[00:00.000 --> 00:03.740]  You can find us online at fsrn.org.
[00:04.360 --> 00:08.060]  Today's newscast was produced by Kristen Schwartz and Monica Lopez.
[00:08.460 --> 00:10.540]  Our headlines editor is Shannon Young.
[00:10.900 --> 00:12.300]  Our Washington, D.C.
[00:12.440 --> 00:17.920]  editor is Leanne Caldwell, and our technical team includes Eric Klein and Antonio Ortiz.
[00:18.200 --> 00:22.620]  From WMNF Community Radio in Tampa, I'm Nell Abram.
[00:28.800 --> 00:31.300]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:31.900 --> 00:33.580]  The time is 7 o'clock exactly.
[00:33.640 --> 00:34.680]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:21.260 --> 02:22.220]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:22.320 --> 02:23.640]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:23.740 --> 02:33.520]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, where we're here for the very last edition of the fundraiser for Off the Hook.
[02:33.620 --> 02:41.640]  And it's significant, because this is the only time I can remember ever in the history of the program since 1988, where we've been on for every single week, not preempted once.
[02:41.640 --> 02:47.020]  And I think that's a testament to you listeners out there with the amazing amount of support you've shown.
[02:47.580 --> 02:51.260]  We've raised over $2,000 every single week in an hour.
[02:51.440 --> 02:53.200]  And last week, we raised over $4,000.
[02:53.340 --> 02:55.740]  So that's simply staggering.
[02:56.420 --> 02:57.380]  Let's introduce people.
[02:57.600 --> 02:59.300]  We've got Mike over here.
[02:59.380 --> 03:00.000]  I'm staggered.
[03:00.040 --> 03:01.020]  I don't know if I can be introduced.
[03:01.460 --> 03:02.160]  It's a staggered.
[03:02.260 --> 03:02.800]  We're all staggered.
[03:03.480 --> 03:05.260]  We've got on the other side of the room now, Kevin.
[03:05.700 --> 03:06.100]  Hello.
[03:06.460 --> 03:08.000]  Is that the voice of Junts I hear?
[03:08.480 --> 03:09.320]  Not yet, but yeah.
[03:09.320 --> 03:10.540]  How about that?
[03:10.760 --> 03:12.820]  You're usually driving in at this time, aren't you?
[03:12.920 --> 03:13.280]  Yeah, I'm late.
[03:13.420 --> 03:16.160]  So the fact that you're here must make this a really special occasion.
[03:16.320 --> 03:16.860]  It's very special.
[03:17.060 --> 03:19.460]  Well, you know, we did say that we have a major announcement to make tonight.
[03:19.660 --> 03:25.920]  And, you know, for the entire afternoon, I've been fielding calls from the major media, wanting to know what the major announcement is.
[03:26.020 --> 03:27.200]  Got a call from Fox News.
[03:27.580 --> 03:28.800]  Can you just tell me early?
[03:28.920 --> 03:30.020]  I said, Bill, I can't do that.
[03:30.480 --> 03:31.780]  People have to wait their turn.
[03:31.900 --> 03:32.660]  Everybody has to wait.
[03:33.240 --> 03:34.060]  Is that so?
[03:34.160 --> 03:34.740]  Well, it's true.
[03:34.920 --> 03:35.620]  It's only fair.
[03:35.820 --> 03:37.820]  You know, it wouldn't show favoritism.
[03:37.820 --> 03:42.660]  I mean, it would show favoritism if we let people know beforehand what the major announcement is.
[03:42.740 --> 03:43.580]  But we'll get to that.
[03:43.660 --> 03:44.060]  We'll get to that.
[03:44.120 --> 03:44.600]  All in good time.
[03:44.800 --> 03:45.660]  I know what it is.
[03:45.940 --> 03:46.580]  Oh, yes.
[03:46.580 --> 03:48.260]  I think everybody in the room might know what it is.
[03:48.380 --> 03:50.900]  But the people listening don't know yet.
[03:50.900 --> 03:51.860]  And there's a reason for that.
[03:52.020 --> 03:53.640]  You have to sort of channel information.
[03:53.840 --> 03:57.060]  If you release everything willy-nilly, there's mayhem and chaos.
[03:57.220 --> 03:59.880]  You have to sort of say one thing and then the next thing.
[03:59.980 --> 04:01.440]  That way it can be ordered.
[04:01.440 --> 04:05.120]  Now, one thing we haven't said yet is there's the voice of Bernie S.
[04:05.180 --> 04:05.520]  in Philadelphia.
[04:06.520 --> 04:07.000]  Greetings.
[04:07.360 --> 04:09.260]  I'm staggering here in Philadelphia myself.
[04:09.560 --> 04:11.660]  Well, why are you staggering?
[04:11.920 --> 04:13.320]  Are you out of a bar or something?
[04:13.560 --> 04:27.000]  No, I'm just staggering from the support and generosity of our loyal listeners out there who have done a lot to keep WBAI on the air and the show on the air.
[04:27.000 --> 04:30.000]  Well, you see, Bernie, you might be surprised by that, but I'm not surprised.
[04:30.540 --> 04:32.160]  I'm not staggered at all.
[04:32.240 --> 04:32.860]  I'm not shocked.
[04:33.160 --> 04:35.560]  I'm not blown away by this because I expected it.
[04:36.360 --> 04:37.140]  Well, good for you.
[04:37.180 --> 04:38.360]  You have more confidence than I do.
[04:38.680 --> 04:44.460]  No, I think we all pretty much expected our listeners to come through for us because they have so many times in the past.
[04:45.160 --> 04:48.340]  But it's just the spirit of the place, the spirit of the show.
[04:48.460 --> 04:49.140]  It's really cool.
[04:50.060 --> 04:53.320]  We, like we said, this is the last of the fundraising shows.
[04:53.460 --> 04:56.220]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[04:56.380 --> 05:00.400]  If you want to call up for any of the things that we offered in the last few weeks, feel free to do that now.
[05:00.720 --> 05:06.680]  We are going to have something rather special to share with folks in just a little bit as part of our major announcement.
[05:06.680 --> 05:13.680]  But before we get to that, I'd like to know if people out there have anything in the news that they'd like to discuss this week.
[05:13.680 --> 05:15.120]  Anything, Bernie, down there in Philadelphia?
[05:16.540 --> 05:17.640]  Stop back to me in a minute.
[05:18.020 --> 05:20.040]  Make the rounds and I'll come up with something in a minute.
[05:20.080 --> 05:21.280]  Well, I have something for you, actually.
[05:21.480 --> 05:23.460]  It has to do with Earthlink, I believe.
[05:23.780 --> 05:24.980]  Oh, that's very true.
[05:24.980 --> 05:26.500]  It's local news here in Philadelphia.
[05:27.560 --> 05:36.280]  Some of our more loyal listeners will recall that Philadelphia, about four years ago, launched an experiment to have a municipal Wi-Fi network.
[05:36.280 --> 05:41.620]  That is a Wi-Fi network throughout the whole city limits of Philadelphia that was supposed to be free to all.
[05:42.140 --> 05:48.120]  Well, the mayor at that time, John Street, figured, well, we should probably get some money out of this deal.
[05:48.120 --> 05:59.460]  So he decided to charge a nominal fee for it and get Earthlink to do it and have Earthlink pay the city a million dollars a year for using the city's light poles.
[05:59.920 --> 06:09.240]  And I think that was a major reason for the ultimate collapse of this unfortunate program, which Earthlink announced a few days ago.
[06:09.240 --> 06:16.020]  They were backing out of the deal and would be shutting off the whole Wi-Fi network across Philadelphia on June 12th.
[06:16.020 --> 06:17.940]  And I am a user of that network.
[06:17.940 --> 06:18.520]  I'm a customer.
[06:18.860 --> 06:28.500]  And so I will lose my Internet connectivity on June 12th, thanks to this mismanagement of this, what had a lot of potential to it, network.
[06:29.320 --> 06:35.440]  Well, it seems like all these plans to introduce Wi-Fi citywide just don't seem to work out.
[06:35.500 --> 06:38.660]  Is this because they just didn't realize what it was going to cause?
[06:38.760 --> 06:39.940]  Did they really that incompetent?
[06:42.520 --> 06:44.360]  Well, incompetence has a lot to do with it.
[06:44.360 --> 06:52.560]  But technology has some limitations as far as using the 802.11 type technology and a large mesh throughout a city.
[06:52.560 --> 06:53.340]  It can be done.
[06:53.520 --> 06:58.880]  But whenever you have a government involved too much in it, it sometimes isn't managed well.
[06:58.880 --> 07:13.720]  I think cities that have started a nonprofit corporation, as Philadelphia did, but have it peopled by individuals who are really skilled and qualified in making sure the network runs.
[07:13.960 --> 07:21.580]  And to run it as a nonprofit organization, Philadelphia tried to run this as a for-profit organization, but managed by a nonprofit.
[07:21.820 --> 07:23.060]  And it just doesn't work.
[07:23.180 --> 07:25.280]  There's no way to make money out of municipal Wi-Fi.
[07:25.280 --> 07:27.920]  It should be free like a public park.
[07:28.580 --> 07:32.700]  Some people would say, no, let the private market work it out.
[07:32.700 --> 07:39.840]  But there's no reason why Wi-Fi shouldn't be available in communities to just average people that might not be able to afford it.
[07:39.940 --> 07:47.280]  Or it's just a useful thing to have if you go to a park or any public place to have free Wi-Fi furnished by the community.
[07:47.780 --> 07:51.440]  And I think it would benefit the community in a lot of ways.
[07:52.360 --> 07:52.680]  Absolutely.
[07:52.980 --> 07:53.980]  I couldn't agree more.
[07:54.620 --> 07:58.920]  And it's something that, you know, when you turn on your computer, you just sort of expect there to be a signal.
[07:59.140 --> 08:04.860]  There should be Wi-Fi signals no matter where you are, if you're sitting in a park, if you're sitting in a cafe, if you're in your home.
[08:05.020 --> 08:07.520]  There should always be some way of communicating with the Internet.
[08:07.520 --> 08:17.740]  And I think whether or not these guys get their act together, it's something that will happen one way or another with WiMAX or whatever gets developed in the future.
[08:19.780 --> 08:22.700]  So I'm sorry about your Internet access down there in Philadelphia.
[08:22.780 --> 08:23.560]  I hope you have a backup plan.
[08:24.420 --> 08:27.320]  Well, I can always connect through my cellular phone.
[08:27.460 --> 08:29.700]  But that's pretty easy yet, so that could be a problem.
[08:30.040 --> 08:30.880]  We'll have to find out.
[08:30.900 --> 08:33.180]  By the way, is my phone any less echoey tonight?
[08:33.180 --> 08:36.760]  I did a software upgrade on it, and it may be less echoey.
[08:36.760 --> 08:40.760]  Well, I've sort of gotten into the habit of turning you down when you're not talking because of the echo.
[08:40.840 --> 08:45.380]  But what I'll do is I'll keep you up, and we'll see if you echo.
[08:45.500 --> 08:47.160]  And if you start to echo, we're going to turn you down again.
[08:47.180 --> 08:47.580]  How's that?
[08:48.000 --> 08:48.400]  Okay.
