[00:00.000 --> 00:03.260]  There is no sign that things will change anytime soon.
[00:03.600 --> 00:10.180]  The Nigerian government is unwilling to share oil revenue with local communities in the Niger Delta region.
[00:10.940 --> 00:17.120]  Armed groups in the region say they will continue their insurgency until they achieve their objective.
[00:17.720 --> 00:22.460]  For Free Speech Radio News, this is Sam Olukoya in Port Akut.
[00:24.100 --> 00:26.620]  You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
[00:26.760 --> 00:31.020]  From Pacifica Station KPFK in Los Angeles, I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:32.580 --> 00:36.380]  And you're listening to 99.5 FM WBAI New York.
[00:36.680 --> 00:37.400]  It's 7pm.
[00:37.640 --> 00:39.120]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:54.220 --> 01:55.780]  And a very good evening to you all.
[01:55.880 --> 01:56.840]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:56.940 --> 02:00.120]  This is Red Hack in the studio while Emanuel is abroad.
[02:00.900 --> 02:03.320]  I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
[02:03.560 --> 02:04.180]  Hi there.
[02:05.200 --> 02:05.960]  Rob T.
[02:06.080 --> 02:06.480]  Firefly.
[02:06.760 --> 02:07.320]  Good evening.
[02:07.720 --> 02:08.080]  Voltaire.
[02:08.560 --> 02:08.900]  Hi there.
[02:09.100 --> 02:09.540]  Not Kevin.
[02:09.780 --> 02:10.040]  Hello.
[02:10.040 --> 02:12.100]  And on the phone, we have Bernie.
[02:12.920 --> 02:14.020]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:14.320 --> 02:15.740]  And I believe we have Emmanuel.
[02:16.320 --> 02:18.020]  Yes, but I am not really abroad.
[02:18.020 --> 02:20.340]  I don't know if that's a legal term to use when you're in Canada.
[02:20.920 --> 02:24.800]  I am in Montreal, so I'm next door of the country to the north.
[02:25.600 --> 02:32.700]  I think Montreal counts as abroad, but if you were in Toronto or any place outside of French Canada, it wouldn't count as abroad.
[02:32.960 --> 02:36.220]  Well, I have to tell you, French Canada is very different from English Canada.
[02:36.440 --> 02:38.640]  It's also very, very different from the United States.
[02:38.640 --> 02:42.340]  It's been fun just wandering around here over the last few days.
[02:43.260 --> 02:51.220]  I've driven up to Quebec City, started off in Quebec City, and then went far to the north, almost as far to the north as you can go.
[02:51.620 --> 02:54.460]  There's always a little bit more room to move around.
[02:54.880 --> 03:01.120]  But one thing I just wanted to see was what it looked like up there when it got to BC, so you couldn't really drive any further.
[03:01.120 --> 03:06.680]  And the thing is, you can always drive a little bit further, and I didn't really have time to keep going up into the north to see what it was like.
[03:07.520 --> 03:15.180]  More suburban than I was hoping, more signs of civilization, but still very nice scenery and a lot of space.
[03:16.160 --> 03:19.100]  I went over to this place called Lac Saint-Jean.
[03:19.260 --> 03:26.800]  It's this big lake that's almost due north of Montreal, and there's this interesting zoo over there that I visited, too.
[03:26.880 --> 03:28.860]  The Zoo Sauvage de Saint-Félicien.
[03:29.660 --> 03:31.840]  And actually, it's very lucky.
[03:32.380 --> 03:33.240]  I'm with a friend.
[03:33.380 --> 03:34.600]  We spent all day driving.
[03:34.720 --> 03:39.820]  We arrived in Montreal not more than about 10 minutes ago, so we made it in time for the show.
[03:39.820 --> 03:49.500]  And currently, I'm standing at a payphone next to a soda machine at the bottom downstairs of a hotel, so it might be a little bit noisy, but the important thing is that everyone is here.
[03:50.060 --> 03:50.500]  Emmanuel?
[03:51.040 --> 03:51.520]  Yes, Bernie.
[03:52.580 --> 03:53.020]  Greetings.
[03:53.580 --> 03:54.360]  Greetings to you.
[03:54.440 --> 03:56.560]  Greetings from Montreal to Philadelphia.
[03:57.060 --> 03:57.640]  Yeah, it's nice.
[03:57.840 --> 04:04.900]  Hey, what is petrol or gasoline selling for up in Canada in equivalent U.S.
[04:04.980 --> 04:05.220]  dollars?
[04:05.480 --> 04:06.600]  Well, okay, here's the thing.
[04:06.760 --> 04:09.800]  We filled up the tank once in the States, and it was pretty empty.
[04:09.820 --> 04:10.760]  And that was about $64.
[04:11.800 --> 04:13.100]  I'm not sure how big the tank is.
[04:13.140 --> 04:14.200]  I think it's about 15 gallons.
[04:14.460 --> 04:18.280]  We did it again in Canada, and it came to about $77 Canadian dollars.
[04:18.460 --> 04:24.200]  So depending on how much the Canadian dollar is worth compared to the American dollar, I don't think there's that much of a difference.
[04:25.220 --> 04:32.900]  I know recently the loonie, as the Canadian dollars often lovingly referred to, because there's not enough financial markets, Bernie.
[04:32.980 --> 04:33.980]  They don't call it the loonie there.
[04:34.540 --> 04:37.980]  A while ago, not too long ago, it was actually worth more than the U.S.
[04:38.080 --> 04:38.340]  dollar.
[04:39.420 --> 04:43.240]  Does anyone here on the show know what the story is now?
[04:44.160 --> 04:51.520]  I think you just have to shout out the window to Wall Street below and ask them what the value of the Canadian dollar is, because I think they're taking anything at this point.
[04:51.540 --> 04:53.900]  Emmanuel, I don't think there's anyone left on Wall Street.
[04:53.920 --> 04:55.600]  I think they've all run fleeing.
[04:55.800 --> 04:57.540]  I'm so sorry I'm missing this.
[04:57.640 --> 04:58.260]  I really am.
[04:58.260 --> 05:00.460]  I want to be there for all the chaos and mayhem.
[05:00.840 --> 05:06.860]  And every time something happens, whether it be a blackout or an insurrection of some sort, I always seem to find myself in a different country.
[05:07.080 --> 05:11.340]  Are you following at least the exciting race for the Canadian parliament?
[05:12.160 --> 05:12.600]  Yes.
[05:12.600 --> 05:15.080]  In fact, I saw part of...
[05:15.080 --> 05:16.560]  Well, actually, this was before I left.
[05:16.560 --> 05:20.120]  I saw part of the debates that are going on.
[05:20.380 --> 05:26.100]  What's different about that, there are five candidates up here, and they actually all participate.
[05:26.320 --> 05:32.260]  I was able to watch Elizabeth May, the Green Party representative, participating in a debate, and everyone is actually talking about the issues.
[05:32.440 --> 05:38.320]  And the thing is, the way the system works here, if you get 5 percent of the vote, you get 5 percent of the representation in parliament.
[05:38.740 --> 05:40.160]  So it actually means something.
[05:40.500 --> 05:45.520]  Back in the states, it really doesn't mean that much if you're from a state where it's either going to go for Obama or for McCain.
[05:45.960 --> 05:47.800]  But here, every vote really does count.
[05:48.760 --> 05:51.100]  That's actually not, I think, how it works.
[05:51.640 --> 05:59.080]  They have all these little districts, and you have to get the most in at least one district to end up in the Canadian parliament.
[05:59.640 --> 06:01.580]  But some other countries, it works that way.
[06:01.740 --> 06:02.920]  Well, you can take it over to CBC.
[06:03.100 --> 06:04.200]  They explained it today on the radio.
[06:05.400 --> 06:11.420]  Speaking of the stability of Wall Street, I don't know if the rest of you guys noticed this on the way to the studio, but about a block away, the street is actually missing.
[06:11.760 --> 06:13.200]  There is a big hole being dug in it.
[06:13.200 --> 06:17.060]  And, yeah, the street is actually blocked off for about a block.
[06:17.440 --> 06:23.800]  And unfortunately, according to my investigation, the security guard standing watch over it has already heard all the jokes.
[06:25.640 --> 06:27.360]  About a big hole in Wall Street?
[06:27.540 --> 06:32.080]  Were there any financial workers down in the bottom of that hole?
[06:33.340 --> 06:35.200]  I didn't get close enough to see.
[06:36.260 --> 06:37.080]  I'll say this.
[06:37.180 --> 06:40.240]  People up here are very intrigued by the race.
[06:40.420 --> 06:47.280]  They sort of see the whole McCain-Palin thing as a joke, and they wonder if we take it seriously, because they certainly don't.
[06:47.900 --> 06:53.900]  And they just basically keep asking, you guys really are going to vote for Obama, right?
[06:54.340 --> 06:55.760]  This isn't going to happen again.
[06:55.760 --> 06:59.860]  They seem to be a little bit worried about that, almost with a sense of incredulity.
[07:01.380 --> 07:02.180]  I know how they feel.
[07:03.080 --> 07:04.740]  I think a lot of Americans do that, too.
[07:04.920 --> 07:09.020]  Like, when they ask your political views, they don't just ask, like, oh, who are you going to vote for?
[07:09.120 --> 07:11.540]  They ask, oh, do you think Obama's going to win?
[07:11.600 --> 07:16.640]  Because, like, they want to be reassured that we're not going to face another four more years of Bush.
[07:16.640 --> 07:18.720]  Yes, well, enough politics.
[07:18.900 --> 07:22.420]  Let's get to some dirty business that we have to take care of at the radio station.
[07:22.560 --> 07:25.880]  Now, we want to thank everybody for all their support over the last four weeks.
