[00:00.000 --> 00:05.900]  More than 400 educators from inside and outside New York City have registered for this weekend's conference.
[00:06.420 --> 00:10.000]  The conference is being held at Long Island University in Brooklyn.
[00:10.420 --> 00:14.540]  Go to www.radicalmath.org for details.
[00:15.420 --> 00:18.660]  I'm David Enders in New York for FSRN.
[00:19.660 --> 00:22.180]  You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
[00:22.340 --> 00:26.760]  From Pacifica Station, KPFK, and Los Angeles, this is Our Abogado.
[00:28.260 --> 00:31.520]  And this is Radio Station WBAI in New York.
[00:31.700 --> 00:33.060]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:33.340 --> 00:35.500]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:39.890 --> 01:41.770]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:41.770 --> 01:42.950]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:44.090 --> 01:47.490]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[01:47.670 --> 01:50.850]  This week, joined over there by Jim.
[01:51.230 --> 01:51.670]  Hello.
[01:52.350 --> 01:52.910]  Redbird.
[01:53.170 --> 01:53.550]  Good evening.
[01:54.330 --> 01:54.890]  Arseny.
[01:55.010 --> 01:55.210]  Hello.
[01:55.550 --> 01:55.970]  Mike.
[01:56.330 --> 01:56.490]  Hi.
[01:57.090 --> 01:59.030]  And over in the far corner, not Kevin.
[01:59.330 --> 01:59.770]  Hello.
[02:00.490 --> 02:02.170]  Down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[02:03.010 --> 02:04.870]  Greetings from Philadelphia, and welcome back.
[02:05.170 --> 02:05.910]  Thank you very much.
[02:05.910 --> 02:06.250]  Thank you.
[02:06.530 --> 02:10.730]  What are all those bandages and scratches and, like, marks all over your head?
[02:10.790 --> 02:11.910]  What happened to your hair?
[02:11.950 --> 02:12.450]  No, listen.
[02:13.170 --> 02:14.390]  All kidding aside here.
[02:14.610 --> 02:15.870]  No, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[02:16.050 --> 02:16.990]  You can't play it off.
[02:17.090 --> 02:17.350]  It's kidding.
[02:17.770 --> 02:23.930]  The only injury I have from my travel, and this is something that I'm surprised you haven't asked me about, is all the coffee that's over me.
[02:24.530 --> 02:24.890]  Coffee...
[02:24.890 --> 02:26.730]  They spilled hot coffee on you as well?
[02:26.770 --> 02:31.770]  Hot, boiling coffee all over me, and I didn't get a chance to find a clean pair of pants, so I still have that.
[02:31.850 --> 02:33.670]  The shirt was completely a lost cause.
[02:34.250 --> 02:35.610]  But do you want to hear the story of the coffee?
[02:35.710 --> 02:36.390]  Because it's a good story.
[02:36.410 --> 02:37.590]  I can tell you the story of the coffee.
[02:37.710 --> 02:38.010]  Go ahead.
[02:38.110 --> 02:39.690]  And then the whips and the chains and everything.
[02:39.690 --> 02:41.570]  Well, I don't know if we have time for all this, but...
[02:41.570 --> 02:42.970]  Who cares about his personal life?
[02:43.550 --> 02:43.830]  Personal...
[02:43.830 --> 02:44.930]  Yeah, all that aside.
[02:45.230 --> 02:45.930]  I'm missing a finger.
[02:46.410 --> 02:54.050]  Listen, just because I was in North Korea last week does not mean that anything bad happened to me, and I was.
[02:54.730 --> 03:01.990]  As you guys heard, I was in North Korea last week, in Beijing the week before that, and actually Beijing a couple of days ago.
[03:02.110 --> 03:07.490]  Technically, I think I was in Beijing yesterday, but that's, if you count, like, you know, sleep cycles and things like that.
[03:08.590 --> 03:11.570]  So this would explain the decoration in the studio.
[03:12.710 --> 03:14.870]  Well, I have the North Korean flag hanging on the microphone.
[03:15.030 --> 03:16.350]  I hope nobody's offended by that.
[03:16.490 --> 03:19.010]  It's just that how often do you get a North Korean flag to start with?
[03:19.550 --> 03:26.290]  But if there's any right-wing media out there that needs pictures to prove that we're a bunch of lefties up here, maybe this will be it.
[03:26.310 --> 03:26.670]  I don't know.
[03:26.770 --> 03:30.230]  I don't really think so, but yeah, the North Korean flag on the microphone.
[03:30.310 --> 03:31.130]  Anybody have a problem with that?
[03:31.390 --> 03:32.610]  Then turn your radio off.
[03:32.730 --> 03:33.310]  Yeah, go ahead.
[03:33.950 --> 03:38.750]  Well, all they have to do is just not turn the video part of their radio on, and they'll be safe.
[03:39.010 --> 03:40.250]  Yeah, but we're telling you it's there.
[03:40.250 --> 03:42.070]  So you have to imagine it in your head.
[03:43.350 --> 03:46.970]  So yeah, and I'm sick too, in case you can't tell.
[03:47.090 --> 03:48.770]  I got sick on the airplane.
[03:49.050 --> 03:51.010]  I was perfectly healthy getting onto the airplane.
[03:51.110 --> 03:51.970]  I'll get into that in a second.
[03:52.170 --> 03:53.690]  I made a stupid mistake, all right?
[03:53.730 --> 03:59.170]  My stupid mistake was that when I got back to Beijing, I didn't look at my return itinerary.
[03:59.310 --> 04:03.970]  And I just somehow in my head, I got it into my mind that I was going back on Tuesday.
[04:04.570 --> 04:06.750]  And in actuality, I was going back on Monday.
[04:06.750 --> 04:10.450]  And that's a fact that I found out about Monday evening when I was meeting a friend.
[04:10.590 --> 04:15.090]  I just said, okay, before I go out, I'm just going to make sure that my flight is at this particular time tomorrow.
[04:15.350 --> 04:18.630]  And I looked at the thing, and I saw the date Monday instead of Tuesday.
[04:18.630 --> 04:20.550]  I'm like, holy gosh.
[04:22.430 --> 04:23.330]  That's not good.
[04:23.370 --> 04:24.170]  Is that what you said?
[04:24.270 --> 04:24.790]  Holy gosh.
[04:24.930 --> 04:25.710]  Yeah, word for word.
[04:27.310 --> 04:28.930]  And, you know, I didn't know what to do.
[04:29.290 --> 04:30.310]  I really didn't know what to do.
[04:30.330 --> 04:31.410]  I've never missed a flight before.
[04:31.690 --> 04:33.210]  I've been very good with that kind of thing.
[04:34.690 --> 04:37.130]  Let me ask you guys, what do you do if you miss a flight?
[04:37.250 --> 04:37.830]  Does anybody know?
[04:38.070 --> 04:39.990]  I wish Lin was here, because he knows a lot about airplanes.
[04:40.630 --> 04:41.270]  You beg.
[04:41.470 --> 04:41.910]  You beg?
[04:42.030 --> 04:42.390]  Yeah, you beg.
[04:42.470 --> 04:42.890]  What else?
[04:43.050 --> 04:45.030]  Can they just not let you on at all?
[04:45.610 --> 04:46.130]  They can.
[04:46.350 --> 04:46.610]  Uh-huh.
[04:46.770 --> 04:47.930]  And here I am in Beijing.
[04:47.930 --> 04:49.810]  I've got a visa that expires in a few days.
[04:49.810 --> 04:50.770]  I have to be back here.
[04:51.810 --> 04:55.350]  And, you know, I was really kind of sick of being away, because I just wanted to get back.
[04:55.470 --> 04:56.150]  I had a lot of things to do.
[04:56.870 --> 04:59.710]  So I called the number, which was in the United States.
[04:59.710 --> 05:02.510]  Actually, it was in 702 Area Code, which was Las Vegas.
[05:02.650 --> 05:06.710]  That should have keyed me off right away that something was not quite right with this.
[05:06.950 --> 05:08.830]  I bought the ticket directly through Air China.
[05:08.990 --> 05:13.110]  One of the problems I had originally was that they never sent me an email to confirm.
[05:13.270 --> 05:14.530]  So I printed it out from the webpage.
[05:14.770 --> 05:19.010]  And when I called them a couple of months later to say, hey, you know, can you just send me some kind of verification?
[05:19.010 --> 05:20.150]  It still didn't go through.
[05:20.490 --> 05:24.250]  And I finally was able to find the piece of email from them in my spam filter.
[05:25.030 --> 05:33.070]  Apparently, they were, like, forging a from address or something in such a way that my spam filter was catching it and giving it a spam assassin rating of 25.6 or something.
[05:33.790 --> 05:36.390]  Yeah, so I never got that.
[05:37.390 --> 05:38.570]  And so I called them.
[05:38.690 --> 05:40.210]  And I just said, look, I did something stupid.
[05:40.370 --> 05:41.350]  I put all the blame on myself.
[05:41.450 --> 05:42.170]  Maybe that was a mistake.
[05:42.930 --> 05:43.850]  I missed the flight.
[05:43.890 --> 05:44.610]  What do I do?
[05:45.650 --> 05:48.670]  And they tried for a little while to figure something out.
[05:48.750 --> 05:49.430]  And they said, you know what?
[05:49.470 --> 05:50.230]  We can't help you with this.
[05:50.270 --> 05:51.570]  You're going to have to talk directly to Air China.
[05:52.130 --> 05:54.470]  And I was like, wait, who am I talking to now then?
[05:54.470 --> 05:55.570]  I thought you're Air China.
[05:55.710 --> 05:56.230]  It's on the website.
[05:56.370 --> 05:56.910]  This is the number.
[05:57.590 --> 06:01.590]  And apparently, they're just some kind of agency that gives tickets for Air China.
[06:01.750 --> 06:06.710]  They're not really Air China, even though they show up on their webpage, on the Air China webpage, which is hard enough to find.
[06:06.790 --> 06:08.230]  You know how I found the Air China homepage?
[06:08.630 --> 06:09.630]  I went to Wikipedia.
[06:10.170 --> 06:13.330]  And then under Affiliated Links, I clicked on it there.
[06:13.450 --> 06:15.230]  If you search for it in Google, you will never find it.
[06:16.130 --> 06:19.950]  So anyway, I asked, okay, so who do I call?
[06:20.030 --> 06:20.530]  Who do I talk to?
[06:20.750 --> 06:23.830]  And he gave me a number that I could call, an 800 number.
[06:23.950 --> 06:25.190]  I said, look, you know, that's not going to work for me.
[06:25.230 --> 06:25.950]  I'm in China.
[06:25.950 --> 06:27.910]  I can't call an 800 number from China.
[06:28.610 --> 06:30.550]  And he's like, sir, that's all the only number I have.
[06:31.130 --> 06:32.770]  That doesn't do me any good at all.
[06:33.090 --> 06:35.950]  Is there any way you can actually help me with my problem here?
[06:36.030 --> 06:36.450]  And there wasn't.
[06:36.530 --> 06:37.770]  There was no way they could help.
[06:38.290 --> 06:42.650]  So I had to have a friend three-way me from the States to call this 800 number.
[06:42.690 --> 06:42.970]  Wait a minute.
[06:43.050 --> 06:44.410]  There's no way you can call an 800 number from China?
[06:44.410 --> 06:45.050]  Not from China.
[06:45.130 --> 06:45.890]  Wait, I don't understand.
[06:45.890 --> 06:47.210]  You're in China, right?
[06:47.210 --> 06:47.370]  Yeah.
[06:47.550 --> 06:49.370]  Air China is headquartered in China.
[06:49.510 --> 06:49.950]  Well, yes.
[06:50.050 --> 06:51.190]  But keep in mind, this was nighttime.
[06:51.570 --> 06:52.270]  This was nighttime.
[06:52.810 --> 06:55.230]  But I bet they have a 24-hour operation.
[06:55.230 --> 06:56.190]  Oh, you would bet that, huh?
[06:56.190 --> 06:57.170]  You'd lose that bet.
[06:57.270 --> 06:58.090]  I'll tell you that right now.