[08:48.740 --> 08:49.160]  Fair enough.
[08:49.800 --> 08:50.400]  All right.
[08:51.560 --> 08:56.720]  Well, we've got all kinds of fun things going on in the studio here tonight.
[08:57.200 --> 08:58.800]  Nothing but hecticness.
[08:59.480 --> 09:06.740]  Again, our phone number is 212-209-2950 for pledging and for various levels of support.
[09:06.760 --> 09:10.380]  Again, any pledged $25 and above, you'll get the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[09:10.600 --> 09:14.340]  And I guess I should also point out the sweatshirt deal that we have.
[09:14.860 --> 09:17.180]  What was that, $50 that we had them for?
[09:17.380 --> 09:18.800]  212-209-2950.
[09:19.060 --> 09:23.780]  For a pledge of $50, you get both the sweatshirt and the t-shirt, which...
[09:24.380 --> 09:25.360]  That's right, isn't it, Mike?
[09:25.580 --> 09:27.500]  It's $50 for the sweatshirt and the t-shirt?
[09:27.580 --> 09:28.100]  That's right, yeah.
[09:28.100 --> 09:28.600]  Okay, good.
[09:29.020 --> 09:30.100]  I don't want to give out the wrong numbers.
[09:30.180 --> 09:31.460]  212-209-2950.
[09:32.060 --> 09:39.880]  That's the brand-new 2600 hooded sweatshirt, gray color with the...
[09:39.880 --> 09:40.120]  What?
[09:40.480 --> 09:40.960]  Not Kevin.
[09:41.000 --> 09:41.500]  You describe it.
[09:41.520 --> 09:42.280]  You're wearing a damn thing.
[09:42.600 --> 09:43.280]  It's gray.
[09:43.420 --> 09:43.640]  Uh-huh.
[09:43.760 --> 09:45.980]  It has a zipper and a hood.
[09:47.000 --> 09:47.280]  Okay.
[09:47.840 --> 09:49.000]  There's more to it than that, though.
[09:49.020 --> 09:50.560]  Yeah, there is so much more to it than that.
[09:50.560 --> 09:54.160]  Well, across the front, in red lettering, it says 2600.
[09:54.400 --> 09:54.800]  Okay.
[09:54.920 --> 09:57.660]  And then on the back, in also red lettering, hacker.
[09:58.380 --> 09:58.780]  Amazing.
[09:58.980 --> 09:59.340]  Amazing.
[10:00.000 --> 10:02.660]  For a pledge of $50 and for a pledge of $25.
[10:02.660 --> 10:06.220]  We have other premiums down there, things we've talked about in the last few weeks as well.
[10:06.760 --> 10:08.000]  I heard an echo there, didn't you?
[10:08.140 --> 10:08.640]  I heard an echo.
[10:08.740 --> 10:08.920]  Yeah.
[10:09.140 --> 10:10.040]  Bernie, you're on notice.
[10:10.760 --> 10:11.360]  Ah, sorry.
[10:12.640 --> 10:20.080]  And all sorts of things, if you call 212-209-2950, that we'll have available for you to...
[10:20.680 --> 10:21.520]  to partake in.
[10:22.760 --> 10:25.140]  But, for now, shall we just...
[10:25.140 --> 10:26.960]  Well, Mike, do you have something as well that you wanted to share?
[10:27.120 --> 10:28.400]  Or you have a piece of paper there?
[10:28.440 --> 10:31.600]  I have a lot of paper, but none as important as the special announcement.
[10:31.860 --> 10:32.020]  Okay.
[10:32.100 --> 10:34.140]  So, you know, who told him what the special announcement is?
[10:34.280 --> 10:34.600]  You did.
[10:34.940 --> 10:35.140]  Oh.
[10:35.980 --> 10:36.420]  All right.
[10:36.520 --> 10:38.020]  Remind me to chastise myself later.
[10:38.920 --> 10:39.360]  All right.
[10:39.360 --> 10:43.880]  I see in the studio, Carol Long, who is an editor at Wiley Publications.
[10:44.060 --> 10:53.360]  Now, I can only imagine the reason why we have an editor from Wiley Publications in the studio is because we're going to be talking about some kind of publication, some kind of book, perhaps.
[10:53.660 --> 10:54.160]  That's correct.
[10:54.360 --> 10:54.620]  Wow.
[10:55.260 --> 10:57.280]  Well, then, this must be...
[10:57.280 --> 11:10.600]  This must be the program, then, where we announce for the entire world to hear the existence of something that has been long heralded, something that has been long demanded, in fact, by listeners and readers.
[11:10.600 --> 11:17.860]  Yes, I'm referring to the best of 2600 coming out as a book.
[11:19.000 --> 11:20.300]  Am I accurate on that?
[11:20.300 --> 11:21.520]  You're absolutely right.
[11:22.180 --> 11:40.740]  Carol is from Wiley Publishing, and we can announce tonight that we have been working on this for the last bunch of months, and basically compiling out of every single issue that we ever put out of 2600 Magazine, the first issue came out in January of 1984,
[11:41.400 --> 11:55.160]  going through every single issue, finding the articles that we thought were the best, and compiling them all into a massive, a massive book that is going to be available in time for the HOPE Conference in July.
[11:56.180 --> 12:10.600]  And, well, Carol, maybe you could describe to us, obviously, we're not the typical type of book writers, and probably dealing with us was different than dealing with anybody else that you've ever had to... you must have dealt with many, many people over the years.
[12:10.780 --> 12:19.160]  Well, I have, but I think this experience, actually, is one of... been a really good experience.
[12:19.560 --> 12:32.360]  My specialty is in networking and security, so I have other security authors, and it's true that we've never done such an important collection.
[12:32.820 --> 13:00.660]  And I think, as I've mentioned to you, Emmanuel, I don't even want to use the term collection, because when you described the process that the team went through to not only select the best of, but even more importantly, the fact that you did so much of your own writing to position this and to create sections of it.
[13:00.880 --> 13:14.740]  So, you know, I think you guys have worked absolutely furiously and really under the gun for Wiley, and we have, shall we say, pun pun, great hopes for it.
[13:15.520 --> 13:15.920]  Absolutely.
[13:16.600 --> 13:17.940]  Now, you mentioned the team.
[13:18.100 --> 13:20.960]  I guess this is as good a time as any to introduce who the team is.
[13:21.980 --> 13:33.020]  Basically, what we... the way we started the whole process out, we had four of us all together that basically went through... if you've ever seen the entire collection of 2600, it's a big pile.
[13:34.000 --> 13:42.040]  And we had not Kevin, and we had Junts, and I guess this is the reason why you're in the studio today, is because we're talking about this.
[13:42.040 --> 13:42.340]  Yeah.
[13:42.580 --> 13:43.500]  It's a heavy box.
[13:43.520 --> 13:43.840]  You're right.
[13:44.240 --> 13:45.080]  It really is.
[13:45.180 --> 13:46.320]  You could hurt somebody with it.
[13:46.500 --> 13:46.960]  That's right.
[13:47.020 --> 13:48.780]  And we have used it as a weapon on a couple of occasions.
[13:48.960 --> 13:50.100]  I think the book's a little lighter, though.
[13:50.340 --> 13:50.800]  Just a little bit.
[13:50.800 --> 13:51.000]  Yeah.
[13:51.140 --> 13:52.660]  Well, not much, but... Not much.
[13:52.660 --> 13:53.720]  How big is the book?
[13:54.420 --> 13:55.380]  Well, let's get to that.
[13:55.440 --> 13:56.620]  Let me finish introducing the team first.
[13:56.860 --> 14:02.000]  And Lurid from Ohio, who is not with us yet, but supposedly will be with us sometime this hour.
[14:02.060 --> 14:03.660]  I think he's racing home to get to the telephone.
[14:04.500 --> 14:09.660]  The four of us got together starting, I believe, in January of this year.
[14:09.800 --> 14:11.920]  We had to really kind of move fast on this.
[14:12.100 --> 14:19.220]  We actually were working on it beforehand, going through the issues, but actually meeting for the first time in January of this year.
[14:19.340 --> 14:30.200]  Now, as far as that process went, Junts, I think you can probably recall that first day where a bunch of us sort of just got together at a retreat, more or less.
[14:30.200 --> 14:30.420]  Yeah.
[14:30.500 --> 14:36.280]  We all collected at the secret hideaway, the best of 2,600 writing hideout, I guess.
[14:36.760 --> 14:36.900]  Yeah.
[14:37.080 --> 14:39.860]  It's one of the weapons caches that we have.
[14:39.960 --> 14:40.120]  Yeah.
[14:40.200 --> 14:43.360]  We had... Well, let's... Where did we... We started with... Was it Indian food?
[14:43.480 --> 14:44.560]  And lots of beer, I think.
[14:44.760 --> 14:47.120]  And we worked late into the night and the next day.
[14:47.240 --> 14:49.520]  And then I think we finally started reading articles.
[14:49.740 --> 14:53.360]  Well, you see, you remember it a lot more optimistically than I do.
[14:53.480 --> 15:00.560]  I remember us getting together and we have... A picture, if you will, 25 years of magazine articles.
[15:00.760 --> 15:01.360]  25 years.
[15:01.540 --> 15:04.880]  We were monthly for the first four years and then quarterly ever since.
[15:05.240 --> 15:07.500]  And, you know, a lot of pages for every issue.
[15:07.540 --> 15:08.800]  So how many issues is that?
[15:08.900 --> 15:09.820]  You know, a lot.
[15:09.940 --> 15:10.180]  A lot.
[15:10.180 --> 15:12.060]  I'm going to keep asking you for numbers until I get some.
[15:12.280 --> 15:12.540]  Too many.
[15:14.060 --> 15:17.480]  And so we're sitting around just saying, okay, you know what?
[15:17.560 --> 15:18.420]  How do we do this?
[15:18.500 --> 15:20.000]  How do we turn this into a book?
[15:20.480 --> 15:21.180]  What do you do?
[15:21.260 --> 15:23.020]  Do you put it by theme?
[15:23.200 --> 15:24.880]  Do you do computers in one area?
[15:25.000 --> 15:26.120]  Do you do phones in another?
[15:26.680 --> 15:27.680]  It's just too much.
[15:27.800 --> 15:28.800]  How do you separate all this?
[15:28.840 --> 15:31.160]  What about articles that apply to both?
[15:31.260 --> 15:34.360]  What about articles that are phone-related and computer-related?
[15:34.500 --> 15:35.780]  Where do the editorials go?
[15:35.900 --> 15:37.360]  Where do all the things about Bernie S.
[15:37.480 --> 15:37.980]  and Kevin Mitnick?
[15:38.040 --> 15:39.200]  How does that all tie in?
[15:39.800 --> 15:43.320]  And, you know, that whole first day, I don't think we had any answers.
[15:43.380 --> 15:44.780]  We couldn't figure it out.
[15:44.840 --> 15:46.340]  We couldn't figure out how to tie it all together.
[15:46.600 --> 15:48.500]  Well, I think we did what anyone would do in that situation.
[15:48.860 --> 15:50.220]  That's where we opened up the beers, right?
[15:50.220 --> 15:54.100]  Well, that and watched The Taking of Pelham 1, 2, 3.
