[00:00.000 --> 00:04.340]  at 229 West 43rd Street between Broadway and 8th Avenue.
[00:04.540 --> 00:12.080]  For more information, call the Popular Education Project to Free the Cuban Five at 718-601-4751.
[00:12.240 --> 00:16.060]  That's 718-601-4751.
[00:16.200 --> 00:17.360]  Free the Cuban Five.
[00:17.540 --> 00:18.640]  Pick it the New York Times.
[00:32.310 --> 00:35.770]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:36.110 --> 00:38.710]  The time is seven o'clock on the nose.
[00:39.030 --> 00:40.970]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:47.630 --> 00:49.590]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:50.090 --> 00:52.190]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.190 --> 00:55.130]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:55.730 --> 00:57.750]  Now I can't make a cough.
[00:58.690 --> 01:00.450]  It couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.050 --> 01:03.030]  But if they could, they would.
[01:03.290 --> 01:05.930]  Bumbley Bumble for the best is best for worst.
[01:06.470 --> 01:08.490]  I hope the fun is good.
[01:08.770 --> 01:09.510]  Bumbley Bumble!
[01:30.490 --> 01:32.910]  And a good evening to everybody out there.
[01:33.190 --> 01:34.450]  The program is off the hook.
[01:34.670 --> 01:35.990]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:36.730 --> 01:45.790]  And it's a rather special edition of this program because there's a good chance that it's the last one.
[01:49.650 --> 02:00.490]  We'll fill you in on what we know so far, and invite your phone calls, and talk about the things that we've been talking about here in this slot now for, I guess, over a year.
[02:01.750 --> 02:02.190]  Technology.
[02:02.270 --> 02:03.870]  In the eyes of the individual.
[02:04.610 --> 02:05.950]  Abuses of technology.
[02:05.950 --> 02:06.070]  technology.
[02:08.290 --> 02:09.970]  At the hands of those in charge.
[02:12.970 --> 02:17.330]  Perhaps there's a subtle irony here that's going way above my head.
[02:21.860 --> 02:23.500]  We'll see if we can figure it out together.
[02:30.060 --> 02:32.720]  To start with, what is going on here?
[02:33.060 --> 02:41.340]  Well, as of next week, according to some people around here, this show is not going to be on anymore.
[02:41.340 --> 02:43.600]  We don't have any more details other than that.
[02:43.700 --> 02:45.720]  There's been no official notification of any sort.
[02:46.220 --> 02:55.620]  Um, and not to, not to get into any kind of internal, uh, internal things here at the radio station because that's not a very good thing to do, I don't think.
[02:56.060 --> 03:00.940]  Other than that, I'll just say that, uh, I'm not exactly ecstatic about this.
[03:01.860 --> 03:06.260]  Welcome, uh, your phone calls, letters, whatever you want to, uh, you want to do.
[03:06.700 --> 03:09.980]  Our phone number here is 212-279-3400.
[03:09.980 --> 03:17.780]  However, if you choose to call during the day to ask just what in the world is going on, the number is 212-279-0707.
[03:17.780 --> 03:19.520]  I've called it many times in the past.
[03:19.980 --> 03:20.460]  Okay.
[03:20.600 --> 03:21.000]  You know what?
[03:21.100 --> 03:22.180]  Uh, don't call those numbers.
[03:22.320 --> 03:23.460]  Those are the old phone numbers.
[03:23.580 --> 03:23.980]  I'm sorry.
[03:24.320 --> 03:29.180]  Anybody who's panicking out there, uh, please don't panic because this is a rebroadcast.
[03:29.300 --> 03:36.460]  It was actually, uh, something that we had back in 1992 when, um, off the hook was threatened with cancellation.
[03:36.860 --> 03:43.680]  Um, only a year after it had begun as a regular series and it was, um, it was a rather sad show.
[03:43.680 --> 03:46.980]  But it, uh, it had a happy ending, which we're going to get to in just a couple of minutes.
[03:47.040 --> 03:50.640]  But first, let me introduce people, uh, this, um, this is Emmanuel here.
[03:50.840 --> 03:53.140]  And, um, I'm joined tonight by Jim.
[03:53.360 --> 03:53.640]  Hello.
[03:54.560 --> 03:55.280]  And Arseny.
[03:55.480 --> 03:55.680]  Hello.
[03:56.360 --> 03:57.320]  Mike over there.
[03:57.660 --> 03:57.840]  Hi.
[03:58.000 --> 03:59.640]  And on the other side of the room, not Kevin.
[03:59.880 --> 04:00.300]  Yeah, hello.
[04:00.300 --> 04:00.360]  Nope.
[04:01.020 --> 04:05.320]  And, uh, yeah, we're in the middle still of our fundraiser, our spring fundraiser here at WBAI.
[04:05.420 --> 04:18.320]  And what we're offering is a full DVD set with, uh, many DVDs, one for each year of audio sound, um, MP3 files that you can listen to on your computer, uh, on, uh, many DVD players.
[04:18.320 --> 04:24.240]  You can play audio and hear all the old shows just the way they, they sounded over the air.
[04:24.980 --> 04:27.600]  And, uh, this, this was one of the most historic ones.
[04:27.800 --> 04:42.400]  I don't know if any of you have ever heard this one before, but basically what happened was, uh, it was, uh, March 25th, 1992 and, um, word had filtered down from the powers that be that, uh, off the hook was going to be replaced with a different show.
[04:42.680 --> 04:45.440]  And, um, it was, it was very short notice.
[04:45.720 --> 04:49.000]  We, we basically were told that, uh, this was going to be the last show most likely.
[04:50.000 --> 04:51.240]  And it was, uh, it was sad.
[04:51.240 --> 04:54.380]  It was a very sad occasion and very baffling.
[04:54.740 --> 05:01.620]  And keep in mind, we had only been on the air for about a year, but just goes to show how, uh, how this kind of thing happens in radio.
[05:01.840 --> 05:04.140]  People, uh, do make changes.
[05:04.420 --> 05:05.080]  Shows go away.
[05:05.180 --> 05:06.240]  Sometimes stations go away.
[05:06.340 --> 05:07.140]  They change formats.
[05:07.420 --> 05:08.840]  All sorts of things can happen.
[05:09.540 --> 05:23.020]  Now, by calling 212-209-2950 and pledging your support to this radio station, you can, uh, place a vote, invest in us, and, uh, um, make the likelihood of, uh, of us going away a lot less.
[05:23.580 --> 05:24.960]  212-209-2950.
[05:25.080 --> 05:30.200]  For $125, you can get every single program from 1988 to the end of 2006.
[05:30.500 --> 05:32.440]  And, wow, that's a lot of shows.
[05:32.640 --> 05:34.180]  How many DVDs does it take?
[05:34.400 --> 05:35.220]  Uh, well, let's see.
[05:35.280 --> 05:38.700]  The first, uh, the first DVD is 1988, 1989, 1990.
[05:38.940 --> 05:40.200]  That's the only one that has multiple years.
[05:40.340 --> 05:44.340]  Every one after that is a, um, is a DVD for the year.
[05:44.440 --> 05:44.880]  So it's a lot.
[05:45.000 --> 05:46.820]  You get a, you get a nice box in the mail.
[05:47.280 --> 05:49.920]  So it's a, it's a good thing to, um, uh, to, to receive.
[05:50.000 --> 05:52.600]  But it's also good just to know you're, you're supporting the radio station.
[05:52.720 --> 05:55.300]  And also, you'll get an off-the-hook t-shirt with that donation.
[05:55.560 --> 05:57.740]  For a pledge of $25, you'll just get the t-shirt.
[05:58.020 --> 06:02.380]  And for a pledge of $25 and above, you'll get anything else you want plus the t-shirt.
[06:02.940 --> 06:03.520]  Anything else?
[06:03.520 --> 06:04.660]  Well, whatever we have.
[06:04.840 --> 06:07.780]  Uh, the, the off-the-hook premiums are not the only things we have at the station.
[06:07.920 --> 06:08.640]  There's all sorts of other things.
[06:08.820 --> 06:08.920]  Sure.
[06:08.920 --> 06:11.140]  Books and tote bags and you name it.
[06:11.420 --> 06:13.820]  There's all kinds of paraphernalia that we offer here.
[06:14.000 --> 06:18.860]  The important thing is for people to remember this radio station is here as a non-commercial alternative.
[06:19.140 --> 06:20.460]  And we've been here since 1960.
[06:21.100 --> 06:22.440]  And it's all because of you.
[06:22.600 --> 06:23.360]  All because of our listeners.
[06:23.680 --> 06:25.500]  So we hope to continue that tradition.
[06:25.660 --> 06:27.820]  We made, uh, just over a thousand bucks last week.
[06:28.080 --> 06:29.760]  And I'd like to double that this week.
[06:29.760 --> 06:33.160]  I know that might sound a bit much, but I know there's more support out there.
[06:33.540 --> 06:34.880]  I know there's a lot more support.
[06:35.000 --> 06:36.580]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[06:36.760 --> 06:42.140]  What I'd like to do is, um, is show people how, um, how that particular episode ended.
[06:43.000 --> 06:45.240]  And, um, how do you think it ended?
[06:45.480 --> 06:46.600]  It was very dramatic actually.
[06:46.780 --> 06:47.940]  I think it was the last show ever.
[06:48.300 --> 06:49.400]  Why am I hearing telephones?
[06:49.640 --> 06:50.220]  Where are they coming from?
[06:50.320 --> 06:50.700]  Do you hear those?
[06:51.380 --> 06:51.700]  No.
[06:52.080 --> 06:52.900]  I heard a telephone.
[06:52.980 --> 06:53.280]  I heard it.
[06:59.760 --> 07:01.720]  I have, um, have the sound of phones ringing.
[07:01.900 --> 07:03.780]  And they're real phones ringing, but I find it distracting.
[07:04.240 --> 07:08.820]  And I also think that it's something that, um, a lot of people might just call to hear the phone ring.
[07:08.940 --> 07:09.840]  And that's not the right reason.
[07:10.000 --> 07:11.760]  But I, I see the phones are ringing, which is good.
[07:11.860 --> 07:13.400]  I'm not, I'm not saying that's not a good thing.
[07:13.820 --> 07:14.400]  But, um...
[07:14.400 --> 07:15.600]  We should take a picture of those.
[07:15.800 --> 07:18.600]  Cause I think our listeners would be really curious to know how it works.
[07:18.820 --> 07:19.380]  The phone noise.
[07:19.780 --> 07:20.260]  How the...
[07:20.260 --> 07:21.220]  Oh, well actually, okay.
[07:21.240 --> 07:22.480]  We can explain it sort of, I guess.
[07:22.880 --> 07:27.300]  The, now you may wonder why you hear the phones ringing, but you don't hear anybody talking in the, in the tally room.
[07:27.300 --> 07:31.580]  It's because the phones are not actually, that sound is not coming from the tally room.
[07:31.680 --> 07:35.380]  There's another room that we have with, it's, it's, it's hard to describe.
[07:35.780 --> 07:40.300]  They just have a bunch of phones, a bunch of old phone equipment that has bells on them.
[07:40.340 --> 07:44.160]  And apparently they're extensions to all the phones that are in the, uh, the tally room.
[07:44.280 --> 07:49.820]  So every time a phone rings in the tally room, it also rings in this special room that just has old phones in it.
[07:49.900 --> 07:51.040]  I don't understand the reasoning.