[06:58.190 --> 06:59.250]  You'd definitely lose that bet.
[06:59.610 --> 07:03.530]  Not only would they not be open, but it'd be very hard to find a number and to get through to somebody.
[07:03.630 --> 07:05.510]  First of all, I asked if they had a number in China.
[07:05.670 --> 07:08.170]  And the guy who answered the phone in Vegas had no idea.
[07:08.250 --> 07:09.150]  He didn't have a number.
[07:09.390 --> 07:10.610]  So if he doesn't have a number...
[07:11.190 --> 07:12.210]  I also tried...
[07:12.210 --> 07:14.030]  My hotel had a special little travel desk.
[07:14.550 --> 07:15.370]  And I went up to them.
[07:15.470 --> 07:16.970]  First of all, I asked, do you speak English?
[07:17.030 --> 07:17.490]  They said, yes.
[07:17.850 --> 07:19.510]  I said, look, I missed my flight.
[07:19.870 --> 07:21.510]  I'd like to be able to reschedule this.
[07:21.510 --> 07:24.150]  But I don't know who I was supposed to talk to at Air China.
[07:24.310 --> 07:27.510]  Is there any way you can call Air China and find out what I have to do in order to get this flight?
[07:28.050 --> 07:29.130]  And they said, what?
[07:30.110 --> 07:31.710]  They didn't understand a single word I said.
[07:32.070 --> 07:34.970]  You could have just asked very simply for the phone number to Air China.
[07:34.990 --> 07:35.790]  I tried that too.
[07:35.930 --> 07:37.350]  They didn't understand anything I said.
[07:37.730 --> 07:40.150]  I don't understand why they said yes when I asked if they spoke English.
[07:40.350 --> 07:44.650]  In fact, in China, lots of times this happens where you think you're going to do something extremely easy.
[07:44.790 --> 07:47.410]  You point to an item on the menu, all right?
[07:47.410 --> 07:48.890]  And you say, I'd like this.
[07:49.010 --> 07:50.210]  And they don't understand what you mean.
[07:50.570 --> 07:51.470]  It's really weird.
[07:52.230 --> 07:53.850]  We had a lot of experiences like that.
[07:54.390 --> 07:59.270]  So anyway, so I got the 800 number and my friend connected me to it.
[07:59.330 --> 08:02.150]  Of course, we had to wait for it to open because for some reason it was in Los Angeles.
[08:02.350 --> 08:08.590]  And we had to wait for it to be 10 o'clock in the morning in Los Angeles, which was 10 o'clock at night in Beijing.
[08:09.670 --> 08:12.830]  And I reached somebody there and we went through this whole big thing.
[08:12.830 --> 08:14.910]  He said, you know, all the flights are full.
[08:14.910 --> 08:17.190]  All the flights are full from now until the end of the month.
[08:17.350 --> 08:18.450]  I'm like, oh, great.
[08:18.690 --> 08:19.370]  This is horrible.
[08:19.430 --> 08:20.210]  How am I going to get out of here?
[08:20.670 --> 08:26.270]  He said, well, the flight tomorrow, the one that you thought you were going to be on, that flight is completely full.
[08:26.350 --> 08:28.470]  But for $500, we can get you on that flight.
[08:29.770 --> 08:32.430]  And I just repeated that because I was so incredulous.
[08:32.550 --> 08:37.110]  I said, so you're saying that for $500, you can get me onto the completely full flight?
[08:37.170 --> 08:38.790]  And he said, yes, without hesitation.
[08:39.210 --> 08:45.630]  And I, you know, I had to say, I almost admire your sleaziness because it's just so incredibly blatant, the airlines, how they work.
[08:46.170 --> 08:48.650]  But yeah, $500, I could get onto a full flight.
[08:48.750 --> 08:49.810]  And that's what I did.
[08:50.590 --> 08:52.710]  So I told the guy, okay, let's go ahead with this.
[08:52.810 --> 08:55.490]  And he typed some things into the computer and said, okay, it's all set.
[08:55.570 --> 08:56.790]  Just go to the airport tomorrow.
[08:56.970 --> 08:58.670]  Make sure you get there early in case there's any confusion.
[09:00.010 --> 09:01.730]  And I thought it was over at that point.
[09:01.830 --> 09:02.490]  I thought it was finished.
[09:02.630 --> 09:03.810]  I thought I was home free.
[09:04.430 --> 09:04.790]  Emmanuel?
[09:04.930 --> 09:05.670]  Home plus $500.
[09:05.930 --> 09:06.230]  Yes, Bernie?
[09:06.910 --> 09:08.570]  How do you know that was sleazy?
[09:08.690 --> 09:16.210]  How do you know they weren't just going to give that $500 to the poor person who had to volunteer to get off the plane to make room for you?
[09:16.470 --> 09:20.030]  Well, I don't think anybody volunteered to get off a plane because all these full...
[09:20.030 --> 09:20.350]  For $500?
[09:20.730 --> 09:21.150]  All these...
[09:21.150 --> 09:22.310]  I'd get off the plane.
[09:22.370 --> 09:22.990]  Yeah, okay, fine.
[09:22.990 --> 09:24.750]  But all these full flights always have empty seats.
[09:24.890 --> 09:26.010]  And this one had empty seats, too.
[09:26.150 --> 09:30.070]  So they're just lying out of parts of them that I'd rather not talk about.
[09:31.410 --> 09:33.710]  Anyway, so I thought everything was fine.
[09:34.470 --> 09:35.710]  I met my friend.
[09:35.710 --> 09:36.690]  We were in a pub.
[09:36.790 --> 09:37.710]  Everything looked cool.
[09:38.330 --> 09:39.790]  And then the phone rang.
[09:39.810 --> 09:41.150]  And it was the guy from Los Angeles.
[09:41.150 --> 09:42.690]  I'd give him my GSM number.
[09:42.770 --> 09:48.430]  He was calling to say that he was able to make the changes in the computer, but he couldn't figure out how to make the changes apply in Beijing.
[09:48.710 --> 09:50.330]  Like the two systems were incompatible.
[09:50.430 --> 09:52.290]  And somehow this was turning into my problem.
[09:52.290 --> 09:55.590]  And he said, what you're going to have to do is call the Beijing number.
[09:55.690 --> 09:56.830]  At least he had the Beijing number.
[09:56.890 --> 09:58.690]  But he gave me the number to call in Beijing.
[09:58.810 --> 09:59.550]  But I couldn't call them then.
[09:59.550 --> 10:01.110]  I had to wait until the morning when they opened.
[10:01.690 --> 10:06.590]  And I asked the guy, look, I just had this most ridiculous conversation with somebody who claimed to speak English.
[10:06.690 --> 10:11.870]  Do you think that I might have problems speaking to these people in English, you know, and getting this whole thing straightened out?
[10:11.910 --> 10:12.430]  He said, don't worry.
[10:12.610 --> 10:13.230]  Everything will be fine.
[10:13.910 --> 10:16.870]  So I was like, okay, I'll just deal with this tomorrow morning.
[10:17.450 --> 10:19.170]  And the next day came and I dealt with it.
[10:19.590 --> 10:20.130]  I called the number.
[10:20.310 --> 10:21.790]  It was put on hold for about 15 minutes.
[10:22.290 --> 10:23.530]  Musical hold, that kind of thing.
[10:23.710 --> 10:26.290]  I pressed the English button and I got a guy who spoke English.
[10:26.770 --> 10:33.250]  And not only did he find me in the computer, he actually gave me a little five-letter code that was the confirmation code.
[10:33.370 --> 10:34.910]  So everything seemed fine.
[10:35.430 --> 10:40.210]  Got into the taxi, headed to the airport, made it into the check-in area.
[10:40.430 --> 10:42.430]  First, you have to emigrate from the country first.
[10:42.530 --> 10:49.790]  You have to fill out a little form saying that you're not bringing any livestock with you or any diseases or things like that.
[10:50.110 --> 10:51.310]  And so you fill out that form.
[10:51.430 --> 10:51.950]  You hand it to them.
[10:52.030 --> 10:52.810]  Maybe you'll get searched.
[10:52.890 --> 10:53.550]  Maybe you won't.
[10:53.730 --> 10:54.810]  In my case, I didn't.
[10:55.150 --> 10:57.610]  Waited online for the check-in.
[10:58.070 --> 11:00.950]  And as soon as I got to the front of the line, I presented my information.
[11:00.950 --> 11:02.630]  And the person just looked at me and said, no.
[11:03.750 --> 11:04.950]  And I'm like, what do you mean, no?
[11:05.770 --> 11:06.890]  I'm booked on this flight.
[11:06.890 --> 11:07.750]  You should be able to find me.
[11:08.070 --> 11:09.230]  I gave her the ticket number.
[11:09.350 --> 11:09.790]  I gave her everything.
[11:10.390 --> 11:12.710]  After a long while, she was typing away all kinds of things.
[11:12.850 --> 11:21.810]  She said that I have to go and pay the difference, which I figured either I had already done on the phone because they have my credit card information or I would do it at that point when I checked in.
[11:21.930 --> 11:26.150]  So she directed me to another place where you have to pay people to do various things.
[11:26.390 --> 11:29.350]  So I waited on that line and they were confused.
[11:29.450 --> 11:30.250]  They couldn't find me.
[11:30.730 --> 11:32.290]  I had to go through that for quite a while.
[11:32.430 --> 11:36.190]  Finally, they said, okay, we found you, but it's going to cost you about $1,500 extra.
[11:36.870 --> 11:38.510]  So they completely came up with a different number.
[11:38.510 --> 11:43.650]  I had to call my friend back in New York and said, do we have any verification that the guy said it was only going to cost me $500?
[11:44.090 --> 11:46.050]  And he said, well, the guy just said so.
[11:46.150 --> 11:47.130]  There's no way to verify that.
[11:47.550 --> 11:54.130]  I think being on the phone in the airport when you're arguing with somebody helps because she came back to me and said, well, my supervisor said...
[11:54.130 --> 11:55.150]  They actually have that phrase over there.
[11:55.170 --> 11:57.130]  My supervisor said it's okay to charge you $500.
[11:58.090 --> 12:03.110]  Apparently, that's another little trick they have is to see how far you'll go before they give you the original price.
[12:03.630 --> 12:05.130]  So gave them the credit card.
[12:05.330 --> 12:06.150]  They billed it.
[12:06.330 --> 12:07.270]  Went back to the line.
[12:08.510 --> 12:09.670]  And this time the line was much longer.
[12:09.710 --> 12:10.470]  It took about a half hour.
[12:11.370 --> 12:12.330]  And I got there.
[12:12.790 --> 12:14.130]  And they said, okay, where's your ticket?
[12:14.930 --> 12:15.450]  What ticket?
[12:15.510 --> 12:16.130]  I don't have a ticket.
[12:16.210 --> 12:17.110]  This is ticketless travel.
[12:17.250 --> 12:18.230]  It's on the web.
[12:18.430 --> 12:19.510]  I said, no, you have to have a ticket.
[12:19.610 --> 12:20.710]  Where do I get a ticket from?
[12:20.810 --> 12:22.070]  You guys don't give me tickets.
[12:22.630 --> 12:24.390]  So she said, you have to go to Windows 61.
[12:24.950 --> 12:27.430]  And there was no Windows 61 anywhere near the place.
[12:27.430 --> 12:30.150]  It's all A, B, C, and D, and it goes from 1 to 20.
[12:30.530 --> 12:35.230]  So I asked where Windows 61 was, and various people pointed me to all different directions.
[12:35.450 --> 12:36.090]  Nobody agreed.
[12:36.710 --> 12:37.950]  Finally, I figured it out on my own.
[12:38.090 --> 12:43.150]  I had to go back outside to a ticket office, which was very obscure in a corner someplace.
[12:43.630 --> 12:47.290]  Waited online there, and they couldn't find me, of course.
[12:47.970 --> 12:54.390]  Eventually, they typed some things into a computer, walked all over the place, dealt with various other people.
[12:54.390 --> 12:57.530]  Because if anybody comes up after you, they get dealt with first, apparently.
