[00:00.000 --> 00:18.360]  ...has given you the details of the trials that have gone on in federal courts over habeas corpus, over torture, over the secret rendition programs that the CIA used to spirit people away to secret detention facilities where they were tortured until it was determined,
[00:18.740 --> 00:19.980]  hey, we got the wrong guy.
[00:19.980 --> 00:22.880]  Okay, 212-209-2950.
[00:23.040 --> 00:24.700]  We can't do it without you.
[00:24.860 --> 00:26.100]  We need your support.
[00:26.320 --> 00:28.040]  Please make that call.
[00:28.240 --> 00:29.160]  Pledge your support.
[00:29.360 --> 00:32.960]  Become a listener sponsor of Community Radio in New York.
[00:33.200 --> 00:34.580]  Thank you, and good night.
[00:35.940 --> 00:36.820]  And good evening.
[00:37.000 --> 00:38.000]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:38.140 --> 00:46.040]  You're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is exactly 7 o'clock, as I just mentioned.
[00:46.280 --> 00:47.280]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:21.230 --> 02:22.030]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:22.170 --> 02:23.010]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:23.110 --> 02:28.630]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, where we're joined in the studio tonight.
[02:30.570 --> 02:31.950]  by... who are these people?
[02:32.050 --> 02:32.650]  Oh, Mike.
[02:33.430 --> 02:34.170]  No, wait.
[02:34.570 --> 02:35.090]  Say that again.
[02:35.530 --> 02:35.870]  Hi.
[02:35.990 --> 02:36.370]  There you are.
[02:37.190 --> 02:38.990]  And there's Redbird over there.
[02:39.170 --> 02:39.610]  Good evening.
[02:40.150 --> 02:41.370]  On the other side of the room is not Kevin.
[02:41.750 --> 02:42.110]  Hello.
[02:42.390 --> 02:44.330]  Is that the face of Laszlo, I see?
[02:44.410 --> 02:44.790]  It is.
[02:44.890 --> 02:46.170]  Wow, I haven't seen you in a dog's age.
[02:46.170 --> 02:48.190]  It's been many moons since I've been on your show.
[02:48.370 --> 02:48.730]  Wow.
[02:48.850 --> 02:49.370]  Well, welcome.
[02:49.610 --> 02:51.630]  I think you were on my show the last time.
[02:51.630 --> 02:53.190]  I was on your show on K-Rock.
[02:53.330 --> 02:53.530]  Yes.
[02:53.570 --> 02:54.570]  When it was still K-Rock.
[02:54.670 --> 02:55.450]  Oh, it's K-Rock again.
[02:55.450 --> 02:55.970]  It is.
[02:56.150 --> 02:56.370]  Wow.
[02:56.370 --> 02:59.710]  But I pulled the cord before David Lee Roth came in.
[02:59.770 --> 03:03.390]  I knew that that was bad management decisions coming down the pipe.
[03:03.590 --> 03:05.710]  And we escorted Howard Stern out.
[03:05.970 --> 03:06.170]  Correct.
[03:06.550 --> 03:06.930]  A lot of security guards.
[03:07.710 --> 03:08.010]  All right.
[03:08.070 --> 03:09.370]  And down there in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[03:09.590 --> 03:09.850]  joining us.
[03:10.210 --> 03:11.170]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:11.490 --> 03:11.890]  Hi, Les.
[03:12.590 --> 03:13.330]  Hello, Bernie.
[03:13.570 --> 03:15.870]  Now, we have a lot of things to talk about tonight.
[03:15.910 --> 03:18.430]  And obviously, with Laszlo here, we're going to talk about radio a little bit.
[03:18.430 --> 03:23.170]  But what I'd first like to do, this is the last of our three fundraising shows.
[03:24.010 --> 03:27.550]  So we have all kinds of special features and presentations and things like that.
[03:27.590 --> 03:28.770]  I'd like for people to listen to this.
[03:28.850 --> 03:32.010]  This is about a five-minute excerpt from one of the shows that we did.
[03:32.070 --> 03:34.870]  This was all the way back in 1999.
[03:36.230 --> 03:42.190]  And it's one of the more memorable shows that we did here at the radio station here on this particular program.
[03:42.790 --> 03:52.130]  And it's serving as a reminder that we have available for one of the premiums tonight, a full archive set of Off the Hook, if you call 212-209-2950.
[03:52.790 --> 03:53.710]  Take a listen to this.
[03:53.830 --> 03:56.290]  This was on November 30th, 1999.
[03:56.630 --> 04:02.570]  I don't know if that date rings a bell to many people, but that was the day of the WTO protest in Seattle.
[04:03.030 --> 04:06.150]  We were preparing to do a regular show here on the radio station.
[04:06.530 --> 04:08.810]  And our friend Amy Goodman was out in Seattle.
[04:09.410 --> 04:17.450]  And she called us right when the show began, and while there was just nothing else we could do, we had to have her on to talk about what was going on in the streets.
[04:17.530 --> 04:17.870]  Take a listen.
[04:18.030 --> 04:21.030]  We have Amy on the phone, and we're going to go to her live in Seattle.
[04:21.170 --> 04:21.710]  Amy, it's Emanuel.
[04:21.870 --> 04:22.470]  You're live on the air.
[04:22.910 --> 04:23.590]  What's going on out there?
[04:23.590 --> 04:24.550]  Hi, this is Amy Goodman.
[04:24.670 --> 04:27.870]  I'm reporting live from the streets of Seattle, where the police have moved in.
[04:27.970 --> 04:32.010]  They've pushed out all the protesters just down the street.
[04:33.190 --> 04:36.310]  As you can hear in the background, this is tear gas going off.
[04:36.310 --> 04:38.770]  There's also been a lot of rubber bullets.
[04:39.510 --> 04:41.190]  I'm now just down the street.
[04:41.410 --> 04:44.830]  The police moved in as some fights had broken out.
[04:44.990 --> 04:53.470]  The vast majority of protesters who are here protesting the World Trade Organization are absolutely peaceful, trying to prevent any kind of looting.
[04:54.450 --> 04:59.750]  But all at once, this was just after the mayor had announced there would be a curfew at 7 o'clock.
[04:59.750 --> 05:02.810]  The police started to move down the street en masse.
[05:02.950 --> 05:06.390]  As you can hear, they are hauling tear gas.
[05:06.590 --> 05:09.690]  I'm going to run across the street to Nike Town.
[05:10.030 --> 05:11.770]  Nike Town, FAO Schwartz.
[05:11.890 --> 05:13.950]  This is the corner that I'm on, Planet Hollywood.
[05:14.230 --> 05:15.950]  A large site of the demonstrations.
[05:15.950 --> 05:19.210]  People had chained themselves to a large obstacle in the street.
[05:20.090 --> 05:20.610]  Yes?
[05:22.230 --> 05:25.930]  People had chained themselves to a large obstacle in the street.
[05:25.930 --> 05:28.870]  I'm going to go over and see if any of them are still there.
[05:29.950 --> 05:34.590]  The police, without notice, had moved in.
[05:34.650 --> 05:36.930]  They're now looking at a backpack and an object.
[05:36.930 --> 05:40.670]  But the police have cleared out this whole area, are tear gassing everyone.
[05:40.670 --> 05:46.570]  It's right outside the Sheraton and the Convention Center, where the WTO was supposed to hold its meetings today.
[05:46.570 --> 05:51.530]  It's unclear if they were able to conduct any kind of business in the World Trade Organization.
[05:51.770 --> 05:54.030]  Amy, how many people are there right now on the street?
[05:54.030 --> 05:55.490]  Thousands and thousands of people.
[05:56.110 --> 05:59.050]  Again, I'm just in a completely closed-off area.
[05:59.350 --> 06:02.790]  One of the few people behind this police line.
[06:03.410 --> 06:12.170]  Because I'm press, it just smoke as I look down the street, because the police are pushing people down the street right now.
[06:12.250 --> 06:15.630]  And I'm running down to see what's happening.
[06:15.630 --> 06:20.650]  But every time I try to go past, a policeman pushes me back.
[06:21.630 --> 06:23.550]  I'm running down the street, as you can hear.
[06:23.550 --> 06:26.590]  They've been trying to negotiate with the police throughout the day.
[06:26.870 --> 06:30.030]  They were even negotiating to say they would leave peacefully.
[06:31.810 --> 06:35.070]  And they would come back tomorrow to stop the World Trade Organization.
[06:36.270 --> 06:45.370]  There were some rowdy younger people who the protesters were trying to control.
[06:47.530 --> 06:52.530]  And using that as a pretext, they just moved in and cleared everyone out.
[06:52.690 --> 06:58.630]  I'm now just moving down two blocks where the site of the police, they have pushed the crowd back at this point.
[06:58.830 --> 07:05.830]  One of the things that's happened throughout the day is that the police have denied that they use rubber bullets.
[07:05.830 --> 07:15.090]  But I've been talking with police officers who say, yes, in fact, police bullets, rubber bullets are being used.
[07:15.250 --> 07:17.030]  And they are coming out of guns.
[07:18.510 --> 07:21.250]  And how close are you to those...
[07:21.250 --> 07:21.730]  I'm right here.
[07:22.190 --> 07:23.370]  I'm right on the corner.
[07:23.650 --> 07:24.210]  What are they?
[07:24.310 --> 07:25.290]  They're firing tear gas.
[07:25.290 --> 07:26.430]  That's the noise at the tear gas.
[07:26.470 --> 07:27.810]  They're firing tear gas and...
[07:30.370 --> 07:31.090]  They're firing...
[07:32.330 --> 07:35.230]  Amy, get yourself away from there if you have...
[07:35.230 --> 07:37.590]  It sounds like you're way too close.
[07:37.970 --> 07:38.430]  Just one sec.
[07:39.270 --> 07:42.510]  I'm next to an armored vehicle.
[07:53.390 --> 07:54.950]  Armored vehicles, arm it out.
[07:56.010 --> 07:57.370]  Sorry, it's just the tear gas.
[07:58.330 --> 07:59.830]  Are now moving down the street.
[08:01.150 --> 08:02.970]  Okay, okay, okay.
[08:04.150 --> 08:05.310]  I'm pressed, I'm pressed.
[08:05.530 --> 08:05.950]  I don't care.
[08:06.190 --> 08:06.870]  You're moving back?
[08:07.170 --> 08:08.550]  Oh, the press are moving forward.
[08:08.970 --> 08:09.830]  Nope, you're moving back.
[08:11.410 --> 08:14.290]  A policewoman is now just pushing me back with her baton.
[08:16.390 --> 08:17.770]  The police are moving in.
[08:17.970 --> 08:21.270]  There are two armored vehicles.
[08:21.990 --> 08:25.310]  We're now moving past Rite Aid Pharmacy.
[08:25.650 --> 08:26.370]  Move back.
[08:27.490 --> 08:30.170]  As you can hear, the police officer is saying, move back.
[08:31.570 --> 08:33.030]  Let me just catch my breath.
[08:33.270 --> 08:35.410]  Amy, what is the general mood over there?
[08:35.630 --> 08:36.670]  I'm standing along the line.
[08:40.210 --> 08:41.570]  Oh, the press are right there.
[08:41.710 --> 08:44.290]  Why am I, why are you selecting me out to move me down?
[08:45.010 --> 08:45.730]  This isn't fair.
[08:45.790 --> 08:46.890]  Let me go up to where the press is.
[08:46.990 --> 08:47.910]  I have to do my job.
[08:49.750 --> 08:50.290]  Thank you.
[08:50.630 --> 08:51.830]  The press is all there.
[08:51.970 --> 08:52.930]  Please let me go there.
[08:53.650 --> 08:54.010]  Okay.
[08:54.310 --> 08:56.090]  Do you have a press pass that's visible?
[08:56.270 --> 08:56.650]  Yes, yes, yes.