[07:51.200 --> 07:52.660]  Why don't we call it the phone room?
[07:52.840 --> 07:54.580]  I don't know why your mic isn't working, Jim, but...
[07:55.340 --> 07:55.800]  How's that?
[07:56.020 --> 07:56.380]  How's that?
[07:56.380 --> 07:56.840]  It turned on.
[07:57.200 --> 07:58.420]  This time, I'm not doing anything wrong.
[07:58.880 --> 07:59.860]  Yeah, why don't you use the other mic?
[08:00.100 --> 08:00.780]  Use that one instead.
[08:01.120 --> 08:01.320]  Okay.
[08:01.500 --> 08:01.680]  There.
[08:02.300 --> 08:02.600]  Hear it?
[08:02.740 --> 08:03.260]  Yeah, I hear you fine.
[08:03.320 --> 08:05.440]  I was saying, why don't we just call it the phone room?
[08:06.340 --> 08:06.940]  I guess.
[08:06.940 --> 08:09.860]  It just seems like a silly use for a room, just to have old phones.
[08:11.040 --> 08:12.400]  It's a silly station at times.
[08:12.400 --> 08:14.180]  Especially when we don't use the sound effect ourselves.
[08:14.360 --> 08:16.920]  But it's cool to know that it's there and that the calls are coming in.
[08:17.000 --> 08:19.540]  We have two calls on the line, 212-209-2950.
[08:20.480 --> 08:24.960]  And what I'd like to do is kind of demonstrate how it all ended back in 1992.
[08:25.420 --> 08:32.060]  I think you probably know that we weren't canceled because we are still on the air and we have been for the last 15 years.
[08:32.300 --> 08:33.780]  Can you believe it's been 15 years since then?
[08:34.080 --> 08:37.340]  Well, none of you guys were around, but a lot has happened.
[08:37.560 --> 08:39.540]  But imagine, imagine if that had occurred.
[08:39.540 --> 08:53.660]  If we had been canceled that early on, before the importance of this program had been realized, all the things that would not have been discussed, all the landmarks that would not have been noted, all the milestones or whatever.
[08:53.660 --> 08:55.820]  It's kind of sad and scary.
[08:55.980 --> 08:57.900]  You wonder how many opportunities have been lost.
[08:58.060 --> 09:01.100]  Think about all the cities that don't have radio stations like this.
[09:01.280 --> 09:07.640]  Think of all the shows similar to this one or completely different from this one that never aired as a result of that.
[09:08.060 --> 09:19.080]  Instead, though, you get all your mainstream rock and roll and whatever other music is selling commercials these days, because that's what it's all about.
[09:19.600 --> 09:21.720]  Yeah, that always airs.
[09:21.880 --> 09:22.840]  That you have no trouble with.
[09:22.940 --> 09:28.520]  But alternative ideas, things where you can call in and help determine the path that we go down.
[09:29.020 --> 09:31.760]  Yeah, those are the things that always fall victim.
[09:32.480 --> 09:33.820]  212-209-2950.
[09:34.060 --> 09:37.280]  I'd like to see one more call come in, and then we'll go back to the DVD.
[09:37.740 --> 09:44.520]  Again, a pledge of $125 will yield you every single recording from 1988 to 2006.
[09:44.920 --> 09:46.020]  What did we estimate last week?
[09:46.100 --> 09:47.740]  It was something like 500 shows?
[09:47.960 --> 09:48.720]  I think at least.
[09:48.960 --> 09:49.320]  But, yeah.
[09:49.460 --> 09:50.200]  That's a lot of shows.
[09:50.280 --> 09:52.000]  You have to be a real fanatic to want to listen to all that.
[09:52.080 --> 09:53.520]  It seems to be 17 DVDs.
[09:54.360 --> 09:55.080]  Mm-hmm.
[09:55.080 --> 09:56.380]  I counted on my fingers.
[09:56.580 --> 09:57.040]  I may be wrong.
[09:57.180 --> 10:03.560]  And the thing is, what's amazing is that I was going through these, and there are just so many little tidbits that are fascinating.
[10:03.720 --> 10:10.940]  You just pick at random a program, and you'll hear something that just makes you not want to stop listening.
[10:11.120 --> 10:11.560]  It really...
[10:11.560 --> 10:19.440]  It's incredible to see how things have changed, how the phone system has changed, how politics have changed, how the world situation has changed.
[10:19.440 --> 10:28.520]  You sort of remember it in the back of your mind, but if you can actually listen to it and hear it for yourself, then it becomes all the more real.
[10:29.220 --> 10:30.480]  212-209-2950.
[10:31.400 --> 10:34.100]  I can't seem to get that one more call to come in, so why don't you guys...
[10:34.100 --> 10:35.780]  No, we just seem to have lost a call.
[10:35.860 --> 10:37.700]  Well, that's because the pledge has been made, so we didn't lose the call.
[10:37.700 --> 10:37.800]  All right.
[10:37.880 --> 10:46.900]  Well, 212-209-2950 is the number to call, and we're going to play in just a second, I believe, the conclusion of what might have been our last show.
[10:47.080 --> 10:47.580]  Mm-hmm.
[10:47.580 --> 10:50.700]  Not really the conclusion, but the resolution.
[10:50.940 --> 10:51.520]  The resolution.
[10:51.700 --> 10:51.820]  Yeah.
[10:52.700 --> 10:54.020]  Isn't that a synonym for conclusion?
[10:54.020 --> 10:56.440]  No, because there was more of the show after the resolution.
[10:56.620 --> 10:56.920]  Oh, I see.
[10:56.920 --> 10:58.100]  So we're not playing the end of the show.
[10:58.220 --> 11:00.440]  We're playing when the situation was resolved.
[11:00.840 --> 11:20.360]  And I know that it might be slightly annoying that we have to come on the air every so often to beg for your money, beg for your support, but if you compare it with a commercial radio station, the amount of time they force advertising upon you, it's really a relatively small percentage of the time that we spend paying for ourselves.
[11:20.480 --> 11:21.060]  How about this?
[11:21.160 --> 11:28.200]  Instead of us every so often having to come on the air and ask for your support, we simply say, we'll be back right after this.
[11:28.960 --> 11:31.240]  And then you hear maybe five minutes of nothing.
[11:31.900 --> 11:34.580]  And we do that maybe three or four times in the hour.
[11:34.680 --> 11:35.480]  Would you like that instead?
[11:35.680 --> 11:36.300]  Would that be better?
[11:36.300 --> 11:44.140]  Oh, and because we're doing that, the people who pay for the time in those minutes of nothing, we can't really offend them.
[11:44.220 --> 11:46.120]  We can't say things that they're going to get annoyed by.
[11:46.200 --> 11:47.720]  Otherwise, they won't buy time from us.
[11:47.840 --> 11:50.360]  So we're going to have to curtail a lot of what we talk about.
[11:50.500 --> 11:56.640]  We won't be able to say things like AOL sucks or Time Warner is a bunch of horrible people or whatever it is that we wind up saying.
[11:56.780 --> 11:59.760]  How much AT&T is a bunch of lunatics that are destroying...
[11:59.760 --> 12:07.980]  Here's the thing, the most natural advertisers, if we had to go out and sell advertising for this show, would be phone companies and technology companies.
[12:08.540 --> 12:14.680]  And then all of a sudden, we would be beholden to AT&T or whatever they're called these days.
[12:14.740 --> 12:17.880]  And we wouldn't be able to say the things that we do say about them.
[12:18.000 --> 12:20.020]  And the show would just end.
[12:20.200 --> 12:21.060]  Does that mean something to you?
[12:21.160 --> 12:22.900]  212-209-2950.
[12:23.640 --> 12:27.900]  Again, a pledge of support means this place goes on for a bit longer.
[12:27.900 --> 12:32.720]  We have to do this every now and then because it's expensive to run a radio station in the middle of New York City.
[12:32.860 --> 12:43.180]  And for those of you listening on the net, yes, this is a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City without any commercials that has programs like this where we can talk about all sorts of interesting issues.
[12:43.260 --> 12:43.400]  Jim?
[12:43.580 --> 12:55.960]  By being independent and sponsored by our listeners, we're able to show up the shortcomings of all these multinational, multi-billion dollar corporations that are full of high technology and bring high technology to the public.
[12:56.120 --> 12:57.560]  In general, that's a good thing.
[12:57.900 --> 13:00.940]  But there are vast imperfections and problems with this.
[13:01.400 --> 13:10.540]  Now, any show on a network, a radio network, a television network that covers this sort of thing tends to tell you only the wonderful parts.
[13:10.740 --> 13:15.200]  We figure that many of our listeners already have these things and have seen the wonderful parts of themselves.
[13:15.440 --> 13:25.300]  We point out the dangerous parts, the problems, the places where you're getting shafted directly or indirectly, the places where your privacy may be violated and such.
[13:25.480 --> 13:31.620]  Whereas any other organization other than this radio station would not be able to do that.
[13:32.140 --> 13:41.480]  So to enable us to give you something that you can't get anywhere else, we have to do this every five months or so.
[13:41.480 --> 13:43.320]  212-209-2950.
[13:43.520 --> 13:44.380]  That's the pledge line.
[13:44.560 --> 13:47.900]  Please call in with your support and pledge as much as you can.
[13:48.040 --> 13:51.780]  Again, $125 gets you every edition of Off the Hook from 1988 to 2006.
[13:51.980 --> 13:53.160]  Okay, we've gotten that call.
[13:53.580 --> 13:55.700]  Please continue to call in while we play.
[13:56.000 --> 14:03.740]  The resolution of the March 25th, 1992 program where Off the Hook was facing cancellation.
[14:03.740 --> 14:08.280]  Here's the very dramatic conclusion to that crisis.
[14:09.280 --> 14:10.060]  Good evening.
[14:10.240 --> 14:10.720]  You're on the air.
[14:11.100 --> 14:11.540]  Hi.
[14:12.160 --> 14:12.680]  Hello?
[14:13.040 --> 14:13.700]  Yes, go ahead.
[14:13.780 --> 14:14.040]  I'm sorry.
[14:14.180 --> 14:15.320]  Yeah, a few...
[14:15.320 --> 14:18.280]  I don't know how many weeks ago or months ago, I caught your program.
[14:18.560 --> 14:20.480]  I was utterly fascinated.
[14:20.880 --> 14:25.040]  I just listened to every word and I forgot what day.
[14:25.180 --> 14:27.200]  I finally found out Wednesday, 9 o'clock.
[14:27.340 --> 14:32.480]  I put it on my little bulletin board, a real one.
[14:32.480 --> 14:34.900]  And I was not able to catch it here.
[14:35.100 --> 14:37.680]  Finally, I said, tonight, tonight, I reminded myself.
[14:37.900 --> 14:42.240]  The note is right in front of my eyes, you know, and I don't see it.
[14:42.300 --> 14:46.420]  But tonight, I made up my mind, I'd listen, and then I hear you going off the air.
[14:46.540 --> 14:47.580]  This is dreadful.
[14:47.980 --> 14:48.420]  Uh-huh.
[14:48.580 --> 14:49.040]  I protest.
[14:51.080 --> 14:54.280]  I'm going to write in letters and I'll pick it.
[14:55.200 --> 14:57.820]  Well, I do admire your conviction.
[14:58.080 --> 14:58.620]  I do, man.
[14:58.720 --> 15:00.620]  I mean, you've got a beautiful program there.