[15:54.380 --> 15:57.340]  No, you watched it with me, and I believe, Jun, you fell asleep.
[15:57.380 --> 15:58.540]  Yeah, I got about halfway through.
[15:58.580 --> 16:00.340]  Yeah, now that film did inspire us.
[16:00.440 --> 16:01.120]  The first half was good.
[16:01.240 --> 16:11.720]  Well, the film inspired us quite a bit, actually, because, as not Kevin is indicating here, we decided to divide the book into three sections, one, two, and three.
[16:12.300 --> 16:14.780]  And we didn't have to work in Pelham.
[16:15.220 --> 16:20.840]  But the three sections, basically, it kind of, it kind of sort of wrote itself for us.
[16:20.980 --> 16:24.360]  We decided that each decade would tell a different story.
[16:24.820 --> 16:31.120]  And we've been around for three decades, in the 1980s, the 1990s, and whatever you call this decade, which I still can't figure out.
[16:31.180 --> 16:31.520]  The odds.
[16:32.080 --> 16:33.400]  Yeah, you see, that doesn't work for me.
[16:33.540 --> 16:34.060]  I don't like that either.
[16:34.160 --> 16:41.880]  So now, every single decade has, within it, its own little sections, having to do with whatever was big at that particular time.
[16:42.580 --> 16:44.500]  And that's how we started dividing things up.
[16:44.580 --> 16:52.020]  And then it became so much easier at that point, once we were able to say, okay, we do the 80s this month, we do the 90s next month, we do the 00s, whatever, the month after that.
[16:52.340 --> 16:55.720]  What about like the winter 99-2000 issue?
[16:55.860 --> 16:57.560]  Where do articles from that one go?
[16:57.900 --> 17:02.660]  See, this is why you weren't in that particular group, because we would have kept asking questions like that, and we never would have gotten anywhere.
[17:02.980 --> 17:04.000]  We figured it out, Mike.
[17:04.080 --> 17:06.280]  We figured it out, and you'll have to read the book to find out.
[17:06.280 --> 17:12.620]  Now, to get to your question, as far as how big this thing is, well, originally, Carol, we were saying, what, 300?
[17:12.620 --> 17:16.780]  It was a silly thought, 300 pages of silly.
[17:16.940 --> 17:24.880]  And I knew at the time, we submitted the first chapter, I believe at the end of January, and that was the 1980s, and I was supposed to be a third.
[17:24.880 --> 17:30.160]  And I knew that there was going to be a problem, because there was just so much material.
[17:30.400 --> 17:44.960]  And I didn't know exactly, because we were taking scans off of the early issues, which were loose-leaf pieces of paper, actually not loose-leaf, but paper with holes in them, and all sorts of things like that, basically scanning off of the originals.
[17:45.100 --> 17:47.320]  We didn't know what that would translate to as far as a book.
[17:47.900 --> 17:52.980]  But I knew that it was going to be more than a third of 360.
[17:54.640 --> 18:00.940]  So you guys really came up with what I think is a good solution to that, which was...
[18:00.940 --> 18:03.560]  Well, we expanded the trim size a bit.
[18:03.640 --> 18:10.720]  And it's always good to have a book that's slightly bigger on the shelf, so that it doesn't get lost, you know, on the physical bookshelf.
[18:14.300 --> 18:17.480]  And we're probably up to about 900 pages now.
[18:17.780 --> 18:20.660]  You see, now, originally, you doubled the page.
[18:20.700 --> 18:21.740]  It was like 600-something.
[18:21.820 --> 18:24.240]  And then, when I was going through the final edit, I realized, you know what?
[18:24.240 --> 18:27.880]  This is going well beyond 600, and I was well beyond 800.
[18:28.180 --> 18:30.060]  I was like, wow, this is an infinite book, it seems.
[18:30.160 --> 18:30.920]  It just keeps growing.
[18:31.080 --> 18:31.200]  Right.
[18:31.680 --> 18:39.220]  And, you know, that really, I think, it would have been tragic for us to cut that much and to make it that small.
[18:39.220 --> 18:42.380]  I think if we did that, we could have a book for each decade.
[18:42.600 --> 18:44.660]  That's how we would have had to have done it.
[18:44.940 --> 18:51.040]  As it is, it was heartbreaking having to cut material and pick out what to include and what not to include.
[18:51.720 --> 19:06.860]  But actually, one of the great things is, because you're covering those three sections, you are able to, and you do, reference back so that it becomes a very connected thing.
[19:07.060 --> 19:17.620]  I mean, by the time we get to the last section, the now times, I mean, you make mention of the waybacks, you know, and the waybacks...
[19:17.620 --> 19:18.260]  The waybacks?
[19:18.320 --> 19:18.880]  The waybacks.
[19:18.920 --> 19:19.820]  I don't use that word, do I?
[19:19.820 --> 19:20.560]  No, it's a wayback.
[19:20.640 --> 19:21.900]  It's like back to the future.
[19:22.080 --> 19:22.660]  It's a wayback.
[19:22.660 --> 19:22.900]  Okay.
[19:23.280 --> 19:39.280]  You know, of the first phone-freaking and, you know, what it took, you know, just to do anything incredibly simple, you know, having to do with discovery of things electronic.
[19:39.760 --> 19:43.180]  Well, the 1980s, of course, that was the early time for us.
[19:43.340 --> 19:45.320]  In fact, it was before early time for you, not Kevin.
[19:45.440 --> 19:46.160]  You weren't even born then.
[19:46.160 --> 19:46.940]  That's not true.
[19:47.680 --> 19:48.620]  Well, you weren't.
[19:48.860 --> 19:49.660]  Well, not...
[19:49.660 --> 19:50.280]  You can't prove it.
[19:51.040 --> 19:54.440]  When these chapters came out, you were not in existence on this planet.
[19:54.640 --> 19:55.560]  There's no record of that.
[19:55.680 --> 19:56.200]  All right.
[19:56.200 --> 19:57.520]  Well, anyway, the point is...
[19:57.520 --> 19:58.460]  Can I see your driver's license?
[19:58.460 --> 19:58.560]  Yeah.
[19:58.600 --> 20:05.780]  The point is, in 1984, we began, it was a completely different world as far as technology goes, as far as telephones go, computers, internet.
[20:05.920 --> 20:06.680]  The internet didn't exist.
[20:07.040 --> 20:15.020]  And so to go back and to read all of this and to just sort of see where we were, I mean, I got to thank you guys for making us do this.
[20:15.200 --> 20:26.180]  Because had we not put together this book, I don't think we would have gotten a sense as to just what it's all meant over these many years, how things have changed, how things have stayed the same.
[20:26.380 --> 20:27.500]  I was reading these stories.
[20:27.580 --> 20:28.380]  I was transfixed.
[20:28.520 --> 20:44.540]  I just could not stop reading various just tutorials about how computer systems that have long since ceased to exist, how they worked, what kinds of new toys might be on the horizon that have come into existence and gone into extinction.
[20:44.900 --> 20:49.240]  We've got sections for the 1980s about the last days of Ma Bell.
[20:49.700 --> 20:53.580]  If you recall, the phone company broke up right at that period of time.
[20:53.580 --> 20:59.860]  So it was a very historical moment because you had, you were going from one phone company to a whole lot of phone companies.
[21:00.080 --> 21:04.180]  People were dialing in completely different ways that they were never used to before.
[21:04.660 --> 21:18.380]  And all of that, all of that was captured in our pages, but from the perspective of phone freaks, from people who are trying to figure out ways to manipulate the system, to route around the billing computers, to explain how it all worked to the average people.
[21:18.880 --> 21:22.580]  And at the same time, we were constantly fighting the mass media.
[21:22.740 --> 21:26.500]  We were constantly fighting the authorities who wanted to shut us up.
[21:26.940 --> 21:30.500]  And it's kind of, that's one of the similarities because we still get that today.
[21:30.860 --> 21:36.460]  But to see it back then, it's just, it really was eye-opening and educational.
[21:36.660 --> 21:39.860]  I know people are going to get that out of the book when they do pick it up.
[21:40.120 --> 21:49.100]  People who have not lived in the 1980s, people who have never even thought of that particular period of time technology-wise, they're going to see this and they're going to say, wow, that's how it happened.
[21:49.520 --> 21:51.620]  And for me, that's a real eye-opener.
[21:51.620 --> 21:57.860]  But I think, Emmanuel, the reason it will be is because you've positioned it all.
[21:58.060 --> 22:17.260]  The introductions that you have written and the way you have sewn things together with what we in publishing called sidebars, which in the book will be in screen boxes to get your attention, so you read them.
[22:18.060 --> 22:36.140]  I personally, you know, as a long-time publisher, and I've been in publishing for 25 years, I mean, it would not be the read that we feel is a great read without doing that.
[22:36.140 --> 22:46.100]  If you had just put the articles together without that, it would have been interesting, but not the great read that we think it is.
[22:46.320 --> 22:46.320]  Yeah.
[22:46.440 --> 23:04.960]  Well, what I tried to do was tie it all together, not just simply spit out all the articles that we thought were good, and so many of them were good, but also to put it into perspective so that people could see why this matters and how it relates to today and sort of capture the spirit as to what it was all about.
[23:05.060 --> 23:08.440]  And I think that's part of the magic of the entire hacker world that we're a part of.
[23:09.820 --> 23:14.120]  So that's pretty much where we're coming from, as far as that goes.
[23:14.780 --> 23:17.540]  And again, the 1980s, that was just one period.
[23:17.800 --> 23:21.360]  There are two other periods that we have.
[23:21.500 --> 23:26.080]  I have a question, which I think also needs to be answered with a number, which is, how do I get a copy of this book?
[23:26.080 --> 23:26.380]  Okay.
[23:26.560 --> 23:29.940]  Well, I guess now's as good a time as any to talk specifics.
[23:30.440 --> 23:37.260]  During this hour, and only during this hour, we are offering this book as a special premium, an autographed copy, in fact.
[23:37.900 --> 23:40.980]  I was told that that might somehow make it more appealing.
[23:41.500 --> 23:42.100]  We'll see.
[23:42.360 --> 23:43.880]  Are you just you or the whole thing?
[23:43.880 --> 23:46.060]  Well, if you guys want to sign it too, we can all sign it.
[23:46.260 --> 23:48.760]  I'm not sure exactly how the logistics will work, but definitely me.
[23:49.180 --> 23:50.280]  That might lower the...
[23:50.280 --> 23:51.680]  Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.
[23:51.700 --> 23:56.480]  I tried to tell them that, but they seem to think that it will increase the draw.
[23:56.640 --> 23:56.980]  I don't know.
[23:57.320 --> 24:02.320]  For a pledge of $125, you'll get a, was it 900 pages?
[24:02.640 --> 24:03.400]  900 pages.
[24:03.740 --> 24:08.280]  Of the best of 2,600, coming out, Wiley Publishing...
[24:08.280 --> 24:08.880]  Hardcover.
[24:09.180 --> 24:09.700]  Hardcover.
[24:10.120 --> 24:12.540]  Seven and three-eighths by nine and a quarter inches.
[24:12.820 --> 24:14.400]  Are they going to really fit this in bookstores?
