[00:00.000 --> 00:07.920]  Here's a space that we're challenging the daily conventions and our cultural conventions that's been shutting down the voices of veterans.
[00:08.160 --> 00:12.960]  For Free Speech Radio News, I'm Zach Badwarf with Jessica Popovac in Chicago.
[00:17.650 --> 00:23.550]  You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News on this fifth anniversary of the start of the Iraq War.
[00:23.790 --> 00:27.790]  From Pacifica Station, KPFK in L.A., I'm Laura Bogado.
[00:34.990 --> 00:37.790]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:37.930 --> 00:39.330]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:39.490 --> 00:41.090]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:46.450 --> 00:48.390]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:48.690 --> 00:50.910]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:51.870 --> 00:53.890]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:54.470 --> 00:56.450]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:02.470 --> 01:04.690]  I'm for the best, expect the worst.
[01:05.270 --> 01:07.210]  I hope that's understood.
[01:07.410 --> 01:08.210]  One did it, no!
[02:02.910 --> 02:04.130]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:04.270 --> 02:05.710]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:05.910 --> 02:12.330]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined this week by Redbird.
[02:12.330 --> 02:13.130]  Good evening.
[02:13.690 --> 02:14.270]  And Mike.
[02:14.490 --> 02:14.870]  Hi.
[02:15.090 --> 02:17.190]  Down in Philadelphia is Bernie S.
[02:18.850 --> 02:19.450]  Maybe not.
[02:19.450 --> 02:22.370]  I said down in Philadelphia is Bernie... No, he's got to pick up on his cues.
[02:22.990 --> 02:24.410]  Down in Philadelphia is Bernie S.
[02:28.550 --> 02:30.110]  What do you suppose went wrong this time?
[02:30.410 --> 02:31.050]  I don't know.
[02:31.470 --> 02:35.750]  He was calling me on the cell phone just minutes ago while you were talking, so...
[02:35.750 --> 02:37.970]  Do you think maybe that's something to do with him not being on the landline?
[02:38.130 --> 02:39.090]  It's entirely possible.
[02:39.090 --> 02:40.670]  We can try and re-reach him.
[02:40.670 --> 02:47.670]  Yeah, why don't you try re-reaching him while I update the folks on what's been going on in the world with all kinds of technological issues.
[02:47.830 --> 02:50.970]  Actually, you know, I wanted Bernie to talk about this, so I'm going to skip over that story.
[02:52.910 --> 02:53.250]  Gosh.
[02:54.170 --> 02:54.910]  Everybody's getting calls.
[02:55.030 --> 02:56.050]  Now, what, he's calling you now?
[02:56.130 --> 02:56.310]  Yes, he is.
[02:56.310 --> 02:57.130]  Well, he's not calling me.
[02:57.990 --> 02:59.090]  Why is he called the station?
[02:59.550 --> 03:00.130]  Is he there?
[03:00.230 --> 03:01.610]  No, how about if he doesn't call anyone?
[03:02.130 --> 03:04.310]  And then we'll call him, and it'll work out much better.
[03:10.690 --> 03:11.010]  Okay.
[03:11.690 --> 03:12.010]  Yes.
[03:12.650 --> 03:15.230]  Usual difficulties trying to get through to people.
[03:15.830 --> 03:19.730]  But once we have that settled, once we have that settled, everything will be fine.
[03:20.050 --> 03:20.370]  Guaranteed.
[03:20.450 --> 03:21.090]  It's very confusing.
[03:21.350 --> 03:21.550]  Yeah.
[03:22.010 --> 03:22.330]  Okay.
[03:22.450 --> 03:23.270]  Redbird, how about you?
[03:23.310 --> 03:23.890]  What's new with you?
[03:24.030 --> 03:24.630]  I'm pretty good.
[03:24.650 --> 03:24.950]  How are you?
[03:25.030 --> 03:25.590]  I'm fine.
[03:25.670 --> 03:25.990]  I'm fine.
[03:26.090 --> 03:28.630]  Anything fun happen in the world of technology for you this week?
[03:28.830 --> 03:29.150]  Oh.
[03:29.910 --> 03:30.130]  No?
[03:30.250 --> 03:31.770]  No, I've kind of been sheltered from that.
[03:31.870 --> 03:32.290]  Sheltered, eh?
[03:33.110 --> 03:33.430]  Okay.
[03:33.530 --> 03:33.530]  Okay.
[03:33.530 --> 03:38.950]  Well, we are going to talk about this, with or without Bernie, but basically the big wireless auction has ended.
[03:40.230 --> 03:40.810]  Is he there?
[03:40.950 --> 03:41.630]  Bernie, are you there?
[03:42.950 --> 03:44.110]  Yes, I'm here in Philadelphia.
[03:44.110 --> 03:44.630]  It's a miracle.
[03:44.670 --> 03:45.130]  What happened?
[03:45.150 --> 03:45.750]  You dropped the phone?
[03:46.350 --> 03:47.210]  Actually, it was my fault.
[03:47.290 --> 03:48.310]  Yes, I did drop the phone.
[03:48.530 --> 03:52.730]  It used to be you could drop the phone, and it wasn't a big deal, but now you drop the phone and you have to buy a new one.
[03:53.010 --> 03:55.010]  It used to be you break a toe if you drop your phone.
[03:55.130 --> 03:56.730]  Now it just breaks the phone.
[03:56.890 --> 03:59.750]  Yeah, and you could slam the receiver down if you got angry at somebody.
[03:59.830 --> 04:00.790]  I miss those days.
[04:01.110 --> 04:01.470]  Me too.
[04:01.470 --> 04:05.250]  Anyway, we were just about to talk about the big wireless auction that has ended.
[04:05.370 --> 04:05.710]  A U.S.
[04:05.830 --> 04:11.870]  government auction of wireless airwaves ended on Tuesday, raising a record $19.59 billion.
[04:12.710 --> 04:15.630]  And God knows the FCC certainly needs that money.
[04:16.150 --> 04:33.990]  Winners of the valuable spectrum were not immediately identified, but analysts view Verizon Wireless, a joint venture of Verizon Communications and Vodafone, as the most likely winner of a nationwide piece of the airwaves called the C-Block that attracted a $4.74 billion high bid.
[04:34.690 --> 04:46.770]  Now FCC Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin told reporters, this is a spectrum that's obviously very valuable and it will be critical to trying to provide additional wireless broadband services.
[04:47.210 --> 04:55.610]  Now the C-Block spectrum includes a requirement sought by internet leader Google that would make it accessible to any device or software application.
[04:56.030 --> 04:59.650]  Now the winners of the hundreds of licenses were expected to be announced within days.
[04:59.810 --> 05:07.070]  Martin said the announcement would come after the FCC's four other commissioners approved an order he said is needed to formally end the auction.
[05:07.190 --> 05:16.390]  These are 700 megahertz frequencies and they're being returned by television broadcasters as they move to digital from analog signals in early 2009.
[05:16.830 --> 05:22.410]  These signals are particularly valuable because they can go long distances and penetrate through thick walls.
[05:23.250 --> 05:25.550]  Well, is this a good thing or a bad thing, Bernie?
[05:26.510 --> 05:28.410]  Well, I just think we're all getting ripped off.
[05:28.530 --> 05:35.350]  This sounds like a great deal, but it's for consumers that this is like less tax money they're going to have to pay, but the consumers are just going to pay.
[05:35.350 --> 05:36.370]  It's a big shell game.
[05:37.410 --> 05:39.850]  These are the public airwaves.
[05:39.910 --> 05:43.210]  This is public property, this radio spectrum.
[05:43.610 --> 05:44.570]  And the U.S.
[05:44.650 --> 05:51.650]  government decided to just sell it without asking us to Verizon or Google or whomever.
[05:51.970 --> 06:00.270]  And where do you think that $5 billion that this company is paying for this spectrum, how are they going to pay for that $5,000 out of that corporation's pocket?
[06:00.470 --> 06:10.810]  They're going to turn around and charge consumers $5 billion to use the spectrum that previously belonged to the American public.
[06:11.410 --> 06:25.610]  The best analogy I can think of, it's like the Department of Interior sold Yellowstone Park or the Grand Canyon for $1 billion to some big corporation who had a business plan to charge $100 a head for people to go see it.
[06:26.150 --> 06:27.770]  It was ours to begin with.
[06:28.030 --> 06:34.810]  And now we've got to pay more through the shell game to use what was already ours to begin with.
[06:34.890 --> 06:35.470]  Don't they do that?
[06:35.550 --> 06:38.210]  Don't they charge admission to go places and look at the view?
[06:38.470 --> 06:54.490]  They may now, but if the company that manages that actually purchased the Grand Canyon or the Yellowstone Park or some other beautiful park and paid like $5 billion for it, like some company just paid for this 700 megahertz spectrum, you can bet they'd have to charge a lot more than a few dollars.
[06:54.650 --> 06:55.930]  They'd have to charge like $100 a head.
[06:56.070 --> 07:08.510]  So you can guarantee yourself that when the spectrum is now deployed by some wireless carrier for services, that those services will be rather expensive because they have to pay that $500.
[07:08.890 --> 07:11.910]  They have to get a return on their $5 billion investment.
[07:11.930 --> 07:20.070]  It's going to come out of our pockets to consumers to use spectrum that was ours to begin with if you consider this public airwave.
[07:20.210 --> 07:21.270]  So that's why I'm not happy about it.
[07:21.270 --> 07:25.350]  I'm afraid though you might have given them an idea to sell the Grand Canyon and raise some more money.
[07:25.570 --> 07:27.170]  Well, I'm sure they've already thought about it.
[07:27.270 --> 07:31.990]  It's probably on the drawing board if the current party stays in power.
[07:32.130 --> 07:32.530]  But who knows?
[07:32.610 --> 07:34.690]  They all want to sell us down the river.
[07:35.810 --> 07:36.330]  All right.
[07:36.550 --> 07:41.890]  We have a letter that actually... this is a letter not written to us, a letter written to somebody else.
[07:41.990 --> 07:45.250]  Well, I'm not... we're not reading other people's mail or anything like that.
[07:45.270 --> 07:49.830]  It's just a letter that was sent to a different place.
[07:49.990 --> 07:52.250]  It was sent to a magazine, called Radio World.
[07:52.810 --> 08:00.870]  And it comes from radio station or the station manager for a radio station known as WWVB in Fort Collins, Colorado.
[08:01.270 --> 08:02.750]  Some of you might know WWV.
[08:03.050 --> 08:03.570]  WWVB.
[08:03.730 --> 08:06.050]  Well, let's read the letter and you'll understand what it's all about.
[08:06.250 --> 08:12.510]  The National Institute of Standards and Technology, known as NIST, is considering the establishment of a U.S.
[08:12.650 --> 08:20.550]  East Coast low-frequency radio station broadcasting NIST time in binary code format to complement the present NIST
[08:32.910 --> 08:44.390]  The proposed new East Coast broadcast will operate within the same time code format as the present WWVB signal, but at a different carrier frequency, potentially at 40 kilohertz.