[15:00.960 --> 15:01.300]  Okay.
[15:01.300 --> 15:04.340]  Well, listen, I want to thank you for calling in and thanks for your support.
[15:04.540 --> 15:05.520]  Is this absolute?
[15:05.520 --> 15:07.320]  I mean, that you're going off the air?
[15:07.560 --> 15:09.860]  Well, it's interesting that you should mention that.
[15:10.060 --> 15:12.360]  The program director has just walked in.
[15:12.480 --> 15:13.400]  Andrew Phillips is here.
[15:13.620 --> 15:15.080]  So, perhaps...
[15:15.080 --> 15:16.860]  Hey, Phillips, no way!
[15:17.580 --> 15:21.040]  Okay, let's give him some time and we'll take another phone call in a minute.
[15:21.580 --> 15:23.460]  Andrew, you're on, I think.
[15:24.020 --> 15:24.820]  Yeah, go ahead.
[15:25.040 --> 15:26.680]  Emmanuel, good evening.
[15:28.100 --> 15:31.860]  Yeah, I don't want to take up much of your time, very, very briefly.
[15:32.480 --> 15:41.040]  There'll be no change in this slot before it's been discussed in an open way with the program council.
[15:41.040 --> 15:43.800]  Let me very, very briefly say what went down here.
[15:44.020 --> 15:51.740]  There has been a move to try and open up some evening programs for some other programs.
[15:51.860 --> 15:55.180]  The environment program has been one program we've been trying to find a slot for.
[15:55.180 --> 16:04.940]  Or we thought that Emmanuel, this program, or a program like it, might work where he was earlier in the...
[16:04.940 --> 16:07.440]  Well, about a year or so ago, perhaps more than that.
[16:07.680 --> 16:14.400]  That is, there's a late-night talk program, which would be a longer program and a different kind of program, but one that he used to do.
[16:14.500 --> 16:16.480]  And Emmanuel and I discussed that over the telephone.
[16:16.480 --> 16:18.140]  We didn't really get to do it in person.
[16:18.140 --> 16:23.560]  I've been away at a conference, the NFCB, National Federation of Community Broadcasters, for two weeks.
[16:23.560 --> 16:24.700]  So we really haven't had this.
[16:25.160 --> 16:31.020]  In the folio, the copy went through a little bit too quickly, was a little bit too precipitous.
[16:31.760 --> 16:37.660]  And it wasn't right, because the issue has not been discussed in the way that I certainly like to have it discussed through the program council.
[16:38.440 --> 16:40.440]  And so there's no change until that happens.
[16:40.920 --> 16:52.280]  And if the program council feels, and if it's agreeable finally, and I have to make that decision ultimately as the program director, that the show should stay exactly where it is, then that's what will happen.
[16:52.280 --> 16:53.680]  But there will be process.
[16:54.420 --> 16:57.620]  And Emmanuel has a right to represent his ideas, as he has.
[16:57.820 --> 16:59.480]  And that's where it stands.
[16:59.780 --> 17:02.080]  Well, thanks for stopping in.
[17:02.280 --> 17:07.320]  I do want to say that BAI is an incredible place as far as being able to present these ideas.
[17:07.520 --> 17:19.280]  And I think what we've built here in the last year is a very unique forum, a way of showing the people what is new, what is being developed, what can be used against them.
[17:20.040 --> 17:33.060]  And the audience here is really taking to it, becoming educated about their telephones, about their computers, about the computers and cameras and things that are being developed to watch them.
[17:33.380 --> 17:38.720]  And I think what we have is we have a listenership that is alert, alert to what is going on.
[17:38.720 --> 17:51.300]  The worst thing we can do is stagnate, is just complain about how everybody is watching us and monitoring what we say and, you know, technology is just moving away from the people.
[17:51.420 --> 17:55.520]  The only thing we can really do is move with the technology and understand it.
[17:55.520 --> 18:01.380]  And I think that's what we have when we have a misuse program at 8 o'clock and the personal computer show.
[18:01.440 --> 18:09.380]  We have an evening of technology in a way that is presented no place else on any station in the country as far as I can see.
[18:09.840 --> 18:14.780]  And I hope personally that's preserved for quite some time.
[18:14.840 --> 18:20.960]  And you know that, you know, just to blow my own trumpet, it's because I originally wanted it that way.
[18:20.960 --> 18:25.500]  And I suppose it was... it could be seen as a retrograde step-to-step back from that.
[18:25.660 --> 18:31.560]  And just to... Robert Knight also, by the way, on after the show is part of that line-up, if you think of it in an even bigger way.
[18:31.700 --> 18:32.980]  11.45, that's right.
[18:33.100 --> 18:33.540]  Worthwatch, yeah.
[18:34.780 --> 18:37.880]  What, quite frankly, I mean, we figure... I figure, let's say...
[18:37.880 --> 18:38.900]  Let's me be subjective.
[18:39.420 --> 18:43.900]  I figured that the environment program was a great one to follow Michio's show too.
[18:43.960 --> 18:48.420]  And we really have a very strong commitment to try and find the right place for that program with an audience.
[18:48.420 --> 18:52.160]  That may not... it is the right place, just as yours is the right place.
[18:52.360 --> 18:54.600]  And that'll kind of... that'll be the discussion.
[18:54.800 --> 18:56.740]  That'll be the discussion, because they're both right places.
[18:56.840 --> 18:58.800]  You're perfectly right, your program does work here.
[18:59.280 --> 19:07.540]  But we've got to look at the very big picture, which must include and encompass a very high-profile slot for the environment.
[19:07.680 --> 19:14.660]  But I do respect your work, and it'll definitely be fairly and judiciously worked out.
[19:14.880 --> 19:15.300]  Okay.
[19:15.320 --> 19:17.140]  I hope to everyone's satisfaction, I'm sure it will be.
[19:17.140 --> 19:20.240]  We'll keep the listeners updated as far as that goes.
[19:20.360 --> 19:22.520]  But let me just ask you a very point-blank question here.
[19:22.680 --> 19:23.760]  Is there a show next week?
[19:23.940 --> 19:24.460]  Yes, there is.
[19:24.540 --> 19:24.760]  Okay.
[19:24.980 --> 19:28.680]  No changes until you get due course.
[19:28.900 --> 19:30.920]  It'll be at least four weeks' notice either way.
[19:30.940 --> 19:32.720]  But you'll be brought in the process, Emmanuel.
[19:33.000 --> 19:33.360]  No problem.
[19:33.360 --> 19:35.140]  If people do want to write to me, feel free.
[19:35.180 --> 19:40.700]  But you don't have to write outrage, unless you want to write outrage, but there will be due process here.
[19:41.140 --> 19:41.500]  Okay.
[19:41.720 --> 19:41.880]  Okay.
[19:41.880 --> 19:43.180]  Thank you very much for stopping in.
[19:43.560 --> 19:50.480]  And, of course, the address that people do want to write in is WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[19:50.940 --> 19:59.480]  And we really should give Andrew credit for creating this night in the first place, because it wasn't like this before.
[19:59.480 --> 20:07.920]  There was no real harmony, no flowing from one program to another, as we have with Explorations, Off the Hook, into the Personal Computer Show.
[20:08.100 --> 20:11.560]  A lot of people out there, I know, listen to all three programs.
[20:11.680 --> 20:15.020]  And you've got to ask yourself, when has that ever happened in the past?
[20:15.060 --> 20:19.060]  When have you ever actually been captivated by the radio for three hours?
[20:19.500 --> 20:21.800]  You know, three different radio programs, one after the other.
[20:21.880 --> 20:24.480]  It's reminiscent of the 1950s.
[20:24.600 --> 20:28.120]  But the reason it works is because, hey, that's good programming.
[20:28.120 --> 20:28.740]  It works.
[20:28.900 --> 20:30.020]  It merges together.
[20:30.020 --> 20:39.920]  And if you're going to write an angry letter or make an angry phone call and yell at Andrew, well, at least consider the fact that he made this in the first place.
[20:39.920 --> 20:41.300]  He put this together.
[20:42.160 --> 20:43.780]  And give him credit for that.
[20:43.900 --> 20:46.840]  And tell him that that was the right decision, if that's how you feel.
[20:46.920 --> 20:48.580]  And if that's not how you feel, say something else.
[20:48.940 --> 20:51.160]  In any event, we don't have much more time here.
[20:51.240 --> 20:53.100]  And I'm happy to say we'll be back next week.
[20:53.160 --> 20:56.140]  That's really good news for everyone, I think.
[20:56.780 --> 21:00.220]  Let's see how many phone calls we can fit in the next three or so minutes.
[21:00.440 --> 21:01.440]  So make it quick.
[21:02.120 --> 21:02.820]  Good evening.
[21:03.400 --> 21:03.660]  Yes.
[21:03.880 --> 21:04.560]  Hello, Emmanuel.
[21:04.800 --> 21:05.180]  How are you doing?
[21:05.540 --> 21:05.860]  Oh, hi.
[21:06.080 --> 21:07.200]  I'd like to say a couple things.
[21:07.380 --> 21:07.600]  Sure.
[21:07.780 --> 21:10.060]  First, you were talking about the FBI before.
[21:10.060 --> 21:16.600]  And I think that most of the terrorist acts committed in the United States probably were committed by the FBI itself anyway.
[21:16.600 --> 21:24.340]  But that aside, about the show, I think your program has been absolutely outstanding.
[21:24.580 --> 21:24.920]  I would...
[21:24.920 --> 21:29.380]  I'm a, you know, a long-time member and supporter of the station.
[21:29.980 --> 21:31.360]  And I think...
[21:31.360 --> 21:35.880]  And in fact, I didn't even know the program existed before you came on this time slot.
[21:36.300 --> 21:46.460]  And, you know, you always produce very well-prepared material, fascinating, unique material that is really not found anywhere else that I know of, at least.
[21:47.160 --> 21:58.520]  And, you know, the telecommunications and telephones and all that, that's, you know, captivating subject matter that's not really covered anywhere and particularly not in the way you cover it.
[21:58.560 --> 22:02.240]  So, you know, I have nothing but the highest praise for your work.
[22:02.240 --> 22:05.060]  And I do hope you continue on the air.
[22:05.200 --> 22:06.340]  It's absolutely fantastic.
[22:07.240 --> 22:17.880]  And if Andrew is still there, I hope he doesn't change the format because, you know, Wednesday night, in fact, you were talking about people listening for hours.
[22:18.280 --> 22:21.700]  Wednesday night is the night where I do nothing else but listen to BAI.
[22:21.840 --> 22:29.420]  I have, you know, Michio and Explorations, and then your program, the computer program, then I listen to the news, and then Robert Knight.
[22:29.740 --> 22:35.140]  And, you know, that's amazing because that's, like, my favorite day of the whole week.
[22:35.680 --> 22:40.520]  Oh, that's something to hear, that you live for Wednesday night on the radio.
[22:40.740 --> 22:41.920]  That's really nice to hear.
[22:41.920 --> 22:43.920]  I don't do anything else that night.
[22:44.360 --> 22:45.840]  I don't even work late.
[22:46.000 --> 22:50.020]  Well, you can do two things at once, but I guess your attention should be focused on the radio.
[22:50.180 --> 22:55.780]  Or whatever, but, you know, your program is definitely one of the most fascinating.
[22:55.960 --> 22:58.060]  I hope you do stay on in a reasonable time slot.
