[00:00.000 --> 00:04.520]  We podcast at www.fsrn.org.
[00:04.940 --> 00:07.580]  That's fsrn.org.
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[00:14.780 --> 00:18.340]  Our newscast is produced by Monica Lopez and Taina Gisi.
[00:18.660 --> 00:21.320]  Our Washington DC editor is Leanne Caldwell.
[00:21.500 --> 00:23.700]  And our headlines editor is Shannon Young.
[00:23.940 --> 00:29.600]  Our technical production team at KPFA in Berkeley includes Eric Klein and Antonio Ortiz.
[00:30.000 --> 00:32.720]  From KPFK in L.A., I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:35.380 --> 00:38.960]  And from WBAI New York... I'm sorry.
[00:39.280 --> 00:41.460]  The machine is a little bit more eager than we are.
[00:41.840 --> 00:45.380]  From WBAI New York, it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:05.480 --> 01:08.680]  From WBAI New York, it's time for the best to expect the worst.
[01:09.200 --> 01:11.160]  I hope that's understood.
[01:11.360 --> 01:12.340]  From WBAI
[02:05.790 --> 02:26.870]  New York, it's time for the best to expect the worst.
[02:26.870 --> 02:29.410]  And joining us in the studio tonight is Mike.
[02:29.710 --> 02:31.490]  Hello, and happy winter to everyone.
[02:31.670 --> 02:33.150]  Yes, it actually was winter yesterday.
[02:33.150 --> 02:34.050]  I was happy about that.
[02:34.210 --> 02:35.250]  One day of winter.
[02:35.410 --> 02:37.830]  Well, I mean, I'm trying to put a good spin on it.
[02:37.830 --> 02:39.330]  Yeah, and today it was a monsoon.
[02:39.730 --> 02:41.010]  Over on the other side of the room is not Kevin.
[02:41.410 --> 02:41.810]  Hello.
[02:41.970 --> 02:43.270]  Down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[02:43.630 --> 02:44.630]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:44.630 --> 02:51.230]  And we have all sorts of things, all sorts of special events and guests and things like that coming up this hour.
[02:51.550 --> 02:58.570]  If you just want to get right to it, though, and call up and support the show, support the station, the number is 212-209-2950.
[02:58.770 --> 03:01.110]  Why not establish a telephone chain?
[03:01.230 --> 03:11.510]  Call all your friends and relatives, enemies too, and just let them know that in the next hour, we will be taking your phone calls to help keep this station alive, to help keep this radio show going.
[03:12.370 --> 03:20.070]  And we'll also be playing an excerpt from a historic radio show of the past, something that you can partake in yourself.
[03:20.070 --> 03:22.670]  We'll give you details in just a few minutes.
[03:22.670 --> 03:26.730]  But first, first, let's take a look at what's been going on in the world.
[03:27.090 --> 03:27.750]  Do we have to?
[03:27.850 --> 03:30.210]  We have to, because the world is out there and we're part of it.
[03:31.610 --> 03:32.170]  We are.
[03:32.290 --> 03:32.530]  We are.
[03:33.650 --> 03:39.710]  Now, this is something I'm not a part of, but it's something good to, I guess, to hear about, maybe.
[03:40.670 --> 03:41.850]  And that's BlackBerrys.
[03:41.930 --> 03:42.290]  You hear about this?
[03:42.370 --> 03:43.050]  The BlackBerrys?
[03:43.150 --> 03:44.450]  All the BlackBerrys went out.
[03:44.950 --> 03:45.750]  Another time?
[03:45.890 --> 03:46.810]  It's happened before.
[03:47.130 --> 03:50.310]  Yeah, it's happened a bunch of times, but they still don't know why.
[03:50.830 --> 03:58.090]  Now, the company that makes, and they call this the addictive BlackBerry, ubiquitous addictive BlackBerry smartphones.
[03:58.610 --> 04:05.630]  They said yesterday they're still looking into what caused the second widespread service disruption in less than a year.
[04:06.570 --> 04:12.730]  Now, customers in the United States and Canada experienced intermittent delays for about three hours on Monday, beginning about 3.30 p.m.
[04:12.970 --> 04:13.490]  Eastern Time.
[04:13.850 --> 04:18.330]  No messages were lost, and voice and text messaging services were unaffected.
[04:18.410 --> 04:28.830]  But I imagine that text messages were kind of delayed, and that's the same thing as being lost if, say, you're trying to text somebody, the avalanche is coming your way, please move, you know, whatever.
[04:29.010 --> 04:33.410]  It might be time sensitive, and, you know, the message is sort of no good if it goes through late.
[04:34.550 --> 04:42.410]  Well, maybe text messages, SMSs were unaffected, but special BlackBerry emails were delayed.
[04:42.530 --> 04:43.230]  What about phone calls?
[04:43.970 --> 04:46.310]  They could be delayed by as much as 10 minutes.
[04:46.570 --> 04:47.570]  But they wouldn't go through.
[04:47.810 --> 04:48.890]  It's not like they delay.
[04:49.110 --> 04:51.030]  It's just if the person's going to give up and not make the phone call.
[04:51.910 --> 05:02.770]  Anyway, the BlackBerry service, which lets users check email and access other data, has become a lifeline for many business executives and is increasingly popular among consumers with smartphones like the BlackBerry Pearl.
[05:03.050 --> 05:10.810]  Outages have been rare in the BlackBerry's nine-year history, but when they do hit, subscribers who have become addicted to the gadgets are quick to unleash their fury.
[05:11.550 --> 05:14.250]  And there's a lot of language here I can't read from this story.
[05:14.650 --> 05:17.310]  But including this guy, I guess, 1,000 emails a day.
[05:17.490 --> 05:20.230]  He's a director of field marketing for a web analytics company.
[05:21.270 --> 05:22.050]  1,000?
[05:22.190 --> 05:24.150]  1,000 emails a day on his BlackBerry.
[05:24.150 --> 05:26.810]  I mean, I'd be livid just getting that.
[05:26.990 --> 05:28.330]  I don't know how somebody can survive.
[05:28.710 --> 05:32.210]  I've never really been into these little handheld devices.
[05:32.230 --> 05:36.150]  I never really want to check my email while I'm on a train or while I'm driving or anything like that.
[05:36.250 --> 05:37.310]  So, I don't know.
[05:37.370 --> 05:38.770]  I see it as kind of a welcome relief.
[05:38.870 --> 05:40.530]  But I can understand why people might be a little peeved.
[05:42.430 --> 05:44.010]  Hence the name Crackberry.
[05:44.510 --> 05:46.550]  Yeah, because people get so addicted to this.
[05:47.690 --> 05:49.710]  Does anybody here have a BlackBerry or equivalent?
[05:50.070 --> 05:50.430]  No.
[05:50.590 --> 05:50.730]  No?
[05:50.910 --> 05:52.090]  Do we know of anybody who has one?
[05:52.430 --> 05:53.850]  I know of people that have them.
[05:53.850 --> 05:55.730]  People on the radio station...
[05:55.730 --> 05:58.770]  I mean, people on the radio show who might not be present that we can talk about.
[05:58.950 --> 06:02.910]  Well, our broadcast internet coordinator, Junts, has a BlackBerry.
[06:02.910 --> 06:03.410]  He does.
[06:03.770 --> 06:04.170]  Okay.
[06:04.650 --> 06:06.490]  Well, hopefully some mocking of him later on.
[06:07.370 --> 06:07.890]  All right.
[06:08.010 --> 06:11.010]  So, I guess we can ask him if he was affected by this.
[06:11.110 --> 06:12.050]  Wasn't able to get messages.
[06:13.190 --> 06:13.990]  Many times...
[06:13.990 --> 06:17.870]  In fact, you had an issue, not Kevin, with your phone this weekend.
[06:18.590 --> 06:19.690]  What kind of phone do you have?
[06:19.890 --> 06:21.910]  A Verizon Samsung phone.
[06:21.910 --> 06:22.270]  Okay.
[06:22.730 --> 06:27.990]  Now, what happened with you was your phone just started blinking over and over again.
[06:28.370 --> 06:29.250]  This is unbelievable.
[06:29.690 --> 06:31.190]  You had tried to charge it.
[06:31.250 --> 06:32.890]  In fact, you thought you had succeeded in charging it.
[06:33.250 --> 06:38.070]  And when you turned it on, it just would flash the Verizon logo over and over again and not do anything else.
[06:38.090 --> 06:39.090]  Not do anything at all.
[06:39.090 --> 06:41.250]  And the solution to this problem was what?
[06:41.870 --> 06:43.330]  Throwing it out of a 10-story building.
[06:43.570 --> 06:43.750]  Uh-huh.
[06:44.310 --> 06:45.090]  And that fixed it?
[06:45.450 --> 06:46.230]  Not necessarily.
[06:47.010 --> 06:47.330]  Okay.
[06:48.070 --> 06:49.490]  You weren't able to find it after that.
[06:49.550 --> 06:49.750]  No.
[06:49.950 --> 06:50.910]  You had to get a new phone, basically.
[06:51.150 --> 06:51.310]  I had to get a new phone.
[06:51.630 --> 06:53.050]  So, that's the solution to that problem.
[06:53.170 --> 06:53.830]  So, yeah, it's not just...
[06:53.830 --> 06:54.570]  Was it covered under warranty?
[06:56.550 --> 06:57.590]  I don't think so.
[06:57.870 --> 06:58.790]  Well, did you pay for...
[06:58.790 --> 07:01.550]  You didn't take the pieces back and say, hey, my phone broke.
[07:01.810 --> 07:03.750]  Give me another one under my warranty?
[07:04.330 --> 07:04.690]  No.
[07:04.910 --> 07:06.870]  I don't think warranties cover 10-story fault.
[07:07.110 --> 07:07.150]  No.
[07:07.550 --> 07:10.590]  As long as the screen's intact, you're pretty much okay.
[07:10.810 --> 07:11.110]  All right.
[07:11.190 --> 07:13.210]  Well, I'm sorry to hear about that.
[07:13.290 --> 07:18.730]  But the interesting thing was, and the reason I brought that up, was I tried texting you afterwards via instant messenger.
[07:19.150 --> 07:19.870]  You can do that.
[07:19.930 --> 07:26.410]  If you just go plus one phone number in the United States on an AIM client, it'll go through and text message the phone.
[07:26.470 --> 07:28.290]  Of course, it won't go through to a landline.
[07:28.870 --> 07:29.830]  At least I don't think so.
[07:29.910 --> 07:30.790]  Maybe these days it will.
[07:31.290 --> 07:35.090]  But I got a message back saying that your phone was unreachable, even though your phone was on.
[07:35.250 --> 07:35.830]  It's very true.
[07:36.010 --> 07:36.410]  So, yeah.
[07:36.610 --> 07:37.350]  These things happen.
[07:37.470 --> 07:38.170]  These things happen a lot.
[07:38.930 --> 07:39.270]  Okay.
[07:39.490 --> 07:43.170]  BlackBerry, interesting story, but certainly not the most important story of the week.
[07:43.830 --> 07:45.970]  There are all sorts of other things going on as well.
[07:46.070 --> 07:50.710]  This is something that really kind of jumped out and didn't get a whole lot of attention.