[08:56.770 --> 08:57.490]  I have a press pass.
[08:57.590 --> 08:58.310]  Okay, here we go.
[08:58.410 --> 09:00.670]  What is the general mood there amongst the protesters?
[09:00.670 --> 09:02.690]  Is it one of panic or...
[09:02.690 --> 09:05.550]  Well, at this moment, yes, at this moment.
[09:05.650 --> 09:09.890]  But I think there's a tremendous feeling of empowerment on this day.
[09:10.050 --> 09:11.150]  Okay, we're going to cut away there.
[09:12.470 --> 09:13.090]  Amy's okay.
[09:13.310 --> 09:14.130]  Nothing's happening today.
[09:14.270 --> 09:18.810]  That was actually an excerpt from 1999, in addition of, believe it or not, off the hook.
[09:19.310 --> 09:22.350]  It's proof that anything can happen when you're on the radio.
[09:22.350 --> 09:33.090]  When you're on the radio live at a community station like this, all of a sudden, something can happen, and you can have your entire show diverted to a completely different subject.
[09:33.250 --> 09:51.650]  And in that particular case, November 30th, 1999, a very important day in history in this country, even though many people probably don't even know it, the day of the WTO protest in Seattle, which I think changed the tone in this country a lot towards activism and towards the way authorities clamp down on people,
[09:52.970 --> 10:12.090]  again, that's an example of just one of the many, many excerpts that you can hear, entire shows that you can hear if you get the off the hook Lifetime subscription, which basically will have audio of all the shows in full broadcast quality delivered to you on DVDs with MP3 files,
[10:12.090 --> 10:13.610]  and you'll get them forever.
[10:13.810 --> 10:16.690]  You'll get them until we stop doing the show, whenever that might be.
[10:16.690 --> 10:24.890]  212-209-2950 for a pledge of $125, you get all the shows from 1988 up until now and on into the future.
[10:25.230 --> 10:26.190]  It's pretty good.
[10:26.250 --> 10:26.770]  What do you think, Laszlo?
[10:27.310 --> 10:33.630]  Thanks to those Seattle protests, we now get to protest in cages, or I'm sorry, free speech zones, they call them.
[10:33.750 --> 10:34.970]  Yeah, well, don't blame them.
[10:35.070 --> 10:35.870]  No, I'm not blaming them.
[10:35.890 --> 10:45.310]  I'm just saying that they saw what people were capable of, and they said, you know what, no more protesting and no more broadcasting about it, because it made them look horrible.
[10:45.310 --> 10:46.230]  Well, that's the thing.
[10:46.370 --> 10:48.970]  I mean, the people that were protesting weren't doing anything bad.
[10:49.170 --> 10:53.630]  They were, I mean, this is also the birth of indie media for most people.
[10:53.790 --> 11:07.070]  They basically saw that other people, non-major media people, can cover a story, they can use cameras, they can use tape recorders, or whatever devices they have to record what was going on around them, and then they can put it on the internet.
[11:07.470 --> 11:19.990]  And in 1999, that was a fairly new thing, but people started doing it en masse at that particular point, and that's really the birth of the whole indie media movement, because they realized they didn't need, they didn't need the mass media to get the word out.
[11:20.090 --> 11:22.350]  It's good to have the mass media, but you don't need it.
[11:22.950 --> 11:31.770]  And so you saw all these people suddenly getting involved, and I think that's really what the authorities are afraid of, is people becoming empowered in that particular way.
[11:31.770 --> 11:34.670]  Okay, 212-209-2950, we have one call on the line.
[11:34.830 --> 11:42.830]  Again, this is the last night we're offering this, so you'll get all the shows from 1988 up until the present, and every show into the future.
[11:43.670 --> 11:49.570]  It's amazing, because I kind of forgot about that show, believe it or not, a historic show like that, and literally it was the entire program.
[11:49.690 --> 11:50.410]  It was funny.
[11:50.530 --> 11:59.330]  We started to do a program, maybe we got a sentence out, and the emergency line was ringing, and we picked it up, and it was Amy, and we made the decision we have to go ahead with this, it's too important.
[11:59.330 --> 12:01.330]  And that's happened a few times on this show.
[12:01.570 --> 12:05.610]  There was one time where the police were invading the station, and we rebroadcast that live.
[12:06.170 --> 12:08.070]  There were all kinds of interesting things.
[12:08.170 --> 12:11.870]  I think this show, for some reason, things happen during this particular time slot.
[12:12.130 --> 12:16.650]  So if it happens, we cover it, and you'll hear it as if it was happening live.
[12:16.850 --> 12:19.230]  I wonder if people were listening just now thinking that was live.
[12:19.410 --> 12:23.070]  Meanwhile, other stations in New York City were doing a Pearl Jam rock block.
[12:23.270 --> 12:23.650]  Exactly.
[12:23.730 --> 12:24.810]  Your station was, wasn't it?
[12:24.850 --> 12:25.670]  Well, it's not my station.
[12:25.670 --> 12:28.530]  Well, the station that you were on, that your voice was heard on.
[12:28.530 --> 12:29.790]  But yeah, that's that.
[12:29.850 --> 12:32.430]  I mean, some of these stations, they don't even have people in the studio.
[12:32.830 --> 12:35.510]  They're just computers or disembodied voices.
[12:35.770 --> 12:46.010]  And when I first got into radio, which was in the mid-90s, there was, there were news people at even just your normal rock station or music station, whatever.
[12:46.190 --> 12:54.910]  There were still news people, and there was still this sort of mentality of, we have to do something for the public so that we earn our license.
[12:55.070 --> 12:56.530]  They've gotten rid of that entirely.
[12:56.690 --> 13:01.390]  There's no afternoon news reports on rock stations or any music stations.
[13:01.630 --> 13:05.910]  They'll do maybe a quick couple of blurbs about what Britney Spears ate last night.
[13:06.130 --> 13:09.430]  But in terms of where your civil rights are going, good luck.
[13:09.430 --> 13:15.590]  Yeah, you know, and this particular thing, if you listen to more of that program, by the way, 212-209-2950, please call and pledge.
[13:15.730 --> 13:22.130]  It's important that we raise funds to keep this station on the air so that we can imagine if this place wasn't here then, you would never have heard about it over the air.
[13:22.310 --> 13:23.910]  That's an important fact to consider.
[13:24.190 --> 13:26.870]  So you're helping to support the place by calling in with your pledge.
[13:27.430 --> 13:36.110]  But back then, there were reports from the major media saying that they were not going to cover any unauthorized protest in Seattle.
[13:36.110 --> 13:41.110]  So, in other words, you had to get permission from the police to have a protest, and then the media would cover it.
[13:41.290 --> 13:42.690]  Otherwise, it didn't happen.
[13:42.830 --> 13:44.710]  Otherwise, it was just erased from history.
[13:44.950 --> 13:48.130]  And that kind of thing really scares me, that they have that kind of power.
[13:48.230 --> 13:49.590]  Not on WBAI, to be clear.
[13:49.670 --> 13:51.870]  No, that was a station in Seattle.
[13:52.330 --> 13:55.710]  WBAI, yeah, we stayed on the air and we covered this.
[13:55.890 --> 13:56.910]  We covered a lot of it.
[13:56.910 --> 13:57.110]  Emmanuel?
[13:57.310 --> 13:57.830]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[13:59.150 --> 14:08.030]  Speaking of what you just said, that just confirms that the mainstream media would only report news that the police allowed them to report.
[14:08.190 --> 14:18.490]  I mean, it sounds like war coverage over the past few years with our government, where the major media will only report news that the government allows them to report.
[14:18.670 --> 14:23.010]  And that wasn't the first or last time we've covered such a topic, either.
[14:23.290 --> 14:40.650]  It was the year following, in 2000, that we did some coverage of the Republican National Convention protests and the lead-up to it here in Philadelphia, where the police and the Secret Service planned in advance, based on their experiences in Seattle,
[14:41.010 --> 14:53.370]  to simply round up protesters and organizers prior to the protests and lock them up with no probable cause whatsoever, as was determined later.
[14:54.550 --> 14:56.870]  And so, and we continue to cover that live.
[14:57.270 --> 15:03.610]  You know, we're sort of, we're sort of brought into the story, you know, it's, it's not like we ask for trouble, it just sort of seems to follow us.
[15:04.150 --> 15:11.730]  In this particular case, we were on the air, and that's when, that's when Amy was, happened to be in Seattle, when, when everything was hitting the fan.
[15:13.150 --> 15:27.050]  And, um, what happened in Philadelphia, with the RNC, was that our own layout artist at the time, Shapeshifter, happened to be walking down the street, on the phone, actually talking to me, because I went down to Philadelphia to sort of see what was going on,
[15:27.430 --> 15:33.050]  uh, you know, not to shut down the city or cause problems or anything like that, just out of curiosity to report back on the radio show.
[15:33.210 --> 15:38.730]  And he was talking to me on the phone, and he was under surveillance by, get this, Washington, D.C.
[15:38.910 --> 15:48.890]  police, because Philadelphia police weren't allowed to infiltrate, uh, certain, um, activist groups, which he was involved in, but other police departments apparently were welcome to do that.
[15:49.090 --> 15:55.870]  So he was under surveillance, and they saw him talking on the phone, they assumed that he was organizing everything that was going on.
[15:55.970 --> 15:57.510]  I don't know why they assumed he was doing that.
[15:57.630 --> 16:00.790]  And so they swooped in, and they arrested him for talking on the phone.
[16:00.870 --> 16:02.030]  That was the evidence they had against him.
[16:02.090 --> 16:06.550]  He sued the city, he won, but it was a, it was a very interesting story, very amazing.
[16:06.550 --> 16:10.650]  It got, uh, national attention, uh, and yeah, we were right in the thick of it.
[16:10.750 --> 16:17.070]  And that, if you get the package, not to bring it back to, uh, trying to pitch something over and over again, but that's the point of what we're doing here tonight.
[16:17.310 --> 16:19.990]  If you get the off-the-hook package, you will hear that as well.
[16:20.150 --> 16:22.270]  212-209-2950.
[16:22.850 --> 16:33.170]  Keep in mind, the only reason that this place is on the air broadcasting things like this is because we have listeners like you who have supported this radio station since 1960.
[16:33.650 --> 16:34.490]  Kept us on the air.
[16:34.490 --> 16:41.530]  Imagine what it would be like not to have this voice to hear things like this that are going on in this country and other parts of the world.
[16:41.690 --> 16:42.470]  Are there other items?
[16:43.270 --> 16:44.190]  There are other items.
[16:44.330 --> 16:48.590]  Oh, in fact, you get a t-shirt, you get a free off-the-hook t-shirt with that package.
[16:48.750 --> 16:50.430]  $125, you, you will get that.
[16:50.790 --> 16:53.610]  Uh, and we are going to have a couple other packages, uh, tonight too.
[16:53.930 --> 16:58.870]  Um, other, other things as well, but, uh, I just want to make sure people know this is the last night we're offering this.
[16:59.070 --> 17:01.330]  125, all the off-the-hooks.
[17:01.330 --> 17:03.090]  How many shows did we figure out it was?
[17:03.610 --> 17:06.090]  I, I don't think we could count that high is what we concluded.
[17:06.090 --> 17:07.110]  Oh, we can count that high.
[17:07.230 --> 17:11.790]  It's just we don't want to, but, uh, figure what, uh, 40, 45 shows a year.
[17:12.230 --> 17:15.690]  Um, we really started in earnest in the, in the early 90s.
[17:15.870 --> 17:18.670]  Uh, 1988, we had, we had a debut special.
[17:19.150 --> 17:26.790]  And 1989, we had a few shows, including, uh, talking about, uh, the Kevin Mitnick case way back then, um, all kinds of historical events happened.
[17:26.890 --> 17:31.530]  And not only, not only do you hear the stories that we talked about, but you hear the way technology has changed.