[12:57.730 --> 12:59.190]  That seems to be the way they work it.
[13:00.890 --> 13:07.370]  And then eventually, they gave me this really ridiculous-looking piece of paper with handwriting on it.
[13:07.410 --> 13:12.370]  They said I had to go to Windows C20 and talk to some person whose name they wrote down.
[13:12.990 --> 13:15.090]  So I said, okay, I had to emigrate a second time.
[13:15.210 --> 13:16.690]  I had to fill out the form a second time.
[13:16.690 --> 13:18.670]  I hope that doesn't confuse their computers.
[13:19.670 --> 13:22.130]  And waited on Windows C20 at this point.
[13:22.630 --> 13:26.330]  And finally, got to the front, said, I need to speak to this person.
[13:26.370 --> 13:27.810]  They had no idea who that person was.
[13:28.690 --> 13:30.190]  But they were able to figure it out eventually.
[13:30.330 --> 13:31.830]  At this point, people were starting to recognize me.
[13:31.930 --> 13:36.130]  Because I was circulating through the computer so many times that my name kept coming up.
[13:36.230 --> 13:40.130]  Every time I went to a window, a phone call was made, stuff was typed into computers.
[13:41.230 --> 13:42.930]  And I was now recognized.
[13:42.930 --> 13:44.830]  So they were able to give me the ticket.
[13:44.830 --> 13:45.870]  I figured, okay, great.
[13:45.950 --> 13:46.670]  You know, I'm worried now.
[13:46.790 --> 13:49.130]  There's less than an hour before my flight departs.
[13:49.230 --> 13:51.450]  I'm starting to get a little worried that I'm going to miss my flight.
[13:51.570 --> 13:52.690]  And it's through no fault of my own.
[13:52.770 --> 13:53.750]  I'd been there for two hours already.
[13:54.090 --> 13:58.930]  They said, okay, you have to go back to the original line that you tried to check in twice now.
[13:59.590 --> 14:01.190]  And I said, I can't do that.
[14:01.270 --> 14:03.710]  Because if I wait on that line, I'm going to miss my flight.
[14:03.810 --> 14:08.810]  And apparently, if you say, I'm going to miss my flight, that triggers some kind of a reaction in them.
[14:08.910 --> 14:13.930]  And they went into this super help mode where they came from behind the counter.
[14:14.770 --> 14:18.910]  They stuck this Air China sticky thing on my jacket.
[14:19.110 --> 14:19.370]  I don't know.
[14:19.430 --> 14:20.390]  That labels me somehow.
[14:20.410 --> 14:21.210]  I still have it on my jacket.
[14:21.250 --> 14:22.290]  I'm going to wear it for the rest of my life.
[14:22.970 --> 14:28.350]  They walked me in front of all the people on the line and said some things to various agents.
[14:28.590 --> 14:31.790]  They took my bag and told me I had five minutes to make the plane.
[14:32.170 --> 14:34.690]  And they're like, oh, is it five minutes to make the actual plane?
[14:34.790 --> 14:37.130]  Or five minutes to get through security, which I still had not been through.
[14:37.430 --> 14:39.030]  And all the other things that you have to do.
[14:39.890 --> 14:42.410]  So eventually, I ran all the way down.
[14:42.810 --> 14:49.630]  I had to wait with literally a thousand other people in this huge exit area where you have to get checked out and searched.
[14:50.790 --> 14:54.870]  I made the plane with maybe about three or four minutes to spare after all that.
[14:55.650 --> 14:57.750]  All because I didn't look at my itinerary.
[14:58.010 --> 15:01.290]  And then, then, this is where things get crazy, right?
[15:01.510 --> 15:02.930]  You think it was bad up till now.
[15:03.250 --> 15:08.310]  Things get crazy because I was on this plane, which was the plane from hell.
[15:08.310 --> 15:09.030]  It really was.
[15:09.330 --> 15:15.150]  I was sandwiched in to this inhumane space that no human can exist in.
[15:16.850 --> 15:18.470]  Basically, you know how planes are set up?
[15:18.470 --> 15:20.430]  You have, like, the rows on the left, the rows on the right.
[15:20.490 --> 15:21.530]  Then you have the rows in the middle.
[15:21.710 --> 15:23.190]  I was right smack in the middle.
[15:23.510 --> 15:28.870]  Next to me was this big, fat, obese woman who hung, like, a third over into my seat, okay?
[15:29.410 --> 15:34.670]  And she was with this whole group of people from the Midwest who had never been to China before.
[15:34.930 --> 15:41.830]  And they're like, you know, all these people with their observations of what it's like to be in Beijing.
[15:41.950 --> 15:43.430]  I don't like it here in Beijing.
[15:43.430 --> 15:44.590]  Too many Chinese people.
[15:44.590 --> 15:51.890]  So, you know, that kind of stuff that I had to deal with for 13 and a half hours, those kinds of insights into the culture and the differences and all that kind of thing.
[15:51.950 --> 15:52.610]  All right, that's to my left.
[15:52.730 --> 15:56.650]  To my right, I had a screaming baby the whole time and a mother who was screaming at the screaming baby.
[15:56.930 --> 16:03.350]  In front of me, I had somebody who felt it necessary to recline the entire trip from even before we started taxiing to after we touched down.
[16:03.350 --> 16:09.110]  And in back of me, somebody who was upset that I was reclining because there was no space for me to breathe if I didn't recline.
[16:09.970 --> 16:11.510]  So, I had that to worry about.
[16:12.510 --> 16:14.250]  The flight itself...
[16:14.250 --> 16:15.090]  I don't know.
[16:15.490 --> 16:16.930]  Redbird, you know something about planes.
[16:16.990 --> 16:17.730]  You're a pilot.
[16:18.710 --> 16:20.070]  Now, this is...
[16:20.070 --> 16:21.390]  I'm used to turbulence.
[16:21.650 --> 16:23.930]  But in this particular case, turbulence usually goes up and down.
[16:24.070 --> 16:25.610]  This turbulence was going left and right.
[16:25.770 --> 16:29.930]  We were rocking back and forth literally from the whole time we took off until the time we landed.
[16:29.930 --> 16:30.670]  We were doing this.
[16:30.750 --> 16:31.730]  And it was nauseating.
[16:31.730 --> 16:32.270]  It really was.
[16:33.170 --> 16:38.510]  But then there was the time when we were about to cross into the U.S.
[16:38.650 --> 16:42.150]  We were flying over Ontario and crossing over the U.S.
[16:42.290 --> 16:42.370]  border.
[16:42.450 --> 16:42.990]  I don't know if the U.S.
[16:43.090 --> 16:45.070]  does something on its border to trigger this.
[16:45.190 --> 16:48.110]  But the turbulence started to get worse at that point.
[16:48.410 --> 16:52.730]  And this is right about the time where they started to serve coffee.
[16:53.750 --> 16:54.170]  All right.
[16:54.210 --> 16:55.250]  You see where this is going now.
[16:55.990 --> 16:58.890]  They were serving hot coffee, really, really hot coffee.
[16:58.890 --> 17:04.970]  And, you know, when they serve coffee on planes, they're the people that really should have the covers on the cups.
[17:05.150 --> 17:05.910]  They really should.
[17:05.910 --> 17:06.310]  They don't.
[17:06.370 --> 17:07.890]  They don't have any covers on any of their cups.
[17:07.990 --> 17:10.830]  You figure an airplane which is bouncing up and down, that's where you might need it.
[17:11.010 --> 17:16.150]  So as soon as I get my piping hot cup of coffee, which I don't usually drink, but I didn't want to fall asleep.
[17:16.150 --> 17:20.110]  Because who knows where that fat woman would have wound up if I'd woken up after being asleep.
[17:20.590 --> 17:23.090]  It was really not cool.
[17:24.330 --> 17:25.550]  The turbulence was getting worse.
[17:25.670 --> 17:28.310]  And then all of a sudden it hit, right at the border.
[17:28.390 --> 17:29.630]  I really think it was right at the border.
[17:30.870 --> 17:32.070]  We flew up in the air.
[17:32.130 --> 17:33.750]  It was like we hit something.
[17:34.170 --> 17:35.370]  People were screaming.
[17:35.450 --> 17:37.750]  It was panic, pandemonium.
[17:37.870 --> 17:38.930]  I heard people throwing up.
[17:39.110 --> 17:41.790]  There was possessions all over the place.
[17:41.850 --> 17:43.270]  And of course, my coffee got all over me.
[17:43.890 --> 17:46.610]  Everybody else's refreshments were every place.
[17:47.010 --> 17:48.710]  It was horrible.
[17:48.930 --> 17:51.990]  It really was not good at all.
[17:52.130 --> 17:54.530]  And then the idiots kept serving coffee after that.
[17:54.590 --> 17:55.190]  And they wouldn't help.
[17:55.310 --> 17:58.730]  They wouldn't help provide napkins or towels or anything like that.
[17:58.870 --> 17:59.370]  They just...
[17:59.370 --> 18:03.690]  And unlike other airlines where the captain comes on and says, Oh, sorry about that, folks.
[18:03.830 --> 18:05.150]  Hit a little turbulence back there.
[18:05.430 --> 18:08.390]  I'm going to try and make up a half hour for you just to make everybody feel better.
[18:08.490 --> 18:09.150]  They don't say anything.
[18:09.270 --> 18:10.010]  They don't tell you a thing.
[18:12.130 --> 18:14.570]  So, that was my Air China experience.
[18:14.710 --> 18:15.730]  I don't recommend it.
[18:16.230 --> 18:17.990]  I don't recommend flying like that.
[18:18.110 --> 18:19.850]  So, Manuel, tell us something about North Korea.
[18:20.070 --> 18:20.910]  You want to hear about North Korea?
[18:20.990 --> 18:21.490]  Well, you know...
[18:21.490 --> 18:23.470]  I thought you wanted to hear about the coffee stains.
[18:23.730 --> 18:25.370]  So, I told you the story about the coffee stains.
[18:25.590 --> 18:26.450]  Oh, well, now we've heard that.
[18:27.290 --> 18:28.910]  North Korea is paradise compared to that.
[18:28.910 --> 18:29.830]  I'll tell you that right now.
[18:30.050 --> 18:30.210]  Well.
[18:30.670 --> 18:30.930]  Yeah.
[18:31.070 --> 18:31.470]  How so?
[18:32.190 --> 18:33.610]  Well, that's kind of open-ended, isn't it?
[18:33.970 --> 18:34.930]  Well, okay.
[18:34.990 --> 18:36.010]  Let's start with a letter.
[18:36.190 --> 18:38.150]  Let's start with what somebody sent me.
[18:38.330 --> 18:38.750]  All right.
[18:40.430 --> 18:44.430]  I'm also sick because everybody on this plane was coughing and sneezing.
[18:44.630 --> 18:45.670]  It was unbelievable.
[18:46.110 --> 18:47.470]  I was healthy getting on the plane.
[18:47.550 --> 18:49.170]  When I got off, I was sick as a dog.
[18:49.170 --> 18:50.290]  I've been sick the whole day.
[18:50.690 --> 18:51.490]  Airplanes do that.
[18:51.970 --> 18:55.330]  Yeah, but I've never been on an airplane where so many people were sick at the same time.
[18:55.970 --> 18:57.170]  It was really...
[18:57.170 --> 19:01.230]  And didn't they quarantine a plane once that came from China where everybody was sick a couple of weeks ago?
[19:01.310 --> 19:03.210]  Yeah, but not with the common cold.
[19:03.490 --> 19:05.210]  You have to be sicker than that to get quarantined.
[19:05.210 --> 19:09.530]  Well, all the fat ladies from the Midwest had emphysema because they were all smokers, which is pretty obvious.
[19:09.670 --> 19:10.930]  Well, that's not contagious.
[19:11.210 --> 19:11.830]  No, not really.
[19:13.070 --> 19:13.430]  Okay.
[19:13.510 --> 19:16.690]  Let's check out a letter here.
[19:18.130 --> 19:18.610]  Let's see.
[19:18.690 --> 19:20.090]  This is from John.
