of times I've found people's sixth-grade term papers online.
[38:33.950 --> 38:42.550]  All these little private things or diaries about their most intimate details in their private lives, their pets' names, who they have crushes on.
[38:42.970 --> 38:43.170]  Absolutely.
[38:43.690 --> 38:50.790]  Look, I'll tell you, if my space continues existence for five more years, every private investigator will go out of business.
[38:51.390 --> 39:02.490]  I mean, if you know people's drug use habits and their sexual orientation and what they did last Saturday night because they put it up on the net, who the hell do you need a private investigator for?
[39:02.490 --> 39:03.150]  That's right.
[39:03.230 --> 39:03.490]  Absolutely.
[39:03.830 --> 39:05.130]  We're talking with Steve Rombon.
[39:05.250 --> 39:06.150]  I said it right that time, right?
[39:07.110 --> 39:07.710]  Yes, you did.
[39:07.790 --> 39:07.890]  Good.
[39:07.950 --> 39:08.090]  Okay.
[39:08.150 --> 39:09.110]  That's how I'm going to say it from now on.
[39:10.570 --> 39:22.330]  And Private Eye Extraordinaire, who has been talking at every single HOPE conference since they began in 1994, and this one is not going to be an exception because we're making up for the talk he was not able to give in July, thanks to federal authorities,
[39:22.890 --> 39:27.290]  taking place tomorrow night, Thursday, November 16th, from 6 to 9 p.m.
[39:27.870 --> 39:29.630]  at Stevens Institute of Technology.
[39:29.970 --> 39:31.570]  Very easy to get to from New York City.
[39:31.890 --> 39:33.890]  If you can get to a PATH station, where are the PATH stations?
[39:34.970 --> 39:36.850]  Don't they run along 6th Avenue?
[39:36.850 --> 39:37.210]  6th Avenue, yeah.
[39:37.330 --> 39:40.490]  And there's one in 3rd Street, 23rd Street, 14th, 9th, Christopher Street.
[39:40.490 --> 39:40.810]  Wait, wait, wait.
[39:40.850 --> 39:41.530]  We have them all memorized.
[39:41.670 --> 39:41.970]  Say that again?
[39:42.930 --> 39:46.530]  33rd, 23rd, 14th, 9th, Christopher Street, World Trade Center.
[39:47.090 --> 39:47.370]  Wow.
[39:47.450 --> 39:48.550]  It's like a different...
[39:48.550 --> 39:52.290]  I remember when the subway strike was happening here in New York, we had a different subway that we could take.
[39:52.290 --> 39:53.070]  It was the PATH train.
[39:53.710 --> 39:56.090]  You have to get on the Hoboken-bound path, though.
[39:56.170 --> 39:57.050]  Don't go to Journal Square.
[39:57.050 --> 39:57.790]  Yeah, it's very easy.
[39:57.910 --> 39:58.610]  There's two trains.
[39:59.630 --> 40:00.030]  You can take.
[40:00.170 --> 40:01.570]  One is Hoboken, one isn't.
[40:01.670 --> 40:04.770]  Just get on the Hoboken one, get off the first stop, and that's it.
[40:04.810 --> 40:05.830]  That's all you have to worry about.
[40:06.190 --> 40:20.010]  The easiest one for most people to get to who are going to be taking the subway is the one at 33rd Street because it abuts the subway station at Herald Square where you can get the B, the D, the F, the N, the R, and all those.
[40:20.150 --> 40:26.310]  It's a block away from the numbered trains, the 1, 2, and 3, and it's two blocks away from the A, the C, and the E.
[40:26.310 --> 40:28.490]  The PATH train is even on the subway map.
[40:28.570 --> 40:30.790]  You can see it's a little gray line.
[40:30.790 --> 40:30.870]  That's true.
[40:30.970 --> 40:32.490]  So that tells you where the stops are as well.
[40:32.990 --> 40:36.070]  If you can't be there precisely at 6, come whenever you can.
[40:36.070 --> 40:37.450]  I know some people are getting out of work.
[40:38.390 --> 40:39.630]  It's just a little warning.
[40:39.770 --> 40:43.770]  Here's supposed to rain tomorrow, so bring an umbrella because you have to walk a couple of blocks.
[40:44.270 --> 40:45.090]  Won't be a big deal.