[17:31.650 --> 17:33.210]  We play with voicemail systems on the air.
[17:33.350 --> 17:36.870]  You hear phones ringing with different sounds than they have today.
[17:37.230 --> 17:40.010]  It's a, it's a real history lesson in so many ways.
[17:40.110 --> 17:42.390]  And I'm, I'm just so happy that we captured it.
[17:42.470 --> 17:43.210]  We recorded it.
[17:43.630 --> 17:45.410]  Uh, and now that can all come to you.
[17:45.410 --> 17:53.350]  Now, yes, it is on the internet at low quality, uh, I believe it's 16 kbps and what we're offering now is 128.
[17:53.590 --> 17:55.390]  So it's a phenomenal difference.
[17:56.010 --> 18:01.550]  Um, you can listen to it online and, and get a sampling as to what it's like, but it will not sound like the way it sounded over the air.
[18:01.630 --> 18:04.350]  So that's eight times more bits than you could get from the internet.
[18:04.590 --> 18:05.150]  Well, yeah.
[18:05.250 --> 18:07.470]  When you say it like that, it doesn't sound like very much, but it's a, it's a lot.
[18:07.670 --> 18:07.830]  Yeah.
[18:07.950 --> 18:08.770]  Eight times more.
[18:08.870 --> 18:09.230]  Eight times.
[18:09.330 --> 18:10.530]  I want to say it's a hundred times better.
[18:10.890 --> 18:11.490]  You can't.
[18:15.410 --> 18:16.030]  I'm not happy with this.
[18:16.190 --> 18:18.610]  I don't see calls coming in and I'm, I'm, I'm confused.
[18:18.810 --> 18:19.790]  You gotta start a little lower.
[18:20.290 --> 18:24.190]  You're going for the, I like the $125 thing, but what if somebody wants to give 10 bucks?
[18:24.370 --> 18:25.190]  Well, no, that's fine.
[18:25.350 --> 18:31.790]  And we accept any amount, but, um, but the important thing is to, to focus on this because we won't be focusing on this, uh, in the later part of the hour.
[18:32.250 --> 18:32.790]  Uh, okay.
[18:32.850 --> 18:33.570]  There's, there's two calls.
[18:33.630 --> 18:33.910]  That's good.
[18:34.010 --> 18:36.290]  I hope you're not just calling to make me say, oh, there's two calls.
[18:36.330 --> 18:36.850]  Look, that's good.
[18:37.050 --> 18:37.370]  No.
[18:37.650 --> 18:39.010]  Two, one, two, two, zero, nine, two, nine.
[18:39.110 --> 18:40.450]  See, one hung up, one hung up.
[18:40.450 --> 18:46.310]  And I was just in the, in the tally room a few moments ago while you were playing the clip and there's a lot of volunteers there.
[18:46.410 --> 18:46.530]  Yeah.
[18:46.650 --> 18:49.830]  And there's nothing more depressing to a volunteer than to not take any calls.
[18:49.950 --> 18:50.030]  Yeah.
[18:50.090 --> 18:53.510]  Because then all of a sudden it becomes very competitive to get that one call that comes in.
[18:53.610 --> 18:55.870]  Everybody dives onto the table to pick up the phone.
[18:56.430 --> 18:57.210]  Somebody gets it.
[18:57.270 --> 18:57.850]  Somebody doesn't.
[18:57.910 --> 18:58.690]  Words are exchanged.
[18:58.690 --> 19:00.490]  And before you know it, enemies for life are made.
[19:00.590 --> 19:01.270]  We don't need that.
[19:01.390 --> 19:06.470]  And I think, I think people need to remember exactly what radio has turned into.
[19:06.790 --> 19:06.930]  Yeah.
[19:07.030 --> 19:08.050]  Tell us, Laszlo, you know.
[19:08.210 --> 19:12.610]  In America, it's, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, Every time, because I've, I've worked in radio for a while.
[19:12.750 --> 19:15.950]  Every time you think it can't get any worse, it does.
[19:16.770 --> 19:20.410]  And the transition over the last few years has been really amazing.
[19:20.570 --> 19:32.690]  A lot of quality people have been getting out of commercial radio just because it's, it's turned into such a, a bland corporate mess run from places like Texas, um, in the, in the case of Clear Channel.
[19:32.950 --> 19:33.970]  Well, I'm not Texas.
[19:34.130 --> 19:34.950]  Austin is in Texas.
[19:35.210 --> 19:36.050]  Well, I do like Austin.
[19:36.050 --> 19:36.510]  That's true.
[19:36.510 --> 19:45.790]  But there tend to be corporations, uh, that, that come out of Texas that ruin a lot of things like radio and democracy and things like that.
[19:45.850 --> 19:50.670]  But you turn, turn, tune across the dial in any market, any city in America now.
[19:50.670 --> 19:57.350]  Um, and it's the same stations with the same voices and the same songs in the same order.
[19:57.510 --> 19:57.650]  Right.
[19:58.090 --> 20:06.850]  Um, and, uh, a lot of the sort of concept of, of serving the public has gone right out the window.
[20:07.050 --> 20:07.250]  Mm-hmm.
[20:07.350 --> 20:07.650]  Yeah.
[20:07.730 --> 20:10.850]  And, and emergencies, there aren't people staffing the station.
[20:10.850 --> 20:12.950]  So you can't tell people what's going on.
[20:13.150 --> 20:21.490]  You know, weather emergencies or, you know, coup d'etats or whatever it might be happening in your particular city, you can't say anything because you're not there.
[20:21.670 --> 20:25.010]  It's just a, it's just a disembodied voice or satellite feed or something like that.
[20:25.110 --> 20:30.030]  And, and we've seen cases like that where stations have not been serving the public in times of need.
[20:30.170 --> 20:30.590]  Oh, absolutely.
[20:30.710 --> 20:36.770]  There's, you know, it's, there's actually people in this studio here broadcasting, which is sort of an anomaly.
[20:36.950 --> 20:37.070]  Yeah.
[20:37.310 --> 20:54.150]  Because at a lot of stations, and it's hysterical, you do see stories where you've got this thing that somebody recorded in the morning, their whole show for 24 hours, and they say, you know, the weather out there is great and beautiful, but there's a tornado blasting through town,
[20:54.330 --> 20:54.550]  you know?
[20:54.730 --> 20:57.250]  And they said that two weeks ago from a different state.
[20:57.410 --> 20:58.130]  Right, exactly.
[20:58.290 --> 20:58.470]  Yeah.
[20:58.530 --> 21:04.090]  We can tell you tonight it's dark in New York City and it's kind of cold and, you know, everything else is pretty cool.
[21:04.270 --> 21:09.070]  Well, one of the things that we're always talking about is how WBAI isn't influenced by any corporate entities.
[21:09.070 --> 21:13.030]  And we have a perfect opportunity here with Laszlo in the studio to contrast this.
[21:13.110 --> 21:18.850]  Now, obviously, we don't feel like we have to report on anything based on any funding that's coming into the station.
[21:18.990 --> 21:29.250]  But as a radio personality, do you feel that what you say may have ramifications as far as the funding that you get or, you know, the people who are paying you may not be happy with that?
[21:29.510 --> 21:29.950]  Yeah.
[21:30.230 --> 21:38.510]  Fortunately, you know, I was, I left full-time radio years ago, but I was still doing this nationally syndicated technology feature called the Technophile that was on like 100 stations.
[21:38.510 --> 21:50.810]  And, but there was definitely an issue of when you would talk about certain things, you would have stations call and say, if you continue to talk about this or that, it's going to be dropped.
[21:51.430 --> 22:07.490]  And more to his point, you know, Clear Channel and these other few companies that swooped in and bought up all the stations were freaking out because technology came along and people liked it better, the iPod, the satellite radio, things like that.
[22:08.550 --> 22:10.970]  So they said, well, people aren't going to listen to commercials.
[22:11.090 --> 22:18.170]  What we'll have is have the DJs work into their conversations local sponsor discussions.
[22:18.170 --> 22:26.890]  So instead of talking about something relevant, they were making up nonsense about certain products, whether it's Coke or Pepsi.
[22:27.090 --> 22:37.290]  But things have really come full circle because there was a point where this station was quite close to possibly being sold because there was so much money for signals out there.
[22:37.830 --> 22:38.490]  Our station, this station.
[22:38.490 --> 22:39.650]  Yeah, this station, WBAI.
[22:39.750 --> 22:43.870]  And that threat never really goes away because the value just keeps going up.
[22:43.970 --> 22:46.310]  You could probably get millions and millions of dollars for the frequency.
[22:46.490 --> 22:49.470]  We're 99.5 in New York City, the middle of the FM dial.
[22:50.290 --> 22:53.170]  You can't find a frequency like that anymore.
[22:53.350 --> 22:54.170]  So yeah, believe it.
[22:54.670 --> 23:00.110]  If this station were to do badly, that would be something that would have to be considered.
[23:00.350 --> 23:05.210]  And that would be a horrible, horrible thing because you'd never get a station of this power at that location in the dial.
[23:05.450 --> 23:07.550]  Please call up 212-209-2950.
[23:07.930 --> 23:08.570]  Show your support.
[23:08.730 --> 23:16.690]  Keep this place going because there's so much more magic that we have to share, so much more to cover and to give you a voice out there.
[23:17.170 --> 23:18.210]  Let me just run down.
[23:18.350 --> 23:24.690]  We have the off-the-hook library of all time for $125.
[23:24.890 --> 23:26.210]  You get a T-shirt.
[23:26.210 --> 23:27.410]  With that, you get an off-the-hook T-shirt.
[23:27.530 --> 23:31.410]  If you just want the T-shirt, pledge at $25, 212-209-2950.
[23:31.930 --> 23:39.230]  We also have the new 2600 sweatshirt, which I believe you're wearing that, Kevin.
[23:39.730 --> 23:40.270]  It's true.
[23:40.450 --> 23:41.370]  You are wearing that, aren't you?
[23:41.450 --> 23:41.710]  I am.
[23:41.850 --> 23:42.130]  All right.
[23:42.310 --> 23:42.730]  Tell us.
[23:43.010 --> 23:46.090]  Describe it and describe maybe some of the experiences you've had since wearing it.
[23:46.650 --> 23:47.630]  Well, it is gray.
[23:48.130 --> 23:51.010]  It says 2600 across the front with the zipper.
[23:51.510 --> 23:52.370]  Very important fact.
[23:52.510 --> 23:53.410]  The zipper goes down the middle.
[23:53.510 --> 23:53.710]  Yes.
[23:53.710 --> 23:54.170]  Well, obviously.
[23:54.350 --> 23:54.510]  Okay.
[23:55.050 --> 23:57.350]  So it's between the six and the first zero.
[23:57.830 --> 23:58.750]  That is also true.
[23:58.850 --> 23:59.810]  Two six on one side and 00.
[24:00.070 --> 24:00.230]  Okay.
[24:00.690 --> 24:02.750]  And then I believe something in the back as well.
[24:02.870 --> 24:03.270]  There is.
[24:03.410 --> 24:04.050]  What does that say?
[24:04.210 --> 24:04.510]  Hacker.
[24:04.910 --> 24:05.610]  The word hacker?
[24:05.710 --> 24:05.930]  Yes.
[24:06.110 --> 24:06.330]  All right.
[24:06.350 --> 24:10.670]  So you have a lot of guts to label yourself a hacker and walk around amongst the public.
[24:10.750 --> 24:11.630]  You do wear this outside.
[24:11.750 --> 24:12.190]  All the time.
[24:12.270 --> 24:12.530]  All right.
[24:12.530 --> 24:13.150]  It's never off.
[24:13.270 --> 24:13.810]  Never off, yeah.
[24:13.970 --> 24:14.770]  It is that comfortable.
[24:14.890 --> 24:15.870]  It does kind of smell.
