[00:00.000 --> 00:15.500]  Because when you say that Mumia did not have a fair trial, irregardless of whether you can stand up and say today that Mumia is innocent, and I've been saying it for the longest, Mumia is a black political prisoner on death row.
[00:15.900 --> 00:22.800]  Maureen Faulkner, widow of Officer Daniel Faulkner, and the Philadelphia Fraternal Order of the Police, declined to comment for this article.
[00:23.360 --> 00:27.660]  From Philadelphia, this is Rachel Ingersoll reporting for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:30.960 --> 00:33.220]  You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
[00:33.500 --> 00:35.900]  From KPFK in Los Angeles, I'm Laura Bogado.
[00:39.930 --> 00:45.490]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:45.590 --> 00:48.930]  And that means time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[01:07.650 --> 01:09.330]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:09.970 --> 01:11.870]  But if they could, they would.
[01:12.150 --> 01:14.770]  Bundilly bump for the best, expect the worst.
[01:15.390 --> 01:17.290]  I hope that's understood.
[01:17.490 --> 01:18.290]  Bundilly bump!
[01:55.740 --> 01:56.980]  And a good evening to everybody.
[01:57.100 --> 01:58.480]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:58.760 --> 02:01.580]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:01.580 --> 02:10.660]  Talking about high technology, the latest developments in privacy intrusion, big brother Orwellian things, and all sorts of other fun hacking issues.
[02:11.560 --> 02:14.140]  And joining me tonight, over there is Mike.
[02:14.440 --> 02:14.720]  Hi.
[02:15.280 --> 02:16.500]  And Redbird.
[02:16.820 --> 02:17.340]  Good evening.
[02:17.920 --> 02:18.360]  Jim.
[02:18.760 --> 02:19.200]  Hello.
[02:19.740 --> 02:22.380]  And on the other side of the room is not Kevin.
[02:22.720 --> 02:23.080]  Hello.
[02:23.860 --> 02:24.280]  Bernie S.
[02:24.340 --> 02:25.080]  joins us from Philadelphia.
[02:25.780 --> 02:26.160]  Hi there.
[02:27.580 --> 02:31.060]  And we've had a few very interesting bits of news this week.
[02:32.360 --> 02:34.640]  But first, I'd like to start off on a personal note.
[02:35.020 --> 02:37.560]  And Jim, I'm going to direct this at you because it involves the MetroCard.
[02:37.620 --> 02:41.360]  It's something that I always get involved with before I get to the program because I've got to take a bus.
[02:41.840 --> 02:42.300]  Why me?
[02:42.320 --> 02:45.200]  It's been a long time since I had any direct involvement.
[02:45.500 --> 02:48.560]  But you are the only person in the room who has ever worked for the Transit Authority.
[02:48.980 --> 02:49.480]  All right.
[02:49.580 --> 02:50.900]  Which speaks to your mental state.
[02:51.220 --> 02:51.920]  At the time.
[02:52.000 --> 02:52.380]  At the time.
[02:52.480 --> 02:53.260]  At the time, yeah.
[02:54.060 --> 02:55.120]  I don't know how you got through it.
[02:55.160 --> 02:55.560]  I really don't.
[02:55.560 --> 02:58.340]  But, okay, here's my gripe for last week.
[02:58.400 --> 03:01.600]  And I talked about this off-air, but I figured people should know about it as well.
[03:02.540 --> 03:06.000]  I put my MetroCard into the bus, and it turns out that it was short.
[03:06.120 --> 03:08.440]  It only had $1.20 on it instead of $2.
[03:08.860 --> 03:10.640]  I can see where this is going already.
[03:10.780 --> 03:10.800]  Yeah.
[03:10.800 --> 03:15.880]  So, okay, what's the logical thing that you would think an intelligence system would allow you to do?
[03:16.340 --> 03:18.400]  Put in another MetroCard to duck 80 cents.
[03:18.700 --> 03:25.940]  No, the bus driver jumped out of her booth to stop me from doing that and said, no, if you do that, it's going to charge you a whole nother $2.
[03:26.560 --> 03:35.640]  I cannot believe that this multi-million dollar system is not capable of subtracting 80 cents from a second MetroCard, knowing that I've already put in $1.20.
[03:35.640 --> 03:46.920]  Because it can't differentiate between some poor soul who only has a MetroCard with $1.20 on it and no other change, and the next poor soul who happens to have a MetroCard that has over $2.00 on it.
[03:46.920 --> 03:50.300]  Okay, but then what happens to that MetroCard if the person has no more change?
[03:50.500 --> 03:52.020]  The MTA just keeps the money?
[03:52.200 --> 03:52.300]  Yeah.
[03:53.280 --> 03:56.680]  You see, I thought it would warn me and say, you only have $1.20, what do you want to do?
[03:56.740 --> 03:58.640]  Here's your card back or something like that.
[03:58.760 --> 04:02.840]  Instead, it takes $1.20, and then you have to have change.
[04:02.920 --> 04:05.040]  Fortunately, I had change, but if I didn't have change...
[04:05.040 --> 04:07.820]  Most bus drivers are reasonable and they'll let you board the bus anyway.
[04:08.040 --> 04:08.280]  Exactly.
[04:08.460 --> 04:10.800]  Well, you're saying I could get away with riding the bus for $1.20 now.
[04:10.800 --> 04:12.640]  It's the same thing when the MetroCard machine is broken.
[04:12.700 --> 04:13.740]  They'll let you board the bus.
[04:13.900 --> 04:14.720]  It's not a big deal.
[04:14.900 --> 04:15.880]  You're just making it a big deal.
[04:15.940 --> 04:16.880]  What do you mean it's not a big deal?
[04:16.880 --> 04:17.780]  I lost...
[04:17.780 --> 04:21.100]  Well, I could have lost $2.00, and in addition to that, I didn't get a free transfer later on.
[04:21.340 --> 04:21.420]  Exactly.
[04:21.420 --> 04:22.820]  That free transfer did not carry over.
[04:23.420 --> 04:23.700]  Right.
[04:23.840 --> 04:26.000]  If you pay either by...
[04:26.000 --> 04:29.280]  Well, you know, the driver probably should have punched up a transfer for you.
[04:30.140 --> 04:33.740]  But yeah, the transfer will not accrue to the MetroCard.
[04:33.920 --> 04:36.740]  Well, I should have asked for a transfer, but I didn't know I was going to get a transfer.
[04:36.740 --> 04:44.800]  If you use a MetroCard and it charges the $2.00 off the MetroCard, the transfer automatically is put onto that MetroCard.
[04:44.980 --> 04:47.240]  A lot of people don't realize that, don't know that, but it is.
[04:47.260 --> 04:48.480]  Well, that speaks to my second...
[04:48.480 --> 04:51.940]  Actually, that speaks to my third part, my three-part question here.
[04:52.280 --> 04:58.740]  Second part happened today, and it's related to the first part, because I had two MetroCards in my pocket, and I didn't know which was which.
[04:58.820 --> 05:01.420]  There's no way to know which has how much money on it.
[05:01.500 --> 05:03.260]  Even though they have different serial numbers.
[05:03.500 --> 05:04.220]  Yeah, but I'm not...
[05:04.220 --> 05:06.260]  Am I really supposed to write down the serial numbers?
[05:06.480 --> 05:08.160]  No, you should keep track of them.
[05:08.280 --> 05:09.860]  I mean, you could tell which is which.
[05:10.620 --> 05:14.560]  And a Sharpie will write on that white band where the serial numbers are.
[05:14.800 --> 05:15.480]  Okay, well, whatever.
[05:15.660 --> 05:17.040]  I wrote a whole article on how to read these things.
[05:17.100 --> 05:17.240]  Yes, it's a real pain.
[05:17.240 --> 05:17.880]  Yeah, I know that.
[05:17.880 --> 05:20.060]  And then you stop bringing your reader around, so it's useless.
[05:20.280 --> 05:31.560]  I mean, if you had your reader, I'd be able to get out of the problem right now, because I put the MetroCard back in my pocket, all right, with the other MetroCard, and now I don't know which one I used, which one has the free transfer on it for the bus later.
[05:31.740 --> 05:35.140]  You know how much crap I would have to carry with me if I carried everything that I...
[05:35.140 --> 05:43.260]  Well, I just think there should be a way for people to know how much value is on their MetroCards, because right now I have one that'll get me a free ride and one that I got to pay another two bucks for.
[05:43.300 --> 05:43.720]  There is.
[05:43.800 --> 05:46.380]  It's called a MetroCard reader, and it's in subway stations.
[05:46.520 --> 05:48.900]  So I have to go to a subway station before I can ride the bus.
[05:48.900 --> 05:51.160]  Well, here's where it gets even more difficult and annoying.
[05:51.920 --> 06:01.240]  There's the freestanding MetroCard reader in the subway station, which will tell you the last time it was used, and hopefully you should be able to figure out which one has the transfer on that.
[06:01.380 --> 06:01.540]  Right.
[06:01.920 --> 06:03.380]  If it's within two hours, you'll get a transfer.
[06:03.580 --> 06:03.780]  Right.
[06:03.940 --> 06:13.980]  But if they were both used within a certain period of time, you still won't be able to determine which one has the transfer and which one doesn't.
[06:14.860 --> 06:15.620]  Well, that's true.
[06:15.620 --> 06:19.840]  But I know only one of these was used today, so it should be easy for me if I could do that.
[06:19.920 --> 06:22.580]  Unfortunately, those things aren't at bus stops or only in subway stations.
[06:22.680 --> 06:22.980]  Oh, subway stations.
[06:23.120 --> 06:23.940]  Okay, third part.
[06:24.280 --> 06:24.840]  Wait, wait, wait.
[06:25.000 --> 06:25.480]  Yes, Mike.
[06:25.580 --> 06:28.740]  I'll tell you how to solve your problem, not for today, but for the future.
[06:28.740 --> 06:31.280]  It's not going to be one of these things like walk instead of take the bus.
[06:31.340 --> 06:32.020]  Is that what you're going to say?
[06:32.180 --> 06:32.380]  No.
[06:32.540 --> 06:32.860]  All right.
[06:32.960 --> 06:34.700]  You should take all the buses you want.
[06:34.700 --> 06:35.520]  Because that would be highly annoying.
[06:35.780 --> 06:35.940]  Yes.
[06:35.940 --> 06:36.180]  All right.
[06:36.560 --> 06:37.700]  I should take all the buses I want.
[06:38.260 --> 06:39.940]  You know, no more, but as many as you want.
[06:39.940 --> 06:40.920]  Fine, as many as I need.
[06:41.520 --> 06:48.520]  What I have done when I've had more than one MetroCard is I put on, in my wallet, on top, the one that I'm supposed to use first.
[06:48.680 --> 06:51.840]  Which is great, except for when you're a clod like I was today and you forget.
[06:52.180 --> 06:52.400]  Okay?
[06:52.580 --> 06:53.780]  I put it back in the bottle.
[06:53.860 --> 06:54.640]  No, but I have a rule.
[06:54.780 --> 06:56.960]  I always put the one I'm supposed to use first on top.
[06:57.280 --> 06:57.580]  Never.
[06:57.840 --> 06:59.900]  There's no clodding about...
[06:59.900 --> 07:05.720]  Developing all these rules that we have to live by, why can't we just print the amount somewhere on the card, how much it's worth, like they do in D.C.
[07:05.840 --> 07:06.680]  and in San Francisco?
[07:06.860 --> 07:09.360]  I mean, then you have a limited number of times you can use the card.
[07:09.940 --> 07:10.880]  Well, you already do.
[07:11.000 --> 07:12.580]  They kind of wear out, as you've also witnessed.
[07:13.180 --> 07:13.820]  Well, yeah.
[07:13.820 --> 07:21.060]  You could take a Sharpie and write the letters A, B, C, whatever, one on each card.
[07:21.280 --> 07:23.440]  This would differentiate the cards between them.
[07:23.560 --> 07:29.200]  And you could use your short-term memory as you put the card marked, for argument's sake, A, into the bus.
[07:29.380 --> 07:31.520]  Jim, the way it works is much more complicated than that.
[07:31.600 --> 07:32.900]  I leave a MetroCard in a pocket.
[07:32.900 --> 07:34.040]  I put on a different pair of pants.
[07:34.060 --> 07:35.940]  And then all of a sudden, I discover the MetroCard.
[07:36.240 --> 07:38.260]  Six months later, I don't know where it came from.
[07:38.260 --> 07:39.320]  I don't know how much is on it.
[07:39.340 --> 07:42.580]  It's just a gift from heaven that I either get to use or not.
[07:42.580 --> 07:45.120]  But I don't know until I get on the bus how much is on it.
