[00:00.000 --> 00:10.860]  Not out of concern for the continent, but in order to compete with new players like China, which is vying with established industrial nations for the abundant natural sources on the continent.
[00:11.480 --> 00:15.740]  For Free Speech Radio News, this is Joshua Chalimpa in Kampala, Uganda.
[00:16.220 --> 00:18.900]  Free Speech Radio News is a worker-run collective.
[00:19.320 --> 00:21.620]  Turna Guze and Monica Lopez produce our newscast.
[00:21.960 --> 00:23.540]  Shannon Young is our headlines editor.
[00:23.860 --> 00:25.520]  Leanne Caldwell is our Washington editor.
[00:25.840 --> 00:29.680]  Our technical production team at KPFA in Berkeley is Antonio Ortiz.
[00:29.680 --> 00:30.680]  And Eric Klein.
[00:30.920 --> 00:34.080]  In Berkeley, I'm Brian Edwards-Teagert, sitting in for Audible Gatto.
[00:37.060 --> 00:40.000]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:40.180 --> 00:42.060]  The time is just exactly 7 o'clock.
[00:42.280 --> 00:43.900]  Time once again...
[00:45.360 --> 00:46.400]  for Off the Hook.
[00:55.390 --> 01:08.070]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough We couldn't get much worse
[02:42.630 --> 02:44.450]  I honestly don't know why that happened.
[02:44.610 --> 02:45.570]  It just stopped on its own.
[02:45.650 --> 02:46.370]  I swear to God.
[02:47.290 --> 02:47.670]  Okay.
[02:47.850 --> 02:50.090]  The CD machines are going to give us nothing but trouble tonight.
[02:50.230 --> 02:51.370]  That's already been made clear.
[02:52.550 --> 02:52.950]  Fine.
[02:53.150 --> 02:53.650]  Not a problem.
[02:53.930 --> 02:54.550]  Good evening.
[02:54.710 --> 02:55.630]  It's Off the Hook.
[02:55.830 --> 02:58.470]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:59.410 --> 03:03.150]  And wish to welcome tonight our full cast of characters.
[03:03.150 --> 03:05.010]  We have Jim over there.
[03:05.330 --> 03:05.930]  Good evening.
[03:06.830 --> 03:08.490]  And that looks like Redbird.
[03:08.810 --> 03:09.190]  Good evening.
[03:09.450 --> 03:10.370]  You can't say good evening.
[03:10.390 --> 03:11.010]  I say good evening.
[03:11.090 --> 03:11.670]  I just say good evening.
[03:11.670 --> 03:13.010]  You know, it's a common enough phrase.
[03:13.010 --> 03:14.010]  You guys can work it out later.
[03:14.350 --> 03:14.910]  Arseny, hello.
[03:14.930 --> 03:15.290]  Good evening.
[03:15.510 --> 03:16.570]  And Michael.
[03:16.950 --> 03:17.350]  Good evening.
[03:17.750 --> 03:18.810]  Red Hacked is here.
[03:19.010 --> 03:21.410]  I understand it's his last show, but somehow he's outside the room.
[03:21.410 --> 03:24.410]  So I'll be coming back in a couple of moments.
[03:24.770 --> 03:26.710]  And joining us from down in Philadelphia is Bernie S.
[03:27.470 --> 03:28.530]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:29.790 --> 03:33.590]  So basically, we're sorting out some stuff out in the hallway.
[03:34.030 --> 03:37.190]  I believe there's some commotion going on out there.
[03:37.210 --> 03:37.650]  Good commotion.
[03:37.710 --> 03:40.130]  Not bad commotion, but we're trying to figure it all out.
[03:40.490 --> 03:42.270]  But we'll get into that in just a second.
[03:44.490 --> 03:52.070]  The story, the big story that we've all been hemming and hawing about this week, you might have even heard about it in the mass media.
[03:52.370 --> 03:54.110]  They've even paid attention to this one.
[03:54.710 --> 03:56.790]  It's the whole FCC thing.
[03:57.010 --> 04:01.790]  Yeah, the FCC has been reprimanded by an appellate court.
[04:01.910 --> 04:02.810]  Don't you love it when this happens?
[04:02.810 --> 04:05.370]  When the FCC gets its face slapped.
[04:06.790 --> 04:07.490]  I love it.
[04:07.610 --> 04:08.510]  Yeah, I love it a lot.
[04:08.930 --> 04:10.770]  I've been getting all kinds of mail on this.
[04:10.910 --> 04:15.170]  In fact, we all have as far as, gee whiz, now we can do whatever we want on the radio.
[04:15.330 --> 04:16.550]  No, it's not really the case.
[04:16.570 --> 04:21.010]  We still must act like responsible adults, even if there are no rules whatsoever.
[04:22.230 --> 04:25.810]  We here at WBAI are going to continue acting like responsible broadcast.
[04:25.970 --> 04:26.670]  Well, most of us.
[04:26.790 --> 04:27.310]  I'm sorry.
[04:27.470 --> 04:29.010]  Are you familiar with WBAI?
[04:29.030 --> 04:29.790]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[04:30.010 --> 04:33.950]  And I think the vast majority of people here do some pretty good radio.
[04:34.330 --> 04:34.970]  No, no, wait a minute.
[04:35.030 --> 04:35.270]  Wait a minute.
[04:35.370 --> 04:39.030]  I heard about this story, but I'm still unclear now with what you've just said.
[04:39.230 --> 04:42.430]  I can't refer to those Japanese mushrooms, or can I?
[04:42.490 --> 04:45.310]  I have no idea what you're talking about, but let me read the story for a second.
[04:45.310 --> 04:52.710]  An appeals court said a new federal policy against accidentally aired profanities on TV and radio was invalid.
[04:52.710 --> 04:53.890]  And this is the best part.
[04:54.270 --> 05:01.330]  Noting that vulgar language had become so common that even President Bush has been heard using expletives.
[05:01.970 --> 05:02.470]  Well, gosh.
[05:02.470 --> 05:03.340]  Even the president?
[05:03.340 --> 05:05.140]  Even the president uses expletives.
[05:05.380 --> 05:07.240]  The president of the United States of America?
[05:07.420 --> 05:07.960]  Yeah, the same.
[05:08.140 --> 05:08.360]  Wow.
[05:08.360 --> 05:08.760]  The same one.
[05:09.720 --> 05:11.400]  So, the second U.S.
[05:11.500 --> 05:17.160]  Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Monday in favor of a Fox television-led challenge to the policy.
[05:17.560 --> 05:18.160]  Hooray, Fox.
[05:18.440 --> 05:19.180]  Yeah, I'll say it.
[05:19.200 --> 05:19.620]  Hooray, Fox.
[05:19.760 --> 05:22.720]  You know, it's a different Fox television than Fox News, I just got to say.
[05:22.800 --> 05:29.340]  This is the Fox television that has Family Guy and The Simpsons and Arrested Development and all those other shows.
[05:29.560 --> 05:29.700]  Live Space?
[05:30.680 --> 05:33.780]  Well, that's just Fox in general, News Corporation, whatever.
[05:34.140 --> 05:37.360]  Anyway, regardless, it was a good thing that they challenged this.
[05:37.480 --> 05:38.940]  It's a good thing somebody challenged this.
[05:39.000 --> 05:40.500]  We challenged it back in 1978.
[05:40.500 --> 05:44.960]  We lost, and now a step has been taken in the right direction.
[05:45.600 --> 05:54.920]  So, basically, the case has been returned to the Federal Communications Commission to let the agency try to explain how its policy was not arbitrary and capricious.
[05:55.440 --> 05:56.360]  I love it.
[05:56.760 --> 05:59.960]  But the court said it doubted the FCC could.
[06:00.080 --> 06:00.700]  It's like a challenge.
[06:00.800 --> 06:01.560]  Okay, guys, prove it.
[06:01.600 --> 06:03.080]  But, you know, I don't think you got it.
[06:03.140 --> 06:03.900]  I don't think you can do it.
[06:06.580 --> 06:08.300]  They're not really speechless at the FCC.
[06:08.440 --> 06:09.160]  We'll get into that in a second.
[06:09.960 --> 06:21.360]  The broadcasters had asked the appeals court last year to invalidate the FCC's conclusion that profanity-laced broadcast on four shows were indecent, even though no fines were issued.
[06:21.700 --> 06:29.300]  The FCC said the F word in any context inherently has a sexual connotation and can be subject to enforcement action.
[06:29.760 --> 06:40.780]  The appeals court said some of the FCC's explanations for its new policy, reversing a more lenient policy in place for nearly three decades, three decades, 30 years, were divorced from reality.
[06:41.040 --> 06:41.520]  Wow.
[06:41.520 --> 06:43.140]  And we've said this all along, haven't we?
[06:44.580 --> 06:45.480]  Divorce from reality?
[06:45.480 --> 06:46.820]  Well, maybe not that exact phrase.
[06:46.820 --> 06:48.760]  I never said they were connected to reality.
[06:48.980 --> 06:50.440]  Well, they're pretty far away from reality.
[06:50.820 --> 07:00.900]  The court noted that even President Bush was heard one day telling British Prime Minister Tony Blair that the United Nations needed to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this S-dash-dash-dash.
[07:02.220 --> 07:10.940]  FCC Chairman Kevin Martin told the Associated Press that the ruling will make it difficult to impose fines for indecency.
[07:10.940 --> 07:15.340]  Practically, this makes it difficult to go forward on a lot of cases that are in front of us.
[07:15.520 --> 07:16.520]  Well, thank God.
[07:17.540 --> 07:28.720]  In a majority opinion written by Judge Rosemary Pooler, and I hope we name a studio or something after her, the appeals court questioned whether the FCC's indecency test could survive First Amendment scrutiny.
[07:28.960 --> 07:38.060]  We are sympathetic to the network's contention that the FCC's indecency test is undefined, indiscernible, inconsistent, and consequentially, unconstitutionally vague.
[07:38.620 --> 07:39.140]  Yeah.
[07:39.700 --> 07:46.040]  And after they looked up the definitions of all those words, the FCC responded with a press release.
[07:46.540 --> 07:54.100]  And I got to tell you, guys, this press release is the most profanity-laced thing I have ever seen.
[07:54.740 --> 07:58.540]  This is coming from a federal organization like this.
[07:58.680 --> 08:00.500]  I'm just... I'm completely flabbergasted.
[08:00.740 --> 08:02.380]  I'm going to read this, all right?
[08:02.380 --> 08:13.240]  And I understand that here at the radio station, we still do have the automatic system in place, so that if I say a particular word, the system kicks in.
[08:13.620 --> 08:15.280]  I think it's... is it still plugged in?
[08:15.460 --> 08:16.380]  I believe so.
[08:16.480 --> 08:17.240]  I was told it was.
[08:17.700 --> 08:19.160]  It's... it's not automatic.
[08:19.420 --> 08:20.020]  I thought it was.
[08:20.140 --> 08:21.300]  Somebody has to...
[08:21.300 --> 08:25.060]  Well, then the guy that sits in the special booth there probably does it.
[08:25.080 --> 08:25.400]  I don't know.
[08:25.500 --> 08:27.360]  I mean, I was just handed this manual...
[08:27.360 --> 08:28.080]  What's that special booth?
[08:28.420 --> 08:29.380]  By Redhacked.
[08:29.560 --> 08:30.200]  Gave me a manual.
[08:30.540 --> 08:32.020]  I assume that's what it's for.
[08:32.860 --> 08:33.760]  I don't know.
[08:34.620 --> 08:35.680]  Whatever it is.
[08:35.820 --> 08:44.860]  But anyway, I'm going to read the statement of FCC Chairman Kevin Martin on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals indecency decision.
[08:45.600 --> 08:46.820]  It's a real mouthful there.
[08:47.120 --> 08:48.500]  And he's kind of upset.
[08:48.680 --> 08:49.380]  He's kind of upset.
[08:49.740 --> 08:55.800]  Today, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York said the use of the words...
[08:57.500 --> 08:58.300]  And...
[08:59.360 --> 09:00.160]  See?
[09:00.280 --> 09:01.020]  It's still working.
[09:01.900 --> 09:03.080]  By the...
[09:03.080 --> 09:04.440]  By the...
[09:04.440 --> 09:05.340]  I lost my place.
[09:05.420 --> 09:08.760]  By Cher and Nicole Richie was not indecent.
[09:09.100 --> 09:09.960]  That's right.
[09:10.100 --> 09:13.300]  I completely disagree with the court's rulings...