[08:44.390 --> 08:55.210]  In 1999, the power of the WWVB broadcast out of Fort Collins, Colorado, was increased from 13 kilowatts to 50 kilowatts and has since been increased to 70 kilowatts.
[08:55.370 --> 09:01.170]  Even at this power level, there are locations on the East Coast that have difficulty in consistently receiving the time code.
[09:01.290 --> 09:08.950]  It's been suggested that an East Coast broadcast would make the time code easier to receive and increase the sales of radio-controlled clocks.
[09:08.950 --> 09:16.810]  It also would provide new opportunities for the development of radio-controlled timing devices and appliances and other consumer products.
[09:16.970 --> 09:23.750]  If such a new station would be valuable to you or your company or your friends or relatives, let us know how it would help.
[09:23.750 --> 09:47.250]  The comments can be sent to John Lowe, L-O-W-E, N-I-S-T, 325 Broadway, Boulder, Colorado, 80305, or by email, L-O-W-E at boulder, B-O-U-L-D-E-R, dot N-I-S-T dot gov. Now, maybe Redbird or Bernie, you could explain just what WWV and WWVB is all about to start with.
[09:47.950 --> 09:48.550]  I'm sorry.
[09:49.050 --> 09:50.130]  You got my pot down again.
[09:50.130 --> 09:59.590]  Well, the most common use for WWVB and any other radio timecode broadcasts are for clocks.
[09:59.750 --> 10:01.390]  Actually, I think we have one on the wall right here.
[10:03.030 --> 10:04.750]  Redbird, don't you have one on your wrist?
[10:04.790 --> 10:06.930]  I have one on my wrist as well, and I believe you do too.
[10:07.210 --> 10:07.990]  As do I.
[10:08.090 --> 10:11.050]  We're both wearing WWVB radio receivers on our wrist.
[10:11.070 --> 10:11.150]  Oh, God.
[10:11.510 --> 10:13.350]  I really didn't know this when I brought this up.
[10:13.450 --> 10:14.450]  You guys are wired.
[10:15.350 --> 10:20.130]  All right, so tell the folks who have no idea what we're talking about, what is this WWVB that's wired into your system?
[10:20.230 --> 10:28.490]  So this is an extremely low-frequency timecode broadcast, and they can go down that low in frequency because the amount of data that has to be sent isn't really all that much.
[10:28.890 --> 10:31.470]  But I believe the current one is 60 kilohertz.
[10:31.610 --> 10:32.630]  Bernie, correct me if I'm wrong.
[10:32.950 --> 10:34.470]  I believe it is 60 kilohertz, right?
[10:34.630 --> 10:36.450]  I believe I said it was 60 kilohertz, too.
[10:36.510 --> 10:38.190]  But there's others around the world.
[10:38.370 --> 10:39.390]  There's like one in Japan.
[10:39.550 --> 10:44.470]  There's one in Western Europe that are operated by those countries' respective standards organizations.
[10:44.470 --> 10:47.470]  NIST stands for National Institute of Standards and Technology.
[10:47.730 --> 10:49.570]  It used to be called the National Bureau of Standards.
[10:49.830 --> 11:02.790]  But it's the government organization that keeps the holy grail of all measurement units in like a big safe, like the holy kilogram and the holy pound and the holy gallon and the quart.
[11:03.010 --> 11:05.110]  Mike, you have a dubious expression on your face.
[11:05.310 --> 11:10.430]  Well, the notion that any sort of non-metric units could be holy is a bit foreign.
[11:10.430 --> 11:20.710]  But it's interesting that in areas requiring particularly precise time, the WWV signal is actually not sufficient because it takes so long.
[11:20.750 --> 11:30.710]  And so it sort of varies the propagation time from Boulder to other parts of the country that you really need to use GPS or something more accurate depending on what you're doing.
[11:31.250 --> 11:37.850]  But the problem is that GPS signals can't penetrate metal rooftops very well.
[11:37.850 --> 11:44.050]  I mean, you can have a WWVB clock or watch or some other device that decodes the time.
[11:44.170 --> 11:48.030]  You can have it in a building, and surprisingly well, these signals penetrate.
[11:48.130 --> 11:54.750]  These low-frequency signals, like 60 kilohertz, penetrates through buildings surprisingly well.
[11:54.750 --> 11:58.590]  Whereas a GPS receiver, which we are great, that is a better way to get time signals.
[11:59.830 --> 12:04.250]  The receiver would be more expensive, and it had to have a clear shot of the sky to get it.
[12:04.250 --> 12:16.630]  So there's a downside with each of these technologies, and I think it's a good use of tax dollars, though, to have these sort of time synchronization broadcasts for the public to use.
[12:16.650 --> 12:17.350]  I think it's a good thing.
[12:17.570 --> 12:20.710]  I can vouch for the fact that it's very difficult to receive in my area.
[12:21.010 --> 12:25.150]  I usually don't have much luck, whereas Bernie down in Philadelphia is able to receive it all the time.
[12:25.150 --> 12:27.630]  So you would support the addition of a radio station broadcast?
[12:27.630 --> 12:27.730]  Absolutely.
[12:27.910 --> 12:29.810]  I don't see why anybody wouldn't support it.
[12:29.930 --> 12:31.770]  I don't know how it would disadvantage anybody.
[12:31.770 --> 12:35.110]  Well, it would probably cost money that we could be used to kill innocent people overseas.
[12:35.290 --> 12:35.810]  You know, good point.
[12:36.450 --> 12:41.710]  But now, WWVB is the binary that kind of goes to your watches.
[12:41.710 --> 12:43.270]  Is that different from WWV?
[12:43.510 --> 12:49.970]  There are other broadcasts that occur on the shortwave bands, and I believe they're at, I think, 5 megahertz, 10 megahertz, 15 megahertz.
[12:50.130 --> 12:51.030]  Does it go up to 20?
[12:51.150 --> 12:51.870]  I think it might go up to 20.
[12:51.870 --> 12:52.550]  It used to.
[12:52.630 --> 12:55.430]  It might still go 5, 10, 15, or 20 megahertz.
[12:55.610 --> 13:09.790]  If you have a shortwave receiver, just tune into one of those frequencies, and you'll hear what sounds like a ticking clock, which is synchronized against a, I think it's a cesium-based, cesium decay, like atomic decay clock, also in Fort Collins, Colorado,
[13:10.530 --> 13:13.350]  that is accurate to about one second per million years.
[13:13.690 --> 13:16.950]  If that's not accurate enough for you, then too bad.
[13:17.270 --> 13:23.470]  But I think both WWV and WWVB are both linked to the same clock in Fort Collins, Colorado.
[13:23.470 --> 13:25.690]  There's one in Hawaii called WWVH.
[13:25.850 --> 13:26.210]  Oh, really?
[13:26.470 --> 13:31.090]  And you can sometimes hear that in the background when you're listening to WWVB on a shortwave broadcast.
[13:31.430 --> 13:32.950]  Sometimes in the background you can hear the...
[13:32.950 --> 13:38.510]  The one in Hawaii has a woman's voice, and the one in Colorado has a male voice.
[13:38.630 --> 13:40.690]  And there's also a Canadian version of this, too, isn't there?
[13:41.390 --> 13:42.290]  CHU in Canada.
[13:42.510 --> 13:42.710]  Mm-hmm.
[13:43.050 --> 13:44.470]  I guess every country must...
[13:44.470 --> 13:46.990]  I mean, who's to say the United States is in charge of time?
[13:46.990 --> 13:48.390]  I guess probably we are, but...
[13:48.390 --> 13:59.690]  Well, no, there's actually an international consortium of the laboratory in Colorado, and the other national laboratories that all get together to meet, to have a common consensus on what time it is.
[13:59.830 --> 14:00.730]  Yeah, but what if...
[14:00.730 --> 14:01.350]  It's very advanced.
[14:01.390 --> 14:04.810]  What if Bangladesh disagrees with that, and they want to start their own time, you know?
[14:05.010 --> 14:07.650]  They could, but they'd be in disagreement with everyone else.
[14:07.650 --> 14:09.410]  It would be not to their advantage.
[14:09.970 --> 14:12.750]  They send these really funny bulletins to service that...
[14:12.750 --> 14:19.570]  I don't know if people know about leap seconds, but every six months I get an email telling me whether or not there'll be a leap second.
[14:19.570 --> 14:23.770]  We had a leap year this year, but leap seconds happen at the end of the year?
[14:23.910 --> 14:31.650]  Well, there's an opportunity at the end of June and at the end of December for there to be a leap second or for there to not be a leap second.
[14:32.150 --> 14:33.610]  And I forget exactly.
[14:33.730 --> 14:39.930]  It's some bureau in Paris which is in charge of disseminating the decision about whether or not to have a leap second.
[14:40.350 --> 14:41.130]  And I don't know.
[14:41.230 --> 14:41.950]  I subscribe.
[14:42.190 --> 14:42.970]  I think they're kind of fun.
[14:43.110 --> 14:44.050]  Well, it's always...
[14:44.050 --> 14:44.970]  You can actually hear it.
[14:44.970 --> 14:56.030]  If you go to WWV's website, just Google WWV, you can find their website, they will announce whether they're going to have a leap second or not, and they'll say what second, like the time it's going to be exactly.
[14:56.350 --> 15:02.170]  And if you listen on your shortwave radio, you can actually hear them announce there's going to be a leap second, and there's an extra tick.
[15:02.350 --> 15:03.550]  There's an extra one second tick.
[15:03.650 --> 15:03.930]  Do you hear something?
[15:03.930 --> 15:05.150]  And then you've heard the leap second.
[15:05.310 --> 15:05.990]  I've seen...
[15:05.990 --> 15:06.710]  Oh, no.
[15:07.530 --> 15:08.630]  I'm sorry, Barney.
[15:09.430 --> 15:10.910]  I don't mean to interrupt, but...
[15:12.030 --> 15:13.090]  You know what this must be?
[15:13.090 --> 15:16.810]  This must be the required tribute to Arthur C.
[15:16.930 --> 15:19.030]  Clarke, who passed away yesterday.
[16:16.660 --> 16:18.700]  And again, I'm sorry, Barney, for interrupting.
[16:18.900 --> 16:21.680]  We had it programmed to come on at exactly a quarter past.
[16:23.160 --> 16:25.420]  It's a mandatory tribute to Arthur C.
[16:25.540 --> 16:28.240]  Clarke, who, as I mentioned, passed away yesterday.
[16:28.340 --> 16:30.240]  And I know we've talked about this.
[16:31.140 --> 16:34.560]  This is a guy who certainly has been an inspiration to so many people.
[16:34.560 --> 16:39.500]  I mean, he actually conceptualized the idea of geostationary, geosynchronous satellites.
[16:40.260 --> 16:40.900]  Yes.
[16:41.020 --> 16:45.920]  And that particular part of the orbit around Earth at 22,000...
[16:45.920 --> 16:52.200]  about 22,300 miles from the Earth, at which point the satellite doesn't have to...
[16:52.200 --> 16:58.740]  it will always stay in one point over the Earth instead of, like, passing overhead.
[16:58.740 --> 17:05.820]  That is named by most organizations that deal with satellites as the Clarke Belt, in honor of Arthur C.
