[00:02.180 --> 00:17.440]  On December 29th, the Rare Radio Show returns once again to offer you the best and soulful dance music, from bebop to disco, from deep house to fusion, from Brazilian to Afrobeat, and everything else in between.
[00:17.440 --> 00:23.640]  Featuring your DJs, M-Ski, Monk One, 3D, and Tomcat.
[00:23.900 --> 00:41.240]  The party starts at 11.59pm to 5am, and it's only heard on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York, broadcasting throughout the Tri-State area, and streaming live throughout planet Earth on WBAI.org.
[00:41.460 --> 00:44.620]  Once again, it's a party on the Rare Radio.
[00:50.970 --> 00:52.330]  And a very good evening.
[00:52.330 --> 00:54.530]  You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:54.790 --> 00:55.390]  It's 7pm.
[00:55.670 --> 00:56.850]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:02.280 --> 01:06.740]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:07.700 --> 01:12.280]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:12.960 --> 01:20.490]  We couldn't get much worse, but bum-diddly-bum, for the best, expect the worst.
[01:21.090 --> 01:24.000]  I hope that's understood, bum-diddly-bum!
[02:09.400 --> 02:10.920]  And a very good evening once again.
[02:11.010 --> 02:11.980]  The show is Off the Hook.
[02:12.200 --> 02:14.790]  I'm Redbird, joined in the studio with Not Kevin.
[02:15.040 --> 02:15.460]  Yeah, hello.
[02:16.420 --> 02:17.500]  And Bernie S.
[02:17.560 --> 02:18.220]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:18.600 --> 02:20.290]  Greetings from Not in Philadelphia.
[02:20.290 --> 02:22.720]  I'm in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania tonight, from a landline.
[02:22.900 --> 02:23.140]  Oh!
[02:23.920 --> 02:24.820]  I misspoke.
[02:25.000 --> 02:25.680]  Ah, no problem.
[02:25.680 --> 02:30.780]  And hopefully we have Emmanuel, who's over in Berlin, getting ready for the CCC Congress.
[02:30.780 --> 02:30.840]  Hello!
[02:30.840 --> 02:32.280]  Can anybody hear me on this confounded phone?
[02:32.350 --> 02:32.780]  Hello, hello.
[02:32.960 --> 02:33.920]  We can hear you just fine.
[02:34.120 --> 02:34.600]  Ah, good.
[02:34.680 --> 02:36.340]  And you're over there for the CCC Congress?
[02:37.010 --> 02:38.880]  Ah, yeah, well, I was going to say that.
[02:38.980 --> 02:44.380]  But yeah, I'm over here for the CCC Congress, which takes place in Berlin, Germany, every year at this time.
[02:44.380 --> 02:53.540]  In fact, it takes place on the 27th, 28th, the 29th, and the 30th of every December, regardless of the day of the week that it is.
[02:56.660 --> 02:58.300]  And do you have any news from there yet?
[02:58.600 --> 02:59.720]  How's the atmosphere?
[02:59.900 --> 03:02.080]  Well, I haven't heard of it yet, because if you'll note, today is the 26th.
[03:02.300 --> 03:02.520]  Right.
[03:02.800 --> 03:03.500]  It hasn't yet begun.
[03:03.640 --> 03:04.600]  Well, you're still in Berlin.
[03:04.840 --> 03:06.120]  I'm in Berlin, that is true.
[03:06.120 --> 03:10.740]  And I have been to the site, and I've talked to a bunch of people, and there's a whole mob over there right now.
[03:10.740 --> 03:13.060]  Now, in fact, our own Mike is over there now.
[03:13.200 --> 03:14.180]  He's got a DECT phone.
[03:14.800 --> 03:16.820]  Unfortunately, we're having trouble reaching him.
[03:18.120 --> 03:18.880]  We're going to try.
[03:19.040 --> 03:19.520]  We're going to keep trying.
[03:19.660 --> 03:20.120]  Is that right, Redbird?
[03:20.200 --> 03:21.400]  Yeah, we're going to keep trying, Mike.
[03:21.700 --> 03:23.320]  We've had a lot of trouble reaching him.
[03:23.320 --> 03:31.020]  I think we've had a lot of problems with that phone system in general in the past, but there's always been a lot of stuff going on before the conference when I was over there.
[03:31.680 --> 03:31.900]  Uh-huh.
[03:32.340 --> 03:34.240]  The DECT phone system is interesting.
[03:34.500 --> 03:50.300]  I mean, it's basically, it shows up at every Dutch and German hacker conference, and it enables you to do such marvelous things as receive calls from anywhere on a handset that you're carrying around with you, not unlike a cell phone, and also, as hopefully we'll do tonight,
[03:50.900 --> 03:54.400]  be able to make local calls to New York, even though we're here in Berlin.
[03:55.020 --> 04:01.420]  Now, Mike has a 347 number, 347 being an area code in Brooklyn, and I imagine that's attached to an asterisk box somewhere.
[04:01.940 --> 04:06.420]  And I don't know, maybe somebody kicked the plug out or something like that, but you've been having significant trouble reaching him.
[04:06.420 --> 04:11.760]  I have a feeling the message I was getting was coming from the other end, but we can give it a try now if you want.
[04:11.780 --> 04:12.380]  Let's give it a try.
[04:12.500 --> 04:13.080]  I want to hear what happens.
[04:13.200 --> 04:13.960]  I haven't heard the message yet.
[04:14.600 --> 04:15.060]  Let's see.
[04:15.840 --> 04:16.580]  Bernie, how are you doing?
[04:18.160 --> 04:21.900]  I'm good, and I didn't know if our listener is aware that I hear a dial tone.
[04:22.040 --> 04:24.060]  Well, this is Chase Pleasantry over this dial tone.
[04:24.120 --> 04:25.500]  You can talk over the dial tone if you want.
[04:25.520 --> 04:26.520]  We can talk over the dial tone.
[04:26.820 --> 04:33.140]  The DECT system, D-E-C-T, has been approved for use in the United States as of this past May.
[04:33.620 --> 04:34.180]  Don't say.
[04:36.420 --> 04:40.300]  We can talk over the radio frequencies, but aside from the radio frequencies, all the technology is the same.
[04:40.460 --> 04:44.920]  It's not being very heavily marketed, though, and I'm kind of curious as to why.
[04:45.180 --> 04:46.840]  Only because there's no real profit incentives.
[04:47.020 --> 04:49.580]  That could be, as everything goes in this country.
[04:49.860 --> 04:54.300]  But, yeah, I learned about this this past March at the CBIT conference in Hanover, Germany.
[04:54.800 --> 05:04.820]  And sure enough, there are a couple companies, I can't remember their names, but there are companies selling DECT systems in the U.S., which are used for both residential and business.
[05:05.340 --> 05:08.580]  We're having the usual problems with the WBAI phone system.
[05:08.620 --> 05:10.240]  Oh, this is the WBAI phone system now, okay.
[05:10.560 --> 05:13.980]  While we try to make a phone call, Bernie and I will continue to exchange pleasantries.
[05:14.160 --> 05:15.240]  You're in Wilkes-Barre?
[05:15.360 --> 05:17.800]  That's the town I always pronounce, Wilkes-Bar, right?
[05:17.800 --> 05:21.280]  People from not around here do tend to refer to it as Wilkes-Bar.
[05:22.660 --> 05:24.760]  That's how it's spelled, Wilkes-Bar.
[05:24.760 --> 05:29.840]  Well, the guy who's named after, his name was pronounced Barry, but who knows?
[05:30.680 --> 05:34.020]  Like Westbury on Long Island is easy to pronounce because of the way it's spelled.
[05:34.100 --> 05:35.060]  Is it spelled B-A-R-R-E?
[05:35.300 --> 05:36.220]  B-U-R-Y.
[05:36.440 --> 05:37.260]  Well, that's different.
[05:37.500 --> 05:38.500]  Oh, that's Westbury, yes.
[05:38.820 --> 05:39.800]  I'm familiar with that area.
[05:39.900 --> 05:40.900]  The old racetrack was there.
[05:41.200 --> 05:42.960]  I don't think we can kill any more time, Redbird.
[05:42.980 --> 05:47.000]  Well, you know, we're supposed to be getting the prompt for the secret code here, and we're not.
[05:48.440 --> 05:49.980]  Well, this is no longer a secret.
[05:50.140 --> 05:51.820]  You know, we can hear all your touchstones.
[05:51.820 --> 05:55.980]  Well, I assume you knew that when I asked you if you were going to be talking over the dial tone.
[05:56.200 --> 06:00.420]  Well, we were trying to talk over it, but there's only so much I can say before it starts getting dull and boring.
[06:00.500 --> 06:05.160]  We can talk about the pronunciation of the town names and various other little things like that.
[06:05.500 --> 06:08.840]  Well, as I was saying about the DECT phone system...
[06:08.840 --> 06:09.280]  Yes, please.
[06:10.520 --> 06:21.080]  In Europe, for several years, they've been used as both residential and as business phone systems, like on a multi-line phone system, so everybody in the office would have their own cordless extension they could carry around.
[06:21.820 --> 06:23.840]  And that will be possible here in the U.S.
[06:23.900 --> 06:26.020]  once companies start marketing such systems.
[06:26.020 --> 06:29.980]  But it's just been approved recently, and it will be available...
[06:29.980 --> 06:32.400]  It's available now, but you'd have to sort of really look for it.
[06:32.640 --> 06:35.840]  Well, how is the signal sent out for a DECT phone system?
[06:36.040 --> 06:37.400]  It's a digital...
[06:37.880 --> 06:41.380]  It's some sort of digital radio technology similar to how cell phones work.
[06:41.380 --> 06:43.000]  I'm not sure if it's a...
[06:43.000 --> 06:51.380]  I think it uses a form of TDMA, which was what AT&T Cellular used here before they switched over to GSM.
[06:51.680 --> 06:53.240]  Which is also a TDMA technology.
[06:53.440 --> 06:53.920]  It is.