[09:13.300 --> 09:14.020]  Ruling.
[09:14.100 --> 09:15.980]  And I'm disappointed for American families.
[09:16.340 --> 09:17.820]  It's hard to...
[09:17.820 --> 09:26.360]  I find it hard to believe that the New York Court could tell American families that are...
[09:29.180 --> 09:36.980]  And are fine to say on broadcast television during the hours when children are most likely to be in the audience.
[09:37.420 --> 09:40.120]  And I think they're always in the audience.
[09:40.140 --> 09:40.520]  Are they not?
[09:41.220 --> 09:42.600]  I mean, for us, they are.
[09:42.700 --> 09:45.240]  Certainly, if you're listening on the internet, children are always around.
[09:45.340 --> 09:46.560]  And children are up at 2 o'clock in the morning.
[09:46.880 --> 09:49.340]  So there's really no way they can not be around.
[09:50.200 --> 09:50.920]  Um...
[09:50.920 --> 09:51.320]  Okay.
[09:51.460 --> 09:55.700]  The court even says the commission is divorced from reality.
[09:55.840 --> 09:56.560]  They didn't like this at all.
[09:56.780 --> 10:01.860]  It is the New York Court, not the commission, that is divorced from reality.
[10:02.100 --> 10:04.380]  In concluding that the word...
[10:04.380 --> 10:07.340]  ...does not invoke a sexual connotation.
[10:08.000 --> 10:13.120]  These words were used in prime time when children were watching.
[10:13.800 --> 10:21.960]  Ironically, the court implies that the existence of blocking technologies is one reason the FCC shouldn't be so concerned.
[10:22.120 --> 10:30.600]  But even a vigilant parent using current blocking technology such as the V-Chip couldn't have avoided this language because they rely on the program's rating.
[10:30.840 --> 10:34.620]  And in this case, the programs were rated appropriate for family viewing.
[10:34.960 --> 10:39.020]  If ever there was an appropriate time for commission action, this was it.
[10:39.020 --> 10:41.820]  If we can't restrict the use of the words...
[10:45.670 --> 10:46.230]  ...and...
[10:50.790 --> 10:55.910]  ...during prime time, Hollywood will be able to say anything they want, whenever they want.
[10:55.990 --> 10:56.990]  There is a real danger in that.
[10:57.690 --> 11:07.570]  Today's decision by the court increases the importance of Congress considering content-neutral solutions to give parents more tools and consumers generally more control and choice over programming coming into their homes.
[11:07.710 --> 11:14.190]  By allowing them to choose the channels that come into their homes, Congress could deliver real power to American families.
[11:14.350 --> 11:19.570]  Permitting parents to have more choice in the channels they receive may prove to be the best solution to content concerns.
[11:19.570 --> 11:20.970]  This is the FCC saying this now.
[11:21.130 --> 11:33.330]  All of the potential versions of a la carte would avoid government regulation of content while enabling consumers, including parents, to receive only the programming they want and believe to be appropriate for their families.
[11:33.530 --> 11:41.510]  Providing consumers more choice would avoid the First Amendment concerns of content regulation while providing real options for Americans.
[11:41.510 --> 11:48.890]  It sounds like they've been sort of convinced that these regulations are not the answer, that giving people choices.
[11:49.250 --> 11:50.110]  That's the answer.
[11:50.270 --> 11:50.970]  So, I don't know.
[11:51.050 --> 11:51.610]  Is this a victory?
[11:52.110 --> 11:52.590]  Emmanuel?
[11:52.770 --> 11:53.130]  Yes, Bernie?
[11:54.490 --> 12:02.450]  The reference to a la carte, though, is interesting because that really doesn't refer to broadcast television very much or radio.
[12:02.450 --> 12:04.590]  You know, that refers to a cable.
[12:04.910 --> 12:16.450]  And a la carte being, consumers should be allowed to, the argument that consumers should be allowed to choose which cable channels they want to receive instead of picking just various packages that have all these channels they don't want lumped into them.
[12:16.710 --> 12:21.550]  I've got to get, I have to buy all these sports channels if I want this tier of programming.
[12:21.550 --> 12:40.710]  But the great irony in this whole thing, I think, which is most entertaining, is that in the arguments the broadcasting industry used to fight this new profanity, or not profanity, these new content rules, it contained the president's words and the vice president's words,
[12:40.750 --> 12:41.270]  I believe.
[12:41.950 --> 12:43.710]  Oh yeah, he said those words quite a bit.
[12:43.710 --> 12:44.350]  Yes.
[12:44.750 --> 13:01.550]  And so the very administration, this president's very administration, which pushed so heavily for these new content restrictions in a bow to their conservative base, had its own words used against it in this decision, which was against the administration.
[13:01.550 --> 13:03.850]  So I think that's the best irony in this whole thing.
[13:03.950 --> 13:04.590]  Well, I'm a little curious.
[13:04.670 --> 13:12.790]  You mentioned that the cable networks basically are the ones that you select a la carte or whatever.
[13:12.950 --> 13:16.130]  And if I'm not mistaken, the FCC doesn't have jurisdiction over their programming.
[13:16.130 --> 13:16.630]  Is that correct?
[13:17.030 --> 13:17.730]  That's right.
[13:17.850 --> 13:20.210]  The cable company... well, the cable company... not over the programming.
[13:20.710 --> 13:26.530]  The FCC does have some regulations that the cable TV industry is required to follow.
[13:26.770 --> 13:39.450]  But I don't think there's been legislation proposed to allow the FCC to regulate whether a la carte should be made available to consumers.
[13:39.610 --> 13:43.910]  So consumers shouldn't say, I only want this channel, this channel, and this channel, and they're the only ones I want to pay for.
[13:44.070 --> 13:51.850]  I don't want all these extra channels like sports channels or news channels that I may not want included in the whole package I've got to pay for.
[13:52.150 --> 13:54.710]  And the cable TV industry is dead set against this.
[13:55.450 --> 13:57.010]  They don't want to give consumers choice.
[13:57.130 --> 14:00.510]  They want to just sell you like three choices of packages, and that's it.
[14:00.790 --> 14:09.670]  Because it would cut into their profits if you could actually eliminate the channels that you don't want to view, most of which, most of the channels I don't want to see.
[14:09.830 --> 14:10.670]  But I've got to pay for them anyway.
[14:10.730 --> 14:12.990]  Is the FCC a little confused as to what they're doing here?
[14:13.010 --> 14:16.450]  Because why are they bringing this up if that's really got nothing to do with...
[14:16.450 --> 14:16.610]  I know.
[14:16.710 --> 14:17.510]  That's what's weird.
[14:17.510 --> 14:19.370]  I'm surprised that a la carte was brought up at all.
[14:19.510 --> 14:27.670]  But I mean, some of the channels that you could choose in an a la carte thing could be in an a la carte selection, could be broadcast channels.
[14:28.090 --> 14:31.970]  But I don't know why that a la carte has been brought up in this context.
[14:32.190 --> 14:35.030]  Yeah, maybe they just think they regulate it when they actually don't.
[14:35.870 --> 14:40.910]  But on the subject of Cheney, I just want to read this one thing from the Times, and then we've got some other things to move on to.
[14:41.650 --> 14:49.090]  Adopting an argument made by lawyers for NBC, as we mentioned, the judges cited examples in which Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney had used the same language that would be penalized under the policy.
[14:49.410 --> 14:50.870]  We already talked about what Bush did.
[14:50.990 --> 14:55.970]  But three years ago, Mr. Cheney was widely reported to have muttered an angry... Oh, I know.
[14:56.750 --> 14:59.670]  I know what it is, and we don't have any more effects to block them.
[15:00.150 --> 15:07.910]  Mr. Cheney was widely reported to have muttered an angry, obscene version of get lost to Senator Patrick Leahy on the floor of the United States Senate.
[15:08.310 --> 15:09.130]  Get lost.
[15:09.430 --> 15:11.350]  Well, you can only imagine what was really said.
[15:11.630 --> 15:12.510]  Go lose yourself.
[15:13.890 --> 15:14.330]  Absolutely.
[15:15.190 --> 15:16.690]  That's Kevin Mitnick I see over there.
[15:16.910 --> 15:17.350]  How are you doing?
[15:17.730 --> 15:18.490]  How are you?
[15:18.710 --> 15:19.350]  I'm doing great.
[15:19.630 --> 15:21.330]  Maybe a microphone would be more appropriate.
[15:21.530 --> 15:21.830]  Oh, okay.
[15:22.230 --> 15:23.990]  You had some trouble getting to the building, I understand.
[15:24.210 --> 15:26.630]  Yeah, I left my ID in the hotel room.
[15:26.730 --> 15:29.850]  I didn't realize... Have to show picture ID to get anywhere in this city now.
[15:30.170 --> 15:31.630]  Yeah, apparently post 9-11.
[15:32.150 --> 15:32.430]  Absolutely.
[15:32.570 --> 15:33.290]  It's for your own safety.
[15:33.670 --> 15:34.170]  It really is.
[15:34.170 --> 15:34.530]  I'm sure.
[15:34.770 --> 15:35.110]  Red Hack.
[15:35.230 --> 15:39.170]  I don't see what purpose it serves because, I mean, they'll let anybody in as long as you have a photo ID.
[15:39.250 --> 15:41.450]  I guess to make sure that your name is written down correctly.
[15:41.570 --> 15:41.690]  Right.
[15:41.710 --> 15:43.830]  I show my price club ID, and that gets me in.
[15:43.890 --> 15:44.090]  Yeah.
[15:44.150 --> 15:44.430]  Anything.
[15:44.510 --> 15:46.210]  You could stamp your own picture on a piece of paper.
[15:46.270 --> 15:47.350]  I'm sure that'll get you in as well.
[15:47.490 --> 15:50.070]  If you had a card printer, you could make anything to get into this building.
[15:50.210 --> 15:51.170]  So they take a library card?
[15:51.690 --> 15:52.230]  Yeah, sure.
[15:52.290 --> 15:52.550]  Absolutely.
[15:52.670 --> 15:52.910]  Why not?
[15:53.170 --> 15:53.830]  You had one?
[15:54.030 --> 15:54.170]  No.
[15:54.250 --> 15:54.370]  Oh.
[15:55.490 --> 15:55.850]  No.
[15:56.070 --> 15:56.790]  Well, if you did.
[15:57.710 --> 15:59.590]  And Red Hack, this is your last show, I understand.
[15:59.590 --> 16:00.130]  Why is that?
[16:00.390 --> 16:00.390]  Yeah.
[16:00.570 --> 16:01.250]  You hate us?
[16:01.290 --> 16:01.590]  You're leaving?
[16:02.010 --> 16:06.390]  I'm leaving the country for a while, and I don't know when exactly I'll be back yet, so... Uh-huh.
[16:06.650 --> 16:08.330]  You got to wait for that trouble to blow over, huh?
[16:08.470 --> 16:08.650]  Yeah.
[16:09.330 --> 16:09.850]  All right.
[16:10.070 --> 16:13.450]  Well, hopefully you'll be back fairly soon with all kinds of stories.
[16:13.710 --> 16:15.810]  Can I make it to the CCC Congress?
[16:16.170 --> 16:17.170]  I will try.
[16:17.230 --> 16:22.250]  I'll be in Europe, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to get over there at that time.
[16:22.430 --> 16:22.870]  So we'll see.
[16:23.070 --> 16:26.570]  CCC Congress, of course, being the... What's the word for once every four years?
[16:28.270 --> 16:28.630]  Quadrennial?
[16:28.810 --> 16:29.170]  Quadrennial.
[16:29.270 --> 16:29.470]  Fine.
[16:29.570 --> 16:30.370]  We'll just make it that word.
[16:30.570 --> 16:34.510]  We're the quadrennial celebration of hacking that takes place outside in Germany.
[16:35.110 --> 16:40.950]  And if you want more information on that, go to ccc.de, which is probably one of the coolest domains in the world.
[16:41.850 --> 16:46.130]  I mean, it's a cool domain in and of itself, but I'm saying the actual letters that make it up are cool.
[16:46.270 --> 16:47.570]  It's like cbc.ca.
[16:47.570 --> 16:48.990]  It's in about two months.
[16:49.390 --> 16:49.810]  It's what?
[16:50.010 --> 16:50.570]  It's about two months?
[16:50.730 --> 16:51.970]  It's the beginning of August, right?
[16:52.050 --> 16:52.170]  Yeah.
[16:52.490 --> 16:52.630]  Yeah.