[40:45.270 --> 40:49.490]  Actually, if you really don't want to walk in the rain, there's taxis, and it's flat $2.
[40:50.030 --> 40:51.010]  I think it's more now.
[40:51.150 --> 40:51.310]  Really?
[40:51.310 --> 40:55.230]  Well, it's like taking the MTA subway somewhere.
[40:55.470 --> 40:56.250]  Well, $2 gets you...
[40:56.250 --> 40:57.810]  You can look at a taxi in New York for $2.
[40:58.150 --> 41:03.050]  So that's Hoboken, New Jersey, the Babio Center, room 122.
[41:03.210 --> 41:05.390]  Just get off the PATH train, and what is it?
[41:05.450 --> 41:06.330]  Walk along the Hudson River?
[41:06.750 --> 41:08.070]  You just walk north.
[41:08.930 --> 41:11.070]  You can see the Hudson when it's on your right.
[41:11.190 --> 41:12.830]  When you walk straight, you're walking north.
[41:13.250 --> 41:17.450]  You'll be on River Street or Hudson Street, and you just walk straight, and you'll run into the Stevens Cafe.
[41:17.450 --> 41:18.170]  You run into the building.
[41:22.410 --> 41:24.850]  It's the newest building on campus, so it looks like it, too.
[41:25.070 --> 41:25.350]  All right.
[41:25.490 --> 41:33.730]  So now, our goal tonight, first of all, if you attended the HOPE Conference, we expect you to be there, because technically this is part of the HOPE Conference.
[41:33.930 --> 41:46.130]  I know we've been getting a lot of letters from people in places like California and Texas and even Florida, saying that this is too far away, that they can't make it, and it's easy.
[41:46.130 --> 41:46.970]  It's very easy.
[41:47.050 --> 41:50.970]  Just hop on a plane and take mass transit, and you're there.
[41:50.970 --> 41:53.570]  But those of you who are nearby, it's really, really simple.
[41:53.850 --> 41:55.250]  Our goal tonight is to get Bernie S.
[41:55.290 --> 41:56.290]  to come up in Philadelphia, right?
[41:56.830 --> 41:58.630]  Yeah, Bernie, it's not that hard.
[41:59.550 --> 41:59.890]  Bernie?
[41:59.890 --> 42:00.390]  I'll be coming up.
[42:00.530 --> 42:01.350]  Yes, I'll be coming up.
[42:01.410 --> 42:02.090]  Well, that was easy.
[42:02.270 --> 42:03.650]  Okay, we got...
[42:03.650 --> 42:04.710]  You see how easy it is?
[42:04.830 --> 42:07.170]  And is this Daniel I see from Italy?
[42:07.770 --> 42:09.770]  He's come in just for this talk.
[42:09.790 --> 42:10.230]  Is that right?
[42:10.890 --> 42:11.710]  Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[42:12.030 --> 42:12.290]  All right.
[42:12.350 --> 42:13.750]  You see how Daniel takes this seriously.
[42:14.350 --> 42:15.850]  I really hope that's not true.
[42:16.970 --> 42:20.190]  Steve, we expect a good presentation from you, and we have people coming from all over the world.
[42:20.190 --> 42:24.330]  Well, not only will there be a presentation, but there will be free T-shirts.
[42:24.670 --> 42:25.030]  Oh, wow.
[42:26.110 --> 42:31.810]  Investigate naked T-shirts for anyone who asks an intelligent question.
[42:32.170 --> 42:33.070]  Okay, well...
[42:33.070 --> 42:37.070]  And I am the decision maker on whether or not it's an intelligent question.
[42:37.830 --> 42:38.310]  Awesome.
[42:38.550 --> 42:41.270]  All right, our phone number here is 212-209-2900.
[42:41.270 --> 42:51.770]  If you have a question on privacy rights or technology as it relates to our disappearing freedoms as far as keeping our lives private, give a call.
[42:51.770 --> 42:55.610]  Well, talking to Steve Rombaum here, 212-209-2900.
[42:57.030 --> 42:59.650]  It's going to be a fascinating night, I think.
[43:00.350 --> 43:02.370]  Anything else that we have to look forward to, Steve?
[43:03.390 --> 43:05.110]  There are a few surprises.
[43:05.350 --> 43:08.270]  There are a couple of things I'm going to pull out of my little trick bag.