[24:14.600 --> 24:15.500]  It seems so big.
[24:15.500 --> 24:15.980]  Absolutely.
[24:16.200 --> 24:17.860]  It will never get lost on the shelf.
[24:18.040 --> 24:19.520]  This will be like a Bible, I hope.
[24:19.720 --> 24:23.360]  In fact, Wiley publishes Bibles, besides the regular...
[24:23.360 --> 24:24.860]  Can we leave these in hotel rooms?
[24:24.920 --> 24:25.620]  That would be really cool.
[24:25.820 --> 24:28.340]  If we can get the Gideons to place these, I'd be really happy with that.
[24:28.980 --> 24:30.400]  212-209-2950.
[24:30.580 --> 24:31.180]  I pledge $125.
[24:31.240 --> 24:36.420]  You get the Off the Hook t-shirt and an exclusive copy, an autographed copy of the best of 2,600.
[24:37.060 --> 24:38.800]  A brand new book has not yet come out.
[24:38.860 --> 24:39.740]  It's coming out in July.
[24:40.280 --> 24:41.540]  And wow.
[24:41.980 --> 24:45.300]  I guess it's the closest thing to getting a full set of back issues.
[24:45.680 --> 24:48.960]  But we've gone through them all, and we've put it all into perspective.
[24:49.840 --> 24:52.240]  And it's just an incredible thing.
[24:53.300 --> 24:54.300]  I'm blown away by it.
[24:54.380 --> 25:03.820]  When I look at what has been built over the past few months, and we really have been working hard on this, it's incredible because we work hard on the radio show, we work hard on the conference, we work hard on the magazine.
[25:04.100 --> 25:09.540]  But on top of all that, now we're working hard on this, or we have been working hard on this for the last few months.
[25:11.700 --> 25:14.400]  And all credit to everybody that has been a part of the project.
[25:15.300 --> 25:16.260]  I'm proud of it.
[25:16.380 --> 25:19.580]  It's come out, I think the most significant thing we've done since Freedom Downtime.
[25:20.880 --> 25:22.800]  And I hope it's popular.
[25:22.920 --> 25:24.100]  It's going to be in bookstores everywhere.
[25:25.200 --> 25:30.600]  And this is, I think, one of the ultimate hacking pieces that will be out there.
[25:30.820 --> 25:33.800]  Now, I know, Carol, you also published the Kevin Mitnick series.
[25:34.380 --> 25:37.260]  And maybe that's how, in fact, you got in touch with us in the first place.
[25:37.500 --> 25:44.620]  No, I think it's kind of my job to know who's who and what's what in the security arena.
[25:45.640 --> 25:53.140]  So I did two books with Kevin, Art of Deception and Art of Intrusion.
[25:54.260 --> 25:59.540]  Those were both converted to paperback after they were hardcover.
[25:59.960 --> 26:05.200]  But even people like Bruce Schneier applied cryptography, Secrets and Lies.
[26:05.300 --> 26:07.100]  I did Secrets and Lies with Bruce.
[26:08.060 --> 26:15.340]  And, you know, higher level, almost engineering level, things like Ross Anderson Security Engineering.
[26:15.340 --> 26:21.020]  There's a whole kind of small group of, we call them experts.
[26:21.340 --> 26:24.900]  And even though you might not all personally know one another.
[26:25.200 --> 26:29.620]  David Litchfield is another guy from NGSS Software.
[26:31.180 --> 26:33.380]  Where each one knows the other.
[26:34.220 --> 26:38.960]  So when I get a group of trusted advisors, they point me in the right direction.
[26:39.220 --> 26:40.080]  That's great.
[26:40.240 --> 26:41.660]  Yeah, most of us do know each other.
[26:41.720 --> 26:45.200]  And it's good to be in such good company.
[26:45.380 --> 26:46.080]  It really is.
[26:46.260 --> 26:49.300]  We have four calls on the line, 212-209-2950.
[26:49.300 --> 26:50.700]  We have a bunch of volunteers down there.
[26:50.740 --> 26:51.600]  Not Kevin, you were down there.
[26:51.680 --> 26:52.880]  How many volunteers do we have?
[26:53.360 --> 26:53.720]  Enough.
[26:53.860 --> 26:55.840]  Enough to take some more phone calls, right?
[26:56.760 --> 26:57.120]  Plenty.
[26:57.120 --> 26:59.920]  I should remind people, this is the only time we're going to be offering this.
[27:00.080 --> 27:02.860]  And it's an autographed copy of the brand new 2600 book.
[27:03.080 --> 27:04.760]  Yes, it's finally happened.
[27:04.880 --> 27:06.700]  We're finally putting out a hardcover book.
[27:07.140 --> 27:10.140]  Wiley Publishing is debuting this in July.
[27:10.360 --> 27:17.080]  And this is your chance to really, if you've ever been interested in the hacker world, this is how to see it.
[27:17.180 --> 27:19.840]  This is the best way to get introduced to it.
[27:20.120 --> 27:21.600]  212-209-2950.
[27:21.740 --> 27:27.360]  Not only are you getting the book, not only are you getting the off-the-hook t-shirt, but you're supporting the radio station.
[27:27.480 --> 27:28.580]  That's really what it's all about.
[27:28.720 --> 27:31.780]  Because without this radio station, I dare say there wouldn't be a book.
[27:32.180 --> 27:36.720]  Because the word would not have gotten out as to so many things that have happened over the years.
[27:36.720 --> 27:39.860]  Whether it be the Kevin Mitnick story, the Bernie S.
[27:39.980 --> 27:41.340]  story, fiber optics tales.
[27:42.020 --> 27:45.580]  And just all the different things we've talked about involving technology.
[27:45.580 --> 27:52.220]  And by doing that, we've gotten more attention from more people, built up the community even more.
[27:52.760 --> 27:55.080]  And it just all sort of takes care of itself.
[27:55.260 --> 27:56.500]  And you can be a part of that.
[27:56.560 --> 27:59.340]  You can help keep this place alive, keep this place strong.
[28:00.240 --> 28:01.940]  212-209-2950.
[28:01.940 --> 28:04.040]  Off the Hook has been coming your way since 1988.
[28:04.660 --> 28:06.380]  Almost as long as the magazine itself.
[28:07.120 --> 28:11.580]  And if there was possible to put out a book somehow of this, we could do it.
[28:11.700 --> 28:13.220]  And have all kinds of interesting stories as well.
[28:13.680 --> 28:21.960]  But the book of 2600, the best of 2600, that is, I think, the best way to learn all about this.
[28:22.140 --> 28:23.960]  You can download all of Off the Hook online.
[28:24.100 --> 28:24.420]  That's right.
[28:24.500 --> 28:24.800]  You can.
[28:24.920 --> 28:25.280]  You can.
[28:25.360 --> 28:26.200]  Sort of a best of.
[28:26.320 --> 28:27.220]  You can make your own best of.
[28:27.340 --> 28:27.920]  Most definitely.
[28:28.320 --> 28:39.980]  Do you guys have any ideas or remembrances of particular articles or things that we discussed while we were going through all the massive amounts of writings for 2600?
[28:39.980 --> 28:43.040]  How we selected certain things and what was good and what worked.
[28:43.780 --> 28:47.120]  Well, I think I can take the blame for having the 80s take so long.
[28:47.180 --> 28:50.160]  I fought so hard to keep all the phone articles in.
[28:51.140 --> 28:51.580]  Yeah.
[28:51.820 --> 28:51.980]  Yeah.
[28:52.180 --> 28:54.120]  And there are a lot of phone articles in there.
[28:54.240 --> 28:58.280]  Things about the Audubon, the old Defense Department phone network.
[28:58.760 --> 28:59.760]  All kinds of things.
[29:00.640 --> 29:04.440]  It just seems so big and archaic now when you look back on it.
[29:04.440 --> 29:06.840]  But that was... it wasn't that long ago.
[29:07.120 --> 29:09.500]  I mean, you know, it wasn't like the 1940s or something like that.
[29:09.580 --> 29:11.980]  This was the 1980s and yet things were so different.
[29:12.460 --> 29:19.540]  Computer systems just were massive and the power that you now have on your laptop is something that would take up an entire room.
[29:19.640 --> 29:21.400]  That was only in the 1980s.
[29:22.700 --> 29:24.840]  And the book goes on into the 1990s.
[29:24.840 --> 29:30.620]  The 1990s I thought was particularly interesting because that seemed to be the decade where everybody discovered hackers.
[29:30.620 --> 29:33.440]  That's when all the books started to come out.
[29:33.520 --> 29:35.020]  That's when all the movies started to come out.
[29:35.160 --> 29:35.880]  It was real...
[29:35.880 --> 29:37.640]  It was a pop culture explosion.
[29:37.960 --> 29:38.960]  We had hackers.
[29:39.220 --> 29:40.060]  We had sneakers.
[29:40.380 --> 29:41.240]  We had the net.
[29:41.520 --> 29:47.260]  We had all kinds of books about the capturing of hackers.
[29:47.440 --> 29:48.860]  We had Masters of Deception.
[29:49.500 --> 29:51.680]  We had the Kevin Mitnick books.
[29:52.640 --> 29:53.200]  Just...
[29:53.200 --> 29:54.700]  It all happened at once.
[29:55.100 --> 29:58.160]  And it's also the time where we started having our conventions.
[29:58.560 --> 30:00.060]  Our first convention was in 1994.
[30:00.620 --> 30:04.760]  And that started a whole new scene in the hacker world.
[30:04.760 --> 30:07.820]  The scene of big conventions in the United States.
[30:08.080 --> 30:09.320]  It never happened before.
[30:09.640 --> 30:13.640]  The Hope Convention in 1994 was the first one to have over a thousand people in the United States.
[30:13.780 --> 30:16.600]  And this was all because of what was going on in Europe.
[30:16.920 --> 30:18.320]  So it's all documented.
[30:18.320 --> 30:19.140]  It's all in there.
[30:19.240 --> 30:28.500]  If you ever wanted a history as to how this crazy world of ours came to be, this book is your best way of finding out and learning so much.
[30:29.320 --> 30:32.540]  It's so amazing that you can put together something like this.
[30:32.740 --> 30:37.260]  And even though you're putting it together, you're still learning about what you've been involved in for so long.
[30:37.540 --> 30:38.680]  That's the amazing thing to me.
[30:38.760 --> 30:40.840]  I learn so much by just putting it all together.
[30:40.840 --> 30:41.960]  You forget about things.
[30:42.040 --> 30:43.620]  Yes, I've got all the back issues.
[30:43.700 --> 30:45.240]  I'm able to look at them any time.
[30:45.240 --> 30:47.400]  But I don't.
[30:47.460 --> 30:52.080]  I don't take down July 1985 and thumb through it on a regular basis.
[30:52.800 --> 31:00.660]  By going through and making the book and having the book in my hand, it becomes a lot easier to get the perspective.
[31:01.020 --> 31:03.940]  Now, Jens, do you remember anything in particular that stood out for you?
[31:04.720 --> 31:06.780]  I can't think of any specific articles.
[31:06.980 --> 31:09.080]  They all kind of blended together after a while.
[31:09.740 --> 31:10.180]  But...