[19:20.870 --> 19:29.990]  Did it occur to Emmanuel that, since his Pyongyang tour was organized by the government, that perhaps he had been spoon-fed what the authorities wanted to see for propaganda purposes?
[19:31.030 --> 19:36.890]  Not that we should automatically believe what we hear about another country, but I've come to expect more rebelliousness and inquisitiveness from Emmanuel.
[19:36.990 --> 19:43.790]  To hear him continually bemoan America's descent to police state status and then go to a real police state and babble how wonderful it is, is laughable.
[19:44.650 --> 19:50.270]  This reminded me a lot of Iranians forcing the British Marines, being forced to make videos saying how wonderful Iran has treated them, et cetera, et cetera.
[19:51.090 --> 19:52.310]  Well, you know, here's the thing.
[19:52.510 --> 20:01.750]  I was over there as a tourist looking at the place, and I think, you know, what I described on the phone last week was pretty accurate as far as what I saw.
[20:02.010 --> 20:10.670]  I didn't say anything about the regime, about anything that you can find out about in so many other places.
[20:11.530 --> 20:14.310]  So I don't understand what the confusion is here.
[20:14.430 --> 20:21.710]  I don't understand why people think that going over there and saying, hey, the people are friendly, and we've been taught so many things that are wrong.
[20:21.710 --> 20:27.190]  I just don't see why that necessarily is something that indicates that you've been brainwashed.
[20:27.310 --> 20:28.410]  Because I don't feel that way at all.
[20:28.510 --> 20:33.410]  Can you give us some examples of things that you feel that were told about North Korea that you observe differently?
[20:33.570 --> 20:36.210]  Well, that everything is regimented.
[20:36.210 --> 20:40.370]  I mean, first of all, yeah, it's a very highly military society.
[20:40.510 --> 20:41.370]  There's no question about that.
[20:41.990 --> 20:44.850]  Then again, I could argue that we are as well in different ways.
[20:46.350 --> 20:47.710]  But everyone is...
[20:47.710 --> 20:50.450]  If you look at the Mass Games, have you guys ever seen the Mass Games?
[20:51.150 --> 20:52.670]  It's amazing that they don't cover them at all.
[20:52.750 --> 20:53.730]  That's something right there.
[20:53.990 --> 20:57.870]  The Mass Games is one of the most incredible spectacles humanity has ever come up with.
[20:57.990 --> 21:00.770]  And yeah, just because it's in North Korea does not mean we should ignore it.
[21:00.770 --> 21:07.830]  And we have a tendency of ignoring news stories if they're not of interest to our immediate small lives.
[21:07.870 --> 21:11.470]  Like today, for instance, the biggest news in the world, Boris Yeltsin.
[21:11.650 --> 21:12.470]  His funeral is today.
[21:12.570 --> 21:13.510]  The whole world is following that.
[21:13.570 --> 21:14.670]  I was watching CNN all day.
[21:14.930 --> 21:20.210]  The biggest story for them is some actor's phone message was revealed where he's criticizing his daughter.
[21:20.330 --> 21:21.110]  I don't even know who it is.
[21:21.290 --> 21:22.910]  But you guys probably know who it is, right?
[21:22.970 --> 21:23.490]  Jim, you know who it is.
[21:23.750 --> 21:23.930]  Alex Baldwin.
[21:24.130 --> 21:25.550]  You see, why do you know that?
[21:25.730 --> 21:26.390]  Why do you know that?
[21:26.390 --> 21:29.630]  That's a bit of ridiculous information that's wasting the part of your brain.
[21:30.110 --> 21:33.130]  The whole world is following what's going on in the world and we ignore it.
[21:33.570 --> 21:35.450]  So yeah, we should not be ignoring things like the mass games.
[21:35.610 --> 21:36.070]  They're incredible.
[21:36.190 --> 21:39.190]  An incredible spectacle, regardless of what you think of the people who run the regime.
[21:40.050 --> 21:42.070]  So yeah, it's a regimented society.
[21:42.850 --> 21:45.690]  There's all sorts of military parades.
[21:45.810 --> 21:46.670]  There was one yesterday, in fact.
[21:48.910 --> 21:50.410]  And where was I going with this?
[21:52.930 --> 21:54.070]  It's a regimented society.
[21:54.730 --> 21:56.250]  It's different than what we're used to.
[21:58.010 --> 22:05.230]  So you could say that people are always in a state of readiness of some sort, but that doesn't mean they can't be friendly people.
[22:05.330 --> 22:06.890]  They can't be humans at the same time.
[22:06.950 --> 22:08.690]  And I think that's something we lose sight of.
[22:08.790 --> 22:17.490]  When we just listen to what's reported in our media, we tend to think of them as these brainwashed automatrons.
[22:17.650 --> 22:18.530]  And they're not like that at all.
[22:18.610 --> 22:19.690]  They're regular human beings.
[22:19.810 --> 22:22.290]  See, they believe in something that we don't understand.
[22:22.290 --> 22:24.010]  They believe...
[22:24.490 --> 22:25.730]  It's very much like religion.
[22:26.370 --> 22:29.290]  And I get the same feeling whenever I walk into a church, you know.
[22:29.510 --> 22:39.710]  There's that instinct in you that wants to just shout out about all the injustices and, you know, throw blood on the cross and whatever else, you know, it's a nice, normal thing that you feel like you have to do.
[22:39.830 --> 22:44.770]  And there are people who are compelled to do things like that every time they go into a place of worship.
[22:44.770 --> 22:53.730]  What I try to do, though, instead, is accept what these people believe in on their terms when I'm in their place.
[22:53.890 --> 22:55.970]  And I think that's a very simple thing to try and do.
[22:56.050 --> 22:59.630]  It's something that the group I was with, they were very respectful of this.
[22:59.830 --> 23:09.950]  Now, the North Koreans don't expect you to share their faith and their wild belief in their leaders and in their system.
[23:09.950 --> 23:16.690]  But they do respect you to respect it and to listen to them when they're explaining their point of view.
[23:17.470 --> 23:18.770]  And it's not that hard to do.
[23:18.830 --> 23:21.670]  But I do think most people would not be able to sit through all of that.
[23:21.750 --> 23:23.310]  It does take a lot out of you.
[23:23.330 --> 23:25.670]  You're always going to museums and seeing various things.
[23:25.950 --> 23:29.270]  It was kind of cool seeing the Pueblo, which is the captured U.S.
[23:29.350 --> 23:31.710]  ship that they grabbed in the 60s.
[23:32.730 --> 23:35.210]  I think it's the only time anybody ever captured a U.S.
[23:35.230 --> 23:36.110]  ship and put it on display.
[23:36.110 --> 23:40.190]  Anyway, so it's, I don't know, it was an eye-opening experience.
[23:40.210 --> 23:43.870]  I think the best part, though, is when we just started to interact with the people on our own.
[23:43.970 --> 23:49.350]  We just started waving out the bus and they started waving back and the kids were thrilled to see weird-looking people like us.
[23:49.410 --> 23:50.310]  And we really were weird-looking.
[23:50.490 --> 23:52.770]  See, there's a difference between China and North Korea.
[23:52.890 --> 23:56.030]  In China, people are really kind of rude and racist many times.
[23:56.270 --> 23:59.190]  I got really bad treatment from many people because I wasn't Chinese.
[23:59.550 --> 24:02.950]  Like in restaurants and things like that, they just don't see you and they go to the Chinese people.
[24:02.950 --> 24:09.030]  And people on the street, they point and they laugh and they make mocking remarks, not just to me, but to any Westerner.
[24:09.450 --> 24:17.130]  North Korea, people look kind of bewildered by you, but they're a lot more polite and they smile a lot more.
[24:17.430 --> 24:18.590]  So that's just what I noticed.
[24:18.790 --> 24:20.670]  Now, you obviously went with a tour group, right?
[24:20.870 --> 24:21.030]  Mm-hmm.
[24:21.110 --> 24:23.630]  So how much do you think that limited your perspective?
[24:24.030 --> 24:31.250]  Well, obviously, it limited a great deal because you can't go walking around and interacting with people on your own anywhere you wish to go.
[24:31.250 --> 24:35.510]  But I was surprised by how much I was able to walk around and interact with people.
[24:35.650 --> 24:40.810]  There was a time when I got in, accidentally, I got into a tunnel.
[24:41.210 --> 24:42.130]  Now, this was really weird.
[24:42.330 --> 24:48.570]  They have this structure, which is almost identical to the Arc de Triomphe of Paris, except it's bigger.
[24:48.770 --> 24:53.310]  And actually, it has, you can drive cars through one end of it and people can walk through the other end of it.
[24:53.330 --> 24:55.090]  So actually, there's like four little arches there.
[24:55.990 --> 25:00.730]  And by there, there is a tunnel, which goes from one side of the street to the other.
[25:00.950 --> 25:03.550]  Now, we all got off the bus and we were looking at this structure.
[25:03.710 --> 25:04.430]  We were taking pictures.
[25:05.570 --> 25:07.990]  And I just kind of wandered into the tunnel.
[25:08.110 --> 25:11.330]  I figured that I was going to just meet up on the other side.
[25:11.950 --> 25:15.070]  And I went through the tunnel and I came up and I didn't see anybody on you.
[25:15.330 --> 25:16.410]  I didn't see a single person.
[25:16.670 --> 25:18.850]  And right then, I was a little concerned.
[25:19.110 --> 25:19.730]  Like, here I am.
[25:19.990 --> 25:21.490]  I'm in the middle of North Korea.
[25:21.490 --> 25:22.170]  I'm in Pyongyang.
[25:22.330 --> 25:23.730]  And I'm all by myself.
[25:23.730 --> 25:24.530]  And there's nobody around.
[25:24.630 --> 25:25.330]  There's no tour guides.
[25:25.510 --> 25:26.650]  There's no fellow travelers.
[25:26.750 --> 25:30.070]  I must have done something wrong because I'm in a different place than I should be.
[25:30.290 --> 25:33.210]  So I went back into the tunnel, which, by the way, was completely dark.
[25:33.810 --> 25:35.490]  Everybody was walking around in there.
[25:35.510 --> 25:36.630]  It was crowded full of people.
[25:36.630 --> 25:38.890]  But everybody could see where they were going, even though the lights were out.
[25:39.090 --> 25:45.390]  In North Korea, they can serve as much as they possibly can by not driving, by not keeping unnecessary lights on.
[25:45.710 --> 25:50.270]  And apparently, the people adapt really well because everybody's just walking through at full speed in this dark tunnel.
[25:51.630 --> 25:53.770]  And I really could have gone anywhere at that point.
[25:53.770 --> 25:59.730]  But I was sort of making eye contact with a lot of different people who just happened to be walking in the same tunnel.
[26:00.170 --> 26:02.850]  And yeah, it certainly was kind of strange to them.
[26:02.850 --> 26:04.750]  Who is this weird person walking around?
[26:04.750 --> 26:07.430]  But eventually, I was able to find people that I was supposed to be with.
[26:07.510 --> 26:09.110]  And they were just, where were you?
[26:10.250 --> 26:11.190]  You wandered away.
[26:11.610 --> 26:13.770]  It's just a miscommunication, but it was no big deal.
[26:14.150 --> 26:18.170]  So there were those times where you could kind of interact with people.
[26:18.170 --> 26:20.750]  And it wasn't anything like what I was led to believe.
[26:20.910 --> 26:27.290]  People were generally friendly and not as hostile as you might think.
[26:29.150 --> 26:30.090]  Now, I have a question.
[26:30.250 --> 26:30.730]  Go ahead, Mike.
[26:30.730 --> 26:32.090]  Now, I know that the U.S.
[26:32.210 --> 26:34.930]  government does not let Americans go to some countries.
[26:35.050 --> 26:35.970]  Is North Korea one of those?
[26:36.010 --> 26:36.570]  No, that's not true.
[26:36.810 --> 26:38.330]  I didn't go as an American citizen, though.
[26:38.510 --> 26:40.190]  So just to make that clear.
[26:42.290 --> 26:48.030]  But it's because if you go as an American citizen, first of all, the North Koreans most times don't let Americans in.