[24:16.590 --> 24:18.330]  I thought it was my headphones, but...
[24:18.330 --> 24:19.450]  Yeah, but that's not the jacket.
[24:19.470 --> 24:20.010]  That's just Kevin.
[24:20.290 --> 24:22.350]  So let's... And the hood?
[24:22.430 --> 24:23.250]  The hood works fine?
[24:23.490 --> 24:23.670]  The hood?
[24:23.770 --> 24:25.310]  It blocks the rain and snow.
[24:25.470 --> 24:26.570]  And it makes you look dangerous, too.
[24:26.730 --> 24:27.110]  Very dangerous.
[24:27.390 --> 24:27.390]  All right.
[24:27.510 --> 24:27.610]  Good.
[24:28.070 --> 24:28.850]  It's a stereotype.
[24:29.210 --> 24:30.810]  212-209-2950.
[24:30.830 --> 24:32.030]  We have four calls on the line.
[24:32.130 --> 24:36.030]  I don't know if people are calling in for the library or the sweatshirts, but yeah.
[24:36.490 --> 24:37.610]  They're very popular.
[24:37.810 --> 24:41.390]  We just started offering them a couple of months ago, and they're flying off the shelves.
[24:41.730 --> 24:44.410]  So you can have one fly towards you for a pledge of $75.
[24:44.770 --> 24:45.590]  And you get the t-shirt, too.
[24:45.670 --> 24:47.130]  You get the off-the-hook t-shirt with that.
[24:47.290 --> 24:48.670]  212-209-2950.
[24:48.890 --> 24:57.210]  For a pledge of $40, $40, you will also get the 2,600 DMCA coffee mugs.
[24:57.270 --> 25:01.210]  DMCA, of course, being the Digital Millennium Copy... No, that's the wrong one.
[25:01.250 --> 25:02.530]  Digital Millennium Coffee Act.
[25:02.990 --> 25:03.710]  I don't know what the other one is.
[25:04.690 --> 25:06.170]  And that basically...
[25:06.170 --> 25:07.210]  It's nothing you should worry about.
[25:07.450 --> 25:07.790]  It's just...
[25:07.790 --> 25:09.630]  Just don't make a backup copy of your mug.
[25:09.730 --> 25:10.090]  Well, no.
[25:10.290 --> 25:10.910]  Obviously not.
[25:11.050 --> 25:11.390]  But no.
[25:11.610 --> 25:13.910]  You're not supposed to use it for anything other than coffee.
[25:13.910 --> 25:14.470]  That's all.
[25:14.670 --> 25:14.770]  Okay.
[25:14.970 --> 25:15.150]  All right.
[25:15.250 --> 25:17.010]  And I don't think people have trouble with that kind of restriction.
[25:17.510 --> 25:18.470]  You'll get two mugs.
[25:18.570 --> 25:20.730]  You'll get one black mug with white writing.
[25:20.870 --> 25:23.510]  You'll get one white mug with black writing.
[25:23.870 --> 25:25.230]  Or did I get that backwards?
[25:26.330 --> 25:27.270]  Yeah, the other way around.
[25:28.130 --> 25:29.530]  212-209-2950.
[25:29.590 --> 25:30.410]  Pledge of $40.
[25:30.910 --> 25:37.230]  You'll get the 2 DMCA Hacker 2600 coffee mugs along with an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[25:37.390 --> 25:38.530]  So all kinds of ways.
[25:38.750 --> 25:39.990]  You can't avoid the t-shirt.
[25:40.070 --> 25:41.150]  You're getting the t-shirt no matter what.
[25:41.510 --> 25:42.930]  212-209-2950.
[25:43.050 --> 25:43.930]  We have three calls on the line.
[25:44.050 --> 25:47.010]  So keep those calls coming in because we have some special guests that we want to welcome.
[25:47.010 --> 25:47.350]  Hey, Manuel.
[25:47.790 --> 25:50.470]  What if I want to learn something with my pledge?
[25:50.630 --> 25:53.910]  And I know I'll learn a lot from listening to the radio.
[25:54.170 --> 25:56.270]  But what if I want to learn something in printed form?
[25:56.590 --> 26:00.410]  If you want to learn something in printed form, are you trying to segue us into the next section?
[26:00.550 --> 26:02.550]  Is that what you're... I'm being very subtle about it.
[26:02.630 --> 26:03.450]  Push us into this.
[26:03.610 --> 26:04.070]  Well, okay.
[26:04.170 --> 26:08.510]  We are about to go into a new section of the program, 25 After.
[26:08.830 --> 26:11.710]  And we just want to make sure that everybody knows what we're offering.
[26:11.890 --> 26:13.410]  And we want to keep those phone calls coming in.
[26:13.510 --> 26:14.670]  We have three on the line right now.
[26:14.810 --> 26:16.190]  But how many volunteers were down there?
[26:16.810 --> 26:17.530]  More than three.
[26:17.750 --> 26:18.490]  Like 20 or something.
[26:18.610 --> 26:19.530]  Maybe not that many.
[26:19.630 --> 26:20.130]  There are a lot.
[26:20.270 --> 26:21.210]  More than three for sure.
[26:21.310 --> 26:21.470]  Yeah.
[26:21.610 --> 26:23.810]  And you might even get to talk to an off-the-hook personality.
[26:23.970 --> 26:26.210]  Obviously not one of us, but there are a couple down there, I think.
[26:26.690 --> 26:28.450]  212-209-2950.
[26:28.750 --> 26:32.070]  Again, just to wrap up one more time, and then we'll go into our special feature.
[26:33.070 --> 26:36.850]  For $25, you'll get the $2,600 off-the-hook t-shirt.
[26:37.090 --> 26:39.590]  And every pledge of $25 or above gets that.
[26:39.870 --> 26:47.190]  For $40, you'll get the two 2,600 coffee mugs with the restriction that you can only drink coffee from them, DMCA.
[26:48.050 --> 26:52.670]  $75, you'll get the 2,600 hooded sweatshirt, the new version.
[26:53.010 --> 26:56.730]  And for $125, you'll get the off-the-hook lifetime audio subscription.
[26:57.170 --> 27:01.930]  $125 every single program that we've done from the past well into the future.
[27:02.430 --> 27:06.250]  And again, for all of those, you get the off-the-hook t-shirt as well.
[27:06.250 --> 27:08.490]  212-209-2950.
[27:08.490 --> 27:09.450]  Four calls on the line.
[27:09.630 --> 27:10.650]  Let's keep those calls coming in.
[27:11.230 --> 27:22.330]  Okay, now, as you know, we meet many, many people in the course of doing the radio program, in the course of holding conferences, and the various other things that go on as part of the whole hacker culture.
[27:22.690 --> 27:33.070]  And one of those people who we've met over the years is an amazing person, works, runs No Storage Publishing, named Bill Pollack.
[27:33.330 --> 27:34.290]  Bill, are you on the phone?
[27:34.290 --> 27:35.150]  I'm here.
[27:35.370 --> 27:41.090]  And you basically have been publishing all kinds of interesting books for the last...
[27:41.090 --> 27:42.330]  How many years have you been doing this?
[27:42.870 --> 27:43.350]  Too long.
[27:44.330 --> 27:45.290]  Quite a while.
[27:45.630 --> 27:52.210]  I've been book publishing for 20 years, but we've had this company for about 15 years now, 14 years.
[27:52.490 --> 27:56.010]  All right, someone's breathing heavily into the phone, so I'm going to have to ask them to back off.
[27:56.170 --> 27:56.650]  That's Bernie.
[27:56.910 --> 28:00.430]  All right, well, whoever's breathing heavily into the phone, it's very distracting.
[28:00.550 --> 28:02.790]  Bernie hears about technical manuals, he gets all worked up.
[28:02.810 --> 28:07.230]  It's understandable, and we don't begrudge him that, but we are on the radio, and the FCC does listen.
[28:08.170 --> 28:13.750]  Okay, so Bill, now, you have this company, No Starch Press, is it, right?
[28:13.910 --> 28:13.910]  Right.
[28:13.950 --> 28:14.590]  Yeah, No Starch Press.
[28:14.690 --> 28:17.650]  And you've been publishing... how many books do you publish?
[28:18.010 --> 28:19.310]  We don't publish a lot, actually.
[28:19.450 --> 28:22.830]  I mean, we only... we maybe publish... we keep trying to publish more every year.
[28:22.850 --> 28:26.970]  I say we're going to double the number we do, and every year we seem to end up in the same place.
[28:27.130 --> 28:27.310]  Uh-huh.
[28:27.310 --> 28:27.310]  Uh-huh.
[28:27.850 --> 28:30.010]  Some 13 books, 15 books a year.
[28:30.290 --> 28:31.130]  That's a lot.
[28:31.570 --> 28:36.910]  It seems like a lot, but it's nothing compared to... there are computer book publishers that put out 300 books a year.
[28:37.050 --> 28:38.430]  Yeah, but most of them are crap.
[28:38.810 --> 28:42.050]  I mean, pardon my saying... I didn't say that, but... Well, no, I said that.
[28:42.090 --> 28:44.410]  You don't have to agree, but come on, we all know that's true.
[28:44.990 --> 28:49.370]  Your books, your books, if you look at what you offer, they stand out.
[28:49.490 --> 28:52.330]  They're something that really... they captivate you.
[28:52.490 --> 28:54.030]  We are very picky.
[28:54.230 --> 28:56.130]  I mean, we kill a lot of projects.
[28:56.130 --> 29:00.250]  I mean, we're very careful about the books that we pick, and we work everything over.
[29:00.410 --> 29:06.450]  I mean, we have a lot of internal discussions, sometimes arguments, about the books that we're going to do.
[29:06.650 --> 29:10.730]  The goal, really, is to publish a book that, when it comes out, we're proud of.
[29:10.910 --> 29:11.790]  And we don't hit them.
[29:11.890 --> 29:16.230]  You know, we've had our clunkers, but we really do try to publish.
[29:16.230 --> 29:18.570]  We publish for, you know, hackers and geeks.
[29:19.030 --> 29:27.630]  Well, I want to read you a review of one of your books that came out fairly recently, called Hacking the Art of Exploitation.
[29:28.490 --> 29:32.870]  Undeniably, Hacking the Art of Exploitation is one of the quintessential books for its subject.
[29:32.990 --> 29:38.370]  The book this good is a rare find, and certainly worth the read for any individual interested in security.
[29:38.490 --> 29:40.470]  And that came from a Slashdot review.
[29:41.330 --> 29:44.130]  And those aren't easy to come by.
[29:45.030 --> 29:50.110]  We have the author of Hacking the Art of Exploitation joining us on the line.
[29:50.430 --> 29:51.350]  John Erickson, are you there?
[29:52.010 --> 29:52.950]  Yeah, hi, what's up?
[29:53.030 --> 29:54.570]  And you're talking to us through Skype, I believe.
[29:55.150 --> 29:55.470]  Yeah.
[29:55.850 --> 29:57.290]  Okay, you do sound a little different.
[29:59.670 --> 30:09.590]  But, so now this book came out, actually this book was published a few years ago, but the second edition just came out, which is, I believe, more than double the size, and with all kinds of updates and things.
[30:09.690 --> 30:10.510]  Tell us something about the book.
[30:11.730 --> 30:17.250]  Well, I wanted to try to make it easier for people who don't know how to program already to understand.
[30:18.910 --> 30:24.370]  So, I introduce programming, like programming using C.
[30:25.410 --> 30:29.370]  So it starts from basically just pseudocode, working up to that.
[30:29.990 --> 30:34.570]  But one thing that I do is I teach the x86 assembly along with the C.
[30:34.850 --> 30:42.470]  Because I think it's an important concept that to understand that a C program never runs needs to be compiled first.
[30:42.470 --> 30:46.790]  And I think most security problems come from programmers that don't understand that.
[30:47.390 --> 30:49.950]  And the hackers understand the code it's compiled into.