[31:10.180 --> 31:11.520]  You'll have to get the book.
[31:11.700 --> 31:13.320]  And look at it and remember.
[31:13.320 --> 31:13.820]  That's right.
[31:14.000 --> 31:14.840]  I definitely will.
[31:14.900 --> 31:16.120]  It's a lot bigger than I remember.
[31:16.300 --> 31:18.940]  Last night, I was still on the 600-page version.
[31:19.140 --> 31:19.600]  Yeah, it kept growing.
[31:19.600 --> 31:22.660]  I didn't even know it was over 600 pages after I was going through the final edit.
[31:22.840 --> 31:25.100]  And it was incredible.
[31:25.160 --> 31:26.920]  But I am happy with the way it turned out.
[31:27.200 --> 31:33.140]  You guys at Wiley gave us a lot of leeway as far as letting us express ourselves in our own style.
[31:33.820 --> 31:38.120]  And I think we probably broke a lot of rules, right, as far as how books are generally put together.
[31:38.260 --> 31:39.060]  I think so.
[31:39.600 --> 31:40.100]  Good, good.
[31:40.100 --> 31:41.320]  Because that was our goal.
[31:41.320 --> 31:45.660]  But, you know, we look at this as really kind of a seminal work.
[31:45.800 --> 31:49.000]  You know, you talked about the breakup of Maibel as kind of a seminal event.
[31:49.000 --> 31:51.500]  So, you know, we think of it as a seminal work.
[31:51.600 --> 32:09.920]  I think one of the things that I know one of the editors, and just to quickly say there, was one main person who really worked on this at Wiley who actually did indeed read every word, edit, make suggestions, so on and so forth.
[32:09.920 --> 32:14.880]  And even though I'm called an editor, I'm in what they call executive acquisitions.
[32:14.880 --> 32:17.800]  That means that I try to decide what we publish.
[32:17.800 --> 32:19.160]  I go after the authors.
[32:19.160 --> 32:20.780]  I negotiate the contracts.
[32:20.780 --> 32:26.920]  And I take care of the project for its whole life, for as long as it's in print.
[32:26.920 --> 32:34.660]  And I think one of the things, though, that I thought was a great article was how 2600 was rated by the FBI.
[32:34.960 --> 32:36.880]  And, you know, hackers in jail.
[32:37.120 --> 32:40.860]  That is just pretty amazing.
[32:41.060 --> 32:44.040]  We weren't actually rated ourselves, but people very close to us were.
[32:44.240 --> 32:44.280]  Yes.
[32:44.280 --> 32:45.720]  On a continuing basis.
[32:46.020 --> 32:46.220]  That's right.
[32:46.400 --> 32:46.820]  That's right.
[32:47.260 --> 32:56.580]  The series of articles on Operation Sun Devil and Steve Jackson's games, that was, I mean, there's no proof that I wasn't alive back then, but that was the first time I've read those articles.
[32:56.740 --> 32:57.260]  And it was...
[32:57.260 --> 32:58.180]  That was 1990.
[32:58.600 --> 33:01.480]  And so that, Mike, is in the 1990s section.
[33:01.580 --> 33:02.100]  Okay, good.
[33:02.100 --> 33:03.380]  That answered the question you were about to ask me.
[33:03.920 --> 33:05.420]  And that was simply incredible.
[33:05.500 --> 33:07.040]  That led to the founding of the EFF.
[33:07.040 --> 33:09.780]  And, of course, that led to all sorts of other things.
[33:09.940 --> 33:11.720]  We had the entire Craig Neidorf story.
[33:11.840 --> 33:18.040]  We had the Secret Service orchestrating a raid on the 2600 meeting in Washington, D.C.
[33:18.340 --> 33:20.540]  And all this was documented also on Off the Hook.
[33:20.920 --> 33:25.300]  But to see how it was printed in the magazine, that's how the word really got out.
[33:25.560 --> 33:28.240]  Nothing replaces the printed word, as far as I'm concerned.
[33:28.780 --> 33:34.240]  When you write something down and you send it out, either in magazine form or book form, it means something.
[33:34.380 --> 33:34.880]  It matters.
[33:34.880 --> 33:41.340]  And so many people read the magazine on a continual basis and started writing for the magazine.
[33:41.340 --> 33:52.320]  And I think that affected a lot of us, as far as just valuing the printed word and just becoming a part of the culture in that particular way.
[33:52.360 --> 33:53.340]  I think that's a good thing.
[33:53.400 --> 33:58.960]  I've heard from so many people how just getting published in 2600 was a turning point for them.
[33:59.100 --> 34:02.380]  It really made things seem to matter.
[34:02.380 --> 34:08.380]  And that's so cool to hear that, that we publish somebody's article and it really makes them want to write some more.
[34:08.660 --> 34:10.340]  I mean, that's an amazing thing.
[34:11.860 --> 34:13.380]  What sweatshirt sizes do we have available?
[34:13.480 --> 34:14.820]  Just any size, really.
[34:15.040 --> 34:15.180]  Yeah.
[34:15.340 --> 34:17.180]  Any size that you can think of.
[34:17.280 --> 34:19.900]  And if we don't make those sizes, we'll make them for the listeners.
[34:19.900 --> 34:24.380]  But if it's, you know, 7XL, okay, we'll have a challenge, but we'll try.
[34:24.620 --> 34:25.480]  We'll do our best.
[34:25.820 --> 34:28.460]  But we have the most sizes in the sweatshirt.
[34:28.600 --> 34:29.520]  That's the question we were asked.
[34:29.640 --> 34:30.880]  So, yeah, sweatshirts.
[34:31.000 --> 34:34.440]  If you want the pledge for a sweatshirt, 212-209-2950, pledge of 50.
[34:35.440 --> 34:38.840]  And off-the-hook t-shirt for every pledge of 25 and above.
[34:38.840 --> 34:49.020]  But if you want to take advantage of the limited offer for the best of 2,600, the massive book that will be coming out this summer, call now, 212-209-2950.
[34:49.240 --> 34:52.140]  An autographed copy will be sent your way.
[34:52.300 --> 34:55.140]  And the postman will not be happy because this is a heavy book, right?
[34:55.140 --> 34:58.240]  I was going to say, the shipping alone is going to be worth almost $125.
[34:59.040 --> 34:59.780]  I know.
[35:00.000 --> 35:00.400]  I know.
[35:00.500 --> 35:01.620]  Carol, maybe you can tell us.
[35:01.680 --> 35:02.520]  I mean, this is a big book.
[35:02.700 --> 35:03.520]  It is a big book.
[35:03.640 --> 35:07.080]  How many pages did Apply Cryptography have by Schneier?
[35:07.680 --> 35:08.480]  Under 800.
[35:08.840 --> 35:09.360]  We beat him.
[35:09.620 --> 35:09.920]  Uh-huh.
[35:10.260 --> 35:10.820]  Uh-huh.
[35:10.980 --> 35:12.000]  Okay, Bruce, there you go.
[35:12.340 --> 35:12.800]  That's it.
[35:12.940 --> 35:14.240]  It's all about the page count.
[35:14.420 --> 35:14.940]  That's right.
[35:15.060 --> 35:16.220]  It is all about the page count.
[35:16.220 --> 35:16.360]  Wow.
[35:16.560 --> 35:19.120]  So, okay, so we have this massive book.
[35:19.840 --> 35:24.360]  I mean, is that going to be a problem for bookstores to get as many copies?
[35:24.620 --> 35:26.600]  Well, it's going to have to clear out some space for this thing.
[35:26.780 --> 35:27.780]  Well, they do.
[35:28.060 --> 35:33.560]  I mean, we do promotions, and you'll see promotions on Amazon.
[35:34.000 --> 35:35.480]  Yes, I see them already, actually.
[35:35.700 --> 35:36.060]  Absolutely.
[35:36.060 --> 35:46.640]  Absolutely, and we really start promoting a book three or four months before it is actually published, at least.
[35:47.300 --> 35:47.900]  And so...
[35:47.900 --> 35:48.660]  So that's like right now.
[35:48.660 --> 35:50.460]  Oh, yeah, we start promoting it.
[35:50.760 --> 36:01.160]  I mean, really, once you sign the contract, once we had pretty much decided on the title and the subtitle, we kind of start things internally.
[36:01.160 --> 36:22.120]  And then once the feed gets out, and Amazon and BNN.com and everybody else, 24 by 7, they'll come and get the feeds, and we will change our extremely not-relational databases, having to go in and change every single one separately.
[36:22.140 --> 36:23.540]  Don't want to talk about that.
[36:24.320 --> 36:28.220]  And then they'll come and take those feeds.
[36:28.400 --> 36:30.600]  So we had like a little bit of a change.
[36:30.840 --> 36:31.040]  Right.
[36:31.240 --> 36:31.780]  What did we do?
[36:31.900 --> 36:35.100]  Was it possessive at first?
[36:35.100 --> 36:36.600]  Yeah, we changed...
[36:36.600 --> 36:39.420]  It's called The Best 2600, A Hacker Odyssey.
[36:39.620 --> 36:39.960]  That's right.
[36:40.120 --> 36:42.220]  And it was originally A Hacker's Odyssey.
[36:42.500 --> 36:42.620]  Yeah, for a minute.
[36:42.640 --> 36:43.340]  That was a mistake.
[36:43.560 --> 36:44.020]  That was a mistake.
[36:44.020 --> 36:45.300]  But we had to change all that everywhere.
[36:45.500 --> 36:49.100]  Yes, and we had to change that in the six, seven, or eight non-relational databases.
[36:49.100 --> 36:54.380]  Well, it's incredible to me how, even now, the promotion for the book is exceeding anything that we've ever done before.
[36:54.440 --> 36:56.520]  It's not even out yet, but it's being talked about everywhere.
[36:56.520 --> 36:58.460]  So that's an incredible thing right there.
[36:58.740 --> 37:05.140]  Well, I think having, you know, you're really a cult figure.
[37:05.300 --> 37:06.220]  You have a following.
[37:06.420 --> 37:07.040]  Yeah, it scares me.
[37:07.080 --> 37:07.560]  It really does.
[37:07.900 --> 37:07.980]  I know.
[37:08.160 --> 37:09.300]  You know?
[37:09.500 --> 37:16.720]  As soon as I get the non-profit status, I'm going to start the religion and figure out a doomsday cult to get going, and it'll be fun for all of us.
[37:16.900 --> 37:18.280]  Is there going to be an e-book version?
[37:18.280 --> 37:19.800]  Uh, yes.
[37:19.960 --> 37:20.520]  Oh, wow, really?
[37:20.760 --> 37:21.240]  Yes.
[37:21.380 --> 37:23.940]  And in fact, there is going to be an e-book version.
[37:24.380 --> 37:33.820]  And what will happen is we have a deal with Lightning Source, which is the best-known e-book vendor, if you will.
[37:33.940 --> 37:41.920]  And the minute we get an e-book order, we will actually create the e-book files.
[37:41.960 --> 37:46.160]  Now, we don't create them ahead of time because, hey, what happens if you don't get an order?
[37:46.720 --> 37:49.800]  But, um, now, there will...
[37:49.800 --> 37:51.560]  I don't know if you want to talk about this.