[43:10.250 --> 43:12.690]  But, you know, I'm going to save that to tomorrow night.
[43:12.690 --> 43:16.490]  Like, we can't give everything away or people just won't have an incentive to come.
[43:16.690 --> 43:22.330]  And for those of you who aren't truly able to make it and you have a bona fide excuse, yes, we will be recording this.
[43:22.390 --> 43:34.250]  And if you got a package of all the talks at Hope, we will send this to you free of charge and make it available to everybody else as well and put the audio online just like we always do.
[43:34.590 --> 43:37.190]  Anyway, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[43:37.190 --> 43:48.430]  We've got Steve Rombaum on the line and basically a privacy expert here who can answer any questions that you might have about just what information is stored about you.
[43:48.530 --> 43:50.010]  So let's take our first phone call.
[43:50.070 --> 43:54.010]  And by the way, since we have three people on the line, it's possible we might get that horrible BAI noise.
[43:54.150 --> 43:58.690]  And if we do, we'll have to take measures to counter it when we get this many people on the phone.
[43:59.110 --> 44:00.170]  Let's see who's out there.
[44:00.710 --> 44:01.190]  Good evening.
[44:01.270 --> 44:01.750]  You're on the air.
[44:02.370 --> 44:02.810]  Oh, hi.
[44:02.850 --> 44:03.310]  How are you?
[44:03.490 --> 44:03.710]  Okay.
[44:03.810 --> 44:04.550]  Please speak up.
[44:04.810 --> 44:05.670]  This is Robert.
[44:05.670 --> 44:07.970]  You were talking about the electronic voting machines?
[44:08.210 --> 44:08.510]  Uh-huh.
[44:09.490 --> 44:14.890]  In the movie Man of the Year, they used an electronic voting machine which had a problem.
[44:16.910 --> 44:17.350]  Okay.
[44:18.390 --> 44:19.950]  It's like double letters.
[44:20.170 --> 44:20.570]  Uh-huh.
[44:20.750 --> 44:23.990]  And if you were close to the top of the alphabet, that's how you won.
[44:24.090 --> 44:28.690]  That's how the man won because his name had a double letter and it was closer to the beginning of the alphabet.
[44:29.190 --> 44:30.630]  And does this tie into reality?
[44:31.470 --> 44:32.470]  It could be.
[44:33.530 --> 44:34.590]  You understand what I'm saying?
[44:34.590 --> 44:37.390]  You don't know what's the fault for these machines with computers.
[44:38.030 --> 44:38.870]  Oh, that's true.
[44:38.870 --> 44:39.710]  When you're dealing with computers.
[44:40.010 --> 44:42.430]  I personally don't understand what he's saying, but...
[44:43.110 --> 44:52.770]  If you want a more realistic approach at this, we mentioned this documentary already a bunch of times, but Hacking Democracy actually shows these real-life exploits of the Diebold machines.
[44:52.770 --> 44:55.070]  Yeah, Hacking Democracy is an excellent film.
[44:55.250 --> 44:58.450]  It's on HBO right now and you can find it all over the place on the internet, right?
[44:58.710 --> 44:59.070]  Absolutely.
[44:59.390 --> 45:00.490]  People are downloading it left and right.
[45:01.030 --> 45:04.630]  Steve, do you have any feelings yourself on privacy issues involving electronic voting?
[45:06.950 --> 45:15.090]  Well, I think the possibility is getting stronger and stronger that there's going to be a leak of how people voted.
[45:16.110 --> 45:25.450]  Certainly, a lot of these machines are going to tie a time and a date, I mean a very, very precise time, to a specific vote.
[45:25.450 --> 45:36.710]  In other words, at 2014-02, the person who came to the machine had ID number so-and-so and voted straight Democrat.
[45:36.710 --> 45:41.150]  And it's going to be very, very easy to cross-reference that to each individual.
[45:41.610 --> 45:48.530]  So I think the concept of the secret ballot is as dead as privacy.
[45:48.710 --> 45:51.850]  So it's kind of like tracing a MetroCard history.
[45:52.410 --> 45:53.730]  Oh, that's exactly right.
[45:53.730 --> 46:03.750]  And I'll tell you, I've worked on cases where we've gotten somebody's MetroCard travels because he was considerate enough to go to one of the machines where you pay with a credit card.