[17:05.880 --> 17:06.180]  Clarke.
[17:06.260 --> 17:08.860]  When he was a kid back in the...
[17:08.860 --> 17:11.960]  he was at the Royal Air Force, he...
[17:11.960 --> 17:13.340]  it was the early days of television.
[17:13.740 --> 17:20.420]  And he thought it was interesting that the TV signals didn't go more than a few tens of kilometers because of the curvature of the Earth.
[17:20.640 --> 17:21.660]  The signal would get blocked.
[17:21.660 --> 17:23.500]  And he thought, well, gee, you could put a...
[17:23.500 --> 17:32.780]  you could put a repeater station for television up in the sky at a point in orbit where it would not have to pass overhead, where it would just stay in one spot all the time.
[17:33.200 --> 17:38.620]  And so he wrote this up for, I think, Wireless World magazine back in the...
[17:38.620 --> 17:41.820]  I think it was back in the 30s or 40s.
[17:41.820 --> 17:48.260]  And he was paid five pounds, Sterling, for the article.
[17:48.720 --> 17:51.140]  And then it was about, what, how many...
[17:51.140 --> 18:02.720]  1956, I guess, or 57, the Soviets launched Sputnik, which wasn't the first-year stationary satellite, but it was the first satellite to orbit the Earth that sent a signal, artificial satellite.
[18:03.100 --> 18:06.540]  And the industry just caught on to this idea that he invented.
[18:06.760 --> 18:08.400]  He was really a brilliant scientist.
[18:08.400 --> 18:14.640]  And one of the things I liked about all his work, all his novels, is that they were all based in science.
[18:14.960 --> 18:15.320]  Yes.
[18:15.320 --> 18:16.520]  They were all plausible.
[18:16.800 --> 18:17.020]  Right.
[18:17.040 --> 18:22.740]  Not like today's sci-fi, which is all just explosions and craziness, but this was actually rooted in, as you say, reality.
[18:23.460 --> 18:23.580]  Yep.
[18:23.680 --> 18:24.700]  And it was hopeful.
[18:24.780 --> 18:25.700]  A lot of his stuff was hopeful.
[18:25.880 --> 18:37.640]  I was inspired by some of his works as a teenager to just think about technology and think what's possible with technology in society.
[18:37.640 --> 18:40.400]  And he was a real visionary.
[18:40.480 --> 18:47.500]  And we're going to miss him, but he contributed so much, not just this concept of geostationary satellites, but a lot of other things.
[18:47.580 --> 18:49.120]  He was just a brilliant man.
[18:49.260 --> 18:58.960]  Well, of course, to me, the major thing was his contribution in the making of the movie 2001, A Space Odyssey, which was derived from his story, The Sentinel.
[19:00.140 --> 19:03.420]  And I think that was probably one of the first movies I remember seeing as a kid.
[19:03.440 --> 19:05.220]  I actually was around when it came out.
[19:05.220 --> 19:06.700]  I remember being taken to it.
[19:06.740 --> 19:09.600]  I might have actually seen the extended version.
[19:09.840 --> 19:12.960]  There's a 160-minute version that Stanley Kubrick released.
[19:13.080 --> 19:17.620]  And then after it premiered in New York, he cut it down a little bit, kind of similar to Freedom Downtown.
[19:17.760 --> 19:18.560]  We showed that in New York City.
[19:18.620 --> 19:19.260]  It was extra long.
[19:19.640 --> 19:20.880]  Never showed it again that long.
[19:21.280 --> 19:24.300]  And I don't think you can find that version of 2001 anywhere.
[19:25.600 --> 19:36.300]  And I just remember that sort of planted in me my interest in outer space and just exploration and learning about weird and different things.
[19:36.700 --> 19:39.680]  And it also got me to read his books, read his stories.
[19:39.940 --> 19:43.680]  And it was just a very interesting and fascinating period.
[19:44.100 --> 19:47.040]  We also have a bunch of his quotes.
[19:47.060 --> 19:48.700]  He had some really amazing quotes.
[19:48.860 --> 19:51.920]  He talked a lot about going to the moon.
[19:51.920 --> 19:53.920]  This is something that bothers me as well.
[19:54.060 --> 19:58.300]  And what's most amazing to me, he said, was that we could go there and not go back.
[19:58.820 --> 20:08.120]  And that is certainly incredible that, yeah, we went there in 1969, 68, and we haven't gone back since the early 70s.
[20:08.220 --> 20:19.600]  And you'd think with the computing power that we had back then and mission control that we could probably send the rocket to Mars or to the moon with a regular PC these days because it probably has about the same computing power.
[20:19.780 --> 20:21.400]  Well, it takes more than computing power.
[20:21.400 --> 20:22.180]  You need the map.
[20:22.180 --> 20:24.620]  You need the roadmap or whatever it is that else you need.
[20:25.100 --> 20:26.100]  Like a rocket.
[20:26.300 --> 20:27.220]  A rocket, too.
[20:27.340 --> 20:29.040]  I'm sure we have a lot of rockets lying around.
[20:29.600 --> 20:31.100]  But here are some other quotes from Arthur C.
[20:31.180 --> 20:31.520]  Clarke.
[20:32.140 --> 20:35.840]  It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
[20:36.420 --> 20:41.280]  Or how about politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories.
[20:42.120 --> 20:42.420]  Hear, hear.
[20:42.700 --> 20:42.920]  Yeah.
[20:43.020 --> 20:47.680]  The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.
[20:48.440 --> 20:49.660]  And here's one of my favorites.
[20:49.660 --> 20:54.220]  It's, there is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum.
[20:55.020 --> 20:55.400]  Huh?
[20:55.660 --> 20:56.800]  And of course, the classic.
[20:56.980 --> 20:57.400]  The classic.
[20:57.620 --> 21:01.640]  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
[21:03.380 --> 21:04.480]  And one more.
[21:04.640 --> 21:05.420]  One more Arthur C.
[21:05.500 --> 21:05.960]  Clarke quote.
[21:06.480 --> 21:11.660]  When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right.
[21:11.860 --> 21:15.160]  When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
[21:15.760 --> 21:16.440]  And yeah.
[21:16.740 --> 21:20.120]  You know, how often do we battle the people who tell us things are impossible?
[21:20.200 --> 21:21.220]  You can't do that.
[21:21.220 --> 21:23.600]  It's just not, it's not likely.
[21:23.800 --> 21:26.120]  It defies the laws of various things.
[21:26.720 --> 21:27.840]  And we do it anyway.
[21:28.780 --> 21:29.000]  I don't know.
[21:29.000 --> 21:32.340]  It's that kind of attitude that I think has always been inspirational.
[21:32.760 --> 21:33.080]  So yes.
[21:33.220 --> 21:33.640]  Arthur C.
[21:33.720 --> 21:34.040]  Clarke.
[21:34.640 --> 21:35.760]  We'll certainly miss him.
[21:36.120 --> 21:40.820]  And for those of you who have never seen 2001 A Space Odyssey, and I imagine we've all seen it, right?
[21:41.580 --> 21:42.060]  You know, okay.
[21:42.780 --> 21:44.640]  But I imagine there are listeners who have never seen it.
[21:45.040 --> 21:46.120]  Do yourself a favor.
[21:46.240 --> 21:48.180]  Go out and get this movie somehow.
[21:48.280 --> 21:51.680]  Even if you don't have a big HDTV screen or whatever, see it on your regular set.
[21:51.940 --> 21:53.280]  But just pay attention to it.
[21:53.340 --> 21:57.080]  Don't let all kinds of distractions distract you.
[21:57.440 --> 22:00.020]  Don't have a bunch of people talking while the thing is on.
[22:00.080 --> 22:04.620]  Just pay attention to this because it's one of the most amazing films, I think, that have ever been made.
[22:04.860 --> 22:06.500]  Not a whole lot in the way of acting.
[22:07.200 --> 22:08.420]  It's almost like a documentary.
[22:08.760 --> 22:10.220]  You see basically the dawn of man.
[22:10.220 --> 22:11.280]  You see the future of man.
[22:11.280 --> 22:14.180]  And the first 26 minutes of the film, no dialogue.
[22:14.400 --> 22:17.400]  The last 24 minutes, I believe, no dialogue.
[22:17.780 --> 22:23.560]  I think there's something like 88 minutes of no dialogue in the movie entirely, which is incredible.
[22:23.800 --> 22:24.980]  You couldn't do that today.
[22:25.280 --> 22:29.140]  And just the little things, like explosions in space having no noise.
[22:29.680 --> 22:31.100]  You know, there is no noise in the vacuum.
[22:32.920 --> 22:34.040]  It's an incredible movie.
[22:34.180 --> 22:35.640]  Not like anything that's made these days.
[22:35.840 --> 22:37.180]  So by all means, go out and get it.
[22:37.240 --> 22:37.860]  Maybe someday.
[22:38.060 --> 22:39.800]  Maybe now that it's...
[22:40.240 --> 22:43.320]  It's what, the 40th anniversary of its release?
[22:43.440 --> 22:44.360]  And of course, Arthur C.
[22:44.440 --> 22:45.400]  Clarke has just passed away.
[22:45.820 --> 22:48.000]  Maybe they will actually play it on the big screen in New York City.
[22:48.060 --> 22:48.600]  That would be nice.
[22:48.960 --> 22:51.360]  If anyone out there has that kind of power, I'd sure like to hear from them.
[22:52.640 --> 22:52.920]  Okay.
[22:52.920 --> 22:53.860]  Any final words on Arthur C.
[22:53.920 --> 22:54.640]  Clarke before we move on?
[22:56.200 --> 22:56.480]  None?
[22:56.620 --> 22:56.780]  Okay.
[22:57.500 --> 23:02.000]  Then we have a section here, which I'd like to initiate.
[23:02.260 --> 23:03.200]  I'd like to call...
[23:03.200 --> 23:05.120]  Well, we have one of possible...
[23:05.440 --> 23:08.520]  Two possible names for this next section here.
[23:09.080 --> 23:10.080]  And maybe you guys can help me.
[23:10.080 --> 23:10.720]  A section of the show?
[23:10.860 --> 23:11.580]  Yeah, a section of the show.
[23:11.580 --> 23:12.060]  Have we ever had that before?
[23:12.080 --> 23:12.900]  No, we've never had it before.
[23:12.960 --> 23:14.140]  And I think it's high time we start.
[23:15.140 --> 23:17.500]  We haven't done so well with the whole regular section thing.
[23:17.500 --> 23:18.200]  Yeah, well, okay.
[23:18.260 --> 23:24.320]  The thing is, while the army sleeps, didn't take off because, well, apparently Red Hack is sleeping over there in the army in Finland.
[23:24.320 --> 23:25.340]  So we can't reach him.
[23:26.100 --> 23:27.060]  I'm sorry about that.
[23:27.600 --> 23:32.600]  But no, this is a new feature that I think we should label either Jesus H.
[23:32.880 --> 23:35.200]  Christ and have to say it in that kind of a tone.
[23:35.460 --> 23:36.880]  What does that tone say to you?