[37:52.120 --> 37:53.180]  Well, I don't know what...
[37:53.180 --> 37:55.280]  I don't know if I should mention anything about it.
[37:55.280 --> 37:55.500]  Go ahead.
[37:55.760 --> 37:56.100]  All right.
[37:57.300 --> 38:23.300]  Now, we will work hard, um, in our legal department who, um, two years ago, we had to hire a whole separate company to send out cease and desist notices to pirated copies of the intellectual property, often, you know, coming from hosts that could be identified in Russia,
[38:24.260 --> 38:25.980]  Kazakhstan, China.
[38:26.340 --> 38:28.200]  I can visit them, like, personally, too.
[38:28.200 --> 38:32.900]  Just to say, you know, just to politely ask, uh, you know, give us a break here.
[38:33.160 --> 38:44.900]  However, however, we do find that those folks who, let's say, would, you know, access a pirated copy.
[38:45.060 --> 38:45.240]  Right.
[38:45.740 --> 38:46.660]  Now, think about it.
[38:46.980 --> 38:47.940]  They're not going to buy it.
[38:48.020 --> 38:49.160]  900 pages.
[38:49.460 --> 38:49.600]  Mm-hmm.
[38:50.220 --> 38:53.900]  First of all, okay, are they going to print it out?
[38:53.900 --> 38:55.940]  They would never have bought a book.
[38:56.040 --> 38:56.140]  Right.
[38:56.320 --> 38:57.800]  That book, any book.
[38:57.960 --> 38:58.200]  Mm-hmm.
[38:58.440 --> 39:04.200]  And that turns out to be a tiny, minuscule number of people.
[39:04.260 --> 39:06.460]  And I think it actually helps get publicity for the book.
[39:06.820 --> 39:06.940]  Exactly.
[39:06.940 --> 39:08.600]  Because people, uh, see it.
[39:08.820 --> 39:12.540]  And, uh, for me, I always prefer to have the hard copy anyway of something I, I really like.
[39:12.700 --> 39:16.180]  And, and if you pledge tonight, you will get the hard copy, none of this e-book.
[39:16.480 --> 39:16.980]  That's correct.
[39:17.120 --> 39:17.440]  Exactly.
[39:17.600 --> 39:17.880]  Nice.
[39:18.100 --> 39:19.420]  212-209-2950.
[39:19.660 --> 39:20.740]  We just had eight calls on the line.
[39:20.800 --> 39:21.960]  Now we're down to five.
[39:21.960 --> 39:23.660]  So we have, uh, we have more people.
[39:23.900 --> 39:26.440]  Uh, approaching the 1,000 mark, which is good.
[39:26.560 --> 39:34.700]  But remember, folks, we've got to hit 2,000 for every single week that we've been on because that sends one heck of a message to everybody out there that off the hook is a force to be reckoned with.
[39:35.180 --> 39:38.580]  And, uh, never again shall we be preempted doing a fundraiser.
[39:38.720 --> 39:39.620]  Wouldn't that be nice to say?
[39:40.500 --> 39:41.960]  212-209-2950.
[39:42.140 --> 39:45.820]  Bernie, I had turned it down because you were echoing, but any, any comments, things you'd like to share?
[39:46.240 --> 39:46.860]  Uh, yes.
[39:46.860 --> 40:02.500]  I'm just really excited about this, uh, this project, this book coming out because it, uh, it, it sheds a, an amazing historical perspective on where we've been in our society from a technology and communication standpoint over the past, uh, almost quarter century,
[40:02.760 --> 40:03.900]  more than quarter century, actually.
[40:03.900 --> 40:03.920]  Absolutely.
[40:04.620 --> 40:06.900]  And, uh, well, 24 years, I guess it is.
[40:06.980 --> 40:07.240]  Isn't that right?
[40:07.920 --> 40:09.340]  Uh, since 1984, yeah.
[40:09.500 --> 40:11.180]  I guess we're in our 25th year now.
[40:11.960 --> 40:22.140]  And, um, it, it, unless you look at this, um, as, as a whole body of work, you don't really appreciate where we've been and where we're going.
[40:22.340 --> 40:31.300]  And, uh, I don't know who was it that said, uh, uh, those who, uh, and I'm paraphrasing here, those who, uh, don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
[40:31.420 --> 40:33.080]  I don't think anybody ever actually said that.
[40:33.900 --> 40:36.700]  I think we just keep quoting it, but no one ever actually said it.
[40:37.500 --> 40:38.400]  That's my theory.
[40:38.480 --> 40:39.400]  Bernie S just said it.
[40:39.420 --> 40:40.840]  Well, okay, then you get credit for it.
[40:41.100 --> 40:47.820]  Um, you, you really begin to, uh, gain some valuable perspective looking at how things have changed over the years.
[40:47.920 --> 40:53.160]  And you, you can gain some lessons by seeing what has changed with technology and how people communicate.
[40:53.520 --> 40:57.120]  And you'll, you'll begin, you almost become a visionary seeing where we've been.
[40:57.260 --> 40:59.900]  And you begin to, to glimpse where we're going.
[41:00.080 --> 41:06.160]  You'll see trends that you can't see by looking at individual issues of 2,600 or going to a single conference necessarily.
[41:06.420 --> 41:12.960]  But if you look at the whole body of work over the past quarter century, you'll see some really interesting trends in where, where things are headed.
[41:13.160 --> 41:16.780]  And sometimes we go things, go places we never imagined we'd go.
[41:16.920 --> 41:23.240]  And other places were fairly predictable, but it happened in, in, in, uh, at a larger scale than we ever imagined.
[41:23.460 --> 41:27.260]  So looking at all this stuff together is, uh, it's pretty mind blowing, frankly.
[41:27.460 --> 41:33.260]  And, um, there's no way you can get this perspective other than, uh, getting your hands on a copy of this book.
[41:33.300 --> 41:45.320]  And you can be one of the first people to get one by calling 212-209-2950, pledging $125, getting this great 900 page book, an exclusive off the hook t-shirt, which you can't buy anywhere.
[41:45.640 --> 41:55.660]  And, uh, enjoy the fact that you have a whole body of work in your hands over the past quarter century of hacking history and supporting this radio station and this show, keeping it on the air.
[41:55.840 --> 41:58.380]  So please call 212-209-2950.
[41:58.620 --> 42:04.920]  You, uh, didn't mention, and perhaps wisely so, that, uh, the book will come autographed by yours truly and perhaps some of the other people here at Off the Hook.
[42:05.440 --> 42:06.480]  Uh, so I'm not sure.
[42:06.580 --> 42:07.740]  Maybe, uh, that's a good thing.
[42:07.780 --> 42:08.560]  Maybe that's a bad thing.
[42:08.680 --> 42:12.520]  But again, 212-209-2950 is the phone number to call to take part in this.
[42:12.700 --> 42:16.060]  You can, uh, take those signatures and use them to commit identity fraud.
[42:16.060 --> 42:16.800]  Oh, thank you, Mike.
[42:16.920 --> 42:21.660]  Thank you very much for, for giving that, uh, idea, uh, some, uh, some play there.
[42:21.820 --> 42:27.420]  Uh, yeah, there's, um, I was just looking at some of the articles that, that we, uh, we, we ran in this thing.
[42:28.020 --> 42:37.220]  And, uh, boy, just cellular telephones, um, alone, just the way cellular telephones worked in the 1980s, so incredibly different than the way they work now.
[42:37.620 --> 42:39.900]  Uh, do you know, there was, there was a limitation.
[42:40.400 --> 42:45.480]  Uh, Bernie, you probably remember exactly how many cell phones calls could be made at the same time in a city?
[42:45.600 --> 42:48.740]  Was something like, what, a hundred or something ridiculously low like that?
[42:48.960 --> 42:50.080]  Well, it depended on the city.
[42:50.260 --> 42:56.740]  Actually, before cellular, uh, there was something, uh, uh, there was a, there was a pre-cellular technology work.
[42:56.880 --> 43:00.560]  There were only a few dozen calls could be made in a, in a city at a particular time.
[43:00.660 --> 43:11.740]  And the early days of cellular, depending on the city, first Chicago were the first city to have cellular phones, and a few other cities It was just a few hundred, really.
[43:11.900 --> 43:16.440]  There were only 666 channels, an evil number, to start out with.
[43:16.540 --> 43:21.960]  Half of them were for the existing wireline company, the local exchange carrier.
[43:22.180 --> 43:24.940]  And then there was always a competing cellular company each market.
[43:25.060 --> 43:29.360]  It was set up with two different companies in each market by the FCC, so there would be competition, which made sense.
[43:30.080 --> 43:40.720]  But there were so few cell sites that you really had to share these channels through a handful of cell sites until the market brought up enough money for the companies to build more cell sites.
[43:40.860 --> 43:44.660]  And it just sort of spread and mushroomed in ways that nobody conceived.
[43:45.340 --> 43:49.360]  You know, I can remember I was involved with the cellular industry in the mid-'80s, or in 1985 or so.
[43:49.820 --> 43:52.260]  Yeah, it was like 20 years ago, but more than that.
[43:52.420 --> 43:54.320]  And a cell phone cost $3,000.
[43:54.320 --> 44:02.900]  You had to mount it in the trunk of your car with a control cable and a control head on your dashboard that had the handset.
[44:03.100 --> 44:05.140]  And this was amazing technology.
[44:05.360 --> 44:08.280]  You could sit in your car and make phone calls.
[44:08.400 --> 44:09.500]  What a concept.
[44:10.540 --> 44:11.240]  You laugh.
[44:11.280 --> 44:12.240]  I'm still amazed by it.
[44:12.620 --> 44:15.520]  And I remember a common feature back then.
[44:15.640 --> 44:17.560]  It'll blow some blisters away, or I'm familiar with this.
[44:18.060 --> 44:21.060]  If you weren't in your... there were no portable cell phones back then.
[44:21.060 --> 44:23.600]  They were just too big and heavy to make it a portable thing.
[44:23.720 --> 44:27.000]  Later, they came out in briefcases and then, like, three-pound portable things.
[44:27.180 --> 44:33.600]  But before that, if you wanted to hear your cell phone ring and you weren't near your car, you could have something called a horn alert relay.
[44:33.600 --> 44:35.820]  It was like... we tied into the horn relay in your car.
[44:36.320 --> 44:42.920]  So if you're within hearing distance of your car and your cell phone rang, you would hear your car horn beep, and you knew you had a phone call.
[44:43.100 --> 44:46.200]  And you'd go to your... you'd run to your car and then answer the phone.
[44:46.200 --> 44:52.600]  This is the kind of stuff that we covered in 2600 and ways of making your cell phone work in ways that it might not have been intended to.
[44:52.800 --> 44:57.400]  I think... I recall writing an article back in 1987 or...
[44:57.400 --> 44:57.460]  I think... yeah.
[44:58.360 --> 45:03.720]  It was, I think, one of the first articles... I think it was the first article in 2600 about cell phone network hacking.
[45:03.880 --> 45:06.740]  Was it cellular phone fraud and where it's headed?
[45:06.860 --> 45:07.240]  Was that yours?
[45:08.120 --> 45:08.740]  Exactly, yes.