[07:26.000 --> 07:26.900]  We did incredibly.
[07:27.240 --> 07:29.800]  We raised at least a couple of thousand every week, I believe.
[07:30.220 --> 07:35.320]  And I think of all the shows in the station, we did among the best.
[07:35.920 --> 07:40.180]  However, the station as a whole has not yet reached its goal.
[07:40.180 --> 07:46.700]  So they're asking us tonight, one more time, to ask people to call in with their support.
[07:47.580 --> 07:50.860]  And there are a couple of changes, a couple of things that we're not offering.
[07:50.960 --> 07:56.680]  Maybe you folks in the studio, since you sound so much better than me, can fill the folks in on just what's going on.
[07:56.840 --> 07:57.400]  Yes, indeed.
[07:57.600 --> 08:00.620]  In the past few weeks, we offered some DVDs as premiums.
[08:00.680 --> 08:02.660]  We are unfortunately not offering them today.
[08:03.240 --> 08:04.520]  We have none of those available.
[08:04.520 --> 08:05.940]  But we do have some other things.
[08:05.940 --> 08:13.020]  With every $30 pledge, you get our standard off-the-hook t-shirt, in size extra large.
[08:13.200 --> 08:15.860]  That comes with every $30 pledge.
[08:16.080 --> 08:20.540]  We also have a new off-the-hook t-shirt, which I think not Kevin can describe.
[08:20.960 --> 08:23.060]  Well, it's not an actual off-the-hook t-shirt.
[08:23.180 --> 08:26.780]  It's our new 2600 t-shirt of the phone call security t-shirt.
[08:26.880 --> 08:31.080]  And it's a black t-shirt for all hackers, because everyone wears black t-shirts.
[08:31.440 --> 08:35.240]  And on the front is a friendly octopus named Eve.
[08:35.820 --> 08:39.680]  And it shows all different ways you can intercept a phone call between Alice and Bob.
[08:39.920 --> 08:42.580]  And then on the back has descriptions of each different way.
[08:43.320 --> 08:43.760]  Yes.
[08:43.880 --> 08:45.860]  And that also comes with the $30 pledge.
[08:46.000 --> 08:47.900]  So for that $30, you get both t-shirts.
[08:49.440 --> 08:57.720]  Above that, if you have a pledge of $50, we have an off-the-hook sweatshirt available, which I think you can also describe.
[08:57.720 --> 09:02.460]  I believe the sweatshirt is our black 2600 SEAL sweatshirt, which is fetching.
[09:03.380 --> 09:03.880]  Fetching.
[09:04.080 --> 09:07.780]  Is the sweatshirt fetching, or does it just transform those who wear it?
[09:08.020 --> 09:09.140]  Are they fetching?
[09:09.240 --> 09:10.200]  I think it's interchangeable.
[09:10.680 --> 09:10.860]  Ah.
[09:11.100 --> 09:11.860]  Is it temporary?
[09:12.200 --> 09:15.660]  I just don't know how fetching describes clothing or people.
[09:15.840 --> 09:17.500]  It's a plus-one sweatshirt of fetching.
[09:17.720 --> 09:17.920]  Huh.
[09:17.920 --> 09:27.340]  And if you wish to pledge $75, we have our book, The Best of 2600, A Hacker Odyssey, which will be autographed to you.
[09:28.380 --> 09:40.840]  And that book, of course, is a collection of the best articles to appear in 2600 magazine since its beginning back in 1984, and also some other editorials and writings and things like that.
[09:40.840 --> 09:48.000]  Have we explained yet that in order to make this pledge, you have to call 212-209-2950?
[09:48.320 --> 09:49.140]  That is helpful.
[09:49.340 --> 09:49.480]  Yes.
[09:49.620 --> 09:53.420]  212-209-2950 is the number to call to pledge.
[09:54.600 --> 09:57.240]  And we should also clarify, it's country code one.
[09:57.480 --> 10:01.240]  There's no calls on the line right now, which is really kind of a shame.
[10:01.580 --> 10:12.540]  So if you would like to help us change that fact and maybe let us talk about something else next week, so this fundraiser will meet its goal, the number again, 212-209-2950.
[10:12.840 --> 10:25.020]  And not only do you get these wonderful premiums that Rob was just describing, you also keep this radio station on the air, you keep this program on the air, and that's really the most important thing, I think.
[10:25.780 --> 10:31.780]  I can actually understand why people are not calling in, because we've been doing this now, this is the fifth week, and it is a bit much.
[10:31.780 --> 10:41.680]  So just please consider this, for those of you who missed out the first four weeks that we were doing this, if you somehow missed out, this is your last chance to call in and get any of those great items that were mentioned.
[10:41.780 --> 10:43.080]  But again, as Rob T.
[10:43.160 --> 10:45.540]  Firefly mentioned, we no longer have the DVDs.
[10:45.580 --> 10:50.900]  In fact, I hope you guys send somebody down to Tally to make sure that those aren't accidentally offered, as sometimes they are.
[10:52.200 --> 10:56.920]  We're out of those, but we have the sweatshirts, we have the T-shirts, we have the books.
[10:57.240 --> 10:59.980]  So there's all kinds of interesting things that you can call up for.
[10:59.980 --> 11:07.020]  But I know most of our listeners have called, and we've gotten a really good response, and we're very happy with that.
[11:07.120 --> 11:11.960]  So thanks for the last month of support that you guys have given us.
[11:12.060 --> 11:19.020]  But if you don't have anybody else that might be interested in this, please tell them to call 212-209-2950 before 8 o'clock.
[11:20.120 --> 11:41.300]  And I just want to apologize to the listeners that we have to do this a fifth week in a row, but it costs a lot of money to run a radio station, a major radio station in the middle of New York City, which reaches four states and brings to listeners a huge amount of content that you would not be able to hear on any other radio station.
[11:41.500 --> 11:52.280]  And if you like this show, and you like the idea of a radio station that will actually broadcast a show like this, then please call 212-209-2950.
[11:52.480 --> 11:57.140]  You'll be supporting a really worthwhile cause, and you'll be getting a nice gift as well.
[11:57.320 --> 12:00.360]  You guys are watching the financial shenanigans that are going on in the world.
[12:00.460 --> 12:05.580]  Now imagine trying to run a powerful radio station in New York City while all that's happening.
[12:05.580 --> 12:07.640]  It affects us in all sorts of different ways.
[12:07.820 --> 12:09.040]  It affects everybody.
[12:09.040 --> 12:14.600]  These financial crises are not insulated from common folk like us.
[12:14.600 --> 12:16.300]  We feel the effects.
[12:16.540 --> 12:25.260]  Things become a lot more expensive, becomes more difficult to get things taken care of, to get loans, to get all sorts of things that are necessary in day-to-day business operations.
[12:25.620 --> 12:38.960]  So one thing that we hope is a constant, something that we always can count on are individual people out there, people like you who reside maybe locally, reside on another part of the country, reside in a different country altogether.
[12:39.580 --> 12:44.260]  The important thing is that everybody pitching in together makes WBAI possible.
[12:44.460 --> 12:46.260]  212-209-2950.
[12:46.460 --> 12:48.440]  We must be at, what, 10 calls by now?
[12:48.620 --> 12:56.000]  We have two calls currently on the line, but we have a whole hunt group that can go up to way more than two calls at 212-209-2950.
[12:56.720 --> 13:06.460]  So if you'd like to help us test the medal of the volunteers by making a pledge, don't just call just to make a test, but call and while you're testing, make a pledge.
[13:06.780 --> 13:08.620]  212-209-2950.
[13:08.620 --> 13:11.040]  I'm sure they can handle more than two calls at a time.
[13:11.400 --> 13:20.040]  And I know that when we've spoken to the volunteers in the past, the one thing they hate is really just like sitting there and staring at each other and waiting for you to call.
[13:20.260 --> 13:21.500]  So make them happy.
[13:21.620 --> 13:22.540]  Give them something to do.
[13:22.660 --> 13:24.600]  212-209-2950.
[13:25.000 --> 13:29.200]  They get into conversations there and some of them are quite good and they go on for a long time.
[13:29.320 --> 13:33.120]  And then the problem becomes that the phone rings and they have to interrupt the conversation.
[13:33.420 --> 13:43.780]  So that, you know, do you answer the phone or do you continue talking about something that's really interesting because there are all sorts of things to talk about when you're sitting in a room with a lot of WBAI volunteers.
[13:44.280 --> 13:49.000]  You can help ward off that unpleasantness by making all the phones ring all the time.
[13:49.180 --> 13:54.900]  That way, no one ever has to talk to each other inside that room except to hand in cards and add up the numbers at the end.
[13:55.060 --> 13:56.700]  212-209-2950.
[13:56.700 --> 13:58.780]  Well, if that doesn't get people calling, I don't know what will.
[13:59.400 --> 13:59.820]  Yes.
[13:59.820 --> 14:03.160]  And just to recap, for a $30 pledge, you get both t-shirts.
[14:03.400 --> 14:06.020]  For a $50 pledge, you get our sweatshirt.
[14:06.160 --> 14:08.960]  And for a $75 pledge, you get our book.
[14:09.740 --> 14:24.300]  And I just want to interject, even if you don't want to support this station, which I'm sure everybody who listens to this show does want to do, $30 for getting two really unique t-shirts is a good deal in and of itself.
[14:24.760 --> 14:26.960]  And yet, all the proceeds don't go to us.
[14:27.080 --> 14:37.280]  They go to WBAI-FM, which is really an amazing resource that broadcast information and opinions that you're not going to hear on any other broadcast radio station in this area.
[14:37.780 --> 14:41.300]  So please call 212-209-2950.
[14:41.800 --> 14:45.600]  Support a really worthwhile station and get some great stuff also.