[26:48.170 --> 26:50.830]  And if they do let them in, it's only for a couple of days.
[26:50.910 --> 26:52.610]  And I imagine they watch them a lot more.
[26:52.750 --> 26:53.590]  There's a lot of paranoia.
[26:53.670 --> 26:58.150]  Just as there's a lot of paranoia here about North Korea, there's a lot of paranoia there about the United States.
[26:58.570 --> 27:06.550]  Now, you know, I'm not taking sides or trying to justify anything, but they are facing 40,000 troops on their border that come from our country.
[27:06.990 --> 27:14.010]  And they do have that thing called the Korean War, which the entire north of their country was obliterated virtually by U.S.
[27:14.090 --> 27:14.310]  bombs.
[27:14.310 --> 27:21.630]  So there's something there as far as why they're a little bit concerned about that, putting it mildly.
[27:22.070 --> 27:32.350]  I just think what I got out of this was that if you just meet people and talk to them in a civilized way, which is something that we don't seem interested in doing.
[27:32.790 --> 27:38.530]  Our government, for instance, when they want to have some kind of a talk with North Koreans, they say, OK, we'll talk to you.
[27:38.590 --> 27:39.770]  But first, you have to admit you're wrong.
[27:40.550 --> 27:42.970]  And try that with a person that doesn't work.
[27:42.970 --> 27:48.930]  You don't get anywhere by trying to shame people into a corner or something.
[27:49.290 --> 27:50.490]  There's something called respect.
[27:50.490 --> 27:51.710]  It's a very basic thing.
[27:51.870 --> 27:55.770]  And I think if we learn to show that a little more, we'd get so much further.
[27:57.430 --> 27:57.870]  Wow.
[27:59.410 --> 28:00.690]  Is that all for the questioning?
[28:00.970 --> 28:02.110]  Well, tell us about your guides.
[28:03.110 --> 28:04.610]  I mean, they were just guides.
[28:04.730 --> 28:07.870]  They were just people who showed you around.
[28:08.030 --> 28:12.490]  We had two guides, an apprentice guide and a driver.
[28:12.490 --> 28:13.690]  And also a cameraman, too.
[28:13.810 --> 28:16.650]  What they do is they film you walking around on these tours.
[28:16.670 --> 28:18.110]  And then they sell you a DVD afterwards.
[28:18.210 --> 28:19.250]  Or a VCD, actually.
[28:21.290 --> 28:22.290]  I hope you bought it.
[28:22.410 --> 28:22.630]  Oh, yeah.
[28:22.670 --> 28:23.090]  Of course I did.
[28:23.310 --> 28:23.810]  It's great.
[28:24.530 --> 28:25.790]  You got to put it on YouTube or something.
[28:25.790 --> 28:26.150]  I will.
[28:26.250 --> 28:26.570]  I will.
[28:26.710 --> 28:27.870]  It's amazing.
[28:28.030 --> 28:30.110]  But we got to know them over the week.
[28:30.110 --> 28:34.690]  And I think we had a good group because we were obviously being respectful.
[28:35.370 --> 28:37.550]  We were doing everything that was requested of us.
[28:37.650 --> 28:39.010]  And that gave us a lot more freedom.
[28:39.230 --> 28:41.250]  We were able to walk around.
[28:41.390 --> 28:44.770]  At the Mass Games, they trusted us to just find our way out by ourselves.
[28:44.890 --> 28:46.410]  We were in the biggest stadium in the world.
[28:46.830 --> 28:52.470]  And we just sort of found our way to the bus with 100,000 other North Koreans.
[28:52.750 --> 28:53.730]  So that was kind of cool.
[28:53.730 --> 28:56.070]  Normally, you'd expect to be on a much tighter leash than that.
[28:57.030 --> 29:00.650]  I just got the feeling that we connected, which was a nice thing to do.
[29:00.770 --> 29:01.370]  And there was...
[29:01.370 --> 29:07.970]  You know, nobody said we're admitting that we're wrong or this side is better than that side.
[29:08.150 --> 29:14.070]  It was just a question of being in somebody's country and listening to their point of view, which I think is a very respectful thing to do.
[29:14.350 --> 29:14.610]  Not Kevin.
[29:14.790 --> 29:19.170]  Did you notice certain things that your tour guides would always bypass or not allow you to do?
[29:20.430 --> 29:21.050]  Not really.
[29:21.050 --> 29:23.750]  They were actually pretty accommodating.
[29:23.890 --> 29:30.850]  If you wanted to do something, if you wanted to take more pictures of a particular area or try to go to something, we negotiated quite a few things.
[29:31.010 --> 29:34.050]  Some people wanted to see the Mass Games a second time and they were able to negotiate another trip.
[29:34.210 --> 29:35.650]  Some people were able to see a football game.
[29:35.750 --> 29:39.470]  North Korea played India and won, by the way, for the Olympic qualifier.
[29:39.710 --> 29:41.230]  And people said, I'd like to see that.
[29:41.330 --> 29:43.050]  They worked it out so people could see that as well.
[29:44.310 --> 29:48.790]  Basically, it's just a question of finding something that's of interest, that's possible to do.
[29:48.790 --> 29:51.230]  And if it's possible, they'll work it out.
[29:52.050 --> 29:52.490]  Jim?
[29:52.750 --> 29:53.410]  Two questions.
[29:53.530 --> 29:55.650]  First, you said you didn't go as an American citizen.
[29:55.650 --> 29:56.510]  What did you go as?
[29:56.530 --> 29:57.290]  An American bison?
[29:57.510 --> 29:58.790]  Something else.
[29:59.010 --> 29:59.470]  Something else.
[29:59.550 --> 30:00.690]  You're not going anywhere first.
[30:00.690 --> 30:02.230]  That's all we're going to say about that now.
[30:02.370 --> 30:02.870]  Anything else?
[30:03.090 --> 30:03.330]  Yeah.
[30:03.690 --> 30:11.470]  Did you get any sense of it being like a Potemkin village where it was a false front or a real front, but obviously a front?
[30:12.270 --> 30:13.150]  Because there's...
[30:13.150 --> 30:15.150]  You say that without saying the word front so many times?
[30:15.610 --> 30:18.170]  There's been stories that there's a village...
[30:18.170 --> 30:18.870]  Ah, okay.
[30:18.930 --> 30:19.450]  I know where you're going.
[30:19.570 --> 30:19.850]  Yeah.
[30:20.590 --> 30:27.970]  Very close to the north that's populated by people who are acting much in the spirit of Williamsburg in Virginia.
[30:29.050 --> 30:32.830]  They look like they're doing things, but it's mostly for show for Westerners.
[30:32.910 --> 30:33.030]  Yeah.
[30:33.130 --> 30:38.110]  You know, that's one of the things I went in there thinking that Pyongyang is a showcase city.
[30:38.170 --> 30:39.170]  It is to a degree.
[30:39.710 --> 30:41.450]  It's where people are better off.
[30:41.470 --> 30:42.550]  We saw a lot of poor people.
[30:42.970 --> 30:44.190]  And they waved at us too.
[30:44.190 --> 30:45.150]  Poor people waved at us.
[30:45.390 --> 30:48.150]  People in the fields didn't seem as happy, definitely.
[30:48.490 --> 30:50.810]  I mean, people in the fields generally don't seem that happy.
[30:51.670 --> 31:05.410]  But I've never seen people work so hard, basically tilling the fields with an ox, going out there at daybreak to watch over a rice field and staying until after the sun went down.
[31:05.850 --> 31:06.890]  People are really trying.
[31:07.030 --> 31:09.990]  It's a hard country to grow crops in.
[31:10.110 --> 31:10.590]  It's mountainous.
[31:10.590 --> 31:13.050]  People farm on the hillsides.
[31:14.090 --> 31:15.750]  So you come to appreciate that.
[31:15.850 --> 31:26.670]  But insofar as the actual city itself of Pyongyang, yeah, people are in better shape there, but it is most definitely not staged.
[31:26.930 --> 31:30.730]  That's something that we learned as soon as we came in from the airport.
[31:30.730 --> 31:31.710]  We were there at night.
[31:31.710 --> 31:35.170]  And I saw all this activity, all these people.
[31:35.290 --> 31:35.730]  It was dark.
[31:35.870 --> 31:39.630]  There were no lights on, except for maybe lights in apartment buildings.
[31:40.010 --> 31:43.590]  But people were filling the streets, going back and forth, doing various things.
[31:43.770 --> 31:47.810]  I had been under the impression that the town was a ghost town, that there was nobody there.
[31:47.970 --> 31:51.010]  There were just big streets and empty sidewalks.
[31:51.670 --> 31:53.110]  And nothing could be further from the truth.
[31:53.290 --> 31:54.330]  It was filled with people.
[31:54.510 --> 31:58.750]  Another thing that I was told was that the metro, the metro is a complete farce.
[31:58.830 --> 32:01.790]  There is actually just two stations that anybody ever sees.
[32:02.690 --> 32:04.270]  And they have people...
[32:04.270 --> 32:05.170]  Actually, I was told this.
[32:05.350 --> 32:11.370]  They have people come in and pretend to be passengers and go up to the top of the escalator and then come back down again.
[32:11.950 --> 32:15.830]  And if you're really good, you can figure out that they're staging the whole thing.
[32:16.770 --> 32:18.130]  Folks, that is just not the case.
[32:18.130 --> 32:19.950]  This is a real metro with real people.
[32:19.950 --> 32:23.390]  We saw people for blocks walking towards the metro entrance.
[32:23.530 --> 32:24.850]  There was no barricades or anything like that.
[32:24.890 --> 32:25.930]  These are real people with children.
[32:25.930 --> 32:28.430]  And they went on to other stations.
[32:29.010 --> 32:29.410]  It's...
[32:29.410 --> 32:30.470]  Deal with it.
[32:30.550 --> 32:31.130]  It's a real metro.
[32:32.290 --> 32:38.830]  Everything else I was told that was going to be staged or didn't really exist turned out not to really be true.
[32:39.010 --> 32:42.250]  Now, it's not saying that there aren't elements of truth in the propaganda we're fed.
[32:43.010 --> 32:47.810]  But I just don't believe that everything we are told is necessarily true.
[32:48.670 --> 32:49.610]  So what did you eat?
[32:50.110 --> 32:50.710]  More detail.
[32:50.990 --> 33:01.010]  Well, I don't want to go into too much detail about the food there because obviously food is a sticky issue because so many people had a very bad time of it over the past 10 or so years.
[33:01.950 --> 33:04.090]  And obviously, we were very well taken care of.
[33:04.250 --> 33:07.530]  That is one thing that North Koreans are known for is being very good hosts.
[33:07.650 --> 33:10.370]  They will make sure that your every need is accommodated.
[33:11.990 --> 33:16.330]  So, you know, we had three meals a day, which I imagine is more than most people would get.
[33:16.510 --> 33:17.370]  It's more than I get here.
[33:19.670 --> 33:21.890]  I'd like to see where the common people go.
[33:22.390 --> 33:24.670]  You know, obviously, that's something that they're not quite ready for yet.
[33:24.670 --> 33:27.210]  But I imagine it would be an interesting experience.
[33:27.950 --> 33:32.950]  I just, you know, I just hope the day comes when we can be friends with these people because there's a lot they have to offer.
[33:33.450 --> 33:36.710]  And in fact, let me show you something I have right now.
[33:36.710 --> 33:39.990]  Now, I got some recordings off the radio when I was over there.
[33:42.390 --> 33:43.870]  And they're really into music.
[33:44.030 --> 33:44.790]  They're into music a lot.
[33:44.890 --> 33:49.810]  Of course, a lot of it is adulation of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il and things like that.
[33:49.910 --> 33:51.270]  But they really go into opera.
[33:51.370 --> 33:56.810]  You wouldn't expect this, but the Korean people are very much into opera and very much into all sorts of other types of music.
[33:56.990 --> 34:02.390]  What I'm going to play now is just a brief excerpt from the radio station there, which I should point out, by the way.
[34:02.950 --> 34:04.010]  I was in Pyongyang.