[07:50.710 --> 07:51.530]  It got some attention.
[07:51.530 --> 07:54.050]  I think it was in the Washington Post and it was on CNN.
[07:54.050 --> 08:01.210]  But basically, there are reports, increasing reports, of people entering this country and having U.S.
[08:01.290 --> 08:08.190]  Customs and Border Protection, DHS people, forcing them to not only be searched.
[08:08.390 --> 08:09.370]  We're used to being searched.
[08:09.430 --> 08:10.810]  We've all been searched at some point, haven't we?
[08:11.150 --> 08:11.850]  Have you been searched?
[08:11.970 --> 08:12.970]  I've been searched many times.
[08:13.210 --> 08:13.590]  I've been...
[08:13.590 --> 08:15.390]  You haven't gone out of the country that many times.
[08:15.730 --> 08:16.490]  Not that you know.
[08:16.550 --> 08:16.810]  All right.
[08:16.950 --> 08:18.370]  Well, I've been searched a lot.
[08:18.950 --> 08:20.350]  Mike, I'm pretty sure you've been searched.
[08:20.350 --> 08:25.590]  I'm rather less suspicious than you, but I do occasionally get searched.
[08:25.830 --> 08:35.530]  Well, what we're hearing from these reports is that people are being forced to turn over their...
[08:35.530 --> 08:42.290]  To hand over their computers, but also to type in their passwords and allow people...
[08:42.290 --> 08:43.790]  Allow people to...
[08:43.790 --> 08:44.990]  Not just any people.
[08:45.070 --> 08:45.750]  Customs agents.
[08:46.150 --> 08:50.250]  Allow them to actually go through your computer, look at all your files.
[08:51.150 --> 08:52.490]  And get all kinds of information.
[08:52.630 --> 08:53.410]  Take your computer away.
[08:53.590 --> 08:54.150]  Copy the files.
[08:54.230 --> 08:54.790]  Who knows what?
[08:55.430 --> 09:03.210]  And I saw this report and the tone of the report was, this is what Department of Homeland Security people can do and there's not much you can do about it.
[09:03.390 --> 09:05.010]  And I was like, what are you talking about?
[09:05.090 --> 09:06.010]  There's not much you can do about it.
[09:06.050 --> 09:08.410]  How about refusing to give up your password to start with?
[09:08.550 --> 09:10.250]  This is the kind of thing you get arrested for.
[09:10.350 --> 09:17.450]  This is the kind of thing you just absolutely, without any hesitation, say, no blank way am I going to give this information up.
[09:17.450 --> 09:19.730]  Now, is that an unreasonable stance to take?
[09:19.830 --> 09:20.890]  Am I just outdated?
[09:21.090 --> 09:22.650]  Are people doing this on a regular basis?
[09:22.930 --> 09:30.230]  Well, the thing is, you might be able to take this stance, but a foreigner who took that stance when trying to enter the country might then be told, oh, you can't come in.
[09:30.970 --> 09:32.190]  And that could be a problem.
[09:32.290 --> 09:35.030]  Are you saying this is only being applied to foreigners and not to U.S.
[09:35.050 --> 09:35.250]  citizens?
[09:35.250 --> 09:42.490]  I'm just saying that many of the people being mistreated by customs agents do not have a lot of options.
[09:42.670 --> 09:42.830]  Of course.
[09:42.830 --> 09:52.650]  And there's no question that people with the biggest disadvantage and not a whole lot of negotiation room will be victimized by this more than anybody else.
[09:52.810 --> 10:07.070]  What I'm saying is, if this were to happen to anyone who is a citizen of this country and is pretty much guaranteed reentry, is this the kind of thing that we really should take a strong stand against, or should we capitulate and allow them to look at our files because we have nothing to hide?
[10:07.810 --> 10:17.010]  Well, I think we should take a stand, but, you know, I have a lot of time on my hands, so, you know, I might not be the right person to ask.
[10:17.170 --> 10:17.470]  Okay.
[10:17.570 --> 10:18.850]  Well, I'd like to know what other people think.
[10:18.930 --> 10:19.450]  Bernie, what about you?
[10:20.810 --> 10:23.950]  I think it's outrageous, and I think people should take a stand.
[10:24.130 --> 10:29.630]  But at the same time, I think people should subvert this craziness.
[10:29.630 --> 10:40.150]  I mean, terrorists are not going to bring information that's going to give up their plots on a laptop or an mp3 player or a cell phone.
[10:40.370 --> 10:41.890]  They're going to use sneakier means.
[10:42.150 --> 10:43.130]  They're professionals.
[10:43.730 --> 10:49.250]  And these efforts are not targeted at homeland security or the safety of our citizens.
[10:49.250 --> 10:54.430]  They're targeted at sort of fishing expeditions and snooping on seeing what people are doing.
[10:54.430 --> 11:10.250]  Yeah, but, I mean, granted, a good terrorist isn't going to have a lot of damning information on a laptop, but still, I don't think there's anybody who would not have a whole chain of information on a laptop that could link them to all sorts of things,
[11:10.270 --> 11:11.190]  good or bad.
[11:12.510 --> 11:16.970]  So taking a computer from anybody is opening up a whole lot of doors.
[11:17.070 --> 11:20.190]  Now, some people will say, yeah, we need to open those doors to keep everybody safe.
[11:20.710 --> 11:27.670]  But I think that the cost of that for all the innocent people who have their privacy completely invaded, it's just way too high.
[11:27.910 --> 11:29.670]  I see two solutions to this.
[11:29.910 --> 11:34.670]  One, people can encrypt their data and they can refuse to give up their password.
[11:34.990 --> 12:00.590]  Or they can back up their data to some other medium, either something on an FTP server or somewhere out there on the internet, which they can, after they cross over the border, they can download the data back again to their device, or they can copy it to some really tiny memory devices out there now that are incredibly small that remind me of the old micro dots that are used in the spy movie,
[12:00.790 --> 12:03.010]  well, it's actually an espionage, an actual espionage.
[12:03.450 --> 12:05.730]  There's the micro SD format.
[12:07.290 --> 12:12.630]  It's a memory module that's about the size of one of your smaller fingernails.
[12:12.630 --> 12:13.810]  It's really small.
[12:14.070 --> 12:18.770]  You could hide it in an earring or a belt buckle with ease.
[12:18.930 --> 12:22.250]  And it's got not enough metal in it to set off metal detectors.
[12:22.510 --> 12:25.930]  And they can store up to eight gigabytes, probably more in the near future.
[12:26.110 --> 12:27.550]  That's a lot of data.
[12:27.770 --> 12:29.670]  Are you actually suggesting swallowing this?
[12:30.390 --> 12:38.590]  No, that would not... I don't think it would survive going to your gastrointestinal system and the hydrochloric acid.
[12:38.670 --> 12:43.490]  What if you enclose it in, say, some device?
[12:43.490 --> 12:44.030]  I don't know.
[12:44.330 --> 12:45.650]  Your stomach acids are pretty strong.
[12:45.750 --> 12:49.530]  But you could probably just put it in your... between your cheek and your gum, for that matter.
[12:49.650 --> 12:51.730]  They're not x-raying people as they're going through the border yet.
[12:51.950 --> 12:53.570]  You can just put it between your cheek and your gum.
[12:53.690 --> 12:57.350]  And this thing is so small, you wouldn't hardly feel it until you got across the border.
[12:57.450 --> 12:59.550]  Then you just pull it out and stick it in a reader.
[12:59.730 --> 13:04.510]  And then you have your eight gigabytes of data back in your laptop or MP3 player or whatever.
[13:04.510 --> 13:07.790]  But I think we can agree that most people are not going to go to that amount of trouble.
[13:07.910 --> 13:15.530]  Most people are going to be victimized by this, and they're going to have all their privacy invaded and a lot of information perused.
[13:15.850 --> 13:17.250]  What price privacy?
[13:17.710 --> 13:31.230]  I mean, if I have information that I don't want our government to archive and reference for the rest of my life, which there's no indication that they're not doing this, then you have to resort to protecting your privacy.
[13:31.230 --> 13:32.470]  You have to be proactive.
[13:32.470 --> 13:36.250]  You're not going to be able to win on logical grounds with the U.S.
[13:36.350 --> 13:37.150]  government, clearly.
[13:38.430 --> 13:40.550]  So you have to resort to other means.
[13:40.730 --> 13:41.570]  And I think that's...
[13:41.570 --> 13:42.690]  Well, I'll tell you what, Bernie.
[13:42.830 --> 13:47.810]  I'm going to walk through with my laptop proudly with all my data on it, and they are not getting the password out of me.
[13:47.910 --> 13:50.610]  And we'll see how far that little battle of wills goes.
[13:50.610 --> 14:01.790]  Well, I'd like a caller, any of our callers who've gone through this, who travel regularly through international borders to give us their feedback on what happened when they refused to give up the password.
[14:01.830 --> 14:06.730]  I'm really interested in what different countries' governments had to say about that.
[14:06.730 --> 14:08.530]  And what happens if you honestly forget your password, too?
[14:09.250 --> 14:11.630]  I'd like to know what kind of penalty there is for a bad memory.
[14:12.210 --> 14:19.650]  Well, one thing we didn't mention is that the Electronic Frontier Foundation is actually suing to stop this practice, which is how it got into the news in the first place.
[14:19.770 --> 14:22.810]  So maybe they'll succeed, although the way things are going.
[14:23.070 --> 14:25.210]  Yeah, well, we'll keep an eye on that story for sure.
[14:25.430 --> 14:32.310]  The other point to make is that they could just take your hard drive and make a copy of it, and they don't need your password in that case.
[14:32.410 --> 14:33.210]  Well, that's true, too.
[14:33.390 --> 14:33.870]  That's true, too.
[14:33.950 --> 14:38.710]  I would never let my laptop out of my sight without a big fuss.
[14:38.710 --> 14:44.490]  I know we don't have many choices in these things, but if something like that were to happen, let everybody in the world...
[14:44.490 --> 14:47.770]  Now, the reason why this is being talked about is because somebody lets somebody else know.
[14:48.190 --> 14:51.090]  And that's how a word of this gets around.
[14:52.610 --> 14:54.590]  Okay, this is an interesting story as well.
[14:55.790 --> 14:57.270]  This just happened, actually.
[14:57.470 --> 15:14.170]  This has to do with, speaking of government issues, after more than a year of wrangling, the Senate handed the White House a major victory on Tuesday by voting to broaden the government's spy powers and give legal protection to phone companies that cooperated in President Bush's program of eavesdropping without warrants.
[15:14.250 --> 15:16.570]  Now, we talked about this back when it happened.
[15:17.230 --> 15:21.130]  Phone companies basically allowing eavesdropping, no warrants, completely illegal.
[15:21.350 --> 15:28.410]  And what happened yesterday, the Senate voted to just allow that, allow the phone companies to be immune from any kind of prosecution.
[15:28.710 --> 15:34.510]  Now, it's interesting because there's two versions of how the vote went based on current presidential candidates.
[15:34.950 --> 15:42.350]  According to the New York Times, the two Democrats, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and Senator Hillary Rodden Clinton of New York, did not vote.