[46:04.410 --> 46:08.850]  So we knew specifically which MetroCard he had, and we got it.
[46:08.910 --> 46:11.570]  We had his complete travel itinerary.
[46:11.870 --> 46:13.870]  So, no, I just did that the other day.
[46:13.870 --> 46:16.230]  I bought a MetroCard using my credit card.
[46:16.370 --> 46:22.030]  So you're saying that with the information that I left behind, you could figure out where I was when.
[46:22.470 --> 46:25.950]  One of the things we're going to be talking about tomorrow is trackers.
[46:26.430 --> 46:34.050]  You know, everybody talks about being able to follow what you've done by your credit card purchases and talking on the phone and that sort of thing.
[46:34.250 --> 46:37.630]  It's actually much, much, much more involved than that.
[46:37.810 --> 46:58.750]  There are a dozen trackers out there right now that are constantly employed against every person in the entire United States of America that logs, and not necessarily for nefarious purposes, but nevertheless, it's happening, that logs everywhere you are,
[46:58.930 --> 47:06.930]  everywhere you go, everything that you do, the time of day that you do it, how long you're there, and so on and so forth.
[47:07.210 --> 47:12.510]  Now, one of them, almost every one of your listeners, I'm sure, is aware of, and that's your cell phone.
[47:12.830 --> 47:16.050]  We're going to discuss another 10 or 15 of them tomorrow.
[47:16.410 --> 47:18.310]  Okay, let's take another listener phone call.
[47:18.570 --> 47:19.970]  And good evening, you're on the air.
[47:20.270 --> 47:23.290]  Yes, I would like to comment on the machines.
[47:23.290 --> 47:23.990]  Go ahead.
[47:25.530 --> 47:25.950]  Okay.
[47:26.350 --> 47:27.590]  All right, let me turn my radio now.
[47:27.630 --> 47:27.970]  I'm sorry.
[47:28.070 --> 47:28.290]  All right.
[47:28.510 --> 47:32.290]  All right, now, I work as a pollster, and I work the big machines.
[47:32.310 --> 47:32.650]  Hold on.
[47:33.130 --> 47:33.550]  Okay.
[47:34.830 --> 47:41.510]  I work the big machines, and those old machines, first of all, the electricity is for the light only.
[47:41.950 --> 47:42.090]  Okay.
[47:42.750 --> 47:46.550]  Secondly, those counters, the lever is the counter itself.
[47:46.810 --> 47:50.710]  So when you pull the lever across to the right, you're opening up for a person to vote.
[47:50.710 --> 47:56.130]  Now, I sat by the machine, and I was the one that pulled the lever when everybody got out.
[47:56.370 --> 48:01.750]  Now, if somebody got into the machine, and I didn't pull that lever, they could not vote.
[48:01.950 --> 48:06.010]  Now, how easy is it for somebody else to just pull the lever without you seeing it?
[48:06.210 --> 48:10.070]  It's not easy at all, because I'm there throughout the whole thing.
[48:10.230 --> 48:12.570]  And when I leave, somebody else takes my place.
[48:12.690 --> 48:14.490]  And there's somebody making sure that that happens.
[48:14.490 --> 48:28.950]  Well, you know, the person at the table who was signing it, what happens, as you know, you voted, the person at the table finds your signature, you get your card, you give your card to me, I pull the lever, and you go in.
[48:29.210 --> 48:34.950]  Now, a lot of times, people try to kind of sneak by without dealing with me, and they couldn't do it.
[48:35.010 --> 48:36.530]  They say, oh, mister, I can't pull the lever.
[48:36.790 --> 48:39.010]  I said, that's because I didn't pull my lever.
[48:39.190 --> 48:42.250]  So those machines are very foolproof.
[48:42.250 --> 48:48.350]  So now, you seem to believe that those machines, the old mechanical ones, are the way to go?
[48:48.510 --> 48:49.570]  They're excellent machines.
[48:49.690 --> 48:59.390]  But, you know, but I would say this, for New York, because, you know, let's not play the game with these computer machines, because anything can happen to them.
[48:59.490 --> 49:04.430]  So if we allow those computer machines to come into New York, we're going to have fixed elections here.
[49:04.570 --> 49:05.650]  Believe me when I tell you that.
[49:06.230 --> 49:07.310]  I'm with him.