[07:45.140 --> 07:47.300]  Either you have a lot of pants or you really need to do the laundry.
[07:47.300 --> 07:48.320]  I have a lot of MetroCards.
[07:48.660 --> 07:51.080]  Frankly, this is something that I seldom say to anyone.
[07:51.240 --> 07:54.000]  And I don't usually believe that it applies to anyone.
[07:54.100 --> 07:55.620]  But in your case, I think it's true.
[07:56.340 --> 07:59.280]  MetroCards are created for the express purpose of driving you insane.
[07:59.760 --> 08:00.480]  It could be.
[08:00.600 --> 08:01.620]  But many things have been.
[08:01.760 --> 08:02.360]  Many things have been.
[08:02.420 --> 08:04.520]  And I have some defenses, which we're also going to get to.
[08:04.520 --> 08:06.220]  But here's the third part of that question.
[08:06.360 --> 08:07.780]  It's more of a theoretical question.
[08:08.100 --> 08:08.880]  You know how.
[08:08.880 --> 08:10.140]  This is another thing that drives me crazy.
[08:10.140 --> 08:16.840]  If you swipe somebody in multiple times on the subway and then get on a bus later, you instantly get all the transfers, all the free transfers.
[08:17.020 --> 08:20.300]  Like, let's say you let three people into the subway.
[08:20.320 --> 08:21.600]  You swipe your car three times.
[08:22.040 --> 08:23.760]  But you're the only person getting on the bus.
[08:23.760 --> 08:28.180]  You're still going to get three transfers because the system assumes that you're still with those three people.
[08:28.180 --> 08:29.520]  You haven't had a big fight on the train.
[08:29.520 --> 08:31.100]  And you've all split and gone your separate ways.
[08:31.420 --> 08:38.760]  My question is, what happens if you swipe one person in and then, say, swipe another person in five minutes later?
[08:39.160 --> 08:40.300]  Do you get two transfers?
[08:40.420 --> 08:40.880]  Do you get one?
[08:41.100 --> 08:46.340]  What happens if you swipe somebody in an hour and a half later and then try to ride the bus an hour after that?
[08:46.420 --> 08:48.880]  Do you want to get one because the other one has expired?
[08:48.880 --> 08:50.500]  Or do you get two and somehow beat the system?
[08:51.340 --> 08:51.480]  No.
[08:51.900 --> 08:52.660]  If you swipe...
[08:52.660 --> 08:53.140]  What do you mean no?
[08:53.240 --> 08:53.760]  No to everything?
[08:53.900 --> 08:56.200]  Well, no to everything until I tell you otherwise.
[08:56.380 --> 08:56.680]  All right.
[08:57.900 --> 08:58.640]  Oh, what's harsh?
[08:59.520 --> 09:00.620]  You're like an MTA employee now.
[09:01.180 --> 09:04.200]  I'm sorry, it's just bubbling to the surface after all these years of refreshment.
[09:04.200 --> 09:05.560]  Come on, there's going to be a simple answer to this.
[09:05.760 --> 09:15.400]  When you swipe a paper ride card, a card that takes two bucks off for every ride, you can swipe it up to four times and get four transfers onto that card.
[09:15.560 --> 09:18.080]  If you do it five times, it will only accrue four.
[09:18.300 --> 09:21.460]  Now, we're assuming that you do this all pretty much at once.
[09:21.560 --> 09:22.660]  What's that defined as?
[09:22.720 --> 09:28.500]  I believe it's within the passback period, which is something in between 15 to 18 minutes or something, I think.
[09:28.560 --> 09:29.240]  No more than 18.
[09:29.520 --> 09:36.540]  So if I swiped a second one, say 17 minutes after I swiped the first one, and then I get on a bus an hour after that, I'll get two transfers?
[09:36.660 --> 09:37.400]  No, one transfer.
[09:37.560 --> 09:40.860]  Only one transfer, because I'm not in that swipe back period, or I am.
[09:42.400 --> 09:43.980]  Because it interprets...
[09:43.980 --> 09:46.100]  Okay, here you are with the card.
[09:46.280 --> 09:47.400]  Wow, we're losing listeners fast.
[09:47.540 --> 09:48.780]  I just want to say...
[09:48.780 --> 09:50.520]  We have a meter, and I see it going way down.
[09:50.520 --> 09:58.660]  I just want to say for all our out-of-town listeners that for everyone except Emanuel, the MetroCard is really not that complicated, and millions of people...
[09:58.660 --> 10:05.580]  Millions of people far stupider than any of us or any of our listeners use the MetroCard daily without any problems.
[10:05.780 --> 10:09.380]  You can't tell me you've never sat up at night wondering about this.
[10:09.540 --> 10:11.780]  I've never sat up at night wondering about this.
[10:11.780 --> 10:14.140]  I just told you you can't do that, and you did it anyway.
[10:14.680 --> 10:15.380]  No respect.
[10:15.760 --> 10:17.020]  All right, well, I think...
[10:17.020 --> 10:19.460]  Do you know this for certain, or is this just what you assume?
[10:19.800 --> 10:21.100]  I know this for certain, yes.
[10:22.500 --> 10:35.180]  When, back in the day, when they gave us instructional classes on this, if you swipe it a number of times and paper rides are taken off it, it's like one unit.
[10:35.400 --> 10:38.080]  If you do it again later, it forgets about...
[10:38.080 --> 10:40.060]  And later is defined as what?
[10:40.300 --> 10:41.360]  Well, that's a good question.
[10:41.540 --> 10:42.040]  That's my question.
[10:42.260 --> 10:46.620]  Like I said, I think it's between 15 and 18 minutes, if I remember correctly.
[10:46.760 --> 10:50.740]  But there's a passback period that's a defined amount.
[10:50.860 --> 10:51.720]  It's a defined range.
[10:51.900 --> 11:00.100]  Okay, well, what I'm getting at is if there's a way to keep staggering that and wait the maximum amount of time and spread everybody out over a particular...
[11:00.100 --> 11:01.900]  You still wouldn't hit the two-hour transfer period.
[11:01.980 --> 11:06.520]  Why don't we write them and give them a number of examples and see what they actually say?
[11:06.600 --> 11:07.680]  That would actually be interesting.
[11:07.900 --> 11:08.920]  Well, I think we should just do it.
[11:09.220 --> 11:18.820]  We should get five people, four people actually, in a train station and every 17 minutes swipe somebody else in and then two hours after the last person gets on...
[11:18.820 --> 11:19.060]  Hour and a half.
[11:19.560 --> 11:23.140]  Two hours after the last person gets on, we try to get on a bus and see how many transfers we get.
[11:23.280 --> 11:24.720]  No, don't do it two hours because...
[11:24.720 --> 11:25.560]  That's the whole point of the experiment.
[11:25.560 --> 11:27.180]  The bus may not come along at two hours.
[11:27.360 --> 11:27.480]  Oh, okay.
[11:27.600 --> 11:28.460]  You know, we have to allow...
[11:28.460 --> 11:30.900]  Well, it still has to be enough for the other ones to have expired.
[11:31.200 --> 11:31.700]  You see what I mean?
[11:31.760 --> 11:32.640]  Oh, I see your idea.
[11:32.660 --> 11:33.620]  Okay, now I'm getting bored.
[11:34.440 --> 11:34.940]  All right.
[11:35.100 --> 11:36.520]  Well, that's because you're so far ahead of us.
[11:36.540 --> 11:40.700]  All right, let's get to something more active in scope here.
[11:40.940 --> 11:41.100]  Oh.
[11:43.360 --> 11:46.380]  Apparently, hackers are at the brink of cyber war.
[11:46.580 --> 11:47.220]  Did you know this?
[11:47.440 --> 11:48.280]  I didn't get a...
[11:48.280 --> 11:49.600]  I must have missed a memo or something.
[11:50.280 --> 11:55.460]  Computer hackers will open a new front in the multi-billion pound cyber wars.
[11:55.560 --> 11:56.080]  This is a British story.
[11:56.500 --> 12:09.100]  In 2007, we'll be targeting mobile phones, instant messaging, and community websites, such as MySpace and various other popular sites that keep the economy going.
[12:09.520 --> 12:18.380]  As people grow wise to email scams, criminal gangs will find new ways to commit online fraud, sell fake goods, or steal corporate secrets.
[12:18.900 --> 12:24.840]  According to Dave Rand of internet security firm Trend Micro, the attacks are becoming more sophisticated.
[12:24.980 --> 12:28.100]  It's all about making money, and they're making a lot of it.
[12:28.840 --> 12:29.760]  Wait, who's making...
[12:29.760 --> 12:30.100]  Hackers.
[12:30.500 --> 12:31.580]  So is Trend Micro.
[12:32.040 --> 12:36.540]  Well, they say they make a lot of money by saying that, but apparently the hackers are forcing them to do that.
[12:36.720 --> 12:37.760]  That's very confusing.
[12:38.000 --> 12:38.980]  Well, let's listen to what they have to say.
[12:38.980 --> 12:47.140]  Okay, in 2007, hackers will be scouring social networking sites, such as MySpace, to gather information for more focused attacks on people's computers.
[12:47.180 --> 12:48.760]  Where do they get this battle plan?
[12:48.820 --> 12:49.540]  I haven't seen it.
[12:49.960 --> 12:51.260]  It is definitely...
[12:51.260 --> 12:54.520]  This is from Trend Micro's chief technology officer, Ed English.
[12:54.920 --> 13:00.120]  It's definitely an area that is ripe for more exploitation by malware, which is malicious software.
[13:00.660 --> 13:07.800]  People could find their computers infected with viruses that secretly record all their keystrokes, or send out millions of spam email messages.
[13:08.340 --> 13:22.100]  Identity theft fraudsters will trawl through sites, which allow people to leave their pictures and personal details, finding targets for phishing attacks, that's spelled with a P-H, fraudulent emails aimed at tricking people into revealing credit card numbers.
[13:22.300 --> 13:27.060]  It is way too easy for the spyware guys to assemble a puzzle of who you are.
[13:27.320 --> 13:29.000]  So buy Trend Micro antivirus products.
[13:29.020 --> 13:30.600]  Wait, is that the right word to use?
[13:30.820 --> 13:31.180]  The puzzle?
[13:31.740 --> 13:33.420]  Isn't it dissecting the puzzle?
[13:33.500 --> 13:34.320]  You're not creating a puzzle.
[13:34.860 --> 13:35.920]  Well, regardless, okay.
[13:36.060 --> 13:39.500]  Well, if it's a jigsaw puzzle, you might put it together, you assemble it.
[13:39.500 --> 13:40.060]  Oh, I see what he's saying.
[13:40.120 --> 13:40.340]  Okay.
[13:40.620 --> 13:41.340]  His name's English.
[13:41.460 --> 13:43.080]  I guess he does have command over the language.
[13:43.980 --> 13:46.540]  Yeah, so apparently hackers are planning all this.
[13:46.640 --> 13:48.580]  Now, I'd like to know, where are these people getting this information?
[13:49.160 --> 13:50.380]  From their PR department.
[13:50.760 --> 13:52.700]  I mean, this is obviously an advertisement.
[13:53.400 --> 13:54.820]  Well, no, no, no, you're wrong.
[13:54.900 --> 13:55.700]  There was a news story.
[13:55.840 --> 13:56.440]  I read this.
[13:56.540 --> 13:57.740]  This came over Reuters.
[13:58.000 --> 13:59.020]  What do you mean it's an advertisement?
[13:59.180 --> 14:00.760]  How could a news story be an advertisement?
[14:01.100 --> 14:02.340]  It's an advertisement to Scott.
[14:02.420 --> 14:04.200]  Yes, I agree with Jim for once.
[14:04.320 --> 14:05.400]  It's incredible.
[14:06.140 --> 14:07.760]  Reuters actually has ads on it.
[14:08.400 --> 14:09.960]  They're called video news releases.
[14:10.260 --> 14:14.920]  Well, it's funny because we did get a press release sent to one of our addresses.
[14:16.200 --> 14:17.600]  And this is unbelievable.
[14:17.600 --> 14:19.840]  This comes from the folks over at Acunetics.
[14:20.340 --> 14:21.880]  A-C-U-N-E-T-I-X.
[14:22.780 --> 14:23.440]  Hi, editor.
[14:23.580 --> 14:24.200]  It starts out.
[14:25.160 --> 14:26.160]  They know who we are.
[14:26.260 --> 14:27.220]  They addressed us as editor.
[14:27.380 --> 14:27.940]  It's a personal letter.
[14:28.100 --> 14:29.620]  A couple of days ago, the U.S.
[14:29.800 --> 14:35.380]  Computer Emergency Readiness Team issued a warning of a possible cyber attack by Islamic militant groups.