[34:04.010 --> 34:09.610]  I counted this radio station on no less than 17 different frequencies in Pyongyang.
[34:10.290 --> 34:16.110]  And I only heard one other program, which was coming in faintly, which was programming pretty much the same stuff.
[34:16.270 --> 34:18.510]  So that's pretty much how their radio is set up.
[34:18.750 --> 34:25.130]  Only one television station, which plays a lot of the same music to video that you'll hear.
[34:25.610 --> 34:29.850]  And on the weekends, there are three stations, but they all pretty much play similar things.
[34:31.170 --> 34:34.730]  So you'll also hear some time beeps on this, because it was recorded on the hour.
[34:34.990 --> 34:38.310]  And then we'll come back and take phone calls at 212-209-2900.
[34:38.310 --> 34:38.330]  .
[34:38.330 --> 34:38.990]  .
[34:38.990 --> 34:39.070]  .
[34:39.070 --> 34:39.290]  .
[34:39.290 --> 34:39.310]  .
[35:16.700 --> 35:17.140]  .
[35:17.140 --> 35:17.160]  .
[35:17.160 --> 35:18.020]  .
[35:18.020 --> 35:18.580]  .
[35:54.040 --> 36:03.060]  Barsher, Ramadan, Halifa, Abu, Janahe, Deringiarab, Saucyide, Indin공동체, Indinofa, Biso가 해당 부문 일꾼에게 전달했습니다.
[36:04.080 --> 36:12.600]  위대한 용도자 김종일 동지께 태양절에 즈음해서 우리나라를 방문하고 있는 몽골정부문화대표단이 선물을 드렸습니다.
[36:12.600 --> 36:28.640]  WI대한 용도자 김정일 동지께 드리는 선물을 대표단 단장인 스터모로 오치루 교육문화 및 과학성 부상이 12일 김용대 조선민주주민공화국 최고인민회의 상임위원회 부위원장에게 전달했습니다.
[36:29.320 --> 36:40.140]  WI대한 용도자 김정일 동지께 태양절에 즈음하여 우리나라를 방문하고 있는 몽골 다르한올도 대표단과 어보르 한가이도 대표단이 선물을 드렸습니다.
[36:40.140 --> 36:53.040]  WI대한 용도자 김정일 동지께 드리는 선물들을 대표단 단장들인 드 하이안 헤아르바 행정장관과 부 에르덴 빌레그트 행정장관이 해당 부문 일꾼에게 전달했습니다.
[36:53.460 --> 36:58.560]  한편 몽골 다르한올도 김정일 유치원에서 보내온 선물이 전달됐습니다.
[36:59.120 --> 37:06.100]  WI대한 수령 김일성 동지의 부류의 고전적 노작들을 연대순에 따라서 체계적으로 전면적으로...
[37:06.100 --> 37:14.560]  Okay, that's basically... I guess this is a newscast that we were hearing there from the Pyongyang radio station over there in North Korea.
[37:14.700 --> 37:19.890]  But you might have heard a lot of references to Kim Jong-il, the current leader, and Kim Il-sung, the original leader.
[37:20.940 --> 37:22.930]  It's what they talk about all the time.
[37:23.160 --> 37:25.040]  A lot of stuff I never knew about the two of them.
[37:25.520 --> 37:25.930]  Like what?
[37:26.460 --> 37:27.260]  Oh, well...
[37:27.260 --> 37:28.000]  You couldn't understand that.
[37:28.000 --> 37:32.580]  If any of our listeners did understand that, though, please let us know because we'd like to hear a translation.
[37:32.930 --> 37:33.640]  Now here's...
[37:33.640 --> 37:34.450]  One of our listeners...
[37:34.450 --> 37:34.820]  I'm sorry.
[37:35.040 --> 37:35.980]  Your mic is not on.
[37:36.040 --> 37:36.300]  There you go.
[37:36.460 --> 37:42.410]  One of our listeners did kindly provide a translation of the music we played last week, which was also from North Korea.
[37:42.500 --> 37:43.410]  And what did it entail?
[37:43.600 --> 37:51.080]  Well, you have it in your pile of papers, but it was about the wonders that are the leaders of the country.
[37:51.080 --> 37:58.040]  Yeah, you know, I guess it's kind of like listening to a religious radio station where it's all about, you know, praising him and all that kind of thing.
[37:58.430 --> 38:03.820]  One interesting thing, the very beginning of the piece we played was actually an excerpt from a North Korean numbers station.
[38:03.820 --> 38:05.410]  So it was just numbers being said.
[38:05.600 --> 38:10.080]  Well, I didn't hear any numbers stations, but I did get a hold of a lot of different publications...
[38:10.080 --> 38:12.300]  Well, not a lot of different publications, but various...
[38:12.300 --> 38:14.220]  I got the Pyongyang Metro Guide here.
[38:14.320 --> 38:16.320]  Anybody want to take a look at that here, Jim, since you're the Metro Guide?
[38:17.760 --> 38:22.960]  And here's an excerpt from the Pyongyang Times, which is a weekly publication in English.
[38:23.500 --> 38:26.600]  Now, they have a different year system over there as well.
[38:26.780 --> 38:32.760]  It's April 14th, 2007 was actually translated to April 14th, Juche 96.
[38:32.980 --> 38:37.020]  Juche is the philosophy of self-reliance that the North Korean people believe in.
[38:37.300 --> 38:41.680]  And ever since the birth of Kim Il-sung, it's been numbered by that number.
[38:41.680 --> 38:47.520]  So the year 100, and I think four more years, will be a big celebration.
[38:47.740 --> 38:52.020]  So assuming things are still the way they are, that might be a time to book your tickets.
[38:53.200 --> 38:55.390]  Now, this is from a story on the front page.
[38:55.480 --> 38:57.980]  Father of Socialist Korea was the banner headline.
[38:58.300 --> 39:09.430]  The Korean people are marking the 95th anniversary of the birth of President Kim Il-sung on April 15th while working to usher in a heyday of Socialist Korea under the banner of Sunggun, which is another one of their philosophies.
[39:09.430 --> 39:16.000]  And it's great how they throw in Western terminology like heyday, and I wouldn't expect to see that kind of a word in a publication like this.
[39:16.640 --> 39:28.930]  Kim Il-sung, whom the Korean people acclaimed as the great leader for the first time in their 5,000-year history as the father of a socialist Korea, basically goes on like that for pages and pages, various things.
[39:29.700 --> 39:32.960]  Not much in the way of international news or things like that.
[39:33.100 --> 39:35.160]  There's an article about Japan on the back.
[39:35.480 --> 39:38.080]  Yeah, newspapers comment on Japan's true intention.
[39:38.080 --> 39:39.560]  I'll just read you the first paragraph or so.
[39:40.430 --> 39:53.980]  Owing to the insolent attitude of Japan, the prospects of the six-party talks and the implementation of the agreement are getting bleak, and DPRK, which is Democratic People's Republic of Korea, dash Japan relations are going from bad to worse.
[39:54.320 --> 40:03.560]  In connection with this, the April 7th edition of Rodong Sinmun carried a commentary titled, On the Stand of Japan, Wet Blanket of the Six-Way Talks.
[40:05.500 --> 40:18.640]  Following our excerpts from it, clinging to the abduction issue that has been already settled, thanks to the generosity and sincerity of the DPRK, Japan is deliberately laying obstacles to the six-party talks while putting a break on the implementation of the September 19 joint state.
[40:18.700 --> 40:20.980]  It just goes on and on and on about various things like that.
[40:21.060 --> 40:25.120]  There's an article here, headline is, DPRK defeats Taiwan, but it doesn't say in what.
[40:26.100 --> 40:32.410]  If you look a little further, you'll realize that it was an Asian regional women's football qualifier in Group B for the Olympic Games.
[40:33.140 --> 40:33.950]  Well, that's good.
[40:34.060 --> 40:35.240]  I guess you couldn't fit all that in the headline.
[40:35.890 --> 40:40.460]  Also, I've got, I'll pass this around too, the foreign trade of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
[40:40.460 --> 40:44.080]  You might find some interesting things in there about various things that they're producing.
[40:44.280 --> 40:45.560]  Is this like the SkyMall catalog?
[40:45.740 --> 40:46.620]  I can buy things from it?
[40:46.620 --> 40:49.410]  You might be able to buy things if it's heavy machinery you're looking for.
[40:49.930 --> 40:54.120]  Just to jump back to where you went, did you visit any border towns or the demilitarized zone?
[40:54.240 --> 41:01.930]  Oh yeah, Kaesong, which is the old capital of Korea and was captured by North Korea in the Korean War.
[41:02.450 --> 41:04.060]  It used to be in South Korea, now it's in North Korea.
[41:04.780 --> 41:08.450]  And we went to the actual border, the demilitarized zone.
[41:08.520 --> 41:11.760]  I was very disappointed, very disappointed that the South Koreans were not there.
[41:11.930 --> 41:13.040]  They weren't at the border.
[41:13.200 --> 41:18.580]  We went there, we were looking for them and there were North Koreans there and they were so nice, they were so friendly to us.
[41:18.860 --> 41:22.540]  They wanted cigarettes, So I just wanted to wave and pose for pictures and things like that.
[41:22.740 --> 41:26.760]  Now, if you look at them from the South Korean side, they look menacing and they look like, you know, evil soldiers.
[41:27.140 --> 41:31.720]  But if you ever look at a South Korean soldier, whenever they decide to come out, it was raining.
[41:31.820 --> 41:32.820]  Maybe they don't come out in the rain.
[41:32.960 --> 41:33.800]  I'm not sure how it works.
[41:34.080 --> 41:37.200]  But the pose they take, the pose they take is so silly.
[41:37.480 --> 41:43.720]  They basically, they spread their legs apart, they clench their fists, and they have this like growling look on their face.
[41:44.360 --> 41:45.020]  I'm not kidding.
[41:45.160 --> 41:46.280]  This is really how they look.
[41:46.620 --> 41:48.300]  And I wish I could have gotten the picture of this.
[41:48.300 --> 41:50.620]  I'm sure if you look around on the net, you'll find things like that.
[41:50.700 --> 41:59.960]  Now, imagine if those were the North Koreans doing that, and the South Koreans were the ones who just were dressed up in uniforms, how we would play off that situation and make them look like complete crazy people.
[42:00.800 --> 42:04.600]  There's another thing that they do, too, which I thought was kind of amazing.
[42:04.660 --> 42:09.100]  I saw this in the recent documentary on National Geographic Channel.
[42:10.000 --> 42:16.910]  They basically showed these South Koreans closing the door of the building that sort of is in both North Korea and South Korea.
[42:16.910 --> 42:22.360]  It's that building you can go into and walk to the other side of the room and say, hey, I'm in the other Korea now.
[42:22.500 --> 42:25.460]  And everybody has a good laugh, and then you go back to the country you're supposed to be in.
[42:26.980 --> 42:31.560]  So apparently they have to lock the door of the other side whenever they let tourists in.
[42:31.780 --> 42:33.480]  So the South Korean soldiers do that.
[42:33.560 --> 42:34.720]  They lock the door to North Korea.
[42:35.000 --> 42:40.760]  And when they do that, another South Korean holds on to them to keep them from being sucked into North Korea.
[42:40.760 --> 42:41.410]  I'm not kidding.
[42:41.410 --> 42:42.600]  This is what they really do.
[42:43.120 --> 42:44.980]  Now, I don't think there's ever been a case where...
[42:44.980 --> 42:49.840]  I mean, there have been abductions, yes, but I don't think there's ever been a case of a South Korean soldier being pulled out of that room into North Korea.
[42:49.910 --> 42:51.390]  It just seems so bizarre and absurd.
[42:51.640 --> 42:56.930]  And it's something that we never talk about, even though it's the people that we're friendly with who are acting like that.
[42:57.930 --> 42:58.240]  Arseny?
[42:58.320 --> 43:03.780]  I forgot to ask before, but when people were waving at you, were they waving with the inside of their palm facing them?
[43:03.950 --> 43:05.340]  No, they were waving that way.
[43:05.340 --> 43:06.360]  But isn't that extremely rude?