[06:54.600 --> 06:55.440]  What's interesting...
[06:55.440 --> 06:59.260]  I mean, not interesting, but important to note is that the DECT frequency...
[07:00.080 --> 07:10.820]  The frequencies that the DECT phone use, and I don't recall the specific ones off the top of my head, but you're not able to use those phones legally in the United States because those frequencies aren't allocated for consumer use.
[07:11.140 --> 07:16.580]  Right, but in this country, DECT has been approved from a signal standpoint on a different band of frequencies.
[07:16.580 --> 07:22.800]  So they are for sale on FCC-allocated frequencies now in the U.S.
[07:23.200 --> 07:26.840]  Redbird, that's a very good point you just made, but if you're talking, that means you're not dialing.
[07:26.960 --> 07:29.600]  Well, I think we can assume that we're not going to be able to reach my...
[07:29.600 --> 07:34.560]  I tried numerous times before the show started when I was getting the secret prompt, and unfortunately...
[07:34.560 --> 07:36.840]  I want to hear the error message you said that you were getting.
[07:36.840 --> 07:38.900]  Would you like me to try...
[07:38.900 --> 07:40.560]  You know, I can try...
[07:40.560 --> 07:45.140]  Well, it sounds like you're not getting past the BAI phone barricade that prompts you for the secret.
[07:45.260 --> 07:46.800]  You shouldn't be asked for a secret code.
[07:46.860 --> 07:47.960]  You're dialing a local number, though.
[07:48.960 --> 07:50.500]  Well, I'm not getting asked for anything.
[07:51.400 --> 07:53.120]  Well, you shouldn't be if you're calling Brooklyn.
[07:53.440 --> 07:53.660]  Okay.
[07:54.120 --> 07:55.400]  Would you like me to dial the number again?
[07:55.680 --> 07:56.420]  Let's dial the number.
[07:56.500 --> 07:57.080]  Let's see what happens.
[07:57.080 --> 07:57.320]  All right.
[07:58.000 --> 07:59.880]  Might as well throw caution to the wind here.
[08:05.610 --> 08:07.870]  That number went over the air more than enough times.
[08:09.450 --> 08:09.770]  Hey.
[08:10.190 --> 08:10.870]  Well, now, okay.
[08:10.930 --> 08:11.930]  Put it in, then, I guess.
[08:12.070 --> 08:13.230]  But I'll put that in over the air.
[08:14.330 --> 08:17.550]  The station you requested is not available at the moment.
[08:17.730 --> 08:20.450]  Der gewünschte Teilnehmer ist zurzeit nicht erreichbar.
[08:20.610 --> 08:23.510]  The station you requested is not available at the moment.
[08:23.810 --> 08:26.470]  Der gewünschte Teilnehmer ist zurzeit nicht erreichbar.
[08:26.790 --> 08:28.230]  Dein Telefon ist kaputt.
[08:28.710 --> 08:28.850]  Okay.
[08:30.890 --> 08:32.170]  Well, interesting.
[08:33.670 --> 08:38.870]  You know, the funny thing is, the tone of the ring is exactly the same as the tone for the BAI secret code.
[08:41.230 --> 08:42.230]  Well, okay.
[08:42.390 --> 08:45.710]  That's why I thought I was prompting you for the secret code just now, but that was actually a ring.
[08:45.810 --> 08:46.290]  Oh, it was.
[08:46.330 --> 08:46.930]  But it was an error message.
[08:47.070 --> 08:47.430]  Right, right.
[08:47.750 --> 08:47.990]  Yeah.
[08:48.490 --> 08:52.810]  Okay, well, we should keep trying every few minutes, because I know Mike is down there at the conference center.
[08:53.410 --> 08:55.710]  He has, like, several hundred people to interview.
[08:56.270 --> 09:00.470]  Hopefully, we can go through that and not be disappointed.
[09:00.470 --> 09:01.530]  But, you know, it happens.
[09:01.830 --> 09:06.770]  I'm here in a comfortable hotel room, though, on the landline, so I know the connection will stay put.
[09:07.030 --> 09:09.490]  Now, have they opened the conference center for anyone to...
[09:09.490 --> 09:11.390]  Well, the conference is open for registration.
[09:11.630 --> 09:21.930]  Basically, there was a very long line going to the back of the hall earlier today, and people are already registering for tomorrow to be, I guess, what's going to be even a bigger rush tomorrow.
[09:21.930 --> 09:24.770]  And it's in the same place it's always been, in Alexanderplatz?
[09:25.070 --> 09:26.270]  Yes, Alexanderplatz.
[09:26.490 --> 09:32.790]  If people are thinking of coming, if you're in Europe already, which would be a good idea to already be here, head on down, Alexanderplatz.
[09:33.090 --> 09:38.990]  It's the domed building in the square, next to the building that used to be the Blinking Lights building.
[09:40.110 --> 09:42.290]  And look for the rocket ship.
[09:42.590 --> 09:43.470]  Oh, they've got the rocket ship.
[09:44.670 --> 09:45.870]  They always have the rocket ship.
[09:45.990 --> 09:48.250]  That's a good telltale sign that you're at the CCC.
[09:48.250 --> 09:54.850]  And this year, since I'm staying for New Year's in Berlin, I'm determined to see what they do with the rocket ship after the conference.
[09:55.010 --> 09:57.270]  I want to see how they actually get rid of that thing.
[09:57.430 --> 09:58.230]  They fly it away.
[09:58.650 --> 10:05.590]  Well, if that's true, then you're going to be seeing some video footage of that, because I have my camera with me, and I won't be leaving the spot until it disappears.
[10:05.830 --> 10:08.210]  You might even be aboard the part of gold when it departs.
[10:08.450 --> 10:09.610]  Well, that would be nice.
[10:09.610 --> 10:11.950]  I'm perfectly okay flying away in a spaceship.
[10:13.350 --> 10:15.250]  Now, do you have any plans for New Year's?
[10:15.290 --> 10:21.930]  Because I know most of the time, when you've been there and when I've been there, we've gone to Amsterdam afterwards, and I think this time you're planning on staying in Berlin.
[10:22.430 --> 10:24.510]  Yeah, well, I wanted to try something different this year.
[10:24.670 --> 10:27.210]  I've been to Amsterdam so many times for New Year's, and it is a blast.
[10:27.410 --> 10:32.150]  If anyone ever gets the chance to do that, they definitely should take part in that.
[10:33.450 --> 10:37.270]  But this year, yeah, I wanted to try something a little bit different.
[10:37.410 --> 10:41.390]  Berlin, I think, is going to be crazy as well, but in a totally different flavor.
[10:42.690 --> 10:47.510]  Now, do you have with you a list of talks that are of interest at the conference?
[10:47.710 --> 10:55.190]  I do not, but however, Mike and I did talk to some very interesting people beforehand who were preparing a talk tomorrow morning at 10.
[10:55.190 --> 11:02.470]  Again, these guys have set up a whole mechanical telex display.
[11:02.730 --> 11:05.670]  It's basically powered by steam.
[11:06.870 --> 11:09.490]  A steam engine, I believe, is powering this thing.
[11:09.670 --> 11:15.550]  That wasn't working when we actually looked at the thing, but the telex machine was working fine.
[11:15.550 --> 11:17.610]  They were powering that with electricity temporarily.
[11:18.230 --> 11:23.010]  And it's just amazing, the interesting facts about telex.
[11:23.010 --> 11:27.970]  Apparently, telex is going to be cut off by Deutsche Telephone on January 1st, 2008.
[11:28.370 --> 11:31.010]  And that will be the end of the telex network here in this country.
[11:32.110 --> 11:34.830]  We have this, it looks like an old-fashioned typewriter.
[11:35.370 --> 11:40.030]  And basically, you can type a message, and they had a computer hooked up to the other end of it.
[11:40.070 --> 11:41.530]  You could see the message show up on the computer.
[11:41.750 --> 11:46.690]  The computer could type a message, and the telex machine or typewriter would simply type it out.
[11:46.690 --> 11:51.970]  And it's funny, because in one direction, the print is in black, and in the other direction, the print is in red.
[11:53.270 --> 11:55.030]  And it moves incredibly slowly.
[11:55.570 --> 11:56.770]  It's incredibly noisy.
[11:57.330 --> 11:58.930]  But it is just so cool.
[11:59.070 --> 12:01.730]  I'm sure, Bernie, you know a lot about this whole telex network, don't you?
[12:03.170 --> 12:03.510]  Somewhat.
[12:03.570 --> 12:06.570]  And I used to repair teletype machines in a former life.
[12:06.570 --> 12:11.390]  So that would be very interesting to see, although I kind of doubt the entire thing is actually...
[12:11.390 --> 12:17.950]  Is the entire machine actually powered by steam, or is that just sort of a euphemism for all things mechanical and cool-looking?
[12:18.370 --> 12:20.150]  You know, actually, I'm not exactly sure.
[12:20.770 --> 12:22.590]  I know it was powered, but I think it was steam.
[12:22.690 --> 12:23.250]  I think it was steam.
[12:23.310 --> 12:24.550]  I wasn't paying much attention to that.
[12:24.950 --> 12:34.150]  They have what looks like a bicycle chain on the other end of the display, and they're probably going to be moving that and powering the whole telex operation.
[12:34.150 --> 12:38.630]  I just think the thing is cool enough as a telex machine without introducing that part of it.
[12:38.730 --> 12:39.570]  It's completely mechanical.
[12:39.570 --> 12:44.530]  There's no tubes or any parts like that involved in this thing.
[12:45.390 --> 12:47.870]  There's a whole genre of...
[12:47.870 --> 13:09.990]  or even a subculture, you could call it, called steampunk, which is people who are really interested in building and using and showing off machines that look like they're from the industrial era, where things were mechanical and powered by steam and mechanical things.
[13:10.310 --> 13:21.870]  And a lot of them are really not truly steam-powered, but they're still really interesting to see how people build these intricate devices to accomplish modern ends using mechanical means.