[14:45.900 --> 14:50.880]  And I believe today is the very last day of the fundraiser, not just for us, but for everybody.
[14:51.100 --> 14:51.540]  Is that correct?
[14:52.020 --> 14:52.940]  I believe so.
[14:53.620 --> 14:54.280]  We hope so.
[14:54.660 --> 14:55.280]  Let's hope so.
[14:56.720 --> 14:58.400]  Well, we do like hearing from people.
[14:58.540 --> 15:00.140]  We do like knowing that people are out there.
[15:00.280 --> 15:01.460]  It does make a difference to us.
[15:01.540 --> 15:03.800]  We feel good knowing that people call in and support the place.
[15:04.220 --> 15:07.680]  So you'll make us all feel good by calling 212-209-2950.
[15:08.020 --> 15:09.860]  Now, folks, do we still remember how to do a radio show?
[15:09.980 --> 15:12.600]  Do we still remember how to talk about other things besides raising money?
[15:12.860 --> 15:13.080]  Yes.
[15:13.220 --> 15:15.840]  And speaking of radio shows, I think today is a special day, Emmanuel.
[15:16.140 --> 15:17.260]  Can you tell us why that might be?
[15:17.580 --> 15:18.500]  Oh my gosh, you're right.
[15:18.660 --> 15:23.580]  You know, I know we talked about this earlier, but I actually did forget as I'm standing here next to the soda machine.
[15:24.140 --> 15:30.240]  But yes, oh my goodness, today, actually, maybe it's yesterday, maybe it's tomorrow, you can correct me.
[15:30.520 --> 15:35.580]  It's the 20th anniversary of the very first edition of Off the Hook on WBAI.
[15:35.680 --> 15:35.860]  Wow.
[15:36.480 --> 15:37.280]  Well, congratulations.
[15:38.520 --> 15:45.060]  Well, that's, you know, I never envisioned something like this would happen when I first did that radio program.
[15:45.640 --> 15:47.900]  And I don't know what I would have done had I known that.
[15:47.900 --> 15:51.500]  But yeah, actually, here's the story.
[15:52.220 --> 15:56.040]  You can look on the internet to see which date it actually was.
[15:56.460 --> 16:03.740]  I know the show aired at about, I think, midnight or one o'clock in the morning until about 3.30 in the morning.
[16:03.760 --> 16:05.220]  That was the first ever edition.
[16:05.500 --> 16:07.340]  And it was a special presentation.
[16:07.720 --> 16:12.160]  Now, it was originally supposed to be on sometime in July in the afternoon.
[16:12.880 --> 16:20.940]  The way the whole thing transpired, I was working as a studio engineer at WBAI coming in and basically spinning discs for people or putting on tapes.
[16:21.700 --> 16:29.220]  And eventually, I was able to move my way up enough so that people actually thought I might have something interesting to say as well.
[16:29.780 --> 16:32.880]  And they encouraged me to make a special presentation.
[16:32.880 --> 16:36.220]  And it was scheduled to air on a particular day and time.
[16:36.540 --> 16:42.960]  And the thing that happened on that day and time, this is one of the most unbelievable strokes of fate I've ever witnessed.
[16:43.320 --> 16:51.860]  There was a fire in the transmitter room at the Empire State Building where every single radio station in New York City broadcast from at that time.
[16:52.100 --> 17:03.080]  And the result of that was that one minute before my special program was to air, on that afternoon in July of 1988, every radio station in New York City went off the air.
[17:03.860 --> 17:13.880]  Now, that was something that was very upsetting to me because getting time on WBAI was then and still is now a very precious thing.
[17:14.660 --> 17:24.760]  And so the fact that I was knocked off the air for almost the exact duration of that special program meant that I couldn't get rescheduled for months down the line.
[17:24.880 --> 17:26.680]  In fact, it wound up airing in October.
[17:27.300 --> 17:41.880]  And I realized at the time that of all the radio stations in New York City, every single one that got knocked off the air that day, I was really the only person to feel the effects of it that strongly because every other radio station just plays music and they can just go back to their regular schedule.
[17:42.460 --> 17:52.260]  WBAI is the only radio station that has individual programs so that when you wipe out one program, it really hurts because you can't just replace it the next hour.
[17:52.380 --> 17:53.900]  The next hour is going to be completely different.
[17:54.320 --> 17:56.800]  So it was an interesting way to start the show.
[17:57.360 --> 18:01.560]  The first one began, as I said, on that night in October of 1988.
[18:02.140 --> 18:10.200]  And then that was it until sometime in 1989, when I believe we interviewed John Markoff about the notorious computer criminal Kevin Mitnick.
[18:10.400 --> 18:12.480]  Yes, we were talking about that back then.
[18:12.960 --> 18:16.700]  And it slowly, slowly started to become a regular thing.
[18:16.720 --> 18:18.460]  It was mostly a special at that point.
[18:18.800 --> 18:23.380]  But in the early 90s, it became a bi-weekly series and then eventually a weekly series.
[18:23.500 --> 18:24.980]  And I guess the rest is history.
[18:24.980 --> 18:29.640]  The first date was October 7th, 19... October 7th.
[18:29.700 --> 18:30.140]  And what's today?
[18:30.300 --> 18:31.120]  Today is October 8th?
[18:31.280 --> 18:31.360]  Yep.
[18:31.620 --> 18:33.000]  Yeah, so we missed it by one day.
[18:33.940 --> 18:38.480]  And it would actually have been on 20 years ago to the day yesterday morning.
[18:39.040 --> 18:40.180]  So 20 years and one day.
[18:40.580 --> 18:40.680]  Sorry.
[18:40.780 --> 18:41.160]  Yeah, it's Bernie.
[18:41.700 --> 18:43.240]  Now, I just want to congratulate you.
[18:43.400 --> 18:53.360]  There are very few people who have been able to pull off the feet of keeping a radio show on the air for two decades.
[18:53.860 --> 19:06.300]  And I just want to hand it to you for continually coming up with interesting content and interesting guests that people are apparently interested in listening to or the show wouldn't still be on the air after 20 years.
[19:06.400 --> 19:12.220]  I just want to thank you for doing this for 20 years of your life because it's a special thing.
[19:12.220 --> 19:14.420]  And we have listeners who think it's special, too.
[19:14.860 --> 19:17.640]  And I just want to throw in another plug for the station.
[19:17.640 --> 19:27.960]  If you want to support the kind of radio station that will air a hacker radio show for 20 years, please call 212-209-2950.
[19:28.040 --> 19:32.300]  You'll be supporting a really good cause and getting a couple of great gifts, too.
[19:32.940 --> 19:34.760]  Well, thank you, Bernie, for those kind words.
[19:34.840 --> 19:38.140]  And yes, it has been 20 years out of my life that I'll never get back.
[19:38.400 --> 19:43.860]  But I put that in willingly and with joy because it does give back.
[19:44.100 --> 19:53.060]  Hearing from the listeners is always one of my favorite pastimes, just knowing people are out there listening, hearing from people in different parts of the world that hear the radio program.
[19:53.200 --> 19:54.000]  It's really, really cool.
[19:54.160 --> 19:55.820]  But particularly, I want to thank two people.
[19:55.880 --> 20:01.500]  I want to thank Anthony Sloan, the guy who trained me at WBAI and encouraged me to learn how everything works.
[20:01.900 --> 20:05.480]  Not that I know how everything works, but I do know how the most important things work.
[20:05.860 --> 20:11.020]  And Andrew Phillips, the program director at the time who encouraged me to go ahead with Off the Hook.
[20:11.040 --> 20:16.920]  At the time, I just wanted to do a normal type of a talk show, like I was doing on WUSB out on the island.
[20:17.620 --> 20:25.320]  And he encouraged me to pursue the telephone aspect of it with the Off the Hook special and make that into something a little bit more regular.
[20:25.720 --> 20:31.800]  I have to admit, at the time, I wasn't sold on the idea that I could come up with something every week to talk about.
[20:32.260 --> 20:35.400]  Of course, I'd been working on a magazine, 2600 since 1984.
[20:36.280 --> 20:43.180]  But I wasn't sure at the time that there would be enough to actually keep something on a major FM radio station in New York City and to keep an audience.
[20:43.600 --> 20:44.820]  And boy, was I surprised.
[20:45.000 --> 20:51.820]  Back then in the early days, of course, we only broadcast to the quad state area, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania.
[20:52.240 --> 20:55.000]  There was no broadcast on the Internet.
[20:55.700 --> 21:00.060]  So it's interesting to listen to those early shows because you hear the audience is completely different.
[21:00.180 --> 21:04.120]  You hear that really just people who are listening in real time, locally.
[21:04.460 --> 21:11.260]  And of course, that all changed in the 90s when we were able to expand onto the Internet and start getting listeners from all around the world.
[21:11.340 --> 21:13.320]  And of course, that changed the radio station as well.
[21:13.560 --> 21:19.660]  So we were able to expand greatly and really change the face of radio in many ways.
[21:19.800 --> 21:25.040]  I know radio is diminishing in many ways for a lot of stations and a lot of formats.
[21:25.040 --> 21:31.820]  But I don't think that's true for WBAI and for the things that we do because people all over the world are interested in the things we're talking about.
[21:31.820 --> 21:35.960]  And they don't have that resource in their town or even in their country.
[21:36.700 --> 21:40.980]  So to hear a show like Off the Hook on WBAI, it just opened so many doors.
[21:41.720 --> 21:46.860]  So a lot of people have put together so much effort over the years.
[21:47.120 --> 21:51.460]  And they really deserve the bulk of the thanks for making the program what it is today.
[21:52.660 --> 21:54.820]  Now, what was it like in those early days?