[30:50.650 --> 30:52.810]  And you can't beat that.
[30:53.810 --> 30:54.890]  No, definitely true.
[30:56.050 --> 30:57.810]  What you can beat, though, is your Skype connection.
[30:57.890 --> 30:59.510]  I got to say, it's really...
[30:59.510 --> 31:00.510]  Yeah, the internet stinks.
[31:01.770 --> 31:03.630]  My cell phone's worse, though, so...
[31:03.630 --> 31:04.250]  Well, I don't know.
[31:04.390 --> 31:05.470]  We're used to cell phone connections.
[31:05.590 --> 31:06.610]  We talk to Bernie every week.
[31:06.610 --> 31:09.430]  This is kind of a different sound for us.
[31:10.310 --> 31:14.010]  But yeah, it's interesting that you're talking to us through the internet.
[31:14.110 --> 31:19.310]  And that's something that I guess, if you listen to past shows, you'll hear that that was unknown to us years ago.
[31:20.070 --> 31:20.950]  Unknown to everybody.
[31:21.930 --> 31:25.410]  Okay, so Hacking the Art of Exploitation just came out.
[31:25.530 --> 31:27.470]  It's 488 pages.
[31:28.430 --> 31:34.210]  And give us a sense as to the kind of background you have that led you into this world.
[31:35.450 --> 31:39.430]  Well, I mean, I started programming when I was pretty young.
[31:39.730 --> 31:41.130]  I started on a VIC-20.
[31:41.550 --> 31:44.650]  And I sort of wanted to program games.
[31:44.870 --> 31:46.630]  So I wanted to play the games, really.
[31:46.730 --> 31:48.630]  So I just checked out books from the library.
[31:48.750 --> 31:49.750]  They had a source code in the back.
[31:49.970 --> 31:53.010]  And I learned how to type copying them and then played them.
[31:54.310 --> 32:02.970]  So another thing with this book, it has a live CD that comes with it that boots into the exact environment, all the examples are in.
[32:03.950 --> 32:09.830]  I think it's sort of interesting right now that almost all computers are x86-based.
[32:10.150 --> 32:28.870]  So with a live CD that can just use that processor, anyone could check the book out from the library, put it into their computer, have a complete environment for programming and generating network packets or doing whatever you want, and also follow along with all the examples.
[32:29.410 --> 32:40.450]  Because I think one of the most difficult parts in learning a lot of these techniques is setting up an environment that is exactly the same as the text that is describing it.
[32:41.690 --> 32:45.210]  So that was a major change.
[32:45.390 --> 32:46.670]  It's a major change with this edition.
[32:46.890 --> 32:56.070]  So what are some of the techniques that you're sort of alluding to, but... Oh, well, you know, buffer overflows in general, format strings.
[32:57.470 --> 33:13.070]  I also talk a lot more about network programming, like how to use sockets, how to write to raw sockets, how to use LibNet for sniffing, how all the different layers are structured so you can understand the data.
[33:13.430 --> 33:18.390]  And like really, once you understand that, you can figure out and make up your own stuff.
[33:19.470 --> 33:23.630]  So there's sort of like a, by the end, you write your own web server.
[33:23.870 --> 33:28.330]  And then it's a web server that like logs to files and stuff.
[33:28.470 --> 33:41.510]  And then you have to exploit it, but then exploit it without logging to a file and fork a child process and put the stack back together and start the process running again.
[33:41.810 --> 33:43.090]  So, you know...
[33:43.090 --> 33:44.750]  John tends to undersell himself.
[33:45.070 --> 33:47.110]  I mean, he's just described something pretty amazing.
[33:49.770 --> 33:52.270]  It should be cool for people reading, I think.
[33:53.090 --> 33:53.250]  Yeah.
[33:53.310 --> 33:59.110]  Now, speaking of that, I understand that both Redbird and Bernie have read the first edition of this book.
[33:59.190 --> 33:59.870]  Is that true, Redbird?
[33:59.910 --> 34:02.150]  I read this book, yeah, a bunch of years ago, actually.
[34:02.310 --> 34:03.330]  I think... When did it first come out?
[34:03.390 --> 34:04.570]  Like 2003 or something like that?
[34:04.670 --> 34:04.970]  2003, yeah.
[34:05.070 --> 34:05.210]  Yeah.
[34:05.390 --> 34:07.190]  So I did pick it up back then.
[34:07.310 --> 34:08.810]  And it was actually... It was great.
[34:08.930 --> 34:18.990]  I mean, there were no other books that I saw like it that actually explained everything from basically the basics that you need to know to understand how things were, how buffer overflows work.
[34:19.110 --> 34:21.090]  For instance, you explain the stack.
[34:21.090 --> 34:27.390]  You explain what happens when you overflow the buffer and how you can overwrite different memory locations and stuff.
[34:27.490 --> 34:42.790]  I mean, it's just... It really starts at the basics and works your way up and really gives you the background that you need to know to understand how a lot of exploits work and how, you know, even... It makes you a better programmer because you understand how these flaws work.
[34:42.890 --> 34:47.110]  You know, you mentioned format string problems and whatnot.
[34:47.170 --> 34:57.350]  So it's really a great book if you want to understand exploits, if you want to teach yourself how to code better, if you want to really understand... I mean, security is a major issue today.
[34:57.350 --> 35:11.770]  And a lot of the problem is there's a lack of education and people really don't understand the fundamentals of how things really can... can work against you if you don't understand the technology.
[35:11.970 --> 35:16.170]  So it's a great book that really starts at the basics and works its way up.
[35:16.290 --> 35:20.570]  And I don't know what the differences are between the version that I read and the new version, but...
[35:20.570 --> 35:22.470]  Well, in this version, there's even more introduction.
[35:22.470 --> 35:25.430]  So I'm trying to write it to an audience that knows nothing about programming.
[35:25.610 --> 35:33.510]  So it starts from, honestly, I've got pseudocode and, like, driving directions of our program and then builds up to C and then builds up to...
[35:33.950 --> 35:40.730]  Also, as you're learning C, I think a lot of people who have, you know, classical educations learn C from the top-down.
[35:40.890 --> 35:46.630]  They learn it from a high level and they never understand, or they understand way later, the low-level assembly instructions.
[35:46.990 --> 35:49.230]  In this, I try to teach it in different ways.
[35:49.230 --> 35:56.690]  So I teach, all right, here's a loop and here's a for-loop or whatnot in C, but this is what it looks like in assembly when you compile it.
[35:56.690 --> 36:07.810]  And I try to make those connections as you're learning C, because the biggest security mistake that most programmers make really is not understanding that C programs don't run.
[36:09.990 --> 36:13.630]  We're speaking with John Erickson, author of Hacking the Art of Exploitation.
[36:13.650 --> 36:17.830]  And as you may have guessed, we're offering that book actually as part of a two-book package.
[36:17.830 --> 36:23.290]  If you want to get the jump on it without even finding out what the second book is, give a call to 212-209-2950.
[36:23.490 --> 36:24.390]  The pledge is $75.
[36:24.390 --> 36:25.550]  We'll get you both books.
[36:26.570 --> 36:32.150]  Now, John, you also are... you've spoken at the HOPE conferences in the past, and you'll be speaking at the next one, I believe.
[36:32.970 --> 36:35.810]  And what kinds of topics do you discuss at the conference?
[36:37.250 --> 36:48.590]  Well, I sort of wanted to talk about Windows stuff in this book, but the key purpose of this book was to have it so anyone could just put the CD in and follow along with everything.
[36:48.590 --> 36:54.930]  So you can't really package a Windows VM at a certain patch level or anything like that.
[36:55.130 --> 37:03.310]  So, and also, one thing that I want to sort of... the point I want to drive home is that it's all just the same techniques, just used on different data structures.
[37:03.590 --> 37:16.610]  So I want to talk about different critical data structures in Windows, and then how to use them to write shell code for Windows, or how to use them to exploit Windows, or to, you know, bypass stack canaries.
[37:18.870 --> 37:25.570]  Okay, well, it sounds like it could be good for people who know a lot, people who know just a little bit and want to know more.
[37:26.430 --> 37:29.430]  It's a great way in, Hacking the Art of Exploitation.
[37:30.430 --> 37:32.590]  Now, okay, that's one of the books we're offering.
[37:32.590 --> 37:36.490]  The second book in this $75 package, you guys ready?
[37:36.570 --> 37:37.370]  You're never going to guess.
[37:37.370 --> 37:44.050]  It's called Forbidden Lego, Build the Models Your Parents Warned You Against.
[37:44.710 --> 37:46.550]  Yeah, Forbidden Lego.
[37:46.630 --> 37:48.470]  And this is also published by NoStarch.
[37:49.030 --> 37:58.370]  Now, Bill, I'm going to ask you to sort of describe the kinds of things that are in this book and why hackers would be interested in Legos, of all things.
[37:59.750 --> 38:03.390]  Well, I mean, the why, it's kind of hard to answer.
[38:03.530 --> 38:14.130]  I just know that people are, but I mean, the thing about Forbidden Lego, we had a lot of discussion, by the way, about whether it should be against or about in that subtitle.
[38:14.230 --> 38:18.950]  We ended up, my editorial people said it should be against, but anyway, that's a separate discussion.
[38:19.010 --> 38:22.250]  Well, what's something your parents warned you were against building with a Lego?
[38:22.250 --> 38:25.310]  Making a full woman out of Legos.
[38:25.950 --> 38:26.730]  It was a play-off book.
[38:26.730 --> 38:27.370]  Wow, you can do that?
[38:27.590 --> 38:29.290]  Yes, but it's very scratchy.
[38:29.410 --> 38:30.290]  I recommend against it.
[38:30.470 --> 38:30.770]  All right.
[38:31.110 --> 38:35.590]  Do you remember that book, We Are the People Your Parents Warned You Against, or About, I think it was, or whatever?
[38:35.770 --> 38:36.450]  I've heard that said.
[38:36.490 --> 38:38.750]  It's a book from, you know, like Abby Hoffman, or...
[38:38.750 --> 38:44.910]  Anyway, this is a play-off of that subtitle, but there are some very clear Lego rules.
[38:45.270 --> 38:48.050]  The Lego company is always concerned about liability issues.
[38:48.050 --> 38:53.750]  You know, you make something, and it shoots a Lego brick into a kid's eye, and you get damaged, and Lego gets sued.
[38:53.850 --> 38:54.590]  Lego's a big target.
[38:54.790 --> 38:57.650]  So the book actually discusses some of those rules.
[38:59.330 --> 39:01.430]  The authors are former Lego ones.
[39:02.230 --> 39:12.950]  Ulrich Billigard was a former lead Lego designer, and Mike Dooley was one of the main architects, as I understand, of the Lego Mindstorms software, the RCX, Lego robotic system software.
[39:14.050 --> 39:23.670]  So this book basically breaks all Lego rules by teaching you how to make a gun that shoots beams, a paper plane launcher, and this is like a high-velocity paper airplane launcher.
[39:23.790 --> 39:26.430]  I mean, it really... if you stood in front of it, it would hurt.
[39:26.790 --> 39:30.790]  So they do mechanical... they don't just stand there, they do mechanical things.
[39:30.950 --> 39:31.850]  They all do things, yes.
[39:31.970 --> 39:33.130]  You can make a Lego gun?
[39:34.270 --> 39:38.790]  The... there's a video on YouTube of the Lego gun, which I posted a while back.
[39:38.790 --> 39:41.030]  It's only like 30 seconds long, but it's pretty amazing.
[39:41.230 --> 39:45.370]  It's a... it's a... you can go look for it and look... like... I think it's like the most popular Lego gun video.
[39:45.650 --> 39:46.950]  It's this rapid-fire gun.