[13:22.150 --> 13:26.090]  Well, I should point out that the telex machine was not designed to be powered in that manner.
[13:26.090 --> 13:29.790]  They're simply doing it to make it even more cool-looking.
[13:30.010 --> 13:36.490]  I think they get away with it just having a telex machine there, printing out messages at very slow rates.
[13:37.250 --> 13:37.890]  I don't know.
[13:37.950 --> 13:51.790]  Something about it, something about the smell of the type and just the machine itself getting heated up, that somehow you don't get in today's computer world, everything is instantaneous, fast, and silent.
[13:51.790 --> 14:05.330]  It reminds me of the days when we used to have old-fashioned UPI machines at the radio stations that I worked at that really went very, very slowly, and you had to be very patient to watch for a new story to come over.
[14:06.350 --> 14:10.870]  This was actually the first data network that the world had.
[14:11.090 --> 14:13.070]  It predated the Internet by several decades.
[14:13.350 --> 14:17.270]  These things were around in the 1940s, maybe even earlier than that.
[14:17.270 --> 14:19.990]  And I don't know who still has telex machines.
[14:20.170 --> 14:22.710]  There are people that still have telex machines or businesses.
[14:23.050 --> 14:26.710]  And apparently they are so much more reliable than fax machines.
[14:26.710 --> 14:28.270]  They are used as legal documents.
[14:28.270 --> 14:33.930]  If you send something to somebody, you can prove that they received it, and that is admissible in court.
[14:33.930 --> 14:35.770]  A fax machine, you could never do that.
[14:36.010 --> 14:40.690]  And typically what people used on the telex network were actually teletype machines.
[14:41.570 --> 14:49.050]  In the latter years, there were 7-bit teletype machines, like the teletype ASR-33 and of that ilk.
[14:49.210 --> 15:00.910]  The earlier machines you referred to as UPI machines that were probably owned and operated by United Press International were actually teletype machines also, but probably model 15 teletype machines, which were received only.
[15:01.270 --> 15:06.770]  And the data came through it about 50 baud or so, 50 bits per second.
[15:06.770 --> 15:10.770]  And very slow, but very impressive watching the stories come out letter by letter.
[15:11.050 --> 15:12.830]  I think the ones here are faster.
[15:12.930 --> 15:15.490]  They were bragging that they could do 60.
[15:16.610 --> 15:17.410]  That's pretty good.
[15:17.830 --> 15:18.770]  Yeah, I was impressed.
[15:18.770 --> 15:19.490]  Here's the schedule.
[15:19.790 --> 15:21.670]  I'm looking at the schedule for CCC.
[15:21.930 --> 15:28.570]  In fact, the first, after the opening event, the Steam Power Telegraphy Conference, the Steam Power Telegraphy presentation is first.
[15:28.930 --> 15:30.430]  You thought I was making it up, didn't you?
[15:30.550 --> 15:32.290]  I wasn't making it up, but it was real.
[15:32.590 --> 15:38.130]  Well, I didn't know it was going to actually be a panel discussion or whether it was just going to be there as a demonstration.
[15:38.790 --> 15:42.270]  Should I read some of the other topics that will be discussed on day one?
[15:42.610 --> 15:43.130]  Go ahead.
[15:43.250 --> 15:48.170]  I'm going to unlock my hotel room door, because Mike has announced that he's on his way over here, since we can't get the phone to work.
[15:48.490 --> 15:51.570]  Here's some more topics going on on the first day.
[15:52.230 --> 16:00.710]  The role of brilliant deviance in the liberalization of society, or how people like us make people like them accept us.
[16:01.830 --> 16:09.690]  There's another one called Freifunkery, which may be a mispronunciation in English, and a do-it-yourself society against the state.
[16:10.730 --> 16:13.970]  Here's one called Paparazzi, a free autopilot.
[16:14.230 --> 16:16.610]  Build your own unmanned aerial vehicle.
[16:17.210 --> 16:17.990]  Bad idea.
[16:20.350 --> 16:21.790]  Joe's speaking as a pilot.
[16:22.050 --> 16:29.250]  He's seeing all these hobbyists built on unmanned aerial vehicles flying around in his way as he's piloting around.
[16:29.890 --> 16:44.550]  Here's one called Simulating the Universe on Supercomputers, the Evolution of Cosmic Structure, a presentation on TOR, the Onion Router technology, something called Building a Hackerspace, a hackerspace design pattern catalog.
[16:45.710 --> 16:47.810]  It was a bad idea anyway.
[16:48.230 --> 16:54.050]  The demise of electronic voting in the Netherlands, presented by Ropp, our friend.
[16:54.290 --> 16:54.990]  Could have guessed that.
[16:55.130 --> 16:56.250]  Very interesting presentation.
[16:57.050 --> 16:58.550]  Anonymity for 2015.
[16:59.090 --> 17:00.750]  Why not just use TOR?
[17:01.610 --> 17:07.290]  Here's one called 10GE Monitoring Live, how to find that special one out of millions.
[17:09.510 --> 17:12.350]  AES, the advanced encryption standard.
[17:12.350 --> 17:14.730]  AES, side-channel attacks for the masses.
[17:15.310 --> 17:19.490]  Here's one called Desperate House Hackers, how to hack the FAN system.
[17:19.750 --> 17:22.930]  I don't know what the FAN system is, but imagine if you attend, you'll know.
[17:23.370 --> 17:26.030]  What is terrorism, and who is terrorizing whom?
[17:26.330 --> 17:27.330]  Very good question.
[17:28.830 --> 17:31.090]  Make cool things with microcontrollers.
[17:32.090 --> 17:35.430]  Designing Noir, the seedy underbelly of electronic engineering.
[17:36.450 --> 17:37.650]  Crouching PowerPoint...
[17:37.650 --> 17:44.030]  Sorry, Crouching PowerPoint Hidden Trojan, an analysis of targeted attacks from 2005 to 2007.
[17:45.150 --> 17:46.450]  Cybercrime 2.0.
[17:47.110 --> 17:50.430]  Programming DNA, a two-bit language for engineering biology.
[17:51.330 --> 17:52.530]  Digital sustainability.
[17:53.050 --> 17:54.310]  Scarcity is entering the net.
[17:54.570 --> 17:56.150]  A collection of random things.
[17:56.230 --> 17:57.430]  Look what I found under the carpet.
[17:58.590 --> 18:00.950]  IPv6, everywhere they don't want it.
[18:01.390 --> 18:04.950]  Global connectivity, even in the places that you are not supposed to have it.
[18:05.630 --> 18:11.450]  VX, the virus underground, and I can count every star in the heavens above, but I have no heart.
[18:11.570 --> 18:12.710]  I can't fall in love.
[18:13.370 --> 18:13.890]  But if...
[18:13.890 --> 18:16.330]  The image of computers in popular music.
[18:16.550 --> 18:18.010]  That's just day number one.
[18:18.370 --> 18:19.270]  There's three days.
[18:19.310 --> 18:21.930]  There's three days of presentations like that.
[18:22.030 --> 18:22.950]  And it's really fascinating.
[18:23.150 --> 18:23.890]  I wish I could be there.
[18:23.990 --> 18:25.070]  I've been there other years.
[18:25.270 --> 18:29.330]  And it's truly a breathtaking presentation of interesting topics.
[18:29.450 --> 18:31.350]  Most of it's in English, despite it being in Germany.
[18:31.650 --> 18:35.450]  And it's just a whole lot of cool people to hang out with and exchange ideas with.
[18:35.590 --> 18:47.830]  Now, one interesting aspect of these conferences that I always appreciate is the fact that even though a lot of the stuff may seem repetitive in the sense that we've seen presentations along the same lines in previous years, there's always something new.
[18:47.930 --> 18:50.870]  In all the presentations, there's always a new aspect.
[18:50.870 --> 18:55.290]  There's always something new that's been discovered about some particular technology that's presented.
[18:55.510 --> 18:56.870]  And it really never gets old.
[18:57.630 --> 19:01.150]  There's always some new facet that's been discovered and talked about.
[19:01.150 --> 19:07.430]  And I'm sure when you get back, you're going to have a whole lot to tell us about, about some of the presentations that we're given.
[19:07.710 --> 19:08.790]  Well, I sure hope so.
[19:08.910 --> 19:19.750]  But I also want to point out to those people currently listening who are kicking themselves or otherwise doing self-mutilation because they're not here, and they really want to be, and they want to see those topics discussed.
[19:20.070 --> 19:24.710]  You know, this is exactly the kind of thing that we're looking for for the HOPE Conference coming up in July.
[19:24.710 --> 19:36.310]  And that's... we're opening it up starting in January for people that want to partake, do lectures and demonstrations on a lot of those topics.
[19:37.050 --> 19:44.790]  HOPE Conference taking place July 18th through 20th, 2008, at the Hotel Pennsylvania, which will still be standing in New York City.
[19:45.210 --> 19:49.390]  And more details will be announced on our website, hope.net.
[19:49.390 --> 19:58.830]  And if you want to get a head start and send us some interesting information or ask some questions, you can email us, hope, at 2600.com, H-O-P-E.
[19:59.710 --> 20:02.470]  But you'll see more about that coming up in the next month.
[20:02.570 --> 20:11.010]  But this is a real inspiration for us, just seeing all the people coming from around the world, getting together here, discussing all these things, putting together all these interesting projects.
[20:11.450 --> 20:15.810]  It's been this way every year, pretty much, since 1984 when these things started.
[20:15.810 --> 20:22.070]  This is the longest-running hacker conference in the world, and it's always a lot of fun to take part in this.
[20:22.130 --> 20:23.650]  Redbird, you were at one of them, weren't you?
[20:23.790 --> 20:28.390]  I was at two of them, at two of the CCC Congresses and a couple of the other special events during the summer.
[20:29.450 --> 20:35.730]  But, yeah, along those same lines, we should really encourage the international community, because we do reach them, to come over to the U.S.
[20:35.750 --> 20:40.470]  and New York and come visit and give some presentations and visit the HOPE Conference.