[21:55.040 --> 21:56.480]  How was it different from today?
[21:57.020 --> 22:00.820]  Well, it was different in that I usually did the show all by myself.
[22:01.180 --> 22:03.180]  I didn't have a studio filled with people.
[22:03.180 --> 22:07.300]  I just would come in and talk about some things and take some phone calls and that would be it.
[22:07.920 --> 22:11.980]  And then something interesting started to happen, I guess, as the show began.
[22:11.980 --> 22:15.000]  That's when Fiber Optic started showing up.
[22:15.240 --> 22:20.400]  And some of his friends from Masters of Deception, M.O.D., the notorious hacker gang.
[22:20.940 --> 22:24.020]  And we just sort of would hang out after the show.
[22:24.020 --> 22:25.100]  And it became a social event.
[22:25.300 --> 22:26.820]  And we had more things to talk about.
[22:26.880 --> 22:28.400]  We had conversations back and forth.
[22:28.400 --> 22:30.400]  And we could have arguments and take more phone calls.
[22:30.900 --> 22:36.240]  And the show kind of evolved into something bigger than originally it started out as.
[22:36.540 --> 22:38.520]  And now, of course, we have what is it?
[22:38.660 --> 22:40.400]  We have about ten people in the studio.
[22:40.580 --> 22:45.620]  We have another twenty or thirty waiting outside in case one of you has to leave for some reason.
[22:45.740 --> 22:46.420]  They'll take your place.
[22:46.660 --> 22:51.740]  There's the amazing amount of interest in just being on the radio station and on the radio show.
[22:51.920 --> 22:53.900]  So it's definitely changed.
[22:54.000 --> 22:56.500]  And I don't know what the next ten or twenty years will bring.
[22:56.600 --> 22:57.780]  But I'm sure it will change even more.
[22:59.500 --> 23:05.360]  Do you have any predictions, Emmanuel, about how... and it's really hard to look forward in the future.
[23:05.580 --> 23:21.800]  And people who go to our archives, which is at 2600.com slash off the hook, can look back and see where we've been over the past twenty years and how far we've come in all manner of communications technologies and how we do the show.
[23:21.880 --> 23:28.380]  Do you have any predictions or hopes for where the show will go over the next twenty years?
[23:28.800 --> 23:42.040]  Well, I'd just like to... I know we've been involved in all sorts of things, particularly your story, the crazy stuff you went through in the nineties, broadcasting that week by week and letting people know what was going on with your case.
[23:42.280 --> 23:44.480]  I'd like to be involved in...
[23:45.380 --> 23:52.580]  if people are unfortunate enough to go through situations like that, certainly in those situations, but also in other things that are going on around the planet.
[23:54.060 --> 23:55.220]  That takes more people.
[23:55.280 --> 23:56.140]  That takes more coordination.
[23:56.140 --> 24:01.700]  But I think that's something that we really need to focus on more to simply...
[24:01.700 --> 24:04.200]  The problem today is that there are too many things happening.
[24:04.340 --> 24:09.200]  There are too many legal challenges and too many laws being passed, and it's so hard.
[24:09.200 --> 24:16.860]  We get so much mail, we get press releases from the EFF, we get all kinds of things, and it's really hard to know where to focus your attention and what to be outraged at.
[24:17.300 --> 24:31.640]  And I think that's kind of what our job should be, is to serve as a filter for all the stuff that keeps coming in and letting people know this is important, this is something that we've been through before, and this is something that could be a real danger down the road.
[24:32.100 --> 24:38.300]  But as I said, that takes a lot of coordination, a lot of help, and I guess we can use as much help as we can get.
[24:39.440 --> 24:40.960]  So you were saying you were... Sorry.
[24:41.240 --> 24:41.700]  Go ahead.
[24:41.800 --> 24:57.340]  I was going to say, well, the amount of help we could use right now to help keep this show on the air, and that's probably sounding like a broken record, is just to call and support this station with as much as you can provide, even if it's a small amount of money.
[24:57.620 --> 25:08.820]  The amount of money isn't that important, it's just the amount of supporters who call 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0, and place some support for WBAI-FM, who's keep this resource on the air.
[25:09.160 --> 25:25.940]  What I'd like to do is ask each of you to tell me or tell the listeners how you all got involved in the radio show, if you ever had heard of WBAI before you came down, and any kind of feedback you might have gotten to being on the radio.
[25:26.040 --> 25:31.400]  Do people, do your friends even know that you're on the radio, and what kind of, has that hurt you or helped you, things like that?
[25:31.500 --> 25:33.380]  I guess, why don't we start with you, Bernie?
[25:35.560 --> 25:49.280]  Well, I've been sort of affiliated with the magazine 2600 since, I think, the mid-late 80s, I think around 87, 88, I think I might have sent my first article in, even though I read it from earlier on.
[25:49.540 --> 26:02.760]  And I was really fascinated by the idea that people would actually publish information that was considered forbidden or really hard to get from a technical standpoint information.
[26:03.520 --> 26:13.860]  And then I think, as far as the radio show goes, I wasn't able to listen to it in Philadelphia because the radio signal didn't reach this far down and it wasn't streamed over the internet in the 80s.
[26:13.920 --> 26:21.840]  But I do remember sometime in the late 80s, you started calling me occasionally for comments about just stuff, to be a telephone guest.
[26:22.140 --> 26:25.920]  It just wasn't feasible for me to travel up to New York to be in the studio.
[26:26.160 --> 26:28.460]  So you started calling me occasionally for comments.
[26:28.480 --> 26:39.060]  I think one of the earlier calls, you called me on a cell phone because the only phone I had since the late 80s was a cell phone.
[26:39.180 --> 26:42.860]  I haven't had a landline for a long time, a couple of decades.
[26:43.620 --> 26:46.260]  I was involved with the cellular industry from the beginning.
[26:46.460 --> 26:47.700]  And I remember you calling me.
[26:48.020 --> 26:49.840]  It was such a novel thing.
[26:49.840 --> 26:51.560]  You called me and I was in a supermarket.
[26:51.900 --> 26:58.200]  And I was walking down the supermarket aisles on the phone with you in the conversation being broadcast over a major radio station.
[26:58.360 --> 26:59.200]  It was such a novelty.
[26:59.480 --> 27:03.220]  It's like, wait, this guy's walking around in a supermarket and he's live on the radio.
[27:03.220 --> 27:05.960]  It was really just unusual.
[27:06.140 --> 27:07.280]  Now it's like, so what?
[27:07.460 --> 27:11.140]  But we tend to bring interesting things like that to our listeners.
[27:12.140 --> 27:23.720]  And I think on and off, I've been on the show now for, since the mid-90s, since I got locked up on a hacking charge and was able to call from prison.
[27:23.920 --> 27:27.820]  So it's been a wild ride and I appreciate the opportunity to be on the show.
[27:28.160 --> 27:32.880]  Well, it's interesting you should say that because, yeah, prison calls, that's something that we've brought to people.
[27:33.560 --> 27:39.260]  And cell calls, the early cell calls on the radio, that's something that certainly I guess we pioneered.
[27:39.420 --> 27:43.400]  I remember one show in particular when Fiber Optic was late for the radio station.
[27:43.700 --> 27:49.200]  He was actually leaving his apartment downtown and taking a cab up to when we were on 35th Street.
[27:49.560 --> 27:58.620]  And the whole conversation was broadcast over the radio where he was actually talking on his cell phone back in the 90s and driving all the way uptown.
[27:59.000 --> 28:00.720]  And that kind of thing was just unusual.
[28:00.920 --> 28:01.720]  People didn't do that.
[28:01.860 --> 28:05.700]  And of course, yeah, as you say, now it's a common occurrence.
[28:05.700 --> 28:09.320]  And I guess some of the mystery and romance has gone out of that a bit.
[28:09.620 --> 28:19.440]  So I guess, you know, one of the things that, to further answer your question, that I'd like to bring to people in the future is just more innovative ideas of things people haven't yet tried and aren't doing to death today.
[28:19.520 --> 28:23.900]  So hopefully we have enough imagination and ingenuity to do that.
[28:24.080 --> 28:25.660]  Now, who's next with their story?
[28:27.580 --> 28:28.300]  I'll volunteer.
[28:30.580 --> 28:33.800]  I actually first got into the show just randomly.
[28:33.900 --> 28:36.260]  I caught it on the dial in the early 90s.
[28:36.420 --> 28:37.700]  I was still in school at the time.
[28:38.080 --> 28:52.520]  And I knew the hacker scene, the hacker culture, just from things like, you know, shady BBS calls late at night and, you know, shadier teleconferences on, you know, random phone numbers.
[28:52.980 --> 29:09.180]  And catching you guys, you know, openly on the open airwaves throughout the tri-state area, talking about stuff that I had only, you know, heard about in magazines and the, you know, random magazine article in other magazines besides yours.
[29:09.920 --> 29:11.160]  And, you know, things like that.
[29:11.240 --> 29:16.280]  It really, it really just drove it home to me that this was not just something shady and quote-unquote underground.
[29:16.880 --> 29:19.980]  It was, it was something that, that did really exist in the world.
[29:20.180 --> 29:35.980]  And the show actually provided me with a lot of the wherewithal to involve myself, not only in hacker culture publicly on online and things like that, but to actually get out of the house and go to my first 2600 meeting and go to, you know, hacker cons and things like that.
[29:36.400 --> 29:41.360]  And so actually it was pretty instrumental in getting me where I am today, which is sitting here.
[29:44.480 --> 29:45.860]  I guess, I guess I can go next.
[29:47.020 --> 29:50.180]  I started reading 2600 back in, I guess, the late 90s.