[14:35.440 --> 14:38.840]  The Computer Emergency Readiness Team is better known as CERT.
[14:39.080 --> 14:39.260]  Yeah.
[14:39.400 --> 14:42.020]  It used to be the response team, but I guess they don't respond anymore.
[14:42.260 --> 14:43.860]  No, they're at the ready.
[14:44.500 --> 14:52.440]  Anyway, apparently, Islamic militant groups are bracing for or gearing up for a possible cyber attack aimed at penetrating and destroying U.S.
[14:52.580 --> 14:53.680]  online stock trading.
[14:53.680 --> 14:55.980]  Again, I'm wondering how they're finding out all this information.
[14:56.220 --> 15:03.920]  At Acunetics, we feel this is cause for comprehensive precautions to be taken to ensure that sensitive information does not end up in terrorist hands.
[15:04.140 --> 15:10.520]  We urge firms with an online presence to regularly perform a security audit of their websites and web applications.
[15:10.700 --> 15:14.240]  I should point out that there is spelled T-H-E-R-E, which is wrong.
[15:14.440 --> 15:23.240]  But regardless, after the numerous instances of hacking attacks reported on the media, I believe that your audience would be interested in learning more about our service.
[15:23.240 --> 15:24.180]  Isn't it amazing?
[15:24.280 --> 15:25.120]  They offer a service.
[15:25.380 --> 15:28.260]  They weren't just alerting us to this, but they also offer a service.
[15:28.540 --> 15:38.680]  So the fantastic coincidence that they actually got wind of Al-Qaeda's plans to ping flood us off the net, and they also offer a service to prevent that.
[15:38.680 --> 15:39.920]  I just think that's...
[15:39.920 --> 15:41.140]  It's like God speaking to me.
[15:41.200 --> 15:41.560]  Well, they're ready.
[15:41.800 --> 15:43.140]  It's part of the readiness team.
[15:43.360 --> 15:45.660]  Anyway, I am pasting a copy of our press release below.
[15:45.820 --> 15:49.200]  We'd be grateful if you were to include this news in your publication slash site.
[15:49.280 --> 15:51.640]  I think reading it over the radio is the best way to do that.
[15:52.020 --> 15:52.880]  Please contact me.
[15:53.240 --> 15:55.880]  Signed, Tamara Borg of the Borg Collective.
[15:56.720 --> 15:59.000]  Press release follows for immediate release.
[15:59.160 --> 16:00.160]  Al-Qaeda cyber...
[16:00.160 --> 16:01.120]  Did I say something funny, Jim?
[16:01.380 --> 16:02.360]  This isn't funny.
[16:02.500 --> 16:04.400]  We're talking about Al-Qaeda launching cyber attacks.
[16:04.620 --> 16:05.600]  I'm terribly sorry.
[16:05.680 --> 16:05.920]  All right.
[16:06.300 --> 16:07.400]  Very serious here.
[16:07.460 --> 16:09.920]  Al-Qaeda cyber attacks against databases and servers.
[16:10.580 --> 16:15.920]  Acunetix urges online firms to take comprehensive precautions against possible attacks because they never would have done it ordinarily.
[16:16.700 --> 16:17.620]  The U.S.
[16:17.800 --> 16:19.380]  computer emergency readiness team, U.S.
[16:19.460 --> 16:24.420]  CERT, issued a warning of possible cyber attacks by Islamic militant groups associated with the Al-Qaeda network.
[16:24.820 --> 16:30.580]  Aimed at penetrating websites, disrupting online service, and destroying data, these attacks will probably target U.S.
[16:31.060 --> 16:33.140]  online stock trading and banking websites.
[16:33.140 --> 16:40.260]  According to Middle East Media Research Institute, Islamic websites have increased their focus on IT security-related issues.
[16:40.460 --> 16:48.680]  And one of the latest spates is the Technical Mujahad, an online magazine published by Al-Fajar Information Center.
[16:48.960 --> 16:50.080]  Got to get a copy of this.
[16:50.340 --> 16:52.460]  The 64-page edition magazine...
[16:52.460 --> 16:53.700]  Hey, it's the same number of pages we are.
[16:53.760 --> 16:54.600]  That's a lot of pages.
[16:54.800 --> 16:56.480]  I hope they didn't misread us for them.
[16:56.620 --> 17:00.400]  The 64-page edition magazine was electronically distributed to password...
[17:00.400 --> 17:01.240]  Wait, wait, what does that mean?
[17:01.320 --> 17:03.020]  64-page edition magazine?
[17:04.800 --> 17:05.560]  Shut up.
[17:05.700 --> 17:06.920]  Is that like a 64-page?
[17:07.220 --> 17:19.740]  It was electronically distributed to password-protected jihadist forums on the 28th of November and contained computer and internet security-related articles, articles such as the technique of concealing files from view.
[17:20.660 --> 17:21.880]  Wow, that's dangerous.
[17:22.400 --> 17:28.760]  The technique of concealing files from view and how to protect your files even if your device was penetrated.
[17:29.480 --> 17:35.900]  Well, you know, I got to say, this sounds like they're trying to protect against exactly the things that they're being accused of.
[17:36.320 --> 17:42.880]  Anyway, these were written for the intermediate to advanced user and they describe a variety of methods and software that provide security.
[17:43.220 --> 17:47.540]  The editorial emphasizes the great purpose of jihad in the information sector.
[17:49.620 --> 17:59.840]  According to the Privacy Clearinghouse, over 97 million personal records were stolen through hack-and-related attacks over an 18-month period spanning February 2005 through late November 2006.
[18:00.600 --> 18:07.600]  And although terrorist attacks go beyond, get this, the profit intention of hackers, organizations are now at great risk.
[18:07.980 --> 18:11.060]  These people, where do they get their view of what hackers are all about?
[18:11.060 --> 18:12.980]  The profit intentions of hackers.
[18:13.280 --> 18:14.280]  What are they reading?
[18:14.380 --> 18:15.440]  Where are they getting this information?
[18:15.440 --> 18:16.820]  Any clues, ideas?
[18:17.100 --> 18:17.220]  U .S.
[18:17.320 --> 18:17.480]  CERT.
[18:18.120 --> 18:22.620]  Is CERT telling them this or are companies like Acunetix making it up on their own?
[18:22.660 --> 18:23.500]  Well, probably both.
[18:24.160 --> 18:26.000]  They probably actually feed into each other.
[18:26.280 --> 18:29.400]  Acunetix tells CERT and CERT spits it back to them, something like that.
[18:29.640 --> 18:40.380]  Well, Acunetix Site Audit is a new on-demand web security audit service that provides an immediate and comprehensive security audit of all off-the-shelf web applications at an introductory price.
[18:40.380 --> 18:42.140]  I'm not going to read the price, but it's phenomenal.
[18:42.260 --> 18:43.440]  That's all I'm going to say.
[18:44.100 --> 18:54.340]  In addition to performing a thorough web application scan, Acunetix is also offering a complimentary audit of a company's web and database servers to ensure that web security is completely up to scratch.
[18:55.320 --> 18:56.200]  Oh, boy.
[18:57.380 --> 19:00.500]  Acunetix was founded to combat the alarming rise in web attacks.
[19:00.820 --> 19:07.740]  Its flagship product, Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner, is a result of several years of development by a team of highly experienced security developers, blah, blah, blah.
[19:09.560 --> 19:11.180]  That is pretty unbelievable.
[19:11.840 --> 19:13.700]  Well, they've got what they wanted.
[19:13.860 --> 19:16.300]  You just read their whole press release on non-commercial radio.
[19:16.460 --> 19:16.880]  Yeah, I did.
[19:16.880 --> 19:22.220]  But I feel I also raised some questions about it that maybe have not been raised before.
[19:22.520 --> 19:24.140]  Well, I'm just saying, this stupid...
[19:24.140 --> 19:31.140]  I mean, in the hands of a less credulous person, you know, this could go anywhere.
[19:31.360 --> 19:32.120]  Well, that's certainly true.
[19:32.180 --> 19:37.760]  I think that's the idea, is to get people to believe that they're being threatened and that these people are the only ones who can help them.
[19:38.260 --> 19:42.220]  But in any event, I want a copy of the technical mujahad.
[19:42.620 --> 19:46.360]  If anybody out there has one, and we can translate it to English, I'd sure like to see.
[19:46.840 --> 19:48.300]  It sounds like they're reprinting some of our articles.
[19:48.420 --> 19:49.280]  I'd like to know about that, too.
[19:50.340 --> 19:53.120]  Al-Qaeda has to give credit where credit is due, if they are.
[19:53.360 --> 19:58.740]  I don't know if you could successfully sue, you know, Al-Qaeda for copyright infringement or not.
[19:59.060 --> 19:59.800]  Well, we'll see.
[20:00.740 --> 20:03.260]  And then there's another hacker attack going on.
[20:03.420 --> 20:04.100]  We're at war.
[20:04.300 --> 20:04.880]  We're at war.
[20:04.880 --> 20:06.260]  We could get called up at any time.
[20:06.460 --> 20:08.980]  But this hacker attack is targeting UCLA.
[20:08.980 --> 20:11.140]  It affects 800,000 people.
[20:11.320 --> 20:11.880]  Did you hear about this?
[20:12.020 --> 20:17.860]  The University of California at Los Angeles has alerted about 800,000 current and former students.
[20:18.020 --> 20:19.280]  I didn't know they had that many.
[20:19.720 --> 20:21.880]  I guess it must be a lot of alumni.
[20:22.040 --> 20:23.460]  It would also include faculty and staff.
[20:23.740 --> 20:23.920]  Still.
[20:24.060 --> 20:25.100]  This happened on Tuesday.
[20:25.280 --> 20:30.800]  Their names and certain personal information were exposed after a hacker broke into a campus computer system.
[20:30.800 --> 20:39.220]  Now, only a small percentage, they say, less than 5% of the records in the database were actually accessed, according to the UCLA spokesperson.
[20:39.620 --> 20:42.520]  Still, it was one of the largest such breaches involving a U.S.
[20:42.640 --> 20:43.840]  higher education institution.
[20:44.300 --> 20:47.260]  The attacks in October 2005...
[20:47.860 --> 20:49.040]  began in October 2005.
[20:49.040 --> 20:59.720]  They ended on November 21st of this year when computer security technicians noticed suspicious database queries, according to a statement posted on a school website set up to answer questions about the theft.
[21:01.080 --> 21:17.140]  The spokesperson said the hacker used a program designed to exploit an undetected software flaw to bypass security and get into the restricted database, which has information on current and former students, faculty and staff, and some student applicants and parents of students or applicants who apply for financial aid.
[21:17.420 --> 21:20.700]  Many of the records do not link names and social security numbers.
[21:20.820 --> 21:25.300]  However, the two pieces of information the hacker was after are present there.
[21:26.560 --> 21:31.600]  The university's investigation shows only that the hacker sought and obtained some of the social security numbers.
[21:31.740 --> 21:35.140]  Out of caution, the school said it was contacting everyone listed in the database.
[21:35.720 --> 21:40.960]  This breach is among the latest involving universities, financial institutions, private companies, and government agencies.
[21:41.440 --> 21:52.020]  A stolen Veterans Affairs laptop contained information on 26.5 million veterans and a hacker into the Nebraska child support computer system may have gotten data on 300,000 people and 9,000 employees.
[21:52.160 --> 21:55.860]  What bothers me is the use of the word hacker being used over and over again.
[21:55.860 --> 22:00.520]  This is somebody who got information they weren't supposed to get or maybe they were supposed to get it.
[22:00.600 --> 22:02.520]  They were allowed but they simply abused it.
[22:02.700 --> 22:11.020]  And usually what this amounts to and I don't know the exact exploits in this case but it usually amounts to the IT staff not being competent enough to keep their systems patched.
[22:11.200 --> 22:17.840]  And of course the blame is diverted to a hacker or more accurately a criminal but it's really...
[22:17.840 --> 22:22.100]  Just because somebody knows how to use a computer better than you does not mean they're a hacker.
[22:23.460 --> 22:31.120]  And it's just incredible how they're really aggressively demonizing this word and making it seem as if this is what hackers are doing.
[22:31.280 --> 22:32.580]  We're declaring jihad.
[22:32.760 --> 22:33.700]  We're launching wars.
[22:34.040 --> 22:37.500]  We're stealing information and causing all kinds of viruses.
[22:37.880 --> 22:47.080]  And yeah, you know when you have that viewpoint of what a hacker is then you certainly can see why making hacking a felony is logical.
[22:47.680 --> 22:48.940]  But it certainly isn't.
[22:50.020 --> 22:50.880]  Bernie, any thoughts?
[22:51.000 --> 22:51.600]  I haven't heard from you in a while.