[49:08.010 --> 49:08.610]  I'm with him.
[49:08.610 --> 49:19.930]  So the thing is, is that either we do a paper ballot, or those big, giant machines are very, very accountable, and they're durable, and they work fine.
[49:20.090 --> 49:20.570]  Have you...
[49:20.570 --> 49:24.970]  Did you hear us talking earlier about the event on Friday, testing out the electronic voting machines?
[49:25.250 --> 49:25.950]  Yes, I did.
[49:26.190 --> 49:26.510]  Okay.
[49:26.630 --> 49:27.070]  Hope to see you there.
[49:27.070 --> 49:30.150]  And I think you just have to take the train to, you know, somewhere up by Yankee Stadium.
[49:30.250 --> 49:32.130]  Host those colleges up by Yankee Stadium, isn't it?
[49:32.250 --> 49:33.070]  Well, we'll find it.
[49:33.150 --> 49:33.570]  We'll find it.
[49:33.570 --> 49:36.150]  Hopefully, we'll see you there, and we can play with these machines and maybe break them.
[49:36.150 --> 49:37.990]  Yeah, because, you know what?
[49:38.070 --> 49:39.530]  We don't need those machines in New York.
[49:39.650 --> 49:40.830]  They're going to be fixed elections.
[49:42.310 --> 49:43.090]  We don't need them.
[49:43.330 --> 49:43.610]  All right.
[49:43.710 --> 49:44.590]  Well, let's see what happens.
[49:44.690 --> 49:45.070]  Thanks for calling.
[49:45.250 --> 49:45.510]  Thank you.
[49:45.750 --> 49:50.230]  No, I guess our new motto should be, the big, giant machines for the big, giant city.
[49:50.590 --> 49:51.310]  Yeah, why not?
[49:51.770 --> 49:55.090]  I mean, what was the problem with the voting system in the past?
[49:55.090 --> 50:02.050]  If you go back to 1950 or 1930, did people not know how to count the votes then?
[50:02.170 --> 50:03.370]  I mean, was there a problem?
[50:03.370 --> 50:06.430]  Do we really need this kind of new technology?
[50:07.830 --> 50:08.830]  And is it so new?
[50:09.570 --> 50:09.730]  All right.
[50:09.790 --> 50:10.210]  That's the question.
[50:10.310 --> 50:11.790]  212-209-2900.
[50:11.930 --> 50:17.990]  On the phone with Steve Rombaum, giving a talk tomorrow night as part of the HOPE Conference in Hoboken, New Jersey.
[50:18.570 --> 50:19.970]  And we'll give out the information again.
[50:20.310 --> 50:20.750]  Arsenio, go ahead.
[50:20.950 --> 50:31.170]  Well, you should really say that if you go to the 2600 website, there's a really detailed directions list and all sorts of ways of getting there by path, by the ferry.
[50:31.170 --> 50:33.830]  Go to www.2600.com.
[50:33.830 --> 50:35.850]  You'll see a story with a red dot next to it.
[50:35.970 --> 50:38.450]  And that will lead you to full directions.
[50:38.770 --> 50:43.790]  Anybody can find where the talk is taking place tomorrow night with those directions.
[50:44.110 --> 50:45.030]  Simple to get to.
[50:45.250 --> 50:46.870]  And it'll be a lot of fun, too.
[50:47.570 --> 50:47.910]  Okay.
[50:47.950 --> 50:48.770]  Let's take another phone call.
[50:49.510 --> 50:50.230]  And good evening.
[50:50.350 --> 50:50.810]  You're on the air.
[50:51.130 --> 50:52.330]  No, you're not on the air.
[50:52.390 --> 50:52.590]  Okay.
[50:52.590 --> 50:53.210]  Let's go over here.
[50:53.470 --> 50:54.010]  Good evening.
[50:54.010 --> 50:54.670]  You're on the air.
[50:55.950 --> 50:56.730]  Speak up, please.
[50:56.730 --> 50:57.850]  Good evening.
[50:58.210 --> 51:07.870]  I just had a question about what can people do to block their private information from being shown all over the Internet?
[51:08.210 --> 51:08.510]  Ah.
[51:08.830 --> 51:09.110]  Steve?
[51:09.410 --> 51:11.450]  Ah, very good question.
[51:12.110 --> 51:14.470]  If you were in front of me, I'd give you a T-shirt.