[29:51.420 --> 29:59.440]  And, you know, it was really, really struck a chord with me and I got, you know, reading and I was very interested in all the articles and I wanted to go to the conferences and things like that.
[29:59.440 --> 30:15.100]  And, you know, again, I also, I went to the meetings and started meeting people and somehow in 2002, I was able to finagle my way onto the program and be a panelist, maybe at first temporarily, and then it gradually grew more and more permanent.
[30:15.320 --> 30:30.340]  But it's really, you know, opened a whole world to me because there's tons of places I've been to, I've traveled to conferences and things like that and people I've gotten to meet that it's just been really a wild ride since then.
[30:30.620 --> 30:31.740]  It's six years now, huh?
[30:32.400 --> 30:32.580]  Wow.
[30:32.620 --> 30:41.760]  I want to say that I really enjoyed the episodes of Off the Hook where we called you while you were serving in the Finnish Army.
[30:42.320 --> 30:42.700]  Yes.
[30:42.700 --> 30:46.940]  Our series, While the Army Sleeps, with that great theme music, I might add.
[30:47.420 --> 30:52.180]  And, I mean, there aren't any other radio stations or shows that are going to do that kind of stuff.
[30:52.240 --> 31:02.800]  Like, call some guy who's in a tent in a Finnish Army live on the show and ask their opinions about what's going on over there and the world and so forth.
[31:02.800 --> 31:08.080]  This is the kind of stuff that Off the Hook brings people and it's just really off the hook.
[31:08.620 --> 31:20.700]  As a byproduct of that, Bernie, there are many stations that would actually give you the environment with such a thing to be done on a radio show.
[31:21.060 --> 31:27.640]  Other stations would discourage you from being creative or from calling somebody overseas like that.
[31:27.780 --> 31:31.880]  And at WBAI, I've always had the feeling that creativity is welcome.
[31:32.660 --> 31:37.600]  And that means that other shows, new shows can be born in the future.
[31:38.280 --> 31:41.820]  Maybe people listening out there one day will want to do their own program at WBAI.
[31:41.920 --> 31:46.860]  They can walk in and start learning how the whole place works and one day find themselves on the air.
[31:47.320 --> 31:57.680]  Anything is possible at this place, which is why it's so important that people continue to call 212-209-2950, support the place, get some of our cool premiums and various things like that.
[31:57.680 --> 32:00.600]  Perhaps before we continue, we should repeat the premiums again.
[32:01.320 --> 32:05.260]  I think it was two t-shirts for the $30, right?
[32:05.260 --> 32:05.680]  Yes, indeed.
[32:06.160 --> 32:08.400]  Two t-shirts for $30.
[32:08.560 --> 32:10.960]  For $50, you get the off-the-hook sweatshirt.
[32:12.500 --> 32:18.120]  For $75, you get the best of 2600, a hacker odyssey inscribed to you.
[32:18.300 --> 32:19.700]  What if you pledge like $1,000?
[32:19.700 --> 32:25.400]  If you pledge $1,000, you'll still get the best of 2600, a hacker odyssey inscribed directly to you.
[32:25.580 --> 32:26.320]  That's pretty good.
[32:26.620 --> 32:28.080]  And the radio station.
[32:28.280 --> 32:30.100]  That and the radio station is a pretty good deal.
[32:30.420 --> 32:31.920]  Let me just clarify something here.
[32:32.080 --> 32:44.560]  When you pledge $30, you're not actually getting... I mean, you are getting two t-shirts, but the way it works is everybody who pledges $30 and above gets an off-the-hook t-shirt that we only give to off-the-hook subscribers, off-the-hook contributors,
[32:44.680 --> 32:46.160]  people who support the radio station.
[32:46.440 --> 32:49.920]  So what we're offering is a new 2600 t-shirt for $30.
[32:50.360 --> 32:53.980]  And since you make that $30 minimum, you also get the off-the-hook t-shirt thrown in.
[32:54.060 --> 32:56.200]  So it's actually... you're getting two t-shirts.
[32:56.340 --> 33:01.920]  Just as if you pledge for the sweatshirt for $50, you get the t-shirt thrown in because that's above $30 as well.
[33:02.000 --> 33:04.620]  In fact, everything that we're talking about today is above $30.
[33:04.720 --> 33:07.340]  So for the book, for $75, you'll get the t-shirt as well.
[33:07.440 --> 33:14.060]  So if you pledge $1,000, you get the book, you get a t-shirt, and the station.
[33:14.120 --> 33:19.100]  And you get the radio station, which is worth, I mean, well more than $1,000, I think.
[33:19.100 --> 33:19.900]  It's true.
[33:21.180 --> 33:22.060]  Okay, back to stories.
[33:23.040 --> 33:23.680]  Who's next?
[33:24.060 --> 33:24.580]  Who's next?
[33:24.660 --> 33:26.180]  I guess I'll go next.
[33:27.120 --> 33:33.800]  A good number of years ago, I believe it was after H2K2 when I first became involved with you guys.
[33:33.800 --> 33:35.140]  That's where I met most of you.
[33:36.960 --> 33:40.280]  And I happened to hear on the radio that you guys were going to the Trenton Computer Festival.
[33:40.440 --> 33:46.980]  So I emailed the list and I said, hey, you know, I do this audio work, and you guys mind if I come out and record it for you?
[33:46.980 --> 33:50.200]  And Emmanuel replied back, yeah, sure, why not?
[33:50.260 --> 33:50.740]  That'd be great.
[33:50.960 --> 33:59.000]  So I took the 20-hour train ride out to Trenton, New Jersey, and met all of you again, as you'd all forgotten me.
[33:59.200 --> 34:09.840]  And after that, I kind of just started showing up at the station, unannounced, and waiting around for you guys just to talk, more or less, because I had nothing other to do while I'm in the city.
[34:10.000 --> 34:10.740]  Oh, that was you.
[34:10.740 --> 34:12.160]  Yeah, that was that guy.
[34:13.240 --> 34:17.580]  And after a while of doing that, I believe I was invited in, and I just kind of sat around.
[34:17.580 --> 34:22.240]  I was too shy to talk on the air, and I was just the guy who sat in the background and laughed a lot.
[34:22.760 --> 34:30.120]  And it kind of developed into this, where now I'm here, sitting and talking, and it's probably one of the greatest experiences I've had in my life.
[34:30.120 --> 34:38.920]  It's completely opened my eyes to a whole new world of things, and now I hope to actually continue doing radio for the rest of my time.
[34:40.740 --> 34:41.180]  Awesome.
[34:42.400 --> 34:42.840]  Awesome.
[34:43.180 --> 34:44.620]  I guess I'll go with my story.
[34:46.060 --> 34:54.080]  Yeah, I started reading like 2600, I guess like two or three years ago, and I should see like advertisements for off the hook.
[34:54.340 --> 34:59.080]  And since I'm in New York, I could actually tune into the station, which is pretty handy.
[34:59.080 --> 35:05.860]  And then, so yeah, so I got really interested in the show, and like in technology in general.
[35:07.060 --> 35:14.960]  And after that, I started listening to like programs on WBAI after and before off the hook, like after you speech radio news.
[35:15.180 --> 35:19.920]  And it kind of opened my eyes to this whole like anti-war community, and I've been really active in that as well.
[35:20.100 --> 35:24.300]  So I think that it just goes to show how important the radio station is.
[35:25.100 --> 35:31.340]  I think Voltaire also, you bring up a good point in that people should listen to other things on the radio station as well.
[35:31.720 --> 35:36.480]  Guaranteed you'll find something that you can't stand, but also guaranteed you'll find something that you love, probably more than us.
[35:36.880 --> 35:42.020]  You just have to tune to 99.5 or WBAI.org and listen at random times.
[35:42.020 --> 35:43.400]  Look at the schedule that's online.
[35:44.140 --> 35:49.240]  And you'll find that the variety of programming is just unrivaled anyplace else.
[35:49.420 --> 35:54.520]  And the only reason that that's even possible is because of our listeners who have made it possible since 1960.
[35:55.340 --> 35:56.500]  Yeah, that's a very good point.
[35:56.620 --> 36:02.320]  You'll find something on the WBAI schedule that you can't stand, but you'll find something that you can stand.
[36:02.460 --> 36:03.920]  And the important thing is you have the choice.
[36:04.100 --> 36:09.220]  We're not broadcasting just generic stuff to the lowest common denominator.
[36:09.800 --> 36:12.400]  We're actually located in New York, I promise you.
[36:12.400 --> 36:13.000]  Yes, indeed.
[36:13.240 --> 36:16.020]  We're actually in the studio, which is an uncommon thing in radio now.
[36:16.140 --> 36:17.200]  How can you prove that, though?
[36:19.440 --> 36:21.440]  The security guard downstairs will tell you.
[36:23.000 --> 36:27.060]  We could scan in our building passes and post them onto the internet.
[36:27.220 --> 36:27.400]  Yeah.
[36:28.100 --> 36:29.120]  We could describe the studio.
[36:29.300 --> 36:30.280]  It's a very nice room, actually.
[36:30.980 --> 36:32.040]  Sound not proven.
[36:32.300 --> 36:35.040]  I don't want to describe that poster on the wall with the 730 words.
[36:35.240 --> 36:37.160]  Could use a little feng shui, some decorating.
[36:37.800 --> 36:38.920]  It's got a nice clock.
[36:40.900 --> 36:56.600]  I wanted to interject that I don't know if everyone in the studio has had time to tell their off-the-hook stories and their history, but we've had a lot of other regulars on the show over the years, and some really interesting people have come and gone.
[36:56.600 --> 37:06.320]  Emmanuel, you could probably tell the audience about some of the people who've come and gone, but one of my favorites is a Jeopardy!