[39:46.950 --> 39:57.990]  You pull the trigger, and it's all... I think he uses... I want to say two batteries, and the whole thing is amped up, and it's like over... the motor's over-driven, and this shoots rapid-fire beams, rapid-fire.
[39:58.190 --> 39:59.210]  What does it shoot?
[39:59.490 --> 39:59.870]  Beams.
[40:00.030 --> 40:02.710]  The Lego beams are the long brick, the long pieces.
[40:02.710 --> 40:04.710]  And what do they feel like when they hit you?
[40:05.110 --> 40:05.770]  They would hurt.
[40:05.930 --> 40:06.130]  Okay.
[40:07.010 --> 40:08.610]  I guess that's the point, but...
[40:09.190 --> 40:11.470]  has this station ever offered a gun on the air before?
[40:12.030 --> 40:13.890]  We're not offering a gun on the air.
[40:14.090 --> 40:16.950]  So far, every product described results in pain.
[40:17.090 --> 40:19.330]  Yeah, the knowledge of how to build a Lego gun.
[40:19.350 --> 40:20.550]  Can I build a Lego taser?
[40:21.250 --> 40:22.270]  What is with Americans?
[40:22.490 --> 40:26.090]  Everything has to wind up being, you know, constructed into a gun, you know?
[40:26.150 --> 40:29.530]  No, well, there's a candy... there's more manual... there aren't other things there.
[40:29.650 --> 40:31.910]  All right, well, you've got the phones lighting up on that, I've got to say.
[40:31.910 --> 40:34.110]  Hey, 212-209-2950.
[40:34.270 --> 40:41.710]  You'll get both books, Forbidden Lego, as well as Hacking the Art of Exploitation for a pledge of $75, and you'll also get the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[40:42.030 --> 40:44.570]  So you can combine them and learn how to exploit Legos, maybe.
[40:44.670 --> 40:46.510]  Yeah, I guess you could do that, too.
[40:46.650 --> 40:50.710]  One reason the phones will light up is this book's been out of stock for about six to eight weeks.
[40:50.910 --> 40:53.150]  No one's been able to get this, basically, since the end of last year.
[40:53.710 --> 40:55.870]  We're getting more... it's printed four-color.
[40:55.870 --> 40:58.150]  It's a beautiful printing, but it comes from overseas.
[40:58.710 --> 41:01.110]  So there actually probably aren't any in stores.
[41:01.510 --> 41:04.110]  It's like the Anarchist Lego cookbook you've got going on.
[41:04.170 --> 41:07.470]  Yeah, well, I've been actually trying to find someone to write something like that.
[41:07.630 --> 41:11.030]  But the next book that we're doing is on Lego Militaria.
[41:11.430 --> 41:12.510]  This guy's pretty amazing.
[41:12.630 --> 41:15.410]  But his models don't shoot things, but they're models of tanks.
[41:15.570 --> 41:17.950]  They are amazing models of tanks and guns and stuff like that.
[41:17.950 --> 41:27.590]  And then there's another guy that I'm... maybe he's listening, maybe he'll actually send me his proposal, who does amazing stuff with... he makes mechanical models of shot dispensers.
[41:27.770 --> 41:32.710]  And he has something called a saltine guillotine that cuts pieces of cheese and puts it on crackers.
[41:32.870 --> 41:34.010]  These are just mechanical models.
[41:34.130 --> 41:42.630]  But so this is all very consistent with sort of the hacker ethos of, you know, building things, making stuff, and bending the rules.
[41:42.730 --> 41:51.090]  Well, I'll tell you, Bill, this is one thing that I've dreamed about having at the Next Hope Conference is some massive Lego display or demonstrations.
[41:51.270 --> 41:55.550]  They do this in Germany at the Chaos Communications Congresses.
[41:55.650 --> 41:57.230]  They have all kinds of Lego displays.
[41:58.030 --> 42:00.530]  I know, not Kevin, you're interested in Legos.
[42:00.750 --> 42:02.030]  I am very interested in Legos.
[42:02.050 --> 42:03.630]  You're trying to major in Legos in schools?
[42:03.830 --> 42:04.210]  It's true.
[42:04.450 --> 42:05.730]  I'm majoring in Legos.
[42:05.890 --> 42:08.330]  And you actually got the paperwork signed.
[42:09.090 --> 42:09.770]  Signed and everything.
[42:09.910 --> 42:10.330]  Good for you.
[42:10.550 --> 42:11.250]  What was that?
[42:11.390 --> 42:11.810]  Good enough.
[42:14.130 --> 42:21.070]  So, okay, tell us, do you think we can find people to actually make a huge Lego display at the conference?
[42:21.130 --> 42:22.110]  Because that would be really cool.
[42:22.190 --> 42:23.250]  And I think it would draw a lot of people.
[42:23.910 --> 42:24.990]  You're asking me or what?
[42:24.990 --> 42:25.730]  I'm asking everybody.
[42:26.030 --> 42:28.650]  I mean, I can probably get you Lego people.
[42:28.790 --> 42:32.970]  The question is, you know, we're going to try to get Ulrich there, the lead author on this book.
[42:33.010 --> 42:36.810]  And I'm going to see if we can get Anthony, who's this guy who does the saltine guillotine.
[42:36.950 --> 42:41.750]  I mean, he is the most amazing, I wouldn't say the most, but he makes amazing, brilliant stuff.
[42:42.690 --> 42:44.410]  And there are people that do...
[42:44.410 --> 42:48.670]  The thing that a lot of people have heard about is the Lego Mindstorm stuff, where people make robotic stuff.
[42:48.870 --> 42:49.390]  And there are...
[42:49.390 --> 42:51.570]  We have a couple books out.
[42:51.710 --> 42:54.390]  Actually, a third one just came out on a building with the NXT kit.
[42:55.470 --> 42:57.150]  One of them is kind of a manual for that.
[42:57.210 --> 42:57.930]  Another one is...
[42:57.930 --> 43:02.410]  One of the models in one of the books teaches you how to actually build a slot machine, which is...
[43:02.410 --> 43:03.370]  It works.
[43:03.510 --> 43:04.310]  It has a coin store.
[43:04.450 --> 43:05.290]  It has payout and everything.
[43:05.510 --> 43:06.310]  This is awesome.
[43:06.590 --> 43:08.030]  212-209-2950.
[43:08.110 --> 43:09.230]  We have five calls on the line.
[43:09.230 --> 43:11.070]  So I think we're striking a chord here.
[43:11.810 --> 43:13.510]  Do you get the Lego book if you call?
[43:13.630 --> 43:17.830]  Yes, you get the Lego book and you get Hacking the Art of Exploitation, two amazing books.
[43:17.990 --> 43:18.310]  How much?
[43:18.450 --> 43:19.030]  For $75.
[43:19.070 --> 43:21.850]  And you also get the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[43:22.450 --> 43:25.150]  And most importantly of all, you get the radio station.
[43:25.150 --> 43:27.050]  You get the radio station to remain on the air.
[43:27.130 --> 43:29.370]  Yeah, we don't go out of business and be playing Lynyrd Skynyrd.
[43:29.530 --> 43:30.330]  No, you don't want that.
[43:30.470 --> 43:31.330]  Does anybody still do that?
[43:31.470 --> 43:31.790]  Yes.
[43:31.890 --> 43:32.150]  All right.
[43:32.150 --> 43:34.710]  Given that the list price on the books is $75.
[43:35.570 --> 43:35.930]  Yeah.
[43:36.650 --> 43:38.410]  Actually, it's a good deal.
[43:38.550 --> 43:40.550]  Usually, what we ask people to do...
[43:40.550 --> 43:40.630]  What?
[43:40.670 --> 43:41.570]  You have cash on the table.
[43:41.690 --> 43:42.810]  No, this is not enough cash.
[43:43.150 --> 43:44.170]  This is not enough cash.
[43:44.270 --> 43:44.650]  Well, work on it.
[43:45.050 --> 43:48.230]  But usually what we do is we have things that we offer to people.
[43:48.270 --> 43:52.130]  And we all know that you can probably get the things for a better price someplace else.
[43:52.210 --> 43:52.830]  That's not the point.
[43:52.890 --> 43:53.950]  That's not why you should be calling.
[43:54.030 --> 43:55.950]  You should be calling to support the radio station.
[43:56.010 --> 43:56.590]  It's a donation.
[43:56.590 --> 44:04.250]  It's an investment in the place to keep it going, to keep our voices on the air, to keep these alternative thoughts and weird ideas and things.
[44:04.410 --> 44:08.130]  If you like that, if that means something to you, consider the fact that we have no commercials.
[44:08.210 --> 44:09.850]  We never did, never will.
[44:10.230 --> 44:12.830]  If that matters, 212-209-2950.
[44:12.850 --> 44:15.270]  And we always try and send you something in return.
[44:15.410 --> 44:17.910]  In this particular case, you're getting something for equal value.
[44:18.010 --> 44:19.770]  So really, it pays off.
[44:19.910 --> 44:22.490]  And you can also just call and give $10 or $20.
[44:22.710 --> 44:25.550]  Or you can call and give $100 and say you don't want any of the premium items.
[44:25.550 --> 44:27.470]  Your money actually goes a little bit farther at that point.
[44:27.550 --> 44:29.710]  And we take Visa, MasterCard, American Express, all that.
[44:29.810 --> 44:31.290]  You can get frequent flyer miles.
[44:31.830 --> 44:32.730]  You can figure this out.
[44:32.790 --> 44:33.450]  Yeah, there's a way to do that.
[44:33.550 --> 44:35.010]  212-209-2950.
[44:35.250 --> 44:35.910]  How many calls is that?
[44:35.990 --> 44:36.670]  Six on the line?
[44:36.850 --> 44:37.770]  Okay, let's keep them going.
[44:37.910 --> 44:40.110]  I want to get everybody down there answering phone calls.
[44:40.130 --> 44:40.670]  We have people to thank.
[44:40.750 --> 44:41.610]  We do have people to thank.
[44:41.730 --> 44:43.350]  We have Jennifer in New York, New York.
[44:43.910 --> 44:46.430]  We want to thank Jeremy, who's from Switzerland.
[44:46.770 --> 44:47.610]  Mike from Yonkers.
[44:48.430 --> 44:48.890]  Switzerland, eh?
[44:49.110 --> 44:49.390]  Switzerland.
[44:49.730 --> 44:49.990]  Yonkers.
[44:50.070 --> 44:51.510]  You took all my cards, so you have to keep talking.
[44:51.510 --> 44:52.130]  I have all your cards?
[44:52.230 --> 44:52.690]  Oh, okay.
[44:52.890 --> 44:54.410]  Wolfgang in New York, and that's it.
[44:54.410 --> 44:55.910]  Wow, okay, that's it so far.
[44:55.930 --> 44:56.610]  Well, that's what I have.
[44:56.990 --> 44:58.070]  Look at all these calls coming in.
[44:58.110 --> 45:02.590]  See, the reason you might think I have more cards is because these are the people whose names we cannot say.
[45:02.730 --> 45:03.670]  So why'd they give you the cards?
[45:03.670 --> 45:04.290]  I don't know.
[45:04.390 --> 45:04.550]  Okay.
[45:04.690 --> 45:05.710]  Why can't they say their names?
[45:05.730 --> 45:06.910]  But we do want to thank them.
[45:07.010 --> 45:07.830]  They're famous people.
[45:07.950 --> 45:09.410]  Yes, thanks to the anonymous people out there.
[45:09.550 --> 45:12.430]  It's anonymous people who have made this place what it is.
[45:13.030 --> 45:13.350]  Anonymous.
[45:13.550 --> 45:13.850]  It's true.
[45:13.990 --> 45:14.770]  Anonymous is a good thing.
[45:15.330 --> 45:23.590]  Okay, now, getting back to Legos, because that seems to be a hot topic tonight, and not to take away from the Hacking Art of Exploitation book, too, because I want to talk about both.
[45:24.790 --> 45:26.250]  But people like Legos.