[51:14.650 --> 51:16.490]  That's a T-shirt-worthy question.
[51:16.850 --> 51:19.970]  Oh, well, I'm going to try very hard to be in front of you tomorrow.
[51:20.250 --> 51:24.910]  Well, if you do, come over and introduce yourself, and you've already won a T-shirt.
[51:24.910 --> 51:30.270]  First of all, don't give out information just because people ask for it.
[51:30.370 --> 51:36.310]  If somebody says, what's your Social Security number, say, what's your legal right to ask for it?
[51:36.850 --> 51:38.510]  Utilities don't have a right to it.
[51:38.550 --> 51:40.650]  The telephone company doesn't have a right to it.
[51:40.890 --> 51:55.650]  The only people that have a legal right to your Social Security number are people who are involved in your taxes or involved in your finances, such as the bank, such as your A tax preparer, things like that.
[51:55.930 --> 52:02.170]  Just because someone is extending credit to you, if you don't want to give them your Social Security number, don't.
[52:02.490 --> 52:05.490]  Now, they may not extend credit to you, but that's your right.
[52:06.170 --> 52:09.230]  Don't use the same identifier on things.
[52:09.450 --> 52:15.110]  Don't use your... For example, when they ask for your mother's maiden name, make one up.
[52:16.510 --> 52:18.950]  Don't give them your real mother's maiden name.
[52:18.950 --> 52:25.030]  Don't put your entire life history somewhere where it's publicly accessible.
[52:26.030 --> 52:32.810]  The best thing that could be done for privacy in the United States is to throw the off switch on MySpace.
[52:33.790 --> 52:44.710]  I realize that's a view that makes me sound like a Luddite, like the Unabomber, but frankly, people don't know what they're doing to themselves.
[52:44.710 --> 52:53.690]  The thing that everyone needs to remember is this is not like the early age of computers where space was at a premium.
[52:54.330 --> 52:59.150]  Everything that you put on the Internet will be there forever.
[52:59.690 --> 53:19.430]  And somebody diligent can go onto the net and use some other databases, as we're going to show tomorrow, and pull all of these random things that you personally have self-contributed, can pull all of this together and have a more detailed picture of you than you can ever imagine.
[53:20.070 --> 53:25.150]  I can go on the net and find out things about you that you haven't told your own family.
[53:26.170 --> 53:26.610]  Amazing.
[53:27.050 --> 53:28.370]  All right, thanks for that call.
[53:28.470 --> 53:29.010]  We hope to see you tomorrow.
[53:29.210 --> 53:29.410]  Thank you.
[53:29.570 --> 53:29.770]  Okay.
[53:30.470 --> 53:34.550]  And, well, Steve, that's kind of scary to think of it that way.
[53:34.550 --> 53:37.870]  Well, you know, there's pluses and there's minuses.
[53:37.970 --> 53:41.590]  There's very good reason to compile information on individuals.
[53:41.590 --> 53:48.350]  And, you know, in the interest of being fair and balanced, obviously we're going to cover that tomorrow also.
[53:48.590 --> 53:56.430]  But people are just not cognizant of how much they themselves are destroying their own privacy.
[53:57.410 --> 54:11.330]  The average person now, I believe it's some horrendous statistic, has 200-plus pieces of publicly available information on them on the Internet.
[54:12.130 --> 54:15.810]  Now, the Internet is still relatively new.
[54:16.750 --> 54:18.730]  You know, I'm not an old fellow.
[54:18.950 --> 54:19.670]  I'm middle-aged.
[54:19.890 --> 54:29.810]  But nothing that I did in grade school or in high school, or college for that matter, is publicly accessible on the Internet.
[54:29.810 --> 54:33.170]  There was no World Wide Web when I went to college.
[54:33.610 --> 54:43.050]  But people growing up today, their entire lives as it progresses is going to be stored in perpetuity on the Internet.
[54:43.330 --> 54:44.090]  Let me ask you something.
[54:44.250 --> 54:49.170]  Do you really want the crap that you wrote to your friends when you were in sixth grade?
[54:49.330 --> 54:52.170]  Do you want that permanently on the Internet for everyone?
[54:52.170 --> 54:58.490]  Yeah, but Steve, how many sixth graders are that aware of their privacy rights to not do that?