[20:40.470 --> 20:49.290]  And I know a lot of the fingerprinting policies that are in effect now with, you know, the United States and visiting here kind of deter people from going.
[20:49.430 --> 20:55.130]  But, you know, I'm not going to try to argue for that, but, you know...
[20:55.130 --> 20:56.890]  Let's just make a couple of things clear.
[20:56.910 --> 20:58.890]  Yes, that is required.
[20:59.170 --> 21:02.130]  It's only a matter of time before it's required in other countries as well, though.
[21:02.330 --> 21:04.870]  That should not be the only reason that you decide not to come.
[21:04.870 --> 21:09.630]  People are not sent to Guantanamo Bay if they get questioned harshly or something at the border.
[21:09.670 --> 21:10.630]  It doesn't work that way.
[21:11.110 --> 21:16.030]  We spend a lot of time complaining about policies, but we do want to be realistic about them as well.
[21:16.870 --> 21:28.870]  Coming to the country to take part in the conference is something that you definitely should do, unless you really don't like the place or if you have outstanding warrants or something against you in the States.
[21:29.650 --> 21:35.490]  But otherwise, I think it would definitely be something you would remember for the rest of your life that would be a positive experience.
[21:35.630 --> 21:40.570]  That's what I hear from all the people who have come to the six previous conferences that we've held since 1994.
[21:41.330 --> 21:41.690]  Right.
[21:41.770 --> 21:52.670]  And I think it's important to note that these policies are going to kind of propagate around the world, and eventually we're going to have to be doing the same thing with the fingerprinting to visit Germany and Holland and all these other countries where these great conferences are being held.
[21:52.770 --> 21:57.070]  And, you know, I'm sure that's not going to deter any of us from going, because it really is a worthwhile experience.
[21:57.350 --> 22:03.050]  And it may be too late for you to get to the CCC Congress, but it sure isn't to plan on the trip to Hope.
[22:03.450 --> 22:13.350]  And I just wanted to mention the URL that listeners can see all the topics that are going to be spoken about at the CCC Congress this year.
[22:13.410 --> 22:19.590]  And I believe, Emmanuel, will these programs be streamed over the Internet if they haven't been passed?
[22:19.830 --> 22:21.150]  I'm pretty sure they will be.
[22:21.450 --> 22:24.750]  They have been, as you say, so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be.
[22:24.750 --> 22:32.910]  Well, they have always been made available shortly after the Congress for downloading, but they may be available in real time.
[22:32.910 --> 22:49.010]  In any case, people can visit ccc.de, DE being the top-level domain for Germany, if you want to get more information about the CCC Congress this year, and listen while it's happening or after it's happening later this week.
[22:49.810 --> 22:50.950]  I'm going to put Mike on.
[22:51.030 --> 22:55.270]  He just made it to the hotel after our failed attempts to reach him.
[22:55.850 --> 23:01.430]  So I'm going to give you his impressions of the conference, and I'm just letting him know, I guess, I've already talked about the cool telex machine.
[23:03.110 --> 23:06.910]  That does limit my impressions for what to talk about.
[23:07.810 --> 23:11.550]  I want to offer the apologies of the folks.
[23:11.710 --> 23:38.310]  They were working very hard on getting a phone over there, and it turns out they were able to successfully make a phone number in Brooklyn, answer when you called it, and able to make that phone call come all the way over here to Berlin, but then getting it from their computer in Berlin to my hand in Berlin turned to be rife with difficulty.
[23:38.530 --> 23:41.310]  Well, I was successful in one attempt, and then...
[23:41.310 --> 23:41.730]  Yeah.
[23:42.010 --> 23:42.430]  Oh, well.
[23:42.630 --> 23:47.970]  Apparently, this phone could only receive one call before being reset or something.
[23:49.070 --> 23:52.070]  It was a problem with the physical handset.
[23:53.130 --> 23:56.490]  So you were over at the actual conference center while doing this.
[23:56.490 --> 23:58.110]  And what's the atmosphere like over there?
[23:58.210 --> 23:59.590]  How much stuff is set up?
[23:59.650 --> 24:00.530]  How much are you able to see?
[24:01.670 --> 24:03.090]  Well, it's still being set up.
[24:03.190 --> 24:04.990]  The conference doesn't start until tomorrow.
[24:05.550 --> 24:14.250]  They've already had a long line of people just to register, and apparently even more are expected, an even longer line tomorrow.
[24:16.670 --> 24:19.530]  So this thing will certainly not suffer for attendees.
[24:21.270 --> 24:24.430]  Emmanuel told me I'm not allowed to talk about the telex again, but...
[24:24.430 --> 24:25.110]  Talk about it.
[24:25.330 --> 24:25.510]  Go ahead.
[24:27.230 --> 24:30.590]  But that was one of the cool things that's already been set up.
[24:31.050 --> 24:40.750]  There were the Blink and Light folks were there, and of course there's already people on the network just working on their various projects.
[24:42.150 --> 24:45.450]  So they are already starting.
[24:45.750 --> 24:49.790]  More is being set up and will be set up.
[24:49.790 --> 25:05.550]  I ran into our friend, Rob, while I was over there, and he is going to give a talk about his continued successes in getting electronic voting out of Holland and maybe some lessons for the rest of the world.
[25:05.690 --> 25:09.910]  So that's something we've talked about on this show and something I'm looking forward to seeing.
[25:09.910 --> 25:11.530]  A lot of good talks this year, actually.
[25:13.890 --> 25:18.330]  And, you know, it hasn't even started yet, and I'm certainly excited to see what will happen.
[25:18.830 --> 25:29.490]  And the network over there, as you mentioned, is one of the things we always kind of dwell on over here because it's always incredibly impressive to see how much bandwidth they're actually able to get in that location there.
[25:29.490 --> 25:34.650]  And I remember when I was there, they had posted signs all over the place that said, please use more bandwidth.
[25:34.750 --> 25:39.210]  And I think they were using some ridiculously small fraction of the bandwidth that they had available.
[25:39.450 --> 25:42.870]  Is there any word on how much is available now?
[25:43.530 --> 25:45.490]  Well, there's no such signs yet.
[25:46.410 --> 25:51.190]  They are, as with the rest of the conference, still working on getting that set up.
[25:51.190 --> 25:54.870]  So I understand to work in some areas and not in others.
[25:55.570 --> 25:58.370]  But they're madly replacing the failing components.
[25:58.370 --> 26:04.930]  And I guess tomorrow we will arrive to a lot of bandwidth or something.
[26:05.250 --> 26:17.030]  Wasn't there a talk last year at the CCC Congress about the bandwidth to the Congress being greater than that of the entire continent of Africa?
[26:17.530 --> 26:18.530]  Was that the case?
[26:18.550 --> 26:20.110]  Yeah, I don't... I wasn't...
[26:20.110 --> 26:24.070]  This is my first time to come to the Congress, so I obviously wasn't there for that.
[26:24.350 --> 26:30.090]  But my hope is that Africa has, in the interim, got some more bandwidth so that that feed is no harder to pull off.
[26:30.310 --> 26:31.970]  But, yeah.
[26:33.510 --> 26:35.430]  Africa needs more bandwidth, no question.
[26:35.850 --> 26:36.050]  Yeah.
[26:37.110 --> 26:45.030]  It would be nice if maybe the whole continent of Africa even had more bandwidth than Berlin, which is a lovely place, but a lot smaller than Africa.
[26:45.510 --> 26:45.990]  So...
[26:45.990 --> 26:49.570]  Well, I'm sure that that situation will be changing, hopefully soon.
[26:49.570 --> 26:50.430]  But we'll see.
[26:50.610 --> 26:53.870]  Is there anything else you can tell us about what's going on in the meantime?
[26:54.130 --> 26:57.310]  I know the conference still hasn't started yet, but...
[26:59.190 --> 27:00.950]  Not a whole lot I can talk about.
[27:01.170 --> 27:03.330]  I just flew here today.
[27:04.310 --> 27:11.370]  I flew through London, which is a very strange place, even without entering the city.
[27:11.970 --> 27:16.970]  They have cameras everywhere, and they have cameras pointing at you.
[27:17.130 --> 27:20.530]  And then right below the camera is a screen, so you know what the camera is seeing.
[27:20.950 --> 27:23.590]  And then they're inspecting and re-inspecting.
[27:23.690 --> 27:33.350]  There's a bus from one terminal to another with this, like, really cheery video about how great it is that you can only take 100 milliliters in each container of liquid.
[27:33.950 --> 27:38.950]  It's really, really weird, and that occupied a good part of my day.
[27:39.190 --> 27:44.290]  But I'm looking forward to things that are weird in good ways for the coming days.
[27:46.050 --> 27:46.550]  All right.
[27:46.610 --> 27:48.130]  Well, that sounds interesting.
[27:48.130 --> 27:52.350]  I'm not going to say that the surveillance condition there is great, but...
[27:53.250 --> 27:56.130]  It's something that we can certainly look forward to in our cities.
[27:57.250 --> 27:57.670]  Yeah.
[27:57.850 --> 27:59.750]  They're really leading the way in that.
[27:59.750 --> 28:03.490]  So, in a sense, it was nice to see a little bit of our future.
[28:03.830 --> 28:06.250]  But I wish...
[28:06.250 --> 28:07.430]  Hopefully we don't see it too soon.
[28:08.330 --> 28:11.830]  I'm going to pass it back to Emmanuel now, who I'm sure will have more to say.
[28:11.990 --> 28:12.250]  All right.
[28:13.130 --> 28:18.990]  Well, actually, I'm going to pass the phone right back to Mike after I ask him this question, because this is something I think is important to discuss.
[28:19.930 --> 28:23.730]  Obviously, telecommunications are an important part of any trip to a faraway place.
[28:24.170 --> 28:34.730]  And as we discussed when I went over to Malaysia and to Singapore earlier this year, finding a good deal on your own cell phone really makes all the difference in the world.
[28:34.950 --> 28:41.290]  And I think Mike might have found something here that actually could make communications a whole lot easier.