[16:54.310 --> 16:56.010]  These are some great cards that I found.
[16:56.370 --> 16:57.950]  Actually, these were passed on to me.
[16:59.810 --> 17:04.250]  Unfortunately, the website doesn't seem to be on here, but you can probably find them on the internet.
[17:04.490 --> 17:09.290]  These are things to hand to people who are talking too loudly on their cellular phone.
[17:09.490 --> 17:10.050]  Little cards.
[17:10.130 --> 17:10.490]  Imagine this.
[17:10.630 --> 17:13.490]  The rest of us don't care what he said to you.
[17:13.730 --> 17:15.230]  Or what he or she said to you.
[17:15.310 --> 17:16.250]  You circle he or she.
[17:17.050 --> 17:19.390]  Another one says, inside voices, please.
[17:20.050 --> 17:21.630]  The world is a noisy place.
[17:21.770 --> 17:23.190]  You aren't helping things.
[17:23.710 --> 17:25.550]  And then there's the shush.
[17:26.490 --> 17:28.210]  You are being very loud.
[17:28.590 --> 17:33.890]  And just so you know, everyone around you is being forced to listen to your conversation.
[17:34.310 --> 17:41.790]  And I'm sure you can make all sorts of cards like this and just pass them out to the various people on the bus or in your office space or wherever you happen to be.
[17:42.490 --> 17:43.730]  Annoying cell phone conversations.
[17:43.950 --> 17:44.470]  They're everywhere.
[17:45.270 --> 17:45.630]  Emmanuel.
[17:45.810 --> 17:45.970]  Yes.
[17:46.370 --> 17:48.270]  There's one other card that should be available.
[17:48.510 --> 17:48.770]  And what's that?
[17:48.970 --> 17:52.390]  And that should say, do you want me to turn on my cell phone jammer?
[17:53.510 --> 17:55.050]  Yes, absolutely.
[17:55.310 --> 18:00.270]  And cell phone jammers are, of course, a increasing part of our lives.
[18:00.370 --> 18:04.630]  In fact, if you look at the current edition of 2600, you'll see, well, you'll see two things.
[18:04.710 --> 18:06.730]  You'll see a dog and you'll see a cell phone jammer.
[18:06.830 --> 18:09.350]  We're not going to tell you which is which, but they're both in the cover.
[18:09.610 --> 18:12.830]  What's the legality of cell phone jammers as far as...
[18:12.830 --> 18:16.030]  Bernie, I think you know better than I do what the actual legalities are.
[18:16.310 --> 18:22.070]  They are not only illegal to sell or purchase in this country, they are illegal to possess.
[18:22.850 --> 18:24.990]  Are they illegal to build?
[18:28.130 --> 18:32.230]  If they're legal to build until you make that final side of the connection.
[18:32.450 --> 18:34.230]  If you built it, you could be possessing it.
[18:34.250 --> 18:35.870]  When it becomes a functional cell phone jammer.
[18:37.050 --> 18:45.230]  Now, okay, you see, this is what I wasn't sure about, because I thought possessing them was okay, simply using them and maybe buying them wasn't, but actually possessing them.
[18:45.270 --> 18:46.310]  Am I wrong in thinking that?
[18:47.090 --> 18:51.170]  Well, it's kind of a gray area, whether it's possession or use.
[18:51.610 --> 18:55.370]  Use is definitely against CC regulations.
[18:56.890 --> 18:58.150]  So, whether you...
[18:58.150 --> 18:59.450]  I mean, I guess...
[18:59.910 --> 19:11.170]  I've read the laws on this, and it's really not clear whether that the actual possession or whether it needs the possession while it's turned on, but it's definitely illegal to use one, and they cannot be sold in this country.
[19:13.230 --> 19:17.510]  So, they're hard to get unless you just want to order one from overseas, which isn't hard to do, apparently.
[19:19.350 --> 19:19.710]  Okay.
[19:19.990 --> 19:25.110]  Well, we have a couple other stories, but since Kevin has joined us in the studio tonight, I want to ask you what you've been up to.
[19:25.170 --> 19:26.290]  I understand you were in Playboy.
[19:26.990 --> 19:27.350]  Wow.
[19:27.550 --> 19:28.530]  You know, I wouldn't have guessed.
[19:28.530 --> 19:30.990]  I wouldn't have guessed, but you're in the current edition of Playboy.
[19:30.990 --> 19:33.890]  Run right out and pick up a copy, and you'll see Kevin Mitnick.
[19:34.170 --> 19:35.230]  It's not what you think.
[19:36.310 --> 19:39.070]  Don't ask what I think, but tell us what this is all about.
[19:39.350 --> 19:40.990]  Well, John Lippman...
[19:41.770 --> 19:42.870]  Well, first of all, I was under...
[19:42.870 --> 19:43.950]  Fugitive Game John Lippman?
[19:44.110 --> 19:44.410]  Yeah.
[19:44.750 --> 19:58.370]  He's the one that wrote the article, but if you recall, when I signed a plea agreement with the federal government, I had to agree to a gag order for about seven years where I wasn't allowed to disclose certain facts about my case.
[19:58.430 --> 20:00.190]  And that was in 2000, and it's now 2007.
[20:00.190 --> 20:00.470]  Seven.
[20:00.710 --> 20:01.070]  That's right.
[20:01.130 --> 20:01.710]  Can you believe it?
[20:01.750 --> 20:02.610]  I can't believe it.
[20:02.650 --> 20:02.890]  Seven years.
[20:03.010 --> 20:04.130]  It doesn't feel like seven years.
[20:04.250 --> 20:04.450]  No.
[20:04.530 --> 20:06.330]  It feels like just yesterday you were at Lompoc.
[20:06.670 --> 20:07.010]  Yeah.
[20:07.170 --> 20:07.390]  Remember?
[20:07.770 --> 20:07.850]  Right.
[20:08.590 --> 20:11.070]  And we just found out we were being sued by the MPAA.
[20:11.290 --> 20:11.810]  That's right.
[20:11.930 --> 20:12.810]  That was a great day.
[20:13.010 --> 20:13.150]  Yeah.
[20:13.210 --> 20:15.870]  We're talking about, you know, wow, almost a decade ago.
[20:16.070 --> 20:19.650]  So anyway, in February of this year, that restriction expired.
[20:19.650 --> 20:24.970]  So I'm allowed to tell things that occurred in the past that I wasn't supposed to.
[20:25.190 --> 20:27.790]  But there's a lot of stuff in my case that's under seal.
[20:27.990 --> 20:34.490]  So my attorney recently contacted a prosecutor, a guy by the name of Christopher Painter.
[20:34.490 --> 20:40.690]  He's the deputy chief of CSIPs, the computer crime and intellectual property section of the Department of Justice.
[20:41.070 --> 20:43.710]  And my attorney said, well, this case is so old.
[20:43.870 --> 20:45.630]  You know, it's about 15 years old.
[20:45.770 --> 20:47.230]  Now we want to unseal the record.
[20:47.390 --> 20:50.190]  So the government is saying, no, we want to keep it under seal.
[20:50.970 --> 20:57.210]  Several of the, a lot of the information regarding the losses in the case and certain actions of the FBI.
[20:57.570 --> 21:04.470]  So now we have to go back and fight, go back to federal court and try to get the judge to unseal the case.
[21:04.690 --> 21:10.510]  The prosecutor is taking the position that it could harm the companies if the information got out.
[21:10.630 --> 21:11.810]  But what are you talking about?
[21:11.870 --> 21:14.750]  It was a source code theft case, right?
[21:14.930 --> 21:16.730]  That happened 15 years ago.
[21:16.930 --> 21:19.810]  How is that going to harm any of these big companies?
[21:19.990 --> 21:20.830]  It's all BS.
[21:21.070 --> 21:23.090]  And probably a lot of them aren't even the same companies anymore.
[21:23.210 --> 21:24.510]  They've been taken over and renamed.
[21:24.510 --> 21:33.470]  But the bottom line is, you know, finally the information is going to get out or the truth will become known that there was a lot of hyperbole in the case.
[21:33.610 --> 21:36.410]  And the government doesn't want the egg on their face.
[21:36.710 --> 21:42.690]  So I suspect that is the reason why they're vigorously opposing any unsealing of the records in my case.
[21:42.790 --> 21:44.730]  And I noticed you walk around with eggs in your hand now.
[21:44.730 --> 21:46.730]  So you're ready to get egg on the government's face.
[21:46.730 --> 21:47.610]  And I applaud that.
[21:48.090 --> 21:50.250]  Now you say that you have things to tell.
[21:50.390 --> 21:51.410]  Can you tell us something?
[21:51.410 --> 22:06.830]  Well, like, for example, what a lot of the public didn't know is that we had in discovery emails from one of the FBI agents in the case, emailing these companies, telling them what losses they should claim.
[22:07.390 --> 22:08.550]  I mean, yes.
[22:09.030 --> 22:13.730]  You know, that was kind of a big smoking gun because the FBI is not supposed to do that.
[22:13.890 --> 22:16.830]  They're not supposed to solicit that type of information.
[22:16.830 --> 22:21.690]  So they were kind of coaching them along, saying this is you could do this and that'll that'll make it higher.
[22:21.910 --> 22:37.690]  And a lot of stuff that I personally did that I think is, you know, more interesting with yeah, sorry, with the counter surveillance of the FBI, what what had happened is there was an informant in the case that was actually part of the Kevin Poulsen case,
[22:37.830 --> 22:41.750]  a guy named Justin Peterson, who went under this alias Eric Hines.
[22:41.750 --> 22:45.190]  And he contacted me many years ago to try to befriend me.
[22:45.430 --> 22:48.510]  And what I ended up doing was I was suspicious of this character.
[22:48.830 --> 22:56.190]  So this is at a time when caller ID didn't even exist in Los Angeles, but it actually was in the switch, but the PUC hadn't tariffed it.
[22:56.270 --> 23:09.190]  So I added caller ID to some friend's telephone number, paged this guy because I had his pager number at three in the morning, identified the phone number, tracked the phone number back to this address at the Oakwood Apartments in Los Angeles.
[23:09.190 --> 23:13.370]  Now usually at Oakwood is corporate, corporate and government housing.
[23:13.690 --> 23:22.030]  So I did a little bit of social engineering and I got the rental application and there was no employment history on the rental app, but there was a cell phone number.
[23:22.730 --> 23:27.550]  And I pulled the phone records on the cell phone number and it was all riddled with U.S.
[23:27.670 --> 23:30.550]  government and FBI telephone numbers internal.
[23:30.790 --> 23:32.850]  So right away I knew something was very wrong.
[23:33.450 --> 23:34.650]  So I started...
[23:34.650 --> 23:44.830]  So based on this information, I was able to do a lot of traffic analysis and actually identify the telephone numbers that belonged to the federal agents and where they were at particular times.
[23:44.830 --> 23:48.810]  So I was able to monitor their whereabouts when they were getting close to me.
[23:49.290 --> 24:04.410]  And that's, you know, so that's some new information about the case that is kind of interesting with the counter surveillance of the FBI and how it helped me evade them for a certain period of time when I was in Los Angeles.
[24:04.770 --> 24:05.130]  Interesting.
[24:05.370 --> 24:06.390]  So, you know, there's...
[24:06.390 --> 24:10.690]  So that type of stuff, you know, is, you know, I can talk about nowadays that I wasn't able to before.
[24:11.290 --> 24:11.550]  Awesome.
[24:12.010 --> 24:15.770]  Well, we're looking forward to all sorts of other publications and stories.
[24:16.010 --> 24:20.890]  I'm sure there's a million of them that you can tell us and keep audiences enthralled for many hours.
[24:22.350 --> 24:22.710]  Wow.
[24:22.790 --> 24:22.930]  Kevin.
[24:23.550 --> 24:27.190]  Bernie has a question, but you guys got to share a headphone because we're short here in the studio.
[24:27.190 --> 24:28.430]  We have 19 people in here.
[24:28.630 --> 24:28.990]  Hi, Bernie.
[24:29.590 --> 24:30.430]  Can you hear me now?
[24:30.570 --> 24:31.190]  I can hear you.
[24:31.610 --> 24:31.950]  All right.
[24:32.250 --> 24:33.190]  Well, hello, first of all.
[24:34.410 --> 24:34.730]  Your voice.
[24:34.950 --> 24:35.490]  Yeah, yeah.
[24:35.590 --> 24:35.970]  Yours, too.
[24:36.130 --> 24:37.970]  You guys weren't allowed to talk for a while, right?