[15:42.610 --> 15:46.970]  And if you look at other sites, including CBS, they phrase it this way.
[15:47.410 --> 15:53.890]  They say that Barack Obama voted against immunity for telecoms and Senator Hillary Clinton did not show up for the vote.
[15:54.350 --> 16:01.150]  Now, Mike, you have, I believe, information on how exactly... You looked it up, actually, in a neutral site.
[16:01.150 --> 16:06.010]  You have, but I also have the very next sentence in the New York Times article you quoted, which explains it just as well.
[16:06.150 --> 16:11.070]  So, which is that Mr. Obama did oppose immunity on a key earlier motion.
[16:11.650 --> 16:12.170]  So...
[16:12.170 --> 16:12.710]  So what does that mean?
[16:12.730 --> 16:23.070]  There was more than one opportunity to remove this clause from the bill, which would grant immunity to the telecoms providers.
[16:23.210 --> 16:33.250]  And I guess Senator Obama did vote in the immunity denying way one time, and then he went off to campaign.
[16:33.470 --> 16:38.090]  So, was it necessary to vote against it twice, or was voting against it once, would that have been enough, had it...
[16:38.090 --> 16:44.190]  Well, had any of the votes... had any of the votes passed, it would have been sufficient, but none of them did, so...
[16:44.190 --> 16:44.190]  Ah.
[16:44.650 --> 16:44.910]  Okay.
[16:44.990 --> 16:47.870]  Well, just trying to point the finger and see who's guilty of what.
[16:47.970 --> 16:57.670]  Well, who's guilty is the people who voted to give these telecom companies immunity, which is every Republican Senator and a large number of Democrats.
[16:57.670 --> 16:59.350]  And John McCain showed up, and he voted for it.
[16:59.410 --> 17:02.230]  John McCain is one of the Republican senators in question, yes.
[17:02.230 --> 17:02.250]  All right.
[17:02.270 --> 17:09.750]  So, I guess if we're going to keep score of this, John McCain voted for it, Barack Obama voted against it once, and Hillary didn't vote against it either time.
[17:09.870 --> 17:11.110]  Is that the right way of saying it?
[17:11.250 --> 17:11.810]  I think that's right.
[17:11.870 --> 17:19.110]  Not that I understand why you had to vote against it twice in the same day, but then again... If you're really, really curious, you can go read thomas.loc.gov.
[17:19.230 --> 17:20.010]  It has all the details.
[17:20.370 --> 17:20.710]  All right.
[17:20.970 --> 17:22.050]  That's a good site, by the way.
[17:23.130 --> 17:23.450]  Okay.
[17:23.550 --> 17:26.250]  Well, here's something else kind of related to this.
[17:26.890 --> 17:36.110]  Speaking of politics and presidential candidates and things like that, we've been following the concept of net neutrality over the years.
[17:36.650 --> 17:40.490]  And how would you define net neutrality for the layman out there?
[17:40.690 --> 17:49.290]  Net neutrality is the notion which has been in existence since the very beginning of the internet, which is that the stuff in the middle of the internet shouldn't care what goes over it.
[17:49.430 --> 17:53.530]  Any two people who want to communicate with each other can do so on an equal basis.
[17:53.530 --> 17:54.390]  Okay.
[17:54.670 --> 18:02.330]  What we have, we have a soundbite from one of the presidential candidates speaking actually about net neutrality.
[18:02.470 --> 18:03.890]  They can actually say the words.
[18:04.070 --> 18:04.950]  I'm kind of surprised by this.
[18:04.970 --> 18:05.310]  Let's listen.
[18:09.350 --> 18:09.910]  Okay.
[18:09.950 --> 18:10.310]  I'm sorry.
[18:10.750 --> 18:12.230]  This was in the wrong position.
[18:12.410 --> 18:16.330]  Let's listen again to a presidential candidate speaking about net neutrality.
[18:20.400 --> 18:20.960]  Hello.
[18:21.300 --> 18:26.400]  This is Senator Barack Obama, and today is Thursday, June 8, 2006.
[18:27.400 --> 18:30.300]  The topic today is net neutrality.
[18:30.880 --> 18:38.400]  You know, the internet today is an open platform where demand for websites and services dictate success.
[18:39.220 --> 18:45.220]  You've got barriers to entry that are low and equal for all comers.
[18:45.360 --> 18:54.220]  And it's because the internet's a neutral platform that I can put on this podcast and transmit it over the internet without having to go through some corporate media middleman.
[18:54.460 --> 18:56.700]  I can say what I want without censorship.
[18:56.840 --> 18:59.060]  I don't have to pay a special charge.
[18:59.720 --> 19:04.460]  But the big telephone and cable companies want to change the internet as we know it.
[19:05.140 --> 19:15.080]  They say they want to create high-speed lanes on the internet and strike exclusive contractual arrangements with internet content providers for access to those high-speed lanes.
[19:15.700 --> 19:23.840]  Those of us who can't pony up the cash for these high-speed connections will be relegated to the slow lanes.
[19:25.140 --> 19:32.080]  Allowing the bells and cable companies to act as gatekeepers with control over internet access would make the internet like cable.
[19:32.300 --> 19:44.840]  A producer-driven market with barriers to entry for website creators and preferential treatment for specific sites based not on merit, the number of hits, but on relationships with the corporate gatekeeper.
[19:45.140 --> 19:55.840]  Now, if there were four or more competitive providers of broadband service to every home, then cable and telephone companies would not be able to create a bidding war for access to the high-speed lanes.
[19:55.980 --> 19:56.960]  But here's the problem.
[19:57.220 --> 20:03.740]  More than 99% of households get their broadband services from either cable or a telephone company.
[20:04.500 --> 20:05.680]  So here's my view.
[20:05.860 --> 20:11.380]  We can't have a situation in which the corporate duopoly dictates the future of the internet.
[20:11.600 --> 20:15.320]  And that's why I'm supporting what's called net neutrality.
[20:15.860 --> 20:22.920]  In the House, the Energy and Commerce Committee and the Judiciary Committee reach different conclusions on network neutrality.
[20:23.420 --> 20:29.700]  Judiciary Committee members voted to protect net neutrality, and commerce voted with the bells and cable.
[20:30.040 --> 20:32.240]  That debate is going to hit the House floor this Friday.
[20:32.560 --> 20:39.260]  In the Senate, Senators Snow and Dorgan are leading the fight for net neutrality, and I've joined in that effort.
[20:39.880 --> 20:44.820]  Senator Noye, the ranking Democrat on the Commerce Committee, has joined us in this effort as well.
[20:44.960 --> 20:50.480]  And he's working with Senator Stevens to put strong network neutrality into any Senate bill that comes before us.
[20:51.040 --> 21:00.100]  There's widespread support among consumer groups, leading academics, and the most innovative internet companies, including Google and Yahoo, in favor of net neutrality.
[21:00.300 --> 21:17.900]  And part of the reason for that is that companies like Google and Yahoo might never have gotten started had they not been in a position to easily access the internet and do so on the same terms as the big corporate companies that were interested in making money on the internet.
[21:18.440 --> 21:24.160]  I know if you're listening to this podcast that you're going to take an intense interest in this issue as well.
[21:24.480 --> 21:32.320]  Congress is going to need to hear your voice because the bell and cable companies are going to be dedicating millions of dollars to defeating network neutrality.
[21:32.600 --> 21:38.420]  So I'll keep you updated on this important issue, and I look forward to talking to you guys again next week.
[21:38.600 --> 21:39.140]  Bye-bye.
[21:39.580 --> 21:40.440]  You guys, wow.
[21:40.600 --> 21:45.300]  Okay, that's Barack Obama from about, I guess, what, two years ago or so, talking about net neutrality.
[21:46.320 --> 21:53.340]  And it's kind of interesting to hear a presidential candidate talking in terms of hits and duopolies and various things like that.
[21:53.480 --> 21:57.020]  Now, I tried to find a similar audio from either of the other two candidates.
[21:57.140 --> 22:02.980]  Of course, McCain isn't really going to say anything against this position or in favor of net neutrality, in other words.
[22:03.040 --> 22:05.940]  So the other two candidates, you know, maybe Huckabee has a position.
[22:05.940 --> 22:07.080]  Or Ron Paul, yeah, I'm sure.
[22:07.500 --> 22:19.900]  But Senator Hillary Clinton's campaign said on November 15th, her long silence on network neutrality should not be interpreted as waning support for the idea of mandating that broadband providers treat all network use in a non-discriminatory manner.
[22:20.340 --> 22:30.440]  Two weeks before announcing her presidential campaign last January, Clinton, along with Senator Barack Obama, signed on as original co-sponsors of legislation that would make network neutrality the law of the land.
[22:30.580 --> 22:36.800]  Since the campaign began, though, Clinton hasn't mentioned network neutrality, despite having issued a nine-point technology plan.
[22:36.940 --> 22:41.020]  In October, she announced an internet strategy, also without a reference to network neutrality.
[22:41.580 --> 22:46.500]  Hillary Clinton has been and continues to be a strong supporter of net neutrality, said a spokesperson for the campaign.
[22:47.460 --> 22:52.940]  Clinton's silence was the subject of a November 15th teleconference involving several top-ranking Obama campaign officials.
[22:53.060 --> 23:02.480]  The conference came the day after Obama told a large crowd at Google's California headquarters, I will take a backseat to no one in my commitment to network neutrality.
[23:02.720 --> 23:09.680]  And in October, this is interesting, Obama said he would appoint only pro-network neutrality federal communications commission officials.
[23:10.360 --> 23:14.860]  The organization moveon.org has pressed Clinton to officially commit to network neutrality.
[23:15.160 --> 23:22.040]  Although Hillary Clinton supported net neutrality legislation in the past, the internet agenda she unveiled recently did not mention the issue at all.
[23:22.180 --> 23:27.180]  Net neutrality opponents pointed to this as proof that she was backing away from her stance on this issue.
[23:27.680 --> 23:41.560]  Very interesting, and I think it's something that we should focus on, topics of interest to technically-minded people, net neutrality certainly being one of the leading positions, and seeing how people actually...
[23:41.560 --> 23:41.920]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[23:42.460 --> 23:55.880]  I found a source on the internet, a website called techcrunch.com, with quotes from various politicians and the presidential candidates on their stands on neutrality.
[23:56.360 --> 24:01.140]  And you said that obviously John McCain was not in favor of it, but I have an actual quote from John McCain here.
[24:01.240 --> 24:08.660]  It says, he says, we should let the market and technologies solve the net neutrality issue.
[24:08.760 --> 24:09.660]  And here's the actual quote.
[24:09.940 --> 24:15.400]  Quote, when you control the pipe, you should be able to get profit from your investment, end quote.
[24:15.620 --> 24:25.200]  And the obvious implication there is that it should not be right, that net neutrality should not be mandated by the government in John McCain's view.
[24:25.620 --> 24:28.700]  Yeah, no surprise there, as far as I can see.
[24:29.120 --> 24:30.700]  Mike Huckabee is in here as well.
[24:30.820 --> 24:31.420]  What does he have to say?
[24:31.680 --> 24:34.080]  He is in favor of net neutrality.
[24:34.140 --> 24:34.560]  Is he now?