[28:41.430 --> 28:45.230]  Unfortunately, today, December 26th, is also a holiday.
[28:45.550 --> 28:46.370]  Well, it's not unfortunate.
[28:46.550 --> 28:46.970]  It's a holiday.
[28:47.130 --> 28:55.190]  I'm just saying it's unfortunate for us, because we couldn't get into the store to purchase the right card to pursue this deal.
[28:55.190 --> 29:01.530]  But December 26th is a holiday in many parts of Europe as well, so a lot of the stores are closed.
[29:01.690 --> 29:06.410]  But I'm going to hand the phone to Mike, and he's going to hopefully explain this particular phone deal.
[29:07.690 --> 29:08.170]  Yeah.
[29:08.810 --> 29:14.010]  As Emmanuel said, today is a holiday in Germany and probably other places.
[29:14.190 --> 29:17.910]  So we haven't been able to test it, but we did find out about this company.
[29:17.910 --> 29:27.390]  And I guess I'll tell our listeners the name is Ortel, and they have business here in Germany as well as in the Netherlands and in Belgium.
[29:27.730 --> 29:40.150]  And they seem to offer, they claim to offer, and it seems silly that they would offer it and not really exist, a SIM that you can put in your phone if you have the right kind of phone.
[29:41.410 --> 29:51.010]  And then you'll be able to just dial the United States for a very low price, not much more than you would pay from just a regular landline phone.
[29:51.150 --> 29:59.810]  In fact, the rate is half of what it costs just to use it to call a mobile phone right next to you in the same country.
[30:01.050 --> 30:05.850]  And that rate is, you know, the fairly standard mobile rate around here.
[30:06.270 --> 30:09.970]  So we're trying to figure out if it's for real, what the catch is.
[30:10.170 --> 30:17.770]  But assuming it is for real and the catches are reasonable, it seems like an interesting way to be traveling and keep in touch.
[30:17.990 --> 30:37.610]  Now, we've talked about legislation in the past in the EU to sort of bring down the prices of calling across the countries because we've had the same issues when we've traveled from country to country and getting prepaid SIMs really costs a lot, especially when you're only in one country for a couple of days and you're only able to call mobile phones or landline phones in that country for
[30:37.610 --> 30:38.350]  reasonable rates.
[30:38.550 --> 30:41.430]  Have you heard anything about the new legislation over there?
[30:41.490 --> 30:42.970]  And is that improving the situation at all?
[30:43.290 --> 30:46.490]  Well, it has gone into effect, I believe.
[30:46.730 --> 30:56.270]  And I haven't had a chance to talk with any of the Europeans here from other European countries to see how much they're paying well in Germany.
[30:58.390 --> 31:03.010]  But, you know, even the discount rates are still kind of more than I'd want to pay.
[31:03.290 --> 31:07.850]  So hopefully those barriers will continue to be broken down.
[31:09.490 --> 31:09.990]  All right.
[31:10.090 --> 31:17.530]  Well, I hope you come back to us with good news because it would be nice to know that that's an option over there when traveling.
[31:17.890 --> 31:18.290]  Yeah.
[31:18.410 --> 31:24.010]  Well, I will see you folks in the studio next week and I'll be glad to tell you all about it either way.
[31:24.210 --> 31:24.530]  All right.
[31:27.690 --> 31:28.470]  I'm back now.
[31:28.770 --> 31:31.930]  Actually, if this does work out, I'm going to be here next week as well.
[31:31.930 --> 31:35.050]  So you might very well hear me from my cell phone using that system.
[31:35.850 --> 31:39.590]  Well, you sound very good on the landline and there isn't much of a delay, so...
[31:39.590 --> 31:40.170]  That's good.
[31:40.270 --> 31:41.130]  Well, we lucked out this time.
[31:41.250 --> 31:43.670]  We're using a different system to get through to the landline in Germany.
[31:44.630 --> 31:49.530]  You're making an outgoing call to a toll-free number and that's costing mere pennies as well.
[31:49.690 --> 31:53.390]  So we've arrived at the state where phone calls are cheap worldwide.
[31:55.510 --> 31:56.030]  Yes.
[31:56.970 --> 32:00.350]  So, okay, enough about us, enough about traveling around the world.
[32:00.570 --> 32:11.130]  All sorts of other things have been going on, including this story about the FBI once again preparing a vast database of biometrics or wanting to do this.
[32:11.270 --> 32:27.210]  Apparently, it's a billion-dollar project to include images of irises and faces, and they want to build the world's largest computer database of people's physical characteristics, and that would give the government unprecedented abilities to identify individuals in the United States and abroad.
[32:28.010 --> 32:36.350]  Now, digital images of faces, fingerprints, and palm patterns are already flowing into FBI systems in a climate-controlled, secure basement in Clarksburg, West Virginia.
[32:36.950 --> 32:44.850]  Next month, the FBI intends to award a 10-year contract that would significantly expand the amount and kinds of biometric information it receives.
[32:45.030 --> 32:57.310]  And in the coming years, law enforcement authorities around the world will be able to rely on iris patterns, face-shaped data, scars, and perhaps even the unique ways people walk and talk to solve crimes and identify criminals and terrorists.
[32:57.630 --> 33:07.670]  And the FBI will also retain, upon request by employers, the fingerprints of employees who have undergone criminal background checks so the employers can be notified if employees have brushes with the law.
[33:08.270 --> 33:09.110]  It's incredible.
[33:09.350 --> 33:11.810]  This comes from the Washington Post a few days ago.
[33:12.450 --> 33:16.830]  This reads like some kind of science fiction nightmare scenario, but what do you guys think?
[33:16.850 --> 33:19.430]  Do you think this is the reality that we're facing now?
[33:19.590 --> 33:27.250]  Well, I think the end of the article is actually interesting because they do quote a couple of privacy advocates, and there are a couple of paragraphs that explain it pretty well.
[33:27.250 --> 33:37.230]  In 2004, the Electronic Privacy Information Center objected to the FBI's exemption of the National Crime Information Center database from the Privacy Act requirement that records be accurate.
[33:37.310 --> 33:45.050]  The group noted that the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2001 found that information in the system was not fully reliable and that files may be incomplete or inaccurate.
[33:45.390 --> 33:57.230]  FBI officials justified that the exemption, by claiming that in law enforcement data collection, it is impossible to determine in advance what information is accurate, relevant, timely, and complete.
[33:57.930 --> 34:01.310]  Privacy advocates worry about the ability of people to correct false information.
[34:01.550 --> 34:07.050]  Unlike, say, a credit card number, biometric data is forever, said Paul Safo, a Silicon Valley technical forecaster.
[34:07.330 --> 34:14.410]  He said he feared that the FBI, whose computer technology record had been marred by expensive failures, could not guarantee the data security.
[34:14.630 --> 34:18.550]  If someone steals and spoofs your iris image, you can't just get a new eyeball, Safo said.
[34:18.670 --> 34:34.250]  And this is important because at many of these conferences that we've gone to in the HOPE conferences and what the hack in the CCC Congress is, it's been demonstrated numerous times how iris images, fingerprints, and a bunch of other sources of biometric data can be spoofed very,
[34:34.370 --> 34:40.290]  very easily using chemicals available over the counter, contact lenses, stuff like that.
[34:40.350 --> 34:42.350]  And it's really trivial to do this sort of thing.
[34:42.490 --> 34:49.170]  And I think that people have this false impression that biometric data is sort of an end-all to identity theft.
[34:49.170 --> 34:51.690]  And it's really not because this stuff really can be spoofed.
[34:52.870 --> 35:10.250]  Well, it just scares me to hear this kind of thing being touted as the solution to any kind of investigation, any kind of criminal activity, trying to solve all that simply by knowing who everybody is, where everybody is at all times.
[35:11.110 --> 35:15.450]  And it certainly doesn't play out well in the rest of the world to hear the FBI is doing this.
[35:15.450 --> 35:25.890]  Now, I would make reference to their location in West Virginia, a city called Clarksburg.
[35:26.050 --> 35:27.230]  Bernie, do you know anything about that place?
[35:27.590 --> 35:31.710]  I've never been to Clarksburg, although I'm sure some of the information is probably down there.
[35:31.870 --> 35:33.450]  I think we all have a presence there.
[35:35.030 --> 35:47.510]  But, no, it might be worth the trip, although I'm sure you can't really get a guided tour any more than you could of the NSA or the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network or the CIA in Langley.
[35:48.030 --> 35:51.430]  I'm sure it's well-fortified, especially in these post-9-11 days.
[35:51.790 --> 35:54.750]  So I'm sure what goes on in there is kept rather secret.
[35:56.150 --> 35:56.590]  Absolutely.
[35:56.790 --> 36:19.770]  And there's no accountability either, apparently, because since the FBI's National Crime Information Center, or NCIC, is exempt from the Privacy Act, that means that individuals cannot, as Redbird was pointing out, cannot petition or contest the accuracy of what's in your own file,
[36:20.550 --> 36:36.990]  which is, I think, ludicrous and Orwellian in that, you know, false information about you can be kept and shared between government agencies, and you have no way of knowing what that information is or if it's correct or even fixing it if you find out it is correct.
[36:37.030 --> 36:37.810]  So it's very spooky.
[36:38.010 --> 36:46.970]  I think the best case to present against this sort of thing is the fact that the technology itself is flawed and the fact that the policy is flawed will kind of fall behind that.
[36:47.050 --> 36:56.850]  And I think that's probably the best strategy in terms of electronic voting and all these other things that our community knows to be poorly implemented.
[36:57.410 --> 37:04.750]  And perhaps the technology does exist to make it a good system, but at this point, there's no current implementation that demonstrates that.
[37:04.930 --> 37:07.130]  So I think Rob's going to find that with the electronic voting.
[37:07.250 --> 37:11.610]  He's probably already found that with the electronic voting is to show that the technology is flawed.
[37:11.630 --> 37:17.770]  And I think we can do the same thing by continuing to demonstrate the ways that these systems can be fooled.