[45:26.390 --> 45:26.750]  That's cool.
[45:26.910 --> 45:27.950]  People do like Legos.
[45:28.170 --> 45:30.490]  And maybe I underestimated until now.
[45:30.610 --> 45:31.370]  Look at these phone lines.
[45:31.490 --> 45:32.930]  How many people do like Legos?
[45:33.350 --> 45:35.190]  We're not selling Legos here.
[45:35.450 --> 45:37.110]  You have to go out and buy your own Legos.
[45:37.410 --> 45:41.350]  We're offering the book, the book Forbidden Legos.
[45:42.190 --> 45:44.430]  Bill, could you tell us how is the book structured?
[45:44.890 --> 45:53.190]  Does it start with maybe a simple thing that your parents warned you against, and then get on to something a little bit more complex, like a nuclear bomb or something with a Lego?
[45:54.970 --> 45:55.770]  Not really.
[45:56.670 --> 45:57.470]  One doesn't...
[45:57.470 --> 46:06.110]  I mean, they start with just kind of a brief background, but mostly it's designed like Lego manual instructions, or it could actually have done Lego manuals as well.
[46:07.130 --> 46:09.670]  So when you open a page, there's like no text.
[46:09.790 --> 46:11.110]  You just see images.
[46:11.270 --> 46:11.950]  It looks like a Lego book.
[46:12.570 --> 46:16.170]  You've got pictures of parts, and people have played with Lego.
[46:16.330 --> 46:19.610]  You'll see how the parts are changing, which tells you what you're supposed to add.
[46:20.310 --> 46:23.290]  And it uses a lot of techniques, parts.
[46:23.610 --> 46:28.930]  And one challenge here, basically in order to do some really kind of off-the-wall Lego, you have to dig around for parts.
[46:29.050 --> 46:37.610]  So just people should know, and this is part of the fun of it, is that you won't always find exactly the part that's required, but they're often substitute parts, so people have substituted parts to make it work.
[46:38.170 --> 46:44.710]  What people get out of this are techniques, like ways to do things, like, for example, how to push the motors to do more than they're designed to do.
[46:45.330 --> 46:49.810]  So you can use the properties of a plastic spoon, for example, to make this catapult.
[46:50.030 --> 46:50.730]  So you use the tension.
[46:51.730 --> 46:58.950]  Basically, the catapult holds the spoon so that the spoon's under tension, and then at a certain point it releases, and it flings an M&M or whatever across the room.
[46:58.990 --> 47:00.510]  And it really does go across the room.
[47:00.650 --> 47:03.350]  Oh, there's going to be all kinds of letters written about this.
[47:03.790 --> 47:05.250]  Yeah, I see the description here.
[47:05.250 --> 47:16.550]  They're using Lego bricks in combination with common household materials from rubber bands and glue to plastic spoons and ping-pong balls, along with some very unorthodox building techniques.
[47:17.230 --> 47:34.170]  You can try your hand at, as you mentioned, a toy gun that shoots Lego plates, a candy catapult, I guess that's the M&M thing, a high-voltage Lego vehicle, a continuous fire ping-pong ball launcher, and other useless but incredibly fun inventions.
[47:34.170 --> 47:34.990]  They all work.
[47:35.130 --> 47:35.810]  They all work.
[47:35.970 --> 47:42.990]  You know, I don't know what they talk about in Denmark or something, but my parents would have never even thought of these things to warn me against them.
[47:43.510 --> 47:45.530]  Yeah, how do the parents know that these even exist?
[47:45.530 --> 47:46.530]  I guess they will now.
[47:46.730 --> 47:47.950]  A little poetic license there.
[47:48.210 --> 47:50.010]  212-209-2950.
[47:50.150 --> 47:55.370]  $75, you get the Forbidden Lego book, and you get Hacking the Art of Exploitation, and you get an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[47:55.590 --> 47:56.230]  And that's not all.
[47:56.270 --> 47:57.110]  We have all kinds of other things.
[47:57.170 --> 47:58.370]  We've got the audio library.
[47:58.910 --> 48:01.050]  We've got the hacker sweatshirts.
[48:01.050 --> 48:02.350]  We've got the coffee mugs.
[48:02.990 --> 48:04.170]  212-209-2950.
[48:04.330 --> 48:05.650]  They know it all down there.
[48:06.010 --> 48:08.130]  We do need to get some more calls in.
[48:08.330 --> 48:08.710]  We do.
[48:08.950 --> 48:09.850]  Oh, look, it went down.
[48:10.050 --> 48:11.850]  Yes, we need to get some more calls in.
[48:11.970 --> 48:12.710]  They're filling out the paperwork.
[48:13.090 --> 48:17.030]  Yeah, we made over $2,000 last time we were on the air in an hour, which is pretty good.
[48:17.290 --> 48:19.130]  And we want to do that for this last show.
[48:19.130 --> 48:30.430]  I think instead of doing pledge drives in the future, you should just simulcast crap radio from other stations and then bust in every now and then to go, give us some money, or you keep here in Z100.
[48:30.970 --> 48:32.110]  You can't lose on this deal.
[48:32.290 --> 48:35.070]  I mean, the Hacking the Art of Exploitation list price is $50.
[48:35.550 --> 48:35.910]  Right, John?
[48:36.130 --> 48:38.210]  You should let them know it's the second edition, too.
[48:38.330 --> 48:38.850]  It's the second edition.
[48:38.910 --> 48:39.850]  I mean, this book just came out.
[48:40.050 --> 48:40.250]  Yeah.
[48:40.350 --> 48:41.690]  This is the new book.
[48:41.850 --> 48:42.930]  We just came out with this book.
[48:43.030 --> 48:47.310]  In fact, we came out with it, and we quickly ran out of stock and had to rush back for reprints.
[48:47.310 --> 48:48.890]  We just printed another 10,000 copies.
[48:49.010 --> 48:50.750]  The book's only been in stores for, like, a month.
[48:51.590 --> 48:53.130]  Forbidden Lego sold out.
[48:53.430 --> 48:56.730]  What happened with Forbidden Lego is that it got picked up by the Daily Mail in the U.K.
[48:57.010 --> 49:00.710]  There's quite a buzz about this book in the U.K., and people saying this is a terrible thing.
[49:00.870 --> 49:02.850]  You know, kids, Lego becomes the evil toy.
[49:03.170 --> 49:05.130]  John, we're going to have to ask you to back off of the phone a little bit.
[49:05.130 --> 49:05.950]  You're breathing again.
[49:07.130 --> 49:07.770]  I'm sorry.
[49:08.030 --> 49:11.070]  I know you have to breathe, but it's just apparently Skype can't handle that.
[49:11.150 --> 49:12.210]  That's what I love about Skype.
[49:12.210 --> 49:13.770]  It sounds like Xbox Live.
[49:13.990 --> 49:17.390]  I keep waiting for him to yell that he's pwned me in Call of Duty 4.
[49:19.570 --> 49:20.150]  Oh, boy.
[49:20.510 --> 49:21.010]  I'm sorry.
[49:21.310 --> 49:22.210]  So, John...
[49:23.330 --> 49:24.330]  Well, actually, John wasn't talking.
[49:24.450 --> 49:25.010]  Bill was talking, right?
[49:25.490 --> 49:27.370]  Yeah, no, I was just saying that this...
[49:27.370 --> 49:28.850]  I mean, these are two really hot books.
[49:29.070 --> 49:30.530]  The Forbidden Lego, like I said, is not...
[49:30.530 --> 49:31.070]  People...
[49:31.070 --> 49:37.610]  I just went to ShmooCon, which is a hacker con in D.C., and we didn't even have any to sell, and people were like, you know, where is this?
[49:37.690 --> 49:39.070]  I've been trying to get this book for two months.
[49:39.550 --> 49:40.850]  So there aren't even any in stores.
[49:41.350 --> 49:42.690]  We're getting them shipped over.
[49:42.890 --> 49:43.850]  They should be in...
[49:44.250 --> 49:45.190]  Well, actually, maybe...
[49:45.190 --> 49:46.150]  Actually, you know, I might be wrong.
[49:46.230 --> 49:49.230]  They might have just gotten into stores in the last week or so.
[49:49.790 --> 49:52.510]  But this book was out of stock for two weeks, and it'll probably be...
[49:52.510 --> 49:53.850]  You know, probably just sell right out again.
[49:54.650 --> 49:55.790]  But the value...
[49:55.790 --> 49:56.870]  You're asking $75.
[49:57.270 --> 49:59.630]  Basically, the list price on the two books is $75.
[49:59.630 --> 50:00.170]  Yeah.
[50:00.370 --> 50:02.030]  So you're killing two birds with one stone.
[50:02.090 --> 50:06.070]  You're getting some really cool books, and you're supporting this radio station.
[50:06.310 --> 50:07.210]  And a T-shirt, too.
[50:07.410 --> 50:10.890]  And people will know that you listen to this radio program if you wanted to know that.
[50:11.470 --> 50:18.610]  And there's all kinds of other wearing apparel that we have as well, and coffee mugs, and audio things.
[50:19.170 --> 50:21.050]  212-209-2950.
[50:21.290 --> 50:23.110]  We're over the $1,000 mark, which is great.
[50:23.110 --> 50:27.130]  And we have a bunch of calls being processed, and we want to get more calls coming in.
[50:27.170 --> 50:29.610]  So I'm still trying to look for synergies between the two books.
[50:29.710 --> 50:34.630]  Is there like a Lego web server that you can then read John's book and learn how to exploit?
[50:36.890 --> 50:39.810]  Well, I wanted to make one comment about John's book first.
[50:40.670 --> 50:43.930]  When John's book came out in 2003, I was at Hope that year.
[50:44.290 --> 50:45.170]  I think it was...
[50:45.170 --> 50:45.850]  Or maybe it was...
[50:45.850 --> 50:46.530]  I don't remember which...
[50:46.530 --> 50:47.110]  That's a good trick.
[50:47.130 --> 50:48.270]  We didn't have a Hope in 2003.
[50:48.390 --> 50:49.270]  Well, I was there.
[50:49.350 --> 50:49.890]  No one else...
[50:49.890 --> 50:51.170]  Okay, it was 2004.
[50:51.410 --> 50:52.310]  That was the lost Hope.
[50:52.710 --> 50:53.970]  Okay, it was 2004.
[50:54.590 --> 51:00.970]  And what happened was all the books about hacking at the time were like the Hacking Exposed series, which are...
[51:00.970 --> 51:03.090]  You know, so many of them just like, you know, go to this website.
[51:03.570 --> 51:05.910]  You notice in talking about this, no one's talking about cracking.
[51:06.090 --> 51:07.030]  It's not a book about cracking.
[51:07.710 --> 51:10.750]  This book was the first book to come out to actually make people smarter.
[51:11.030 --> 51:15.870]  And I'd have people come up to the table and they'd look at the book, they'd open it up and they'd see code and they'd put it right back down.
[51:15.950 --> 51:16.630]  That was the first day.
[51:16.830 --> 51:19.090]  By the second day, everyone was buying the book.
[51:19.690 --> 51:20.850]  But no one had seen...
[51:20.850 --> 51:23.430]  No one had seen this book and I was like, oh God, here we go.
[51:23.490 --> 51:27.690]  They're all running and buying these books about exploits, but they don't even understand what to make of this book.
[51:27.910 --> 51:34.930]  So John's book changed the entire community when it came to offering resources about actually learning how to hack and what hacking means.
[51:35.030 --> 51:36.050]  And hacking is not cracking.
[51:37.850 --> 51:46.270]  And the connection between understanding things, taking things apart, and then sort of reforming them relates to what people do with Lego.
[51:46.450 --> 51:49.110]  It's like, how can you take bricks and make spheres?
[51:49.390 --> 51:55.150]  We have a book called The Unofficial Lego Builder's Guide that actually will teach you how to build spheres with square parts.