[54:58.850 --> 54:59.890]  Absolutely none.
[55:00.650 --> 55:01.690]  Absolutely none.
[55:01.990 --> 55:05.150]  But, you know, that's not even the point.
[55:05.290 --> 55:09.150]  The point is nothing is going to go away.
[55:09.730 --> 55:11.730]  That's what people need to be aware of.
[55:11.910 --> 55:14.210]  Not be careful what you put on the Internet.
[55:14.930 --> 55:21.310]  Understand that once you put up something on the Internet, you've given up all control and all right to it.
[55:21.310 --> 55:26.170]  Or by that same token, you could also put up fake information on the Internet and confuse people, correct?
[55:26.590 --> 55:28.670]  Well, not effectively.
[55:29.370 --> 55:33.590]  If, you know, people do that now, lots of people do that.
[55:33.750 --> 55:40.410]  And lots of people do it not because they're concerned with their privacy, but because their real data is not all that impressive.
[55:40.710 --> 55:41.310]  That's true.
[55:41.310 --> 55:48.590]  I mean, people lie about their educational level and, you know, whether they're six feet tall.
[55:48.670 --> 55:52.950]  They say they're six feet tall instead of five foot five.
[55:52.950 --> 55:57.170]  And guys say they have a full head of hair when they're bald as an egg.
[55:57.410 --> 55:59.750]  I mean, people do that all the time on the Internet.
[55:59.930 --> 56:04.050]  But there's too many things that you can cross-reference in.
[56:04.170 --> 56:07.270]  You don't remember to tell the same lie everywhere.
[56:08.090 --> 56:10.870]  Okay, listen, let's try and take one more quick call, and then we've got to get out of here.
[56:11.350 --> 56:12.330]  And good evening, you're on the air.
[56:12.870 --> 56:13.690]  No, you're not on the air.
[56:13.830 --> 56:14.210]  Let's try over here.
[56:14.330 --> 56:15.270]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[56:16.650 --> 56:17.070]  Go ahead.
[56:17.870 --> 56:18.790]  Yeah, hi.
[56:19.130 --> 56:20.610]  Kmart here in New Jersey.
[56:20.890 --> 56:24.930]  For a couple of months, even if you pay cash, they demanded your zip code.
[56:25.210 --> 56:27.010]  They backed off from that.
[56:27.210 --> 56:28.730]  They demanded your phone number.
[56:29.150 --> 56:30.390]  It's like a circus.
[56:30.390 --> 56:33.650]  They just try to grab whatever they want.
[56:33.970 --> 56:42.370]  And I'm wondering, when I throw my garbage out, is it true it's legal for whoever goes in my garbage can to take information?
[56:42.530 --> 56:43.010]  Is that true?
[56:43.010 --> 57:02.610]  Yeah, well, except for some small municipalities that have passed different laws, it's almost universal in the United States that once you put your garbage out for public collection in a publicly accessible location, meaning on the curb for the garbage truck to come,
[57:02.790 --> 57:04.690]  you've given up all right to it.
[57:04.810 --> 57:06.490]  Okay, we're going to have to end it there.
[57:06.490 --> 57:12.930]  But let's encourage everybody within the sound of our voices to attend the final Hope Talk tomorrow.
[57:13.130 --> 57:14.130]  Privacy is dead.
[57:15.070 --> 57:21.910]  And actually, I think you'll feel more optimistic with the education that you get out of this than pessimistic when it's all said and done.
[57:22.070 --> 57:28.990]  It takes place tomorrow night between 6 and 9 at the Stevens Institute of Technology, accessible via PATH train.
[57:29.130 --> 57:34.450]  Take the Hoboken-bound train one stop and go to Babio Center, room 122.
[57:34.590 --> 57:37.710]  Full details on www.2600.com.
[57:38.210 --> 57:39.770]  Jim, that information on Friday night?
[57:39.990 --> 57:47.130]  Board of Elections is going to have demonstrations of electronic and similar voting machines at Hostos Community College, 5 p.m.
[57:47.190 --> 57:47.830]  to 10 p.m.
[57:47.830 --> 57:52.410]  The Savoy Multipurpose Room, 120 Walton Avenue in the Bronx.
[57:53.330 --> 57:57.990]  The number for information from Hostos is 718-518-4444.