[24:38.250 --> 24:38.650]  Because...
[24:38.650 --> 24:39.050]  This is true.
[24:39.150 --> 24:44.070]  There was a period of time during which it would have been a violation of one or both of our...
[24:44.570 --> 24:45.230]  Supervised release.
[24:45.770 --> 24:48.470]  ...supervised release conditions that we couldn't speak to other felons.
[24:49.450 --> 24:51.290]  But we're glad that that's long over.
[24:51.750 --> 25:02.310]  Kevin, I wanted to ask, this discovery information or whatever other information that the prosecutors are fighting against giving up, does it contain the actual source code?
[25:02.310 --> 25:04.690]  And if not, what are they so worried about?
[25:04.970 --> 25:05.110]  Yeah.
[25:05.230 --> 25:17.170]  In fact, I told the attorney that I wasn't even going to argue that we should be able to, you know, reveal the source code, even though that stuff is ancient and worthless at this point in time, because that was analog cell phones, right?
[25:17.810 --> 25:22.670]  Yeah, but I mean, there could be some subroutines in the source code or, you know, there could be some programming...
[25:22.670 --> 25:23.350]  It's proprietary.
[25:23.630 --> 25:23.990]  ...algorithms.
[25:24.150 --> 25:24.230]  Right.
[25:24.370 --> 25:25.610]  Yeah, it's proprietary stuff.
[25:25.970 --> 25:27.170]  But if that's not part...
[25:27.170 --> 25:30.030]  Is the actual source code part of the stuff that you're requesting?
[25:30.110 --> 25:30.830]  No, of course not.
[25:30.890 --> 25:31.550]  So what's the problem?
[25:31.810 --> 25:44.870]  Well, apparently the Department of Justice does not want to unseal the records in the case purportedly because it will cause harm to the victims, which is really, I think, a specious argument.
[25:44.870 --> 25:50.110]  I just think they don't want the truth of the entire case to be revealed to the public.
[25:50.530 --> 25:56.010]  And so what I have to do is I actually have to retain an attorney and I have to go back into federal court.
[25:56.330 --> 25:58.410]  Unfortunately, we're going to go back in front of the same judge.
[25:58.610 --> 25:59.330]  Are you kidding me?
[25:59.490 --> 26:00.550]  No, Mariana Felzer, right?
[26:00.550 --> 26:03.510]  Does she have your, like, an exclusive on your name or something?
[26:03.750 --> 26:04.150]  Apparently.
[26:04.210 --> 26:06.090]  You get a parking ticket, you have to see her.
[26:06.350 --> 26:16.670]  Yeah, apparently when Art of Deception was released back in 2001, she actually called the probation department, you know, very angrily asking, is he making any money from this?
[26:16.890 --> 26:18.130]  And can we take it?
[26:18.190 --> 26:19.290]  And they could not.
[26:19.650 --> 26:30.070]  And, you know, it was kind of interesting is in my case, the government was trying to get, you know, millions of dollars of restitution for losses that never really had happened, you know, vapor losses.
[26:30.730 --> 26:35.030]  And the restitution that was originally awarded was like about four grand.
[26:35.510 --> 26:44.770]  So I remember the federal... you'll get a kick out of this, Bernie, is you know how the Federal Bureau of Imprison... Federal Bureau of Prisons issues, you know, kind of these ID cards that look like ATM cards?
[26:44.830 --> 26:46.230]  I like Federal Bureau of Imprisonment better.
[26:46.370 --> 26:47.490]  I think that sounds... there's a ring to it.
[26:47.530 --> 26:47.870]  Go ahead.
[26:48.450 --> 26:48.770]  Yeah.
[26:48.970 --> 26:50.150]  So anyway, I...
[26:50.150 --> 26:53.030]  I actually was able to expirate mine out of the federal prison.
[26:53.150 --> 26:54.670]  You know, you're supposed to give them back before you get out.
[26:54.850 --> 26:55.330]  No, no, no.
[26:55.450 --> 26:57.730]  You're supposed to use them as ID because you don't have a driver's license.
[26:57.810 --> 26:58.610]  You don't have an ID card.
[26:58.670 --> 27:05.810]  I wasn't allowed to take mine out, but I mailed... this is... you know, the statute of limitations is over for... so I actually mailed mine out to a friend and told them I'd lost it.
[27:06.750 --> 27:07.070]  Ah.
[27:07.430 --> 27:08.190]  When I was...
[27:08.190 --> 27:12.030]  So wait, Bernie and Kevin are going to be confessing all their crimes now since the statute of limitations.
[27:12.110 --> 27:13.570]  Okay, I'll just sit back and listen.
[27:14.950 --> 27:19.190]  No, I was... I was... I was... when I left, I had to fork mine over.
[27:19.530 --> 27:28.150]  But I knowing that ahead of time, I mailed mine out to a friend and got it and used it for many years for just a novelty thing.
[27:28.330 --> 27:29.050]  Well, get this.
[27:29.170 --> 27:29.550]  Get this.
[27:29.710 --> 27:36.490]  So what I did is I needed some cash because I, you know, I couldn't really work because of all these restrictions and I had this restitution to pay.
[27:36.670 --> 27:39.530]  So I ended up putting it on eBay.
[27:39.850 --> 27:42.770]  And then eBay yanked it and then CNN covered it.
[27:43.150 --> 27:44.610]  And then I put it up on Amazon.
[27:44.610 --> 27:45.350]  They yanked it.
[27:45.410 --> 27:49.970]  Everybody was yanking the ID card off just for... it violates community standards.
[27:50.110 --> 27:50.770]  That's all they would say.
[27:51.350 --> 27:52.430]  So finally...
[27:52.430 --> 27:52.850]  Yeah, to protect the children.
[27:53.090 --> 27:53.530]  Exactly.
[27:53.990 --> 27:59.490]  So in any event, it became like headline news, which was unbelievably stupid.
[27:59.750 --> 28:03.530]  And then what happened is some guy in Italy, you know, bought it for like 4,500 bucks.
[28:03.710 --> 28:09.190]  So I just walked in with a check to the probation department with their restitution like the next day.
[28:09.310 --> 28:11.870]  And they knew, you know, I told them how the funds were received.
[28:12.030 --> 28:12.830]  They were livid.
[28:13.470 --> 28:19.770]  Because, you know, I basically used the Federal Bureau of Prisons ID card to pay back the restitution in one fell swoop.
[28:20.050 --> 28:20.610]  That's great.
[28:21.010 --> 28:21.210]  Yeah.
[28:21.310 --> 28:24.750]  So Kevin Poulsen did an article about it in Security Focus back then.
[28:24.830 --> 28:25.690]  And he calls the BOP.
[28:26.350 --> 28:29.190]  And he basically says, well, you know, what do you have to say about this?
[28:29.230 --> 28:30.410]  And they say, well, that's our property.
[28:30.690 --> 28:33.150]  You know, that's his ID card.
[28:33.250 --> 28:34.930]  We gave it to him, but it's still our property.
[28:35.530 --> 28:39.530]  And, you know, basically, Kevin quoted me as saying, well, go ahead and sue me then.
[28:39.690 --> 28:41.070]  So I never heard anything more about it.
[28:41.070 --> 28:41.970]  So who has the card now?
[28:42.390 --> 28:43.130]  Some guy in Italy.
[28:43.490 --> 28:44.910]  Some guy in Italy has Kevin Mitnick.
[28:45.170 --> 28:47.130]  Yeah, he has the Federal Bureau of Prisons ID card.
[28:47.250 --> 28:48.370]  I don't know what he's going to do with it.
[28:48.470 --> 28:48.690]  Uh-huh.
[28:49.010 --> 28:50.510]  But it was kind of...
[28:50.510 --> 28:50.890]  Kevin, real quick.
[28:51.050 --> 28:51.270]  Yeah.
[28:51.690 --> 28:55.190]  The back of that card, I've always wondered about the mag stripe technology in the back of it.
[28:55.330 --> 28:58.230]  Was there like a wide stripe and then a really narrow stripe in the back of that?
[28:58.230 --> 29:00.850]  No, it was a single stripe like you'd see on the back of an ATM card.
[29:01.070 --> 29:03.290]  It looks like probably like track one, track two, some sort of...
[29:04.050 --> 29:08.390]  In Fairton FCI, where I was, it was a medium max facility, controlled movement, all that.
[29:08.490 --> 29:09.150]  You're familiar with it.
[29:09.610 --> 29:11.770]  Not that facility, but controlled movement.
[29:12.830 --> 29:15.510]  There were two stripes in the back of the cards that we were issued.
[29:16.050 --> 29:21.170]  There was a... not... it was a stripe that was as wide as a two-stripe card.
[29:21.330 --> 29:25.850]  And then separate from that, there was a very narrow magnetic strip.
[29:26.130 --> 29:26.270]  Right.
[29:26.450 --> 29:30.910]  They were used just for commissary and for using the copying machine at the...
[29:32.330 --> 29:33.610]  Yeah, a stored value card.
[29:34.010 --> 29:34.630]  Yeah, exactly.
[29:34.770 --> 29:34.910]  Right.
[29:35.170 --> 29:39.510]  And, you know, it charged 25 cents per copy, which was an outrageous amount.
[29:39.510 --> 29:53.970]  But I figured out that if you put the card in and unplugged the reader and then manually yanked the card out and plugged it back in, then you could still... you could make it unlimited copies on this.
[29:54.070 --> 29:58.230]  And I can say all this stuff now because the statute of limitations has expired.
[29:58.390 --> 29:59.670]  You've double-checked this, right?
[29:59.670 --> 30:00.810]  It's not going to turn out to be...
[30:00.810 --> 30:01.690]  Yeah, next year, really.
[30:01.810 --> 30:04.090]  So many copies did you make on the federal government's dime?
[30:04.770 --> 30:05.970]  Probably a few hundred.
[30:06.050 --> 30:06.350]  But you know what?
[30:06.350 --> 30:08.570]  I paid for a lot first before I was able to do that.
[30:08.630 --> 30:12.090]  So they still more than made their cost back on this.
[30:12.330 --> 30:23.610]  But I shared the idea with some other people, which unfortunately got around the prison so fast that within a week, they locked... they put the plug, the AC plug, in a locked box.
[30:23.630 --> 30:27.570]  You could no longer unplug the machine and get free copies out of it.
[30:27.750 --> 30:28.470]  So, oh well.
[30:28.650 --> 30:30.410]  Yeah, well, I got one better for you.
[30:30.450 --> 30:40.670]  As I was able to figure out... in the metropolitan detention centers, I'm sure they also have one in New York, but the one in Los Angeles, they have public defender phones.
[30:40.790 --> 30:43.470]  So you pick up the phone, it makes a direct connect to the public defender's office.
[30:43.950 --> 30:54.110]  So I was able to track these numbers through my knowledge of the phone company and then change the line class code to allow a termination, which means that those phones could receive calls.
[30:54.390 --> 31:04.430]  So when I was a fugitive, you know, basically trying to not be apprehended by certain government agencies, I used to call other certain hackers.
[31:04.570 --> 31:07.190]  I'm not going to mention who on the show, but you could probably figure it out.
[31:07.190 --> 31:07.830]  Please don't.
[31:08.010 --> 31:08.370]  Right.
[31:08.930 --> 31:10.270]  Figure it out or mention it.
[31:10.430 --> 31:10.570]  Go ahead.
[31:10.610 --> 31:10.810]  Right.
[31:11.750 --> 31:28.050]  And be able to communicate them over a non-monitored line, you know, back, you know, this is, again, past the statute of limitations, but it was interesting because it was over a non-monitored line on the federal public defender phone because of the control of the phone company switches I had back in those days.
[31:28.890 --> 31:33.310]  So you could receive calls from people and have basically unmonitored calls.
[31:33.590 --> 31:33.950]  No, no.
[31:34.130 --> 31:34.690]  They could... Okay.
[31:34.790 --> 31:39.030]  Technically, when you make a direct connect as a service, you picked up the phone and just rings the phone number pre-programmed, right?
[31:39.150 --> 31:39.310]  Right.
[31:39.510 --> 31:41.070]  So they thought that the service was safe.
[31:41.250 --> 31:43.110]  So I modified the code in the switch.
[31:43.390 --> 31:43.730]  Ah.
[31:43.890 --> 31:44.410]  So I could...
[31:44.410 --> 31:44.890]  Call a different number.
[31:45.050 --> 31:45.370]  No.
[31:45.690 --> 31:46.230]  So, no.