[37:06.380 --> 37:24.340]  Jim, who was on the show up until last year when he suffered a stroke, but I know he's listening to the show right now, and he is looking forward to being back on this show as soon as his speech centers are rewired in his brain, and our technicians are working on that as we speak.
[37:24.680 --> 37:36.700]  So he's completely with us, he knows what's going on completely, and he wants to be on the show as soon as he can get back in verbal shape.
[37:36.900 --> 37:42.800]  So, Jim, I just want to say hello to you on the air, and urge you to get back as soon as you can, because we miss you.
[37:44.020 --> 37:44.520]  Yes, indeed.
[37:44.620 --> 37:45.500]  You are terribly missed.
[37:49.140 --> 37:55.140]  Who else, Emmanuel, over the years, have you enjoyed having the show?
[37:55.280 --> 37:55.340]  Bernie, Bernie.
[37:55.340 --> 37:57.520]  Hang on, I think Mike would like to tell us his story first.
[37:57.720 --> 37:58.280]  Do I have to?
[37:58.500 --> 37:59.180]  I don't have to.
[38:00.460 --> 38:05.140]  So I've been involved with 2600, I guess, since around 2000.
[38:05.140 --> 38:17.760]  I became involved around the time of the DECSS hoopla, and at some point I just started showing up to the radio show, and then I kept showing up to the radio show.
[38:18.680 --> 38:22.220]  And now I need to, you know, I don't know.
[38:24.220 --> 38:38.560]  And it's really been a large set of opportunities that have been a lot of causes that we've been able to engage with on this program and bring to our listeners and have our listeners bring to us, and I think that's really fascinating.
[38:38.920 --> 38:53.500]  And I will say that I think Off the Hook remains to this day the only radio program in the United States where the host and some of the guests of the program are in Cuba and still there.
[38:53.500 --> 38:56.520]  We ask you for money to keep this station going.
[38:56.520 --> 39:05.240]  We ask you then, and we'll ask you again today to call 212-209-2950, because there's really nothing like this place.
[39:05.860 --> 39:09.400]  And I'm asking from Canada that people call in and support the radio station.
[39:09.560 --> 39:14.020]  I've asked for money from, I think, a few different continents on WBAI.
[39:14.220 --> 39:20.320]  And it's good to know that people actually listen and take that seriously and help support the place.
[39:20.600 --> 39:22.760]  Did I ask for money from North Korea when I was there?
[39:22.880 --> 39:25.620]  No, I don't think I did, because I wasn't actually broadcasting live from there.
[39:26.700 --> 39:28.960]  We might have also had a week off from fundraising.
[39:28.960 --> 39:29.680]  I don't remember.
[39:30.140 --> 39:31.320]  It does happen occasionally.
[39:32.700 --> 39:34.240]  Well, you know what we could do?
[39:34.700 --> 39:43.140]  If we're up to this, we could open up the phone lines and ask our listeners for their memories of Off the Hook over the years, maybe when they first got involved.
[39:44.180 --> 39:51.040]  But RedHack, that's up to you really, because invariably when we have two people on the phone and we start taking phone calls, we wind up losing somebody.
[39:52.560 --> 39:55.120]  And do you think we can do this?
[39:55.260 --> 39:56.080]  This is terrifying.
[39:56.240 --> 39:57.400]  I don't remember how to hang up the phone.
[39:57.580 --> 39:58.820]  I'll take care of the phone.
[39:58.920 --> 39:59.240]  Okay.
[40:00.440 --> 40:05.440]  But we should remind people that before they call us to talk to us, they should call us to pledge.
[40:05.440 --> 40:09.380]  And the pledge number is 212-209-2950.
[40:09.620 --> 40:14.820]  And the number to talk to us, which you'll call second, is 212-209-2900.
[40:15.420 --> 40:19.240]  And if we lose either of you guys, we apologize in advance.
[40:19.940 --> 40:20.380]  Yeah.
[40:20.500 --> 40:21.720]  Well, curse is in advance then.
[40:24.080 --> 40:25.040]  So, yeah.
[40:25.480 --> 40:28.760]  Any stories in the news that we wish to cover?
[40:31.120 --> 40:39.280]  Well, apparently today the student who broke into Sarah Palin's email address was indicted.
[40:39.560 --> 40:40.380]  Oh, okay.
[40:40.440 --> 40:40.980]  I didn't hear this.
[40:41.040 --> 40:41.580]  Tell me about this.
[40:42.060 --> 40:51.060]  Apparently he faces up to a $250,000 fine and five years in jail for guessing correctly.
[40:51.060 --> 40:56.640]  This is the guy who basically figured out the answer to her question, where she met her husband, and what her zip code was.
[40:56.800 --> 40:57.020]  Yes.
[40:57.760 --> 40:58.180]  All right.
[40:58.260 --> 41:01.700]  And for that, he's going to get a $250,000 fine and how long in prison?
[41:01.840 --> 41:02.380]  Five years.
[41:02.740 --> 41:02.920]  Five years.
[41:03.020 --> 41:04.260]  I would say the maximum.
[41:04.460 --> 41:05.960]  The thing is, they say up to five years.
[41:06.160 --> 41:13.980]  So, in like six months or a year or two years, when they finally get around to finishing this up and he gets, you know, six months in jail or whatever, we're all going to have forgotten by then.
[41:14.140 --> 41:14.280]  Right.
[41:14.760 --> 41:19.380]  And for all the people out there who are saying this guy broke the law, he's getting what he deserved, I just want to ask them one thing.
[41:19.560 --> 41:22.560]  If you know that simply by typing in George W.
[41:22.680 --> 41:31.700]  Bush's zip code, you can get all of his emails that he's been sending while in office, and you can find out all kinds of potential things that he's been up to that we don't know about.
[41:32.080 --> 41:36.220]  Do you think that might be worth stepping over the line a little bit?
[41:36.220 --> 41:37.080]  Do you think maybe you have the obligation?
[41:37.080 --> 41:38.220]  But George Bush knows how to use email.
[41:38.800 --> 41:40.980]  And in addition to that fact, she's not even supposed to...
[41:40.980 --> 41:42.440]  It's a hypothetical situation, I said that.
[41:42.540 --> 41:53.660]  She's not even supposed to be using a personal email address to send government-related emails, because the idea is that when it's on the government servers, in theory, it's logged, and then, you know, they have accountability.
[41:53.900 --> 41:58.060]  Whereas here, she could use anything to try to hide, you know, what she's doing.
[41:58.840 --> 42:06.960]  Just the fact that she didn't use any security at all to secure what supposedly was private, but actually wasn't completely private information.
[42:07.080 --> 42:08.560]  It was, as you say, public information.
[42:09.780 --> 42:15.620]  That's an eye-opener right there, that she doesn't know enough about security to use a question that's not so obvious.
[42:16.860 --> 42:16.980]  Yeah.
[42:17.940 --> 42:25.000]  But, Red Act, in that hypothetical situation of George Bush's zip code, why would you have such information as George Bush's zip code?
[42:25.000 --> 42:28.540]  What sort of person are you that you would, you know, be able to find that out?
[42:28.640 --> 42:29.800]  Digging through his trash?
[42:31.020 --> 42:31.740]  Yes, exactly.
[42:32.500 --> 42:33.800]  It brings back memories.
[42:33.920 --> 42:47.860]  If we're talking about memories of off-the-hook, we would always expose various security holes, such as MCI, requiring your zip code as your security code, so that you could see all the phone numbers that you were calling in your calling circle.
[42:48.000 --> 42:48.640]  Things like that.
[42:48.840 --> 42:53.100]  And we'd play it on the air, we'd broadcast it, we'd embarrass them, and, of course, the next week it would be changed.
[42:53.100 --> 43:05.220]  But for something like that, no one ever thought that we'd be charged as some kind of a criminal for exposing this security weakness, because, obviously, people deserve to know this kind of a thing.
[43:05.380 --> 43:15.840]  And if Sarah Palin is using her social security number as her PIN, that's something that I think we deserve to know, that she really isn't very conscious of security.
[43:16.340 --> 43:17.740]  Or that's with in general.
[43:17.740 --> 43:23.900]  Well, one of the problems with the mail service she used is that it didn't have very secure questions to begin with.
[43:24.000 --> 43:26.120]  The questions were offered to you, and then you...
[43:26.120 --> 43:27.420]  A lot of systems have that.
[43:27.580 --> 43:31.560]  They say, you know, answer so-and-so question, and they don't give you an option.
[43:31.800 --> 43:33.420]  Okay, but, you know, she didn't have to use Yahoo, then.
[43:34.440 --> 43:36.280]  She shouldn't have been using it, but...
[43:36.280 --> 43:39.860]  I know she felt an affinity to the word, but she didn't have to use it.
[43:39.860 --> 43:40.880]  You betcha.
[43:42.360 --> 43:42.880]  Gosh.
[43:44.240 --> 43:52.960]  This reminds me of the case up here in Canada, actually, that we got some email about the guy who figured out student card data.
[43:53.120 --> 44:01.680]  He installed some software on a computer attached to a card reader and then was able to capture all this information about students.
[44:01.680 --> 44:03.160]  There was virtually no security.
[44:03.280 --> 44:05.560]  What he did was he let everybody know about this.
[44:05.560 --> 44:30.140]  He sent mail to 32 students to the university, and the university responded by charging him, saying that he was a criminal and insisting that he send letters of apology, pay fines, perform community service for an entire school year, complete a post-secondary ethics course by the end of the academic year,
[44:30.220 --> 44:41.160]  and sign an agreement to allow Carleton University, which is where this took place, to allow their computing and communication services to monitor his online activity for as long as he is at the university.
[44:41.700 --> 44:43.540]  And in the end, he just said, you know what?
[44:43.540 --> 44:45.100]  I don't even want to deal with this anymore.