[22:58.280 --> 22:58.560]  Okay.
[22:58.720 --> 22:59.540]  Listen, thanks for the call.
[22:59.640 --> 23:00.700]  We're going to try to get a couple more in.
[23:01.340 --> 23:01.740]  Okay.
[23:01.780 --> 23:04.760]  Thanks for that call from 1992.
[23:05.520 --> 23:06.940]  I wonder where that listener is today.
[23:08.260 --> 23:12.320]  And that was a little blast from the past where Off the Hook was faced with cancellation.
[23:12.600 --> 23:15.760]  A couple of inaccuracies or things that are no longer true.
[23:15.980 --> 23:16.800]  Don't write to that address.
[23:16.940 --> 23:17.900]  We're no longer on 8th Avenue.
[23:18.320 --> 23:21.760]  And, in fact, we are not on next week because we're preempted for a special next week.
[23:21.920 --> 23:29.260]  So, despite the fact that we said back then we were going to be on again, we're temporarily not on again next week.
[23:29.600 --> 23:29.960]  Okay.
[23:29.960 --> 23:30.980]  But we are on this week.
[23:30.980 --> 23:31.680]  That's the important thing.
[23:31.680 --> 23:36.860]  And if you want to hear what was on the week after that, you can hear that on the DVD set.
[23:37.160 --> 23:37.360]  Right.
[23:37.800 --> 23:38.080]  Yeah.
[23:38.960 --> 23:40.780]  212-209-2950.
[23:41.000 --> 23:42.520]  Yeah, you can hear the next show in 1992.
[23:43.420 --> 23:51.620]  What we're offering is a library of all the Off the Hooks throughout the years, from 1988 to 2006, the end of 2006.
[23:52.060 --> 24:07.180]  And the history there, the things that have gone on in this place, you saw there a bit of how BAI works, where there's a little bit of confusion, but there's a genuine effort to abide by process and to get something that's just.
[24:07.320 --> 24:10.320]  It doesn't always work, but I think in this particular case it did.
[24:10.540 --> 24:17.420]  And many thanks to Andrew Phillips, not only for saving us back then, but just for creating the slot in the first place.
[24:17.420 --> 24:21.820]  We owe a lot to him for seeing the potential of this program way back.
[24:21.820 --> 24:23.460]  And it's continued.
[24:23.740 --> 24:25.280]  Got a lot of calls during that break.
[24:25.380 --> 24:26.660]  Want to thank those people who called in.
[24:26.660 --> 24:29.080]  Again, our phone number is 212-209-2950.
[24:29.220 --> 24:31.780]  This is most likely the last week we'll be on during the fundraiser.
[24:31.860 --> 24:34.260]  So if you want the full DVD set...
[24:34.260 --> 24:39.680]  And when we say DVD, we mean audio files on DVDs, because there are so many of them that they wouldn't fit on CDs.
[24:40.840 --> 24:41.900]  So there's no video.
[24:42.100 --> 24:42.640]  Don't be afraid.
[24:42.760 --> 24:43.580]  There's no video of us.
[24:43.680 --> 24:44.200]  Just audio.
[24:44.960 --> 24:47.740]  So if you want that, give a call to 212-209-2950.
[24:48.220 --> 24:51.560]  We have other clips we want to play, all kinds of other historical moments.
[24:51.740 --> 24:55.620]  We asked some listeners for their opinions on things that we should play.
[24:55.620 --> 24:59.720]  And what we're going to play next is something that a bunch of people actually asked for.
[24:59.780 --> 25:02.120]  So hopefully we'll make people happy.
[25:02.200 --> 25:08.060]  But again, I wanted to stress the importance of pledging to the radio station, because this place is a rarity.
[25:08.200 --> 25:11.500]  This is something that you do not see in very many places.
[25:11.600 --> 25:18.580]  Those of you who are in other cities and other parts of the world, you know that there aren't stations like BAI very frequently available.
[25:19.040 --> 25:24.760]  There certainly aren't stations like WBAI in the middle of the FM dial with 50,000-watt signals.
[25:24.940 --> 25:28.180]  That is something that's almost unique in this country.
[25:28.300 --> 25:32.640]  And the reason that's important, people might say, well, why does it matter where you are in the FM dial?
[25:32.720 --> 25:34.120]  Why does it matter how much power you have?
[25:34.280 --> 25:35.240]  Well, a couple of things.
[25:35.260 --> 25:42.160]  If you're in the middle of the FM dial, you're going to get people who are switching from one commercial station to the other who pass you while they're doing this.
[25:42.180 --> 25:43.780]  People do still tune the dial that way.
[25:43.840 --> 25:44.720]  They don't just punch in numbers.
[25:45.740 --> 25:51.760]  Usually, what happens is there's kind of a ghetto of non-commercial stations below 92 on the FM dial.
[25:52.160 --> 25:58.620]  And I always thought that was rather unfair because a lot of people just don't have the guts to go down below 92 and see what's going on over there.
[25:58.840 --> 26:02.340]  This way, we're right in people's faces, right there in the middle of the FM dial.
[26:02.460 --> 26:09.360]  Because once this was a commercial radio station that was donated to the Pacifica Foundation, and that's how we wound up in the middle of the dial.
[26:09.360 --> 26:12.940]  50,000 watts, you know, we can reach, I think, four different states.
[26:13.020 --> 26:15.020]  New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania.
[26:15.260 --> 26:16.800]  We can reach all these states.
[26:17.320 --> 26:21.600]  Now, these are people turning on the radio, just randomly turning on the radio.
[26:21.860 --> 26:27.280]  There's no bigger magic than finding people out there who aren't looking for you, who find you.
[26:27.400 --> 26:30.860]  I'd like to think at least some of our listeners are purposefully turning on the radio.
[26:31.060 --> 26:31.220]  Yeah.
[26:31.540 --> 26:32.680]  Well, there's them too, of course.
[26:32.820 --> 26:35.240]  But a lot of people found us by accident.
[26:35.340 --> 26:37.620]  In fact, we'd love to hear your stories and how you found us.
[26:37.680 --> 26:37.940]  Arseny?
[26:37.940 --> 26:43.080]  I'd just like to mention that whenever I drive, and I rarely drive, I have the radio on.
[26:43.340 --> 26:46.180]  And, you know, obviously it's always tuned to 99.5.
[26:46.300 --> 26:49.140]  But sometimes, you know, I'm like, all right, what else is on?
[26:49.300 --> 26:52.820]  So I hit it, so it scans, and all I hear is commercials.
[26:54.500 --> 26:57.960]  And then I scan the other way, going through the commercials again.
[26:58.180 --> 27:03.700]  And then we get to BAI, it's actually a person talking or maybe some interesting music playing or something.
[27:04.140 --> 27:04.640]  Yeah, live people.
[27:04.800 --> 27:07.560]  I'm convinced that BAI is one of the best radio stations.
[27:07.940 --> 27:08.420]  In general.
[27:08.600 --> 27:11.080]  I mean, I like to listen to talks, so maybe I'm a little biased.
[27:11.680 --> 27:17.180]  And, you know, I think a lot of people get confused if they don't agree with what's being said over the air that they don't like the program.
[27:17.320 --> 27:22.540]  I think there's a way of listening to alternative ideas and appreciating the fact that they're being presented.
[27:22.540 --> 27:24.560]  And you don't have to agree with everything that you hear.
[27:24.560 --> 27:26.820]  We certainly don't want people to do that, actually.
[27:27.580 --> 27:32.800]  But how many stations can you turn on and actually hear people who are there in the studio live?
[27:32.980 --> 27:39.000]  More frequently, stations are just satellite rebroadcasters of distant locations.
[27:39.000 --> 27:40.140]  They're not even there.
[27:40.360 --> 27:45.700]  I have a friend, actually, who you reminded me of, who used to work for the CBC in Canada.
[27:45.700 --> 27:51.480]  And one of his jobs was setting up remote transmitter sites where there were no staff.
[27:51.920 --> 28:01.160]  So he would go to, you know, some place in the middle of Canada, set up a transmitter where what it would do is it would receive the CBC Central Programming Office from Toronto.
[28:01.380 --> 28:01.540]  Right.
[28:01.540 --> 28:06.920]  And broadcast it on the radio to the citizens of, you know, whatever town it was in.
[28:07.040 --> 28:08.820]  And then he would go home.
[28:08.900 --> 28:10.240]  There was no other CBC staff.
[28:10.340 --> 28:11.300]  There was no radio staff.
[28:11.540 --> 28:18.760]  It's just one central location broadcasting all over the place.
[28:19.060 --> 28:25.760]  And so this live radio is something that is, you know, not everywhere.
[28:26.140 --> 28:26.480]  Yeah.
[28:26.560 --> 28:28.680]  There are live national programs.
[28:28.860 --> 28:29.300]  Okay, great.
[28:29.500 --> 28:31.380]  But we're local in New York.
[28:31.540 --> 28:33.080]  We're right here in the city.
[28:33.480 --> 28:36.260]  And that's got to count for something, especially for those of you who are in the city.
[28:36.340 --> 28:44.920]  But for those of you who are in different parts of the world, it might be just kind of cool to hear people who are in a particular location rather than you don't know where they are.
[28:45.420 --> 28:48.820]  You know, increasingly, commercial radio stations just have disembodied voices.
[28:49.300 --> 28:50.960]  And you don't know where they're coming from.
[28:51.100 --> 28:53.800]  You don't know what their base of operations is.
[28:53.920 --> 28:57.280]  And they don't really care about anything localized.
[28:57.440 --> 29:00.980]  And they actually try to fool people sometimes to make them think that they're local when they're not.
[29:01.540 --> 29:02.620]  So we don't do any of that here.
[29:02.760 --> 29:06.800]  We basically are a real radio station with real people, like Arseny said.
[29:07.220 --> 29:09.680]  212-209-2950, please give a call.
[29:09.840 --> 29:16.300]  We're gonna go to the next clip, which is something that many people seem to have an interest in.
[29:17.460 --> 29:19.000]  If I can just queue it up here.
[29:19.660 --> 29:31.200]  This is one of the more famous guests that we had, a phone freak from years past, named High Rise Joe, also known as Joy Bubbles.
[29:31.540 --> 29:42.380]  And he basically was a, still is, a blind phone freak from, I believe, Minneapolis, who was able to do all kinds of interesting things just by listening to tones.
[29:42.840 --> 29:56.680]  And what you'll hear in this clip is basically him giving us a tour of some of the different sounds and describing just the magic of the phone system and why it pulled him in so much.
[29:56.680 --> 30:01.480]  And I think for those of you out there who are into technology of one sort or another, this sort of rang quite a few bells.
[30:01.620 --> 30:08.380]  So let's take a listen to an interview from 1991 with Joy Bubbles, High Rise Joe, as he's known.
[30:08.380 --> 30:13.200]  And keep calling in, 212-209-2950.
[30:13.460 --> 30:20.860]  A pledge of $125 gets you a full set of off-the-hook audio from 1988 to 2006.
[30:21.100 --> 30:25.780]  A pledge of 25 and above gets you an off-the-hook t-shirt, 212-209-2950.
[30:25.800 --> 30:28.080]  Let's go back to November 20th, 1991.
[30:29.280 --> 30:31.660]  Now you've been blind all your life, is that correct?
[30:32.140 --> 30:34.000]  Yeah, I like to say no, not yet.