[37:18.150 --> 37:19.650]  Well, how would you go about doing that?
[37:19.650 --> 37:22.950]  What ways can you think of to actually demonstrate that this is flawed?
[37:23.150 --> 37:39.030]  Well, I was very impressed by some of the presentations that I saw at What the Hack, which I think is the most recent conference that I've been to in Europe, fooling fingerprint readers, kind of using chemicals to make it seem like your fingerprint is different from what it really is,
[37:40.090 --> 37:44.470]  you know, collecting fingerprints off of cups and other surfaces that someone's touched.
[37:44.590 --> 37:47.370]  It's really interesting how easy it is to do a lot of this stuff.
[37:47.570 --> 37:50.070]  And that's probably why they've moved on to irises and things like that.
[37:50.210 --> 37:51.210]  How do you fool an iris reader?
[37:51.510 --> 37:55.790]  Then irises are almost even more simple with the use of contact lenses and stuff like that.
[37:56.110 --> 37:59.870]  I mean, it's really not a good technology to use.
[38:00.230 --> 38:01.190]  I hope there's some good...
[38:01.190 --> 38:03.270]  I think if we demonstrate that more, it'd be good.
[38:03.430 --> 38:16.710]  I hope there's some good photographs of some of our political leaders that are of high enough resolution that their irises can be cloned and contact lenses be made available.
[38:17.250 --> 38:26.230]  So you could wear the iris of your favorite high-ranking politician and see where that information can be used.
[38:26.330 --> 38:41.370]  Though I do imagine that the Federal Criminal Code, Title 18, Section 1029, which addresses access devices, fraud or fraud and related activity in connection with access devices, I'll bet that's going to be updated to include not just credit cards and electronic serial numbers,
[38:41.410 --> 38:46.250]  but biometric data, such as fingerprints and irises and that sort of thing.
[38:46.570 --> 38:55.590]  Well, if people are going around duplicating other people's irises, I don't think violating that statute is going to be higher on their list of things to watch out for because obviously they're up to something else.
[38:55.770 --> 39:07.970]  But are you saying that if I was able to scan someone's iris, would I be able to use the information I collected from that to generate a contact lens or something that could actually duplicate that in another scan?
[39:08.610 --> 39:10.290]  You wouldn't even need to scan their iris.
[39:10.290 --> 39:11.550]  Let's just take a high-resolution picture.
[39:13.070 --> 39:14.730]  If it's that simple, then I'm in.
[39:15.370 --> 39:15.970]  Well, depending...
[39:15.970 --> 39:20.710]  Yeah, depending on the scanning technology that's in use, a relatively high-resolution image might be all that you need.
[39:21.850 --> 39:22.290]  All right.
[39:22.290 --> 39:23.470]  It's definitely food for thought.
[39:23.570 --> 39:26.730]  And again, this is something that would be great to have at the H.O.P.
[39:26.770 --> 39:30.410]  conference if there are people out there who want to take part in this.
[39:31.410 --> 39:36.930]  We'll try to keep you safe from the authorities in the period of time where you're showing us how to do this.
[39:37.390 --> 39:38.690]  We'd really like to know more about it.
[39:38.690 --> 39:45.070]  You can write to us, O-T-H, at 2600.com or hope at 2600.com to get involved with the conference.
[39:45.650 --> 39:50.330]  Now, also, when things like this happen, I like to always sort of give something back.
[39:50.430 --> 39:58.270]  If the authorities are trying to get something on all of us, it's always good to give something back and talk about the authorities.
[39:58.890 --> 40:05.710]  someone wrote in, a listener named Will wrote in to us saying, in your show two weeks ago, you talked about dialing interesting numbers.
[40:06.250 --> 40:08.930]  So I went on a quest to find some interesting telephone numbers.
[40:09.030 --> 40:09.550]  Good for you, Will.
[40:09.650 --> 40:10.050]  Good for you.
[40:10.450 --> 40:18.310]  After some digging online, I found a text file full of numbers, including the office of Governor Schwarzenegger and the number for the White House Situation Room.
[40:18.550 --> 40:20.430]  At first, I thought this can't be real.
[40:20.570 --> 40:23.110]  So, being curious as I am, I dialed it.
[40:23.410 --> 40:28.570]  Well, sure enough, when I dialed it, a person picked up the line and said, Situation Room, this is...
[40:28.570 --> 40:31.130]  His name was Mike, but I don't know if it should be read on the air.
[40:33.750 --> 40:35.250]  I think there are many Mikes there.
[40:35.390 --> 40:37.890]  There are many Mikes all over the place, including here.
[40:38.310 --> 40:41.010]  He stated his name, shocked and scared.
[40:41.010 --> 40:42.870]  I apologized and said, I think I have the wrong number.
[40:42.870 --> 40:45.090]  He said, okay, and hung up.
[40:45.650 --> 40:49.250]  Is it really that simple that they wouldn't have a machine or answering service?
[40:50.170 --> 40:51.410]  Guys, anything about this number?
[40:51.410 --> 40:52.170]  Is it legitimate?
[40:52.610 --> 40:55.530]  Well, first of all, Will, it's the Situation Room.
[40:55.530 --> 41:01.110]  You call that number, I guess, when there's a situation or if they have a situation, maybe they call you.
[41:02.170 --> 41:05.150]  Certainly answering services would just get in the way of that whole process.
[41:07.090 --> 41:09.950]  Second, I think that number has been floating around for years.
[41:10.330 --> 41:20.450]  I'm not saying it's not a good number to have around and to trade for various other things, but it's something that I think anybody who's really looking for it can find.
[41:20.450 --> 41:21.150]  It's good to have.
[41:21.330 --> 41:22.250]  It's a good number to have.
[41:22.450 --> 41:25.070]  Do any of you guys know what the Situation Room is actually all about, though?
[41:26.870 --> 41:27.650]  Situation Room?
[41:27.710 --> 41:28.310]  What do they do there?
[41:28.550 --> 41:28.890]  Yeah.
[41:29.610 --> 41:37.250]  Well, when the airplanes hit the World Trade Center, everybody bunkered down into the Situation Room and decided what they were going to do.
[41:37.330 --> 41:39.390]  And that's where Dick Cheney decided they were going to...
[41:39.770 --> 41:43.730]  he ordered the shoot-down of the plane over Pennsylvania.
[41:44.730 --> 41:47.590]  So that's the sort of thing that gets decided in the Situation Room.
[41:48.270 --> 41:48.850]  Wait, what?
[41:50.850 --> 41:52.930]  This is not 9-11 conspiracy stuff.
[41:53.070 --> 41:54.570]  This is, like, well-documented.
[41:55.490 --> 41:57.170]  Let's not open up that kettle of fish.
[41:57.390 --> 41:57.810]  No, seriously.
[41:58.070 --> 41:59.510]  No, no, I'm not saying it was shot down.
[41:59.630 --> 42:00.970]  He just made the decision to do that.
[42:01.030 --> 42:02.310]  It was too late to shoot it down at that point.
[42:02.330 --> 42:02.530]  Okay.
[42:02.690 --> 42:03.410]  No, I understand.
[42:03.510 --> 42:05.610]  I wasn't alleging that it was shot down.
[42:06.050 --> 42:07.030]  Well, it doesn't matter.
[42:07.130 --> 42:11.930]  Just opening up that kettle of fish is going to ensure phone calls are coming into the radio station for the next two days after we get off the air.
[42:12.190 --> 42:12.570]  Oh, absolutely.
[42:13.030 --> 42:15.930]  But those are the kinds of decisions that are made in the Situation Room.
[42:16.210 --> 42:20.110]  In the time that you started speaking, Bernie, I searched on Google for the White House Situation Room.
[42:20.330 --> 42:23.030]  I was, in fact, able to find extension 9431.
[42:23.350 --> 42:26.890]  I won't give any more of the number out, but that's apparently their number.
[42:27.070 --> 42:28.430]  Well, the goal isn't to wreak havoc.
[42:28.430 --> 42:34.990]  The goal is just to show that, you know, it's foolish to think that phone numbers can be kept as a secret.
[42:35.190 --> 42:40.790]  I mean, you know, they're all accessible from the PTSN and PSTN, right?
[42:41.150 --> 42:41.290]  Absolutely.
[42:41.290 --> 42:42.770]  So it's not a problem.
[42:42.910 --> 42:46.730]  You know, it's not something that one can expect to stay secret for very long.
[42:46.950 --> 42:50.630]  And here's something else a listener wrote in that I find kind of inspiring.
[42:50.870 --> 42:52.390]  This is from a listener named Matt.
[42:52.690 --> 42:56.870]  I know you talk a bit about photographing things that we are told not to photograph.
[42:57.050 --> 43:00.630]  I came across a site today that's still a bit small but has some potential.
[43:00.630 --> 43:03.230]  It's called strictlynophotography.com.
[43:03.270 --> 43:08.150]  It's an image database of user-submitted photographs of all the things we are not allowed to photograph.
[43:08.450 --> 43:09.670]  I think this is a really great idea.
[43:10.330 --> 43:14.590]  I saw there were some photos of subways in different parts of the world and I thought you guys might be interested.
[43:14.790 --> 43:15.510]  Indeed we are.
[43:15.610 --> 43:25.990]  This is definitely something that I find to be exactly what we should be doing to counter all these reports reports of things being illegal.
[43:26.390 --> 43:29.890]  There's only a handful of photographs there right now but I just clicked on one.
[43:30.530 --> 43:35.410]  And to give you an idea of the range description of this photograph this is Robert Mugabe's office.
[43:35.610 --> 43:37.270]  He's the president of Zimbabwe.
[43:37.470 --> 43:40.670]  I was pretty stupid to take a photo even from a car with darkened windows.
[43:40.910 --> 43:43.190]  The driver sped off as soon as he saw what I was up to.
[43:43.330 --> 43:51.070]  But the important thing is the picture made it to the website strictlynophotography.com and I imagine this is something that a lot of people can get involved with.