[23:38.300 --> 23:39.360]  Like, doesn't say anything?
[23:39.600 --> 23:39.740]  Shock.
[23:39.840 --> 23:40.520]  Shock, shock.
[23:40.760 --> 23:42.080]  And just kind of impatience.
[23:42.180 --> 23:43.700]  Like, how could you be so stupid?
[23:43.920 --> 23:44.780]  You know, that kind of a thing.
[23:45.000 --> 23:46.220]  Or, how about this?
[23:46.220 --> 23:47.740]  Oh, my God.
[23:47.880 --> 23:48.760]  How about that as a section?
[23:49.080 --> 23:49.480]  Either one.
[23:49.640 --> 23:50.240]  Either one works.
[23:50.840 --> 23:52.580]  Do we have to name it after a deity?
[23:52.620 --> 23:52.840]  We don't have to name it now.
[23:52.900 --> 23:54.260]  Maybe the listeners can help us with this.
[23:54.340 --> 23:56.080]  But what we're going to do is plunge into our first story.
[23:56.140 --> 23:57.400]  We also don't have the theme music set up.
[23:57.460 --> 23:58.520]  This is all still in development.
[23:58.720 --> 24:02.140]  But I think we have enough material where we can make this a regular feature of the show.
[24:03.000 --> 24:04.460]  I kind of like, Oh, my God.
[24:04.540 --> 24:05.260]  I kind of like that.
[24:05.580 --> 24:10.560]  I solicit from our listeners suggestions for a name without a deity in it.
[24:10.620 --> 24:12.360]  Okay, well, we have to thank for this.
[24:12.660 --> 24:13.600]  We have to thank for...
[24:13.600 --> 24:14.880]  Well, okay, deity in your mind.
[24:14.880 --> 24:20.040]  But Stephen Shoesmith sent us this particular bit of information.
[24:20.280 --> 24:22.560]  And I want to thank you very much for writing to us.
[24:23.340 --> 24:26.820]  I'm not sure if anyone on the 2600 staff or the Off the Hook crew has seen this.
[24:26.940 --> 24:29.400]  I haven't heard anything mentioned on Off the Hook about it.
[24:29.740 --> 24:32.420]  Recently, a co-worker and I were talking about his upcoming vacation.
[24:32.560 --> 24:34.500]  He mentioned that the U.S.
[24:34.600 --> 24:43.040]  Postal Service has made it easy for busy people to put a hold on their USPS mail delivery for up to a month at a time without having to go to their local post office.
[24:43.620 --> 24:44.480]  Gee whiz, sounds great.
[24:44.880 --> 24:46.380]  I asked how he was able to do this.
[24:46.540 --> 24:50.400]  He stated that he simply went to HTTPS...
[24:51.300 --> 24:52.280]  Oh, it's a cure.
[24:52.500 --> 24:52.640]  Yeah.
[24:52.920 --> 25:11.100]  Colon slash slash holdmail holdmail.usps.com Once again, HTTPS colon slash slash holdmail.usps.com He input his name and address and phone number and then specified what date he would like to have his mail delivery resume up to 30 days in the future.
[25:11.100 --> 25:15.080]  I asked him what verification was asked for to perform this.
[25:15.300 --> 25:18.680]  He looked at me with a dumb expression and said, verification?
[25:19.520 --> 25:23.020]  He stated that no verification was required.
[25:23.340 --> 25:25.080]  I found this entirely hard to believe.
[25:25.120 --> 25:28.600]  So I went to the site and input the location of the company I work at.
[25:28.940 --> 25:38.040]  And when it asked for a name, I put in blah, blah, literally and put in a random phone number with a different area code from the one that my company is located in.
[25:38.040 --> 25:39.560]  It had no problem accepting this.
[25:39.680 --> 25:47.820]  It gave me a confirmation number stating, please print or write down this confirmation number as it will be required should you wish to cancel this hold.
[25:48.220 --> 25:53.040]  If you lose this number, you will be required to visit your local post office to cancel this hold.
[25:53.840 --> 25:55.140]  Still not believing this.
[25:55.220 --> 25:58.740]  I sent a snail mail letter to myself at the company I work at.
[25:58.940 --> 26:02.080]  It has been two weeks now since I have mailed the letter and it has not arrived.
[26:02.580 --> 26:03.720]  This is quite outrageous.
[26:03.720 --> 26:11.740]  In the past, to put a hold on your mail, you were required to go to your local post office, sign a form, and show a valid picture ID with the address you're requesting a hold on.
[26:11.980 --> 26:18.560]  With this site, you can now put a hold on anyone's mail that you want and you don't even have to know their name or phone number.
[26:18.700 --> 26:19.600]  Just an address.
[26:19.920 --> 26:23.920]  How the postal service can allow something like this to happen is quite mind-boggling.
[26:24.040 --> 26:28.100]  And Stephen, I have to agree with you and hence my expression, oh my God, or Jesus H.
[26:28.180 --> 26:29.840]  Christ, how is such a thing possible?
[26:30.020 --> 26:31.320]  I went through...
[26:31.320 --> 26:32.420]  See, there's a mistake.
[26:32.920 --> 26:37.420]  Because you never had to prove you were who you said you were to hold your mail, only to pick up your mail.
[26:37.760 --> 26:42.800]  Well, I would imagine if you went down there in person, at least the conception is there that you better not be lying.
[26:42.880 --> 26:51.840]  But when I've had my mail held, I've gone there in person, and what they do is they give me a yellow piece of paper, which I'm supposed to fill out and then stick in the mail.
[26:52.080 --> 26:53.300]  Okay, but then that's handwriting.
[26:53.660 --> 26:55.020]  You have to go to the...
[26:55.020 --> 26:56.300]  Yeah, but they don't verify my handwriting.
[26:56.540 --> 26:57.040]  I guess.
[26:57.040 --> 26:59.140]  Yes, but there's something inherently different...
[26:59.140 --> 27:02.480]  And if I knew anyone who had a typewriter, I could use that instead.
[27:02.840 --> 27:08.280]  Can you take all these forms and simply fill them out and send them in the mail for all different addresses?
[27:08.820 --> 27:08.940]  Sure.
[27:09.020 --> 27:10.800]  You don't have to go down to the post office to get them each time.
[27:11.380 --> 27:12.800]  Oh, then that's a problem too.
[27:12.860 --> 27:14.780]  But this is something that you could do en masse.
[27:14.920 --> 27:24.520]  You can just keep going and, I mean, I could get on right now, type in the address for the White House, all right, and get the zip code right this time and stop their mail, theoretically.
[27:24.760 --> 27:25.740]  It might not work because...
[27:25.740 --> 27:26.540]  Why wouldn't that work?
[27:27.520 --> 27:31.180]  Because there's still a lot of human intervention in the whole mail process.
[27:31.180 --> 27:36.420]  When I've had my mail held, usually about one day a week while I'm away, they deliver my mail anyway.
[27:36.640 --> 27:44.160]  So I think there's some human that's not holding the mail and I think that human could not hold the mail for the post office.
[27:44.360 --> 27:47.440]  So you're saying that even though they saw blah, blah as the name?
[27:47.780 --> 27:50.840]  I mean, I tested this already on an address that I'm checking.
[27:51.500 --> 27:51.940]  And...
[27:51.940 --> 27:52.660]  Hang on.
[27:54.340 --> 27:57.380]  And basically, I'm going to test it over the next week.
[27:57.520 --> 28:04.220]  But from what I was able to see, I looked at the site and they make it seem so nice and simple.
[28:04.340 --> 28:11.000]  Whether you're on vacation or an unexpected business trip, you can rest easy knowing your mail is safely held for you at your local post office.
[28:11.120 --> 28:12.140]  I'm not resting easy anymore.
[28:12.560 --> 28:16.980]  This online service will electronically notify your local post office to hold your mail.
[28:17.720 --> 28:20.000]  Mail can be held from three to 30 days.
[28:20.440 --> 28:25.600]  And basically, what you do is you put in your first name, last name, address, and phone number.
[28:25.760 --> 28:28.460]  And like the listener said, none of this is verified.
[28:28.600 --> 28:29.620]  None of this has to be verified.
[28:29.900 --> 28:35.340]  And in fact, if you list a name at an address, all mail to that address will not be delivered.
[28:35.400 --> 28:36.740]  Not just mail to that name.
[28:36.980 --> 28:37.700]  Well, it depends.
[28:38.100 --> 28:38.540]  That's what they say.
[28:38.540 --> 28:39.440]  It's an option, I think.
[28:39.500 --> 28:44.720]  No, they say that because one of the questions is what happens if one person does this?
[28:44.720 --> 28:45.980]  With mail forwarding, it's an option.
[28:46.060 --> 28:47.380]  I don't know if it's an option withholding.
[28:47.380 --> 28:47.620]  Yeah.
[28:47.900 --> 28:52.900]  So I input a fake name at a real address and it basically says the address has been standardized.
[28:52.900 --> 29:02.280]  It gives you, you know, makes it so that the, it conforms, they abbreviate street, they abbreviate apartment numbers, things like that.
[29:02.440 --> 29:05.080]  And then they ask you to verify that standardized address.
[29:05.800 --> 29:16.620]  And then, then any additional instructions to enter, which I imagine somebody looks at, the begin date, the resume date, and then one more page to verify.
[29:16.620 --> 29:18.180]  They ask if this is all correct.
[29:18.380 --> 29:21.500]  Then when you say yes, well, your confirmation number is this.
[29:21.500 --> 29:25.540]  It begins with W-E-H and has eight numbers after that.
[29:25.700 --> 29:29.100]  You will need this confirmation number to modify this holdmail in the future.
[29:29.160 --> 29:33.600]  In the event you do not have the confirmation number, you'll need to go to your local post office to modify it.
[29:34.660 --> 29:38.660]  I mean, I'm blown away that something like this is so incredibly simple to do.
[29:39.800 --> 29:42.120]  There's a worse danger I see in this.
[29:42.180 --> 29:42.800]  What's that, Bernie?
[29:43.000 --> 30:11.300]  I mean, some unscrupulous individual or skull of the earth could write a piece of malware, malicious software, and distribute it through one of these spambot networks that would log on to this website and enter addresses that it harvests from, like, Anyhoo or one of the other free databases of people's mailing phone numbers and snail mail addresses.
[30:12.280 --> 30:12.980]  Someone could write...
[30:12.980 --> 30:15.660]  Basically, somebody could write a worm or virus that would...
[30:15.660 --> 30:20.540]  an application that would start blocking millions of people's mail from being sent to them.
[30:20.740 --> 30:20.980]  Absolutely.
[30:21.300 --> 30:22.220]  Totally get out of hand.
[30:22.400 --> 30:23.080]  And the U.S.
[30:23.140 --> 30:27.400]  Postal Service apparently is completely ignorant of that possibility.
[30:27.900 --> 30:29.080]  How do you spell Langley?
[30:29.800 --> 30:31.260]  Is it with an E or without an E?
[30:31.420 --> 30:31.620]  I'm sorry.
[30:31.620 --> 30:32.220]  C-I-A.