[30:34.200 --> 30:35.820]  But yeah, I was born totally blind.
[30:35.940 --> 30:37.800]  Me and my sister were born totally blind.
[30:38.100 --> 30:38.480]  Really?
[30:38.720 --> 30:39.800]  Now, has that...
[30:39.800 --> 30:44.840]  Do you think that's added to your abilities to listen to phone sounds like this?
[30:45.220 --> 30:46.160]  It may have.
[30:46.160 --> 30:49.120]  I've met some sighted people that were really good at listening.
[30:49.120 --> 30:54.380]  Like, I can tell frequencies to within about 1% on the cycles per second.
[30:54.880 --> 30:57.720]  For instance, 2600 is...
[30:59.260 --> 31:05.700]  That's a tone that originally has been the backbone of controlling the off-hook and on-hooks on long-distance circuits.
[31:06.320 --> 31:08.780]  You could even dial with that a number of years ago.
[31:08.780 --> 31:11.000]  I whistled back in the 50s and 60s.
[31:11.220 --> 31:12.920]  You were known as the Whistler, weren't you?
[31:13.140 --> 31:15.260]  Yeah, and that's using 2600.
[31:15.440 --> 31:21.140]  So that's how, in case maybe everybody knows, but that's how the name 2600 came out for the magazine.
[31:21.320 --> 31:21.800]  That's correct.
[31:21.800 --> 31:29.600]  Now, could you give us sort of a step-by-step, no pun intended, view of how you would use the 2600 hertz tone?
[31:29.760 --> 31:30.580]  You'd get a dial tone.
[31:30.800 --> 31:31.720]  What would you do back then?
[31:32.140 --> 31:35.820]  Okay, I will simulate when I'll dial a step-by-speaking of step-by-step.
[31:36.200 --> 31:46.020]  I will actually dial, on the regular phone here, a step-by-step exchange in a small town about 100 miles from here.
[31:46.480 --> 31:50.680]  And it'll get a fast busy, and I'll cut the fast busy off strictly by whistling.
[31:50.680 --> 31:53.760]  Okay, we're going to hear a step-by-step fast busy or reorder.
[31:54.240 --> 31:58.400]  Yeah, I'm going to dial a reorder in a small step-by-step community dial office.
[31:58.780 --> 32:03.900]  We'll hear the reorder, and then I'll whistle a 2600, which will cut the reorder off.
[32:04.360 --> 32:04.760]  Okay.
[32:05.200 --> 32:09.400]  And then I can whistle some pulsing, and it will dial another recording or reorder.
[32:09.400 --> 32:12.140]  So you can actually whistle pulses as well?
[32:12.360 --> 32:15.380]  Yeah, like two pulses for two and nine pulses for nine.
[32:15.780 --> 32:25.340]  So in other words, when the rotary dial had to be transmitted over long-distance circuits, it was transmitted with the on and off pulses of 2600 instead of clicks.
[32:26.380 --> 32:26.900]  Okay.
[32:27.220 --> 32:32.640]  So 2600 was extremely important to, well, it still is in a lot of cases, but less and less.
[32:32.640 --> 32:37.700]  Only in those far-away places, or is it other places it's important in two?
[32:38.420 --> 32:42.580]  Mostly more rural stuff, and they're converting it to digital as fast as they can.
[32:42.760 --> 32:43.140]  Uh-huh.
[32:43.640 --> 32:44.660]  Hold on just a second.
[32:44.700 --> 32:44.980]  Okay.
[32:45.100 --> 32:45.520]  I'll be right back.
[32:46.840 --> 32:49.620]  Speaking with Joy Bubbles, formerly known as High Rise Joe.
[32:49.620 --> 32:54.560]  Okay, now I've got the reorder getting ready to go through.
[32:54.760 --> 32:55.240]  We're sorry.
[32:55.480 --> 32:57.580]  Your holding off is completed and dialed.
[32:57.940 --> 32:58.680]  Please check...
[33:00.420 --> 33:03.980]  So I whistle 2600, which cut that recording off.
[33:04.260 --> 33:04.600]  Okay.
[33:05.080 --> 33:07.820]  Now I'll just dial a one, just to make things simple.
[33:08.000 --> 33:11.460]  And that's a vacant level in that exchange, so we should get that recording again.
[33:13.300 --> 33:14.620]  My lips are kind of dry.
[33:18.320 --> 33:19.180]  We're sorry.
[33:19.480 --> 33:20.600]  Your call can...
[33:22.300 --> 33:22.780]  Please...
[33:22.780 --> 33:23.640]  ...and dial again.
[33:25.660 --> 33:27.260]  So that cut it back off.
[33:27.600 --> 33:28.080]  Amazing.
[33:28.680 --> 33:34.340]  I don't know, sometimes when you do that, you hear some kind of a confirmation creep of some sort.
[33:34.920 --> 33:35.880]  That's a...
[33:35.880 --> 33:41.040]  Especially if you're going into an exchange that accepts multi-frequency pulsing, you would hear a wink back.
[33:41.200 --> 33:41.540]  Right.
[33:41.540 --> 33:45.640]  It's kind of hard to hear on three-way, so I chose one without wink back signaling.
[33:46.080 --> 33:49.340]  There's one, for instance, a digital exchange that's 2600.
[33:49.900 --> 33:52.760]  Now on that one, you would hear a wink.
[33:54.820 --> 33:56.820]  I could dial that up through...
[33:59.680 --> 34:01.100]  Let's see, how would I dial it?
[34:01.180 --> 34:08.120]  Yeah, I could dial that up through AT&T, and we could get a wink if you'd like to hear a wink back or confirmation.
[34:08.520 --> 34:08.740]  Sure.
[34:08.740 --> 34:09.640]  Sure, let's hear a wink back.
[34:09.640 --> 34:20.620]  Okay, what this will be is when I whistle, it'll be a confirmation that the system is ready to receive multi-frequency pulsing, which I don't have anything that would do that.
[34:20.760 --> 34:26.140]  But this would at least show you what it would sound like when the system would get ready to receive it.
[34:26.320 --> 34:26.700]  Okay.
[34:27.120 --> 34:28.080]  Well, I'll be right back.
[34:29.440 --> 34:34.240]  We'll be taking listener phone calls later on, 279-3400, if you have any questions.
[34:34.980 --> 34:39.380]  I'll have to enter my part of my AT&T credit card in here.
[34:39.580 --> 34:41.180]  Okay, we'll fade down while you're doing that.
[34:42.620 --> 34:46.800]  Please dial your card number or zero for an operator now.
[34:46.800 --> 34:49.260]  I'll manually suppress it, so...
[34:49.260 --> 34:50.200]  Okay, okay.
[34:50.440 --> 34:51.840]  We're going to...
[34:51.840 --> 34:52.580]  AT&T.
[35:01.300 --> 35:05.840]  It didn't go through that time, so I did a pound and you can dial another number.
[35:07.260 --> 35:10.580]  You may dial another AT&T handled call now.
[35:10.580 --> 35:11.560]  It's not going through.
[35:11.720 --> 35:12.580]  I'll have to...
[35:13.500 --> 35:15.140]  Hang up and dial again.
[35:15.720 --> 35:17.100]  I'll check on that one...
[35:17.100 --> 35:18.460]  The number you have dialed is not correct.
[35:18.540 --> 35:21.880]  ...while I'm talking and see why I couldn't get it.
[35:22.060 --> 35:26.040]  But I will figure out a way where we can hear a wink back shortly.
[35:26.280 --> 35:28.440]  Well, we know things change very quickly in the phone world.
[35:28.440 --> 35:32.560]  You have to constantly call back and check on things.
[35:33.880 --> 35:34.540]  That's true.
[35:34.780 --> 35:41.080]  I could do one over here on the other line and put it on a speaker, and perhaps we could...
[35:41.080 --> 35:43.880]  I could get it close enough to where we could hear it.
[35:43.940 --> 35:44.980]  I can do it that way.
[35:45.200 --> 35:46.700]  Okay, what kind of setup do you have over there?
[35:46.720 --> 35:47.860]  I imagine you have lots of phones.
[35:48.000 --> 35:49.900]  Yeah, lots of phones, lots of phone numbers.
[35:49.920 --> 35:51.400]  I have a voicemail.
[35:51.780 --> 35:53.460]  I have an 800 number.
[35:56.180 --> 35:57.640]  I've got to ask you this.
[35:57.740 --> 35:58.560]  I've got to ask you this.
[35:59.160 --> 36:01.380]  What's your default long-distance company?
[36:02.200 --> 36:03.160]  AT&T.
[36:03.300 --> 36:03.720]  Really?
[36:03.980 --> 36:12.660]  Although I had to get MCI for my calling cards because AT&T doesn't offer 950 dialing or 800 dialing to their calling cards.
[36:12.660 --> 36:16.700]  You can't use a 950 or 800 number to reach AT&T.
[36:16.820 --> 36:19.660]  You can only do it with a 0 or a 1-0-8-T-T-0.
[36:19.800 --> 36:20.160]  Right.
[36:20.320 --> 36:25.920]  And if that's blocked, like it was from Carleton College where I was on a retreat, you're out of luck.
[36:25.920 --> 36:31.820]  So I got MCI for my travel cards, which has both 800 and 950 access.
[36:32.140 --> 36:35.060]  Now, are you able to make 950 calls without a surcharge on that?
[36:35.300 --> 36:35.600]  Yeah.
[36:35.940 --> 36:36.520]  That's great.
[36:36.620 --> 36:41.660]  Of course, AT&T doesn't have a 950 number for their calling cards.
[36:41.660 --> 36:42.280]  I don't know why.
[36:42.380 --> 36:44.820]  It seems like they ought to be able to hook one up.
[36:44.980 --> 36:45.200]  Yeah.
[36:45.560 --> 36:46.800]  I'm sure they can manage it.
[36:53.770 --> 36:54.090]  Okay.
[36:54.130 --> 36:55.050]  We got the confirmation.
[36:55.110 --> 36:57.350]  I don't know if you could hear it over on that speaker.
[36:57.590 --> 36:58.550]  Let me try it again.
[37:03.620 --> 37:03.940]  That...
[37:03.940 --> 37:04.460]  Yeah.
[37:04.680 --> 37:05.460]  That was the confirmation.
[37:06.160 --> 37:06.400]  Yeah.
[37:06.560 --> 37:08.340]  And that's called a wink-back signal.
[37:09.660 --> 37:15.800]  I can't really do that on this line if I dial it direct, because if you do it on three-way, you won't really hear it.
[37:15.900 --> 37:18.680]  So I'll have to figure out a better setup.
[37:18.760 --> 37:21.540]  But that at least gives you the idea of kind of a pa-plunk signal.
[37:21.800 --> 37:25.540]  So back in the old days, you would whistle 2600 hertz.
[37:25.960 --> 37:27.420]  And then what would happen after that?
[37:28.360 --> 37:31.180]  Then you would get that little confirmation signal.
[37:31.940 --> 37:39.100]  And back in the old days, you could actually put multi-frequency pulsing in and get free calls.
[37:40.700 --> 37:42.920]  And it happened to be a federal felony.
[37:43.080 --> 37:48.040]  But they have several different means by which they block it today.
[37:48.220 --> 37:52.480]  For instance, one of them is called TFC, Toll Fraud Control.
[37:53.260 --> 37:54.880]  If you try to even...