[24:34.840 --> 24:40.020]  Yes, he said, quote, the internet is a highway, and we don't restrict highways to 18 wheelers.
[24:40.080 --> 24:40.860]  I thought it was a truck.
[24:41.760 --> 24:42.900]  Oh, it's not a big truck.
[24:42.900 --> 24:43.960]  Oh, I'm sorry, it's not a truck.
[24:44.160 --> 24:44.900]  It's not a big truck.
[24:44.900 --> 24:45.800]  All right, I'm all confused.
[24:46.860 --> 24:47.900]  I'll read the quote again.
[24:48.040 --> 24:53.760]  It says, Mike Huckabee says, the internet is a highway, and we don't restrict highways to 18 wheelers.
[24:53.860 --> 24:58.160]  If it's a car, an SUV, or a truck, you use the same highway.
[24:58.400 --> 25:00.220]  So that's Mike Huckabee's view.
[25:00.800 --> 25:02.040]  I don't know what that means.
[25:02.240 --> 25:07.160]  Well, there's trucks involved again, so we're going right back to the highway analogy.
[25:08.360 --> 25:08.820]  All right.
[25:08.820 --> 25:10.380]  I thought we got rid of the highway analogy.
[25:10.380 --> 25:12.220]  Yeah, but we're right back on it.
[25:12.640 --> 25:13.020]  All right.
[25:13.100 --> 25:21.640]  But we're also running out of time, so we need to move forward with other things that we have planned for this show, specifically raising funds, our phone number, 212-209-2950.
[25:21.880 --> 25:26.620]  Now, here's what we have to offer our listeners this hour.
[25:27.360 --> 25:32.380]  We have a bunch of really interesting things, and we have a big surprise that's coming up after this next bit.
[25:32.740 --> 25:38.240]  But for those of you that are interested in what we're about to read off now, now it's time to call.
[25:38.920 --> 25:44.060]  Everybody pledging 25 and above will get a 2600, or rather an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[25:44.300 --> 25:45.760]  Everybody pledging 25 and above.
[25:45.860 --> 25:49.900]  That means in addition to anything else that you might get, you're going to get that for pledging during this hour.
[25:50.500 --> 25:52.560]  Again, 212-209-2950.
[25:52.560 --> 26:01.380]  So if you pledge $40, $40, you will get two of our brand new Hacker coffee mugs.
[26:01.520 --> 26:04.360]  They're actually called DMCA mugs, Digital Millennium Coffee Act.
[26:04.860 --> 26:07.620]  And they are only designed to have coffee in them.
[26:07.780 --> 26:09.600]  No other liquid is allowed in these cups.
[26:10.040 --> 26:12.440]  The rules are clearly spelled out on the cups.
[26:12.600 --> 26:14.900]  You will get one black one with white writing.
[26:14.900 --> 26:16.740]  You'll get one white one with black writing.
[26:17.440 --> 26:18.940]  Yeah, just so that you're covered.
[26:19.640 --> 26:20.720]  That's for a pledge of $40.
[26:21.000 --> 26:22.760]  The two DMCA coffee mugs.
[26:23.000 --> 26:24.540]  212-209-2950.
[26:24.740 --> 26:31.680]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get the brand new 2600 sweatshirt.
[26:31.720 --> 26:33.460]  This is a new sweatshirt, not like our old ones.
[26:33.800 --> 26:36.400]  This one, in fact, not Kevin, you're sporting one right now.
[26:36.880 --> 26:37.760]  Hold that up to the microphone.
[26:38.580 --> 26:39.360]  How about that?
[26:39.500 --> 26:40.760]  You were wearing this last week, weren't you?
[26:41.200 --> 26:42.000]  No, I was not.
[26:42.300 --> 26:43.320]  You weren't wearing this last week?
[26:43.420 --> 26:44.760]  I was wearing the off-the-hook sweatshirt last week.
[26:44.940 --> 26:46.220]  Okay, there's only so many things you can wear.
[26:46.380 --> 26:46.620]  All right.
[26:47.000 --> 26:49.420]  This is, it's a gray sweatshirt, hooded sweatshirt.
[26:49.520 --> 26:52.880]  It's got a zipper in the front, big red letters that say 2600.
[26:53.520 --> 26:57.360]  And half of the 2600 is on one side of the zipper, half is on the other side.
[26:57.480 --> 27:04.220]  And on the back, turn around for us, on the back, yeah, look at that, is the word hacker in big letters.
[27:04.500 --> 27:05.860]  It can be spotted from a mile away.
[27:06.020 --> 27:14.600]  So if you want to be the hacker on campus or the hacker in your particular community, and that doesn't scare you to be labeled as such, this is the sweatshirt for you.
[27:14.660 --> 27:23.960]  For a pledge of $75, 212-209-2950, we will send you one of those in the size that you designate as our thanks, in addition to the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[27:24.140 --> 27:25.540]  So it's a good deal.
[27:26.000 --> 27:32.900]  And our other level here at this point is the off-the-hook lifetime audio subscription.
[27:32.980 --> 27:39.000]  Now, what that is, that gives you every single show that we have ever done on a DVD.
[27:39.000 --> 27:42.660]  And this DVD can be read by your computer or even your DVD player.
[27:43.100 --> 27:46.220]  And what you'll find are a whole bunch of MP3s there.
[27:46.340 --> 27:48.360]  You can copy the MP3s, do whatever you wish with them.
[27:48.640 --> 27:52.940]  They're all broadcast quality, not like what you hear on the internet, not what we have on our website.
[27:53.100 --> 28:02.340]  These are as good as they sound on the radio, oftentimes directly from a CD, in our earlier days from the cassette that we taped off of.
[28:02.340 --> 28:06.480]  And if you have a shortwave radio, then these CDs will sound much, much better than that.
[28:06.520 --> 28:07.340]  Well, that's true too.
[28:09.740 --> 28:12.520]  212-209-2950 for a pledge of $125.
[28:12.820 --> 28:17.900]  You'll get every single one of our shows starting in 1988, if you can believe that, 20 years ago.
[28:18.540 --> 28:19.980]  And it doesn't end there.
[28:20.120 --> 28:21.600]  It goes to the other end of the spectrum.
[28:21.700 --> 28:28.140]  You'll get every single show until we stop doing the show or until you stop receiving mail from us, until you give us a cease and desist order.
[28:28.860 --> 28:30.300]  That's for a pledge of $125.
[28:30.420 --> 28:33.200]  So you have four pledge levels there.
[28:33.320 --> 28:34.840]  25 to 125.
[28:35.700 --> 28:37.380]  212-209-2950.
[28:37.520 --> 28:38.880]  We have two phone calls on the line.
[28:39.040 --> 28:40.400]  It's a good deal.
[28:40.560 --> 28:41.540]  It's a great deal, in fact.
[28:42.000 --> 28:45.300]  I'd be tempted to do this myself if I didn't already have all of this.
[28:45.380 --> 28:48.620]  But the important thing is that you're supporting the radio station.
[28:48.800 --> 28:49.980]  You're supporting the radio station.
[28:50.040 --> 28:53.420]  You're keeping this non-commercial bastion of free speech going.
[28:54.280 --> 28:59.060]  And we've been broadcasting since 1960 on the top of the Empire State Building to four states.
[28:59.180 --> 29:00.560]  Now we broadcast on the internet.
[29:00.800 --> 29:01.560]  It's incredible.
[29:01.780 --> 29:08.880]  It's incredible to see how this place grows and how the interest just keeps coming in years and years after we've begun this project.
[29:09.520 --> 29:11.140]  212-209-2950.
[29:11.200 --> 29:12.460]  We have three calls on the line.
[29:12.560 --> 29:13.400]  Let's see if we can make that five.
[29:13.480 --> 29:14.760]  I think there are five volunteers down there.
[29:14.940 --> 29:17.420]  In fact, sometimes when things get busy, we have to run down ourselves.
[29:17.620 --> 29:20.620]  And you might even hear dead air as I run down and leave the microphone open.
[29:20.980 --> 29:23.020]  212-209-2950.
[29:23.240 --> 29:31.380]  What we're going to do in about a minute is go back in time and play a clip from one of the old off-the-hook radio shows.
[29:31.940 --> 29:33.200]  We have four calls on the line.
[29:33.420 --> 29:35.360]  One more person can make five calls.
[29:35.940 --> 29:37.020]  Yeah, that's how our arithmetic works.
[29:37.140 --> 29:40.340]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[29:40.960 --> 29:43.500]  We take pledges from all over the world now.
[29:43.640 --> 29:45.020]  It used to be when we started.
[29:45.180 --> 29:45.940]  There's that fifth call.
[29:46.200 --> 29:46.440]  Great.
[29:46.760 --> 29:47.740]  You think I'm going to stop there?
[29:47.820 --> 29:49.380]  No, let's make it six, seven, eight.
[29:49.580 --> 29:51.660]  We have all kinds of cool things here.
[29:51.880 --> 29:52.600]  It's unbelievable.
[29:52.820 --> 29:57.460]  Coffee mugs, new sweatshirts, off-the-hook lifetime audio, t-shirts.
[29:57.700 --> 29:58.420]  It's all there.
[29:58.520 --> 30:02.380]  And in addition to that, in addition to that, you can get other things from WBAI.
[30:02.460 --> 30:08.940]  We have all sorts of premiums here to say thank you for pledging to this radio station and keeping us going.
[30:09.040 --> 30:13.180]  Since 1960, the voice of alternative radio here in New York City.
[30:13.200 --> 30:15.420]  It's simply magical and amazing.
[30:16.520 --> 30:18.300]  212-209-2950.
[30:18.460 --> 30:20.400]  That's our phone show.
[30:20.400 --> 30:22.660]  We're going to play something from the past.
[30:22.820 --> 30:25.100]  We're going to go back to one of our historic shows.
[30:25.500 --> 30:27.560]  In fact, all of our shows are historic one way or another.
[30:27.920 --> 30:30.420]  It's always something that happens that people remember and talk about.
[30:30.500 --> 30:31.120]  We get mail.
[30:31.280 --> 30:37.300]  We get mail to OTH at 2600.com from people who have just heard a show from 10 years ago and they're commenting on it.
[30:37.380 --> 30:39.700]  They say, hey, what was that music you played at the end of this show?
[30:39.820 --> 30:43.920]  Or I disagree with what you said on March 12th, 1987.
[30:44.180 --> 30:45.080]  Well, we weren't on then.
[30:45.220 --> 30:46.060]  But you know what I mean.
[30:46.280 --> 30:50.320]  They listen to it and it's as vital and interesting as the day it aired.
[30:50.580 --> 30:51.520]  Maybe even more so.
[30:52.060 --> 30:54.300]  Especially if you listen to the pre-9-11 show.
[30:54.420 --> 30:56.900]  It's very interesting how we were predicting all sorts of things.
[30:57.520 --> 30:57.740]  All right.
[30:57.800 --> 30:59.460]  This is a pre-9-11 clip.
[30:59.680 --> 31:02.900]  This actually is the very beginning of a show from 1995.
[31:03.220 --> 31:04.960]  February 15th, 1995.
[31:05.320 --> 31:06.100]  Red Letter Day.
[31:06.300 --> 31:11.020]  That was the day that Kevin Mitnick was captured in North Carolina.