[43:51.170 --> 43:58.270]  Just show some people power opposing these policies of don't take pictures of these public structures.
[43:58.590 --> 44:09.930]  I wonder what the rule is on handing out pamphlets at those sites where you can't take pictures handing out pamphlets containing photos of those sites.
[44:11.110 --> 44:12.550]  That's a good question.
[44:12.970 --> 44:14.930]  I wonder what authorities would think of that.
[44:15.070 --> 44:15.430]  Like here.
[44:15.610 --> 44:17.710]  When they tell you not to take pictures like here, have some.
[44:19.270 --> 44:20.450]  They're all over the internet.
[44:20.850 --> 44:21.910]  Here, have some printouts.
[44:23.070 --> 44:23.470]  Absolutely.
[44:24.110 --> 44:33.710]  Our email address is OTH at 2600.com Now, Mike claims that he has done something he wasn't supposed to do.
[44:33.830 --> 44:34.710]  I'm going to hand the phone back to him.
[44:34.770 --> 44:37.210]  He's going to confess what he did on his way over here.
[44:38.710 --> 44:42.290]  Yeah, maybe this will be submitted to the website we were just talking about.
[44:42.830 --> 44:58.130]  But on my way to the JFK airport to fly out here, I took the air train and I noticed a sign in the air train that gave a notice that your possessions may be subject to voluntary search.
[44:58.530 --> 45:06.070]  And I didn't really understand what that meant because obviously you could volunteer to be searched to any point and it didn't say they were going to force you to search.
[45:06.150 --> 45:07.490]  So I thought it was kind of a funny sign.
[45:07.950 --> 45:24.850]  and being on my way out of the country I had a camera with me so I took a picture of it and immediately two air train people I don't really know what their job is so that's all I can call them two of these air train people told me that there was no photography allowed and I must stop immediately.
[45:25.530 --> 45:31.050]  So apparently they want you to know that you may be voluntarily searched but they don't want me to tell you.
[45:31.250 --> 45:34.850]  Now the air train is completely automated so where are these people coming in?
[45:35.610 --> 45:54.970]  As you leave the Howard Beach station the subway station and you have to pay five dollars to get onto the air train apparently this is something that the port authority believes to be very confusing the concept of paying five dollars by metric card so they have people at the turnstiles to explain.
[45:58.530 --> 46:00.970]  It's a bit of a strange idea.
[46:01.730 --> 46:07.830]  Well I think we all went through this it's a couple of years ago now with the photo ban protest right?
[46:07.990 --> 46:32.070]  We all I mean the strategy that seemed to work was just overwhelming the enforcement agents I guess because a lot of people are trying to enforce this ban with taking photos and once they realize they can't enforce it it might become less of an issue and once they realize that it's really impossible to ban photography especially with new technology and cameras getting smaller and smaller and
[46:32.070 --> 46:40.510]  easier to conceal really anything that you're able to see you can take a photo of or video of for that matter And the other cool thing about that is that, as you said, cameras are getting smaller and smaller.
[46:40.710 --> 46:42.350]  In fact, they're so small, they could be invisible.
[46:42.710 --> 46:48.650]  Hold up your hands, pretend you're taking a picture, and see the commotion that occurs, and then they realize you don't even have a camera, so they're just wasting their time.
[46:48.990 --> 46:52.750]  If everybody did that, take a pair of sunglasses, hold it up to your head, and make like you're taking a picture.
[46:53.710 --> 47:01.290]  Eventually, they'll just devote their time to something a bit more constructive, hopefully, like actually helping people with getting through the system.
[47:01.450 --> 47:04.190]  I actually took the air train from Jamaica, and same thing.
[47:04.190 --> 47:10.190]  All these people all over the place, guiding you through the system, because no one can figure it out, apparently.
[47:10.670 --> 47:16.890]  And I have to say, their machines are not as well-behaved as machines in the subway system.
[47:17.030 --> 47:19.330]  They tend not to read cards as well.
[47:19.510 --> 47:21.690]  I know there's a lot more people having trouble getting through them.
[47:22.370 --> 47:24.090]  So apparently, those people are needed there.
[47:24.670 --> 47:25.070]  Emmanuel?
[47:25.590 --> 47:25.750]  Yes.
[47:25.890 --> 47:41.170]  While we were talking about taking pictures of verboten sites and locations, that sort of thing, the whole thing is ludicrous, because these days, the technology makes it very easy to have hidden cameras in your clothing, in your eyeglasses, and that sort of thing.
[47:41.750 --> 47:56.010]  And, you know, CIA and KGB have been taking secret photos using cameras hidden in trench coats and things for more than 50 years, or since before World War II.
[47:56.170 --> 48:00.590]  This is nothing new, and this could be done easily by anyone without detection.
[48:00.590 --> 48:06.990]  So, you know, going after people who are obviously not doing it sneakily is just silly.
[48:08.150 --> 48:08.890]  Most definitely.
[48:10.150 --> 48:12.570]  Okay, let's open up the phone lines.
[48:12.970 --> 48:14.970]  Are we capable of taking even more calls?
[48:15.070 --> 48:17.630]  We are capable of taking them, but none are currently coming in.
[48:17.810 --> 48:19.670]  Okay, well, that's because we haven't given out the phone number yet.
[48:19.830 --> 48:24.610]  The phone number is area code 212-209-2900.
[48:24.610 --> 48:33.290]  And if you have any questions or statements for any of us, we'd certainly like to hear from you as far as various things that have been going on.
[48:34.090 --> 48:41.170]  Also, you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com, that is our email address, if you have access to the Internet.
[48:41.390 --> 48:44.070]  Or maybe there's a way to send it to a telex machine.
[48:44.310 --> 48:46.750]  Bernie, are there any telex gateways that you know of?
[48:47.510 --> 48:50.150]  Back in the day, but none I can remember off the top of my head.
[48:51.350 --> 48:51.750]  Yes.
[48:52.170 --> 48:55.430]  Now, you had an update, actually, on the whole AMPS.
[48:55.430 --> 49:01.110]  Speaking of technology of the past, the AmCellular phone call, we did a demonstration last week.
[49:01.110 --> 49:05.250]  We did, although I was in a very weak signal area in Philadelphia where I tried that.
[49:05.370 --> 49:15.290]  But I have since switched my Sprint PCS phone account to allow me for the next few months to make free analog calls.
[49:15.470 --> 49:19.390]  I pay an extra $5 a month for unlimited roaming on analog networks now.
[49:19.390 --> 49:37.690]  And February 18th of 2008 is the date the FCC has defined as the sunset of AMPS, or the Advanced Mobile Phone System, also known as analog cellular, which came into being about 24 years ago in the early 80s.
[49:39.100 --> 49:47.270]  The FCC will allow cellular carriers to finally stop carrying analog cell phone calls.
[49:47.270 --> 49:50.270]  Up until that date, they're required to carry them.
[49:50.790 --> 49:53.830]  After that, they won't be required to.
[49:53.890 --> 49:58.270]  And the only carriers this really applies to are carriers that handle the 800 megahertz calls.
[49:59.270 --> 50:08.750]  Like, that would be Verizon and any other incumbent telephone company in various regions that had originally carried analog cellular calls.
[50:08.830 --> 50:12.490]  There's dozens of them across the country in all major markets.
[50:12.490 --> 50:19.350]  So, I will be continuing to make as many analog cell phone calls as I can between now and February 18th, and reporting what's happening.
[50:19.530 --> 50:26.170]  And I hope to make the last analog cell phone call in Philadelphia when it happens.
[50:26.270 --> 50:27.450]  Perhaps it'll even be on the air.
[50:28.010 --> 50:28.490]  We'll see.
[50:28.590 --> 50:30.370]  What day of the week is February 18th?
[50:31.030 --> 50:31.750]  Does anyone know?
[50:32.150 --> 50:32.970]  We'll look that up.
[50:33.450 --> 50:34.310]  We'll look that up.
[50:34.390 --> 50:36.490]  And in the meantime, we'll start taking phone calls.
[50:38.710 --> 50:39.470]  And good evening.
[50:39.610 --> 50:39.990]  You're on the air.
[50:41.470 --> 50:42.210]  Yeah, hello?
[50:42.510 --> 50:42.710]  Hello.
[50:43.770 --> 50:44.550]  What's on your mind?
[50:45.150 --> 50:45.710]  Pardon me?
[50:45.890 --> 50:46.590]  What's on your mind?
[50:47.390 --> 50:52.850]  I wanted to ask some questions about the analog system that's closing down.
[50:53.310 --> 50:53.770]  Go ahead.
[50:56.330 --> 50:57.410]  Go ahead with your question.
[50:57.810 --> 50:57.950]  Yeah.
[50:57.990 --> 50:58.490]  And on your radio.
[50:58.610 --> 50:59.770]  Are you guys nuts?
[50:59.950 --> 51:01.590]  You guys are conspiracy nuts.
[51:01.810 --> 51:02.170]  Nuts!
[51:02.850 --> 51:04.050]  Okay, well, enough of that.
[51:05.390 --> 51:08.290]  How did he transition from one of those topics to the other?
[51:08.290 --> 51:12.250]  Well, maybe he thinks it's a conspiracy, the reason they're shutting this down.
[51:12.370 --> 51:12.830]  Who knows?
[51:12.950 --> 51:15.110]  Well, the date of February 18th, by the way, is a Monday.
[51:15.570 --> 51:16.830]  Yes, I was just looking that up myself.
[51:17.030 --> 51:27.690]  So we'll see if I'll be able to make a call into Off the Hook or receive a call via analog cellular on the 20th, which is the next Wednesday.
[51:28.110 --> 51:28.970]  We'll see what happens.
[51:29.270 --> 51:29.530]  All right.
[51:30.790 --> 51:31.530]  And good evening.
[51:31.670 --> 51:32.030]  You're on the air.
[51:32.670 --> 51:33.230]  Next Wednesday.
[51:33.590 --> 51:34.530]  Turn down your radio, please.
[51:35.070 --> 51:35.430]  Okay.