[37:54.880 --> 38:01.740]  First of all, if you're on such a circuit, you know, that takes 2600, it won't even let the whistle go through or the MF.
[38:01.820 --> 38:05.660]  In other words, it actually blocks forward transmission when something hasn't answered.
[38:06.160 --> 38:10.600]  And you would need to make a call in a non-answered condition, so they stop your call there.
[38:11.040 --> 38:15.920]  But in case they don't, then there's another safeguard that's in your local exchange.
[38:16.660 --> 38:23.940]  If it sees, you know, blue box tones coming down, it'll just simply drop the connection after the third or fourth digit.
[38:25.040 --> 38:25.480]  Interesting.
[38:25.880 --> 38:27.000]  So they've really...
[38:27.000 --> 38:29.880]  It's, you know, pretty much a thing of the past.
[38:29.960 --> 38:31.440]  But it's nice to reminisce about.
[38:31.620 --> 38:37.420]  How do you stay up to date as to where the step-offices are and where certain interesting recordings are?
[38:37.500 --> 38:40.140]  Do you call different numbers all the time, all of the countries?
[38:40.140 --> 38:41.540]  Yeah, different non-working numbers.
[38:41.540 --> 38:47.980]  Like I knew that in Sakasana, 201-584-9986 was a non-working number.
[38:49.160 --> 38:55.660]  And I dialed it, and I suddenly said, Oh, that's not a number one ESS or 1A ESS anymore.
[38:55.660 --> 38:59.200]  That's a number five ESS, digital AT&T switching office.
[38:59.400 --> 39:00.860]  Now, they changed it.
[39:00.860 --> 39:04.320]  I can tell what type of telephone office it is by sound.
[39:04.500 --> 39:07.380]  Is there any way you could convey that to us, how you were able to tell?
[39:09.000 --> 39:11.450]  That would be kind of hard, but...
[39:12.000 --> 39:16.200]  Well, as far as I know, it's fairly easy to tell a DMS-100 from a 5 ESS.
[39:16.320 --> 39:16.760]  Is that correct?
[39:17.660 --> 39:18.840]  Yeah, there's a couple ways.
[39:18.960 --> 39:25.680]  One way, for instance, would be on a DMS-100, the ring always starts at the beginning of a two-second phase.
[39:26.360 --> 39:29.920]  Whereas on a number 5 ESS, the ring could start anywhere.
[39:29.920 --> 39:39.240]  You could get, you know, like a few hundred milliseconds of the first ring or a second of the first ring, but a DMS always gives you a whole ring on the first ring.
[39:39.540 --> 39:40.320]  I see.
[39:40.740 --> 39:40.940]  Okay.
[39:41.020 --> 39:50.780]  And then quite often or most of the time, the busy signal on a DMS stops after 30 busies, which it doesn't on the number 5 ESS.
[39:50.900 --> 39:52.280]  It'll keep on for a good while.
[39:52.460 --> 39:54.540]  Also, the ring stops a lot of times, too.
[39:54.540 --> 40:04.240]  Yeah, after, like, four minutes or so, the DMS and a good many number 5s have the ring timeout parameter, regrettably.
[40:04.500 --> 40:07.580]  Yeah, that is a shame, especially for call-in shows like we have here.
[40:08.200 --> 40:11.060]  We've been talking about that, actually, the last couple of weeks.
[40:11.120 --> 40:16.020]  Some long-distance companies themselves have been timing out after about four minutes.
[40:16.940 --> 40:22.520]  Also, I believe a DMS-100 will preface an intercept recording with a ring many times.
[40:22.520 --> 40:23.760]  Yeah, that's true.
[40:23.880 --> 40:31.020]  The automatic intercept recording on a DMS will, you know, do a ring.
[40:31.140 --> 40:50.460]  Although that can... you can get a little confused on that pretty easy because if you have an AIS concentrator, in other words, where a bunch of subtending offices send the intercept first to a DMS and then on to the intercept, you know, rather than each one have their own lines to intercept,
[40:50.480 --> 40:54.680]  you can hear a ring, but the tip-off for that is the ring will be delayed.
[40:55.420 --> 40:56.120]  I see.
[40:56.360 --> 40:56.860]  It's a ways away.
[40:58.180 --> 40:59.100]  That's fascinating.
[41:00.020 --> 41:09.000]  Now, as far as what kind of switching systems there are left in the country, we're moving towards complete digital one way or another.
[41:09.580 --> 41:11.160]  What are some of the more interesting ones?
[41:11.240 --> 41:13.520]  I know... are you familiar with Fishers Island, New York?
[41:14.360 --> 41:14.820]  No.
[41:21.520 --> 41:23.180]  It's in the office, I think, in this area.
[41:23.880 --> 41:25.040]  Wow, that is...
[41:25.660 --> 41:28.180]  I didn't realize that was still left out there.
[41:28.180 --> 41:37.040]  I had dialed it back in the 60s, but I'm just dialing it on my other line so I can see if it's a step at this moment.
[41:38.500 --> 41:39.880]  And I'm getting silent.
[41:40.120 --> 41:40.900]  Oh, there we go.
[41:41.000 --> 41:41.440]  Takes a while.
[41:41.540 --> 41:41.940]  Reorder.
[41:44.180 --> 41:46.880]  It's a reorder all the way from New York via my phone.
[41:46.880 --> 41:48.600]  That's a great sound.
[41:49.100 --> 41:51.800]  I'll show you one of my favorite digitals.
[41:52.040 --> 41:53.380]  It's a System X.
[41:53.600 --> 42:00.700]  They're primarily in the United Kingdom, but the nearest one to here is in St. Vincent Island.
[42:02.400 --> 42:04.960]  And I love the London Ring.
[42:05.140 --> 42:10.540]  Naturally, I had to figure out all the frequencies and time duration, so if anybody ever wants to know them, I can...
[42:10.540 --> 42:13.800]  Maybe it's already known, but hold on just a second.
[42:15.480 --> 42:19.000]  Again, we're speaking to High Rise Joe, now known as Joy Bubbles.
[42:19.180 --> 42:21.320]  ...the sound of a London Ring ringing.
[42:21.580 --> 42:24.640]  Or actually St. Vincent Island on a digital...
[42:26.300 --> 42:28.060]  Just about my favorite ring.
[42:35.980 --> 42:40.080]  And it's made up of two tones simultaneously, 400 and 450.
[42:41.020 --> 42:41.770]  I see.
[42:41.850 --> 42:49.390]  Now, in most of Europe and most parts of the world, the rings are just like a rather steady tone.
[42:49.790 --> 42:49.980]  Yeah.
[42:50.160 --> 42:54.720]  Usually, it quite often tends to be 425 hertz or 400.
[42:54.720 --> 42:57.520]  They're very commonly used for those steady tones.
[42:57.870 --> 42:58.270]  Uh-huh.
[42:58.450 --> 43:00.500]  Like in the USSR, it's 425.
[43:01.810 --> 43:03.540]  Okay, I guess that dates it right there.
[43:04.660 --> 43:08.980]  And that was one of the more enjoyable interviews I think I've ever done, talking to High Rise Joe.
[43:09.540 --> 43:12.720]  Phone freak extraordinaire, knows everything about the phone system.
[43:12.910 --> 43:19.980]  And as you can see, the passion with which he discusses it and just explains every single possible detail.
[43:20.290 --> 43:24.870]  I imagine there are people out there scratching their heads right now, wondering what in God's name that guy was talking about.
[43:25.000 --> 43:32.460]  But for those of you who do share an interest in this kind of thing, I imagine it's something quite rare to hear that kind of discussion.
[43:32.700 --> 43:35.960]  Now, Kevin, I know you're big into phone technology.
[43:35.960 --> 43:41.310]  How does it feel hearing somebody from so long ago talking about the way things used to be?
[43:41.410 --> 43:42.800]  It's like a whole different world.
[43:43.040 --> 43:47.860]  I mean, I actually never knew you interviewed him, and now I am going to buy the set just to listen to that.
[43:48.020 --> 43:49.660]  Wow, that's dedication right there.
[43:50.580 --> 43:54.340]  And you can buy the set by dialing 212-209-2950.
[43:54.340 --> 43:55.420]  Of course, you can just run down the hall.
[43:55.420 --> 44:05.720]  But that's the phone number to get every single edition of Off the Hook, 1988 to 2006, where we talked to all sorts of people about phone networks and computers and security holes.
[44:05.900 --> 44:09.560]  And we just witnessed all kinds of history happening right before our eyes.
[44:09.840 --> 44:19.160]  Everything from the WTO demonstration with Amy Goodman on the phone to the RNC debacle to things here at the station as well.
[44:19.300 --> 44:21.860]  All kinds of craziness going on in the year 2001.
[44:23.380 --> 44:24.660]  It's a time capsule.
[44:24.770 --> 44:25.220]  It really is.
[44:25.360 --> 44:36.520]  But most importantly, you're supporting us and you're keeping history going at this place, making for more shows in the future where who knows what we'll be able to cover, what we'll be able to talk about, who we'll be interviewing.
[44:36.960 --> 44:38.870]  Please call 212-209-2950.
[44:39.420 --> 44:40.440]  Pledge whatever you can.
[44:40.580 --> 44:43.270]  $125 gets you the full library of Off the Hook shows.
[44:43.860 --> 44:46.520]  $25 and above gets you an Off the Hook t-shirt.
[44:46.520 --> 44:50.900]  We haven't yet hit the thousand mark and we were shooting for double that.
[44:51.060 --> 44:53.770]  So we definitely need to get a bunch of calls coming in.
[44:55.060 --> 44:57.420]  Any thoughts on the interview we just heard?
[44:57.700 --> 45:07.080]  Well, one thing we should point out about the DVD set is that the files on this are sort of special high fidelity recordings that we don't have on our website.
[45:07.080 --> 45:07.560]  Right.
[45:07.700 --> 45:17.920]  So if you want to hear them, you know, very close to how they would sound on the air, even in some cases better than they would have sounded over the radio, this DVD set is the place to do it.
[45:18.020 --> 45:18.120]  Yeah.
[45:18.160 --> 45:22.880]  Now the last one we just heard, you heard a bit of hiss because that was from one of the older cassettes.
[45:23.220 --> 45:24.460]  And sometimes that happens.
[45:24.620 --> 45:28.040]  Sometimes the cassettes actually sound better than what went over the air.
[45:28.300 --> 45:35.790]  And certainly the later shows where everything is digital, they sound, like Mike said, better than what went out over the air.
[45:36.180 --> 45:38.080]  But regardless, they all sound good.
[45:38.240 --> 45:39.840]  They all sound better than what's on the website.
[45:40.440 --> 45:44.240]  And I think they all have something in them that's of interest in some way.
[45:44.380 --> 45:44.960]  And you know what?
[45:44.960 --> 45:47.140]  If you've ever called the show, you're in there too someplace.
[45:47.840 --> 45:53.960]  In fact, we did a little digging and we found a couple of us making our first appearances on this show.
[45:54.080 --> 45:56.120]  And hopefully we'll have time to get to that in just a little bit.
[45:56.220 --> 46:06.820]  But first, we need to get some phone calls coming in so that this place sticks around so we can continue to do interviews like this in the future and just watch technology change in front of our eyes.
[46:07.120 --> 46:08.460]  That's what Off The Hook is all about.
[46:08.580 --> 46:10.600]  That's what we've been about since our first show in 1988.