[43:06.910 --> 43:07.220]  No.
[43:08.680 --> 43:10.640]  No, you're thinking of the come here gesture.
[43:10.820 --> 43:17.600]  You're not supposed to summon somebody by moving your fingers towards you with your hand facing up.
[43:17.890 --> 43:21.390]  You actually do it with your hand facing down, and you summon them down.
[43:21.430 --> 43:24.120]  I didn't summon anybody, so I didn't have to worry about that.
[43:24.200 --> 43:26.740]  But if you're waving at people, no, just universally this works.
[43:26.840 --> 43:27.890]  You just back and forth wave.
[43:28.060 --> 43:29.960]  And we had no idea what to expect.
[43:30.120 --> 43:32.260]  When we first started doing this, we didn't know what these...
[43:32.260 --> 43:33.460]  They throw stones at us.
[43:33.910 --> 43:34.760]  We were scared.
[43:34.760 --> 43:35.640]  We were really scared.
[43:36.320 --> 43:47.040]  And just to see these people who look a little bit intimidated because this big bus is driving down their dirt road for the first time, just to see them break out in smiles and start waving back, it was just one of the most incredible experiences I've ever had.
[43:47.300 --> 43:51.720]  And then we just happened to go through K-Song where they were practicing some kind of singing competition.
[43:52.320 --> 43:53.640]  And this might have been staged.
[43:53.740 --> 43:55.780]  It seems to have got a lot of trouble to stage it for a single bus.
[43:56.440 --> 43:59.540]  But they all sort of marched in formation as we went by.
[43:59.680 --> 44:01.220]  And then a few hours later, we were coming back.
[44:01.220 --> 44:02.100]  They were all still there.
[44:02.120 --> 44:04.800]  So I think they were pretty much practicing the entire day, and they did it again.
[44:04.800 --> 44:07.440]  And I got so many pictures.
[44:07.440 --> 44:08.380]  I've got video.
[44:08.600 --> 44:09.260]  No restrictions.
[44:09.260 --> 44:13.120]  We were able to videotape all kinds of things and record all kinds of things.
[44:13.300 --> 44:13.660]  It was great.
[44:14.000 --> 44:15.460]  Totally not what I was expecting.
[44:15.800 --> 44:25.680]  But again, keep in mind, this is just me going over there as a tourist looking at various interesting things and commenting on those small things.
[44:26.180 --> 44:28.760]  It's got nothing to do with the world situation.
[44:28.760 --> 44:31.280]  It's not what I went over there to figure out.
[44:31.340 --> 44:34.440]  And it's not something I think I could figure out by a trip like this.
[44:34.880 --> 44:35.820]  Bernie, you've been awfully quiet.
[44:35.880 --> 44:36.480]  Are you in shock?
[44:37.260 --> 44:38.020]  Not in shock.
[44:38.120 --> 44:39.780]  But I'm curious about your minder.
[44:40.880 --> 44:42.760]  How many minders did you have?
[44:42.760 --> 44:44.280]  And what were they like?
[44:44.440 --> 44:47.360]  Well, you know, I don't know if it's really fair to call them minders like that.
[44:47.960 --> 44:54.500]  I've never been on a controlled tour before, but many people who were on our group were.
[44:54.940 --> 44:56.740]  And they say, you know, it's not really that much different.
[44:56.880 --> 45:01.580]  They just tell you where you're going to be this day, what museums you're going to see, what time you have to wake up, what time you're having dinner.
[45:02.140 --> 45:03.720]  And it was pretty much like that.
[45:04.180 --> 45:05.560]  We weren't being monitored.
[45:05.560 --> 45:07.280]  We weren't being interrogated.
[45:08.040 --> 45:13.280]  We could pretty much, you know, take pictures of whatever it is we want to take pictures of.
[45:13.640 --> 45:14.700]  I didn't get a feeling.
[45:14.960 --> 45:16.100]  I mean, I know we were being controlled.
[45:16.100 --> 45:19.680]  We couldn't just walk away and go any place we wanted in the town.
[45:21.400 --> 45:25.440]  But I didn't get a feeling that they were overly suspicious of us.
[45:25.620 --> 45:27.380]  It seemed pretty cordial and pretty informal.
[45:28.540 --> 45:30.420]  Did you bring any literature with you?
[45:30.680 --> 45:31.020]  No.
[45:31.200 --> 45:32.180]  I mean, what's the point?
[45:33.020 --> 45:39.200]  I wasn't there to provoke arguments as far as which ideology is better than which other ideology.
[45:39.360 --> 45:40.760]  I was there to listen to their point of view.
[45:40.900 --> 45:44.320]  And when you go to somebody's house, you're respective of their customs.
[45:44.740 --> 45:45.080]  It's a simple of that.
[45:45.080 --> 45:47.380]  I thought you could bring some copies of 2600 magazines.
[45:47.560 --> 45:49.300]  Yeah, you know, I don't think that would have been very...
[45:49.300 --> 45:50.240]  No, I don't think...
[45:50.240 --> 45:51.660]  I didn't want to get into that.
[45:52.180 --> 45:53.560]  Although I'm sure it would be of interest.
[45:54.260 --> 45:56.800]  And I did notice a few computers of theirs.
[45:56.960 --> 46:01.280]  They have an internet, but it's, in their words, an internet that connects only to Korea.
[46:02.240 --> 46:06.820]  And I noticed that they were running Windows 98, which I thought was interesting.
[46:07.160 --> 46:09.680]  I'm just looking at this book on the Pyongyang Metro.
[46:09.720 --> 46:13.600]  And what's interesting about it is the printing technologies used.
[46:13.720 --> 46:19.000]  They don't make books like this anymore in the rest of the world.
[46:19.000 --> 46:26.500]  It's, I don't know if it's not made by computer or what it is, but just, it looks old, even though it says right on the back 2004.
[46:26.780 --> 46:29.800]  Yeah, it looks like the sort of magazine you would expect to see in the 60s and 70s.
[46:29.800 --> 46:31.360]  Well, could you describe a little more what that means?
[46:32.040 --> 46:32.600]  It looks...
[46:32.600 --> 46:34.300]  Just the image quality, the type of print.
[46:34.300 --> 46:35.640]  And it's hard to describe.
[46:35.820 --> 46:38.120]  I don't know how to describe it, but the image quality isn't very good.
[46:38.200 --> 46:42.440]  And it looks like a magazine that you would find, you know, in the 60s or 70s.
[46:42.480 --> 46:46.960]  Images and text are separate on the page, usually either flush left or flush right.
[46:48.060 --> 46:50.240]  Anybody who's into printing should know that.
[46:50.340 --> 46:53.140]  I don't doubt that they're not using the latest in desktop publishing software.
[46:54.140 --> 46:55.660]  I'm not criticizing.
[46:55.660 --> 46:57.760]  I'm just saying it's something you don't see anymore.
[46:57.780 --> 46:59.060]  Yeah, and, you know, that's...
[46:59.060 --> 47:06.520]  Your point is well taken, because you're in a place like that, and you realize that, yes, they do not have the same things that we have.
[47:06.920 --> 47:19.980]  But in some ways, there's something about being in a capital city where it's quiet at night, where you can hear a dog barking miles away, or a baby crying, or something like that, where there isn't air pollution, where there isn't the constant sound of traffic,
[47:20.200 --> 47:22.600]  where it's dark at night, where you can see the stars.
[47:23.180 --> 47:24.080]  I mean, that's...
[47:24.080 --> 47:28.520]  Obviously, there's a trade-off for things like that, but still, it's a way of life they're used to.
[47:28.660 --> 47:32.400]  It's a way of life that they're working with, doing the best they can.
[47:32.400 --> 47:36.040]  And it's just a very interesting perspective, a very different way of seeing things.
[47:37.820 --> 47:38.180]  Okay.
[47:39.000 --> 47:45.280]  I don't know if we've exhausted the subject, but of course, if you have any questions about North Korea or anything like that, feel free to give us a call.
[47:45.500 --> 47:47.020]  How can I see your photographs?
[47:47.660 --> 47:48.880]  Well, I have to go through them all.
[47:49.000 --> 47:52.420]  I've got so many of them, and I will be doing something with them online.
[47:52.440 --> 47:57.120]  It's going to take a little while to coordinate them and organize them properly and things like that.
[47:58.040 --> 47:59.680]  But they will be available.
[47:59.880 --> 48:00.280]  They will be.
[48:00.880 --> 48:01.800]  There's just so much.
[48:01.880 --> 48:02.380]  It's overload.
[48:02.560 --> 48:02.940]  It really is.
[48:03.060 --> 48:06.220]  But I had no problems taking anything out.
[48:06.320 --> 48:07.340]  A couple of people did, actually.
[48:07.420 --> 48:08.180]  A couple of people on the train.
[48:08.300 --> 48:12.140]  We took a train out, which is something else that is a pretty rare thing to be able to do.
[48:13.360 --> 48:19.080]  And at the border, some of the border patrol guards wanted to look at people's cameras.
[48:19.460 --> 48:25.940]  And if they saw pictures that they didn't think were acceptable, they asked them to be deleted, which I'm not used to.
[48:25.940 --> 48:27.100]  But it did happen to a few people.
[48:27.340 --> 48:27.920]  I was lucky.
[48:28.320 --> 48:29.700]  You know, they wanded you.
[48:29.960 --> 48:34.240]  They had a wand, and they waved the wand to see if you had any metal objects on you.
[48:34.260 --> 48:35.500]  I'm not quite sure what they were looking for.
[48:35.540 --> 48:36.040]  Maybe cameras.
[48:36.200 --> 48:40.400]  But they only wanded me up to my waist, and my camera was in my jacket pocket.
[48:40.800 --> 48:44.480]  And so they never even found my camera, let alone start looking at any of my pictures.
[48:44.700 --> 48:47.160]  And even if they had looked at my pictures, I had other memory cards.
[48:47.280 --> 48:49.360]  We never asked anybody else to look at other memory cards.
[48:49.520 --> 48:52.660]  It wasn't nearly as thorough a search as I had been led to believe.
[48:52.660 --> 48:57.940]  It's a lot more of a search than I'd ever seen, but it was a lot less than I was led to expect.
[48:58.160 --> 49:01.540]  And I got everything I took I was able to take out of the country.
[49:01.980 --> 49:03.640]  So I was very pleased with that.
[49:03.780 --> 49:04.520]  I have everything.
[49:04.640 --> 49:06.420]  I've got three hours of videotape.
[49:06.480 --> 49:09.800]  I filmed in the stadium during the mass games.
[49:09.980 --> 49:13.400]  I filmed some of their television programs and just some street scenes as well.
[49:13.620 --> 49:15.260]  And nobody said I couldn't.
[49:15.360 --> 49:16.720]  So it was really, it was kind of nice.
[49:17.880 --> 49:23.520]  Can we talk about one other thing other than North Korea and the China nightmare and other things like that?
[49:23.920 --> 49:25.460]  There's a thing going on in Manhattan.
[49:25.620 --> 49:29.480]  So speaking about cities without cars and no air pollution and things like that.
[49:30.820 --> 49:36.540]  So apparently Mayor Bloomberg has done a flip on this, on this, what do you call this?
[49:36.880 --> 49:37.660]  Congestion tax?
[49:37.800 --> 49:38.820]  Is that what it's supposed to be called?
[49:38.820 --> 49:39.420]  Congestion charging, yeah.
[49:39.420 --> 49:43.280]  $8 fee for cars to drive into the city.
[49:43.860 --> 49:47.340]  And the way they're going to do this, this is what kind of concerns me.
[49:47.420 --> 49:48.440]  I know you love the idea, Mike.
[49:48.540 --> 49:58.540]  But what concerns me is that the way they're going to be doing this, they're going to have these devices up all throughout the city that take pictures of your license plate and bill you accordingly.
[49:58.820 --> 50:04.300]  And the thing is, unlike using E-ZPass, where you go through a toll booth, you generally know where those devices are.
[50:05.200 --> 50:08.020]  They could be anywhere, but they're at the toll booth, so you know they're there.