[51:55.270 --> 51:56.870]  So you guys publish multiple Lego books.
[51:57.030 --> 51:58.350]  Oh, we have several, yeah, when they're coming.
[51:58.550 --> 52:02.290]  But that book sold, I don't know, 35,000 copies in the first year.
[52:02.670 --> 52:03.630]  Lego sells it directly.
[52:03.830 --> 52:05.030]  It's in Lego retail stores.
[52:05.030 --> 52:06.870]  It's in Lego catalogs.
[52:06.950 --> 52:07.670]  It's in Legoland.
[52:08.690 --> 52:10.450]  It's been translated into several languages.
[52:10.630 --> 52:13.030]  John's book's been translated into at least, I think, 11 languages.
[52:13.670 --> 52:14.110]  Legoland.
[52:14.270 --> 52:16.950]  Now, okay, you know, I'm notoriously ignorant about Legos.
[52:17.110 --> 52:18.470]  Legoland is where?
[52:18.850 --> 52:20.930]  Legoland is in Aarhus in Denmark.
[52:21.370 --> 52:22.470]  In Southern California.
[52:22.850 --> 52:23.530]  Anaheim, I think.
[52:23.530 --> 52:25.810]  So it's what, like a Disney World for Legos or something?
[52:26.110 --> 52:30.630]  It's like big Lego mosaics and sculptures and Lego, I mean, I don't...
[52:30.630 --> 52:32.290]  Is it like a museum or do you interact with them?
[52:32.290 --> 52:33.130]  No, no, it's all outdoors.
[52:33.330 --> 52:34.570]  At least in Anaheim, it's outdoors.
[52:34.750 --> 52:35.010]  Uh-huh.
[52:35.290 --> 52:38.170]  And kids love it and some parents love it and some don't.
[52:38.290 --> 52:42.590]  Now, what would happen if you were to build one of these dangerous Legos over there?
[52:42.590 --> 52:43.630]  But they wouldn't put it in Legoland?
[52:44.430 --> 52:46.870]  What if you surreptitiously just sort of snuck it in or something?
[52:46.870 --> 52:47.770]  They would take it out.
[52:54.050 --> 52:55.310]  Well, you build it on the plane.
[52:55.410 --> 52:57.430]  You know, I shouldn't be even joking about this.
[52:58.830 --> 53:01.530]  That's actually the thing that came up with this UK coverage.
[53:01.670 --> 53:07.490]  People are like, well, terrorists will get hold of this book and they'll make guns out of Lego, which they can get in airplanes.
[53:07.690 --> 53:08.650]  Can you imagine that?
[53:08.870 --> 53:11.490]  Where suddenly Lego is like a national security concern?
[53:11.650 --> 53:11.950]  It's ridiculous.
[53:12.290 --> 53:12.830]  It's absolutely ridiculous.
[53:12.930 --> 53:18.170]  If I see a man nervously putting together Legos on his tray, I know that we're in trouble.
[53:18.170 --> 53:19.570]  So there's going to be a TSA rule.
[53:19.690 --> 53:23.470]  You can bring no more than like, I don't know, 10 Legos on a plane.
[53:24.390 --> 53:26.530]  10 Legos that fit in a quart-sized bag.
[53:26.710 --> 53:29.830]  We laugh now, but in five years, I'll bet we'll be looking at reality.
[53:30.030 --> 53:37.370]  I was interviewed by our friends at Fox News, actually, about this because they picked up this thing in the UK and they felt like this is this horrible thing that was encouraging terrorists.
[53:37.470 --> 53:37.770]  I'm not kidding.
[53:37.910 --> 53:39.130]  And they called me up and did an interview.
[53:40.250 --> 53:40.850]  Oh, wow.
[53:40.990 --> 53:41.750]  And I couldn't believe it.
[53:41.870 --> 53:42.890]  It's like, this is a book.
[53:42.990 --> 53:45.730]  I mean, these are, you know, these are, this is not dangerous.
[53:46.650 --> 53:48.570]  How did the report come out?
[53:49.310 --> 53:50.970]  If you Google it, you'll see it all.
[53:51.110 --> 53:52.030]  I mean, I don't even know.
[53:52.110 --> 53:52.450]  I don't know.
[53:52.910 --> 53:54.070]  I talked to this woman.
[53:54.170 --> 53:56.030]  I don't remember her name because I never listened to that show.
[53:56.290 --> 54:00.010]  But I remember her being very attractive and they all are.
[54:00.290 --> 54:01.050]  And that's all I remember.
[54:01.550 --> 54:13.010]  But speaking of Fox News, if there's any more reason to contribute to the station, to keep it around as the anti-Fox News, please, it's 212-209-2950.
[54:13.010 --> 54:14.550]  Phone lines are wide open now.
[54:14.690 --> 54:22.910]  So if you want to take advantage of any of the deals that we're offering, which we will not be offering in the next few minutes because we're going off very soon, call us 212-209-2950.
[54:23.110 --> 54:27.830]  Again, the two terrific books, Hacking the Art of Exploitation, the second edition by John Erickson.
[54:27.970 --> 54:28.450]  Just out.
[54:28.650 --> 54:29.110]  Just out.
[54:29.210 --> 54:30.110]  Just came out this month.
[54:30.530 --> 54:31.370]  You'll get that.
[54:31.370 --> 54:34.530]  And you'll get the Forbidden Lego book for a pledge of $75.
[54:34.910 --> 54:36.990]  In addition, you'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[54:37.070 --> 54:39.650]  Best deal you can possibly get with these items.
[54:39.870 --> 54:51.630]  But if I wanted every Off the Hook on a DVD so that I could listen to it naked... Well, if you wanted that, that's $125 for all the DVDs going back to 1988 and going deep into the future, and you also get the shirt.
[54:51.830 --> 54:58.750]  But yeah, I was going to say you need not listen to it naked because it comes with a shirt, as does every pledge of $25 or more.
[54:58.890 --> 54:59.410]  Yeah, that's true.
[54:59.570 --> 54:59.850]  That's true.
[54:59.890 --> 55:03.990]  So I could be listening to new wave music and Off the Hook, and it would be just like I was in the 80s.
[55:04.590 --> 55:06.530]  Well, yeah, you could put yourself there, I suppose.
[55:06.970 --> 55:13.450]  For a pledge of $40, you get both the coffee mugs, black one and a white one, and you also get the t-shirt.
[55:13.810 --> 55:19.470]  $75, you get the new 2600 gray hooded sweatshirt, as well as the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[55:19.650 --> 55:20.470]  It's all kinds of things.
[55:20.550 --> 55:23.650]  Everybody pledging 25 and above gets the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[55:23.990 --> 55:25.790]  212-209-2950.
[55:25.950 --> 55:26.690]  Five calls on the line.
[55:26.830 --> 55:30.190]  Let's have one last flurry before we finish off tonight.
[55:31.030 --> 55:40.870]  Looking forward to the Hope Conference, seeing a whole lot of interesting Lego displays, seeing John Erickson give a talk, seeing a lot of our listeners show up in July here in New York City.
[55:41.150 --> 55:42.690]  In fact, we just opened pre-registration.
[55:42.830 --> 55:50.850]  If you go to www.hope.net, you'll see all the details on how you can book a room, how you can get a ticket in advance for the conference.
[55:51.050 --> 55:52.910]  Three days of hacker fun here in New York City.
[55:53.090 --> 55:54.110]  People from around the world.
[55:54.350 --> 55:57.910]  The last hope at the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York City.
[55:58.710 --> 56:06.970]  Laszlo, I guess it's appropriate to close off with some more words about commercial radio and non-commercial radio and things like that since you're in the business or were in the business.
[56:07.210 --> 56:14.830]  Well, it's... you know what always cracks me up is my job now is to make fun of commercial radio because I do the spoof radio stations in Grand Theft Auto.
[56:15.270 --> 56:24.970]  And we get so many emails from people who are still stuck in commercial radio that say you have hit it on the head about how awful things have turned into.
[56:25.270 --> 56:26.550]  And nine calls on the line, by the way.
[56:26.770 --> 56:31.670]  And what's really kind of funny is talking to people that work at clusters now.
[56:31.770 --> 56:35.410]  Clusters are groups of stations where companies have bought all the stations in town.
[56:35.530 --> 56:37.430]  And so they create what are called clusters.
[56:37.810 --> 56:41.070]  I was talking to some people that work up in Boston and Minneapolis.
[56:41.650 --> 56:49.090]  And for the first time in decades, during the summer, radio stations aren't sold out on their commercials.
[56:49.590 --> 56:50.030]  Wow.
[56:50.270 --> 56:54.930]  Because commercial radio is doing such a horrible job that the listeners are leaving it.
[56:55.070 --> 57:03.090]  But that's... the thing about BAI is that we still have listeners and we're still here, but people have to pledge money and keep it around.
[57:03.370 --> 57:05.290]  That's essential to the whole process.
[57:05.530 --> 57:08.770]  It is... I mean, you're not going to hear everything you want to hear at all times.
[57:08.910 --> 57:10.330]  You're going to despise some things you hear.
[57:10.370 --> 57:11.730]  You're going to hear some crazy stuff at times.
[57:11.730 --> 57:18.130]  You are going to hear all sorts of things because we have hundreds of people here and we have seven days a week, 24 hours a day to broadcast all sorts of things.
[57:18.230 --> 57:21.510]  But if you heard one thing that you like, is that not worth it?
[57:21.590 --> 57:23.410]  Is that not worth being a part of this place?
[57:23.550 --> 57:25.290]  212-209-2950.
[57:26.310 --> 57:27.490]  Last couple of minutes.
[57:27.670 --> 57:40.250]  Again, those premiums that we're offering, the book package, $75, the off-the-hook audio package, $125, the coffee mugs, $40, the sweatshirts, $75, the t-shirts, $25, 212-209-2950.
[57:40.750 --> 57:43.970]  They will tell you everything you need to know down there at the tally room.
[57:44.070 --> 57:44.730]  Look at all those calls.
[57:44.910 --> 57:48.550]  We have quite a few coming in right now, probably more than we have volunteers.
[57:48.750 --> 57:55.150]  So if the phone keeps ringing and it eventually gives you a fast busy, just call back because people there definitely want to take your phone call.
[57:55.750 --> 57:58.330]  We're just a bit overwhelmed now, which is a great thing.
[57:58.530 --> 58:01.030]  Thanks so much to everybody calling in and supporting this place.
[58:01.210 --> 58:04.990]  You've ensured our future, our survival, and a whole lot of fun.
[58:05.190 --> 58:06.090]  I want to thank John.
[58:06.250 --> 58:09.690]  I want to thank Bill for joining us tonight and for doing what you do.
[58:10.670 --> 58:11.570]  Yeah, thank you.
[58:12.570 --> 58:15.290]  And we will see you guys at Hope and we'll see lots of Legos at Hope, I hope.
[58:15.530 --> 58:15.830]  I hope.
[58:16.090 --> 58:16.550]  We hope.
[58:16.730 --> 58:16.970]  Yeah, hopefully.
[58:17.330 --> 58:17.490]  All right.
[58:17.550 --> 58:19.010]  Hopefully I won't say that word many more times.
[58:19.130 --> 58:20.090]  Thanks again, everybody.
[58:20.250 --> 58:21.570]  Thanks, Bernie, for being on the phone as well.
[58:21.690 --> 58:22.830]  And thanks everybody in the studio.
[58:23.110 --> 58:25.290]  We'll be back again next week with a normal show.
[58:25.650 --> 58:31.270]  But for those of you calling in now, last couple of minutes, last few seconds, 212-209-2950.
[58:31.430 --> 58:31.610]  Good night.
[01:00:26.110 --> 01:00:28.350]  That is just fantastic.
[01:00:28.710 --> 01:00:30.130]  Man, he's timed it perfectly.