[46:11.260 --> 46:12.260]  212-209-2950.
[46:12.820 --> 46:14.360]  We have three calls on the line right now.
[46:14.480 --> 46:16.480]  And we have, what, five people down there?
[46:16.940 --> 46:23.500]  So that means two people are watching three other people talking to listeners and feeling left out.
[46:23.660 --> 46:26.900]  Do you really want to foster that kind of attitude, that kind of atmosphere down there?
[46:27.380 --> 46:28.790]  No, no, of course not.
[46:28.880 --> 46:33.770]  There's two people out there who have the power to help everybody get busy in the tally room.
[46:33.860 --> 46:35.420]  212-209-2950.
[46:36.300 --> 46:38.720]  And I think we were going to try and reach Bernie, right?
[46:38.770 --> 46:40.000]  Because Bernie has not been on yet.
[46:40.340 --> 46:42.420]  In fact, I wanted to point something else out.
[46:42.860 --> 46:44.320]  We're on... you want to try calling?
[46:44.880 --> 46:48.160]  We're on our way to Dayton, Ohio actually.
[46:48.300 --> 46:50.460]  Bernie's on his way and I'll be on my way pretty soon.
[46:50.620 --> 46:52.120]  In fact, not Kevin, you're going this year as well.
[46:53.340 --> 46:55.040]  And it's a traditional thing.
[46:55.240 --> 46:58.520]  We go to what's known as the Hamvention out in Dayton, Ohio.
[46:58.740 --> 47:04.200]  It's basically a gathering of tens of thousands of ham radio enthusiasts and technological enthusiasts.
[47:04.200 --> 47:05.600]  We meet many listeners there.
[47:06.060 --> 47:10.880]  People from all over the country assemble in Dayton on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
[47:11.480 --> 47:13.620]  I think the second to last weekend of May usually.
[47:14.200 --> 47:15.820]  And it's a bit of a ceremony.
[47:15.960 --> 47:24.560]  The 2600 van makes its way from New York over to Dayton and people tend to line up on the interstate, I-76, I-80, I believe.
[47:24.840 --> 47:25.840]  Oh, I-78, I'm sorry.
[47:25.880 --> 47:26.920]  I-78, I-76.
[47:27.040 --> 47:28.270]  Don't want to direct people to the wrong interstates.
[47:29.280 --> 47:31.820]  And whatever road goes into Dayton, I think it's I-70.
[47:32.620 --> 47:35.360]  So yes, we'll be making the trip tonight.
[47:36.000 --> 47:42.140]  So if you are planning on sleeping or anything like that, put those plans off and wait by the side of the road and wave at us.
[47:42.240 --> 47:44.560]  And if it's safe, we'll honk back and wave.
[47:44.740 --> 47:46.290]  But we can't guarantee we'll be able to do that.
[47:46.420 --> 47:48.600]  You know, sometimes traffic gets in the way.
[47:48.600 --> 47:52.460]  But we do appreciate the people who watch us come out there year after year.
[47:53.000 --> 47:53.840]  It's always fun.
[47:54.040 --> 47:55.900]  Now, Bernie is on the phone with us.
[47:55.980 --> 47:56.200]  Bernie.
[47:56.960 --> 47:58.040]  Hello, from Philadelphia.
[47:58.380 --> 47:59.460]  Oh, so you're still in Philadelphia.
[47:59.480 --> 48:00.790]  I thought you'd be on your way by now.
[48:00.960 --> 48:04.960]  Well, I'm waiting for Redbird and Juntz to arrive in Philadelphia.
[48:05.040 --> 48:12.820]  We're going to pile into the same vehicle and then head west to the communications mecca.
[48:13.120 --> 48:13.400]  Uh-huh.
[48:14.180 --> 48:21.560]  You know, what mecca is to the Muslim world, the hamvention is to communications enthusiasts.
[48:21.560 --> 48:23.000]  It's the hajj.
[48:23.340 --> 48:23.770]  Interesting.
[48:23.960 --> 48:27.220]  That every communications enthusiast must take at least once in their life.
[48:27.460 --> 48:35.660]  Well, I'm certainly going to express that comparison to the people out there, and then maybe we can make some t-shirts or bumper sticks or something to express that as well.
[48:36.270 --> 48:39.270]  But Bernie, did you hear the interview we just did with High Rise Joe?
[48:39.320 --> 48:40.000]  We didn't just do it.
[48:40.100 --> 48:40.440]  We...
[48:40.440 --> 48:42.500]  I practically got goosebumps listening to that.
[48:42.740 --> 48:44.060]  And because it's just...
[48:44.060 --> 48:44.600]  It's just...
[48:44.600 --> 48:46.020]  This is a treasure trove.
[48:46.020 --> 48:46.360]  Mm-hmm.
[48:46.580 --> 48:53.790]  This collection of audio recordings of Off the Hook going back to 1988 is a technological treasure trove.
[48:54.080 --> 49:03.500]  Anybody listening to this show who has an interest in what communications technology has been doing over the years and where it's going has to listen to this.
[49:03.600 --> 49:07.120]  This is really an invaluable treasure trove to go back.
[49:07.960 --> 49:20.060]  Every one of us who listens to this, you and I and everybody else on the show who've heard many of these shows before, there's always something you don't remember that we just find is spectacular, like the interview you just played.
[49:20.080 --> 49:21.540]  I've forgotten all about that interview.
[49:21.770 --> 49:21.980]  Mm-hmm.
[49:21.980 --> 49:25.440]  And that's just an amazing piece of history.
[49:26.860 --> 49:30.140]  So, please, everybody call, and you can give the number.
[49:30.380 --> 49:32.340]  212-209-2950.
[49:32.600 --> 49:34.270]  We have a few calls on the line right now.
[49:34.400 --> 49:38.290]  We need to get more so that we get over to that 2,000 mark, which is our goal for tonight.
[49:38.290 --> 49:42.380]  And we really like to see people help us get there because that's what it's all about.
[49:42.600 --> 49:47.480]  You know, I gotta say, commercial radio is in no danger of disappearing.
[49:47.680 --> 49:49.120]  Unfortunately, I wish it were.
[49:50.320 --> 50:02.860]  Every week, it seems, we read about some other stupidity that goes on in commercial radio where it's all about ratings and shocking people and just catering to the lowest common denominator.
[50:03.080 --> 50:05.540]  The latest is this Opie and Anthony nonsense.
[50:06.260 --> 50:07.800]  I'm sure we've all heard about this.
[50:07.960 --> 50:12.180]  The fact that we even have to listen to the stories about it, it's just...
[50:12.790 --> 50:14.240]  It really is annoying.
[50:14.480 --> 50:15.420]  It's frustrating.
[50:16.100 --> 50:29.360]  And Imus before that, and God knows how many other shock jocks basically out to get attention, and getting the attention, but sometimes actually paying the price for it one way or another.
[50:29.360 --> 50:30.640]  Though they rarely do.
[50:30.740 --> 50:32.770]  They usually get signed to someplace else.
[50:33.560 --> 50:35.340]  That's not the kind of thing that happens here.
[50:35.440 --> 50:42.680]  This is the kind of radio where people actually are trying to educate, to learn, to spread information around.
[50:42.980 --> 50:46.480]  And I find that people really respond well to that.
[50:46.480 --> 50:51.340]  They respond well to having something expressed that was not expressed before.
[50:51.540 --> 50:52.120]  Learning something.
[50:52.240 --> 50:58.720]  Not just being shocked or having stupidity aired over the airwaves.
[50:58.720 --> 51:00.790]  Yeah, there's a market for that, I suppose.
[51:01.220 --> 51:05.500]  But isn't it a lot more worth preserving to have something...
[51:05.500 --> 51:07.020]  Actually, that sentence came out backwards.
[51:07.320 --> 51:13.320]  Isn't it worth preserving something that's not stupid?
[51:13.580 --> 51:15.100]  I mean, can I say we're not stupid?
[51:15.500 --> 51:16.860]  Our listeners are not stupid?
[51:16.980 --> 51:18.360]  The people we interview are not stupid?
[51:18.480 --> 51:23.480]  We try and spread information and learn and get somewhere?
[51:23.920 --> 51:26.220]  I think that's pretty accurate most of the time.
[51:26.320 --> 51:28.000]  Yeah, I think that might be a good thing for BAI.
[51:28.100 --> 51:28.600]  A good slogan.
[51:28.900 --> 51:29.340]  WBAI.
[51:29.400 --> 51:30.140]  We're not stupid.
[51:30.300 --> 51:31.700]  Like the other radio stations.
[51:31.840 --> 51:32.560]  And they are stupid.
[51:32.560 --> 51:33.140]  I'm sorry.
[51:33.300 --> 51:35.940]  They play the same crap over and over again.
[51:36.080 --> 51:40.060]  They play the worst nonsensical commercials that just are...
[51:40.060 --> 51:41.640]  They treat you like you're an idiot.
[51:42.040 --> 51:45.140]  And they have these fools on the air that just...
[51:45.140 --> 51:51.160]  They're like giggling sixth graders that are just discovering sex and things like that.
[51:51.160 --> 51:51.920]  And it's...
[51:53.320 --> 51:54.080]  It's sad.
[51:54.200 --> 51:56.770]  It's sad that this is what the airwaves have devolved to.
[51:57.140 --> 52:00.900]  And they've devolved to this because corporate America has taken over the airwaves.
[52:01.040 --> 52:06.000]  And they basically programmed what they think will sell the most products.
[52:06.020 --> 52:06.920]  That's what it's all about.
[52:07.400 --> 52:08.270]  Things like this.
[52:08.320 --> 52:09.700]  Things that stimulate your mind.
[52:09.940 --> 52:14.960]  Things that might be a little bit controversial and get people not to buy everything under the sun.
[52:15.460 --> 52:17.440]  Well, that's what has to be shied away from.
[52:17.500 --> 52:19.900]  That's why you don't hear radio programs like this very much.
[52:20.620 --> 52:21.860]  It's a sad fact.
[52:22.260 --> 52:25.660]  People want to hear all sorts of different things on the radio.
[52:27.200 --> 52:28.840]  But when do they ever get the voice?
[52:28.960 --> 52:30.880]  When do they ever get the chance to do it themselves?
[52:31.180 --> 52:36.300]  Years ago, it wasn't that hard to walk into a radio station and say, Hey, I want to do radio.
[52:36.460 --> 52:37.320]  Will you teach me how?
[52:37.420 --> 52:38.440]  And can I get on the air?
[52:38.620 --> 52:40.400]  There used to be a bunch of stations like that.
[52:41.080 --> 52:42.420]  And some of them were commercial.
[52:42.600 --> 52:43.480]  A lot of them were non-commercial.
[52:43.480 --> 52:46.700]  And little by little, they've been taken over one way or another.
[52:46.960 --> 52:51.270]  Either by massive corporations, by NPR, by religion.
[52:51.620 --> 52:52.700]  All sorts of things.
[52:52.820 --> 52:54.530]  BAI is one of the few holdouts.
[52:55.220 --> 52:56.900]  One of the few stations that's still there.
[52:57.040 --> 52:58.660]  That's independent.
[52:59.000 --> 53:02.820]  Where you can still walk in off the street and learn radio and do radio.
[53:02.820 --> 53:04.880]  212-209-2950.
[53:05.320 --> 53:07.300]  Please show your support for that kind of thing.