[31:11.660 --> 31:13.360]  And we were the first place.
[31:13.460 --> 31:15.260]  We were the first place anywhere to report this.
[31:15.260 --> 31:16.820]  We beat everybody on this story.
[31:16.960 --> 31:19.180]  The New York Times came out the next day with the story.
[31:19.680 --> 31:25.660]  But we had found out about it because obviously we were on top of the situation and talking to people involved in the story.
[31:26.120 --> 31:33.220]  So what you're going to hear is a little bit of our reaction, some back and forth with some of the people in the studio.
[31:33.900 --> 31:39.220]  Again, call us while this clip is playing and you'll get everything for a pledge of $125.
[31:39.760 --> 31:46.520]  Or for a pledge of $25, you'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt for a pledge of $40, the coffee mugs for a pledge of $75, the hacker sweatshirt.
[31:46.640 --> 31:47.220]  It's all up to you.
[31:47.340 --> 31:49.360]  212-209-2950.
[31:49.540 --> 31:52.940]  Let's go back in time to February 15th, 1995.
[31:56.400 --> 31:57.780]  And a good evening, everybody.
[31:58.100 --> 32:13.700]  This is Off the Hook, the program that deals with the dreaded term of cyberspace and all kinds of other fun things going on in the net community, the telephone world, the hacker world, the big brother Orwellian future that lies ahead for all of us.
[32:15.400 --> 32:22.380]  And tonight we have some rather sad news in the world of cyberspace, as it were, in the world of hackers.
[32:23.560 --> 32:29.200]  This is something that has not yet gone out over the wires because I don't think the wires know about it yet.
[32:29.460 --> 32:31.800]  But after tonight, they will.
[32:32.860 --> 32:35.000]  Early this morning, Kevin Mitnick was apprehended.
[32:35.200 --> 32:39.320]  Kevin Mitnick being the hacker who was on the run for at least a year.
[32:39.880 --> 32:48.600]  And this happened as a result, starting with a parole violation, probation violation last year.
[32:48.760 --> 33:11.880]  If you recall, we had a show focusing on what happened in Chicago at a convention called Computers, Freedom and Privacy, and Privacy, where the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigated three wrong people, including a former CIA operative, thinking that they were on the trail of both Kevin Mitnick and Agent Steele,
[33:12.480 --> 33:25.000]  Justin Peterson, who was someone working for the FBI at one point who was trying to entrap hackers and then went on the run himself and was committing all kinds of crimes.
[33:25.000 --> 33:29.600]  They caught up with Agent Steele not too long after that.
[33:29.980 --> 33:42.360]  But Kevin Mitnick always remained one step ahead, sometimes two steps ahead, up until this morning when he was apprehended in, from what I hear, North Carolina, our favorite state.
[33:44.180 --> 33:47.080]  And that's really all we know right now.
[33:47.280 --> 33:50.960]  We know this happened at about, uh, I think three in the morning our time.
[33:52.660 --> 33:58.940]  And what's funny about all this is that I just talked to him only a couple of days ago.
[33:59.020 --> 34:06.760]  Actually, I was talking to him fairly recently before, before he actually got, uh, apprehended.
[34:07.960 --> 34:16.780]  And it's, uh, it's kind of a sad thing when you're talking to somebody that's on the run like that, because, you know, there are so many things that they want to do that it, that it just can't do.
[34:17.300 --> 34:19.000]  Uh, they can't hang out publicly.
[34:19.200 --> 34:25.020]  They can't, uh, go to meetings or see anybody that they might be expected to see.
[34:25.080 --> 34:28.960]  They pretty much have to live a rented car, motel, fast food life.
[34:29.120 --> 34:30.780]  And that's sort of what Kevin was doing.
[34:31.620 --> 34:33.360]  I never asked him where he was.
[34:33.720 --> 34:34.780]  I didn't want to know.
[34:35.740 --> 34:40.100]  I only hoped deep down within me that, uh, he had left the country.
[34:41.700 --> 34:42.580]  Obviously he didn't.
[34:43.380 --> 34:51.340]  I know a few weeks ago, uh, a couple of weeks ago, there was a very close call in Seattle where he almost got picked up.
[34:51.440 --> 34:55.240]  And I think, uh, he somehow found out about it a half hour afterwards.
[34:55.240 --> 34:57.460]  He, he basically missed them by about a half hour.
[34:58.100 --> 34:59.720]  And they were very frustrated by that.
[35:00.460 --> 35:06.200]  And one thing I tried to, uh, I tried to tell Kevin was that these people are very, very good at what they do.
[35:07.140 --> 35:08.440]  And you have to keep that in mind.
[35:09.120 --> 35:11.500]  Somehow, they're able to find people.
[35:11.720 --> 35:15.680]  If they grow facial hair or get a nose job or something.
[35:15.800 --> 35:21.880]  If, if you get your picture in the paper on America's Most Wanted, they somehow figure out that it's you anyway.
[35:22.440 --> 35:22.920]  You know?
[35:23.320 --> 35:25.940]  When's the last time you heard of the FBI not finding somebody?
[35:25.940 --> 35:30.140]  Well, there was Abby Hoffman, of course, but I think he was the only person that was able to do it and pull it off successfully.
[35:30.140 --> 35:33.780]  Everybody, especially today, with cameras all over the place.
[35:34.400 --> 35:34.800]  You know?
[35:34.880 --> 35:36.040]  You never know when you're being looked at.
[35:37.060 --> 35:41.180]  Actually, you never know when you're not being looked at these days because most of the time you're being looked at somewhere.
[35:42.840 --> 35:49.340]  And that's the kind of world that, uh, Kevin Mitnick had to live in and not be recognized.
[35:49.620 --> 35:51.160]  It could only last for so long.
[35:51.720 --> 35:53.920]  I think we all knew it was going to end at some point.
[35:53.920 --> 36:02.880]  And I had this gut feeling that it was going to be soon because it just seemed like things were reaching a crescendo.
[36:04.440 --> 36:08.060]  And when you're on the run for so long, you kind of get sloppy after a while.
[36:08.260 --> 36:15.480]  You kind of don't think to, uh, cover your trail quite as, uh, quite as neatly.
[36:16.420 --> 36:20.000]  And I was worried that he was, that he was calling and that, uh, I was talking to him.
[36:20.120 --> 36:22.680]  You know, if my phone was tapped, maybe they could, uh, do a trace.
[36:22.680 --> 36:24.760]  If he was talking to me, maybe he was talking to other people.
[36:26.560 --> 36:30.680]  It was, uh, rather sad to, uh, to think of it in that way.
[36:31.640 --> 36:33.980]  Now, you might ask, well, this guy is a criminal.
[36:34.220 --> 36:38.120]  You know, how can you, how can you talk to someone like that?
[36:38.200 --> 36:39.400]  How can you harbor a fugitive?
[36:39.540 --> 36:40.820]  Well, of course, that's nonsense.
[36:42.240 --> 36:45.780]  Kevin is as much a criminal as, as any of us, I think.
[36:46.220 --> 36:47.960]  Basically, his crime is knowledge.
[36:47.960 --> 36:50.460]  And I think that's something that really, really frightens people.
[36:50.920 --> 36:56.020]  And it certainly frightens governments, agencies, people in power.
[36:56.500 --> 37:03.600]  Because here's a guy that can do virtually anything on a network involving computers, involving the phone system.
[37:04.780 --> 37:06.240]  Admittedly, he's very good at what he does.
[37:06.400 --> 37:07.980]  Admittedly, he's very good at getting information.
[37:09.940 --> 37:12.880]  And, that makes people in high places very, very nervous.
[37:13.480 --> 37:14.800]  No question about that.
[37:16.440 --> 37:20.020]  But, is the guy, a criminal, worthy of being locked up?
[37:20.700 --> 37:21.820]  I don't think so.
[37:22.620 --> 37:33.600]  And, when you think of what is in store for him, you really, really have to wonder if playing by the rules makes any sense at all these days.
[37:35.640 --> 37:37.380]  Now, let me bring up another story.
[37:37.660 --> 37:38.880]  The story of Kevin Paulson.
[37:39.300 --> 37:43.400]  Kevin Paulson is this other former hacker from years ago.
[37:43.420 --> 37:48.240]  And, unfortunately, we're not going to have time to get into the whole Kevin Paulson story because that's a whole other kettle of fish.
[37:48.300 --> 37:50.000]  We might come back to this in a couple of minutes.
[37:50.140 --> 37:53.580]  But, that's an excerpt from February 15, 1995.
[37:54.060 --> 37:57.600]  The day Kevin Mitnick was captured in Raleigh, North Carolina.
[37:57.600 --> 38:01.060]  I hope nobody out there was under the impression that Kevin Mitnick got captured again.
[38:01.060 --> 38:03.140]  And, was, no, that has not happened.
[38:03.400 --> 38:04.000]  He's fine.
[38:04.900 --> 38:08.160]  But, this just goes to show you how relevant these things are.
[38:08.280 --> 38:10.200]  Some of the things we were talking about back then.
[38:11.200 --> 38:12.360]  Talking about surveillance.
[38:13.660 --> 38:15.860]  And, the ominous things ahead.
[38:16.000 --> 38:16.840]  A lot of it happened.
[38:17.000 --> 38:18.380]  And, what Kevin was facing.
[38:19.280 --> 38:21.100]  1995, he didn't get out of prison until 2000.
[38:21.400 --> 38:23.900]  And, then he was on supervised release for another three years after that.
[38:24.000 --> 38:25.360]  So, yeah, it was the beginning of a nightmare.
[38:25.540 --> 38:26.800]  We knew that back then.
[38:27.200 --> 38:32.020]  Now, this is part of a package we're offering for people who pledged $125.
[38:32.300 --> 38:34.280]  You'll get every single show we've ever done.
[38:34.380 --> 38:35.360]  And, that's the way it's going to sound.
[38:35.760 --> 38:38.380]  It's going to sound as good as it sounded when it went over the air.
[38:39.100 --> 38:41.080]  You'll get every single show from 1988.
[38:41.480 --> 38:43.920]  And, you'll get every single show into the future.
[38:44.100 --> 38:48.760]  Once a year, you'll get a DVD sent to you with the previous year's shows.
[38:48.960 --> 38:52.900]  As the people who are lifetime members already are getting last year's show.
[38:52.900 --> 38:56.800]  Now, 212-209-2950, that's all it takes.
[38:56.900 --> 38:57.560]  Call that number.
[38:57.640 --> 38:58.460]  We take Visa.
[38:58.620 --> 38:59.600]  We take MasterCard.
[38:59.700 --> 39:00.700]  We take American Express.
[39:01.000 --> 39:01.900]  I think we even take Discover.
[39:02.280 --> 39:04.040]  I don't think we take Diner's Club, though.
[39:04.140 --> 39:04.620]  We don't take...
[39:04.620 --> 39:05.600]  Who has Diner's Club?
[39:05.640 --> 39:06.620]  I don't know.
[39:07.600 --> 39:09.220]  We have three calls on the line.
[39:09.360 --> 39:10.720]  We did really well last week.
[39:10.880 --> 39:14.040]  It wasn't reflected on the air because I think there was a tally delay.