[45:08.820 --> 45:10.100]  I see that one here.
[45:10.100 --> 45:15.640]  You also wrote an article in 1987 entitled Fax, A New Hobby.
[45:16.800 --> 45:24.700]  Now, I guess back then, fax machines were just on the scene and people were actually using them to play games and things.
[45:24.920 --> 45:29.900]  Well, back then, fax machines cost thousands and thousands of dollars and they were analog machines.
[45:30.040 --> 45:44.880]  And it wasn't until the early 80s that a new protocol, the G3, Group 3 protocol, came out for digital faxing, which is what we use now, which we use like frequency shift keying, like modem tones, as opposed to an analog sine wave over the phone line.
[45:45.320 --> 45:47.660]  And I picked up...
[45:47.660 --> 45:53.780]  From a local newspaper, I picked up their older fax machine, an analog model, and I thought this was a really cool machine.
[45:53.860 --> 45:55.220]  It had a big drum that rotated.
[45:55.940 --> 46:04.840]  And this is the kind of thing you'd see in old movies where the photographers for newspapers would be out in the field and they needed to get the picture to the newspaper so it would be published the next day.
[46:04.840 --> 46:07.620]  And they would put it in this big machine and it would just crank through.
[46:07.800 --> 46:15.020]  Well, my article was about how to modify one of these things to receive a weather satellite photograph over shortwave radio frequencies.
[46:15.400 --> 46:19.180]  And, you know, it was just one of the weird things you could do with technology.
[46:19.200 --> 46:20.680]  And it was such a new concept.
[46:20.740 --> 46:22.400]  Most people didn't know what fax machines were.
[46:22.540 --> 46:23.560]  So we described it.
[46:24.040 --> 46:26.040]  It sounds like, well, everyone doesn't know what a fax.
[46:26.040 --> 46:27.480]  People now don't even use fax machines.
[46:27.560 --> 46:28.020]  They use email.
[46:28.340 --> 46:33.900]  But this is a really interesting thing, seeing where the technology was, where it's gone, and where it's going.
[46:34.680 --> 46:36.880]  It's really interesting to get this historical perspective.
[46:36.880 --> 46:44.400]  So I urge listeners to call and read some of these articles and take a trip back in time and maybe to the future by looking where we've been to see where we're going.
[46:44.500 --> 46:46.220]  Well, it's a good point because you really...
[46:46.220 --> 46:48.360]  To understand the future, you do need to understand the past.
[46:48.520 --> 46:54.160]  And you'll certainly get a sense to what the past was like reading articles like what Bernie wrote back in the 80s.
[46:54.840 --> 46:57.040]  There's one article here about...
[46:57.620 --> 47:00.160]  It's entitled WorldNet, Getting Closer Every Day.
[47:00.300 --> 47:14.860]  It's basically where a writer explains to us how it may be possible to actually send messages to people all around the world without much of a charge, using a particular hierarchy of address structure.
[47:15.040 --> 47:19.120]  And it's really very complicated with percentage signs and exclamation points and things like that.
[47:19.340 --> 47:21.780]  That was part of people's email addresses back then.
[47:22.780 --> 47:24.320]  the precursor to the internet.
[47:24.800 --> 47:28.320]  And you saw what people were developing, how it all came to be.
[47:28.960 --> 47:31.640]  And it's just... it's mind-blowing.
[47:31.880 --> 47:32.900]  It really is in so many ways.
[47:33.020 --> 47:35.640]  212-209-2950 is our telephone number.
[47:35.820 --> 47:36.580]  Please give a call.
[47:36.640 --> 47:37.060]  $125.
[47:37.200 --> 47:41.640]  You'll get a copy of this 900-page book, autographed, the best of 2600, coming out this summer.
[47:42.060 --> 47:44.500]  And you also get a 2600 off-the-hook t-shirt.
[47:44.900 --> 47:46.940]  There was... it wasn't just cellular phones.
[47:47.160 --> 47:55.660]  And I remember reading articles about the regular phone system and how people were excited that, you know, switches were being upgraded in their central office and they could finally get touch-tone service.
[47:55.760 --> 47:56.660]  Yeah, you know, we were...
[47:56.660 --> 47:58.560]  we used to be a crossbar back in...
[47:58.560 --> 48:00.000]  at the 2600 office.
[48:00.160 --> 48:01.300]  It was a mechanical switch.
[48:01.560 --> 48:02.420]  It wasn't electronic.
[48:02.440 --> 48:04.260]  So it just sounded very different.
[48:04.340 --> 48:06.040]  You could do different things with the phone system.
[48:07.040 --> 48:09.340]  And people today just have no conception of that.
[48:09.500 --> 48:10.000]  They don't...
[48:10.000 --> 48:11.260]  they don't know what the difference was.
[48:11.460 --> 48:12.340]  And it's such a...
[48:12.340 --> 48:14.000]  such an incredibly changing world.
[48:14.460 --> 48:19.660]  You'll get all three decades, from where we first came out in 1984 to the end of last year.
[48:19.900 --> 48:20.320]  So it's...
[48:20.320 --> 48:21.660]  it's pretty comprehensive.
[48:22.520 --> 48:24.460]  Now, Carol, I know that...
[48:24.460 --> 48:27.980]  I heard from several people at Wiley as they were going through the book.
[48:28.120 --> 48:29.340]  And you can tell me if this is...
[48:29.340 --> 48:30.440]  if this is nonsense or not.
[48:30.480 --> 48:31.520]  If this is what you tell everybody.
[48:31.700 --> 48:38.180]  But people were saying that to them, editing this book was more like a vacation than work.
[48:38.300 --> 48:38.560]  Yes.
[48:38.700 --> 48:39.800]  Is that really true or...
[48:39.800 --> 48:40.140]  Exactly.
[48:40.440 --> 48:40.880]  Exactly.
[48:41.160 --> 48:56.460]  But I also think it has to do with the articles themselves that were chosen are so well-written, so much of a look back.
[48:56.740 --> 49:03.060]  But with your commentary around it, it makes it such a great read.
[49:03.060 --> 49:12.600]  And I think one of the things that also happened is, you know, there's a lot of discussion about hacker and the profile of a hacker and debunking all of that.
[49:12.600 --> 49:26.120]  I think there's balanced discussion when it comes to companies, corporations, whether it be Ma Bell or later on, you know, MCI is a company that had a lot of explaining to do, so on and so forth.
[49:26.120 --> 49:27.100]  Remember that, yes.
[49:27.220 --> 49:27.520]  Yes.
[49:28.800 --> 49:40.660]  And the technology itself is fascinating because as you're saying, I think the thing that gripped us so was it wasn't that long ago.
[49:41.320 --> 49:50.100]  And it seems like it was a hundred years ago instead of, you know, 24, 25 years ago.
[49:50.280 --> 50:01.920]  And to many of the kids out there today who weren't around for these eras who might as well have been a hundred years ago, and what better way to gain the perspective as to how the culture was built in the first place.
[50:01.920 --> 50:06.300]  And keep in mind, when we started, when we started, the culture was already in full swing.
[50:06.540 --> 50:09.400]  In fact, people told us we started coming out in 1984.
[50:09.900 --> 50:11.920]  1985, people were telling us the magic's over.
[50:12.120 --> 50:13.440]  You know, the hacker world is dead.
[50:13.580 --> 50:15.180]  1985, one year after we started.
[50:15.340 --> 50:16.720]  In fact, people were telling us that before we started.
[50:17.280 --> 50:22.920]  So it's always been kind of a controversial thing in the community just where hacking is going.
[50:24.020 --> 50:25.720]  But it's obviously gone somewhere.
[50:25.860 --> 50:27.220]  It obviously is still going places.
[50:27.680 --> 50:31.440]  And I think this story is going to continue even beyond 2008.
[50:31.780 --> 50:33.500]  But boy, what a story we have.
[50:33.640 --> 50:51.880]  And for those people who are involved in any kind of creative work of their own, whether it be writing books or authoring screenplays or doing any kind of historical perspective, this kind of look at the history is essential because we've talked to so many people who have made movies over the years and they need that understanding of how things used to be.
[50:52.040 --> 51:06.260]  If you want to do a period piece of something back in the 80s or 90s, you have to understand how the phone system actually worked, how the computer system actually worked, whether people were using email, whether people were using sprint codes or credit card information,
[51:06.260 --> 51:09.140]  how it all worked because it changes month to month.
[51:09.140 --> 51:12.920]  It really has evolved in so many ways and devolved in other ways.
[51:13.140 --> 51:13.840]  And that's another thing.
[51:13.960 --> 51:24.080]  We're always constantly giving a very critical eye to the system, whether it be government regulations, whether it be corporate policies.
[51:25.200 --> 51:35.640]  That's why we never really had advertising in our magazine because how could we if we're going to be so uncompromising as far as tearing certain institutions apart when they do something stupid.
[51:35.780 --> 51:37.080]  And we did that so many times.
[51:37.740 --> 51:42.240]  So yeah, that's what you'll see as a theme, a recurring theme in The Best of 2600.
[51:42.500 --> 51:43.740]  And I'm proud of that theme.
[51:43.900 --> 51:59.200]  And I also think in the past sometimes people, whether it be Hafner and Markov, so on and so forth, people who were journalists who didn't have the actual either technology understanding or background kind of got it wrong.
[51:59.580 --> 52:24.800]  I mean, this really takes what is the real stuff that's that's very accurate and that's really hard to find because you do find people who probably shouldn't be writing on topics like this, hacking or anything in the technology area who just don't do it well.
[52:25.140 --> 52:27.920]  And it's misinformation and it's not done well.
[52:28.060 --> 52:31.320]  And so that's really the opposite of what we have here.
[52:31.660 --> 52:33.060]  You know, this is kind of the penultimate.
[52:33.360 --> 52:34.780]  Yeah, it is.
[52:34.820 --> 52:37.860]  And our authors, it's incredible.
[52:38.060 --> 52:43.940]  The people that we've met over the years, over the decades that have written articles for 2600, they are the true inspiration.
[52:44.120 --> 52:48.420]  They are the people that we wouldn't be able to do any of this were it not for them.
[52:48.660 --> 52:56.560]  And the most sincere thanks go out to those people who have helped to move the hacker community in a positive direction.
[52:56.820 --> 52:58.080]  Okay, look at that.
[52:58.180 --> 53:01.740]  We're at $1,925, $75 away from our goal of $2,000.
[53:01.860 --> 53:03.340]  So we have four calls on the line.
[53:03.380 --> 53:04.220]  So we're probably going to make it.
[53:04.320 --> 53:09.900]  But this is your last chance if you want to get a copy of the book, an autographed copy of the book, a pledge of $125.
[53:10.180 --> 53:11.280]  We'll get that for you.
[53:12.400 --> 53:14.580]  212-209-2950.
[53:15.100 --> 53:17.100]  Again, $125 pledge.
[53:17.760 --> 53:19.600]  You'll also get the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[53:19.820 --> 53:21.700]  212-209-2950.
[53:21.880 --> 53:23.740]  Very quickly, let's run through some people to thank.
[53:23.900 --> 53:28.320]  We have a lot of people to thank and people who other than me have cards.