[30:32.420 --> 30:33.440]  L-A-N-G-L-E-Y.
[30:33.760 --> 30:34.880]  What are you, reading my mind?
[30:34.960 --> 30:35.620]  No, get out of there.
[30:36.340 --> 30:37.100]  Okay, hang on.
[30:37.720 --> 30:38.600]  All right, back to the show.
[30:39.000 --> 30:43.680]  Yeah, so, I mean, you can do all sorts of mischief and mayhem very easily.
[30:43.960 --> 30:47.760]  And, you know, Mike, if it's that easy to do it by hand, then it's also a problem.
[30:47.780 --> 30:48.840]  I can't imagine...
[30:49.260 --> 31:00.420]  Sometimes, just by having to put your fingers on things and fill things out in person or write down on a piece of paper, I know it shouldn't be, but it does prevent a lot of people from doing things.
[31:00.460 --> 31:02.580]  But this just makes it seem like it can be automated.
[31:02.580 --> 31:05.540]  It can just be anonymized so easily.
[31:07.260 --> 31:08.480]  So, let's see where this goes.
[31:08.600 --> 31:10.120]  Again, the email...
[31:10.120 --> 31:17.920]  the URL for this, HTTPS, colon, slash, slash, holdmail...
[31:19.060 --> 31:19.920]  Actually, I lost it.
[31:20.120 --> 31:20.700]  Was that what it was?
[31:20.820 --> 31:23.160]  Yes, holdmail.usps.com.
[31:24.880 --> 31:27.740]  The HTTPS indicates that it's secure.
[31:27.900 --> 31:28.960]  Now, why would it have to be secure?
[31:29.040 --> 31:32.520]  Why would this have to be secure so somebody doesn't eavesdrop and see what you're doing?
[31:33.340 --> 31:36.340]  Well, that's the idea, but obviously, in this case, it doesn't matter anyway.
[31:37.260 --> 31:50.240]  They've at least gone to that much trouble to make it so people can't watch you hold somebody else's mail, but apparently, not enough care has been taken to ensure that it not be allowed to be done in the first place by anybody in the world.
[31:50.460 --> 31:52.120]  And it can be done by anybody in the world.
[31:52.140 --> 31:53.540]  You don't have to be in the United States to do this.
[31:53.660 --> 31:54.860]  That's the incredible thing.
[31:54.860 --> 32:02.140]  So, yeah, okay, that's, I think, an appropriate beginning to our first section of shocking, stupid policies.
[32:02.740 --> 32:04.980]  And thanks for sending it in to us, Stephen.
[32:05.240 --> 32:07.440]  Our address, OTH at 2600.com.
[32:07.460 --> 32:13.120]  We'd love to hear from people with all sorts of crazy security things and stuff like that.
[32:13.220 --> 32:14.400]  Okay, we have a special guest with us.
[32:14.540 --> 32:17.700]  Joining us from Ohio is Froggy.
[32:17.820 --> 32:18.480]  Froggy, are you there?
[32:18.700 --> 32:19.440]  Yes, I'm here.
[32:19.660 --> 32:20.560]  Welcome to the show.
[32:20.720 --> 32:21.380]  It's good to be here.
[32:21.380 --> 32:26.540]  You are the organizer of a conference called Not-A-Con.
[32:26.660 --> 32:28.020]  I don't mean to sound so accusatory in that.
[32:28.060 --> 32:28.440]  No, no.
[32:28.560 --> 32:29.400]  It is the truth.
[32:29.400 --> 32:30.740]  You are an organizer of this.
[32:30.860 --> 32:36.900]  And you're here tonight to answer some questions about this particular conference, which has been taking place since what year?
[32:37.320 --> 32:41.740]  Well, we actually had our first Not-A-Con in 2004, so this is going to be year five for us.
[32:41.940 --> 32:42.180]  Wow.
[32:42.280 --> 32:43.140]  Great name, by the way.
[32:43.280 --> 32:43.840]  Thank you very much.
[32:43.900 --> 32:44.360]  Not-A-Con.
[32:44.460 --> 32:46.080]  Does it mean it's not a conference?
[32:46.080 --> 32:47.200]  It's not a con job?
[32:47.220 --> 32:48.800]  How did it come about?
[32:48.960 --> 33:03.840]  Well, actually, it came about because my wife and I and I, Tiger, we attend a lot of hacker conferences, including Hope and DefCon and all that other kind of thing, and we realized that the reason we kind of went to those events was mostly to talk to people and to make social networks.
[33:04.420 --> 33:21.200]  So we decided that we would create a different kind of conference that would focus more on the community aspects and a lot of the creativity aspects of the hacking community and throw in a little bit of technology, and so we thought Not-A-Con was a good way to kind of distance ourselves a little bit from the hacker-con stereotype,
[33:21.340 --> 33:22.680]  but still borrowing a lot from it.
[33:23.020 --> 33:24.800]  It takes place in what city?
[33:24.980 --> 33:25.820]  It's in Cleveland, Ohio.
[33:26.040 --> 33:27.740]  Cleveland, Ohio, and what are the dates?
[33:28.240 --> 33:31.140]  This year we're going to be running from April 4th through April 6th.
[33:31.640 --> 33:31.880]  Okay.
[33:32.140 --> 33:41.460]  Now, I know that a bunch of people organizing the Last Hope Conference this July in New York have taken it upon themselves to visit Cleveland this year and check out the conference.
[33:41.520 --> 33:46.360]  I know a lot of us already go, but I think just about everybody from off the hook is going to be there this year.
[33:46.520 --> 33:47.100]  That should be great.
[33:47.200 --> 33:52.020]  Yeah, we've had a really, really great turnout from people from NYC and we always love having them.
[33:52.160 --> 33:57.120]  I mean, they usually throw the best room parties, so I expect that tradition to continue.
[33:57.360 --> 34:14.240]  But yeah, we're really proud of our presenter list and our events list and also, kind of to toot our own horns, we also work with Jason Scott and Radman to run currently North America's things that a lot of people don't know about.
[34:14.420 --> 34:15.660]  Tell us what a demo party is.
[34:16.220 --> 34:31.140]  They're really popular in Europe and what they are are parties in which people or groups will code together 3D audio-visual presentations and music simply for the purpose of doing it and for making art.
[34:31.800 --> 34:34.680]  Some of them are a little more complex than others.
[34:34.980 --> 34:39.440]  Some people limit themselves to, say, 4K memory or 64K memory.
[34:40.480 --> 34:49.500]  There's an event in Finland assembly that's absolutely huge, fills up a stadium and it's just kind of picking up steam again here in the U.S.
[34:49.640 --> 35:04.780]  Yeah, now this is actually something I saw at one of the I believe Dutch conferences or outdoor camps and I vowed that this has to come to the States or if it's not in the States already and I would love to see it at Hope as well but I'll certainly look forward to seeing it in Cleveland at Nauticon.
[35:05.000 --> 35:15.620]  Yeah, well and that's kind of why we really like having Block Party with us because it really accentuates the fact that we're all about creativity and art and music and all that other kind of stuff.
[35:16.500 --> 35:16.940]  Cool.
[35:17.440 --> 35:19.580]  So now what kind of turnout do you usually get?
[35:19.720 --> 35:22.040]  Do you limit it or is it pretty much unlimited?
[35:22.040 --> 35:24.280]  We do limit it because of hotel space.
[35:24.780 --> 35:26.780]  Currently we're limited to about 400 attendees.
[35:27.040 --> 35:29.880]  We still have a lot of registrations for sale though.
[35:30.140 --> 35:37.440]  Last year we had about 300 people including our presenters and staff and every year we seem to keep getting bigger and bigger so I'm not complaining.
[35:37.620 --> 35:39.720]  I like that size of a crowd.
[35:40.060 --> 35:52.620]  If I could have a choice I prefer to have it sort of reminds me of the old days where you got to know the people who come to the conferences not just a whole bunch of faces that look like they're in shock at half the time.
[35:52.940 --> 36:06.460]  Actually that's something we hear from a lot of our attendees and I kind of pride myself in the fact that I make an effort to try to talk to people and meet new people but I'm convinced that as we grow we can kind of have that same spirit and take it to other hacker cons.
[36:06.920 --> 36:21.020]  I think a lot of us are kind of antisocial and have a difficult time making those first contacts so through not a con hopefully we can at least start some of those conversations and meet some of these other friends at other conferences and keep those conversations going.
[36:21.400 --> 36:23.380]  So hopefully a lot of this will translate to hope.
[36:23.520 --> 36:30.880]  I for example am going to be throwing in my proposal soon for that to see if I can present but I know I'm going to be there.
[36:30.920 --> 36:34.720]  So hopefully I can meet some people new at Noticon and then meet them again at Hope.
[36:35.000 --> 36:53.260]  Yeah, well I think it's good for different conferences to kind of support each other because there are a lot of different conferences going on in this country in this world and we only hear about the bigger ones most of the time but Noticon is something I've always wanted to check out because first of all it happens in a city I don't think I've ever been in.
[36:53.320 --> 36:54.340]  I don't think I've ever been to Cleveland.
[36:54.560 --> 37:13.180]  Well, you know the city gets a bad rap and some of it rightfully so but there's a lot going on here and there's a lot of really smart people and even from the region we pull some really bright folks with some really great ideas some really great projects and you know our goal is to throw one hell of a party and every year we manage to do that.
[37:13.360 --> 37:19.760]  Well, you know I know Ohio in general gets a bad rap but I happen to like Ohio because I go there once a year for the Dayton Ham Bench and you guys are really good.
[37:19.760 --> 37:19.980]  Oh yeah, yeah.
[37:20.220 --> 37:22.100]  In fact, I saw you there a couple years back I think.
[37:22.280 --> 37:22.460]  Ah.
[37:23.560 --> 37:34.680]  It's an interesting place it's diverse the people there will surprise you and I imagine Cleveland has a lot of attributes as well so I'm definitely going in there with an open mind and certainly Well, good.
[37:35.260 --> 37:39.500]  And actually one of the benefits of Cleveland is that our hotel doesn't have a whole lot around it.
[37:39.560 --> 37:41.920]  People think, well you know, where am I going to eat food?
[37:42.060 --> 37:43.540]  Where am I going to hang out at night?
[37:43.860 --> 38:01.540]  The answer is you're going to hang out at the hotel and hang out with all the people that are at the con because we don't close the doors at night things stay open Yeah, you can't A hacker conference cannot close at night we've learned that Yeah And that's also it's difficult to find a place that will put on a hacker conference that understands that so it sounds like you guys are lucky insofar as
[38:01.540 --> 38:12.160]  getting We've been very lucky In fact, our hotel is the closest hotel to Brown Stadium downtown and this is our fifth year there and every year I ask them you know are you sure you're still cool with it?