[44:45.100 --> 44:46.280]  I'm dropping out of school.
[44:46.780 --> 44:49.940]  And that is the result that you get when you treat people this way.
[44:50.020 --> 44:55.860]  Somebody who actually comes forward and shows you what they did, shows you where the security holes are, to be treated like a criminal in that way.
[44:56.020 --> 44:56.620]  It's obscene.
[44:57.240 --> 45:01.400]  Now, did he contact them directly first, or did he publicly expose it?
[45:01.400 --> 45:13.280]  My understanding is that he sent email to or contacted the 32 students and the university before this became public knowledge as to what exactly was going on.
[45:13.360 --> 45:14.580]  The university seems to...
[45:14.580 --> 45:18.960]  The university actually wants him to say that he lied about that, and I think that was the final straw.
[45:19.240 --> 45:23.060]  He said he didn't want to say that he lied because obviously he doesn't think he did lie.
[45:23.740 --> 45:25.800]  But I've seen this reaction before.
[45:25.800 --> 45:29.940]  That's why I have a really easy time believing that that's exactly how it played out.
[45:30.240 --> 45:47.520]  When you tell people who are particularly sensitive about their jobs, such as security in a computer facility, and if exposing a security hole is going to mean that they're not doing as much as they should have been doing to keep the place secure, they're going to come after you.
[45:47.620 --> 45:49.100]  They're going to try to make you the scapegoat.
[45:49.220 --> 45:54.480]  They're going to try and make you pick up most of the burden for what has to be done to fix this.
[45:54.620 --> 45:55.680]  They'll make you pay for security.
[45:55.680 --> 45:56.980]  They'll make you pay for new computers.
[45:57.180 --> 46:02.280]  They'll make you pay for the salaries of the people that have to work to fix the problem that you didn't create in the first place.
[46:02.960 --> 46:05.380]  So that's the kind of reaction that I've seen so many times.
[46:05.380 --> 46:19.680]  And it's not hard to imagine that that's exactly what happened here, but it's a real shame because you wind up losing students, you wind up not having a secure system, and you wind up basically proving that might makes right, and that just isn't right.
[46:19.740 --> 46:23.480]  And the thing is that you're going after the people who are trying to do the right thing, right?
[46:23.580 --> 46:26.300]  I mean, anybody could have discovered this and then used it to their advantage.
[46:26.480 --> 46:27.340]  Of course, yeah.
[46:27.500 --> 46:31.760]  What he could have gotten away with is amazing, but instead he was exposing it.
[46:32.400 --> 46:39.620]  And I think the same thing holds true for the Sarah Palin case, in that somebody exposed this and said, look, this is what's going on.
[46:41.340 --> 46:43.600]  And this has always been a problem.
[46:43.600 --> 46:51.180]  Since the beginning of the show, this has always been a problem where people, the whistleblowers, are confused with the problem itself.
[46:51.340 --> 46:54.180]  They confuse the message with the messenger and all that kind of thing.
[46:54.380 --> 46:56.500]  So the moral of the story is never be helpful.
[46:57.920 --> 47:00.880]  Unfortunately, a lot of people take it that way, and that's sad.
[47:01.020 --> 47:01.500]  That's sad.
[47:01.500 --> 47:06.560]  People say, I'm never going to do anything nice because I'm just going to get screwed, and it shouldn't be the way it is.
[47:07.040 --> 47:10.660]  Hey, speaking of getting screwed, I don't want to screw our listeners out of talking about the show.
[47:10.840 --> 47:11.780]  Are there any calling in?
[47:11.980 --> 47:14.600]  There was one, but we seem to have lost that person.
[47:15.120 --> 47:15.480]  One?
[47:16.480 --> 47:17.200]  I don't know.
[47:17.380 --> 47:19.340]  People don't like to pick up the phone and dial.
[47:20.220 --> 47:22.640]  It's really complicated for some of our listeners.
[47:23.460 --> 47:26.100]  212-209-2900 is the studio line.
[47:26.920 --> 47:30.940]  And then you'll call us, and we'll see some green lights, and we'll press the appropriate buttons.
[47:31.520 --> 47:37.460]  While we're waiting for the callers, Emmanuel, can you tell us the highlight over the years, your favorite part, or the favorite thing that happened on the show?
[47:38.360 --> 47:39.280]  Favorite thing that happened?
[47:39.400 --> 47:43.060]  Well, you know, one of the favorite things, obviously, is when we found out that Bernie was going to be freed.
[47:43.680 --> 47:55.740]  And after we had spent so many weeks talking about what he was going through in prison, and to just find out that, wow, it's going to be over, it's going to end, that was a real breath of fresh air.
[47:55.840 --> 47:58.620]  Other favorite moments, obviously, the Hope shows.
[47:58.620 --> 48:07.100]  We have a couple dozen people in the studio from all around the world, just meeting up and talking about what they're going to be doing at the conference, or what they just did at the conference.
[48:08.260 --> 48:18.600]  All kinds of other events where just something happens, where you talk to somebody and have a really good interview, or just learn something really cool, or play with things on the air.
[48:18.940 --> 48:24.320]  I can't really pin it down to one favorite moment, but the show itself has just been a blast from the beginning.
[48:25.100 --> 48:27.440]  Was there ever a time you thought you were going to get kicked off the air?
[48:27.440 --> 48:29.760]  Yeah, actually, interesting, you should say that.
[48:30.460 --> 48:42.560]  In January of 2001, right after what we call the coup at the radio station, that's where the management was changed, locks were put on the door, a bunch of people were kicked off the air and banned from the facilities.
[48:43.000 --> 48:54.040]  And it was basically seen as a step towards, I guess, streamlining the radio station and the network, and making it, I guess, more palatable to the mainstream.
[48:54.040 --> 48:59.880]  I'm not really sure exactly where it would have gone had it continued, but one thing was for sure, it wasn't good for free speech.
[49:00.320 --> 49:09.880]  And what happened was there was a meeting of the advisory board that they were trying to have at the radio station, like they have many, many times over the years.
[49:09.880 --> 49:19.520]  And the response of the new management to the listener advisory board actually attempting to show up and have a meeting was to call the police.
[49:19.720 --> 49:23.160]  And this all happened right during the radio program.
[49:23.160 --> 49:28.520]  We were broadcasting off the hook, and it was unfolding in front of us.
[49:28.560 --> 49:40.440]  I saw cops in the radio station, and I went against orders, which were to not talk about anything other than what we're supposed to talk about on our shows, and talked about what was going on in front of my eyes.
[49:40.700 --> 49:46.820]  And that had a galvanizing effect, because listeners heard that, and they started coming to the radio station, and it caused this whole big thing.
[49:47.440 --> 49:53.520]  And the management was not very happy with me at the time for doing that, but, you know, it's news.
[49:53.520 --> 49:58.060]  And when news happens in front of you, no matter what it is, whether it's something you agree with or not, you talk about it.
[49:58.080 --> 49:58.600]  You report it.
[49:58.680 --> 50:02.720]  We did that with Amy Goodman at the WTO in November of 1999.
[50:03.540 --> 50:07.680]  We heard the tear gas being shot as we spoke to her live on the air.
[50:08.300 --> 50:13.380]  Things happen, and we have a responsibility to bring those things to people when they happen in front of us.
[50:14.900 --> 50:18.740]  All right, I think we have some people we'd like to thank, and then we'd like to take some phone calls.
[50:19.160 --> 50:19.260]  Okay.
[50:19.860 --> 50:23.120]  We'll start by thanking Jeff, who's from Calcoun, New York.
[50:24.200 --> 50:25.580]  Charles from Spring Valley.
[50:27.020 --> 50:29.080]  Paul from Yorkville, New York.
[50:29.540 --> 50:32.040]  I'd also like to thank Julianne from Lindbrook, New York.
[50:32.300 --> 50:32.620]  All right.
[50:33.320 --> 50:37.360]  And let's press this button, and hello, you're on the air.
[50:37.680 --> 50:41.480]  No, that's not a person, but I bet that's a person.
[50:41.480 --> 50:42.400]  Hello, you're on the air.
[50:43.380 --> 50:43.780]  Hi.
[50:44.380 --> 50:45.740]  Yeah, my name is Pete.
[50:45.880 --> 50:46.840]  I'm calling from MADD, UK.
[50:47.580 --> 50:50.580]  Basically, it's about to say, no, what you guys are doing is absolutely fantastic.
[50:52.040 --> 50:58.860]  Listen, obviously, whenever I can, but over here, we've got absolutely nothing that compares to what you guys are doing there.
[51:00.880 --> 51:02.580]  There's no free speech radio.
[51:02.700 --> 51:04.160]  There's no even community radio.
[51:04.340 --> 51:05.440]  It's commercial or nothing.
[51:06.320 --> 51:14.060]  And, you know, if there's anyone else from Blighty listening, you know, take advantage of the pound, because it's going to go further than the dollar, and I guess the money.
[51:14.500 --> 51:17.320]  You know, it's interesting that you should bring that up, being in the UK.
[51:18.160 --> 51:24.220]  You would think that Internet radio would somehow replace regular radio, but it doesn't.
[51:25.100 --> 51:28.760]  There's nothing like turning on a radio and actually hearing a radio station.
[51:29.220 --> 51:29.740]  Absolutely.
[51:29.740 --> 51:41.220]  Yeah, and I don't know if a lot of people of the current generation understand that, understand why it's important to keep a radio station, not just have a podcast, but to actually have a radio station.
[51:41.760 --> 51:42.160]  Yeah.
[51:42.460 --> 51:48.540]  I mean, I live in the South Cheshire area in the north of England, and, I mean, right now it's a very deprived area.