[22:52.780 --> 23:02.380]  I can say you might have some difficulty going after Al-Qaeda for the use of your intellectual property but I gotta say I knew Al-Qaeda.
[23:02.640 --> 23:03.940]  Al-Qaeda was a friend of mine.
[23:04.140 --> 23:04.320]  Oh boy.
[23:07.460 --> 23:08.340]  Yes, thank you.
[23:08.420 --> 23:09.000]  Thank you for that.
[23:10.240 --> 23:14.540]  Yeah, so we have that to worry about.
[23:14.840 --> 23:17.420]  Now, Mike, I know you've got something about voting.
[23:17.940 --> 23:18.240]  Yes.
[23:18.860 --> 23:20.240]  Is this good news or what?
[23:20.360 --> 23:21.340]  I think so.
[23:21.600 --> 23:35.740]  This was an article on December 8th in the New York Times by Ian Urbina and Christopher Drew who say that it seems like they're gonna pass some laws that will require a paper trail for electronic voting.
[23:35.740 --> 23:45.680]  So new federal guidelines along with legislation given a strong chance to pass in Congress next year will probably combine to make the paperless voting machine obsolete.
[23:46.400 --> 23:55.020]  State and counties that bought the machines will have to modify them to hook up printers at federal expense while others are planning to scrap the machines and buy new ones.
[23:55.160 --> 23:56.300]  So I hope they're right.
[23:56.900 --> 23:57.340]  Wow.
[23:58.100 --> 23:59.060]  Scrap them and buy new ones.
[23:59.180 --> 23:59.640]  I mean, that's crazy.
[23:59.660 --> 24:08.520]  This is the lunacy that if they had only consulted with people beforehand and opened this up to the public all these issues would have come out a lot sooner and all this money wouldn't have been wasted.
[24:08.740 --> 24:10.140]  But here's something interesting.
[24:10.300 --> 24:20.420]  All this centers on the Help America Voting Act which mandates that basically systems have to be accessible for disabled people, people in different languages.
[24:20.960 --> 24:28.980]  This listener writes in, I just wanted to clarify that HAVA, which I assume is the right way to say it, does not require the total adoption of electronic voting machines.
[24:29.000 --> 24:34.500]  It only requires that each polling site have some sort of system by which a disabled person can vote without human assistance.
[24:34.720 --> 24:40.280]  In a small New Hampshire town where I live, paper ballots and manual counting have and continue to be used for elections.
[24:40.500 --> 24:48.640]  To satisfy HAVA, however, the state gave each polling place an Inspire Voting System which consists of a telephone and a fax machine.
[24:48.820 --> 24:55.300]  To vote, a disabled person can use the phone to interact with an audio version of the ballot and then have their ballot printed out on the fax machine.
[24:55.540 --> 25:03.680]  If a disabled person is not completely blind or is hearing impaired, he or she also has the option of using low-tech aids like page magnifiers, bright lamps, etc.
[25:04.100 --> 25:06.140]  to assist them in using a traditional paper ballot.
[25:06.240 --> 25:12.460]  New Hampshire is one of the few states that requires a complete paper trail of all votes, although optical counters are used in some towns.
[25:12.580 --> 25:13.720]  Thanks, Ben, for that letter.
[25:14.800 --> 25:15.020]  Yeah.
[25:16.780 --> 25:27.540]  And here's some more information this actually touches upon the 20,000 bits of personal data being stolen from Nassau Community College last week.
[25:27.920 --> 25:32.280]  This reader writes, if that's any indication, paper has security vulnerabilities as well.
[25:32.600 --> 25:36.980]  So many people lament the absence of paper records when recording votes, but I see it a different way.
[25:37.140 --> 25:47.730]  This sentiment reminds me of my roommate who refuses to order pizza online for fear of having his credit card number stolen, yet is perfectly happy to fork that information over to some pimply-faced 16-year-old getting paid $5 an hour.
[25:48.670 --> 25:49.550]  Well, I would feel...
[25:49.550 --> 25:50.330]  Somebody's very angry.
[25:50.730 --> 25:51.090]  Wait, wait.
[25:51.170 --> 25:52.930]  $5 an hour is less than minimum wage.
[25:53.010 --> 25:53.770]  They should report this.
[25:53.830 --> 25:54.810]  Yeah, well, that's another issue.
[25:54.970 --> 26:05.010]  I would feel much more comfortable having my voting information stored digitally in a well-encrypted form on an open-source system than in some filing cabinet guarded by Beatrice, the octogenarian poll worker.
[26:05.650 --> 26:06.730]  People are missing...
[26:06.730 --> 26:10.510]  Okay, we've offended 16-year-olds and octogenarians in two paragraphs.
[26:10.830 --> 26:13.190]  People are missing the point about electronic voting technology.
[26:13.190 --> 26:18.410]  It seems to me that most people who are paying attention want to see electronic voting abolished entirely.
[26:18.410 --> 26:21.470]  I think it's an inevitable consequence of the passage of time.
[26:21.730 --> 26:27.350]  The focus should be on reforming these technologies so that they can be implemented in a secure and transparent manner.
[26:27.370 --> 26:29.230]  Thanks, Matt, from Fort Collins, Colorado.
[26:29.550 --> 26:30.610]  I agree 100%.
[26:30.610 --> 26:33.030]  I mean, that's a perfectly logical viewpoint.
[26:33.150 --> 26:34.810]  And Mike, you disagree 100%, is that right?
[26:35.210 --> 26:35.990]  Well, mostly.
[26:36.250 --> 26:37.510]  I wouldn't go so far as to say...
[26:37.510 --> 26:39.090]  Well, you want to go with paper ballots, right?
[26:39.170 --> 26:39.330]  Yeah.
[26:39.730 --> 26:40.470]  Like they do in Canada.
[26:40.670 --> 26:43.150]  I don't have a problem with Beatrice the octogenarian.
[26:43.430 --> 26:44.530]  Well, now here's...
[26:44.530 --> 26:48.610]  Speaking of the paper ballots, like they do in Canada, a Canadian, several Canadians wrote in, in fact.
[26:48.690 --> 26:49.470]  This comes from Fred.
[26:50.450 --> 26:51.590]  Different Fred, not the Fred we know.
[26:52.130 --> 27:01.470]  But the big difference between Canadian and American elections that makes pencil and paper ballots easier in Canada is that Canadian ballots have only one question on the ballot.
[27:01.590 --> 27:04.230]  You choose which candidate you want as MP for your writing.
[27:04.490 --> 27:04.750]  Writing?
[27:04.870 --> 27:05.530]  Is that a word up there?
[27:05.650 --> 27:06.450]  It means district.
[27:06.630 --> 27:06.790]  Okay.
[27:07.250 --> 27:09.190]  That is all one little paper, one X, and you're done.
[27:09.190 --> 27:10.950]  Is that their whole elections?
[27:10.950 --> 27:12.610]  You only vote for one person?
[27:12.790 --> 27:13.830]  I think it is the case.
[27:13.990 --> 27:17.650]  And then at a separate time they have provincial elections.
[27:18.330 --> 27:20.010]  And is that just one person too?
[27:20.210 --> 27:21.210]  I think so, yeah.
[27:21.430 --> 27:22.090]  It makes sense.
[27:22.110 --> 27:32.730]  A parliamentary system, you will vote for your candidate and whichever party gets the most seats in the House of Commons, their leader is the prime minister.
[27:32.850 --> 27:34.610]  But I want to vote for highway supervisor.
[27:34.610 --> 27:35.350]  How do I do that?
[27:35.810 --> 27:38.990]  Are you saying I don't have the right up there to vote for highway supervisor?
[27:39.290 --> 27:39.990]  Possibly not.
[27:40.170 --> 27:40.730]  My God.
[27:40.870 --> 27:42.270]  Or it might be a separate election.
[27:43.570 --> 27:43.930]  Wow.
[27:44.190 --> 27:44.430]  Okay.
[27:44.690 --> 27:46.990]  I don't see this problem as insurmountable.
[27:47.410 --> 27:50.410]  No, probably not insurmountable, but definitely something to be concerned with.
[27:51.170 --> 27:51.530]  Okay.
[27:51.690 --> 27:52.730]  Time for our demonstration.
[27:53.490 --> 27:53.810]  Oh.
[27:53.970 --> 27:54.510]  We have a demonstration.
[27:54.510 --> 28:00.390]  You have a special demonstration and it's going to involve, let's see, I believe, you, Redbird.
[28:00.390 --> 28:00.870]  I have a whole list there.
[28:01.010 --> 28:01.290]  What's that all about?
[28:01.290 --> 28:09.870]  I have a whole list of different things, but this is something that I think I'd like to involve you, Redbird, because you have a phone and the other person I'd like to involve is Not Kevin.
[28:10.470 --> 28:10.970]  All right.
[28:11.410 --> 28:14.430]  So Not Kevin, you take this...
[28:14.430 --> 28:16.790]  Actually, let me discuss the device I have first.
[28:16.790 --> 28:20.870]  This solid device I have in my hands is what's known as a cell phone jammer.
[28:21.030 --> 28:22.270]  I talked about it last night on the other show.
[28:22.890 --> 28:33.890]  And what this allows me to do is basically reclaim some of my life when I'm sitting on a train or a bus and some idiot behind me is yelling and screaming at somebody on a cell phone with a flick of a switch.
[28:34.130 --> 28:40.330]  I can turn this thing on and cell phone signals all around me are jammed, blocked, prevented from completing.
[28:40.650 --> 28:42.010]  And I can read my book.
[28:42.010 --> 28:42.970]  I can daydream.
[28:43.110 --> 28:44.250]  I can do whatever I want.
[28:44.610 --> 28:46.050]  People are free to talk to each other.
[28:46.610 --> 28:48.670]  I should point out this is fun.
[28:48.810 --> 28:52.910]  It's great fun to play with, but it should be used with a degree of responsibility.
[28:53.050 --> 29:00.990]  I don't use it when people aren't being annoying, but when people are being annoying, it's good to have something that you can use that isn't the weapon to...
[29:00.990 --> 29:06.370]  Wait, I've been on the street with you when you just like to turn random people's cell phone off for no good reason.
[29:06.590 --> 29:07.530]  That was the testing period.
[29:07.710 --> 29:09.010]  I wanted to see if it worked.
[29:09.010 --> 29:11.730]  You just lied to our listeners and I won't stand for it.
[29:11.730 --> 29:16.910]  I'm saying, I was on a train the other day and everybody was very well behaved and I did not use it.
[29:16.990 --> 29:17.670]  And I think that's fair.
[29:17.750 --> 29:21.730]  So you're the arbiter of well behaved and not so well behaved.
[29:21.730 --> 29:22.450]  Well, that's the thing.
[29:22.910 --> 29:27.070]  You obviously are taking on more responsibility than you should be permitted to have.
[29:27.070 --> 29:27.490]  I know.
[29:27.490 --> 29:28.530]  I didn't vote for you.
[29:28.690 --> 29:43.670]  But the thing is, you know, I don't know what the legality of this whole thing is but I do know that it's annoying to have somebody screaming in your ear to someone on another end of a phone and it's just good to be able to temporarily get some relief.
[29:43.970 --> 29:44.470]  That's all.
[29:44.930 --> 29:45.690]  Anyway, yes, Jim.
[29:45.850 --> 29:47.270]  I was going to say, you know what that thing needs?
[29:47.270 --> 30:02.570]  It needs a dead man's switch so that when you're riding on the bus or the train and something untoward happens and you're rendered unconscious or whatever, it turns itself off because your finger is no longer on the spring-loaded switch and other people can call the police on their cell phones.
[30:02.750 --> 30:02.930]  Uh-huh.
[30:03.410 --> 30:04.530]  I guess that's only fair.
[30:04.530 --> 30:06.990]  You know, Jim's got a point in a weird sort of way.
[30:07.130 --> 30:08.590]  It could be kind of dangerous.
[30:09.090 --> 30:10.990]  Well, definitely if this thing is...
[30:10.990 --> 30:12.310]  Yeah, and this is fairly tiny.
[30:12.450 --> 30:13.690]  We're going to test it in the other room.
[30:14.090 --> 30:15.250]  It's a brick.
[30:15.350 --> 30:15.750]  It's a brick.
[30:15.810 --> 30:18.510]  No, I'm saying it's tiny as far as the scale that it works upon.
[30:19.370 --> 30:22.270]  We're not sure it's going to work in the environment that we're setting up.
[30:22.350 --> 30:27.150]  So what I'd like you to do is call the studio line, the special studio line.
[30:27.230 --> 30:28.090]  The secret number.
[30:28.250 --> 30:28.510]  Yes.
[30:28.710 --> 30:33.870]  Secret number that we never give out that hopefully you can dial faster than all the other people who know it.