[38:12.240 --> 38:30.460]  They're like yeah, yeah you people are fantastic everybody behaves and that's actually one of the unique things about Not A Con is since we are community we look after each other and look after ourselves you know if somebody starts doing something that's you know really not good for the community somebody in the community will step up and say hey,
[38:30.620 --> 38:53.400]  you know I don't think you should be doing that that's not cool let's do something more productive and positive now we can't talk about prices on the air because we're non-commercial but we can say that it's a it's a good deal and we can direct people to go to www.notacon that's n-o-t-a-c-o-n dot org and that gives you all the information on speakers on activities on admission how to get there
[38:53.400 --> 38:56.880]  things like that anything you want to tell us about speakers you might have lined up?
[38:57.200 --> 39:19.660]  Well, we have a couple of interesting folks Jason Scott and Redman put together some interesting speakers for Block Party including Fat Man and Jerry Ellsworth who are going to be talking about music and video game programming and demo coding we have Eric Meyer who lives locally actually and does a lot of work with CSS and HTML and works on those standards there's also a website of mine that I
[39:19.660 --> 39:32.920]  like to read a lot called the Daily WTF and it's basically tech horror stories from around the world We're getting thumbs up in the studio for that The guy who runs Alex actually lives about 15 minutes from me.
[39:33.100 --> 39:38.360]  So I had been with him a month ago, and he's going to be coming up and talking about software and a little bit about the website.
[39:39.000 --> 39:41.840]  Drew Curtis from Fark.com is going to be a guest of honor and hang out.
[39:42.920 --> 39:44.440]  Just a lot of really smart people.
[39:44.620 --> 39:46.220]  Did you say Fark.com?
[39:46.420 --> 39:46.780]  Pardon me?
[39:46.960 --> 39:48.040]  Fark.com?
[39:48.140 --> 39:49.000]  Fark.com.
[39:49.040 --> 39:49.840]  F-A-R-K.
[39:50.100 --> 39:50.460]  I'm sorry.
[39:50.740 --> 39:52.460]  I was wondering who owns that domain.
[39:52.600 --> 39:53.820]  I'd really like to know more about that.
[39:54.180 --> 39:54.820]  Fark.com.
[39:54.900 --> 39:55.060]  Okay.
[39:55.300 --> 39:56.400]  F-A-R-K, right?
[39:56.560 --> 39:56.780]  Yes.
[39:56.920 --> 39:57.140]  All right.
[39:57.720 --> 39:58.480]  And who else?
[39:59.260 --> 40:10.420]  Well, I like to say, you know, we have a lot of big-name presenters, but we also pride ourselves in having people that haven't presented before or who are presenting on topics that, you know, might not be appropriate, say DEF CON or HOPE or SHMOOCON or something like that.
[40:10.740 --> 40:19.640]  So we have a lot of really out-there talks, everything from personal privacy to FM music synthesis to election technologies, all kinds of really cool stuff.
[40:19.720 --> 40:28.340]  I'm particularly curious in any subject that might be thought of as not being appropriate for HOPE, because we try to open up the minds and doors.
[40:28.480 --> 40:29.280]  Yeah, exactly.
[40:29.800 --> 40:31.820]  Definitely want to see what you guys have there.
[40:32.040 --> 40:39.460]  I should point out that one of our off-the-hookers here, Redbird, is actually planning on flying out to Cleveland himself.
[40:39.800 --> 40:43.400]  In other words, flying an airplane out there with a bunch of us, by the way.
[40:43.400 --> 40:43.740]  Very cool.
[40:43.840 --> 40:44.820]  Are you going to be flying into Burke?
[40:45.020 --> 40:47.820]  Yes, the current plan is Burke, which is only a couple blocks away.
[40:47.980 --> 40:48.380]  Oh, my God, yeah.
[40:48.380 --> 40:49.000]  That's really awesome.
[40:49.240 --> 40:49.600]  Really, really close.
[40:49.640 --> 40:50.940]  We can all watch him land.
[40:51.460 --> 40:52.740]  This is what I wanted to ask you, Redbird.
[40:52.740 --> 40:53.200]  Let's not do that.
[40:53.340 --> 40:56.940]  We actually could, because there's a good vantage point from the parking garage.
[40:56.940 --> 40:57.380]  Yeah.
[40:57.640 --> 40:58.320]  Now, here's the thing.
[40:58.460 --> 41:00.400]  Okay, now, you're going to be coming in after...
[41:00.400 --> 41:02.900]  Mike and I are going, but we're going by commercial aviation.
[41:03.200 --> 41:03.440]  Yes.
[41:03.540 --> 41:04.860]  But we want to watch you land.
[41:04.960 --> 41:10.400]  How can you contact us as you're in the air saying, here I am, and I'm going to start landing now?
[41:10.680 --> 41:12.460]  You can't make a phone call from your plane, can you?
[41:12.620 --> 41:16.020]  Well, it's technically possible, but I will not be contacting you.
[41:16.100 --> 41:17.720]  I will have other things to do.
[41:17.920 --> 41:18.340]  Well, okay.
[41:19.180 --> 41:21.420]  You'll have passengers with nothing else to do.
[41:21.480 --> 41:25.780]  Maybe not Kevin can do it or something, but will you permit him to make a phone call from the air?
[41:25.780 --> 41:26.640]  Are you allowed to do that?
[41:27.000 --> 41:27.740]  I'm allowed to do that.
[41:27.740 --> 41:35.700]  Okay, so we're asking you now, without putting yourself in jeopardy, will you call us so that we can gather on the roof of the hotel and point and watch as you come?
[41:35.780 --> 41:36.820]  Because it would be dramatic.
[41:36.940 --> 41:38.680]  Don't you want to see videotape of your plane?
[41:38.680 --> 41:40.060]  I'll still be in New York at the time.
[41:40.160 --> 41:40.520]  Oh, really?
[41:40.660 --> 41:40.820]  Yeah.
[41:41.000 --> 41:41.600]  Oh, that's too bad.
[41:41.860 --> 41:43.000]  Well, it's good for me.
[41:43.520 --> 41:44.940]  Well, I'm not making any promises.
[41:44.960 --> 41:48.760]  And, of course, we're all going to gather as you take off, too, and head back to New York on, I believe, Sunday?
[41:49.280 --> 41:50.100]  I believe so, yes.
[41:50.100 --> 41:50.300]  Okay.
[41:50.600 --> 41:51.600]  So, yeah, this is...
[41:52.300 --> 41:55.540]  Froggy, have you had people come to your conference in this manner before?
[41:56.020 --> 42:00.840]  Well, I can't say that I've had anybody fly their own plane, but we've certainly had a lot of people coming from out of the country.
[42:01.640 --> 42:03.200]  But I think this will be a first.
[42:03.440 --> 42:03.660]  Uh-huh.
[42:03.660 --> 42:06.900]  What parts of the world do people come to not-a-con from?
[42:07.060 --> 42:09.700]  We have people from Germany coming this year, Canada.
[42:10.100 --> 42:11.460]  We've had people from Finland.
[42:12.660 --> 42:14.740]  I'm looking to get some attendees from India.
[42:15.800 --> 42:17.240]  All over the darn place.
[42:17.560 --> 42:18.520]  Most of the U.S.
[42:18.820 --> 42:19.800]  will be represented.
[42:21.920 --> 42:23.500]  Yeah, there's a whole slew of people.
[42:23.540 --> 42:24.420]  I can't even remember them all.
[42:24.540 --> 42:26.640]  Have you been to foreign conferences yourself?
[42:27.120 --> 42:32.560]  I haven't really had that opportunity yet, mostly because I spend all my money and time trying to keep not-a-con afloat.
[42:33.520 --> 42:35.940]  But I'd love to, say, for example, go to the CCC.
[42:36.340 --> 42:37.200]  That's kind of one of my goals.
[42:37.280 --> 42:40.900]  Yes, go to the next conference because you'll meet all kinds of people there, and it's very inspirational.
[42:41.200 --> 42:48.580]  Yeah, a lot of people are really twisting my arm to go, but I need to make sure that I can keep not-a-con going because it really is the highlight of my year.
[42:49.160 --> 42:50.420]  Oh, I know what you mean.
[42:50.460 --> 42:51.320]  I hear that.
[42:51.460 --> 42:59.220]  And it's something you both love and hate at the same time because it keeps you up all night, and you have to stress and worry about getting the thing organized.
[42:59.380 --> 43:01.020]  But, boy, it feels good when it happens.
[43:01.100 --> 43:10.440]  It really does, you know, especially to have participants come and say, you know, that this is the event that I look forward to every year or I learned something new or I made a job contact.
[43:10.600 --> 43:12.540]  We have even some of that here in Cleveland.
[43:13.280 --> 43:20.980]  We're speaking with Froggy from Cleveland, Ohio, organizer of the Not-a-Con Conference, which is coming up in, what is it, just about two weeks or so?
[43:21.080 --> 43:21.540]  Two weeks.
[43:21.680 --> 43:28.060]  So, yeah, this is the point in which I'm pulling out my hair and trying to get everything finalized, but we should be on track for a great show.
[43:28.240 --> 43:29.900]  April 4th through April 6th.
[43:29.900 --> 43:30.860]  That's over the weekend.
[43:31.100 --> 43:31.480]  Yes, sir.
[43:31.620 --> 43:34.400]  And, again, to get information and to register and all that kind of...
[43:34.400 --> 43:35.680]  You can still register online, right?
[43:35.780 --> 43:36.300]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[43:36.380 --> 43:38.540]  It should be open through at least Sunday.
[43:38.900 --> 43:39.180]  Okay.
[43:39.980 --> 43:45.900]  Go to www.notacon.org.
[43:47.200 --> 43:48.980]  And we hope to see a bunch of people out there.
[43:49.040 --> 43:49.700]  I'm looking forward to it.
[43:49.720 --> 43:51.060]  I really think this will be a lot of fun.
[43:51.060 --> 43:52.200]  Well, it will be.
[43:54.020 --> 43:58.680]  What I usually tell people is, if you don't have a good time at Not-a-Con, you're really trying hard.
[43:59.700 --> 44:04.680]  You know, because it's so easy to make new friends and to have a good time and to learn something new.
[44:05.220 --> 44:06.080]  And you're in Cleveland.
[44:06.540 --> 44:07.400]  And we're in Cleveland.
[44:07.540 --> 44:08.220]  Go figure, yeah.
[44:09.080 --> 44:13.660]  For those people who might be afraid of Cleveland, can you tell us some things that are good?
[44:13.800 --> 44:15.540]  I mean, you have the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, right?
[44:15.540 --> 44:18.800]  Actually, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is within spitting distance of the hotel.
[44:18.800 --> 44:19.840]  Now, we have the...
[44:19.840 --> 44:20.520]  Wait, wait, does that...
[44:20.520 --> 44:21.960]  Is the spitting bidirectional?
[44:22.140 --> 44:22.980]  Because that could be a problem.
[44:23.300 --> 44:23.660]  No.
[44:24.140 --> 44:26.420]  We also have a Science Center, Brown Stadium.
[44:27.440 --> 44:30.280]  And, you know, the whole town down is to explore.
[44:30.480 --> 44:33.480]  Also of note, the FBI building is two doors down.
[44:33.600 --> 44:33.880]  Oh!
[44:34.300 --> 44:35.800]  So, you know, I'm not saying...
[44:35.800 --> 44:37.040]  I'm just saying it's there.