[51:48.540 --> 52:04.580]  Yeah, and there was a small setup trying to get local community radio on the go, but they were way-sided by the government, and the Ofcom, the communications regulator, wouldn't have done the license, because there was no commercial demand.
[52:06.260 --> 52:07.960]  Yeah, pretty much sums it up.
[52:08.960 --> 52:09.280]  All right.
[52:09.380 --> 52:11.000]  Hey, thanks for your, thanks for the thoughts.
[52:11.140 --> 52:11.540]  Cheers, thanks.
[52:12.060 --> 52:12.680]  Thanks for listening.
[52:12.680 --> 52:18.600]  All right, let's try, let's not try that, because it just disappeared.
[52:18.860 --> 52:23.900]  But if you would like to not disappear, the number 212-209-2900.
[52:23.940 --> 52:29.160]  If you'd like to help the station not disappear, the number 212-209-2950.
[52:29.860 --> 52:32.000]  And we have this call.
[52:32.140 --> 52:32.940]  Hello, you're on the air.
[52:33.360 --> 52:33.980]  Oh, hi.
[52:35.060 --> 52:37.060]  If you could turn down your radio, please.
[52:37.240 --> 52:38.140]  I'm sorry, I'm in a wheelchair.
[52:38.340 --> 52:39.360]  I'm doing it right now.
[52:39.860 --> 52:40.220]  Okay.
[52:40.820 --> 52:42.460]  Maybe not use a speakerphone, too, that would be nice.
[52:42.680 --> 52:44.080]  How is it now?
[52:44.860 --> 52:47.620]  We have many different kinds of phone sounds over the years.
[52:47.800 --> 52:48.220]  This is one of them.
[52:48.360 --> 52:49.840]  Hey, how is it now?
[52:50.840 --> 52:53.380]  Well, it sounds like you're talking through an echo chamber.
[52:53.520 --> 52:54.420]  How is it now?
[52:54.580 --> 52:55.140]  Oh, much better.
[52:55.500 --> 52:55.840]  Sorry.
[52:56.180 --> 52:56.940]  Takes me a while.
[52:57.980 --> 52:59.020]  Well, welcome to the show.
[52:59.120 --> 52:59.680]  What's on your mind?
[52:59.820 --> 53:00.500]  Oh, thanks.
[53:00.980 --> 53:03.120]  Is it okay to talk about cell phones?
[53:03.880 --> 53:06.880]  Well, we're talking about the history of off the hook right now.
[53:06.980 --> 53:08.140]  Can you tell us when you started listening?
[53:08.760 --> 53:10.400]  Oh, a few minutes ago.
[53:10.400 --> 53:11.240]  I apologize.
[53:12.220 --> 53:13.420]  So you're one of the newer listeners.
[53:13.580 --> 53:17.440]  I listen to you guys a lot, but I just started listening a few minutes ago.
[53:18.160 --> 53:25.060]  Well, it's our 20th anniversary, and we're asking people to tell us when they first heard of off the hook and what made them start listening.
[53:25.960 --> 53:41.040]  Okay, I started listening, I think it was last winter, and I don't know, I'm not, I'm sort of naive about all this technology, so I just found it interesting.
[53:41.920 --> 53:50.860]  Well, don't confuse naivete with simply not being up on the latest models of things, because let me tell you, a lot of people who are up on the latest models are the most naive people out there.
[53:54.680 --> 54:02.760]  What we try to do with the show, though, is make it as accessible as possible so people with absolutely no technical knowledge whatsoever will still get something out of it.
[54:02.760 --> 54:06.280]  So it sounds like you might think you qualify as that.
[54:06.960 --> 54:16.940]  I do, but you know what, I have this, as long as I have you guys on the phone, can I ask you one thing about cell phones?
[54:17.780 --> 54:19.560]  One, do we have time for one question?
[54:19.700 --> 54:20.020]  Sure.
[54:20.300 --> 54:20.580]  Okay.
[54:21.620 --> 54:24.700]  I started getting this weird illness.
[54:24.720 --> 54:29.920]  I was a teacher in Harlem, and I moved into Manhattan in the mid-90s.
[54:30.560 --> 54:35.040]  And I started telling doctors that I was burning.
[54:35.340 --> 54:45.880]  You know, like, I felt like I was burning inside, and my head was burning, and, you know, my skin was burning, and no one knew what it was, and I didn't know anything about the cell phones.
[54:45.920 --> 54:47.160]  I never really had one.
[54:47.160 --> 54:48.840]  I didn't know anything about it.
[54:50.300 --> 54:56.060]  I think we know as much as you do about what the possible health effects are on cell phones.
[54:56.060 --> 54:59.420]  And that's the scary thing, is that so few people know anything about that.
[54:59.780 --> 55:00.700]  Oh, it's horrible.
[55:01.220 --> 55:06.020]  You might want to consider one of the health shows on the station, which air, I think, at noon every day.
[55:06.320 --> 55:06.760]  Okay.
[55:06.760 --> 55:13.220]  And ask them their opinions on that, because they'd be much better qualified to at least theorize on what could be going on.
[55:13.320 --> 55:13.580]  All right.
[55:13.580 --> 55:23.420]  I was just wondering if you guys knew if any of this protective gear stuff that people sell, if it could do anything, if it could help you.
[55:23.420 --> 55:28.300]  I think usually those are intended... I don't know if they work, but they're usually put on the actual device.
[55:28.440 --> 55:32.400]  So if you're not using a cell phone, I don't think it's going to be much help.
[55:32.420 --> 55:33.060]  Oh, okay.
[55:33.360 --> 55:33.780]  All right.
[55:33.860 --> 55:38.400]  So I'll call the health show, and I'll still... you know, I'm still interested.
[55:38.660 --> 55:49.440]  I'm trying to find... I'm starting to use computers for the first time in, you know, a long time, and, you know, just keep listening because I am, you know, I'm very interested in that.
[55:49.480 --> 55:52.320]  I don't seem to get really so bad from the computers.
[55:52.320 --> 55:52.980]  Yeah.
[55:53.200 --> 55:54.420]  Well, it's great to have you listening.
[55:54.420 --> 55:59.160]  It's great to have you asking questions, and we'll try our best to answer them and continue addressing them in the future.
[55:59.720 --> 56:00.080]  Okay.
[56:00.600 --> 56:00.940]  All right.
[56:01.040 --> 56:02.380]  I might have to go to Canada.
[56:02.380 --> 56:06.220]  I found a town up in British Columbia that doesn't allow the signals.
[56:06.660 --> 56:07.780]  Oh, maybe I'll check it out.
[56:07.860 --> 56:08.600]  I love Manhattan.
[56:08.600 --> 56:10.780]  I don't want to leave, but I might have to.
[56:11.680 --> 56:13.760]  I'll send you guys a postcard if I do.
[56:13.780 --> 56:14.000]  All right.
[56:14.080 --> 56:14.240]  Okay.
[56:14.300 --> 56:14.620]  Thank you.
[56:14.860 --> 56:15.080]  All right.
[56:15.200 --> 56:16.080]  Thanks for the call.
[56:17.100 --> 56:18.600]  We're about running out of time.
[56:18.740 --> 56:22.060]  Maybe we'll try and take one more call very quickly.
[56:22.800 --> 56:23.200]  Hello.
[56:23.400 --> 56:23.880]  You're on the air.
[56:24.700 --> 56:25.100]  Hello.
[56:25.340 --> 56:25.440]  Hello.
[56:25.640 --> 56:25.980]  Hi.
[56:26.020 --> 56:26.300]  Go ahead.
[56:26.540 --> 56:28.100]  Let us quickly know what's on your mind.
[56:28.380 --> 56:28.640]  Okay.
[56:29.140 --> 56:33.260]  I'm, first of all, very thankful for Off the Hook and WBAI.
[56:33.420 --> 56:37.720]  I have pledged to the show a number of times, and I feel very good about it.
[56:38.200 --> 56:39.560]  The premiums, also good.
[56:40.660 --> 56:45.340]  I just want to say hi to Emanuel, Bernier, Redhack, everyone else in the studio.
[56:46.580 --> 56:59.220]  And, I mean, you have to step away for a moment and consider, where else would you have been able to hear Kevin Mitnick, from his own mouth, telling you the story of what happened to him at the border?
[56:59.220 --> 57:13.940]  Or, there are stories of, you know, laptop seizures, or going through customs, and here was a concrete, verifiable example from someone who, you know, knows about these things and has an interesting perspective.
[57:13.940 --> 57:21.120]  And I'm going across the border in a few days, and I have a laptop, and I will not give my password to anybody, and I'm just making that statement right now.
[57:21.160 --> 57:22.780]  So, you might have an interesting radio show next week.
[57:23.340 --> 57:23.780]  All right.
[57:24.140 --> 57:24.500]  All right.
[57:24.560 --> 57:27.480]  Well, I think we're about out of time, so that'll be the last word.
[57:28.060 --> 57:32.860]  And all you people who call right as the show's ending, you have to call earlier if you want a chance to be on the air.
[57:33.220 --> 57:35.940]  Please call to support, 212-209-2950.
[57:35.940 --> 57:37.640]  Keep these unique sounds coming your way.
[57:37.760 --> 57:41.060]  And you can also always email us at othat2600.com.
[57:41.200 --> 57:41.520]  All right.
[57:41.660 --> 57:43.340]  And the Personal Computer Show is up next.
[57:43.340 --> 57:43.980]  Good night.
[59:54.960 --> 59:55.800]  Wow!
[59:56.340 --> 59:57.400]  That was something.
[59:57.640 --> 59:58.900]  That was something.
[01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:02.320]  Hey, those off-the-hook guys, man.
[01:00:02.420 --> 01:00:03.880]  They've got all the incredible music.