[31:46.390 --> 31:51.870]  That I could make incoming calls because it was deny, terminate, which means when you call the number, you get a disconnect recording.
[31:52.210 --> 31:52.470]  Oh.
[31:52.550 --> 31:54.810]  So you would call other hackers who were in prison that way?
[31:54.850 --> 31:55.090]  Yeah.
[31:55.150 --> 32:00.650]  Well, a certain one, a famous one, because I wanted to get some advice from this guy.
[32:00.790 --> 32:02.230]  You know, don't mention his name.
[32:02.290 --> 32:03.050]  You'll probably figure it out.
[32:03.550 --> 32:12.450]  And that's how I used to communicate with this guy, you know, when I was, you know, running from the law back, you know, many years ago.
[32:12.530 --> 32:14.230]  So you can write a movie now, right?
[32:14.310 --> 32:15.970]  I mean, you can do that because you have so many stories.
[32:16.290 --> 32:19.390]  You have so many interesting tales and things that people haven't done.
[32:19.550 --> 32:23.490]  I remember, you know, some agency was chasing me with a helicopter in Seattle.
[32:23.630 --> 32:24.750]  Not many people know that.
[32:24.950 --> 32:27.050]  And there's a lot of stuff to my case that nobody...
[32:27.050 --> 32:29.550]  I thought you meant a film agency was chasing his name.
[32:29.810 --> 32:32.730]  No, it's actually... I think it was like a... yeah, that was probably it.
[32:32.850 --> 32:34.410]  Or maybe it was John Markoff.
[32:34.690 --> 32:35.890]  Oh, I don't think he has a helicopter.
[32:36.390 --> 32:37.030]  You never know.
[32:37.110 --> 32:37.870]  The New York Times does.
[32:38.090 --> 32:38.290]  All right.
[32:38.350 --> 32:39.830]  Kevin Mitnick and Bernie S.
[32:39.910 --> 32:42.430]  trading stories of crime of the past.
[32:42.550 --> 32:43.430]  Jim, you have something to contribute?
[32:43.690 --> 32:44.010]  Yes.
[32:44.150 --> 32:44.330]  Yes.
[32:44.330 --> 32:45.430]  This is brilliant, I think.
[32:45.530 --> 32:46.650]  Is your statute of limitations over?
[32:46.790 --> 32:49.190]  Well, no, but we're not discussing my case at all.
[32:49.670 --> 32:50.790]  That's what you think, but go ahead.
[32:51.430 --> 32:52.830]  Titles are not copyrightable.
[32:53.470 --> 32:54.330]  You've made a movie.
[32:54.870 --> 32:56.630]  You've made... well, you've got another one.
[32:56.890 --> 32:58.130]  It's sort of somewhere in the works right here.
[32:58.290 --> 33:02.190]  But this is the perfect thing for your third movie, and I have the title.
[33:02.630 --> 33:04.530]  Are you going to say it, or are you just going to tell me later, or...?
[33:04.530 --> 33:05.050]  Takedown.
[33:05.610 --> 33:07.010]  Oh, you mean make a film called...
[33:07.010 --> 33:07.770]  We make a film.
[33:08.010 --> 33:08.310]  Uh-huh.
[33:08.370 --> 33:09.030]  A documentary.
[33:09.390 --> 33:11.150]  There was a film about wrestling called Takedown, too.
[33:11.270 --> 33:14.890]  There is also a film that mangled this story badly.
[33:15.590 --> 33:17.990]  For me, that word has been ruined.
[33:18.250 --> 33:18.450]  Really?
[33:18.450 --> 33:18.750]  Yeah.
[33:18.950 --> 33:27.910]  Because I thought we could preempt, we could co-opt Skeet's movie, and take it back.
[33:28.310 --> 33:30.570]  Kevin, is there anything... do you have any good things to say about that movie?
[33:30.650 --> 33:31.070]  I do.
[33:31.210 --> 33:32.710]  I think the guy who played Lewis was good.
[33:32.950 --> 33:33.850]  I thought he was funny.
[33:33.850 --> 33:42.610]  Yeah, in fact, it's kind of funny, because I went to go see Loveline with Dr... was it Ann Carolla and Dr. Drew?
[33:42.730 --> 33:43.270]  The radio program.
[33:43.470 --> 33:44.630]  Yeah, radio show.
[33:44.630 --> 33:47.370]  And this was in Los Angeles, I don't know, several years ago.
[33:48.010 --> 33:50.330]  And I was joking with Darcy at the time.
[33:50.410 --> 33:53.350]  I said, yeah, it would be funny if it was Skeet Ulrich, you know, and they're being interviewed.
[33:53.610 --> 33:59.110]  So the actor's back was to the observation room, right?
[33:59.910 --> 34:06.590]  And then when Adam Carolla was calling a break, they basically said, you know, we'll be back with Donald Logue right after this break.
[34:06.710 --> 34:07.470]  And I go, Donald Logue?
[34:07.870 --> 34:10.450]  That's the guy that played Louis Depayne in Takedown.
[34:10.550 --> 34:14.050]  So he comes out, and I go, and he looked totally different from the movie.
[34:14.130 --> 34:17.010]  And I go, did you play in that Hacker movie, right?
[34:17.170 --> 34:19.270]  And he goes, oh, yeah, take that Mitnick.
[34:19.390 --> 34:20.790]  I played in the Mitnick movie.
[34:20.870 --> 34:21.910]  I go, yeah, well, I'm him.
[34:22.270 --> 34:23.130]  He goes, no.
[34:23.690 --> 34:24.410]  He goes, I go, yeah.
[34:24.550 --> 34:25.450]  And I showed him my ID.
[34:25.710 --> 34:30.090]  He goes, man, I have free Kevin stickers all over my guitar case, all over this stuff.
[34:30.390 --> 34:31.190]  I said, that's cool.
[34:31.370 --> 34:32.150]  He was a nice guy.
[34:32.230 --> 34:36.570]  I thought he was petrified when he met you, thinking that you were going to ruin his credit or something, because you were angry at him.
[34:36.570 --> 34:37.270]  No, he wasn't like that?
[34:37.390 --> 34:38.350]  No, he was really cool.
[34:38.450 --> 34:38.770]  He was cool.
[34:38.970 --> 34:39.550]  Yeah, really cool.
[34:39.670 --> 34:39.870]  Okay.
[34:39.930 --> 34:40.070]  Yeah.
[34:40.510 --> 34:42.890]  It was Skeet that probably had to hide, hide away.
[34:43.330 --> 34:43.990]  I don't know.
[34:44.130 --> 34:44.690]  I don't know either.
[34:44.690 --> 34:45.570]  I didn't hear about it.
[34:45.830 --> 34:52.070]  I heard some of these guys from like 2600 Magazine were chasing these guys around Wilmington, North Carolina or something.
[34:52.210 --> 34:54.290]  We just wanted an interview, but they were scared of us.
[34:54.350 --> 34:54.850]  They really were.
[34:54.930 --> 34:57.410]  They were hiding, and they thought the hackers were after them.
[34:57.670 --> 35:01.290]  And even at Miramax downtown, we had, what, 14 people protesting.
[35:01.470 --> 35:05.990]  They thought that was the apocalypse downstairs, and they were really scared, having hackers.
[35:07.390 --> 35:07.710]  Protesting.
[35:08.270 --> 35:09.050]  But that's just the way it is.
[35:09.190 --> 35:10.070]  We need to do more.
[35:10.330 --> 35:12.470]  I think Bernie has one more question for you.
[35:12.590 --> 35:12.910]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[35:12.930 --> 35:30.750]  Kevin, I just wanted to thought you'd be amused by the fact that we found a Free Kevin sticker just a couple, three weeks ago at the Dayton Ham Vention, which was affixed to a mobile dumpster, a dumpster on wheels, back when you were still incarcerated,
[35:30.750 --> 35:31.830]  way back when.
[35:32.190 --> 35:35.010]  So, and it's been on that dumpster every year.
[35:35.030 --> 35:43.370]  And here it is showing up at the Dayton Ham Vention still at the, you know, part of it had been torn away, but you can still see it says Free Kevin.
[35:43.370 --> 35:43.950]  Wow.
[35:44.090 --> 35:57.570]  I mean, now that you had to fight the FCC to get your ham license back, your amateur radio license back, because ostensibly you were unfit for it, even though your crimes had nothing to do with using the radio spectrum, are you still an active amateur operator?
[35:57.850 --> 35:58.650]  Not lately.
[35:59.070 --> 36:06.010]  I mean, actually, after fighting the FCC and getting my license back, I really hadn't engaged in the hobby.
[36:06.010 --> 36:18.270]  But, you know, a funny thing with the Free Kevin bumper sticker is, at one point, 2600 magazine was out in Los Angeles, picketing in front of the Metropolitan Detention Center after being held for like four and a half years without a trial.
[36:18.630 --> 36:19.690]  You were, not us.
[36:20.010 --> 36:20.170]  No.
[36:20.270 --> 36:21.030]  2600 wasn't held.
[36:21.110 --> 36:21.590]  You were in prison.
[36:21.590 --> 36:22.030]  I was.
[36:22.090 --> 36:22.370]  Yeah, okay.
[36:22.470 --> 36:23.170]  That's why I made that clear.
[36:23.490 --> 36:24.110]  Okay, sorry.
[36:25.350 --> 36:33.430]  Anyway, somebody had stuck, some unknown person had stuck a Free Kevin bumper sticker on the window, the front door of the MDC.
[36:34.090 --> 36:35.850]  I thought it was at the window of the gas station.
[36:36.010 --> 36:37.490]  No, also on the MDC.
[36:37.530 --> 36:37.910]  Oh, okay.
[36:38.050 --> 36:49.930]  So, you know, all of a sudden, these guys are like storming in my room at the MDC, and you would think that I was trying to escape, and they go, Mitnick, and I go, yeah, how did you do it?
[36:51.550 --> 36:52.630]  I go, excuse me?
[36:52.870 --> 36:55.930]  They go, how did you get a Free Kevin bumper sticker on our window?
[36:56.050 --> 36:56.970]  How did you get outside?
[36:57.710 --> 37:04.310]  And I'm going, first of all, I'm like, you know, pinching myself to make sure I'm not dreaming because this is like totally stupid.
[37:04.710 --> 37:05.890]  Like, I'm going to break out.
[37:06.010 --> 37:09.050]  I'm going to put your Free Kevin bumper sticker, and then I'm going to go right back in.
[37:09.670 --> 37:12.910]  Are they unaware there are other people outside in the world who could have done this?
[37:12.950 --> 37:13.230]  Right, right.
[37:13.570 --> 37:17.370]  So, I mean, it was just like, it was like the classic clowns.
[37:17.410 --> 37:18.450]  You know, it was unbelievable.
[37:18.710 --> 37:20.930]  But, yeah, they have like a big investigation.
[37:21.270 --> 37:25.450]  They'll be like, who could have like stuck the sticker on the window of the MDC?
[37:25.590 --> 37:26.210]  Oh, that's brilliant.
[37:26.310 --> 37:29.610]  It reminds me of Bernie's story where they were looking for a computer in the tube of toothpaste, right?
[37:30.430 --> 37:31.530]  No, no, no, no, no, no.
[37:31.590 --> 37:32.450]  They thought I was going to take it.
[37:32.450 --> 37:33.490]  No, this is Bernie's.
[37:33.490 --> 37:33.670]  Oh, Bernie.
[37:33.690 --> 37:34.450]  Bernie's tube of toothpaste.
[37:35.110 --> 37:36.290]  Man, where do you get that toothpaste?
[37:37.330 --> 37:43.990]  Well, I had a friend send a fax to the warden based on something I was dictating to her.
[37:43.990 --> 37:50.030]  And she sent the fax electronically, obviously, to the warden's fax machine, which is a number I obtained to obtain.
[37:50.270 --> 37:55.030]  And, you know, a few hours later, my cell was completely tossed.
[37:55.290 --> 37:57.370]  My mattress was flipped upside down.
[37:57.590 --> 38:02.850]  My cabinet with all my toiletries and legal papers and everything was tossed.
[38:03.110 --> 38:09.630]  And they squeezed all the toothpaste out of my toothpaste while they continued to ask me, where's the fax machine?
[38:09.690 --> 38:10.430]  Where's your computer?
[38:10.630 --> 38:13.050]  Where's your computer in your cell, in your fax machine?
[38:13.050 --> 38:15.650]  It was the most insane...
[38:15.650 --> 38:21.510]  Obviously, these prison guards have not even a clue about basic knowledge.