[57:58.370 --> 58:02.690]  The Board of Elections, 866-868-3692.
[58:02.990 --> 58:05.870]  Okay, and I want to thank Steve for being on the show tonight.
[58:05.930 --> 58:06.970]  Look forward to tomorrow night.
[58:07.470 --> 58:08.170]  My pleasure.
[58:08.310 --> 58:08.930]  See you tomorrow.
[58:09.190 --> 58:09.730]  All right, good night.
[58:09.950 --> 58:13.950]  If you want to write to us, we're at OTH at 2600.com.
[58:14.110 --> 58:16.630]  We'll be on again next week between the hours of 7 and 8.
[58:16.630 --> 58:19.430]  Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show here on WBAI.
[58:19.570 --> 58:20.130]  It's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[58:20.190 --> 58:20.570]  Have a good night.
[58:47.880 --> 58:50.380]  Because he's got no heart
[58:56.500 --> 59:23.320]  Long shot at that jumping sign Visible shivers running down my spine Cut the baby taking off her clothes Close up with a sign that says we never close You snatch a junior match a cigarette She pulls the eyes out with a face like a mag man I don't know how much more of this I can take.
[59:25.440 --> 59:30.560]  She's filing her nails while they're dragging the lake.
[59:31.880 --> 59:34.860]  She's watching the detectives.
[59:35.600 --> 59:37.320]  Oh, it's so cute.
[59:39.020 --> 59:42.120]  She's watching the detectives.
[59:42.760 --> 59:46.960]  Oh, and then shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.
[59:47.340 --> 59:49.480]  They beat him up until the tree drops.
[59:50.440 --> 59:53.940]  But he can't do it because he's got no heart.
[01:00:00.460 --> 01:00:04.100]  You think you're alone until you realize you're in it now.
[01:00:04.300 --> 01:00:05.600]  Fear is here to stay.
[01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.140]  Oh, it's here for a busy call.
[01:00:08.140 --> 01:00:09.160]  And it's the chest.
[01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:10.960]  When it's past the legal limit.
[01:00:11.080 --> 01:00:12.880]  Someone's scratching at the window.
[01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:16.360]  I wonder who is the detectives from the deck.
[01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:21.840]  If you belong to the parents who are ready to hear the words about their daughter's disappearance.
[01:00:22.060 --> 01:00:24.200]  So it nearly took a miracle to go.
[01:00:24.220 --> 01:00:25.220]  Get you to stay.
[01:00:25.420 --> 01:00:29.040]  It only took my little fingers to blow you away.
[01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:34.640]  Just like watching the detectives.
[01:00:35.520 --> 01:00:37.400]  Don't get cute.
[01:00:38.220 --> 01:00:41.820]  Just like watching the detectives.
[01:00:43.020 --> 01:00:44.520]  I get to keep my little lines.
[01:00:44.520 --> 01:00:44.520]  And you feel new life.
[01:00:44.520 --> 01:00:44.520]  I don't know who is the flashlights.
[01:00:44.520 --> 01:00:44.520]  Don't get too blessed.
[01:00:44.520 --> 01:00:46.140]  Don't get too angry when the teardrives start.
[01:00:46.600 --> 01:00:50.400]  But you can't move on it because you got no parts.
[01:00:52.860 --> 01:00:55.060]  Watching the detectives.
[01:00:58.780 --> 01:01:02.260]  It's just like watching the detectives.
[01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:04.460]  Yeah, watching the detectives.
[01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:06.240]  Ooh, hey.
[01:01:06.820 --> 01:01:07.540]  All right.
[01:01:08.100 --> 01:01:08.820]  Hey, Kat.
[01:01:09.100 --> 01:01:10.880]  Hey, uh, that was pretty good.
[01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:12.300]  But I like Off the Hook, don't you?
[01:01:12.440 --> 01:01:13.260]  That's a pretty good show.
[01:01:13.560 --> 01:01:13.860]  Thank you.
[01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:15.880]  Yeah, well, you guys are the best, man.
[01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:17.740]  I tell you, you guys are off the chain.
[01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:18.240]  I mean, hook.
[01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:24.460]  And the only problem is when I'm listening to you guys, I can't listen to you because you're on right before us.
[01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:26.260]  And yeah, I downloaded it.
[01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:29.880]  But anyway, this is WBAI, New York 99.5 FM.