[30:34.370 --> 30:37.490]  And we're going to pick you up on the phone over here as soon as it starts ringing.
[30:37.790 --> 30:38.210]  There you are.
[30:38.870 --> 30:40.230]  And Redbird, is this you on the phone?
[30:40.550 --> 30:40.910]  Whoa.
[30:41.770 --> 30:42.950]  Wow, you've got Echo there.
[30:43.350 --> 30:45.850]  You're in the room but yet you're on the phone at the same time.
[30:46.050 --> 30:46.410]  Speak.
[30:46.730 --> 30:47.130]  Crazy, crazy.
[30:47.410 --> 30:50.770]  Because that's the delay that you deal with on a cell phone on a daily basis.
[30:51.850 --> 30:53.190]  Well, you've got to speak to...
[30:53.190 --> 30:54.310]  Testing one, two, three, three.
[30:54.310 --> 31:00.510]  Okay, I realize that you're freaking out because you're hearing me in your ear as well but we've got to have the demonstration for the sake of the listeners.
[31:00.590 --> 31:03.310]  Now what I'd like you to do is go out to...
[31:04.150 --> 31:05.170]  I guess right...
[31:05.170 --> 31:05.890]  The doorway...
[31:05.890 --> 31:06.670]  Don't take the headphones with you.
[31:06.970 --> 31:10.810]  Go to the doorway leading to the station right by the...
[31:11.230 --> 31:12.250]  On the side of the door.
[31:12.550 --> 31:14.470]  Okay, let's make sure you get your signal and keep it.
[31:14.870 --> 31:16.330]  He's walking down the hallway now.
[31:17.230 --> 31:19.150]  All right, he's continuing to walk down the hallway.
[31:19.290 --> 31:21.630]  Actually, he should be running down the hallway because radio time is...
[31:21.630 --> 31:22.090]  Hi, how are you doing?
[31:22.150 --> 31:22.790]  He's waving at us now.
[31:23.170 --> 31:23.450]  Just...
[31:23.450 --> 31:24.390]  Okay, if you can go to...
[31:24.390 --> 31:25.250]  You know, you can speak too.
[31:25.330 --> 31:25.930]  You have a phone.
[31:26.370 --> 31:27.650]  Oh, here we go.
[31:27.730 --> 31:27.950]  Okay.
[31:28.750 --> 31:31.030]  All right, so yes, stand where you're standing now by the door.
[31:31.150 --> 31:32.070]  I guess a little bit further.
[31:32.630 --> 31:34.350]  Now, not Kevin, I'm going to give you the device.
[31:34.370 --> 31:40.150]  What I'd like you to do is walk over to the window area in that same room which I guess is about...
[31:40.150 --> 31:40.950]  What did we estimate it was?
[31:40.950 --> 31:44.510]  We estimated about approximately 30 feet or 10 meters, somewhere in there.
[31:44.670 --> 31:44.910]  Okay.
[31:45.610 --> 31:47.730]  And what I'd like you to do is just go out.
[31:47.790 --> 31:52.050]  Don't turn it on yet until Joe gives you the signal and we'll tell him.
[31:52.130 --> 31:52.750]  What's the signal?
[31:53.050 --> 31:54.550]  Well, turn it on will be the signal.
[31:54.730 --> 31:55.590]  We'll tell him.
[31:55.670 --> 31:58.810]  We'll tell Redbird to tell you to turn it on at a certain point.
[31:58.950 --> 32:00.770]  Now, Redbird, how's your connection holding up so far?
[32:01.190 --> 32:01.890]  Sounds fine here.
[32:02.070 --> 32:03.030]  Yeah, no problems at all.
[32:03.050 --> 32:08.450]  You're having a nice obnoxious conversation in a public environment annoying people all around you and they can't do a thing about it?
[32:08.450 --> 32:09.130]  That's right.
[32:09.370 --> 32:09.610]  All right.
[32:09.690 --> 32:11.790]  I'm invading his personal space right now.
[32:11.870 --> 32:13.650]  Now, has not Kevin arrived?
[32:13.870 --> 32:14.750]  He has arrived.
[32:14.850 --> 32:17.630]  Is he stationed in the place where we want him to be stationed?
[32:18.710 --> 32:19.630]  I'm sorry, say again?
[32:19.810 --> 32:20.770]  He is stationed.
[32:21.010 --> 32:21.250]  Okay.
[32:21.350 --> 32:23.810]  So he right now is by the window.
[32:23.810 --> 32:24.650]  You're by the door.
[32:24.770 --> 32:27.130]  You're separated by about 30 feet or 10 meters or so.
[32:27.670 --> 32:28.210]  All right.
[32:28.270 --> 32:33.390]  I would like you to now give the signal to not Kevin to turn it on and continue talking to us.
[32:33.390 --> 32:35.530]  Let's see how long it takes or if it even works.
[32:35.710 --> 32:36.030]  Okay.
[32:36.110 --> 32:39.690]  I am now giving an inverse turn it on.
[32:39.890 --> 32:40.490]  Has he turned it on?
[32:40.890 --> 32:41.950]  He's got it on right now.
[32:42.070 --> 32:42.190]  Okay.
[32:42.270 --> 32:43.350]  And yet we're still able to hear you.
[32:43.530 --> 32:44.370]  Can you still hear me?
[32:44.450 --> 32:45.010]  I can still hear...
[32:45.010 --> 32:45.610]  Can you hear us?
[32:45.830 --> 32:46.710]  I can't hear you.
[32:46.770 --> 32:47.870]  You can't hear us.
[32:48.650 --> 32:48.970]  Wow.
[32:49.390 --> 32:50.890]  And I don't think we can hear you anymore.
[32:51.070 --> 32:51.230]  Speak.
[32:52.770 --> 32:55.390]  That is the sound of technology working.
[32:56.070 --> 32:56.390]  Wow.
[32:56.390 --> 32:57.330]  We're failing to work.
[32:57.670 --> 32:58.250]  No, it worked.
[32:58.410 --> 32:59.890]  Well, the cell phone is technology too.
[32:59.930 --> 33:01.490]  Yeah, but we're jamming the cell phone.
[33:01.650 --> 33:04.010]  We prevented the cell phone from...
[33:04.730 --> 33:05.090]  Wow.
[33:05.830 --> 33:06.190]  Unbelievable.
[33:06.370 --> 33:07.890]  Bernie, are you as shocked as I am?
[33:09.810 --> 33:11.330]  That's the sound of a phone disconnecting.
[33:11.370 --> 33:11.530]  Hold on.
[33:11.650 --> 33:12.830]  We've got to get rid of that.
[33:13.250 --> 33:13.510]  All right.
[33:13.690 --> 33:14.270]  Bernie, are you there?
[33:14.990 --> 33:15.870]  The silence is golden.
[33:16.050 --> 33:16.530]  It is.
[33:16.610 --> 33:16.970]  It is.
[33:17.330 --> 33:17.930]  Well done.
[33:18.110 --> 33:18.390]  Well done.
[33:18.770 --> 33:20.110]  And they're back in the studio now.
[33:20.770 --> 33:23.370]  So how did it feel to get completely cut off like that?
[33:23.590 --> 33:31.770]  If I was waiting for my heart transplant and I needed that phone to work, not Kevin, that would have been very detrimental to my health.
[33:31.910 --> 33:32.030]  Yeah.
[33:32.290 --> 33:32.530]  All right.
[33:32.710 --> 33:34.650]  So it worked something else would have got the heart transplant.
[33:34.850 --> 33:36.810]  Yeah, someone else would have evens out in the end.
[33:37.110 --> 33:37.890]  It's a net...
[33:37.890 --> 33:39.330]  It's a net...
[33:39.770 --> 33:40.650]  It evens out.
[33:41.010 --> 33:41.970]  No, it's a game.
[33:42.410 --> 33:44.950]  So Bernie, now you're so much familiar with the legal aspects of this.
[33:45.030 --> 33:46.710]  What are the legalities of these kind of devices?
[33:47.430 --> 33:53.890]  Well, it goes back to the Communications Act in 1934, which is a...
[33:54.610 --> 33:56.690]  is an administration administrative rule from the FCC.
[33:56.950 --> 34:02.570]  It's not a criminal law, but it provides for penalties of...
[34:02.570 --> 34:07.410]  Now it's up to $11,000 for intentionally interfering with a radio communications service.
[34:08.510 --> 34:09.430]  Hold on, hold on.
[34:09.490 --> 34:09.630]  Wait.
[34:10.010 --> 34:11.970]  A fine of $11,000 for...
[34:11.970 --> 34:13.010]  It sounded like...
[34:13.490 --> 34:16.510]  Intentionally interfering with a radio communications service.
[34:16.610 --> 34:17.450]  Isn't that what we just did?
[34:17.770 --> 34:18.170]  Yeah.
[34:18.410 --> 34:19.390]  Well, I'm glad I didn't do it.
[34:20.470 --> 34:21.310]  Thanks a lot.
[34:22.010 --> 34:22.690]  You asked.
[34:23.010 --> 34:29.410]  Well, I just sat here behind the studio and we all watched them and the whole listening audience heard this demonstration.
[34:29.650 --> 34:30.010]  Well, okay.
[34:30.350 --> 34:31.590]  Well, here's the way I look at it, Bernie.
[34:31.930 --> 34:35.130]  Now, what's the exact phrase interfering with what?
[34:36.590 --> 34:37.470]  A licensed...
[34:37.470 --> 34:42.190]  I don't have the rule in front of me, but it's something about a licensed...
[34:42.990 --> 34:45.430]  Excuse me, a licensed radio communications service.
[34:46.250 --> 34:47.750]  A wireless device?
[34:47.990 --> 34:48.850]  Could that be the phrase?
[34:49.110 --> 34:51.390]  A licensed radio communication service.
[34:51.610 --> 34:51.790]  Okay.
[34:52.070 --> 35:01.270]  If it's called Part 15, which is unlicensed radio communication service, like Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, things like that, those services must...
[35:01.270 --> 35:07.870]  They're not really services, but those technologies, the users of those technologies, must accept any interference that's caught.
[35:08.010 --> 35:18.190]  So a Bluetooth jammer or a Wi-Fi jammer wouldn't necessarily be illegal because they're Part 15 services which must put up with any interference.
[35:18.430 --> 35:23.510]  It would be illegal if you were transmitting at a power level that exceeds the Part 15 classification, but...
[35:23.510 --> 35:23.810]  True.
[35:23.810 --> 35:30.830]  What happens if I build some kind of wall that blocks the cell phone signal and encloses you in a room, say like an elevator or something like that?
[35:31.530 --> 35:34.030]  Just because it's not electronic, that's not considered illegal.
[35:34.490 --> 35:34.970]  Right.
[35:35.110 --> 35:43.050]  The FCC only only regulates well, in this area of law, they only regulate emissions that is transmitted signals.
[35:43.530 --> 35:54.750]  And since a good shielded wall like copper shielding also known as a Faraday cage or like those RFID wallets that shield the RFID signals, those don't emit any signals themselves.
[35:55.050 --> 35:58.470]  So therefore, it's not under their purview.
[35:59.170 --> 35:59.910]  Mm-hmm.
[36:00.870 --> 36:06.370]  Well, the way I look at it, my brain is a wireless device of sorts.
[36:06.670 --> 36:17.770]  It's a licensed communication tool and it's being blocked effectively by these other electronic gizmos of people screaming and shouting and giving details of their lives.
[36:18.110 --> 36:20.210]  I hope your brain license is not revoked.
[36:20.210 --> 36:21.150]  I don't know.
[36:21.250 --> 36:22.430]  Maybe it already has been.
[36:22.530 --> 36:22.890]  Who knows?
[36:23.570 --> 36:24.910]  But that's a bit of fun.
[36:24.970 --> 36:27.490]  Now, these devices, you can't really just buy them.
[36:27.990 --> 36:28.870]  You have to...
[36:28.870 --> 36:30.690]  I mean, you can't buy them at the corner store.
[36:30.730 --> 36:32.070]  You have to look on the internet for them.
[36:32.170 --> 36:33.570]  And they are available.
[36:33.750 --> 36:35.190]  I got mine from overseas.
[36:35.730 --> 36:41.910]  And the interesting thing about it was that it was not able to be sold inside the EU, but it could be sold to the United States.
[36:42.850 --> 36:43.170]  Yeah.
[36:43.470 --> 36:44.650]  Even though it came from the EU.
[36:44.790 --> 36:45.430]  It came from the EU.
[36:45.550 --> 36:47.830]  It came from England, but it did not...
[36:47.830 --> 36:53.290]  They have rules that prevent them from selling them there, but apparently not here.
[36:53.370 --> 36:55.310]  So I guess buying and selling them isn't illegal, right?