[53:28.660 --> 53:31.620]  Just make sure they gave us some that we're not supposed to thank on the air.
[53:31.840 --> 53:33.440]  Why do they always give us the ones we're not supposed to thank?
[53:33.440 --> 53:38.980]  I don't know, but there's one that I had over there and there's probably some more over there that we have to look at the yes-no boxes.
[53:38.980 --> 53:41.220]  Who will negate their pledge if we read their name over the air.
[53:41.360 --> 53:41.460]  Yes.
[53:41.460 --> 53:42.220]  So we don't want to do that.
[53:42.220 --> 53:44.160]  So we do want to thank them but not by name.
[53:44.560 --> 53:49.180]  But one person who's not anonymous is Ben from Woonsocket who we want to thank.
[53:49.320 --> 53:49.960]  Where is Woonsocket?
[53:50.140 --> 53:50.900]  It's in Rhode Island.
[53:51.060 --> 53:51.200]  Okay.
[53:51.420 --> 53:53.520]  You say that like everybody's supposed to know that.
[53:53.680 --> 53:54.320]  Well, I know it.
[53:54.420 --> 53:54.640]  All right.
[53:54.660 --> 53:55.100]  I know it.
[53:55.140 --> 53:56.440]  Well, you're both from Massachusetts.
[53:58.120 --> 53:58.480]  Okay.
[53:58.820 --> 53:59.860]  Now we learned something today.
[54:00.680 --> 54:02.480]  Also want to thank Dave from the Bronx.
[54:03.280 --> 54:04.760]  Kevin from California.
[54:04.800 --> 54:05.860]  I don't know the town name.
[54:06.080 --> 54:06.700]  Milip Tuz.
[54:07.040 --> 54:07.340]  Huh.
[54:07.800 --> 54:08.760]  Maybe that's Kevin Mitnick.
[54:08.760 --> 54:09.100]  Maybe.
[54:09.260 --> 54:09.900]  He's from California.
[54:10.440 --> 54:10.840]  He is.
[54:10.920 --> 54:11.820]  Jacob from Canton.
[54:12.560 --> 54:13.100]  Canton where?
[54:13.220 --> 54:13.600]  There's lots of Canton.
[54:13.840 --> 54:14.160]  Massachusetts.
[54:14.160 --> 54:14.980]  There's one in Ohio.
[54:15.040 --> 54:15.700]  There's one in Ohio.
[54:15.960 --> 54:17.200]  There's one in New Jersey as well.
[54:17.340 --> 54:17.880]  And in China.
[54:18.760 --> 54:19.200]  Thank you.
[54:19.320 --> 54:19.980]  There's a Canton everywhere.
[54:20.120 --> 54:22.020]  I grew up not far from Canton, Massachusetts.
[54:22.880 --> 54:25.860]  We want to thank Davin from Amherst, New Hampshire.
[54:26.000 --> 54:26.560]  What's that name?
[54:27.100 --> 54:27.420]  Davin.
[54:27.680 --> 54:28.360]  How do you spell that?
[54:28.460 --> 54:29.260]  D-A-V-I-N.
[54:29.480 --> 54:29.700]  Okay.
[54:30.120 --> 54:30.880]  I have a David.
[54:31.020 --> 54:31.640]  D-A-V-I-D.
[54:31.800 --> 54:32.700]  Yeah, that's the one I'm familiar with.
[54:32.720 --> 54:33.740]  From Leander, Texas.
[54:34.040 --> 54:34.300]  All right.
[54:34.920 --> 54:37.080]  I want to thank Kevin from North Bergen.
[54:37.080 --> 54:39.180]  Everybody named Kevin you're getting apparently.
[54:39.320 --> 54:40.380]  I'm really good at what I do.
[54:40.500 --> 54:40.740]  All right.
[54:41.340 --> 54:43.260]  We want to thank Brendan from Astoria.
[54:43.700 --> 54:44.420]  All right, Astoria.
[54:44.560 --> 54:45.840]  Do I have to say where Astoria is?
[54:45.940 --> 54:46.740]  I know where Astoria is.
[54:46.800 --> 54:47.740]  Assuming it's the same one.
[54:48.260 --> 54:50.600]  I'd like to thank Mike from Manisquan, New Jersey.
[54:50.860 --> 54:51.340]  All right.
[54:51.420 --> 54:52.160]  A Jersey person.
[54:52.340 --> 54:52.500]  Yeah.
[54:53.060 --> 54:56.620]  Also, I'd like to thank Mike from Crescent, Saskatoon.
[54:57.300 --> 54:57.760]  Oh, neat.
[54:57.940 --> 54:58.500]  That's Canada.
[54:59.120 --> 54:59.480]  Yes.
[54:59.600 --> 55:00.560]  That's the country to our north.
[55:01.260 --> 55:01.780]  All right.
[55:02.000 --> 55:02.540]  Continue, please.
[55:02.740 --> 55:04.320]  We've got Matthew from Columbus, Ohio.
[55:04.540 --> 55:04.860]  All right.
[55:04.940 --> 55:05.340]  Thank you, Matthew.
[55:05.620 --> 55:08.380]  I want to thank Adam from Holmdale, New Jersey.
[55:08.580 --> 55:09.880]  A lot of New Jersey people today.
[55:10.300 --> 55:11.560]  Susan from Brooklyn.
[55:12.600 --> 55:13.040]  All right.
[55:13.660 --> 55:14.400]  And are we done?
[55:14.560 --> 55:15.240]  Because we're almost out of time.
[55:15.580 --> 55:16.300]  No, I have tons more.
[55:16.420 --> 55:18.060]  Well, hurry up because we're running out of time.
[55:18.180 --> 55:19.660]  Michelle from New Rochelle.
[55:20.660 --> 55:23.260]  I wonder how many times people have written limericks for her.
[55:23.840 --> 55:24.780]  Tom from Dallas.
[55:25.220 --> 55:25.540]  Uh-huh.
[55:26.020 --> 55:27.320]  And William from Mechanicsburg.
[55:27.420 --> 55:28.520]  How did you get so many extras?
[55:28.900 --> 55:29.980]  I'm also really good at it.
[55:30.060 --> 55:31.100]  And which Mechanicsburg is that?
[55:31.140 --> 55:31.460]  Pennsylvania?
[55:31.460 --> 55:31.800]  Pennsylvania.
[55:32.000 --> 55:32.200]  Okay.
[55:32.300 --> 55:33.840]  We drove through there, actually, on the way to Dayton.
[55:34.400 --> 55:34.700]  All right.
[55:34.980 --> 55:38.560]  Carol, I want to thank you so much for coming in and for helping us with this book.
[55:38.680 --> 55:46.300]  Any bits of information you'd like to give out as far as how people can get more information or anything that...
[55:46.300 --> 55:56.760]  Well, certainly about the book, it will be available and it will start shipping to all major resellers like Barnes & Noble, Borders, et cetera, and be available on Amazon.
[55:57.860 --> 56:00.320]  Can I buy it in my local independent bookstore?
[56:00.360 --> 56:01.060]  You can.
[56:01.260 --> 56:01.440]  Good.
[56:05.360 --> 56:10.280]  And those should start appearing July 14th.
[56:11.180 --> 56:15.160]  Of course, HOPES is 18th, 19th, and 20th.
[56:15.240 --> 56:19.960]  So we have a schedule that should make it available.
[56:20.160 --> 56:28.300]  If by any chance your local bookstore, your small independent bookstore doesn't have it, it will be getting it.
[56:29.160 --> 56:34.140]  And I know that we don't broadcast abroad, but it takes about...
[56:34.140 --> 56:34.740]  Oh, yes, we do.
[56:34.880 --> 56:35.160]  We do?
[56:35.460 --> 56:37.560]  This is being carried on the internet all over the world.
[56:37.940 --> 56:38.440]  That's right.
[56:38.540 --> 56:39.080]  You told me that.
[56:39.160 --> 56:39.460]  Absolutely.
[56:39.560 --> 56:40.780]  And archived as well.
[56:40.900 --> 56:49.660]  It takes about six to eight weeks for the physical book to get to physical bookstores in other countries.
[56:50.000 --> 56:58.160]  Thus, you know, Amazon UK, so on and so forth are the best bet for getting it.
[56:58.200 --> 56:59.820]  If you pledge tonight, we'll ship it to you.
[56:59.920 --> 57:01.140]  Can I get it in UK English?
[57:01.980 --> 57:02.340]  No.
[57:03.520 --> 57:15.500]  And the other thing is if the greatest thing you can do for this book is once you've gotten it and you've gone through it is to post a review at Amazon.com.
[57:15.820 --> 57:18.220]  That is the best possible thing you can do.
[57:18.260 --> 57:21.480]  It will help everybody else who wants to get the book.
[57:21.640 --> 57:24.000]  You can call out certain sections, favorite sections.
[57:24.080 --> 57:24.900]  It's really important.
[57:25.240 --> 57:29.920]  And those of you who are from other countries, if you come to Hope, that book will be available there.
[57:29.920 --> 57:34.480]  I have a feeling I'm going to be doing a massive book signing at the conference itself or something like that.
[57:34.700 --> 57:35.220]  Yes.
[57:35.220 --> 57:49.900]  And also, we will be, as we call, pitching this book at the Frankfurt Book Fair, the largest book fair in the world in October for other publishers in foreign countries to license translations.
[57:50.380 --> 57:55.980]  So you may find this in Mandarin, in Spanish, whatever.
[57:56.340 --> 57:56.700]  All right.
[57:57.100 --> 57:58.420]  Carol, again, thank you so much for coming.
[57:58.420 --> 57:58.780]  Thank you.
[57:58.820 --> 58:01.800]  And thanks for all your help in getting this book out, The Best of 2600.
[58:01.960 --> 58:07.020]  Again, available for a pledge of $125, 212-209-2950, only for the next couple of minutes.
[58:07.480 --> 58:09.780]  And available to the world in July.
[58:10.120 --> 58:10.800]  A lot of fun.
[58:11.040 --> 58:12.540]  Thanks, everybody, for supporting us.
[58:12.580 --> 58:15.700]  Thanks for listening and for being a part of the program.
[58:15.800 --> 58:17.920]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[58:18.200 --> 58:20.180]  We'll be back again next week with another exciting show.
[58:20.280 --> 58:20.480]  Good night.
[59:31.750 --> 59:33.510]  I'm living in the future.
[59:33.950 --> 59:35.410]  I feel wonderful.
[59:35.410 --> 59:37.410]  I'm tipping over backwards.
[59:37.890 --> 59:39.170]  I'm so ambitious.
[59:39.670 --> 59:41.050]  I'm looking back.
[59:41.330 --> 59:44.470]  I'm running a race and you're the book I read.
[59:44.810 --> 59:48.790]  So, feel my fingers as they touch your arms.
[59:48.990 --> 59:52.570]  I'm spinning around and I feel all right.
[59:52.690 --> 59:56.570]  The book I read was in your eyes.
[59:56.570 --> 59:57.290]  Ooh, yeah.
[01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:05.380]  All right.
[01:00:05.540 --> 01:00:08.700]  Y'all better join the army so this economy can go up.
[01:00:08.900 --> 01:00:10.620]  It's 8 o'clock.