[38:21.790 --> 38:23.850]  No, I think it's a lot of these prison guards are on drugs.
[38:24.170 --> 38:25.130]  Well, that could be, too.
[38:26.470 --> 38:26.790]  Absolutely.
[38:27.050 --> 38:27.230]  Very strange.
[38:27.690 --> 38:29.050]  Okay, moving on.
[38:29.150 --> 38:32.850]  We have other stories, lots of other stories we have to cover, but obviously we're not going to get through all of them.
[38:32.990 --> 38:35.330]  We do want to take some phone calls a little bit later on.
[38:35.630 --> 38:39.790]  But the big story this week was the threat to JFK Airport.
[38:39.790 --> 38:47.910]  Now, I believe we mentioned a few months ago that somebody was able to get blueprints for JFK Airport.
[38:48.310 --> 38:49.830]  I did mention it.
[38:49.950 --> 38:50.350]  I don't want to name names or anything.
[38:50.350 --> 38:51.530]  It wasn't JFK.
[38:51.530 --> 38:52.730]  It was Logan.
[38:52.890 --> 38:53.530]  It was Logan?
[38:53.650 --> 38:54.270]  It wasn't JFK?
[38:54.370 --> 38:56.150]  I used to own the blueprints for Logan.
[38:56.310 --> 38:58.470]  Weren't you directed to get the blueprints for JFK, though?
[38:59.270 --> 39:01.010]  Yes, my master's in Mecca.
[39:01.150 --> 39:01.530]  Yes, no.
[39:02.770 --> 39:04.250]  Okay, so you had Logan.
[39:04.250 --> 39:05.310]  You had Logan Blueprints.
[39:05.390 --> 39:07.390]  How did you get Logan Blueprints in the first place?
[39:07.530 --> 39:11.370]  There's a well-known architectural firm about three blocks from here.
[39:11.650 --> 39:17.650]  And one morning I was strolling along and the garbage had not been picked up by their commercial carter.
[39:17.790 --> 39:23.890]  And they had literally 50-some-odd giant books of blueprints of everything you wanted.
[39:24.510 --> 39:25.890]  Was JFK maybe one of them?
[39:26.010 --> 39:26.790]  No, it was Logan Airport.
[39:26.790 --> 39:28.490]  Okay, well, who designed JFK?
[39:28.710 --> 39:31.330]  That architect's dumpster and see what they have thrown out.
[39:31.430 --> 39:32.090]  An excellent idea.
[39:32.270 --> 39:44.030]  But about this JFK story where they plan to blow up a pipeline that extends from Linden, New Jersey, through Staten Island, through Brooklyn, through Queens, to both JFK and LaGuardia.
[39:45.610 --> 39:50.910]  I live in the neighborhood where this pipeline goes under New York Harbor and hits Brooklyn.
[39:51.250 --> 39:53.970]  And it's marked and everybody knows it's there.
[39:54.010 --> 39:56.710]  And it's hard to blow up a pipeline that's underground.
[39:57.590 --> 39:59.850]  Well, what if you somehow lighted a blaze?
[40:00.090 --> 40:02.330]  And it's, I mean, how realistic is this thing?
[40:02.510 --> 40:04.890]  Well, where the hole is, you get a big blaze.
[40:05.030 --> 40:05.350]  Okay.
[40:05.630 --> 40:07.530]  And it can spout into the air.
[40:07.610 --> 40:17.790]  And in fact, the company that runs this fuel pipeline, Buckeye Pipeline, they had a few years ago in Edison, New Jersey, a backhoe hitting one of their pipelines.
[40:17.790 --> 40:21.490]  And it destroyed an apartment complex at three in the morning.
[40:21.670 --> 40:23.270]  And believe it or not, no one was killed.
[40:24.690 --> 40:30.790]  Several dozen, if not hundred units and were totally, totally obliterated off the face of the earth.
[40:30.790 --> 40:32.170]  But yet no one was killed.
[40:32.350 --> 40:35.330]  And it didn't go the entire length of the pipeline.
[40:35.330 --> 40:36.850]  It was just where the breach was.
[40:36.970 --> 40:44.070]  So you think if this plot to, quote unquote, destroy JFK Airport had gone through, would it in fact have destroyed JFK Airport?
[40:44.150 --> 40:44.950]  Would nobody have been hurt?
[40:45.030 --> 40:46.170]  Would it have been colossal damage?
[40:46.310 --> 40:47.110]  People would have been hurt.
[40:47.350 --> 40:49.870]  There would have been major, major damage.
[40:49.870 --> 40:53.030]  But it depends on where they decide to plant the bomb.
[40:53.310 --> 40:55.910]  There are fuel tanks at JFK Airport.
[40:56.010 --> 40:58.330]  They could have conceivably blown all of them up.
[40:58.510 --> 41:00.410]  And there was an employee of JFK involved in this.
[41:00.410 --> 41:01.990]  A former employee, yeah.
[41:02.250 --> 41:07.190]  But it would not have spread and had a conflagration through Queens, through Brooklyn, through Staten Island.
[41:07.370 --> 41:09.110]  It would have been limited to JFK Airport.
[41:09.230 --> 41:16.210]  If they had just blown it at some site where the pipeline was, you would have had a fire there.
[41:19.870 --> 41:25.030]  If their timing was off, they would have essentially shot themselves in the foot, so to speak.
[41:25.170 --> 41:35.010]  If the pipeline ruptured at Brooklyn first, and then they set it off at JFK, yes, whatever fuel was there would have gone up, but it wouldn't have continued to feed into that.
[41:35.250 --> 41:43.850]  Now, I remember I was looking on the news, and they were saying how, like, the, whatever, investigating agencies had said, you know, it would blow up the whole pipeline and all that.
[41:44.030 --> 41:47.170]  And the company itself came back and said, no, absolutely not.
[41:47.170 --> 41:50.750]  We have safety measures in place and all these things, and that couldn't possibly happen.
[41:50.930 --> 41:51.830]  Buckeye Pipeline.
[41:51.970 --> 41:57.690]  So, I want to know, you know, I mean, where are these agencies getting their information from, if not from the company?
[41:57.790 --> 42:01.410]  And, Mike, I believe Mayor Bloomberg even had a comment on this.
[42:01.630 --> 42:05.610]  Yes, Mayor Bloomberg said, and I quote, there are lots of threats to you in the world.
[42:05.690 --> 42:07.730]  There's the threat of a heart attack for genetic reasons.
[42:07.730 --> 42:09.610]  You can't sit there and worry about everything.
[42:09.770 --> 42:10.190]  Get a life.
[42:10.510 --> 42:11.290]  Get a life.
[42:11.410 --> 42:12.050]  That's what he said.
[42:12.210 --> 42:13.210]  You know, that's awesome.
[42:13.210 --> 42:16.470]  I got to say, who is he saying that to, to the feds, to us?
[42:16.630 --> 42:17.130]  To the press.
[42:17.290 --> 42:24.650]  I mean, it was directed towards the people, I think, but he was talking to the press, CBS, WCBS.
[42:25.010 --> 42:34.590]  And meanwhile, underground, not the pipelines, but the subways, I believe they want to establish a new condition.
[42:34.590 --> 42:36.850]  What's this condition called, according to the New York Sun?
[42:39.950 --> 42:42.750]  I think, you don't need to look it up to remember this phrase.
[42:42.930 --> 42:43.350]  This is great.
[42:43.490 --> 42:43.970]  This is classic.
[42:44.030 --> 42:44.390]  Total order.
[42:44.470 --> 42:44.970]  Total order.
[42:46.270 --> 42:48.090]  Total order sought on trains.
[42:49.710 --> 42:51.010]  Now, this is the police...
[42:51.010 --> 42:52.190]  Well, this isn't the subways.
[42:52.230 --> 42:53.490]  This is the commuter trains.
[42:53.590 --> 42:54.310]  Oh, it's the commuter trains.
[42:54.490 --> 42:54.590]  I'm sorry.
[42:54.610 --> 42:55.490]  Metro North Long Island Railroad.
[42:55.630 --> 42:57.550]  Okay, so we don't need total order on the subways.
[42:57.610 --> 42:58.850]  We just need them on the commuter trains.
[42:59.390 --> 43:00.590]  We might already have it.
[43:00.650 --> 43:01.210]  It's not really...
[43:01.210 --> 43:03.250]  Believe me, we do not already have total order on the subway trains.
[43:03.250 --> 43:04.250]  I was just on the subway.
[43:04.370 --> 43:04.670]  I don't...
[43:04.670 --> 43:05.470]  No total order, right?
[43:06.130 --> 43:20.490]  So, basically, moving to protect New York City from attacks like the terrorist bombings in London and Madrid, the NYPD and the MTA are teaming up on a counter-terrorism initiative to strengthen the city's defenses on commuter trains, according to the police commissioner,
[43:20.830 --> 43:21.410]  Raymond Kelly.
[43:21.510 --> 43:23.590]  Now, the program is called TOMS.
[43:23.650 --> 43:26.230]  Anybody care to guess what TOMS stands for?
[43:26.590 --> 43:28.830]  Total Order... something system.
[43:29.030 --> 43:29.670]  Municipal System.
[43:30.470 --> 43:30.770]  What?
[43:31.430 --> 43:34.510]  I don't have it in front of me, so you're going to have to... I don't have the answer.
[43:35.150 --> 43:35.550]  Emmanuel?
[43:35.850 --> 43:36.530]  Yes, Bernie, do you have it?
[43:36.670 --> 43:44.710]  Well, if this has anything to do with the federal government, because it's Uncle Sam and it's called TOMS, would it mean the agents enforcing this could be referred to as Uncle Tom?
[43:45.310 --> 43:45.710]  Perhaps.
[43:45.710 --> 43:46.610]  We can look into that.
[43:46.690 --> 43:47.170]  But I found it.
[43:47.250 --> 43:48.150]  I found the actual answer.
[43:48.250 --> 43:49.890]  It's Total Order Maintenance Sweeps.
[43:50.730 --> 44:00.570]  So, the sweeps where a patrol of officers inspects each train car on every train that pulls into a commuter station are being implemented randomly across the city.
[44:01.030 --> 44:03.750]  Now, if it's only across the city, how can that affect commuter rails?
[44:03.750 --> 44:05.970]  There's only a couple of stops within the city limits.
[44:06.190 --> 44:06.910]  Well, there's a few.
[44:06.930 --> 44:10.410]  And those are the stops that you really want to check, because it's when the most people are on the train.
[44:10.410 --> 44:12.610]  You don't care if the train blows up in Nassau County, then.
[44:12.810 --> 44:13.290]  Do you care?
[44:13.810 --> 44:14.850]  Yeah, I do, actually.
[44:15.050 --> 44:15.230]  All right.
[44:15.530 --> 44:17.490]  This is totally counterproductive.
[44:17.670 --> 44:19.310]  Let us pretend that I am a terrorist.
[44:19.450 --> 44:25.070]  Where would I like to blow up my target train when it hits a commuter station in New York City?
[44:25.250 --> 44:27.650]  Well, gee, what happens when the train pulls up there?
[44:27.650 --> 44:29.730]  The police get on, and I blow it up.
[44:30.110 --> 44:30.790]  Oh, wow.
[44:30.990 --> 44:31.270]  Wow.
[44:31.730 --> 44:32.650]  You know, that's ingenious.
[44:32.750 --> 44:33.850]  I never would have even thought of that.
[44:33.950 --> 44:35.770]  That is not total order, Jim.
[44:35.930 --> 44:39.370]  But the point is, this is why total order seems not to be a good idea.
[44:39.670 --> 44:42.130]  You should start inspecting it in the boondocks.
[44:42.730 --> 44:43.230]  All right.
[44:43.390 --> 44:44.210]  And, you know...
[44:44.210 --> 44:45.910]  Well, maybe they are, but they're just not telling us.
[44:45.930 --> 44:47.010]  Maybe this is to throw us off.
[44:47.010 --> 44:47.390]  Here's the thing.
[44:47.450 --> 44:50.850]  It's the New York City Police Department doing it, so they can't go up there.
[44:51.130 --> 44:51.510]  Oh, you're right.
[44:51.510 --> 44:52.890]  Yeah, they can't leave their jurisdiction.
[44:52.890 --> 44:53.450]  Oh, no.
[44:53.650 --> 44:54.210]  Yes, they can.
[44:54.430 --> 44:58.410]  New York City police officers are able to make arrests anywhere in the state.