[39:14.160 --> 39:15.440]  It takes a while to add things up.
[39:15.480 --> 39:16.660]  But, we made over $1,500.
[39:17.020 --> 39:19.420]  That's not even including that weird check that we got in the mail.
[39:19.960 --> 39:22.240]  And, I'm hoping that we can best that this week.
[39:22.240 --> 39:23.380]  We're not on next week.
[39:23.560 --> 39:24.160]  We're not on next week.
[39:24.180 --> 39:29.920]  So, we really need to do well and show the folks here that, yes, off-the-hook listeners are listening.
[39:29.920 --> 39:33.440]  And they count and they care about this place.
[39:33.440 --> 39:37.360]  And we want to show that we care about you by giving you things in return.
[39:37.360 --> 39:39.860]  Giving you as many things as we possibly can.
[39:39.880 --> 39:41.680]  These are all donations from 2600.
[39:42.060 --> 39:44.200]  The lifetime audio subscription for $125.
[39:45.040 --> 39:49.460]  All sorts of audio from the last 20 years on into the future.
[39:50.160 --> 39:53.000]  Anybody pledging 25 and above gets an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[39:53.500 --> 39:56.480]  For $40, you'll get the Hacker Coffee mugs.
[39:56.540 --> 39:57.140]  You'll get two of them.
[39:57.220 --> 39:58.080]  One black, one white.
[39:58.340 --> 40:02.420]  And for $75, the brand-new 2600 hooded sweatshirt.
[40:02.580 --> 40:03.340]  Gray in color.
[40:03.520 --> 40:04.880]  And a zipper in the front.
[40:05.020 --> 40:06.160]  The word Hacker in the back.
[40:06.480 --> 40:08.140]  It's all a lot of fun.
[40:08.220 --> 40:09.120]  And it's all amazing.
[40:09.340 --> 40:11.320]  And it's all made possible.
[40:11.320 --> 40:15.060]  Because people support us in one way or another.
[40:15.580 --> 40:17.080]  212-209-2950.
[40:17.080 --> 40:18.680]  We have two calls on the line right now.
[40:18.960 --> 40:20.740]  We'd like to bring that number back up.
[40:20.820 --> 40:23.980]  We have volunteers down in the tally room taking your phone call.
[40:24.320 --> 40:25.780]  212-209-2950.
[40:26.340 --> 40:27.940]  You guys in the studio...
[40:27.940 --> 40:29.100]  Bernie, I know where you were at the time.
[40:29.200 --> 40:32.580]  But in the studio, where were you on February 15, 1995?
[40:34.680 --> 40:36.360]  I don't expect a real answer.
[40:36.480 --> 40:37.140]  I expect to...
[40:37.140 --> 40:38.160]  Were you in diapers?
[40:38.420 --> 40:38.860]  Or were you...
[40:38.860 --> 40:40.940]  I think I was in 8th grade.
[40:41.140 --> 40:41.760]  8th grade, okay.
[40:42.280 --> 40:44.800]  Were you even aware of Kevin Mitnick or...
[40:44.800 --> 40:45.680]  I don't think so.
[40:45.900 --> 40:46.180]  All right.
[40:46.380 --> 40:47.620]  How about you, not Kevin?
[40:47.740 --> 40:48.820]  I have no idea.
[40:48.940 --> 40:49.300]  No idea.
[40:49.480 --> 40:49.660]  Okay.
[40:50.120 --> 40:51.080]  We can find out.
[40:51.460 --> 40:56.740]  And Bernie, now this was obviously pretty soon before your troubles began in 1995.
[40:56.740 --> 40:57.820]  That's a whole other saga.
[40:58.340 --> 41:01.520]  But I imagine in February 1995, you were still a free man.
[41:01.920 --> 41:02.600]  I was.
[41:02.700 --> 41:06.020]  In fact, I was following the Kevin Mitnick story and apprehension.
[41:06.020 --> 41:17.520]  And I remember that a couple days later, at his arrangement, there was a bogus news story floating around the Internet that he had escaped the clutches of the FBI.
[41:17.520 --> 41:18.500]  And that was...
[41:18.500 --> 41:19.640]  A lot of people believe that.
[41:19.800 --> 41:37.920]  And it was exactly 30 days later that I happened to have been arrested at the gunpoint, six gunpoints, precisely, by the United States Secret Service, and what later turned out to be about a 14-month ordeal through five maximum security prisons.
[41:38.160 --> 41:42.420]  And all of that, all of that is documented on the radio.
[41:43.120 --> 41:44.780]  Bernie would call us from the prison.
[41:44.960 --> 41:46.260]  You'd hear the collect calls.
[41:46.380 --> 41:48.860]  You'd hear this week by week how the situation changed.
[41:48.860 --> 41:53.040]  Now, I've been going through the magazine, 2600 magazine, in the 1990s.
[41:53.120 --> 42:00.460]  And I realized that that period of time, 1994, 1995, all kinds of things were going on, all kinds of crackdowns.
[42:00.640 --> 42:05.580]  And fiber optic was put away, Kevin Mitnick, Bernie.
[42:05.940 --> 42:06.960]  It just...
[42:06.960 --> 42:08.280]  It was a scary time.
[42:09.740 --> 42:10.360]  All right.
[42:10.720 --> 42:18.720]  Let's take a listen to a little bit more of the clip that we were playing from February 15th, 1995, because I think fiber is making an appearance.
[42:18.980 --> 42:20.760]  No, it doesn't surprise me at all.
[42:20.980 --> 42:28.880]  The sorriest thing is that at no point in time did Kevin Mitnick attempt to make any kind of statement.
[42:29.340 --> 42:43.000]  Because of that fact, he kind of put himself in a really bad position to be demonized by authors and journalists who kind of just made up all kinds of cockamamie stories about him, about things that he allegedly did.
[42:45.120 --> 42:54.120]  And either they made it up as they went along, or they took the word of law enforcement officials who, in my opinion, are just going to make up anything that they want to.
[42:54.620 --> 43:00.060]  Anything that remains unsolved could now be the fault of Kevin Mitnick.
[43:00.320 --> 43:00.580]  Absolutely.
[43:00.580 --> 43:03.040]  Simply because he's on the run, he could have did it.
[43:03.180 --> 43:04.400]  He could have done it, rather.
[43:04.680 --> 43:04.860]  Right.
[43:05.060 --> 43:07.820]  And he had a really good sense of humor, though.
[43:07.900 --> 43:12.900]  I mean, I was talking to him about just that, you know, about the fact that he gets blamed for everything.
[43:13.260 --> 43:16.520]  And, you know, he said, yeah, you know, I should take responsibility for world hunger while I'm at it.
[43:17.420 --> 43:21.140]  You know, I asked him if he ever wanted to say anything on the radio.
[43:21.300 --> 43:25.380]  And, you know, I think he was closer to doing that now than he was ever before.
[43:25.600 --> 43:27.300]  I guess he's kind of shy or something.
[43:27.500 --> 43:31.820]  He just didn't see himself as, I don't know, maybe even worthy of doing it.
[43:32.260 --> 43:33.340]  But he certainly was.
[43:33.960 --> 43:38.840]  And I guess the one thing that he conveyed that he said he just wanted people to know is that he's innocent.
[43:38.840 --> 43:39.840]  He didn't do these things.
[43:40.260 --> 43:42.460]  He's, you know, he's totally misunderstood.
[43:43.360 --> 43:50.420]  You know, and even if he did do everything they said he did, the kinds of penalties we're looking at are crazy.
[43:50.420 --> 43:58.040]  Even if Kevin Paulson did all the things that they said he did, I think four years in prison more than overstates the case.
[43:58.960 --> 44:00.840]  But not for the prosecutors.
[44:00.840 --> 44:02.100]  They want more than that.
[44:02.240 --> 44:03.020]  A lot more than that.
[44:03.680 --> 44:04.600]  How are we going to react?
[44:04.620 --> 44:05.220]  What are we going to do?
[44:05.300 --> 44:05.840]  What are we going to say?
[44:05.840 --> 44:06.680]  Who are we going to talk to?
[44:08.000 --> 44:12.560]  Well, you've got to talk to your elected representatives because they have a lot of power.
[44:12.700 --> 44:14.940]  And when they get things wrong, they really screw things up.
[44:15.160 --> 44:17.600]  Case in point, this guy, Senator Jim...
[44:17.600 --> 44:18.580]  How do you say it?
[44:18.780 --> 44:19.180]  Exxon?
[44:19.360 --> 44:19.760]  Exxon?
[44:20.320 --> 44:20.720]  Exxon.
[44:20.980 --> 44:21.380]  Moron?
[44:21.660 --> 44:22.060]  Exxon.
[44:22.220 --> 44:22.720]  I don't know.
[44:23.800 --> 44:29.460]  And he's a Democrat, too, which simply adds fuel to the fire that Democrats and Republicans pretty much are cast of the same mold.
[44:30.240 --> 44:33.920]  And they just land on different sides of their head, I think, when they come out.
[44:34.300 --> 44:35.400]  But that's the only difference.
[44:35.400 --> 44:36.980]  Just bear in mind, he is from Nebraska.
[44:37.800 --> 44:38.960]  Is that supposed to be good or bad?
[44:39.220 --> 44:40.480]  I think that's bad.
[44:40.660 --> 44:44.460]  It's good for us in that he's far away, but it's bad in that he has control over...
[44:44.460 --> 44:45.840]  Yeah, he has this far-reaching control.
[44:46.020 --> 44:48.660]  Yeah, and he can make ridiculous laws.
[44:49.080 --> 44:51.480]  I'll read you what I have here, and then you can read what you have there.
[44:52.420 --> 44:53.960]  But we're not going to have time for any of that.
[44:54.100 --> 44:56.700]  That's a clip from the February 15, 1995 show.
[44:56.720 --> 45:01.160]  Just one of many, many programs that we're offering here tonight for a pledge of $125.
[45:01.500 --> 45:05.140]  You'll get all the shows in broadcast quality, all the shows in the future.
[45:05.260 --> 45:07.080]  212-209-2950.
[45:07.240 --> 45:08.560]  Please make those phones ring now.
[45:08.680 --> 45:10.260]  We have three calls on the line.
[45:10.620 --> 45:12.040]  Let's bring in a whole lot.
[45:12.160 --> 45:16.720]  We have joining us on the phone from California, our good friend Mitch Altman.
[45:16.820 --> 45:17.360]  Mitch, are you there?
[45:17.680 --> 45:18.300]  I'm here.
[45:18.820 --> 45:21.120]  Well, you've been causing all kinds of trouble, as always.
[45:21.940 --> 45:26.240]  And I understand that the TV Begons are more popular than ever?
[45:26.900 --> 45:31.380]  Yeah, they seem to have quite a surge in recent weeks.
[45:31.600 --> 45:31.900]  Uh-huh.
[45:32.920 --> 45:36.480]  In no small part due to the antics that took place in Las Vegas.
[45:37.360 --> 45:43.060]  Since we're running short on time, and this is going to cut to the chase right now and let people know what we're offering, then you can tell us a couple of stories.
[45:43.260 --> 45:48.800]  But basically, Mitch has been kind enough to donate once again his amazing keychain TV Begons.