[44:37.360 --> 44:39.340]  And we also have a federal building the other way.
[44:39.440 --> 44:42.580]  I imagine there's lots of traffic going back and forth between those two places that weekend.
[44:44.360 --> 44:45.500]  There tends to be, yeah.
[44:45.660 --> 44:47.380]  What kind of net connectivity do you guys have?
[44:47.380 --> 44:51.080]  We are working with a Cleveland-based ISP named Entunet and NetX.
[44:51.240 --> 44:57.080]  And we have a dedicated line-of-sight wireless link, I think, at three or four megabits, just for a con.
[44:57.280 --> 45:01.540]  And we have a whole crew of people that set up a network and overpower the hotel's wireless.
[45:01.820 --> 45:05.540]  And it's a fantastically stable network.
[45:05.540 --> 45:13.900]  In fact, the guy who gave us the account really laughed out loud when somebody decided last year to throw up DriftNet and throw up a porn spider.
[45:14.020 --> 45:14.980]  That was great fun.
[45:15.720 --> 45:18.720]  I can just imagine those people who don't know what a porn spider is hearing this.
[45:18.880 --> 45:19.460]  Yeah, yeah.
[45:19.780 --> 45:23.400]  Definitely not one of those things I wanted on one of the public walls, but hey, you know, it's a con.
[45:23.780 --> 45:26.920]  Okay, we're going to be taking phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[45:27.000 --> 45:29.340]  We've been talking with Froggy from Not A Con.
[45:29.840 --> 45:35.140]  And final question for you, Froggy, as far as people who might want to get to Cleveland, what do you suggest?
[45:35.300 --> 45:38.780]  Are there cheap alternatives, ways, is it a centrally located place?
[45:38.780 --> 45:42.100]  Sure, we do have a Greyhound station that isn't too far from the hotel.
[45:42.520 --> 45:45.120]  Amtrak is actually a walk from the hotel.
[45:46.140 --> 45:47.880]  So that might be a real cheap option.
[45:48.360 --> 45:52.600]  And generally speaking, flights to Cleveland aren't really that expensive because, hey, guess what?
[45:52.720 --> 45:53.760]  Nobody really wants to come here.
[45:54.740 --> 45:57.300]  So, you know, I think you can find some really great deals.
[45:57.860 --> 45:58.200]  All right.
[45:58.500 --> 45:59.820]  Well, Froggy, it's been great talking to you.
[45:59.900 --> 46:02.220]  We look forward to seeing you in Cleveland at Not A Con.
[46:02.500 --> 46:03.980]  And all the best.
[46:04.160 --> 46:04.840]  Good luck with everything.
[46:05.060 --> 46:05.640]  Thank you very much.
[46:05.640 --> 46:06.600]  I look forward to seeing you too.
[46:06.800 --> 46:07.100]  All right.
[46:07.340 --> 46:07.580]  Take care.
[46:07.860 --> 46:08.000]  Bye.
[46:08.760 --> 46:13.540]  And we've been talking with Froggy over there in Cleveland as far as the Not A Con conference.
[46:13.660 --> 46:14.380]  I'm looking forward to it.
[46:14.520 --> 46:16.660]  And you're really going to fly your plane over there, right, Brad Bird?
[46:17.100 --> 46:20.360]  You know, barring any thunderstorms or icing conditions or things like that.
[46:20.560 --> 46:21.420]  It's not your plane.
[46:21.540 --> 46:22.140]  You're renting a plane to do this.
[46:22.140 --> 46:22.720]  No, I'm renting a plane, yeah.
[46:22.900 --> 46:24.300]  And it's actually quite expensive to do that.
[46:24.340 --> 46:25.780]  You have to get a few people to...
[46:26.240 --> 46:32.080]  Yeah, it works out to, with three people, to cost maybe a little bit more than you would pay for a commercial airline ticket.
[46:32.260 --> 46:32.460]  Uh-huh.
[46:33.320 --> 46:34.280]  But it's, I guess...
[46:34.280 --> 46:35.100]  It's way more fun.
[46:35.100 --> 46:37.000]  It's better because you get to...
[46:37.000 --> 46:37.920]  Well, I don't know.
[46:38.000 --> 46:38.840]  You get to do all the things.
[46:39.180 --> 46:41.940]  You can do whatever you want in an airplane, I suppose.
[46:42.440 --> 46:43.760]  Well, no, but...
[46:43.760 --> 46:44.480]  Well, you can't.
[46:44.700 --> 46:45.920]  But I don't know.
[46:46.480 --> 46:49.200]  I haven't done that myself, but it must be kind of liberating.
[46:49.280 --> 46:50.740]  Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
[46:50.840 --> 46:51.220]  And scary.
[46:52.200 --> 46:54.580]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[46:55.020 --> 47:03.360]  Here at Off The Hook, if listeners have any comments on anything we've talked about tonight or anything else they'd like to share with us, that is the phone number, and we're open for the next 10 minutes or so.
[47:03.500 --> 47:06.460]  So, by all means, wherever you are in the world, we'd like to hear from you.
[47:06.580 --> 47:08.880]  212-209-2900.
[47:09.820 --> 47:10.900]  Any other stories?
[47:11.080 --> 47:15.400]  I have two stories from the United Kingdom, and maybe I should just read the headlines because...
[47:15.400 --> 47:15.820]  Just read the headlines.
[47:16.480 --> 47:20.900]  One story is, MI5 seeks powers to trawl records in New Terror Hunt.
[47:21.560 --> 47:23.480]  And what they want to do is they want to...
[47:23.480 --> 47:32.760]  The Oyster card, which is the RFID pass that people use to travel on the underground in London, they want just all the data all the time, whether they need it or not.
[47:32.760 --> 47:42.620]  Wait, so basically, that card, which basically allows you into the system and keeps track of where you've been, what stations you've entered, what stations you've left from, unlike in New York where you only have to swipe going in, you swipe going out there.
[47:43.380 --> 47:47.460]  You're saying that they want, what's it, real-time access to where everybody is at all times?
[47:47.620 --> 47:51.000]  I don't know if it's real-time or not, it doesn't say, but they just want all the data.
[47:51.160 --> 47:52.360]  But how is that linked to your identity?
[47:52.820 --> 47:55.000]  Well, if you've ever bought it with a credit card.
[47:55.200 --> 47:55.440]  Bernie?
[47:56.840 --> 48:18.780]  Well, I did research this and I think we even had a listener email us about this or not, but you can purchase an oyster card with cash, so I can't imagine that organized terrorists would not be doing that and buying a bunch of cards and just shuffling them around to just mess up any possible pattern that could possibly be detected.
[48:18.780 --> 48:21.120]  Well, maybe they just won't offer them by cash anymore.
[48:21.480 --> 48:24.680]  Well, that's a possibility or it could be this really isn't about finding terrorists.
[48:24.860 --> 48:31.520]  It could just be about establishing a database of who goes where for what other purposes the UK government wants to have.
[48:31.640 --> 48:34.440]  They do seem a bit obsessed with that concept and you have something else there, Mike.
[48:34.460 --> 48:37.720]  Also from the UK, the same day I think this story came out.
[48:37.900 --> 48:38.780]  Same newspaper, right?
[48:39.000 --> 48:39.920]  Well, same newspaper.
[48:40.920 --> 48:43.180]  Put young children on DNA list.
[48:43.300 --> 48:44.020]  Urge police.
[48:44.240 --> 48:46.480]  Quote, we must target potential offenders.
[48:47.020 --> 48:47.760]  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[48:47.860 --> 48:48.360]  Well, stop, stop.
[48:48.360 --> 48:49.400]  Yeah, this isn't for their protection.
[48:49.400 --> 48:50.600]  This is to target the kids?
[48:50.860 --> 49:02.980]  Yeah, so this is what they want to do is they want to identify potential offenders while they're which some experts believe is possible in children as young as five according to this article.
[49:03.180 --> 49:04.520]  Wait, you're reading that from the article.
[49:04.680 --> 49:05.560]  That's not just you saying this.
[49:05.720 --> 49:26.120]  Gary Pug, Pugh, Director of Forensic Sciences at Scotland Yard and the new DNA spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers said a debate was needed on how far Britain should go in identifying potential offenders given that some experts believe it is possible to identify future offending traits in children as young as five.
[49:26.360 --> 49:28.440]  That's a direct quote from The Guardian.
[49:28.760 --> 49:31.580]  So they want to collect everybody's DNA and...
[49:31.580 --> 49:33.900]  Relief Potential Future Offenders DNA.
[49:34.620 --> 49:35.060]  Okay.
[49:35.140 --> 49:41.240]  They want to somehow label these kids as potential future offenders collect their DNA and then do what?
[49:41.680 --> 49:42.260]  Exterminate them?
[49:42.360 --> 49:42.460]  What?
[49:42.520 --> 49:43.580]  What's the plan after that?
[49:43.860 --> 49:50.480]  Well, then they'll know when if the crime is committed and there's DNA at the scene then they'll instantly round up all the five-year-olds.
[49:50.800 --> 49:54.420]  Well, I guess the theory is the five-year-olds will not stay five forever.
[49:54.980 --> 49:55.700]  Probably true.
[49:55.840 --> 49:59.160]  Although I don't know how many will want to advance from five in that kind of a society.
[49:59.900 --> 50:00.700]  My goodness.
[50:00.700 --> 50:01.880]  This is not science fiction.
[50:02.140 --> 50:05.620]  Have you checked that to make sure it's not April 1st and make sure it's not from a science fiction site?
[50:05.740 --> 50:10.100]  It's Sunday, March 16th, The Observer, which is part of The Guardian or something.
[50:10.760 --> 50:11.400]  My goodness.
[50:11.720 --> 50:12.000]  All right.
[50:12.480 --> 50:18.600]  Civil Liberty Groups, by the way, condemned his comments by likening them to an excerpt from, quote, a science fiction novel.
[50:18.700 --> 50:19.320]  Well, it is.
[50:19.480 --> 50:20.160]  Exactly what it is.
[50:20.160 --> 50:21.500]  They should be doing more than condemning.
[50:21.560 --> 50:25.180]  I don't know what's above condemning, but they should be throwing rocks at it or something.
[50:25.600 --> 50:26.560]  This is ridiculous.
[50:26.900 --> 50:29.820]  They're always way worse than us, but we always seem to catch up to them.
[50:29.900 --> 50:30.160]  We do.
[50:30.700 --> 50:31.240]  They're the model.
[50:31.380 --> 50:32.500]  They're the model that we follow.
[50:32.620 --> 50:33.140]  It's not good.
[50:34.000 --> 50:37.020]  But I'm surprised they're not touting it as for your child's protection.
[50:37.220 --> 50:38.080]  That must be in there somewhere.
[50:38.200 --> 50:39.460]  No, it's not for the child's protection.
[50:39.460 --> 50:43.580]  It's for society's protection from the dangerous children when they are no longer children.
[50:43.740 --> 50:48.440]  Okay, but how are they going to get the parents of these potentially dangerous children to agree to let their kids have their DNA?