[44:58.590 --> 45:00.610]  But they have to get the permission of the...
[45:00.610 --> 45:00.990]  No.
[45:01.430 --> 45:02.030]  Are you serious?
[45:02.030 --> 45:06.110]  They can just go anywhere in the state and make arrests without even telling the local cops what they're doing?
[45:06.290 --> 45:06.510]  Yes.
[45:06.610 --> 45:07.530]  They can make field trips.
[45:08.210 --> 45:10.950]  It's considered impolite, but legally, yes, they can.
[45:11.070 --> 45:13.910]  Any lawyer that's an expert on this, if I'm wrong, please correct me.
[45:14.010 --> 45:19.190]  Does that mean the Elmira Police Department can come down to Nassau County and arrest somebody?
[45:19.350 --> 45:20.050]  Theoretically, yes.
[45:20.170 --> 45:20.490]  All right.
[45:20.830 --> 45:21.390]  We'll have to see about that.
[45:21.390 --> 45:23.010]  You know, they do this often to chase fugitives.
[45:23.270 --> 45:44.810]  But the TOMS program, which the NYPD implemented in the subway shortly after September 11th, yeah, I don't think we knew about this, and first introduced to commuter trains last month, so it's been that long, is designed to preempt a terrorist attack on a train through active police inspection while also discouraging would-be terrorists by displaying a sizable police presence in train stations.
[45:44.810 --> 45:47.650]  Now, this is kind of interesting right here.
[45:47.830 --> 45:54.730]  They have training, special training, to make eye contact with every passenger.
[45:55.250 --> 45:55.610]  Yeah.
[45:55.710 --> 46:04.090]  I don't know how they do it if you're staring at the ground, but they make eye contact with every passenger, and they look for anyone, anyone who may appear startled by the police presence.
[46:05.130 --> 46:10.730]  I don't know about you, but I think that would be an entire train full of people that see these massive amounts of cops coming through.
[46:10.910 --> 46:12.050]  What if you're reading a book?
[46:12.890 --> 46:14.450]  I guess you're not allowed to do that anymore.
[46:14.630 --> 46:19.470]  What if you're reading a book that has a startling passage in it, and you appear to be startled by the police presence?
[46:19.470 --> 46:21.090]  What if you're reading the newspaper about this?
[46:21.090 --> 46:22.290]  I think you might be startled, too.
[46:22.290 --> 46:24.550]  What if you're asleep, and the cop, like, taps your foot?
[46:24.670 --> 46:25.590]  Do you wake up startled?
[46:25.770 --> 46:27.030]  Are you suddenly a suspect?
[46:27.270 --> 46:28.910]  I had that happen to me on a German train.
[46:29.130 --> 46:30.310]  A cop tapped me on the foot.
[46:30.310 --> 46:31.190]  I just sort of said no.
[46:31.270 --> 46:35.390]  I thought he was somebody asking for money, and in fact, he was asking to see my ticket, and I almost got into a lot of trouble.
[46:36.090 --> 46:36.370]  Yeah.
[46:36.910 --> 46:40.630]  Okay, Panic of the Week is promotional facts mistaken for a bomb threat.
[46:40.770 --> 46:41.350]  You hear about this one?
[46:41.350 --> 46:51.130]  A faulty bank fax printed a message that was misinterpreted as a bomb threat last Wednesday, leading authorities to evacuate more than a dozen neighboring businesses and a daycare center.
[46:51.250 --> 46:52.650]  There's always a daycare center.
[46:52.810 --> 46:55.910]  A prize for anyone who can guess what city this happened in.
[46:56.910 --> 46:58.910]  Well, actually, it is in theory.
[46:59.570 --> 47:02.450]  Realistically, it's not Boston, but it's Ashland.
[47:02.670 --> 47:05.110]  Is that, like, right next to Boston, a part of Boston?
[47:05.210 --> 47:07.250]  It's the same damn state.
[47:07.250 --> 47:11.250]  The branch manager of the Bank of America called police around 10 a.m.
[47:11.350 --> 47:15.430]  after receiving a fax containing images of a lit match and a bomb with a fuse.
[47:15.790 --> 47:20.710]  A text explaining the fax was an internal bank promotion that failed to transmit.
[47:20.870 --> 47:26.590]  The missing text included the phrases, The countdown begins, and small business commitment week, June 4th to 8th.
[47:26.990 --> 47:31.850]  The fax machine malfunctioned, so a partial image came through that looked somewhat suspicious, they said.
[47:32.370 --> 47:37.050]  And fears also arose because the branch received a suspicious package delivered by a customer around the same time.
[47:37.370 --> 47:40.610]  And here's a picture of the fax here, which obviously we can't show you over the radio.
[47:40.830 --> 47:46.690]  The countdown begins, mark your calendar, and a little timer, and I don't...
[47:46.690 --> 47:47.610]  Is that a bomb?
[47:47.710 --> 47:48.590]  What is it that they're lighting?
[47:48.650 --> 47:49.530]  It looks very flat.
[47:49.990 --> 47:50.810]  It looks like a UFO.
[47:51.170 --> 47:52.510]  Why would they be lighting a UFO?
[47:52.650 --> 47:55.110]  Here, I'll give it to you, and maybe you guys can figure it out where they couldn't.
[47:55.110 --> 47:58.230]  That's like a Rocky and Bullwinkle Boris Badenov bomb.
[47:58.410 --> 47:59.270]  Oh, yeah, it is a bomb.
[47:59.410 --> 47:59.930]  It is a bomb?
[48:00.090 --> 48:01.290]  I mean, it's a cartoon bomb.
[48:01.430 --> 48:02.650]  But this is an internal bank thing.
[48:02.770 --> 48:03.730]  They were sending this to themselves.
[48:04.010 --> 48:04.690]  This is what happened.
[48:04.970 --> 48:11.470]  It's just a bunch of clip art, and they couldn't fit the circular bomb, so they kind of like skewed it down so it looks like a saucer.
[48:11.510 --> 48:12.570]  It's really funny looking.
[48:12.770 --> 48:13.030]  Wow.
[48:13.490 --> 48:13.930]  All right.
[48:14.010 --> 48:15.810]  Well, they could have died laughing, I suppose.
[48:16.770 --> 48:25.310]  Okay, I want to call one number that a listener sent in, because I'd like to get this out of the way before we take any phone calls.
[48:25.890 --> 48:39.030]  This listener writes, A while back I sent a letter which was printed in the magazine regarding a mysterious phone number which reads back a few random digits, a few static digits, plays back about 10 to 12 DTMF tones, that's touch tones, very quickly,
[48:39.050 --> 48:40.490]  and then drops to a busy signal.
[48:41.010 --> 48:43.630]  This number, well, I'm going to read it after we call it.
[48:43.730 --> 48:47.610]  But so far I haven't heard anything from anyone trying to figure out what this strange number is.
[48:47.650 --> 48:52.930]  I was just curious if any of you guys have checked it out or would be interested in participating in a little project to figure this one out.
[48:53.150 --> 48:57.070]  Let's give it a call and see just what we get here.
[49:02.550 --> 49:03.650]  Listen very carefully.
[49:08.430 --> 49:16.550]  2,392, 7, 1, 1, 4, 0, 5, 1, 4, 8, 9.
[49:23.160 --> 49:24.620]  Okay, that's pretty weird, isn't it?
[49:26.220 --> 49:30.180]  And those numbers, I believe, change if you call at different times.
[49:30.180 --> 49:31.500]  I'm not sure which ones change.
[49:32.000 --> 49:33.800]  And the touch tones, they should have sounded cleaner.
[49:33.800 --> 49:37.360]  I think that's something with our phone system that didn't allow them to transmit perfectly.
[49:37.780 --> 49:40.300]  This is going to start another number station craze, is it?
[49:40.320 --> 49:43.420]  I don't think so, but this has been around for a while and there are lots of numbers like this.
[49:43.520 --> 49:47.700]  It's something to do with the phone company, some data that they're transmitting.
[49:48.300 --> 49:49.380]  And I don't know what it is.
[49:49.520 --> 49:51.680]  It's driving me crazy, but if anyone out there understands it, please...
[49:51.680 --> 49:52.760]  Did you decode the touch tones?
[49:52.760 --> 49:58.740]  I did not myself, but I would imagine they probably correlate to the number called, but they could be anything.
[49:58.940 --> 50:02.640]  The phone number is 1-877-706-2042.
[50:04.080 --> 50:10.180]  And that number used to be owned by Casual Corner, according to this reader, which was a women's clothing store.
[50:10.200 --> 50:13.020]  And they would read back the amount of money left on a gift card.
[50:13.060 --> 50:17.200]  The company has since gone out of business and replaced by this.
[50:17.620 --> 50:19.800]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[50:19.800 --> 50:33.520]  If you have any questions or comments on the program, questions for Kevin Mitnick, who's joining us tonight, questions about some of the crimes that maybe he and or Bernie might have been committing in the years past, they're in a talkative mood tonight,
[50:33.520 --> 50:35.300]  so who knows what that kind of information will come out.
[50:35.440 --> 50:39.160]  People could also email us at O-T-H at 2600.com.
[50:39.160 --> 50:41.960]  That's right, and that's completely free.
[50:42.280 --> 50:44.660]  We don't charge any premium amount for you to email us.
[50:45.200 --> 50:48.140]  All right, 212-209-2900.
[50:48.280 --> 50:49.200]  Other radio stations do.
[50:49.460 --> 50:50.340]  Other radio shows do.
[50:50.660 --> 50:51.220]  Good evening.
[50:51.380 --> 50:52.280]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:53.140 --> 50:54.380]  Hi, can I speak to Emmanuel?
[50:54.700 --> 50:55.520]  You're on the air.
[50:56.240 --> 50:56.540]  Hi.
[50:56.540 --> 50:58.160]  I wanted to thank you guys.
[50:58.440 --> 51:06.400]  I'm a Verizon subscriber, and you did a piece on the LG VX8100 about getting into the service menu.
[51:06.520 --> 51:07.300]  Ah, the service menu.
[51:07.400 --> 51:07.840]  Yes, yes.
[51:08.040 --> 51:19.540]  And I was able to enable MP3 playback on my phone, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, even though it's not advertised in the manual for the phone or on the website.
[51:19.820 --> 51:20.100]  Uh-huh.
[51:20.240 --> 51:23.000]  And your life has become much happier as a result, right?
[51:23.820 --> 51:24.420]  Of course.
[51:24.420 --> 51:27.360]  All right, well, more proof of a happier life through radio.
[51:27.540 --> 51:29.560]  Thanks for your call, and thanks for your feedback.
[51:29.680 --> 51:30.720]  Let's take another one.
[51:31.620 --> 51:32.300]  Good evening.
[51:32.320 --> 51:33.820]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:34.120 --> 51:36.660]  And that's a dial tone, so we're going to move on to this one over here.
[51:36.700 --> 51:37.040]  Good evening.
[51:37.220 --> 51:38.000]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:38.600 --> 51:39.000]  Hello.
[51:39.240 --> 51:39.800]  Hi, how are you?
[51:40.160 --> 51:40.880]  I'm fine.
[51:41.480 --> 51:51.560]  I have a question as a non-techie, and that is, if there can be cell phone jammers, can a cell phone jammer jammer be created?
[51:52.080 --> 51:52.480]  No.
[51:52.480 --> 51:53.320]  You can count to those.
[51:54.060 --> 51:54.920]  That's a good question.
[51:55.060 --> 51:55.500]  That's a good question.
[51:55.580 --> 51:57.120]  But Redbird, why don't you tell us why that's not possible?
[51:57.240 --> 52:06.560]  Well, basically what the cell phone jammer is doing is raising the signal-to-noise ratio so high that your phone can no longer connect to the cell phone tower.
[52:06.680 --> 52:11.120]  So once that happens, there's really no way to undo that.
[52:11.220 --> 52:13.520]  I mean, it's just you're creating a whole bunch of noise.
[52:13.680 --> 52:19.180]  Well, of course, if the signal from the tower is greater than the jammer signal, that will override it.
[52:19.180 --> 52:23.080]  You can do that, but then you'd interfere with other cell sites and stuff like that.
[52:23.460 --> 52:26.440]  There's really not a technically sound way to do it.
[52:26.560 --> 52:33.680]  I mean, in non-techie terms, basically, you're flooding the area with radio waves, and so there's no way to kind of pick through those, right?
[52:34.460 --> 52:34.720]  Okay.
[52:34.800 --> 52:35.880]  Well, thanks for that question.