[36:57.590 --> 36:58.850]  Operating them, certainly.
[36:59.010 --> 37:04.230]  Actually, customs is allowed to confiscate them coming in the border, but they typically don't know what they're doing.
[37:04.370 --> 37:10.210]  If the shipper packages them creatively, it's even harder for customs to notice what they are.
[37:10.650 --> 37:11.690]  Nowhere on this device...
[37:11.690 --> 37:15.210]  I would expect customs to confiscate this because nowhere on this device does it say what it is.
[37:15.330 --> 37:21.730]  It's just an ominous silver-looking electronic device with three antennas on it and an on-off switch and a couple of lights.
[37:22.470 --> 37:23.970]  Oh, you have the three-antenna model?
[37:24.070 --> 37:24.530]  Yes, I do.
[37:26.530 --> 37:31.030]  Now, Bernie, aren't movie theaters and establishments like that using these devices?
[37:31.230 --> 37:33.570]  And now, is that illegal if it's used within your own...
[37:33.570 --> 37:36.410]  I guess, if the range is within your property limits?
[37:36.930 --> 37:37.690]  Nope, you can't.
[37:37.750 --> 37:41.950]  The FCC regulates everything in the United States, so they can...
[37:41.950 --> 37:48.550]  And they would like to regulate things outside the United States, like when they raid pirate radio vessels in international waters, as they've been known to do.
[37:48.790 --> 37:53.090]  But in any case, it doesn't happen with your own property.
[37:53.650 --> 38:00.390]  I'm seeing a bit of a problem with this because let's say that you have Cinemax in your home, right?
[38:00.530 --> 38:10.750]  And you don't want your children to be able to watch those movies they show late at night, so you put a blocker on the TV set or V-chip or whatever to block that signal from getting to your TV set.
[38:10.750 --> 38:17.070]  Are you saying that I do not have the right to block signals coming into my own home to protect children?
[38:17.190 --> 38:18.030]  That's not wireless.
[38:18.910 --> 38:20.130]  Just because it's not wireless?
[38:20.490 --> 38:22.170]  No, satellites coming over the satellite.
[38:22.310 --> 38:22.850]  There, I got you.
[38:23.410 --> 38:25.750]  You would block it at a lesser stage.
[38:25.890 --> 38:27.410]  You wouldn't be blocking it at the RF level.
[38:27.570 --> 38:29.170]  Yeah, you're not blocking it while it's wireless.
[38:29.170 --> 38:31.770]  You're blocking it once it hits the wires in your house.
[38:32.550 --> 38:38.170]  The wires that comprise the receiver for the satellite signal and the wires that go to the television.
[38:38.350 --> 38:47.910]  So by that logic it's okay for me to clip the phone lines of somebody speaking on a payphone and I'm not violating the law because they're annoying me and I clip the wires because it's going over a wire.
[38:48.030 --> 38:49.250]  If it's your payphone, sure.
[38:49.450 --> 38:49.870]  If it's...
[38:49.870 --> 38:52.250]  All this is within your property, yes.
[38:52.890 --> 38:54.930]  We're doing this on-site here at BAI.
[38:55.050 --> 38:56.950]  I'm blocking TV stations at my house.
[38:56.950 --> 39:01.290]  If you have a payphone in your house, which you actually do, you're allowed to clip its wire, sure.
[39:02.270 --> 39:09.150]  Supposing I wanted to block, I wanted to jam Radio Moscow or Radio Havana, rather, only inside my house.
[39:10.330 --> 39:21.090]  I tune to 6,000 kilohertz, which is their frequency on shortwave, and I just want to have a jamming device that prevents that frequency from being received inside my four walls.
[39:21.130 --> 39:22.390]  Are you saying I don't have the right to do that?
[39:22.890 --> 39:23.090]  Nope.
[39:23.490 --> 39:23.810]  Wow.
[39:24.030 --> 39:24.250]  Okay.
[39:24.470 --> 39:26.490]  Well, we certainly do live in Orwellian times.
[39:27.350 --> 39:31.670]  Moving on, though, to more phone-related issues.
[39:31.830 --> 39:34.370]  I understand that, Kevin, you had a problem with your phone company.
[39:34.490 --> 39:37.050]  Oh, just your normal Verizon and shenanigans.
[39:37.190 --> 39:38.050]  Yeah, what did they do to you this time?
[39:38.290 --> 39:42.570]  Double charged me and then told us we didn't pay our bill and tried to make us pay again.
[39:42.610 --> 39:43.930]  Have you guys seen that YouTube?
[39:43.930 --> 39:45.070]  Double charging wasn't enough.
[39:45.190 --> 39:46.490]  No, they wanted triple charges.
[39:46.710 --> 39:46.870]  Wow.
[39:47.330 --> 39:48.690]  Have you guys seen that YouTube?
[39:48.830 --> 39:49.370]  It's not a video.
[39:49.510 --> 39:51.050]  It's an audio clip, but it's hosted on YouTube.
[39:51.650 --> 39:52.350]  It's amazing.
[39:52.550 --> 39:54.830]  And Kevin's nodding his head that he actually saw it.
[39:54.850 --> 39:56.730]  You mean the one everybody sent us a million times because it's on Slashdot?
[39:56.850 --> 39:57.010]  Yep.
[39:57.150 --> 39:57.290]  Yeah.
[39:57.950 --> 40:00.690]  I mean, but it's so good that...
[40:00.690 --> 40:02.790]  Well, since you've started describing it...
[40:02.790 --> 40:05.450]  Yeah, because we don't have it with us, so now you have to tell us.
[40:05.470 --> 40:12.390]  It's much better if you guys listen to it, but basically, it's a case of Verizon not knowing the difference between the units of dollars and the units of cents.
[40:12.930 --> 40:17.570]  And you've got to listen to this clip, and it's phenomenal how incredibly ignorant these people are.
[40:17.570 --> 40:18.610]  How can people listen to it?
[40:19.550 --> 40:21.210]  You can check the Slashdot archives.
[40:21.210 --> 40:24.290]  You can go to YouTube and search for a Verizon...
[40:24.290 --> 40:26.550]  I don't know, Verizon money or something like that.
[40:26.730 --> 40:28.610]  It's some cents or any of those keywords.
[40:29.050 --> 40:31.610]  I mean, it's one of the top-ranked videos now, I think.
[40:31.650 --> 40:33.770]  It's not a video, but it's an audio clip hosted on YouTube.
[40:34.070 --> 40:40.550]  And basically, Verizon was selling data for, I think, 0.0002 cents or something?
[40:40.810 --> 40:43.390]  0.0002 cents is what they were quoting it as.
[40:43.490 --> 40:46.030]  Their systems billed it as 0.002 dollars.
[40:46.230 --> 40:46.370]  Right.
[40:46.370 --> 40:51.010]  And the reps had absolutely no idea that there was actually a difference between those two values.
[40:51.010 --> 40:58.790]  Do you know how many times I see 0.02 cents or the word cents following it when it's obvious that they mean two cents but they're saying 0.02?
[40:58.930 --> 41:00.010]  It's a very common error.
[41:00.290 --> 41:07.630]  I'm glad somebody's calling them on it and they need to make good on it, obviously, even though it probably wasn't their intention.
[41:07.790 --> 41:08.450]  It's pretty amusing.
[41:08.690 --> 41:13.530]  But the folks at Verizon, you know, I have to wonder, look at this magazine they sent me, Verizon Wireless Connect.
[41:13.530 --> 41:22.890]  This is a big glossy publication with all sorts of features and articles and Vcast music helps you stay in tune.
[41:23.090 --> 41:25.570]  VZ, Navigator, all these features that they have.
[41:25.650 --> 41:29.010]  And there's the sleazy looking Verizon guy in the front.
[41:29.210 --> 41:30.190]  He's got the network.
[41:30.330 --> 41:31.430]  He's got the whole network behind him.
[41:31.810 --> 41:36.490]  And I just wonder, all the Verizon bills we pay, is this what they're paying for glossy magazines?
[41:36.730 --> 41:37.690]  Who pays for this?
[41:37.790 --> 41:38.250]  You betcha.
[41:38.250 --> 41:40.450]  Who reads it is probably a better question.
[41:40.610 --> 41:45.010]  Well, I just looked at it and I could not believe how much effort obviously has been put into this.
[41:45.190 --> 41:45.750]  This is...
[41:45.750 --> 41:47.990]  I mean, the same thing, have you ever flown on an airplane?
[41:48.170 --> 41:49.310]  They have a magazine in there.
[41:50.090 --> 41:53.670]  All kinds of people have glossy magazines that you don't really need.
[41:53.770 --> 41:54.190]  That's true.
[41:54.450 --> 41:55.170]  What are you saying?
[41:55.350 --> 41:56.110]  I'm just saying.
[41:57.070 --> 41:57.610]  All right.
[41:57.730 --> 42:02.990]  I'm just saying that publishers of glossy things are not likely to go out of business anytime soon.
[42:03.230 --> 42:03.870]  Oh, okay.
[42:03.910 --> 42:05.050]  Well, that's heartening to hear.
[42:06.410 --> 42:07.370]  So, okay.
[42:07.430 --> 42:08.870]  We also have some updates on radio stuff.
[42:09.030 --> 42:10.170]  And we'd like to do our phone number out.
[42:10.270 --> 42:11.910]  212-209-2950.
[42:12.550 --> 42:13.810]  Redbird, you might be interested in this.
[42:13.890 --> 42:24.590]  The FCC is making changes and also Bernie making changes to the amateur radio service rules that it believes will allow licensees to use the spectrum more efficiently and operate with fewer restrictions.
[42:24.870 --> 42:29.570]  The commission said it amended Part 97 amateur radio service rules to do the following.
[42:29.890 --> 42:38.690]  Revise the operating privileges of operators to allow more spectrum in four authorized amateur service HF bands to be used for voice communications.
[42:38.970 --> 42:42.670]  Permit auxiliary stations to transmit on additional amateur bands.
[42:43.130 --> 42:48.510]  Allow amateur stations to transmit spread spectrum communications on the 1.25-meter band.
[42:48.790 --> 42:54.390]  And permit amateur stations to retransmit communications from the International Space Station.
[42:54.890 --> 43:06.910]  Also, it permits amateur service licensees to designate the amateur radio club to receive their call sign in memory of, I guess, after you die.
[43:07.170 --> 43:24.150]  The commission also now prohibits an applicant from filing more than one application for a specific vanity call sign, eliminates certain restrictions on equipment manufacturers, permits ham stations operating in and around Alaska more flexibility and providing emergency communications,
[43:24.330 --> 43:28.950]  and removes certain restrictions in the license exam system that it said are no longer necessary.
[43:30.050 --> 43:31.350]  So, is this all good news?
[43:31.810 --> 43:32.830]  It's partially good news.
[43:32.930 --> 43:42.630]  I mean, the big thing here is that they located more voice bandwidth in most of the bands and effectively removing some of the CW portion of the band, which is the Morse code section.
[43:42.930 --> 43:44.490]  And I don't know.
[43:44.650 --> 43:49.170]  I mean, I'm a big CW operator when I do get the opportunity to go down to HF.
[43:49.350 --> 43:52.090]  But, you know, progress, I guess.
[43:52.150 --> 43:53.210]  You communicate with Morse code?
[43:53.250 --> 43:53.390]  If you want to call it that.
[43:53.530 --> 43:54.190]  Yeah, I do, actually.
[43:54.350 --> 43:54.810]  It's pretty cool.
[43:54.850 --> 43:55.070]  Why?
[43:55.130 --> 43:56.090]  Why do you communicate with Morse code?
[43:56.090 --> 43:56.550]  What's the point?
[43:56.690 --> 43:57.510]  It's more a hobby.
[43:57.650 --> 43:59.750]  I mean, there's digital modes that are almost as efficient.
[43:59.890 --> 44:02.750]  Not quite as efficient, but CW is probably the most efficient mode.
[44:03.030 --> 44:07.590]  And you can make quite interesting contacts with it.
[44:07.710 --> 44:10.570]  Are there people communicating with Morse code right now?
[44:10.730 --> 44:11.090]  Absolutely.
[44:11.310 --> 44:13.090]  Who don't need... I mean, who do need to.
[44:13.170 --> 44:14.270]  That's the only way they can communicate.
[44:14.430 --> 44:16.290]  Are there people who are doing it not just for a hobby?
[44:16.550 --> 44:19.250]  Probably not the only way to communicate deliberately.
[44:19.250 --> 44:28.290]  But people do go on what are called the expeditions to, you know, remote islands and obscure locations where you normally don't find amateur radio operators.
[44:28.290 --> 44:34.390]  And some of their only method, or maybe occasionally their only method of communication would be CW.