[53:07.440 --> 53:10.360]  Because it really is precious and rare and in danger.
[53:10.560 --> 53:11.740]  It's in constant danger.
[53:13.880 --> 53:22.100]  212-209-2950 is the number to call to show your support and to get the DVD set for your pledge of $125.
[53:22.200 --> 53:23.500]  Or you could pledge more.
[53:23.700 --> 53:27.720]  If you pledge $25 or more, you'll get the off the hook t-shirt.
[53:27.840 --> 53:28.380]  Very fashionable.
[53:28.560 --> 53:30.540]  Not Kevin is wearing it right now.
[53:30.540 --> 53:30.860]  Yeah.
[53:31.540 --> 53:32.700]  And quite fashionable.
[53:33.160 --> 53:36.300]  I don't want to stick on this story too much, but it just really gets to me.
[53:36.680 --> 53:46.520]  Opie and Anthony issued an apology after airing a segment in which a guest expressed desire to have sex with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as well as First Lady Laura Bush and Queen Elizabeth.
[53:46.700 --> 53:48.840]  This is the kind of crap that's on the radio.
[53:48.840 --> 53:51.360]  This is the kind of thing that you're already paying for.
[53:51.520 --> 53:53.520]  Because they have commercials.
[53:53.860 --> 53:59.860]  And the products that have the commercials on those radio stations, they have what's known as an advertising budget.
[53:59.860 --> 54:03.820]  And that advertising budget comes out of your pocket whenever you buy their products.
[54:04.080 --> 54:04.660]  All right?
[54:04.740 --> 54:07.080]  So you're paying for this drivel on the air.
[54:08.580 --> 54:11.120]  And you're paying for us if you choose to.
[54:11.320 --> 54:12.980]  If you call 212-209-2950.
[54:13.560 --> 54:17.220]  It's more of a direct investment on your part.
[54:17.220 --> 54:19.220]  And it makes a big difference.
[54:19.460 --> 54:20.820]  There are no middlemen here.
[54:20.940 --> 54:23.420]  There are no commercial supporters.
[54:23.880 --> 54:25.740]  There's none of that nonsense going on.
[54:25.840 --> 54:32.680]  That's why it's so important that you realize that this is a regular radio station like radio stations of the old days.
[54:32.980 --> 54:41.640]  You can almost be certain that at least $125 of your money every year goes to commercial radio in the form of advertisements.
[54:41.640 --> 54:42.380]  Mm-hmm.
[54:42.770 --> 54:43.120]  Uh...
[54:43.120 --> 54:43.980]  Oh, absolutely.
[54:44.200 --> 54:44.420]  Yeah.
[54:44.800 --> 54:45.160]  Sure.
[54:45.500 --> 54:46.460]  Every single person.
[54:46.840 --> 54:48.080]  They pay a lot more than that.
[54:48.160 --> 54:49.060]  Everything they buy.
[54:49.340 --> 54:51.100]  The advertising budgets and those things.
[54:51.240 --> 54:53.080]  A lot more than $125 a year.
[54:53.200 --> 54:53.620]  I'll tell you that.
[54:53.790 --> 54:54.720]  And you don't have a choice.
[54:55.160 --> 54:56.040]  You have a choice here.
[54:56.160 --> 54:57.740]  And let's hope you make the right choice.
[54:57.900 --> 54:59.500]  212-209-2950.
[55:00.270 --> 55:01.300]  We'd sure love to hear from you.
[55:01.360 --> 55:03.060]  We're just about to hit that thousand mark.
[55:03.300 --> 55:05.770]  Maybe they haven't counted all the pledges that have come in.
[55:05.820 --> 55:06.860]  Let's hope that's true.
[55:07.000 --> 55:08.540]  But we need a flurry.
[55:08.660 --> 55:09.640]  We need a flurry of calls.
[55:09.640 --> 55:16.720]  Again, $125 gets you all of the DVDs with every single edition of Off the Hook from 1988 to 2006.
[55:17.720 --> 55:19.920]  $25 gets you the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[55:20.200 --> 55:23.580]  And, in fact, any pledge above $25 gets you the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[55:24.560 --> 55:26.400]  You could pledge $1,000 if you wanted.
[55:26.560 --> 55:26.720]  Yeah.
[55:27.040 --> 55:27.420]  That's true.
[55:27.560 --> 55:28.740]  Take it straight to $2,000.
[55:28.820 --> 55:29.300]  That would be nice.
[55:29.360 --> 55:30.220]  That would be nice, wouldn't it?
[55:30.660 --> 55:35.840]  We could start our way to Dayton, Ohio, feeling like we've succeeded here.
[55:36.020 --> 55:36.770]  Our work is done.
[55:36.940 --> 55:37.940]  Tax-deductible.
[55:37.940 --> 55:39.080]  It is tax-deductible.
[55:39.220 --> 55:39.420]  Absolutely.
[55:40.080 --> 55:41.200]  Just, you know, give us everything.
[55:42.800 --> 55:44.320]  I like the way you say that, Arsene.
[55:44.480 --> 55:45.060]  It's very convincing.
[55:45.620 --> 55:47.600]  Just give us everything and nothing will go wrong.
[55:48.240 --> 55:50.680]  Yeah, you know, whatever works for you, really.
[55:51.040 --> 55:54.840]  But the important thing is that this place be here.
[55:55.020 --> 55:57.200]  This place stay where it is.
[55:57.200 --> 56:03.840]  50,000 watts of non-commercial alternatives coming your way day after day, week after week, since 1960.
[56:03.840 --> 56:04.820]  Can you believe it?
[56:05.020 --> 56:07.540]  Sometimes I think I'm dreaming that this place is here.
[56:08.460 --> 56:12.100]  Really, it doesn't make sense that something like this could survive.
[56:12.100 --> 56:13.460]  But it has.
[56:13.660 --> 56:13.960]  It has.
[56:14.080 --> 56:14.380]  Yes, Bernie?
[56:14.860 --> 56:26.600]  I was just going to say, your listening options are not just limited to a spectacular 50,000 watt signal in the middle of the FM commercial band in Manhattan.
[56:26.600 --> 56:29.500]  But you can listen to it live on the internet.
[56:29.520 --> 56:36.220]  You can get the old shows, although at a lower sampling rate, not nearly the quality that the DVD audio set is.
[56:36.340 --> 56:42.840]  And you can listen to off the hook live on our international shortwave simulcast, which I was listening to just...
[56:42.840 --> 56:45.840]  That's what I was listening to the Joy Bubbles interview on just before you called Emanuel.
[56:46.060 --> 56:51.880]  And it was coming in booming loud and clear here in Philadelphia and through much of North and South America.
[56:52.040 --> 56:54.300]  So you can go on 7415 kilohertz.
[56:54.300 --> 57:01.120]  So your options to listen to the show extend long, far past New York, the New York listening area.
[57:01.320 --> 57:14.660]  You can listen to it on international shortwave, or on the internet, or archives, or better yet, in high fidelity off your DVD audio set, which you can get by pledging to 212-209-2950.
[57:14.880 --> 57:16.340]  And you'll hear all kinds of history.
[57:16.460 --> 57:20.060]  A very brief piece we have here is Jim's first appearance on the radio show.
[57:20.120 --> 57:20.790]  You ready for this, Jim?
[57:21.320 --> 57:21.700]  No.
[57:22.840 --> 57:27.920]  This is where you're going to discuss the future of something known as the worldwide web, I believe.
[57:28.140 --> 57:29.980]  Let's listen to your take on that.
[57:30.140 --> 57:31.880]  We have some web designers here, don't we?
[57:32.040 --> 57:32.440]  Oh, yeah.
[57:32.640 --> 57:32.900]  Okay.
[57:33.140 --> 57:35.080]  Someone come up and tell us what webs are like.
[57:35.140 --> 57:36.500]  What a web page is like.
[57:36.620 --> 57:38.220]  What can you do with a web page?
[57:38.600 --> 57:42.420]  Try to move the microphone as much as possible to make all the noise you possibly can.
[57:43.140 --> 57:43.800]  All right.
[57:43.880 --> 57:44.100]  Go ahead.
[57:44.290 --> 57:44.600]  Okay.
[57:44.720 --> 57:45.520]  What is a web page?
[57:45.520 --> 57:46.290]  Who are you first?
[57:47.290 --> 57:49.300]  Well, my name's Jim Vicente.
[57:49.500 --> 57:54.770]  I'm half owner and principal of Esoteric Resources Incorporated.
[57:55.080 --> 58:00.460]  We're a computer training documentation and web page writing firm here in New York.
[58:01.700 --> 58:05.660]  And we're also a couple of ex-hackers, but we won't talk about our sorted past.
[58:07.290 --> 58:08.460]  What is a web page?
[58:09.400 --> 58:14.770]  The world wide web is a way of graphically accessing information on the internet.
[58:15.600 --> 58:25.360]  If you have what's known as a shell account, you have what looks like just a text-based method of looking at the information.
[58:25.360 --> 58:35.040]  It looks like those old teletypes you see in your typical old science fiction or World War 3 movie, except now it's on a screen instead of on an endless scroll of paper.
[58:35.040 --> 58:44.920]  What the world wide web does is it puts up on your PC or Mac screen whatever pictures the person who wrote that page wants you to see.
[58:45.620 --> 58:46.980]  It looks a lot better.
[58:47.720 --> 58:50.180]  You're able to see whatever they want to put up.
[58:50.500 --> 58:59.840]  You can also, if you have the right viewer, you can also see little movies, download sound clips, access sound clips off their web page.
[59:01.180 --> 59:04.100]  There are literally hundreds of thousands of them out there.
[59:07.120 --> 59:10.440]  It's sort of like what the printing press was in 1500.
[59:10.440 --> 59:16.340]  It's a new technology that gives everyone the power to put up whatever information they want.
[59:18.480 --> 59:25.140]  That's Jim giving us the lowdown on the world wide web as, I think that was 1993.
[59:26.000 --> 59:27.160]  I was so young.
[59:28.260 --> 59:29.440]  Okay, we're out of time here.
[59:29.560 --> 59:30.900]  I want to thank people who have been calling in.
[59:30.980 --> 59:38.060]  And please continue to call and get the full Off the Hook Library 1988 to 2006 on DVD.
[59:38.820 --> 59:41.290]  212-209-2950 for a pledge of 125.
[59:41.640 --> 59:43.340]  25 and above gets you the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[59:43.600 --> 59:44.900]  Won't be on again next week.
[59:44.960 --> 59:45.880]  We'll be on in two weeks.
[59:46.200 --> 59:47.540]  Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show.
[59:47.540 --> 59:49.100]  The manuals for off the hook.
[59:49.290 --> 59:49.960]  Have a good night.
[59:50.790 --> 59:52.740]  Oh, and 212-209-2950.
[01:00:54.460 --> 01:00:55.840]  Hey, hey, hey.
[01:00:58.900 --> 01:01:00.000]  Yeah, funky.
[01:01:01.240 --> 01:01:02.980]  That's off the hook, I tell ya.
[01:01:03.560 --> 01:01:04.580]  Off the hook.
[01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:08.400]  Ooh, that hurt.
[01:01:10.300 --> 01:01:11.880]  All right, y'all.
[01:01:12.680 --> 01:01:14.440]  It's 8 o'clock.
[01:01:14.560 --> 01:01:15.600]  Time to start the show.
[01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:22.040]  You're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
[01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:23.540]  Also streaming on...