[52:35.960 --> 52:36.380]  Good question.
[52:36.800 --> 52:37.940]  And let's take another phone call.
[52:37.940 --> 52:38.320]  Good evening.
[52:38.520 --> 52:39.320]  You're on off the hook.
[52:39.880 --> 52:40.580]  Oh, hi.
[52:40.740 --> 52:40.880]  Good.
[52:41.060 --> 52:41.120]  How are you?
[52:42.880 --> 52:43.620]  I don't know what...
[52:43.620 --> 52:43.880]  Oh, wait.
[52:43.940 --> 52:44.240]  I'm sorry.
[52:44.400 --> 52:45.980]  Let me put you on hold so I can rescue you.
[52:47.340 --> 52:48.260]  And we're back.
[52:48.340 --> 52:48.620]  Go ahead.
[52:49.800 --> 52:50.160]  Okay.
[52:50.220 --> 52:50.520]  You're back?
[52:50.620 --> 52:50.840]  Yes.
[52:51.300 --> 52:51.660]  Okay.
[52:51.900 --> 52:55.980]  I called to give you some thoughts on that strange phone number.
[52:56.180 --> 52:56.540]  Okay.
[52:56.580 --> 52:56.800]  Go ahead.
[52:57.420 --> 53:01.840]  I called a local hospital once, and I got a recording very similar to that.
[53:01.980 --> 53:09.300]  When I asked the hospital personnel what it was, as they said, it was in automatic systems monitoring.
[53:10.660 --> 53:11.060]  What?
[53:11.220 --> 53:11.620]  Patients?
[53:11.920 --> 53:12.720]  No, no, no, no.
[53:12.740 --> 53:12.920]  Oh.
[53:13.040 --> 53:25.040]  They were monitoring things like the engineering of the hospital, the temperature and things like that, so someone could call in and see how the...
[53:25.820 --> 53:31.980]  Well, I can't imagine a more confusing way of doing that because there's all sorts of numbers and beeps going on there, but if that's what it is...
[53:31.980 --> 53:35.320]  Whoever was the engineer in charge of all these systems would know exactly what the numbers meant.
[53:35.440 --> 53:36.180]  And I'm sure we'll...
[53:36.180 --> 53:37.140]  It wouldn't mean anything to anyone else.
[53:37.200 --> 53:41.660]  We'll get a registered letter from them telling us to never call that number again, so we'll just have to see.
[53:41.760 --> 53:41.940]  All right.
[53:41.980 --> 53:42.940]  Well, thanks for the insight.
[53:43.100 --> 53:44.060]  That would be fun.
[53:44.280 --> 53:50.780]  If I were in a hospital, I'd want someone on site who could deal with any problems in the, you know, equipment breaking down.
[53:50.900 --> 53:51.560]  It would be nice.
[53:51.580 --> 53:52.260]  That's a good idea.
[53:52.460 --> 53:53.980]  I'm sure they'll pass it along to upper management.
[53:54.100 --> 53:56.880]  I mean, it's a good theory, though, in terms of it could be a readout of something.
[53:57.060 --> 53:57.620]  You know, if you...
[53:57.620 --> 53:58.460]  I mean, it's...
[53:58.460 --> 54:02.860]  One of the things, you know, the electric company always comes to people's houses and checks the meters.
[54:02.860 --> 54:05.640]  It could be something similar for that, but maybe for a larger system.
[54:06.680 --> 54:06.900]  All right.
[54:06.960 --> 54:08.060]  Well, I'm sure we'll find out.
[54:08.740 --> 54:09.320]  Good evening.
[54:09.460 --> 54:09.980]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:10.980 --> 54:11.380]  Yeah.
[54:11.540 --> 54:11.840]  Hello?
[54:12.120 --> 54:12.500]  Yes, go ahead.
[54:13.140 --> 54:14.800]  Yeah, Hugo Chavez.
[54:15.040 --> 54:15.580]  I tried to discuss...
[54:15.580 --> 54:15.880]  All right.
[54:15.880 --> 54:17.820]  We're not going to talk about Hugo Chavez here.
[54:17.820 --> 54:18.140]  Good evening.
[54:18.140 --> 54:19.240]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:20.340 --> 54:20.740]  Hi.
[54:20.940 --> 54:21.120]  Hi.
[54:21.120 --> 54:21.660]  What's on your mind?
[54:22.420 --> 54:22.860]  Good evening.
[54:23.100 --> 54:32.740]  I heard something about attacks being increased for broadcasters that want to stream their content on the Internet.
[54:32.860 --> 54:33.420]  Okay.
[54:33.420 --> 54:34.500]  Have you heard something about that?
[54:34.540 --> 54:34.840]  Yes.
[54:35.100 --> 54:44.880]  There have been all sorts of potential legislation passed that would make it virtually impossible for online broadcasters to play any sort of music and do all sorts of other things.
[54:45.940 --> 54:48.640]  And last I checked, has anyone checked the paper today?
[54:48.820 --> 54:49.180]  It's...
[54:49.180 --> 54:50.280]  I think it's...
[54:50.280 --> 54:51.200]  It's being...
[54:51.200 --> 54:53.240]  Obviously, it's being challenged, but I don't think it's in effect yet.
[54:53.240 --> 54:55.600]  I heard there was a reprieve that was possible.
[54:56.100 --> 54:57.320]  That's the last I heard about it.
[54:57.380 --> 54:58.500]  Bernie, do you know anything else about this?
[54:58.500 --> 55:03.320]  I haven't heard any breaking stories about that legislation being enacted.
[55:03.540 --> 55:10.760]  But yes, online broadcasters are under threat by content producers who hold copyrights who want lots of money.
[55:10.820 --> 55:18.080]  Every time you broadcast over the net, just some song or portion of the song, it's really outrageous.
[55:18.220 --> 55:19.920]  And we're online broadcasters as well.
[55:20.060 --> 55:24.380]  We do broadcast on this radio station here in New York City, but we're also picked up on the internet.
[55:24.960 --> 55:30.180]  And of course, people can download our archives at www.2600.com slash off the hook.
[55:30.640 --> 55:32.500]  So yeah, we're affected by this as well.
[55:32.620 --> 55:34.860]  So very important point, something we'll certainly be following.
[55:35.500 --> 55:36.460]  Let's take another phone call.
[55:36.540 --> 55:36.820]  Good evening.
[55:36.960 --> 55:37.560]  You're on off the hook.
[55:37.920 --> 55:39.020]  Viva Hugo Chavez.
[55:39.300 --> 55:39.500]  Viva.
[55:39.580 --> 55:40.660]  I'm crying out loud.
[55:41.120 --> 55:42.700]  If it's not the Cuba guy, it's this guy.
[55:42.820 --> 55:43.420]  Maybe it's the same guy.
[55:43.500 --> 55:43.720]  Good evening.
[55:43.860 --> 55:44.700]  You're on off...
[55:44.700 --> 55:45.160]  Uh-oh.
[55:45.780 --> 55:46.840]  I prefer this caller.
[55:47.460 --> 55:48.320]  You're on off the hook.
[55:49.180 --> 55:49.760]  Speak up.
[55:51.240 --> 55:52.360]  We have a shy person here.
[55:53.180 --> 55:53.660]  Hello?
[55:53.860 --> 55:54.360]  Is anybody there?
[55:54.600 --> 55:54.920]  No?
[55:55.720 --> 55:56.200]  Okay.
[55:56.440 --> 55:57.760]  We're going to try one more.
[55:58.240 --> 55:59.440]  And let's go over here.
[55:59.520 --> 55:59.780]  Good evening.
[55:59.880 --> 56:00.660]  You're on off the hook.
[56:02.220 --> 56:03.040]  Speak up, please.
[56:03.880 --> 56:04.680]  Hello, Emmanuel?
[56:04.920 --> 56:04.960]  Yes.
[56:04.960 --> 56:05.200]  Go ahead.
[56:05.920 --> 56:06.300]  Hi.
[56:06.700 --> 56:08.220]  How are you guys doing tonight?
[56:08.420 --> 56:09.080]  Where are you calling from?
[56:10.660 --> 56:11.560]  Toledo, Ohio.
[56:11.760 --> 56:11.980]  Okay.
[56:12.020 --> 56:19.080]  You guys were doing ringback tones on telephone calls last week on the phone?
[56:19.240 --> 56:19.500]  Yes.
[56:20.100 --> 56:22.180]  And you dialed the 419.
[56:22.180 --> 56:26.980]  And I wanted to mention that was a Toledo area code.
[56:27.380 --> 56:32.540]  Now, do you happen to know the guy that owns that particular step system that he operates in his house or something?
[56:33.840 --> 56:34.600]  Unfortunately, no.
[56:34.680 --> 56:35.980]  I do not know that one.
[56:36.200 --> 56:39.140]  Well, maybe we can track him down someday.
[56:39.140 --> 56:41.280]  I'm sure there's all kinds of interesting conversations we can have.
[56:41.480 --> 56:42.780]  You have about 10 seconds.
[56:42.860 --> 56:43.040]  Anything?
[56:43.040 --> 56:52.540]  I also wanted to tell Kevin that I was reading his Art of Deception book, and I am also thoroughly enjoying that.
[56:52.540 --> 56:54.820]  And so I wish him the best of luck.
[56:55.420 --> 56:55.960]  Thank you.
[56:56.580 --> 56:56.900]  All right.
[56:56.980 --> 56:57.940]  Thanks for that call.
[56:58.060 --> 57:00.240]  That's going to do it for us this week.
[57:00.320 --> 57:00.660]  I'm sorry.
[57:00.900 --> 57:01.300]  Redbird, go ahead.
[57:02.280 --> 57:02.740]  Hang on.
[57:02.800 --> 57:03.840]  For some reason, your mic isn't working.
[57:03.900 --> 57:04.080]  Go ahead.
[57:04.220 --> 57:07.000]  The Vintage Computer Festival will be occurring in Wall, New Jersey.
[57:07.460 --> 57:08.460]  Many of us will be attending.
[57:09.760 --> 57:10.400]  Vintage.org.
[57:10.580 --> 57:11.040]  You can check it out.
[57:11.140 --> 57:12.340]  Vintage.org is the website?
[57:12.340 --> 57:14.120]  Okay, and that's coming up this weekend.
[57:14.460 --> 57:14.880]  Saturday, Sunday.
[57:15.120 --> 57:15.500]  All right.
[57:15.980 --> 57:18.420]  We are out of time once again.
[57:18.520 --> 57:18.960]  It's so sad.
[57:18.980 --> 57:19.800]  I wish we had more time.
[57:20.280 --> 57:23.800]  But we will be back again next week with all sorts of other antics.
[57:24.040 --> 57:27.240]  And Redbird, I mean Red Hack, I hope we see you again real soon.
[57:27.640 --> 57:28.500]  Well, one day.
[57:28.620 --> 57:29.080]  Best of luck.
[57:29.280 --> 57:29.820]  Good night.
[57:30.720 --> 57:35.260]  Are you happy here in Theme Park USA?
[57:37.820 --> 57:43.640]  And do you sometimes wish that your life was plug-and-play?
[57:46.660 --> 57:52.200]  And are the words to this song concise enough to follow?
[57:54.380 --> 58:00.280]  Is your smart food simple enough to swallow?
[58:01.880 --> 58:06.540]  We're dumb and down, dumb-dee-dum-dum.
[58:06.720 --> 58:10.600]  Dumb and down, dumb-dee-dum-dum.
[58:44.930 --> 58:51.110]  Are we only eating worms from a can just because we can?
[58:53.670 --> 58:58.830]  And if Disneyland, for we understand.
[59:01.630 --> 59:07.950]  Will our history be written out in headlines?
[59:11.130 --> 59:16.990]  Diamonds, the miracles in my mind.
[59:17.390 --> 59:21.810]  We're dumb and down, dumb-dee-dum-dum.
[59:21.950 --> 59:25.790]  Dumb and down, dumb-dee-dum-dum.
[59:27.050 --> 59:28.630]  Okay, quiet on the set.
[59:28.630 --> 59:29.510]  Here we are.
[59:29.810 --> 59:32.590]  Here we are in, um, excuse me.
[59:33.110 --> 59:34.730]  Here we are in New York.
[59:34.870 --> 59:37.650]  Wonderful New York in a beautiful spring day.
[59:38.230 --> 59:40.690]  Off the hook was fantastic as usual.
[59:40.690 --> 59:40.790]  Yeah, also, I'm a good friend.
[59:40.790 --> 59:41.050]  All right.