[50:08.020 --> 50:13.220]  Here, though, these devices are taking pictures of your license plates all throughout the city.
[50:13.360 --> 50:15.140]  Who knows what else they're taking pictures of?
[50:15.160 --> 50:19.300]  And I'm sure that's going to be used for other purposes other than charging you that congestion tax.
[50:19.520 --> 50:30.720]  According to the document, it says, The technological backbone of the system would be E-ZPass, which relies on high-speed sensors and is used by more than 70% of New York-area drivers.
[50:30.760 --> 50:33.500]  The charge would appear on drivers' E-ZPass statements.
[50:35.000 --> 50:45.200]  One of the big points I heard also was what Emmanuel said is that you would not be required to have an E-ZPass and you would be sent a bill if you didn't have one based on the pictures that the camera took.
[50:45.340 --> 50:46.500]  It would generate a bill for you.
[50:46.600 --> 50:47.920]  Yeah, because it's taking a picture of your license plate.
[50:48.060 --> 50:49.460]  That's not how E-ZPass generally works.
[50:49.580 --> 50:52.380]  No, but E-ZPass does have cameras also.
[50:52.880 --> 50:55.560]  They have cameras on all the sensors.
[50:55.680 --> 50:58.880]  Right, that's for verification, but it's not part of the E-ZPass system itself.
[50:59.080 --> 51:01.360]  I mean, E-ZPass will work without that, is what I'm saying.
[51:01.360 --> 51:10.600]  Right, but they can be used in the same way that you're referring to, not related to charging people for entering midtown Manhattan.
[51:10.740 --> 51:19.320]  But there's also traffic cameras and everything on a lot of the highways that you'll see and cameras used for other purposes that can probably also take just as good of a picture of your license plate.
[51:19.500 --> 51:29.160]  Those cameras generally took pictures to see if there was congestion ahead, but this is really refined to take a picture of your license plate and cross-reference it to a database.
[51:29.160 --> 51:30.320]  I'm just a little concerned about that.
[51:30.400 --> 51:31.360]  Jim, then we're going to take some phone calls.
[51:31.540 --> 51:44.120]  According to what I read, the camera-slash-E-ZPass interface is designed to keep from billing people who come in on a bridge or tunnel below 96th Street and then take the east or west side highways north out of the city.
[51:44.260 --> 51:53.260]  In other words, if you get off, say, the Brooklyn Bridge, there may be an E-ZPass sensor on the Brooklyn Bridge, but there'll be cameras a block away on every street.
[51:53.460 --> 52:01.160]  And if you take any route except one that leads you right back onto the highway heading north, then you'll be charged the $8 fee.
[52:01.320 --> 52:03.060]  If you get back on the highway, you won't.
[52:03.300 --> 52:03.500]  Okay.
[52:03.740 --> 52:04.660]  Let's take some phone calls.
[52:04.760 --> 52:10.320]  We're really sorry we went on for so long about North Korea and things like that, but we're running out of time, so let's see if we can get here.
[52:10.400 --> 52:10.680]  Good evening.
[52:10.820 --> 52:11.520]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:12.700 --> 52:13.320]  Speak up.
[52:13.780 --> 52:14.140]  Hello.
[52:14.360 --> 52:14.540]  Hi.
[52:14.580 --> 52:15.080]  What's on your mind?
[52:15.080 --> 52:15.860]  How are you doing, guys?
[52:16.040 --> 52:20.400]  Very good story, Emmanuel, about bureaucracy in other parts of the world.
[52:20.620 --> 52:23.440]  It reminds me of my boss when he went to his hometown in Italy.
[52:23.680 --> 52:35.480]  He went to the bank at 8.30 in the morning, which the bank stated that this is the hours of operation, and nobody came until maybe 9.15, and when he asked the guy, the first employee to come, what's going on?
[52:35.600 --> 52:42.300]  He speaks a little Italian, so the guy would put his hand as if, why are you in a hurry off or something like that?
[52:42.300 --> 52:44.820]  So it's not just even the third world.
[52:45.000 --> 52:47.840]  It's everywhere outside the U.S., you know.
[52:48.340 --> 52:53.100]  On the other hand, last Thanksgiving, I went to Florida on JetBlue.
[52:53.620 --> 52:57.380]  I flew the day before, and I came on Thanksgiving.
[52:57.820 --> 53:09.300]  The guy next to me who was traveling with me, he kept his cell phone open throughout the two flights, and hardly there was any signal above 15,000 feet.
[53:09.640 --> 53:17.260]  There were maybe one bar or two bars 5,000 feet until landing or, you know, after taking off.
[53:17.400 --> 53:24.120]  And he tried making so many times phone calls, even during the 5,000 feet, and none went through.
[53:25.480 --> 53:36.280]  Because I remember you spoke, like, a few shows before about the possibility of doing that, and especially with that 9.11 controversy about the phone calls and stuff.
[53:36.500 --> 53:37.820]  So do you have any idea?
[53:37.820 --> 53:40.040]  Could that be his own phone?
[53:40.180 --> 53:40.860]  Could it be JetBlue?
[53:40.900 --> 53:42.680]  I mean, it didn't go through.
[53:42.900 --> 53:45.100]  I mean, he kept it through the whole flight.
[53:45.100 --> 53:46.020]  Yeah, well, I imagine.
[53:46.020 --> 53:56.200]  I imagine that it's got something to do with the fact that he's that far above the actual towers, and he can't probably get a full signal all the time.
[53:56.220 --> 54:02.200]  Well, keep in mind that the cell phone networks aren't designed for your phone to see that many cells at the same exact time.
[54:02.340 --> 54:11.440]  And so it's kind of going to be hit and miss, because it's not designed for that, and there's no real good prediction for how it's going to perform when you're operating in a situation like that.
[54:11.500 --> 54:12.440]  So it seems to be hit and miss.
[54:12.440 --> 54:17.240]  When you're at lower altitudes, of course, your probability is higher of the call going through.
[54:17.380 --> 54:18.840]  Was the phone next to a window?
[54:19.180 --> 54:19.380]  Yeah.
[54:20.160 --> 54:21.760]  Look what else I got in North Korea.
[54:22.240 --> 54:24.140]  Vodka in a plastic bag.
[54:24.260 --> 54:24.720]  Isn't that cool?
[54:25.380 --> 54:29.450]  Yeah, it's best vodka imported, and it's in a little 4...
[54:30.020 --> 54:30.540]  No, wait.
[54:30.640 --> 54:35.100]  It's a 50-milliliter plastic bag here kind of thing.
[54:35.160 --> 54:36.220]  You just can't get anywhere.
[54:36.900 --> 54:40.020]  All sorts of little surprises there, and the place is full of them.
[54:40.400 --> 54:41.460]  Let's see if we can quickly get another one.
[54:41.520 --> 54:41.740]  Good evening.
[54:41.780 --> 54:42.220]  You're on the air.
[54:42.440 --> 54:43.100]  Yes, Emmanuel.
[54:43.500 --> 54:44.900]  I'm glad to hear you were over there.
[54:44.960 --> 54:47.500]  I was over there with the European Union in 1999.
[54:47.960 --> 54:48.200]  Really?
[54:48.300 --> 54:48.740]  In North Korea?
[54:48.960 --> 54:49.180]  Yeah.
[54:50.140 --> 54:52.380]  And I had an enjoyable experience.
[54:52.980 --> 54:56.800]  Another place I went to where I think you should go is Cuba, where you belong.
[54:56.920 --> 54:57.780]  All right, all right.
[54:57.980 --> 54:59.440]  We went to Cuba, you moron.
[55:00.340 --> 55:01.160]  Ah, pay attention.
[55:01.820 --> 55:02.580]  Here, listen to this.
[55:11.380 --> 55:26.680]  Okay, I don't know what all that was about, but this song was like the theme of North Korea, and I heard this so many different times, on TV and the radio.
[55:27.100 --> 55:28.680]  Let's see if we can fit in one more phone call.
[55:29.280 --> 55:29.920]  Good evening.
[55:30.100 --> 55:30.960]  You're on the radio.
[55:31.640 --> 55:32.340]  Yes, Bernie.
[55:32.480 --> 55:33.320]  Did you get my DVD?
[55:33.780 --> 55:34.220]  Oh, boy.
[55:34.560 --> 55:35.160]  Good evening.
[55:35.260 --> 55:36.160]  You're on the radio.
[55:37.580 --> 55:38.280]  Speak up, please.
[55:38.500 --> 55:38.760]  Hi.
[55:38.980 --> 55:44.200]  A couple of my calls, about five or six of them, just went right to silence after two or three rings.
[55:44.200 --> 55:46.200]  Okay, well, make this one count for something more, then.
[55:46.280 --> 55:46.760]  What's on your mind?
[55:47.060 --> 55:49.740]  You know, I have a question about privacy with printer cartridges.
[55:50.020 --> 55:50.620]  Okay, quickly.
[55:50.820 --> 55:52.840]  I have a printer that was giving me free with a $100 rebate.
[55:53.460 --> 55:58.960]  Anyway, the printer cartridges come with these envelopes to send back the old ones to recycle them.
[55:59.060 --> 56:05.720]  And is it possible that there could be information stored on these printer cartridges that they're using for maybe marketing or something else like that?
[56:05.720 --> 56:09.260]  But, I mean, it kind of makes me worried thinking about what I'm sending back.
[56:09.260 --> 56:11.620]  I mean, if it's storing anything that I print, or...
[56:11.620 --> 56:14.440]  I mean, is that completely me being paranoid, or...
[56:14.440 --> 56:16.060]  Is this just an inkjet printer?
[56:16.520 --> 56:17.460]  Oh, I believe so.
[56:17.720 --> 56:20.140]  They probably just want to reuse the cartridges.
[56:20.340 --> 56:21.600]  That's why they'll refill them.
[56:22.520 --> 56:26.780]  Yeah, I don't think it would store, like, a print, your document that you printed.
[56:26.960 --> 56:31.460]  It may store information about how much, you know, cyan versus magenta you use or something like that.
[56:31.460 --> 56:32.360]  One more call, really quickly.
[56:36.560 --> 56:37.840]  Good evening, you're on off the hook.
[56:39.060 --> 56:39.640]  Speak up.
[56:39.960 --> 56:41.280]  Hey, how are you doing?
[56:41.480 --> 56:42.240]  Okay, you've got to speak faster.
[56:43.400 --> 56:49.820]  Okay, so, I have a suggestion for your quandary with the airline.
[56:50.100 --> 56:54.100]  I had a similar situation of over a lot less money with Delta last year.
[56:54.280 --> 56:55.160]  Okay, you've got 15 seconds.
[56:55.860 --> 57:01.560]  Okay, when I came back, basically, what I'm suggesting is stop your charge on the credit card.
[57:01.740 --> 57:03.540]  The credit card company backed me up.
[57:03.640 --> 57:05.360]  Yeah, you know, I understand what you're saying.
[57:05.720 --> 57:06.400]  But it was my fault.
[57:06.620 --> 57:07.280]  I messed up.
[57:07.360 --> 57:08.400]  I didn't look at my itinerary.
[57:08.600 --> 57:09.280]  I chose Air China.
[57:09.500 --> 57:09.940]  My fault.
[57:10.340 --> 57:11.220]  Listen, folks, we're out of time.
[57:11.360 --> 57:12.780]  OTH at 2600.com.
[57:12.980 --> 57:13.680]  Write to us.
[57:13.840 --> 57:14.720]  Thanks, everybody, for listening.
[57:14.960 --> 57:16.380]  We'll talk more about this in weeks ahead.
[57:16.920 --> 57:17.920]  And we'll see you soon.
[57:18.260 --> 57:19.200]  Man, you're listening for Off the Hook.
[57:19.440 --> 57:19.860]  Good night.
[57:19.920 --> 57:21.240]  Let's listen to Korean radio.
[57:49.810 --> 57:51.210]  평양방송입니다.
[57:51.510 --> 57:53.370]  12시를 알려드리겠습니다.
[58:34.820 --> 58:35.460]  We'll be right back.
[59:10.500 --> 59:13.980]  This is the second one.