[50:48.740 --> 50:54.780]  Well, Pew, Pug, whatever his name is, did admit that the deeply controversial suggestion raised issues of parental consent.
[50:54.940 --> 50:55.820]  Oh, good for him.
[50:55.820 --> 50:56.640]  He's a realist.
[50:56.740 --> 50:57.540]  Thank goodness for this.
[50:58.040 --> 50:59.020]  Okay, let's take some phone calls.
[50:59.020 --> 51:00.960]  It's 212-209-2900.
[51:01.160 --> 51:02.080]  And good evening.
[51:02.260 --> 51:02.940]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:03.240 --> 51:12.960]  Hi, I heard a story on civil liberties about there being 900,000 names on the no-fly list.
[51:13.000 --> 51:17.680]  And I thought maybe you could do some research and get some more details about that.
[51:18.040 --> 51:18.980]  Such as?
[51:18.980 --> 51:19.720]  Who they are, maybe?
[51:20.240 --> 51:22.360]  And how they're getting them off there.
[51:22.580 --> 51:35.200]  They say that people who are supposed to be on have not been put on promptly and lots of people who didn't belong there have been on and they haven't been gotten off and they're trying to revamp that.
[51:36.160 --> 51:39.000]  And I was wondering more details, please.
[51:39.340 --> 51:39.960]  Here's a question.
[51:40.160 --> 51:41.020]  Thank you for that call.
[51:41.260 --> 51:44.080]  Here's a question for you, Redbird, as a pilot.
[51:44.860 --> 51:47.560]  Now, let's say that you started your own little airline.
[51:47.840 --> 51:55.800]  Would you then be entitled to get a copy of the no-fly list so that you will know if you put somebody on your airplane if they're supposed to be there or not?
[51:55.920 --> 51:56.660]  I have no idea.
[51:56.660 --> 51:57.680]  I have absolutely no idea.
[51:57.680 --> 51:59.340]  I mean, I'd like to get a hold of that information.
[51:59.480 --> 52:00.060]  See, here's the thing.
[52:00.220 --> 52:03.560]  There's 900,000 people on this terrorist watch list.
[52:03.640 --> 52:04.080]  Almost a million.
[52:04.220 --> 52:04.660]  Almost a million.
[52:04.820 --> 52:11.220]  If there were actually almost a million terrorists in the United States, putting them on a list would not be sufficient to stop them.
[52:12.020 --> 52:16.800]  Well, yeah, but them knowing that there is a list out there might be enough to make them be afraid.
[52:17.120 --> 52:19.160]  Just like those five-year-olds with their DNA being stored.
[52:19.460 --> 52:21.160]  I mean, think about one million people.
[52:21.160 --> 52:23.240]  That's a third of a percent of the country.
[52:23.420 --> 52:35.160]  If they were actively all going out and building bombs or whatever terrorists are alleged to do, we would be in serious trouble, much more serious trouble than could possibly be stopped by any of these harebrained schemes.
[52:35.220 --> 52:36.900]  I still would like to get a hold of the data, though.
[52:37.120 --> 52:39.800]  I mean, I don't want to let go of that goal.
[52:39.960 --> 52:40.940]  I would like to know that.
[52:41.380 --> 52:44.400]  And it also raises questions as to who is entitled to it.
[52:44.460 --> 52:47.020]  Is it any airline gets that information or is it just the TSA?
[52:47.020 --> 52:48.000]  I think it's just the TSA.
[52:48.160 --> 52:59.360]  But, I mean, Mike has always mentioned in the past and I think this is really the important point here is that if the TSA was doing their job, anybody should be able to board a plane and not be dangerous.
[52:59.600 --> 53:01.440]  I mean, they should not...
[53:01.440 --> 53:07.380]  If the TSA was actually doing their job, which they're obviously not because there are all these studies that show that people...
[53:07.380 --> 53:11.640]  You know, government tests have proven that you can sneak dangerous stuff onto planes.
[53:11.760 --> 53:18.160]  If they were doing their job, that would not be possible and nobody would be dangerous regardless of whether or not they were on the no-fly list.
[53:18.860 --> 53:19.660]  Okay, let's take another phone call.
[53:20.980 --> 53:21.780]  And good evening.
[53:22.060 --> 53:24.420]  You were calling before but now you're not.
[53:24.480 --> 53:25.140]  Let's try over here.
[53:25.420 --> 53:25.960]  Good evening.
[53:26.140 --> 53:26.980]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:27.780 --> 53:28.500]  Oh, good evening.
[53:28.720 --> 53:29.720]  Thank you for taking my call.
[53:29.880 --> 53:30.260]  No problem.
[53:31.240 --> 53:33.520]  If I could say a couple of comments and questions.
[53:33.860 --> 53:34.260]  Arthur C.
[53:34.360 --> 53:35.940]  Clark, amazing mind.
[53:36.160 --> 53:37.680]  Why did he move to Sri Lanka?
[53:37.920 --> 53:41.160]  And I always wondered, it looked like the...
[53:41.160 --> 53:45.320]  No offense to Islam, that looks like the kebab that the...
[53:45.320 --> 53:46.880]  Is there any reference to that?
[53:47.000 --> 53:57.820]  And what's also sort of ironic is Ground Zero has that dark black shroud almost in the same shape of that and that was a meteorite that I believe fell to Earth.
[53:58.320 --> 53:59.940]  Now that's a sense of sugar, but...
[53:59.940 --> 54:02.940]  All right, you know, thanks for the comments about Arthur C.
[54:03.020 --> 54:07.980]  Clark, but I, you know, I don't want to get into shrouds and images and things like that.
[54:07.980 --> 54:09.020]  I don't know why he moved to Sri Lanka.
[54:09.160 --> 54:09.400]  I like that.
[54:09.440 --> 54:12.040]  I think it might have been because he likes scuba diving or something.
[54:12.340 --> 54:12.940]  Maybe, perhaps.
[54:13.320 --> 54:14.740]  He was 90 years old.
[54:14.900 --> 54:16.440]  Well, he didn't move there when he was 90.
[54:16.680 --> 54:18.040]  He's lived there since the 1960s.
[54:18.620 --> 54:20.600]  But this might just be a very nice part of the world.
[54:21.080 --> 54:21.840]  Have you ever been to Sri Lanka?
[54:21.840 --> 54:23.740]  Don't quote me on that, but I've heard that.
[54:23.880 --> 54:24.860]  Let's take one more.
[54:25.480 --> 54:26.140]  And good evening.
[54:26.360 --> 54:27.060]  You are on Off the Hook.
[54:27.540 --> 54:28.260]  Hey, how you doing?
[54:28.400 --> 54:30.220]  Okay, man, you're on some crazy phone there.
[54:30.220 --> 54:30.920]  I apologize.
[54:31.260 --> 54:34.740]  It's raining and, you know, the driving is not so unnoisy.
[54:34.940 --> 54:42.200]  But the two things I want to really pick out, you mentioned about the new East Coast-based time station.
[54:42.320 --> 54:42.500]  Yes.
[54:42.500 --> 54:54.020]  It's really annoying when they decide on a whim to change the daylight savings rules because all these smart items that are supposed to follow the rules are totally obsolete.
[54:54.500 --> 54:55.740]  And they get kind of silly.
[54:56.200 --> 55:00.940]  But you either have to change it twice, which is silly, or twice as much, I should say.
[55:01.400 --> 55:03.200]  Or you just set it to...
[55:03.200 --> 55:09.180]  I mean, it'd be nice if they read the television signal, which a lot of them don't, or if they read...
[55:09.180 --> 55:14.300]  So you don't even need a radio station to synchronize.
[55:14.400 --> 55:18.100]  You could just use, you know, a local PBS station, which has been around for a while, too.
[55:18.320 --> 55:19.060]  That's number one.
[55:19.120 --> 55:24.140]  But number two, you're talking about security, the lack thereof in the post office.
[55:24.340 --> 55:34.860]  You know, with a lot of Dell computers, you could pretty much erase the memory of all of them, taking them back to a factory state, sense, or a factory state, without a password.
[55:35.120 --> 55:39.280]  At least IBM forces you to use a password that it doesn't.
[55:39.280 --> 55:51.400]  If you know the keystroke, you could pretty much, like a janitor, go, or not necessarily a janitor, but somebody could just go to all the computers at a workplace and basically erase every single one of them.
[55:51.460 --> 55:52.800]  There's a Dell computer sitting right here.
[55:52.860 --> 55:53.540]  What's the keystroke?
[55:54.060 --> 55:56.680]  I think it's Control-F11 upon startup.
[55:57.140 --> 55:57.760]  Is that true?
[55:57.820 --> 56:08.700]  And it's not like you can't even look in the manual, and hopefully you could probably, if you know the keystroke, it doesn't matter if you know the manual or not, but even if you didn't know the keystroke, look it up in the manual.
[56:08.980 --> 56:10.100]  I'm going to get blamed if this happens.
[56:10.160 --> 56:14.760]  But it doesn't, I mean, once you have physical access to a computer, there's no stopping you from doing anything to it.
[56:14.800 --> 56:18.020]  No, but this isn't even like a password that you can get into the operating system.
[56:25.760 --> 56:43.420]  It's a very good point, and it's something that could be easily prevented, and yeah, something I'm glad you brought to our attention, and maybe somebody will do something about it someday.
[56:43.780 --> 56:45.800]  Prevented and then bypassed by a screwdriver.
[56:46.120 --> 56:47.480]  Well, yeah, but then you have a screwdriver.
[56:47.660 --> 56:49.640]  It's a little bit different than hitting F11 or whatever.
[56:50.380 --> 56:51.780]  Okay, we are out of time.
[56:51.980 --> 56:55.880]  The personal computer people are coming, and we have another tribute to Arthur C.
[56:55.960 --> 56:57.200]  Clarke on the way out.
[56:57.280 --> 57:00.460]  This is the other music from 2001, A Space Odyssey.
[57:00.460 --> 57:07.520]  The first piece we played was Richard Strauss, also Sparks on Thrusta, and this, of course, is Johann Strauss with...
[57:07.520 --> 57:08.120]  No relation.
[57:08.340 --> 57:09.720]  No relation, no relation at all.
[57:09.960 --> 57:10.700]  The Blue Danube.
[57:11.580 --> 57:21.500]  And boy, this brings back memories of just seeing space stations and lunar modules and things like that, and forever, forever in my mind when I hear this piece, that is what I think of.
[57:21.640 --> 57:24.380]  So, yeah, music and film, it can have a big effect on your life.
[57:25.020 --> 57:26.080]  That's it for our show tonight.
[57:26.220 --> 57:27.180]  Manuel Gostin for Off The Hook.
[57:27.240 --> 57:29.940]  Thanks, everybody, for calling in, and we'll see you next week.
[57:30.220 --> 57:30.500]  Good night.
[59:09.990 --> 59:10.630]  Good night.
[01:00:00.230 --> 01:00:00.550]  Yes.
[01:00:01.850 --> 01:00:02.810]  Yes, yes, yes.
[01:00:03.990 --> 01:00:04.630]  Just wonderful.
[01:00:06.390 --> 01:00:07.290]  Are you okay?