[44:34.610 --> 44:36.510]  And it happens every once in a while.
[44:36.710 --> 44:47.430]  And it's been very, very useful in a lot of emergency situations where operators have had to get out in conditions that weren't favorable for radio communications.
[44:47.430 --> 44:52.170]  And the CW mode being as efficient as it is, was able to get out where some of the voice modes weren't.
[44:52.170 --> 45:00.250]  So it's still very useful, and I still think that it's something that people should learn if they're interested in operating on those bands.
[45:00.370 --> 45:03.410]  But it doesn't seem to be very popular lately.
[45:03.410 --> 45:07.870]  And most likely the FCC at some point is going to eliminate that from the requirement to operate on those bands.
[45:08.130 --> 45:09.450]  Well, that could be what they did eliminate.
[45:09.590 --> 45:11.110]  They said they eliminated some things in the test.
[45:11.290 --> 45:13.710]  I don't think they eliminated CW yet.
[45:13.930 --> 45:14.170]  Okay.
[45:14.770 --> 45:19.910]  Now, something else that is also apparently being phased out are 10 codes that cops use.
[45:19.910 --> 45:22.150]  It's, you know, 10-4 and 10-20 and all that.
[45:23.210 --> 45:27.810]  Basically, it looks like it's over and out, according to this new story for 10 codes.
[45:27.950 --> 45:33.730]  The Virginia State Police and some local police departments are dropping them and switching to plain English.
[45:34.150 --> 45:34.410]  No, no.
[45:34.410 --> 45:37.030]  Well, that's a bit of a challenge for a lot of police officers, I know.
[45:37.310 --> 45:39.470]  But plain English is going to be required now.
[45:39.850 --> 45:45.090]  Among the codes that have been shelved in favor of their English translation are the mundane 10-23.
[45:45.590 --> 45:46.630]  Does anybody know what that means?
[45:48.190 --> 45:48.890]  What was the code again?
[45:49.050 --> 45:49.670]  10-23?
[45:50.310 --> 45:52.730]  Isn't that the livestock on the highway?
[45:52.910 --> 45:54.450]  No, it's not livestock on the highway.
[45:54.710 --> 45:56.570]  It's arrived at the scene.
[45:57.330 --> 45:57.850]  Okay.
[45:58.190 --> 46:00.110]  The blood pumping 10-47.
[46:00.330 --> 46:00.970]  Anyone want to guess?
[46:01.370 --> 46:01.850]  Murder?
[46:02.110 --> 46:03.770]  No, but that's a good guess.
[46:04.010 --> 46:06.530]  Is it for a blood donor?
[46:06.750 --> 46:06.970]  No.
[46:07.130 --> 46:08.610]  It's chase in progress.
[46:09.890 --> 46:12.030]  And, okay, 10-82.
[46:12.210 --> 46:13.370]  Does anybody know what 10-82 is?
[46:13.530 --> 46:13.930]  Not Kevin.
[46:14.310 --> 46:15.650]  Accidental possession shooting?
[46:15.890 --> 46:16.190]  No.
[46:16.290 --> 46:16.730]  Dead body.
[46:17.230 --> 46:20.070]  So if you find a 10-82, you found a dead body.
[46:20.190 --> 46:20.630]  But no more.
[46:20.790 --> 46:22.430]  You will not have to say you found a dead body.
[46:23.490 --> 46:24.330]  Is this a good idea?
[46:24.330 --> 46:36.410]  The change comes as the Homeland Security Department, and that should tell you whether or not it's a good idea, presses local law enforcement authorities to improve communication so that different agencies can work together without confusion during an emergency.
[46:36.410 --> 46:43.870]  The 10-code system dates to the 1920s when police radios had only one channel, and officers needed to relay information succinctly.
[46:44.050 --> 46:47.030]  But over time, departments developed their own 10-codes.
[46:48.010 --> 46:50.530]  So, like, for instance, in Virginia.
[46:50.610 --> 46:55.630]  For a Virginia state trooper, a 10-50 means an auto accident, but in Maryland it means officer down.
[46:55.770 --> 46:57.790]  So those are things that you probably don't want to confuse.
[46:58.310 --> 47:10.470]  I don't know that this is necessarily actually a good idea because, I mean, police officers in the local municipalities, anyway, that I listen to, have become relatively efficient in using these codes to communicate, and it keeps transmissions short and,
[47:10.470 --> 47:15.110]  you know, keeps the bandwidth open for other emergencies or other orders and whatnot.
[47:15.250 --> 47:15.490]  I suppose.
[47:15.490 --> 47:19.370]  And usually these 10-codes are published, by the way, by scanner enthusiasts on their webpages.
[47:19.530 --> 47:20.650]  You can find them all over the place.
[47:20.650 --> 47:27.610]  It would all make sense if they used the same 10-codes, but when they start using different 10-codes for states that border each other, then I think it starts to lose its effectiveness.
[47:27.890 --> 47:37.710]  No, but it's not like the local police are using the same frequencies as other police departments, and there are frequencies that you would switch to if you had to cooperate with other departments.
[47:37.910 --> 47:48.670]  And so, you know, like, for instance, in New Jersey, they have the state police emergency network that they would use for inter-department communications, and they, you know, at that point you would know not to use the same 10-codes if the other department doesn't understand.
[47:48.670 --> 47:52.430]  There's no reason why you have to have different 10 codes when you're basically dealing with the same line of work.
[47:52.510 --> 47:54.910]  No, you could probably, you know, standardize them.
[47:54.970 --> 47:55.450]  That would be nice.
[47:55.490 --> 47:56.890]  But at this point, I think it's...
[47:56.890 --> 47:57.570]  At this point, I think they...
[47:57.570 --> 47:58.290]  If it's efficient...
[47:58.290 --> 48:01.810]  I think they blew it and now it's going to turn into English because they had different 10 codes.
[48:01.930 --> 48:02.030]  Jim?
[48:02.530 --> 48:04.510]  Well, this is a bad idea and I'll tell you why.
[48:05.490 --> 48:10.910]  I have some familiarity with what's known as the 12 code, which is what the Transit Authority uses.
[48:10.950 --> 48:11.830]  They use 12 codes?
[48:12.250 --> 48:15.030]  12-1, 12-2 through 12-12, I think it was.
[48:15.090 --> 48:15.210]  Wow.
[48:15.410 --> 48:16.090]  I didn't know that.
[48:16.090 --> 48:19.810]  And a 12-2, if I recall correctly, is a smoke condition.
[48:20.450 --> 48:24.870]  Smoke at some location, perhaps with a fire, perhaps not attached.
[48:25.130 --> 48:32.450]  Now, you don't want the conductor and the motorman to discuss a 12-2 under the operating car and as opposed...
[48:32.450 --> 48:37.410]  You want them to discuss a 12-2 under the operating car rather than we have a smoke condition under the operating car.
[48:37.550 --> 48:40.970]  You don't want to get panic going before you have to and hopefully never.
[48:41.950 --> 48:47.790]  It's much better to have it somewhat guided until you decide what you want to do.
[48:48.490 --> 48:49.910]  Security through obscurity, it sounds like.
[48:49.930 --> 48:52.010]  Yeah, it's never really been an effective method to...
[48:52.010 --> 48:53.970]  If most people don't know it, it's better than everyone...
[48:54.330 --> 48:55.570]  Keep the masses ignorant.
[48:55.830 --> 48:56.610]  That's your solution.
[48:56.930 --> 48:57.170]  No, no, no.
[48:57.550 --> 48:57.790]  No.
[48:58.010 --> 49:03.890]  I would much rather my motorman doesn't say there's a fire under the first car than saying there's a 10-2 at the first car.
[49:03.890 --> 49:05.410]  No, he's not saying it to the people on the train.
[49:05.410 --> 49:06.350]  He's saying it over the radio.
[49:06.350 --> 49:08.270]  The people listening are people at home with scanners.
[49:08.790 --> 49:10.510]  But if he says it over...
[49:12.010 --> 49:15.050]  He's audible for the first couple of rows in the first car.
[49:15.210 --> 49:21.490]  If he says it over the intercom to the conductor, he's audible in the middle car and possibly in the end car.
[49:21.490 --> 49:22.050]  And you know what?
[49:22.090 --> 49:24.550]  They will hear the fear in his voice no matter what he's saying.
[49:25.010 --> 49:27.190]  And do those people not see the smoke, by the way?
[49:27.350 --> 49:29.130]  Yeah, it's also the issue of the smoke.
[49:30.030 --> 49:34.450]  I've never heard fear in the voice of a motorman reporting a 10-2.
[49:34.630 --> 49:35.990]  Of course, I've only been on a train...
[49:35.990 --> 49:36.910]  Well, then you haven't lived.
[49:36.910 --> 49:37.570]  ...there are four times.
[49:37.710 --> 49:38.570]  All right, let's take some phone calls.
[49:38.650 --> 49:40.030]  212-209-2900.
[49:40.130 --> 49:41.550]  See what our listeners have to say about all this.
[49:42.030 --> 49:42.570]  Good evening.
[49:42.710 --> 49:43.210]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:43.910 --> 49:44.730]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[49:44.990 --> 49:45.310]  How are you doing?
[49:45.790 --> 49:46.290]  I'm doing well.
[49:46.310 --> 49:46.870]  How are you doing today?
[49:47.030 --> 49:47.270]  Fine.
[49:47.310 --> 49:47.790]  What's on your mind?
[49:48.810 --> 49:50.230]  You know, I'm not listening to the show right now.
[49:50.410 --> 49:56.310]  I've written you a letter before into your show, and we have similar cases going.
[49:56.310 --> 50:06.430]  And I just want to say to everybody that they should, you know, stand up for their civil liberties and not bow down to what's going on these days.
[50:06.530 --> 50:26.070]  I think I sent you some pictures a little bit back from an incident with LAPD, and I can't talk about it that much, but I just want to keep up the good work in introducing all these incidents and keeping it out there in the public eye, because you can't just let it happen.
[50:26.650 --> 50:27.210]  Right on.
[50:27.430 --> 50:27.890]  Thanks for calling.
[50:28.470 --> 50:29.150]  Hey, thank you, Emmanuel.
[50:29.330 --> 50:29.490]  All right.
[50:29.550 --> 50:29.830]  Take care.
[50:30.990 --> 50:31.830]  And good evening.
[50:31.990 --> 50:32.450]  You're on the radio.
[50:33.550 --> 50:33.910]  Hello?
[50:34.210 --> 50:34.750]  Yes, go ahead.
[50:35.530 --> 50:36.270]  Am I online?
[50:36.430 --> 50:37.630]  You're on the radio right now.
[50:37.950 --> 50:38.310]  Okay.
[50:38.670 --> 50:44.870]  I'm in the car right now, and I have... you guys seem to be talking about Verizon a lot, so I want to add a little bit of insult to the injury.
[50:45.190 --> 50:45.490]  Okay.
[50:45.910 --> 50:46.570]  Insult to injury.
[50:46.570 --> 50:47.490]  I like the sound of that.
[50:49.610 --> 50:51.930]  I used to be a Verizon customer.
[50:52.730 --> 50:55.010]  And recently, I'm from New Jersey.
[50:55.010 --> 50:57.450]  I moved to Optimum Cable.
[50:57.790 --> 51:08.670]  I'm not saying that I got a much better service, but what happened is I have the Verizon disconnected completely from my house, including the wire, because I changed the siding of the house.
[51:08.670 --> 51:20.470]  Then down the road, that wire was hanging down the pole in front of my house, so I called Verizon to come and pick up their stuff, basically, because it becomes a danger, in my view.
[51:21.090 --> 51:23.230]  And Verizon said, well, we don't do that.
[51:23.230 --> 51:24.150]  You're not our customer.
[51:25.450 --> 51:27.990]  So they won't pick up their trash that they leave behind?
[51:28.610 --> 51:28.750]  No.
[51:29.190 --> 51:31.570]  So I didn't know what to do.
[51:31.750 --> 51:36.950]  They said, call the company that is providing you with service now, which is completely ridiculous.
[51:37.150 --> 51:41.230]  I mean, why would Optimum pick up Verizon's stuff?
[51:41.530 --> 51:48.250]  But I called the town and the police, and they didn't do anything, so there's still wire hanging down.
[51:48.250 --> 51:54.470]  So I wonder if there is some sort of legislation that deals with this issue that basically picked me up.
[51:54.590 --> 51:56.990]  I mean, someone might hang themselves on that wire.
[51:57.150 --> 51:57.390]  Wow.
[51:57.470 --> 52:01.350]  That would certainly draw attention to it if someone did that, but let's not encourage anyone.
[52:01.350 --> 52:02.190]  Jim, you have a solution?