[51:36.770 --> 51:37.110]  Okay.
[51:37.110 --> 51:37.790]  What's on your mind?
[51:38.630 --> 51:39.150]  Yes, hi.
[51:39.910 --> 51:45.050]  In Europe, they've been dealing a lot with the Muslims for hundreds of years.
[51:45.350 --> 51:45.890]  And I think...
[51:45.890 --> 51:48.210]  Okay, I'm not sure this is an appropriate question for the show.
[51:48.330 --> 51:49.950]  Well, we didn't ask the question yet, but what's the question?
[51:50.290 --> 51:51.750]  Oh, well, I've already...
[51:51.750 --> 51:52.010]  Okay.
[51:52.750 --> 51:55.230]  I might have been asking something about telecommunications or something.
[51:55.230 --> 51:55.510]  I don't know.
[51:55.510 --> 51:56.770]  It's possible, but unlikely.
[51:56.930 --> 51:57.050]  Okay.
[51:57.270 --> 51:57.530]  All right.
[51:58.410 --> 51:58.970]  Good evening.
[51:59.090 --> 51:59.450]  You're on the air.
[52:01.310 --> 52:01.810]  Good evening.
[52:02.010 --> 52:02.390]  You're on the air.
[52:04.070 --> 52:12.390]  Yes, I'd just like to say that I think that George Bush is...
[52:12.870 --> 52:13.810]  Okay, I'm sorry.
[52:14.010 --> 52:15.730]  This is not the show for me.
[52:15.790 --> 52:18.750]  Well, you know, he might be saying something about George Bush sending a telex or something.
[52:18.870 --> 52:21.350]  You've got to give people at least a chance to discredit themselves.
[52:21.510 --> 52:24.090]  Okay, well, I will give the next person a chance to discredit themselves.
[52:24.350 --> 52:26.070]  Well, they probably really will, but okay, go ahead.
[52:26.090 --> 52:26.450]  Okay.
[52:27.310 --> 52:27.890]  Good evening.
[52:27.890 --> 52:28.470]  You're on the air.
[52:29.270 --> 52:29.630]  Hi.
[52:30.490 --> 52:30.850]  Hello?
[52:31.030 --> 52:31.770]  Yes, what's on your mind?
[52:31.770 --> 52:35.390]  Yeah, do you guys know about any technology in voice-activated computers?
[52:35.590 --> 52:36.630]  You know, you can skip the keyboard.
[52:38.810 --> 52:40.410]  Any research going on on that?
[52:41.050 --> 52:43.650]  Yeah, it's well into the commercial phase.
[52:43.650 --> 52:51.010]  I think even Microsoft has a product now they're rolling out in, I could be mistaken, in a lot of Ford vehicles called Sync.
[52:51.190 --> 52:51.550]  Right.
[52:51.550 --> 52:57.950]  You can just say the phone number or say the name of the musical artist you want to hear and play that.
[52:58.030 --> 52:59.970]  I've seen TV ads pitching this.
[52:59.970 --> 53:09.130]  I don't know how well it works, but if Microsoft is pushing it, you can bet that it's well entrenched by other companies by that point, and probably Microsoft has already stolen some of those ideas.
[53:09.810 --> 53:12.430]  Well, they're like laptops and, you know, test computers.
[53:12.430 --> 53:19.090]  Sure, the speech-to-text algorithms have been around for a long time and are getting pretty good.
[53:19.590 --> 53:27.110]  But people find it's actually not as convenient to say, talk to your computer, it is just to type what you want.
[53:27.430 --> 53:33.170]  I believe the new Windows Vista operating system comes pre-shipped with a speech-to-text.
[53:34.110 --> 53:36.790]  Because I think that's a great idea, speech-to-text, yeah.
[53:38.030 --> 53:39.170]  Well, thanks for that phone call.
[53:39.550 --> 53:40.390]  Okay, thank you.
[53:40.630 --> 53:41.430]  And you...
[53:41.430 --> 53:42.750]  Nice to get a good phone call.
[53:42.910 --> 53:42.970]  Okay.
[53:44.030 --> 53:44.510]  All right.
[53:45.330 --> 53:46.370]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[53:48.210 --> 53:48.570]  Hello?
[53:48.830 --> 53:49.470]  You're on the air.
[53:50.590 --> 53:52.570]  Hey, I was just calling about...
[53:52.570 --> 54:00.410]  You guys were talking earlier about the government kind of keeping track of everybody's personal identity and everything like that?
[54:00.690 --> 54:01.190]  Yes.
[54:01.850 --> 54:04.810]  Actually, OPM has started doing that last year.
[54:04.930 --> 54:08.250]  I work for official personnel management for the government.
[54:08.250 --> 54:10.790]  They started doing it with enlisted people about a year ago.
[54:11.050 --> 54:11.990]  It's pretty creepy.
[54:12.150 --> 54:21.630]  They have huge records of, many of them voice patterns, fingerprints, just volumes and volumes of data.
[54:21.630 --> 54:23.990]  I mean, it's terribly creepy.
[54:24.390 --> 54:27.070]  Now, how do they obtain these voice samples?
[54:27.690 --> 54:30.850]  They have phone calls that are recorded.
[54:31.490 --> 54:32.130]  Most...
[54:32.130 --> 54:40.970]  If you get, like, a black op certification, like if you get your SEI security clearance, and you call in, you know, go...
[54:41.430 --> 54:43.970]  There's something called, like, your Q...
[54:43.970 --> 54:47.250]  I believe it's EQIP online.
[54:47.250 --> 54:52.230]  You can fill out forms or whatever to get your certification.
[54:52.590 --> 54:53.530]  That's a preliminary.
[54:53.790 --> 54:56.190]  Then after that, they'll call you in for an interview.
[54:56.730 --> 55:12.870]  During that interview, most top-secret security clearances now require you to say a few recognition words, and they'll have, I don't know, just a list of random words that they give you to say.
[55:13.130 --> 55:24.290]  And you'll say that, and they record it, and make a database file, basically, attach it to your file as your voice recording.
[55:25.410 --> 55:28.530]  It's pretty, uh, pretty wacky stuff.
[55:28.930 --> 55:29.090]  Wow.
[55:29.310 --> 55:36.670]  Well, you know, it's interesting, because they always, uh, try things out on the people in the military first before they try it out on people in the civilian population.
[55:36.990 --> 55:38.510]  So you guys are definitely at the forefront.
[55:39.230 --> 55:40.210]  That's exactly right.
[55:40.210 --> 55:42.730]  That's what's so scary, because you know it's, uh...
[55:42.730 --> 55:45.010]  It's coming at the, you know, the general public next.
[55:45.670 --> 55:45.970]  Mm-hmm.
[55:46.350 --> 55:46.790]  So...
[55:46.790 --> 55:50.970]  Well, thanks for letting us know the information about that, and keep your eyes open.
[55:51.130 --> 55:52.390]  You're still involved in this?
[55:53.150 --> 55:53.910]  Um, yes.
[55:54.290 --> 55:55.010]  Yes, actually.
[55:56.010 --> 56:01.090]  Um, it's, uh, I can't give out my name online or anything, or, I mean, on the air, but...
[56:01.090 --> 56:04.050]  Um, I've been listening to you guys for about three or four years now.
[56:04.790 --> 56:06.730]  Um, I was currently a...
[56:06.730 --> 56:09.470]  When I first started listening to you guys, I was a black hat for the DOD.
[56:10.470 --> 56:15.490]  Um, I got a part-time job at the NSA just doing, uh, data entry.
[56:15.730 --> 56:24.870]  Pretty, pretty young guy, so, um, you know, any job I could get with the government that was interesting to me and had to do with, uh, IT or technology.
[56:25.610 --> 56:27.270]  Um, I jumped at the chance.
[56:28.150 --> 56:31.350]  Um, now I'm doing, uh, OPM security.
[56:31.970 --> 56:36.490]  Um, I just, uh, secure firewalls and networks, uh, for OPM.
[56:36.490 --> 56:40.570]  Um, and, um, I work with a guy that does, uh, he's in the data entry department.
[56:40.810 --> 56:46.050]  And just the stuff that he tells me that they're, they're doing just, I'm, curdles my stomach.
[56:46.450 --> 56:52.630]  Well, please, uh, keep, keep us in the loop on this, because it's definitely something we're interested in and we feel we have the obligation to let the public know as well.
[56:53.790 --> 56:54.150]  Exactly.
[56:54.930 --> 56:55.290]  Exactly.
[56:55.450 --> 56:56.990]  Hey, I appreciate, I appreciate the show.
[56:57.190 --> 56:57.850]  I love you guys.
[56:58.630 --> 56:59.290]  Uh, keep up at work.
[56:59.770 --> 56:59.890]  Yep.
[57:00.290 --> 57:00.470]  Bye.
[57:01.410 --> 57:04.510]  All right, and, uh, well, some feedback here.
[57:04.650 --> 57:05.850]  We're just about out of time.
[57:06.090 --> 57:08.830]  Uh, is there any final comment from...
[57:08.830 --> 57:10.490]  Can we hand the phone over to Mike for his final words?
[57:10.590 --> 57:10.930]  Yeah, sure.
[57:12.090 --> 57:20.190]  Um, I don't know if I have anything particularly brilliant to say, but I'm, I'm looking forward to this conference and, uh, to telling the, uh, listeners all about it next week.
[57:20.410 --> 57:22.050]  And we look forward to hearing about it.
[57:24.330 --> 57:27.970]  I, I echo Mike's words, and I'll speak to you again from Berlin next week.
[57:27.970 --> 57:28.690]  All right.
[57:29.530 --> 57:31.810]  And, uh, okay, a very good evening to everyone.
[57:31.950 --> 57:32.650]  Thank you for listening.
[01:00:27.180 --> 01:00:28.940]  No, we're going right into this.
[01:00:29.080 --> 01:00:30.600]  We're going right into this.
[01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:32.180]  All right.
[01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:32.640]  What's this?
[01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:33.940]  The phone's ringing and everything.