[45:48.900 --> 45:51.880]  These will turn off TVs all over the place.
[45:52.540 --> 45:57.980]  Basically, we use them in restaurants to startle people in their homes and have all kinds of other fun.
[45:58.720 --> 46:01.420]  And the range of these things is... what would you say the range is?
[46:02.000 --> 46:06.940]  Oh, 10 to 15 meters, depending on the TV and the angle you're at, whether you're going through glass, things like that.
[46:06.940 --> 46:14.580]  Okay, so for a pledge of $50, 5-0, you'll get one of these magical devices along with the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[46:15.640 --> 46:20.120]  But, but, we have something else, which is a most incredible offer.
[46:20.740 --> 46:23.160]  And this is something that does not yet...
[46:23.780 --> 46:25.960]  It's not yet in anybody's possession, except Mitch.
[46:26.060 --> 46:27.100]  Mitch, you have one of these things.
[46:27.460 --> 46:29.680]  I'm calling it the Super TV Begone.
[46:29.780 --> 46:33.060]  You're calling it the TV Begone Pro, which I guess is more of a corporate type of a name.
[46:33.860 --> 46:34.260]  But...
[46:34.260 --> 46:35.420]  Well, it is for professionals.
[46:35.420 --> 46:36.760]  Yeah, it is for professionals.
[46:37.180 --> 46:39.280]  Amateurs should not try to handle this kind of a thing.
[46:39.360 --> 46:40.960]  But this is a Super TV Begone.
[46:41.220 --> 46:42.740]  We only have one.
[46:42.940 --> 46:46.000]  We are only offering this to somebody who will use a credit card.
[46:46.140 --> 46:46.960]  Use their credit card, please.
[46:47.300 --> 46:51.580]  And call us at 212-209-2950 for a pledge of $250.
[46:52.900 --> 46:53.300]  $250.
[46:54.180 --> 46:58.680]  You will get a Super TV Begone or a TV Begone Pro, whatever you want to call it.
[46:59.060 --> 47:01.180]  And the range on this, Mitch, is what?
[47:01.760 --> 47:04.020]  Oh, under ideal conditions, 100 meters.
[47:04.520 --> 47:05.380]  That's the football.
[47:06.640 --> 47:07.520]  100 meters.
[47:07.860 --> 47:12.560]  Can you even see a television from 100 meters away to know that it has, in fact, turned off?
[47:12.700 --> 47:13.960]  It is for professionals.
[47:14.440 --> 47:14.860]  I see.
[47:16.420 --> 47:17.620]  This is unbelievable.
[47:17.620 --> 47:19.960]  I mean, you could turn off TV sets.
[47:20.720 --> 47:23.860]  We were experimenting with this on the bus, actually, last time you were in town.
[47:24.060 --> 47:26.460]  And we were on the bus going uptown.
[47:26.600 --> 47:29.160]  We were turning off TV sets in bars as we passed.
[47:29.400 --> 47:30.000]  Drive-bys.
[47:30.000 --> 47:31.380]  Yeah, drive-bys, we called them.
[47:31.580 --> 47:32.580]  It was unbelievable.
[47:32.800 --> 47:34.120]  But again, we only have one of these.
[47:34.240 --> 47:34.960]  We only have one.
[47:35.140 --> 47:37.800]  And there is only one other in existence at the moment.
[47:37.840 --> 47:38.900]  And that's in your possession, right?
[47:39.320 --> 47:40.120]  Yes, this is true.
[47:40.240 --> 47:42.060]  I'm working on making them available.
[47:42.060 --> 47:44.680]  But at the moment, there is only one in the world.
[47:44.680 --> 47:48.480]  So, 212-209-2950, you got a call right now.
[47:48.580 --> 47:50.160]  This is going to be gone very soon.
[47:50.320 --> 47:56.720]  A pledge of $250, you'll get the massive mega TV Be Gone 100-meter range.
[47:56.960 --> 48:03.480]  Credit cards only because, well, we have to be sure that the pledge actually went through so that we can not offer it to anybody else.
[48:03.600 --> 48:04.700]  We only have one.
[48:05.120 --> 48:12.140]  212-209-2950, $250 pledge for the TV Be Gone Pro range of 100 meters.
[48:12.140 --> 48:20.180]  Now, for those of you that are content with turning off TVs that you can see right in front of you, the regular TV Be Gone on a keychain will do just fine.
[48:20.480 --> 48:23.040]  And that pledge level is $50, 5-0.
[48:23.320 --> 48:28.700]  For each of these, of course, you'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt as our thank you for helping us out.
[48:29.040 --> 48:36.780]  Now, Mitch, I understand that you were wandering around the streets of Paris and you had some media following you as you were causing mischief and mayhem, right?
[48:37.060 --> 48:38.500]  Actually, we were causing peace.
[48:38.500 --> 48:40.380]  But they were following us.
[48:40.780 --> 48:55.780]  The largest network in France, Canal Plus, had a whole bunch of videographers following us around, media activists and hackers, as we turned off TVs all over Paris.
[48:56.000 --> 49:02.600]  There's a large store there, a department store called Snack, F-N-A-C in English.
[49:02.600 --> 49:06.840]  And it's sort of like a Best Buy kind of a place.
[49:07.140 --> 49:09.720]  And there were walls of televisions.
[49:10.200 --> 49:16.060]  And we had TV Be Gone kits, which can turn off TVs from quite a large range.
[49:16.560 --> 49:18.540]  And I had one in my hat.
[49:18.540 --> 49:20.100]  I would just sort of scratch my hat.
[49:20.200 --> 49:33.180]  And this woman with a video camera in her glasses, part of Canal Plus, the TV network, she would, I just sort of nod to her and she would watch what was going on and get it all in video.
[49:33.980 --> 49:39.260]  We saw a bunch of employees scrambling around trying to figure out what's going on.
[49:39.360 --> 49:44.920]  We just sort of huddled together and pointed and laughed like a whole bunch of other little groups of people.
[49:45.700 --> 49:55.040]  Going into a cafe afterwards to look at the footage, which turned out really well, there was a huge screen TV that I turned off.
[49:55.200 --> 49:58.540]  And interestingly, not even the people I was with noticed when I turned it off.
[49:58.800 --> 50:01.480]  But a few minutes later, the person behind the bar noticed.
[50:03.480 --> 50:06.820]  And so he turned it on and I turned it off.
[50:06.920 --> 50:09.220]  And he turned it on and I turned it off.
[50:09.320 --> 50:10.980]  And he turned it on and I turned it off.
[50:11.060 --> 50:12.120]  And then he calls the manager.
[50:12.500 --> 50:16.300]  There's like 20 people in this cafe, this pub.
[50:16.680 --> 50:18.640]  And he's ignoring all of us.
[50:18.800 --> 50:21.700]  It's much more important, evidently, to keep that TV on.
[50:22.240 --> 50:31.240]  So the manager comes over, grabs the remote from him like he's an idiot, turns the TV back on, and looks at him and sort of like triumph or something, like you fool.
[50:31.500 --> 50:33.220]  And of course, I turn it right off.
[50:33.460 --> 50:36.900]  Meanwhile, the woman with the glasses with the video camera is getting all of this.
[50:37.040 --> 50:37.480]  Oh, wow.
[50:37.620 --> 50:39.780]  And they don't know why we're laughing.
[50:39.780 --> 50:43.520]  They're paying much more attention to the big screen TV.
[50:44.600 --> 50:47.540]  They thought we were laughing at whatever we were viewing on our little screen.
[50:48.440 --> 50:51.080]  And so you were able to clear out the cash register during the diversion, right?
[50:51.080 --> 50:52.480]  We could have.
[50:52.780 --> 50:56.060]  They were so intense on keeping that TV on.
[50:56.060 --> 50:56.940]  I'm not sure why.
[50:57.140 --> 51:00.480]  That's not to be construed as advice to anybody, but boy, the things you can't get away with.
[51:00.980 --> 51:02.380]  Now, you had a TV BeGone.
[51:02.460 --> 51:03.960]  You had the regular keychain one for this?
[51:04.580 --> 51:09.460]  I had my TV BeGone kit, which I built into a baseball hat.
[51:09.560 --> 51:09.780]  Uh-huh.
[51:09.900 --> 51:10.380]  Oh, okay.
[51:11.020 --> 51:16.220]  And it has four emitters pointing out of the visor and an activator button that I put on the top.
[51:16.340 --> 51:19.820]  But you can have this kind of fun with just a normal keychain TV BeGone, correct?
[51:19.960 --> 51:20.680]  Oh, yes, of course.
[51:20.680 --> 51:21.160]  All right.
[51:21.260 --> 51:28.000]  So that's the kind of mischief you can get up to if you're creative and have a good rebellious streak.
[51:28.200 --> 51:32.100]  For a pledge of $50, you'll get that, and you'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[51:32.220 --> 51:33.580]  212-209-2950.
[51:33.720 --> 51:36.380]  I don't know if the TV BeGone Plus is still there.
[51:36.520 --> 51:38.400]  Call up 212-209-2950.
[51:38.420 --> 51:41.920]  We have one that has a range of a tenth of a kilometer.
[51:42.060 --> 51:45.220]  And for those of us in America, Mike, how far is a tenth of a kilometer?
[51:45.220 --> 51:48.820]  It is 109 yards.
[51:49.020 --> 51:49.820]  109 yards.
[51:50.040 --> 51:50.240]  Yes.
[51:50.240 --> 51:50.300]  Okay.
[51:50.560 --> 51:52.000]  How about in miles?
[51:52.120 --> 51:53.960]  What percentage of a mile do you think that is?
[51:54.120 --> 51:55.920]  It's about 6% of a mile.
[51:56.080 --> 51:57.280]  6% of a mile.
[51:57.580 --> 51:57.900]  Yes.
[51:58.000 --> 51:58.920]  Somehow that didn't help.
[51:59.100 --> 52:00.360]  But it's a long ways.
[52:01.280 --> 52:03.540]  If I'm standing on a...
[52:03.540 --> 52:08.660]  Okay, let's say I'm standing on the corner of 45th Street and 3rd Avenue, and I'm pointing up.
[52:08.660 --> 52:09.340]  Uh-huh.
[52:09.560 --> 52:10.780]  Will I hit 46th Street?
[52:11.360 --> 52:12.820]  Will I go beyond 46th Street?
[52:13.160 --> 52:14.640]  I think it's about a city block.
[52:14.840 --> 52:15.460]  About a city block.
[52:15.560 --> 52:15.720]  Okay.
[52:15.800 --> 52:16.620]  So that's a good way to do it.
[52:16.700 --> 52:17.380]  A city block.
[52:17.660 --> 52:18.380]  Imagine that.
[52:18.520 --> 52:22.960]  I can't even think of what happens if you just sort of spray this thing around an apartment building.
[52:23.320 --> 52:24.600]  Everybody's TVs might go off.
[52:25.160 --> 52:25.860]  Be careful.
[52:26.080 --> 52:30.020]  Again, as Mitch said, for professionals, 212-209-2950.
[52:30.220 --> 52:32.520]  Pledge of $250 if it's not already taken.
[52:32.760 --> 52:33.900]  Credit cards only, please.