[52:02.250 --> 52:07.690]  I have a suggestion, which is essentially discover if that wire actually gives you a dial tone.
[52:07.790 --> 52:17.470]  And if it does, you immediately send certified registered letters to your town, Verizon, Optimum, everybody saying, this wire gives a dial tone, you know, please remove it, somebody.
[52:17.930 --> 52:21.230]  And then you put a phone on it, and you put up a sign that says...
[52:21.230 --> 52:21.930]  What, hanging off the pole?
[52:22.070 --> 52:22.830]  Free phone calls.
[52:22.890 --> 52:23.290]  Yeah, sure.
[52:23.330 --> 52:24.150]  This isn't Green Acres.
[52:24.250 --> 52:24.550]  Come on.
[52:24.650 --> 52:25.490]  I have a better solution.
[52:25.550 --> 52:25.690]  Yeah.
[52:25.830 --> 52:26.690]  You can cut the wire.
[52:26.810 --> 52:31.970]  If it's just a phone wire, there's no hazardous voltage that's going to affect you if you cut the wire.
[52:31.970 --> 52:32.570]  You can just cut it.
[52:32.630 --> 52:34.410]  How high up does he have to climb to cut it?
[52:35.610 --> 52:41.590]  Cut it at the pole and then staple it to the pole so it's not, you know, thrashing around in the wind, and you're good.
[52:41.690 --> 52:43.050]  How do these solutions sound to you?
[52:43.430 --> 52:44.310]  It can be dangerous.
[52:44.890 --> 52:45.070]  Yeah.
[52:45.070 --> 52:46.590]  I'm being too clever to know the pole.
[52:46.590 --> 52:48.010]  No, don't climb the pole.
[52:48.210 --> 52:48.950]  See what you're doing?
[52:49.250 --> 52:50.590]  No, we don't want people climbing poles.
[52:50.770 --> 52:51.530]  I think Bernie had a comment.
[52:51.750 --> 52:52.270]  Bernie, yes?
[52:52.450 --> 53:04.890]  I was just going to say, if the phone line happens to be ringing, if someone's calling the number, it's an active line, and you cut it at that moment, you could get a nasty shock if your fingers were in the way.
[53:05.030 --> 53:06.890]  And if you're climbing up a pole, you don't want a nasty shock.
[53:06.890 --> 53:10.450]  It's 90 volts at 20 cycles, which is enough to ring one of those old mechanical bells.
[53:11.350 --> 53:11.690]  Right.
[53:11.990 --> 53:16.810]  I would continue making a nuisance of yourself to these people and letting everybody know about it.
[53:16.890 --> 53:17.590]  It's an issue.
[53:17.690 --> 53:18.290]  It's an important issue.
[53:18.370 --> 53:18.850]  And you're right.
[53:18.970 --> 53:19.730]  It should be taken care of.
[53:20.230 --> 53:25.910]  You know, in this era, I mean, it can make my life miserable if something happens.
[53:26.030 --> 53:28.790]  And there's kids running down the street all the time.
[53:29.070 --> 53:29.450]  Mm-hmm.
[53:30.630 --> 53:33.110]  I mean, we don't want anything to happen to anyone.
[53:33.250 --> 53:34.030]  Yeah, it's a hazard.
[53:34.150 --> 53:34.750]  It's on your property.
[53:34.890 --> 53:37.930]  You technically could be liable for it if they don't take care of it themselves.
[53:38.370 --> 53:40.370]  Anyway, thanks for the insight on that.
[53:40.470 --> 53:41.210]  It's an interesting story.
[53:41.570 --> 53:42.730]  Let's go to another phone call.
[53:43.370 --> 53:44.150]  And good evening.
[53:44.270 --> 53:44.750]  You're on the radio.
[53:46.390 --> 53:46.970]  Speak up.
[53:47.550 --> 53:48.150]  Oh, yes.
[53:48.730 --> 53:51.510]  I don't know if you've been listening to CNN lately, but...
[53:51.510 --> 53:51.790]  Hello?
[53:52.310 --> 53:52.670]  Yes.
[53:52.850 --> 53:54.070]  It was nice hearing your voice again, Rebel.
[53:54.450 --> 53:55.850]  But no, you don't listen to CNN.
[53:55.850 --> 53:56.530]  You watch CNN.
[53:56.530 --> 53:57.330]  It's a TV station.
[53:57.590 --> 53:58.110]  Good evening.
[53:58.290 --> 53:58.890]  You're on the radio.
[53:59.730 --> 54:01.110]  Yeah, CNN had a...
[54:01.110 --> 54:02.250]  How did you...
[54:02.250 --> 54:03.210]  It's just deja vu.
[54:03.390 --> 54:04.770]  You're on two lines at once.
[54:04.930 --> 54:06.030]  There must be something wrong with my head.
[54:06.170 --> 54:07.330]  If only I had a blocker for that.
[54:07.690 --> 54:08.150]  Good evening.
[54:08.350 --> 54:09.010]  You're on the radio.
[54:09.550 --> 54:09.790]  Yep.
[54:10.550 --> 54:13.150]  Okay, do you understand why I keep hanging up on you now?
[54:13.230 --> 54:13.890]  This is why.
[54:14.030 --> 54:14.690]  This is why.
[54:14.790 --> 54:20.310]  For people who think I'm being unfair now and just hanging up for the first time, this has been going on for decades, literally.
[54:20.350 --> 54:21.470]  I'm not kidding about that either.
[54:21.550 --> 54:22.270]  It's been going on for decades.
[54:22.810 --> 54:25.010]  Please, folks, 212-209-2900.
[54:25.190 --> 54:26.910]  Don't let one person get all the lines.
[54:26.910 --> 54:27.710]  That's not fair.
[54:28.230 --> 54:31.130]  All the comments.
[54:31.330 --> 54:32.890]  Okay, that lit up the phone lines.
[54:33.010 --> 54:34.670]  But at least two of them must be him.
[54:34.810 --> 54:35.930]  So pick a number, please.
[54:36.490 --> 54:36.730]  Six.
[54:36.970 --> 54:37.290]  Six?
[54:38.530 --> 54:39.070]  Six it is.
[54:39.130 --> 54:39.370]  Good evening.
[54:39.450 --> 54:39.850]  You're on the air.
[54:41.390 --> 54:41.910]  Speak up.
[54:43.150 --> 54:45.050]  All right, you got somebody who's shy now, Jim.
[54:45.110 --> 54:46.410]  All right, let's go to eight.
[54:46.790 --> 54:47.270]  Good evening.
[54:47.410 --> 54:47.830]  You're on the radio.
[54:49.430 --> 54:49.990]  Speak up.
[54:50.490 --> 54:51.450]  Hey, how are you doing?
[54:51.570 --> 54:52.190]  My name is Rob.
[54:52.370 --> 54:55.870]  I'm an attorney, and I specialize in communications law, and I'm enjoying your show very much.
[54:55.950 --> 54:57.290]  Uh-oh, you're not going to sue us, are you?
[54:57.930 --> 54:58.870]  No, gosh, no.
[54:59.010 --> 55:03.850]  I wasn't even going to tell Michael Powell when I heard somebody maybe utter a slight three- or four-letter word there a little while ago.
[55:04.230 --> 55:05.370]  A three- or four-letter word?
[55:05.450 --> 55:06.010]  Who did that?
[55:06.810 --> 55:07.510]  Oh, I don't know.
[55:07.510 --> 55:12.410]  Well, I'm new to the area, so it was like an off-handed thing, which I think we're frequently doing.
[55:12.490 --> 55:12.770]  Oh.
[55:13.090 --> 55:14.150]  I'm not even thinking about it.
[55:14.350 --> 55:14.710]  Okay.
[55:14.950 --> 55:16.270]  I'll have to listen to the transcript.
[55:16.410 --> 55:16.970]  But what's on your mind?
[55:17.650 --> 55:21.710]  I was very much enjoying the conversation you're having about these jammers.
[55:21.870 --> 55:29.490]  I was looking at those online recently because they've become very, very popular to prevent IEDs from exploding next to the troops.
[55:29.690 --> 55:30.190]  Ah, yes.
[55:30.730 --> 55:31.530]  Yes, that's true.
[55:31.710 --> 55:36.070]  I was thinking about how useful those would be here, say, in the back of my car.
[55:36.070 --> 55:43.410]  Next time I get pulled over with a suspended driver's license by a police officer, he wouldn't be able to call in my license plate or my driver's license and all the other stuff.
[55:43.450 --> 55:45.250]  Well, they don't use cell phones to do that.
[55:45.310 --> 55:48.390]  They use their own frequencies, and I don't think these things are effective for those.
[55:48.510 --> 55:49.570]  And that's what I was going to ask.
[55:49.730 --> 55:56.130]  Is the cell phone frequency range actually the most common frequency range in use for IEDs?
[55:56.210 --> 55:58.230]  I mean, are cell phones that commonly used to detonate?
[55:58.350 --> 55:59.670]  Well, they can be used to detonate.
[55:59.790 --> 56:03.930]  I mean, cell phones, one way of detonating explosive devices with a cell phone that's happened in the past.
[56:03.930 --> 56:06.030]  All these things are incredibly low-tech.
[56:06.230 --> 56:07.710]  They use doorbell ringers.
[56:08.630 --> 56:10.630]  Some of these jammers are also low-tech.
[56:10.850 --> 56:14.610]  They just broadcast noise across every single conceivable spectrum.
[56:14.790 --> 56:18.630]  And I think that's the kind the government uses when they want to block people from communicating.
[56:18.850 --> 56:21.010]  I believe the authorities in London said they would use that.
[56:21.050 --> 56:23.030]  If there was a terrorist attack, they'd block all the cell phones.
[56:23.230 --> 56:26.710]  They were saying that in New York during the Republican Convention they were going to block cell phones.
[56:26.810 --> 56:27.590]  Bernie, I think you had a point?
[56:28.110 --> 56:34.250]  Yeah, I was going to say the IED jammers that are used by military in Iraq are a broad spectrum.
[56:34.450 --> 56:35.730]  They just jam all kinds of frequencies.
[56:35.970 --> 56:41.210]  So, yes, one of those here would block police communication, so that's another reason they're illegal.
[56:41.210 --> 56:46.190]  But here in Philadelphia, the police use cell phone frequencies for their mobile data terminals.
[56:46.850 --> 56:47.290]  Oh.
[56:47.870 --> 56:49.950]  They're actually over the cellular network.
[56:50.110 --> 57:01.270]  So if someone had a cell phone jammer while they were standing near a police car that was trying to look up some information on their mobile data terminals, suddenly that mobile data terminal wouldn't be working anymore.
[57:01.450 --> 57:01.810]  Interesting.
[57:02.130 --> 57:02.350]  Okay.
[57:02.450 --> 57:04.510]  Well, that's something to think about.
[57:04.850 --> 57:06.870]  I just want to understand.
[57:07.210 --> 57:08.690]  Carl, you said you're an attorney, right?
[57:09.090 --> 57:09.670]  Yes, I am.
[57:09.770 --> 57:12.670]  Maybe you shouldn't say on the air that you're driving with a suspended license.
[57:12.710 --> 57:15.870]  It doesn't seem like the sort of thing I'd want from my attorneys.
[57:16.530 --> 57:17.530]  Hi, my name is Rob.
[57:17.670 --> 57:20.190]  I drive with a suspended license infrequently, but sometimes.
[57:20.450 --> 57:20.810]  Okay.
[57:20.910 --> 57:21.890]  Well, I admire your courage.
[57:22.270 --> 57:24.210]  We're going to have to leave it at that, though, because we're out of time.
[57:24.210 --> 57:26.390]  But a lot of interesting points brought up tonight.
[57:26.730 --> 57:30.990]  And our address, as always, remains OTH at 2600.com.
[57:31.250 --> 57:36.930]  Please write to us with any sort of feedback or questions or information that you might wish to share with us.
[57:37.350 --> 57:39.710]  We'll be back again next week, same time, same place.
[57:39.830 --> 57:41.430]  Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show coming up.
[57:41.530 --> 57:42.530]  Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[57:42.710 --> 57:43.530]  Have yourselves a good night.
[01:00:06.910 --> 01:00:08.730]  Yeah, man.
[01:00:38.330 --> 01:00:43.230]  Hey, you're listening to WBAI, New York 99.5 FM.
[01:00:43.230 --> 01:00:43.370]  let's see here.
[01:00:43.450 --> 01:00:43.510]  How to receive awesome sound at someъ Evabalist.
[01:00:43.510 --> 01:00:43.530]  So, see, wait where we're growing and whatever we're being able to do.
[01:00:43.550 --> 01:00:43.570]  We're going to get 40 % of them.
[01:00:43.830 --> 01:00:43.930]  Every time we see what we're doing.