[52:34.460 --> 52:38.540]  212-209-2950 for that one pledge, just so that we know that it was taken.
[52:39.840 --> 52:41.440]  And there will be no more of those.
[52:41.580 --> 52:48.860]  But for all the other people, 212-209-2950, $50 pledge for a TV Be Gone, a regular TV Be Gone, and the Off the Hook T-shirt.
[52:48.960 --> 52:51.080]  And in addition, we have all the things we were talking about before.
[52:51.720 --> 52:56.980]  Hacker sweatshirt, coffee mugs, the Lifetime audio subscription, and things like that.
[52:57.100 --> 53:01.980]  And of course, with your pledge of any amount, you get the greatest premium of all, which is that the radio station keeps going.
[53:02.220 --> 53:02.980]  Oh, that's sweet.
[53:03.140 --> 53:03.360]  Yeah.
[53:03.360 --> 53:03.540]  Yeah.
[53:08.660 --> 53:12.820]  You get it back for your pledge, except the knowledge that you're helping the radio station out.
[53:12.940 --> 53:13.960]  And that's fine.
[53:14.180 --> 53:15.320]  I applaud that.
[53:15.580 --> 53:18.200]  I mean, first of all, it makes things a lot easier for the station, obviously.
[53:19.260 --> 53:22.780]  But that really should be the reason you're calling in the first place.
[53:22.980 --> 53:25.220]  We're trying to make it as pleasant as possible.
[53:25.220 --> 53:26.340]  We're trying to donate ourselves.
[53:26.840 --> 53:33.080]  But really, really, the reason that you should be calling is to support the radio station and keep this place going.
[53:33.660 --> 53:35.260]  And everything else is just...
[53:36.140 --> 53:38.020]  It's sort of spreading the goodwill around.
[53:38.600 --> 53:43.760]  Even if you don't need any of this, if you just want to give it to somebody else, the important thing is that you make that call.
[53:43.860 --> 53:45.400]  212-209-2950.
[53:45.460 --> 53:47.480]  It looks like we have about five calls on the line, which is great.
[53:47.560 --> 53:49.460]  I want to thank everybody for calling in.
[53:49.940 --> 53:51.880]  Now, one other thing we want to get to tonight.
[53:52.060 --> 53:52.520]  Now, not Kevin.
[53:52.680 --> 53:54.720]  You were a part of this.
[53:55.380 --> 54:00.260]  We talked about the anonymous people and their attack on Scientology over the past couple of weeks.
[54:00.700 --> 54:12.240]  This past Sunday, there were demonstrations all around the world of these anonymous people, anonymous people on the internet, and they showed up in cities all around the world to protest Scientology.
[54:12.320 --> 54:13.360]  You saw what happened in New York?
[54:13.540 --> 54:13.940]  Yes.
[54:14.180 --> 54:21.800]  About 250 people showed up masked outside this Church of Scientology on 46th Street.
[54:22.400 --> 54:23.000]  Oh, wow.
[54:23.000 --> 54:24.720]  So I wasn't too far off, and I said 45th Street.
[54:24.940 --> 54:25.080]  No.
[54:25.520 --> 54:26.240]  I didn't mean that.
[54:26.300 --> 54:29.480]  So from 45th Street, you might be able to turn off the Scientologist television.
[54:29.620 --> 54:29.740]  Yeah.
[54:29.760 --> 54:34.120]  You know, I really wasn't pushing for people to go outside the Scientology building on what, 46th Street?
[54:34.220 --> 54:34.500]  46th Street.
[54:34.620 --> 54:36.380]  46th Street and turn off their TV sets.
[54:36.440 --> 54:37.520]  I was not pushing for that at all.
[54:37.580 --> 54:38.800]  I didn't even know that they were on that street.
[54:38.900 --> 54:39.960]  I wouldn't recommend it.
[54:40.020 --> 54:40.960]  No, I wouldn't recommend that either.
[54:40.980 --> 54:41.720]  That could be dangerous.
[54:41.840 --> 54:42.360]  Very dangerous.
[54:42.360 --> 54:42.640]  Yeah.
[54:43.740 --> 54:45.380]  But, so now people showed up.
[54:45.440 --> 54:48.680]  Now, I guess they're not anonymous anymore if they show up in person, right?
[54:48.820 --> 54:52.020]  They were either wearing masks or other things to cover their face.
[54:52.360 --> 54:52.760]  Really?
[54:52.900 --> 54:53.040]  Yes.
[54:53.040 --> 54:53.680]  They covered their faces.
[54:53.840 --> 54:55.600]  Isn't that illegal to cover your faces in New York?
[54:55.800 --> 54:59.220]  Not if you can prove that the mask has political meaning.
[54:59.720 --> 55:00.120]  No.
[55:00.120 --> 55:02.360]  And how do you get to prove that exactly?
[55:02.600 --> 55:05.900]  Well, the law is very sporadically enforced, but it is still illegal.
[55:06.220 --> 55:06.440]  Uh-huh.
[55:06.600 --> 55:09.400]  So are you saying nobody showed their face, or some people did?
[55:09.400 --> 55:11.620]  No one, just about no one showed their face.
[55:11.820 --> 55:12.180]  Interesting.
[55:12.440 --> 55:13.120]  Very interesting.
[55:13.380 --> 55:18.460]  Now, I see a picture here of what happened in New York, and everybody looks like they're penned into a little tiny area.
[55:18.460 --> 55:24.360]  You call that the free speech zone after the conventions when they, I think, made up that term.
[55:24.820 --> 55:27.440]  It's kind of sad that people have to be confined.
[55:27.620 --> 55:28.100]  Is it an old...
[55:28.100 --> 55:29.460]  Free speech zone is an old term?
[55:29.520 --> 55:29.780]  Yeah.
[55:30.160 --> 55:30.420]  Oh.
[55:30.560 --> 55:34.080]  I actually did further researching on why everyone was herded into this pen.
[55:34.260 --> 55:34.500]  Uh-huh.
[55:34.680 --> 55:41.460]  And according to the police, it was to keep the protesters and the Scientologist agitators away from each other.
[55:41.580 --> 55:41.720]  Ah.
[55:41.900 --> 55:46.180]  Yeah, the police always have the demonstrators' best interests at heart, so that's one thing I've learned.
[55:46.760 --> 55:49.980]  Any other conclusions you can draw from this as we are running out of time?
[55:50.060 --> 55:52.280]  Anything that surprised you about this demonstration?
[55:52.600 --> 55:56.600]  How non-illegal it was.
[55:56.760 --> 56:00.360]  There was no bantering of passerbyers.
[56:00.480 --> 56:02.160]  It was all very calm and organized.
[56:02.540 --> 56:05.500]  I was very surprised at how smooth things went.
[56:05.500 --> 56:06.060]  Uh-huh.
[56:06.620 --> 56:08.680]  And a bunch of people just organizing on the internet.
[56:09.400 --> 56:11.780]  It's always cool to see that happen one way or another.
[56:12.360 --> 56:13.820]  And I imagine we'll see more.
[56:13.940 --> 56:14.720]  There's going to be another demonstration.
[56:14.820 --> 56:19.700]  There will be another demonstration according to the anonymous websites that on the 15th of March...
[56:19.700 --> 56:20.640]  15th of this month.
[56:20.860 --> 56:21.600]  And same places.
[56:21.820 --> 56:22.980]  Same places all around the world.
[56:23.120 --> 56:23.320]  Okay.
[56:23.360 --> 56:27.520]  So find a Scientologist near you and demonstrate by them and let us know what happens.
[56:27.980 --> 56:28.380]  Interesting.
[56:28.580 --> 56:31.520]  And always fascinating to see these things develop over time.
[56:31.720 --> 56:32.020]  Okay.
[56:32.080 --> 56:32.760]  We're out of time.
[56:35.500 --> 56:40.860]  Continue to call in all of the premiums, which except for, I believe, the TV Begon Pro are available.
[56:41.680 --> 56:43.700]  Call up 212-209-2950.
[56:43.900 --> 56:44.820]  Ask the people there.
[56:45.300 --> 56:47.600]  They'll be able to tell you exactly what is available.
[56:47.800 --> 56:51.120]  Please continue to have those phones ring off the hook.
[56:51.740 --> 56:52.640]  No pun intended.
[56:52.860 --> 56:55.100]  212-209-2950.
[56:55.260 --> 56:56.140]  Thanks, everybody, for calling in.
[56:56.220 --> 56:57.020]  We're not on next week.
[56:57.060 --> 56:58.400]  We will be on the week following.
[56:59.640 --> 57:01.280]  Again, your calls are appreciated.
[57:01.580 --> 57:02.600]  Thanks for supporting this place.
[57:02.980 --> 57:04.620]  212-209-2950.
[57:04.780 --> 57:04.960]  Good night.
[57:05.500 --> 57:06.980]  Try and try.
[57:08.100 --> 57:10.740]  You'll succeed at last.
[57:15.860 --> 57:16.820]  Look here.
[57:18.180 --> 57:20.500]  Persecution, you must fear.
[57:21.440 --> 57:24.340]  Win and lose, you've got to get your share.
[57:25.200 --> 57:28.080]  But your mind set on a dream.
[57:28.920 --> 57:30.280]  You can get it.
[57:30.600 --> 57:32.320]  No harm is missing now.
[57:32.740 --> 57:35.560]  You can get it if you really want.
[57:35.560 --> 57:39.100]  You can get it if you really want.
[57:39.880 --> 57:43.020]  You can get it if you really want.
[57:43.220 --> 57:44.280]  But you must try.
[57:44.820 --> 57:46.400]  Try and try.
[57:46.880 --> 57:48.300]  Try and try.
[57:49.380 --> 57:51.780]  You'll succeed at last.
[57:53.880 --> 57:55.840]  I know it.
[57:58.860 --> 57:59.680]  I know it.
[57:59.680 --> 58:01.860]  Rome was not built in a day.
[58:03.080 --> 58:05.640]  Opposition would come your way.
[58:06.460 --> 58:09.380]  But the heart of the battle, you see.
[58:10.060 --> 58:13.540]  It's the sweeter, the victory now.
[58:13.900 --> 58:16.860]  You can get it if you really want.
[58:16.860 --> 58:19.040]  Is you can get it.
[58:19.280 --> 58:20.600]  You can get it if you really want.
[58:21.200 --> 58:24.280]  We can get it if you really want.
[58:24.520 --> 58:25.500]  But you must try.
[58:26.120 --> 58:27.580]  Try and try.
[58:28.260 --> 58:29.540]  Try and try.
[58:30.580 --> 58:32.880]  You succeed at last.
[58:51.230 --> 58:54.430]  You can get it if you really want.
[58:55.090 --> 58:58.070]  You can get it if you really want.
[58:58.310 --> 58:59.350]  But you must try.
[58:59.890 --> 59:01.370]  Try and try.
[59:01.950 --> 59:03.350]  Try and try.
[59:04.610 --> 59:06.910]  You'll succeed at last.
[59:19.050 --> 59:20.670]  Man, you are great.
[59:20.970 --> 59:21.850]  Look at the timing.
[59:22.150 --> 59:23.330]  Look at that timing.
[59:23.650 --> 59:24.970]  Two, one.